The "Sinner's Prayer" ala Jonathan Edwards (must read)

Dear Saints,

The letter below is an attempt by Dr. John Gerstner, a noted Edwardian scholar, to set forth what Jonathan Edwards would have counseled a seeker to actually pray based on his own ideas. As you will notice, this prayer would be considered anti-evangelistic in contemporary circles. The church today repudiates such thoughts and would be abhorred to see it in print in any form. Contemporary ministers would never counsel someone to pray a prayer as this. But in light of the survey of Puritan teaching, up and through Edwards, this is surely what the Puritans did say, did counsel and did preach from their pulpits. The doctrine of seeking is essentially gone from 21st century Christendom, but it needs to be revived. Here we see the outworking of such a doctrine practically. After reading this prayer, ask yourself: “Does this shock me?”

[b]The Seeker's Prayer[/b]

"Dear God, whom I hate with all my being precisely because you hate and threaten me with hell, I hate this punishment perhaps even more than I hate you. Or, maybe I should say that I love my comfort even more than I hate you. For that reason I am asking a favor of you. I want you to make me love you, whom I hate even when I ask this and even more because I have to ask this. I am being frank with you because I know it is no use to be otherwise. You know even better than I how much I hate you and that I love only myself. It is no use for me to pretend to be sincere. I most certainly do not love you and do not want to love you. I hate the thought of loving you but that is what I'm asking because I love myself. If you can answer this 'prayer' I guess the gift of gratitude will come with it and then I will be able to do what I would not think of doing now: thank you for making me love you whom I hate. Amen."

Unbelievable! I can't ever remember hearing about this, ever.

It seems blasphemous, but when you read it you remember that you were an enemy of the cross, and that you either love or hate God.

Truth can be so painful, and this is both.

This is a new teaching for me, even though it is definately old.

Will take time to sink in. A very long time.

God bless.

The doctrine of seeking is essentially gone from 21st century Christendom, but it needs to be revived.

This is remarkable for it's sheer shorning of pretense ... Can you hear it? "Repeat after me..."

Hi Paul,

After reading this prayer, ask yourself “Does this shock you?”

Only because it conveys a truth in a way that God would [i]never[/i] do. Though I would agree with much of the truth in the prayer I am certain God would never use such a means to reach a sinner. I am reminded illustrative story of the man whose dog starved to death because when it was time for the dog to eat the man shouted at the top of his lungs and in a most hateful manor, "GET IN HERE AND EAT DOG!! YOUR FOOD IS IN THE DISH!" The dog always went and hid himself and starved to death.

Jesus never told anyone directly that He hated them. He said in one place, [i]But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.[/i] He went out of His way to tell us to bless them that curse us and love our enemies. The 'spirit' of the prayer is not far from the disciples wanting to call down fire from heaven... [i]But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.[/i] (Luke 9:55)

Imagine in a practical sense walking up to a woman you were going to court and saying, "YOU HATE ME! YOU HATE ME DON"T YOU!" I'm married now, and I'm sure this tactic would have done nothing but drive my wife away.

Finney has an excellent sermon in which he talks about the instability of sinners. He reminds us that sinners do hate God whether they know it or not and they are quick to turn on themselves to their own destruction in hardening themselves against God. therefor, he concludes, "He that winneth souls is wise." A familar Proverb, but a powerful one. Dealing with a sinner is like trying to talk down a person who is suicidal. You have to be CAREFUL what you say. I'm pretty sure the prayer is likely meant for illustrative purposes, but we need [u]not[/u] take truthes we know about sinners and rub their noses in them. (ed) Because it would certainly anger them and anger is your enemy in winning souls.

Finney:

[i]If possible, where you wish to converse with a man on the subject of salvation, take him when he is in a good temper. If you find him out of humor, very probably he will get angry and abuse you. Better let him alone for that time, or you will be likely to quench the Spirit. It is possible you may be able to talk in such a way as to cool his temper, but it is not likely. The truth is, men hate God, and though their hatred may be dormant, it is easily excited, and if you bring God fully before their minds when they are already excited with anger, it will be so much the easier to arouse their enmity to open violence.[/i]

God Bless,

-Robert

I hear you Robert, but notice not once in this prayer do you read "God, I know you hate me. I know you hate me. Therefore I am praying this prayer, because I know you hate me." You see, instead, the immortal truth that the sinner hates God and will not come into light. You'll have to produce some hefty scriptural evidence to proport a contrary view, as well as evidence that Jesus, when he preached, never implied it. Edwards was not a hate preacher, nor do I see in this prayer a perversion of God's grace. This is a "seeker's" prayer, built upon the type of theology, when illuminated by the Holy Spirit, which has fostered earth-quaking revival in the past. Why doen't the Holy spirit prick hearts today in such ways with our "please eat this good food, O my precious dog" theology? Not meant to stir contention with you, but post a challenge back at you.

God bless you brother!

This is a "seeker's" prayer, and the type of theology, when illuminated by the Holy Spirit, fosters true revival.

I understand. There is no doubt that sinners hate God. Yet the underlying spirit of it all is one of contempt and disdain and I see it and wreaks with the wrath of man in speaking on behalf of God. This is perhaps the greatest challenge of repentence preachers- to preach pure wheat without the chaff of their own anger and resentment. Man always wants to add his 2 cents into things and we have to be very careful. Rejection fosters resentment and the tendency is to step up the rhetoric. this is what Luther did when the Jews would not listen.

God Bless,

-Robert

Paul, I love the prayer… no, I mean I hate it… no, really I love it…..

As I pray the words, it rings true. It sweeps away the surface stuff, and exposes the root. I feel it gripping at the core of my heart, underneath all the layers and layers of “fig leaves” – all that with which I cover myself so that I can hide my hatred towards God. Underneath it all, I can see that really, I don’t want God nearly as much as I think I do.

Hate is a strong word, but in the light of God’s requirements, it is most appropriate.

I am reminded of the verse, “Unless you hate your mother, father…. “ I think that hate here is not so much about loathing, as it is about preference. We must hate all that is in the world, even our loved ones, in order to love God purely. In other words: We must not prefer anything or anyone more than God. To the extent that God is not our first love, we hate him. We want something else – maybe his blessings, but not him, maybe even revival.. but not him (!) We hate God!

I admit, underneath my passion for the righteous life is another inner force at work: I crave much more than God himself. I do not love him with ALL my heart, ALL my soul, ALL my mind, ALL my strength. I know it. And I know it because God keeps in exposing my rival loves –like he did with Abraham when he asked him to sacrifice his son.

Those times that I get angry when my rival loves are ripped away from me, really I am angry with God for not letting me keep me what I want. I stomp like a spoilt child. “God, How dare you! Why did you let that happen!!”

I think I will put this prayer on my desktop and pray it every day! There is something intensely purging about it. I believe that this degree of raw honesty is the path to true intimacy with God.

By the way, this same idea, of hating God, is well-articulated by a modern day writer, Dan Allender, in his book, ‘Bold Love’. Perhaps, later, I may submit a quote from that.

(Just a personal opinion, Paul: I might have entitled this post: “Getting our hatred out of the closet”).

Diane

Dear Robert,

With deep love, may I propose that you have witnessed some terrible experiences with men who have abused this type of teaching? I have assumed that Edwards, when counselling such, would be filled with the Spirit and these true words would go out with illumination and accomplish God's pupose by pricking consciences without anger or ill-spirited contention or lack of charity or perverted, unchristlike motives. I believe these men's hearts were right with God when they put forth this type of theology, and that's why it was driven home so profoundly. I truly feel there is nothing extra-biblical about this "prayer" except were it prayed in a wrong spirit!

Brother Paul

Man always wants to add his 2 cents into things and we have to be very careful.

Good point Robert. Recall something you made mention of quite some time back ... Amounted to "A word in due season", knowing when and where to bring what is necessary for the moment. Would think this would be similar, depending on the person, circumstances ... 'audience' if you will.

Even my own day of reckoning had it's battle of "Yes\
o"; "Yes, I desire to know You, to give up everything ... No, I still love my sin". The epitome of a definition ... "I am not ready... yet". "I repent" "I am a liar" "I love You" "I ...;

Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Hi Paul,

I truly feel there is nothing extra-biblical about this "prayer" except were it prayed in a wrong spirit!

Yes. I have enjoyed Edwards writings also and am sure he would never have anyone repeat this prayer. I don't discount the whole truth of it, I am just trying to say the there is a point when sinners are asked to do well beyong what God has revealed in scripture. There may be young preachers that would take up this prayer and use it in the open air.

I have read it through several times now and have even read it to a brother who is steeped in scripture. No person in their right mind would talk to God like that (in our opinion). Could you say this to God face to face? "Dear God whom I hate with all my being because you hate and threaten me with hell, I hate this punishment even more than I hate you?" Actually, the brother said 'blasphemy' but that was a bit stronger than I would go. He felt it wreaked of arrogance towards God- as a sinner would not so brazenly speak to God in this way.

The way we come to love God is through the revelation of His goodness and mercy. This is why we offer our lives. It is the 'reasonable service' of Romans 12:1. I just think we need to be careful about this. It's OK for us to appreciate the truth of how we are before God, but I think we need to be careful how we bring it out. I could not imagine praying a prayer like this personally. It is entirely too strong. In that I mean it has be distilled from many truths that when removed from their context make for a very caustic prayer.

God Bless,

-Robert

Having pondered this prayer, where in scripture has anyone ever prayed it?

I can't think of one instance in the bible where someone, in prayer, says they hate God, especially when repenting?

The publican/tax collector prayed 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner', an admission of his own condition before God.

Whether it is Jonathan Edwards or whoever, they are not above scripture.

Just would like some scriptual reference to this assumption.

Yes, the sinner hates God.

Jesus says, if you love Me, keep My commandments.
Again He says, in John 15v23, He who hates Me hates My Father also.

I'll accept that, but I need to know where it says we are to tell God we hate Him.

Thanks.

God bless.

Dear God, whom I hate with all my being precisely because you hate and threaten me with hell, I hate this punishment perhaps even more than I hate you.

Perhaps this line is the most difficult. But, as I think of it, I suspect that we argue with God's justice without realizing it. Maybe organized religion flourishes for just that purpose: to defy God's justice by creating a path that dulls the hatred, and sets up it's own righteousness.

I know that I sometimes find myself at odds with God on this point - hell is so extreme! - and so many are headed in the direction - blinded, lost.... . And it seems that God isn't doing anything about it. Grrrrrar...

Diane

Yes, this shocks me. This is the doctrine of total depravity run amok.

The writer claims Edwards would have counseled someone to pray this way. Edwards was a prolific writer, is there anything at all that he wrote that is anything like this?

In Christ,

Ron

Perhaps if it were rephrased something like this.
Oh God whom I hate because I want to be my own ruler, and god. Yet Thou in mercy have shown me the wickedness of my ways, and the justice of the hell I am headed to. Would you in mercy and because of Christ apply His blood to my sin, pardon the crimes I have committed against Thee and Thee alone. May I receive Thy Spirit of adoption that I would no longer be a child of Satan, and self, and a friend of the world. But rather now by grace a child of the very God I have offended time without end. Take this mind, soul, and spirit which I have robbed you of all my days apart from Thee. I lay down my desire to be my own god, and surrender to Thy ways, and Thy will.

Hi RoaringLamb,

Perhaps if it were rephrased something like this.

I'm not one for repeated prayers, but I think I can handle this one. :-)

I agree with you. A man that has a real encounter with Christ may be without words for a moment, but he definately won't have to be told what to say.
I just wanted to bring a different slant to the discussion ;-)

Some of this brought to mind;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8555&forum=35#68997]Last Words of Famous People[/url]

Wow! A lot of great responses!

I guess this went over everyone's head, including my own!

It wasn't until I got home from work today that I saw how this "prayer" lays bare the true state of unrepentant man in his phoney quest for God. In fact, this prayer is quite fascinating, if you take the time to read it carefully and ponder on what is implied; it is the subconscious breathings of truth by someone who is seeking God for the wrong motives, someone whose heart has yet to be "pricked". It is sarcastically profound! Of course, I could never see myself offering a prayer like this to an unbeliever (nor imagine Edwards counseling someone with these exact words), for the prayer is merely satirical. But the accusation of blasphemy has come up from someone who is steeped in scripture. So, let's take a look at a few sections of this "shocking" prayer and see how blasphemous it really is:

In this prayer, I see the inner principles of the unrepentant sinner (for notice that 'sin' is not at all mentioned, nor forgiveness, nor repentance) seeking God to avoid hell. In the prayer, a voice is given to the natural state of wicked man importuning the God he hates. This prayer was never meant to be spoken verbatim, nor could it be. It is merely a conveyance of the [i]de facto[/i] state of the sinner, written out ala Edwardian theology. In it, the inner truths of the state of the sinner are spoken as if directly to God. This is merely the essence of man's unredeemed being speaking the uncloaked truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth to God, and laying it all bare, as it were.

Now, is it blasphemous that men in spiritual darkness hate the light of Christ, loathe the thought of coming to God to ask forgiveness (which, by the way, is never an issue in this prayer), and that this sinner, if he could, is merely exposing his true affections to God by means of honest confession? Separated and blinded from the truth of God by sin, and threatened with the eternal punishment of hell, sinners cannot truly know God, and so they abhor what they think they know, for if they truly knew God they would love Him. It is only through selfish motives that a false seeker would be justified by the words of this Edwardian "exposure". In fact, Charles Finney has written extensively on this topic, and has gone into some very deep waters in his amazing reasoning. Comparatively, this mock "prayer" only scratches the surface on the motives, intentions, and inner workings of man in this condition. At the same time, this prayer is astonishingly knowledgeable (with more knowledge than unregenerate man could ever have) in the admission that even the ability to love God must come from God.

I want you to make me love you, whom I hate.

I want you to make me love you? This, to me, is unrepentant man wanting God to "make him love" so as to escape judgment. I know from experience that the notion is quite feasible (nay, delightful) in man's mind to "love" God without admitting guilt and abandoning sin. False converts harboring unquickened spirits tread this roadway. Throughout this entire prayer, notice there is not one account of sorrow over sin. There is no trace of an "awakened" heart. Just a cold request. Indeed, when a spirit truly comes under Holy Ghost conviction and is quickened into the New Birth, all the needed prayer and words and tears and brokeness just come and flow naturally from the deep unto the Deep.

It is no use for me to pretend to be sincere.

He even admits that he is not sincere! Friends, this is an ingenious satrical prayer! Can't you see it? It is 100% biblical, yet 100% fake. It discloses the true state of selfish, sinful man, blinded by self-righteousness yet unwilling to suffer enternal damnation. So, he begrudgingly appeals to the Judge without a guilty plea. Does this process sound familiar? It should, because every Sunday throughout America truckloads of unquickened, false-seeking men and women are verbalizing words that are clashing with the hidden, non-verbal truth of their actual state of being.

I really hope no one took this prayer as an actual model for honest conviction. However, I don't believe this exposure is blasphemous, unbiblical or unreasonable. Rather, I see these truths squelched when multitudes today seek God for selfish purposes.

Any thoughts? :-)

Brother Paul

This prayer was never meant to be spoken verbatim, nor could it be.

Think that was the first intimation I picked up on as well brother.

In it, the inner truths of the state of the sinner are spoken [b]as if[/b] directly to God.

Regret the mention of the "repeat after me" statement earlier, not at all fond of either the normal 'leading someone in the sinner's prayer' even if it was couched this way, same as Robert made mention of. Had first thought of the 'famous last word's' in relation to the almost defiant to the end mentality that are mentioned within ...

Maybe all I am trying to say is that it struck me as the reasoning process inside one's head, of one coming to grips with his or her own thought's and being honest about it.

Hi Paul,

But the accusation of blasphemy has come up from someone who is steeped in scripture. So, let's take a look at a few sections of this "shocking" prayer and see how blasphemous it really is:

I think this would be a good discussion as it plumbs the depths of many truths. At the end of the day it is really just a discussion on Total Depravity (As InTheLight mentioned earlier). I wish to first say that the brother who felt the prayer was blasphemous took the prayer as one actually made to God and not as an unconscious feeling. If a person had actually spoken to God in this way it is possible they had blasphemed because of the tone in which God is being addressed. It comes off as very disrespectful. God discerns the thoughts and intents of the hearts, but by our words we shall be justified or condemned. One may believe their neighbor to be a fool, but how dangerous would it be to actually call him one? So in fairness, the response may have been different to say that these were conscious or unconscious and unarticulated feelings and attitudes rather than an actual ‘seekers prayer.’

At the same time, this prayer is astonishingly knowledgeable (with more knowledge than unregenerate man could ever have) in the admission that even the ability to love God must come from God.

I cannot agree with this as it stands because God has commanded men who are unregenerate to love Him. This is probably more due to my position as an Arminian. In both Calvinism and Arminianism there are extremes. If I take Arminianism too far I make man able to do what only God can do- be 100% sinless in his/her unregenerate state (Pelagianism). If I take Calvinism to its final conclusion I make man to be a devil. I can also make a case for it making God to be a devil, as Wesley once said, if some of the tenants are true then God is the father of lies. So, one makes man to be as God and the other makes God and man to be as devils. So there has to be a biblical balance.

Now, is it blasphemous that men in spiritual darkness hate the light of Christ, loathe the thought of coming to God to ask forgiveness (which, by the way, is never an issue in this prayer), and that this sinner, if he could, is merely exposing his true affections to God by means of honest confession?

Not all men hate the light. This saying would not be equally true of all men. There are those who are “haters of God”, but these are those of a reprobate mind. Romans 1 comes to mind:

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. (Romans 1)

Notice that this list is radically more extreme than the list of the sins of the flesh that is given in Galatians 5. If the person(s) spoken of in Romans 1 is the person ‘seeking’ (which would likely be impossible if they were actually given over to a reprobate mind; not that they could not respond to God, but the would not) and praying the prayer (or thinking this subconsciously) that would be one thing; but I think it is a category mistake to place all men in this Romans 1 passage.

All men are sinners, but not all the unregenerate refuse to respond rightly to the light. Total depravity asserts that man is totally at enmity with God and totally incapable of doing anything ‘good’. I cannot agree with this. Though ‘the Sin’ has touched the totality of man’s being, is has not depraved him in such a sense that he is a devil or as a reprobate in the Roman’s 1 sense. Man’s thoughts and imaginations are not [u]only[/u] evil continually as those who had fallen before the flood. If it were so none would be saved today. I think it is important also to see that there are varying degrees of ‘enmity’ with God. David was a man after God’s own heart. Abel by faith offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain. If all men’s enmity with God were equal then the story of Cain and Abel has no meaning nor do the Psalms.

Enough for now…

God Bless,

-Robert

Throughout this entire prayer, notice there is not one account of sorrow over sin. There is no trace of an "awakened" heart. Just a cold request.

This is true. I think we also need to consider what actually 'repentance' means. One word means to 'change the mind'. As the Holy Spirit weighs upon the mind bringing to bear the truth of the word they see themselves in that light. This can create a 'WOE is me' effect. They might not immediately 'love' God, but they may immediately change their mind and recognize the goodness and mercy of God. As they appreciate what God has done for them they will of their own selves love God. Not that the Holy Spirit does not have a role in this; but there is a very real sense in which man is commanded to love God and it is his part to do so. God could make us love Him surely; but He has chosen to show us how He loved us and offer us the opportunity to love Him in return. We love Him because He first loved us. The one who is forgiven of much the same 'loveth much', etc. I cannot wait for God to 'cause' me to love Him in some inner working type sense. He has commanded me to love Him and given me every reason in the universe to do so. The Holy Spirit does have a role in this, but my point is it is equally my responsibility to love God and if He has commanded it I 'can' and I 'must' love Him.

So, he begrudgingly appeals to the Judge without a guilty plea. Does this process sound familiar? It should, because every Sunday throughout America truckloads of unquickened, false-seeking men and women are verbalizing words that are clashing with the hidden, non-verbal truth of their actual state of being.

This is a very well written truth Paul, I think. Not to the same extent for all as some actually do get saved. But for the pretenders it is probably very true. The evidence is in the changed life. The emphasis of the seekers prayer is spot on also I think as people really don't often 'want' God- they only want freedom from the flames. But this is not true of all. Some may actually say as Reidhead, "Lord I'm going to love you and serve you and obey you even if I go to hell at the end of the road simply because you are worthy to be loved and obeyed and served and I'm not trying to make a deal with you." Some do not come for the right reasons at first and they in time come again and come to realize the enormity of their sin before God.

I really hope no one took this prayer as an actual model for honest conviction. However, I don't believe this exposure is blasphemous, unbiblical or unreasonable. Rather, I see these truths squelched when multitudes today seek God for selfish purposes.

I don't want to sound too lighthearted this morning, but today I was driving and thought about how this prayer, actually prayed could bring revival. You'll find my reasoning in Acts 5. ;-) The fear of God truly may have come upon everyone! 8-)

God Bless Paul and thanks so much for the Christain Charity!

-Robert

THis is not to address the virtue of repeated prayers, the choice of Dr. G's wording, or what Dr. G implied by Puritan teaching. I simply comment on the issue of hatred towards God.

As Dr. G pointed out, that possibility is revolting to our modern evangelical mindset. We have come to believe that once we ask Jesus into our hearts, we are quite righteous from then on – or should be in general. How dare anyone suggest otherwise.

Our culture pretends. Even in church you learn that it is better to pretend that you have it right than to be honest about NOT having it right. I remember, after a crisis, sharing with my spiritual leaders about my anger towards God. Without even waiting to hear how I resolved it, I got a stern sermon, complete with scriptures, on the evils of being angry at God. Clearly, negative feelings were a “no-no”, and so was my confession of them.

And so we bury our negative emotions, underneath lovely platitudes and sweet musical ditties that essentially say, “Lord, I promise to be good all the time… I always have warm feelings for you.” .. Forget the negative confessions. And so we live a lie. This makes it extremely difficult when life hands out bad blows. People fall apart emotionally, or they throw out the Christian faith all together – because it no longer works.

I like what some of our liturgical churches do. Though they have wandered far from orthodoxy, they still print in each bulletin a “Prayer of Confession”. Of course, merely reciting this in church is fruitless. But ,still, even the suggestion that we can be rebellious, selfish, angry at God, hateful, is something that the evangelical community has lost entirely (except as a condition of the unsaved).

...trying not to "throw the baby out with the bathwater"...

Diane

I don't want to sound too lighthearted this morning, but today I was driving and thought about how this prayer, actually prayed could bring revival.

Ha! Now you're really throwing me for a spin, brother! This is great, this is what it's all about, this is why I frequent SI. This little "prayer" has some mysterious components. It is true that God brought revival through Edward's "Sinners in the Hands", a sermon that doesn't exactly align with our concept of how God does business. Can you imagine an evangelist submitting this manuscript today, in 2006, for perusal by a pastor, and telling him "Pastor, I'd like to read this sermon I wrote (not preach) tomorrow to your people. Invite everyone from your town, everyone you can get." Wow, I am only mentioning this because you brought up "revival" coming as result of this prayer being prayed seriously. And, in light of history, I can see it too, Robert.

I think this famous message isn't any less shocking than this so-called "prayer". My wife read it after I left for work, and was really shocked. She even called me. "Why did you highlight this prayer?" I asked her what she thought of it. She reluctantly said that it was truthful...but, well, odd. She could never imagine praying this, and this wasn't exactly how she came to Jesus, but the truth was there, nonetheless. Well, this got me to thinking. I had felt the same way when I read it. I thought about it for most of the day yesterday - even during a funeral I did. I started to see faults not in the theology itself, but in the motive behind the supplication. When I got back to the office, I read it gain, and all the responses, and did some deep thinking. Then I saw it, and started to make some sense of it.

Some do not come for the right reasons at first and they in time come again and come to realize the enormity of their sin before God.

Yes, brother. Amen. This was me. It took about 10 years for God to bring me into the full truth. I can identify.

Thank you for your gracious replies. This was a real good experience. May God continue to bring us into a fuller knowledge of Him in perfect charity.

Brother Paul

Further background behind the shaping of this Seeker's Prayer, found on the web:

The Seeker's Prayer by Dr. John Gerstner.

In volume 3 of The Rational Biblical Theology of Jonathan Edwards John Gerstner, an Edwardian scholar, sets forth Edwards’ doctrine of “seeking.” It is a very helpful section in understanding Jonathan Edwards’ puritan roots in evangelism.

Gerstner surveys the doctrine of “seeking” systematically through Edwards’ writings and sermons, even his unpublished sermons that are still not available to the public.

In the midst of such a survey, Gerstner created a hypothetical letter for an unregenerate seeker to pray based upon what Edwards was thinking as a result of this compilation of information.

The following is that letter. Just in case you are unclear on this, the letter below is an attempt to set forth what Jonathan Edwards would have counseled a seeker to actually pray based on his own ideas, though we do not have anything in his writings practically as such......

Diane

Hi Diane,

Gerstner surveys the doctrine of “seeking” systematically through Edwards’ writings and sermons, [u]even his unpublished sermons that are still not available to the public.[/u]

Thanks for sharing this. I was thinking along these lines yesterday and wondered, "what if someone were to get hold of all the writings I have ever done and tried to compile what I would actually counsel a sinner" as 99% are not in the public domain. Writings that I had written that I have still in database that were from my first studies. Probably well over 1000 pages. Sometimes we 'tweak' our doctrines as more light comes. I have done this and don't hold exactly the views I have held in the past. I think this is why Wesley and others 'amended' their works from time to time though they never really changed much.

I think it was Ron Bailey who said once that a instructor gave him some wise counsel as a student, "don't be quick to go to print." (paraphrased) I think this is good wisdom. Time in the hand of the Holy Spirit has a way of allowing us to see things differently. I am not saying I am fickle, I am just saying I am open to change when more light shows the need.

Works that are 'not available to the public' may well ought to remain as such. Sometimes papers exist that we just keep around for keep sake. Like a diary of where we have stood as believers on certain issues. Going back and reading them years later gives an idea how we are moving along. Some materials I have written I may someday go over and fine tune; but for now I am still much in learning. I would guard them now like a bangee to keep them 'out of the public' as the ideas expressed may well run counter to what I now know to be true. Don't know if that was the case with Edwards, but it is some food for thought.

God Bless,

-Robert

Don't know if that was the case with Edwards

I do find it difficult to accept the notion that God hates the sinner. I wonder what is meant in this case ?that he cannot look at our sin?

One time an atheist expressed thoughts that were very similar to this prayer: "God threatens us with hell!?! What kind of a God is that!!!" Basically she expressed her hatred by pushing him right out of existance.

edit

For now, this article on Puritan thought may shed some insight:
[url=http://www.intoutreach.org/seeking.html]Seeking God[/url]
Diane

I guess I wonder in all this, if the real issue is theology. Take Edwards and take Finney, and revival happened under both. Was it the theology? Or was it God working through a man?

Not to lag behind in this thought too much, but it seems we want the recipe. What would Finney have preached? What words would Edwards have used? Let's go father back, what hook did Paul use?

I want the step by step text to follow that will allow me to be a great warrior for God without having to become the man of God that these men were.

But Paul's preaching was foolishness. God working in him brought spiritual birth for others.

It seems the person of Christ in us is the only thing that will bring revival. Dead orthodoxy is dead orthodoxy whether the doctrine is sound or not. (Saul had studied Moses well and was ready to defend the doctrine vigorously before the Damascus road.)

But even though I know this myself, it seems I want to fall back on second hand theology too often. I want to rest on other men's 'knowledge of God.' It's much easier to have someone else do it.

But that doesn't seem to be the pattern that births revival.

Iron sharpens iron, yes, and there is much to be gained by studying the classics. But only so much as it drives a man to God. If I don't seek the person that is the God, I'll seek to revive in others what is dead in me. Spotting phonies is a sport this day and age, and even if my words are true, hypocrisy can make my words fall on deaf ears.

But God can do wonders. He can set a man on fire for him. He will pour out fresh water and life to those who ask him. New wine if we are willing to be a new wineskin? (Never really got that metaphor entirely, but it sounds good right now.)

Anyway, revival can be at hand. It starts with God in us. God is speaking fresh words for those around you. His person has a message for them. The words may be the very words that the old revivalists used, but coming now from a life that has been revived they ring true. That's the revival I want to live.

Will you be open to His leading today? Will I? Yes God, I'm thirsty, pour out the rain.

I've lurked around here long enough to know that this (perhaps my heart's cry more so that the words I try to express it with) underlines where most of you are coming from already. But sometimes a guy has to type it up anyway.

Blessings,
-- mark

God has commanded men who are unregenerate to love Him.

Interesting, brother. But how is this possible without God first allowing man to love Him? Could Pharoah love God with a divinely-hardened heart? Those reprobates whom God allowed to believe a lie, can they just "snap out of the lie" and at will suddenly love Him? If we can at will love God, we can at will bring about our own salvations through repentance. God commands men everywhere to [i]repent[/i], and yet repentance is God-granted. I must therefore stand my ground in this area and humbly challenge your protest. If we can love God simply by acknowledging that He loved us first, then why are so few saved? Is it because we don't choose to acknowledge this? Don't you think more men would acknowledge it if they could? I mean, men have no problem acknowledging their family's love; what's the hang up with Jesus' love which is infinitely greater and manifest to all the world? Men are able to give up vices and reform themselves at the behest of loved ones. Why won't they relinquish sin at the behest of the Loved One? Though it's true that men love their wives and kids with natural affections, they nonetheless see the cross of Christ - the symbol of God's love - as utter foolishness. As offensive! And no wonder - God has deliberately caused it to be a stumbling block!

The fact that God has given man a million and one reasons to love Jesus Christ and come to him still isn't enough, I believe, without the Spirit's intervention. I believe man is inoperably blind, and can do no spiritual good or warrant nothing in terms of coming to Christ without God's interest in him first. God saw David as a man after his own heart, and Abel's sacrifice as better than Cain's, but I don't think it's wise to attribute this favor from works being birthed in isolation from God's grace. You start going down this road, brother, and it's a slippery, treacherous slope! Where then does the filthy rag willpower to do good end and the perfecting grace of God begin? You'll need to answer this question by scripture, Robert, if I am to see your point as something more than moral conjecture. I can put a million and one red apples on a table and tell a blind man they're all green and he'll believe me. God's love (the true, Holy Ghost illuminated, transforming revelation) is impossible and incomprehensible without the Spirit's revelation. Looking up at the Milky Way will not bring about an awareness of God's redemptive love, nor will an uninspired view of the cross shatter the blinders put on man's spiritual eye. Instead, it will bring either revulsion, confusion, or a false understanding and bogus dependancy. I say this with boldness because I have seen the effects of man trying to love or understand God by his own accord without the miracle of spirit-regeration.

Now, if it's just a case of acknowledgement - as you suppose - who then ordains the good season when men can acknowledge and accept? I say God does. Can you refute this scripturally? I purposely haven't given scripture to emphasize my point mainly because there is just so many verses, and I would not treat you - my elder and wiser brother - with such implied disrespect (for I know you are familiar with all of them). Yet the more I read scripture the more I discover that man is helplessly and hoplessly dead, blinded by Satan, and his spirit must be supernaturally quickened, with man's only independant function being able to choose that which God has already put within his grasp. Anything beyond this, I feel, diminishes the absolute sovereignity of God and places man in a position where he plays a graceless role in the redemptive process. Since all the unregenerate live in a realm of separated, spiritual darkness (I hope you won't argue that), blinded and manipulated by principalities yielding more authority than fallen man, an even greater authority than that of the blinding principality must come forth to restore sight and liberate the prisoner from spiritual darkness. Only God can give sight to the blind; man cannot will himself to see into this dimension, for his spirit-eye has been put out by sin (think of Ulysses and the Cyclopes) and he has no authority or ability to "see" God or love a God he is dead to. He must be quickened by grace, and given the option to exercise the measure of faith already given unto to him.

I believe the prevalence of Jesus' sight restoration miracles in the New Testament were illustrations in the physical of what he would continue to do in the spiritual throughout the ages. By grace, through faith. And any measure of faith a man might have is also accredited to God. I lovingly propose that men cannot get saved without God first drawing them to Christ. And unregenerate man cannot love or accept or comprehend (in the spiritual) that which he intrinsically hates and rejects and is blinded to without God first sovereignly opening his heart and revealing His redemptive love by the Spirit. Now, after God opens the heart, I believe the opportunity is there to embrace or reject the light of truth. In this sense, I do agree with you. But I believe that God, through grace, gives men "windows" of opportunity to repent, where pardon and light are freely offered, and men are left to "choose life or death" - though the occasion to choose, in itself, is a sovereign work of grace. What would you call this type of theology?

Calminianism? 8-)

Brother, this is why I preach! It's always so mysterious when the Spirit begins brooding over and the Word begins spreading light into the hearts and minds of dead men. Who can tell if God will allow a person to repent and respond to this amazing love through offered pardon? I firmly believe that if men could love God at will, no person in their right mind would opt to perish, unless they were sent there by default, as dying suddenly or whatever. This offered pardon, this free escape from hell would be gobbled up wholesale after a lifetime of luxuriating in sinful pleasures. People would love God on their deathbeds. But is this reality? No! The reality is that men and women, knowing they are going to hell, still curse God as they sink down. Esau sought repentance with tears and couldn't find it.

Dear brother, I am prepared to go scripture by scripture with you, hoping that, if I am wrong and you are right, God will open my eyes to a fuller and more proper understanding of his ways by the tutelage of the Holy Spirit.

Wishing you peace and grace,

Paul

Though I would agree with much of the truth in the prayer I am certain God would never use such a means to reach a sinner.

I see value in Spirit-enlightened personal prayer that acknowledges the on-going fleshly resistance to God, and the continual need for deeper crucifixion. (I’m talking about a Christian). Let’s admit: the flesh is at enmity with God.

However, as I examine this prayer in its entirety, not just some smatterings of it, I admit that its overall sentiment is over the edge.

I just read [url=http://members.aol.com/jonathanedw/Justice.html] The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners[/url] in which Edwards presents a remarkably thorough sweep through the dark crevices of the heart, exposing the sinner’s rebellion towards to God. He explains why God is under no obligation to save him. I conclude that Edwards would never have led a sinner to pray this:

I want you to make me love you ….If you can answer this 'prayer' I guess the gift of gratitude will come with it

The “prayer”, in my opinion, is a caricature of Edward’s sermon. I would not have expected this of Dr. Gerstner. I had assumed that he was an outstanding scholar, but then how would I know? To me he spoke and wrote with such sophisticated academic-eze that I found it difficult to understanding him. Still, I am surprised that he would write a prayer in the simplistic literary style that he used, never mind the content. So much for summarizing the writings of Edwards!

There may be young preachers that would take up this prayer and use it in the open air.

Diane

Any thoughts

Edit: adding ( i don't see this prayer as a prayer but an art work of conviction )

hmmm, Edwards, I consider him one of those writers who give me the goose bumps, I remember reading him a long time ago, and had to put it down because he was so intense, so fiery, so touching, i knew that, if i kept on reading his writings, i would want to become a preacher myself, since I don't quite believe in female public preaching, i had better just not get myself all wound up by Edward's "madness" ( the very fervent and godly kind, in my view) to stir my emotions up too much for the Lord..if you can understand what i'm trying to say, though men like the apostle Paul and even Francis Schaeffer already can fire me up towards serving our Lord quite sufficiently :)

Paul, I can assure you this, if this were a prayer to be prayed, Pharisees can't pray this prayer, false believers won't know how pray this prayer, intellectuals are unable to pray this prayer, shamefully, I think I appreciate this prayer because what i see in this prayer are mostly of God's immeasurable longsuffering, God's unfathomable mercy, God's utmost beautiful holiness, and God's own Blood sacrifice despite of the sick sinners.. yeah, weird, I don't see man in this prayer as perhaps I ought to.

I suspect that Edwards must be in certain ways similar to men like Augustine, Luther..that if anything,it seems like these men did KNOW what depravity (total or not) , the evilness of evil is, and the sinfulness of sin is..the like

I also think that these men would make fantastic artists, perhaps they already were, in every sense, yes, I admire them, they were so so intense and yet seemed spiritually balanced (by God naturally)at the same time.

As for the rest, I don't have any theological or biblical viewpoints in regard to this prayer to offer, because, my response to this "prayer" is simply this, GRATITUDE, gratitude, there is not ever going to be enough gratitude to bring to a GOD who sacrificed sooo violently despite man's utter wickedness, yeah, and I must include here, it had to be because of CHRIST, His Son , whom and why GOD was so willing..

As always Paul, you have indeed ministered to many of us on SI heartily, I appreciate this piece as well, since my mind is still lingering on the "death" thread, may GOD bless you and your wife..