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Pray for Ted Haggard

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Mattie

When a minister falls, how quickly the church world responds along with the world and throws a judgment call on him. How many of us would give up on David after his incident with Bathsheba and Uriah? How many of us would have given up on people like Peter for publicly denying Jesus? or on Aaron for setting up the golden calf? Or on Samson for his lusts?

I'm not excusing the sin, but I'm simply stating that we would do well to pray for leaders when they fall rather than feel good about ourselves and join the world in judging the man and writing him off. God may not be done with him. For all we know Ted Haggard might have repented genuinely and is seeking restoration.

It's wild to think that in Hebrews 11 Samson makes it in the heroes of faith. God delights in showing mercy, even when the righteous commit the most hideous of sins. Thank God for that.

Again - am i excusing the sin? absolutely not. this never had to happen because God has promised to walk with us and give us the power over sin in the new covenant life. however, does God give up on a people when they are publicly found out? absolutely not! and thank God for that.

1 corinthians 4:5 "therefore judge nothing before the time, till the Lord comes, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the heart. Then each one's praise will come from God."

lets pray Ted Haggard takes this time to get restored. May God raise him up once again the future to be a testimony of His grace and mercy.

G
ginnyrose

Hmmm, if I recall the news reports, this sinful conduct was going on for several years..it was not one isolated incident, like David's tryst with Bathsheba so there is no comparison with David.

But I do admire the man's [apparent] willingness to step down and remove himself from his pastoral responcibilities. How many would fight with denials so they can retain their position and power? I also appreciate his wife's reaction that she is married to him for life and promises to stick with him. (I got this second hand...hope it is true.)

ginnyrose

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Mattie

so when hidden sin is exposed, is God any less forgiving than He was to David? and whether it was several months or several years, what is key is that we know that as a fact and not just because the news said so.

let's say Ted Haggard has repented of his sin and is going forward behind the scenes. in God's eyes he is as clean and righteous as you or me. sure, the media won't see it that way... but heaven sure sees it that way.

we have to be careful to pass judgments based on news reports, hearsay, or appearance instead of a righteous judgment

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dohzman

Good post, Amen! Sometimes it takes time to see integrity restored though. Forgiveness is instant, but most of the time the restoration process is very lengthly. A bishop must be blameless IN THE SIGHT OF ALL MEN. :-(

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lovegrace

Sorry brother. But his story definatly sounds like a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Ted was sorrowful for being caught. No doubt some leaders in his life told him to repent for the years he was committing those sins. He yet resisted it.

He has lost his ministry and he knows it. Read his letter.

I pray for our leaders. I pray for my pastors. But we must pray in the Spirit (not in tongues, but as HE leads).

Ted's heart has grown cold. Lack of the fear of God. It's disgusting and will take a miracle (which the God we serve IS a God of miracles) to restore his life to Jesus.

Ted's sin was like a pastor committing murder. There needs to be a time of DEEP remorse. And consequences.

Grace is great, but not when your testing God in your sin.

God gives everyone a chance to know Him, that's grace. If you trample on the blood of the cross, that's your fault and you have to make account for your actions.

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ginnyrose

One thing that seems to be ignored is that this man was imvolved in sin for a long time. Why did he not repent earlier? Was the Holy Spirit not there convicting him? Why did he resist so long? When I sin the HS convicts and makes me very uncomfortable until I do whatever He is asking me to do. Am I unusual? I think not. David and Peter were referred to in the lead post: how long did God wait until he confronted them about their sin? It was soon. And they responded appropriately by repenting.

Ted has engaged in this sin for years: he admitted he is a deceiver and a liar. We do well to accept what he has said and not impede his repentence by making excuses for him. If we recall David's sin caused Israel's enemies to blaspheme; I am not aware this kind of reaction has changed since then. Christians do well to remove a person like this from public ministry. Doing so will send a message to one and all that gross sin will not be tolorated.

Here is a link you may find informative:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/novemberweb-only/144-58.0.html

ginnyrose

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Mattie

you mentioned "it's disgustingand will take a miracle..." and also said "Ted's sin was like a pastor committing murder"

first of all - what sin is not disgusting? comparing it to murder?
Jesus said in Matthew 5 that an angry heart and calling a brother Raca is as equal as murder. rebellion is compared to witchcraft and stubborness to idolatry - all which are also "disgusting in God's eyes" leviticus does say homosexuality is an abomination but it also says unjust balances, mistreatment to neighbors and gossip is abomination. anything that is of the carnal man is emnity with God.

David hid murder and adultery for an entire year. what happend after Nathan rebuked him? It says David said "I have sinned against the Lord" and the IMMEDIATE response was "The Lord has forgiven you" Does the Lord clean us and forgive us after a week of fasting, regret, and meditation? no that's legalistic.

don't get me wrong. there is a season to think over what one has done after hiding such sin. there needs to be a season to be set aside for that. but that has nothing to do with God's forgiveness.. it simply has to do with God's restoration. If Ted has repented, He is forgiven and clean - plain and simple

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Mattie

let's remember how many times Israel hid sin from the Lord, hideous sins, and faced judgment - yet God raised them up again.

look at Manesseh who killed children and set up paganism in Israel. sure he faced a chastening, but when he cried out to God he was not only shown mercy but in the coming years was made king again!!! the geneology of Jesus includes Manasseh.

His ways are higher

T
tubedoggie01

The tragedy is the moral decline in the church, even amongst the pastorate. The events as they happened with in Pastor Ted’s ministry tragically expose an epidemic currently raging through the church as a whole. You make mention of the countless years Pastor Ted has kept in the dark without repentance- That is true; I also believe that we should pray For Ted Haggard; but the one thing that we’re not exposing by discussing this event is the fact that the events that took over Pastor Ted’s life, are currently taking place in the lives of the majority of pastors. I don’t believe for one second that God looks at Ted’s life or salvation any different then the pastor that is living in a lifestyle of pornography abuse. Many pastors today (still in ministry), due to the easy access of the internet, are practicing on a daily basis the very things that got Ted busted. My prayer is that those living in that life style would see Ted as an example.

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sermonindex

The events as they happened with in Pastor Ted’s ministry tragically expose an [b]epidemic currently raging through the church as a whole[/b].

Amen brother, this is a "church wide" problem and there needs to be repentance and sackcloth and ashes in our prayer meetings. This is the reason the [b]Judgement Seat of Christ[/b] is not being preached in churches because the ministers life's are a contradiction to it. We need searing preaching that will expose and uproot this type of sin. Oh for a judgement seat of christ experience in the church today! before that truly great day when ALL WILL BE EXPOSED. God keep us and purify us till that day.

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roaringlamb

What I find most interesting about this, is that others knew about his gay tendencies before this came out. It was not a simple fall into sin, and after listening to an interview with his escort, I am even more convinced that there are more men that Ted was involved with.
I wonder why it is that noone wanted to confront this man, yet an unsaved gay man says that he had to do something because this man was a hypocrite, and was influencing young people. It is a sad day when the world must rebuke the church!!
Pray for the escort Mike Jones, as he has received death threats from "christians", while others have thanke him for exposing this man. Pray that he would come to repentance, and salvation. He admits that he was raised in the United Methodist Church, so who knows what he heard, but God is able !

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death2self

It is a sad day when the world must rebuke the church!!
That's said but true.

I would encourage you to look at this article in the Washington Post last week on
[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/08/AR2006110801703.html]Haggard Begins Spiritual 'Restoration'[/url]. Is there no power in the blood of Jesus to cleanse a man or woman's heart from sin? (That's a rhetorical question but you will understand my point once you look closely at the article.)

I pray for real repentance for this man.

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sermonindex

It baffles my mind how someone could be hiding this kind of sin, yet accept a position like his was in a very powerful Christian organization... and then speak publicly as he did against the very sins he was committing. I just cant wrap my brain around that.

Everytime I teach on something that I know I struggle with, I have an inner battle between me and God that goes something like this:

"God... I cant teach this! I'm guilty!"

"My son... take the log from your eye, and then you teach my people."

In other words, many times I've been broken before God before bringing a teaching before others. I tell them "You think I'm teaching something hard? I get this message days before you do! You get the filtered version... I get the full blunt force of it from the Father!"

So how does someone like Haggard do what he did... and then condemn it in front of the entire nation with apparently no fear that he'll be exposed? Or maybe he did fear it. Can you imagine the stress that had to create for him?

Krispy

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chadster

This just came through to my e-mail. I'm sure some of you don't endorse some charismatic streams, but I believe this is a right on word from Cindy Jacobs:

God is Cleansing the Church

Many prophets today sense that the Holy Spirit is calling the church to a higher standard of holiness. After the recent national elections, Cindy Jacobs received the following prophetic word about a coming wave of purging and repentance that will begin with God's people. In the word, God exhorts us not to be discouraged about the results of the election but to sanctify ourselves, continue to pray, and trust Him to bring cleansing to the church and the nation.
As I have been in prayer about the results of the Nov. 7 midterm elections, I have felt the Lord speak a very clear word to me. It is taken from the book of Joshua. This is what the Lord said to me:

"For I am not a man that I take sides in terms of political persuasion, but rather I am the commander of the hosts of heaven. I am a righteous God, and My army cannot cross over and take the promised land without the establishment of a holy army.

“This is a time that judgment must begin at the house of God. I am shaking everything that can be shaken, but unholiness cannot overthrow unholiness.

“Do not think that your prayers are not availing in the heavens because you do not get the answers in the way you think they should be given. Your prayers are pressing out the wickedness in My people first. There is more that is going to be exposed of leaders in homosexuality and sexual wickedness. The court of heaven has been convened through your intercession, and I am shaking the church and political parties and all things that can be shaken.

“I would say to you, ' I never lose, and I have not lost this election.' Unrighteousness is now on trial and I say to you, 'Sanctify yourselves, Church, for there is a movement of the fear of the Lord about to fall on the land.' I say to you: 'This is a time of circumcision and it is painful. My sword is cutting away all hidden and secret sin.'

“Remember that I am the God who takes My people from the defeats of Ai and brings them to victory in the land. Shake off defeat and do not be discouraged, for I have a righteous remnant and a plan to defeat abortion and defeat wickedness. There is a champion with the heart of a David that I will raise up for such a time as this, once I have released my cleansing flood.

“I say: 'Stand firm, and know that retreat is not an option, for there are great stakes at hand. Rally yourselves together and do not disperse in the day of battle. Rise up with the spirit of David, and surely you will defeat the giants in the land. Loose the spirit of Zerubbabel in the land, for it is not by might, nor by power, but by the Spirit,' says the Lord of hosts, 'that I will move with a mighty revival upon this land after I have removed the filthy garments from my Joshuas’ (see Zech. 3 and 4).

“Shake off discouragement, and do not stop praying and do not think that I am not listening. Trust Me that I overcome all attacks of Satan and will raise up a righteous party who will fight for justice."

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lovegrace

was this before or after the Teg Haggard thing?

And also, when is God NOT trying to cleanse His church? ALWAYS!

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IWantAnguish

If you can't believe all that's going on in Ted Haggard's life, his immorality / deceit etc... that's because you are proud.

All of us could be much worse if it was not for the common grace of God that withheld us from falling into these same sins.

But do you really believe that ?

It's time to get down about our sins, get real with it, stop holding onto our illusion of self-righteousness, and beg Christ to cover us with His blood...

C
CJaKfOrEsT


KrispyKrittr wrote:
So how does someone like Haggard do what he did... and then condemn it in front of the entire nation with apparently no fear that he'll be exposed? Or maybe he did fear it. Can you imagine the stress that had to create for him?

I have to say that I get it, because I have been there. I must say though, Krispy this kind of thing occuring really drives home the "superiority" of a "house church" expression of worship, over the "institutional".

For these "professional types", there is so much riding on what they do, as far as needing to support their family, or whatever, that the temptation is to sweep sin under the carpet, rather than allow it to be exposed. Imagine the fear associated with that attitude, especially in light of what Haggard has been hiding. Perhaps he thought that he was only doing it "temporarily" while he sorted out his issuses, and then would come out as one with a "testimony of victory"?

I know for myself, I wrestled with pornography and masturbation, while I was in the youth ministry. In my mind, I thought that if I came out, I would have to step down, and there would be no one there for the kids. The fact is, it came to a point where I did "have" to come clean, because my behaviour began to escalate. Sadly, out of all the kids that I ministered to, around 5% are still in church.

If I'm honest, looking back, I wasn't even saved in that time, but was a mere "poster boy" for all that the system represented. I preached the hardest, prayed the hardest, had all my apologetic ducks in a row, and shared my faith regularly. I was fully convinced that the Bible was inerrant, that homosexuality, abortion, fornication, etc was sinful, and would preach against it, so that people wouldn't end up being "like me" or worse.

For myself, being in that place was a living hell. I once heard someone say that the backslider is truly a tragic figure because he has enough of [b]God in him to not enjoy sin[/b], and enough [b]sin in him to not enjoy God[/b]. I could relate to that. Psychologists would tell us that, as parents, our greatest fears are usually that our children would grow up to be like us. We end up spending most our time trying to discipline them when they do the tings that we do/did, that have been damaging to us. This is done, not realising that they can benefit from those same qualities, if they are better directed.

For myself, a similar logic applied to my ministry, in that I fought hard to stop them becoming what I was becoming, thinking that I was qualified to do so, on the basis that I was there, and knew how I got there. I also knew that they looked up to me, and wanted to emulate me, so I tried to conceal the behaviour, just in case they sought to replicate that also. My fall from grace was very dramtic, and handled secretly, at the request of my pastor.

The sad thing is, when I see some of those youth today, they look back to that time as the only period of "authentic Christianity" that they had lived, because I preached a straight message and went through the motions, like few others did. They tell me this when I tell them the tale of God's dealings with me, and how he has been slowly breaking and reforming me over the past two or three years. They tell me in the spirit of "Don't be so hard on yourself, it wasn't all that bad" and when I gently unveil the reality of what was going on, they usually go into a stunned silence, as they start to consider if their experiences with God have ever been real, also. Thankfully, the Lord has often graciously led them into reality, as a result, but sadly for some, the damage had already been done.

My other dealings in this area came just before I began coming to SermonIndex. I had just made the decision to break free from a pornograhic addiction which I had been hiding from my wife around two years. Again, I felt that to expose myself would cause more damage than help, and so I thought to myself, "What's the problem? It's no longer happening, so nobody needs to know." Again I was aware of the fact that porn is sin, and I loathed sin, so therefore I loathed myself.

After a one day relapse, my wife found out, and I was faced with the choice of lying about it, or confessing. I had actually taken pains to establish a water tight alliby, and had denied it when she confronted me with it. Thankfully I did come clean, and after nearly losing my marriage as a result of the pornography, the lies about it, and my violent reaction to her hurting behaviour over the whole thing, we did come to the point of reconciliation. Don't get me wrong, the nerves are still raw, and possibly could be forever, but the fact is, there is no doubt of our love for each other after coming through such a firey trial (for those who know about my present personal issues, they have contributed to the present situatuion, on top of a multitude of others).

It has only been over the past month or so that I have began speaking to people about this (except for to the people who knew what was going on, at the time) because I felt it important that I received no social benefit from this experience, until I knew that I was capable of allowing God to receive the glory without my touching it. I discussed it with my wife, because she had mentioned the fact that she didn't want people to know, at the time, and she encouraged me to tell. She had actually reached the point where she was concerned that I might by hiding tha fact from people, in order to hide my weaknesses from them (terrible balancing act, this life).

Two weeks ago, when I told a young man that has continually insisted upon "placing himself under my wing", the poor guy was brought face to face with his need to surrender to God, after seeing the extent of the terms that God required of my for mine. I say this not to boast, for I have nothing to boast of, because it was only by my shameful actions (which still fill me with feelings of self loathing whenever I consider them) that I could be brought to this point, because I am such a proud man, by nature.

For those who have been around here a while, you may remember that I was extremely contentious when I got here, and then suddenly I dropped off the face of the earth, so to speak, and came back a degree softer than when I left. Well this is what was going on at the time. All of my theories were being put to the test, and I came up with a big fat "F"...but that's what God was waiting for.

The point is this, while bound in pornography, I was a zealot for truth, harsh against sin, and active [b]for[/b] God. I was still "dazzling people" with the revelations that I put forth (much of which has since been proved erroneous) and my wife looked up to me, as the one in the relationship who was "spiritual". To lose this was too high a price to pay, and I was incapable of paying it willingly, in order to be set free from my sin, and so God graciously allowed me the shame of being exposed.

The whole time that I had allowed myself to participate in that sin, the shame that I felt was so intense, that it felt like I had been violated, except that I was my own assailant. This meant that any desire for revenge had to be self directed. Being both guilty and victim at the same time, forgiveness seemed impossible, because I couldn't justify forgiving myself, and yet I knew that that was the key to receiving forgiveness that I knew I didn't deserve.

Note that I am in no way justifying this behaviour. Just as the ultimate demonstration of God's love, that being the Cross, doesn't justify sin as it justifes the sinner, neither do resulting benefits justify these horrific actions, regardless of motive. I will need to endure the shame of knowing that this "amazing grace" has "saved a [b]WRETCH[/b] like me" until my dying day, and it will never allow me the luxury of thinking highly of myself. But isn't that the way it's meant to be? The point is that He can do something through me, not that I can do something for him.

I am so glad that I have been [b]reduced[/b] to a mere set of fingers behind a keyboard who can facelessly share my opinions in relative "thankless anominity". My more [b]physical component[/b] has the privilidge enduring the shame of counterfeigt converts' resistance, while attending a fellowship containing proported believers, as well as multiplied rejection at the hands of hecklers while preaching from a soap box. This misunderstanding is so much greater a compliment than all the accolades that I received as a "minister of the gospel". The ultimate irony being, that I now feel that I am one, while then I tried to be one with all my might.

He is the one who deserves [b]all[/b] the glory, and I, for one, am more than happy to let Him have what He deserves, in its entirety. If this is what I costs for Him to have it, then I'll sell all that I have to pay it (and then max out my credit cards:-)).

(Sorry for the length, I get a bit carried away sometimes)

C
Compton

Good discussions ...

I thought Ginnyrose raised a crucial question not just for Mr. Haggard, but for the Church in general:

One thing that seems to be ignored is that this man was imvolved in sin for a long time....Was the Holy Spirit not there convicting him?

Not wanting to contemplate the awful implication of this question may be what hinders true revival...are many churched people gospel-proof?

We do well to accept what he has said and not impede his repentence by making excuses for him.

Indeed. Many Christians will rush to offer him cheap human forgiveness...to offer psycological relief from the rocky soil-plowing cut of repentence that must be felt. How long do we make the Lord wait while we 'forgive' the never-ending money grubbing, carousing in broad daylight, purposeful and systematic efforts to decieve, rivers of adultery, and boastful trampling of where the sheep must eat?

Because the church is generally unrepentent and irreverant to God, all that many defeated Christians can offer one another is quick forgiveness...not out of divine love but of an unspoken social contract with one another to remain accepting of 'reasonable" quotas. It is this institutionalized indifference to the Lord's heart, perfumed with sentimental fiat grace, that will become our judgement.

So perhaps the reason many of us 'forgive' Ted Haggard is because we know he is us. While the desire to be even-handed is commendable it avoids the deeper, more important, and eternally significant question...the one that Ginnyrose implied. "Why doesn't sin bother those who claim to walk with Christ? I ask this without haughty resentment, but as one who has indeed made that claim... with awful contradiction.

It is not Ted Haggard that astonishes me...but my own capacity for self-deception. In all this I continue to remain pursuaded that revival will not be the simple ingredient of 'excitement' added to our present churches...but a completely new (or old) confrontation with the Gospel that causes false converts to see Christ.

"My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.
Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.""

Blessings,

MC

(Edit: Thanks so much Clarkforest...while I was posting this, your testimony amplified and exceeded much more then I could say. Amazing clarity...Blessings and grace brother.)

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lovegrace

I believe Zac Poonen as long as many other men said 'It's hard to fall when you on your face'.

M
Mattie

Read the Word of God with the lenses of the cross of Christ. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

We can forget that Jesus came into the world FULL of grace AND truth. Sometimes we are so zealous on textual truth that we miss the life and grace of Jesus Christ that saves the sinner and RESTORES THE BACKSLIDER.

Galatians 6:1 "If ANY MAN is caught in a trespass, YOU who are spiritual should restore that man with a spirit of gentleness, considering yourselves lest yu also be tempted."

then v.3 says "If anyone thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he is DECEIVED."

Ted Haggard's fall is not only exposing sin already taking place in the church, it is going to expose proudful people to who feel superior than he does.

The cross is humility, humility not only before a godless sinner but before an apostate church. We must take heed lest we fall

C
Compton

It's hard to fall when you on your face'.
That's a great quote lovegrace.

Like Mattie indicated, many deficits in the character of the body are being brough to light in dramatic ways. Ted Haggard is a thermostat telling us about the American Church.

One aspect of this 'scandal' that bears emphasizing is the isolation of the American saint. This is another way Ted Haggard symbolizes the church. Like most Christians he interacted momentarily and spurriously with other believers in very controlled programed environments. Just like natural families, American church familes come and go to and from the house at will, eating quickly, talking briefly, and rarely knowing one another. (Perhaps home fellowships are an exception...)

I think our independence is related to our lukewarmness...Quoting Art Katz qoting Shakespeare...

Conscience doth make cowards of us all."

We know what honesty and transparency will cost us.

Perhaps one of the dynamics the Lord will bring into our churches is real interdependency...no more self-reliance spiritually, emotionally, and economically. In exchange for our independence we find new abiding in the love of Christ for one another...on a level that would make our present churches blush. Imagine the wonders that God could do among a people who share not just doctrine and politics, but real things.

Sanctify yourselves: for tomorrow the Lord will do wonders among you

MC

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searchin

great points...as for the comparison with David & Bethsheba.
you don't have an affair, find out you are pregnant and send the husband of to war after trying to get him to sleep with his wife to conceal the sin and then have him killed overnight! some time went by with david too...all the while he continued his role as king.
and moses killed an egyptian before he became the great deliverer of God's people.
i had lunch with several pastors a few years ago and they discussed similiar prominent ministries that had fallen into sin and publicly repented. one pastor said that this certain minister was, to him, like king Saul. who had sinned and God rejected. the first thing i asked was, "why saul...why not David!" the answer i believe was his unwillingness to forgive this pastor.
the only difference in Saul and David was the heart of repentance. all have sinned...we should hold ministers to a high standard of holiness for the sake of the church. but they are still human still warring the same fight that paul faced in Romans chapter 7.
the real issue is when one repents does the pride of our heart dissallow us to forgive.
the great preacher Paul said it best..."when a brother is caught up in a fault you who are spiritual are to restore such a one in the spirit of meekness considering you're ownselves lest ye also be tempted."(paraphrased)

C
crsschk

Aaron ...

"thankless anominity"

Recognizing the quotes, thankless no, not by any stretch of the imagination. What a tremendous accounting (for sheer lack of a more profound word) this all is. Thank you.

C
CJaKfOrEsT


crsschk wrote:
Aaron ...

"thankless anominity"

Recognizing the quotes, thankless no...

Appreciate it Mike, but if your gonna quote me, quote me rightly...:-P


..relative "thankless anominity"..

C
CJaKfOrEsT


Compton wrote:
One aspect of this 'scandal' that bears emphasizing is the isolation of the American saint. This is another way Ted Haggard symbolizes the church. Like most Christians he interacted momentarily and spurriously with other believers in very controlled programed environments. Just like natural families, American church familes come and go to and from the house at will, eating quickly, talking briefly, and rarely knowing one another. (Perhaps home fellowships are an exception...)

I can't remember the exact quote, but Bonhoeffer said something to the effect that the problem with the church is that nobody sins, meaning that because no one will "confess their faults, one to another", everybody things that they are the only ones who are bound in sin. There is a preaching compilation, that incorporates Paris Reidhead's preaching, called [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=6567]Every body needs to do nursery[/url] where a lady says something to the effect of how she's tired of all these "great men" who leave out the blood, sweat and tears that were required of them to get to where they are, as if they just popped out of the clouds one day, ready to go.

Ever consider that the Apostle Paul would have been relatively unknown except by reputation amongst believers. He would never have advertised, and wasn't afraid to lower himself to the role of a lowly tent maker, after preaching that epic "Mars Hill" sermon. Today's preachers would have made sure the whole event was recorded and made sure everybody from Athens to Corinth had a copy, with a story attached as to how he "tricked" the epicurean and stoic philosophers to invite you to the Areopagus.

Not Paul, he resolved to know nothing amongst them but Christ and him crucified, speaking with great fear and trembling. Imagine someone like Billy Graham coming into town as such a pathetic specimen of grace.

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sermonindex

Aaron... brother... what can I say. Thank you for your candid response. Your words made me think of areas of my life that are not as they should be. None of us have it all together, thats for sure. I think your post speaks volumns about all of us. The so-called "secret sin". Show me a Christian who doesnt have one, and I'll show you someone who has already gone home to be with Jesus.

God disciplines His children... I get disciplined quite frequently. Guess that means I'm in the family! Obviously you are too. Good to have a brother like you!

Krispy

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roadsign

A blessed thread!


I have come to believe that the mighty don’t fall alone. They have a host of enablers who play their role. I admit, in my own idolatrous desire for self-righteousness and people approval, I have inadvertently been part of the problem. Here’s an example:

Some years ago, I was in charge of a worship service. The pulpit needed to be removed to make room for a youth drama. Of course, I believed that I needed the pastor’s permission to do so. However he was not available, being elsewhere praying for the service. Time was running out, and so I had his beloved “sacred desk” removed - without permission!

When the pastor got up to preach, he discovered a lowly music stand in front of him. He began his message by expressing his obvious discomfort, saying, “Where did my pulpit go, I feel so exposed!” Suddenly a flash of prophetic revelation hit me. I just knew that those words were loaded with deeper meaning. And sure enough within weeks the sky fell in, and he was shown the back door.

When later, I recalled that day, sitting there in the front pew feeling ashamed for being the “apparent” cause of his discomfort, it struck me: Why, I wasn’t called to be his savior and absolve his sins by taking his shame onto myself!

That was the beginning of a long process of confession for me. I had been an enabler for years - guarding against the exposure of hidden sin in order to avoid the possibility of being blamed and accused of being a trouble maker. (Spiritual leaders who are hiding sin have an amazing way of deflecting shame onto those who may be aware that something is not right.)

I share this story to emphasize my belief that the “big” sexual sins are not the biggest problems, but merely symptoms of the ongoing outworkings within the entire system, including doctrine that is built on the Sandy Land. And as long as we unwittingly allow ourselves to be used to prop up a sick system, ignoring the pride within it, we are really keeping sinners away from the freeing and forgiving power of Christ. It is, in essence, anti-Christ.

That is the price we pay for wanting the security of religion, wanting its heroes, and wanting the approval and praises of those who pull the strings.

Diane

S
searchin

ANOTHER THOUGHT IS THE "MEN OF GOD" HE MUST HAVE ASSOCIATED WITH DAY IN AND DAY OUT...WHERE WAS THE DISCERNMENT IN THSES CHURCH LEADERS.
OR WERE THEY YES MEN POLITICALLY MOTIVATED

L
lovegrace

Searchin, I think you comment was out of line and completly judgemental. Your trying to take the place of God and make perfect justice. God did what He did. Let it be. Move on and continue your life in an ever increasing worship to Him.

C
CJaKfOrEsT


searchin wrote:
ANOTHER THOUGHT IS THE "MEN OF GOD" HE MUST HAVE ASSOCIATED WITH DAY IN AND DAY OUT...WHERE WAS THE DISCERNMENT IN THSES CHURCH LEADERS.
OR WERE THEY YES MEN POLITICALLY MOTIVATED

Make friend with the Cross, searching. It's really what you are searching for.

PS - Typing in caps is universally recognised as YELLING on the interent. Can you keep it down, I have a headache;-).

C
CJaKfOrEsT


KrispyKrittr wrote:
God disciplines His children... I get disciplined quite frequently. Guess that means I'm in the family! Obviously you are too. Good to have a brother like you!

Right back at ya K'. :-) Is there any other point to the Christian walk, but that Christ can bring "many sons to glory"?

Preaching that points out faults is not repentance preaching, as much as preaching that creates an enviroment where "godly sorrow" is the only logical outcome. I remember listening to a Paris Reidhead sermon (can't remember which one) that ended abuptly with the words, "Come on sinner. Come home." Oh, how I wanted to weep the day that I heard those words....

S
searchin

new to the world of computers...sorry for the sreamin'...i had no idea!
thanx

S
searchin

(in response to Lovegrace's admonishment)"searchin, I think you comment was out of line and completly judgemental. Your trying to take the place of God and make perfect justice. God did what He did. Let it be. Move on and continue your life in an ever increasing worship to Him."

(in response let me humbly say)
I apolagize for that. i certainly do not condemn or judge any one. actually i previously wrote the folowing....
i had lunch with several pastors a few years ago and they discussed similiar prominent ministries that had fallen into sin and publicly repented. one pastor said that this certain minister was, to him, like king Saul. who had sinned and God rejected. the first thing i asked was, "why saul...why not David!" the answer i believe was his unwillingness to forgive this pastor.
the only difference in Saul and David was the heart of repentance. all have sinned...we should hold ministers to a high standard of holiness for the sake of the church. but they are still human still warring the same fight that paul faced in Romans chapter 7.
the real issue is when one repents does the pride of our heart dissallow us to forgive.
the great preacher Paul said it best..."when a brother is caught up in a fault you who are spiritual are to restore such a one in the spirit of meekness considering you're ownselves lest ye also be tempted."(paraphrased)

(i am sorry for coming across that way....i pray for grace with the words i use. please accept my humble apology.)
thanx and God bless.

L
lovegrace

Hmm. I thank God that there are some people willing to hear a 'rebuke'. I'm not perfect in picking things out, but submiting to each other is very biblical and I've seen that in the past 2 'rebukes' that I proposed. I praise God, soo much for that.

Searchin,

I don't feel that 'what' you said was wrong, like the orginal purpose of your statement. But HOW you said it.

May we all press unto God's perfect wisdom and grace.

S
searchin

help us all to recieve instruction....
thanx! :-)

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