An (audio/video) History of HOW the Neocons Manuevered America to War in Iraq ...

Now these are most informative to all who'd like to have the timeline straight ...

[b]The War Behind Closed Doors[/b]
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/view/

[b]Rumsfeld's War [/b]
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pentagon/view/

i love the fact that we live in a time where even current events of short history are made into Documentaries ... Such put into perspective what's occuring in these perilous times, and makes some of us with a Christian world view wonder if what's happening is but a catalyst to our Lord revealing Himself miraculously (like in Holy Ghost fired up REVIVAL) of us! ... :-D

[color=FF0000] added 11/30/06

After thinking about this last night i wanted to post this ...

FOR THE RECORD ...

This thread was started as a provision of a history, in the natural realm, of how America came to be at war in Iraq ... i'm not particularly interested in any type of political slants, or the provings or dis-provings of what political party may have conspired to do whatever ...

AGAIN ... we all know who the ultimate evil conspirator is, and he'd like nothing better than to have us fixated on who in the natural conspired to do what, instead of fixating on and pointing the ultimate finger at him for all this evil ...

The only slant i'm interested in is God's and how such dire current events, whom i believe satan is ultimately responsible for (Isa. 14:12, Rev. 12:9) but is allowed by God - or perhaps even orchestrated by God (2 Chron. 20:6, Jer. 27:5&6, Job 12:16, Dan. 4:17), fit into God's supernatural plan and purpose for we His people, in this day and time, toward our ultimate good hopefully bringing us to major REPENTANCE & REVIVAL, and His ultimate glory ... Amen[/color]

It wasn't just the 'neo-cons' who were in agreement that Saddam was a threat:

http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html

Hi letsgetbusy ...

i just saw your post today ...

While the neocons and Kerry are both political opportunist, Kerry is far from being a neocon ...

Amen the neocons weren't the only ones in agreement that Saddam was a threat - but they were the only ones prepared to do something about him unilaterally ... Kerry in his opportunism expressed the point of Saddam's removal with this diplomatic qualifier;

Quote;
"Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances."

The neocons are not diplomats anymore, tho in fact they started out as such in the Democratic Party as liberals who stated that their being "mugged by reality" is what pushed them into the Republican party under Pres. Reagan, where eventually they even morphed past Reagan's strong conservative ideology ...

What were the deciding parts of such "reality" that morphed them into pushing America into war with Iraq? ... The facts that after the fall of the Soviets the increasing economic threat of the EU's agenda to become #1 became more evident, the fragility of our oil supply by Saddam's initial push into Kuwait, and the subsequent subversive destroy America agenda via Saddam's attempt to convert OPEC to a Petro-Euro instead of a Petro-dollar then, and the now Iranian, in collusion with terrorism, attempt of the same, convinced them that America was slipping in it's #1 political and enonomic influence/control of the world, and they were/are right in that assumption, and the neocons are in a desperate attempt to look out for #1, especially when it comes to oil and all following benefits ... The only problem is that what they thought would be an easy securing of Iraq has turned into a nighmare, and while their will has seemingly blown up in their faces i believe God's will in this matter will ever become more evident as time passes ...

Anyhow i've gone on longer than i intended ... Here's some more info on the neocons, who they were/are, and their agenda, altho as stated above with Rumsfeld out and Cheyney the lone one left in the White House, their influence via the outcome of the mid-term elections is greatly diminished if not stopped ...

But then that's neither here nor there now in that what they aspired to do as far as this Iraq war our Lord has allowed, all that remains to be revealed now is how will He get the glory out of all this as His truth/plan keeps marching on ...

[b]What the Heck Is a Neocon?[/b]
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/180

[b]What is a Neo-con? A: A Neoconservative[/b]
http://shockingelk.com/text/neoconservative/

[b]Where Can I Find Out More About
Neoconservatism?[/b]
http://www.newamericancentury.org/

bro Rahman
i watched that video and it is amazing how men can be so easily manipulated by the enemy. however what is even more amazing is that our Lord sees all this and has worked it into His ultimate purpose. indeed Powell, Shinseki and some of the other army bosses saw that a lot of men would be needed to secure iraq after the war which everyone knew wouldn't take too long. that other cat who talked about sending in a force of 50 000, man he was off. anyhow the neocons got what they wanted and some. this thing has ground down into a stalemate, a hole into which billions are being poured into daily. well the premise that the oil would pay for the way certainly isn't talked about any more...

this is certainly being used of God to set us up for the knocking down of our economy and bringing us to repentance. many people will be hurt, but these will be the ones whose faith has not been of Christ in God but of themselves in themselves.

it's amazing to see where all this is going...

I've wondered about this passage in relation to current events. Saddam didn't really seem to be that big of a threat to the US. He was however paying the families of Palestinian suicide bombers who attacked Isreal.

[b]Isaiah 45:1-13[/b]

1 This is what the Lord says to Cyrus, his anointed one,
whose right hand he will empower.
Before him, mighty kings will be paralyzed with fear.
Their fortress gates will be opened,
never to shut again.
2 This is what the Lord says:
“I will go before you, Cyrus,
and level the mountains.[a]
I will smash down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.
3 And I will give you treasures hidden in the darkness—
secret riches.
I will do this so you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, the one who calls you by name.

4 “And why have I called you for this work?
Why did I call you by name when you did not know me?
It is for the sake of Jacob my servant,
Israel my chosen one.
5 I am the Lord;
there is no other God.
I have equipped you for battle,
though you don’t even know me,
6 so all the world from east to west
will know there is no other God.
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

8 “Open up, O heavens,
and pour out your righteousness.
Let the earth open wide
so salvation and righteousness can sprout up together.
I, the Lord, created them.

9 “What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’
10 How terrible it would be if a newborn baby said to its father,
‘Why was I born?’
or if it said to its mother,
‘Why did you make me this way?’”

11 This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel and your Creator:
“Do you question what I do for my children?
Do you give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 I am the one who made the earth
and created people to live on it.
With my hands I stretched out the heavens.
All the stars are at my command.
13 I will raise up Cyrus to fulfill my righteous purpose,
and I will guide his actions.
He will restore my city and free my captive people—
without seeking a reward!
I, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, have spoken!”

Bro Ironman you wrote;
"this is certainly being used of God to set us up for the knocking down of our economy and bringing us to repentance."

Well Doc everybody here knows were both members of the same choir ... :-P

There's so much going on, and the more intense it's becoming the more joy i'm getting ... For yes i do see the opportuning of a REVIVAL to our revival all others, and a refined Church worshipping God in spirit and in truth unencumbered by our present satanic black strings of gross materialism and worldliness, and THE WORK bro! ... HIS HOLY WORK OF HARVEST!!! ... ;-)

markm,

i believe just as the scripture you posted worked toward the good of God's people Israel back then, so does He work Rom. 8: 28-30 toward our benefit in all that we do, and all that is transpiring in our lifetimes ... Tho for some reason, and i believe it to be because of His sensitizing it to me, His hand in our affairs seems much more pronounced than usual!

Hello...

I might suggest that people view any program (particularly from PBS) with great skepticism. There is certainly a strong slant from the program. Additionally, we must remember that the title "neocon" itself has come to represent a demeaning slur by members of the left. I do not know of any conservative that prefers to be called a "neocon" -- particularly with its current negative connotation.

I also feel that there are a great deal of individuals that search for a conspiracy in the realm of politics. From the Kennedy assassination to the current war in Iraq, there are individuals that would blame all historical events on the self serving desires of certain individuals in power. We are not to be like them. We are implored to "test everything and hold onto the good" (I Thess. 5:21). An old cliche says that "history is written by the victors." We must be careful to distinguish (with God's help) between what is [u]truth[/u], what is [u]rumor[/u], and what is [u]propaganda[/u].

I rejoice in the efforts of conservatives (regardless of political affiliation) that try to take a stand concerning certain obvious issues (like those against abortion, homosexual marriage, limitations on religious liberty, etc...). My vote is my voice -- and I choose to apply my voice according to those Biblical standards that I hold most pressing right now. While this causes me to vote more often for Republicans, there are also some Democrats that stand opposed to some of those practices that are embraced by the Democratic Party platform (contract). Democrats such as Casey, Carter and Daley are just as strongly opposed to abortion and gay marriage as some of the most conservative Republicans. However, I often find great difficulty in seperating a candidate from his or her party's platform. This is true for both Republicans and Democrats. There are some extremely liberal Republicans -- like Guiliani, Bloomberg, and Schwarzenegger.

Our allegience is not to a political party -- but to our Father in Heaven. We are also expected to provide for the needs of our families (physical and spiritual). Often, such "protection" can take place through our votes. We are, of course, first of all Christians. Our lives should always reflect this.

:-)

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"I might suggest that people view any program (particularly from PBS) with great skepticism. There is certainly a strong slant from the program."

--- Let me preface by stating my reply is in the spirit of discussion and not argument :-D ... i praise God for your reply because many a subject i believe He has me interested in most saints don't have much to say ...

Amen, i agree about sifting all things thru prayer and asking Holy Spirit's leading in discerning ... Eph.5:6 says, "Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience" ...

So can i ask, "What strong slant did you get from these programs"? ...

If you're coming at these documentaries with glasses tinted by a politically right wing point of view then i think you may have missed the point of this thread ... i'm what many concider a news junkie, and am only interested in the chain of events which are factually listed in these documentaries ... Did you follow day by day the events leading up to our involvement in Iraq 2? ... If so did Holy Spirit twinge your spirit, as He did mine, when it became evident that Pres. Bush (now made clear was at the behest of Rumsfeld & Cheney) seemed to be grasping at straws to go into Iraq? ...

i voted for Pres. Bush twice, for all of the reasons "the so called left" condemns me for by calling me a "RWEC" ... i understood America's reason (9/11) for going into Afghanistan, but suspected that something else was going on when we veered toward Iraq ... That made me begin to wonder to our Lord what was going on ... Eventually i began hearing about the neocons, and that's when i went on a tear to learn all i could about them ... They are not your average, everyday conservatives ... This small group are to the right of Reagan (who i also voted for) ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"Additionally, we must remember that the title "neocon" itself has come to represent a demeaning slur by members of the left. I do not know of any conservative that prefers to be called a "neocon" -- particularly with its current negative connotation."

---Amen again, when it comes to voting i concider myself a Christian-Independent and don't particularly like being labeled a "right wing evangelical conservative" either, but all these terms have become part of the dialogue and i have no problem in using them in discussion for discussions sake ... Also if you look at the division in the Republican Party the Dem's aren't the only ones who refer to the neocons with disdain, even Pat Buchannan does so ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"I also feel that there are a great deal of individuals that search for a conspiracy in the realm of politics. From the Kennedy assassination to the current war in Iraq, there are individuals that would blame all historical events on the self serving desires of certain individuals in power."

---Amen that's me totally, but what sets me apart from those who see this "great conspiracy" as coming from men soley is that i see such men and events as being orchestrated by the original "great conspirator" satan the devil ... All assinations are conspired, all wars are conspired, they just don't suddenly pop up and happen ... If every good and perfect gift to mankind originates from God, then whom does every evil and imperfect gift come from? ...

Christ said in John.8:44 - "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Our world is full of evil, evil men, and lies because it lies in the power of the master conspirator ... The neocon's conpiracy to keep "America 1st by Any Means Necessary" i totally understand from a natural nationalistic point of view, but supernaturally i know it to be of origin from the devil because we're certainly not there for the benefit of Christ kingdom ... i also understand that whatever the devil does fits into God's will and plan, and that all things work together toward His ultimate glorification ... It is from this perspective that i view all of this, and seek to understand just how all this He will use to His Body's good ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"We are not to be like them. We are implored to "test everything and hold onto the good" (I Thess. 5:21). An old cliche says that "history is written by the victors." We must be careful to distinguish (with God's help) between what is truth, what is rumor, and what is propaganda."

---Amen, and i think that's what were doing here ... Eph.5:15 says, "See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise" ... To me that means seeing all things around you by means of Holy Spirit bearing witness with our spirit ... Seek Him and He will not have us ignorant, i'm a witness to this ... Trouble is that many saints are so caught up in ourselves and our own little groups spiritually and politically we can only see the trees (our interests) and not the forest (God's big picture) ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"I rejoice in the efforts of conservatives (regardless of political affiliation) that try to take a stand concerning certain obvious issues (like those against abortion, homosexual marriage, limitations on religious liberty, etc...). My vote is my voice -- and I choose to apply my voice according to those Biblical standards that I hold most pressing right now."

---Amen, we feel the same ... Before i vote i seek God in prayer to lead me in what would be best by His standards for this country He placed me in ... As i say to many a saint our presence in the world is not to save it, but to be a resistance (light) to evil and a preservation (salt) till such a time as He deems this period of grace complete ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"Our allegience is not to a political party -- but to our Father in Heaven ... Our lives should always reflect this."

---AAAAAaaaaaaaaaaa-men!---

PS - These are from another thread: RUMSFELD OUT! ... and are about Dick Cheney ...

THE DARK SIDE
After 9/11, Vice President Richard Cheney seized the initiative. He pushed to expand executive power, transform America's intelligence agencies and bring the war on terror to Iraq. But first he had to take on George Tenet's CIA for control over intelligence.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/view/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/

Again, from a historical point of view, this is also what i remember regarding Cheyney's part in what "the left" refers to as the neocon conspiracy ... It's also interesting that Pres. Bush 41 would have nothing to do with their agenda, and the neocons concidered Pres Clinton a lost cause, but they found their niche and time (post 9/11) under Pres Bush 43, a Pres whom many believed to have been puppeted by Rumsfeld an Cheney ...

Not matter what's believed the bottom line is America and the world now totters on the edge of an unprecedented precipice ... Have we arrived at this point by the mere bumblings of men, or is there a supernatural conspiracy being wrought? :-?

Hi Rahman...

The reason that I warned about the apparent slant from PBS (including NPR and Frontline) is due to the [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/02/arts/television/02public.html?pagewanted=3&ei=5094&en=1085de148e09623c&hp&ex=1115092800&partner=homepage]criticism that PBS has received[/url]. I actually watch PBS and Frontline -- but I view it with healthy skepticism. Typically, I take the information that I gather from the show (including the slant) and then research it even further. For instance, Frontline ran a story about WalMart entitled [url=http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/][i]Is Walmart Good for America[/i][/url]? While the show raised some interesting points about WalMarts pricing policies and its power as a global corporation -- it was far from unbiased. Some argued that the episode should have been simply entitled[url=http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_bartlett/bartlett200411220846.asp] [i]WalMart is BAD for America[/i][/url]!

The media is an interesting thing. Like you, I faithfully follow the "news." I read the newspaper, online sources, and of course, the occassional broadcast. However, there is a definite bias in the media. I took a graduate class in Statistics, and the text provided a scientific poll that showed that 84% of reporters (paper, broudcast and online) voted for John Kerry in 2004. The same poll showed that 89% voted for Gore in 2000. I feel that it is often difficult for these reporters to keep out their opinions of a subject -- particularly if they don't view their opinion as containing bias. But isn't that the case? FoxNews is certainly biased. But the critics that condemn such bias cannot see the greater bias in CNN or MSNBC. The opposite is also true. Additionally, we are to have the mind of Christ. Thus, it is wise to view all news reports with cognative and Biblical skepticism. I'm fairly certain this is the case with you -- but you would also be surprised with the amount of Christians who will BELIEVE ANYTHING. Remember the silly stories about [url=http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/drillingtohell.htm]scientists drilling into Hell[/url]? I attended a Church where the Pastor actually shared the story several times.

Like you, I am neither a conservative nor a liberal. I am a Christian. I vote only after much prayer and reflection. I vote according to my knowledge of the Word of God, the political process and the stands taken by candidates and their respective parties. Since I love my parents, sisters and future wife and children -- I vote in a way that will protect them from a formal governmental embrace of ungodliness. This nation was founded upon strong religious principles, but particularly on an idea of freedom to practice those beliefs. If we were to consider the distance this nation has traveled from its Godly foundation, we would be shocked. Even the most "liberal" founding fathers would be shocked at the ideas pushed by the left -- of legalized abortion, partial birth abortion, homosexual "marriage," forced sex education, removing public displays of faith, the peddling of pornography, sex and violence as "free speech," etc... These founding fathers, if they were aware at how far the nation could fall, would have certainly made provisions to stop such a moral and religious freefall.

Yet with all of the criticism directed at the course this nation has taken, I would never want to live anywhere else. I have traveled abroad. Everytime I do, I am reminded about the blessing that it is to live in this nation. The only hope for this nation -- during good times and bad -- is a revival of yearning for a relationship with the Lord. I long to see the face of God. But I also long to see this same desire in my friends, family, community and nation. I am a patriot -- but only in the sense that I want the best for my nation (and that "best" is Christ). However, I am a Christian first. I especially look out for the good of my family and the Church (I Timothy 5:8; Galations 6:10).

When it comes to political observation, it is important to remember that we typically cannot make any real analysis until after the fact. My graduate thesis was an analysis of the decision making process of the Carter Administration during the Iran Hostage Crisis. I performed a great amount of research -- including interviews with senior members of the Administration. I was surprised at the enormous conflict within the Administration at the time (that wasn't made public for years). However, I also noticed that every man serving in the Administration seemed quite sincere. There was no "conspiracy" to keep the hostages in Iran. All of these men operated in good faith with the intelligence that was presented at the time (which termed out to be both faulty and limited). Likewise, certain members of the media are trying to display some sort of great conspiracy for a war in Iraq? Why? Why would this nation want to go through a long, drawn out conflict? It is sometimes easier to believe a "conspiracy" rather than the notion that the Government simply relied on faulty intelligence. But we must also observe the [u]complete[/u] justification for the war (part of which was conveyed by then-Secretary of State Colin Powell). It was not simply about the actual physical existence of WMDs. It was about the possibility of a madman (Saddam Hussein) eventually possessing them.

Saddam Hussein defied the international community following his agreed upon terms of surrender following the 1991 Gulf War (when he invaded Kuwait). He agreed to allow weapons inspections. But over the course of 12 years, he openly mocked the international community. Saddam Hussein CLAIMED that he was developing WMDs and had every right to do so. As a result, Bill Clinton bombed Iraq on twice occasions. Saddam Hussein attempted an assassination on the elder President Bush during a trip to the Middle East. As a result, Clinton ordered another bombing of Iraq. Saddam Hussein also massacred many thousands of his own citizens (one incident of which resulted in his current death sentence). Saddam Hussein provided large "payments" to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers in Israel. Saddam Hussein was beginning to open dialogue with certain members of Al Quaeda. While Osama and Saddam did not see eye-to-eye on doctrinal issues, Osama would have obviously liked to purchase a WMD from good ol' Saddam. The intelligence of the CIA, Pentagon, and five other nations (Russia, Germany, UK, Israel and Australia) pointed to a possible development (the stage as yet unaware) of WMDs.

I am not saying that the war was politically or morally justifiable. I simply want to remind you that there is certainly [i]another side[/i] to a conspiracy theory about the war in Iraq. What if the Administration was simply relying upon the information that they had at the time?

I agree that there is a greater conspiracy in the world today. It is an ages old conspiracy that attempts to take the minds of men off of the things of God. Today, people go around worry free -- when they should certainly worry about a life (and eternity) without God. Satan can use ANYTHING to get our minds off of a relationship with the Lord. He will use a lust for this world -- or even a lust for religion. He will use success and he will use failure. He will use wealth and he will use poverty. He will use popularity and he will use persecution. He will use education and he will use a lack of knowledge. As long as we have a real relationship with the Lord -- we can overcome and "see through" this conspiracy.

:-)

ccchhhrrriiisss thank God for you! ... you wrote;
"Additionally, we are to have the mind of Christ. Thus, it is wise to view all news reports with cognative and Biblical skepticism. I'm fairly certain this is the case with you -- but you would also be surprised with the amount of Christians who will BELIEVE ANYTHING.

---Amen, tho my experience with many saints is not so much that they'll believe anything, as much as it's been they're either just to plain lazy to first of all diligently seek God for themselves on any kind of clarity spiritually and/or what's happening in current events, or they're brainwashed into easy believism of what someone tells them due to viewing everything thru their own selfish little perspective ...

You gave an example, now i'll give mine ... i'm labeled African-American and am around a great many African-American saints who view everything spiritually, and especially anything political, thru thier skin color, and historical and sometimes even present occasions of racial slight ... We can't soar in the spiritual freedom of Christ for being to busy holding onto what keeps us from soaring ... Some white saints have this problem too, but for different things they hold onto ... i guess you could say all saints do in some way or another, but as you say we're supposed to gain the mind of Christ at the expense of our own ...

It took a little while but eventually Holy Spirit led me to the point where my place in Christ as a Christian took full sway, and it was then that He began to refocus my eyes to the entire forest (this whole wicked system of things) instead of just on my own little tree (oh woe is me look how the rest of the world has restricted me) ...

So no i'm not surprised by saints who'll believe anything ... i'm surprised (pleasantly) by saints who question, who diligently seek God, who study His Word, and who research in a wide variety of venues (when it comes to news) in order to come to some informed view of whats going on ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"If we were to consider the distance this nation has traveled from its Godly foundation, we would be shocked. Even the most "liberal" founding fathers would be shocked at the ideas pushed by the left"

--- Amen again ... i just had such a recent shock of just haow far America has fallen in just the last 100 years via bro Rookies thread: DAYS ARE EVIL II ... Where he posted this link;

THE CENTURY OF SELF 1 - 4
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=THE+CENTURY+OF+SELF+4+OF+4

... for me this just ripped the covers off satan's conspiracy toward his dastardly deeds of luring countless souls into hell spearheaded via his twisted reworkings of the American meanings of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ... This documentary was done by the BBC ... If you feel led of Holy Spirit to give it a listen i'd like to know if you see a liberal slant in this also?

i noted your example of the Frontline piece on Wal-Mart, and yes their are slants all over the place, but as a child of God i recognize the slants both left, right and center, while extracting what i believe Holy Spirit wants me to know ... Frontline also did two pieces called: THE MERCHANTS OF COOL & THE PERSUADERS which i'm sure some liberals thought slanted toward the right for they just straight up revealed how major corporations such as VIACOM (MTV) are just marketing filth to our kids for profit ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"The only hope for this nation -- during good times and bad -- is a revival of yearning for a relationship with the Lord."

---Amen ... now this is the true bottom line ... But isn't it obvious that unless God forces us to our knees via His terrible grace of correction, we ain't going on our own? ... i personally believe that the consequenses of this war will be used by God to His pupose and benefit to us ... i see financial collapse coming to America, and this war as speeding us toward it even sooner than we not embarked ... Gross materialism is what's keeping most of our eyes off Him ... i've watched much of the AF/AM church in America go from "Lord, Please Help Us Gain Our Freedom!" to "Ok Lord Now That We've Got That Can I Now Get The American Dream?"

ccchhhrrriiisss i can honestly say that outside of SI i don't know one other saint interested in REVIVAL, but say PROSPERITY in my circle and suddenly you got a congregation! ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"When it comes to political observation, it is important to remember that we typically cannot make any real analysis until after the fact. My graduate thesis was an analysis of the decision making process of the Carter Administration during the Iran Hostage Crisis. I performed a great amount of research -- including interviews with senior members of the Administration. I was surprised at the enormous conflict within the Administration at the time (that wasn't made public for years). However, I also noticed that every man serving in the Administration seemed quite sincere. There was no "conspiracy" to keep the hostages in Iran. All of these men operated in good faith with the intelligence that was presented at the time (which termed out to be both faulty and limited)."

---Amen i agree, thus the saying "hind sight is always 20/20 ... i'm not saying that all conspiracy theories are valid as in the first meaning of the word, as i think those who think our government flew the planes into or buildings are just plain stupid, as i question the reasoning of some who believe our government was responsible for blowing up the levees during Katrina (tho Watergate was in fact of the first meaning) ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"Likewise, certain members of the media are trying to display some sort of great conspiracy for a war in Iraq? Why? Why would this nation want to go through a long, drawn out conflict? It is sometimes easier to believe a "conspiracy" rather than the notion that the Government simply relied on faulty intelligence. But we must also observe the complete justification for the war (part of which was conveyed by then-Secretary of State Colin Powell). It was not simply about the actual physical existence of WMDs. It was about the possibility of a madman (Saddam Hussein) eventually possessing them."

---But again there are some conspiracies in the sense of the second meaning: to act in harmony toward a common end ... This i believe can be attributed to the neocon agenda, which is/was one far past the status quo conservative agenda ... The neocon agenda of war in Iraq is a surprise to them for i believe they really thought it would be short, sweet and to the point of securing oil for our future, as well as establishing a place for us in the middle east politically, economically and militarily ... Many think the neocon agenda a pack of lies regarding the reasons we're they're because we've built 52 military bases, and a large embassy building ... That says to many that even if we won't be able to stay, our intent was to ...

And as for Saddam eventually possesing nuclear weapons he could sell to Islamic extremist, our CIA reports stated even back on 03 that N Korea was more of a threat in that arena, with Iran up and coming ... Our stated reasons for being in Iraq may be "some truths" but their not "all truths" ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"I am not saying that the war was politically or morally justifiable. I simply want to remind you that there is certainly another side to a conspiracy theory about the war in Iraq. What if the Administration was simply relying upon the information that they had at the time?"

--- Amen ... But as i asked you before, "didn't your spiritual spider senses start to tingle when Pres Bush began in attempting to scare us into this war"? ... Mine did, and i remember thinking "they're grasping at straws here" ... For one thing i remember a report that came out stating that the so called uranium dirt Saddam was supposed to have been getting from Nigeria wasn't the type used in making nuclear weapontry ... i even entertained that Pres Bush was going after Saddam because of his attempting to kill his dad ... It wasn't until i began researching the neocons, and all the subsequent info that's come out about them that i began to expect something larger (in the man sense) and even more sinister (in the satanic sense) ...

i know that i'm laying a lot on you here but if you fell led by Holy Spirit to check this out i'd also be intersted in your take on this, and if you also see a slant here;

THE POWER OF NIGHTMARES 1 - 3
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1037.htm

... this also is a BBC History Documentary of what led up to this current clash between Islam and the so called Christian U.S.

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"I agree that there is a greater conspiracy in the world today. It is an ages old conspiracy that attempts to take the minds of men off of the things of God. Today, people go around worry free -- when they should certainly worry about a life (and eternity) without God. Satan can use ANYTHING to get our minds off of a relationship with the Lord. He will use a lust for this world -- or even a lust for religion. He will use success and he will use failure. He will use wealth and he will use poverty. He will use popularity and he will use persecution. He will use education and he will use a lack of knowledge. As long as we have a real relationship with the Lord -- we can overcome and "see through" this conspiracy."

---AAAAAaaaaaaa-men ... and that's just what our Lord has shown me thus far, how the master conspirator conspires thru men to lead the multitude of mankind into the pit of hell, because we're to busy paying attention to "the natural" to ever get His eyesalve to see what's really going on in the super-natural ...

"Seeing" ... that's what makes this time so crucial to me ... How many saints do you know who fit into the category of being "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked", and don't even know it?

it's good to converse with you here, bless God, and thank you! ... :-D

hey bro Chris
i thank God for your input here, it is good in that we can all learn from eachother provided we are open to doing so.

when the whole case for war was drummed up it vexed me in my spirit in a way i couldn't ignore because it was to me a thing which would complicate things for us down the line. i think though the major source of frustration was not so much the complications or the fact that saddam was not as deadly a threat as some others but that i wasn't looking at it all from the perspective of what God was doing. The rightness/wrongness of this is of no consequence. the thing of gravity which i think gets lost is what God is doing. Creation is for the purpose of revealing the manifold wisdom of God through the Church to the principalities and powers and everything which happens therein serves that purpose. i see where our Lord is taking this nation, toward judgment and this goes for the world in general.

it is interesting how things happen, if i remember right, when Saddam got a bunch of weapons from the U.S. it was Don Rumsfeld who shook his hand, a couple of decades later he prosecuted the war against him! who would have thought? now i look at history in a completely different light and things make sense now. i see the present in a whole new light (hence i'm not tense unlike others) because i see things from God's perspective and His purpose as given to Paul in Ephesians 3.

we live in exciting times, well at least i see it like that anyway because we're headed toward the judgement which precedes what i think we most desire, REVIVAL! Maranatha!

Yet with all of the criticism directed at the course this nation has taken, I would never want to live anywhere else. I have traveled abroad. Everytime I do, I am reminded about the blessing that it is to live in this nation. The only hope for this nation -- during good times and bad -- is a revival of yearning for a relationship with the Lord. I long to see the face of God. But I also long to see this same desire in my friends, family, community and nation. I am a patriot -- but only in the sense that I want the best for my nation (and that "best" is Christ). However, I am a Christian first. I especially look out for the good of my family and the Church (I Timothy 5:8; Galations 6:10).

i'm not sure where you have been around the world but i was born here and grew up in ZImbabwe and in spite of the sorry state Zimbabwe is in, i love that nation dearly and would rather be there for whatever reason. Perhaps it is that my family is there is that our Lord has given me a burden for it. nonetheless there are some blessings about that place which to you would be abstract. i'm sure some of the people in the nations you have visited may feel the same about America. what is it to be blessed in living here that exceeds what is is to be blessed in living elsewhere? i ask this not in a spirit of contention but i always here other Americans keep saying this and have yet to understand why? is it because we have much to eat, gadgets, money, democracy? i think of saints suffering without enough to eat in various nations whose subsistence has become the Lord Himself. those who are persecuted and have learned to lean more totally on Him than we have. those are mighty things bro. i see those a indeed very mighty blessings, much more so than any i have received outside of salvation. oh to come to a point where i lean wholly on the Lord!

perhaps my point of view is a bit slanted having had the experience of growing up elsewhere! :-P nonetheless i praise our Lord for it because He made it so for His own purposes and i hope through it our Lord can speak to us all and prod us to seek Him a bit more.

ultimately bro things will fall apart here and we will have to come to a point where we lean on our Lord totally. i hear of the persecution of our brethren in Ethiopia and so on and the more i am led through the O.T. the more i am convinced that we in America will not be spared the persecutions which our brethren elsewhere have suffered. our nation will crumble around us under His judgement and unless we have our Faith rooted in Him, we too will crumble. The dire situation which is in Zimbabwe (economic collapse) will soon visit our shores here, as i believe our Lord told me, next yr. it will be that much worse because we have that much more. let us not be found wanting in Faith and Trusting our Lord.

I am a patriot -- but only in the sense that I want the best for my nation (and that "best" is Christ). However, I am a Christian first. I especially look out for the good of my family and the Church (I Timothy 5:8; Galations 6:10).

i'm with you bro! let us press on to the deep things of God and learn to see all things in the light of what He is working to do.AMEN.

I was watching the evening news this evening. There was a story about an Iraqi family who now find themselves refugees. They are slowly selling off their positions in order to survive.

This particular family was of mixed marriage. The husband was Sunni, and the wife Shia. I remember a similar news item concerning these mixed marriages. It was about 2 years ago. The wisdom at that time was that because the Sunni and Shia freely mixed with each other there was little to worry about the ability of the people to accept democracy. The evil Saddam Hussein was removed and now we could expect peace.

Now, as I sit in my chair contemplating the turn of events this thought came to mind.

I remembered how the politicians rejoiced about our country's prospects for a decade of budget surpluses. I remembered how in one years time that "truth" evaporated.

Likewise, another "truth" has evaporated. Under the government of Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi people lived in relative peace. Even with the economic sanction burdens placed upon that country by outsiders, they still managed.

Now look at what has happened. Iraq has fallen into a religious war between the Sunni and Shia. The prospects of peace and democracy have evaporated. The prospect of Civil war in two neighboring countries is growing daily. The Middle East is beginning to burn.

I have heard rumors that the United States is considering setting free Tariq Aziz, the former prime minister who served under Saddam. The rumor has it that the United States might support the Baath Party once again. The rumor has it that the United States is planning another coup to upset the current government.

Whether this is true or not, one things seems clear. The recent actions taken by the United States to change the regime of Iraq has only set Satan free to do what is his specialty. He seeks to devour, to destroy the nations of this world.

Isaiah 14:12

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground. You have weakened the nations!"

just a thought on how foolish men are who turn away from their Maker.

In Christ
Jeff

[color=FF0000]After thinking about this last night i wanted to post this ...

FOR THE RECORD ...

This thread was started as a provision of a history, in the natural realm, of how America came to be at war in Iraq ... i'm not particularly interested in any type of political slants, or the provings or dis-provings of what political party may have conspired to do whatever ...

AGAIN ... we all know who the ultimate evil conspirator is, and he'd like nothing better than to have us fixated on who in the natural conspired to do what, instead of fixating on and pointing the ultimate finger at him for all this evil ...

The only slant i'm interested in is God's and how such dire current events, whom i believe satan is ultimately responsible for (Isa. 14:12, Rev. 12:9) but is allowed by God - or perhaps even orchestrated by God (2 Chron. 20:6, Jer. 27:5&6, Job 12:16, Dan. 4:17), fit into God's supernatural plan and purpose for we His people, in this day and time, toward our ultimate good hopefully bringing us to major REPENTANCE & REVIVAL, and His ultimate glory ... Amen :-D [/color]

Bro Jeff you wrote;
"The recent actions taken by the United States to change the regime of Iraq has only set Satan free to do what is his specialty. He seeks to devour, to destroy the nations of this world."

This gives me a chance to again attempt to get my point across ... i believe the actions taken by America, via the neocons, are not their own, nor inspired of themselves, or thought up by them ...

[b]I BELIEVE IT'S ALL SATAN MANIPULATING THE VANITY OF MEN AGAINST THE VANITY OF MEN ...[/b]

It seems we focus on everything and everybody the devil works thru, instead of focusing on the evil source himself ... i thoroughly believe this is one of the reasons the Church is so weak ... Do we truly believe that ours is not a battle against flesh and blood? ...

Satan's already free to do whatever he wants, by Adam's disobedience, until such a time as God abyses him ... Scripture says the the whole world is in his power, and as you pointed out in Isaiah it's he that weakens the nations, until such a time as "the kingdoms of this world (which are now his) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ" - Rev. 11:15

Part of my continuing weirdness is that i now see satan behind everything that's not "oriented to God pleasing" (beginning with myself), including a whole lot of church practises ... You know when it comes to praising, worshipping, adoring and pleasing God it don't take to much more than just "making a joyful noise unto Him", "confessing His name before men" and "loving one another as He loves us and our neighbors as we love ourselves" ... i think that's what the early church knew, and i think we can know it a anew when He removes what distracts us, and corrects us to REPENTANCE & REVIVAL! ... This is what i believe is gonna be birthed for us saints in America out of this present madness - Rom. 8:28

Bottom line: Do we see what satan is doing right now? ... Do we see what God is doing right now in allowing satan to do what he doing? ...

Sadly i think: Not yet ... :-(
Gladly i think: Soon, and very soon! ... :-D

Hi Bartle and Rahman...

Actually, I performed over two years of research into my topic (the decision making of the Carter Administration during the Iran Hostage Crisis). I traveled from Washington to Georgia to California several times. Throughout this journey, I spent time at the Carter/Reagan/Bush/Clinton libraries, the National Archives, and with private interviews with senior members of the Carter Administration (and concurrent officials from the CIA, the Pentagon, etc...). My thesis manuscript has been augmented further and it is currently being prepared for publication. I am also using this thesis as a framework for my current phD dissertation.

Through my research, I examined the decision making process of the Carter Administration during the Iran Hostage Crisis using Graham Allison's three models of foreign policy decision making from his classic [i]Essence of Decision[/i] (in which he explained the Cuban Missile Crisis) within the six phases of the Crisis described by Warren Christopher (President Carter's Deputy Secretary of State).

The "conspiracy" about the release of the American hostages in Iran is called the "October Surprise Conspiracy." I actually included a chapter of this within my augmented thesis manuscript. However, it has been debunked several times by Congress (as recently as the 1992 and 1993 Democratic inquiries). President Carter himself also personally debunked the idea. The final resolution that resulted in the release of the hostages came completely from President Carter (and certain “doves” within his Administration) -- and was made weeks before Reagan was inaugurated. According to the conclusions of [u]every[/u] official (including Democratic) inquiry into the matter, there is simply no evidence that the October 1980 trip to Paris of then Vice Presidential candidate George H. W. Bush had anything to do with a “conspiracy” to delay negotiations.

In the conclusion to my thesis, I argue that it was diplomacy -- and not military actions (or a threat of future military actions) -- that brought an end to the Crisis and the release of the hostages unharmed. Sadly, the Crisis was prolonged because the “hawks” in the Carter Administration chose (and threatened) a military response from the very beginning, while the few historical anecdotes used by the “doves” (particularly Secretary of State Cyrus Vance, Deputy Secretary of State Warren Christopher, and CIA director Stansfield Turner -- of the events of the USS Pueblo, the Angus Ward Incident, etc…) were ignored. The Administration chose a flawed military response (called Operations Rice Bowl and Operation Eagle Claw) because of faulty intelligence. The CIA’s intelligence could not foresee an Islamic Revolution, a storming of the Embassy, the hostages that would be taken, or the problems that would involve a military response. This is eerily similar to the hasty decision to go to war in Iraq.

During the Crisis (and the immediate aftermath), many Americans placed the blame solely upon President Carter. Americans are certainly aware of our military might – and they were aware of self-imposed constraints on military action. Polls indicated that Americans believe that victory could have easily been achieved in Vietnam if the Government had not placed restraints on the use of force (in a hope of not escalating the crisis with China and the Soviet Union). Americans felt the same was true with Iran. Not only did the nation not want to escalate the Crisis, but Carter was most concerned for the safety of the hostages. With the exception of the two day Operation Eagle Claw debacle, and in the face of weakening support, Carter decided to continue diplomacy throughout Crisis. Had a single hostage been killed, the decision was already made to implement a full scale military strike (according to both Carter and Brzezinski).

It wasn’t until after the Carter Administration did Americans become aware of the real “cause” of the Crisis and self-imposed military limitations. First of all, the roots of the Crisis were founded on a history of Western involvement in the region following World War II. The Americans had staged a successful coup d’État in Iran in order to preserve the power of the Shah Pahlavi over the popular (and democratically elected) President Mohammed Mossadegh. The events surrounding “Operation Ajax” were just beginning to become common knowledge in the Middle East. Many Iranians grew tired of the Shah’s brutal reign. Since the U.S. and U.K. virtually installed the Shah into power, the citizens of Iran intrinsically linked the Shah together with the two nations.

The Crisis in the Middle East was also much larger than the hostages in Iran. Of much greater significance was the all encompassing “Islamic Revolution” (and subsequent embrace of radical Islamic extremism) that was changing the nature of the Middle East – and the world. There would no longer be a Cold War “bipolar balance” in the world (of Democracy v. Communism) imposed by the two great powers. This event, along with the failed Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, showed that a [i]third choice[/i] was possible – where a third world nation could choose non-allegiance (or non-compliance). The greatest failure in Iran was the fact that we acted too slowly and with little decisiveness. It conveyed a weakness to the Middle East that still exists to this day.

There are things about the current war in Iraq that we will not know for years to come. Before any real judgment can be made, an examination of the memoirs and records of senior members of the Administration will need to be made. Hopefully, we will have the full account available for examination. Prior to his testimony before the 9/11 Commission, former National Security Advisor Sandy Berger [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A4189-2004Jul21?language=printer]pled guilty to removing and destroying some documents from the National Archives[/url] regarding the Clinton Administration’s [url=http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/04/01/national/w111624S64.DTL]knowledge of 9/11[/url]. The extent of these documents will never be known, but they were obviously important enough that the former National Security Advisor risked his career (and freedom) by traveling to Washington, stealing the documents and [url=http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/04/01/berger.plea/index.html?section=cnn_latest]then hand-destroying them with scissors[/url]. After he pled guilty, he was [url=http://usatoday.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=USATODAY.com+-+Berger+to+pay+%2450%2C000+for+taking+classified+material&expire=&urlID=15468961&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fnews%2Fwashington%2F2005-09-08-berger-sentenced_x.htm&partnerID=1660] fined $50,000 and barred from any access to classified government documents for three years[/url]. Hopefully, no one from the Bush Administration will do likewise.

It is important that we realize that the criticisms that we make about the war in Iraq today might actually change tomorrow. Why? Once we have access to all of the intelligence that was available to the White House, Pentagon, CIA and Congress – we might change our opinions concerning the decisions that were made. There are certainly some pressing questions that should be answered. Why did we go to War so quickly? Why did the Clinton and Bush Administrations (along with the United Nations) allow Iraq to ignore his terms of surrender for so long and allow inspection of weapons facilities? Why did Saddam Hussein publicly claim to be developing and in the possession of WMDs? Why did the US believe that either Iraq had WMDs or was developing WMDs? Was the war even remotely justified? It would be impossible to reach a real conclusion right now – particularly with the voices from both the right and left that have already reached a conclusion.

It is obvious now that the nation of Iraq is in a terrible condition. However, my uncle is in Baghdad right now. He stated to me that most of the nation is no where nearly as uncivil as the media presents. The violence from the “insurgency” is actually confined to a few areas of the nation. While the violence is terrible, the situation is far from anarchy. Thus it is impractical to suggest that the Iraqis were better off during the days of Hussein. As bad as the condition is today, it was in a much worse condition during the days of Saddam Hussein. The deaths at the time did not result from bombs, rockets or suicide bombers. Rather, these executions came from the Government itself. The extent of this brutality will not be fully understood until the nation resolves this crisis peacefully. But even the most ardent anti-war activists in Congress admit that conditions under Hussein were barbaric (to say the least).

Was there a conspiracy or pre-existant plan to go to war in Iraq? There were obviously plans existant concerning a possible scenario (as always exist for hypothetical scenarios). But even if there was an immature urgency for war, the outcome was certainly made in good faith. No person or "architect" wanted to go into war just to throw a nation into chaos. No person wanted to go into war just to have cause a long, drawn out conflict. The reasoning for war has been stated by the Administration, and futher reasoning will certainly come to light in the years following the Administration's exit. Regardless of the reasoning, a good and noble outcome was most certainly hoped for. Whether it was an attempt to stop a regime from developing weapons of mass destruction or to create a free democracy in the Middle East -- the end was certainly admirable. Will the U.S. succeed in this sort of endeavor? The end result is still to be seen and will not be realized for years.

From a completely spiritual perspective, we must strive to stay away from an opinion that is, at best, based upon worldly wisdom. I often find myself wrestling with the line between my relationship with Christ and my involvement with the affairs of this world -- including things that are political in nature. Currently, I feel that I carry my relationship with Christ within every aspect of my “natural life.” My relationship with God influences all areas of my life. This includes my comings and my goings, my beliefs, my relationships and my voting habits. However, I feel that it is very healthy (in a spiritual and natural sense) to be skeptical of everything that we see or hear. I do not cast my lot with the right or with the left. Rather, my allegiance is solely with Christ. As an undergrad, I was taught that the Universe is the result of a cosmic accident – and that life evolved over a period of millions of years. There are some definite conflicts between “accepted” science and Biblical truths. Some believers often seek to find “middle ground” between science and faith. I simply choose to believe God – regardless of what the “accepted” science teaches or “reveals” or what my “natural mind” wants to believe. I learned a long time ago that I must be skeptical and “test everything” in regards to the “accepted” truths of this world (and even the “accepted” truths of the Church).

My desire for this nation is not that they merely become “moral” or “religious” people. While this would be advantageous for the impedance of obvious sin and filth – it does not answer any sort of real spiritual problem. A moral people will still go to Hell. This nation needs a true revival. My desire for my country is that they freely hunger for a real relationship with God. This nation needs a genuine [u]desire[/u] to know the Lord. This cannot come about through legislation. But legislation can serve to protect the ability of a people to freely seek God (both publicly and privately). Of course, we can seek God in secret (like those citizens living under the dominion of communism or state-mandated Islam). While the tenacity and diligence of believers in such circumstances is heroic, the fact remains that the population of the believers in such circumstances remains relatively small. As Paul said, “[i]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?[/i]” (Romans 10:14).

The Church will continue under difficult circumstances in much the same way that it existed during the beginning. However, we are privileged to live in a nation where we can legally “shout it from the rooftops, highways and byways.” Unfortunately, there are individuals and groups in this nation that are currently seeking to limit any sort of public displays of faith while at the same time seeking to allow the public display of wickedness. The ACLU will fight against a cross from being displayed by the public, but they will fight for pornographic billboards that can be viewed by children. I know of a believer that was required to take down his Christmas yard sign that read “Wise Men Still Seek Jesus” while neighbors were allowed to have a vulgar statue. Unless believers take a stand as citizens (using the government and political system itself like Paul did), then we will continue to witness an encroachment upon our legal rights of faith. As believers, thus, we must “[i]prove all things, hold fast that which is good[/i]” (I Thessalonians 5:21). We must abstain from aligning ourselves with or making judgments squarely with the left or the right – and make certain that our allegiance is completely with the Lord (and his principles).

:-)

Br.Bartle wrote:

You ever hunt? You ever been to Dealey Plaza in Dallas? You really think one gunman killed President Kennedy?

I stood at the fence on that grassy knole. That is an evil place.

Another note, there has been new evidence brought out in Great Britian regarding the assasination of Bobby Kenedey. In the film clips taken in the Hotel that night, the researcher found 3 CIA men on site, in the same rooms during that event. The CIA has no jurisdiction in internal national affairs. They had no reason to be there that night...or did they?

In Christ
Jeff

---Wow bro Chris! ...

What you've done, and are doing is very impressive ... i like discussing such events, from a Godly worldview, with interested and informed people ...

But i'm a strange bird (some would say period :-P ) when it comes to history once it's happened, because for me once something occurs it becomes apparent to me that that was God's will ... This is how i feel about every passing second ... Once it's past God's will has been done, and when it comes to political events such as Watergate, Irangate, Iraqgate, or whatever "gate" there's always a whole bunch of partisan accusing, posturing and bearing false witness as to who conspired what against whom, which usually ends up in a whole lot of taxpayer money being spent "in order to get to the bottom of this" ... We all know what usually happen is if any wrong can be proven the lower guys on the totem pole take the fall to protect the head honco ... It's these types of shenanigans, and especially the bearing of false witness, that let me know the agendas of such men, even tho as you point out may be out of good intentions, to me are not Godly intentions to the benefit of the Church and His glory, but to that of the nation, a political party, or an
ideology of satan, tho seemingly as benign as Democracy ... Out of all the political agendas in the world i think Democracy works best and am glad God placed me an American citizen with a vote, but the best government period is God's Theocracy and of course this won't be realized until after "all the kingdoms of the world fall under His Kingdom" ...

i'm aware of what happened in Iran from "All The Shah's Men", as i'm also aware of a lot of the ancient history leading up to our present ... Again i like history not in the capacity to see what MAN has done to bring us to the brink of what presently could take us into a WWIII situation (not saying that it will but it surely is dangerous enough), but just what satan is doing via mankind, and how it comes to the benefit of God's plan and His ultimate glory ... So again i care nothing much for who puts what slant on history telling, or to constantly bicker about who did what, when and where, i'm only interested in the history as to the actual events taking place themselves (the time-line), and how such past events link to our present ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"The Crisis in the Middle East was also much larger than the hostages in Iran. Of much greater significance was the all encompassing “Islamic Revolution” (and subsequent embrace of radical Islamic extremism) that was changing the nature of the Middle East – and the world. There would no longer be a Cold War “bipolar balance” in the world (of Democracy v. Communism) imposed by the two great powers. This event, along with the failed Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, showed that a third choice was possible – where a third world nation could choose non-allegiance (or non-compliance)."

--- Uh-huh this is a pretty good summary of what's taken place in the natural, but it's my belief that all the events that unfold in our lives become a history of the battle between God (good) and satan (evil) played out thru us ... Again when such horrendous events as is occuring in our lives today occur, i think people of God begin to stop, look and listen! ... History tells us this also occured during both World Wars, tho i think we today are a lot more glib in attributing what's happening now to some serious rumblings in the super-natural ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"The reasoning for war has been stated by the Administration, and futher reasoning will certainly come to light in the years following the Administration's exit. Regardless of the reasoning, a good and noble outcome was most certainly hoped for. Whether it was an attempt to stop a regime from developing weapons of mass destruction or to create a free democracy in the Middle East -- the end was certainly admirable.

---This is why i asked you, if you felt led of Holy Spirit, to listen to and tell me what you think of the historical data and timeline in this documentary;

[b]THE POWER OF NIGHTMARES 1 - 3[/b]
(a BBC History Documentary of what led up to this current clash between Radical Islam and the so called Reagan
Conservative/Neocon/Christian U.S.)
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1037.htm

The third episode still has me pondering because the guy tries to prove that Alqeda is no where near the world wide network it's made out to be by our & GB's governments ... What the guy is saying is that our governments have lured us into, and is controlling us to do what they desire, by fear ... Could be but here's the deal, if the Neocons did use 9/11 as their jumping us into what they surely thought would be an easy war and take over of Iraq, they were dead wrong and now we're in a world of hurt that i believe satan's orchestrated just at God's perfect timing for His will to be done in America, and in His Church here ...

You speak of "the good intentions of such men", but have you ever heard the adage "The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions", or as scripture says, "There's a Way That Appears Right Unto a Man", or the even more heartbreaking "Get Away From Me You Workers of Unrighteousness ... I know You Not" ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"Prior to his testimony before the 9/11 Commission, former National Security Advisor Sandy Berger pled guilty to removing and destroying some documents from the National Archives regarding the Clinton Administration’s knowledge of 9/11 ... After he pled guilty, he was fined $50,000 and barred from any access to classified government documents for three years. Hopefully, no one from the Bush Administration will do likewise.

There are things about the current war in Iraq that we will not know for years to come. Before any real judgment can be made, an examination of the memoirs and records of senior members of the Administration will need to be made. Hopefully, we will have the full account available for examination."

---From what i've read it'll take a while to get Pres. 43's records ... It's said that Pres. Bush is the most secretive president we've ever had, and that he classifies just about everything and it's gonna take the full time limit allowed by Congressional law for any of it to come out ... So i'll be surprised to see anyone in the Bush 43 administartion destroying documents ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"It is important that we realize that the criticisms that we make about the war in Iraq today might actually change tomorrow."

---See i'm not criticising the war ... Again Pres. Bush being in office, 9/11 and this war in Iraq are all past events ... This says to me that all this is God's will ... Again what i like to know is the history of events in the natural that got us here, because i find knowing such to be much more effective in my witnessing to folk who talk about such ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"No person or "architect" wanted to go into war just to throw a nation into chaos. No person wanted to go into war just to have caused a long, drawn out conflict."

--- See i'm prone to agree with you about "no person", but i disagree about "no architect" ... As bro Rookie pointed out from Isaiah 14:12, satan loves to weaken the nations ... That's what the master conspirator does, he creates and then plays the fears and vanities of men against men ... Again, when i look at what's going on in Iraq i don't see men killing one another, i see the devil killing men on all sides ... The only saving grace i see in all of this carnage is that God sits above all, and even tho we may not understand why, and how, all things work together for the good of we the called according to His purpose, and to His ultimate glory! ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"We must abstain from aligning ourselves with or making judgments squarely with the left or the right – and make certain that our allegiance is completely with the Lord (and his principles)."

--- Amen!!! ... that's exactly my puny human aspiration!

God bless you bro Chris, and thanks again for this discussion ... i post long, and have no problem reading when you post long to ... When one enjoys something the only problem seems to be that it comes to an end ... :-D ---

Here is another perspective of what might be occuring...

RUSSIA READY TO NEUTRALIZE U.S. ECONOMY
by J. R. Nyquist

In his e-book publication titled Russian Rubicon, W. Joseph Stroupe likens modern Russia to Julius Caesar. And like Caesar, Russia must cross the Rubicon if only to save itself from the “unreasonable” Anglo-American hegemony. But more than seeking its own salvation, Russia follows the path of a great power that knows how to adapt and improvise. The Americans, on their side, are not so fortunate. According to Stroupe, “the U.S. has failed utterly to conduct itself in a fashion that recommends its particular brand of leadership to the world at large.” He argues that America has “poisoned the international order with significant and justifiable fear, apprehension and resentment over the instability and inequitableness resulting from its global dominance.”

Stroupe suggests that Russia has prepared a “noble” response to America’s insensitive blundering, just as Caesar enacted a “noble” response to the corrupt Roman Senate of the first century B.C. Far from ruined as a geopolitical power, Russia is in the process of rising from its own ashes. “It has become quite fashionable to say that the geopolitical rivalry between the U.S. on one side and Russia on the other ended in 1991 with the collapse of the Soviet Union,” Stroupe explains. “The naïve proponents of such a shallow and idealistic view of American-Russian relations attempt to prop up their ‘house of cards’ analysis by pointing out that the bitter ideological rivalry … dissolved … when communism was pronounced dead.” But the so-called “death of communism” wasn’t decisive at all. The rivalry of the two powers was geopolitical rather than ideological. There has always been basic incompatibility between Russia and America. “The Cold war was merely Round I,” says Stroupe. Russia has become a thinking power while an “unreasoning” and “iron-like” neo-conservative element has taken charge of Anglo-American affairs. A new Cold War has begun.

The neo-conservatives, he argues, see the international system with America at the center, “destined to rule a new, born-again … unipolar age.” But this is sheer fantasy, warns Stroupe. Anglo-America “has become seduced by its own power. As such, it now believes fully in the very image of invincibility which it previously knew and understood was mostly an image.” Setting aside the everyday realities of the shopping mall regime, Stroupe insists that America is in “the throes of fervent nationalism and the unreasoning brand of patriotism, married to religious fundamentalism and … apocalyptic adventurism….”

We ought to pause and reflect, at this juncture, and acknowledge an exaggeration in Mr. Stroupe’s account; especially his idea that fervent nationalism flourishes in the United States (aside from the waving of Mexican flags in support of ten to twenty million “undocumented workers”). We may also question the authenticity of an American patriotism that imports countless items marked with the apocalyptic assignation “MADE IN CHINA.” Be that as it may, Stroupe deserves high praise for deconstructing America’s myth of invincibility. This myth hides the troubling, even terrifying suspicion that America is inherently weak and divided; that liberals and conservatives counteract each other in a way that negates the whole. Russian policy, on its side, is unencumbered by domestic political opposition. The only uprising one might expect in Russia is the sight of 100,000 Chechen corpses floating up from shallow graves.

We should also doubt Stroupe’s claim that America’s leaders are attempting to employ an age-old formula by using fundamentalist religion to “harden the government’s grip over the people” and to “indoctrinate and propagandize the minds of pliable persons….” Anyone who lives in America may consult his neighbors to see if any have been lured to God through government-inspired evangelism. If the president prays, if he occasionally invokes God, he merely follows in the footsteps of other American presidents. There is no indoctrination here. One ought to be reminded that School prayer was normal fifty years ago. But today prayer is forbidden in the public schools and the White House isn’t going to bring it back. Let us take care to identify what is really happening out there. The fundamentalists in the United States haven’t stopped abortion, pornography or drugs. They are helpless before the steady advance of a profane, secular culture. In fact, they regularly succumb to sex and drugs themselves. Nonetheless, Stroupe warns of a Bible-thumping wolf in Washington. He calls up the image of Cotton Mather rolling up the Constitution in place of our amiable Methodist president with an empty bag of political tricks.

Setting religion aside, Stroupe is best when he analyzes Russia as it prepares to thump American imperialism where it hurts (i.e., at the gas pump). And here is the crux of Russia’s method according to Stroupe: “In virtually every relationship that Russia cultivates, energy … and/or strategic minerals play the central role in one way or another.” Because of this, “The U.S. has seen inroads into its influence and power in strategically important regions like the Middle East, Central Asia and Southeast Asia….”

As we all know, the United States advocates “regime change” and the “democratization” of hostile territory. This is Washington’s apparent strategy for homogenizing the former Soviet Union. There is something fundamentally misbegotten in this strategy. In the case of Iraq the error is obvious. In the case of Georgia and Ukraine, we find ourselves bewildered by strange turns and alien attitudes. Stroupe says that regime change is not a workable strategy because “there now exists a great disillusionment with American style liberal democracy [in the former Soviet Union].” And so America follows a strategy that cannot work. Under this situation the U.S. is no longer the dominant power. Instead, Russia and China are positioned to dominate if they remain in league with key energy-exporting countries. Russia exports more energy (in terms of gas and oil) than any other country on earth. Russia has also aligned itself with Iran and Venezuela, among others. Furthermore, Stroupe argues, “The very real weakness and limitations of the U.S. military have been shown up by the current Iraq situation.” The West now finds itself “economically encircled,” and Russia holds the highest cards – the oil and gas cards. As Stroupe points out, “the rising global influence of both Russia and China give the pair almost irresistible influence on the world stage in nearly every sphere.”

It seems that Russia has paved the way for American economic collapse. “The move off the dollar is ominous for the U.S.,” says Stroupe, who claims that Russia and China are secretly getting out of the dollar. “Russia’s economy is already virtually independent of that of the U.S. and therefore already enjoys a high degree of immunity to a U.S. economic collapse.”

Over 20 years ago a KGB defector named Anatoliy Golitsyn warned that the Soviet Union was planning to fake its own demise in order to reposition itself to renew the Cold War on more advantageous terms. There is a passage in Golitsyn’s book, New Lies for Old, which resonates with Stroupe’s thesis. According to Golitsyn, “An alignment of [a revived] Soviet Union and Eastern Europe with a socialist Western Europe would exert a powerful influence over Third World socialist parties and trade unions. Some of the remaining conservative Third World countries would be strongly drawn toward a socialist orientation. Resistance to [Russia and China] … would be replaced by a combined … drive for Third World influence, backed by economic aid. It would have far-reaching consequences, especially if the U.S. aid should be curtailed in response to a severe economic depression. Soviet oil and grain could be used to good effect.”

We should keep in mind the possibility that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a strategic maneuver, and that the reemergence of Russian power described by Stroupe is the result of this maneuver’s success.

© 2006 Jeffrey R. Nyquist

What does Scripture say of a beast that comes back to life?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Rahman,

I've been going through your recommendations on this topic. In regard to the Nightmare documentary, in particular the third part, I found this to dovetail into a lecture I recently listened to that took place in April at UC Berkeley. The topic is related to analyzing "what exactly is a war on terrorism mean/"

http://webcast.berkeley.edu/courses/archive.php?seriesid=1906978286

Once you arrive at this page have your pick between video or mp3...

The lecture is the one at the top of the page given by Ian Lustick. US Policy and the War on Terrorism.

In Christ
Jeff

Excellent article bro Jeff,

Russia is emerging agian as a world power. With just the turn of the spigot much of Europe could freeze without natural gas to warm their houses - Ukraine comes to mind.

And much of the world knows that America cannot be matched on the battle field. Instead exploit its achilles heel - its economy (the dollar, and an eroded industrial base) and its reliance on foreign oil imports.

There's a power struggle amongst the nations. Right now America goes further into debt as it pours 250 million a day into Iraq against an insurgency with only a minute fraction of its own colossal military budget. Its like watching a desperate man slowly drag down a powerful bull buy its horns, waiting for its energy and will to be spent.

Back to Iraq - One possible development, fed by the vacuum left by Saddam, is the possible formation of whats been called a Shiite Crescent, a possible galvinizing force amongst Muslims in that region. But i don't know too much on this subject. If your interested, heres a short article -- [url=http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:7N-ZWE1rTuAJ:www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20060803/ai_n16658765+shiite+crescent+find+an+article&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=safari]U.S. attack on Iraq strengthened Iran[/url]

The rumbling of the nations...these are surely interesting and foreboding times.

God Bless,
Rob

Brother Rob,

After reading your article, I started researching the Shiite Cresent. The very first article produced a gem, not necessarily about the "Shiite Cresent" but about "participatory democracy."

This is part of an article produced by The Council on Foreign Relations.

"Shortly after the attacks of September 11, 2001, a Jordanian jihadi, fresh from fighting U.S. forces in Afghanistan, entered the Kurdish no-fly zone in northern Iraq. At the time of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's arrival, Shiite-Sunni relations in the region—explained in this new Backgrounder—were relatively undisturbed. Intermarriage was not uncommon among urban Arabs. Sectarian violence was isolated. If anything, pan-Arabism appeared on the rise, not Shiism.

Five years later, Iraq has become the center of a Sunni-Shiite divide, thanks largely to the thousands slaughtered—many of them Shiites—by Zarqawi's band of extremists. But Zarqawi was not solely responsible for the rift in Shiite-Sunni relations. Another crucial factor, however counterintuitive, is democracy. "Participatory politics drive people to look for new identities," CFR Adjunct Fellow Noah Feldman said at a June 5 symposium on Shiism. "There are identity entrepreneurs out there who present themselves and say: Here's an identity, latch on to this one." Nowhere is this ethno-religious identity split more pervasive than in Iraq, says Phebe Marr of the United States Institute of Peace. "Political leaders played on ethnic and sectarian identities to get elected," she told CFR.org's Bernard Gwertzman."

(end of thought)

This idea below is the gem...

"Participatory politics drive people to look for new identities," CFR Adjunct Fellow Noah Feldman said at a June 5 symposium on Shiism. "There are identity entrepreneurs out there who present themselves and say: Here's an identity, latch on to this one."

This thought on what democracy creates in the individual is profound for me. In this particular thread, we might begin to see why the politicians use fear as a device to control the masses. In our nation we might begin to see why division seems to grow stronger and stronger between it's people. In our nation we might begin to see how the corporation provides material things to help us define who we are in this democracy.

What is the result for those who say we follow Christ and yet unknowingly hold much of our hope in what "democracy" can provide?
In Christ
Jeff

What is the result for those who say we follow Christ and yet unknowingly hold much of our hope in what "democracy" can provide?

A very important question...

It tends to produce a strong feeling of entitlement, especially in us who never knew otherwise.

When that illusion cracks...

God help us
Rob

Bro Jeff,

This is a pretty precise article you've posted, and the Berkley Seminar eye opening as well ...

Seems to me the master deciever has played the U.S. well, but then what could be expected when many of the American people, it's leaders, and the nation wear Christ as the whited selpulcher He spoke of, and then attempt to make a political and economical end run to their goal without obeying His game rules ... i think that's called cheating, and there are penalties for cheating! ...

These are some of the things that stood out to me ---

Quote;
"The neo-conservatives, he argues, see the international system with America at the center, “destined to rule a new, born-again … unipolar age.” But this is sheer fantasy, warns Stroupe. Anglo-America “has become seduced by its own power. As such, it now believes fully in the very image of invincibility which it previously knew and understood was mostly an image.” Setting aside the everyday realities of the shopping mall regime, Stroupe insists that America is in “the throes of fervent nationalism and the unreasoning brand of patriotism, married to religious fundamentalism and … apocalyptic adventurism….”

Quote;
"Stroupe deserves high praise for deconstructing America’s myth of "invincibility. This myth hides the troubling, even terrifying suspicion that America is inherently weak and divided; that liberals and conservatives counteract each other in a way that negates the whole. Russian policy, on its side, is unencumbered by domestic political opposition. The only uprising one might expect in Russia is the sight of 100,000 Chechen corpses floating up from shallow graves."

Quote;
“there now exists a great disillusionment with American style liberal democracy [in the former Soviet Union]. And so America follows a strategy that cannot work. Under this situation the U.S. is no longer the dominant power. Instead, Russia and China are positioned to dominate if they remain in league with key energy-exporting countries. Russia exports more energy (in terms of gas and oil) than any other country on earth. Russia has also aligned itself with Iran and Venezuela, among others. Furthermore, Stroupe argues, The very real weakness and limitations of the U.S. military have been shown up by the current Iraq situation. The West now finds itself economically encircled, and Russia holds the highest cards – the oil and gas cards. As Stroupe points out, the rising global influence of both Russia and China give the pair almost irresistible influence on the world stage in nearly every sphere.”

Quote;
"It seems that Russia has paved the way for American economic collapse. The move off the dollar is ominous for the U.S., says Stroupe, who claims that Russia and China are secretly getting out of the dollar. Russia’s economy is already virtually independent of that of the U.S. and therefore already enjoys a high degree of immunity to a U.S. economic collapse."

--- It seems to me of the former that Matt.15:8 & 2Tim.3 have caught up with us ...

And this following is also something that i heard during the so called falled of the Soviet Union, when America was sending over business people toward Russian open market capitalism, and ambassadors toward detante, and massive amounts of money to bail them out and buy up tactical nukes ---

Quote;
"Over 20 years ago a KGB defector named Anatoliy Golitsyn warned that the Soviet Union was planning to fake its own demise in order to reposition itself to renew the Cold War on more advantageous terms. There is a passage in Golitsyn’s book, New Lies for Old, which resonates with Stroupe’s thesis. According to Golitsyn, “An alignment of [a revived] Soviet Union and Eastern Europe with a socialist Western Europe would exert a powerful influence over Third World socialist parties and trade unions. Some of the remaining conservative Third World countries would be strongly drawn toward a socialist orientation. Resistance to [Russia and China] … would be replaced by a combined … drive for Third World influence, backed by economic aid. It would have far-reaching consequences, especially if the U.S. aid should be curtailed in response to a severe economic depression. Soviet oil and grain could be used to good effect.”

We should keep in mind the possibility that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a strategic maneuver, and that the reemergence of Russian power described by Stroupe is the result of this maneuver’s success."

--- i remember attempting to discuss this back then and was often rebuffed that the Soviets weren't smart enough to even concieve of such a thing ... i never trusted Gorbachev, and never thought that the Russians could ever be trusted, but most Americans were convinced that somehow we had won ... Our Lord even back then had made me aware of the massively increasing debt load of this nation, but no one other than myself in my circle seemed to be alarmed about it ... Now we've come to a place that if i were not fully trusting in our Lord, and in constant repentance before Him, i'd be scared to death ... And even with this, as with this past weekend in prayer, my gut wrenches for all who will be taken by surprise ...

i sometimes get butterflys in my gut for what is about to befall us politically and economically, but my spirit soars in joy and anticipation of what will emerge spiritually in the Body of Christ, particularly here in the U.S. ... i believe out of the turmoil will arise REPENTANCE, REVIVAL and REAPING of a harvest that stores up for us all treasures in heaven ... i believe there will be a tranformation from the deficits of Laodicea to the assets of Philadelphia and Smyrna ---

Bro's Jeff & Rob you wrote; ...
"What is the result for those who say we follow Christ and yet unknowingly hold much of our hope in what "democracy" can provide?"

&

"A very important question...It tends to produce a strong feeling of entitlement, especially in us who never knew otherwise ... When that illusion cracks...God help us"

---Again, i don't think it will be the political and governmental failures that will crack most Americans, because most Americans don't really believe in our government, and politicians anyway ... Most Americans treat the government like they treat God, they either only believe in it when they're in trouble, or they don't believe in it at all ... What's that old slogan? ... "It's the economy
stupid"! ... This is the only thing really important to most Americans and the Laodicean type church ... Eliminate the "materialism" and the cry i believe from those who do not fall away first will be, "God Help Us"!!!

[i][color=FF0000]You know i think i'm about done with all this, for now i've got a pretty good understanding on all levels of why and where we are ...[/color][/i]

All praises to Him whom tho we oft forsake Him, He never forsakes us ... THANK YOU JESUS!

[i][b][color=FF0000]NOTHING LEFT TO DO NOW BUT PRAY LIKE WE'VE NEVER PRAYED BEFORE!!! ---[/color][/b][/i]

--Again, i don't think it will be the political and governmental failures that will crack most Americans, because most Americans don't really believe in our government, and politicians anyway ... Most Americans treat the government like they treat God, they either only believe in it when they're in trouble, or they don't believe in it at all ... What's that old slogan? ... "It's the economy stupid"! ... This is the only thing really important to most Americans and the Laodicean type church ... Eliminate the "materialism" and the cry i believe from those who do not fall away first will be, "God Help Us"!!!

Actually bro Rahman, i think you've just described what i meant by entitlement. When i speak of democracy, i mean all those freedoms that accompany it and the benefits derived from it as spelled out in our constitution - not hope in our government per se.

Rob

NOTHING LEFT TO DO NOW BUT PRAY LIKE WE'VE NEVER PRAYED BEFORE!!! ---

Amen.

Can we hear the this? How many church leaders, precious brothers in the Lord trapped by their own positions, have the courage...and even authority to shut down their technocratic spiritless organizations and call the people to the altar for ceaseless prayer?

Lately I've been amazed how busy our church is doing busy stuff.

In the old days when revival hit, we read how people would shut down their businesses for prayer and worship. Today when revival hits we will have to shut down our chuches so we can pray and worship at last.

I am looking forward to it..praying for it in fact.

MC

NOTHING LEFT TO DO NOW BUT PRAY LIKE WE'VE NEVER PRAYED BEFORE!!! ---

Bro Rahman, I don’t read this instruction in the scripture anywhere – as a way of dealing with the reality of imminent judgment on the land, collapse of an empire, persecution of the saints, etc. I say: scripture gives us a lot to do – especially in the area of building our own faith, getting rooted in the Word, building relationships, learning to hear God’s voice and submit to him.

Let’s admit, compared to most people in the world, we have been living pampered self-reliant lives, and we are not fit for upheaval on a large scale.

Just learning to become normal Christians is a good start, that is - rising above the subnormal standard of the day. However, overcoming the inertia takes a lot of effort. Let’s admit, who studies hard for an exam he never expects to write? Who builds physical endurance for a race he never expects to run?

See where I’m going with this? While we indeed must learn to wait on God and pray, it is likely that if we LISTEN to him, we will hear him calling us to firm up a few of our “flabby muscles”.

This is no time to merely bunker down and sit tight in our psychological bomb shelters, and wait for that "big day" to come:roll: .

...Not that you are implying that, of course.

...just being your friendly thorn,

Diane

While we indeed must learn to wait on God and pray, it is likely that if we LISTEN to him, we will hear him calling us to firm up a few of our “flabby muscles”.

I think we just passed each other on the freeway exchange of ideas... :-) ...but though our outward muscles grow more flabby, yet the inward muscles are renewed day by day. ;-)

Now this forum has been to me a treasure of helpful wisdom and exhortation...but perhaps the best piece of advice I ever recieved here was the simplest..."Before the Church can "do" she must "be."

When I first heard it, I scoffed...but it is worming it's way into every facet of my faith. You see, when it comes to doing church, we aren't really lacking for good ideas, or even enthusiasm, ...it's the Holy Spirit that is too often missing.

And praying to "be" before we "do" is biblical...

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

This is no time to merely bunker down and sit tight in our psychological bomb shelters, and wait for that "big day" to come.

Knowing what I do about you Diane, and the resulting respect I have for you, for your intercessory heart, and for so often bringing mature insight to me... I offer this perspective with myself included as a recipient... If we regard prayer as inert psychological bunkering or escape from real spiritual activity then perhaps we don't fully apppreciate or understand prayer. (Considering the desperate condition of our churches...I'm quite sure we don't.)

Sure we must go on living , working, and sharing...but we have not yet begun to pray, in the full spectrum of true worship, desperate petiton, humble listening, and unmistakble filling, as God would have us. (Generally speaking.)

The closer we draw to God in such prayer the more I think we'll realize that even the most 'spiritual' of us, have been meditating on worldy precepts far too much...this is why I think many churches are more distractions then enablers...prayer is too often pushed aside for more 'urgent' activities.

Someone recently discussed with me the well-known story about communist police coming into a church and threatening to shoot all the real Christians who didn't leave at once. As the story goes, after many people left the building, the police admitted that they themselves were in fact Christians too, but had to make sure that they were revealing themselves to only real believers.

I could resist replying..."In America you wouldn't need a gun in church to find out who the real Christians are. Simply threaten the congregation with a prayer meeting."

Blessings,

MC

(All posted here is not meant to be rude, but in serious reply to the serious times in which we live)

--- Sis D ...

There's nothing friendly about thorns or buffeting ... According to Paul (2 Cor. 12:7) he recieved his "lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations" ... Now if in fact our Lord has revealed things to me that requires His assignment of thorns and buffeting to me to keep me from thinking to much of myself then tho i might find it painful i thank Him for whomever He assigns ---

Sis D you wrote;
"Bro Rahman, I don’t read this instruction in the scripture anywhere – as a way of dealing with the reality of imminent judgment on the land, collapse of an empire, persecution of the saints, etc. I say: scripture gives us a lot to do – especially in the area of building our own faith, getting rooted in the Word, building relationships, learning to hear God’s voice and submit to him. "

---As with so much that i post i guess i should have qualified the statement (tho i thought maybe i'd not have to do so with you again since we've already had our bout with "Christians, and anything but the point") ...

When i wrote "nothing else to do but pray" i primarily meant in the capacity of (my and other participants on this thread) now having a clearer understanding of how America (church and state) has gotten to the point we are, and that nothing short of divine correction is gonna make us stop and take notice, therefore any who believe that correction is immenient should be praying like never before for everyone else who've got their heads in the sand ... So let me qualify how i mean NOTHING ELSE LEFT TO DO BUT PRAY ...

First off for me, when i don't see anything that i can physically do in regards this collision course with CORRECTION, i do the only thing i can and that's BOMBARD HEAVEN IN PRAYER ...

Second, in the context of what i meant by PRAY re: His correction being nigh, i mean like in Christ's admonition to the disciples in Luke 21 when they asked about His coming again, and particularly [36] "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (This is exagerrated prayer for me and my family) ...

Also in the capacity of Eph.6:18 - "Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints" (this is in exagerrated prayer for the Body) ...

Phil.4: 6 - Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. (this in exagerrated prayer for all the multitude of questions i have for our Lord in regards what i believe He's showing me regarding His correction) ...

1Thes.5: 1 - But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
[6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
[8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
[10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
[11] Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
[12] And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
[13] And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
[14] Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
[15] See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
[16] Rejoice evermore.
[17] Pray without ceasing. (again in exagerrated prayer for the Body, and for those that may be saved in the interim of His correction upon His Body) ...

1Pet.4: 7 - "But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." (all these scriptures on prayer is what we should be doing all the time, but we don't, and God knows i wouldn't now be in exagerrated prayer if i didn't believe He's impressing on me my need to"

... i believe our Lord would love for His Church to have been "listening" to His pleas to us of proactive repentance, but we haven't, which i think is sufficient reply to your quote;

"While we indeed must learn to wait on God and pray, it is likely that if we LISTEN to him, we will hear him calling us to firm up a few of our “flabby muscles"

Sis D my question to you ... "Do you see the state of the Body here in America doing any of the things you've mentioned?" ---

Sis D you wrote;
"Let’s admit, compared to most people in the world, we have been living pampered self-reliant lives, and we are not fit for upheaval on a large scale. Just learning to become normal Christians is a good start, that is - rising above the subnormal standard of the day. However, overcoming the inertia takes a lot of effort. Let’s admit, who studies hard for an exam he never expects to write? Who builds physical endurance for a race he never expects to run? See where I’m going with this?"

--- i don't know what you mean when you say "we are not fit for upheaval on a large scale" ... By we do you mean "we Americans as a political nation"? ... If so i agree ... But if you mean we Americans who make up the Body here, which is reported to be the majority of us, then how can you ask such a question when first off He concidered us fit enought to come here and die for us, fit enough to warn us that He disciplines as many as He loves, and fit enought to tell us that His correction always starts with us ... See in a lot of ways i think you're like a lot of saints here in the U.S. who hope that we're not worth His trouble to correct us ... i believe that's why so many saints hassle, harraungue and buffet those who come with the warning message of immenient correction, especially if one says financial devestation ... And what do you mean by a "normal Christian" when scripture says that God's definition of normal is "peculiar" ... How many "peculiar" saints do you know? ... And your questions you asked are pretty scary to me if you're applying them in a spiritual sense...

Sis D not meaning to be rude here, but no i don't see where your're going with this ... In fact since you asked me i have trouble seeing a lot of places you go ... i'm still trying to make sense of "Love God, Then Do What You Want" ---

Sis D you finished;
"This is no time to merely bunker down and sit tight in our psychological bomb shelters, and wait for that "big day" to come .
...Not that you are implying that, of course."

--- Amen ... i think your ending is an indication that you know me better than what you formerly said ... The lesson i've learned about the so called remnant in Israel when the nation itself had gone of their rocker is that when God corrected all were affected ... But i bet thruout all the time that the prophets whom they believed, we're prophesying His coming correction, those faithful saw the inevitible collision coming due to the others unwillingness to repent and knew for themselves there was ...

NOTHING LEFT TO DO NOW BUT PRAY LIKE WE'VE NEVER PRAYED BEFORE!!! ---

Fellow SI'ers ...

What i'm posting here hasn't been easy to believe, and even harder to actually say ...

i've had a very interesting time of it (i believe) with God since my initial salvation in 1979, and now i'm at a point in my walk where i now entertain an excitement that ministers to me that i've overcome not all, but enough to where our Lord is about to move me even closer to His ultimate purpose for my life ...

i believe that for over some 20 years now He's been impressing on me that His correcting hand is soon upon us here in the U.S. ... This is a warning message that i've attempted to share with many over the years, and now i believe we're right up on it ... In fact i believe that if we get thru the coming year (2007) without any amazing events occuring such as we've never seen before, events that will solidify the faith of some saints and cause the falling away of others, events that will affect our economy adversly in the extreme, miraculous events that will spark on our faces REPENTANCE, the beginning of REVIVAL and an onset to unprecedented HARVEST, then you'll be able to chalk all this up to the rantings and ravings of yet another over zealous, well meaning but self deluded, old coot ...

i believe this is a time for us ALL to pray like we've never prayed before, and a time to clear all residual sin out of our lives ... If we're still carrying things from Egypt let us leave them behind for they don't belong with us across the Jordan ... If we're dwelling in Shechem, and we know we're supposed to come back to Bethel the second time lets bury ALL our little idols left before we go ... Let us ALL here on SI be proactive before our God, that when the time of reaction come we be in places of leadership with Him that He may use us to His glory, and to the work of explanation and consolation to those caught unawares ...

i know this sounds strange, but know that all that i do and have said here on SI i say and do out of faith ... If time proves me wrong, and misguided, then i apologize up front, will come back and do so again later, and then go sit myself down on a dock of the bay somewhere and become a fisherman of fish ... But if our Lord vindicates what to many is my weirdness, and to others my nonsense, this is but the beginning of His making me a fisherman of men, and the start of something i believe i heard Him say to me so many years ago ...

First: I will make you a spokesman first to my Church, and then to the nations ...
Second: When your ministry takes off it will take a multitude with it ...

In this last year, when i really just wanted to stop, i believe He did two things for me ...

First: He put me into compact with bro Ironman (Farai)
Prophetic Credentials II
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=11514&forum=35&start=50&viewmode=flat&order=0Prophetic Credentials 3
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=12628&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go ...
Second: He keeps saying to me, "Persevere for the "multitude" ...

If our Lord proves me wrong then i'll soon be but a sad memory here on SI ...
If our Lord proves me true ... "Eye hath not seen ....

But in the meanwhile saints, please know that it's FAITH that is my fuel, and LOVE toward whomever that "multitude" is that's my forward motivation ...

Blessing in Christ Jesus and please pray for me ...

Bro R

i don't see where you’re going with this

I admit, Rahman, I am perplexed with myself too. As an evangelical defector (of seven years), I still seem to be hyper-sensitive about the chronic misuse of spiritual jargon. Words like: “just pray, pray pray”, though good advice, has so often been used as a cope-out – a way of avoiding the tough slugging of learning, of growing, of questioning, of reading, and thinking. Instead of taking an honest look at what’s going on, churches simply hold prayer meetings. They know just what words to say – and repeat the same old chants. They pray for Thesnelda’s ingrown toenail and everybody’s troubles. Maybe they even ask God to help, to reveal truth, to bless this and that, and send revival. Yet they collectively remain in denial. Passivity lulls everyone to sleep. Ugh! And if you happen to reveal some element of divine truth (Is that not an answer to their prayers?) you are branded a rebel. I wonder, why bother praying if you won’t accept the answers?

There is a part of me that would love to shout out: Forget the prayer meetings… forget trying to be anything. Just be pagan for a while until your layers and layers of religious shrouds come unravelled. Then you can begin to BE – be REAL, that is. That’s a good start!

"Before the Church can "do" she must "be."

First off for me, when i don't see anything that i can physically do in regards this collision course with CORRECTION, i do the only thing i can and that's BOMBARD HEAVEN IN PRAYER ...

Of course, Rahman, I knew you were thinking this. In other words, when we realize that our governments, our armies, and our institutions are NOT going to get their act together, and we can’t fix them, then we have come to the place where God wants us: defeat! We know we can’t win. Until we come to that point, we will always be holding a flicker of hope in mankind, including ourselves - and we will avoid the cross.

Now here is a radical thought: I wonder if it wouldn’t be better to refrain from using the words “prayer” and “pray”, since they have become sanitized by religious tradition and habits. Instead use expressions that say what prayer (without ceasing) really means:

Ex:
"listening" to His pleas to us…”
"Watch ye therefore…”
“watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication”
“watch unto prayer.”
Etc, etc..

Hey, Shouldn’t we be praying with our eyes OPEN!
What are we doing with our eyes closed!!

"Do you see the state of the Body here in America doing any of the things you've mentioned?" –

…doing church

And what do you mean by a "normal Christian" when scripture says that God's definition of normal is "peculiar"

Great to dialogue with you, brothers. Nice diversion from the monologues.
Diane

THE UNKNOWN PATH: THE LIFE IN THE SPIRIT

The Walk in the Spirit is a walk in the Prepared Life. And when we know this we are relieved of any responsibility as to the Way we are to take, or the work that we are to accomplish. We must recognize this, and not seek in any way to get involved with our own strategies, our own thoughts. The prophet tells us that these are as far below God's thoughts, as the earth is below the heavens. Paul tells us that the mind of the flesh is "enmity against God" and that it is "not subject to the law of God." He tells us that the natural man "receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God," that they are foolishness unto him.

If we pursue the Life in the Spirit we are pursuing an unknown pathway. Yes, some have travelled it before, but it remains an unknown pathway. I mean, though we read about it and know about it, we must discover it for ourselves. This is what we are to learn in our wilderness walk. It is a way that God prepares in the entanglements of life. We cannot mark out for ourselves a smooth and a plain pathway. But as we learn God's way in this realm, we are going to find that God is by His Spirit seeking to lead us out of the old way of life, and into a new prepared way of the Spirit. It is not in man to know it, or to search it out...

"There is a path which no fowl knoweth, and which the vulture's eye hath not seen: the lion's whelps have not trodden it, nor the fierce lion passed by it..."

"Man knoweth not the price thereof; neither is it found in the land of the living. The depth saith, It is not in me: and the sea saith, It is not with me. It cannot be gotten for gold, neither shall silver be weighed for the price thereof..."

"Whence then cometh wisdom? and where is the place of understanding? Seeing it is hid from the eyes of all living, and kept close from the fowls of the air..."

"Then did He see it, and declare it; HE PREPARED IT, yea, and SEARCHED IT OUT..."

"And unto man He said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." (See Job 28:7-28).

It is a Way that God has PREPARED for them that fear Him... fear Him enough that they will fear to go their own Way or do their own thing.

We come to God as helpless, hopeless sinners and find mercy, and He sovereignly brings us into a realm of New Creation. And then it seems the people of God are encouraged to go their way, and do the best they can with God's help. But Paul exhorts us to walk by the rule of New Creation life. (See Gal. 6:15-16). It is the Rule of the Cloud... the Law of the Spirit... a Law of Life... and therefore it is not in the heart of man to comprehend or understand it.

This was Nicodemus' problem. He was a man of great wisdom and understanding as far as this world goes, and as far as the "Church" of his day was concerned. He was a teacher in Israel; but Jesus would show him a way into a totally new kind of life:

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (Jn. 3:8).

Evangelical Christianity has no problem with that. We know it means the Spirit has moved upon our hearts very sovereignly we don't know how... and brought us to new birth in a manner far beyond our ability to comprehend. BUT WE MUST WALK BY THE SAME RULE! WE MUST LIVE BY THE SAME LAW OF THE SPIRIT!

We do not know where the Spirit comes from and whither He would lead us. O yes, we know He comes from the heart of God but here in our daily lives, here in the Land that has to be subdued for God, we fail to recognize this principle. We do not know the course that the Wind of His Spirit will take. We do not know what He has planned and devised. We do not know whither He would lead us. And this causes us to feel very insecure. We want a charted course. But it is a path which no fowl knoweth, and which the vulture's eye hath not seen. And so we would yield so readily to the temptation to chart our own course... or more likely still, to get involved with some kind of religious structure that will do it for us. They are more experienced, so we would find safety under their canopy, under their covering, under their shelter. And so we read their history, how their movement started, and try and convince ourselves that the goals which they hope to reach are valid and scriptural. We think in this way we might discover "from whence the Wind cometh... and whither it goeth." And this may give us a certain sense of security and safety.

But the man of the Spirit Way cannot become fettered with rules and regulations. He must walk in the Spirit. He must find himself in the Wind of the Spirit... in the flow of the River of God. At first, like Ezekiel of old, he will walk hesitatingly into the waters. It is a vast River, and he must tread carefully. A step or two... Then he finds himself in water up to his ankles. The stream is getting more forceful as he moves on, and fear grips his heart. Now the water is up to his knees... now up to his loins. But still he hears the words: "Keep walking... Keep coming to Me... Do not be afraid..." Suddenly he finds he can no longer touch bottom; they are waters "to swim in" and he is swept along in the current.

He has lost control! He is carried along in the current of the River of the Spirit of God! He does not know whence it cometh, and whither it goeth!

But as he is carried along in the flow of the Spirit he begins to lose his fear. He discovers that it is a River of Peace, and that all fears have been swept away. For this River flows out from the heart of God, and will return to the heart of God... and he will return with it. He has found all his springs are in Zion. He has not yet seen the City, except by faith, like Abraham of old, who saw it afar off: a City which has foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God. But though he sees it not, he knows the River is flowing out from the City, and unto the City.

Ezekiel lost his footings when he found "waters to swim in." And so it must be with the people who come into the realm of the Spirit. No longer can we calculate, and plan, and devise, and arrange, and order, and organize, and control...

It is the Way of the Spirit! It is the Way of New Birth! It is the Way of the Wind! We hear the "sound" and that is enough. We know the Voice, and the Voice is assuring. We have not gone this Way before, but He has... and He wants us to walk in the Way that He has prepared.

Do I sense a certain fear in hearts when I say the man of the Spirit has "lost control"? I did not say he is out of control, or that he is not under control. Rather, the Spirit of God is now in control. Is that to be considered dangerous? Or would you feel a little more secure if your carnal mind were to remain in control? Or is some religious organization was to remain in control? Or if some outstanding apostle or prophet was to have the control?

There are so many in the religious world who feel comfortable and secure in the systems of men, and they fear the unknown Way. But the people who have committed their whole way of life to Him, and into the care of the Spirit of our Lord Jesus, shall know the joy and the peace and the rest of the River of God when the heavens and the earth are shaken, and when the mountains are dissolved in the depths of the sea:

"Therefore will not we fear,
Though the earth be removed,
And though the mountains be carried
Into the midst of the sea...
There is a River,
The streams whereof shall make glad
The City of God,
The holy place of the tabernacles
Of the Most High"
(Ps. 46:2-4).

We do not understand all the implications of this. But we do know that when the heavens and the earth are shaken, and the mountains are dissolved in the sea... whether by the devices of men or by the fire of God... there is going to be a people flowing in the River of God, making glad His City, "the Holy Place of the Tabernacles of the Most High."

There is a spirit that controls the course of this world. It is the spirit of Satan, "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in [activates, energizes] the children of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2). He has succeeded in totally captivating the spirits and souls and bodies of men and women, making them to be the "bondslaves of sin" (Rom. 6:17). They think they are FREE but they are not. They are prisoners to the spirit of the world and of Satan. They are totally under his control. Only the Light of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ can set them free.

Let us fear that kind of control; and having been delivered from it, let us "stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath set us free."

But never let us fear to be caught in the flow of His cleansing, purifying, life-giving River; for it is the River of God, the River of Truth, the River of Freedom, the River of Joy, the River of Wisdom, the River of Knowledge, the River of Life, the River of Love that flows ceaselessly from the heart of God and through the Land of our Inheritance!

From: Beauty for Ashes Series: A way trough the Wilderness Chapter 8
By, George Warnock

(end of thought)

The unknown path is what causes us to grow together in the unity that is found in Christ. The process is never pretty, because it represents death. The Life that comes out of death is the hope for which we strive. As we share our spiritual gifts our hearts grow in a way that we recognize Christ's work amonsgt us.

The unknown path is the only way...

Keep sharin Christ's work...

In Christ
Jeff

Aw Diane...don't take away our biblical vocaublary quite yet...I was just beginning to see more of their meanings! ;-)

Seriously, I'm not sure how we are missing each other on this one...afterall you were the one to point out in the "war" thread, that our real threat is not from Earthly enemies, but from God himself. It isn't Islam's false god, or China's economic idols that we need be most afraid of...didn't the prophets' tell us that God has said:

"I will sound the battle cry...I will chase Edom from its land...I will repay you in accordance with your conduct...it is I the LORD who strikes the blow.

Indeed, if we direct our fear towards any other device but God, meditating upon other precepts more then God's word, we run the risk of worshipping these things...though not out of love of course.

You mentioned something of prayer meetings from your background...I understand abit more where you are coming from. We used to call those type of meetings "organ recitals." (Lord, please remember John's liver, Lois' kidney, Dave's stomach, Bob's sinuses ect.) Likewise, it may help to explain that I am recovering from a fatalist's disregard for prayer...it is taking on a new urgency because I believe it just may change things afterall...

If I have found favor in the sight of the king…

I say, really, we have to DO the right thing in order to BE the right thing.

What 'doing' is there before prayer? For some this may be elementary..or even semantics...but it's not for nothing that the visiting Christian says of this entrepenurial country "It's amazing what American Christians can achieve without the Holy Spirit." In regards to 'being' the right thing, there is this quote "What a man is, he is alone on his knees before God, and no more".

Like Rhaman and others I feel a renewed urgency of prayer...perhaps it should always be this way or perhaps I am the one who has been missing it...but in any case I just feel this is more important right now then other activities...and yes keep your eyes open! ...fix your eyes upon Jesus. I'm not talking about offering feeble wishes and coldly rattling off a list of names...and then off to Bob Evans for some social frivolity. ...I'm talking about prayer.(Please ;-) find another word for that other passive unbelieving thing you are afraid we are talking about...)

I wonder, why bother praying if you won’t accept the answers?

If we can't change God's mind, then maybe he can change ours...in any case we need to stay vitally connected if there is going to be change. This isn't just another way to spend another Wednesday evening with friends...it's a mission for the desperate and dying. In my way of thinking... these days, if we don't see ourselves as cooked, then we won't be praying properly.

Now when Mordecai found out all that was done, Mordecai tore his clothes, and put on sackcloth with ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and wailed loudly and a bitterly. And when other's around us want to distract us with happier activities, take us from fearful worship to happy song time, we refuse them. She sent clothing to Mordecai, to replace his sackcloth; but he didn't receive it..

So if God says He will destroy us...then I say pray some more. If God says we have earned our condemnation, then pray some more! A few years ago, a couple friend of ours was praying for the wife's mother to be healed of advanced cancer...when their pastor intervened and prepared them for the worst...that the mother was going to die. What to do? Well really dogged faith and hope...and love for that matter, are such rare things these days, that I asked the hopeful daughter to keep praying anyways...and I would join in the folly of prayer with them. I felt a few days of hope...but in the end the mother did indeed die. What was accomplished? Our two families became one, and faith in God was built up and sustained...not because of an outward miracle but because of a sharing of desperation. And...most important, we were awakened to how pitiful our love for one another really was...would only that we would stay in prayer and not smile blissfully as we go back to sleep, satisfied we have prayed enough.

Consider this illustration in regards to the church...We may pray for the dying patient (us) and possibly turn God's heart to help us...or we may see no end to our miseries. Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? But if God's wrath cannot be turned away from this nation then it will be far better for us going into the trial with our hearts awakened from common slumber... looking expectantly for our first love; not the mere love of charity or preaching, but the love of his appearing!

Sanctify yourselves: for tomorrow the LORD will do wonders among you...

Blessings all of you...I appreciate the hearts God is making in His people!

MC

It seems like we are fine-tuning each other’s words – not a bad idea. After all, posts only reveal a small trickle of our thoughts. Maybe I would do better to simply share my own wanderings through the uncharted world of prayer. The process of transforming my prayers from a legalistic mental framework to a New Covenant mindset has been very long, rocky, and often frustrating. The two ways are so different.

I needed to come to a point of being sick and tired of my own voice. My prayers needed to run their full course - into the ground. I remember one day feeling as if I was forcing prayer through a heavy suffocating blanket. I asked God why this was happening. He said, ‘Never mind trying to pray like the books say, just tell me what’s on you mind.” It was glorious and needed permission to be myself – to unload a mountain of stuff weighing down my mind – stuff that I was unaware of until that moment. This was no prayer for a prayer meeting. Nor was it prayer as we would define it. It was merely intense sounding-off with my heavenly therapist – who is a good listener! I became conscious of what was weighing me down. Simply unloading it in God’s presence was most freeing. I then became filled with rapturous joy in him – the true worship response, not forced. That has been far from a one-time event. God doesn’t want to hear polished sermonettes from me. But he certainly is interested in hearing me be honest – for my sake, of course. Then I can accept his rebukes, his ways - they make sense.

"What a man is, he is alone on his knees before God, and no more".

Really, my prayers have often involved the process of finding the New Life that George Warnock refers to in his article. It’s about God changing me. It’s also more about hearing God and trusting him than about winning God and running him.

We do not know whither He would lead us. And this causes us to feel very insecure. We want a charted course

MC shares a blessed outcome of prayer:

Our two families became one, and faith in God was built up and sustained...not because of an outward miracle but because of a sharing of desperation. And...most important, we were awakened to how pitiful our love for one another really was...would only that we would stay in prayer

So if God says He will destroy us...then I say pray some more.

IN other words, just hang in and wrestle through with God. I crave communion with God largely because I am incredibly weak in faith. (I’m not kidding!)

Regarding judgment and prayer: Just yesterday I read the following word given to Jeremiah at the potter’s house: “Then the LORD gave me this message: “O Israel, can I not do to you as this potter has done to his clay? As the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand.

If I announce that a certain nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed, but then that nation renounces its evil ways, I will not destroy it as I had planned.

And if I announce that I will plant and build up a certain nation or kingdom, but then that nation turns to evil and refuses to obey me, I will not bless it as I said I would.” Jer. 18: 5-10

These may be appropriate words for this thread. God does change his mind – either way! Regardless, we keep seeking him (yes, that is prayer. Okay, I’ll keep the word).

What 'doing' is there before prayer?

I once heard a preacher say: “You can’t just be without the doing. The two work together.” Would not that word help reduce the possibility of slipping into passivity - a common reaction to legalistic “doing”?

Sanctify yourselves: for tomorrow the LORD will do wonders among you...

But if God's wrath cannot be turned away from this nation then it will be far better for us going into the trial with our hearts awakened from common slumber... looking expectantly for our first love

Amen, absolutely,
Diane

You can’t just be without the doing.

Amen sister...James said as much. However...for quite awhile we Americans have been proving that you can 'do' without 'being.' This is the concern.

Is this not really a vital purpose of prayer – to transforms us?

Without a doubt...yet the spectrum of purposes is broader. There is also the release of God's power that is far beyond the scope of our character and choices. As in the scripture you pointed out...

I will not destroy it as I had planned.

So while we find in prayer the consolation for our fears and transformation of our characters, we might discover that God will move supernaturally to console and transformation an entire nation!

Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel

It is about actively and consciously making personal choices –to turn towards God. Otherwise, we just keep on drifting down the wide path, and do a lot of praying with our back towards him.

Now this may be the rub between us...I am thinking that prayer itself is a grace...no one turns to God out of their humanity. Instead, if a few people in the church carry the light, God will move and multily thhis grace on more people. Before Finney would enter a town to preach, we read how some saints would pray for the Spirit of God to move mightily. Once Finney even said of one town, "That by the time I arrived, revival had already begun."

...the possibility of slipping into passivity

You and I would be quite the pair in a prayer meetiing...we both need to admit that our associating of prayer with passivity is entirely incorrect. Paul would certainly disagree with our disinterested self-reliant churches concerning prayer. The bible hardly speaks of prayer as passive....though it does call it waiting...prayer is descibed not as a lull but as labor, not as a place of serenity, but of striving.

Most importantly, prayer is not the absense of Christian activity but the epitome of it. Productivity is not the same as power...but when there is so much work to be done this premise seems hard to accept. As a result we don't see much good from living like this...

There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.

My former lack of expectation for prayer (verses work) reminds me of the joke about the little boy who was seen running down the street pushing his bycycle s fast as he could. When a passerby asked him why he was pushing instead of peddling, the boy yelled back over his shoulder, "Because I was late and didn't have time to get on!"

Gotta go but enjoy the subject matter immensely!

MC

This is good – and timely.

There is also the release of God's power that is far beyond the scope of our character and choices.

God is surely involved in these recent postings here. I admit, since last night, writing posts has been accompanied by tears. And I wasn’t sure why - till I read:

…., Anna

You know, MC, moments before seeing your last posting, I received an invitation to partake in an upcoming advent service in an Anglican Church – yes, the place where they blessed the pets not too long ago. I cannot deny that God keeps on putting me smack dead-center in the place of religious apostasy of our day – and I know that he has called me to intercede, to WATCH, and pray. Really, it is a privilege – even enjoyable. I love working with people. But it also produces an accumulation of burdens and heaviness due to the presence of sin and Spirit-quenching everywhere. All that “stuff” can only be released in prayer (which for me seems to involve mostly tears, I’m afraid). Without prayer I get very grumpy and negative. For me, prayer keeps me clean. And prayer prepares me for intercession.

A warning: When God blesses our ministry, it is tempting to settle into the blessings, and forget that we are still sojourning in the desert. We are not in the Promised Land. Our ministry is not THE calling, just the setting for the calling. And when we linger too far from the Oasis for too long, we get quite parched. That’s my experience, anyway.

Really we are in a war. (I'm not referring to anything political, of course)

Many thanks, and God bless,
Diane

“I know, O Lord, that a man’s life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps,
Correct me, Lord, but only with justice –
not in your anger,
lest you reduce me to nothing.” Jer. 10:23,24

I cannot deny that God keeps on putting me smack dead-center in the place of religious apostasy of our day

Sounds like an intercessor to me. :-)

I have also been warmed by this little fire we have crackling here...all during the day I am mindful of the thngs we talk about, aware of the Holy Spirit building up, using any spare moment between meetngs and deadlines to discover new scriptures on prayer.

That prayers are more then mere expression, but that they are effectual...that they are accomplishing something, is a tremendous keepsake revelation to me.

Now today we had some lengthy financial pow wows at work, and by the end of them I was feeling tired, and frustrated that so much talk had to be used to get so little done. The men in the meeting did a really great job as far as meetings go...but this is the way it is with human communication...usually when we are talking with each other not much activity is being accomplished.

Compare that to conversing and even waiting with God! Imagine if we could see beyond our own confines into spiritual places. We would be greatly encouraged that God is not just "being", but that He is greatly "doing"! We learn to be still, to know who He is....and to also see the works he will do.

Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love and his wonderful deeds for men,

Now, I have tears too sister.

MC

Now, I have tears too sister.

so much talk had to be used to get so little done

The following hymn grips me today - with far deeper meaning than ever before. It is a tear-jerker for sure.

Have you any room for Jesus,
He who bore your load of sin?
As He knocks and asks admission,
Sinners, will you let Him in?

Refrain:
Room for Jesus, King of Glory!
Hasten now His Word obey;
Swing the heart’s door widely open,
Bid Him enter while you may.

Room for pleasure, room for business,
But for Christ the Crucified,
Not a place that He can enter,
In the heart for which He died?

Have you any room for Jesus,
As in grace He calls again?
O today is time accepted,
Tomorrow you may call in vain.

Room and time now give to Jesus,
Soon will pass God’s day of grace;
Soon thy heart left cold and silent,
And thy Savior’s pleading cease.

Diane