THE SIN OF FORBIDDING THE GIFTS
It is a sad reality that the God instituted gifts of the Holy Spirit are forbidden in Churches today. This is not only wrong but SIN.
Major : It is SIN to VIOLATE the WORD OF GOD.
Minor : Forbidding the gifts of the Holy Spirit VIOLATE the WORD OF GOD.
Conclusion: Therefore forbidding the gifts of the Holy Spirit is SIN.
\tIt is a sad reality in churches today that the gifts of the Holy Spirit rarely operate. There are many excuses and reasons why people hinder the gifts from being practiced today. In spite of all their reasons it is the believer’s responsibility to earnestly desire spiritual gifts and to reverence God’s Holy Word by being doers of the word and not hearers only.
\tBiblical order is one of the most important elements when dealing with spiritual gifts. Many times leaders lack in exercising proper biblical correction when things are done disorderly; this often leads to disastrous problems in the Church. Some have based their whole doctrinal stance on a bad experience rather than what Scripture teaches. They will bring to their remembrance a situation done out of order, and somehow come to the conclusion that all the God instituted gifts in the Church should be forbidden. Although this seems like the simple solution, is this what Scripture teaches to do? In 1Cor. 14:40 Paul writes, “Let all things be done decently and in order.” So, Paul is saying let all things, (referring back to the spiritual gifts) be done, yet when your in the process of letting it be done make sure it is done in a orderly manner. He did not want them to throw the whole issue out, but rather wanted them to be men in their understanding by dealing with their situations.
Some teach the gifts should only be done at home. This teaching was also formulated because of disorderly conduct in the Church. The problem with this thinking is that the gifts are approved in Scripture to operate in the Church. This type of logic is wrong, “It was done wrong in the Church; therefore, do it somewhere else.” Yet correct logic says, “It was done wrong in the Church; therefore, correct it and do it right.”
Some leaders just do not want to deal with the gifts at all. One of the reasons why leaders do not want to deal with the gifts is simply because of their own ignorance. In 1Cor. 14 it speaks about two particular groups: the unbeliever and the unlearned. It is possible to be a believer, and yet still be ignorant of the gifts. In fact in 1Cor. 12:1 Paul writes, “Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not want you ignorant.” It’s the leader’s responsibility to earnestly study all the Scripture.
A fast growing view in some Churches is the concept of an after glow. The after glow is when they have a Church service and then directly following the service they let the gift believers stay after and pray while the rest of the Church leaves. In this concept they really do not seem to have unity within the Church. They seem to have certain parts of the body separated from the whole group. There are no scriptural examples of this concept being done in the Church.
Another major reason why leaders have forbidden the gifts has to do with fear. Fear prevents leaders from correcting errors in the church. Correcting errors can be
offensive to the one being corrected. It also can at times be intimidating to the leader who many times has to discern the operations of the Spirit versus the operations of the flesh. Sometimes when the gifts are in operation in the Church, it opens the door for all kinds of wackos to show up. Yet, when the counterfeit shows up it is so important that the genuine gifts of God operate the more. So, when dealing with the misuse or abuse of the gifts, the only right way to deal with it is according to Scripture.
I thank you, for this well written article on gifts. The Holy Ghost only works through His gifts in the church. He does not work though the flesh. If gifts are missing power is missing too. His gifts do glorfty Jesus and not man. The only way Jesus will be glorified is through His Gifts. Satan brings fear of gifts to the church to keep it powerless. thanks again
I recently read about a man that had some prayer cloth in the mail. The letter told him to take the cloth rub it on his forehead put it under his pillow and if he had some sick relatives wipe them with it. Then he was told to send it back in a green envelope. (Paraphrase)
I read another article about a man who wore a nice suit drove in a limo and had ten body guards……
Then you have those who say watch this video to see how evil they are…..
For some reason people feel as long as they put this first it gives them an OK to speak evil.
These are just big smoke screens, put all this junk aside and let’s see what SCRIPTURE TEACHES.
Does God change his mind about the gifts? In Rom.11: 29 it says, “The gifts and callings of God are without repentance.” God does not change his mind about his gifts and his callings. There is not the slightest inference that gifts would cease at the end of the apostolic age (Guy Duffield ). Many of those who forbid spiritual gifts teach that when Paul writes, “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1Cor 13:10), he was talking about the complete compiling of Scripture. Wallace comments on this verse in the following way:
Although there can be no objection grammatically (for the adj. would naturally be neuter if it referred to a thing, even if the inferred noun were feminine, such as graphe), it is difficult to see such a notion in this passage, for this view presupposes that (1) both Paul and the Corinthians knew that he was writing scripture, and (2) the apostle foresaw the completion of the NT before the Lord’s return. A more likely view is that “the perfect” refers to the coming of Christ. (Daniel B. Wallace 295)
According to the Scripture there is no evidence that the gifts would cease during the Church age.
Lastly,
Some groups do not think the gifts are important today. They will make comments like, “I just want the greatest gift of love not anything else.” Although their comments sound super spiritual, they do not even understand the least of the gifts and some how always want to claim to have the greatest.” It is a known fact that Scripture teaches that Christians need to have balanced lives. I have personally been exposed to Church groups that tend to focus on one part of the Bible: it is all about worship, it is all about the word, it is all about the gifts, and these extremes go on and on. All that I am trying to say is that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are one necessary part in maintaining a balanced Christian walk.
Some say since the majority of Christian Churches do not practice the gifts, it is an indication that they do not have to allow the gifts. The problem with this thinking is that Christians should not base their obedience to God’s Word on a statistic but rather on what Scripture teaches.\t
Some have claimed because there is not much Scripture written about the gifts it is not important. First of all, the amount written in Scripture does not mean one part is more important that the other. If this were true than the virgin birth would not have much value, but to the contrary it is one of the foundational beliefs of the Church.
\tThe gifts of the Holy Spirit should be practiced regularly today because of the
simple fact Christ instituted them. The gifts are not only for the recipients’ benefit but to
edify others. “As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to
another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God” (1Pet.4:10). “For I long to see
you, that I may impart some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established” (Rom.1:11).
“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal” (1Cor12:7).
Is it sinful to forbid the gifts today? It is sin to violate Scripture. Forbidding the gifts violate Scripture. Therefore it is sin to forbid the gifts. When Paul is dealing with the order of the gifts in 1Cor.14 he goes on to say in verse 37, “If any think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write you are the commandments of the Lord.” Just after Paul claims that his writings are the commandments of Lord, he writes two verses later, “Wherefore brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not the speaking with tongues” (1Cor.14:37). Paul also writes, “Despise not prophesyings” (1Thess. 5:20). So, when despising true prophetic ministry or forbidding Spirit led tongues you are not just coming against man but rather violating the Lord’s commandments. Scripture also says in 1Thess.5:19, “Quench not the Spirit.” Benjamin Keach writes the following:
If this be so, take heed you do not quench the Word or the Spirit of God; which you may be said to do: 1. By abating of the Spirit’s heat in its operations, or by diminishing of lessening the graces and good motions thereof, when the Spirit loses the vigour of his operations, as when zeal decays, convictions wear off, and affection die; this is like slaking the heat, and lessening the burn. (Keach)
\tLastly, when dealing with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, it is very critical that believers rest all final authority upon what Scripture says. When people lean upon their own understanding, they often find themselves on the path of error. Although their intentions may be genuine they can still find themselves in sinful thinking. For wrong theology is sin (Fick 4). Teach, preach and practice what Scripture says and forbid only when Scripture forbids. Where Scripture is silent remain silent. As obedient servants of Christ, earnestly desire Spiritual gifts.
FORBIDDING GIFTS = SIN
I guess you just want some feedback?
THIS IS BIBLE DOCTRINE.
IF YOU AGREE GREAT.
IF YOU DO NOT AGREE PROVE YOUR BELIEF BY THE BIBLE!!
The gifts are without repentance. In other words, you can flow in the gifts and be preaching error, living in adultery, etc. Your heart doesn't have to be right with God to expel devils and heal the sick in Jesus' Name. When we put such emphasis on the imperativity of "Gifts! Gifts! Gifts!" we float into dangerous waters and reveal something of an immaturity we have in the understanding of the things of God. A superficiality. Everybody seems to harp on and on about the gifts. Are they ceased? Should we forbid them? But you don't hear much equal passion when it comes to developing and displaying and thirsting after the unflashy, undazzling [i]fruit
But Jesus said you'd know them by their fruit, and not their gifts. Friend, I say this with complete reverence - I could really care less about the gifts (and this is coming from a Pentecostal), if solid fruit hasn't first been established in the life of the believer. I've seen zealous "newborns" in Christ go after the gifts with an inordinate enthusiasm, argue whether or not they should be in operation, only to fade away in a year or so because they never had an appetite to sprout a root for fruit.
My experience has been instead to go after holiness and righteousness and purity and godly obedience and true Christian humility, self-denial and loving submission to the voice of God and those he has placed in authority over you. This is first and foremost! Oh, soaking oneself in the Word of God is the utmost priority over everything else in the Christian walk, I believe. From here we get power, wisdom, humility, daily inner-man renewal. If we do not take heed to these things first, we can flow in the gifts (forbidden or not) in the wrong spirit. This must take priority over the quest for gifts and whether we should forbid them or not. When your heart is right with God and you are operating in a spirit of charity, and you earnestly ask God, the gifts will supernaturally manifest when needed and the question of forbidding or not will no longer be a question. The Holy Spirit will bear witness, and people will either accept or reject. The people's division over whom to attribute miracles was the same in the time of Christ walking the earth, and things haven't really changed. But, as you seem to have put forth as law, is it a blanket sin to forbid the gifts? Well, I don't believe in all cases.
If I knew that a certain man was living in sin without repentance and moving in the gifts in a congregation I had a pastorate over, I would forbid his ministry in a heartbeat. I wouldn't want an unrepentant fornicator laying hands on a dear sheep God has entrusted to my care and prophesying something over him or her.
Because nobody moves in [i]unforbidden
Brother Paul
Paulwest,
I just wanted to simply present a biblically based view on the gifts. If you want to talk about fruits wait for me and I’ll post a paper on the fruits. All that I did was present a logical paper on the gifts. I’m sorry if I offended you, I’m new to this site and I thought it would nice for someone to see a logical paper on the subject instead of, “I CAN FEEL IT!! GLORY!! GLORY!!”
I am a preacher, and my message is Jesus Christ and him crucified, the blood of Jesus and the old rugged cross of Calvary. I have never preached the gifts in over ten years of preaching, I PREACH JESUS. Don’t get me twisted.
I’m sorry if I offended you
Ah, you haven't offended me, brother!
The point is, gifts often get blown out of proportion. I wanted to lay down some sobriety here. Nothing at all personal against you or your ministry.
Welcome, by the way! This site is a blessing.
Brother Paul
Enid,
I was not going to say anything but, what are you trying to say??
Enid Quote, “I guess, don’t know, just guessing, that most want to be fed the word of God, instead of being fed up.
Are you trying to say my writings are garbage??
I write one article because I thought that’s what you do on this site and it seems like your trying to insult me.
If you want devotional what are you doing in doctrine??
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
In other words, you can flow in the gifts and be preaching error, living in adultery, etc.
Your heart doesn't have to be right with God to expel devils and heal the sick in Jesus' Name.
Acts 19:13-16 13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? 16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. When scripture deals with the name of Jesus, it just doesn’t mean to say his name. This is more of a Hebraic term for in the character/quality of (IN JESUS NAME)
When you say imperativity on just gifts your wrong our imperativite emphasis is on the BIBLE, BIBLE, BIBLE and we float into living waters that reveal something of maturity and understanding of God. A lot of people harp on issues when they are looking for truth.
It is true you might not see people earnestly desiring fruits. Fruits simply come by abiding in the vine. The fruits may seem unflashy to you, but to us the fruits stand out, because we are called to be fruit inspecters. This paper is not just targeting babes.
You talk about babes or you have to do this first..ect When Paul deals with the gifts and it's order he is trying to move them beyond baby stages.
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Are you saying it is in your heart to offend people.
Some people just have to have the last word.
The gifts are without repentance dosen’t mean live a life of sin but rather God does not change his mind about instituting the gifts.
You're right, friend. My exegesis of Rom. 11:29 was not accurate. I did some research and found that "without repentance" has nothing to do with the minister, but with God who gives the gifts. When I saw this verse I had always thought of men like A.A. Allen who moved in the gifts while living in unrepentant sin. I've even heard Leonard Ravenhill make mention of it in this context. And, admittedly, if you read it in [i]that
Your heart doesn't have to be right with God to expel devils and heal the sick in Jesus' Name.
I stand by [i]this
In order to heal the sick and cast out devils in Jesus' Name, I propose that [i]gifts[i]false
Friend, all I am saying is you need to be careful. An over-exuberance concerning gifts [i]does
Can I take your silence in that matter as an agreement?
Brother Paul
"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Mt 7:20-21 (kjv) ;-)
I know people who operate in the "gifts" and they live like arrogant devils. Thank the Lord that we'll be known by fruit and not gifts. All the talk and emphasis on "gifts" is partly the reason why the church is such an embarrassing circus today. I really hate threads like this. All they are designed to do is stir up controversy and generate strife.
Fruit. Forbidding the gifts equates to sin, you say? What about forbidding fruit in lieu of gifts? Pentecostal churchs all throughout the USA last Sunday did not forbid the gifts the Spirit - be it tongues, prophesy, healing, etc. yet all throughout the week and up to now I venture to say those same people are consistently forbidding the fruit of the Spirit from manifesting in their lives.
Do you know why? It's not flashy. Like Dr. Tozer said, fruit doesn't strut. Gifts strut. There's no "oohing" and "ahhing" when fruit blooms in the believer's life. It's too costly, too painful, too self-denying.
I say forget about gifts and seek God's humility. You'll never find a humble and lowly man or woman going on and on about gifts. Christians usually start making neddlesome issues about gifts when something else is deeply lacking in their walks. I'm sorry if this sounds personal - I don't know you - but it seems you are looking to provoke a debate on this forum of just this kind.
Brother Paul
The Lord blesses humble honesty :-D
Our Lord was meek and lowly when He walked the Earth in the flesh. Should His disciples be anything different? I think Horatius Bonar said something to that effect.
For it is the Lord that gives, and it is the Lord that takes away, so blessed be His Name! I am what I am because of His grace alone! And I need His grace more than anything else...His grace alone is sufficient :-D Praise God!!!!
Give me humility Lord...Give me Love for others...Give me You...I desire You!!!!!! May You be my only desire...for You are a jealous God, and I thankyou and praise you for being Jealous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree that its sin to forbid gifts concidering that GOD GIVES THEM. But some people believe that certian gifts still exist today. Some gifts were given to the early church to lay the foundation of the church. Eph 2:20, 2 Corinthians 12:12.The SIN of FORBIDDING the GIFTS. It is sad a reality that the God instituted gifts of the Holy Spirit are forbidden in Churches today. This is not only wrong, but SIN. It is sin to VIOLATE the WORD OF GOD
Anyways, considering that this topic is non-essential for salvation or sanctification I think it may be wise to say "Just serve God".
What of the lost and the dying? What of those in any church who are not told the truth and are self-decieved? Especially those with false assurance.
Amen.Do you know why? It's not flashy. Like Dr. Tozer said, fruit doesn't strut. Gifts strut. There's no "oohing" and "ahhing" when fruit blooms in the believer's life. It's too costly, too painful, too self-denying.
A.A. Allen who moved in the gifts while living in unrepentant sin.
I have A.A. Allens collection of videos, ect. We deal with his son Paul sometimes; but if he moved in the power of God while living in sin, I do not know but one day I guess we will find out.
"But Lord, Lord, we cast out devils and healed the sick in your name!" "Depart from me, workers of iniquity!"
Have you ever thought Gods answer could be, NO
Won't the antichirst be performing great signs and wonders? What about the spirits of the devils in Rev. 16:14 doing miracles? Didn't Pharoah's wizards demonstrate certain signs like Moses?
I do not belive the antichrist/devils/wizards do miracles in Jesus name.
I'm so tired of hearing about gifts-this and gifts-that while true holiness and repentance and self-denial are avoided like the plaque.
This is sad truth, but like I said the gifts of the Holy Spirit is a one element in maintaining a balanced Christian walk.
I think you would agree, “So, when despising TRUE prophetic ministry or forbidding SPIRIT led tongues you are not just coming against man but rather violating the Lord’s commandments. Hey Brother, I would be the first to rebuke FALSE prophetic ministry and flesh/demonic led tongues.
I do not belive the antichrist/devils/wizards do miracles in Jesus name.
Well, allow me to be the bringer of bad news, friend. They [i]do[i]curanderos
This is precisely why we must make sure genuine fruit preceeds gifts. Why else would Jesus warn of the [i]many
Other than this, I agree with everything you've written in the last post.
Brother Paul
enid, Don't worry about 'Evangelist'. Just pray for him, which you probly are.
Like most Pentacostals/Charasmatics they are off balance. Then, like ANY unbalanced people, when you try to help balance them out, they yell and scream.
I did, you probly did, and of course WE ALL DO when God moves in our lives and we 'strech and grow' in the maturity of Christ.
Let Evangelist 'toot his own horn'. The moderators are led by God and if the thread is out of hand they will take the nessecary actions.
Now. To this thread. Just a brief word.
Talk about quenching the gifts. How about quenching the gospel. I think there is more error in the church (yes there can be error in the church) relating to the true gospel than in relating to gifts.
The only problem I see with any kind of gift, Tongues, prophesy, service, mercy, etc, Is that some people say 'no' and that in of itself is wrong. Quenching the heart of the people is a dictatorship authority and should be renounced by the church of Christ.
Christ works within all of us and we should move as God leads and not stop Him, but yet test ALL things and hold to what is good.
we should move as God leads and not stop Him, but yet test ALL things and hold to what is good.
Amen! A phrase of refreshing sobriety. Thank you, sister.
Brother Paul
Well, allow me to be the bringer of bad news, friend. They do.
I was not talking in general; I was talking about in the context of the Scriptures you quoted.
This is precisely why we must make sure genuine fruit preceeds gifts. Why else would Jesus warn of the many who would move in obvious gifts, saying "Lord, Lord", working astounding miracles of healing and driving demons out in the so-called name of Christ...only to be cast from His presence and into eternal hellfire?
GOOD INSIGHT.
The only problem I see with any kind of gift, Tongues, prophesy, service, mercy, etc, Is that some people say 'no' and that in of itself is wrong. Quenching the heart of the people is a dictatorship authority and should be renounced by the church of Christ.
This is what I am saying!!
One of the points I am trying to say is when JESUS says YES to something and Church folks say no; the Church folks ARE WRONG!!!
"Tounges" can not be proven to be supported by God today. Proof being today's interpretation of tounges is BABBLE not languages. Biblical tounges were LANGUAGES. Its the gift of LANGUAGES. You can't say that Christ supports this babble stuff. It ceased with the end of the apostles and the foundation of the church.
___________________________________________
Heres more from an Article:
It is also reasonable to conclude that with the passing of the apostles those gifts which the Bible identifies as the marks of apostleship departed with them. These marks are listed as 'signs, wonders and miracles' (2 Cor 12:12; cf. Acts 14:3). In apostolic times the authority of the apostolic office was not only demonstrated in the miraculous works done by the apostles themselves, but also by the fact that they could confer the gift to do wondrous works to others through the laying on of hands (Acts 8:17; 19:6; cf. 1 Tim. 4:14). Such strong links between the office of apostleship and the more unusual gifts lend strong support to the conclusion of Benjamin Warfield, that 'the extraordinary gifts belonged to the extraordinary offices and showed themselves only in connection with its activities.'
32 Yet there are some difficult questions associated with the weak cessationist position. The first is: which gifts are to be included among the extraordinary and miraculous gifts which have ceased? There is no consensus on the identity of the miraculous gifts. In the previous article we noted that some regarded the gift of prophecy as extraordinary, while others regarded it as a gift that can be found among preachers who excel in Bible interpretation and application.
33 Those who give the first interpretation tend to list prophecy with the gifts that have ceased, while those who follow the second interpretation list it with the Spirit's permanent gifts to the church.
A second question concerns the time of the cessation of miraculous gifts. John Calvin, William Perkins and George Gillespie, who link the miraculous gifts with the earliest period of the Church's development, are open to the possibility of a re-occurrence of extraordinary offices and their gifts in extraordinary circumstances. For them the cessation of these gifts meant that they had ceased to function as an ordinary part of church life, not that they had ceased altogether. But Warfield's argument that these gifts were linked with the apostolic office and therefore ceased with the disappearance of this office is consistent with both history and Scripture. Perhaps the insights of both viewpoints can be combined in the recognition that the gift allowing some of God's people to do extraordinary works for God at their will has disappeared, but that God may still use human agents to do wondrous works in extraordinary circumstances.
To sum up, our discussion has shown that the word cessationism is indeed used with many different shades of meaning, and for this reason the word should not be used without careful definitions and qualifications. We rejected that view of cessationism that would deny the possibility of miracles today. At the same time we noted that there is a wide consensus in Reformed theology that the Spirit's miraculous gifts were not meant as permanent and abiding gifts to the church. If the term cessationism is to have any objective meaning it is probably to be sought in this consensus.
To many people, speaking in tongues is "babbling"...quite sad as far as i'm concerned. I have to just "shake my head" in amazement :-? Confusion abounds, but it is not of the Lord, for He isnot the author of it.
Proof being today's interpretation of tounges is BABBLE not languages
Proof?
What proof? How can you make such a statement? You have a habit of [i]generalizing[i]proove
By making such a statement, you are asserting that Pentecostal missionaries speaking in tongues [i]never once[i]understood
You should really stop generalizing. I propose you study recent church history (and in particular, the explosion of Pentecostal missions) and you'll be staggered at what you find. Study John G. Lake's African ministry. Study Wigglesworth testimonies by the secular press of his day. Maria Woodworth-Etter. I highly recommend you look into the birth and amazing history of Assemblies of God missions. In particular, do a liberal search on Victor Plymire's thrilling adventures in Tibet.
Simply amazing, astounding. You'll be shamed for these posts.
EVANGELIST, Nobody is stopping you from being all that the Lord has designed you to be, though this may happen differently than you expect.
Nobody is stopping you from praying to the Lord in tongues in your private prayers, from gathering with others (where two or three are gathered), from giving or receiving prophetic words to those he brings into your life, whether in the foyer, over the phone, by email...
Anger at the church for squelching the gifts is a misplaced focus, I believe. God is far bigger than the institutionalized church. He IS working to build his Church in all kinds of ways. You don't need the trappings of church to excercise the gifts.
Simeon and Anna (recorded in Luke) were right in the middle of an apostate religious system, and yet God enabled them to be who he called them to be - even within the Temple.
The best thing you can do is submit to the Lord, let him break you, melt you, mold you, and fill you. And as you grow in your surrender to him, you can be sure that he will find a place to use you as he chooses.
And as far as the rest of the church - well, God can handle them. He releases giftings as he chooses, and witholds them as he chooses. He did this all through Israel's history, and is doing it now. He's a master at breaking through human barricades.
Do you believe it?
"He is not willing that any should perish..."
"my Church....the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
Diane
Roadsign,
I am not mad at the Church; I am part of the Church. I wrote this hoping just to help maybe the one that needed some thoughts on the subject.
Oh about the gifts, God has been so faithful to his Word. Proverbs 18:16 16 A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men. I have had the opportunity to preach the gospel to the masses and see them come to the feet of Jesus.
(SAVED HEALED AND DELIVERED)
The Lord has blessed us tremendously; my wife and I are starting another Church plant next month in Perris CA. (Will you all please pray for us (PERRIS CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD)
I remember when I first received a dynamic infilling of the Holy Spirit, I knew it was real (I really did not know chapter, verse) and had a lot of people tell me it was wrong. With that in mind I wish I would have had a paper explaining it was biblical rather than having someone say, “Can you feel it?”
About being broken, that is the life of a servant of God, I have experienced brokenness in ministry many times, I remember once being hooked up to machines for almost 2 years sick, with the Doctors telling my wife I was going to die. Roadsign, I serve the living God, the God that makes a way when there seems to be no way. By his grace I am here today sill preaching Jesus Christ and him crucified.
God Bless
Simeon and Anna (recorded in Luke) were right in the middle of an apostate religious system, and yet God enabled them to be who he called them to be - even within the Temple.
I forgot to tell you GOOD INSIGHT.
God help us to believe that speaking in tongues is speaking in other languages, and not some babbling "charasmatic heart language" that many are deceived into uttering....some secret prayer language???????? Where did this crazy practice originate?
And what's this quote mean? "It ceased with the end of the apostles and the foundation of the chucrh."
Where did you get this information from Gracealone?
richie
I see that the discussion we had in another post has made it to this one.
With all love to you gracalone, and all desire for your well being, i desire a humble and also loving response to this scripture.
[b][color=FF0000]1co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [/color]
When, gracealone, will you comment on this passage of scripture and how it shows that tongues is not always a different language. It is often a heavenly language. Why do you limit the Kingdom of God to Heaven. As i understand it, the Kingdom of God is come, and is in us. What you do not understand has no affect on what is true. What is true is true, your belief and rejection of this truth changes your life, not God or the world around you.
I also wanted to say in accordance with paulwest's last post, that when the "Pentecostal Revival's" began to take place in the late 1800's, it started in a small bible school where the students were challenged to search the bible for the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. They concluded by biblical studies that the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit was tongues. When they prayed for a lady to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, she began to speak Japanese. She could speak nothing but Japanese for 2 or 3 days. The government came in and documented that she could not only speak, but read and write Japanese as well. When people would receive another language like this, they would call it "missions tongues" and took it as a sign that they were to be a missionary in that specific country. Pentecostals don't only speak in the tongues of angels. My friend who is a minister told me a testimony when she preached on the streets of mexico and spoke in tongues when she prayed, as usual, only she thought that she was praying in a heavenly language, as usual, but she was later told that she was praising God in Spanish. She doesn't know spanish and doesn't speak it now.
God is limited to your beliefs in this world. In your own life is he limited to your beliefs and others lives are limited by your lack of belief. Don't let doubt rob you or those around you of what God would have for them. Pruning fruit is the devils work.
Once again, much love to you gracealone, your beliefs are very different than mine. I speak humbly, but confidently in my doctrine. I pray you receive it as such.
1co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
To say that prophecies and tongues have ceased is to say that knowledge has ceased and that christ (that which is perfect) has come. And neither has christ come, nor have any of these three things ceased. Not knowledge, not prophecy, and not tongues. Not until Christ comes back.
Roadsign, I am not mad at the church
Okay, brother, It's just that in Cyberspace caps means shouting, and I "heard" some loud sounds there at the beginning of this thread.
Hey, what's so bad about anger at the church!! It means you are alive, and not a frog in a frying pan, slowly cooking to death without feeling the rising temperature.
Praise God for anger! The challenge for all of us is to channel our anger into spiritual victories, and not be immobilized by the things we are angry at. We look to God's omnipotence, not man's impotence.
"Mercy triumphs over judgment"
Diane
Okay, brother, It's just that in Cyberspace caps means shouting, and I "heard" some loud sounds there at the beginning of this thread.
Sorry, I did not know this or that about cyberspace; this is my first time on cyberspace.
anger at the church!!
Anger at the Church is the Devils job. I’m not called to tear down; I’m called to build up. I use to always point out wrong things and talk about them. Now I try to present solutions to the problems. It’s like my Pastor told me years ago, “Anyone can go to a junk yard and point out cars with problems. But only those who are skillful can fix the broken down cars.” It’s the same with the Church; we need those to STAND for the body of Christ.
The Church is instituted by Christ; it’s his BRIDE.
frog in a frying pan, slowly cooking to death without feeling the rising temperature.
Hey, just call me the frog that is changing the temperature. I’m not an outsider; I’m in the Church making a difference as much as possible.
channel our anger into spiritual victories
My desire is to be motivated by love not anger.
God bless, Josh
I agree that its sin to forbid gifts concidering that GOD GIVES THEM
I’m glad that you agree with the syllogism I presented. So, I will move on to what gifts exist today.
Some gifts were given to the early church to lay the foundation of the church. Eph 2:20, 2 Corinthians 12:12.
Ephesians 2:19-20 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
I have read some comments that you and others have made about this verse. You referred to built in the past tense which is OK (verb particle aorist passive nominative masculine plural) it is in the aorist which means it happened, no comment, it just happened. It is referring back to the saints (having been built upon the foundation.) The essence of these verses is to say, “You were strangers, but now you’re citizens with a foundation.” Just because a foundation was laid, did not mean that the Apostles ceased to labor... In other words after Paul wrote this verse, he was still laboring with his apostolic calling. (It is in the past tense for us, but it was also it the past tense for them)
I am not saying that some apostles did not have a special task, they did, they wrote the WORD OF GOD under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Yet, my point is this, when you refer to the gifts it seems like you miss 1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY (not just Apostles) MAN to profit withal.
2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
Indeed, signs, wonders, and mighty deeds can be signs of an Apostle, but that doesn’t limit it to Apostles only.
Luke 9:49-50 49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50 And Jesus said unto him, FORBID HIM NOT: for he that is not against us is for us.
Mark 16:17-18 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe (pisteo, THE ONE EXERCISING FAITH) ; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Acts 8:5-7 5 Then PHILIP went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
doesn't happen today.
Maybe not in your Church but it does all around the world.
Not that it can't but it won't
You say that God can not or will not allow speaking in tongues today. Can you give me chapter and verse for this? Let me answer this for you NO. Do you want to know why? IT IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE.
"Just serve God".
It is wise to say serve God, it is also wise to obey the Scriptures, because serving God is obeying him. 1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
One reason I like to discuss this topic is because one of my dear friends moved with this same Holy Ghost power and touched millions for Jesus.
What of the lost and the dying? What of those in any church who are not told the truth and are self-decieved? Especially those with false assurance.
I thought you knew GraceAlone that’s my mission.
God Bless, Josh
MattChenier,
I did not know someone else presented THE SIN OF FORBIDDING THE GIFTS.
Allow me to comment briefly on this verse, (I do not know if GraceAlone will agree).
This verse often gets misinterpreted to try to back the doctrine of speaking in tongues.
First of all Paul never intended to use this to back up that doctrine. When it is talking about the tongues of men and angels it was never intended for people to come to the conclusion that there are super intergalactic tongues. This is a (hyperbole) a figure of speech to really express a meaning. He is not saying all these things are possible, he is saying even if these things were possible.
1.\tSpeak with the tongues of men and angels
2.\tUnderstand all mysteries
3.\tAll knowledge
4.\tAll faith
For example, if one had all knowledge and all faith he would be equal with God and that is not possible.
About angelic tongues,
1.\tThere are no approved examples of angels speaking in some heavenly tongue different than known tongues.
2.\tIn Scripture Angels spoke the tongue of the people they were communicating to, not some mysteries language.
I was always taught, “Never hang heavy weights on small threads”
It is true that one of Charles Parham’s students (Agnes Ozman) experienced speaking in tongues on Jan. 1, 1901 to be exact. It soon spread to 34 members of his student body and by 1906 he had up to 10,000 followers. It is also true that some spoke languages that they never knew or learned.
God Bless You, Josh
To the ones talking about Babel,
One thing that may be problematic,
Many teach that every time someone speaks in tongues it has to be a know language or it is Babel.
This was true (as far as a known language) for Acts 2:6-8 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Yet, this appears to be an isolated text in Scripture. Is this how it happens every time?
(Appearance of cloven tongues of fire, everyone speaking in tongues, everyone understanding them in their own language.
No, the tongues in first Cor 14, never mentions cloven tongues, it says it is not directed to man but God, NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM, it can only be two or three at the most in order, it must be interpreted .
14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
So, I want to know when Scripture says no man understands him, why do you all think man has to understand. If I went to MEXICO and spoke Spanish without ever learning the language, are you telling me the entire nation has the gift of interpretation?
The gift of tongues is a spiritual gift, the gift or interpretation is a spiritual gift.
NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM?
Can someone share your insight?
God Bless you all, Josh
If you are truly open to an explaination to this verse I'd be honored that you would consider this...1co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Tounges of angels: He's using a hyperbole. He's saying EVEN IF I SPOKE ALL THE LANGUAGES! Not even if I spoke like angels. He's saying EVEN IF IT WAS POSSIBLE to speak in all the languages- it would mean nothing if he had not love.
Follow this pattern in the text:
1 Corinthians 13
1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. 3 If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.
Do you see the pattern of how he is speaking?
1 co 14
22 So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers.
Where in scripture do Angles speak in a heavenly language? I only see Angles speaking to man with understanding. Just what is a heavenly language? The Holy Spirit teaches the Christ in you with understanding, not in a heavenly language that is needs to be interpreted. I have never seen where Jesus or the Holy Spirit spoke in a heavenly language that needed interpreting to understand, no matter who they were speaking to.
John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
We have the Holy Spirit in us and the second Comforter is Jesus Christ Himself by the Seed Incorruptable of the Father. The Holy Spirit has never spoke to me in anyway but in understanding and truth.
Likewise If I don't know what to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to pray for me, It is not me praying with groanings but the Holy Spirit praying for me, and these groanings are not able to be said or understood by man, but the answering to the Holy Spirits praying are able to be understood at the proper time and place of His choosing.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
The word tongues in scripture is always set forth as languages.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Shall speak with new tongues. Shall speak other languages than their native language. This was remarkably fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, Ac 2:4-11. It existed also in other places. See 1Co 12:10,18.
If I am sharing the Gospel in English and The Holy Spirit wants a Spanish understanding person to hear what the Gospel is, it is the Holy Spirit that will give them understanding in Spanish Not Me speaking in a language I don't know or understand.
The same goes for me speaking in a language (tongue) not naturally learned by me, it is the Holy Spirit Speaking through me as He gives utterance and in His good Pleasure, not mine.
Tongues: tongues
G1100 glossa (26)
glossa gloce-sah' of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):--tongue.
OF TONGUES (3)
1Co 12:10,28
TONGUES (14)
Mr 16:17; Ac 2:3,4,11; 10:46; Ro 3:13; 1Co 13:8; 14:22; Re 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 16:10; 17:15
WITH THE TONGUES (1)
1Co 13:1
WITH TONGUES (8)
Ac 19:6; 1Co 12:30 ...
G2084 heteroglossos (1)
heteroglossos het-er-og'-loce-sos from 2087 and 1100; other- tongued, i.e. a foreigner:--man of other tongue.
OTHER TONGUES (1)
1Co 14:21
I don't see a heavenly language anywhere, especially one that man is speaking to God in. God does not need us to speak in a heavenly language, He knows every thought even before we think it. Let us be built up in the Spirit of Christ that is in us and leave the Spiritual Gifts to the Gifted One, which is, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" and allow the Holy Spirit to use these Gifts for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ and He sees fit.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1 Corinthians 12:11-12 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
In Christ: Phillip
Quote:
"""""Tounges of angels: He's using a hyperbole. He's saying EVEN IF I SPOKE ALL THE LANGUAGES! Not even if I spoke like angels. He's saying EVEN IF IT WAS POSSIBLE to speak in all the languages- it would mean nothing if he had not love."""""
Amen, In The Old and New Testament, The Angles always spoke with understanding to whom they were speaking. Why would we be any different in speaking the tongues of Angles. They spoke to all in understanding.
In Christ: Phillip
Although I refrain from using the term, “Heavenly language” because it’s not biblical, it doesn’t mean I don’t believe that there is not a spiritual language that reaches the heavens. A more biblical term may be praying in the spirit. 1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayed, but my understanding is unfruitful.
It is true Jesus did not speak in tongues but remember he said, John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Some of the gifts, (like tongues) came when Jesus went away.
As far as the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues, he is the one that gives the utterance. Acts 2:4 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. As far as needing interpretation to understand, 1. Back to vs. 14 my understanding is unfruitful 2. 1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; AND LET ONE INTERPRET. 3. It is a gift. 1 Corinthians 12:10b to another the INTERPRETATION of tongues:
Mark 16:15-17 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Some always like to say this is all fulfilled. It would be more accurate to say, the fulfillment started in Acts but its still being fulfilled today.
Let’s leave the gifts to the gifted one. This comment seems to push the responsibility back to God.
Same logic.
1.\t1 Peter 1:16 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. No. Let’s just leave the holiness to the Holy One.
2.\tLuke 6:38 38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. No. Let’s just let the true Giver give.
3.\t1 Corinthians 12:31 - 13:1 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. No. Let’s just leave the gift to the Gifted One.
As far as a heavenly language, if this is one’s definition of an unknown tongue/ heavenly language, 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue SPEAKETH NOT UNTO MEN, BUT UNTO GOD; FOR NO MAN UNDERSTANDETH HIM; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. than it is possible that I still agree.
Sometimes it may just be terminology, For Example Trinity is an unbiblical term, yet it is universally accepted. Heavenly language is an unbiblical term only accepted in some groups.
God Bless Josh
Quote:
""It is true Jesus did not speak in tongues but remember he said, John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Some of the gifts, (like tongues) came when Jesus went away.""
Tongues are not the reason the Holy Spirit would come. This is the reason the Holy Spirit came.
John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
That we shall know that Jesus Christ is in us and we are in Him and together we are in God The Father. WE know have the Nature of God birthed in us, that is the reason Jesus told Nicodemus we must be born again to see the things of the the Kingdom of God. This is not the Word of Faith teaching of the name it and claim it crowd. This is the truth of the Word of God.
Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
WE don't need tongues when we have Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in us. He The Holy Spirit will teach us all things Christ has spoken and bring it to our memory.
John 14:26-27 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
There are no tongues needed since the HOLY SPIRIT has come. Now tongues are the least of the Gifts and only used when the Holy Spirit uses them to make the Gospel plain to different language speaking people that the Gospel is plain, understanding the Jesus Christ is the Son of God and The Holy Spirit because of a believing person has now come into them forever, and they now have The Spirit of Christ birthed in them and Jesus Christ and the Father now make Their abode with them.
John 14:22-27 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and (((make our abode with him.))) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
It is the Father speaking to us always, the words Jesus speaks are not His by the Fathers'. The Father uses His Holy Spirit in us to reveal truth and the mystery hid from all ages, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."
Again: Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
This is our life, not the Gifts of the Spirit. Leave the use of them to Him, for it is in His Good pleasure that make for the building up of the Body of Christ. Since Pentecost, He is the One that does the Building by the Christ that is in us. He is in us forever. The only gift we need is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Who is the Gift and who is the Gifted One?
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
The Gift of the Holy Spirit and the Gift of Himself born again in those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God.
Ephesians 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Who is the One that disperses these Gifts as He pleases? Ephesians 4:20-23 But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 1 Corinthians 12:11-13 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, (Christ)whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (The Holy Spirit)
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
It is the Holy Spirit the disperser of the Gifts. Not man.
In Christ: Phillip
Christinyou,
if angels didn't have a heavenly language and their language was our language, then why would paul say tongues of men and of angels, and not just tongues. This clearly shows a difference between the two.
And on the spiritual gifts, if you believe the operation of gifts is not up to you, then you are definitely in a misunderstanding. The operation of spiritual gifts is essential to edification and always present in a mature and spirit filled church body.
When bible says, if i speak in tongues, i edify myself, why would tongues be considered unimportant? Sounds very important to self edification to me.
And why is it that people that don't speak in tongues don't operate in the gifts? Healing, prophecy, miracles, the gift of tongues, interpretation of tongues, discerning of evil spirits, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, and faith. These are special gifts which operate in extraordinary ways in the lives of spirit filled believers.
Comment) Tongues are not the reason the Holy Spirit would come.
The Holy Spirit came for many purposes defined all through the Scripture. It is plain to see ONE of the reasons he came was to give gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as HE (the Spirit of God) will. I am not saying this is the only reason he came, yet I am saying when he came he definitely did give gifts. (Including tongues)
Comment) This is not the Word of Faith teaching of the name it and claim it crowd.
I don’t know if you are implying what I am presenting doesn’t agree with your Church (Word of Faith) doctrines. Or maybe some Word of faith group offended you. I am just trying to present biblical teaching.
Comment) There are no tongues needed since the HOLY SPIRIT has come.
If this statement were true; we would have never had a need for tongues at all. In Acts 2 we see the outpouring of the Spirit. In other words they already had the Holy Spirit and were still speaking in tongues all through the book of Acts...
Comment) This is our life, not the Gifts of the Spirit.
My life is loving Jesus, what can I say? There is something about loving him. THIS IS MY LIFE!!! About the gifts, they are one element in maintaining a balanced walk.
Comment) Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
I don’t know why you have these posted here. This is referring to how the Pharisees were twisting the law to benefit themselves.
To be honest, I really did not see your point in most of your comments.
Sorry.
God Bless, Josh
1 Corinthians 14:14
14 For if I pray in a unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Spirit:
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.
In other words I can repharse this to say... "If you pray in an unknown tounge ...Sure you are praying but you don't make any sense."
In context with the next verse...
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.
Jesus knew we would need a Comforter, not to be used by man but to give man understanding of who He was, This Jesus Christ the Son of God. Why would we need a Comforter, Teacher? Man on his own cannot know or learn the things of God. How long did Israel a special chosen people set aside from the rest of creation? The what did they do? If the rest of the world was chosen instead of Israel, they could not have done any better. It was not the people but God who needed to be The One that gave His Creation an understanding of Who He is. Our God is a Lamb. He wants us to be lambs. We can try as we will and still we can never be what God is unless He gives us an infusion of Himself. A father brings forth offspring that are like him. A created being is not offspring. It takes offspring to be like a Father. That is all that God has wanted from when ever He decided He wanted children in His House. Gifts are not the important part of our life. It is being offspring of the Father By The Son Jesus Christ. If we had these gifts on our own we would use them against each other to get what we want and our pride would overpower the week ones. Wow, sounds like a world I know of. The gifts of the Spirit are in His keeping and He uses them without hippocracy for the building up of the body of Christ. Man uses these gifts to build up himself. If tongues are building up the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, then everybody needs to speak in tongues. That is why the Holy Spirit uses the Gifts as He pleases because man cannot be trusted with the same power. I must decrease the Christ may increase, the more I decrease the more Christ can be manifest through me. Trust Christ and He will be the Gifted One that the Holy Spirit can use in the believer to "present every man in Christ". I may be rambling but the Christ in you is the Gifted One and this is our need. To seek Him First and allow all the rest to come by His strength and power in truth produced through the Holy Spirit and His teaching and His use of the Gifts which will be perfect.
Why would man want to speak in an unknown tongue? Pride? Ya think? There is no pride in the Gifts that are used by God through the Holy Spirit by Christ Jesus.
Why would man want to argue against tongues? Jealousy? Maybe? It is God who searches the Heart and the One who has planned for all contingencies of the weaknesses of man. Trust in the Lord with all your Heart and all these things will be added unto you.
In Christ: Phillip
Thats pretty funny. No I'm not jealous- as a matter of fact I'm really good thanks. :) lol. The bible says to renew my mind and reason... not put it on the shelf. Speaking in an unknown "language" wouldn't cause any edification. 1 Corinthians 14:26, "Let all things be done for edification."Why would man want to argue against tongues? Jealousy? Maybe?
1 Corinthians 14:15
"What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."
Its better off for most not to be caught up in this charismatic stuff. Its really sad to see the leaders of this charismatic group people like TD Jakes, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers, even Peter Popoff. The world would be better off without thier doctrines. These big leaders are heretics.
By the way the doctrine of the "second blessing" would include the idea of carnal christianity wouldn't it? I'm just curious as to what you guys think about these things.
from gracealone
The bible says to renew my mind and reason... not put it on the shelf. Speaking in an unknown "language" wouldn't cause any edification.
1co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown TONGUE edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
clearly a lack of knowledge
also,
1co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown TONGUE speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
This is proof that there is a difference between the gift of tongues which is one of the gifts of the spirit (tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, healing, faith, miracles, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, discerning of evil spirits) and the personal prayer tongues a believer receives when he is baptized in the Holy Ghost. The gift of tongues is a heavenly language, if it was not, why would there need to be a supernatural gift of interpretation??? And when he speaks in this heavenly language "no man understandeth him." When a believer ues the gift of tongues, God is speaking to the church in a heavenly language through a believer. Because the message God gives is in a heavenly language, there must also be a gift of interpretation to translate the message from God.
When a believer uses their personal prayer tongues, which every believer who is baptized in the Holy Ghost receives, they are speaking to God. Not to men. They don't understand it, and those around them don't understand it. But they don't need to understand it, because the Holy Spirit prays through them to God the Father. This is where the believer himself or herself is edified by their tongues. When a message in tongues is given to a church body and one interprets the message in tongues, the whole body is edified.
This is why the scriptures on tongues seem to contradict each other on what tongues are all about. Its because their is the gift of tongues, and the personal prayer tongues a believer receives when they are baptized in the Holy Ghost. Have you never spoken in tongues, then you've never been baptized in the Holy Ghost. Look at all the times the believers in the book of acts recieve the baptism in the Holy Ghost, what evidence is there that accompanies it? Tongues, and there is not always an interpretation, and there is not always foreigners of another language around to be edified. Thats because they are edifying themselves.
This is proof that your theory on tongues only being spoken to be a sign to those of another language is false, because this says that the believer is not speaking to men, but to God and no man understandeth him.
Clearly the answers are in the bible. You just have to be led to find them :) Praise His name. Jesus Christ
Who art thou Lord? It is me the Holy Spirit, whom thou persecutest!
Gracealone, you twist a make the scriptures say what you believe. You don't let the scriptures twist and make you believe. Submit to the Truth.
Where in God's name is there a personal prayer tongue in the scriptures. What benefit would could this possibly have. It says when you pray, pray with understanding. Paul says he would rather pray a few words with understanding rather than 10,000 that no one understands, even the one making the noises. Paul is not making it ok to pray in an unknown tongue or heavenly language that no one understands, he is saying a person could spend 45 minutes speaking something without understanding and would be Better of if he only spoke 2 or 3 with understanding.
Where does it say you get this heavenly blessing when you receive the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
The Holy Spirit reveals truth about Jesus Christ and who He is in us. Not something that no one understands. John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Comforter, Teacher: From the Father by the prayer of Jesus Christ. John 14:19-21 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Jesus Christ will manifest Himself to us and the Holy Spirit will teach us who He is by the renewing of our minds. John 14:22-27 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Renew our minds to the truth and speak truth to each other and all that the Father would send that they might be saved. Not speak in what ever you call it, and no one understand. I cannot speak to a Russian without an Interpreter that speaks Russian and English. How can anyone possible miss this as the statement on tongues.
John 15:15-16 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
How do we give it to others? John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning.
This is our inheritance in Christ Jesus which God planned from the before the beginning of time on this earth. Read and Understand.
Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
In Christ: Phillip
you twist a make the scriptures say what you believe. You don't let the scriptures twist and make you believe.[i]Submit to the Truth.[/i]
This carries a lot of 'authority', doesn't it?
Does one grasp or understand ALL the Truth in one's lifetime? If so, does one live out ALL the Truth all the time?
When we read,
[color=0000CC]1 Corinthians 13:8-10
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.[/color]
Is this Truth applicable to us?
[color=0000CC] Philippians 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of [b]all
All things? Even gifts?
Let's do submit to the Truth, to the only Truth: Christ and His love, grace, and humility.. let's do!
In context with the next verse...
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.
Ding, Ding, Ding, Winner!!!
I agree 100 percent. Paul says I am not going to just pray with tongues. I would agree if someone only prayed in tongues it would seem totally unbalanced. So, If he just prayed in unknown tongues, his understanding would be unfruitful. Paul goes on to say, what am I going to do about this? Well, he is not just going to pray in tongues; he is going to pray in his known tongue also that his understanding will be fruitful. HE IS GOING TO BE BALANCED.
1. If he speaks out in tongues; it needs to be spoken out with interpretation.
2. If he prays in tongues; he with also pray in his known tongue.
3. If he sings in the spirit; he will also sing in his known tongue.
Why would man want to speak in an unknown tongue? Pride? Ya think?
Did you ever think maybe because it is biblical?
Why would man want to argue against tongues? Jealousy? Maybe?
Did you ever think maybe they are just standing for what they believe?
Speaking in an unknown "language" wouldn't cause any edification.
1 Corinthians 14:6 6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, EXCEPT I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
Sometimes it is what follows the tongues that brings tremendous edification.
Caught up follwing Benny Honn, TD Jake or Joe Meyer whoever?? I do not like to talk about Benny Honn and all those other guys. I know Paul, Peter, John, James do you know what Iam saying.
I definitly belive that Christians can be carnal.
Yes I belive that there are dynamic infillings after being saved. There are all kinds of Scripture to back this. Yet, let me give you one thought that might shed light. Ephesians 5:18 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; These that Paul are speaking to are told to be filled with the Holy Spirit, they are already saved, but they can still not be filled with the Spirt by not doing what they are told to do, and doing what they are told not to do,
Would you agree? If this is a qustion to bring up Calvinistic doctrines, go ahead I’m probably more Calvanistic than you.
God Bless, Josh
GRACEALONE,
Can you share your view on Second blessing doctrine, or if some people have dynamic infillings of the Holy Spirit after being saved. Like in, (Acts 4:31 they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.) ECT.
I hope we can discuss this without everyone saying, “Jesus is more important”.
I am sure we would both agree JESUS IS MORE IMPORTANT...
Galatians 2:20 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
God Bless,
Evangelist
In the early church, the apostles saw to it that all of the members received the baptism in the holy spirit. And they would speak with tongues when they received the baptism in the holy spirit, read acts and the times people were baptized in the holy spirit if you don't believe.
If you think there is no difference between the gift of tongues and personal prayer tongues, then why does paul say..
1co 12:30 Have * all the gifts of healing? do all speak * with tongues? do all interpret ?
This shows that not all people speak in these tongues. But in the acts, whenever people were baptized in the holy ghost they spoke in tongues.
So, there must be 2 separate "tongues" that paul is talking about. because when paul said, do all speak with tongues, he was talking about the gift of tongues. But when 120 people spoke with tongues at pentecost and several other times entire groups and churches would receive tongues with the baptism in the holy ghost, how could you say that these are not two separate "tongues" that paul is speaking about.
Please don't assume without understanding. See why I know that he is not saying that this is not what you should do.1co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown TONGUE edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. clearly a lack of knowledge
Listen to Paul on the matter: 1 cor 14
"13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."
How then- if toungues are for believers would Paul say this?
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;
I agree 100 percent. Paul says I am not going to just pray with tongues. I would agree if someone only prayed in tongues it would seem totally unbalanced. So, If he just prayed in unknown tongues, his understanding would be unfruitful. Paul goes on to say, what am I going to do about this? Well, he is not just going to pray in tongues; he is going to pray in his known tongue also that his understanding will be fruitful. HE IS GOING TO BE BALANCED.
1 Corinthians 14:15
What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.
Thats not what he said his conclusion was. The point is here that He is going to speak and pray in only a known language. That was the conclusion- if it was a balance between speaking in an "unknown language" and a real language- then he would have said so.
Ephesians 5:18
"18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"
Read John MacArthur on the subject of Eph 5:18:
And the contrast in that verse, as you see it there, "Do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit," it's quite dramatic and remarkable contrast. If you just pick up the book of Ephesians and read that, you might stop and say, "Well why in the world would he contrast drunkenness with being filled with the Spirit? What is the point here? When a person is drunk, they've lost control of themselves and they wander around in an out of control kind of behavior. Is he saying I want you to be out of control but not by wine but by the Holy Spirit? What is he saying here? I want you to yield up the control of your faculties to the Holy Spirit rather than to wine? Why make such a comparison?
Well the answer is found in a bit of the historical context. Let me give you a little bit of background. Ephesus, of course, was in Asia Minor and was dominated by Hellenistic or Greek culture called Hellenistic from the Greek word hellene which means Gentiles. But the Greeks believed that the great god Zeus, they, of course, had a pantheon of gods and Zeus was one of the formidable ones, they believed that the great god Zeus had given birth to a son. And that it had occurred in a very unusual way. And I'll give you a little of the background. They believed that the child was snatched from the womb of its mother, and its mother's name in Greek mythology is Semele. And the child was snatched from the womb of Semele while Semele was being incinerated because she got too close to the burning glory of Zeus. I don't know how Zeus produced this child in her in the mythology but in some way he did it without destroying her but when she sought to get too close to him, she became incinerated and in order to preserve the child of Zeus, the child was snatched out of her womb during her incineration. The child-god who had not yet come to full term was then sown into the thigh of Zeus and kept there until time to be born. That stretches your imagination.
So here is Zeus with this fetus in some point of formation sewn into his thigh. The infant god destined by Zeus to be the world ruler was born eventually out of the thigh of Zeus and then kidnapped by the envious Titans. Titans were called in Greek mythology sons of earth. They took the child, the Titans did, this child of Zeus, tore the child limb from limb, cooked it and ate it. But Zeus found the heart, according to the mythology, revived it and it was reborn as Dionysius. Now if you ever study Greek mythology you come across the name Dionysius quite frequently. Zeus found the heart, swallowed it and eventually the heart formed into the personality of Dionysius and was reborn.
Zeus then blasted the Titans with lightning, incinerating all of them from whom...whose ashes all of humanity came. So that's their creation story. Dionysius was then really someone beyond humanity because all of humanity just rose out of the ashes of the Titans and Dionysius along with Zeus was a god.
Dionysius then, according to Greek mythology, spawned a religion, a religion of ecstasy, ectasia(?) and emotionalism. And the Dionysian cult, this religion of ecstasy and emotionalism, this frenzied kind of religion, saturated the Greek and Roman world. The Dionysian cult was a debauched form of worship and a popular, a dominant form.
The worshipers committed atrocities with human organs. They engaged in orgies of sexual perversion, along with music and dancing and feasting. But there was one common element to all of the Dionysian debacle and that was drunkenness...drunkenness. In fact, if you ever circulate in the Middle East or in the ancient Roman world, you will see Dionysius associated with grapes. When there is a statue or a tribute to Dionysius, some monument to Dionysius, it is always marked out by clusters of grapes because he became known as the god of wine.
The Greek name of Dionysius became in the Roman language, Latin, Bacchus. And Bacchus is the Roman god of wine. When people engaged in these unbelievable drunken brawls, they were called Bacchanalian feasts. And if you've studied any of that, that's a familiar term even today. Take your dictionary out and look up Bacchanalia and it will say a drunken orgy.
The key element then, the key element in pagan worship was drunkenness. That's how...that's how they got their inhibitions out. That's how they dealt with their normal restraint. That's how they dealt with normal feelings of guilt. That's how they dulled their senses sufficiently to quiet their conscience. That's how they dispelled their anxiety and fear and guilt over such vile behavior as they engaged in. That's how they induced a kind of giddiness that substituted for real joy and just catapulted them in to this kind of horrible behavior. They did it by getting drunk and losing all their inhibitions.
So they believed that drunkenness was simply the door into ecstasy, the door into religious expression. And at such drunkenness elevated the believer, the worshiper, to total communion with the deities. So drunkenness was the key to worship, to communion to the deities. The more inebriated they were the more likely they were to get in to the ectasia(?) and enthusiasmos(?), two Greek words, ecstasy and enthusiasm, that spoke about these horrifying often demonic kind of activities.
Now go back to verse 18, it takes on different meaning in the light of that context. He is saying to them do not get drunk with wine, all that does is produce dissipation. All that does is take you down. If you want to commune with God, be filled with the Spirit. Our religion is not brought about in its fullness and its richness and its reality by drunkenness but rather by the filling of the Spirit. Don't be filled with alcohol, be filled with the Holy Spirit. Literally, be being kept continuously filled by the Spirit.
If you want true religion, if you want true communion with God, if you want true worship to take place, if you want godly living, if you want to please God, then you must be filled with the Spirit...not controlled by alcohol but controlled by the Holy Spirit. The parallel to this is in Colossians 3:16 where instead of saying be filled with the Spirit, Paul says let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly because that's really the same thing. When the Word of Christ dominates your life and you respond in obedience to it, it's the same as being controlled by the Holy Spirit, of course, who is the author of Scripture. Obedience to the Word is being filled with the Spirit. It's not some kind of mystical experience. It's not some kind of ecstatic thing. It's not something that comes over you and catapults you into some unconscious behavior. It's not being knocked over into a dead faint, as you see so often on television. It's not launching off into some ecstatic speech. It's not going out of yourself or being beyond control. It simply is to be continuously controlled by the Spirit who does it through the Word and that means we are obeying the truth.
Now look at verses 19 and 20. "Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord." Let me tell you something. Where the Spirit of God controls a life, where there's a life devoted to the Word of God and obedience to the Word of God, there is praise...that's the first thing. There is praise. And I suppose obviously we could conclude that a worshiping life, a praising life comes from a heart that is filled with joy. It's this simple. You give me an obedient person, obedient to the Word of God, I'll show you a positive, happy, praising, worshiping person whose heart is filled with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, who is singing and making melody in his heart to the Lord, and I'll show you a person who can get along with anybody because they're lost in wonder, love and praise because they're worshiping the Lord.
Read the whole thing [url=http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/1943.htm]HERE.
I'd still like to hear what you guys think of "carnal christianity"
These big leaders are heretics.
just what we all need, a 100 plus post thread arguing about glossolalia.
Kristy, you know what they used to do to "hereticks" in the old days?
They'd put 'em before a group of judges, and give them a chance to repent from their heretical ways, and if they didnt, they'd tie 'em to a pole, gather up a mess of oak wood, and burn 'em at the stake.
All the fun's gone out of religion, hasn't it?
neil
Anyways, I still will not deny that the doctrines taught by Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers, and TD Jakes are heretical. Benny says there are nine parts in the Trinity (three bodies, souls, and spirits)
- Joyce says that if you don't believe that Christ went to hell for three days that you can't be saved- TD Jakes denies the Trinity. To deny that these are heresies are to deny the faith.
I'm not saying I would burn them... I don't know why you've come to that conclusion. The punishment they get is up to God.
Deuteronomy 32:35
"Vengeance is Mine, and recompense;Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.’"
My Resources:
http://www.discernment.org/faithhealers/benny.htm
http://www.afcministry.com/Joyce_Meyers.htmJoyve Meyers:
"There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place. He became your substitute and took all the punishment you deserve. He bore all your sins. He paid the dept you owe...Jesus went to hell for you. He died for you. He paid for your sins." (Page 43, 1996-Edition, "The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make")
http://www.afcministry.com/T_D_Jakes_Examined.htmTD Jakes: "The Trinity, the term Trinity, is not a biblical term, to begin with. It's a theological description for something that is so beyond human comprehension that I'm not sure that we can totally hold God to a numerical system. The Lord said, "Behold, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one, and beside Him there is no other." When God got ready to make a man that looked like Him, He didn't make three. He made one man. However, that one man had three parts. He was body, soul and spirit. We have one God, but He is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration." (Click Here for this information) This is the same as what the United Pentecostal Church International states concerning their doctrines on who God is and their beliefs concerning the Trinity.
i guarantee you if you talked to these people about their doctrines you would find your opinions about their doctrines are out of context and poorly educated. Denying the trinity?! Thats a joke!
I think your teaching is false gracealone. You take the power and livelihood out of the church with these doctrines.
What do i think carnal christianity is?
I think carnal christianity is when a person lives by their own selves and not by the spirit. I think a carnal christian uses their own wisdom and abilities to do the work of the ministry. A work which is not meant for human ability, but supernatural ability.
But ye shall receive POWER after that the holy spirit has come upon you.
That word power is the greek word dunamis and means strenght, power, or ability.
You lack the working of the Holy Spirits fulness in your life, and you lack much ability. Because even christ didn't do his ministry by his own strength, what makes you think you can?
Thats carnal christianity, a church that, without the holy spirits presence, wouldn't be changed at all. If you took the Holy Spirit out of your church, would anything even change? or would anybody even notice? Thats a carnal church, a church that does it themselves without the power of the Spirit.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and GREATER works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
This says "HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME" not "you 12 apostles." "HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME"
Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mr 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Once again, "THEM THAT BELIEVE"
Any believer can do these things, if they BELIEVE You don't do them, because you don't believe you can.
What doctrine have I said that take the power out of the church? The power of the church is Christ.I think your teaching is false gracealone. You take the power and livelihood out of the church with these doctrines.
The whole taking up serpants thing is addressed in the verse before that one.
Mark 16
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Quote:
""Ephesians 5:18 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; These that Paul are speaking to are told to be filled with the Holy Spirit, they are already saved, but they can still not be filled with the Spirt by not doing what they are told to do, and doing what they are told not to do,
Would you agree? If this is a qustion to bring up Calvinistic doctrines, go ahead I’m probably more Calvanistic than you.
God Bless, Josh""
This is not an admonition for the believer to be filled with the Holy Spirit by his own works or thoughts. What does a man have to do with the filling of the Holy Spirit? This is an admonition not to use strong drink for anything pertaining to spreading the Gospel or working out problems with family or friends. This is specifically spelled out in the rest of Gal 5.
But be filled with the Spirit. The Holy Spirit. How much more appropriate to Christians than to be filled with the spirit of intoxication and revelry! Let Christians, when about to indulge in a glass of wine, think of this admonition. Let them remember that their bodies is and should be displayed to others as the temple of the Holy Ghost, rather than a receptacle for intoxicating drinks. Was any man ever made a better Christian by the use of wine? Was any minister ever better fitted to counsel an anxious sinner, or to pray, or to preach the gospel, by the use of intoxicating drinks? Let the history of wine-drinking and inteperate clergymen answer.
This has nothing to do with what we do in the infilling of the Holy Spirit but how we should treat that infilling. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If we are not full of the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Jesus Christ we are not saved. Check out the word "filled" in the Greek.
4137. pleroo
Search for G4137 in KJVSL
plhrow pleroo play-ro'-o
from 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply
It has nothing to do with what we do, the filling is already accomplished, executed in the office of the Holy Spirit, finished the task by the answered prayer of Jesus Christ to the Father. John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
The Holy Spirit will not overrule a believers decision to not act like he is filled with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is a Lamb and will act like a Lamb, it is our responsibility to obey Christ and listen to the Holy Spirit, but we cannot get anymore of the Holy Spirit than we already received at our new birth, just like Jesus Christ that is now our new life, we cannot get anymore of Him either, we can know that we now have the mind of Christ and renewing it to His mind is the Work of the Holy Spirit, our Teacher and Comforter in Union with the Comfort of Jesus Christ and His Yoke that is in us.
In Christ: Phillip
Gracealone wrote
What doctrine have I said that take the power out of the church? The power of the church is Christ.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the holy ghost has come upon you,"
The Holy Ghost is the power of the church to do ministry. This is clear and blatantly obvious in the entire N.T. The Holy Spirit gives gifts severally as He wills.
Why do you think the Holy Spirit is here? Its not just to sanctify and teach us, but also to confirm Christ and His Word through us by signs and wonder.
1co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
This is the only sign that will check all other signs,
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
"The sign of the prophet Jonas," means the sign or evidence which was given to the people of Nineveh that he was from God--to wit, that he had been miraculously preserved, and was therefore divinely commissioned. The word Jonas is the Greek way of writing the Hebrew word Jonah, as Elias is for Elijah.
This is the test of all signs, evidenced in the people that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and from The Living God our Father, that He was miraculously resurrected unto ascension and coming back in the believer, and this was the Plan of God the Father Divinely Commissioned and finished on the Cross. Anything else is of the devil.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
You see there are Heavenly and earthly signs and wonders, the Heavenly ordained by God the earthly by Satan.
Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
2Cr 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Hbr 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
By Satan an angle of light, by God through the Holy Spirit by the Christ that is in us.
Test all things, In Christ: Phillip
The problem that most people have when sharing different views about bible doctrine is terminology. When you say baptized in the Holy Spirit are you referring to what the Apostle Paul means when he uses the term? Or are you referring to the modern classical Pentecostal view by like Charles Parham? When you speak to the Universal Church (Christians from all different backgrounds) you can not just assume everyone knows the terms within your own group.
Yes it is true that the apostles wanted people to be baptized in one body by the Spirit. This happens at salvation. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit ARE WE ALL baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. It is also true that the Apostles wanted believers to receive a dynamic infilling (baptism of the Holy Spirit) after being saved. This is evident through the whole book of Acts.
>This is not an admonition for the believer to be filled with the Holy Spirit by his own works or thoughts.
Eph, 5:18b BE FILLED with the Spirit. This is not a suggestion, it is a direct command. (Verb imperative passive 2nd person plural. Not only does Paul tell you what to do but he also tells you how it might look; just keep reading the text. Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; 21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. ECT
Let me ask you a question. I will talk in Pentecostal terms for the sake of understanding. If someone in your Church receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and never shows up to your Church again (because they decided to be filled with wine, fornication, stealing, killing) are they still Spirit filled? Oh, they spoke in tongues, they might even show up once in a while and shout AMEN; but are they Spirit filled? Can someone who at one time received the baptism quench the Spirit to the point where they are not filled? KJV Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. What if you do not obey Gods Word?, “Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that YE PRESENT YOUR BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE, HOLY, ACCEPTABLE UNTO GOD, which is your reasonable service. I do not care how much a person has spoken in tongues. If they live a life of SIN: THEY ARE NOT SPIRIT FILLED, Oh they might believe in the biblical doctrine of being Spirit filled but that doesn’t mean anything.
Opps, I will use common terms, If someone has the Spirit in your Church, has all the fruits of the Holy Spirit studies the Word, confessed Christ as Lord and Savior and then decides to be a person who lies all the time, is very lustful, and always in the flesh. Are they Spirit filled? If they live a life of SIN: THEY ARE NOT SPIRIT FILLED.
Christians that do not practice what the Bible teaches are the carnal Christians.
I used the Eph 5:18 to show that there is more than just having the Spirit but the possibility of being filled. There is a difference from having the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit comes at conversion when you are born again. This is the down payment of our inheritance. Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
This is what it means to just have the dwelling of the Spirit.
When I use the term dynamic infillings of the Holy Spirit, I mean after someone is already saved and has the Holy Spirit, yet, they receive other infillings after conversion.
You said if you are not full of the Spirit you are not saved; and then you quoted a Greek word. If you want to take a word that can mean different things in different contexts, do me a favor don’t add a word in a verse that is not there, and tell me to look it up. You look it up and show me the word filled/full. The Greek words in the context are, “pneuma theo oikeo” “The Spirit of God dwell”. Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God DWELL IN YOU. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The point is this, there is more than the Spirit dwelling in someone, there is also the possibility of dynamic infillings of the Spirit.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and BEGAN TO SPEAK WITH OTHER TONGUES, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, AND THEY SPAKE THE WORD OF GOD WITH BOLDNESS.
Acts 13:52 And the DISCIPLES WERE FILLED WITH JOY, ANE THE HOLY GHOST.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, HAVE YE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT (The dynamic infilling) SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, we have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (Dynamic infilling)
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they SPAKE IN TONGUES, AND PROPHESIED.
You can see in these Scriptures that these dynamic infillings of the Holy Spirit happened to people who were already saved. If they were already filled there would be no reason to add, “And they were filled with the Holy Spirit and…….”
About the Comforter, Yes he does dwell in us and he abides in us forever. Like I said, not just to dwell in us. But to fill us will dynamic infillings for ministry.
About Matthew 12:39-40 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to IT, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The adulterous generation was their generation and they received their sign. A lot of groups try to say we must be evil because we seek signs. We don’t seek signs; we preach the gospel and signs follow us. Some will say we don’t need signs anymore we see that JESUS is the sign. The problem with this thinking is signs happened all through the New Testament after the sign of Jonas.
I remember years ago in Texas we went to do a ministry event and all the sudden this man approaches me and asks if I would pray healing for his Son. (I was surprised because I consider myself a nobody and the place was filled with well known preachers) So, I looked at his Son in a wheelchair and hooked up to a breathing machine. The father tells me I have one desire that my Son would be able to play like other children. We began praying and the compassion off God fell upon us and the Spirit of God moved on the young boy. We left right after that, we would jump from event to event and right back to the airport. One year later we were back in the same part of Texas and this father hunts us down. He began to share how we prayed for his Son, (I tried to remember because in one year we would see and pray for thousands) but when I asked to see his Son he pointed and said he’s over there. When I looked I seen a few kids playing, and then it hit me, “I have one desire that my Son would be able to play like other kids” I remembered it all, this father came to thank us for praying for his Son. God heal that boy and his word still remains, “Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall LAY HANDS ON THE SICK, AND THEY SHALL RECOVER.
BE FILLED,
Josh
I'm not denying the Holy Spirit. As a matter of fact I experience many things that only the Spirit can do.
John 16:8
And when He (the Holy Spirit) has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Read John MacArthur on the subject of Eph 5:18:
And the contrast in that verse, as you see it there, "Do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit," it's quite dramatic and remarkable contrast. If you just pick up the book of Ephesians and read that, you might stop and say, "Well why in the world would he contrast drunkenness with being filled with the Spirit? What is the point here? When a person is drunk, they've lost control of themselves and they wander around in an out of control kind of behavior. Is he saying I want you to be out of control but not by wine but by the Holy Spirit? What is he saying here? I want you to yield up the control of your faculties to the Holy Spirit rather than to wine? Why make such a comparison?
Well the answer is found in a bit of the historical context. Let me give you a little bit of background. Ephesus, of course, was in Asia Minor and was dominated by Hellenistic or Greek culture called Hellenistic from the Greek word hellene which means Gentiles. But the Greeks believed that the great god Zeus, they, of course, had a pantheon of gods and Zeus was one of the formidable ones, they believed that the great god Zeus had given birth to a son. And that it had occurred in a very unusual way. And I'll give you a little of the background. They believed that the child was snatched from the womb of its mother, and its mother's name in Greek mythology is Semele. And the child was snatched from the womb of Semele while Semele was being incinerated because she got too close to the burning glory of Zeus. I don't know how Zeus produced this child in her in the mythology but in some way he did it without destroying her but when she sought to get too close to him, she became incinerated and in order to preserve the child of Zeus, the child was snatched out of her womb during her incineration. The child-god who had not yet come to full term was then sown into the thigh of Zeus and kept there until time to be born. That stretches your imagination.
So here is Zeus with this fetus in some point of formation sewn into his thigh. The infant god destined by Zeus to be the world ruler was born eventually out of the thigh of Zeus and then kidnapped by the envious Titans. Titans were called in Greek mythology sons of earth. They took the child, the Titans did, this child of Zeus, tore the child limb from limb, cooked it and ate it. But Zeus found the heart, according to the mythology, revived it and it was reborn as Dionysius. Now if you ever study Greek mythology you come across the name Dionysius quite frequently. Zeus found the heart, swallowed it and eventually the heart formed into the personality of Dionysius and was reborn.
Zeus then blasted the Titans with lightning, incinerating all of them from whom...whose ashes all of humanity came. So that's their creation story. Dionysius was then really someone beyond humanity because all of humanity just rose out of the ashes of the Titans and Dionysius along with Zeus was a god.
Dionysius then, according to Greek mythology, spawned a religion, a religion of ecstasy, ectasia(?) and emotionalism. And the Dionysian cult, this religion of ecstasy and emotionalism, this frenzied kind of religion, saturated the Greek and Roman world. The Dionysian cult was a debauched form of worship and a popular, a dominant form.
The worshipers committed atrocities with human organs. They engaged in orgies of sexual perversion, along with music and dancing and feasting. But there was one common element to all of the Dionysian debacle and that was drunkenness...drunkenness. In fact, if you ever circulate in the Middle East or in the ancient Roman world, you will see Dionysius associated with grapes. When there is a statue or a tribute to Dionysius, some monument to Dionysius, it is always marked out by clusters of grapes because he became known as the god of wine.
The Greek name of Dionysius became in the Roman language, Latin, Bacchus. And Bacchus is the Roman god of wine. When people engaged in these unbelievable drunken brawls, they were called Bacchanalian feasts. And if you've studied any of that, that's a familiar term even today. Take your dictionary out and look up Bacchanalia and it will say a drunken orgy.
The key element then, the key element in pagan worship was drunkenness. That's how...that's how they got their inhibitions out. That's how they dealt with their normal restraint. That's how they dealt with normal feelings of guilt. That's how they dulled their senses sufficiently to quiet their conscience. That's how they dispelled their anxiety and fear and guilt over such vile behavior as they engaged in. That's how they induced a kind of giddiness that substituted for real joy and just catapulted them in to this kind of horrible behavior. They did it by getting drunk and losing all their inhibitions.
So they believed that drunkenness was simply the door into ecstasy, the door into religious expression. And at such drunkenness elevated the believer, the worshiper, to total communion with the deities. So drunkenness was the key to worship, to communion to the deities. The more inebriated they were the more likely they were to get in to the ectasia(?) and enthusiasmos(?), two Greek words, ecstasy and enthusiasm, that spoke about these horrifying often demonic kind of activities.
Now go back to verse 18, it takes on different meaning in the light of that context. He is saying to them do not get drunk with wine, all that does is produce dissipation. All that does is take you down. If you want to commune with God, be filled with the Spirit. Our religion is not brought about in its fullness and its richness and its reality by drunkenness but rather by the filling of the Spirit. Don't be filled with alcohol, be filled with the Holy Spirit. Literally, be being kept continuously filled by the Spirit.
If you want true religion, if you want true communion with God, if you want true worship to take place, if you want godly living, if you want to please God, then you must be filled with the Spirit...not controlled by alcohol but controlled by the Holy Spirit. The parallel to this is in Colossians 3:16 where instead of saying be filled with the Spirit, Paul says let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly because that's really the same thing. When the Word of Christ dominates your life and you respond in obedience to it, it's the same as being controlled by the Holy Spirit, of course, who is the author of Scripture. Obedience to the Word is being filled with the Spirit. It's not some kind of mystical experience. It's not some kind of ecstatic thing. It's not something that comes over you and catapults you into some unconscious behavior. It's not being knocked over into a dead faint, as you see so often on television. It's not launching off into some ecstatic speech. It's not going out of yourself or being beyond control. It simply is to be continuously controlled by the Spirit who does it through the Word and that means we are obeying the truth.
Now look at verses 19 and 20. "Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord." Let me tell you something. Where the Spirit of God controls a life, where there's a life devoted to the Word of God and obedience to the Word of God, there is praise...that's the first thing. There is praise. And I suppose obviously we could conclude that a worshiping life, a praising life comes from a heart that is filled with joy. It's this simple. You give me an obedient person, obedient to the Word of God, I'll show you a positive, happy, praising, worshiping person whose heart is filled with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, who is singing and making melody in his heart to the Lord, and I'll show you a person who can get along with anybody because they're lost in wonder, love and praise because they're worshiping the Lord.
Does this make sense to you?
Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine , wherein is excess ; but be filled with the Spirit ;
filled
Check out the word "filled" in the Greek.
4137. pleroo
Search for G4137 in KJVSL
plhrow pleroo play-ro'-o
from 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply
Accomplish the filling that has already taken place and leave strong drink behind. You are already fill with the Holy Spirit at birth, (that is our, new birth, in Christ Jesus by the Seed of the Father.)
If I already have the airplane I cannot accomplish flying by getting drunk and flapping my wings. I must use the airplane. Same for the Holy Spirit that is already in us.
I am not Pentecostal are you? I don't speak in languages, do you? I am born again into Christ and Christ into me, and by His Prayer to the Father, The Father has put the Holy Spirit in me and He will be with me forever.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I agree you can grieve the Holy Spirit, but that does not change His capacity by draining or filling of the Holy Spirit by my actions. Jesus Christ is a Person and the Holy Spirit is a Person and you cannot get just part of a Person or you don't have Him at all. If I grieve the Holy Spirit I must repent and ask for forgiveness and agree with God that I am wrong.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
In Christ: Phillip
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Just do it. What I mean is ask as Jesus said to do.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, HAVE YE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT (The dynamic infilling) SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, we have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (Dynamic infilling)
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and BEGAN TO SPEAK WITH OTHER TONGUES, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, AND THEY SPAKE THE WORD OF GOD WITH BOLDNESS.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they SPAKE IN TONGUES, AND PROPHESIED.
These are some approved examples in Scripture to show us what it looks like to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Read it for yourself, they are:
1.\tSpoke in tongues.
2.\tPreached the Word of God with boldness, (By the way this only happened in Acts to them that received the baptisim of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues first.
3.\tSpoke in tongues and prophesied.
This is a picture painted through the New Testament of what it looks like to be Spirit FILLED. If your life is a picture would it look like this?
One of the problems we have today is that people are picking up the bible and wondering why modern Churches don’t look like biblical Churches. They are wondering if Churches are preaching another gospel. Where is the POWER OF GOD? They are not seeing in Churches what they read in the bible.
If you ever want to see the power of God fall: Preach what they preached (Jesus Christ and him crucified) pray like they prayed, Acts 4:29-30 29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. And live like they lived, Galatians 2:20 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The SIN OF FORBIDDING THE GIFTS mainly applied to those who believe that gifts are for today but do not want to see them exercised.
It seems that this whole thing has gone in another direction. So because my time is limited let me cut through all this and move to the existence of the gifts today.
Sorry I’m in a rush,
Be filled, Josh
Ok, so nevermind. This stuff doesn't apply to me. I don't believe these gifts are for today.The SIN OF FORBIDDING THE GIFTS mainly applied to those who believe that gifts are for today but do not want to see them exercised.
_____________________________________________
It would probably look more like this... :)This is a picture painted through the New Testament of what it looks like to be Spirit FILLED. If your life is a picture would it look like this?
3 “ Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
______________________________________________
To be spirt-filled is to be walking with the spirit. We are to be Spirit-controlled. I sometimes use this analogy- "if the worst deamon ever possessed somebody you'd expect that person to start being crazy... well, the the holiest Spirit ever possessed you- You'd cleanup your act wouldn't you?"
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
Gracealone comments in the following way:
It would probably look more like this... :)
3 “ Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
______________________________________________
To be spirt-filled is to be walking with the spirit. We are to be Spirit-controlled. I sometimes use this analogy- "if the worst demon ever possessed somebody you'd expect that person to start being crazy... well, the the holiest Spirit ever possessed you- You'd cleanup your act wouldn't you?"
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
I agree that these are all Christian characteristics; however, I am calling “Spirit filled” what Scripture calls Spirit filled.
The things that followed this term, “They were all filled with the Spirit and……….”Are the things Scripture calls Spirit filled.
All the things you pointed out in Scripture are things all Christians should do.
Hey, I sure you can find Scripture to back up, that before the term, “They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and……” they were already doing the things you commented about.
(3 “ Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the ure in heart, For they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be alled sons of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. ECT.)
God Bless you GraceAlone,
Josh
The Holy Spirit had never been in man as it is now and ever since The Father answered His Son's prayer, and sent the Comforter at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit has always been with man but never in man as He is now.
The same goes for the Son of God. He is birthed in us and we now live by the Faith of the Son of God by Gods Grace through Faith, which man never had until Pentecost either. That is Paul's great message of the New Testament. Saved by Grace through Faith, not saved in faith by works.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
We must understand the the Faith by which the circumcision was saved was and is through works. The uncircumcision is saved by Faith through the Faith of Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
So we are saved by Grace through Faith and that is not of ourselves. It is the Faith and Grace of God the Father in and through belief in Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
In the same way when we are saved the Holy Spirit is now in us and not with us. There is only one filling, "The were filled with the Holy Spirit", These that were filled had the Holy Spirit with them and was then at Pentecost were filled with the Holy Spirit, which is what is the filling for all that Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, which takes the Holy Spirit from without, convicting of sin and knowing the need of a Savior, that Is, "Jesus Christ The Son of the Living God", Then when we believe the Holy Spirit is Pentecosted into the believer and The Son of God is birthed in us and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. When you seal something, nothing can get out or in. We have All in All, Jesus Christ, our nature, The Holy Spirit our power and Teacher and God the Father By Jesus Christ making their Abode with us.
No second filling. Speaking in tongues not necessary for validation of salvation, only the new life you spoke of when the Holiest Spirit comes in and the Spirit of Christ is birthed in us, how can we not change. That is the Grace of God through Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.
In Christ, with all the Spirit I will ever have, Teaching me all things of Jesus Christ unto a new Nature, God nature destined for the Father's House.
In Christ: Phillip
In the same way when we are saved the Holy Spirit is now in us and not with us. There is only one filling, "The were filled with the Holy Spirit", These that were filled had the Holy Spirit with them and was then at Pentecost were filled with the Holy Spirit,
KJV Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
You are right they were filled with the Spirit at Pentecost. Let me ask you this, how many were filled at Pentecost? And what did they ALL do, who experienced this dynamic infilling? THEY WERE ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THEY ALL SPOKE IN TONGUES. Why do you claim to have this same experience yet lack to do what they did? Understand this I am not talking about the gift of tongues, 1 Corinthians 12:29-30 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? NO
I am talking about the initial evidence found in Scripture for what is called among Pentecostal brothers the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Speaking in tongues not necessary for validation of salvation
I can think of none who teach you have to speak in tongues to be saved except the U.P.C.
And I would not agree with them at all.
Speaking in tongues is what followed being filled with the Holy Spirt after Jesus was raised from the dead.
Let me share this with you, People who do not believe in tongues or gifts, it is all just their belief. Some people believe in tongues and the gifts and it is just their belief. Now let me speak for me and the millions around the world like me. It is not just belief; WE KNOW IT IS ALL REAL FOR WE EXPERIECED IT OURSELVES.
John 9:25 25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
And one thing we know at one time we simply received the Spirit, but now we are filled with the SPIRIT.
BE FILLED, JOSH
Then you are saying that a person is not filled with the Holy Spirit unless he speaks in tongues as the Spirit gives them utterance.
It was not necessary for Paul. Acts 9:15-20 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
What is the reason for tongues? All that spoke in languages that all understood in their own learned language from birth, hearing it from them that spoke a different language as the Spirit gave them Utterance. Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Why? Acts 2:11-12 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? "The Wonderful Workings of God", unto salvation.
What and Who are all the gifts of the Spirit allowed for? Only one reason, for the building up of the Body of Christ. Who, in His authority and distribution uses these gifts in man that all would be made to drink into one Spirit?
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:5-11 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
There different gifts and all are by the Holy Spirit.
There are different administrations of the gifts and all are administrated by the Gifted One Himself, Jesus Christ, by His Choice.
There is manifestation of all the gifts and all are to profit all in the Body of Christ.
God is all in all. 1 Corinthians 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
The last gift in the list is the Gift of Languages of divers kinds, of the earth. The language by which we communicate with each other. If God in His working send a Greek to an American and wants the build the body of Christ, the American by a special gift administration of God by Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit the American by the Holy Spirit will speak in a Spirit powered Greek tongue that The Greek will understand in His own language, (tongue)
This is the only tongue speaking in the bible as it pleases God and manifest in man by the Holy Spirit, when needed and the more the Gospel spreads to all corners of the earth the less these interpretations by the Spirit are needed, because God can use a Greek to bring the Gospel to a Greek, but if necessary to God Languages can be used as one of the Gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, and Acts 2.
What other tongues are there? Tongues are for the unbeliever and prophecy are for the believer.
Prophecy: the teaching of the word of God to those that can attain the things of the Kingdom of God by there Born Again experience by the Christ that has been birthed in them, "the hope of Glory".
1 Corinthians 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
This is very simple why should I speak Greek when no one understands Greek, it will profit no one.
In Christ: Phillip
In the New Testament being filled with the Holy Spirit came with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. I’m not referring to John the Baptist, “Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. John was considered an Old Testament Prophet and he was filled with the Spirit from his mother’s womb. When I’m talking about the infilling of the Spirit I’m referring to after Jesus was glorified. John 7:39 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.
About Paul being filled with the Spirit, your right, he was filled with the Spirit. I think you might have missed a verse. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:18 I THANK MY GOD, I SPEAK WITH TONGUES MORE THAN YE ALL I think he spoke in tongues as well.
As far as Scripture always pointing out speaking in tongues: In some contexts it is necessary to apply the hermeneutical rule of necessary inference.
For example, Acts 8:13-17 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Here we have believers who were already baptized yet did not receive the Holy Ghost. Then here comes the Apostles, they laid their hands on them and they also received the Holy Ghost.
How do you think they knew the others received the Holy Ghost? Well what happens when someone receives the Holy Ghost? SCRIPTURE INTERPRETS SCRIPTURE.
Acts 10:44-45 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Once again how did they know? Keep reading…..
Acts 10:46a For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
I think what you do not understand is that the baptism of the Spirit (with the evidence of tongues) is for all believers who will receive. The gift as in 1Cor 12 is given as The Spirit sees fit. 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as HE (THE SPIRIT) will.
Comment>This is very simple why should I speak Greek when no one understands Greek, it will profit no one.
I guess you just don’t understand. I’m not speaking to a Greek, I’m not speaking to a Mexican, I’m not speaking to a Japanese…….I’m speaking to an Almighty God that understands everything.
1 Corinthians 14:2 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men (NOT UNTO MAN, NOT UNTO MAN, NOT UNTO MAN) but unto God (UNTO GOD, UNTO GOD, UNTO GOD: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
NOT UNTO MAN BUT UNTO GOD, Josh
This is not a proof text for speaking in tongues that no one understands. This is a admonition to speak in understanding for the upbuilding of the Church. Love and Prophecy, that is the teaching of the Word of God in the Church that all may come to the knowledge of the Son of God. The Holy Spirit does not teach in unknown tongues and He does not expect any in the church to either.
When you read 1 Corinthians 14, read it in context of Paul's admonition not to be as a barbarian to believers or unbelievers, mad. When you speak in the Church speak with understanding. When you prophesy another prophet must be present even to make sure there is not heresy, and if necessary even more to proof the prophet.
Again, why do you speak in an unknown tongue? Is it feelings, spiritual pride, or do you interpret that you may understand even what you are saying to God. How does God answer you, in your speaking in unknown tongues. Does He answer in tongues or understanding. I believe in Jesus Christ. 5 words or 10,000 no one understands.
In Christ: Phillip
Merry Christmas
2. ‘For he who speaketh in a Tongue, not to men doth he speak, but to God, for no man heareth him (to any purpose). This meaning of ἀκούειν comes out clearly in comparing Acts 9:7 and 22:9. In the one place the men hear the voice; in the other they did not hear the voice of Him who was speaking to Saul, i.e. they heard a sound but did not hear it as words [Page 306] addressed to any one. Also in the story of Babel; Συγχέωμεν ἐκεῖ αὐτῶν τὴν γλῶσσαν, ἵνα μὴ ἀκούσωσιν ἕκαστος τὴν φωνὴν τοῦ πλησίον (Gen. 11:7; comp. 42:23). Verse after verse shows that speaking in foreign languages cannot be meant. Tongues were used in communing with God, and of course this was good for those who did so (v. 4). Tongues were a sort of spiritual soliloquy addressed partly to self, partly to Heaven. Compare the proverb, Sibi canit et Musis. It is equally clear that οὐδεὶς ἀκούει does not mean that Tongues were inaudible, or that no one listened to them, but that no one found them intelligible. One might as well have heard nothing.
πνεύματι δὲ λαλεῖ μυστήρια. ‘As it is in the spirit that he speaketh what are in effect mysteries.’ Explanatory use of δέ; not uncommon after a negative, but in v. 4 without a negative. ‘In the spirit,’ but not ‘with the understanding’ (v. 14), and therefore unintelligible to others. Μυστήριον in the N.T. commonly means ‘truth about God, once hidden, but now revealed.’ In this sense it is very common in St Paul: see Lightfoot on Col. 1:26 and Swete on Mark 4:2; Beet on 1 Cor. 3:4, p. 40. Mysteries must be revealed to be profitable; but in the case of Tongues without an interpreter there was no revelation, and therefore no advantage to the hearers. See Hatch, Essays in Bibl. Grk. pp. 57 f.
I speak in tongues because I am a participant in God’s Kingdom, his Spirit moves in and through his children today.
What types of things happen when someone prays in tongues?
I remember hearing a Jack Coe sermon about this subject, a woman woke up in the midnight hour with a burden for prayer. She claimed the Spirit of God woke her up. She began to pray in the Spirit, her mind was unfruitful at the time, yet she persisted in fervent prayer. She later talked with her Son who was on a tour on a military ship. Her Son was sharing how they were struck with a torpedo and the ship should have sunk. She asked her son when it was struck; it happened to be the same time Spirit woke her up to pray. Later on she knew what she was praying for. By the way she was praying in tongues.
We do not walk by feelings we walk by faith. Many times when we walk by faith we may indeed sense a feeling.:-)
As far as speaking in tongues in the Church, 1 Corinthians 14:27 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. I would indeed interpret with a prophetic utterance.
When I speak in tongues he answers me in Old English, but this is me I can’t speak for everyone.
Merry Christmas, Josh
Robertson, A., & Plummer, A. (1911). A critical and exegetical commentary on the First epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians. Series title also at head of t.-p. (305). New York: C. Scribner's Sons.
Praise Jesus!! Lion of Judah!!!
After reading this thread. My question to most on here is this. Is the only spiritual gift in question the gift of tongues?
i am well aware of denominations that treat all (miraculous gifts as foundational) and not for today.
This is the heresy that i would confront. Not a defense of tongues only. i have observed much twisting of scripture to make various points. The purpose of ALL SCRIPTURE (which is God breathed)
2ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Thus its purpose is to teach us and bring us into ALL truth. Yet i see many here who use it to win an argument and to prove a preconcieved opinion. They read the scripture with their minds allready made-up. They hunt for verses (usually out of context) to prove the position they held before hand. Scripture must be read in context and with the full illumination of the Holy Ghost.
In context means in light of the WHOLE BIBLE not just the parts i choose to win my point.
i have seen here many people who are striving to show that God is on their side. God is not on my side (or your side) we must be on Gods side. Gods position on matters does not change. Ii is man who strives to change Gods position.
Mal 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Thus for this Christian it is my understanding that God and the way HE does things has not changed. The way He deals with mankind and uses men HAS not changed. The bible is NOT a history book. It is a living breathing manual of instruction on how to SERVE God and contend with the kingdom of darkness. RIGHT NOW in the present, in this life.
He still gives some to be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and teachers. And HE still equips them in the same way.
In closing i will give you this thought on the day of Pentecost. Some of those on seeing what had happened accused the Apostles of drunkeness.
Ac 2:13 Others mocking said, "They are full of new wine."
Today those with the same spirit would accuse them of witchcraft or false prophecy etc. i will caution those who do this to carefully consider what it is you do. Do not attribute a miraculous healing or deliverance etc. to Satan without much prayerful contemplation. Lest you blaspheme the Holy Ghost.
Hisservant rich
Matthew 4:17
hisremnant wrote:
Yet i see many here who use it to win an argument and to prove a preconcieved opinion. They read the scripture with their minds allready made-up. They hunt for verses (usually out of context) to prove the position they held before hand. Scripture must be read in context and with the full illumination of the Holy Ghost.
In context means in light of the WHOLE BIBLE not just the parts i choose to win my point.
i have seen here many people who are striving to show that God is on their side. God is not on my side (or your side) we must be on Gods side. Gods position on matters does not change. Ii is man who strives to change Gods position.
Couldn't have said it more directly than this :-D Blessed by your whole post, but especially these quotes. Some don't like to dialogue or play catch...just want to hold the ball :-( "Godly" wisdom is given by the Lord...so who can boast of something that was given to them. The Lord giveth...the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the Name of the Lord.
richie
richie
After reading this thread. My question to most on here is this. Is the only spiritual gift in question the gift of tongues?
NO
There are more Spiritual gifts than just tongues. Some have questions about tongues, I guess they want to start wthe least of the gifts before they move in to the greatest.
This is the heresy that i would confront
i have observed much twisting of scripture to make various points
Jesus used Scripture to make his point. When you start saying people are heretical and are twisting Scripture; you need to make a reference. Hey if you’re a Bible Scholar, don’t just name call, show us what Scripture is out of context and bring correction.
Thus for this Christian it is my understanding that God and the way HE does things has not changed.
His ESSENCE does not change. He does change his way sometimes, if you don’t believe that, go sacrifice a cow for your sins.
Hey, I appreciate those who are willing to back up what they believe by the Scripture. I have heard a lot of comments on this thread some I agree and some I don’t. When you teach or practice something you should be able to back it with the Bible. When your beliefs are put to the fire, that’s when you really know what you believe.
God Bless,
Josh
Brethren,
When discussing some issue, I believe the first thing we need to ask ourselves is: [i]Are we in the Spirit[i]are we in the flesh[i]the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God[i]because they are spiritually discerned[i]judges all things[i]we have the mind of Christ
I praise the Lord that He doesn't leave His Word to anyone's private interpretation, but has given us His Spirit to guide us into all truth... only if we humble ourselves in awe of Him, as if knowing nothing, and ask Him for the wisdom of Christ that He gives liberally. No, brethren, the natural, fleshly mind will NOT do. I can testify that if I happen to be in the flesh, John 3:16 means nothing to me--I do not understand it because it is spiritually discerned. Likewise, with any other passage, at any specific time, we need to lean not on our own understanding, but humble, I said, humble ourselves, and ask the Holy Spirit to teach us. Surely, our hearts are deceitful, but the Lord is patient and kind, and if we deny ourselves, shedding our fleshly pride, and trust in Him, He will make our paths straight.
I pray the Father that we may be one as He and the Lord Jesus even are one; that we may ALL walk in the same Spirit; that there be no controversy or dispute of the flesh among us; that me may ALL have the mind of Christ. That is what the church should be. "[i]There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all
Thus, I exhort you, brethren, even as Paul did, "Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, [i]that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel
Grace be with you all,
Slavyan
P.S. I posted another thread the other day, just on this very issue--"that the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit of God" ([url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13933&forum=35&0]Here is the link.
Praise Jesus!! Lion of Judah
Evangelist wrote:
There are more Spiritual gifts than just tongues. Some have questions about tongues, I guess they want to start wthe least of the gifts before they move in to the greatest.
My point was that after more than 80 posts don't you think it is time to move on?
Also you say that forbidding the gifts of the spirit is a sin. which is far worse than calling it heresy.
And after many posts you have yet to make that point.
i gave two verses that quite plainly state that God does not change. i was not talking about sacrifice i was refering to gifts
And i never claimed to be a bible scholar. i am only someone who believes ALL of the bible.
and i haven't sat here and promoted myself or a church. How about you Evangelist?
Hisservant rich
Matthew 4:17
And i never claimed to be a bible scholar. i am only someone who believes ALL of the bible.
Are you saying that people on this thread do not believe the whole Bible? If so WHO?
Also you say that forbidding the gifts of the spirit is a sin. which is far worse than calling it heresy.
Oh, so what you are saying is those who forbid gifts are heretics. I did not make that point because I was not saying that. If you believe that show it in Scripture.
The two verses you referred to refer to God’s essence not his ways. I said that because God can still be the same God without changing and allow the gifts to cease. So the logic between gifts or sacrifice is the same thing; they are both his ways. I think it is much better to use solid Scripture to back a point.
nd i haven't sat here and promoted myself or a church. How about you Evangelist?
My promotion does not come from man but from GOD. I do not try to promote myself, here, let me try, my name is Josh and I am a preacher of the GOSPEL About promoting the Church, Oh you are right, “LET THE CHURCH OF THE THE JESUS CHRIST BE SHOUTED FROM EVERY MOUNTAIN TOP, OH LET THE BODY OF CHRIST ARISE IN THESE LAST DAYS”
josh
There are tests for all the Gifts, if the tests are in place the Gifts of the Spirit can be verified. The Gifts of the Spirit can and are counterfeited. That is why the tests are there. If a person has the gift of healing people will be healed completely, not just in feelings of a build up from a false healer, and walk away then the pain returns and the person is accused of not having enough faith.
The gift of the Spirit in tongues is the same, if an interpretation is not given, keep silent in the Churches, it is not from the Holy Spirit but man, and this is not a valid gift of the Spirit.
Prophecy, is the same you must have other prophets present to make sure that the Holy Spirit is giving the Prophecy, test all things.
We are all prophets, 1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. Even then the Holy Spirit must be the One dividing as He will.
1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1 Corinthians 12:29-31 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. Yes, if and when and how and where the Holy Spirit divides the Gifts as He wills.
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
This is the truth in all things and the Gifts are an important use that the Holy Spirit uses to build the Body of Christ, dispersing the Gifts as He pleases. The man that says he has the gift is a liar, it is not his gift, it is the Gift of God by the Gifted one Himself, Jesus Christ and used and divided by the Holy Spirit as He pleases.
1 Corinthians 14:37-40 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.
Never think that he has a gift unless he knows and believes and is tested by others that the Gift being used is from the Holy Spirit as He wishes to disperse and use them in the Body of Christ.
If a prophet prophesy and it does not come true, he is not prophet and should never be listened to.
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
Who is the One that makes perfect? Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Is Christ in you? 1 Corinthians 13:9-11 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Has He come? Yes, He is come in the believer and is now our life. Is He Perfect?
Again, is He Come in the flesh, yes He is in the flesh of Believers which has been quickened to contain that which is Perfect, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and God the Father whom all abode in and with us. 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: I He Come? If you are a Christian, Yes.
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Don't deny the Gifts but they must be verified and tested by all believers that they are of Christ by the use of the Holy Spirit Himself in and through the believer.
1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these (gifts) worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.
Think about it, The gifts must be divided and worked through the Holy Spirit as He wills or Christians would do the same thing to the gifts that Israel did to the Law.
In Christ: Phillip
Is Christ in you? 1 Corinthians 13:9-11 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
It is true that many view the perfect as Jesus, but, Paul had Christ in him, don’t you think? Paul referred to the perfect coming as a future event. If you truly believe Jesus has fully come than a consistent hermeneutic would be to believe that all the partial in done away with (Including all the Spiritual gifts). I would say this refers to the future coming of the Lord.
Jesus went away:
John 14:2-3 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I GO to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I WILL COME AGAIN, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Yet, he is coming back for his bride.
Matthew 9:15 15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, WHEN THE BRIDEGROOM SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, and then shall they fast.
Do you believe in fasting? If you believe Jesus has already come there is no need to fast.
1 Corinthians 11:24-26 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death TILL HE COME.
Once again if he has already come; there is no need for the practice of communion.
Does this seem problematic to you? Or can you share how you would handle it?
Josh
Praise Jesus!!!
i will attempt to make myself clear. i am pointing out that what you call sin would be better refered to as a heresy.
A heresy is raising or teaching one part of scripture above the rest. It is putting to great an emphasis on a particular aspect.
Josh, somehow you seem to think that it is worse to call something heretical. Than it is to call it sin. i do emphatically disagree.
i realize that the Roman church burned many a man for heresy. In the above i stated what heresy is. The Roman church used a different definition however. ANYONE WHO DISAGREES IS A HERETIC. Even if they taught the truth.
Any way i agree that being branded a heritic was and perhaps still is not good. BUT i would rather you JUDGED me a heretic than for God to JUDGE me SINNER.
i can give you no scripture about heresy as their is none, the whole concept is of MAN. But i again caution you to be careful about calling someone, who believes something, sinfull UNLESS you can prove it. Let God judge.
As for( Mal 3:6 and Heb 13:8) i think you had better show me that it refers only To essence. You see this is what i call twistng. i believe those verses mean what they say and say what they mean. The Holy Ghost confirms this to me. They quite clearly state that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. i used scripture from both Old and New Covenants.
Finally let me state that i believe that all the Gifts of the spirit are still being manifested i have seen and experienced them. They are not to be promoted however above any other truth of scripture. The only thing that should be raised high and lifted up is JESUS!!!!
Hisservant rich
Matthew 4:17
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. Also born of Spirit is the only way the Gifts will work in a man, since it is not his choice of what gifts will be used in him to build up the Body of Christ, but it is the Holy Spirit that will divide the gifts among the Body that will be of effect to the Church of Christ, His body.
How has Christ come already? "Christ in you the hope of Glory". True this is a mystery but if you are born again, Christ is in you.
Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Over two hundred this statement is made, and most of them by Paul, " in Christ ".
KJV English Concordance for "in Christ"
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The words in Christ occur in 224 verses, including 77 exact phrase matches shown first:
Just a few: Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature
A new creature, a creature the is now God natured, by the Incorruptable seed of the birthing of Christ in the believer. Now all that is done is done by the Christ that is in us, if we believe He is born again in us and renew our minds to the Mind of Christ, and allow Him to work in His Kingdom that is already here, by His Spirit that is in us.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
The in Christ statement is not in the old testament, how could it be?
I see Jesus in me because I see Jesus in you and vise a verse a. I see Jesus in you because I see Jesus in me.
"In Christ: Phillip" is a real happening in me.
i am pointing out that what you call sin would be better refered to as a heresy.
Why would it be better? I do not know one person who uses your definition of heresy.
A heresy is raising or teaching one part of scripture above the rest. It is putting to great an emphasis on a particular aspect.
Where did you find that definition?
her•e•tic \\ˈher-ə-ˌtik\\ noun
(14th century)
1 : a dissenter from established church dogma; especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth
2 : one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine :
her•e•sy \\ˈher-ə-sē\\ noun
plural her•e•sies
[Middle English heresie, from Old French, from Late Latin haeresis, from Late Greek hairesis, from Greek, action of taking, choice, sect, from hairein to take]
(13th century)
1 a : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma
b : denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church
c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma
2 a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice
b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards
Josh, somehow you seem to think that it is worse to call something heretical. Than it is to call it sin. i do emphatically disagree.
I have caught a Christian brother in a lie, which is sinful. I have seen others who have crept in the Church and taught heretical doctrines and shredded the flock of God.
WHAT IS WORSE?
GOD DOES NOT CHANGE
I am not saying God changes, what I am saying is that if you are trying to apply this to speaking in tonuges and other gifts; then you would have seen Moses and some Old Testament saints speaking in tongues as well.
I do not see why this is so hard for you to understand?
But i again caution you to be careful about calling someone, who believes something, sinfull UNLESS you can prove it. Let God judge.
You say let God judge. He does by his WORD. If God gives a direct command not to do something and you do it anyway it is sinful.
Example, Exodus 20:13 13 Thou shalt not kill. If you go out and kill someone that is sinful; I do not need the heavens to rip open and hear a voice from heaven saying,” THAT IS SINFUL” I already know because it is in his WORD. On this particular subject one verse that can be used is, 1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Forbid not to speak with tongues is a direct command. If you violate a direct command it is sinful according to Scripture. Does this seem logical to you?
Josh,
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Do you believe in a future second coming of Christ?
Yes or No?
It sounds like you are a Preterist.
Josh
Ephesians 1:17-23 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Yes I believe in a future coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to receive His Body the Church into His Father's House, which we are being prepared for now on this earth but not of this earth, this is our school house. I also believe in a yet future coming of Christ to this earth to attain His Throne as King on David's Throne, and we will be with Him.
Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. Notice no blood.
He will change us in a twinkling of and eye and we will have a body just like His.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.
Who's life do we now Live? Where are we already seated? Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Where are we already? What were we before Jesus Christ was born again in us because we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Ephesians 2:1-9 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) Ephesians 2:1-9 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Where are we now? "passing through"
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
In Christ: Phillip
Christinyou, I do not understand why you quote all these Scripture: faith you are saved, changed in a twinkling of an eye, ect……….OK you like to quote Bible verses great. Yet, it seems like your quoting of verses is a big smoke screen to avoid the original question.
You commented the following way. Is Christ in you? 1 Corinthians 13:9-11 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Has He come? Yes, He is come in the believer and is now our life. Is He Perfect?
It is true that many view the perfect is Jesus, but, Paul had Christ in him, don’t you think? Paul referred to the perfect coming as a future event. If you truly believe Jesus has fully come than a consistent hermeneutic would be to believe that all the partial is done away with (Including all the Spiritual gifts). I would say this refers to the future coming of the Lord.
Like I said Paul refers to the perfect as a future event, while having Christ in him the hope of glory. I agree it has to do with Jesus and his coming, but I do not agree with your interpretation of the perfect having already come. In fact, it sounds like a private interpretation.
2 Peter 1:20 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Do you know anyone in this world that teaches or believes your personal view?
Do you believe in the gifts today? If you truly believe the perfect has come; the part is done away. In other words we do not need any gifts which are in part. Do you under stand what I’m saying?
Josh
All the spiritual gifts are perfect, it is man that messes them up. That is why the Holy Spirit is the operation and dispenser of the gifts. Man cannot generate a gift within Himself. Only the Perfect Himself, Jesus Christ who is God and The Holy Spirit who is God, in a person can bring forth the gifts of God and use them to build up the Body of Christ His Church.
Yes I believe in the gifts, but I don't believe that when man thinks the gifts are give to him that now he is the operation and user of the gift.
Christ being Perfect and being born again in a person does not take away the in part, Because when Christ is come in the believer the gifts are in operation by the Holy Spirit and they become perfect by virtue of who is the Divider Himself and the Operations officer that directs them in the Church, the Body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 13:8-11 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Only man can use the gifts in part. The Christ in you is perfect and if we are depending on Him for the Gifts and the Holy Spirit to work them in us, then the building up of the Church will be perfect. Who is building the Church and making it perfect? It is not man.
Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
Quote: Your Question;
"Do you know anyone in this world that teaches or believes your personal view?"
Answer, YES. But this is not my personal view it is the truth in the word.
In Christ: Phillip
In Christ: Phillip
All the spiritual gifts are perfect, it is man that messes them up. That is why the Holy Spirit is the operation and dispenser of the gifts. Man cannot generate a gift within Himself. Only the Perfect Himself, Jesus Christ who is God and The Holy Spirit who is God, in a person can bring forth the gifts of God and use them to build up the Body of Christ His Church.
Yes I believe in the gifts, but I don't believe that when man thinks the gifts are give to him that now he is the operation and user of the gift.
Christ being Perfect and being born again in a person does not take away the in part, Because when Christ is come in the believer the gifts are in operation by the Holy Spirit and they become perfect by virtue of who is the Divider Himself and the Operations officer that directs them in the Church, the Body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 13:8-11 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Only man can use the gifts in part. The Christ in you is perfect and if we are depending on Him for the Gifts and the Holy Spirit to work them in us, then the building up of the Church will be perfect. Who is building the Church and making it perfect? It is not man.
Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
Quote: Your Question;
"Do you know anyone in this world that teaches or believes your personal view?"
Answer, YES. But this is not my personal view it is the truth in the word.
In Christ: Phillip
In Christ: Phillip
We know that the gifts are perfect; however, that is not the question.
When that which is perfect has come, 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then FACE TO FACE; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. The perfect is not talking about the gifts; it is not talking about a past event it is talking about THE SOON COMING KING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? (FACE TO FACE) No more time to comment on this. THE PERFECT=THE COMING JESUS
"Do you know anyone in this world that teaches or believes your personal view?"
You said yes, just give me one.
hisremnant wrote:
Finally let me state that i believe that all the Gifts of the spirit are still being manifested i have seen and experienced them. They are not to be promoted however above any other truth of scripture. The only thing that should be raised high and lifted up is JESUS!!!!
Hisservant rich
Matthew 4:17
Blessed by the above quote...
A quote by Henry Mahan: "We're just using borrowed gifts." :-D
I should fear if I donot use His gifts for His purposes and not my own.
richie
""You said yes, just give me one.""
The Birthing
Part 1
By Warren Litzman
“Ye must be born again” (John 3:7).
Introduction
“Ye must be born again” is a favorite sermon topic, but relatively few Christians really understand what it means to be born again. Why is it such a rare thing to hear a simple exposition of what the new birth means and what takes place when one is born again? This has always perplexed me because the fact is our supernatural birth is as real as our natural birth.
In order to understand the birthing, or what it means to be born again, a historical setting may be helpful. In the Old Testament, salvation was of the soul. That makes salvation easy to understand because most of us grew up in religion where we learned a vocabulary to express the concept of salvation by our soul-winning campaigns and by being encouraged to be a soul-winner. The use of the word soul is primarily Old Testament terminology. In the Old Testament, the saving of the soul was all there was because the saving of the spirit by Christ was not yet a reality. Christ had not yet died on the cross, and no provision had been made to have an exchange in spirit wrought by Christ in the person at that time. This exchange takes place in the believer’s spirit; Satan out and Christ in. All soul salvation was of self-effort, and the person had to do something to make it happen. An example of this would be Abraham, who was said to be a great man of faith, but the Scripture states that what made him a great man was his obedience—which is self-effort. Obedience salvation requires that you do something to make it so. All salvation in the Old Testament was soulish with no exchange taking place in spirit.
In the Old Testament, the word soul is used eight times more than in the New Testament. In Paul’s epistles, he uses the word soul only nine times. There is little mention of soul in the New Testament because once Christ is birthed in the spirit of the believer, there is not anything you can do to improve the condition of the spirit. In the Old Testament, salvation was something that was done soulishly, and the human spirit (Satan’s nature, kindly referred to as “Adamic nature”) was brought under subjection. That was very tenuous because even the greatest people in the Old Testament had a difficult time bringing their spirit under subjection.
The Liberating Secret
It is my understanding that the entire purpose of the third-dimensional world that exists around us is to facilitate what I see in the Scripture to be the “liberating secret.” The liberating secret is something hidden in God that no man in the Scriptures knew anything about until it was revealed to Paul by God (Gal. 1:15–16), and Paul told it to us in his epistles. Paul would finally summarize the liberating secret in Colossians 1:26–27 as “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” He would go on to teach us that the creature was a container with the Creator living His life in and through the creature. All this comes about as a result of the birthing.
The word birth, when used literally, always means a new life, which has the same nature as the parents, coming into existence. When a wolf or a sheep is born, there is a new life which has the wolf nature or the sheep nature, as the case may be. When a child is born into the world, a new life comes into existence. This life has the nature of the child’s parents which is sinful and subject to death. This is the birth that Jesus called “of the flesh,” and the result of that birth is flesh. This birth of the flesh receives its nature from Adam, the father of the human race. The Adamic nature, however, is a sin-nature or a Satan-nature. The only thing God could do with the flesh was to judge it, and the judgment resulted in condemnation and execution (Rom. 8:3; Gal. 2:19; Rom. 6:6). Scripture does not teach that the human being has a nature of its own. To be re-birthed does not mean that this life which is born of the flesh is changed or made over. Because Satan’s nature misused the Creator’s creation of the human, the creature had to have a miracle to ever function according to its original, Godly creation. That miracle would be an exchange of natures, making the new birth imperative.
The new birth is a birth in the Spirit. It is to be “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13). It is the coming into being of a new life which has the incorruptible and immortal (not subject to death) nature of its father, God. Of the new birth, Peter writes:
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever” (1 Peter 1:23).
This seed not only lives forever, but it also remains (1 John 3:9) in the one who is born of God. Such life must be eternal, and that is what Jesus said it is (John 3:16). Life, which is eternal, cannot die. All who are born of the incorruptible seed have an incorruptible nature (the God-nature), which is eternal life. It is impossible for such to be unborn, for that would mean the corruption of the divine nature and the death of that which cannot die.
The Origin of the Plan of God
If someone were to ask you what your origin was, what would you say? Your first idea might be that you had a mother and a father, and when they came together you came out of their union. But that is not really your origin. Someone else might say, My origin was when I was saved. That is when I was birthed, or born again. But that would not be your origin either. You might even go all the way back to Adam and say that your origin was in Adam, your forefather. But that would not be correct either. In order to answer this question you must start with God and the plan He had before the foundation of the world:
“According as he hath chosen us in him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love” (Eph. 1:4, author’s translation added).
What was behind this great plan of God? Before anything was created that is in the Bible, we are told that God had a house full of creatures. The creatures that God created had no sonship quality in them and did not bear the earmarks of God’s nature. Having a father spirit, God took one of these creatures and placed him as a son. He did not birth him as a son; He placed him as a son, and we know that son to be Lucifer. One day this son, Lucifer, who is called son of the morning in Isaiah 14:12, decided that he was greater than God and tried to take over God’s house, which led to God taking action.
If I were to ask you who you thought God was, the first thing that would come to your mind would probably be that God is love. That answer would be correct because God is love and all He wants from His created creatures is reciprocal love. Love is what He did not get from Lucifer. God does not want a creature who is forced or programmed to love Him. God wants a creature to love Him by a free-will decision because of who He is. God, as Father, wanted to fill His house with sons, and that is how this great plan of God came about.
The Bible tells us exactly what God thought at that very moment. In Ephesians 1:4 we read,
“According as he hath chosen us in him [Christ] before the foundation of the world…”
According to this idea, God made a choice that all His sons would be in Christ. He made that choice before the foundation of the world. It is not surprising that the most often stated truth in the New Testament is that of being “in Christ.” It is stated more than any other single concept. The great liberating secret comes from the statement, “in Christ.” God created free moral agents, just like you and I, with a plan that one day we would come to a place where we find that we cannot save ourselves and need help. Our lives might be in turmoil, and we may come to the conclusion that we cannot work it out by ourselves. At that moment, God’s liberating secret goes into effect because we have the free-will option of turning to Jesus; and when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, God births the liberating secret in us. An unfortunate fact today is that multitudes of believers who are saved do not know the liberating secret. They have no understanding of Christ in them and what that means.
The only way there can possibly be another person in you is to have a conception, which brings about a birthing. There is no other way to accomplish a birthing action. From the time God decided He was going to put Christ in the believer to the time He first did it, at least 4,000 years passed. Everything that happened during that time period had to do with setting the stage to bring about the liberating secret. As born-again believers, we know something that neither Isaiah, Moses, Abraham, Jacob, nor Adam knew. We know something that no one in this world knew for over 4,000 years. We know that the only way a creature can ever please God is for God to take a part of Himself and put it into the creature. Throughout the entire Old Testament, the theme is that people must do something to please God. God allowed the people in the Old Testament to approach Him by their own works; however, they had to offer a sacrifice by killing an animal. The required sacrifice pointed to the Cross, but killing an animal did not save the people, as there was no life in anything they did. “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life” (1 John 5:12). God waited 4,000 years until the momentous event of the Cross came about.
The Origin of the Birthing
Jesus was the first to speak of the birthing when He spoke to Nicodemus, who was the ruler of the Jews. God arranged for Nicodemus, who had heard about Jesus teaching and performing miracles, to go to Jesus and say,
“We know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him” (John 3:2).
It was obvious that Nicodemus wanted to talk to Jesus about spiritual matters. He most likely wanted to talk about Moses and the Law and the many wonderful things that had happened during that 4,000-year period. Jesus looked at this spiritual leader and, with no explanation, said he must be born again or he cannot see the kingdom of God, or better yet, he cannot understand what God is doing unless he is re-birthed. That was a far-out comment.
Nicodemus was aware that an earthly kingdom was going to be set up at some point in time because God had promised throughout the Old Testament that a Messiah-king would take over Israel someday. But Jesus said there was no use in discussing such things until Nicodemus was born again. My understanding of that discussion is that the kingdom was not going to be set up on earth at that time because the kingdom would ultimately be in believers when they are born again. That was so radical that Nicodemus did not understand it. The end of that conversation was that Nicodemus did the only rational thing there was to do by saying, Well, does that mean I can go back into my mother’s womb and come out a second time? Jesus never answered his question. Instead, Jesus said a very strange thing. He said, Nicodemus, it is like the wind blowing, you do not know where it is coming from and you do not know where it is going. That is what it means to be born again. That was the introduction to the liberating secret. That was the introduction of the “mystery.” It literally meant you must have a spiritual birthing before you can ever understand the things of God.
I believe there are multitudes today who are born-again children of God, but they do not see the things of God because they do not understand the birthing process. Nicodemus did not understand it, and Jesus did not explain it to him. That is very important. Why didn’t Jesus explain to Nicodemus what it meant to be born again? Why did He say it is like the wind blowing? The reason was it was a mystery not to be revealed at that time.
Nicodemus had already called Jesus a rabbi, which established an important factor. When Jesus would not answer his question, He took it out of the hands of people such as the rabbis, preachers, prophets, apostles and everyone else to explain the mystery. He, Himself, as the Son of God, would not explain the birthing process. I think He did not do it because one day, as in 1 Corinthians 2:9–10, the Apostle Paul would be destined to say,
“Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him [the liberating secret that God had prepared for mankind] but God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit” (author’s translation added).
Paul said the deeper things of God could only be revealed to you by the Spirit.
John also says some powerful and significant things about the birthing in his gospel and epistles. In John 5:1 we read, “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born [birthed] of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten [is birthed] of him” (author’s translation added).
What we have in this verse are two different terms relating to the birthing, born and begotten. In 1 John 3:9, an interesting word applies to the birthing, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
The Koine Greek word for “seed” in this verse is sperma. The seed signifies the fact that spiritual life is imparted to the believer the instant of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. The phrase, “his seed remaineth in him,” explains that the Seed, which is placed into the believer, abides without the possibility of removal or extinction. This means that the child of God, one who is re-birthed, remains eternally related to Christ and to the Father.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin” is also significant because the believer’s Adamic spirit has been exchanged for the Spirit of Christ, who does not sin! “He that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit” (1 Cor. 6:17).
Skipping down to 1 John 5:4 we read, “For whatsoever is born [birthed] of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world even our faith” (author’s translation added).
This verse takes some explaining. It states that whosoever is born of God overcometh the world. It is very rare to hear anyone preach on that statement. What you usually hear is that the born-again have ready access to God, or that the born-again can get faith to obtain a miracle. This verse does not say there is anything you have to do to make it work. It says the birthing means you have overcome the world. That is difficult for us because we do not really believe this fact; moreover, we are so mixed up with all of the soulish preaching we have heard about seeking after God, fasting and praying, memorizing Scriptures, or contacting someone with faith who can help, that we miss the entire content of this verse. At the same time, this verse does not say whoever is birthed of God will never have trouble. This verse does not say you will not get sick. It does not say you will never die.
Some Results of the Birthing
The moment we were born again, we were unfit for this world. We are not supposed to fit in because we are a new creation. We are an entirely different race of people, like people from Venus or Mars who have set foot on this earth. God, Himself, re-birthed us; and He did not intend that the world should swallow us up. The world and all that is in it is under His subjection (Col. 1:16–17). All things were created by Christ and for Christ; and aside from Christ there is not anything in existence. Furthermore, John says,
“All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3).
When the world was created with its evil, its Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, with the serpent, with evil men all around, and getting worse, God still says, Whoever is birthed of God overcomes. We have not heard the gospel, have we? If every Christian knew that Christ was in them and that learning Christ would mean it did not matter what the Devil threw at them, what a difference that would make in their lives. They would be overcomers, regardless of what God allowed to come their way. If one gets laid off the job, it concerns us. If the necessary money does not come in, it concerns us. If the doctor says there is a lump on your neck, it concerns us. From now until the time we go home to the Father’s house, there are going to be things that concern us. But Christ has overcome the world. Nevertheless, Scripture does not say it will not hurt or it will not get bad. It does say we will overcome.
I do not know what you are concerned about, but I want to tell you that your visible problem is not the real problem. Your real problem is not knowing who you are; whoever is birthed by God is going to overcome this world. Better yet, we have already overcome because there is not anything in the world that can take away your birthing or your relationship with the Father. Paul saw this, and he thought of the worse thing that could happen to a human being, and he said, It does not matter whether I live or die. I have told people on their deathbeds that Christ was in them. Hearing that made a big change in them because they had been frightened to meet God and most of them were wondering why God did not give them a miracle and raise them out of bed. They did not know, or had forgotten, that Christ was in them and that was all they needed.
In 1 John 5:18 it says,
“We know that whosoever is birthed of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten [birthed] of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not” (author’s translation added).
Charismatics would rather chase the Devil than preach a gospel that says he will not touch whoever is birthed of God without God’s permission. A remarkable thing happened to me years ago. It may have been my Baptist background, as we were never taught much about the Devil. When I began to preach in Pentecostal churches and with Charismatics in the faith movement, all I heard about was the Devil; I became Devil-conscious. Later, I decided that if I were the Devil, I would want people to be conscious of me. If I were the Devil, I would want everyone casting out devils and calling everything from a stump to a burned down house the work of the Devil. By distracting them with Devil-consciousness, there would be fewer opportunities for them to know that whoever is birthed of God cannot be touched by the Devil without God’s permission. That is big, isn’t it?
The verse also says, “Whoever is birthed of God keepeth himself.” We need to ask ourselves how that works. A believer cannot save himself, and he cannot stay saved on his own efforts. How then does he keep himself? I think the answer is by doing what he knows he ought to do to be true to the Christ within him. This is the best thing James ever said. “To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin” (James 4:17). Sin, then, is a violation of your knowledge. Think about a diabetic person. If a diabetic takes his pill or his inoculation on schedule, he lives. He is doing what he ought to do by keeping himself. Most of us do not do what we are supposed to do most of the time. You cannot have a love affair with Jesus until you know He has been birthed in you. V
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In Christ: Phillip
that is, as much as I could......could....could sit still for, (thats a good way to put it)
I came away with this: that Phillip is against glossolalia, and Josh is for it.
I think also that the barb, "heretic", or "heretical" was flung about.
so as Jesus said, (after Peter said he would buy two swords) "Thats enough".
(I'm smiling...its funny,,,actually not, but smiling is better than crying when folks in the Church get to fussing over Scripture)
may I indulge in a bit of prophesy?...and its not really that prophetic, because what i see is as clear as looking to the western sky and seeing massive thunder clouds headed towards us:
that the war that will consume this world will be rooted in religion, and religion has nothing to do with Jesus, nothing to do with God, nothing to do with Faith, nothing to do with Love, it is all about the traditions of man, and as history proves, even today, man will kill man over religion.
its a sad state of affairs, but inevitable.
Hope?
oh yes! Hope and Faith in Jesus, crossing the Jordan, walking up to the Gates of the New Jerusalem, heavenly with a whole host of angels, and the Mediator of a New Covenant, the Lamb of God, not the Lion of Judah, but the Lamb of God, Jesus.
Now, not yet.
okay, I'm done...carry on gentlemen.
neil
Hi Neil,
I am not against glossolalia that is languages on this earth, or The Holy Spirit using tongues to bring forth the Gospel as Peter and the others that received and spoke in languages that all heard in their own tongue.
Acts 2:5-11 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
What I am against is the use of tongues, misusing the Holy Spirit for what He was prayed for by Jesus Christ and the answer of that prayer.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:26-28 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Jesus Himself said He would come, How? 1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. There must be a New Father that produces Incorruptable Seed, that is the birthing of God in the believer, that is Jesus Christ who makes us a new creature in Him. The Amplified uses "a new creation", that is not a creature that is being made new, but a new person by the Seed of the Father, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", that is a new creature that is a creation of God and "all things have become new".
John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
When the Holy Spirit has come you will know that I am in the Father and I am in you and you in me. 1 John 2:20-21 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
The Holy Spirit does not mess around with unintelligible words. He speaks of Christ and things we are to know. John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Jesus never taught in tongues or a language that is not understood, in parables, yes, but not tongues. It takes the Holy Spirit to understand the parables and the truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
When will the Church wake up and listen to the Holy Spirit of Truth in the Knowledge of Him. What did Paul Pray? That we might know Him and the fellowship of His life and suffering in truth and knowledge of Him.
"Oh, that I might know Him".
In Christ: Phillip
Part 2
By Warren Litzman
The Holy Spirit and the Liberating Secret
In the last series of messages Jesus gave in John 14, 15 and 16, He laid out something very important concerning the Holy Spirit. These three chapters introduce the Holy Spirit, who was yet to come. In John 14:20, Jesus specifically said, “At that day [the Day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit comes] ye shall know that I am in my Father and ye in me, and I in you” (author’s translation added).
That is a very important statement Jesus made. If we do not understand what Jesus said, we will not understand the liberating secret. Jesus said only when the Holy Spirit comes would you know what God had done and who you are. You would know that “I am in you and you are in me.” It is obvious to me, from reading the Scriptures, that the Holy Spirit came and multitudes did not understand what Jesus had said at all! They did not have any knowledge about the birthing. They did not have any understanding about how Christ was in the believer and the believer was in Christ. Nothing is written about this truth in the book of Acts. The whole of what the Holy Spirit came to do, as far as Jesus was concerned, was missed. It is the same in the Christian world today with multitudes of believers misusing the Holy Spirit. They think He is power and the blessing, and they make Him the gifted one. They teach that He is the one who empowers man to be something in and of Himself, but Jesus never spoke of that being the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said when the Holy Spirit came, He would not do anything of Himself; He would not speak of Himself but would take the things of Jesus and reveal them to the believer (John 15:26; 16:13–14). It was a mystery that needed to be revealed. That mystery was Christ in man (Col. 1:26–27). The Holy Spirit would perform and reveal that ministry.
Jesus did not answer Nicodemus because it was the Holy Spirit’s work to reveal the Son. The Holy Spirit reveals Christ in and to the believer! This was missed in the book of Acts. Blessed as the book of Acts is, we have no record of Christ as the life of the believer until some years later when Paul received a revelation of Christ as his life (Gal. 1:15–16). The mystery is very important! Paul said only the Holy Spirit could reveal the mystery. Paul speaks of several mysteries, but the mystery of godliness is Christ in you, your only hope of glory (Col. 1:26–27). You come to know that only by the Holy Spirit.
The New Creation In Christ Jesus
He who is saved is “created in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:10). “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature” (Gal. 6:15). This creation takes the place of the old creation in the first Adam.
“If any man be in Christ Jesus, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Cor. 5:17).
This new creation is “the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness” (Eph. 4:24).
The new man is the born-again man, the one born of the Spirit, as distinguished from the old man, or carnal man, the one born of the flesh. The old man has a corrupt sin-nature, with inborn tendency to evil. The new man is partaker of the divine nature and life, and in no sense is the old man made over, or improved (Eph. 4:24; Rom. 6:6).
God created Adam in His own likeness (Gen. 5:1–2). Afterward, “Adam…begat a son in his own likeness, after his image and called his name Seth” (Gen. 5:3). This is the beginning of the generations of the human race. But something happened in the interval between the second and third verses of Genesis 5. Adam, through sin, had lost his likeness of God. When Seth was begotten in Adam’s “own likeness, after his own image,” it was not in the original likeness to God, but it was in the likeness of sinful Adam. Scripture said of Adam “and he died,” so it was also said of Seth “and he died.” The observant reader will find the following formula throughout the chapter: “And all the days of…are…years: and he died.” There is but one exception, Enoch, of whom it is not said, “and he died.” Enoch, who was “translated that he should not see death” (Heb. 11:5), is a type of those saints who are to be translated when Christ comes for His Church.
Ever since, that same formula has applied to man. Every descendant of Adam, from Cain and Seth down to the present day, has been born in the likeness and after the image of Adam, with a sinful nature and subject to death. There is absolutely no exception from this condition. Therefore,
“Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all have sinned” (Rom. 5:12).
Thus, “by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men” (Rom. 5:18). The words which are written large over the first creation, of which Adam is the federal head, are: Sin Hath Reigned unto Death.
That condition is unalterable, for God had commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and had made death the penalty for disobedience. That means death in its fullest significance: physical death, spiritual separation from God and the second death, which is the final everlasting separation of the body, soul and spirit from God. God’s commandment had been broken, and the penalty could not be avoided. When the Son of God became flesh and came into the world, He dwelt among men of the old creation. But He was not of it. He was not of the seed of Adam, but of the seed of His heavenly Father. Therefore, He did not possess Adam’s sinful nature. He was full of truth (John 1:14). He was in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom. 8:3), but no sin was in Him.
Through love, Christ identified Himself with the first creation and took upon Himself its guilt. He was the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. As a result, He tasted death for every man (Heb. 2:9). But God raised Him up, “having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that He should be holden of it” (Acts 2:24). He rose victorious over death. The Son of God? Yes, but also the Son of man. With His resurrection, there was a new creation raised by God out of the death of the old. All who are saved are quickened together with Christ in this resurrection.
“But God…even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:4–6).
As the first creation has one man as its federal head (Adam) so also has the new creation the man, Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:15). The first creation received its sinful nature from its federal head, Adam. The new creation receives its righteous nature from its federal head, the man, Jesus Christ, for “by the obedience of one, many shall be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19). In each case, the nature of the creation depends upon the act of the head. It does not depend upon the acts of those who issue from the head.
As the unalterable law of the first creation is sin unto death, so the law of the new creation is grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life. The law of the new creation is even more unalterable than that of the first creation.
“For if by one man’s offence, death reigned by one: much more they which received abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:17).
Since the head of the new creation cannot be condemned (Rom. 6:9–10), the members cannot be condemned. To be saved is to be rebirthed into the new creation under the law of righteousness unto eternal life. If one who has been re-birthed can be un-birthed, it must be possible to bring him back into his original position in the old creation. That is impossible! To say this could happen would contradict Jesus’ own words: “He that heareth my words and believeth on him that sent me…shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24). Furthermore, for everyone that is in the new creation, the old has passed away (2 Cor. 5:17). There can be no return to it. To say a saved person, one who has been quickened (rebirthed) together with Christ, can be lost is to reject completely God’s teachings concerning His new creation.
For the most part, in Christianity today, we have a religious idea that a new creature means we are an old person made better. Because Christians do not understand the birthing, they keep this idea that they are getting better; however, it was never God’s intention that we be better. It was never God’s intention that we be good on our own. We have missed the point, and that is why we fail as Christians. That is why we are not steady, nor do we quit our sinning. Our thinking and actions do not change because there is no concept change. A Christian is not a changed person; he has a totally exchanged life! That is what “new creation” means.
You may have thought life was the way you lived; but the life, the only life there is, is in the Son. Some theologians who write translations from the Greek have another translation of that verse that says, “If any man be in Christ he is a new race of people.” That translation fits what the Scriptures teach. As you read the Scriptures, they say we are strangers and sojourners; we are not a part of this earth at all. We are a heavenly people and were never intended to be earthly people. We are an entirely new race of people, but we have no understanding of that. How do you get to be a new race of people? You have to be birthed by a father, but it cannot be the same father you had in the previous race. To be of a new race of people you have to have a father who is of that race. God does not change us from one thing to another; He has an entirely new race of people on this earth who are not earthly but are heavenly. When you understand the birthing, you understand the lifeline of 2 Corinthians 5:17, “Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” We are a new race of people because the old has passed away. Most Christians do not understand this truth and that is why the world is not flocking to Christianity. The liberating secret of Christianity is still in God because we have not allowed the Holy Spirit to reveal it to us.
Paul said these truths were once hidden from apostles and prophets but are now made known by the Spirit. The writer of Hebrews said in Hebrews 1:1–2 that in the last days, God will no longer speak through prophets but by His Son. This is so because they are a new race of people. They are not old people that have accepted Jesus as their Savior; they are re-birthed people. If you really knew that, your life would be radically changed by that knowledge. You would know the only life you now live is Christ. You would know there is only life in the Son. You would know the only way you have life is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. If you understood the essence and the power of that, it would change your world, your mind and your ideas. It would change your health, your problems and your marriage. I am not talking about being a “good Christian” because I do not think you can be a good Christian. I am not talking about being holy because I do not think you can be holy. I am talking about a birthing. I am talking about something God has done in you. God put someone in you who made the difference, who made you different in character and person than you ever dreamed you were. You have been born again.
In John 3:7, Jesus said you must be born again, and not until the next to the last epistle written in the Bible is that statement ever used again. In fact, it is only used twice in the Bible. In 1 Peter 1:23 it says, “Being born again not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible.” You are birthed in the natural because a father and a mother cohabited. They performed an act of love; and, as a result, the father put his seed in the mother, and that seed is another person.
There is nothing a mother can do to bring about that other person aside from the father’s seed. The mother may have cohabited; she may give herself; she may genetically give her ovum to encompass that seed and bring out genetic effects in that person created, but that mother cannot produce another person by herself. It is done by the father’s seed. What did Jesus mean when He said, You must be born again? He literally said there must be another father in the picture because only fathers produce fruit. Mothers cannot produce fruit; they only bear it. Believers cannot produce fruit; they are mothers who can only bear the seed that is put in them. You cannot produce a Christian life. I do not care how many times you are baptized, how many churches you join, how many times you make commitments, how many times you consecrate yourself, how many times you go to the altar, how much good work you do; as a believer, you cannot do any good works to please the Father. There is nothing you can do to produce Christ-likeness or the Christ-life. You must start with that fact. There are many things you will do, but there is nothing you can do to produce that seed. The seed has to come from a father. That is what Peter is saying in 1 Peter 1:23. He says you are born again by the Father putting His seed in you.
Let me tell you what happened the instant you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. First, you need to understand that all you needed to do was believe. Acts 16:31 says, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved.” The instant you believed, you cohabited with another Father; and that Father, in an act of love, birthed in you His dear Son. That birthing is an act of love. Notice in 1 Peter 1:23 he said, “Being born again not of corruptible seed.” The new creation race was introduced in that verse. The corruptible seed is what happened to you when your natural mother and father came together. When your natural father planted a seed in your mother, you were birthed in corruption. Because of that, you came into this world a sinner with a sin-nature needing a Savior. You were unable to save or redeem yourself. The corruptible seed is the old life and not the life we now live. The life we now live is Christ because He has been birthed in us. This truth is explained more completely in 2 Peter 1:4: “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature.”
There are a number of things to be said about this verse. How is it this awesome event of another Father birthing in you another person takes place? It takes place by what you believe. How did you become a sinner? You became a sinner because your forefather believed what the Devil said. In the Garden of Eden, the progenitor of the human race had God’s Word available along with what Satan had said. Instead of believing God, he believed the Devil and thereby took on Satan’s nature so that every child he produced had Satan’s nature. That is why the Scripture says, “Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble” (Job 14:1). In sin did our mothers conceive us. How did that happen? Because Satan planted the thought in Adam’s mind that if you eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you will be as your own god (Gen. 3:5). You would not need almighty God; you will be your own god. Sinners believe they are their own person and can do their own thing. That is from the old nature. Peter said because we believe the promises of God, we have become partakers of a new nature.
Notice what Peter said in both of the verses we have looked at. In 1 Peter 1:23 he says, “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God.” We are born again by the Word of God. We are not born again by a preacher, by baptism, by joining a church, by doing good works or by trying; we are born again by the Word of God. This all happens by believing. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved.” Look at what Peter says in 2 Peter 1:4: “Whereby are given to us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature.”
By God’s Word (the precious promises) you are a partaker of the divine nature. Another Father put His nature in you. That means the nature of God is in the seed, and the seed is the life, and the life is Christ, Christ in you. How did you get Christ in you? By believing what the Scripture said you became a partaker of the same nature of God. Do you know why people keep sinning and doing their own thing? They do not know who they are. No one has ever taught the birthing to them. They think they are getting better, or they are going to get better or will do right tomorrow, but that is false thinking.
When you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, the Father put His perfect Son in you. You may not live like it, talk like it, act like it, or believe it because you do not understand the birthing. Religion and Satan have been instrumental in confusing us. We have not been preaching the Word. We do not preach what God did! Multitudes of people waver back and forth between sin and righteousness because they do not know God’s righteousness is in them. Every time you open your mouth to say a vile word, if you knew the only life in you is Christ, what would happen in what you say? The problem is not sin but rather not really believing Christ has been birthed in you! You have no concept that God’s nature is in you. If you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, God put His seed in you. That is how simple it was when you were born again.
After Christ has been birthed in you, the Father will not depend on you at all; He will depend on His Son in you. As you walk on this earth, He will not depend on you acting righteous, He will depend on Christ in you, your hope of glory—that is the gospel. You have been lied to by religion and told that you need to be better, you need to put it all together, you need to get it under control, but that is a lie because you cannot do it. But the nature God put in you was God, the Son. You are partakers of His divine nature, and Christ can and will do what you cannot.
Conclusion
In this article, I have detailed how the Bible defines the word birthing for us. The most ironic thing in the Scriptures is that the Apostle Paul never used the expression born again, let alone the word birthing. John paralleled our new birth with natural birth by saying God so loved that He committed an act of cohabitation with the sinner. When the Apostle Paul had his revelation of Christ in him, he saw something John never saw, nor did Jesus of Nazareth comment on. When it was revealed to him that Christ was in him, the Apostle Paul saw it as a great mystery, which is truly what it is.
The religious world has thrown the term born again around without proper explanation. Paul said it is a mystery that goes far beyond comprehension; therefore, it would have to be revealed to you.
“Eye hath not seen nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him, but God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit” (1 Cor. 2:9–10).
In this article, I have brought out in John’s writings what the birthing means, but that is not worth a nickel to you until you have a revelation of it. A preacher can say that we are born again, but that is not the gospel. The gospel is not something that happened to us as an experience. The gospel is Christ in us. Paul said we are in Christ 146 times. The final understanding of this must come through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works in our soul to bring our soul to understand Christ in us. That is why the power you receive when you are filled with the Holy Spirit is in this knowing. Jesus said He (the Holy Spirit) would not speak of anything but Christ when He comes. The birthing is what Christianity is all about. V
Christ-life Fellowship
PO Box 170307 Dallas, TX 75217-0307 USA
litzman@christ-life.org 214-391-0488
Webservant
Christinyou
Is this the same Warren Litzman that you are reffering to?
Yes Josh, Dr. Litzman is who Mr. Stanford is speaking about. Mr. Stanford wrote his, "POLEMIC/PERSONS" about Dr. Litzman about 15 years ago. I have studied them both and You could use either one of them to answer your question of "name one". Their dispensational theology is the same, the life in Christ is the same, their new birthing and new nature in Christ are the same. They only have one difference and that is; "as" Christ Mr. Stanford has quoted in his Polemic of Dr. Litzman. Mr. Stanford is wrong, Dr. Litzman has changed as to like, Dr Litzman understands "as" was the lie of the devil. "Like" being of like nature of Christ by the birthing of Christ in the new believer, that is, we are like God by His Nature born again in us unto a new creation race of the Children of God by Jesus Christ, by no stretch of the imagination are we gods or as gods. There is only one God in three natures and three manifestations of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The Father, the life giver, The Son the redeemer and procures that life for the believer and the Holy
Spirit the Power and Teacher of That Life. If you study Mr. Stanford and Dr. Litzman you will see they almost agree on everything when it comes to the process of being birthed by God the Father by the Christ that is in us. Their escotology is the same their rapture agreement and the ruling of Christ and His Bride in the Millennium are the same and the separation of The Kingdom of God for Israel and the Grace Kingdom of Christ for His Bride the Church His Body, also. They both use the statement of their writing being for "Hungry Hearts" wanting the truth of "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".
The only reason I did not suggest Mr. Stanford instead of Dr. Litzman for your question, "name one" is I don't life Mr. Stanford's arrogance in his "POLEMIC/PERSONS" article. Would it have made any difference? I think not.
Study this one and you will see what I mean.
http://withchrist.org/MJS/neodisp.htm
In Christ: Phillip
I talked to Dr. Litzman the other day. Back in the old days he use to run with some groups connected to us. He use to preach with Jack Coe, A. A. Allen and had met one of my friends Paul Cain. I really do not know much about these teachings he embraced that separated close fellowship. I did not want to say anything negative for he seemed to be a man of God when I talked to him.
Josh
I talked to Warren day before yesterday asking if he had a study guide for his book entitled "Paul". He said he was considering it.
If you trust Stanford, you can trust Warren. They sound the same when they preached and they write the same. Different personalities but the same Spirit. I have been with Warren for six years while he was making stops in Sacrament Ca, and now subscribe to his "Church in the Home". He is still growing just like the rest of us. He and Miles, who is no longer with us are two of my favorite mentors when it comes to Paul and the Church the Body of Christ. May the Greatest Mentor, The Blessed Holy Spirit, teacher of Christ that is birthed in us richly bless you in the New Year.
In Christ: Phillip
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