They sold their souls for Rock N' Roll

Here's an interesting website (note sure if its been posted here before?), outlining all the major music stars and their love for Satan.

View to the end to see Madonna quote Rev. 21, during one of her "dance acts."

http://goodfight.org/goodfight.org/tvad.wmv

You can also watch hours of it on google video.

[url=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=sold+their+souls+for+rock+and+roll&so=0]http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=sold+their+souls+for+rock+and+roll&so=0[/url]

as a kid (in the latye 80's) i remember a preacher from florida who came to our youth group to talk about tje "evils of rock music" it was effective. all these years later i still remember it.
he pounted out all the rock stars who have commited suicide or have died young as a result of drugs and alchahol.
he also went through the current top-40 and, using the titles only, showed us that the lyrics and songs were ungodly and dangerouse.
he didn't use the popular "back masking" thing but he did mention that the songs played forward were bad enough!
they are preaching another Gospel....paul said let them be cursed...and do not be partakers of another man's evil!

Umm, how can I put this, nicely?

Is it ok if I decline the offer to watch?

Thank you, I knew you'd understand.

God bless.

How 'bout Niko McBain testifying that he's also a born-again Christian, and continues to tour with Iron Maiden as their drummer?
I read this a only a few months back in a canada.com interview. Honestly, I didn't know what to think. I can't comprehend headbangin' to 'The Number Of The Beast' and mortifying my fleshly members at the same time.
God bless you with Himself,
richie

Find it interesting that often those less qualified to speak about what they do not know go right on ahead anyway. There has been any number of discussions around here on music, the evils thereof, secular\\"Christian" but to narrow it to one section of thought towards this particular posting ... Hyperbole, sensationalism, Christian superstition are words that come to mind. It is the equivalent of supermarket tabloid for believers, we just love to buy up this stuff, put our denouncing twist on it and send it back out into the world. Then wonder at why they want nothing to do with 'our' Jesus...

This is fodder for the lower nature and the un- contemplative mind, might as well throw it into the ring with our political sound bites and commentary on all the outward manifested 'evils' of the world.

all these musicians WANT hell....

That is an arbitrary statement. Do they really? I once was absorbed with music, heavy metal, hard rock, classical rock, southern rock, old school, new school, guitar virtuoso's ... Eat, drink, sleep, bleed ... and practice, (guitar licks that is). Prior to that as a drummer, prior to that in school 'honor band's', orchestra and the like.

I never wanted hell, 'rebellion' wasn't some kind of anarchistic trait, it was loud, thrilling, creative, powerful. Some of it was certainly 'dark' but a great deal of it was far more honest and forthcoming than what we now find amongst those who ought to be the epitome of those words. [i]That[/i] I find most troubling. Secondly is those who have such an uneducated opinion about matters as to jump on the bandwagon of denouncing by hearsay. And quite often it is poorly researched 'ministers' who get the small thinking believers all up in a uproar by these commentaries completely missing what the Lord taught about the heart, what the enemy of our souls is really up to, making the believer gullible and entangled in all sorts of outward 'manifestations' to challenge the definition. What gets missed in this way of judging is that the moral man, can be as far away from the kingdom of God as the head-banging metalhead, in fact would go as far to say that the latter may be closer in possibility than the former. The 'good' man has little to concern himself with, the rebel has the nag of conscience somewhere along the line, but this is just as general of a statement as anything else, rebels are heart bred no matter what their outward 'clothing'.

This is no defense of anything on this realm if that is what the assumption might be. It is to put the question to us, to believers and the things we pontificate on with scant understanding.
It's weary, it's weak and it's low. It's far too often completely missing the point. What is it that pulls and tugs believers into the sensational, the controversial, the gossipy and giving short shift to pride, bitterness, outburst's of anger, where sin really resides and the sins that Jesus came to save men from, in and out of?

The last thing I would want to get into here is another comparison with what constitutes CCM vs secular music. Tastes and preferences and all the associated baggage. This marriage with the world and attempts at 'Christianizing civilization' to borrow Chambers line...

Folks, if you want to understand what the enemy is up to you are going to have to start looking past these kinds of diversions, [i]an angel of light[/i] disguised is hardly as interested in making such a great showing as we might suppose. What the world does is what the world does and it is quite ridiculous to be taking out subsections of it and putting our uneducated Christian spin on it. Need I go into the 'of course' of the matters? Would hope not, but I do understand this particular realm very, very well and to simplify it the way it is often done with this sort of sensational over speak is discouraging because it is just dishonest.

To put it crassly, I was saved through rock and roll if you can take that for it's worth. All throughout the muddiness, God was somewhere in the thought's and mysteriously after my soul through all those years. Don't be so naive' to think that these are all so easily categorized as some loud minister who doesn't have the foggiest idea of what he is speaking about states. We can go on and on decrying the debauchery and drunkenness, the sex and drugs [i]and[/i] rock n' roll, all of it is there in it's entanglements just as much as the spiritual pride of the Christian who thanks God for not being [i]like them[/i] even if the words never escape the lips, the motivations that are thought hidden betray the heart and even the heathen are not fooled by any of it. Sin doesn't have it's own hierarchy as we suppose, it's own stereotypes as the Christian would like to neatly classify them, it is the worlds disease, the creature and the creation all subject to the destruction.

We need, the church needs to grow up out of this meager, beggarly way of thinking. I think our 'witness' suffers greatly from it because we have been now conditioned so much to think that our witness is only something that we speak of, not something that we are of a truth, that can be seen and understood as an evidence, something we in fact [i]are[/i]. Not what we speak out of the sides of our mouth, not something we aspire to, not known for making comment on everything under the sun with scant knowledge.

Some unfinished thought ...

Recall an old message I once heard from Chip Ingram about this sort of "Christian" voyeurism. He was talking about watching some program on T.V. and complaining, "I can't [i]believe[/i] they are showing this sort of thing on T.V! I mean, [i]look at this![/i] Can you believe it?"
(All the while refusing to change the channel)

The point was how we can justify ourselves with the decrying while subtly entertaining ourselves with the spurious notion that we are above it all. Worse, if we were more honest about it that we are getting the best of 'both world's' peering backwards into the sin that we say we so despise, when the reality is we may love it just as much as anyone else.

God is not mocked.

Crsschk:
With reference to your post, it is intresting to note that Christians do catergorise sin.

I know this changes the whole mode of the thread, but we do mock God.

God took the lives of Ananias and Sapphria for lying to Him via Peter.

I guess most Christians think little of lying or being deceitful or cheating, but it is sin, God sees it, and we are judged by Him for it.

Still, this thread is about music and celebs, so I'll end it here.

God bless.

Hi Ritchie,

I can't comprehend headbangin' to 'The Number Of The Beast' and mortifying my fleshly members at the same time.

A bit short on time here but wanted to note something about this. About the time this album came out a brother who was instrumental in where I find myself these days was hounding me with tract's and whatnot. Actually that was my perspective, he often was bringing conviction without really even trying, making me think and consider ... We would often have a great deal of discussions on music, my take more from a musicians standpoint and his ... well, not far from the hyperbole that I have just been attempting to expose. The timing was interesting and think we both were learning from each other, he wasn't overbearing on the matter but he really through me for a loop with all the talk of 'this world', whatever could he mean? I didn't get it.
There was a great struggle regardless, you see I still 'believed in God' even throughout those years, I had as of yet come to [i]know[/i] Him in what has become the ever growing and vast contemplation that is now becoming the recognition that I know next to nothing .. ;-)

What I would often do in my mind in those days was to try and justify things to ease my conscience I suppose, while still trying to find God in it ... it was an honest, muddied confusion. Strange that this very album was something that probably began to more integrate the thought's of judgment, of eternity. Later recall reading that the motivation for the whole conceptual idea's in the album sprung from a dream that the bassist .... Harris? I believe it is, (been awhile) wrote out of. For all the imagery of the album cover, for all the controversy that caused the 'Fundy's' to come unglued about at the time ... Recall none that actually took the time to attempt to understand it all, only found the fodder they were looking for and the ammunition to denounce ... Anyway, the lyrics below.

Niko McBain, was delighted to hear about his testimony, where he is in his particular walk, his commitment or level of understanding ...

Is this really any of our business when we get right down to it? What I mean is, are we to take the quick clippings, the little that is known and make a case one way or the other? Isn't the larger question, [i]why[/i] are we so interested in attempting to figure these things out? Not trying to be pointed or accusatory, just food for thought.

[i]Woe to you Oh Earth and Sea
for the Devil sends the beast with wrath
because he knows the time is short
Let him who hath understanding
reckon the number of the beast
for it is a human number
its number is six hundred and sixty six.

I left alone my mind was blank
I needed time to think to get the memories from my mind

What did I see can I believe that what I saw
that night was real and not just fantasy

Just what I saw in my old dreams were they
reflections of my warped mind staring back at me

Cuz' in my dreams it's always there the evil face that twists my mind
and brings me to despair

The night was black was no use holding back
Cuz' I just had to see was someone watching me
In the mist dark figures move and twist
was all this for real or just some kind of hell
666 the Number of the Beast
Hell and fire was spawned to be released

Torches blazed and sacred chants were phrased
as they start to cry hands held to the sky
In the night the fires are burning bright
the ritual has begun Satan's work is done
666 the Number of the Beast
Sacrifice is going on tonight

This can't go on I must inform the law
Can this still be real or just some crazy dream
but I feel drawn towards the chanting hordes
they seem to mesmerize...can't avoid their eyes
666 the Number of the Beast
666 the one for you and me

I'm coming back I will return
And I'll possess your body and I'll make you burn
I have the fire I have the force
I have the power to make my evil take its course[/i]

Most think they are Satanic

So, Krispy, are you saying that Maiden is not "Satanic"? I was very much into them in the 80's, had all their albums, Eddie "The trooper" painted on the back of my denim, hair down to the middle of my back. I've been to their concerts, seen Powerslave, etc. I can tell you first hand that Iron Maiden is not Christian, nor propogates the holiness of Jesus Christ. Many of their followers are are hardline drug-users, and Steve Harris and Bruce Dickenson have [i]never[/i] comunicated the gospel from the stage. Their songs are of vain subjects i.e. primitive man's quest for fire, Greek and Egyptian mythological references, Biblical verses taken out of context, secular, godless poetry. Their album covers are steeped in demonic symbolisms. When you look at Satanic "Eddie" rising from the dead (depicted on Live From the Dead) are you reminded of the holiness of Christ's resurrection? When you see "Eddie" holding a bloody hatchet on a dark, grafitti-ridden street corner (the cover for "Killers"), are you overwhelmed with a sense of the fruit of the Spirit - peace, joy, charity, long-suffering? C'mon, man. What are you trying to say in your post?

Jesus said that if you are not gathering, you are scattering. Scattering. "Eddie" scatters, and it doesn't matter how "intelligent" the lyrics are. I am reminded on the back of the "Piece of Mind" album of a photo of the band sitting at a medieval table with forks and knives, preparing to eat a fresh, human brain. Friend, is such a concept from God or from Satan? Let's speak the plain truth in love: Iron Maiden (the name alone refers to a Spanish inquisitional torture-device), and the whole concept of this band was birthed in the womb of a wicked spirit. Just like Rush (also very intelligent lyrics), King Crimson, Led Zeppelin, and a myriad of other "metal" and hard-rock bands of those times.

Iron Maiden is Satanic. Do they need to sing "I love Satan!" to be labeled Satanic? Would it surprise you if I said the Beatles were Satanic too? Or Air Supply or Barry Manilow or The Police? I believe that anything not born of God in Christ and bringing people [i]to[/i] the knowledge of Christ in all holiness and purity, it is of the godless spirit of the world, of the devil, and Satan's cloaked purpose is to use it to scatter. To isolate the true knowledge of God from the minds of men. Can you show me otherwise?

If so, I challenge you (and please don't do this - you will offend the purity of SI) to post the pictures of each one of Iron Maiden's albums on a separate thread, and post all the albums' song lyrics beneath those pictures. Then write captions to propose that this band is not Satanic, but is birthed in the Spirit of God.

I am sorry to challenge you like this, brother, but I got on and read your post...and couldn't believe a Spirit-filled believer would actually argue that Iron Maiden [i]was not[/i] of Satan - and defend them by their lyrics! No, the people reading this must hear the truth in love. And if anyone chooses, they can do an image search and
see for themselves the grotesque spirit behind this band.

Brother Paul

Krispy, you are mistaken. I see you speedily read my post and posted to save face. There is a spirit behind this world, friend. It is not of God. Iron Maiden is not of God. I dare you to post that Maiden is of God. If you cannot post this, then what is Iron Maiden of? Be bold - speak the truth in love.

I guess the crux here is you believe something can be of the world and not of Satan. I see this discussion heading to a point of striving. I don't want to go here with you. One of us must be wrong here.

Again, how in the world can you say these guys were not Satanically influenced when you see their album covers. How can you say there is not a wicked spirit behind the music. How can you say that [i]anything[/i] that is so blatently not of God may not be of the devil? Does one have to sacrifice virgins to qualify? See and judge for yourself, speak the truth inlove, and vehemently warn others to avoid the poison. Let's get a holy indignation to label the devil for what he is - the price of this world. He is in everything that is not of God, especially musicsuch as this. And yes, there is a demon lurking behind all this stuff, and if you can't realize this, I do pity you, brother. This stuff is precisely the reason why the church is so crippled and lame. We have a tendency to mitigate and not make a thing out to be as deadly as it really is. Instead of full-scale avoidance we rationalize and say stuff like "Well, the lyrics [i]are[/i] kinda intelligent. The music [i]does[/i] sound kinda cool and highbrow." It's not necessarily the work of devils. We shouldn't be so harsh and judgmental. Look at all the [i]good[/i] songs - songs of English history, alexander the Great, war, etc."

No, it's all useless, contaminated filth. It will distance you from God and robs unction from the Christian who listens to it. As for the unsaved, it innoculates their minds from the knowledge of God and keeps Satan's captives locked up tight. How can you not hate this stuff, and rail against it! And call it anything less than what it really is - the filth of the world, the garbage of Satan, by Satan, to accomplish the will of Satan.

Brother Paul

p.s. I'm sorry I've upset you, Krispy. I'm not looking to fight, butyoudid post amazingly fast, and your response was shallow, like a quick defense, telling me to "chill." Can you not see how than can be offensive to me? You posted no thoughtful meat at all. I'm sorry if I came across as judgmental. I repent of that. This discussion can be over, if you like, and we'll leave it at this, for both of us to digest. Pray for my wisdom; I'll pray for yours.

Wow crsschk,

your long post on the first page on this thread is by far the best post i've read in all these music discussions.
Thank you for that.

Krispy, you wrote:

here is a band that Christians are willing to label as Satanic when they werent at all.

Maybe it's me. I'm not understanding, really, I'm trying to. Can you clarify? This statement startles me. Iron Maiden most definately was and is (if they're still doing their stuff) Satanic, and the fact that they don't drink goat's blood or sacrifice virgins and wear black robes and hold chalices doesn't make them any [i]less[/i] Satanic than than who they really are - in fact, it makes them even [i]more[/i] dangerous and effective by the enemy. Can you understand my confusion here?

So, please. What are you saying? I really am trying to resolve this with you, I love you and am trying really hard to accept your view point, though you say we are saying the same.

Thanks!

Brother Paul

Dear Krispy,

I think I owe you an explanation as to why I came on so strong with this topic. A few years ago I served as a youth pastor over a group of about 15 or so kids who just wouldn't give up this kind of music. It wasn't necessarily Maiden or Van Halen or whatever, it was more of the modern stuff like Vanilla Ice and Ice Cube and rap and thrashy stuff. A big reason they clung to it (after professing Christ) was the supposed "cool lyrics" of love and goodness and taking care of your own. We even went to a questions and answers retreat once where a minister got up to answer the question, "Is it okay for Christians to listen to secular rock?" This guy said, basically, "Sure. You just have to choose it wisely." That was the dumbest statement I've ever heard. How can you choose the devil's wares wisely? I believe [i]all[/i] his contaminated wares must be disposed of, and replaced by Christ-honoring, anointed, sanctified music that edifies a Christian's spirit in God. Well, this "minister" with one sweeping statement practically undid and brought massive confusion into an area that my group was concerned with. He told the kids it was okay to listen to Elvis and doo-wap because the music was full of "love and lovely things to think about". From there, I was faced with the kids now asking, "Well, Metallica has this song about love too...and so does this other band, and this one too...Tupac sings this song about his momma." Oh, it was very sad. Compromise just throws the door wide open. A little leaven leavens the entire lump.

The reason your post frustrated me was the extolling of Maiden's lyrics. It reminded me of this compromised minister that gave the children the [i]wrong[/i] answer, and consequently caused more damage to their little minds than he'll ever know - until he discovers it at the judgment seat. I've known you for a few months, I've read your posts. I know not all of us have similiar convictions. But a trend I've noticed (not necessarily with you) is that the church tends to go lightly on stuff like this. And anyone who takes a staunch approach against it is usually slandered a legalist.

A terrible consequence to this is that the kids who once listened to Metallica and Slayer now listen to the same [i]spirit[/i] of the rhythm, but with "Christian" lyrics. Slayer has now become Pillar, and so the compromise is perpetuated, the music instantly baptized "Christian" at the mention of God in the lyrics. But I say that the mention of God in a band's lyrics makes the music no more Christian than secular band [i]not[/i] sacrificing goats makes them non-Satanic. Thus, I consider Iron Maiden singing about English wars just as evil and wicked as Slayer openly singing praises to Lucifer. In fact, I consider bands like Iron Maiden even [i]more[/i] dangerous than the outright-professing "Satan-worshipping" bands, as a bottle of poison without a label is more dangerous than the bottle [i]with [/i] the label, though the poison be the same.

p.s. I read your last post. I understand what you're saying - Satanic meaning "professing Satanists". The actual animal-sacrificing, adherents to the offical Church of Satan. Of course, Maiden would never admit this, and in their minds they may truly be repulsed by the thought. I don't really know of anyone that will admit to woshipping Satan, though they do. They sing his praises, they worship what he has done with the female body, with the concept of marriage - though they deny the fact, they are members of the "Synagogue of Satan" and unknowingly support the church. They tithe their lives, their talents, their intellect. in this sense, Iron Maiden is Satanic to the core. You are right that an unbeliever would never understand this! I would never attempt to tell an unbeliever this, though. The carnal man cannot understand the spiritual, it's foolishness to him.

God bless you, my brother

amen paul, to your righteos judgement on the works of satan.

yeah, a lot of christian do judge outwardly/hypocritically, but lets becareful and not mistaken from righteos judgement. it is obvious that many bands and many things in this world are under the influence of satan.

if your not following God and His ways, then you will be under the influence of satan and you follow him.

1 john 5:19
we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

most christians feel so much for the lost in a wrong way. sypathize too much for them because their in the same boat as the lost (still stuggling with sin). i think a lot of christian who are so agaist any kind of judgement and not calling sin for what it is, is because they have areas where they are struggling too and not living an overcoming life so they look down with jelousy and anger upon others who can stand confidently and boldly for the truth (i'm not directing this comment at anyone on this thread).

when we do not call sin for what it is, what happends is the lukewarm christians will take over and bring luke warmness to the rest of the body. and look at the church now! many are so ashame to stand up for the truth and love Jesus boldly that it has caused the church to suffer and be ruled by many wolves.

i ask what about jesus? christians are so worried about hurting the lost. what about hearing and seeing so many false christians lifting up Jesus name in disgrace with their sinful lifestyle? doesn't that break us when we hear and see Christ name put to shame by false brothers who lives a lifestyle filled with the world. what about jesus name being defamed?! doesn't your heart break with tremdouse pain to hear His name being defamed by false brothers and the lost?!

Did the Christian magazine come right out and say that Iron Maiden was Satanic because they "sacrifice goats and drink blood", etc. They probably thought they were Satanic just from looking at their album covers! And they would be right. I don't think that's a lie, do you? I mean, you say it was a [i]Christian[/i] magazine, and who primarily reads Christian magazines but other Christians? It's sorta like who goes to evangelistic Christian rock fests but other Christians?

But that's another topic altogether! :-)

I met a brother from another forum ( who brought me to SI ) earlier this year who has somewhat changed my view about the topic of non-traditional inspirational music. (Not for worship, personally I cannot worship with any music at all, too distracting).

Through the acquaintance of this brother's views, biblical knowledge and a honest heart reflected on his many posts, I was baffled (because I have been very intolerant with non-traditional Christian music and musicians) when I found out that this brother is a professional Blues guitarist/muscian who has written some very moving songs in expression of his faith and journey in life.

Eric Sawyer, aka Aeryck on SI,has produced some real decent Christian Blues, I think, though I was very skeptical about them at first. Brother Eric, if you are reading this, please don't be offended.

www.soundclick.com/ericsawyer
(Moderators please feel free to delete if deemed inappropriate)

Yeah, just as all else in life, food, music, art, books..one word comes to mind, and that is, [b]discretion[/b]. As Mike reminded us from Galatians, ..."God is not mocked, whatsoever one sow, that shall he also reap." That's for sure.

Wow ... Some good stuff in here saints, far too much to respond to at the moment, but Neil no issues brother, were right back into the confusion of assumptions, my own there as well adding to the confusion. If anything there was a departure to generalizations after your quote...

Think Krispy pretty well expressed things earlier and even Paul, think we are getting into definition issues here over what constitutes 'satanic', overtly or subtlety, 'on purpose' or just playing with theatrics. If anything was trying to press down into the heart of the matter ...

Big Bart,

Heyyyy - I didn't know you wrote a Christian stage hit! Wow. Would I know the name?

I'm not quite sure what your last post - in terms of my old youth group - is about. But I sensed a whole lot of grace, and I thank you for your meekness! I understand your point that as an artist, one can still be a Christian. This is certainly true! R.M. McCheyne wrote classical music and hymns, and, of course, you mentioned C.S. Lewis. Funny that whenever I think of Tolkien, I think of Lewis and whenever I think of Lewis I think of J.B. Phillips. Weird.

Anyhow. I'm still not too sure how to answer your last post! I might question you on the [i]must[/i] part of having Christians in secular media and how it relates to C.S. Lewis' greatness. I can understand the sphere of his influence extending out to his secular audience. I also think of the guitarist from Korn who got saved a few years back and made substantial headlines. I believe his salvation is genuine. When he got saved, he left the band and lost a whole bunch of fans and went in Rolling Stone magazine and spoke openly of Jesus being the only way, truth, and life. Great. He is very involved in a church and in evangelism. Praise the Lord! He's bringing forth the fruit meet of repentance.

But, you see, there's also a bunch of speculative stuff that goes on, as I'm sure you know of. Lot's of popular recording artists that claim to be born-again (and some even filled with the Spirit) but yet are involved in terrible, grevious things that bring reproach and mockery upon the church.

Whatever happened to the people like Billy Sunday and C.T. Studd, who, after getting saved, [i]left[/i] the secular arts and preached Christ and suffered shame and self-denial? Tentmaking is one thing - but being an outlet for worldy entertainment is another. C.T. Studd was like the Babe Ruth of English cricket. Billy Sunday was an incredibly gifted baseball player. These were not humble tentmaking occupations. These were extremely lucrative and worldly careers, and when Christ called them, they dropped their nets and left it all behind. The awesome thing is that God used their popularity and stardom to his purpose, but notice, they didn't [i]stay[/i] in their professions, continuing in the limelight and fame and prestige. And how could they? The gospel is despised, it's an offense, and the secular world will reject you because of it. How can one be truly saved of God and remain popular and wealthy and reap all the devil's blessings reserved for his own children?

I don't mean to sound judgmental here, but let me ask you an honest question: Would you like Johnny Cash to pray for you? Or Little Richard? Or James Brown? Or Elvis? Or Merle Haggard? Or Alice Cooper? These are all supposed professing, born-again Christians who, for one reason or another ($$$) have chosen to remain in the secular arts and project "Christ" through their medium, intermingling their religion with other popular secular and godless themes.

Personally, I can't be bothered with it. In my opinion, if you're not going to live it and take up your cross and suffer shame, then I don't want to hear you sing about it or paint it or write or even talk about it. It does nothing for me. You're better off not professing christianity at all. Better for you at the judgment, and better for the unsaved to not hear your unctionless, compromised confession that kills rather than gives life.

What do you think? Do you agree?

Blessings in Christ, my brother!

Little Paulie

In my opinion, if you're not going to live it and take up your cross and suffer shame, then I don't want to hear you sing about it or paint it or write or even talk about it. It does nothing for me. You're better off not professing christianity at all. Better for you at the judgment, and better for the unsaved to not hear your unctionless, compromised confession that kills rather than gives life.

I quite agree.

For many years while teaching ballet and directing a dance company with strictly classical and inspirational choreography, I noticed many churchians held me in lo-esteem. :) "What kind of Christians will be in the dance business." Despite how I tried to steer young female dancers to stay away from jazz and hip hop, and the young male dancers away from the gay crowd.

On the other hand, one Baptist church invited me to become their dance minister, in the name of inspiring worship!! They told me that the Holy Spirit will bring glory to God through the beautiful movement of the dancers!! (no kidding, thank God,I turned this 'nministry' down)
If you think christian music industry is big, christian dance industry is following suit. All that swaying, leaping and prancing around the cross..sigh..last I saw, a group of 'christian'ladies dancing can-can in short skirt santa outfits in one of the most prestigeous Baptist church in town during Christmas. Surely the pastors and elders were having a grand time bobbing along in their mind perhaps.

Most of my past clents claim to be Christians. They want their youth to perform 'worship' on Sundays at their churches, while take them to hip hop training somewhere else during the week, just wherever glamor is. Yeah, it's not just money, it's glamor.

In the end, I walked away from all of it. As hard as I tried to bring these youth to the Lord via the art of classical ballet,it's useless, all their parents and their children/youth want is glitz and glamor. Most of these youth, do wind up on stages of the horrid sort later in life.

Brother Paul, I know what you meant,totally, one can not have the 'best' of both worlds. Things often come in a package. We just can't scream holiness on the one hand and let loose on the other, satan does have a way with even God's children in rationalizing all sorts .

The flesh is just forever vulnerable to seduction and temptation, one can not be too cautious in safeguarding the soul and preserve it for not only the glory of Christ, but the service to God. Especially with our children.

I don't deny Christian arts overall, mostly, be they the arts, the artists and the admirers of the arts, God probably judges the fruit (i.e. the influence) of them, in relation to Christ's glory, rather than the expression of the artists, or even the heart and intent of the artists.

Sad to say, just reading all those rock and roller's names draw me back to the dark days of yester-year. Not too edifying really.

Furthermore, I strongly discourage God-loving parents to engage their children in improper dance training, from 'christian' dance schools or not.

On the other hand, one Baptist church invited me to become their dance minister, in the name of inspiring worship!! They told me that the Holy Spirit will bring glory to God through the beautiful movement of the dancers!! (no kidding, thank God,I turned this 'nministry' down)

Quick question mamaluk... are you saying that its wrong to teach dancing as a form of worship? The are so many references in the bible that talk about dancing in the presence of God.
2 Samuel6:14
David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might
I know that dancing from our heart before the lord is a expression of our gratitude and how much we love him.
David danced before the lord when the ark of God was finally brought back from the philitines.
I believe dancing is biblical and
It should be taught but in the right way.Music is a form of worship, but if the musicians are not taught to direct their passion, skill and talent to God, the essence of music in worship is lost.

kobilove,

When i first started the inspirational dance program years back, believe me, i went to the Bible and extracted all the dance related verses to promote the program, oh yeah, I listed them all. Even though i never allowed my dancers to be involved in any official worship services, I made sure these verses were printed in the performance bulletins on other venues, to God's glory ( so I tried ).

From hind sight, I think I was very wrong, because I think I used the Bible, really to promote dance or myself. I feel that even though my intention might be right, but I don't think God was glorified. Indeed, I had audience approached me, told me they were in tears because the dancing were so beautiful and so moving, but I doubted how much of that was of the flesh and emotion, rather than of a spirit of appreciation of holiness and aduration of Christ.

Worship music, dances were/are very much a part of the religious activities from days of old till the present. We see priests using temple prostitutes dancing as a form of worship in the old testament somewhere (Judges ?) Pardon me if i remembered wrong. David danced out of sheer joy and adoration to God, but that was not an organized dance performance to worshiping God.

Do I have trouble now dancing to hymnals at home when I feel joy to the Lord? No, I still do, but I don't consider that worship either. I see that as emotionally gratifying my soul towards God.

Faith in Christ, to me, is NOT a religion, and I believe that religious worship "services" is perhaps no longer part of the Apostle Paul's teachings.Regular fellowship with brethren, breaking of bread, singing praises towards God, prohesying and teaching the Word, in my view, are not worship, they are elements of fellowship and honoring Christ as an assembly.

Worship, is an individual, heart-to-God event, as in John, must be done in spirit and in truth.

No doubt, just like music, paintings, and writing, dances can be used to honor God, which I tried with ballet, probably did fairly sucessfully too, but worship? nah..

My last post was written in addressing to Paul's exhortation of "departing from evil in all forms and at all cost" (sorry brother Paul, I titled it for you like that.)

That is not to say, everyone has to agree with me. I shared my experience and testimony in light of art,in hopes to point all back to the holiness of God, please just leave it at that if possible, for whatever its' worth, as always, I dread debates and arguments, they are very tiresome for me.

The only elements in worship, must align with :

[color=0000CC]John 4:22-24

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers [b]shall[/b] worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him [b]must[/b] worship him in spirit and in truth.[/color]

Brother Paul, I appreciate your stance in these matters.

An observation by absence. Was just mulling over those words trying to elucidate something that evades me a bit still ... Recall MC making mention of it elsewhere and recall Chambers talking to it as well... mamaluk touched on it;

The flesh is just forever vulnerable to seduction and temptation, one can not be too cautious in safeguarding the soul and preserve it for not only the glory of Christ, but the service to God. Especially with our children.

Something of tweaking with the soul or soulishness may be more what is at bottom of a lot of this.

By absence I meant that though the former life was filled with all the aforementioned music, today it is non-existent. Redundant to mention again but I rarely listen to any music whatsoever and that is for very different reasons than because I 'shouldn't'. My best hunch at the reason is likely due to the entrenchment formerly. I didn't wake up one day and swear off rock and roll or music in general, more like a leading out of it gradually, largely unnoticed even.

It wasn't anything I read surely, even after coming out of the darkness and into the light, most of the same denunciations always had that over the top dishonesty about it, difficult to teach someone the evils of their trade when they have never practiced it. Just wasn't those things at all, it was something inward, the intimations of the Holy Spirit that I just couldn't 'allow' these things, it bothered me spiritually, not because "I ought not", not because of a message or a preacher telling me so, replaying all the imagery of things I already knew all to well.

Hard for me to express this correctly. What I have noticed after much time away is the same effects of television and say drama for instance. Rarely watch the TV for these sort of things and the play on emotion is much more pronounced having seen it from this perspective. The music and moods created by it, the drawing off of sympathies, the soulish qualities. It is not necessarily a denouncement of it all wholesale, nor do I believe it is for 'everyone' to abstain from any or all of it ... Qualifying that of course with what would be overt, vulgar, sensual and so forth. Much of it reminds me of the old "others may, but you cannot", neither here nor there, "what is that to [i]you[/i], you follow me".

One of the grave dangers that can come up through our discussions is the assumption that while discussing a perspective one is lending credence to it or approval, support or defense when that is very often far from the case. Will likely and hope to continue to push the matter of honesty no matter what it is we discuss, this it seems is where we can often go far astray as Brethren, over proving a point to make a point, it's just dishonest and lying ultimately. Fortunately we are blessed to have amongst ourselves those that grasp this and can help us all to get to the very spirit and truth. May be veering off course here but to bring this back to the matter at hand, what constitutes 'satanic' in our understanding? Mused on this thread on the way home tonight and the verse;

1Jo 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one.

Interestingly, 'heard' it from the EMTV version which renders it;

1Jo 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the evil one.

The 7-11 is satanic, the asphalt is satanic if it was laid by unsaved men ... I thought of creation itself, trees and birds, the ocean and the dirt that carpets the earth, satanic? No. But the former things, where do we draw the line or do we? Are we missing the sheer subtlety of what the enemy is really up to? The outward results of fallen, rebellious men, are they the co-mingling of spiritual manipulation that we are not even aware of, tugging and pulling at the emotions, making the distinctions blurred? Unsure if it is the hardwiring of the makeup or the devils minions tempting and disguising themselves in other ways, say ... 'Christianity'? What greater effect than to divide and conquer? "That they may all be one", has he managed a great deal of success not here alone? Quite a bit more comes to mind, but what greater diversion than to occupy our thought's with the outcomes and results and make [i]that[/i] the issue (drunkenness, r'n'r, sensuality etc. etc.) without peeling back the layers to find the root of the matter and address it...

Musing ...

forgive some ranting but I wanted to duck in the slipstream opened here....

The flesh is just forever vulnerable to seduction and temptation, one can not be too cautious in safeguarding the soul and preserve it for not only the glory of Christ, but the service to God. Especially with our children.

Much of it reminds me of the old "others may, but you cannot", neither here nor there, "what is that to [i]you[/i], you follow me".

1Jo 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the evil one.

Are we missing the sheer subtlety of what the enemy is really up to? The outward results of fallen, rebellious men, are they the co-mingling of spiritual manipulation that we are not even aware of, tugging and pulling at the emotions, making the distinctions blurred? Unsure if it is the hardwiring of the makeup or the devils minions tempting and disguising themselves in other ways, say ... 'Christianity'?

make [i]that[/i] the issue (drunkenness, r'n'r, sensuality etc. etc.) without peeling back the layers to find the root of the matter and address it...

It is hard describing spiritual movements beneath the surface, but you''ve seemed to touch them here for me...Who or what is indugling all our senses in church these days? Two of the most powerful ministries in church are under abusive management...music and youth. I say abusive because indulging children, (of all ages) is a form of abuse.

Worship to 'God's people' has become little more then enchanted song time...our feeding at the trough of emotions. Wanted to blame that on the Charismatics, but realize that's a cop out...most modern churches seem piggish this way.

Now I admit I like music...I'm a musician...but music is hardly worship. Can't say for everyone what worship in spirit and truth is, but for my own contribution to this subject I'd say it has less to do with music, and more to do with living and obeying the government of God in our hearts.

After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things

Now I know that there will be a literal establishment of a Government in Zion...but doesn't the authority of that government already hold sway over God's people...or are we under the law of our pleasures untill he returns?

How little the Kingdom seems to be found in our average corner church... Is there a place for songs and dancing? Only if there is also place for Jesus in all these words and gyrations that bare his reputation. Everyone wants liberty above all other considerations...but who cares if there is grace and liberty to do something if it does not do justice to the name of God! Now many of us are young and just starting out...needing grace and milk and we understand this...but even as we feed on milk and cookies...what vector does our 'feeding' set us on? Where is it taking us?

So we sing our diddies, dance our twirls, and utter prophecies of straw...we huff and puff and nothing ever changes in our churches...except they become more settled with time. Isn't this proof that this music craze has little to do with worship? With glorifying God? At a church we used to sing this upbeat gospel song "Well we're a church on fire" and I wanted to go sit in the car and wait untill the dead party was over. Now I loved the people there...they are the dearest brothers and sisters I know...but that happy song just broke my heart into pieces. How can something false be spirit and truth?. I didn't leave out of judgement...I would leave to preserve my own already wobbly sense of reality....

Wouldn't true worship be to take the bitter untrue words of that song, swallow them like the vile lie they are and cry out to God...asking for him to make the words of that song come back out of our bellies...this time true and alive...but you would lose the visitors...yet maybe the next wave of visitors to step into your door would be coming for the right worship.

And then my wobby sense of spiritual reality fails me...and I tell myself I am an idealist and that the lie is the truth...there is no fire except it be sung about in a happy song. Relax...Enjoy the party...make sure to shake someone's hand on your way out into the world.

I find this word approprate.

Musing ...

which means thinking or considering...now contrast this to the A-musement of music...amusement meaning to suspend or stop thinking.

Could it be that modern worship...rather then turning eyes upon Jesus, looking full into His wonderful face to consider their ways before him...that instead contemporary P&W floods the senses with pleasant obstruction...people raise their hands and shut their eyes never having to fall upon the Rock of their salvation...they sway to the spirit of the age...year after year entering the sancturary of church never having to be confronted with conscience...

Where is the worship that crosses over to a Kingdom of unmanufactured pre-existant holiness, where the God is enthroned and unchallenged...a vision of an unearthly city that is vast beyond the scale of any fleshly government, prophetically trembling our feeble knees, and yet setting our hearts on fire to endure all things for His namesake during our brief time?

I ain't never yet heard a song that can do that. Only obedience, which is the heart of worship, can see through the torn veil. All other 'revelation' is artistic license...and there is much creative talent in 'worship' these days.

MC

(forgive my strong , perhaps self-agrandizing opinions above...there is much smoke being blown in our eyes on this subject...and I sometimes find myself pushing hard to see past it...and I certainly see myself in this mess...)

God bless you Mike...
I hope you don't think I'm in some way saying Niko McBain isn't a christian. I never at all stated that...I indeed hope to God he is...and is his conversion even any of my business?...I don't think it is.
But I do know what my Lord has asked of me - to deny myself, pick up my cross and follow Him...to pray without ceasing, to love my enemies and my neighbor, etc, and to mortify my fleshly members.
I, Mike, used to be a hugh Maiden fan not too many years back. But I don't lust after their music anymore - and only this is by the grace of God.
And I too believed in God when at the same time loved listening to Maiden, but it was a different Jesus than I know of today. I thought it was okay to love the things of the world and the Lord at the same time. I know consider this to be committing spiritual adultery against the Lord, and this is where i am today....and still have alot farther in Him to press into.
I do remember however what made me come to the conclusion "I didn't know what to think" after reading the mcBain interview. it was the fact that the man's saying he's born again while in the same interview he's uttered three or four swear words.
Honestly, I don't even like to say I'm a Christian so I don't...I'll let someone else say that of me, but I won't say it of myself.
I believe in a Lord that calls sinners to repentance, and not to live unregenerated lives. And i don't believe a true child of God can be happy and content living the life of an unregenerate soul.

crsschk wrote:
Hi Ritchie,

I can't comprehend headbangin' to 'The Number Of The Beast' and mortifying my fleshly members at the same time.

Is this really any of our business when we get right down to it? What I mean is, are we to take the quick clippings, the little that is known and make a case one way or the other? Isn't the larger question, [i]why[/i] are we so interested in attempting to figure these things out? Not trying to be pointed or accusatory, just food for thought.

The old testament states that the children of Israel were not to recycle the gold off of the idols of Canaan lest they fall into temptation themselves. I strongly disagree with taking a song the world recognizes as being secular and evil to use as a worship song or any other type of casual music. Not all secular music is evil as not all secular movies are evil. I myself prefer to be edified by a ministering song than entertained by a worthless song.
As coming out of sex drugs and rock and roll i strongly despise the Christ labeled metal. It is nothing but a recycled idol to me. I have heard that the music doesn't matter its the lyrics. I remind you that the lyrics of the fortune teller girl in Acts were completely accurate of Paul and i think it was barnabas. However, the spirit by which the lyrics were spoken was an evil spirit sent not to confirm "the servants of the most high God that shew unto us the way of salvation." But to bring persecution and trouble to Paul. Let's not be so undiscerning of the power of the unseen and spiritual influences of the Devil.
Lets be open as to the fact that the age group that Christ labeled metal focuses is youth. And the youth have the biggest struggle with rock and roll. So should we take them out of the world and put them into a worldly youth group and expect them to prosper spiritually? Lets try to sanctify their surroundings and offer them something more than attraction. How about offering them Joy unspeakable and full of glory. I don't thing we need to glorify the Glory of God by dressing him up with the worlds outfits of attraction. I think the Glory of God is beautiful just the way He is.
I don't think rock and roll is evil because "nothing is evil of itself" but the world doesn't know that. And it reminds the young ones of their struggles and makes it hard to separate. I think most the world views rock and roll as being ungodly because of the reputation of rock and roll. I wouldn't want to lose Christs testimony by mixing him with what the world views as ungodly. Whether it be ungodly or not. I can honestly say however i've never ever heard a rock and roll song that in any way ministered to my spirit. They usually just offend me. I can also note that metal is a violent music. And my God is not a violent God.

Mike C

I say abusive because indulging children, (of all ages) is a form of abuse.

very well phrased,

..along the same thought, indulging worshippers, is a form of abuse (distracting attentiveness away from the spirit and the truth of God)

Yeshuaboy,

Honestly, I don't even like to say I'm a Christian so I don't...I'll let someone else say that of me, but I won't say it of myself.

yeah, unhappily, I sort of know how you meant, I'm pretty much the same way nowadays

May GOd help us on SI to defend His Name and His Word to His glory always, not much else is that important or worth defending..

musing...(copying Crsschk) :)

Well its been a few months, almost a year since i posted on this web site and with good cause. I am amazed at the fact that so many that have posted on this thread use the "i don't judge" philosphy on the musicians of Iron Madien and the like, but will call men like Rick Warren and Benny Hinn apostates and continually run them in the ground. Where is our head at? No corrupt communication should leave our mouths but only that which is edifying...none should enter our ears. hate to say folks but theres a bit of a double standard going on here. maybe we should spend a little less time asking what's wrong with rock music and ask our sevles, "what's right abot it?" God is passionate for His glory to shine in our lives, are we? D~

Hi Richie,

Sigh ... (A happy sigh). Back a few replies there was a mention or two towards this, with Neil and a mention of the dangers of assuming too much ... Hopefully, we are all getting a bit better at this style of communicating but still, realize I can add my own fodder here. As I mentioned to our brother Neil, there is a launching off into 'generalizations' and "[i]Not trying to be pointed or accusatory, just food for thought.[/i]"

There is the great "of course" of the matter... Richie, something I am beginning to notice and have had pointed out, is a tendency at times to 'talk in shadows', not always being quite clear. Recognize it more and more, think I may start off at a point and get lost along the way, dropping out details, not filling out others, have this apparently strange ability to have 10 different thoughts running concurrently but, lacking the ability to draw them together cohesively. Besides that, am just plain long-winded! :-)

So no, dear brother it was not to those ends...

"I didn't know what to think"

More strange was, why after so great a salvation would He then throw me to the dogs of the bizarre world of prosperity and Word of Faith and all the spurious confusion and associated baggage for a prolonged season? Hindsight is showing more and more that incredible 'foolishness' of the Lord (1Co 1:25), of the many one that was created was a hungering after the purity of truth and a creation of that oft-putting, pit in the stomach, sometimes inner revulsion that MC termed as well about the "happy song" ... it just disagrees at that point, inwardly.

Thank God! Brothers, Brethren, sisters, this dwelling in unity,...

[i]Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity![/i]

Krispy is right, Paul is correct, Ritchie and MC, Neil even ;-) how this dwelling and elucidating, finishing each others thought's and complimenting them, giving each other pause to consider, challenging our own assumptions. It is mightily impressive not that we are all aping each other with a rah, rah! Me too! But driving at the same bottom, getting more and more honest about the great things of the Lord, what He is really after.

A bit of exuberance leaking out this morning, I agree wholeheartedly with Krispy, this is truly a great unraveling here and how thankful I am for those than can come along and help sort out my own perplexities of verbalization.

which means thinking or considering...now contrast this to the A-musement of music...amusement meaning to suspend or stop thinking.

Ah brother, is this not the very truth of so much? In regards to music it [i]can[/i] be something of a giving over of the emotions for well, manipulation ... Ah, need to pull out some Chambers and bring it back to all this, think he really drives home the point far better... Part of it is in this tweaking of places that we do not know deep below our conscience. Proving my still scattered brain approach, earlier had mentioned the TV and drama and didn't quite finish the thought. The other night was in a pensive, contemplative 'mood' if you will, long exhausting day, but fruitful, productive, overwhelming with responsibilities and yet ... [i]the Lord[/i], His peace... Watching my beloved Los Tiburones (The Sharks) while we were eating dinner and my step-son and the wife have been watching the series "Jericho" (Yes, a whole other topic here, but for the moment bear with me). So we switched over ... Have caught a few bit's and pieces of it, enough to pick up on what is going on with the premise of it all. As I mentioned, TV is just another one of those things that is both arbitrary, diabolical ... trash it, destroy it, abstain from it ... the history channel? Sigh, we certainly live in interesting times, the mud is thicker by the day, the confusion and crassness, mingled morals and sensual allurements .... But, hey, a historical walk through the land that Paul traveled! ... I digress. So the Sharks won (But of course! Sorry Krispy, no "Canes" this year brother) and I flipped the evil box mechanism over to "Jericho", ah, see how subtle? To see what would happen to the bridge they were defending ... It went to some scenes of a particular woman who apparently lost her fiancée' in a plane crash from what I could gather and who kept having apparitions of him, speaking to her... At one point it cut over to finding her taking a seat in a church ...

Well, enough of the particulars, what I began to notice was how my own inward emotions were being tweaked with, how I was actually being 'sucked into it' almost unaware, now not completely otherwise I would have likely given it no notice whatsoever. Again, it is this observation from the perspective of abstinence which doesn't mean anything more than being away from something in large part for a rather long period of time. It was at some point there was this 'catching' of myself and recognizing how I had gone from the former .. sense of the Lord's subtle, underlying peace to another realm if you will, just from a television program that is not even true! Why should I [i]allow[/i] myself to be mishandled in such a way over something that while mildly 'entertaining' never happened and is just a creation of some creative mind, it's not the matter of whether it's moral or amoral, nothing sinister in the content and perhaps there is always something to glean, such as why is the world so caught up and played with like puppets on a string to begin to believe that all the fantasy that television programs by and large [i]are[/i] actually reflect reality? Is the world really over run with dramatics? Crime scene investigation seems to be the hot thing at the moment, all the glamorizing and ... Aren't we right back to the whole matter of 'over the top'? Ask our dear brother Paul about the messiness of decaying human flesh as a mortician and see how well this fit's the mold of superstar, fantasy investigative practices.

Doubtful the exaggerations, but again, how much of reality is reflected and how much is created drama effecting the world's thinking... "Based on reality" is far too often nothing more than a crock ...

"Satanic" ?

([i]edit: Forgot the quote;[/i])

Well its been a few months, almost a year since i posted on this web site and with good cause. I am amazed at the fact that so many that have posted on this thread use the "i don't judge" philosphy on the musicians of Iron Madien and the like, but will call men like Rick Warren and Benny Hinn apostates and continually run them in the ground. Where is our head at?

Good to hear from you brother, but must ask, did you really read through [i]all[/i] of this?

Deleted your other post of the same, hoping you might continue on here, since it is the same posting and would keep the discussion more cohesive. Believe we are off on completely different lines of 'judging' here than that which can be addressed in such a slight fashion ...

Krispy stole some of my same reaction;

And my God is not a violent God.

Hard to add but, The Revelation of Jesus Christ also comes to mind...

Matt, I do understand where your intention may still lie in that, heavy metal is in great part [i]violent[/i], what other music makes someone turn into the equivalent of a bobble-head doll? Surprised I didn't knock myself silly sometimes, and standing in front of 4, 10" speakers, controlling a power that is ... [i]felt[/i]... Talk about your rush of adrenaline ... Quite a few aspects to all of this...

Thanks for the reply Mike. You know, I wonder if Niko was preached a "synthetic Gospel" like I first was....that the law is done away with,etc, etc..."Don't be so serious Richie", many would say to me. I wasted so many years Mike not taking God seriously.
I just wanted to say, it's pretty much a "given" for me to say that I'm probably the "chiefest of sinners" out of all that participate in these forums...and I indeed am not bragging when I mention this, but say this to my shame.
If the Lord really wants to use Niko as an instrument of righteousness to glorify Him, then Praise God brother. His thoughts are surely higher than mine!
Years ago, I thought how great it would be if the Lord met Ozzy like He did Saul on the road to Damascus...I would remember him in my prayers, but I haven't now for long while...this is probably to my shame too.
May I say Mike that I respect your opinion, and I love you as a brother. Feel free to rebuke me openly or privately whenever the Lord puts it on your heart...for I have much to learn and much to be thankful for, and honestly there are times when I forget these great truths...again to my shame.
As far as inotof's comment is concerned, I would like to say this: I will only speak for myself concerning the matter of judging righteously and unrighteously. I know that their is a great difference...one that is of the heart, is of motive...one is carnal, one is of God, etc. I love the book of James because he calls it as led by the Holy Spirit. I am sure some back in his day disapproved of his rebukes, while others would respond as the psalmist in Psalm 141:5. Regardless, Godly rebuke is necessary ...I praise God for it because I continually need it in order to keep on the path of the straight and narrow. Others more educated than myself can speak of this subject in a more concise matter. I agree much of what is documented in:[url=http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue94.htm]Discernment In An Age Of Disception[/url]. Truly sheep can be naive concerning this issue, but that's why Godly leadership is so important, and honestly there's not alot of that in the world, which is why it is important to have a "berean-like" mentality concerning the deep truths of the Scriptures. If I'm a "little toe" I need an "eye" to tell me "Sripturely" which way I'm going, etc lest I fall into some ditch. I need the Truth that sets me free regardless of what it will cost me!...And I thank God for it even if it makes me suffer. Pray that I don't run from the crosses the King of Kings asks me to carry. As the saints of old used to say like William Penn and John Owen, "No Cross, No Crown."
Have a blessed day in the Lord Mike,
richie

Years ago, I thought how great it would be if the Lord met Ozzy like He did Saul on the road to Damascus...I would remember him in my prayers, but I haven't now for long while...this is probably to my shame too.

I ask that of myself as well. When I come out strongly against Joyce Meyer, or Warren, or Hinn... whoever it may be... have I also been on my knees praying for them? Most of the time, yes, but sadly... not always.

Ozzy is not the enemy.

Interesting that this came up twice. I too am at fault, there was a point not too far back, may have made mention of it even here about praying for Ozzy's salvation ... something about the heart of this man, despite all the theatrics and whatnot, all the rightful things he brought upon his self but far more the misunderstandings and attribution of being poster boy for satan himself ... It gets right back full circle to where a great deal of this whole thread is aimed at, honesty. Feel the explanatory impulse to have to add, 'let's not make him any more different than anyone else' but how wonderful a testimony and praise to God would this great misfit in the eyes of the world (and much of Christendom) be ...

Brothers, can we make a collective effort to pray for him specifically for a season?

By the way, would be dishonest not to mention that I was very much a huge Randy Rhoads fan, even bought one of the first 100 made flying "V" models that bears his imprint and design. His early death was devastating to me as he had become something of an 'idol' (Guitar wise, even had my hair cut the same way) and even more so after his death. Interesting also that this is very close to the timing of Iron Maiden's hey day and by that I mean also when I was being witnessed to ... Have been tempted in the past to play "Dee", the instrumental ode to his mother to some of the aforementioned naysayers of all this 'devil music' to see their reaction (It is a classical piece for everyone else) and then drop the bombshell of just whose band he was in...

There must be some raised eyebrows out there reading all this wondering how we could be associating so many things in this manner, especially here. Still find it a bit difficult, having been away from all this so long to bring out many of these things without giving off the wrong impression, like Krispy stated, this is not a condoning of anything, it is a vehicle for driving ourselves to be honest about how things are, not how we might assume them to be.

Do find it interesting that so many ex-head-bangers are congregating together in these parts. :-)

Krispy, pretty cool about Aritumus and well said about Bruce Dickerson as well, you have the right attitude brother ... just men, just like us, just as we once were.

Amen Krispy,

A thoughtful post...for Christ Jesus suffered and was raised from the dead, and is now at the Father's right side...He died for sinners...ALL sinners...May I be obedient to pray for whom the Spirit leads me to pray for...And by the way, I wish I had half the musical talent these guys have...well, to a certain extent that is ;-)
The Lord continually bless you Krispy,
richie

crsschk wrote:
Brothers, can we make a collective effort to pray for him specifically for a season?

Hey Krisp,

As far as Twisted Scripture (oops...I mean "Sister", sorry) goes, it is my understanding that Dee Snyder comes from a very evangelical backround. I think his dad is a pastor. He grew up on Long Island, New York, not far from where I grew up. He was on the radio alot, especially on the Howard Stern show, back before he (Stern) became immensely popular and totally debauched.

Just thought I'd add that little factoid.

Blessings,

Brother Paul

First of all let me apologize to any that I offended with my first post, Krispy, sorry man, I did not intentially single you out, and I am sorry, I took a phrase that hit me wrong without examaning the context of the conversation. Forgive me. I’m usually not one to simply jump the gun and respond to something ½ cocked.
Secondly, Krispy Wrote: For those of you who very vocally come out against Iron Maiden, Elton John, etc... when was the last time you spent time on your knees praying for their salvation?

I ask that of myself as well. When I come out strongly against Joyce Meyer, or Warren, or Hinn... whoever it may be... have I also been on my knees praying for them? Most of the time, yes, but sadly... not always”

Thank You for that Steve! That, I think was the point I was trying to make, yet I allowed my anger to respond rather than my heart.

See, here’s the skinny, I’m a musician, I have been for 10 years. I love to play, I’ve only known playing in the house of the Lord, to the Lord. I have never taken a lesson, it just happened one night and has grown.
\tIn some circles, my instrument is simply tolerated, others it is a called the a tool of the devil and I am seen as a sinner for even wanting to play, still in some it is celebrated. If you haven’t guessed, I’m a drummer.
\tMusic is extremely personal to me. Wether you believe it or not, music does influence us in ways that nothing else can. It can move us to tears, serves as proper motivation to bench 305, it can be the boost that causes us to run the full 5 miles before we cash in. So when I think about the discussions that go on about it, sometimes it makes me angry, because like Eric Lindell, I can sense God’s pleasure when I play. No matter if it’s Hillsong, The Hinsons, Pillar or Promise Keepers.
\tSo, I get a little standoffish, when it comes to music, those of you who play might understand. So I’m sorry for my reaction. Let us pray for all of those who are in the field of Rock and roll from Abba to Zappa, they need it.
\tAs for the judging, your right, no here has ever judged weather someone else is saved, that is God alone’s decision. However can we all agree that we can judge, yes we’re even required to judge the Spirit behind the music, CCM or not, what Spirit it driving the tunes?
\tI’ll probably bow out for awhile again, until I can learn to think before I type. Peace and Grace! D~

not saying that we should judge someone's salvation, but, you can surely know if one is a christian by their fruit. didn't paul say that some have fallen away from the faith. that sounds like judging someone's life in Christ. seeing if they are really of Christ or not. you can look at someone's life and speech and know if they are truly in the faith.

2 Timothy 4:10

10 for Demas has forsaken me, [b]having loved this present world[/b], and has departed for Thessalonica—Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia.

you can look at a someone's life and see that they love this present world more than God. just like paul saw that in demas.

not only are you suppose to judge teaching, but also christian's lifestyle. if it is not according to Christ, we are not suppose to fellowship with them.

1 Corinthians 5:11

11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

well this verse exposes a lot of christian bands. you can tell that many christian bands are in it for themselves and that they do love the world. it is very obviouse, but many christians are so blind to the harlotry of most muscians because they love their music.

if you can tell that people are using Jesus name for their fame, why support them by buying their music. this should grieve us to where we do not even want to buy their stuff.

yes, i agree lets pray for these rock stars like ozzy and them, but we also should be immensly grieve with their lifestyle that is loudly agaist Christ. the sad thing is, a lot of christians are so into their music and talents that it blinds them to the lostness of their souls( muscians), where they are not broken for them, because they take delight in their music and talented gifts. i feel for muscians. many are lost and i believe that a lot of christians don't pray for them because their busy enjoying their music that it has blind them to the heart of these lost souls.

yes, some might be intellectual, but it is worldly intellect that profits to NOTHING. human wisdom is dung and should not be look upon as something great. it doesn't matter how smart someone is because human intellect is prideful and about self. if they were so smart they would see that even their itellect is dung and leads to nothing and would be seeking Christ.

...not to distract from the flow but needed 2 seconds to notice this...

(music)...serves as proper motivation to bench 305

Nice job inotof!

MC

MyFirstLove wrote:

human wisdom is dung and should not be look upon as something great. it doesn't matter how smart someone is because human intellect is prideful and about self. if they were so smart they would see that even their itellect is dung and leads to nothing and would be seeking Christ.

Now this is what I like to hear! All things apart from Christ are absolute vanity. Dung, as my sister so plainly said. I count it all as dung too, all the 'intelligent' Iron Maiden lyrics, the architectural wonder of skyscrapers and bridges, the sports world, astrophysics, wall street, politics, whatever - it's all perishing dung outside of Christ and meaningless. I need to die daily to it all. Do you think Paul went to the Olympics? Or to see Greek tragedies? In truth, when a person gets born again of the Spirit, all that stuff starts to fade away and lose its charm. Perhaps, not all of it goes away immediately - but a holy progression that takes you further and further away from the world has nonetheless started. As the knowledge of Christ and the light of God's Word spreads deeper within you, the other stuff grows dim. Sports, fleshly music, TV, fashion, they all lose their allurements.

What would you think if you found out that Ravenhill was secretly a sports nut? That he cheered for the Cowboys and spoke of his affinity from the pulpit? Immediately, my respect for him as a holy, sanctified man of God would decrease. I would think "No, he is still clinging to a part of the world. He doesn't have the right to get up and preach surrender. He doesn't have a right to tell me to divorce completely from the world."

And you, secretly, would think the same.

How then can we condone anyone who professes Christ yet remains yoked to the world? It doesn't mean we stop loving them. If anything, we pray for them more fervently! But as far as respect, as for honor, as for a lifestyle worthy of imitation? No, no, no. What good are they? Savourless salt, fit for the dunghill. Their testimony of Christ means noting. Friends, until the church completely divorces itself from the world (even from the 'harmless' stuff), we will never grow in holiness and wisdom. We will certainly never experience personal revival. We will always remain spiritual dwarves, spouting out empty theology and opinions, a grief both to man and to God.

(edit) Please don't spank me! I'm only typing the truth that you all already know. Oh, that we would live to be humble and lowly and dead to the world and full of God's Word and walking day by day in the Spirit. Liberated from the devil, and enslaved to the Mighty One of Israel. People would want to be like us! The Jews would be jealous! Imagine that!

Brother Paul

A dear brother sent this to me awhile back. I've always hung on to it. Since the topic of this thread has to do with selling souls and rock and roll, I figured it was appropriate! Notice, not all on this list were rock musicians, but you'll get the point...

JOHN LENNON: Some years before, during his interview with an American Magazine, he said: "Christianity will end, it will disappear. I do not have to argue about that. I am certain. Jesus was ok, but his subjects were too simple, Today we are more famous than Him" (1966). Lennon, after saying that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus Christ, was shot six times.

TANCREDO NEVES (President of Brazil): During the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes from his party, not even God would remove him from Presidency. Sure he got the votes, but he got sick a day before being made President, then he died.

CAZUZA (Bi-sexual Brazilian composer, singer and poet): During a show in Caneco ( Rio de Janeiro ), whilst smoking his cigarette, he puffed out some smoke into the air and said: "God, that's for you." He died at the age of 32 of AIDS in a horrible manner.

THE MAN WHO BUILT TITANIC: After the construction of Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe the Titanic would be. With an ironic tone he said: "Not even God can sink it" The result: I think you all know what happened to the Titanic.

MARILYN MONROE: She was visited by Billy Graham during a presentation of a show. He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her. After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she said: "I don't need your Jesus". A week later, she was found dead in her apartment.

BON SCOTT: The ex-vocalist of the AC/DC. On one of his 1979 songs he sang: "Don't stop me, I'm going down all the way, down the highway to hell". On the 19th of February 1980, Bon Scott was found dead, he had been choked by his own vomit.

CAMPINAS/SP IN 2005 In Campinas, Brazil a group of friends, drunk, went to pick up a friend. The mother accompanied her to the car and was so worried about the drunkenness of her friends and she said to the daughter - holding her hand, who was already seated in the car: "MY DAUGHTER, GO WITH GOD AND MAY HE PROTECT YOU." She responded: "ONLY IF HE (GOD) TRAVELS IN THE TRUNK, CAUSE INSIDE HERE IT'S ALREADY FULL" Hours later, news came by that they had been involved in a fatal accident, everyone had died, the car could not be recognized what type of car it had been, but surprisingly, the trunk was intact. The police said there was no way the trunk could have remained intact. To their surprise, inside the trunk was a crate of eggs, none were broken.

Still quite interesting reading through all this. Paul, I do agree and would think Steve would just as well with what you have brought forth here. Seems different in perspective, the intelligence that Krispy (Steve) is alluding to is almost paradoxical ... Isn't one of the detriment's to a lot of what is passing for the sheer reality of scriptural truth in our day very much a lack of just [i]thinking[/i]? Not the measure on a grading scale of intellect, but ... Let me try it this way, the differences Krispy pointed out for instance between say Twisted Sister and Rush (I know, we have touched on this earlier) and that of an easy believism from ... anybody and a Tozer or a Chambers. This sort of contemplation, (Strange it is that Dee Synder seemed to be pretty articulate off stage ... another thing that needs to be caught, bit of acting there in a lot of this.)

Quickly, Krispy, a great deal in common from our respective era's and think you have really expressed a great deal very well, Stryper without a doubt had a very huge impact on me, they were something of a bridge while I wrestled between a growing urgency to know God and hang on or try and make sense of what at the time I thought was my goal in life, to be a guitarist and a 'Rock Star', more on the former than the latter. Strange times, but the Lord through Stryper did get quite a bit in at even the subconscious level. Your retelling about their progression was dead on accurate. Great stuff brother.

To move the pendulum back a bit more to where Paul is speaking from and alluded to how many other aspects there are yet still to all of this.

Pride. There is something very inherent in this that sits perhaps under the radar, that desire for accolades and applause, that want of being noticed, [i]loved[/i] by adoring fans ... to [i]feel[/i] that, to hear it redounding in our ears of ones 'greatness' for natural giftings that have been developed or even developed efforts that can equal the same occasionally. How much of this is still yet evident in the 'crossover' culture that finds a borrowing and stealing of the same thing from 'Christian' to secular? Hard to make that dogmatic across the board, someone like Stryper in their hey day, a guess is a mixture of both and could almost but wonder at how much they had to work through to get to where they later ended up. A great deal of processing must go on in this walk, a great deal of [i]thinking[/i], is this not the most intelligent intelligence there is that we adhere to? Christianity is intelligence of the highest sort, seems absurd to even have to make mention of it. What kind of intellect is it that confounds the wise and the wisdom of this world? Do very much appreciate where Paul is going with this and found a lot of the same truth in;

In truth, when a person gets born again of the Spirit, all that stuff starts to fade away and lose its charm. Perhaps, not all of it goes away immediately - but a holy progression that takes you further and further away from the world has nonetheless started. As the knowledge of Christ and the light of God's Word spreads deeper within you, the other stuff grows dim. Sports, fleshly music, TV, fashion, they all lose their allurements.

It does lose it's charm, at least that is what I probably could have made an easier mention of far back here. Paul, I do think that something may be amiss here though;

What would you think if you found out that Ravenhill was secretly a sports nut? That he cheered for the Cowboys and spoke of his affinity from the pulpit? Immediately, my respect for him as a holy, sanctified man of God would decrease. I would think "No, he is still clinging to a part of the world. He doesn't have the right to get up and preach surrender. He doesn't have a right to tell me to divorce completely from the world."

How then can we condone anyone who professes Christ yet remains yoked to the world?

Not sure this is a condoning of any of it, but perhaps we may be giving off that impression. Maybe Krispy's comment earlier about having a sorrow and an 'empathy' for those that we once were close associates with (At least in our love for their music and practical imitation) is a bit closer to home. Mentioned before how difficult it was attempting to elucidate about all this, still find it so.

I don't know that there is a 'how to' of approach toward all of this, a great deal of expression is from our own experience and how we came through it all, not a giving of allowance or approval per se.

One of the thoughts left percolating today on this matter was that of "write offs", how much fodder can be given to denouncing what we do not really understand, to go about with picket signs ranting about going to hell with those who think it is something of a party in the first place is really quite silly and ridiculous. Just as much as providing documentaries on this 'great evil' ... well of course it is, but where does it stem from? How well would an accurate presentation of the pride of life or pride in the human heart give sway to even Christians who would rather in truth hear the dirt of those nasty rock and rollers? Here we are, a great number of "such were some of you's" and the ease of writing off any soul seems only exacerbated by even the well intentioned. It is the sensationalism and dubiousness that bothers me more than anything. To equate everything to this black and white 'simplicity' of 'this is of the devil' and the Christian can take pride in his highmindeness from having either been delivered or fortunate enough to have missed the drugs and associated baggage is a bit too easy. Please note that I am again off into generalities here, especially regarding Paul, you are a great benefit and mentor to many here, especially to me, still believe we are just coming at this from different angles.

Still left wondering if we have finished stripping off the paint of all of this yet.

You know i am amazed at how what i mean to say and what is taken by my written words are so far apart. Obvious due to the lack of ability to read body language and tone of voice meant behind an expression when it is written not spoken creates room for misunderstanding. As well as my own fault in not doublechecking what i write :) I must say i am very well aware of the violence of gods judgment in the old testament. the much more worthy punishment of those who trod underfoot the blood of christ in hebrews and the "treadeth out the winepress of the fierceness of God's wrath" in revelation. My intent in saying "my god is not a violent god" was that the bible says "turn from anger and forsake wrath." also, i must quote, "vengeance is mine sayeth the lord, i will repay." May we be as little sheep and lambs. Let the shepherd smite and destroy. God has never told me to be angry at anybody but the devil. And anger is of fools "proverbs." so my point was that God doesn't desire us to be violent in our hearts. That is reserved for him. I have found rock and roll to be a partner for anger and an influence for the heart of hatred. But yet again i say, "nothing is unclean of itself." So i do not believe that the music itself is always bad. But i have noticed that usually christ labeled rock bands are heavily equipped with pride, dark appearance, and a lack of depth of revelation. Often displaying forms of rebellion and other childlike foolishness. And most of all, i have never ever heard ANOINTED MINISTRY from any rock band. This doesn't mean it doesn't exist. For i am too small to say that it doesn't. I've just never encountered it.

Dear Mike,

Brother, I'll tell you what it is. It's just the medium by which we are communicating. It's so hard, so tough to guage the right tenor through characters on this monitor. Things get blown out of proportion, generalities are taken personally, people feel as though their convictions are being triffled with, and then neither side is willing to yield and the whole thing just escalates.

In the beginning, I misunderstood Krispy. Now I think I understand where he's coming from. I do not believe Krispy, or you [i]condone[/i] wicked music. Or really anyone who has contributed to this thread. Condone was the wrong word. Perhaps a toleration or even rationalization would be better? And even then - I'm not saying you or Krispy, in particular, tolerate it or are attempting to justify the worthiness of secular or Christian rock here on this thread. Do you see how tricky this is? If you say something in general that applies to the Christian status quo (without emphasizing the status quo is whom the statement is for), it is well nigh impossible to avoid confusion and disagreements. Especially if a person is already predisposed to a certain conviction (sports or music, for example) and you come against it - [i] wham![/i] It can be taken as a personal attack! I understand this, and this is precisely the reason why I try to deliberately season my words with salt on this thing. It's so different from an actual face-to-face conversation, or a telephone conversation. So different, so misleading and, at times, implacable.

This is why, in truth, I am thinking of not contributing to these controversial threads anymore. You can too easily set yourself up for misunderstanding, and tarnish an otherwise good testimony here on SI. Just the fact that you consider me a mentor to yourself and many here shows my folly in this thread. I always think of Titus 3:9 in situations like these (though I'm not saying we are there yet) and am weary of getting sucked into a fruitless jangling where no man can be edified, and everyone is sure to be offended and/or confused. And then there's the whole pride factor, like you said.

The brothers and sisters here on SI are at many different levels of the Christian walk, and different grades in the school of God. Different levels of maturity, undergoing different types of tests. Convictions for some may not be convictions for others. This is easy to forget! As far as edification, it is a [i]good [/i] thing to learn from a brother or sister in a higher grade, who has taken and passed the tests you are now laboring over. They can give you pointers and wisdom. This is why we listen to and read the writings of the preachers who were great in God. Men and women in the upper eschelons of God's school. Edification is good, but spewing out convictions may not be. And this I am guilty of. I am learning to wait for God's season, and very often I jump the gun and shame myself.

Brethren, this is what I am learning: Acquiring more wisdom and knowledge in God, and growing in grace and maturity often requires you to keep your mouth shut and remain silent when you feel impulsed to interject something the Lord has shown you in the past. This is because you may interject it in the flesh, though it was originally revealed by God's Spirit. We can mess up God's timing and place for sharing it, and build a mountain pride very quickly. Learn this: If God does show you something of a timeless truth that has revolutionized your walk with Christ, this doesn't necessarily mean you are to immediately broadcast this truth to all the different children in all the different grades. Certain things are suitable for all children immediately, and yet there are other things that are wisely kept hiddden, to avoid stife. I am the ultimate Bozo in this area! I can be such a fleshly blabbermouth and run people the wrong way and give people wrong impressions. I really hate my lack of disobedience in this area. I know this also from when brethren wiser than me and in higher grades than I am try to share their convictions with me! I am only in the first grade! How can I learn Calculus? How can I memorize the Bill of Rights? I'm still drinking red Jungle Juice and coloring Donald Duck outside the lines. It would be wise for you guys to learn from my folly, and wait on God's impeccable timing for sharing things which may not be immediately edifying for all his children at all their divers levels. But when the revelation of truth is shared in God's timing and place, the entire body is edified, and Jesus Christ is exhalted in holiness and honor.

in meekness,

Brother Paul

To equate everything to this black and white 'simplicity' of 'this is of the devil' and the Christian can take pride in his highmindeness from having either been delivered or fortunate enough to have missed the drugs and associated baggage is a bit too easy.

Fortunate? Crsschk, may or may be not. I do know what you were saying though. I used to think so, because of this "unfortuate' ugly past that I was born into,I now can appreciate the Cross and learn to loathe sins just all that much more despite all of it. The baggage in my life actually helps me understand a whole lot more than if I hadn't lived with it. So, I praise God for it now. All of it, the broken family, the messy youth...,all of it. I wouldn't trade any of it for a whitewashed life if I were to become proud and sassy by it to others , as all that whitewash is to be my own righteousness ..

It's been my struggle many a time in past when fellowhipping or even just to be in the presence of those high and mighty 'holy' Christians that have 'enjoyed' a physical 'squeaky-clean' life, very often, many of them carry a 'holier-than-thou' attitude later on in life, and tread on some sort of a hyper-spiritualistic life which may or may not even be biblical in the end. No compassion, no love, cannot relate..nothing but filled with holy (or wholly) pride.

Truly if the apostle Paul had considered himself a "wretched' man (without the drugs and the rock and roll), and when God said something like "..there is none righteous, no not one..", none of us as true believers, after salvation, would ever have the need to act or converse as if one does not or will never sin anymore..yes, we should admonish each other with Scripture, encourage each other to do this or that, to avoid this or that, but to act as if I DONT EVER SIN AND SO MUSTN'T YOU, it's ...hmm..

God knows that sinners are a hopeless bunch, praise Him, that we are but dust, priase Him again, probably that's why Christ had to suffer for us all the way to that violent Cross. Anyone who remotely thinks to himself that he or she is going to be good enough even after conversion seems to have missed the high calling of Christians( the eternal heavenly calling to the union with the Lord Jesus ), while rooting himself on the temporal earthly calling to the union of self..

Pride, it's always pride, the nastiest sin that is most vulgar, repulsive, disgusting and yet most subtle. I often think, if I had to choose, I'd tolerate a nasty rock singer blasting away any time over a pharisical soprano lifting his high voice against heaven. At least, I'd be privileged to pray for the former.Yeah,I hate pride in myself too, at times, it feels like super glue and is forever tough to rid of.

Yeah, it is never okay to sin, but fact remains, we will sin till we die..just the sin of pride alone(even with 1/1000 ounce ,for 1/1000 of a second's worth of it) can tarnish the whole of self-conceived 'sinlessness' . For that, one has to realize how marvellous the forgiving Cross is!

Chat on brothers, discussions are good, sharing is warm, the world and it's church buildings are awfully cold out there. Let's also remember these verses

[b]Acts 24:16
And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

1 Corinthians 10:29
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

2 Corinthians 1:12
For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the [color=0000CC]grace of God[/color], we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

Titus 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:[/b]

In Christ

mamaluk you have a wonderful understanding of the grace of God. I have very recently learned that you can't let your "works worthy of repentance" grow larger than your growth in grace or we become self-righteous and self justified. Bringing the "holier than thou" you spoke of. This is no different than the galatians who began in faith and were saved by faith, but they tried to perfect themselves by the law. "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 1:3 I think most suppose the galatians left their foundation of being saved by faith. I don't agree. I think they confessed being saved by faith. The problem is that they think they are kept saved by works. this is very very common in the church as believers grow out of their past sins and into works of the law AKA" church conduct". I MYSELF BEING A RECENT OFFENDER IN THIS AREA. However, When i met a sin i couldn't conquer with my zealousness, i was humbled and humiliated. So repenting of my sin of self righteousness, i converted back to WALKING BY FAITH IN THE GRACE OF GOD.

Zealousness will only become self righteousness if you let your zeal outgrow your growth in grace.

I did a study on psalm 119 and how our "way" is cleansed by God's word. First of all a way is a path not a one time stop at an altar. I also remind everybody that God "upholds all things by the word of His power." This means we are saved by faith, and we STAY SAVED BY CONTINUING IN FAITH. Faith in His Word. His cleansing word. "Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. "

With what God has shown me recently of myself. An extremely zealous young preacher with Gifts and Anointing and Revelation Knowledge. A scripture memorizer and a leader of brothers and sisters. A street evangelist and a faster. A worshiper and a prayer warrior. I let my zeal and works outgrow my grace and i failed because of it. Don't let this happen to you. I am a dog saved by grace. I strongly encourage anybody that thinks they are anything because of their works and zeal to meditate on this parable.

Lu 18:9 And he spake * this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Lu 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Lu 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Lu 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Lu 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Please also note the book of Daniel when Nebuch. is ran out of the kingdom and turn into an animal inside and out. He receives two revelations. First his understanding returns and he learns who God is. Second his reasoning returns and he learns who he is and the purpose of his glory. Your glory is for your kingdom. and you are nothing but a beast of the field saved by grace for God's eternal purpose.

Also please read isaiah 58:1-6

EVERY PERSON HAS VS 1

EVERY SAVED PERSON HAS VS 2-3

If you have vs 2-3 God will help you break vs 1.
but every person has vs one even now. Don't ever think God Spirit can cry aloud and spare not in reproving your sins. Your 2-3 doesn't make you worthy. If its done by faith it will however make you justified.

[color=003300]Zeal without Grace is Saul the persecutor[/color]

Okay, I'm probably going to lose some friends here for what I'm about to say. I'd like to comment on the rock band Stryper, and this comes from my heart. I am seasoning my words here, especially in light of my last post. May God grant me the grace I do not have to honor him with these comments.

Stryper, to me, is a great embarassment and the pinnacle example of how pathetic the church has become in our apostate generation. A true embarassment to the eternal gospel of holiness and majesty. Me and my friends would drink beer while we listened to them and thought they would be so cool if only they'd drop the lame "Jesus" stuff. Because there was absolutely zero conviction. It was sick thing to watch their videos (remember "Soldiers Under Command?") and see all the big-haired girls screaming in adulation, the flesh, the stagediving...and all the while the rockers up on stage soaking it all in, having a great rockin' time. Unlike Keith Green, these guys were looking like they enjoyed it! No repentance, no broken and contrite hearts during those raucous numbers. Just getting down with the color-cordinated act and living it up with the silly facial contortions and bending the whammy bars and flying through the weedily-deedily-deedily guitar solos. No wonder they went secular soon after.

When will the church wake up and see that it is better [i]not[/i] to project this witness if this is the only witness we have. A serious bane of the church today is an unctionless, unholy witness. These kinds of witnesses (and sermons) kill rather than give life. Ask any of the old school, grassroot preachers who saw revival (if you could) about the devastation of an unctionless testimony. It's an absolute grief to God and man. I believe they did more harm than good to Vince Neil (even if they didn't fornicate and do drugs with the groupies). Guess what? A Jehovah's Witness wouldn't have fornicated or done drugs with them either. A serious Roman Catholic may not have either. Rick Warren and Joel Olsteen probably would have gone back to their bus too.

I do believe God used Stryper's music to bring some people to true repentance, but this is because God is sovereign. Case in point is King Saul. It was the people's choice to be just like other kingdoms of the world, and so God, upset and grieved, gave them Saul as King - and even commanded Samuel to anoint him. These Stryperesque bands, I believe, are the products of a "King Saul Christianity" that is occuring widescale throughout the church today. We want the same kind of styles and sounds the world has and still remain God's holy people. No! A thousand times no! We'll never have holy revival and true Christian power and unction manifest in our walks where the world will envy us while we're busy adopting their poster-children and thrusting our own King out. Instead, the world laughs because it sees its own kings dolled-up in Christian illusion. In the long run these illusionary subjects bring nothing but grief, spiritual murder, and, like Stryper, eventually finish themselves off in a form of suicide by going secular. Isn't God's way better? The old paths of holiness and humilty and self-denial and total surrender? The fragrance of a pure and majestic gospel that brings forth godly sorrow and repentance? Isn't it time the church abdicates the apostate, people's King Saul and reinstates Christ to His orginal seat of honor in the church?

Please, I pray this post is received in meekeness, for it was typed in meekness, with no preconceived, personal attacks going out to anyone. I love all of you, and endeavor that we all speak the same in charity and long-suffering.

Brother Paul

Brother Neil,

Okay, all these things you speak of - architecture, medical science, space travel, whatever - they really must become as dung. it doesn't mean that we disregard them, or refuse to sleep under a roof or take an aspirin or look up at the sky and wonder if there are any other worlds out there. No, brother. I meant to say that when one gains the mind of Christ, the [i]charm[/i], or allurement of these things vanish. There will always be unsaved people that will get their fill of these things. But, as for us, if we were as eternity-conscious as we should be, we would see the true vanity in it all. What thrill is gazing at an asthetically-pleasing structure when at any moment I can step into eternity and never again get a chance to win a soul for God on earth? In heaven there will be enough time for all the oohing and ahhing. Personally, I can't be bothered reading about Jupiter's moons. I don't care. And I don't really care about how many rafters it took to build the Brooklyn Bridge. My purpose here is to not go after worldy knowledge and wisdom, but to have the mind of Christ and the wisdom of Christ - which often is [i]diametrically[/i] opposed to the stuff of the world.

Things down here that are highly esteemed in the eyes of men are abominable in God's. The Taj Mahal, the Eiffel Tower, the Pyramids, the Space Shuttle, Disney Land, Sistine Chapel, Rembrant's Masperpeices, Michaelangelo's Pieta and David - all these things will one day be blown to smithereens, but the eternal soul of man will live forever in either fire or paradise. John Wesley said that he valued all things only by the price they shall gain in eternity. Amen! Yes! I agree! There are more than enough heathen to concoct wonder drugs and inform me of the pollen content in the air or tell me what's happening in Uganda. Great. I do appreciate all this! But I'm dead to it all. Can you understand?

Here's an example: I used to be an avid chessplayer before I got saved and a solid classical guitarist. I played Bach, Vivaldi, and Rennaissance Lute music from the 16th century. I competed in an Army chess tournament and beat the last year's champion (a Naval Petty-Officer, by the way, hehehe). But when I got saved, I died to it all. Does this mean that I don't play chess anymore or play guitar or listen to Bach? No! But I am very careful to not let these things steal my heart. I see them all now, as glorious as they were, as products of vanity compared to heaven's light. I have no thrill in any of them. I just don't care, the adrenaline isn't there. It's gone. The only thing I love and read now is God's word. If I catch myself musing over a dubiously charming thing of clay, I'll take the thought captive and bring it under the obedience of Christ. Even my job as a funeral director - I like my job, worked hard in school for it, but, alas, my heart isn't in it. God provides financially and has never let me down, for my wife and I seek the Kingdom of God first in all things. I'm dead to my job. My heart is in Jesus, and if he asked me to leave my place of work, and hit the malaria-ridden fields of Madagascar and die there, I would so in an instant (my wife may not be too thrilled, though!).

Christ is all in all, none but Christ - none for me but Christ. Take the whole world but give me Jesus. How did Isaac Watts put it?

All the vain things that charm me the most,
I sacrifice them to his blood.

Brother Paul

Well, I tried :-)

Thanks for the discussion, Bartle. The Lord bless and keep you.

My, how am I ever going to catch up? What a tremendous thread! Mamaluk ... think you are right there about the 'fortunate', hindsight would have chosen something other to insert there ... I well know what you mean contrasted with the squeaky clean and so forth ... even then, the mind holding all kinds of entrapments and unspoken evils ... But I get you.

Paul ... about Stryper, well you got me in a pickle now, because I agree .... [i]now[/i]. Again, experience vs. condoning or approving, supporting ... Ah, this is rather difficult is it not? Think some careful reading back through my blabbering would show something of talking out of both sides of the mouth though I am not in any way looking for a cop out. Hindsight is something painful sometimes. So much to consider, 'those day's' and as you honestly mentioned, did very much the same, drinking beer, the herb, all that but with a difference ... One of my best friends and I wanted to know God, just the opposite reaction and in the whole muddiness of where our heads were at, bluntly, we wanted the best of both worlds, naturally... We were pretty naive' in those days early on. When they first came to town and were playing stadiums back then ... You'll love this, we had no idea how to dress and not wanting to be out of place, basically put on the closest thing to our 'Sunday best', imagine the shock and horror to find the vast majority decked out in the normal headbanger wear :-D We felt like complete idiots and looked the part!

The second go round ... trying to be honest here and the memory has it's own tricks to play, but recall being convicted at a point when Sweet, in between songs was talking about the Lord, it's fuzzy but also recall a point where some girls where getting up on stage, going after them and he had to them almost Paul-like that 'this is not what it's all about' ... yeah, they brought upon themselves...

Brother it is impossible to disagree with you here really, I can no more suggest all this than I could turn around and rail against it... It is what it was ... (My, where did that come from?)
Surely having come further down the pike and been challenged in so many ways here, from this vast resource of collected saints ... it is a look back, not all good, not what I would really even 'support' frankly ... As I mentioned earlier, don't listen to any music these days and if I had a preference would lean towards classical. It is and has everything to do with inward intimation and a chagrin for being played with emotionally, but and must emphasize this extremely well, it is my own 'conviction', "others may, you cannot" and I have to leave it at that. Full well recognize that some day perhaps the Lord might have me pick up the instrument again, perhaps not. It matters little to me now.

Just to share perhaps a bit more ... As this growing sense of leaving off music began to grow and it was very much beneath the surface (redundantly), noticed far later afterwards, almost a surprise, never intended it purposefully... When it did start to hit me, there was a great deal of sadness, here I was now facing the greatest horror of my life, the greatest fear ... that I would never attain to all that I thought I was created to do, play music. What will become of me? The whole thing was shattering to my whole sense of being, 'purpose' as I had imagined it after so many years.

But the Lord... Ah, what can I say? I still in all honesty do not know ...[i]what[/i] but am just bowled over and full of wonder these days. Have learned in one sense not to 'anticipate' or better 'premeditate' what is up around the corner. The Lord seems quite adept at throwing those curves and changing circumstances just about when you think you got it all pegged and you know what? It is fantastic! Paul's contentment, with Paul's admonishen; "Take heed, lest you fall" It is the most incredible journey, not two weeks ago it was this brutal attacking of the senses, anguish of soul and heart break and ... warfare! And today, wonderful conversation, just by a note from one of our own here, that lifted the spirit to soaring heights and great praise and thanks to God.

Great is the mystery ...

And lest I forget, another that brought forth the same;

Now, my dear son and I, (who asked Jesus into his heart the day I was water baptized, and was baptized with me, Praise God!!) my son and I love to attend baseball games, its such an intimate time for us, and I usually have access to really good seats, and we sit with arms around each other, both eating soft serve ice cream, talking, about life, and analyzing the game...its a wonderful time of fellowship, father and son...love.....and I remember one time, as you might know fans love to drink beer at the game, and one night at the Da Cell (White Sox Park) there was this poor young man, stewed to the gills, hollering, swearing, cursing, "f this and f that, and you s*ck!!", etc etc, and I remember saying to my boy, "look at that, look what alcohol does to ya....bad behavior, rude, do me a favor kid, stay away from the booze, its a bad end"....and he was in total agreement, because this foulness was just taking away from the sweet time we were sharing, and finally I had enough, and said to my boy, "Thats it, daddies had enough, you wait here", and I went down to the three rows below, this drunk kid was next to the field, and I said real evenly, not angry, "Hey bud, how ya doing?...he turned around smiling, and yelled, "Great!!! Go Sox"...and then I said, "brother could you do me a huge favor?"..."sure man, whatever you need"...and then I said, "I got a ten year old boy up there, and I really don't want him to get a foul mouth, so I need your help, could ya just, y'know tone it down, it'd be a huge favor to me".....now this guy was much bigger, but in an instant he shrank, and he looked back, saw my boy, and "oh man, I'm really sorry, I'l stop". I smiled and said, "I thank you brother, God bless you"...and then he said "God bless you too, I'm sorry"....I then said, "its a great game, isnt it?" He smiled and said "yeh!"....I stayed for one more second, and said , "you believe in Jesus?"...he replied, "yeh, I do"....and I said, "Praise God, then you know what to do".

Paul, this guy was as quiet as church mouse after that, and we enjoyed a really great game, and I know that this young man was mightily convicted by a soft firm loving rebuke/request.

What a wonderful accounting, what a wonderful band of peculiar loving misfits.

You'll love this, we had no idea how to dress and not wanting to be out of place, basically put on the closest thing to our 'Sunday best', imagine the shock and horror to find the vast majority decked out in the normal headbanger wear We felt like complete idiots and looked the part!

Ahhh, Mike. That's hilarious! I bet you guys felt pretty awkward! Nowadays, it's pretty much the same in the [i]church[/i] - you come in with a button shirt and tie and just about everyone else is in jeans and shorts and casual shirts. You almost feel like they're thinking, "Who does this guy think he is? Someone special to be wearing a tie?"

I remember Keith Daniel saying that the first thing to occur in a church departing from God is the contamination of the music, then it's the lack of standard in dress, and then, finally, sin and judgment are no longer preached.

Just the facts.

Have only read a couple posts in this thread and I'm not sure where I am coming in in the post here, or who I am going to agree with or throw cold water on, but here is my two cents.

I was saved out of the "wordly" musician lifestyle. I don't believe music is evil, but it can be a tool of either side. And Satan is using this tool to blind the minds of the lost.

I played in a band that sang a song called "Hellbound," and I didn't even think twice about singing it. We played with another band that would light crosses on fire, etc, etc. It is obvious that many stars give themselves freely to the spirit of Antichrist.

I don't want to get on a high horse with this, but the Spirit of God spoke to me very soon after getting saved and I got rid of hundreds of dollars worth of CD's. Rush: "What you own is your own kingdom, What you do is your own glory, What you love is your own power, What you live is your own story, In your head is the answer, Let it guide you along..."

Many, many other CD's were thrown away because the lyrics that I still have memorized today seemed obviously contrary to the Word of God.

I don't make it a point to regularly preach against rock music or any sort of thing like that, as I think the Spirit of God will speak into an individual's life who is genuinely born of the Spirit, but I am saddened at the obviously lack of response to this area in the church as a whole.

I feel solid in this area as I had high aspirations of being a famous drummer, and was big into all the heavy hitters. I am not trying to create a campaign or anything, but I don't get it when Christians who ought to know better get offended when someone brings up true statements about Bono or whoever it is, and he is very obviously saying and doing things that bring forth corrupt fruit.

I would like to type more but that is enough said, I guess. I feel that while I am typing there is already going to be someone who is going to label me a legalist for saying these things. But in all honesty, if you do listen to secular music, which is not all bad, by the way, take an honest look at the message they are saying with their words and with their lives and ask yourself if listening to them would grieve the Spirit and make your brother stumble.

If there is anything at all that might be reinforced around here it would be, do not judge a post by it's title...

Paul, thank you;

I meant to say that when one gains the mind of Christ, the charm, or allurement of these things vanish. There will always be unsaved people that will get their fill of these things. But, as for us, if we were as eternity-conscious as we should be, we would see the true vanity in it all.

I do appreciate all this! But I'm dead to it all. Can you understand?

Yes! Emphatically yes.

Even my job as a funeral director - I like my job, worked hard in school for it, but, alas, my heart isn't in it.

I'm dead to my job.

I have no thrill in any of them. I just don't care, the adrenaline isn't there. It's gone. The only thing I love and read now is God's word.

Think what Paul is expressing here is the matter of the heart, not a superior, above it all temperament, how words can be misconstrued in these parts, even the ones trailing behind me giving off various reactions and mis-communications. There is something dull and null almost, spiritually speaking, to those things that A-muse as MC well pointed out back a few replies ... it's an [i]interior[/i] thing. Perhaps that's why there is often the reaction there is here towards too much ... emphasis on the matters , make that the entanglements of the world, recalling again;

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

It becomes less and less an injunction towards performance based obedience and more and more a settled, conviction of "I get it now", there is just no [i]life[/i] in so much of these things. I am not really sure this 'preaches' well, to hear it is one thing, to have it enter into your heart of hearts and become ... your modus operandi, quite another. Brother, I don't care either anymore and paradoxically I do care greatly about far much greater matters, those inward attributes of honesty, spirit and truth, the development process and character attributes... [i]making disciples[/i] as a disciple and learner.

And the field keeps getting larger, not smaller, more vast an awe inspiring, the very substance ... Still have residing Ravenhill's simple little quote, even in his later years after so much ... [i]life[/i] poured out into Gods service that, "I know next to nothing" (paraphrased). Great emphatic truth!

It gets to a truth of "take it or leave it" ... Ah, that's poor... the emphasis on the later, bluntly speaking it might be, "Nah" not in the negative connotation, [i]can't be bothered[/i] again without the drain of human understanding. My am I struggling here to get this out ...

Paul is elucidating a very important truth of what has us and that which does not. Fasting. What is it but a denial, of the flesh? Not all fasting must need be of food. Experience has shown that an absence, a setting aside, a letting go, a giving over to the Lord ones life means a great deal more than we may aspire to or recognize. It gets very, deeply, personal; "Others may, you cannot", that doesn't set you up as superior or more saintly, it is the root of; "What is that to you, you follow [i]Me[/i]". Have learned that being away from many things for prolonged seasons, to come back and [i]look[/i] upon them is to see them for what they are worth, with new eyes and a different perspective. Abstinence is powerful, think this is far more the ... defining of 'being dead to it all'. It injects a Holy "perhaps" into things, less concerned about being 'right' and far more [i]being[/i] rightly disposed in our makeup and intentions, the redesigning of the disposition that only the Lord can and must do. Contentment slowly, but surely takes place those things that used to hold sway over us and our fickle, flighty emotions. Being humble is a result more than an attribute to be ... crafted ... though it is that to an extent. Practice and imitation, d i s i p l i n e and maybe the greatest of all ...

Suffering. We must learn to suffer some things, many things, it is good for us, it is the way the Lord walked, it is the way of the cross, it seems to be turning out to be less of something we ought to do or is ... Has man or the devil himself made this [i]optional[/i]? In our day? It is the [i]only[/i] way, there is just no getting around it. The Lord did say His burden was light, His yoke was easy and so it is of a truth. And the cross is still painful to every human squealing of quivering flesh ... the spiritual sword that must go through our innermost evils that are buried under mountains of flesh, years of training, the contagion of the world, the allurement of the eyes, pride of life .....

A departure to so called eloquence and seemingly abstract notions here, but all this dying to self is ... Wonderful! Truly it is, it is all the difference in the world to be able to say "I don't care" in the right sense of the word, 'it just doesn't matter' is often the guttural instinct and prayer, only that which God wills is of any import. To say that and mean it ... there is a joining of the two and I am telling you it is by far the greatest thing in life and the life to come, for all eternity. It is great contentment and peace, something that can be tasted here and now. It makes for endurance and enduring saints, [i]no matter what[/i] the particular circumstances, no matter if one was "shipped up the Amazon" or sent to cleanse the wounds of a leper, placed in the corporate world or digging ditches. What difference does it make? You [i]could[/i] and [i]can[/i] be made to be content anywhere at anytime and in all circumstances. It's amazingly incredible and perplexing wonderful. Having great expectations of what the Lord will do is not spurious, it is if we get on the wrong side of James admonishen;

[i]Come now, those saying, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city and spend a year there, and we will trade and will make a profit, who do not know of the morrow. For what is your life? For it is a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then disappears. Instead of you saying, If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that. But now you boast in your presumptions. All such boasting is evil.[/i] Jam 4:13-16 MKJV

Living proof of these things. A handful of years back now, even the last 2 years has seen things change so much ... It's dumbfounding. If there is any particular 'secret' to it all ...

Waiting.
Patience.

Two profound items that my mother would back me to the hilt on, I had little of neither. And so now am I full? Well, lets just honestly admit I am full of a lot things ... Progress is measured by the Architect in our understanding.

Some things are just plain arbitrary, some things have all kinds of subtle attachments, lurking evils, Chambers noted something we may be reluctant to admit to; That God guards us from a great deal that we do not understand and if we are wise enough we won't bother to peer into things that are none of our business. Things below the conscience level, we will [i]never[/i] fully understand ourselves and as he well put it, neither of us would be worth understanding if we could ... that's muddled, maybe it's the attempt at understanding. Getting off track here.

The things that grow dim do so by contrast with a greater Light. Jesus. Ever [i]wonder[/i], just wonder about Him? How impossible it is that some mere man, mere men could have attributed so much to him be just fairy tales, overstated accounting, all the things the world wants to make Him to be? "A good teacher" and all that rubbish and nonsense. Oh it is the height of simplicity to state this for seasoned saints, we [i]know[/i] Him is varying degrees, in development and understanding as He reveals Himself to us, in us ... amazing truth! The new birth ... Everyday is a new design and opportunity for greater understanding. Recognize where we are in this peculiar time\\space continuum?

[i]W o n d e r [/i]. I am telling you, it is this that we have lost in our day, replacing it with a muddy mixture of confusion and [i]alternatives[/i], all sorts of marrying things and merging philosophies ... Paul is right, it is dung! And one doesn't have to misconstrue that to recognize the vast ... replacement that is waiting for those who would just lay hold of it, though He slay me, though He put you through the gears of this worlds screwed up, [i]now[/i], everything [i]now[/i], instant, convenient, microwaved ... delayed gratification? How absurd!

Something better saints, something far and away better.

Mike,

Thank you for sifting through all the muck and verbosity to find the core of what I've been trying to express. You see it, and I really need to work on expressing myself in a more direct, yet unprovocative manner. Too much of what I say on this thing is misconstrued. It can get frustrating! The last thing I want is my brothers thinking I'm some superior, holier-than-thou, blind zealot with his head in the clouds while the earth perishes. Oh no, no, no - not so! Death to the carnal man means life to the spirit man, and the spirit man accomplishes God's will. I just want to do the work God has given me on this planet, to be a good and faithful servant in all the possible ways I can, to bring the glorious knowledge of Christ and rescue the perishing and meet the needs of both the physically and spiritually impoverished. But, alas, for the child of God to radiate the life and light of Christ to the world, he must first be dead to the world and all it contains. Ah, the paradox, the wisdom, the unsearchable glory of God's ways.

Brother Paul

Hi Hal,

Had to backtrack to this, well do I remember these words;

"What you own is your own kingdom, What you do is your own glory, What you love is your own power, What you live is your own story, In your head is the answer, Let it guide you along..."

It is the worlds philosophy without a doubt and yet interesting how we perceive and sort through things.

I am not trying to create a campaign or anything, but I don't get it when Christians who ought to know better get offended when someone brings up true statements about Bono or whoever it is, and he is very obviously saying and doing things that bring forth corrupt fruit.

Guess I am only attempting here to dislodge some of the same presumptions of insinuating one way or the other amongst ourselves. Think this particular thread is tremendous, not controversial at all. Really there isn't all that much 'supporting' of 'worldly' constructs, more a taking apart of it all, looking at it, dissecting it ... What's the alternative? What's the worth of it? Asking and answering questions, finding it really very productive and opening up our channels of honesty ... How we got from [i]there[/i] to [i]here[/i]... Fascinating to me that there is that many of us who have come through this particular way, does the Lord have some particular ... penchant for plucking out specimens to make examples of, from of all things ... [i]The devils music[/i]? ;-)

Sounds about right. :-D

(Side note: Going back to the Rush lyrics ... a great deal of truth in there, [i]IF[/i] your head has been exchanged. Strange, that always sat funny with me, those lines... that sense of, 'this can't possibly be right', my head frightens me... still does :-) )

2 Timothy

12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Suffering. We must learn to suffer some things, many things, it is good for us, it is the way the Lord walked, it is the way of the cross, it seems to be turning out to be less of something we ought to do or is ... Has man or the devil himself made this optional? In our day? It is the only way, there is just no getting around it. The Lord did say His burden was light, His yoke was easy and so it is of a truth. And the cross is still painful to every human squealing of quivering flesh ... the spiritual sword that must go through our innermost evils that are buried under mountains of flesh, years of training, the contagion of the world, the allurement of the eyes, pride of life .....

stirred up some thoughts here, nah, emotions really, the Christian life is a busy life, busy suffering, within and without, from the wiles of satan, the persecutions of this world, the misunderstanding of brethren, from our own sinfulness, the sins of loved ones, very much every bit of what the apostle Paul had laid out in his letters if not more..can't keep up sometimes..

well time to worship..let me join all of God's in spirit wherever you/they are

just thought of one way to overcome suffering, how bout sacrifice of praises..

"this is the day,this is the day which the Lord has made, we will rejoice, we will rejoice and be glad in it.." can y'all hear the children singing this? let's join them..

Zealousness will only become self righteousness if you let your zeal outgrow your growth in grace.

I did a study on psalm 119 and how our "way" is cleansed by God's word.

cannot agree more, always hope to study Ps119 with some contemporary saints, blessed!

God the Holy Ghost convicted me of this rash statement and for that I repent and ask your forgiveness.

Brother Neil, you were forgiven the moment I read the statement. I hold nothing at all, no ill-feelings, nothing at all against you, dear brother. Like I said, it's real easy to be misunderstood and jump the gun on this thing. May the Lord give us the grace needed both to convey and to understand each other with a spirit charity, long-suffering, and Christ-minded wisdom. And may he grant these things to me, first and foremost! No one jumps the gun on this thing more than I do! May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with our spirits!

Neil, I close this with deep Christian love for you,

Brother Paul

don't worry, i don't get easily offended, if you disagree with me, unless it pertains to the cross ;). now i do speak truth most time with zeal and fire because i'm very passionate for His ways. there is nothing wrong with that unless its in the flesh.

i really think your sifting too hard thru my statement. it is really simple, but we humans just like to make things too complicated. i'm not talking about the everyday use of our mind, using it to function for everyday life. yes, its a blessing to be able to have a mind, to be able to understand and know about different things.

i am speaking of human intelectualism that boast. of human knowledge above God, that is look upon as something great and to be praised.

1 Corinthians 2:5-6

5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Spiritual Wisdom

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

as you can see by these verses, paul says the wisdom of this age and rulers come to nothing. so does not matter how smart you are, it leads all to NOTHING. without Christ, human wisdom is so filled with all kinds of self exaltation and pride.

Colossians 2:8

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

and we must becareful of the wisdom of this world. most are according to traditions of men, the philosophies of this world is demonic, it is agaist the word of God. we must becareful paul says of such humanistic wisdom. such wisdom is masquarade as light, and very deceptive, and will get you away from the truth.

God bless

i see your sermon touchy,speaking to the heart rather than the head.the narrow way cannot contain those whose is head,heart,mind and philosophy aren't poor in spirit:those wholly drained such that men call them MAD.they live only one will to do and to endure;these way they got it not by years but by His breathe-the wholly transformation of God.'saints' will be surprise when they realise that the narrow way cannot be widen by alternatives,new-age nor any other new-wine-and-skin wants.the way of the flesh blinds the spiritual eye,stops saints from been violent,bring sins,quench pure love,makes us twice children of hell.
O God keep the saints soul still alive,IJN
(magnus) .tian

I enjoyed reading this blog very much. I remember when I first got saved how the Lord was dealing with me and in this case with my music. I'm so grateful now that I only like to listen to music that praises the Lord.
Not music that has christian in the title and is worldly in nature; but music that is sung unto the Lord and not unto man. I can't see myself rocking out to POD while praising the Lord. The spirit behind that music is not of God, nor are the people that sing it.
I do agree that you both were in the same mind, but not expressing yourselves to each other in a way to be understood in full.
1Corinthians1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
I enjoy coming to these sites of discussion between Christians. The Bible, prayer, and fellowship are key ingrediants to growth in spirit.
1Corinthians3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
There are brothers in my church who have a problem with music. I don't want it to be a stumbling block to them so these sites help in my research to discuss with them on the subject of music.
One question, how do I start a discussion? I want to start one on the subject of "People in my church having trouble giving up worldly music, need advice"
Thank you for taking the time to read my post. God Bless.

Directions for Hating Sin

Direct. I. Labour to know God, and to be affected with his attributes, and always to live as in his sight.—No man can know sin perfectly, because no man can know God perfectly. You can no further know what sin is than you know what God is, whom you sin against; for the formal malignity of sin is relative, as it is against the will and attributes of God. The godly have some knowledge of the malignity of sin, because they have some knowledge of God that is wronged by it. The wicked have no practical, prevalent knowledge of the malignity of sin, because they have no such knowledge of God. They that fear God will fear sinning; they that in their hearts are bold irreverently with God, will, in heart and life, be bold with sin: the atheist, who thinks there is no God thinks there is no sin against him. Nothing in world will tell us so plainly and powerfully of the evil of sin, as the knowledge of the greatness, wisdom goodness, holiness, authority, justice, truth, &c. of God. The sense of his presence, therefore, will revive our sense of sin’s malignity.
Direct. II. Consider well of the office, the bloodshed, and the holy life of Christ.—His office is to expiate sin, and to destroy it. His blood was shed for it: his life condemned it. Love Christ, and you will hate that which caused his death. Love him, and you will love to be made like him, and hate that which is so contrary to Christ. These two great lights will show the odiousness of darkness.

Direct. III. Think well both how holy the office and work of the Holy Ghost is, and how great a mercy it is to us.—Shall God himself, the heavenly light, come down into a sinful heart, to illuminate and purify it? And yet shall I keep my darkness and defilement, in opposition to such wonderful mercy? Though all sin against the Holy Ghost be not the unpardonable blasphemy, yet all is aggravated hereby.

Direct. IV. Know and consider the wonderful love and mercy of God, and think what he has done for you; and you will hate sin, and be ashamed of it. It is an aggravation which makes sin odious even to common reason and ingenuity, that we should offend a God of infinite goodness, who has filled up our lives with mercy. It will grieve you if you have wronged an extraordinary friend: his love and kindness will come into your thoughts, and make you angry with your own unkindness. Here look over the catalogue of God’s mercies to you, for soul and body. And here observe that Satan, in hiding the love of God from you, and tempting you under the pretence of humility to deny his greatest, special mercy, seeks to destroy your repentance and humiliation, also, by hiding the greatest aggravation of your sin.

Direct. V. Think what the soul of man is made for, and should be used to, even to love, obey, and glorify our Maker; and then you will see what sin is, which disables and perverts it.—How excellent, and high, and holy a work are we created for and called to! And should we defile the temple of God? And serve the devil in filthiness and folly, when we should receive, and serve, and magnify our Creator?

Direct. VI. Think well what pure and sweet delights a holy soul may enjoy from God, in his holy service; and then you will see what sin is, which robs him of these delights, and prefers fleshly lusts before them.—O how happily might we perform every duty, and how fruitfully might we serve our Lord, and what delight should we find in his love and acceptation, and the foresight of everlasting blessedness, if it were not for sin; which brings down the soul from the doors of heaven, to wallow with swine in a beloved dunghill!

Direct. VII. Bethink you what a life it is which you must live for ever, if you live in heaven; and what a life the holy ones there now live; and then think whether sin, which is so contrary to it, be not a vile and hateful thing.—Either you would live in heaven, or not. If not, you are not those I speak to. If you would, you know that there is no sinning; no worldly mind, no pride, no passion, no fleshly lust or pleasures there. Oh, did you but see and hear one hour, how those blessed spirits are taken up in loving and magnifying the glorious God in purity and holiness, and how far they are from sin, it would make you loathe sin ever after, and look on sinners as on men in bedlam wallowing naked in their dung. Especially, to think that you hope yourselves to live for ever like those holy spirits; and therefore sin does ill beseem you.

Direct. VIII. Look but to the state and torment of the damned, and think well of the difference betwixt angels and devils, and you may know what sin is.—Angels are pure; devils are polluted: holiness and sin do make the difference. Sin dwells in hell, and holiness in heaven. Remember that every temptation is from the devil, to make you like himself; as every holy motion is from Christ, to mike you like himself. Remember when you sin, that you are learning and imitating of the devil, and are so far like him, John 8:44. And the end of all is, that you may feel his pains. If hell-fire be not good, then sin is not good.

Direct. IX. Look always on sin as one that is ready to die, and consider how all men judge of it at the last.—What do men in heaven say of it? And what do men in hell say of it? And what do men at death say of it? And what do converted souls, or awakened consciences, say of it? Is it then followed with delight and fearlessness as it is now? Is it then applauded? Will any of them speak well of it? Nay, all the world speaks evil of sin in the general now, even when they love and commit the several acts. Will you sin when you are dying?

Direct. X. Look always on sin and judgment together.—Remember that you must answer for it before God, and angels, and all the world; and you will the better know it.

Direct. XI. Look now but upon sickness, poverty, shame, despair, death, and rottenness in the grave, and it may a little help you to know what sin is. These are things within your sight or feeling; you need not faith to tell you of them. And by such effects you might have some little knowledge of the cause.

Direct. XII. Look but upon some eminent, holy persons upon earth, and upon the mad, profane, malignant world; and the difference may tell you in part what sin is.—Is there not an amiableness in a holy, blameless person, that lives in love to God and man, and in the joyful hopes of life eternal? Is not a beastly drunkard or whoremonger, and a raging swearer, and a malicious persecutor, a very deformed, loathsome creature? Is not the mad, confused, ignorant, ungodly state of the world a very pitiful sight? What then is the sin that all this consists in?

Though the principal part of the cure is in turning the will to the hatred of sin, and is done by this discovery of its malignity; yet I shall add a few more directions for the executive part, supposing that what is said already has had its effect.
Direct. I. When you have found out your disease and danger, give up yourselves to Christ as the Saviour and Physician of souls, and to the Holy Ghost as your Sanctifier, remembering that he is sufficient and willing to do the work which he has undertaken.—It is not you that are to be saviours and sanctifiers of yourselves (unless as you work under Christ). But he that has undertaken it, takes it for his glory to perform it.

Direct. II. Yet must you be willing and obedient in applying the remedies prescribed you by Christ, and observing his directions in order to your cure. And you must not be tender, and coy, and fine, and say his is too bitter, and that is too sharp; but trust his love, and skill, and care, and take it as he prescribes it, or gives it you, without any more ado. Say not, It is grievous, and I cannot take it: for he commands you nothing but what is safe, and wholesome, and necessary, and if you cannot take it, must try whether you can bear your sickness, and death, and the fire of hell! Are humiliation, confession, restitution, mortification, and holy diligence worse than hell?

Direct. III. See that you take not part with sin, and wrangle not, or strive not against your Physician, or any that would do you good.—Excusing sin, and heading for and extenuating it, and striving against the Spirit and conscience, and wrangling against ministers and godly friends, and hating reproof, are not the means to be cured and sanctified.

Direct. IV. See that malignity in every one of your particular sins, which you can see and say is in sin in general.—It is a gross deceit of yourselves, if you will speak a great deal of the evil of sin, and see none of this malignity in your pride, and your worldliness, and your passion and peevishness, and our malice and uncharitableness, and your lying, backbiting, slandering, or sinning against conscience for worldly commodity or safety. What self-contradiction is it for a man in prayer to aggravate sin, and when he is reproved for it, to justify or excuse it! This is like him that will speak against treason, and the enemies of the king, but because the traitors are his friends and kindred, will protect or hide them, and take their parts.

Direct. V. Keep as far as you can from those temptations which feed and strengthen the, sins which you would overcome.—Lay siege to your sins, and starve them out, by keeping away the food and fuel which is their maintenance and life.

Direct. VI. Live in the exercise of those graces and duties which are contrary to the sins which you are most in danger of.—For grace and duty are contrary to sin, and kill it, and cure us of it, as the fire cures us of cold, or health of sickness.

Direct. VII. Hearken not to weakening unbelief and distrust, and cast not away the comforts of God, which are your cordials and strength.—It is not a frightful, dejected, despairing frame of mind, that is fittest to resist sin; but it is the encouraging sense of the love of God, and thankful sense of grace received (with a cautious fear).

Direct. VIII. Be always suspicious of carnal self-love, and watch against it.—For that is the burrow or fortress of sin, and the common patron of it; ready to draw you to it, and ready to justify it. We are very prone to be partial in our own cause; as the case of Judah with Tamar, and David when Nathan reproved him in a parable, show. our own passions, our own pride, our own censures, or backbitings, or injurious dealings, our own neglects of duty, seem small, excusable, if not justifiable things to us; whereas we could easily see the faultiness of all these in another, especially in an enemy: when yet we should be best acquainted with ourselves, and we should most love ourselves, and therefore hate our own sins most.

Direct. IX. Bestow your first and chiefest labour to kill sin at the root; to cleanse the heart, which is the fountain; for out of the heart come the evils of the life.—Know which are the master-roots; and bend your greatest care and industry to mortify those: and they are especially these that follow; 1. Ignorance. 2. Unbelief. 3. Inconsiderateness. 4. Selfishness and pride. 5. Fleshliness, in pleasing a brutish appetite, lust, or fantasy. 6. Senseless hard-heartedness and sleepiness in sin.

Direct. X. Account the world and all its pleasures, wealth, and honours, no better than indeed they are, and then Satan will find no bait to catch you. Esteem all as dung with Paul, Philippians 3:8; and no man will sin and sell his soul, for that which he accounts but as dung.

Direct. XI. Keep up above in a heavenly conversation, and then your souls will be always in the light, and as in the sight of God, and taken up with those businesses and delights which put them out of relish with the baits of sin.

Direct. XII. Let christian watchfulness be your daily work; and cherish a preserving, though not a distracting and discouraging fear.

Direct. XIII. Take heed of the first approaches and beginnings of sin. Oh how great a matter does a little of this fire kindle! And if you fall, rise quickly by sound repentance, whatever it may cost you.

Direct. XIV. Make God’s word your only rule and labour diligently to understand it.

Direct. XV. And in doubtful cases, do not easily depart from the unanimous judgment of the generality of the most wise and godly of all ages.

Direct. XVI. In doubtful cases be not passionate or rash, but proceed deliberately, and prove things well, before you fasten on them.

Direct. XVII. Be acquainted with your bodily temperature, and what sin it most inclines you to, and what sin also your calling or living situation leave you most open to, that there your watch may be the stricter.

Direct. XVIII. Keep in a life of holy order, such as God has appointed you to walk in. For there is no preservation for stragglers that keep not rank and file, but forsake the order which God commands them.—And this order lies principally in these points: 1. That you keep in union with the universal church. Separate not from Christ’s body upon any pretence whatever. With the church as regenerate, hold spiritual communion, in faith, love, and holiness with the church as congregate and visible, hold outward communion, in profession and worship. 2. If you are not teachers, live under your particular, faithful pastors, as obedient disciples of Christ. 3. Let the most godly, if possible, be your familiars. 4. Be laborious in an outward calling.

Direct. XIX. Turn all God’s providences, whether of prosperity or adversity, against your sins.—If he gives you health and wealth, remember he thereby obliges you to obedience, and calls for special service from you. If he afflict you, remember that it is sin that he is offended at, and searches after; and therefore take it as his medicine, and see that you hinder not, but help on its work, that it may purge away your sin.

Direct. XX. Wait patiently on Christ till he has finished the cure, which will not be till this trying life be finished.—Persevere in attendance on his Spirit and means; for he will come in season, and will not tarry. “Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning, and he shall come unto us as the rain: as the latter and former rain upon the earth,” Hosea 6:3. Though you have oft said, “There is no healing,” Jeremiah 14:19; “He will heal your backslidings, and love you freely,” Hosea 14:4. “Unto you that fear his name, shall the Sun of righteousness arise, with healing in his wings,” Malachi 4:2: ” and blessed are all they that wait for him,” Isa. 30:18.

Thus I have given such directions as may help for humiliation under sin, or hatred of it, and deliverance from it.