Mormons, Catholics and Evangelicals... Unity??

The Mormon Church in Australia presented Catholic Cardinal Edward Cassidy with an award for his devotion to "ecumenical and inter-faith dialogue" ("Interfaith Honour for Cardinal Cassidy," Catholic Weekly, Oct. 1, 2006).

The Mormons are gradually working their way into the mainstream of the ecumenical movement. In November 2004 some evangelicals, (including [b]Ravi Zacharias[/b], CCM musician [b]Michael Card[/b], [b]Richard Mouw[/b] of Fuller Seminary, and [b]Craig Hazen[/b] of Biola University) joined hands with Mormons in Salt Lake City for an "Evening of Friendship." The event was co-sponsored by Standing Together Ministries, which was formed in 2001 by "evangelical" preacher [b]Greg Johnson[/b] to "build greater dialogue between evangelical Christians and Latter-day Saints."

In the Deseret Morning News, [b]Michael Card[/b] is quoted as saying that he “doesn't see Mormonism and evangelical Christianity as opposed to each other; they are more like the two ends of a long thread--part of the same thing." He also said, "The older I get, I guess the more I want to integrate everything. [i]I think it's more important to be faithful than right[/i]" (Nov. 16, 2004).

I'm sure this "Evening of Friendship" only frustrated the efforst of Christian ministries in Utah that work hard to win Mormons for Christ. I wonder how they felt watching these supposed "Christian" leaders join hands with Mormons and give implied approval of their false gospel.

I am not surprised at this move toward the acceptance of Mormons by some evangelicals. If John Paul II and Mother Teresa, with their false gospel, can be accepted as fellow believers, why not Mormons? Why not JW’s?

[b]2Co 6:14[/b] [i]Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?[/i]

Krispy

Hi Krispy,

Are you saying that public moves towards formal dialogue with other faiths, implies the inner life of the believer is compromised?

I would say it is not (compromised), but, I agree that there is no continuum between Christianty and Mormonism (for instance).

But then, there is no continuum between biblical faith and a great deal of what goes on in today's churches.

This is not a reason NOT to be upset by any misrepresentation of Christ to the world, but in the end, each individual soul answers for him and herself directly to God - not to the world, or to us. As such, you, and I, are free to continue evangelising to a biblical faith, those who are 'of the world', regardless of what they call themselves.

During the "Evening of Friendship" Ravi Zacharias, Michael Card, Richard Mouw and Craig Hazen said absolutely nothing about Biblical salvation to these Mormons. Instead, they joined hands and made claims that they have a common faith. This was [b]NOT[/b] evangelism. Not by a long shot.

Dorcas, did you conveniently miss the quote from Michael Card that was in my post? He said he “[b]doesn't see Mormonism and evangelical Christianity as opposed to each other; they are more like the two ends of a long thread--part of the same thing.[/b]"

Card is either showing his complete ignorance of Mormon doctrine, or he is showing that he doesnt care. I think it's both... he is ignorant, and he doesnt care... which is confirmed by his next statement when he says "[i]I think it's more important to be faithful than right[/i]." Adolf Hitler was faithful to his beliefs. (Mormons will tell you that Hitler was saved and is in a lower level heaven)

Biblical Christianity and Mormonism are polar opposites. They are [b]not[/b] "two ends of a long thread". They certainly are [b]not[/b] "part of the same thing".

Based on Card's statement alone it should be obvious that evangelism was not the motive here. If it was, it was perhaps the biggest blunder in the history of evangelism.

Card said the older he gets the more he wants to integrate everything. I think the older he gets the looser his grip on reality has become. He needs to get back to the Bible.

Scripture is pretty black and white about most things, evangelism included. Dorcas, you want to make everything fuzzy and soft. Sorry... these "evangelicals" were wrong, and they have perhaps contributed to many souls staying in Mormonism, with the ultimate result being hell.

Krispy

Adam... it's called "religious political correctness". We're too afraid we might offend someone.

I think I'd rather offend someone if it means that the offense might eventually lead them to the Lord. The cross is an offense.

Krispy

Kripsy asked

Dorcas, did you conveniently miss the quote from Michael Card that was in my post?

Did you read my post just a little too quickly? I agree with you don't I?

But what confuses most christians is the fact that if you goto google and type in 'free bibles' the only people who are willing to send you a free bible are the moromons and heretical christian denominations.

Ian... this is not entirely true. There are good fundamental Bible-believing churches that send out thousands of free Bibles every month. Here domestically and abroad. They are KJV.

Here's why they can afford to print the KJV and send it out free, and others cant afford to give away modern versions free: copyrights and royalties.

There is no copyright to the KJV. You can quote from it, print it, publish it absolutely free.

Not so with modern versions. Take, for instance, the NIV. If you print an NIV version of the Bible you have to get permission from the owner of the copyright, which is Zondervan. They wont let you print it for free, they're going to charge you... a lot. Then, should you sell them... even to recover your printing costs, you will pay royalties to Zondervan. Because Zondervan is owned by a [b]secular & godless[/b] corporation otherwise known as FOX, Fox gets a piece of the action. FOX is owned by Rupert Murdock. The money that FOX makes from the publishing companies it owns goes back into it's capital interests which is primarily trash on TV. Yea, most believers love FOXNews... but look at the absolute trash going out over the ariwaves on their networks. Pro-gay, anti-God, high school dramas where everyone is having sex, etc etc. That hot-airbag Bill O'Reilly decries television for the trash it's feeding to the kids of America... while collecting a fat paycheck from one of the biggest offenders. It's a joke!

Thats why it's difficult for a ministry to give away Bibles, other than the KJV. Simply buying bulk NIVs to give away is still putting money in the hands of a corporation that will turn around and use it to saturate our society with more immoral filth.

Thats just the NIV...

And most folks on this website who quote extensively from the NIV in their forum posts are in violation of copyright laws. Bet y'all didnt know that, did you?

The Mormon church holds it's own copyrights. They have more common sense than the [b]real[/b] church of Jesus Christ. How pathetic is that?

Krispy

He quite frankly says that Joseph Smith's teachings cannot coexhist with the claims of Jesus in the bible.

Well, then Ravi is a hypocrite. How can he claim that, yet coexist with Mormons in ecumenical communion?

My neighbors are Mormons. I'll go help them remodel a room in their house... but we sure wont be joining hands and praying together until the Word of God I am constantly trying to preach to them sinks in and they become born again. Until that time... we can not coexist in spiritual unity.

It's a dark lie to say that we can.

Krispy

but he is not above joining hands with athiests, muslims, hindus, buddhists, catholics and even mormons with the purpose of bringing the truth to them.

Where do we ever see Jesus or any of the Apostles doing this? We dont. What we do see is Paul saying:

[b]Rom 16:17[/b] [i]Now I beseech you, brethren, [b]mark[/b] then which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and [b]avoid[/b] them.[/i]

We can witness to them... but we are also to mark them and avoid them. Holding an "Evening of Friendship" with the enemies of Christ is [b]not[/b] avoiding them. And it's certainly not marking them. It's actually putting a blanket of approval on them.

It's flat out disobedience to the Word of God.

Krispy

Well I do not know the motivations of Ravi Zacharias being there

I'm not judging Ravi's heart. I am open to the idea that his intent was to be a witness. That being said, if that was his motivation... fine... but his actions were wrong. This was clearly an ecumenical service. The Mormons saw it as finding common ground, Michael Card saw is as finding common ground... and apparently any message of salvation that Ravi had to give was clearly lost on the others.

At best it was a blunder.

I've witnessed to Mormons. You dont evangelize them by joining hands with them. They think they have won you over. They want to evangelize you even more than you do them! You evangelize Mormons by [b]shattering[/b] their beliefs. You have to be tough and stern with these people. You have to confront them about what they believe. Warm mushy fuzzies and flowers will not win a Mormon.

Krispy

Karen... thanx for the recommendations. I'll check 'em out.

I know plenty about it because I used to be part of it. "Judge not" and "Touch not the Lord's annointed" was crammed down my throat during that period of time. It's their manipulative way of stopping people from questioning what was going on. Forgetting that Paul exhorted us as common believers to be Bereans... dont just accept everything you're told.

Krispy

My final thought is this... when Paul went into Athens and began to teach, he started by talking about a shrine to an unknown god. He started by finding common ground that the Greeks could meet him on.

This is a wrong perspective of what Paul did and thus gives rise to the error of this day: Paul explained what they wondered about; Paul explained the "unknown" to them. There was no unity with the Greeks, sought by him. Some even tried to kill him.

Orm

Side note: Rick Warren on Hannity and Cohmes {Fox News} last evening. in reference to inviting Barak Obama to speak at Saddleback, said he (Warren) was "pluralistic" in his religious beliefs. His word, not mine.

Seattle, huh?

After reading your post, would it be safe to surmise that you don't attend Mark Driscoll's church, Mars Hill?

just curious.

bartle

"shattering their beliefs". "You have to be stern and tough with [b]these people[/b]".

"confront"

"warm mushy fuzzies and flowers".

Boy, if you would have seen Jesus in His earthly ministry, I wonder how you would have REALLY reacted to Him.

[b]"these people"[/b]

"them"

Man, I gotta stop reading your posts, coz I just get the feeling their aint one drop of love in your words. I'm being straight with you.

"these people"....thats what really bites me, "these people" are you, me , us.

Do God a huge favor, just stay up in that home church buried far deep in the NC mountains and don't "witness" to the unbelieving...please.

Krispy, you wrote:

They wont let you print it for free, they're going to charge you... a lot. Then, should you sell them... even to recover your printing costs,

charge you a lot?

thats a lie.

I can, and do, get me a case of Bibles, NIV or KJV, take your pick for 50 bucks a case, and hand them out, 2 bucks a piece.

http://www.ibsdirect.com/c-11-paperback.aspx

and as far as "some folks" who quote extensively form the NIV being in violation of the copyright laws, I'll take my chances, coz I seriously doubt Zondervan OR IBS taking me to court or to task from quoting from Scripture.

Do you order Bibles and just hand them out?

"cost a lot".....I used to think that you and I had a lot in common, not so.

bartle

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week923/profile.html

this is man is (presumambly) is doing this benevolence for "humanity".....where are the believers alongside him? Is he "fuzzy and mushy"?

why dont you watch what he's doing?

would to God somebody tell him in Who's Name he's doing this in, without condemning him as just another "left wing do-gooder"......you don't think these kids at the garbage dump would gravitate towards Jesus if you gave them the Word?

bartle wrote:
Krispy, you wrote:

They wont let you print it for free, they're going to charge you... a lot. Then, should you sell them... even to recover your printing costs,

charge you a lot?

thats a lie.

I can, and do, get me a case of Bibles, NIV or KJV, take your pick for 50 bucks a case, and hand them out, 2 bucks a piece.

http://www.ibsdirect.com/c-11-paperback.aspx

and as far as "some folks" who quote extensively form the NIV being in violation of the copyright laws, I'll take my chances, coz I seriously doubt Zondervan OR IBS taking me to court or to task from quoting from Scripture.

Do you order Bibles and just hand them out?

"cost a lot".....I used to think that you and I had a lot in common, not so.

bartle

Don't speak of love, Bartle.

Ormly, what are you saying, when you say:

Don't speak of love, Bartle.

what does that mean?

you're saying when I call Krispy to task for his posts, and use harsh verbiage, that I shouldnt say that there is love in my posts.

hmmm.okay.

fair enough.

whatever you say sir, if thats what you meant.

bartle wrote:
you're saying when I call Krispy to task for his posts, and use harsh verbiage, that I shouldnt say that there is love in my posts.

hmmm.okay.

fair enough.

whatever you say sir, if thats what you meant.

Perhaps a better way would have been to say, don't speak from love, Bartle.

...its hard to see that you are.

I really like Mark Driscoll a lot and love what God is allowing Mars Hill to do....I love Mark's concept of "open hand" and "closed hand" in the what we believe section of Mars Hill.

May God bless you in Seattle, neil

I'm not really interested in defending myself here, but in the interest of clarification, allow me to make the following statements.

I know an Independent Baptist church here locally that prints Bibles. I know the pastor personally, and tho he wouldnt print a modern version even if it was free, we've talked about the copyright laws. Perhaps a printer can get a good price from Zondervan (or whoever) to print Bibles, but as far as I know, they usually do not give it away for free. Of course, there will always be material costs, but as far as paying for the right to print... the KJV is always free. The modern versions are not.

That is a fact.

As to my posts not being written in love... I do not sit in judgement of Ravi's salavtion, or Michael Cards, or anyone else's. I will look furher into what Ravi preached that night... and will post again concerning this. Michael Card... it baffles my mind how someone who has been in the music ministry for close to 3 decades can say the things he has said concerning the Mormon Church being a part of the true Church. He is wrong. But it shouldnt surprise anyone because for the past decade he has had close ties with the Catholic Church as well.

As far as I know, Ravi and Michael are brothers in Christ. As I said, I will look further into what Ravi had to say that night. But whenever someone influential says something, it ought to be examined publicly. When influential people say something unbiblical in the public arena, it needs to be denounced publical.

Neil, it doesnt bother me that you "called me out" on this. I'm right on this issue. Anytime I come against actions like this I get called judgemental and unloving. I'm quite used to it.

I love you Neil, I dont have a problem with you disagreeing with me. But I would like to point out that when you returned to this board you gave me your word you would stay out of "controversial" conversations with me. Normally I would come to someone privately when I feel that they are not being true to their word... but since you've chosen to call me out publicly on this, I would like to gently remind you of your oath to me. I only do so because I do not wish to see your words toward me escalate into something they shouldnt be.

So far we've had good conversations, and I've enjoyed them very much. I only wish to keep things that way.

Krispy

I would like you to answer this question and not try to avoid it the way you did with your last point. Have you ever lead a Mormon to faith in Jesus Christ by 'shattering their beliefs'?

I am unaware of me avoiding your questions. Sometimes I'm not on here for a day or so, and while I'm absent there sometimes can be up to 4 pages of posts... so I often miss questions. I would ask for some grace on that. I have other things going on in my life than just this forum.

Accusing me of avoiding your questions is a pretty clever tactic, but the fact is... I have no idea what it is that I'm supposedly avoiding. :-)

To answer your recent question... yes. I have led Mormons to Christ. My game plan has been several, it depends on who I am talking to. The very first step a Mormon will take in trying to convert you is to get you to accept that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. Well, let me back up... the first thing they will do is try an sound just like the Baptist next door. Double-speak, etc. Then they bring ol' Joe into the conversation.

Just get your hands on one of their videos. It's easy to do, especially this time of year.

So since they bring up Joe, the best way to counter that is to show them that Joe was a crook, a slickster, a con-man... and NOT a prophet. This is easily proovable. Whether they will listen. Some do... some dont.

The next course of action is to proove that Joe's account of the American Indians is completely wrong. This too is easy. I have several videos produced by a church who's specific calling is to Mormons, and the videos deal with the DNA evidence that prooves that American Indians are NOT descendants of a "lost" tribe of Israel. There is also an excellent video by the same ministry that deals with the geographical, archeological and anthrological evidence that prooves the Book of Mormon wrong.

These resources are extremely effective. Not every Mormon I've talked to about this has come to the Lord... yet. But my job is to plant seeds. Someone else may reap the harvest. But dont tell me it's ineffective just because someone hasnt converted to Christ yet.

The Mormons have a goal. That is to convert you. One way they have decided to make this happen is to convince you that they believe just as you do. It's very deceitful, and it works.

I have a goal... to be obedient to the Bible. I'll befriend a Mormon, but I wont join hands in "fellowship" because spiritually there is no fellowship in the Spirit. I will, at every opportunity, show them the error of their way. To pretend like they arent in error, and just "love on them" wont cut it. Love on them, yes... but show them the error so they can turn from it.

Everyone here loves Ray Comfort's way of reaching the heathen... confront them with the Law. So why is it when dealing with Catholics, Mormons, etc everyone is afraid of confrontation... afraid they may offend?

Krispy

I'm right on this issue.

okay. you're "right".

Don't ya see Steve, once somebody says they are "right"...period, there's no more discussion on it, period, end of sentence.

Now I gave you my oath, no more glass breaking, and if you feel I broke that oath, I apologize and I am sorry. But it feels to me, that when you post stuff, that already know that you are "right" on...why ask for discussion?

Personally, I would sit down anytime, anywhere with people of different faith, and just be. If they wanna pray together, lets go.

the first thing Jesus did in the Gospel of Matthew, besides witnessing to satan, was to say "repent, the Kingdom of Heaven is near".

So when I'm with these people, I'm gonna show them how the Kingdom of Heaven LIVES in a person, by walking that out in love and winsomeness, not by telling them that THEY are "wrong", but by making them "envious" of so great a salvation.

Coz they think they are "right", do you think my mere human words will dissuade them?....by telling them, they are "wrong", they follow a "wrong" god? that they worship demons?

no, the Holy Ghost does the speaking into a yielded heart, and if their heart aint yielded, thats between them and God, my "job" is to reflect Christ, and what did Christ do?

He went out among the "sinners", and told them, over and over the Good News, and what was that?

"The Kingdom of God is near you".

let them chew on that for a while in the quiet of the night.

What else did Jesus do? healed the sick, chased demons out of people, and fed the hungry, both physically and spiritually.

Thats why I'm leaning towards the nastiest foulest garbage dump in the third world. Soon as I complete what I gotta do here, the obligations that God gave me here, I'm heading out to the really poor and sick places as He leads.

Brother, I've done God's ministry in the most rich, ungodly, new age community in the world, fat and sassy they are, walked out the Lord, witnessed, prayed, talked, fed, loved, without agenda but His agenda, and they don't want to hear.

okay.....dusted off my feet, goodbye.

Now I'm here, amongst a community of the ungodly, God brings great blessing down on my endeavours,(Praise the name of Jesus!!) they see it, they know thats it done in His power, in the Name and for the Glory of Jesus, and it doesn't matter, their hearts are hard.

Now....no matter what WORDS I say to them, witness to them, God is irrelevant to them.
Has the seed been planted? sure, but Jesus means nothing to them. Am I yoked up with them? Heaven forbid, but do I spurn them? no, Heaven forbid.

Steve, all I'm saying is this: there are things we are "closed hand" about...and there are things that we are "open hand" about. Just try in the leading of the Lord to be more "open hand".

Thats all I'm saying.

and I wanna say one more thing, and I feel this so strongly in the Spirit, we will never see revival in America till this country is brought to its knees, literally crushed and broken. and I don't say that lightly.

Thats why MY own personal burden is to head out to the worst places of the earth with a cool drink of water. I love America, deeply, but I'm feeling the Lord is calling me elsewhere to say these words, "Repent, the Kingdom of Heaven is near"...and sometimes it feels that those with nothing are the ones who will come to Him.

God bless you is my prayer, and btw I got me 60 pounds of frozen venison in the freezer....275 degrees for 4 hours with some Sweet Baby Ray sauce and taters, onion, served over white rice, and a glass of ice water, and thas some gooooood eating. and Thanks be to God for such bounty. I wish the whole world could eat like that.

xo neil

When I declare myself to be "right", it's because scripture is black and white on fellowship between light and darkness... there can be none. Scripture is what's "right". I am merely agreeing with what God has spoken. And yes, there is really nothing more to discuss once God has decared something so clearly. The only discussion is our disobedience to God's Word.

Neil, you and others are making the assumption that I have no contact with anyone that isnt a born again Christian unless I'm beating them over the head with a Bible.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

One of our closests friends is a Catholic family. Neighbors. Our kids all play together. We see them almost on a daily basis. We are getting together for Christmas Eve dinner.

Another neighbor is Mormon. We see them all the time. I took a load of wood to them last year when the husband was laid up with an injury.

I'm around unsaved people everyday. I would dare say I'm around unsaved people more than I am saved.

But I dont pretend that there is spiritual unity... not even to see them saved. You will pray with others of a different faith. Thats between you and the Lord. I wont. Oh, I'll pray in their presence. When we have Christmas Eve dinner at our Catholic friends' house the husband will pray... but I wont. And they know that. It's their house, and I respect that. But I wont offer prayer with them as if their was spiritual unity. We're not praying to the same God.

When they're in our house, I pray.

When the conversation turns to our differences in faith, I dont get offensive about it. I usually ask questions... questions to make them think. I'll ask something about confession, or the mass... things I already know the answer about, but it's sparks a conversation. I'll ask about Joeseph Smith's adultry... or why the LDS Church heard from God to disallow poligamy at the same exact time the Federal Governmemt told Utah it couldnt become a state unless is outlawed poligamy. Things like that. Or I'll ask if they've heard about the DNA evidence that seems to debunk the Book of Mormon.

Y'all are painting me with a broad brush... like I burst into people's homes condemning them all to hell. I chuckle at that.

Let's get one thing clear... nobody on this website really knows anyone else here. Y'all dont know me. I dont know you. We draw conclusions about people based on how we read (and often misinterpret) each others posts. I do it. You do it. We all do it.

So lets all use a little common sense here. It would save me a lot of writing time having to clarify ever silly little point... :-(

Krispy

Lets say, a Jew invites you into his house, and he prays over the meal.......do you believe that you are praying to the same God?

furthering that point, let me ask you this, what does it mean to "fellowship" with another...to you, what does that mean? koinania?

lets think like an orthodox Jew for second, because thats what the pharisee's really were, you wouldn't have nothing to do with a gentile, a non-Jew, they were unclean. Jesus, who besides being the Son of God, was a Jewish rabbi, teacher, recognized as that....so what does He do, call to the scum of scum, Levi, (Matthew) a tax collector, says "follow me", without missing a beat, Levi does, next thing you know they're having a banquet with all the other despised ones, tax collectors and "sinners", and there Jesus is having dinner with them all, and who were the ones sneering at this behavior?

But what was Jesus doing?

He was fellowshipping with them all, thats what you're going to be doing with this catholic neighbor....good...and if you dont want to pray with him, don't. Thats your thing. But would you want him to read what you wrote about the roman church on this forum?

Peter broke ALL the rules of an observant Jew when he stepped inside Cornelius's house. A Jew wasn't s'posed to go anywhere near a gentiles house, much less even lay hands on him.

what if when your at this catholic mans house YOU ask to lead the prayer, and ask if you can lay hands on him and pray in the Name of Jesus?

is he gonna refuse you? "Lord bless this household in the Name of Jesus. Bless this food we are about to recieve, let it nurture us to do Your will, in the Name of Jesus, amen."

whats he gonna do, say "no"?

Jesus turned everything on its head, turned 'religion' upside down and right side out.

"common sense"? who needs it? what you call clarifying every silly little point I call discussion. Nothing is black and white, black and white IS common sense, Paul said call me a fool, lets turn this thing upside down.

Don't you see? the common sense approach is to hate your enemy, the foolsih sense is to love him. Common sense says stay with people that think just like you, the foolsih thing is to dine with those who are totally unlike you, fellowship with them, listen to them, love on them...thats the fool's approach.

What did we Jews expect when we awaited a Messiah, a warrior king who will take back a kingdom for Israel, what did we get instead, a man riding on a colt, who allowed them to slaughter Him like a Lamb without blemish.....in a common sense view that was FOOLISH! Jesus should have called in a battalion of avenging angels and just scorched the place, but He didnt.

Common sense doesnt apply to the Cross......Observant Jews were always focused on the "them", the "others", the "goy", the "unclean".....Jesus said its "them", the sick and lost, I came for.

Forgive me, if it sounds like I'm lecturing you, I'm not, I'm discussing.

Jesus was the Son of God, and this most Holy Faith is revolutionary, new wine, not hidebound to our "doctrines" and "creeds".

There is no "them", only "us". True, there is evil, but pre se a catholic isnt evil, he's just helpless and harrassed, a sheep without a Shepherd.

humbly, you should pray with and for him.

neil

Ya know what... if y'all want to call Mormons, or Jw's, or Hari Krishna's your brothers in Christ, that's between you and God.

You're completely missing my point on all of this. Since my presence on this thread is causing people to step out into personal attacks, I'll find something else to discuss on a different topic. I dont wish to be a stumbling block for anyone.

Neil... your last post was good, and brings up some good points. Regrettably I will not be responding to them (and I agree with some of them) due to the tone of some other participants of this discussion.

Krispy

I get ya. I started reading your post and I thought, "wait, I didnt say a JW or J. Smithite was a brother in Christ, and I was actually thinking of making the post header line..."oh tarnation!!"

remember that word?

oh tarnation!!!

lol.

60 pounds Steve! 60 pounds of prime venision, processed and frozen, I put about 2 to 5 pounds in individual zip loc freezer bags, and I spent an hour last night at Target looking for one of them old fashioned hand meat grinder;s, you know what I'm talking about?

couldnt find one, I mean they had everything but the kitchen sink in that store, coz I bought a 3 lb chub of 75% ground beef to add a handful of beef for fat value to deer burgers.

where do I look now? kmarts? walmarts? maybe a cooking supply store? whats a fellow got to go thru to make deer burger around here?

you should of seen my boy, he was knee deep in that deer, he loved it. my bud let him have some trigger time on a .223 heavy barrel sniper rifle, the boy loved it, and we're instilling in him good weapons safety practices, including drilling into his head that its a "rifle", a "weapon", not a "gun"....and no, I wasnt doing that the way the Marines drill it into ya.

Thats all he could talk about on the 4 hour ride home, he wants to go thru kids hunter safety course this summmer (yes son, no problem) wants me to buy him that particular weapon (yes son, but ole Johnny drives a hard bargain and it aint gonna cost what a daisy bb gun costs.) 11 years old and he dont wanna hear the word .22 caliber, says it a baby rifle. lol!!

I was teasing him on the way, I told him, I bet your gonna be a Navy Seal, he said "no way, they make you do pushups in the freezing surf for three hours". No offense, but I said, "listen to daddy, DO NOT join the Marine Corps", I don't EVER want to hear the words "Al Anbar" province".

He said, "NO." I said , "what, then?" He said, maybe Air Force para rescue".....who knows, he's a good boy though. I got him his tickets for the 28th of Dec thru the 4th of Jan.

I miss him already, he's a good boy, a good shot.

Hug your kids, your blessed to have them around 24/7, it just grieves my heart that I cant be around him all the time, but as he said, "Daddy, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

anyway, the thread: I just try and be loving to everybody, including them JW's that come to my door. But they stopped coming! lol. I was smiling at them, and before they could get cranked up, I was sitting there at my kitchen table, open Bible in front of me, big framed picture of the "Last Supper" behind me, and I'm smiling at 'em, and I said, gentleman, before you get started, I want to tell you, I believe in the Trinity, I went to the fridge, got me a jar of pickles and asked them, "this a jar of pickles, right?....singular...a jar...now inside are three pickles, thats how I feel about the Trinity".

They didnt know what to say....so then they went to their "script"....and I said, smiling, "whoa whoa whoa, I love ya, but this is an absolute with me"....and there was something in me, I was friendly, kind , smiling, but they saw that my faith was built on the Rock, and they then said they had to be moving on, I told 'em, "come on back whenever you want, your always welcome here".

they havent been back.

the apostate rubs on the faith are looking for easy pickings, thats what I figure.

Now I got a man in the cast, a good man, and he's actually a Buddhist,practicing Buddhist(whatever that means) a white man in his early sixties, but fit as a fiddle, runs marathons, I love him, a sweet man, loyal to the show, and he wants to come over here and read Bible together!!

so.....I'm gonna call him, come on over, let me turn ya onto some of my favorite Gospel passages, it was him that added "Salt and Light" to the opening passages of the play. We'll just sit here and visit, crack open the Bible and ponder over it.

thats what I meant by "close hand" "open hand"

in fact thats what I'm gonna do right now, call the old boy.

God bless ya Stevie.....

hey can I make a suggestion? and I pray I'm not outta line, when you go over to that Catholic's house, why dont you ask him if you can read a Passage appropriate for the Christmas season from Gospel before meal?

just a thot that came to me....anyway, may the Love of Jesus fall all over you today, neil

Bartle... try this link:

http://www.kitchenemporium.com/info/18grinder.html

Krispy

After reviewing Ravi's response to his critics on his website, and reviewing what he said at the Mormon Tabernacle, I believe I was wrong to be as critical of his actions as I was. I am not in total agreement with his actions, but he was in season and out of season. The Word went forth in a hell bound religious temple.

I still think that Michael Card's comments were completely off base. I still believe that the President of Fuller was waaaaay off base for the "apologies" he made to the LDS on behalf of Christians for a century and a half of rejecting the LDS. The LDS SHOULD be rejected. The people should be loved and converted, but the LDS is a wicked, evil organization. We owe them no apologies.

Krispy

Jeff... if you would read my last post you would see that I admit that I jumped the gun on this one concerning Ravi. Not sure I'm in 100% agreement with everything he did and said, but I see now that I misunderstood what this was all about. Probably because I read about the issue with Michael Card and his ignorant statements, and I allowed that to color my perspective on the whole event.

Perhaps next time Ravi will be advised not to bring Card along with him.

Krispy