Catholics saved?

First off. I'd like to say, I am/kinda was strongly against any belief that the Catholic have salvation but this seems to be changing.

Because, resently I asked the Lord to 'remove any unbiblical truth in my heart'. Then God(not satan, I had some very convincing confirmations about this) convicts me about condemning my brothers that go to catholic church.

Also, I talked with someone that I worked with and he replied to me like any born again believer would. "Jesus said He was the only way. Christ died and rose again to take away our sins." Personally, I was shocked after that conversation trying to convert him from Catholic to Protestant.

Honestly, I know many of you might be like 'ahh, you gotta be kidding me' but honestly think about it. Do Catholics worship the same Jesus?

I think it's the same Jesus. You might point to the first commandment(when referring to their salvation), but hey, we break them all (ever listen to Ray's preaching?). Plus, I think we all (if your being honest) have 'idols' in our lives but 'idols' [b]don't[/b] cause us to lose SALVATION!!

The word says, If you believe in your heart that Jesus died and rose again and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, you WILL be saved. It doesn't say '100% accurate doctrine' nor 'perfect in worship with God'.

Do you think Mother Theresa's witness for CHRIST glorified God or satan? If you say 'satan' how? because most people say 'she was a saint' or 'a worker for Christ' not 'a worker for mary' or 'the devil'

I know I'm 'sturring' a lot of things up but honestly, take a deep consideration of this. Because we'd be rejecting billions of brothers and sisters. (over history)

Yes, they have deception but does deception mean not knowing Christ? If you say yes, I'm sorry but when you first knew Christ, you (including myself) had plently of deception in your heart. So, don't try to take a speck out when you had a log in yours.

I ask that anyone replies to this, takes a gentle spirit in doing so. Not being very hasty but in peace and humlity of God.

I grew up in a catholic church, was an atheist for several years and then came to Christ. To be honest, I have never seen a difference between the Catholic "Church" and the Evangelical "Church". They are both dead religions. Sure, there are many believers in both, but they are also filled with much deadness, lukewarmness and hypocrisy. Yes, catholics can be saved if Jesus truly is their Lord, living within them, causing them to know Him and the Father every day. This is what salvation is. There are many who profess the right doctrines in the "evangelical" world who do not have this, and are not saved. Doctrine is not and never was salvation, Jesus is salvation, and he will save those who repent and believe in Him, and he will save them by coming and living inside of them and making them alive to God and dead to sin.

Do you know the Father, or do you only know your bible, Mr. Evangelical? Do you love tradition and religion, or do you love Jesus, Mr. Catholic?

Is your head the beginning and end of your religion, or is your heart a dwellingplace of the Holy Spirit, your body the temple of the Living God? You will know if it is.

Do you know the Father, or do you only know your bible, Mr. Evangelical? Do you love tradition and religion, or do you love Jesus, Mr. Catholic?

Is your head the beginning and end of your religion, or is your heart a dwellingplace of the Holy Spirit, your body the temple of the Living God? You will know if it is.

Very challenging and true.

I too was brought up a Catholic, my Father was a Catholic and his Parents before him, and theirs before that, and I tell you this- none of us found Christ in the Catholic church.

I do not deny that it may be possible for someone to find Him there, but it would amaze me if it happened seeing as the priests do not know Him, so how can they point others to Him. It is a form of godliness but denying its power.

All this saddens me very much because I know how many millions are being (and have been) deceived through the erroneous teachings of Catholiscism.

I challenge you, find a random Catholic and ask them to look in your eyes and tell you that they are 100% sure they are going to heaven. You will have to go along way to find one.

And let us not forget what a monster the Catholic church has been through church history especially in the times of the reformation. Have their teachings changed? No, not really. They still teach faith in Christ plus- this is an abomination to the God of grace. Thats not to mention transubstantiation, idols, confession to the priest, indulgences, prayers to saints, worship of Mary- all quite honestly repulsive to the living and true God who will not share His glory with another and who freely gives salvation to every repentant, believing sinner.

I am not syaing i hate Catholics- i even have been going into a Catholic school to take some RE lessons but I hate Catholiscm- you mention the billions of Catholics who have died down the ages and i would sadly assume that a great majority of that multitude are now lifting their eyes up in hell, cursing the very religion that promised them life and heaven.

We must not go soft on the truth. Many reformers died for the truth, died in fighting the erroneous doctrines of Rome, and while the old beast may not seem quite as vile now, it is still the same beast but with a few less teeth.

I think if our Lord was on earth today- He would speak most harshly against Roman Catholiscm, because like Phariseeism it has a large percentage of truth mixed in with a small amount of error- this is the most dangerous concoction- far more dangerous than outrageous error- this I reckon is the devil's most powerful weapon.

We should reject any form of 'Christianity' that does not preach the true gospel and the true Jesus, and any teaching which does not lead people to find the living Christ. I think Roman Catholiscm is one such 'church'. Paul says if anyone comes preaching another gospel then let him be accursed- he was not grey on this area.

If any poor Catholic by the grace of God does find Christ in Catholicism then I believ the Lord will say to them 'Come our from among them and be seperate, touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you"

We must sincerely love the Catholics and lovingly try to show them the truth, but we must be lovers of the truth- our God is- and so must we- we cannot compromise with error.

Have a look at the doctrines of the Catholic church and see what they really believe- it will shock you.

Blessings,

George

The queston boils down to what makes a man saved and how can we ultimately know the salvation of a soul? While the Holy Spirit bears witness to a converted man that he or she is a child of God, the Word talks clearly of being a "new creation, old things passing away and all things becoming new" and that newness is an ever-growing becoming like Jesus.

I do believe there are believers that are in the catholic church who God by His outstretched arm has saved within it. however, i believe that those believers who are still going there need to be forewarned of what the catholic church ultimately stands for and to be lovingly yet boldly directed to leave.

though christians may be IN the catholic church, catholicism as a whole is a false religion. it does not believe Jesus is the way the truth and the life. it believes it intellectually but it sure diminishes the atoning work of Jesus the way it talks of Mary and the saints.

remember the woman who told Jesus "blessed is the womb from which you were born!" (speaking of Mary obviously). Jesus responded "even more blessed is he who does the will of God." Though Mary had a special favor from God in being the mother of Jesus, we are just as blessed, even more blessed Jesus said to be His followers and disciples. No favoritism whatsoever. Yet this is hard for a catholic to hear.

not if thier theology is catholic

Hello...

I know many individuals that came to the Lord while attending a Catholic Church. Yes, many of the official doctrinal beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church are far from Scriptural. But God's hand is still able to reach people within the walls of that corrupt organization. I know a few "newborn" individuals that truly love the Lord and still attend their home "church." But you can already tell that they are discovering the flaws in the Church's doctrine.

I know some other individuals who were saved while still attending Catholic, Mormon, and even far-out unscriptural Protestant churches. One might point out that there are some "evangelical" and "charismatic" churches that are just as doctrinally corrupt as the Roman Catholic Church. The point is that the "official" doctrine of a church never saved a single person. It is faith in Christ that saves us.

It is important that individuals reach out to Christ IN SPITE of their religious or doctrinal affiliation (or lack thereof). Will individuals that truly meet the Lord continue to attend such churches? As these individuals grow in the Lord, they will leave the organizations that preach blatantly false doctrines (like the Roman Catholic Church). Their hunger for the Truth (along with the grace of God) will guide them to "lie down in green pastures."

Keith Green (who was ethnically Jewish) found the Lord after a long search through traditional and non-traditional religions. He eventually came to the Lord at a small home meeting. Yet when he came to the Lord, some of his doctrinal beliefs were quite flawed (even questioning the deity of Christ). However, his conversion was [u]real[/u]. It wasn't long before Brother Keith lined up his beliefs with the Word of God instead of vice versa. His story, [i]No Compromise[/i], is a wonderful story of God's power to redeem in the midst of blatantly false beliefs.

:-)

There was a little boy walking down the street carrying a basket of newborn puppies.

A catholic priest saw this little boy and asked the little boy what he had in the basket.

"Oh sir I have some catholic puppies in here" said the little boy. Well that just made that priests day, and he walked away joyfully.

About two weeks later, that same little bot was carrying that same basket full of puppies, when that same priest saw him. The priest asked "Little boy, how are those catholic puppies doing?".

"Oh no sir, these aren't catholic puppies..." said the little boy before he was interrupted.

"What?" asked the priest. "Two weeks ago you told me they were catholic puppies."

To this the little boy replied "Yes sir I did, but now they have their eyes open". :lol: ;-)

George said

I challenge you, find a random Catholic and ask them to look in your eyes and tell you that they are 100% sure they are going to heaven. You will have to go along way to find one.

If you look at my orginal post, I think I stated that (i guess not clear enough).

This Catholic that I work with. Told ME, that "jesus is the ONLY way to heaven." and confessed Him as Lord FROM THE HEART. When I was speaking wtih him about Catholism.

I know what the Catholics believe. But! My question [b]wasn't[/b] "is there anything wrong with the Catholic church", but my question was [u]"Can a Catholic be saved?"[/u]

Mattie, Good balanced post.

Krispy, I totally understand your point of view. It's actually something I've strongly been conviced of for a while till resently.

I've been hearing on the radio (http://www.spiritfm905.com/) that Catholics believe in 'Grace, not of works for salvation'. This is a local CATHOLIC radio station started by the Catholic Diocese of St. Petersburg, Florida. This station has been around for numerous years now and plays GREAT Christian music (ya contemporary but that's a different topic).

Personally, when I was younger, I had an experience (chatting) with a 'Charasmatic Catholic' and I felt the presence of God when I was with her **(It was God, not demons, I know what demons are like, i.e. I've casted some out)**.

Also, resently this guy at my work, plus my uncle (both catholics) say, from their hearts, that they love Jesus and believe He died and rose again, and He is the only way to heaven.

These events over the past few years have caused me to 'rethink' my personal theology about them being saved or not. (Not condoning their idols and such)

Can you Krispy cite referances to the Catecism where they believe in works above grace for salvation?

I'm interested in the reply. Thanks everyone.

I too am an Ex-Catholic.

When I got saved (heard the gospel in a Baptist church)it took the Holy Spirit three months to show me the errors of the Catholic church and prompt me to leave.

If someone claims to be a born again believer then they are no longer a Roman catholic because by definition they must deny the teachings of the Church. The main one being that the Mass is an ongoing sacrifice for the remission of sins for both the dead and the living. You can't possibly believe in the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary and at the same time believe and participate in the Mass. This is an oxymoron.

Be not deceived the modern Catholic has been taught about being born again, justification by faith and trusting in Jesus. The problem is that they have the Catholic and not the Biblical definition.

Yes your friend may say they trust in Jesus to get to heaven, so did I when I was Catholic. But I was not trusting in Jesus Christ ALONE. I was also trusting in my good works, the sacraments etc.

Ask them why God should let them into heaven. If they say that it is by FAITH and FAITH ALONE in the shed blood of Jesus Christ and that they are not trusting in anything else-then you probably have a saved friend. Pray for them and encourage them to leave the catholic church and get into a Bible believing/preaching Church.

I have personally found Charismatic Catholics the most difficult to witness to because they talk alot about Jesus and about being born again. When you press them though, they will admit they were born again when baptized as an infant and had a blessing which resulted in speaking in unknown tongues. These Catholics have a greater devotion to Mary, the Mass, praying the rosary etc than those who have not experienced the 'blessing'.

However, they are lost and heading for hell and need to hear the Biblical gospel.

There is a lot of double-speak in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church.

But how is this for starter's?

"The Church does not know of any other means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude"

"The faithful are born anew by baptism"

"Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ"

The Council of Trent in the 16th century placed an ANATHEMA against anyone who believed that you are justified by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE.

The new Catechism quotes the Councel of Trent many times and endorses it's teachings.

Be warned the Catholic church NEVER changes!

Hi DocH...

DocH wrote:
There is a lot of double-speak in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church.

But how is this for starter's?

"The Church does not know of any other means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude"

"The faithful are born anew by baptism"

"Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ"

The Council of Trent in the 16th century placed an ANATHEMA against anyone who believed that you are justified by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE.

The new Catechism quotes the Councel of Trent many times and endorses it's teachings.

Be warned the Catholic church NEVER changes!

The question, reiterated twice by the original poster, concerns whether or not a Catholic can be saved. In my opinion, ANY person can be saved regardless of how corrupt the organization in which they participate. However, new believers seek the Lord through prayer and the Word of God, they will begin to be led more adequately by the Spirit of God. As many believers can testify, this can sometimes take a little time.

We should be mindful of our manner of speech when confronting individuals that claim a relationship with Jesus Christ yet still attend an obviously flawed denomination. Most Catholics have little understanding of the official doctrines or history of the Church. They simply attend because they have [i]always attended[/i] (at least on Christmas, for weddings and funerals, etc...). The doctrines of the Church are usually not [i]taught[/i] during the mass. Rather, it is demonstrated as a [i]tradition[/i]. We, as evangelical protestants, also have some "traditions" that are handed down by our churches (i.e., the format of a service - opening prayer, praise, worship, offering, announcements, preaching, altar call, closing prayer, etc...). As most of us can testify, long-standing traditions are often hard to break -- and often stand as an obstacle to real revival.

Most former Catholics that I know left the Roman Catholic Church after a desire to truly know God. They read the Word of God and yearned for an intimate relationship with the God of the Word. As they sought the Lord, they noticed certain inconsistencies between the Word and the traditions of the Church. Eventually, a hunger for the truth led them out of the Roman Catholic Church. This is also true of individuals that left several other notorious denominations or religious sects. It is amazing how the grace of God leads us when we truly seek to know the Lord more adequately!

We must be careful, however, that we do not come across as self-righteous when we approach those that claim to be believers but still attend their former churches. We might begin to sound like the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14...

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

:-)

RCC has all of our "christian" terms as "grace", "atonement" ...ect...
However, it is in their definitions of their terms that matters.
Their definitions are not as we know them.

And the JWs.

Hmm. Where does it say in God's word that you must believe in Grace alone to be saved?

I know the bible does say that you were saved by grace, but when did it ever say you must have the belief in that doctrine? (It doesn't and you all know that)

I think I agree with Chris's idea. "ANY person can be saved regardless of how corrupt the organization in which they participate. However, new believers seek the Lord through prayer and the Word of God, they will begin to be led more adequately by the Spirit of God. As many believers can testify, this can sometimes take a little time."

I work with Catholics in the christian bookshop and I do know some born again Catholics but I do find that the Catholics that I do know nothing about Grace and I find I am being analysed all the time!!

I also have some Catholic friends who believe in the gospel of grace, I know some catholics do not even own a bible and I hate there praying to mary!!
Dom

It is certainly true that if God wants you, He will find you - even in a "church." After He got me reading my Bible and praying daily, it was only a matter of months before He had me baptized, giving my testimony, heartfully repenting of my sins, off of cigarettes and alcohol (without any kind of drugs or relapse) and totally disgusted with TV. The hard part was that I didn't really know about the Holy Spirit, and since no one really talked much about Him, it took me awhile to find out what had happened. Thankfully He led me to a book on the Holy Spirit by Torrey in the Pastors library.

deltadom wrote:
I work with Catholics in the christian bookshop and I do know some born again Catholics but I do find that the Catholics that I do know nothing about Grace and I find I am being analysed all the time!!

I also have some Catholic friends who believe in the gospel of grace, I know some catholics do not even own a bible and I hate there praying to mary!!
Dom

If they are truly born again then they are NOT Catholics.

I would suggest they are believers who are in transition and are currently attending a Catholic church.

You need to exhort them to get out ASAP.

Hmm. Why must you leave the church immediatly? Scriptures please.

Many Christian churches have disgusting doctrines probly worse off than the Catholics (no joke). And they are born again and still attend that church.

Leaving the RCC doesn't mean your saved. Yes, It's good advice but not necessary. But I would say that it is necessary for their growth.

lovegrace wrote:
Hmm. Why must you leave the church immediatly? Scriptures please.

Many Christian churches have disgusting doctrines probly worse off than the Catholics (no joke). And they are born again and still attend that church.

Leaving the RCC doesn't mean your saved. Yes, It's good advice but not necessary. But I would say that it is necessary for their growth.

Because the mass is IDOLATROUS and Paul stated "flee from idolatry".

Correct me if I'm wrong flee has the suggestion of doing something urgently.

Also, how can two walk together unless they are agreed (Amos 3)?

I guess I didn't make the scriptures clear for this discussion, sorry about that.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and [b]no one[/b] can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

No where does it say that 'with salvation, one must flee from their church of deception'.

I find it hard with the Catholics in our store does can anybody pray for them!! and any other Cattholic I know !! I find it hard as my christian bookshop is a multi-denominational bookshop. I did not know whether to put this on the prayer list or here!! Please move it!!
DOm

Love grace you said:

Hmm. Where does it say in God's word that you must believe in Grace alone to be saved?

Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

and Rom 3:28
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

You know very well I am sure that the Bible teaches from cover to cover that salvation is entirely through God's grace alone- the minute we add our pinch of good works, or the minute we throw in our 2 penny's worth of our own effort and righteousness we have forefeited God's free gift of grace- He will not give grace and salvation to those who think they have contributed something to it- no matter how small this conrtibution may be.

God is hot on this- He loves the fact that His grace if free and amazing! Thats why we read in Eph 1:6 that the gospel is to the praise of the glory of God's grace- to say anything else is to insult God.

This is just so important. The gospel of grace- that salvation is only and entirely through faith in Christ alone by the grace of God alone (as scripture so clearly teaches) that Paul says to the Galatians in chapter 1:7-9

"there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

Thats pretty strong language don't you think- if the Holy Spirit of God is so strong on this then shouldn't we be- we must hate all perversions of the gospel, no matter how similar they may seem to the biblical gospel in so many ways.

The devil is clever- i am convinced that Roman Catholicsm is one of his most potent weapons in dragging people to hell- oh the poor people.

And lovegrace, with a user name like that you should be the one defending the doctrine of grace from the subtle errors that would seek to pervert it. I say that with respect.

And I still challenge you to ask your friend to look you in the eye and tell you that he/she is 100% sure that they are saved and going to heaven if they were to die tonight.

They may profess to believe in the Lord Jesus just like we do, they know the gospel (or most of it) sure, they may even say- yes i am trusting in Christ- but when the rubber hits the road, nearly all of them sadly (because of what they have been taught) have no confidence of salvation because their salvation partly depends on them. How sad.

And i repeat the words from scripture which I believe that our Loving Lord will speak to any Catholic who by His grace has found Him 'in spite' of the Catholic church:

2 Cor 6:17-18

" Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
“ I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty.”

Love in Christ, and may He lead us by His Spirit into all truth.

George

No where does it say that 'with salvation, one must flee from their church of deception'.

“We are in the world, but not of it.” I consider organized religion of any kind to be of the world, and therefore we must never sell our souls to it (be in it). We are in Christ, and we serve God faithfully wherever (ex: church) he plants us. Churches never own anyone’s souls, though they often try to do so.

I find it most interesting that when Paul saw the light from heaven, his first question was: “What shall I do Lord?” Acts 22:10 Paul could have blurted out all kinds of things in such a moment of shock, but his question revealed his heart’s desire: To obey his Lord. He had truly heard the Lord’s voice.

Yes, God’s voice can speak just about anywhere– including corrupt churches, esp where the Scripture is read. When people hear the voice of God, an indication of accepting it is a desire to give him the ownership of their life:“What shall I do Lord?” They are willing to leave family, friends, commitments, security, familiarity, etc if God calls them out. Yet they must be willing to remain, even if doing so means receiving rejection. Either way, it costs to follow Christ.

God will lead his own. “… he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they KNOW his voice. But they will never follow a stranger. In fact, they will run away from him because they will not recognize a stranger’s voice.” Jn 10:5

All that to say: Yes, you can be saved in the RC, but you are also saved FROM it, so that you can belong to (be in) a different Kingdom – God’s kingdom.

I would also like to encourage you to urge your evangelical friends to leave their dead churches as well. Here are some examples of what the church is supposed to be, so if it doesnt match this (regardless of what their doctrine says), then it is probably just as dangerous as a catholic church:

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

John 17:21-23 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Yes, indeed, encourage all of your brothers and sisters to come out of dead churches that do not match the biblical description. Though, I do believe this will include as many evangelicals as it does catholics, for it has been as rare for me to see an evangelical church that fits this description as it is for me to see a catholic church that fits this description. ;-)

Does the bible say we are saved by believing that it is by grace alone? No. The bible says we are saved by His grace through a faith that has been given by God. We are not saved by believing in Gods grace, we are saved by God's grace. And we are saved by His grace through Faith. Faith in His grace? No, Faith in Jesus, the Person. No, not an intellectual faith, but a faith of the heart (For, with the heart man believes unto righteousness and then he is able to confess with his mouth unto salvation, Rom 10). What is this faith? It is the same kind of faith that two friends share in one another. It is the same kind of faith that a husband has in his wife or a wife in her husband. The husband must not merely believe she exists to truly be her husband, but must trust her and in trusting her walk with her. This is the kind of faith that Jesus requires. Through it one begins to see Jesus more and more, and their doctrine becomes purified, and more importantly, their life is purified.

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:4-6

Why do we focus on these externals for salvation. We expect people to have perfect doctrine in order to consider them to be saved. Or to atleast match our chosen 5 fundamentals, or our 7 fundamentals, or howover many you may choose. This is wicked. This is not what Jesus taught. To expect someone to conform to a list of doctrines in order to consider them saved is no different than expecting someone to conform to a list of standards, or laws. They are both externals. What does Paul say? To live is Christ. Jesus is salvation, and as he purifies you you will become more perfect, both intellectually and practically through obedience.

Why have we chosen things such as the Virgin Birth or Saved By Grace to be the "fundamental" doctrines one must conform to in order to be saved? What about the doctrine of Abiding in Jesus. Or the doctrine of Repent and Believe. Or the doctrine of being Ready at the Coming. Why are these not part of the fundamentals? If I had to choose, I would take Abiding in Jesus over the virgin birth any day. One is just a fact, the other is true Life. Ofcourse, I believe both. But this is the simple fact: Eternal life is knowing the Father and Jesus (john 17:3), and it is something that starts now. Eternal life is not something that begins when you die. If you know the Father and Jesus you have eternal life, if you dont, then you dont. Knowing Him is something that starts at repentance, faith and the new birth, and continues forever. This is salvation. Dont choose 7 fundamentals or 5 fundamentals or 3 fundamentals, dont choose a law or a list of standards to decide if someone is saved, just choose Jesus. If you know Jesus, you will be able to see Him when He truly is in others... even through the weird doctrines and strange standards. And, as you get to know Him, you will be able to show Him more of the Jesus you know, and He, likewise, and purify one another as you both seek and get to know Jesus.

"But remember, sinner, it is not thy hold of Christ that saves thee-it is Christ; it is not thy joy in Christ that saves thee-it is Christ; it is not even faith in Christ, though that is the instrument-it is Christ's blood and merits; therefore, look not to thy hope, but to Christ, the source of thy hope; look not to thy faith, but to Christ, the author and finisher of thy faith; and if thou dost that, ten thousand devils cannot throw thee down, but as long as thou lookest at thyself, the meanest of those evil spirits may tread thee beneath his feet. It is not faith, it is not our doings, it is not our feelings upon which we must rest, but upon Christ, and on Christ alone."
-Charles Spurgeon

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Executive Summary of New Testament Biblical Truth

HE THAT HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT AND IS IN TURN HAD BY THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A CHRISTIAN - HE THAT DOES NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT AND IN TURN IS NOT HAD BY THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT A CHRISTIAN - - - Christ in you the hope of glory.

And this is the condemnation that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Walk in the light as He is in the light.

Krispy,

Spot on. Yes and Amen.

I have met many people who have been lead so far from the Gospel through Catholicism, I've met people from across 3 different generations who, not only struggle to understand the Gospel but infact believe in characterstics of God that I have found to be [b]totally opposite[/b]to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Like Krispy, I am not being judgemental towards people, but on the doctrines and lies that hold those in the Catholic Church in bondage to this world and to sin.

Adam.

bro Krispy

For instance, you quoted 1 Corinthians 12:3, and you made bold the words no one in reference to saying "Jesus is Lord". Do you really think that Paul meant if someone just utters the words "Jesus is Lord", then it came from the Holy Spirit?

hey bro, i read that and it prompted me to do some digging...the scripture in question says this:

[b]Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: F41 and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. [/b]

The phrase "Jesus is Lord" is a true statement. It is eternal truth... He is Lord. Even the demons know that. But just uttering those words does not make one a Christian. If it did, then you'd better be prepared to accept Mormons and JW's as your brothers in Christ.

i'm not sure any demon has ever confessed Christ to be Lord of all but i am reminded of when Peter confessed Christ was Lord and what did Christ say? Matthew 16

[b]13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, F32 and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ[/b]

note that Christ asked everyone else who they thought He was and some got some things right and others were off but evidently Peter was hit by Holy Ghost and confessed rightly who Christ was. Nobody else did so evidently Holy Spirit has to quicken you to Christ as Lord or else you will never know nor confess it. Let us remember this piece of info, at this time Peter had NOT YET received Holy Spirit yet he was made privy to this Truth. Paul said rightly that NO MAN could confess Christ as Lord except by Holy Spirit however the confession of this doesn't end at speaking the words only nor does it mean Holy Spirit is living in you either. Matthew Henry (though wrong on some things is right on many and i've learned a lot from his commentary)says this about confessing Christ

[i]He shows them how they might discern those gifts that were from the Spirit of God, true spiritual gifts: No man, speaking by the Spirit, calls Jesus accursed. Thus did both Jews and Gentiles: they blasphemed him as an impostor, and execrated his name, and deemed it abominable. And yet many Jews, who were exorcists and magicians, went about, pretending to work wonders by the Spirit of God (vid. Lightfoot’s Horae in loc. ), and many among the Gentiles pretended to inspiration. Now the apostle tells them none could act under the influence, nor by the power, of the Spirit of God, who disowned and blasphemed Christ: for the Spirit of God bore uncontrollable witness to Christ by prophecy, miracles, his resurrection from the dead, the success of his doctrine among men, and its effect upon them; and could never so far contradict itself as to declare him accursed. And on the other hand no man could say Jesus was the Lord (that is, live by this faith, and work miracles to prove it), but it must be by the Holy Ghost. To own this truth before men, and maintain it to the death, and live under the influence of it, could not be done without the sanctification of the Holy Ghost. No man can call Christ Lord, with a believing subjection to him and dependence upon him, unless that faith be wrought by the Holy Ghost. No man can confess this truth in the day of trial but by the Holy Ghost animating and encouraging him. Note, We have as necessary a dependence on the Spirit’s operation and influence for our sanctification and perseverance as on the mediation of Christ for our reconciliation and acceptance with God: and no man could confirm this truth with a miracle but by the Holy Ghost. No evil spirit would lend assistance, if it were in his power, to spread a doctrine and religion so ruinous to the devil’s kingdom. The substance of what the apostle asserts and argues here is that whatever pretences there were to inspiration or miracles, among those who were enemies to Christianity, they could not be from the Spirit of God; but no man could believe this with his heart, nor prove with a miracle that Jesus was Christ, but by the Holy Ghost: so that the extraordinary operations and powers among them did all proceed from the Spirit of God. [/i]

so we see the context is broader, not just confession, but working miracles, not just miracles which the enemy could counterfeit but miracles inspired by and empowered by HOly Spirit. the issue however is confessing Christ as Lord in all things ie, in how we live our lives which brings me to what you said here

But there are many who think that when they say this they are speaking the Holy Spirit, but they have not in actuality made Him Lord.

and this is key. to confess Christ as Lord with our lips is one thing and indeed one can't do that without Holy Spirit quickening him but as we see with Peter, he wasn't indwelt yet so this doesn't mean being qucikened to a truth means Holy Spirit is in you.

I'm afraid that your interpretation and understanding of scripture is quite possibly setting you up for deception. You need to seriously consider a hard study of sound Biblical doctrine.

The same could be said for any of us, you myself, anyone. This is one of the reasons i love this place, we can reason together and God can remove dross and sharpen us against one another and teach us and use us to teach others. Let it be known that we shall all speak on a much broader stage than these boards soon. Krispy, you will see yourself on TBN one day, being used of God to set the record straight on some things which you see there which bother you. ;-)

God bless you all

Did ya'll know that Catholics teach that who ever teaches Justification by faith alone in Christ is a heritic, and let them be a curse. Pretty harsh words, but very true. They don't believe in salvation the way scriptures teach us to believe. Just like they don't believe in the rapture, because it conflicts with purgatory. Oh ya they also believe Mary was Imaculate (sinless) and ever virgin and never died. Read Romans 10:1-5 To me it explains the Catholic Church. I think if we think they are OK we will never see them truly saved. We must convince them out of Love. God Bless