False Prophets Chaos!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-292748952186052796&q=benny+hinn+tongues&hl=en

LOOK AT THIS VIDEO ON THE CURRENT CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT!

not everything on this video is false... Not all is of God

some is definitely emotion. some probably started in the spirit, then got carried away. Some of it is men of God who aren't perfect in word or speech. Lots of stuff is taken out of true context and even the manner in which it was meant.

The speaker gives absolutely no balance in scripture and is totally one sided.

"if any man offend not in word, that man is perfect lacking nothing, able to bridle the whole body."

lets not be so quick to excuse.

Don't you mean false teachers?

2 Peter
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

If, in fact, you mean false teachers I have a questions for you:

- Are they denying the Master (who bought them)?
[i][size=x-small](P.S.: Let it be noted that the false teachers are BORN AGAIN christians, who once were saved, but then denied the Master, WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringin on themselves swift destruction.)[/size][/i]

the charismatic movement has some exaggerations and some errors, but they should not be labeled as the False Teachers in the bible, nor false prophets, they are our brothers in Christ.

Watched the video.

Nothing to say really, just use our own judgment.

God bless.

(P.S.: Let it be noted that the false teachers are BORN AGAIN christians, who once were saved, but then denied the Master, WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringin on themselves swift destruction.)

Look at this verse CAREFULLY! I still haven't heard a DECENT explanation from an arminian.

1 John 3:6
"Whoever (habitually practices) sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."

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Heres another video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xCwmw8tf7k

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the charismatic movement has some exaggerations and some errors, but they should not be labeled as the False Teachers in the bible, nor false prophets, they are our brothers in Christ.

2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them— bringing swift destruction on themselves."

You can't go to hell and have ever been saved. (1 John 3:6)

not everything on this video is false... Not all is of God

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Oh gracealone, i have held my tongue for as long as i can.

You not only withhold the fullness of your personal walk, but also the fullness of your ministry.

1co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

This more excellent way is not an essential for salvation, but it is not only a greater and closer walk with jesus, but i say, IT MAY BE THE ESSENTIAL FOR THE SALVATION OF THOSE YOU CARE ABOUT.

Ac 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many * * days hence.

to paraphrase. DON'T WORRY ABOUT PREACHING TO THE GENTILES OR THE ENDS OF THE EARTH UNTIL YOU ARE BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY GHOST. gracealone, you post about the importance of evangelism, but you rail and persecute the means by which God gives us to confirm our message.

1co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER:
1co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

What do these demonstrations look like. Signs, wonders, miracles.

My pastor once told me we don't seek God for the signs. For they are just a sign, they can't give you life. He said we don't go to McDonald's for the golden arches but for the hamburgers. We don't come to God for signs, but for the bread of life.

I agree completely. However, IF I DON'T SEE THE GOLDEN ARCHES, I KNOW IM NOT AT MCDONALDS. If i don't see signs wonders and miracles, i know that Jesus isn't here.

Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mr 16:17 And these SIGNS shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mr 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

If there are no signs, do you really believe?

The devil has stripped you of many things. "Fear hath torment." that word torment mean in the greek means, "to prune." Your fear of the fullness of God has pruned your ministry.

Last i say this, Jesus said, if you know the father you would know me, for i and the father are one. right? Well i say, if you don't know the holy spirit, you don't know jesus, for Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one! Do you know the holy spirit when he manifests himself? Let me say, I guess that you probably are truly saved. And i know that the signs and wonders of God are puzzling and perplexing, but as the bible says, "that christ may dwell in your hearts by faith." So must we receive all things of God by faith, and not the natural man, which receives not the things of the spirit.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be ?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

I also ask for scriptural proof that the signs and wonders that followed the apostles are not for today.

First off you're going on a tangent. I'm not talking about all charismatics... I'm talking about the ones on my videos. Also, show me in history where Charles Surgeon, Martin Luther, George Whitfield, John MacArthur SPOKE IN GIBERISH. Besides that, I have to say that the fruit of the movement is best desribed by these videos.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

These wer intelligible languages meant as a sign to unbelievers.

1 Cor 14

12
Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers

40
Let all things be done decently and in order.

15
What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

26
Let all things be done for edification.

33
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

1 cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. (What is this better way??? Its LOVE not tounges)

DON'T WORRY ABOUT PREACHING TO THE GENTILES OR THE ENDS OF THE EARTH UNTIL YOU ARE BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY GHOST. gracealone, you post about the importance of evangelism, but you rail and persecute the means by which God gives us to confirm our message.

First off, all true Christians (charismatic or not) have been baptized into the spirit PERIOD!

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

I'm not persecuting the TRUE church. If you were a christian you'd be on Gods side here (Matthew 12:30). You wouldn't tell me not to preach the gospel. Also, God converts sinners and that is our means of CONFIRMATION.

Besides all this LOOK at what YOU'RE DEFENDING! These people on this video are complete heretics even denying the trinity!!!!!!

Ac 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was * at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Ac 19:2 He said unto them *, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed ? And they said unto him *, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Ac 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized ? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Ac 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Ac 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

All believers are not baptized in the holy ghost, but with the baptism of repentance. The baptism in the holy ghost is a separate work.

Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound ?
Ro 6:2 God forbid *. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein *
Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

You also passed over 1 cor 13:1

1co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

I know that love is the principal, but tongues is important. And the tongues of angels is the gibberish you are talking about.

I do believe you should preach either way, baptized in the h.g. or not, but you won't be anointed for the fullness of your calling.

I do acknowledge the greatness of the fruit of the men you listed. However, i believe they would have done more had they been baptized in the H.G.

The baptism in the Holy Ghost is way more than tongues. Tongues is just the outward evidence of an inward filling.

And before you call the work of the spirit of God to be of devils....

Mt 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mt 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mt 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mt 12:4 How he entered into * the house of God, and did eat the shewbread *, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mt 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mt 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mt 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mt 12:9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
Mt 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful * to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mt 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out ?
Mt 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Mt 12:13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
Mt 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
Mt 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
Mt 12:16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
Mt 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mt 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Mt 12:19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Mt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Mt 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Mt 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
Mt 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
Mt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
Mt 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand ?
Mt 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out ? therefore * * they shall be your judges.
Mt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mt 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Mt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever * * speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever * * speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The Holy Spirit you are persecuting is the same holy spirit that dwells in you as a believer. I do believe your saved. I just think you need to be baptized in the holy ghost. i don't try to offend by seeming like I'm on a tangent, but i get tired of people calling the work of God the work of devils. You had better be careful of what you accuse to be false. I do agree that leading people around on ropes like dogs is the persuasion of devils. Not necessarily possession, but emotion and lack of understanding. Also note what the onlookers said about the disciples at pentecost.

Ac 2:13 * Others mocking said *, These men are full of new wine.
Ac 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Ac 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Ac 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Why did they think they were drunk? Probably because that is an effect of the holy spirit. I have experience it many times and you might too if you believed and surrendered to the work of God.
God bless.

Here's my thoughts on this, that while it's clear on the video. and that some groups have made some real errors in judgement, we all have to be careful when you watch edited pieces of information through any media without knowing the whole. Proverbs says that the fool answers without knowing the whole. In much the same way that the media (news reporters) exploits a story for thier own purposes in order to move public opinion the direction they want to, this video has the potential to do the same.

Having said that I disagreed with most of these ministries shown on the video many many years ago anyway, but that's for me personally.

Some of the video clips were decepetive (From the director). Like the director cutted the clip before it would've been put in context, then not applical for the video.

Yes the video is biased, but that's nothing to not exspect. Take everything with a grain of salt.

Man, that last part. UGH! Oh God, I know Your heart breaks, they have left and denied their first love.

Oh, I pray that the Love of Money be removed not only from the mainline 'evangelists' but the rest of the church as well.

First off, all true Christians (charismatic or not) have been baptized into the spirit PERIOD.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

If you believe otherwise then YOU MUST account for this CLEAR verse.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

This verse, I believe, refers to conversion. We find the same in Gal. 3:27 and Romans 8:16. But what is the "Baptism" which Paul speaks of to the believers in Ephesus in Acts 19? "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

If we follow your understanding of I Cor. 12:13 (which Paul wrote!) Why would Paul even need to ask this question to men who were already believers in Christ? True, we are all baptized into Christ by one baptism at conversion, I wonder, is there a separate filling to "tarry" after in the upper room of our hunger for God?

Well, I happen to belive there is (for I have experienced it by the grace of God), and men like DL Moody and Finney also discovered it, and wrote of it. Do some research on DL Moody in particular; when he was baptised in the Holy Spirit, his ministry and prayers took on an entirely new dimension. RA Torrey tells about it. Finney himself had a very dramatic Holy Spirit baptism, which he described vividly. I'll see if I can find it and post it here.

I understand, of course, that you are driven by Calvinistic unfluences and have been taught from the pulpit that there is no such baptism to seek - and that you may even consider Finney a heretic, but certainly you cannot discount his revival that even your staunch Calvinistic precursors such as Asahel Nettleton and Beecher had to admit that God moved extraordinarily through Charles Finney - especially during the famous 1830-31 revival in Rochester, NY. Now, why would Finney and Moody lie of such a baptism if everyone simply gets baptized and filled by the Holy Spirit at conversion? Why would Ravenhill and Wilkerson and Keith Green and Moody and Finney and Cymbala and others lie about a Spirit Baptism that is separate from the conversion experience?

Brother Paul

(edit) Here are some short, somewhat abridged testionies of famous men of God who have experienced the Spirit's Baptism after conversion.

D. L. Moody
D.L. Moody was a successful minister but by his own admission later, he lacked the power in his ministry. One day two women came up to him after a service. They said,
"We have been praying for you."
"Why don't you pray for the people?" he asked.
"Because you need the power of the Spirit," they said.
"I need the power! Why," said Mr. Moody, in relating the incident years after, "I thought I had power. I had the largest congregations in Chicago, and there were many conversions.”

Moody also said that in a sense, he was satisfied. He was in a comfort zone. But these two praying women rocked the boat. They told him that they were praying for an anointing by the Holy Spirit for D.L. to have a special service to God. He could not get this off his mind and he said, “There came a great hunger in my soul. I did not know what it was and I began to cry out to God as never before. I felt I did not want to live if I could not have this power for service”.

After the great fire of Chicago, DL was working to raise money to rebuild a tabernacle. He said his heart was not into it because he kept crying out to God to fill him. He withdrew and prayed during a visit to New York to raise money and he cried that God would fill him with His Spirit. DL describes it this way:

“Well, one day, in the city of New York -- oh, what a day! -- I cannot describe it, I seldom refer to it; it is almost too sacred an experience to name. Paul had an experience of which he never spoke for fourteen years. I can only say that God revealed Himself to me, and I had such an experience of His love that I had to ask Him to stay His hand. I went to preaching again. The sermons were not different; I did not present any new truths, and yet hundreds were converted. I would not now be placed back where I was before that blessed experience if you should give me all the world -- it would be as the small dust of the balance.”

R. A. Torrey
R. A. Torrey gives his testimony:
The address of this afternoon, and the addresses of the days immediately to follow, are the outcome of an experience, and that experience was the outcome of a study of the Word of God. After I had been a Christian for some years, and after I had been in the ministry for some years, my attention was strongly attracted to certain phrases found in the Gospels and in the Acts of the Apostles, and in the Epistles, such as "baptized with the Holy Spirit," "filled with the Spirit," "the Holy Spirit fell upon them," "the gift of the Holy Spirit," "endued with power from on high," and other closely allied phrases. As I studied these various phrases in their context, it became clear to me that they all stood for essentially the same experience; and it also became clear to me that God has provided for each child of His in this present dispensation that they should be thus "baptized with the Spirit," or, "filled with the Spirit."

As I studied the subject still further, I became convinced that they described an experience which I did not myself possess, and I went to work to secure for myself the experience thus described. I sought earnestly that I might "be baptized with the Holy Spirit." I went at it very ignorantly. I have often wondered if anyone ever went at it any more ignorantly than I did. But while I was ignorant, I was thoroughly sincere and in earnest, and God met me, as He always meets the sincere and earnest soul, no matter how ignorant he may be; and God gave me what I sought, I was "baptized with the Holy Spirit." And the result was a transformed Christian life and a transformed ministry.
(I have added the bold for emphasis).

Charles G. Finney
I was powerfully converted on the morning of the month of October, 1822. In the evening of the same day I received overwhelming baptisms of the Holy Ghost, that went through me, as it seemed to me, body and soul. I immediately found myself endued with such power from on high that a few words dropped here and there to individuals were the means of their immediate conversion. My words seemed to fasten like barbed arrows in the souls of men. They cut like a sword. They broke the heart like a hammer. Multitudes can attest to this. Oftentimes a word dropped without my remembering it would fasten conviction, and often result in almost immediate conversion. Sometimes I would find myself, in a great measure, empty of this power. I would go and visit, and find that I made no saving impression. I would exhort and pray, with the same result. I would then set apart a day for private fasting and prayer, fearing that this power had departed from me, and would inquire anxiously after the reason of this apparent emptiness. After humbling myself, and crying out for help, the power would return upon me with all its freshness. This has been the experience of my life.
---
Stephen Olford gives a similar testimony as he checked into a motel and committed to stay and pray until he was baptized by the Holy Spirit so God could empower him for service. God answered and gave him a powerful ministry reaching the world through radio during the golden radio years and he continues his ministry by teaching ministers. Billy Graham said that Stephen Olford had a powerful influence over his life. Stephen prayed with Billy until he was baptized and then God exploded Billy Graham’s evangelistic ministry.

I have included some of the testimonies of some of the greatest theologians and evangelists in history. Why have we missed this important truth about the gospel? This truth is overshadowed by counterfeits and sensationalism which directs us away from the true power God desires for every believer. Also notice that none of these men reported speaking in tongues. It is a misguided belief that tongues is a required sign as proof of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. By their testimonies and writings, none of these men ever spoke in tongues, yet when they were baptized by the Holy Spirit, it transformed their lives and empowered them for God’s service. The baptism of the Holy Spirit immediately shifted their focus from their ministry to God’s purpose. The purpose of speaking in tongues is not important to this study. What is important is that God’s power is like God’s grace. He offers it equally to all

I kindly ask you to keep an open mind by the power of the Spirit.

"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" If we follow your logic, based on your understanding of I Cor. 12:13 (which Paul wrote!) Why would he even need to ask this question? We are all baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit at conversion, this is true. But is there something else to "tarry" after?

Just because he asks this question doesn't mean mean that this happens to everybody. Obivously this happened because Christ was sending his Spirit to those who were believers at that time. Because although they were believers Christ had not yet sent His Spirit. From the Day of Pentecost thats when Christ began to send His Spirit to validate His promise to send the Spirit. As the apostles were teaching, Christ was validating thier message by sending His Spirit to Greek believers as well as Jews so that it could be manifested that they are true apostles and that Greeks could be saved. He was stamping His approval on the newly founded true Church.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Acts 10:45
And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Why would Finney lie of a baptism if everyone gets baptized and filled by the Holy Spirit at conversion as you say? Why would Ravenhill and Wilkerson and Keith Green and Moody and Finney and Cymbala and others lie about a Spirit Baptism that is separate from the conversion experience?

we all have to be careful when you watch edited pieces of information through any media without knowing the whole.

As I was fast-forwarding through the video, Noah came to mind. Noah was caught on the “video-camera” of someone’s mind –his son Ham who thought nothing of blabbing on his dad’s disgraceful condition. God was not pleased with Noah……. oops… I mean, with Ham (!!!) – and even cursed Ham and his descendents as a result.

Yet, we think nothing today of exposing the shameful condition of others – displaying their “nakedness” for the world to see. It even feels righteous, even expected as part of the of “revival burden” package, or discernment “ministry”.

I feel that this pastor on the video acted shamefully by drawing the public eye to these shameful behaviors. What would he think of a camera catching him eating a big piece of cake while in his underwear, and then exposing it to the world (shame, shame on a Christian leader who is a glutton)

Remember, some of these people on these clips may be relatives of viewers and may be devastated, or these people may have repented long ago.

The flesh relishes in the exposure of sin. Let’s face it, we still practise the ancient ritual of tarring and feathering – using shame as a means of teaching the “criminal” a lesson or two. This video is just one example of what the Pharisees did with the woman caught in adultery. The dragged her through the streets and planted her on the “platform” where Jesus was teaching a crowd. Imagine: her relatives, her kids, her peers all watching. Her reputation would have been marred for life, even thought THAT DAY she very likely repented.

Where are our Shem’s and our Japheth’s? Those who cover shame instead of going st’ st’ st’ st’ and then talking about it.

I fear that, even while seeking revival we may actually be inviting a curse on ourselves if we do not exercise careful discernment in how we post about other people’s sins.

Why is it that threads that talk about contriversial people (sinners) are far more popular than threads that expose our own sins, and exhort us to godliness?

It is so easy to get distracted from the pursuit of godliness. We end up with a famine on threads that edify, and encourage the lost, despondent, and lonely – those who might drop in looking for a refreshing drink of water - the very ones whom God is so eager to touch through us.

Let us not set up temptations. Do we really want people to have their minds defiled with such images and comments? Let's face it, once you hear or see something, it's hard to erase.

“Whatever is true…. noble… right…. pure… lovely….. admirable…
If anything is excellent or praiseworthy – think about such things.” Phil. 4:8

I kindly ask you to keep an open mind by the power of the Spirit.

"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" If we follow your logic, based on your understanding of I Cor. 12:13 (which Paul wrote!) Why would he even need to ask this question? We are all baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit at conversion, this is true. But is there something else to "tarry" after?

Just because he asks this question doesn't mean mean that this happens to everybody. Obivously this happened because Christ was sending his Spirit to those who were believers at that time. Because although they were believers Christ had not yet sent His Spirit. From the Day of Pentecost thats when Christ began to send His Spirit to validate His promise to send the Spirit. As the apostles were teaching, Christ was validating thier message by sending His Spirit to Greek believers as well as Jews so that it could be manifested that they are true apostles and that Greeks could be saved. He was stamping His approval on the newly founded true Church.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Acts 10:45
And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Why would Finney lie of a baptism if everyone gets baptized and filled by the Holy Spirit at conversion as you say? Why would Ravenhill and Wilkerson and Keith Green and Moody and Finney and Cymbala and others lie about a Spirit Baptism that is separate from the conversion experience?

John 21:16
He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Tend My sheep.”

God bless you, sister. Yes, let's keep an open mind in God's Spirit. I am prepared not to argue, but to discuss in a spirit of meekness and respect for a dear fellow servant of our Lord Jesus Christ. And now, let us begin:

Obivously this happened because Christ was sending his Spirit to those who were believers at that time. Because although they were believers Christ had not yet sent His Spirit.

Sister, how have you concluded this? I thought the Spirit was poured out in its entirety on the day of Pentecost. Immediately after Peter preached, 3,000 were converted. Was the Holy Spirit later hampered in by geographic location and/or ethnicity? If so, when and why did God suddenly stop demonstrating and stamping approval on his church? You said that just because Paul asked the question to the Ephesian believers that it doesn't mean it pertains to everybody. Again, how have you concluded this? Experientially? It appears to me that your reasoning is a convenient disregarding of this entire occurence so it can fit nicely into a biased theological framework. I would think that we would need this demonstration power especially today for these perilous times in which we live! Just because J. Vernon McGee and Dr. David Jeremiah and RC Sproul and John MacArthur and Hank Hanagraaf (sp?) say one thing, it certainly doesn't make it valid. Before Luther, the doctrine of justification lay buried. Before Wesley, the doctrine of sanctification lay buried. The men you propose as great Bible scholars are, in fact, awesome men of God, but we must remember that even the great Charles Spurgeon spoke from his own own theological bias - illuminated by the Holy Ghost - and interpreted the scriptures as such.

So, why and when did God stop stamping approval upon certain believers as according to scripture? Where in scripture does it say he would stop the signs before that which is perfect had come?

Honestly, I believe it’s a lack of scripture knowledge.

That's a presumptuous statement, friend! John Wesley spoke of (and experienced) the Spirit Baptism. And men like John MacArthur and RC Sproul are also [i]modern[/i] preachers - and much more modern than Ravenhill and Finney and Moody! Are you prepared to say that Moody and Torrey and Ravenhill and Wesley were blind and deceived and experienced an unbiblical doctrine (who were not Pentecostals or Wesleyans) and that only the theologians of your Calvinistic ilk are right and have the proper interpretation? Most of the preachers you presented to me in your defense were Calvinists. I respect them all, and though I believe they were wrong on some things, I wouldn't say that only the Arminian theologians have truth and all others are in error.

Were they lying?

No, they couldn't lie about something they had never experienced - unles they knew they received it and still claimed they hadn't. The burden of proof is on you! We claimed to have experienced it; yet you say that we haven't. You claim that it's impossible, unscriptural, that it's a heretical lie. But I say that a person can be willfully blind to a truth that their denominational, cessationist taboos forbid them from seeking. It's always more safe to just go with the flow. 8-)

God bless you,

Brother Paul

wow! way too much to take in without a broken heart driving me to prayer. God is faithful.
these men represent the pentecostal church in america in our day...thats sad. (i say that without judging these individuals)

but they and there actions and deciet should not be our measure by which we determine truth or doctrine. we can't denounce our belief in spiritual gifts becuse of the distorted view of a handful of ministers...(in comparison to the many believers past and present they represent a small number) we must seek God in prayer and stay true to the Word of God.
paul; said follow me as i follow Christ...in order to know if he was following Christ one must know christ for himself

Kristy, here is George Fox's account of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Fox was not a Pentecostal or charismaniac (for there is a difference), and he didn't speak in tongues, but after his Spirit Baptism, his ministry quaked the world for Jesus Christ:

"Soon after George Fox began to preach, he had a remarkable spiritual experience that lasted fourteen days. A certain Mr. Brown, while on his death bed prophesied many great things concerning Fox. "When this man was buried," says Fox, "a great work of the Lord fell on me." During this mighty baptism of the Spirit, Fox received a remarkable gift of discernment. "He seemed to be able to read the character of men by looking at them." Miraculous healings also accompanied his ministry. Through prayer and the laying on of hands, the sick were often healed and devils were cast out to the glory of Christ. When George Fox preached men would shake and tremble. "The name Quaker was given to Fox and his followers because of the quaking of the men who came to scoff but stayed to pray." This remarkable power seemed to accompany the preaching of Fox wherever he went."

As you can see, something happened in Fox's life that changed the course of his ministry. You find a similar pattern recorded in the ministries of men like Wesley, Finney, Moody, Wigglesworth, Torrey after experiencing this filling. And, like sister Joy (Roniya) pointed out, it just isn't for the "noncalvinists". There is a dynamic Holy Spirit filling that is very real, and still very available today for those after conversion, for those whom God delights to give the "gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 4:38) that hunger and thirst and absolutely surrender their lives on the altar of God for it.

Brother Paul

, the Church divided and devouring itself from within .

When Jesus referred to the Pharisees as a broad of vipers, this is essentially what he was saying. Apparently back then the people had a common belief that baby snakes came into the world by eating their way out of their mother. Well, that’s not true, but the Pharisees wouldn’t have known that. Jesus was essentially telling them that they devoured their way into existence - at the expense of others, including their heavenly parent.

We are no different. We devour our way into our own “life”. We devour other people, other religious groups in order to set ourselves up as the RIGHT ones. We pick at petty things – like the use of a imature language, dress, religous habits... but fail to nurture life. We simply devour as we go along.

isn’t Christianity fun?

This “second blessing” is a very new doctrine and I can say it’s not historical or biblical.

This is a historically inaccurate comment. In a VERY brief college paper I wrote on the "Initial Evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit," I briefly survey the history of the doctrine throughout church history. Keep in mind the focus of my paper was on what figures in church history regarded as the "initial evidence" of the baptism of the Spirit. Keep in mind, this is not a survey of people who taught the idea or experienced some sort of "second blessing" after that of conversion, for which much more could be added, e.g. John Wesley.

My sources are primarily that of Gary B. McGee, who documents this much more fully in his book "Initial Evidence: Historical and Biblical Perspectives on the Pentecostal Doctrine of Spirit Baptism," along with primary sources:

In the early Western Church, nobody insisted upon some dramatic physical manifestation of the Spirit when a believer was baptized in the Holy Spirit. Ancient Christian writers simply were not overly concerned with external evidence accompanying the baptism of the Holy Spirit. While ancient writers did describe the effects of the Spirit in the Christian life, they did not so much think of these as proofs of the Spirit baptism. The early Church fathers seemed more concerned about the piety of believers who claimed to be baptized in the Spirit as such proof.
\t
As time went by, there was still the occasional discussion as to knowing what was the proof that a believer had been baptized in the Holy Spirit. A medieval monk by the name of Symeon (949-1022) believed that the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit was “the gift of tears.” Perhaps the most interesting proof ever suggested for Spirit baptism was offered by Prokhor Moshnin (a.k.a. “The Seraphim of Sarov”; 1759-1833) of the Russian Orthodox Church. Moshnin taught that the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit was a transfiguration experience, where a believer was transformed into divine light.
\t
Perhaps the first person historically to formulate a Pentecostal-like doctrine was Scottish-Presbyterian pastor, Edward Irving (1792-1834). Irving called tongues the “sign” or “gift” that accompanied the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It should be noted that he never used the term “initial evidence.” Irving believed that tongues are the “root and stem of [all the gifts], out of which they all grow, and by which they are all nourished.” Irving thought of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a sort of gateway by which a believer when they had passed through it could operate in the other gifts of the Holy Spirit.
\t
It really was not until Charles Parham came on the scene that Christians increasingly began to believe that the ability to speak in tongues was the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is interesting to note that William J. Seymour, founding pastor of the famous Azusa Street Mission, and also one of Parham’s students, originally believed that tongues was the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but later came to denounce this doctrine. Seymour would eventually argue that God should be free to be God, and can “choose whatever manifestations God might wish, including tongues” as evidence of Spirit baptism. It is presently uncertain who first coined the term “initial evidence,” though the earliest known reference to it, according to Gary McGee, is found in the Assemblies of God “Statement of Fundamental Truths” in 1916.

When one actually studies church history, the idea of some sort of second blessing after conversion is far from a novel idea. It's simply not an idea that has been prevelent in Lutheran/Reformed circles. But, simply because it has not been accepted in such circles doesn't mean it's been without acceptance in others. And remember, the Lutheran/Reformed perspectives are a very SMALL scope of the history of the Church. Also remember that Luther and Calvin were charged with teaching novel interpretations of Scripture that were without historical basis, and thus false. And for the most part, such charges were true, but, not entirely so.

We ought to broaden our horizon's a little bit. Of course, one ought not to expect to see much teaching from John MacAuthur and company regarding such doctrines. But remember in doing such, that some of them invent doctrines.

For example, it is a novel doctrine that the gifts, signs and wonders, of the Holy Spirit ceased after the first generation of believers. Such was a doctrine invented by men in recent centuries to explain why they didn't see the power of Spirit demonstrated in their own ministries. Granted, the church was always aware of a decline in the gifts of the Spirit, but, a cessation of them outright is without historical basis.

For those of you who might say that the gifts of the Spirit ceased with the apostles or first generation of believers, I must humble state that you simply do not understand Scripturally the age in which we live. This is very simple. The apostle Peter quoted the prophet Joel in reference to the "last days" on the day of Pentecost. We as the church have been in the last days for 2,000 years now, and this is the description that the prophet Joel gives of this age:

Joel 2
28
“It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.
29\t
“Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30\t
“I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31
“The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
32\t
“And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the LORD has said,
Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

This is how the prophet Joel describes our times. It's a time of the Spirit. A time of prophecies, dreams, visions. A time of judgement, of blood, of fire, of smoke. A time of salvation.

This verse you used out of context is refering to the millenium!!!

Joel 2 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

Joel 2
The Day of the LORD

1 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble;
For the day of the LORD is coming,
For it is at hand:
2 A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,
Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.
A people come, great and strong,
The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them,
Even for many successive generations.
3 A fire devours before them,
And behind them a flame burns;
The land is like the Garden of Eden before them,
And behind them a desolate wilderness;
Surely nothing shall escape them.
4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses;
And like swift steeds, so they run.
5 With a noise like chariots
Over mountaintops they leap,
Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble,
Like a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before them the people writhe in pain;
All faces are drained of color.
7 They run like mighty men,
They climb the wall like men of war;
Every one marches in formation,
And they do not break ranks.
8 They do not push one another;
Every one marches in his own column.
Though they lunge between the weapons,
They are not cut down.
9 They run to and fro in the city,
They run on the wall;
They climb into the houses,
They enter at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth quakes before them,
The heavens tremble;
The sun and moon grow dark,
And the stars diminish their brightness.
11 The LORD gives voice before His army,
For His camp is very great;
For strong is the One who executes His word.
For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;
Who can endure it?

A Call to Repentance

12 “ Now, therefore,” says the LORD,

“ Turn to Me with all your heart,
With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning.”
13 So rend your heart, and not your garments;
Return to the LORD your God,
For He is gracious and merciful,
Slow to anger, and of great kindness;
And He relents from doing harm.
14 Who knows if He will turn and relent,
And leave a blessing behind Him—
A grain offering and a drink offering
For the LORD your God?
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
Consecrate a fast,
Call a sacred assembly;
16 Gather the people,
Sanctify the congregation,
Assemble the elders,
Gather the children and nursing babes;
Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber,
And the bride from her dressing room.
17 Let the priests, who minister to the LORD,
Weep between the porch and the altar;
Let them say, “Spare Your people, O LORD,
And do not give Your heritage to reproach,
That the nations should rule over them.
Why should they say among the peoples,

‘ Where is their God?’”

The Land Refreshed

18 Then the LORD will be zealous for His land,
And pity His people.
19 The LORD will answer and say to His people,

“ Behold, I will send you grain and new wine and oil,
And you will be satisfied by them;
I will no longer make you a reproach among the nations.
20 “ But I will remove far from you the northern army,
And will drive him away into a barren and desolate land,
With his face toward the eastern sea
And his back toward the western sea;
His stench will come up,
And his foul odor will rise,
Because he has done monstrous things.”
21 Fear not, O land;
Be glad and rejoice,
For the LORD has done marvelous things!
22 Do not be afraid, you beasts of the field;
For the open pastures are springing up,
And the tree bears its fruit;
The fig tree and the vine yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, you children of Zion,
And rejoice in the LORD your God;
For He has given you the former rain faithfully,
And He will cause the rain to come down for you—
The former rain,
And the latter rain in the first month.
24 The threshing floors shall be full of wheat,
And the vats shall overflow with new wine and oil.
25 “ So I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten,
The crawling locust,
The consuming locust,
And the chewing locust,
My great army which I sent among you.
26 You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied,
And praise the name of the LORD your God,
Who has dealt wondrously with you;
And My people shall never be put to shame.
27 Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel:
I am the LORD your God
And there is no other.
My people shall never be put to shame.

God’s Spirit Poured Out

28 “ And it shall come to pass afterward (after the day of the LORD)
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30 “ And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

This verse you used out of context is refering to the millenium!!!

In Acts 2 the apostle Peter mentions nothing of the millenium in regard to Joel 2:28-32. You can try to say this is about the millenium all you want, but, the apostle Peter applies this passage to the age we are currently living in.

“It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;

I do agree with the Baptism on the Holy Spirit being a separate experience to give power, having experienced it myself also, however, this part of the scripture says "I will pour out my Spirit on ALL MANKIND". (Not just believers).

Is there anyone who has revelation on this please? Notwithstanding it is quoted in Acts at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon the believers as being meant for TODAY (the last 2000 years).

God Bless
Linda

God won't pour out his spirit on unbelievers.

by KingJimmy on 2006/11/25 12:36:

For those of you who might say that the gifts of the Spirit ceased with the apostles or first generation of believers, I must humble state that you simply do not understand Scripturally the age in which we live. This is very simple. The apostle Peter quoted the prophet Joel in reference to the "last days" on the day of Pentecost. We as the church have been in the last days for 2,000 years now, and this is the description that the prophet Joel gives of this age:

Joel 2
28
“It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.
29
“Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30
“I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31
“The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
32
“And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the LORD has said,
Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

This is how the prophet Joel describes our times. It's a time of the Spirit. A time of prophecies, dreams, visions. A time of judgement, of blood, of fire, of smoke. A time of salvation.

This is the original quote. My question was why does it say God will pour out His Spirit on ALL MANKIND if this is to be taken as at Pentecost? And happened to BELIEVERS only.

This is a genuine question, not an argument.

God Bless
Linda

Sister, how have you concluded this? (THIS = "Obviously this happened because Christ was sending his Spirit to those who were believers at that time. Because although they were believers Christ had not yet sent His Spirit.")

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

No, they couldn't lie about something they had never experienced - unless they knew they received it and still claimed they hadn't. The burden of proof is on you! We claimed to have experienced it; yet you say that we haven't. You claim that it's impossible, unscriptural, that it's a heretical lie. But I say that a person can be willfully blind to a truth that their denominational, cessationalist taboos forbid them from seeking. It's always more safe to just go with the flow.

It's not always safe to go with the flow!!

Matthew 7:13
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it."

My proof is from the scriptures. I've given many verses on here and I haven't heard any addressed. Now that I've presented proof, the burden of refute is on you.

This is very important considering the damage the charismatic movement has done to Christianity here in America (portrayed in the video). Its been bearing bad fruit! "You will know them by their fruits". Anyways, its non-essential. You can be a Christian be mingled with a bit of non-sense as long as you don’t deny the essentials!

Act 2:17 -

It shall come to pass in the last days. The phrase "Last days" was used by the Jews to denote the last dispensation, that of Christ. See Isa_2:2.

I will pour out of my Spirit. A figurative expression to indicate abundant gifts of the Spirit.

On all flesh. On all races, not on the Jews alone.

Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy. "To prophesy" in the New Testament means to communicate religious truth by divine authority, as well as to foretell the future. The prophecy was fulfilled in the inspired speaking on Pentecost and afterwards, as well as by the daughters of Philip (Act_21:9). It will be seen that both sexes are included.

See visions . . . dream dreams. Such visions as that of Peter at Joppa. Such dreams as that of Paul at Troas, where he saw the Macedonian asking him to "Come and help us."

By the way this verse doesn't support the idea of us still being able to do these things.

It's not always safe to go with the flow!!

This was actually for you, going with [i]flow[/i] of cessationalist thinking. It's safe not to rock the boat. You can get disfellowshipped for going against the flow of your established theology. I know from experience, speaking with Spirit-filled Baptists who were run out of their churches for worshipping in the Spirit, lifting their hands during praise, believing the gifts were still in operation. It's much safer, in this respect, to just go with the flow and not rock the boat.

Again, there is a difference between Charismatics and Pentecostals. I don't know anyone who would endorse what is seen on these videos, and I am a Pentecostal, and fellowship with other Pentecostals. It's unwise to generalize all Pentecostals as such. I can turn it around on you and ask why is that most Calvinists I know defend drinking wine and secular music and dancing and all the while conveniently believing in OSAS. But I know this is untrue. I know a dear brother who is very Calvinistic in his thinking yet walks in Christ's purity and holiness.

So I ask you: How much do you really know about Pentecostals? I think you are making assumptions from seeing the notorious stuff depicted on TV. The money, the crusades, and the vials of anointed oil from Israel that are available for a love offering of $100.00 or more. Sick garbage. A false gospel, wolves in sheep's clothing, and I'll be the first to admit it. These men are charlatans, not true representitives of the Spirit-filled life. You want an ideal representation of a Spirit-filled Pentecostal? Study the life of John G. Lake and Smith Wigglesworth. Sister, we have given you plenty verses showing why we believe what we believe, yet you will not refute them. I already interpreted that one verse (which you believed nullified the Pentecostal persepctive of the Spirit baptism after conversion), and showed you that instead the verse, I believed, pertained to conversion. Why then are you continuing to say that nobody has addressed the verses you have given?

God bless you! In anycase, I do love you, and am throughly enjoying our discussion. Praise the Lord that none of what we are discussing pertains to salvation (unless there are some UPCers reading this). But that's a whole different topic!

Brother Paul

It's unwise to generalize all Pentecostals as such.

How much do you really know about Pentecostals? I think you are making assumptions from seeing the notorious stuff depicted on TV. The money, the crusades, and the vials of anointed oil from Israel that are available for a love offering of $100.00. or more. These men are charlatans, not true representitives of Spirit-filled, Pentecostal believers.

Why are you continuing to say that nobody has refuted the verses you have given us?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Acts 10:45
And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

If you believe otherwise then YOU MUST account for this CLEAR verse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xCwmw8tf7k

Okay, here we go again :-)

1 Corinthians 12:13

I see this pertaining to conversion. Baptized into ONE Body by ONE Spirit, through ONE Baptism. I've already addressed this.

I really don't see the point in the other verse references. What are you trying to prove? How do they support cessationalism? Can you provide some notes beneath the verses?

I don't think I'm being arrogant. If I've come off this way, I truly apologize. It seems, however, that you are bent on aggressively propogating your cessationalist theology and challenging anything even remotely Spirit-filled or Pentecostal in these forums. Granted, you've had some bad experiences with a charismatic church (who hasn't!), but you have publically posted that the second blessing is a false, unbiblical doctrine. Actually, I think that this is pretty arrogant! Do you know more than Wesley, Finney, Moody, Torrey, Fox, Ravenhill, Wigglesworth, Lake, Wilkerson, Cymbala? Were these mighty titans of God deluded into seeking a false experience, and after experiencing it and changing the world, still wrong and misled, though scripture more than supported that which they had experienced?

But I won't hold you against this! :-)

Prove your point; don't just post miscellaneous scripture refering to signs and wonders and say "See! There's no such thing as a Spirit Baptism after conversion! You can't refute it!"

Refute what? If anything, these scriptures will be to the Spirit-filled believer's advantage unless you can PROVE by the same scripture that they have stopped. We are still waiting for you to do this. The burden of proof is on you.

In other words: You're going to have to do better, sister.

Brother Paul

I fellowship with pentecostals as well AS LONG AS they do not trust in thier experiences above scripture!!

This is an absurd statement. It makes no sense at all. How can you fellowship with Pentecostals according to your stipulations?

"if they do not trust in their experiences above scripture"

If this is your guideline, it makes no sense at all, for a Pentecostal is one who believes and has been baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. And this is something, admittedly, that your theology refuses to acknowledge. How can you fellowship with Pentecostals by your own logic? You must only fellowship with non-Spirit-baptized Pentecostals, which are, by definition, not literal Pentecostals or have a confession accurate to the Pentecostal experience. Again (sorry), it really makes me wonder:

Do you understand what a Pentecostal is?

Brother Paul

How can you fellowship with Pentecostals by your own logic? You must only fellowship with non-Spirit-baptized Pentecostals, which are, by definition, not literal Pentecostals or have a confession accurate to the Pentecostal experience.

Because Christians can fellowship even if they have small differences in non-essential doctrines. "Sola-Scriptura" is where I draw the line with charismatics. A calvinist and an Arminiam can still fellowship although they have differences in docrtine. As long as people have SALVATION in common then they can fellowship.

I don't think that somebody who doesn't submit the scripture's clear teachings on essentials is saved.

I have to go but tomorrow I will explain the verses I'd like refutation from you on.

By the way there is no such thing as a non-spirit-baptized Christian. I'll elaborate tomo.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - I see this pertaining to conversion. Baptized into ONE Body by ONE Spirit, through ONE Baptism. I've already addressed this.

by GraceAlone on 2006/11/26 17:51:08
Sister, how have you concluded this? (THIS = "Obviously this happened because Christ was sending his Spirit to those who were believers at that time. Because although they were believers Christ had not yet sent His Spirit.")

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

Sister, I have not concluded this, Peter stated it quoting the prophet Joel (Acts 2v6), and you have just confirmed it.

:-? Linda

by GraceAlone on 2006/11/26 17:59:01Act 2:17 -

It shall come to pass in the last days. The phrase "Last days" was used by the Jews to denote the last dispensation, that of Christ. See Isa_2:2.

I will pour out of my Spirit. A figurative expression to indicate abundant gifts of the Spirit.

On all flesh. On all races, not on the Jews alone.

Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy. "To prophesy" in the New Testament means to communicate religious truth by divine authority, as well as to foretell the future. The prophecy was fulfilled in the inspired speaking on Pentecost and afterwards, as well as by the daughters of Philip (Act_21:9). It will be seen that both sexes are included.

See visions . . . dream dreams. Such visions as that of Peter at Joppa. Such dreams as that of Paul at Troas, where he saw the Macedonian asking him to "Come and help us."

By the way this verse doesn't support the idea of us still being able to do these things.

Sister GraceAlone, I'd like to ask you why you believe these things stopped. Thanks.

Linda :-(

see visions . . . dream dreams. Such visions as that of Peter at Joppa. Such dreams as that of Paul at Troas, where he saw the Macedonian asking him to "Come and help us."

By the way this verse doesn't support the idea of us still being able to do these things.

and yet…
God speaks to me in dreams and visions, inner voice, etc. This was largely the way he brought me out of my faulty sense of salvation into true salvation. He used dreams to reveal my sinful heart. He used dreams/visions to reveal his work in my life, in my church, THE church, etc to offer guidance, enlightenment. He used dreams to comfort me when I was about to sink under. Many dreams came true, and many are yet to be fulfilled. I record them in a journal.

I think God used them (mine or other’s) in my life because I had been far too dependent on my own intellect, and on the voice of man. I needed to get passed my human barrier – from living my “Christian” life in the natural to living it in the Spirit.

One day (a Tuesday) God revealed in a dream that I would not be in church on Sunday. I could tell (from experience) that this one was indeed from God, and not from pizza. So I did a lot of guessing, expecting to get a call to fill in at another church (as itinerant musician or something) But no call came. I got quite annoyed with God for “bugging” me so much, and “causing” me to have to waste mental time guessing. All week I was angry with God. I like to feel in contol.

Sunday morning came and I drove to church, most annoyed with God “for confusing me”. I prayed in the pastor’s office as usual. Then at 11:00 (service time) I suddenly felt a need to phone home, and check on my ill son (who has diabetes). I thank God for that because it likely saved his life. He was in serious condition and needed me home immediately. I never did attend the church service that day.

God was right, after all. As I was leaving the parking lot he said, “See! You can trust me.” I wept - deeply humbled. I needed to simply trust that he knows what he is doing. He WANTS to speak to me, and he wants me to trust him.

God uses revelatory means, or whatever means HE chooses to make his word come alive for us – never to substitute for his word, but to reinforce it in our calloused and resistant hearts.

All that to say that when God does speak to us in dreams, visions, or whatever, we must trust him. If we fail to listen when he speaks, we are in danger of becoming rebellious, and setting ourselves on our own path of Christian living.

Of course Satan can use the same media God uses to draw countless unsurrendered people in his direction. And there are many who get a thrill of manifestations, and use them as a substitute for God and his word.

By the way Satan is a master at using the Word to his own ends (bibliolatry), but that would never be a reason to caution against it.

It all depends on the heart condition.

“God’s sheep follow him because they KNOW his voice.” Jn 10

Right now God is using dreams to draw hundreds to salvation – esp in Muslim countries.
I know of a case where he prepared a pagan village chief in South America of a coming “white man” who would bring good news. Sure enough….. God prepared the heart ahead of time.

Sister,

Thank you for sharing your experience with dreams and visions. I can count mine on one hand, they came when I was new in Christ. Once I received a vision of myself sitting in a church meeting and being called up in front of everybody to speak. I always had a tremendous fear of public speaking and once tried a course to overcome this, but the first time I was called up, I froze in front of everyone. People were calling out 'just say one word!', but I couldn't. I was literally frozen on the spot. It was so embarassing.

I put the vision to one side, as I couldn't imagine it. Later on I received the baptism of the Spirit and found I had a boldness and a confidence that I had never known before. One day, my pastor, during the church meeting, said there were people there who had something to thank God for, and to come forward before the people and speak of it. There was only a slight hesitation, but I knew God wanted me to go forth, so out of my seat I went and stood before everyone with not one bit of fear in me. A great boldness and a confidence was with me now as I witnessed and spoke about coming to know God as my Father. The words just toppled out of me. It was so wonderful to be able to testify. The vision I had had was the exact place where this happened, in the exact circumstances and in the exact part of the church that was shown to me in that vision.

I think God is so wonderful to come to us in this way and reveal Himself. It encouraged me so much :-)

God Bless
Linda

I think God is so wonderful to come to us in this way and reveal Himself. It encouraged me so much

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
Here it says that ALL CHRISTIANS have been made to drink of the SAME Spirit in the SAME baptism. Therefore Cessationalist and non-cessationalist alike, if they are saved they have been "baptized with the Spirit" if you will.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
THe apostles were confirmed with signs and wonders to approve thier teachings. Signs were used in this time to confirm the church.

Acts 10:45
And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
This is showing why they didn't recieve the indwelling of the Spirit imediately. It was to show jews and greeks that both could be saved and filled with the same Spirit.

Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”
I added this one to show that "toungues" at Pentecost were actual languages for the purpose of evangelism.

I don't think I'm being arrogant. If I've come off this way, I truly apologize. It seems, however, that you are bent on aggressively propogating your cessationalist theology and challenging anything even remotely Spirit-filled or Pentecostal in these forums.

Sister GraceAlone, I'd like to ask you why you believe these things stopped. Thanks.

It is interesting that histories of tongues movements and Pentecostal groups do not go back much before 1875. Therefore, it is admitted by all that this is an extremely modern movement. It has not been, it is not, nor can it be based on church history and a stream of witness to tongues down through the centuries. Indeed, from a few instances of it in New Testament times there has not been an occurrence of it since, unless allowance is made for the rather spotty and questionable practices among some medieval mystics. The voice of church history, when read in its total ramifications, would indicate that God has been guiding His people and that He has been teaching them His Word down through the centuries. The voice of history also is that God has majored on those things which are given priority in His own Word and not on those things which men claim by experiences, however hectic or calm. The voice of church history, therefore, is against the modern tongues movement and would stigmatize it as being an unscriptural and unhistorical phenomenon arising out of the experiences, tempers, moods, tensions, upheavals, upsettings, fears, frustrations, longings, desires, and emotional impulses so common in the last century.

For more on the history of tongues go [url=http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=40%7C%7C283]HERE.[/url]

MORE

While we confess God's sovereign freedom in continuing to work in miraculous ways, it is quite a different question whether God's Spirit continues to give the power of miracles to his people. Here the Bible gives some indication that some gifts were only of a temporary nature, given for the founding of Christ's church. Among those 'gifts' which were clearly limited to the foundational stage of the church we must first of all include those identified as apostles and prophets (Eph. 4:11). The apostles and prophets were called by Christ to lay the foundation for his church (Eph. 2:20, cf. Mt. 16:18), which is found in the inspired Scriptures, the Word of God (2 Tim. 3:16; Heb. 1:1,2; 1 Pet. 1:12; 2 Pet. 3:16). Once this foundation was laid there was no further need for the apostolic and prophetic offices. The call to apostleship, moreover, could only come to those who had personally witnessed the resurrected Christ (Jn. 15:27; Acts 1:8; 10:41).

It is true that some earlier theologians, including John Calvin, William Perkins and George Gillespie, suggest that God may yet send new apostles in extraordinary circumstances,30 but it would appear that they are thinking more in terms of the general apostolic function to spread the Gospel than the specific apostolic function to lay the foundation of the Church. This is clear in Calvin's handling of the matter. Calvin mentions the possibility of God occasionally raising up apostles in the context of the apostolic task to spread the Gospel into all the world.31 Here we must keep in mind that among the Reformers it was commonly believed that the Great Commission had been specifically given to the apostles. The concept of 'missionaries' other than the apostles had not yet taken hold in the Reformed tradition.

It is also reasonable to conclude that with the passing of the apostles those gifts which the Bible identifies as the marks of apostleship departed with them. These marks are listed as 'signs, wonders and miracles' (2 Cor 12:12; cf. Acts 14:3). In apostolic times the authority of the apostolic office was not only demonstrated in the miraculous works done by the apostles themselves, but also by the fact that they could confer the gift to do wondrous works to others through the laying on of hands (Acts 8:17; 19:6; cf. 1 Tim. 4:14). Such strong links between the office of apostleship and the more unusual gifts lend strong support to the conclusion of Benjamin Warfield, that 'the extraordinary gifts belonged to the extraordinary offices and showed themselves only in connection with its activities.'32

Yet there are some difficult questions associated with the weak cessationist position. The first is: which gifts are to be included among the extraordinary and miraculous gifts which have ceased? There is no consensus on the identity of the miraculous gifts. In the previous article we noted that some regarded the gift of prophecy as extraordinary, while others regarded it as a gift that can be found among preachers who excel in Bible interpretation and application.33 Those who give the first interpretation tend to list prophecy with the gifts that have ceased, while those who follow the second interpretation list it with the Spirit's permanent gifts to the church.

A second question concerns the time of the cessation of miraculous gifts. John Calvin, William Perkins and George Gillespie, who link the miraculous gifts with the earliest period of the Church's development, are open to the possibility of a re-occurrence of extraordinary offices and their gifts in extraordinary circumstances. For them the cessation of these gifts meant that they had ceased to function as an ordinary part of church life, not that they had ceased altogether. But Warfield's argument that these gifts were linked with the apostolic office and therefore ceased with the disappearance of this office is consistent with both history and Scripture. Perhaps the insights of both viewpoints can be combined in the recognition that the gift allowing some of God's people to do extraordinary works for God at their will has disappeared, but that God may still use human agents to do wondrous works in extraordinary circumstances.

To sum up, our discussion has shown that the word cessationism is indeed used with many different shades of meaning, and for this reason the word should not be used without careful definitions and qualifications. We rejected that view of cessationism that would deny the possibility of miracles today. At the same time we noted that there is a wide consensus in Reformed theology that the Spirit's miraculous gifts were not meant as permanent and abiding gifts to the church. If the term cessationism is to have any objective meaning it is probably to be sought in this consensus.

Read in [url=context]http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=40||411[/url]

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Dear GraceAlone,

God is a Person, whom we can have an intimate relationship with. The scriptures will also confirm our experience with Him. That you seem to be missing out on this is evident in the grinding and clashing of your replies. Did God reveal Himself to man before any scripture was written down? I feel that you are missing out. Your words are just that, with no Spirit of God on them.

In His Love
Linda

God is a Person, whom we can have an intimate relationship with. The scriptures will also confirm our experience with Him. That you seem to be missing out on this is evident in the grinding and clashing of your replies. Your words are just that, with no Spirit of God on them.

Ma'am this is the very reason the Charismatic movement has been chaos. You can't say that my words are false if you can't even provide any reason for that. You're telling me that I'm lost? I have an intimate relationship with God. You don't have to be a weird charismatic to have a relationship with God. I have had an amazing experience with God and it had nothing to do with a lack of understanding. It was called CONVERSION and is called SANCTIFICATION. You are not explaining yourself. Instead of attacking me without reason you should listen to reason. My posts have been for your edification... I want to help you see reason.

Also, you have no reason to say that. I'm giving you resources and you have given no answer to them. So far the scriptures are proving true.

Your emotions shouldn't override reason and scripture. I'll pray that your heart would be softened and you would not depend on externalism to go to heaven. If your experience with God has only been these dreams visions and tonguges then you haven't been converted.

Did God reveal Himself to man before any scripture was written down?

Heb 1:1-2
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Ephesians 3:5
which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

2 Peter 1:19
And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

Eph 2:20
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(Revelation is closed.)

If somebody doesn't speak in toungues they are not lost- they may even be more holy and godly in thier lives. 2. Supposedly getting the second blessing doesn't mean you are saved. This my friend is false assurance.

GraceAlone, who in these forums has ever argued these things? I totally agree with you! But this has nothing to do with the original discussion.

Let me ask you a few questions to get back on target:

1. What differentiates a Charismatic from a Pentecostal in your eyes?

2. Which scriptures (forget church history) show us that the Holy Spirit Baptism following repentance and conversion was only for the 120 in Acts 2, the Ephesians in Acts 19 and Cornelius' family in Acts 10?

According to your logic, the Pentecostal experience is false because it only dates back to 1875? You keep saying stuff like this. Your strongest argument seems to be that none of the "old" preachers preached it. Well, I showed you a few posts back that this is not true. I think what you really meant to say was that none of the historically famous (and mighty in God) Calvinist preachers preached it. But, see, Wesley spoke of it, and George Fox experienced it. These were two of the greatest men of God who ever walked the face of the earth. Charles Finney had it, and so did D.L. Moody. These, again, are two extraordinary men of God who shook entire nations for Jesus. How far back were you wanting to go? This is totally ridiculous. Do you know they said the same about Luther and his "new" doctrine of justification, and John Wesley with his "new" doctrine of sanctification? None of the old Anglicans preached it, so it must be false, and John Wesley was run out of churches and forced into the highways and byways. Praise the Lord! And so the same logic you are protesting with the second blessing, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Like justification and sanctification, Spirit Baptism is not a "new" doctrine, but, rather, it's an "old" doctrine rediscovered.

I really feel like you are making assumptions based on a combo of Calvinistic church history and personal opinions and what the preconceived theology of biased men have taught you from the pulpit. In this sense, you can make the scriptures support anything! But I go off literal scripture, the literal Pauline epistles, the real, prototype history of the rudimentary Christian church as deliniated in the Book of Acts and apply them in full for today. They all support my beliefs - and many others here on SI. Many of which are your own Calvinistic brothers and sisters, yet they can identify because they too have experienced this filling. God indeed transcends denominationalism and Calvin and the "way things are supposed to be" mindset that hampers the liberal, convicting moving of God's Spirit in too many our congregations. Do you admire Keith Daniel? I recently saw brother Daniel preach, and Keith spoke of being filled with the Spirit through complete surrender! You can't just write off Wesley and Fox and Finney and Moody and Keith Daniel and Leonard Ravenhill. Hear what they say, and measure it against scripture, not John Calvin.

Ah, but there's one more thing! What do you say to someone who [i]has[/i] experienced what is being said? Do you tell them they have been deceived, because according to the church history of Matthew Henry and the preaching of MacArthur, [i]Jesus doesn't baptize with fire anymore?[/i] Or worse yet - you've received all there is at conversion. Nothing more to look for, hunger for, ask God for? No gifts? No apostolic authority for ministry?

What a sad, deplorable mindset to get into. No wonder so many of us are despondent and fruitless and full of empty theology, having a form of God [i]but denying his power.[/i]

Brother Paul

Dear GraceAlone,

Instead of attacking me without reason you should listen to reason.

My sincere apology for attacking you. Sometimes it is difficult to see the heart in a person when it is all done in writing. I'm sorry I did not reply to your posting, but it was very long and I have not the time. Please be assured I do not question your salvation, that is not for me to say. Having said this, I do believe my experiences with God are real, If I list scripture proof, it would be a repeat of what has already been argued on this thread.

May you live and love for His Glory.

Linda

Jesus doesn't baptize with fire anymore?

Thanks for staying open minded. In one of my last posts I posted the points I was trying to make with those verses I was writing! Here they are again...

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
Here it says that ALL CHRISTIANS have been made to drink of the SAME Spirit in the SAME baptism. Therefore Cessationalist and non-cessationalist alike, if they are saved they have been "baptized with the Spirit" if you will.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
THe apostles were confirmed with signs and wonders to approve thier teachings. Signs were used in this time to confirm the church.

Acts 10:45
And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
This is showing why they didn't recieve the indwelling of the Spirit imediately. It was to show jews and greeks that both could be saved and filled with the same Spirit.

Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”
I added this one to show that "toungues" at Pentecost were actual languages for the purpose of evangelism.

God Bless!

The baptism of fire is the jugdement of Christ.

I disagree, and so does Matthew Henry:

"They who are baptized with the Holy Ghost are baptized as with fire; the seven spirits of God appear as seven lamps of fire (Rev.4:5). Is fire enlightening? So the Spirit is a Spirit of illumination. Is fire warming? And do their hearts not [i]burn[/i] within them? Is it consuming? And does not the Spirit of judgment - as a Spirit of burning - consume the dross of their corrputions? Does fire make all that it seizes like itself? And does it move upwards? So does the Spirit make the soul holy like itself, and its tendency is heaven-ward. Christ says [i]I am come to send fire,[/i] (Luke 12:49)."

- Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, Vol.5, page 21.

There are clearly two seperate baptisms for believers. The baptism of repentence. and the baptism in the holy spirit.

The gifts, signs and wonders of the body of christ were never stopped. I also want to point out that the apostles WERE NOT the only disciples in that specific time frame to work miracles or use the gifts. Like the man who had 3 daughters that were prophetesses.

And please explain to me why paul would write explanations, directions for use, and encouragement to use, the gifts of the spirit, if the gifts of the spirit were not for anybody but them.

Also, in Isaiah 53:5

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

there is definite proof that jesus died for more than just MY sins. But he also died that i might be HEALED. that i wouldn't bear SHAME.
Jesus died for more than just my sins, he also died for me to be healed. body, soul, and spirit.

If you think i will believe for even one second that jesus would only heal those in that day, but not those who need healing today, then you are wrong. The gifts of God are a blessing for the church today. Jesus cares if i need something. and he has set up men and women in the church, with the gifts of the spirit, to minster those gifts to anybody who believes.

How can you claim to know jesus, but deny his work. You persecute the holy spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit of God would say to you, "Gracealone, Gracalone, Why persecutest thou me: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

Ac 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
Ac 8:10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
Ac 8:11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Ac 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued * with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done (5740) .
Ac 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Ac 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Ac 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Ac 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Ac 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Here is a story that shows the baptism in the holy spirit as a separate work which occurs after salvation(salvation occurring when they believed). For clearly salvation is not distributed by the laying on of hands. So there is a second blessing, and its not just for the apostles. Does the church not need confirmation today? I say yes, and now more than ever.

I also want to make a second point about this story. Simon must have seen something to know that the believers received the holy spirit. What sign was it that could be witnessed by a third party person. Well going with the other baptisms of the spirit in the book of acts, I'm going to believe the outward evidence of tongues. This is how simon knew something had truly happened.

Gracealone, there is a lot of garbage out there that resembles and imitates the holy spirit, bringing a bad reputation to God. But let me tell you that The Comforter has come! and He is doing many wonderful works through the men and women of God in the Church today! And if you would only believe, only believe, you could experience God in a whole new way. How can you believe for the resurrection of the dead if you can't even believe for the baptism in the holy spirit and the gifts? Oh ye of little faith. Repent of your stubbornness and unbelief, and receive the fullness of what Jesus gave his life to purchase you. Life, and that more abundantly!

Do you want to know part of the reason the church is not where it should be today?

Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part *, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The individual parts aren't allowing God to use them to supply to the other members of the body. You are holding out on more that just yourself, but the whole church, when you don't use the gifts God has for you.

Now, gracealone, i may seem like a am trying to beat you up with my opinions but i'm not. I pray that whether you receive it or not you understand this, I don't mean offense against you as a sister in christ, and i don't want you to think i am attacking you. But i must say that i believe with all of my heart that the devil has planted this lie into the church to rob us of the gifts god has given us. I hate your doctrine. I view it as leaven in your faith. And i would hate to see anybody else lose what you have lost because of it. I would hate to see you not gain what you could gain by accepting the gift of the holy spirit from Jesus.

I think you guys would better understand the stance of cessationalism if you read about the proof for it.

Cessationism by Willem Berends

Professor of Systematic Theology and Ethics,
Reformed Theological College, 3220; Geelong, Australia.

Many authors discuss the question of prophecy and the closure of the canon from the standpoint of cessationism. When one studies these discussions it soon becomes clear that different people are using the term cessationism in very different ways. Some use the word in a wide sense to indicate the belief that all supernatural activity of an unusual or miraculous nature has ceased. Others use the word in a narrower sense to mean that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit among God's people have ceased. According to the latter view God himself still performs supernatural acts of a miraculous nature, but he no longer gives the power to do such works to his church. However, there is no agreement amongst those who hold this viewpoint as to when the cessation of miraculous gifts went into effect. For some the time of miraculous gifts coincided with the ministry of the apostles, for others gifts and miraculous activities were limited to the days of the early church, and a third position is that the practice of such gifts is reserved for extraordinary times and circumstances.

It follows that those who identify themselves, or maybe are identified by others, as non-cessationists cover a similar range of viewpoints. It is easy to see how people could be talking at cross purposes if they were using the word in question with such different connotations. To help clear up possible misunderstandings we will compare and evaluate the two broader uses of the word cessationism, and then discuss some of the implications of the nuances in connotation associated with the second use.

1. The view that all extraordinary works of God have ceased.

When we speak of the cessation of all extraordinary works, we mean to include such activities as miracles, healing, exorcism, prophecy, and tongues. Usually those who argue that such supernatural activities have ceased do so on the basis that these activities solely served the purpose of manifesting the authority of God's prophets and apostles. It is reasoned that once these extraordinary offices disappeared from the scene the need for miraculous activities disappeared with them.

This position, which I propose to call strong cessationism, is clearly spelled out by Augustus Strong in his definition of miracles:
A miracle is an event in nature, so extraordinary in itself and so coinciding with the prophecy or command of a religious teacher or leader, as fully to warrant the conviction, on the part of those who witness it, that God has wrought it with the design of certifying that this teacher or leader has been commissioned by him.1 A somewhat different definition of the purpose of a miracle is given later in the same work:
Miracles are the natural accompaniments and attestations of new communications from God...Miracles serve to draw attention to new truth, and cease when this truth has gained currency and foothold.2 If Strong's conflicting definitions leave us wondering whether the primary purpose of a miracle is to confirm a leader or to confirm the teachings of Scripture, Charles Hodge is less equivocal. He concludes his study on miracles with the observation:
The point which miracles are designed to prove is not so much the truth of the doctrines taught as the divine mission of the teacher.3
Since the definitions of Strong and Hodge speak of teachers and leaders in biblical times, the above definitions of miracles and their purpose clearly limit the possibility of miracles to the time when these teachers and leaders were still to be found.

The recognition that miracles serve to support the authority of God's servants marks a subtle change away from the position of the Reformers. For the Reformers the recognised purpose of miracles is not so much to support the divine mission of God's servants as to testify to the truth of their message. Thus John Calvin speaks of miracles as 'seals' added to the Word of God,4 and he warns that 'miracles must never be separated from the Word.'5 When coupled to the Word of God miracles serve 'to prepare us for faith, or to confirm us in faith.'6 But when miracles are divorced from God's Word they 'bring glory to creatures and not to God.'7 When miracles bring glory to creatures they conflict with the ultimate purpose of miracles, which is to display 'the glory of God.'8 We find a similar position in the works of William Perkins, who states the purpose of miracles is 'to confirm doctrine in the Apostolic churches.'9 Perkins is open to the possibility that God may still call men in an extraordinary manner to extraordinary offices today. But to the question whether the gift of miracles would still accompany such a calling today Perkins observes 'that their use is further to confirm doctrine even at this day, it cannot be proved.'10 The genuineness of a divine call, whether ordinary or extraordinary, is to be measured by whether the one called is true to the doctrines taught by those who had the authority of their teaching confirmed by miracles. Elsewhere he writes that the gift of miracles, in the sense of being able to command miracles to happen, is no longer present in the church.11 John Owen recognized that one of the purposes of miracles was to give authority to 'the ministers of the church.' But that this was not their only purpose follows from the fact that not all those who had the gift of faith to do miracles were officers in the church. Miracles therefore served a wider purpose in that they were 'exceeding useful, and necessary, unto the propagation of the gospel, the vindication of the truth, and the establishment of them that did believe.'12 In passing it is interesting to note that Owen regarded the faith which made miracles possible as a divine 'warranty' to the miracle received by immediate revelation. In other words, for Owen not only did miracles testify to revelation, but revelation testified to miracles.13 The nineteenth century change in emphasis from recognizing the purpose of miracles as confirming doctrine to confirming the ministry of those who brought the doctrine is important, because if the purpose of miracles was merely to confirm the ministry of those who first brought God's Word then there is no further need for miracles today. Here we may well ask why this recognition of the wider purpose of miracles to confirm the Word of God and its teaching was lost in this period of post-reformational developments in theology. The answer is probably to be found in the church's fight against the onslaughts of rationalism, which movement denied all possibility of miracles. Unable to defend miracles on rational and philosophical grounds, many apologetes sought instead to defend miracles on the basis of historical biblical testimony.14 Since such argumentation only proved that miracles happened in the past, it was attractive to define miracles as something that took place in the past, i.e. in terms of their confirmation of the authority of the prophets and apostles.

When we consider the biblical material it is clear that divine attestation to apostolic authority was indeed one of the purposes of miracles. Paul speaks of 'signs, wonders and miracles' as 'the things that mark an apostle (2 Cor 12:12; cf. Acts 2:43; 5:12: Rom. 15:19). But the Scriptures do not limit the purpose of miracles to this end. In Hebrews, for example, we find that the salvation offered in Christ was not only proclaimed by those who had heard Christ, but 'God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will (Heb. 2:2,3). The object of God's miraculous attestation here is not his servants, but the Gospel message.

Other miracles recorded in Scripture had different purposes. The miracle of creation did not bear witness to any human agent, but to God himself. The miracle of the flood was a sign of God's displeasure with sinful man. While some of the miracles during the exodus appear to have served as a testimony to Moses, the miracle of the exodus itself served to confirm God's claim on the people he had saved (Ex. 20:1). Many miracles may have served more than one purpose. Christ's healing of the man blind from birth no doubt served to confirm Christ's authority, but the stated purpose was 'that the works of God might be made manifest in him' (Jn. 9:3).

The wider purpose of miracles is recognised by many Reformed theologians. Geerhardus Vos lists the purposes of miracles as 'apologetic', 'soteric', and 'typical.'15 Louis Berkhof states that miracles 'are connected with the economy of redemption' and aim at 'a restoration of God's creative work.'16 Gordon Spijkman identifies miracles as 'confirmations of the invincible truth of God's Word', 'reaffirmations of the normativity of the good creation order', 'signs and wonders of God's intended shalom' and 'manifestations of the future kingdom.'17 To G.C. Berkouwer the meaning of a miracle lies in the fact that it 'summons faith, and calls to worship.'18

It is not surprising that those who recognize that the purpose of God's miracles is wider than attesting to the authority of God's servants are more open to the possibility of miracles continuing today. Calvin wrote that for 'the preservation of the Church, almost every day, is accompanied with many miracles.'19 More recently Berkouwer observed,
He who sees the miracles of Holy Scripture inseparably connected with the saving and redeeming activity of God knows that there can be no talk of a decrease or diminishing of the power of God unto salvation in this world...There is not a single datum in the New Testament which makes it certain that God, in a new period of strengthening and extending of the Church in heathendom, will not confirm his message with signs, in holy resistance to the demonic influences of the kingdom of darkness.20
Similarly Spijkman concludes his study on miracles with the observation,
There is no good biblical reason, therefore, to restrict God's wonder-working power to certain (past) times and (faraway) places - such as during the biblical era.21

2. The view that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit have ceased.

The position which we will call weak cessationism holds that it is not God who has ceased to do supernatural works, but God's people. There are in the main two variants to this position. The first maintains that miracles and such were limited to the church in its infancy, in order to help the spread of the Gospel in days of persecution. The second holds that miraculous gifts of the Spirit were given to confirm the authority of the leadership in the early church. This second view regards the miraculous spiritual gifts as unique to the apostles and those who received the gifts directly from them through the laying on of hands. The first position generally holds to the disappearance of miracles around the time of the establishment of the Christian faith under the first Christian emperor, Constantine. The second maintains that charismatic gifts disappeared from the church with the closing of the apostolic age.

The first position has a long pedigree. In the Reformed tradition Calvin favoured this position. He wrote:
Though Christ does not expressly state whether he intends this gift [of miracles] to be temporary, or to remain perpetually in the Church, yet it is more probable that miracles were promised only for a time, in order to give lustre to the gospel while it was new or in a state of obscurity.22
The second position has been ably defended by Benjamin Warfield, who argued that the special charismata were 'distinctively the authentication of the Apostles.'23 Warfield does not thereby mean to imply that all supernatural wondrous activity has ceased. When he questions the genuineness of the practice of faith healing he comments:
...the question is not: (1) whether God is an answerer of prayer; nor (2) whether, in answer to prayer, He heals the sick; nor (3) whether his action in healing the sick is a supernatural act; nor (4) whether the supernaturalness of the act may be so apparent as to demonstrate God's activity in it to all right thinking minds conversant with the facts. All this we believe.24
What Warfield does question is that God has promised healing in the manner claimed by so-called 'faith healers,' as an instant response to their healing ministry. The gift which enabled certain of God's people to heal miraculously in the name of Christ has ceased with the apostles.

Berkouwer also believes that the miraculous gifts had a special function in apostolic times, although he does not expressly limit these gifts to this period. He writes:
In the first, foundation-laying days for the Church after Pentecost, signs accompany the preaching of the gospel. Many signs and 'wonders' occur at the hands of the apostles (Acts 5:12). With these miracles, we are told, the Lord certifies His word (Acts 14:3).25
Some authors who speak in support of the cessation of gifts with the establishment of Christianity or the close of the apostolic age are nevertheless open to exceptions. Thus John Calvin and William Perkins seem to allow for God's temporary use of extraordinary offices, presumable with extraordinary gifts.26 Similarly George Gillespie argues for the reappearance of the prophetic gift in extraordinary times.27 In all three cases the authors strongly contest the claims of the 'enthusiasts' that the possession of the spiritual gifts belongs to the ordinary life of the Church.28

Where all weak cessationists are agreed is in their opposition to any suggestion of a regular continuation of the charismatic gifts or their reintroduction by way of a 'second blessing.' The gifts had a foundational function within the church. If some weak cessationists are open to the manifestation of such gifts in extraordinary circumstances the emphasis is always on the fact that this is by way of exception, and contrary to the norm.

Evaluation

Having distinguished between these two positions on cessationism it is fitting that we should seek to evaluate them. Does the Bible lead us to believe that miracles and other supernatural works are limited to certain eras of salvation history? Or is it only the gift of miracles and other special gifts of this nature that were limited in this way? Or are both positions wrong, and were the miraculous charismata meant to be a perpetual gift to the church?

Some authors have suggested that the biblical picture is one of clusters of miracles, centred around the times of Moses, the prophets, and the first and second coming of Christ.29 However, we should note that this clustering applies to recorded miracles, and it would be wrong to conclude from this that miracles did not occur during those periods about which the Bible is largely silent. The testimony of the prophet Jeremiah is interesting in this regard:
You performed miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt and have continued them to this day, both in Israel and among all mankind, and have gained the renown that is still yours. (Jer 32:20).
Note that Jeremiah does not limit God's working of miracles to a specific time or a specific people. The Hebrew words `ad hayôm hazzeh indicate that miracles took place right up to the time of the prophet's writing. We have hints of God's miraculous works in the time of the judges and the kings, not only within Israel, but also in the wider world. Thus non-Israelites, like Eliphaz, Job, and Nebuchadnezzar, praise God for his miracles (Job 5:9; 9:10; Dan. 4:2). While the Scriptures are in the main concerned with those miracles that were a part of the revealed salvation history, there appears to be no good reason to limit God's wondrous works to the specific periods or places dealt with in the Scriptures.

A number of authors have observed that the understanding of miracles which relegates them to the past is really not too different from Deism. Spijkman points out that the denial of miracles is often based on a deistic dualism which sees God and the world as independent entities. For Deists the only time God intervened in the affairs of the world was at creation, when God set in motion the laws that now govern the world. For strong cessationists the time of God's direct intervention in world affairs is limited to the period before the closure of the canon. Since that time God is seen as working only through the structures set in place. This is a far cry from the biblical picture of a living God, who not only upholds the world day by day through his sovereign power, but who also listens to the prayers of his people, and works all things for the good of those who love him (Rom. 8:28).

The biblical record gives us no right to put God in a box. Rather with the Westminster Confession we must confess that:
God, in His ordinary providence, maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure. (5, III)
Note the Confession's use of the present tense, there is no attempt to relegate acts of extraordinary providence, or miracles, to the past. God's continuing sovereign freedom is maintained.

While we confess God's sovereign freedom in continuing to work in miraculous ways, it is quite a different question whether God's Spirit continues to give the power of miracles to his people. Here the Bible gives some indication that some gifts were only of a temporary nature, given for the founding of Christ's church. Among those 'gifts' which were clearly limited to the foundational stage of the church we must first of all include those identified as apostles and prophets (Eph. 4:11). The apostles and prophets were called by Christ to lay the foundation for his church (Eph. 2:20, cf. Mt. 16:18), which is found in the inspired Scriptures, the Word of God (2 Tim. 3:16; Heb. 1:1,2; 1 Pet. 1:12; 2 Pet. 3:16). Once this foundation was laid there was no further need for the apostolic and prophetic offices. The call to apostleship, moreover, could only come to those who had personally witnessed the resurrected Christ (Jn. 15:27; Acts 1:8; 10:41).

It is true that some earlier theologians, including John Calvin, William Perkins and George Gillespie, suggest that God may yet send new apostles in extraordinary circumstances,30 but it would appear that they are thinking more in terms of the general apostolic function to spread the Gospel than the specific apostolic function to lay the foundation of the Church. This is clear in Calvin's handling of the matter. Calvin mentions the possibility of God occasionally raising up apostles in the context of the apostolic task to spread the Gospel into all the world.31 Here we must keep in mind that among the Reformers it was commonly believed that the Great Commission had been specifically given to the apostles. The concept of 'missionaries' other than the apostles had not yet taken hold in the Reformed tradition.

It is also reasonable to conclude that with the passing of the apostles those gifts which the Bible identifies as the marks of apostleship departed with them. These marks are listed as 'signs, wonders and miracles' (2 Cor 12:12; cf. Acts 14:3). In apostolic times the authority of the apostolic office was not only demonstrated in the miraculous works done by the apostles themselves, but also by the fact that they could confer the gift to do wondrous works to others through the laying on of hands (Acts 8:17; 19:6; cf. 1 Tim. 4:14). Such strong links between the office of apostleship and the more unusual gifts lend strong support to the conclusion of Benjamin Warfield, that 'the extraordinary gifts belonged to the extraordinary offices and showed themselves only in connection with its activities.'32

Yet there are some difficult questions associated with the weak cessationist position. The first is: which gifts are to be included among the extraordinary and miraculous gifts which have ceased? There is no consensus on the identity of the miraculous gifts. In the previous article we noted that some regarded the gift of prophecy as extraordinary, while others regarded it as a gift that can be found among preachers who excel in Bible interpretation and application.33 Those who give the first interpretation tend to list prophecy with the gifts that have ceased, while those who follow the second interpretation list it with the Spirit's permanent gifts to the church.

A second question concerns the time of the cessation of miraculous gifts. John Calvin, William Perkins and George Gillespie, who link the miraculous gifts with the earliest period of the Church's development, are open to the possibility of a re-occurrence of extraordinary offices and their gifts in extraordinary circumstances. For them the cessation of these gifts meant that they had ceased to function as an ordinary part of church life, not that they had ceased altogether. But Warfield's argument that these gifts were linked with the apostolic office and therefore ceased with the disappearance of this office is consistent with both history and Scripture. Perhaps the insights of both viewpoints can be combined in the recognition that the gift allowing some of God's people to do extraordinary works for God at their will has disappeared, but that God may still use human agents to do wondrous works in extraordinary circumstances.

To sum up, our discussion has shown that the word cessationism is indeed used with many different shades of meaning, and for this reason the word should not be used without careful definitions and qualifications. We rejected that view of cessationism that would deny the possibility of miracles today. At the same time we noted that there is a wide consensus in Reformed theology that the Spirit's miraculous gifts were not meant as permanent and abiding gifts to the church. If the term cessationism is to have any objective meaning it is probably to be sought in this consensus.

Gracealone,

1st post here but am always here reading the dialogue on various topics.

I have felt a particular need to respond here because I am somewhat wierd as far as church goes. I grew up baptist, have been a member of an Assembly of God church, am strongly supportive of many Mennonite doctrines but go to a Bible church that leans calvin, which I definately do not. All this said to say that I have been in many different settings in many different cities. Every time this subject comes up I study it intensely because of the division that is caused.

I do not believe that the gifts have ceased and I strongly believe that the best that cessationists do is solely state their beleifs in a doctrinal framework rather than back it up with scripture. Not once in the article that you posted did the author give scriptural proof of cessation. He solely goes back to the time tested and fatigued I might add, reasoning of the apostles were the foundation and they were given the gifts to help establish the church. These points are true but by no means allow a person to deduce that God must mean only to give it to the apostles.

I have noticed through these threads that you continually bring up calvin or other reformers of the pasts and what they believe. Who is Calvin? Who is Wesley? Who is Ravenhill? Was Calvin crucified for you? Or were you baptised in the name of Wesley? Don't get me wrong I admire many of these people, especially the wesleys and ravenhills but these are only men. I am of Christ. He cannot be wrong and these men can and were at times. You base your beliefs seemingly solely on what other men say. I have listened to McArthurs position on this matter and have been unconvinced as most was supposition. Nowhere in the bible does it even hint to cessation of gifts until that which is perfect has come. 1 Cor 13:12 says " For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know as I also am known." When Christ returns (that which is Perfect) there will be no need for gifts save love.

To believe in cessation is to totally disregard verses like 1Cor 14:1 "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifrs, but especially that you may prophesy." To believe in cessation you must explain why Paul takes the time to not only set forth the gifts in 1Cor 12, pause to expound on the greatest gift of love in 1Cor 13 and set in order how the gifts are to be used in 1Cor 14. Why would he trouble to do this if this was solely apostolic.

Standard answer to this question is to set the church in Corinth in order. Mostly true but look at 1 Cor 1:2, " to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints , with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord." i.e. to all who read this letter/epistle later on down through the ages. God in his infinite wisdom knows the excess taken by men and left the word of God to make straight the paths.

Looking back to the article, the typical responses are listed; probable, generally, some have suggested, etc. Nowhere is scripture used save to justify Apostleship which has nothing to do with gifts cessation.

Important to understand is that God gives the gifts through His Holy Spirit. The writer wants to point out that God can still do miracles, He just doesn't do it in his church today as a normal thing. Gifts were and are and never will be normal. Paul, Peter or any apostle never healed, prophesied or spoke in tongues of themselves. It was a supernatural gift.

A large problem then in Corinth as there is today is that the gifts are viewed as a badge of honor when really they are not given because of anything special about us. God still works in miracles, signs and wonders through people as he has through the ages. James 1:17 "Every good and perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning." There is no cessation with the Father. Only in man.

I could go on but will cease to think and chew some more.

Blessings,

sean

do not believe that the gifts have ceased and I strongly believe that the best that cessationists do is solely state their beleifs in a doctrinal framework rather than back it up with scripture.

The whole thing about talking about teachers like Wesley, Spurgeon and others... There is no division in Christ. Nobody holds to these guys above scripture. We can talk about peachers.

No, I actually did read the whole article and there are no verses that really support cessational thinking. The writer does a great job supporting apostleship, kudos on that. Actually stopping the gifts, no. It's interesting no reply on 1Cor14:1. No reply on 1Cor12-14. Not trying to pick a fight, I truly have always asked to prove it in scripture. You are right about talking about pastors and great men and women of God. I simply am saying sola sriptura. The opinions of men are just that, opinions. Bible is solid.

Grace and Peace,

Sean

What do you think about this part of the article?

It is also reasonable to conclude that with the passing of the apostles those gifts which the Bible identifies as the marks of apostleship departed with them. These marks are listed as 'signs, wonders and miracles' (2 Cor 12:12; cf. Acts 14:3). In apostolic times the authority of the apostolic office was not only demonstrated in the miraculous works done by the apostles themselves, but also by the fact that they could confer the gift to do wondrous works to others through the laying on of hands (Acts 8:17; 19:6; cf. 1 Tim. 4:14). Such strong links between the office of apostleship and the more unusual gifts lend strong support to the conclusion of Benjamin Warfield, that 'the extraordinary gifts belonged to the extraordinary offices and showed themselves only in connection with its activities.'

32 Yet there are some difficult questions associated with the weak cessationist position. The first is: which gifts are to be included among the extraordinary and miraculous gifts which have ceased? There is no consensus on the identity of the miraculous gifts. In the previous article we noted that some regarded the gift of prophecy as extraordinary, while others regarded it as a gift that can be found among preachers who excel in Bible interpretation and application.
33 Those who give the first interpretation tend to list prophecy with the gifts that have ceased, while those who follow the second interpretation list it with the Spirit's permanent gifts to the church.

A second question concerns the time of the cessation of miraculous gifts. John Calvin, William Perkins and George Gillespie, who link the miraculous gifts with the earliest period of the Church's development, are open to the possibility of a re-occurrence of extraordinary offices and their gifts in extraordinary circumstances. For them the cessation of these gifts meant that they had ceased to function as an ordinary part of church life, not that they had ceased altogether. But Warfield's argument that these gifts were linked with the apostolic office and therefore ceased with the disappearance of this office is consistent with both history and Scripture. Perhaps the insights of both viewpoints can be combined in the recognition that the gift allowing some of God's people to do extraordinary works for God at their will has disappeared, but that God may still use human agents to do wondrous works in extraordinary circumstances.

To sum up, our discussion has shown that the word cessationism is indeed used with many different shades of meaning, and for this reason the word should not be used without careful definitions and qualifications. We rejected that view of cessationism that would deny the possibility of miracles today. At the same time we noted that there is a wide consensus in Reformed theology that the Spirit's miraculous gifts were not meant as permanent and abiding gifts to the church. If the term cessationism is to have any objective meaning it is probably to be sought in this consensus.

it means peope who do not belive can not see or hear Him. a false prophet teaches about God but does not belive.

hi, as martin luther wrote in the fourth verse;the Spirit and the gifts are ours...a mighty fort....we still have the oportunity to minister in the gifts... i have seen the gifts in full operation many times and have many testimonies that are varified. i have a dear friend who had a surgery to remove a lung which was done and three ribs were also removed...the other lung started to fill up with t.b. and he went to a meeting to get prayed for ... he was prayed for and fell in the spirit and when got up he felt himself breath better ...when he got home he took off his shirt and the surgical scar was gone... he contacted dr.byars on monday who exrayed him and God removed the scar,put the ribs back in, gave him a new lung, and cleaned the other lung.this was investigated by the fbi and was proven true.that is my first example... this person who prayed for my friend was a. a. allen who died a drunk and was a drunk most of his life...God is the healer...not man.