Future sins forgiven already?

Although OSAS has been covered in this forum, I have not seen one aspect of this teaching covered. That is having your sins, past, present, and yet committed, forgiven upon one act of faith. I can find no scriptural reference to future sins being already forgiven by a previous appropriation of faith. And this seems to be in direct conflict with a parable that Jesus told in Matthew 18.

21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"

22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.

25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'

27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'

29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'

30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.

32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

33'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

This debtor in the parable clearly represents a believer for he threw himself upon the mercy of the king and his debt was cleared. Yet when the king learned of his unforgiveness, he became wrathful and handed him over to the torturers "until he should repay all that was owed him." How can our heavenly Father "do the same to [us]" if our sins are already forgiven upon one act of faith in the past? I don't find the Bible ever presenting the fact that a believer must sin and that those sins are already forgiven but only IF we sin, we have an advocate and IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrightousness.

What do you think?

I noticed this is your first post, so welcome to the site. You will find a wealth of resources on this site that will cause you to grow and mature in the things of God.

Once saved always saved (OSAS)is popular, but not scriptural.

Not only in the scripture you quoted but in Hebrews 10 v38-39 it says, 'Now the just shall live by faith, but if anyone draw back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

39: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

You can't draw back unless you first went forward. By that I mean coming to Christ for salvation, not just going forward in a meeting.

We can lose our salvation.

If not, people would just sin from now until kingdom come (literally), and then, with all that sordidness resting upon them, expect to enter heaven.

Still, that is just my understanding of scripture.

God bless.

I am not an "OSAS" guy, though I don't believe God redeems, and then un-redeems. This aside, I believe that the genuinly born-again child of God is justified from all his sins during the moment of salvation, in that he will not be sent to the lake of fire for them. So he is not condemned for sins, but the things that he did not deal with prior to his death will be dealt with at the Judgment Seat of Christ, where God will burn away all his wood, hay, and stubble, there.

So yes, justified sinners are cleansed from all sins: past, present, and future, but God forbid that we should sin that grace should abound. And that man that abuses this, going on in sin becuase he believes in "once saved, always saved", I don't believe he is fallen from grace, I think he just tasted the heavenly gift, but didn't drink from the fountain.

Luke 7:

[40] And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
[41] There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
[42] And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
[43] Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

I get from this that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. So I may have had more than another prior to salvation, but we are equally justified upon conversion. Both saved by grace through faith. Now if I have more sin than another after conversion, we will not stand equally at the Judgment Seat of Christ. I will not recieve reward as much as the other, and I will not be ruling over heavenly cities like my brother might be.

I am imperfect, this is my stand with what I know of the Scripture, and I am willing to hear anyone whether they agree of disagree in any degree. I just threw that in as I have had many newcomers think I am trying to tell them they are wrong and I am right. I am not. I would love to be proven wrong on any level. You are welcome here, and we want to know what you think regardless of how many of us agree or disagree on doctrine. We all agree on the most important things. No one tramples the blood under foot, praise God!

Welcome to the forum, dear brother!

letsgetbusy i must say you should really search the scriptures. future sins aren't forgiven because they don't exist. A sin isn't forgiven that doesn't exist. Can i be charged of sins i haven't yet committed? Jesus didn't die for each and every little sin individually. He did once unto sin. All sin generally. So either your forgiven for "sin" or you aren't. The wood hay and stubble that are burnt up are the works we do that produce no fruit. Works that aren't done in the right heart. Silver and gold are found underground where there is hard work and no glory. Wood hay and stubble are easy to gather and everybody can see your collection. It may look like a lot compared to one little precious stone, but it has no value. Also the bible is very clear on the fact that God does as you put it "unredeem" people. i might ask as well... what is the difference in god not "unredeeming" people and osas. They are the same thing to me

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

2pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome * , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

1co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means *, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Brother Matt,

I welcome your disagreement. Let me defend my thoughts.

First, the Scriptures, searched thoroughly, state that Christ paid for all sin, period. Not sins up to that point only, but all sin:

Psalm 130:8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Is there any sin that Jesus did not paid for? If so, what is it?

"Jesus didn't die for each and every little sin individually."

Which of your sins did Jesus not die for?

Jumping ahead - blaphemy of the Holy Ghost is not the rejection of Christ's salvation by the believer, but the rejection of God's redeeming work to the unredeemed. Whatever you believe about this verse, it was not being addressed to to believers, but those who rejected Christ completely. I agree with your wood, hay, vs precious stone analogy.

I don't see any evidence of salvation in the 2nd Peter passage. Just knowing how to get saved, having a seed planted in your heart and considering it, doesn't save. The seed that is allowed to grow does. The fruit doesn't save, it is evidence of the salvation. The fruit is evidence of what you can't see; the well-watered, grounded root.

"what is the difference in god not "unredeeming" people and osas. They are the same thing to me"

What I meant by this is I don't preach the OSAS message, the way it is generally preached today. There is never anywhere in the Scriptures where God says, 'do this to be saved, but you can stop there if you want and still be saved, even though I want you to be crucified with Me.'

The same God that draws us to be saved, draws us to pick up our cross. And where I seperate from the modern way of OSAS thinking is that I believe there are MILLIONS of people who think they can come take a quick swig of living water, and run out the door before being issued a cross, and they are okay. When the reality of it is they had a good seed that was choked out when they considered what Christ asks for.

Many of those people, they came forward at a meeting with tears, turned some bad habits over, but then reverted a couple months down the road; you maybe would say were saved and then fell away. My stance is that they were never saved.

I have no problem with your stance, by the way, I think that realizing that individual is not saved now is something we both agree on. I say he never was, you say he was and isn't now. I would not go round and round with someone about that. You say wait and see if he falls away, and I say wait and see if the seed really took root. Now let's go plant and water, brother.

Paul's 1 Cor 9 was just simply stating that it would be a joke for him to be like the man from four chapters earlier, and being a drunk or an adulterer, and try to "preach to others." I know the Greek word here is also translated 'reprobate.' But Paul also said he would be condemned for his brethren that they might be converted. But in reality, his condemnation wouldn't do anything, he was just making an extreme statement. Similarly here, he is just saying his preaching with a sinful life would be like placing dung next to the stream and inviting others to drink.

As far as the 1 Cor 10 goes, I don't think the wilderness is talking solely about salvation. After all, Jesus went into the wilderness after being baptized with the Holy Ghost to be tempted. Israel was sent into the wilderness after being baptized in the Red Sea, to be tempted. Jesus came out of the wilderness full of the Holy Ghost. So I see this more as a testing of the genuine convert, more than an apostacy issue. Even if I believed you could be un-redeemed, I would not point to this passage. The wilderness is always used to try God's people, not unsave them. If you know of a biblical reference to prove me wrong, please point me there.

I look forward to reading your response and continuing the discussion later, dear brother. I have to go.

Brother Hal,

Thank you for your insight and your welcoming me. Rather than tarry off into other "proof texts" I would like to bring it back to the parable in Matthew 18. I understand that you believe that all sins, whether past, present, or future, are forgiven upon coversion but I do not see how that could be understood in light of what this parable says. I've read several commentaries on the passage and have come up with some basic interpretations, contrary to my own, of the end result. Here are three:

1. The debtor wasn't actually a believer because no believer would behave in such a manner after having been shown such an act of mercy.

The problem with this interpretation is that the debtor was freely and fully forgiven when he threw himself upon the mercy of the king. What forgiveness does an unbeliever have from God? None. Otherwise, it would not be necessary to repent and BELIEVE. And while the debtor should have shown mercy (v. 33), he did not and thus he incurred the wrath of his master.

2. The tormenting represents chatisement from God.

We know the Lord chastises His children but this interpretation is inconsistent for several reasons. One, the eternalness of the torment. The debt was unpayable (v. 25) so we should expect the debt once retracted would be unpayable and thus eternal. Also, the second punishment was much more severe. Before, he was only threatened with being sold into slavery (v. 25) but now he faces torture! Torment until the debt is repaid which I've show from the passage is considered impossible. Are we to assume that our chastisement from God is a much more severe treatment than that before we were regenerated? However, the Bible states a worst fate for those who defect from the faith (2 Peter 2:20-21, Hebrews 10:26-31).

3. The parable was hypothetical.

I don't understand the position of referring to something as hypothetical. It's as if this doesn't have some actual application to us such as "The story is hypothetical. The man was once again punished because of his sin but this is just a hypothetical situation. It doesn't have any practical application to the believer." Jesus certainly applied the parable actually with his words "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you!" The parable is a hypothetical situation in that it is the antecedent clause of a conditional statement (i.e. if so and so, then so and so). "IF you do not forgive, THEN My Heavenly Father will not forgive you."

How can God NOT forgive us for something if future sins are already forgiven? It would be contradictory. The truth is that Jesus' sacrifice was a PROVISION. IF we sin we have an Advocate. IF we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us. The Bible does not promise that forgiveness is incurred before an act is committed.

Thoughts?

Jesus didn't die for each and every little sin individually. He did once unto sin. All sin generally. So either your forgiven for "sin" or you aren't.

Are you talking about salvation from "original sin?" an in...
1 Peter 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
[color=0000FF]4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [/color]
6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls...
13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
[color=0000FF] 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: [/color]
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
[color=0000FF] 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. [/color]
24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
[color=0000FF] 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.[/color]

future sins aren't forgiven because they don't exist. A sin isn't forgiven that doesn't exist. Can i be charged of sins i haven't yet committed?

Although future sins do not yet exist to us finite creatures, are they not known to our Father? And has He not already made remedy?

1 John 1:5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[color=0000FF] 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/color]

If God's gift to me is "incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away," at what point do I corrupt and defile it? Which of my sins, that I am sure to commit and God has already made remedy for, costs me my salvation? Is there any time limit in which I must confess this sin or is it any unconfessed sin that I die with?
I don't know, maybe it's the walking in light thing, either you are or you aren't. ;-)

I would like to humbly throw this in...

People should research the doctrine of Perserverance of the Saints before they post about it. I find most people who bash it as a "liscense to sin" have never even looked at the doctrine in depth. It is not the liscense to sin that some make it out to be. Those who you see living in constant unrepentant sin while claiming "OSAS", very simply, were never born again to begin with.

I praise God that I can rest secure in the peace of His promises of salvation, and these wonderful promises make me want to honor his Holy Name by living in righteousness by His strength!

Hi TaylorOtwell...

Those who you see living in constant unrepentant sin while claiming "OSAS", very simply, were never born again to begin with.

I suppose the "bottom line" is simple: Don't abandon your relationship with Christ or return to a life of sin (2 John 1:8-10).

:-)

i find two groups often at work...those who make it too easy to backslide and those that make it impossible. thank God for the balance of grace in his word...

Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, california has written a great book for study on this subject.
it's called "Calvinism, Arminianism and The Word of God"
filled with scriptures and answers to the most common and complicated questions on the subject on eternal security as well as predestination and our future sins....
thanx and God Bless

I suppose the "bottom line" is simple: Don't abandon your relationship with Christ or return to a life of sin (2 John 1:8-10).

Amen! :-)

Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as * * on us at the beginning.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Ac 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ *; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life

Here paul uses the baptism in the holy ghost to prove the salvation of the gentiles.

Agreeing then that a man that is baptized in the Holy ghost must first be saved, i ask you to consider this.

I brought a man from work release in the jail to church and with tears he confessed his sifulness and asked christ into his heart. We prayed for him and he received the baptism in the holy ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. When jason got out of work release he went right back to the hog pen and has forsaken everything he started to walk. Now, was he baptized in the holy ghost and not saved? did he fake the tongues and we not know? is he still saved now as he embraces the world and its filthiness and avoids God? The answer to all of these is NO.

2pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome * , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

How do you tell me that you don't see salvation in these 2 scriptures? "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the LORD AND SAVIOUR jesus christ, they are AGAIN entangled. If your mind is not open to correction you won't receive it. He that hateth reproof is bruitish.

And once again there is only one way to get your name in the lambs book of life. thats salvation.. agreed?
Re 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Re 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

please also not that the white and washed robes can be once again defiled. Is there any way to clean your garments other than the "washing of water of the word"

Concerning 1 Cor. 10. It doesn't mean the baptism in the holy ghost the the baptism in to death with christ jesus. Deliverance from the bondage of egypt(sin) It also says they drank of that rock jesus christ. They drank of the living water but turned back to idols and vanity.

Was is not by faith that the children of Israel ate the passover and survived the last plague? Did the application of blood save them or where they not altogether counted justified by faith?

Secondly, I have full confidence in my salvation today do you not have full confidence in yours.

Now are you going to tell me that either one of us can now leave off the faith (knowing that perfect faith is more than just belief "for even the devils believe", but true faith including saving faith is "faith wrought together with works" The greek for wrough meaning mixed or mingled.) and go directly back in to my fornications, drugs, lying, stealing and hatred. Knowing that "he that hateth his brother is a murderer and ye know murderer hath eternal life in him.

One last thing. I can't remember who wrote that they were not going to use "proof scripture" but the bible says ...

2ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness:

If you don't use the bible to prove, then your not proving anything.

Now i want to lastly say thank you for your discussions. Iron sharpeneth iron and i really appreciate you guys. Please don't take me as a railer or accuser. I love doctrine and theology so i get into it a lot. I also take a firm stand on what i believe. But know that i also am no fool and desire the instruction of wisdom that correction holds. Thank you with all love and humility.

Good post, brother. I sense a firestorm of challenge in the making. If everyone stays humble and teachable, we should have some good discussions.

Brother Matt,

Addressing your first question, I agree with Leonard Ravehill, that speaking in tongues proves nothing. Mormons, Muslims, and many cults speak in tongues. Missionaries, according to Ravenhill, have been heard to speak English around the fire while dancing. The only evidence of the Holy Ghost is a holy life. I am not a cessationist or anything like that, but tongues and tears don't prove anything. Wait and look for fruits meet for repentance. The greatest revivals in America and England had no tongues. Many revivals in other countries did have tongues. I am not saying they are not legitimate, I am simply saying they are not the end-all proof of anything. For poor Jason:

"the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."

Adressing 2 Peter, the stony ground / thorny ground hearer in the parable of the sower parallels this individual Peter speaks of:

2 Peter 2: they have escaped the pollutions of the world

Mark 4: when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness

Luke 8: receive the word with joy / when they have heard, go forth

----------

2 Peter 2: they are again entangled therein, and

Mark 4: affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended

Luke 8: these have no root / choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life

----------

2 Peter 2: the latter end is worse with them than the beginning

As far as being brutish, I suppose every theologian, preacher, evangelist, teacher, and professor who doesn't believe in apostacy fit into the brute category, and all that believe in apostacy are more educated (if only Spurgeon had studied a bit more). C'mon, brother, that's a bit low, don't you think.

I would agree that all saints have their names written in the Book of Life.

Ex 32:33 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

I guess we don't have a chance. Oh, wait...

Col 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

I am sorry if it offends you that I don't get the same interpretation from the Rev 3 passage. I hear Jesus saying he won't damn the saved. So actually I hear the opposite of what you are trying to prove with it. I hear him saying He won't cast out those who He has redeemed.

On 1 Cor 10, are you then saying that God puts His people in the wilderness to unsave the redeemed whose faith isn't pure?

"Now are you going to tell me that either one of us can now leave off the faith...and go directly back in to my fornications, drugs, lying, stealing and hatred"

No. I don't mean that, and I think you know I didn't say that. What I said about the person who does this, was that they were never saved. You say they fell away, I say they never had the Word rooted in their heart.

I will end with this question. To what degree of obediance does God demand of us for us to keep our salvation if salvation can be lost? Show me with Scripture references, please.

Until next time in the never-ending debate...

euangelion,

What I see in this illustration is that the man was not sorrowful for his debt, until he was going to be thrown into jail. Who wouldn't be. Satan himself would be foolish not to say he was sorry. So the man's attitude shows nothing. (...many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord). His worship shows nothing. Just an empty gesture to save his neck under pressure (like many do under a heavy sermon).

And notice, what the same man said to the king when he was brought the second time: the same words. He thought empty words, which obviously did not show his heart condition, could get him out of a predicament whenever convenient. Just as many think a 'sorry' to God here and there will cover a multitude of sins.

So I see in this story, one who never turned, never changed, and never was born-again. The forgiveness was offered to him, just as the blood is offered to "every man." Forgiveness is a free gift, but it is not cheap.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

So this man, if viewed through the parable of the sower (Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?), has no fruit, received the king's decision with gladness, and doesn't seem to show any compassion that the king had on him. No evidence of a heart-change on the outside, shows no work of Spirit-birth on the inside.

brother letsgetbusy

my first concern is the offense you took to my "he that hateth reproof is bruitish." i will only say i didn't mean to attack. If you took offense to me please forgive me. If you took offense to the word. ... anyways, i count you as a brother and my intent was not to hurt or throw a cheap shot.

i will use the parable you speak of to make a small demonstration

In the parable of the sower, the stony ground represents those who "receive the word" are paralleled to the man in this parable.

Lu 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Lu 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Lu 14:30 Saying, This * * man began to build, and was not able to finish.

The man BEGAN to build. He just doesn't have what it takes to finish. Paul said "i have ran a good race" and "fight the good fight of faith"

Ga 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you *, whosoever of you are justified by the law; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.

1co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

note that he is speaking of "brothers" not those of this world.

Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Also, in the parable of the sower, the seed that fell among thorny ground is not a backslider. For the bible never said the plant died. Jesus said the plant didn't produce fruit. The word of God grew in the man's life, but it didn't produce any fruit. The plant lived. But the cares and deceitfulness of riches choked out the man from doing the work of the lord. Producing no fruit and thereby not pleasing god. So it is rejected.

Were the galatians christians?
Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Ga 4:8 Howbeit then *, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage ?
Ga 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Ga 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain

1ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1ti 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
1ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

Re 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Re 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Jesus can't spew you out of his mouth unless you are first in him.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Note here that is says the blood of the covenant wherewith he was SANCTIFIED. Meaning a man who was sanctified. the same as in 2 peter 2.

Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid *.
Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

1co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Now tell me notwithstanding, are you saved? Are you sure your saved... if you say yes, then are you telling me that it is impossible for you to fall. This theory of yours, if it were true, would mean a man would never be able to have true assurance that he was saved. If you say you have this assurance in yourself, then you would be telling me that you could do anything you wanted fearlessly and go to Heaven. This can't be the truth.

Jas 5:9 Grudge not one against another *, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

A man is not a brother unless he is saved. So how can a brother be condemned?

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
This speaks of members of the body of christ which are unpleasing to god being taken away.

To answer your question about where the line of backsliding is, I can't draw the line. But this I know. God is a perfect judge. And he will judge that.

in all honest... as meditating up my own post. I feel God revealed to me a view i haven't quite seen. I feel i in some way understand your view notwithstanding, and if you view is what the lord just shown me, then i to an extent agree with you. but i say, it would be very difficult for me to even put into words. Its like my spirit gets it but how to put it into the flesh i don't get.

I will for now end my part of this discussion saying that i have been given revelation. I can't say whether i fully agree with you or not notwithstanding. This is because the revelation i got is so hard to explain, i can't tell if thats what you believe or not, but it does seem similar to what i am feeling. I can say this. Praise God for giving me new understanding. Thank you so much notwithstanding for challenging me to search the word and spirit. You have yielded fruit in my life today, and i'm excited to search this matter out more!!! So until i can find a way to explain it... God bless.

I do want to say i don't take back what i said in my other posts. I just feel i have been given deeper understanding on the subject.

Just a thought to share on OSAS:

This is what I believe, salvation is a privilege and not RIGHTS.

A privilege is something that is granted to you by someone who has authority over you.

On the other hand, a right is something that you are born with and that cannot be taken away from you by anyone. (right to live)

Credit cards are privilege cards. The bank/company that issued it allows the holder to use it as long as they (bank/company) see it fit. If the bank/company sees any reason to cancel the card, the card holder will not have any rights to say no.

Now, the same thing with our salvation. Our salvation is a privilege and NOT RIGHTS.

You might say why did God saved people then let them perish at the end. Biblically, it is not God who allows people to perish but people themselves choose the path of eternal death. But to answer the question, God allows people to see & taste His grace, love, mercy, goodness, etc so that at the end no one can will have an excuse saying that he/she is not given a chance to be saved.

Peopel perish beacuse they chose too; so its God's judgment to them.

Romans 1:28 (KJV) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Romans 1:20 (KJV) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Then again, you might ask again, isn’t it salvation is by grace? TOTALLY AGREE! But do you think, God extends His SAVING GRACE in a vacuum? I strongly believe NO. The Bible tells us “It is by grace THROUGH FAITH that we are saved” (Eph. 2:8). Another thing, for the grace to pass through faith, that faith should alive (not like the Dead Sea – nothing lives & can survive there because it’s dead); this is reference to James talking about dead faith. Nothing can pass through a dead conduit & a dead faith can not save.

Future sins are forgiven:

I believe its in regards to the effectiveness of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross that He can forgive past, present & future sins. But in no means should be used as an excuse saying whatever sin I do anyway God will forgive me. This is a blatant disrespect to the grace & holiness of God.

Romans 1:21-22 (KJV) 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Romans 1:32 (KJV) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED!

I brought a man from work release in the jail to church and with tears he confessed his sifulness and asked christ into his heart. We prayed for him and he received the baptism in the holy ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. When jason got out of work release he went right back to the hog pen and has forsaken everything he started to walk.

Been there, Brother, and it's really heart-wrenching isn't it? There is some kind of crude name given to this type of "salvation" that really is unfair, because there are genuine conversions in prison. But there are alot who just want to 'hedge their bets.' What happens is that the person in prison is sorry that they are in prison and they are sorry that they have messed up in life, but it is not "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation" but "the sorrow of the world worketh death." They think 'maybe if [u][b]I[/b][/u] say all the right things and [u][b]I[/b][/u] do what is expected of [u][b]me[/b][/u], [u][b]I[/b][/u] will do better.' It's the big [u][b]I[/b][/u] worship, which was their problem to begin with, and when they get back into the world and find that they still must face the same problem (themselves), they give it up.

True godly sorrow that leads to salvation bears the fruit of a regeneration, we begin rejoicing and can still rejoice when we face our trials of faith...
"Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"
I don't think a dog returning to its vomit is an illustration of a has-been, but a never-was.
What I get from the verses from 2 Peter is "knowledge" and "known" I don't see "faith,"
but you have given me some things to pray about and ponder. I have to admit, I've felt a bit like a 'butinsky' trying to play with the big boys but I've really enjoyed reading what all of you have had to say. Peace to you, Brother.

If salvation were of grace by faith through works, a person could most assuredly loose the salvation.

Salvation is not anatomically dependant on anything man does. Salvation is a Person. The salvation of a person is in the Lambs book of Life not put there by what the person does. Are we born again? What gives us birth? How is birth confirmed? What causes birth? Does a child have a choice in his birth?

The cause of a birth is seed is put in the receptacle that gives birth. When the seed is placed, life begins, birth is incidental to the placing of the seed. The seed then is a person. If we are person's and must be born again or we cannot see the things of God, what takes place to receive that birth.

1 Peter 1:19-25 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The Seed of God is places in the believer and a new person comes forth, that is Born again of Incorruptable Seed. The salvation of God is now brought forth in rebirth and that rebirth is Spirit, that is the Spirit of Christ in you, a Person, Jesus Christ. A person cannot loose his birth of Christ in him just like he cannot loose his birth into the physical world.

The only way a child is not born into the world is by miscarriage or abortion. Death appears before the manifestation of Birth, so birth never occurs and if so it was not ever birth to start with, so it was not a choice to receive or not receive birth by choice or works, Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So if birth is not of ourselves, and Grace is not of ourselves, and faith is not of ourselves unto salvation, but a Person, The Person of Jesus Christ in you the Hope of Glory, it is not our choice to loose our salvation, we cannot loose something that is not ours to begin with, to present every new man, born again, perfect in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

The old man is dead and he is the only one that would not choose God, so being, could loose salvation which he never possessed.

In Christ: Phillip

abide
believe
repent
James 1:22
James 2:24

I must ask, are you saying we abide in Christ, we believe in Christ, we repent, without our works, we are not saved and without our works we won't stay saved?

Abide: 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

In Christ we abide and we abide in Christ by the anointing, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Col 1:27 - 3:1-4

Believe in Christ: 1 John 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Repent; Only After salvation is repentance available and capable of works unto repentance in Christ.

2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

The Faith of God without the Works of God does not exist.

The same goes for man, repentance before salvation is only dead works. The Works of God wrought in believers through faith is Gods true Work of salvation. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We are dead to, "laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works," and by the Christ in us we live a life pleasing to God through Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The are works, working out our salvation with fear and trembling. His Works in us by our obedience and Love for Him are the works of faith. You cannot separate works from faith if Christ is Born Again in you. Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

In Christ: Phillip

Bro Matt,

No problem, bro. Let us continue in brotherly love.

To Galatians 5:1-4, I don't see Paul speaking of apostacy, even if I believed in it. I see him saying that you can't be saved by ceremonial law. In today's language: If you are saved by the law, you are not really saved, because you can only be saved by grace, not rite and ceremony. When Paul does use the phrase fallen from grace, he is telling not backslidden Christians, but those who are trying to keep the Law of Moses for salvation.

1 Cor 5, I believe speaks to anyone, Christian or not, anyone in our fellowship that is called a brother. Anyone that names the name of Christ. There are many that are called a brother that were never born of God. Judas surely was called a brother. And keeping himself clean on the surface was not rejected from fellowship, and rightfully so. Non-believers in our congregation still have a usefulness to God as Judas did then.

As far as turning aside to Satan, Jesus called Peter 'Satan' after Peter had told Jesus that He was "the Christ, the Son of the living God." I haven't made my mind up on all that, but I believe that many get intangled in sin without losing their salvation. Again, even if I believed in apostacy, I would not think that Paul is saying in all these verses you have posted that they "fell from grace."

For Rev 3, these were never absorbed into the body of Christ. They passed through His jaws, maybe were crushed and sorrowful, but by and by were not able to be nourishing to His body. They were not a spiritual "egg" or "bread", but a spiritual "scorpion" or a "stone." Capable of passing into His stomach, but were vomited out once their true condition was discovered. Now they are not only rejected, but now they are spiritually disgusting, and worse off that their original condition.

Now coming to Heb 10, this is one of the verses that does seem to have strength to your argument. Paul does seem to be addressing believers. I don't have an argument against this one, but it is still not enough to turn me the other way from all the other verses I read. Believe me, I believe in eternal security, not because of what my church believes or what I was taught, but what I read in the Word of God and what the Spirit bears witness to my spirit. And honestly, there are some verses that make me curious, but many more firm up what I believe now.

Galatians 2: Paul is just stating you still sin as a child of God when you reject God's commands.

1 Cor 10: If you fall, just get upon again and walk with your Lord. I don't know anyone who has not been snared in some sin after their salvation. Anyone who hasn't needs their picture on the homepage of this site.

I am sure of my salvation, I have not always been. I was scared out of my wits that it wasn't real. So I devoured the Word of God and committed myself to do what it said. But works still isn't of any grace. And grace can't have any works added to it, or it is not grace. I am no more saved than I was 4 years ago. More mature in Christ, but no more a son of God than I was then. I think if I had done whatever I wanted, it just would have shown the seed of God was never firmly planted in me.

For James 5, the Greek 'katakrino' is used as a judgment of men and of God in the NT. It is a reasonable argument, but again, not enough to sway me the other way.

I believe that John 15 is talking about temptation, tribulation, and persecution that strenghthen the believer. Even Wesley spoke this in his commentary. Henry spoke of these branches as false converts.

The point in me asking about what degree of obediance it takes to keep from falling, is to show that no where in Scripture does God ever give a half-standard. He demands us to repent, demands us to believe, demands our very lives. So one of the reasons (just one) that I don't buy into apostacy due to sinful living after genuine justification is that there is no biblical guidance for how much sin "unsaves" you. So again, we look at that man who made a profession, but went back to the world; you say he fell, I say he never was born. So be it.

As far as shaping my opinion, that is one of the main reasons I am here. Our discussions often bring light to many Scriptures I haven't dug into, or ones that need to be re-studied. I welcome all your convinctions and views on the matter. God bless until next time.

christinyou,

i appreciate your observation of some of the scriptures i mentioned. If there are scriptures that directly prove you beliefs are imperfect, it doesn't mean you are completely wrong. I think that you need to pray and meditate on this. I have been given a great revelation to this subject. I have also been given more confidence in my faith. I believe you may find that i am not completely wrong.

concerning the galatians. please pay close attention to 3:3 where they "began" in the spirit and try to be "perfected" by the law. This is where they "fell" from grace back into bondage. rebuilding what they had been delivered from.

So you tell me your saved for sure. I tell you i agree. So by that you tell me you can do whatever you want and you won't be rejected from heaven. I say don't agree. If you tell me you can still be rejected from heaven, then you tell me you aren't positive your saved. This is not the outline God drew out in scripture for salvation. Because if you can't be positive, then you don't have faith. I am positive i am saved. I am positive if i die right now i will enter into heaven. But if i don't "keep my garments spotless." I can defile myself with this world. This doesn't mean i wasn't truly saved to begin with.

This is the revelation i received.

Yes god does give us trials (as in 1 cor 10) to test whether our hearts received the word properly or not. And whether we are the good soil, rocky, or unfruitful. Yes, i believe these trials and tests will prove what manner of heart we had when we received the word of god. That i got revelation on and believe. thank you for that help.

However, I do believe a heart can change from its original state. So a hard heart can be softened to a fertile heart. A choked heart can be thinned down to a fertile heart. But a fertile heart can be hardened by lust and desire for something new in life. While the person had a fertile heart in the beginning. They will now harden their heart away from god to work disobedience. You say that the person then was never really a fertile heart. I say that the heart was fertile, it just didn't stay fertile at the oppurtunity to sin. "let he that thinketh he stand take heed, lest he fall."

Thank you notwithstanding. especially for considering truthfully all of the views an scriptures i express with an open mind.

the question is this, can a fertile soil be hardened or grow weeds.

This is my view of your question; I don't see a Scripture that clearly describes an honestly reborn heart turning to the world. Judas would have been a prime candidate to paint a picture of an apostate Christian, but the Scripture is silent on the matter.

I don't see any of the big names in Scripture drawing close to God, and then being given a clear message that they would perish in flame. Many fell from grace, in that they tried to build on their own, instead of building on the Rock.

The closest case I can think of is Lot's wife, but I am not convinced one bit that she ever turned herself over to God. Her two daughters were about as corrupt as could be, so I assume that their mother was not a righteous woman.

Like I said before, dear brother, I have gone over many Scriptures and gone back and forth over all the big ones (fallen from grace, it is impossible once, etc) and when I view these in light of all the other Scriptures, I am not convinced. If I read them alone, I most likely would go the other way.

Now, all this said, the one exception for me, that I am not even yet convinced in myself about, is that I believe there may be a period in the lives of the unsaved where they dwindle in between grace and their own way, but I believe this is still prior to conversion. Like for me, I felt a call from God that had intensifying steps years before I was saved. I would have told you I was a Christian during all the time, but I was not born-again. There was a very strong call from God about 7 months before I was saved where I felt very convicted to give up alcohol (had given up foul language a couple years earlier).

Even after I was born-again, there was a very odd stage that I went through, which I suppose would be likened to the first blades of my greenery pushing up through the soil.

So during that last few months of my unconverted life, knowing God was calling me to something, and definately calling me to Him, I believe I could have apostized at that point, but I had no salvation to lose.

Once I was saved, I was worried it wasn't genuine, but losing what I had was never an issue, it was just being sure what I had received was the real thing. What I found was that there was no magic prayer, work, or leading of a mature Christian necessary. I thought maybe something had been left off, some Biblical precedence that I had missed. What a joy to see that it was just simple repentance and faith.

Outside of the Scriptures, it just seems like folly for God to grant someone salvation, when He knows they are going to lose it. It would seem to bring a bad reputation to His precious Name to grant a genuine Spirit birth, only to have this child slip back into damnation by the child's own decision to turn back to sin.

Aside of the argument, but my opinion of how this comes about: for me, all those that I have seen in my experience (only 4 years), that either claim to have slipped from a one time saved state, to an apostate condition, or obviously are backslidden from something, seem to have the weakest grip on doctrine. I am not saying those who are saved that believe in apostacy (there are many of these that are firm in their faith), but rather those that show signs backsliding from a stony or thorny ground hearer status, have never said those certain words about their former Christian experience, that I hear from the obviously genuine child of God, that convince me they were ever born-again.

So I guess what I am saying is that I see many who end up in a messed-up state, or just get weak in the faith, and they almost always obviously in deep conversation show you they are truly not students of the Word of God. I have to doubt their prayer life, too. I think too many in church building and in Christendom simply rely on what is said during sermons (which isn't necessarily all bad), and never search the Scriptures themselves. They rely on a preacher who may be alright, but spends most of his time on one subject or something, and they have no firm grip on 95% of what makes up our faith.

I am getting on a trail, but what I am trying to say is that it doesn't bother me that you feel differently about this issue, it is when someone does who has no idea why, and this type is usually the most ready to go to blows about it. Like Spurgeon says, they fight for every rusty nail in their particular creed, because that is all they have. It does bother me that so many fall away, and those that don't seem so powerless in the face of sin. So that is why I welcome everyone who debates me on any "in-house" issue because it is just building up our knowledge of the Word.

Let's just make sure we don't get arrogant because we do love the Word, but keep ourselves meek, and instruct in meekness. Sorry for the long post, but I have had to get this off my chest, and this was a fitting discussion. I am going to pray right now for revival in God's people and awakening in the lost. Until next time.

Thanks for the discussion, i in no way hold offence, you have opened my eyes to some things, and there are other things i will still have to way and ponder for some time to come. I believe God has brought this in my life specifically. I have been given much through this discussion. As iron sharpeneth iron...

i do say this one more time though, Do you not, as a christian in your life today, face times when you must make a decision for christ? Once again, if you tell me you are saved and you know your saved. Then you tell me that you can't fall. "Let he that thinketh he stand take heed lest he fall." I would be careful with this theology.

hahaha, in all honesty, even now as i meditate on this i am almost persuaded of you. Not of you only, but of some scripture. But there is still much i can't overlook. lol, you definitely have me searching. :) I am going to go over my points again :)

in reply to my own last post i say this... notwithstanding, i can't overlook the scriptures in hebrews about trodding underfoot the blood of the covenant, or the scriptures iin 2pet 2 about being free from the world and then going back. You can't be free without being saved.

However, you have helped me with amazing insight on the parable of the sower. i will meditate on this for a while i think.

Quote:

""""the question is this, can a fertile soil be hardened or grow weeds.""""

Not when the Husbandman is God and the Seed Planted is the Perfect Seed.

James 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

The precious fruit of the earth are those born again with perfect Seed, Planted in the good ground prepared by the Father of the Vine that bares the perfect Seed, Jesus Christ, the Father plants. That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ born again in the believer, the The Good Earth the Father has prepared to receive the Incorruptable Seed, receiving the Harvest unto Himself by the early and latter rain.

2Ti 2:6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.

God will receive His born again son's unto Himself and He will loose none, or He would make His Son corruptible seed.

Answer to your question; only where the Husbandman has not prepared the ground and the Incorruptable Seed has not been planted. No Birth or new life in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Matt,

I believe I can fall flat on my face, but I am not fallen out of my Father's hand because I made a mistake. A genuine convert has been given a new nature. He still has the old nature which must die daily, but the new nature draws him away from the deceitful lusts. A war between the flesh and the spirit.

Will he still sin? Absolutely. But the genuine convert will be convicted as deeply as the sin is sinful. I have Christian brothers who are a tesimony to this. The sin that besets them could be the subject of their conversation for hours. They commit these things, but then are continually convicted and bothered by the Spirit of God. I believe their true condition (born-again or not born-again) will show in time, by their deliverance from these beseting sins.

I don't think I can fall, when you are speaking of falling out of my Father's hand. I will fall as long as I stand on my own righteousness, but still held in His hand. Only when I sit with Him in heavenly places, and realize He claims victory in every area of my life, and that I just have to let Him live through me, and be vicotious over me and in me, am I victorious over any particular sin or obstacle.

As far as sins past, we are justified from all sin when we are born-again. Many verses make this clear. This single Romans 3 verse taken by itself and applied to justification, would mean we need to get born-again daily. However we are justified from sin; past, present, and future, but sanctified daily, dying daily as we allow the Holy Ghost to control us, only retaining whatever sins we carry on our back when we are free to set them aside at any time (Praise God) through the victory by His blood.

Looking through all the Bible, we see that:

1) we are justified from every thing we have done upon conversion as Jesus paid for the sins of every man, and for all sins, ie: the sins of the whole world

2) we will, however, come to judgment for the deeds done in the body whether good or evil, and be salted with fire, and our works made manisfest here, what sins we retained, ie: hung onto, and what sins we remitted, ie: let go

3) these remaining sins will not be charged against us to condemn us since we are under grace (justified) , but will limit our reward in the coming Kingdom according to the power that worked in us (growth in sanctification)

Maybe explaining what grace is, as I read it in Scripture will help. When you say that you are in a "grace period" you are basically saying you are free to do what you want. Paul speaks of this in Romans, saying that we are under the law of faith, by God's grace. Able to sin, but not wanting to. Capable of sin, but not in the same bondage of the unsaved. Sinning often, but growing in sanctification by the Holy Ghost. Growing in grace and wisdom, just as Jesus grew in wisdom, and in favor with God and man.

I think that we are going round and round with this issue because we have not defined what we are talking about. Justified: easy way to remember this - just if I'd - never sinned. Sanctified is the process of growing in grace. No one has to keep justification, it is paid in full. The argument is over sanctification. Some say, I assume, that if you don't grow in sanctification, you then lose your justification. My stand is that God wouldn't waste time sanctifying a vessel that He did not choose, ordain, and elect from the foundation of the world that he knew before it was in the womb. God's omniscience makes me disbelieve in apostacy of the genuine convert. I can't see Him placing the Spirit of Himself in a vessel that will be cast into the same condemnation as Satan himself.

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Did God force Judas to be a devil? No.

"That thou doest, do quickly." I other words, 'what you do, go and do it quickly.'

Doesn't it seem like if apostacy of the genuine convert is possible, that we would have at least one solid Biblical example to show us what not to do?

freecd,

I agree with everything except those few words about future disobediance. No one is obediant, even Paul said what I know I ought to do I don't do, and what I should do I don't. We are all as an unclean thing. I agree that atonement is one condition of our salvation.

Here is a verse that just dawned on me to support the impossiblity of apostacy to the genuine convert.

What did Jesus say to those who claimed they had prophesied, cast out demons, and done wonderful works?

Did He reply, "Depart from me, for some of you supped with me, but anon have forsaken me for this present world"?

No. But rather:

"I NEVER knew you." (Paraphrased)

ADDITION: Reading over the Greek, it is more literally like Him saying, I don't know where you are from. If He had known these, He would have been familiar with them, but His language is expressing that not only does he not know them, but he doesn't even know where they came from, what place they traveled from even though they call Him their Lord.

Matthew Henry's interpretation: "I know you not; you do not belong to my family."

Now I have to be honest in that all the big boys did not agree on this interpretation, as this was Wesley's interpretation: I know not, that is, I approve not of your ways.

As much as I admire Mr. Wesley, I must disagree with him here. My interpretation of this verse, if put into modern day vernacular: 'I never knew you.'

freecd, thank your for those scriptures.

Saul is a perfect example in departing from God.

Was ham not cursed? did God preserve ham because he was wicked?

Every day we make a decision to follow christ. I can change my decision right now if i want to. So can you. Thats why its called a decision. You must make a decision. Every day you face temptation you must make a decision. You think you can't fall away from God no matter what you do notwithstanding, but i say "let he that thinketh he stand take heed, lest he fall."

2pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was WASHED to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden UNDER foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Both of these scriptures prove a clean soul. Is there a clean soul outside of salvation? This proves after salvation and sanctification, one can be defiled. God won't receive defiled. We must keep our garments white.

1co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid *.
1co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one * * flesh.
1co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

If a member of the body of christ joins himself to a harlot and does not repent. Will he in any way enter into the kingdom of God? Or has he returned to his vomit, and made the blood of the covenant of no effect?

The fertile soil can be hardened. The incorruptible seed cannot, but you can stop serving that new man in you and start serving the old man.

o 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid *.
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Ro 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

This shows that a man that is dead to sin and alive to christ can stop serving righteousness and return to yielding themselves to the flesh. And if we yield ourselves again to the flesh, we are become servants of sin unto death.

Also

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be DESTROYED, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The word translated destroyed here is different than most other places in the bible. rather than the greek word ajpovllumi Apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); it is the greek word

katargevw Katargeo (kat-arg-eh'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 2673

1 to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
to deprive of force, influence, power

2 to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
to cease, to pass away, be done away
to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
to terminate all intercourse with one

I believe the old man is only made inactive. He is not gone, as any christian can attest two, he is dead, but he can be revived. If we revive him and obey him, we are his servants unto death.

Quote:

""""Yes, Jesus was raised for our justification, and He becomes our righteousness. But forgiveness and justification are offered to those who choose to turn from darkness to light, from the power of Satan to the power of God. These things are not imputed to us or accounted ours until we repent, turn from our wicked ways, and believe and obey God.""""

God has made Christ in you the righteousness of God by the Christ He has birthed in you. Redemption and sanctification are made by the Father who has placed the Seed of His Son, Jesus Christ Himself in the new believing creature. How can one repent when he knows not what to repent of? Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

This repent is after salvation which comes by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. Then to repent is a change of mind and heart by the Birthing of Christ Himself in the believer by the Holy Spirit, and receiving the Holy Spirit Himself as the Renewer of our Mind, which is now the Mind of Christ. Now we can repent and change our mind to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit. Repent: 3340. metanoeo
Search for G3340 in KJVSL
metanoew metanoeo met-an-o-eh'-o

from 3326 and 3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):--repent.

The Repentance of John's Baptism is unto Israel for their rejection of Jesus Christ.

Mark 1:3-5 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

This repentance if for sin and the receiving the One that will baptize them in the Holy Spirit. Not baptism for the remission of sin. Repentance: 3341. metanoia
Search for G3341 in KJVSL
metanoia metanoia met-an'-oy-ah

from 3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision):--repentance.

This is for Israel who needed to repent of the sin of refusing the Son of God. Some believed on the Son of God and received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Most did not and crucified The Son of Glory.

Repenting for salvation is not necessary, only believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and this is what Jesus will build His Church upon. Then the changing of the mind to the Mind of Christ is the only repentance we have and it can only begin after the Mind of Christ and the Spirit of Christ has been born again in the believer. Then The Holy Spirit will bring all truth that Jesus Christ has said to the believer.
Repent and be baptized in water is not a prerequisite for salvation, only believe.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

What is the rock? Matthew 16:15-17 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

"Thou art the Christ,the Son of theliving God."
This is the Living Rock, The Chief Corner Stone, The foundation Stone the builders rejected. This is the repentance of the sin only Israel could commit. The New believer needs only to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and you will be saved and in believing "all this will be added unto you." Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Luk 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Proverbs 3:1-11 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

Who are now son's of God? Jhn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on His name:

Romans 8:14-16 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; (the Law unto sin) but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, (the law of Life in Christ Jesus) whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Phl 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

This is not license to sin but license to live a godly Life In Christ Jesus. There is only freedom from sin In Christ Jesus who is our Life and the power of Our Living by the Spirit of Christ directed by the Holy Spirit to truth of this mystery which was never known before the Cross. What a miracle, Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

Repentance is necessary for salvation. Repentance, like you said, is a change of mind. If you just add faith in Christ to the path of the unconverted mind like you hear of so many doing, there is obviously no fruit. But like Cornelius, who was already a godly man, your heart and mind must 'change' from its current condition to that of counting only on Jesus and His payment. Changing from your old way and putting your faith in Christ is repentance.

So, in other words, repentance is changing to faith in Christ from whatever you were doing before.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 16:27-30 I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 26:19-20 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hello...

I heard a friend argue that a former believer that was currently living in sin was "obviously never truly saved to begin with." I asked my friend if he was ever tempted. He replied, "Of course." I asked him if we could use the same judgment about him if he ever fell into temptation -- and publicly declare that he was "never truly saved to begin with."

Needless to say, he didn't like that sort of anecdote.

I suppose that a set of much more pressing questions exist:

- Does "free will" continue once a person has embraced Christ?
- Can such a person CHOOSE to walk away from Christ and return to a life of sin?
- What happens if a "believer" is trapped in gross sin (adultery, pornography, lust, etc...) AFTER that person has come to Christ?
- Is a person "saved" if he once gave his life to Christ but now continually lives to please himself?

I know of a friend from my youth group that served God wholeheartedly as a teen. I knew him well in high school (we were both quite popular), and his conversion was dramatic. He completely rejected his old life and began life as a believer in Christ. We used to go to the Church to pray when no one else was around. He continued to be a wonderful example of a believer to the other guys in our youth group. But as he entered college, he became enslaved by the sin of lust.

He admitted that he began to commit adultery in his heart after becoming addicted to internet pornography. He then proceeded to commit adultery with a number of girls at the college. The last time I spoke with him, he admitted that he was miserable. He said that he cannot overcome his addiction to lust. He doesn't go to church, and he hardly ever reads his Bible. He told me that his only prayer (besides mealtime) is a cry for mercy and help. While he is willing to be free from his addiction, he said that he doesn't believe that it is possible. He told me that he is completely "bound" by this sin. Yet his parents constantly reassure him that he is still "saved."

But in his heart, he admitted, he knows that he will die in his sin and go to Hell.

- What is the end for such a person?
- Is he saved?
- Was he EVER truly saved?

:-)

Christ will not build His Church on repentance. He said, "He would build His Church on the Revelation of God the Father that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Then we know what to repent of because our mind is now the mind of Christ, and it can be renewed by the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.

Repentance is not what gives us salvation it is God through the believing on the Truth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, If believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is repentance then I agree, it takes repentance for salvation, but it takes revelation to come to that truth, not repentance.

Matthew 16:15-18 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: ((((for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,))) but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Flesh and blood cannot repent unto this revelation. Only after revelation and birth unto a new creature in Christ Jesus can we repent and change our mind.

Repent and be baptized, Is this our salvation? No, that is what Israel had to do when she was offered their King. They could not, even though 3000 were added to the church that day. They had the Holy Spirit but did not know that they had been Born again of the Spirit of Christ and now their repentance would bring their mind to the mind of Christ and their repentance would change their whole religious format and take away the old and all things become new in Christ Jesus. That is why Paul was chosen to bring this Gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory to all that would believe. Who revealed this Gospel to Paul? What did Paul spend his whole life from that revelation to his death doing for the Lord Jesus Christ?

Rom 16:25 Now to Him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Repentance of a man does not make him saved or able to receive the revelation of God. No one can come to the Father but by the Son and No one can believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God unless it is revealed By God. So initial salvation and birthing has nothing to do with repentance or baptism, but believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Then repentance and baptism is of meaning unto working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Believe first, by whom? Second, Receive the Seed of Christ in birthing, by whom? Receive the Holy Spirit teacher, by whom? Not by repentance and baptism.

Acts 28:25-27 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

They could not repent and be baptized, it was impossible, by whose choice and promise.

Acts 28:28-29 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

"Sent Unto The Gentiles", What? Sent. We will hear the salvation of God and we that believe will be saved and then we can repent and be baptized and come to the Knowledge of Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit that is in us forever.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him:

In Christ, repenting every day, and having been baptized into one Spirit, being taught the things of the Kingdom of God which takes birth of the Father. Phillip

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Question? How can a man repent if he cannot see, and what is he supposed to repent of?

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

chris,

First off, I am not glad to have an example like your friend to talk about. I hate sin and I hate it when sin binds anyone, saved or not. So first let me say it is my prayer that he is granted repentance.

- What is the end for such a person?
- Is he saved?
- Was he EVER truly saved?

There are so many possiblities, and truly only the LORD knows. But, the sad truth is that anyone is capable of pulling of acting as a brother in Christ and doing it all in the flesh. I hate to think about the fate of these people, but it is the truth. Judas was never suspected among his brethren, and truth be told, many people would have probably said Judas was a good guy. If you notice Judas was never spoken of badly by the brethren until after the passion.

Your friend may be just saying he is going to hell, but if he is being genuine, he may be one that has never been born again. The other possibility is that he is saved, but his level of sin is producing a hellish conviction by God speaking so jealously to his rebellious soul, that it is shaking him to his core. Of course, I hope he is saved, but in situations like this, honesltly I assume the worst, and our prayers seem that they are more effective if we think that way.

Ciy,

I see that you acknowledged my point. And that point is that repentance at is most basic form is a change. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to a man, but the man must respond, or repent, to receive what God has revealed. All are free to resist what God calls of them, all are free to blaspheme the convinction and reject the enlightening truth that God uncovers. But it is when a man repents from whatever he was doing prior to this revelation, and responds to the nudging of the LORD.

So I would agree that repentance cannot save, but neither can simply acknowledging the truth as it is revealed in the Word of God. Devils believe and tremble. The heart must change. And this change, repentance, is simply responding to the moving of God that you have given us so many verses about.

Repentance is not a work or an addition to faith, it is the turning of the heart to faith in Christ from the power of Satan. From darkness, to light. From sin to union with God.

See if you agree with this: God moves upon a man, revealing things that only God can, and the man responds and believes God, and begins a new walk with the Just One who has redeemed him, seeking His face and His will.

Now read this, which means the same thing, but with the word repent: God moves upon a man, revealing things that only God can, and the man repents and believes God, and begins a new walk with the Just One who has redeemed him, seeking His face and His will.

Then I repented of my sins, and won the victory.

Oh victory in Jesus...

Let me explain my situation. I grew up in church, never doubted that Jesus died on the cross for us, so on and so forth. I highly esteemed Him, was offended when people spoke badly about Him, but that was about it. One day the Holy Spirit moved upon me, and I ran out of the house. Whatever it was wanted me, and I didn't want it. But years later, it was not a new revelation of who Christ was, not anything revolutionary in the message I was listening to, but the man spoke of the hardness of my heart. And the moment, and I mean the very second that I responded, the very second that I repented, realizing that my life was a sham in God's sight, I was instantly born-again. So I didn't need anymore truth, I simply needed to 1) respond to, or 2) repent with what I already knew.

God had spoken to me many times before, convicted me almost continually, but it wasn't until I repented/responded that I was saved. The reason that repent is just a little more accurate is that 'respond' can mean more than 'turn from evil'. I responded to the Holy Spirit by running away the first time. This did nothing for me spiritually. However the second time the Holy Spirit moved upon me, I repented of my dead works.

Another angle: some are living a holy life already, but have never trusted in Christ to pay completely for their sin. Do they still need to repent? Absolutely. They need to repent of their dead works, and put their faith in Christ. Now they continue to live holy lives, but now they have repented of holding up their holy lives as their salvation.

Hope we found some middle ground this time, dear brother.