The "Secret Rapture" Deception

MARTIN LUTHER: "nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist...For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny." Martin Luther, First Principles, pp. 196, 197.

JOHN CALVIN: "I deny him to be the vicar of Christ, who, in furiously persecuting the gospel, demonstrates by his conduct that he is Antichrist--I deny him to be the successor of Peter...I deny him to be the head of the church." "Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt...I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in 2 Thess 2), are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies to the Papacy." John Calvin, Tracts, Vol. 1, pp. 219, 220. John Calvin, Institutes.

JOHN WESLEY: "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers...He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honor...claiming the perogatvies which belong to God alone." Albert Close, Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, London: Thynne and Co., 1917, p.110.

JOHN WYCLIF: "Why is it necessary in unbelief to look for another Antichrist? Hence in the seventh chapter of Daniel, the Antichrist is forcefully described by a horn arising in the time of the 4th kingdom. For it grew from [among] our powerful ones, more horrible, more cruel, and more greedy, because by reckoning the pagans and our Christians by name, a lesser [greater?] struggle for the temporals is not recorded in any preceding time...and the horn has arisen from the ten horns, having eyes and a mouth speaking great things against the Lofty One, and wearing out the saints of the Most High, and thinking that he is able to change times and laws." (Daniel 7:8, 25 quoted)..."For so our clergy foresee the lord pope, as it is said of the eighth blaspheming little head." Translated from Wyclif's De Veritate Sacrae Scripturae, Vol. 3, pp. 262, 263.

There are similar statements by William Tyndale, King James, John Knox, Phillip Melanchthon and Huldreich Zwingli.

After, these men focused the fulfillment of Scripture upon the Papacy, the church commissioned a priest, named, Rivera, to come up with another interpretation of prophecy. He invented the "Secret Rapture" theory, which, does not appear in Scripture. It was picked up by Darby, and, later, by Scofield, who incorporated it into his Bible notes. In the late '60s, Scofield's Bible was very popular with Evangelicals. They ran with it.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; IN THE WHICH the heavens shall pass away with a GREAT NOISE, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10. (Compare this verse with the 7th plague in Revelation 16:17-21.)

As we can see from this verse, His coming is, neither, secret nor silent, but, the end of the world, as we know it.

What did Jesus prophesy in Matthew 24, concerning His coming?

"For THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION,SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NOR EVER SHALL BE...Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and THEN shall the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:21-35.

Jesus said, that, He was coming AFTER the Great Tribulation. Is that so scary? The seven plagues mimic the ten in Egypt. Were God's people kept from His wrath? Were Noah and his family kept safe during the flood? Yes. He is able to keep us through tribulation.

So, why did the New Testament saints look for His coming? They were being persecuted by Pagan Rome, which, persecuted Jesus. In the fifth century, the Roman Emperors gave their power, seat and great authority (Rev 13:2) to the Bishop of Rome. Papal Rome tortured and murdered Christians. One final time, the "Harlot and her daughters" - the apostate Catholic/Protestant religious system - Revelation 17) will persecute the remnant church.

It's. always, been about Rome.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Only God can make a pre-tribulationists by His Grace.

The war begins.

In Christ: Phillip

I think it is interesting how the men of old whom we would quickly quote to defend "justification", "sanctification", and other key doctrinal beliefs are thrown out the window for a relatively new teaching. Of course that being the pre-trib view, or futrist view.
We have gone through this before, and perhaps the other threads could be searched for.
Personally I lean post-trib, but this is one thing we must all be concerned with when thinking about being "caught up".
[b]"Without holiness no man shall see Him"[/b]
So does your view create holiness in your life?if not it is vanity.

We can all have our own opinions, but, there is no authority in them.

There is, only, one authority - the Word of God.

Does anyone think they have a better interpretation then Jesus?

Jesus said, "...AFTER the tribulation...shall appear the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven..."

Are we numbered with the apostate Catholic/Protestant religious system, which has substituted her traditions for God's holy Word?

Who do we think we are?

God's Holy Word says we are born again and in Christ and Christ is in us. Christ will not go through the tribulation in the believer. He already did that for us.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

If we are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, the only thing left is to take us home to His Father's House, as a Husband does in Jewish tradition. We are already His Bride, that is married to Him. We have our lamps trimmed and the Oil of the Holy Spirit to go Home with our Husband to the Fathers House. Those that are left with untrimmed lamps and no Oil will stay on earth to be saved in the tribulation.

We don't need a sign of the Son of Man we have at this time already heard His Shout Personally.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We already there, just waiting for the shout.

2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Where are we? Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Where are we going? John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Who is the way? John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

See you in the Fathers House in Heavenly Places being prepared for us by Jesus Christ Himself.

In Him: Phillip

Only God is Holy. This is truth about Jesus Christ also. No man can be Holy unless he has the Holy One Born Again in him. Holiness is not what man does but what God has done in Christ Jesus. We are Holy Because He is Holy.

1 Peter 1:14-16 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

In Christ's Holiness: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
If we are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, the only thing left is to take us home to His Father's House, as a Husband does in Jewish tradition. We are already His Bride, that is married to Him. We have our lamps trimmed and the Oil of the Holy Spirit to go Home with our Husband to the Fathers House. Those that are left with untrimmed lamps and no Oil will stay on earth to be saved in the tribulation.

I am unaware of one place that says that we are already married to God. A [b]bride[/b] is one [b]in the process of being[/b] married, but a [b]wife[/b] is one that [b]is[/b] married. Perhaps you know of one, that cannot be disputed Phillip.

Something that has occurred to me, while considering one of the Hollywood style movies that depict a "post rapture" world with "tribulation saints" fighting against the Antichrist and his forces. In the movie that I think of, Satan's minions were beings with supernatural powers, walking through walls and working other "miracles", with the Antichrist being the world leader that they answered to.

In contrast, David Pawson (one who takes a more "classical futurist" viewpoint, where the rapture occurs "post-trib/pre-millennium") teaches that the reason why there are two descriptions of Christ's return (one secret, one open) is that there will be two viewpoints of the same event:

One viewpoint will be by those who eagerly anticipate Christ's return and, like Daniel, perceive that events are presently transpiring as described in prophetic writings. These will realise that Christ is returning as we comes.

The other will be surprised by his return, being unprepared due to their ignorance of God's prophetic signs, that are clearly presented in scripture. These will most likely be also unprepared for his return, having not kept their "lamps full" as the "foolish virgins" did.

Thessalonians says that we will "meet him in the clouds". Acts says that he will return in like manner that he left. Jesus said that his return shall be as the lightning strike that lights up the whole sky. He also indicated that we will rule nations, if we have been faithful with "worldly mammon". Jude indicated that he will return with thousands of "his saints". Revelation says that he will return to rule for a millennial rule, prior to the final defeat of the "kings of this world" and even Satan himself. It also says that his martyrs and those that have not "received the mark" (whatever that is/was/will be) will rule with him.

Considering all these things, consider this hypothetical scenario, Christ returns to the Mount of Olives, with all his saints being raptured to meet him in the air, as he descends. The dead, in Christ rise first, being glorified with incorruptible bodies, and those who remain will be changed, and follow them. For some, this will be expected, for others this will be a surprise, but everyone will see what has happened, whether they interpret it correctly or not. Christ goes on to reign from Jerusalem, fulfilling the prophecy that the "law will go out from Zion", and his glorified saints will be as "bureaucrats" enforcing his will, on his behalf. Censorship, morality and righteousness will be a matter of law, but there will remain some who are not "true believers", who will resent such a "violation of their civil rights" from such a "dictator".

Now consider this, there will be some who will be expecting a "secret rapture" prior to this "millennial reign" (if they expect the latter at all). What if these will be left behind (had my hypothesis above been true). Consider that they hear of one who is ruling in Jerusalem, and has enforced a strict legal system, and has claimed absolute global control. Those who enforce his laws, have supernatural powers and are enforcing peace, and allegiance to this world leader. I wonder if these "tribulation saints" will think that Jesus is actually the Antichrist? Perhaps they will be the ones who will gather together, rallying the "kings of the world" to support their "crusade".

The way I figure it, if the rapture were pre-trib, then either I'll go up, or I'll be left behind, and will be as the early church saints were with Nero, submitting themselves to him, while refusing to bow down to him. However, if a post-trib rapture occurred the way I claimed earlier, then if I am raptured, then case closed, for Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "...then we shall know, even as we are known.." Either way, believing what I belive (which is my earlier hypothesis), I will be safe, because the only thing that will spare me is trusting in the Lord, who will save me, regardless.

In light of all this, I read Acts 19 today, and was struck with something, Paul spoke in Ephesus for two years, regarding the kingdom, working miracles, and all Asia Minor heard the message. When the "seven sons of Sceva" were stripped and beaten, all Ephesus seemed to turn to God, in fear, burning their occult literature. Paul sent his companions on to Macedonia, and those who profited from "Dianna worship" stirred up the whole city to chant "Great is Dianna of Ephesus".

It is entirely possible for the inhabitants of Earth to yield to Christ's Millennial reign, and then revolt, when one comes promising to overthrow the One who will not tolerate their excuses from immorality. My prayer is that I will not be amongst them. May that be yours also.

In our presumption and arrogance, we can pontificate all we want.

Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, NOR EVER SHALL BE...immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days...and THEN...shall they see the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds..."Matthew 24. (Does it matter to us, what He said?)

Jesus disappeared into clouds, and will return the same way. If He is to stay here during the milennium, why rapture the saints?

I suggest, that, the saints spend the thousand years with Him and descend with Him in the New Jerusalem, when the milennium is over.

I agree with Greg. I'm still praying on a more solid refutement in the Word to take a stand against 'secret rapture/pre-trib'.

Now. I have two comments that I know from the word of God.

Revelation 3:10 - Gracealone, I know this scripture is used a lot for the pre-tribers but let me show you the greek.

[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&verse=10&version=KJV#10]Rev. 3:10 in greek[/url]

Now, lets look at the word [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&verse=10&strongs=5083&page=]keep[/url] in the greek because that's what the pre-tribers use to say 'we will be removed'.

Now, this greek word is in the KJV 75 times. Here are a few examples of 'keep'.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, [b]keep[/b] the commandments.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] [b]observe[/b] and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast [b]kept[/b] the good wine until now.

Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man [b]keep[/b] my saying , he shall never see death.

This is the defination of this word 'keep'.

Def. - to attend to carefully, [b]take care of[/b]
a) to guard
b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
c) to observe
d) to reserve: to [b]undergo[/b] something

Let's just take Matthew 19:17 - And he(Jesus) said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, [b]keep[/b] the commandments.

Was Jesus saying. "If thou wilt enter into life, remove the commandments."? Uh...no. Therefore, this scripture (Rev. 3:10) is taken completly out of context and doesn't aid to the discussion of pre-triber but instead aids to Christ PROTECTING His church in the trib.

We will be in the tribulation but this is what Jesus says.

John 16:33
33"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

Then, shall we be removed, look at Christ's prayer.

John 17:15
15"I do [b]not[/b] ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Guess what that 'keep' word. Ha, it's the SAME greek word in Rev. 3:10.

May God give revelation to the saints that are seeking the Truth.

God's Holy Word says we are born again and in Christ and Christ is in us. Christ will not go through the tribulation in the believer. He already did that for us.

Philip,

Can I ask you a question about the above statement? You say that you don't believe Jesus will go through the trib..........is it then your belief then that NO ONE will come to salvation through the tribulation?

See, for me, this is one of the biggest issues which completely discounts the idea of pre-trib rapture, besides the multitudes of scriptures which clearly discount for me.

NOONE can be saved without being born again. When someone is born again, Christ dwells within them. It seems to me that the pre-trib rapture doctrine is seriously flawed in understanding the nature of salvation and that when Paul spoke I Thess. 5:9-10 it pertains to ALL believers of ALL time, not just those believers who have been born prior to the very last days.

Some have been born.........some are still in the "womb".......but all that have been given to Jesus by the Father WILL come to Him (Jn 6) and He will raise them up ON THE LAST DAY. All the Father has given Jesus are NOT appointed to WRATH (I Thess. 5:9-10).

I wanted to post one more scripture for consideration:

II Thess. 1:6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Does it appear in this passage that we will meet our Lord BEFORE the judgment on wicked man or does it appear that Paul is teaching the saints to be encouraged in their suffering by the wicked.........the Lord IS coming with His holy angels----in flaming fire to exact vengeance on those who trouble the saints and disobey the Lord. It also speaks of THIS being the time when Jesus will be glorified in His saints.

[i]Moderator note: Copied the following from a posting by the same name and pasted it here, the other duplicate post will be removed. Please, when responding to an ongoing discussion, use the "Reply" button rather than starting a new post by the same name. Thanks [/i]

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Poster Thread
sscr01
Not too shy to talk

Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 26

I suggest, that, He comes, raptures the church, takes us up with Him, after 1,000 years, we return in the New Jerusalem. The wicked are revived, and attack the city. They are defeated.

Then...the judgement.

2006/12/2 8:24

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place......For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21

Christians do go thru trials and tribulation and have been since the first century, but what Jesus called the, "great tribulation" is a seven year period spelled out in Daniel ch.9.
Seventy weeks (or seventy seven year periods) 490 years, are issued to Daniel's people(Jews), and Daniel's holy city(Jerusalem) v24-27.
This 490 year period began with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, which took place on March 14th, 445BC(Nehemiah 2:4-8).
Daniel states that after 483 years Messiah will present himself as King. Jesus fulfilled this when he rode a donkey into Jerusalem exactly 483 years later to the day, on April 6th, 32AD.
But then Daniel states that this time period will be stopped because the Messiah will be killed(but not for himself)v26.
At this time God stops dealing with the Jews and starts dealing with, "The Church". This is the time frame we are in today, The Church Age. It has lasted for almost 2000 years(since Acts chapter 2). 69 weeks (or 483 years) is over, but there is one week(or 7 years) left. The 70th week is a 7 year period that Jesus called," the great tribulation". It is a period of time when God starts dealing with the Jews again. The church was not on this earth during the first 69 weeks and the church will not be on this earth during the 70th week. The church must be removed before the 7 years of tribulation can begin. Jesus will come back for his bride, there will be people saved during the tribulation, but they will not be part of the church(or the bride of Christ), they will be tribulation saints.

The starting point for the 2300-day and 490-year prophecies in Daniel, began with the Persian King Artaxerxes authorizing God's people (who were captive in Medo-Persia) to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city. The decree in Ezra 7 was implemented in the Autumn. Artaxerxes began his reign in 464 B.C. The angel said that 69 prophetic weeks, or 483 literal years (69 x 7 = 483) added to 457 B.C. would reach Messiah (Jesus) in Daniel 7:25. 483 years from the fall of 457 B.C., reaches the fall of A.D. 27.

The word "Messiah" means "anointed." (John 1:41, margin). Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:38) at his baptism (Luke 3:21,22). His anointing took place in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar (Luke 3:1), which was A.D. 27. Jesus began to preach that the time was fulfilled (the 483 years which were to reach to the Messiah). He confirmed the prophecy (Mark 1:14, 15; Galatians 4:4). So, Jesus, actually, began His ministry by relating the 2300-day prophecy.

Jesus was "cut-off" or crucified "in the midst of the week," which is 3 1/2 years after His anointing. In verse 26 the Gospel is revealed: "After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut-off, but not for Himself." For us!

This passage is referring to the Messiah, not the Antichrist. Jesus was cut-off, then, the Gospel continued to go to the Jews, for 3 1/2 years, until, the stoning of Stephen.

This passage is referring to the Messiah, not the Antichrist. Jesus was cut-off, then, the Gospel continued to go to the Jews, for 3 1/2 years, until, the stoning of Stephen.

Have to agree with ya here. History is hard to refute, and this is historically proven.
As of late I have been looking into the "historical" view of prophecy and of the views that are around this one seems to make the most sense.

There were three authorizations in Ezra to return to Jerusalem, but they were all decrees to rebuild the Temple only. Daniel 9:25 is very clear that the 70 weeks start with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, it says the street shall be built and the wall. The only decree to rebuild the walls and the city was issued by Artaxerxes in Nehemiah 2, on March 14th, 445BC.
Daniel 9:25 also says that,"From the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah the King...". It does not say to reach Messiah. The word for "King" is Nagid it always means the "King of the Jews". There is only one day in history when Jesus allowed himself to be worshipped as the King. The day he presented himself to Jerusalem, riding in through the east gate on a donkey, exactly 173,880 days (483 years) after the decree given in Nehemiah 2.
Tiberius Caesar took office in 15 AD, his 15th year in office would have been 29 AD.
v26 says that Jesus was cut off, after threescore and two weeks(62 weeks), that comes after the first seven V25, which is a total of 69 weeks. It doesn't say Jesus was cut off " in the midst of the week".
The 70th week has not taken place yet.
v24- Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,(to do what?)
1. to finish the transgression.
We still have transgression.
2. to make an end of sins.
We still have a lot of sin.
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
I'll give you this one because Jesus accomplished this on the cross.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
Everlasting righteousness has not been brought in that I can see.
5. to seal up the vision and prophesy, and to annoint the most holy place.
The most holy place will only be annointed when Jesus takes his rightful place on his throne in Jerusalem. Right now he is sitting on his father's right hand.
The last 7 year period has not taken place yet or all these things would be a reality. The book of Revelation details these 7 years from Chapters 6- 19. At the end of chapter 19 it becomes obvious that these details are a reality and the world is much different from the way it is today.

I see where you are coming from on the time line, I just think it's a little off. None of these details really effect the rapture though, either way Jesus is still coming back for the church. We still have to be with him in heaven for the marriage supper of the lamb, and then return to earth with him. If the rapture is Post-trib, that makes the marriage supper a sack lunch.

"unto Messiah," means "unto Messiah."

The word in Daniel in the Hebrew, is "Messiah," - "Mashiyah; anointed; spec. the Messiah, not, Antichrist.

As the Encyclopedias begin the reign of Tiberius in A.D. 14, some scholars question the fixed date, as the Emperors' reigns overlapped one another.

457 B.C - Decree
AD 27 - Baptism
AD 31 - Crucifixion ("cut-off")
AD 34 - Stephen stoned

It says in Daniel 9, that, "Messiah" would be "cut-off" that is a Hebrew expression for death. After Jesus'31/2 year ministry ended, He confirmed the covenant, by sending His disciples to the Jewish nation (Matthew 10:5,6) because the chosen people, still, had 31/2 years remaining of their 490 year opportunity.

Also, it is not consistent in prophecy, to separate the last week and thrust it down into the end of time. Where is the precedent?

Jesus returns, to collect us, we go to Heaven for 1,000 years, and return in the New Jerusalem - then, He will reign upon the earth in His Kingdom.
We are with Him 1,000 years - that, is no "sack lunch."

By the way, the Apostle Paul makes it plain - we are, now, His temple upon the earth. 2 Cor 6:16. That is why the Reformers. pointed to the Papacy as, the "Son of Perdition," that, sits in God's temple (His church) as if he were God.

Jesus rules and reigns in His temple - in us!

We still have to be with him in heaven for the marriage supper of the lamb, and then return to earth with him. If the rapture is Post-trib, that makes the marriage supper a sack lunch.

ingleb,

Do you believe that there will be noone born again after a rapture?

Scripture clearly teaches that ALL who are born again are "in Christ"........being "in Christ" makes one part of His Body/The Church (Eph. 1:22-23). How is it that you believe the entire church is in heaven during the days preceeding His 2nd Glorious return?

The late Bill Britton of springfield Missouri has written and taught a great deal on this subject. he points out many problems with the doctrine of the rapture of the church from a very scripturally founded view.

I heard a brother, can't back him because I haven't looked into it yet, but he said that the '70' weeks of daniel was actually FULFILLED with the Messiah coming again. And that most pre-tribers can't do math because it is completely fulfilled. And the 70 weeks only refers to Christ's FIRST coming, not a 'part a' of His second coming.

Anywho. Just an opinion, not much strength but it does go against the math of the pre-tribers.

Till God shows me the truth of the matter. I will be like Keith Green, "Pray for Pre, prepare for Post."

Also, another thing to note even the Chinese church DOESN"T agree on this part of doctrine. Amazing that God is moving mightly, yet they don't have a full agreement on the end time theology. Humorous in a way, but sad in another. Because even though they disagree with one another on this topic, they don't let it divided them, like it does with the American church.

To the Moderator - You said, that, no one knows where the "Secret Rapture," came from. If you re-read my post, you will discover, that it came from a Catholic priest, named Rivera.

I hope you all will re-read Matthew 24. Jesus, plainly, said, He is coming AFTER the tribulation.

One of the 5 virgins that trimmed their lamps. The ones that are Raptured unto the wedding feast of the Lamb.

The other five virgins must loose their heads for salvation during Satan's reign in the temple of God. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The dead in Christ will rise first. Then those that are left. But, those that are left in the tribulation will not be born again, but will live with Christ on earth, not in heavenly places in Christ Jesus in the Place Jesus Christ is preparing for those that are born again, those that are from the Cross to the rapture, just before the tribulation.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Believe now and receive Christ and be with Him in His Father's House forever.

Believe in the tribulation and loose your head for not taking the mark of the Beast and dying for the witness of Jesus Christ.

In Christ: PHillip

Eph 2v20, 'Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets...

The foundation of the apostles?

11 of the 12 apostles were martyred, Jesus himself was crucified. Paul the apostle was beheaded.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 10 that a disciple is not above his master.

If Jesus and the apostles suffered, what makes us suppose we won't suffer?

It is that, the fear of suffering, that brings about a false belief in a pre-trib rapture.

We relate to the 10 plagues of Egypt, God kept Israel from harm during that time, for the glory of His name, due to His promise to Abraham.

However, He dealt with them in the wilderness as He saw fit.

Christians are being slaughtered right now in Islamic and communist countries. It would be nice for them if the 'rapture' were to happen right now, so they can escape torture and death at the hands of their persecutors.

Hebrews 13v3 says 'Remember the prisoners, as if chained with them, those who are mistreated, since you yourselves are in the body also'

That would be more worthy than wasting good time wrangling about pre or post trib rapture.

God bless.

With all due respect to teachers, the Lord wants us to grow up and study the Scriptures, ourselves, as the Bereans, "...who received the Word with all readiness of mind, searching the Scriptures, daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11.

When will we go to the Word, and stop depending upon others? Rather, then listening to opinions, let's go to the source.

There is authority, only, in one place - the Word of God.

We are in a spiritual warfare. We are to "walk as He walked." What did Jesus do? He didn't say, "My church says, or so and so says..." He said, "It is written..."

And so should we.

The other five virgins must loose their heads for salvation during Satan's reign in the temple of God.

........those that are left in the tribulation will not be born again, but will live with Christ on earth, not in heavenly places in Christ Jesus in the Place Jesus Christ is preparing for those that are born again, those that are from the Cross to the rapture, just before the tribulation.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

How do you reconcile that Jesus rejects the 5 virgins when they come to Him, yet in the above passage Jesus said that all that the Father gave Him will NOT be rejected?

About those '5 virgins' rejected. Where in the world do you get that interpretation??

That parable is simply stating that we are to be ready, for what? The rapture? NO! But for the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST. Let's not twist scripture. That is disgusting what you just did. Twisting scripture completely to bring your case across. If you dont know, you don't know. DONT DARE twist scripture by your opinion.

Brother, I love you just as any good friends would. But seriously, keep in mind that your teaching, and mine, (all of ours) will go before God and He will ask us. "Did you seek Me, on this matter? Or did you twist My Word to fit your opinion?"

Teachers, in any form, will be judged on a HIGHER standard, so be careful.

In all due respect. If this came across too blunt, I'm sorry but I feel that adulteration of the Word of God should be stopped.

The rest of the dead, would be the wicked.

Jesus said, "Not every one that SAITH unto me, Lord,Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.

MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? (we might be impressed) and in thy name done many wonderful works?" ("Christians" do works in Jesus' name.)

And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ("lawlessness") Matthew 7:21-23.

Jesus will say to the ten foolish virgins, "I KNOW YOU NOT." Matthew 25:12

The flip side is "And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments.

He that saith, I KNOW HIM, and keepeth not his commandments, is a LIAR and the truth (Jesus - John 14:6; the law - Ps 119:142 & all his commandments - Ps 119:151) is not in him." 1 John 2:3,4.

If we continue in sin (the "transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4), He does not know us, and we do not know Him - we are lost, forever. (Not my words - His.)

When Jesus gave us, the two "Greatest Commandments," He was quoting the law. Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18.

(The New Covenant is the Old Covenant (the Ten Commandments - Deuteronomy 4:13) law written in our hearts and minds. - Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:26,27)

I run into "Christians," all the time, that, have abused grace to the point, that, they don't think they have to keep His commandments:

"Shall we CONTINUE to sin ("transgress the law") that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Romans 6:1,2. If we are dead to sin, we don't transgress His law, (which, includes the fourth commandment.)

They have a rude awakening coming.

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life, AND MAY ENTER IN through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation, unto all them that obey Him." Hebrews 5:9.

Quote:

"So, you are saying that the virgins that were rejected from Christ are truly His?? Are you also saying that those who are of the 1st resurrection can be resurrected WITHOUT being born again? How is that possible?"

Was Abraham, Moses, Nicodemus etc. born again?
Not possible.

Who are the born again? Those that are born of water an spirit. Who is the Living Water? Christ. Who is the Spirit? The Spirit of God the Father, The Spirit of Jesus Christ an the Holy Spirit. At Pentecost The Holy Spirit came into the believers, Then the Spirit of Christ was birthed in us, and Jesus and His Father make their abode with us. So what is born again?

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Therefore;

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Are we risen with Christ?

Col 2:12 Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [Him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead.

We are already risen with Him;

Romans 8:34-39 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

YES:::: Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

What is born again, by Whom, unto Whom.

By God the Father through Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit unto Love of the Father.

1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

What does that make us? Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

How do we overcome and are Justified unto son's? Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip

"For HE IS NOT A JEW, who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, and not in the letter: whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:28,29.

Salvation, has always, been by faith:

"A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT will I out WITHIN YOU: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put MY SPIRIT within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments and do them." Ezekiel 36:26,27.

His mercy and grace are seen throughout the Old Testament! (They looked forward to the promise, and we look backward.)

We are saved by grace, through faith unto good works. The good works give evidence of our saving faith.

The Old Covenant was based upon the promise of the people. Exodus 24:7. They failed. When the Lord writes His Covenant (the Ten Commandment Law. Deuteronomy 4:13) in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:31-34), He says, that, He will "CAUSE US" by putting His spirit within us to walk in His statutes and judgments.

In Psalm 119, the word, "word," is used, interchangeably with, "statutes," "judgments," "testimonies," "law," "commandments," "precepts."

Jesus is the Word, the statutes, the law, testimonies, judgments...Why? Because He fulfills the law - all righteousness. Why? Because there is no sin ("the transgression of the law") in Him.

When we walk in covenant with Him, He "CAUSES US" to fulfill the law!

Not by our might or power, but, by His Holy Spirit of Grace. Hebrews 10:26-31.

Sin - "the transgression of the law" causes separation between us and our holy God. If we, truly, love Him, we will walk with Him in righteousness and holiness - in obedience.

When we transgress, His law acts as a mirror, exposes our sin, so, that we may repent, be cleansed and changed into HIS IMAGE - that, is what sanctification is, and the circumcision of the heart. His law, continues to be our schoolmaster, on an on-going basis, to lead us to Christ. It reveals His standard of righteousness, and our failure to live up to it in our own strength, causing us to come to Him on a daily basis.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20.

The law - His, holy Word, the two-edged sword, worketh death in us, so that He might reign through us!

Isn't that what we want?

I agree with you that the word in Daniel 9:25 is "Mashiach", right after that word comes, "Nagid", usually translated, "Messiah the Prince" or "Messiah the King". There is only one day in history that Jesus presented himself as a King and it was not at his baptism. I also never said that this is speaking of the Antichrist, it is absolutely speaking of Jesus.

Your Words:
" It says in Daniel 9, that, "Messiah" would be "cut-off" that is a Hebrew expression for death. After Jesus'31/2 year ministry ended, He confirmed the covenant, by sending His disciples to the Jewish nation (Matthew 10:5,6) because the chosen people, still, had 31/2 years remaining of their 490 year opportunity."

Your saying that Matthew 10, took place 3 1/2 years after Jesus was Baptised??? That's not possible, it took place very early in his ministry right after the 12 were chosen.
Even worse, are you saying that 3 1/2 years after Jesus died on the cross was the end of the opportunity for Jews to be saved? Can a Jew not be saved today?
The answer is that at the end of the 490 years(Daniel's 70 weeks), it will be the end of any opportunity for a Jew to be saved, because Jesus will be standing on the earth. But the 490 years is NOT OVER YET. Do you believe that a Jew can be saved today???
If you really believe this view of the 70 weeks is correct, then you must believe that God is finished with the Jews forever.

There is one week left of Daniel's 70 weeks(7 years). God is not yet finished with the Jew's. Everything we see happening in the world today, is the pre-game show to those 7 years when the whole world has to deal with Israel. (Revelation 6-19)

Jesus was crucified 3 1/2 years after His baptism, when He was anointed by the Holy Spirit for ministry. The veil of the temple was rent, and the sacrificial system was ended. Then, His disciples continued His ministry to the Jewish nation for 3 1/2 years. (This is commonly accepted, and not controversial.)

After the stoning of Stephen, the Lord raised up Paul to go to the Gentiles:

"Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you (the Jewish nation): but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yurselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, WE TURN TO THE GENTILES." Acts 13:46.

The Lord continued to save individual Jews as in Galatians 3:27-29.

The promised salvation was made through Abraham to the children of promise (Romans 9:6-8), who are justified by faith - whether, Jew or Gentile.

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: but the children of the promise are counted for seed." Romans 9:6-8.

"For HE IS NOT A JEW, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: BUT HE IS A JEW, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:28, 29.

(I have a Jewish family, right now, that, is embracing Jesus as their Messiah.)

It is, no longer, about national identity, but, faith alone.

The door is open to ALL:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond or free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And IF ye be Christ's, then are YE Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:28,29.

I agree with almost everything you just said. I don't think your going to find any scriptual basis for Jesus' disciples continuing to take the Gospel to the Jews for 3 1/2 years after the cross and then suddenly stopping because Stephen was stoned. Where is it documented that Stephen was stoned 3 1/2 years after the cross?
The Great Commission was given by Jesus to the eleven disciples right after His resurrection, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations....Matthew 28: 19. Did they disobey him for 3 1/2 years??
The book of Hebrews was written in 64AD, to THE HEBREWS. James wrote in 60AD, "to the twelve tribes scattered abroad...James 1:1.
The ministry to the Jewish nation did not end 3 1/2 years after Jesus died on the cross, and for that matter it did not begin with any of the 3 decrees of Ezra to rebuild the temple or the decree of Nehemiah to rebuild the walls. This is why your interpretation of Daniel 9: 24-27 cannot possibly be correct.

Dan 8:14: 2300 prophetic days (or 2300 literal years) until the sanctuary would be cleansed.

Dan 8:17-19,26,27 It would be cleansed "at the time of the end"

Dan 9:22-24: 70 weeks (490 years) of the 2300 were "determined" (cut off) for the Jews.

Dan 9:25: The beginning date for the prophecy as "when the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem goes forth."

Ezra 7&8: Here the decree of Artaxerxes is recorded - 457 B.C. 70 weeks, or 490 years from 457 B.C., brings us to 34 AD (there is no "O" year). In 34 AD, Stephen, the first Christian martyr was stoned by the Jews, and the disciples turned and went to the Gentiles (see Acts 13:46-50)

Dan 9:25: It would be 69 weeks, or 483 literal years until the Messiah would come. From the beginning date, 457 B.C., subtract 483 years and it brings us to 27 AD. This is the year Jesus announced Himself to be the Messiah and was baptized, and anointed of the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:21,22;Acts 10:37,38).

Dan 9:27: Jesus would comfirm the covenant (with the Jews, Gen 17:2) for one week, or seven years. Seven years from 27 AD brings us to 34 AD. In the midst of week (3 1/2 years), Jesus would cause the sacrifice to end. 3 1/2 more years, brings us to the Spring of 31 AD, when Jesus died. The veil in the temple was torn by God and the sacrificial system was finished.

You may disagree that the disciples continued to go to the Jewish nation for 3 1/2 years after Jesus' death, but, that is the commonly held position among theologians.

Until the stoning of Stephen, the Gospel went to the Jewish nation...then, the Gentiles were grafted in.

It is, no longer, about an earthly nation, but, a spiritual people. It was, once, an earthly kingdom, with earthly battles, and an earthly promised land.

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world..."

Now, the focus is on a spiritual people, with spiritual battles, and a spiritual kingdom - no Jews, or Gentiles, but one people in Christ. It is, no longer, about a temple in Jerusalem. Paul tells us, that, we are, now, His temple upon the earth. The sacrificial system is finished. He is our Lamb, our High priest, our temple, our manna...

Even, the Reformers believed this. As I have stated, that is why they called the Papacy, the "Son of Perdition," that sits in God's temple, meaning His church - not a temple in Jerusalem.

The Gospel is now going to the whole world.

He has "broken down the middle wall of partition between the two nations, and made us one in Him.

Why do you pick Artaxerxes decree in Ezra 7&8? That was NOT the first decree to rebuild the temple, and all 3 decrees in Ezra are to rebuild the temple. There is a big difference between a decree to rebuild one building and a decree to rebuild an entire city. The decree in Nehemiah 2 is the only decree in the Bible to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, you are taking Daniel 9:25 and just applying it to where ever the math works out without paying attention to what it says. The first decree to rebuild the temple is in Ezra 1, by Cyrus in 536BC, why not use that date. What basis do you use to choose Ezra 7&8, the last decree to rebuild the temple as your starting point?

This decree, found in Ezra 7, was issued in 457 B.C. - the seventh year of the king (verse 7) - and was implemented in the autumn.

Ezra led the second return in 458 B.C.

Do you have a better interpretation of the 2300 year prophecy?

What's Autumn got to do with it. Are you connecting this with the dedication ceremony in the New Testament?

I wondered if I was the only one that thought the rapture was a far-fetched interpretation of scripture... glad to see I wasn't the only skeptic :)

YOU REMEMBER we spoke last Sabbath morning of "the days of the Son of man." Oh that every Sabbath now might be a day of that kind in the most spiritual sense. I hope that we shall endeavour to make each Lord's Day as it comes round a day of the Lord, by thinking much of Jesus by rejoicing much in him, by labouring for him, and by our growingly importunate prayer, that to him may the gathering of the people be. We may not have very many Sabbaths together, death may soon part us; but while we are able to meet as a Christian assembly, let us never forget that Christ's presence is our main necessity, and let us pray for it and entreat the Lord to vouchsafe that presence always in displays of light, life and love! I become increasingly earnest that every preaching time should be a soul-saving time. I can deeply sympathize with Paul when he said, "My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved." We have had so much preaching, but, comparatively speaking, so little believing in Jesus; and if there be no believing in him, neither the law nor the gospel has answered its end, and our labour has been utterly in vain. Some of you have heard, and heard, and heard again, but you have not believed in Jesus. If the gospel had not come to your hearing you could not have been guilty of refusing it. "Have they not heard?" says the apostle. "Yes, verily:" but still "they have not all obeyed the gospel." Up to this very moment there has been no hearing with the inner ear, and no work of faith in the heart, in the case of many whom we love. Dear friends, is it always to be so? How long is it to be so? Shall there not soon come an end of this reception of the outward means and rejection of the inward grace? Will not your soul soon close in with Christ for present salvation? Break! Break, O heavenly day, upon the benighted ones, for our hearts are breaking over them.

The reason why many do not come to Christ is not because they are not earnest, after a fashion, and thoughtful and desirous to be saved, but because they cannot brook God's way of salvation. "They have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge," We do get them by our exhortation so far on the way that they become desirous to obtain eternal life, but "they have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God." Mark, "submitted themselves," for it needs submission. Proud man wants to save himself, he believes he can do it, and he will not give over the task till he finds out his own helplessness by unhappy failures. Salvation by grace, to be sued for in forma pauperis, to be asked for as an undeserved boon from free, unmerited grace, this it is which the carnal mind will not come to as long as it can help it: I beseech the Lord so to work that some of you may not be able to help it. And oh, I have been praying that, while this morning I am trying to set forth Christ as the end of the law, God may bless it to some hearts, that they may see what Christ did, and may perceive it to be a great deal better than anything they can do; may see what Christ finished, and may become weary of what they themselves have laboured at so long, and have not even well commenced at this day. Perhaps it may please the Lord to enchant them with the perfection of the salvation that is in Christ Jesus. As Bunyan would say, "It may, perhaps, set their mouths a watering after it," and when a sacred appetite begins it will not be long before the feast is enjoyed. It may be that when they see the raiment of wrought gold, which Jesus so freely bestows on naked souls, they will throw away their own filthy rags which now they hug so closely.

Delivered on Lord's-Day Morning, November 19th, 1876, by

C. H. SPURGEON,

At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."—Ro 10:4

May we come to the truth that Christ is truly the end of the Law to all that believe. For the Law kills, but The Grace of God in Christ Jesus is Life and understanding in the Love of God.

This is the Hope of All Glory unto God; "That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory". The life of Christ is the only life that completed the Law and took it completely away, that we might live unto God by His work in us. It is Him, Jesus Christ in whom we live and move and have our being. The very righteousness of God, which is only Christ and Him alone, by being born again He, is become our righteousness, our wisdom our sanctification and our redemption. That is Christ alone by His Life in the believer, leaving man absolutely powerless to attain any thing pertaining to God on his own.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Only believe, that is all we can do. The rest has already been done by God through Jesus Christ on the Cross and when He said, "it is finished", it was. Nothing else to obtain salvation except believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. You say repent, without Christ, repent of what, we know not even what to repent of. With Christ all things are become new, the old has passed away and behold all things are become New. That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, the mystery that no one else even thought of before it was revealed to Paul. Why do we try to make it so hard by works of faith of Abraham and ourself and trying to overcome all that Christ finished and make ourselves profitable to God by who we think we are because we made the decision. Bunk, It is all Christ and nothing we do can overcome that work. Colossians 1:23-28 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

And That Grace and Faith is not of ourselves.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God ahead redrive the nails in His hand, and prove Him wrong and put ourselves on the Cross.

By the only life and power of Love unto God, that is, In Christ: Phillip

Was Abraham, Moses, Nicodemus etc. born again?

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God......

Do you believe Moses, Abraham, Nicodemus, etc cannot see the kingdom of God?

Also another couple of passages to consider:

I Cor. 10:1-4: 1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Rom. 8:9---
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Eph. 2:12-22----
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Unless, you have a better interpretation of the 2300 year prophecy, I will stick to this one.

If so, I would be interested in hearing it. My goal is truth, and I am willing to be corrected.

I'm not a Seventh day Adventist, so I guess we are not going to agree.

If you have a better understanding of prophecy, I would, really, like to hear it. I mean that, sincerely.

I have SkyAngel and listen to teaching from Baptists, Reformed, Pentecostals, SDAs,and others...and then, I do as the Bereans, who "...received the Word with all readiness of mind, searching the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11

That is what mature Christians do.

In 1 Corinthians 1-3, the Apostle Paul condemned the denominational system:

"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas (Peter) and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul"

"For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal and walk as men?"

James said, "For where envying and strife is, there is confusion (just like at Babel) and every EVIL work." James 3:16.

The denominational system has replaced much of God's Word with tradition. That is why, she is called, the "Harlot and her daughters," in Revelation 17.

While, I have learned from the SDA, I do not agree with all of it's doctrines.

I have been in several denominational and non-denominational churches, but have yet, to find any church, which, teaches the totality of God's Word.

bro sscr01

Jesus returns, to collect us, we go to Heaven for 1,000 years, and return in the New Jerusalem - then, He will reign upon the earth in His Kingdom.

the way it seems to me according to Revelation 20, Christ returns with whatever saints are in heaven from the O.T. and others from the N.T. and sets up His Kingdom here for 1000 yrs. the ones ruling with Him are those who die during the tribulation for refusing to worship the beast (that's a really cool group to be associated with!) These are those of the first resurrection after which they are going to be kings and priests with Christ forever. So if the rapture occurs pre-trib, it will not be a rapture of ALL the saints apparently because many will come to Christ during the trib. Now the word doesn't say anyone gets taken up to heaven at that point but the word implies however that those on the earth at that time are not the full number of people because after the 1000 yrs is over, the rest of the dead arise at the same time as satan is once again turned loose and those people will have a choice to make before the final war of Gog and Magog and also the last vials of plagues which our God will pour out on the earth.

i think after all this will we inhabit the new Jerusalem. it seems to me those of us who will rule with Christ 1000 yrs will do so from Jerusalem with the new Jerusalem coming down as a bride adorned for her husband after all the wicked are cast into the lake of fire and the remnant of the righteous is gathered up.

perhaps i misread/misunderstood what you wrote bro, if i did forgive me and correct me.

God bless

Peacecraft wrote:
I wondered if I was the only one that thought the rapture was a far-fetched interpretation of scripture... glad to see I wasn't the only skeptic :)

bro Peacecraft
i am skeptical of it also because it seems to me most people are looking for a way out of this place without dramatic changes (repentance) in their lives.

oh dear brethren! Are we so sure we are ready for rapture? for to be raptured is to go to see God and to see Him is to be Holy as He is as per Hebrews 12 vs 14. who among us can make such a claim? i confess to you my brethren, i have much, much dross in my which must yet be purged by the Refiner's Fire! Have you no dross? Have you attained Holiness? Have you come through the Refiner's Fire? Brethren our Lord is returning for a Church without spot, wrinkle or any such thing as per ephesians 5:27. Have you no wrinkles which need ironing? out or spots which need purging?

brethren i had the privilege of reading Tortured for Christ by Richard Wurmbrand and it blew my mind. the accounts of what our brethren suffered and continue to suffer under communism and other sytems of this world brought me to shame. Here are saints to whom the gospel is all, the gospel has a gravity to them which we can't attest to because we do not know the suffering they know! brethren i don't know about you but i want to have the gospel mean as much for me as it does them!The faith of the saints of old was proved through persecution and if they, having seen Christ and walked with Him were so called to prove their faith, what more of us? do we really think we will escape persecution? do we really think we will not be called upon to prove our faith in the face of trial?

My dear brothers and sisters ask yourselves this. as we search the scriptures concerning this matter, how is it that we forget that judgement begins at the house of God? 1 Peter 4 17 tells us that before anyone else gets judged, we will get it first. we have to be tried by fire. Incidentally, the Revelation begins with letters to 7 Churches, 5 of which have reprimands and are in danger of our Lord coming against them if they don't get right. Well we know those Churches no longer exist as they did in those days. however we must examine ourselves in the light of those Churches to see which one we are most like. most of us would agree (or at least some) we are like laodicea. if that is the case then we can be sure that we will be chastened because we are loved!we will be chastened before we leave here. i've not seen anyone put those 2 things together. Also i am becoming more and more convinced that the Church of Philadelphia, to which Christ said He would open a door to spare them from the hour of trial which would befall everyone, will be the one to be raptured. Please note that that door was opened for that Church ONLY. Smyrna didn't get that but they didn't have to do anything more than what they were doing. So that scripture of the door being opened can't be used to justify a rapture of all Christians, only some, namely (i think) those who have already been persecuted and continue to be persecuted untill that glorious day. if we assume Philadelphia was representative of 1 out of 7, then a seventh of the Saints would be raptured, not the whole bunch because 5 of the 7 have things which have to be repented of before anyone gets raptured out of here...

How can we consider ourselves rapture ready? the very state of the world, and indeed our own lives screams out in testimony against this notion! the world is as it is not solely because it is wicked, which it is, but because we have not been the light nor the salt as we ought to have been! Brethren we are the standard bearers hence we will be judged first and if our lives don't show God's glory, how can we hope to reach the world?!?! Help us oh God! Are we so blind to our own iniquity that we think the world will be judged (deservingly so) and we won't because we're under grace?!?! Brethren the letter to the Hebrews makes it plain in Chapter 2 and in chapt 10 says that we can't wilflly sin and trod on the Blood of Christ and expect God to do nothing to us especially if even the old and lesser covenant He let no crime go unpunished! if even Christ, as Captain of our salvation though being perfect was perfected through suffering, how much more then will it be for us? brethren grace is not a lisence to act crazy, it is a frightful thing if abused and who among us can say we have no abused it?

Brethren, before we leave here, our faith shall be tried by fire. our Lord may use the tribulation to do this, then again He may not. nonetheless, before the rapture can occur, there must be revival, before that, there must be repentance, for repentance to come at this late hour, there must be recompense for our lukewarmness, there must be fire to refine us. There shall indeed come a fire. let us look first to the refining we so desparately need before we even begin to think about rapture!We have much iniquity in ourselves which must yet be purged. we see iniquity out there in the world, and yet we don't see it in ourselves. that blindness is of the enemy, laodicea is also described as being blind! we need eye salve! perhaps i have misread this all and assumed we see refining before rapture and speak of rapture in that context, if so forgive me. if not, i see many many saints who will be very disappointed, some angry even unto the forsaking of the Faith when they find themselves here in need of further refining. the long and short is this. in Rev 7, the saints or the multitude with white robes are those who have come through much tribulation and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. let us do likewise lest we find ourselves not counted in that number...let us remember also that they way is narrow and few will find it...many, some of whom having done miracles will be refused entry to heaven...yikes, how many miracles have i done? how many have you done?

let us REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE!!!

I wonder if we could just look at these words from 1 Corinthians 15 to get a hint at what might transpire?
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so [b]in Christ shall all be made alive. [/b]
1Co 15:23 [b]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.[/b]
1Co 15:24 [b]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.[/b]
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 [b]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.[/b]
So if the last enemy to be destroyed is death, then the raising up must be at the end like it says in the passage above. Which would coincide with Revelation 20:4-6
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw [b][u] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[/u][/b]
Rev 20:5 [b]But [u]the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.[/u][/b]
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
So now I may be wrong, but it seems as though the resurrection is the rapture is it not?
Look at what Paul finishes off chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians with
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and [b]the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[/b]
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, [b]then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin[/b]; and the strength of sin is the law.
I don't know, but it sure seems as if Paul is saying that death is last enemy to be conquered by Christ, and that at the ressurection of the dead. If so, there could be no pre-trib rapture, because obviously there is still death.
Just some thoughts.

The Resurrection is the Rapture...when this mortal shall put on immortality.

Thank you - Have you seen pictures of Richard Wurmbrand? He has scars all over his body, where his flesh was cut out.

And what do we repent of? Sin. And what is sin? "...for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4

And which law? The Old Covenant - The Ten Commandment Law. Deut 4:13.

Which, is, also, the New Covenant Law written in our hearts and minds. Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Again, Jesus, in Matthew 24, said, that He was coming AFTER the Great Tribulation:

"For then shall be Great Tribulation, such AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, no, NOR EVER SHALL BE...Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven: and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the SON OF MAN COMING in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

2 Peter 3:10 says, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."(Again, please compare to the seventh plague - Rev 16:17-21.)

After He comes, there will be no second chance.

Brethren, we must hold to His Word, and not the traditions of the church, or, the opinions of men.

It is very interesting how so many become very angry when you begin to even question the pre-trib view as if you were attacking them. I suppose any belief can become like that if it is not Spirit taught and learned in the School of God.
But what alarms me is that soo many are so quick to just accept that we will see no hardship or suffering when all throughout the history of the Church men and women have suffered and died for Christ. More alarming is that people don't take the time to see where these teachings came from.
We have the testimony of Scripture foremost of all things, but we also have the testimony of two thousand years of Church History. So I think it is safe to say that alot of times we can guage a teaching by those two witnesses alone.

My passion is to get God's people back to the Word of God, alone.

I agree with you - I, too, am alarmed at the complacency in the church. We say, that, we love Him, but, don't want to suffer for Him.

Do we, really, believe we are in the "time of the end?" Then, we are to be armed with the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.

There is NO LIFE in men's opinions or traditions.

The only life is in the Word of God (made flesh). We are in a spiritual battle with the powers of darkness.

We are to "walk as He walked." And what sword did He wield against the powers of darkness?

Jesus said, "It is written..."

I'm not a 7th day adventist and I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture........

Ingleb,

I was directed to a better interpretation of the 2300 year prophecy. You'll want to see this one!

Do a Google search for: Kevin Ferris Daniel's code.

This is incredible!!!

This is incredible!!

So is this. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

The answers and conclusion of Daniel 8:14

In Christ: Phillip