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Judgment is coming to America!

G
GloryCloud

I listened to the message above by Leonard Ravenhill... awesome message...


Several months ago, the Lord spoke, even from his Word, "Mass slaughter. Mass Slaughter is coming". He started revealing scriptures during prayer time that revealed exactly what I heard.

"10 Thus saith the LORD unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the LORD doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins.

11Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.

12When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the SWORD, and by the FAMINE, and by the PESTILENCE."

His Words grew louder and louder during prayer. Ever since then, I thought I was completely false and crazy. To make a long story short, I wanted to tell you one dream. In the dream, there was complete darkness and the Bible shown forth a bright light. Out of the light proceeded the words, “NAHUM”.

The Lord has been warning you for years! He sent His prophets, His servants, His labourers, His signs and wonders! What would get America to see? If we were to see Isaiah walk naked and barefoot for three years among our shores, would America turn and repent? He has revealed Himself to you! America, you have turned away from Him and you have trusted in your idols of money, covetousness and wealth! Oh the burden of America! For our God is a jealous God! America is controlled by the devil. The ancient spirits of Babylon, primarily the devil, controls America. Our loving God that is slow to anger and great in power. The Lord takes vengeance on his enemies; He reserves His wrath for His enemies. “The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.” God can either cause the fire of God to fall upon us, even as it consumed the offerings in front of the prophets of Baal. The fire of a Holy God must fall upon us but it won’t consume us. The other response is His fury to be poured out as fire upon us. With an “an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.” An end is drawing near. The fire “fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.” He burns the briers and the thorns even in one day. His anger is not turned away, for it is stretched out still. In time, there will arise an evil counselor, an evil leader that brings forth wrong advice. We may appear united and patriotic but we can be cut down in pride and shame. He will cut off our graven images! He can take away our riches and bring famine and desolation in a day! We need our labourers to speak forth the gospel of peace and truth. Even if we look at Nineveh, they were warned and they repented! Isn’t this reminiscent of you, America, on September 11? At the time of destruction, we joined ourselves unto God, unto patriotism. That was only for a season. America, don’t reach the place where God says, PRAY NO MORE FOR THE GOOD OF AMERICA! STOP SPEAKING, OH MESSENGERS OF GOD. COME OUT OF AMERICA, OH REMNANT OF GOD. Turn to God and repent! Turn away from your idols of money and covetousness! The Lord can bring another nation against you, who will plunder you of your numerous silver and gold. America, you think that you are rich, that you are increased of much goods! But you are poor and wretched. You are fat. The Lord can empty you and shake your land and your sea! You can be put to complete shame and confusion. The Lord can send mass slaughter (holocaust) unto you! I even speak the word, “overthrow”. Woe unto America! Woe even unto the nations of the earth! You are a harlot! Repent and turn away from your sins! Because of your many harltotries and witchcrafts! There are two things that can come against you: the loss of children and widowhood. You trust in your wickedness! It has led you astray! America, you can be put to shame, you can brought down that even the nations are astounded at your fall! The God who closed the mouth of the lions in the lion’s den can allow the lion, the devil to sift you as wheat! You will fear for the things that will come to you! God can bring you into captivity! He can send the cankerworm, the caterpillar to eat of your fruit! You have not been healed because of the lies spoken to you. America sleeps, the shepards sleep. The Lord can simply speak to a nation and cause that nation to come against you. God can send floods to bring breaches into America. If God opens your gates and takes down the hedge, woe unto America! "A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations." You shall even become as serpents, cast down and crawling upon your stomach upon the ground. Even your strength shall be cast down to the ground.

Our God is a merciful God and He’s pleading with America, He’s pleading with America, Return unto me. Turn away from your wicked Way. Repent, repent. He loves us. He wants the Spirit of the Lord to be poured out upon us. He wants the Glory of God to be revealed in America. Our hope is in Jesus Christ! The Lord wants to bring restoration to America! He wants to heal our hurt!

S
sermonindex

Talking about America, sister, I just read that, according to research, across the 52 countries of Europe, fewer than 4 people in 1,000 know Jesus as Lord and Savior. Only 4 tenths of one percent!

May the Lord have mercy on us! Let us pray for those that will come to know Him.

"I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." John 17:9

In Christ,
Slavyan

S
sermonindex

Sorry. I've obviously submitted the same message twice... As I thought about America, Europe, the world though, I remembered how the Lord Jesus had compassion on the multitudes when he saw that they were like sheep without a shepherd. And this is what the world is like, sheep gone astray. It grieves our Lord. It grieves those who know His heart. The whole world He created with His own hands! ...

In Christ,
Slav

B
brentw

Slavyan....are you giving percentages ;-)

Judgement has already come and is still coming..."they shall eat the fruit of their own ways".
Now we could talk about the intesity of judgement if you like.

G
GloryCloud

Hiii! it's so nice to meet you! Thanks for the comment!

S
sermonindex

Judgement has already begun. False prophets abound. False teachers tickle the ears of the multitudes. Peace, Peace! is the message that is false. "We are laden and abound with good and riches" is the confession of the North American church yet Christ will ask have you counselled of me to "buy"?

Unless the church repents and seeks God final judgement will fall on america. It is not the worldlings that need to repent and cry out to God but the fat, lazy, church that does not see its condition and need.

S
sermonindex

Why is it always America that needs to repent? The whole world needs to repent.

J-bird

I'll just kindly answer my own question. Because the whole world HATES AMERICA!!!!

S
sermonindex

Judgment is coming to America!

The title of the thread was directed towards America. Another fact is that America has the "most light" (bible teachings, sermons, etc) far beyond the rest of the world. Per Capita it has more professional preachers over 250,000, seminaries, schools, organisations, tape ministries, etc. Yet it is the most wicked nation with unrighteousness abounding out of it across the world.

You are very right brother that the Church world-wide needs to repent. But also on sermonindex.net there is over 70% of the viewers that are from America. I believe is is very important for America to have revival, it will affect much of the church worldwide.

S
sermonindex

Yet it is the most wicked
It depends on your view of wickedness. Drugs? What countrys supply those drugs? Opiets come from the middle east, cocaine comes from South America. Alcohol? Europe is one of the biggest exporters of alcohol. Prostitution? Russia, Tai Land, and Mexico are much worse than America. Murder? Depends on if you mean the government murdering citizens, or the citizens murdering other citizens?

J-bird

M
Mekdi

J-bird

I’m not an American in fact I am an African far far from you. Of course all the church in this generation needs repentance. But let me tell you why America needs it-You first have to know why God established this nation lately. God founded this nation to be the preserver of the true Gospel. When all the world go corrupt and the truth of God was sold for rituals especially in Europe-God founded America to be a land where he can find a people to be a steward of his truth. Look at your founding fathers- Have you ever seen any political leader taking time to insert the law of God in its constitution?! Have you ever seen a parliament who give God an importance so that it take the time and trouble to print God’s name on its money! Is God an agenda at all in political meetings-but your founding fathers seemed to get God’s heart-they take the time and trouble to establish God’s name everywhere in their nation. God meant America to be the keeper of the truth-the mother of the poor- Much is given to this nation so much is expected from it. As Israel was the steward of God’s law in the old testament- America was meant to be the steward of Christ’s gospel for this modern time sending out missionaries, material and everything for the rest of the world-For the first centuries after its establishment it seemed to do that but now it is a different story. It is sending it’s bad influence all over the world morally. Where is Hollywood? Where does the greatest pornography industry exist? Who is the founder of Playboy? …..e.t.c. I think no nation has an obligation for the gospel as America does that’s why God has to deal with her harshly-She has to come back to her original purpose of establishment-Don’t be mistaken I love America it’s not because everybody hates America that this is said-Anybody who has the Spirit of God in him will not hate America but the zeal of God will burn in him for America-I truly has zeal for this nation-I want her back to her feet again! I want her back to her original purpose again! No matter what it takes-be it judgment or whatever it takes let it come to this nation-let God not leave her for her abomination, for her own ways let God take over! Let God’s time come for America! Let him say ‘ENOUGH’ And brother please be humble don’t say why America? This question is irrelevant right now just consider your own nation and your own ways be humble and ask God to come to your nation! This is my prayer for America! If we Ethiopians see other nations we would never follow God! If we ask why us Lord? why the war, the poverty, the pestilence if we say why? We would never follow the Lord-I know one thing I’m created Ethiopian and Ethiopia is the most miserable country in the world but ‘THE JUDGE OF THE WHOLE EARTH IS RIGHT!” I with all my heart humbly believe the wrong lies within us and our fathers not in God so I feel repentant I don’t ask God "Why Ethiopia?"It would be a joke if I have that question! You never ask God why? He is al-rounded pure and just! So as an American, please ask the Lord your part in his work without justifying America! We don't have to measure ourselves by ourselves (nation with a nation) but measure yourself with God and you will find the answer! A humble heart is the only way out right now for all of us!

Y
Yeshuasboy


J-bird wrote:
It depends on your view of wickedness. Drugs? What countrys supply those drugs? Opiets come from the middle east, cocaine comes from South America. Alcohol? Europe is one of the biggest exporters of alcohol. Prostitution? Russia, Tai Land, and Mexico are much worse than America. Murder? Depends on if you mean the government murdering citizens, or the citizens murdering other citizens?
J-bird

My brother J-bird,
I know that your quote is not directed towards me; however, I would like to make a quick comment....
I have noticed throughout the years through the study of the Holy Scriptures and church history, reformation period etc, that man's concept of sin and what God says sin is are almost complete opposites, that throughout hundreds od years the meaning of sin has changed to more of what man's interpretation is and not God's. God doesn't change. the message of sin has changed... the message of repentance has changed...the entire Holy Word of God is changing into man's interpretation. Man can seem to take sin lightly, while God is holy, and hates sin so much that He sent Jesus to die in our place, so sin wouldn't have reign over us, etc, etc.
Speaking for myself dear brother, I want to have a greater revelation from God that I may see sin as He sees sin...that I may flee from it and not give the devil any foothold. I have grieved the Lord enough in my life...and the more I know about sin...the truth about it, as God tells it...I believe, the more responsible I am to God, to myself, and to others to live in the light of that truth.
Yes, there is sin everywhere...yes, it crouches at the door, but by the grace of God alone through faith in Christ, the standard of what constitutes as sin will be raised to God's standard...the world will persecute the true church because they hate the true Light... I pray for His standard to go forth in my life today, regardless of what others say...a true Biblical standard of what it is to be a Christ-like and not 21st century church-like. How can I witness with my mouth, if my life, my deeds don't back it up?..surely then my faith will be in vain. Thank God for His word...when I read it, His word gives me a different picture of sin , as how many churches describe it today...even how my flesh tries to describe it to me...But, i am crucified with Christ....(Gal 2:20)
Judgement is coming...and it begins at the house of God does it not?
Woe unto me if I donot strive after holiness all the days of my life, or say, Lord, Lord, but donot do what Christ Jesus requires of me. Christ in me is holy, so I must continually learn to submit to Him in all things, denying myself, taking up my crosses...He will always lead me to victory and never sin. Oh, may I keep in step with the Holy Spirit.
Brethren, I desire and ask for your prayers. Please forgive me if I have to a degree gotten off course to the original post.
richie

J
JaySaved

I agree with J-bird.

Why single out America? I agree that we have a lot of junk in this country, but we also have a lot of God given good in this country.

Going to Africa on a mission trip recently opened my eyes to how great God has blessed...and continues to bless...America!

G
GloryCloud

Look at my own nation first...

A
aeberly1798

If judgment doesn't come to America, she will be lost forever! Similar to GloryCloud, the Lord has also been warning me for the last two years about pending judgment on this nation.

In fact, a week ago today, as I was going about my job, I suddenly felt impressed to stop everything and be still before the Lord. I obeyed this prompting and shut my office door. Yahweh then began to speak the following words...

"A collapse is coming to this nation, which will make Black Thursday look mild. A double portion of my judgment will be allotted to you O' Babylon for the luxuries that you have lavished on yourself. My people will NOT escape this judgment, because it will fall on the heathen and righteous alike. But there will again be a distinction between the righteous and the wicked, because only my sheep will turn to me and the wicked will turn to the arm of the flesh and continue to do wickedly. The trap has already been set and I will not relent. Even if Moses, Elijah, and Daniel prayed for this nation, I would not spare it. I have given her ample time to repent, but she has spurned her day of correction and sought after idols instead. Woe to this people who cling to and love the world and continue to grip and hold onto the things devoted to destruction. I grieve and lament that I must do this, but my name is Holy and I cannot be mocked. Stand up my people and be accounted for, so that you may receive the mark (seal of God) on your forehead and be spared. Make your calling and election sure while there is still time, because the days are short. The time has already been appointed and I will not delay for any reason."

At this point, I asked the Lord how long it would be, and I heard him say that it would be within two years.

The Lord continued to speak the following, "See, I am coming with the clouds and every eye will see me. Even those who pierced me. Selah. You are in the beginning of the end. My time clock has already started. Be strong and courageous my child. You will see and marvel at the day I come to you. Stand not far off, but come near to me and I will hide you in the cleft of the rock. Your life is hidden with Me in Yahweh."

I debated whether or not I should post this word, but the Lord immediately reminded me of the following verse in Matthew 10:27, which reads, "What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs."

May those that have ears, hear what the Spirit is saying. The Lord has already stopped me from praying deliverance for this nation. In fact, he has me praying for judgment. Specifically, I pray Psalm 9:19-20, which reads, "Arise, O Lord, let not man triumph; let the nations be judged in your presence. Strike them with terror, O Lord; let the nations know they are but men."

If God does not judge America, she is lost forever as an illegitimate child. Please read the following article from Michael Bodea Jr. about God chastening His children.

When God Chastens Part 1
December 12, 2006
“There cannot be greater evidence of God’s hatred and wrath – than His refusing to correct men for their sinful courses and vanities! Where God refuses to correct, there, God resolves to destroy! There is no man so near God’s axe, so near the flames, so near hell, as he whom God will not so much as spend a rod upon! God is most angry, when He shows no anger!” – Thomas Brooks

“The constant cry of the rod is, ‘be dead to the profits, pleasures, honors, and applauses of the world! Be dead to everything below a living Jesus.” – Thomas Brooks

We look upon the landscape of the human condition with awe and wonderment To the naked eye, it would seem that some who ought to be enduring the greatest of torments are prospering and living carefree lives, while others whom we would deem as deserving some measure of relief, are pressed down even further, suffering unimaginable cruelties at the hands of others, never able to hold their heads above water for more than a few seconds before they are dragged back into the deep

If we were to process such events through the prism of human reason, we would inevitably come to the conclusion that we are living in an unjust world, where evil men prosper, while good men are left to die If not for the reassurance we have in the Word of God, wherein He tells us that His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts, we would behold the reward of the deceivers of this present age, and perhaps begin to murmur, or in the least feel a sense of injustice at what is transpiring

The ways of God surpass human reason, and this is a truth that remains undeniable from age to age In order to see reality as God sees it, we must perceive it from God’s point of view Yes, to the human eye, processed by the human mind, it would seem that the wicked are being rewarded for their wickedness, the deceivers are prospering, and the hypocrites are growing rich from their constant fleecing of the flock, but it is not so There should never be a greater moment of utter terror in the life of a believer, than knowing he has done something worthy of chastening or reproof, is left uncorrected I realize this flies in the face of modern doctrines, wherein if you are going through a trial, a chastening or are rebuked of God, you are no longer beloved of God, that you have somehow become irredeemable, that the only way to truly know you are saved, is that you prosper financially, that all is well, and that you have no trials or afflictions, but leaving homespun doctrine aside, let us see what the Bible says concerning these things

Nothing is more dangerous or lamentable, than a man who thinks himself on sure ground, having a sure footing, when all the while he is standing in quicksand It is such with those who have rejected the sovereign truth of God’s words, in lieu of men’s fables, no longer wondering why God has not corrected the sin they know to be in their hearts, but merrily banging the tambourine singing along to ‘it is well, with my soul’, knowing all the while, that it is anything but well

One of the greatest frauds and outright lies perpetrated upon Christendom in our modern age, is that God’s primary desire, His primary purpose is to prosper us The truth of the matter, the ultimate truth, is that God’s primary desire and purpose, is to sanctify us, to bond us unto Himself that we may be together with Him in eternity All else pales, and is irrelevant; all else takes second place whether it be our comfort, health or prosperity

Hebrews 12:5-6, “And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: ‘My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.”

The tragedy of forgetfulness is that often times we do not remember when it was that we forgot When was it that we forgot, that God spoke to us as to sons, that in our times of chastening and rebuke, He whispered it is because I love you, because I have received you?

A child readily forgets the advice, admonition and lessons of his parents, and so must constantly be reminded of them, that they may be kept at the forefront of his mind, and act accordingly when he comes in contact with that of which his parents forewarned It is the same from a spiritual standpoint, our heavenly Father continually warning us through His Word, as well as other means, to flee from sin, to turn away from deception, reminding us that only in His loving embrace, under the shadow of His wing, will we find the peace and safety we so desperately seek

God knows that man is a forgetful creature, He knows that as little children tend to do, we get distracted by bright shiny objects, we choose disobedience over obedience, and even though we may be aware that His way is the better way, our stubbornness does not permit us to surrender ourselves, and give Him the rightful place in our hearts Above all else, these are the reasons that God constantly reminds us, pointing us to the right path, guiding us, and if we allow Him, even taking us by the hand It is because of man’s nature, that God must constantly contend with him, reminding him always that He is a God of expectation, even though we may already know these things, and even be established in them

2 Peter 1:12, “Therefore I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know them, and are established in the present truth.”

There are times, in God’s attempts of getting our attention where gentle persuasion has no affect, and as a good Father, the means which he employs to bring us aright, are somewhat unpleasant for us His children Although the means may vary, God’s reason for chastening is always the same, to reform, and to restore us, to turn our hearts back to Him, and cause us to seek His face in an atmosphere of repentance God’s desire is always to draw us ever closer to Him

Faith receives and accepts, with peace and trust any trial that comes upon it, it is at ease even in the most desperate of situations for it knows above all else that all that unfolds and comes upon it is from the hand of God Faith trusts God’s intent, it knows His will and desire are only the best for His children, no matter what may come

When faith is absent from a heart however, when the man toward which a chastening or rebuke may be directed is not wholly surrendered, trusting in God, the sense of unease and the desire to rebel against the trial through which he is going, is often overwhelming The man absent of faith, will despise the chastening of the Lord, he will perceive it with loathing and scorn, thinking himself unjustly rebuked or reprimanded

In order to hinder God from perfecting His plan for our lives, the enemy often attempts to tempt believers into despising the chastening of the Lord, blinding them to the truth that God chastens those He loves, and scourges every son whom He receives If the enemy can accomplish this, if he can persuade us to despise the chastening of the Lord, to resist it, or by our own means attempt to avoid it, he will have succeeded in keeping us from living in God’s perfect will If we do not recognize and acknowledge the hand of God at work in our lives, if we cannot discern the correction and discipline of God for what they are, then we will not have learned the lesson He was attempting to teach us, or receive the blessing the chastening was supposed to have brought

It is easy to say we must learn to love the rod of God, but it is much harder to reach that point, that level of maturity wherein we love it in actuality Only once he is grown can a child see not only the reasons for the discipline he endured at the hands of his father, but also the affects the discipline had, and the final outcome of it all, wherein he was the better for it

When God uses his rod to chasten and rebuke us, it is a sign that He loves us, proof that He cares enough to correct us It is the means by which the evil that would otherwise take root in our hearts is dealt with, and God’s way of revealing certain errors in our walk God does not correct out of anger, or hatred, but out of love If this is the prism by which we view His correction, rather than murmur, we will be thankful, rather than resent the correction, we will welcome it with open arms

No man desires correction or rebuke from God, but if we know ourselves to have sinned, and do not see God’s chastening, it should be infinitely more worrisome and troubling, than to feel God’s rod of correction It would be better for God to punish or rebuke us if needed, than to leave us in a deplorable condition Yes, it is infinitely better that God chasten, than allow us to wander down a path of sin and rebellion The correction, the rebuke, the chastening, is a sign that His love has not left us, that we have not been forsaken No matter what we would go through, we must always remember, whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives

One of the fondest memories of my childhood is going to the family apple orchard in the summer and picking apples During one of the family outings to the orchard, my uncle Cornel came along, and as he made his way through the apple trees he would stop by some, and begin to shake the tree He was a large man, and as he shook the tree, the apples that had rotted on the branches would fall to the earth When I asked him why he was shaking the trees, he smiled and said, ‘only the good apples deserve to stay on the branches, the rotten ones are useless.’

Sometimes God shakes the tree, symbolically speaking, that the unclean things may fall by the wayside He allows suffering in the midst of a congregation, that those living in hypocrisy, may quickly remove themselves from the body, and in the life of the individual, that those things which still remain that are a hindrance to our relationship with God may be removed

A trial, or a chastening in an individual’s life also has the blessed purpose of causing us to examine ourselves and see how truly living grace is for us, to us, and in us Those who are attached to the branches, harboring ulterior motives, those who are dishonest as to their reason for being in the house of God, those whose intent is not to worship at the foot of the cross, but merely to hold out their hand in the hopes of receiving some material thing, readily fall to the ground once the shaking commences Only those whose intentions are pure, those whose grace is a living entity in their hearts, those who are wholly surrendered and committed to the will of God can withstand the shaking

If we persist with the analogy of a tree and its fruit a while longer, we begin to see that the shaking thereof, the trials that come in the life of the individual are as a welcome relief and blessing, for it eases the burden on the entire tree, and aids the good fruit, when the rotten fruit are torn free and scattered to the ground If left unchecked, the bad fruit can endanger not only the good fruit in its vicinity, but the entire tree itself It is far better for God to strip us of the dangerous sins, habits, vices, and traditions, even if for a season it may be painful, then leaving us to the desire of our heart, these things having polluted the entire body, cut us off altogether

We grow rich in God, every time we are stripped of imagined virtues The stripping off of dirty rags, is the first step to being made clean, and what else can we equate imitated and counterfeit gifts to, than the dirty worthless rags that they are, worthless things, worthy of being cast into the fire?

If we perceive chastening and correction in this context, we begin to see the good that comes of it, we begin to realize that they make us beautiful in the sight of God, bringing us ever closer to being the mirror image of Christ Just as rotted fruit, still clinging to the branches give a tree an unpleasant appearance, imagined virtues are a stain to the souls of men, a stain in the eyes of God, and in the eyes of our fellow men

Too many today are content with merely a form of godliness, having its image but far removed from its substance, and while for now, they are able to coexist with those who seek true godliness, the day will come when the absence of life, the weakness of their bond to the source of life, will cause them to despise God’s correction, for in their lifeless state they did not perceive the blessing that would transpire once the trial had passed

Every trial in the life of a child of God, is meant to teach us something, it is intended as discipline, and discipline is a manifestation of love, proof of God’s parental concern for His children, it is the means by which God often calls us to come out of the world that we may run to Him, trust Him, to believe in His grace, mercy, and love

If only we would understand, once and for all, that God is not concerned or preoccupied with our comfort level here on earth, whether or not we are rich, whether or not we feel good about ourselves, His only concern is our sanctification and consecration, that we may be with Him in eternity, that we may inherit the Kingdom, and receive the crown of life

God’s correction, His chastening and even His rebuke should not be received by us as a disappointment, or hurtful thing, we cannot perceive them as God’s rejection, but rather as the blessings that they are intended to be, for it is the undeniable proof that we have been received, and we are loved

With love in Christ,
Michael Boldea Jr.

S
sermonindex

I think what it really boils down to is that many people WANT America to be judged because their jealous of the freedom, and prosperity of our country.

Hollywood is a very small minority of perverted, devil possesed people who most of us don't pay attention to anyway. People forget that 90% of California is farmland. Yes, hollywood is bad but they don't get my money. I think I can speak for many christians and even non-christians. Hollywood has lost touch with it's audience and many of us don't even watch their garbage. I don't take resposibility for what they produce. If people would boycott their filth than we would'nt have to worry about it. The problem is not Hollywood, or Playboy it's this weak, immoral generation that the parents have produced. If parents would do their job than we would'nt be in the shape were in.

J-bird

I
IRONMAN

bro J-Bird

I think what it really boils down to is that many people WANT America to be judged because their jealous of the freedom, and prosperity of our country.

this is far from the truth (at least in my case) because in all truth judgement is a time of purging, and brother we need purging...every one of us. i desire the judgement to come on the whole world so that those of us who are His will be complelled to repent. also judgement begins with us who are Christians because we hold the standard. The Lord chastens those He loves so let us be chastened and suffer for a season rather than suffer for all eternity.i think what bro Greg said earlier about how the majority of people on s.i. reside in this country is important. i feel that as a result of this, there is a great burden on some of us for the sake of our nation hence we sound the warnings of the coming judgement. For those who live in other places, our Lord will speak to them concerning those nations. since most here on s.i. live here, the majority of such warnings will be about america since judgement here will affect us immediately and more acutely as opposed to judgements elsewhere. i have a brother i am in touch with in canada and he has been shown judgements coming to that nation so this is not restricted to america.

i oft here people talk about freedom here and this freedom is an illusion. it is in fact bondage. there is but 1 true freedom and that is in Christ. i was reading tortured for Christ and in that i saw what true freedom is. those dear saints in the communist, islamist and other such vile states [i][b]have freedom and are free[/b][/i] how is this so. They are so enraptured with Christ that their circumstances are of no consequence because they are really seated in heavenly places. do you know my brethren, that to these saints, the gospel has a gravity which we can't appreciate? do you know fellow saints that to them Christ really is all because they have nothing else? dear brethren therein is true freedom! to be so unbound from the world as to suffer such things with joy! brethren think on this, in the former covenant, sacrifices had to be made perpetually for all sorts of things to appease God. in the same way the "freedom" which we are told we have in democracies and so on need to be maintained by the blood of men because they have been bought by the blood of men.this leaves us in bondage to that. this however is a necessary thing else it would not be so. but let us not be deceived, this is not freedom, Christ is freedom in the truest sense because once one receives Christ and grows in Him, one is no longer concerned with the things of the world as he once was.

on the properity of our nation, that is largely another myth. the vast majority of people have a net worth of $50,000 or less. of those almost all are heavily in debt in the pursuit of this so called american dream which has become a nightmare for many. men and women both slave at work for many hours to pay bills and can never seem to get caught up, this is the nature of life for the vast majority of us, so how can that be prosperity? it is bondage! people are in debt and can't save because we have so pursued our lusts and self-gratification to the point where indeed we are on the edge of an economic collapse which will be our undoing. the vast majority of trade is done in u.s. dollars but some nations are getting rid of their dollar reserves slowly in favour of the euro as the dollar weakens against it. our government is in such debt because of the deficit it is staggering! this is not prosperity in the least! this great deception is about to come undone very soon so for those who hear what our Lord is saying through His prophets and messengers concerning the coming judgement, REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE!!!

A
aeberly1798

If you think I WANT America to be judged you are badly mistaken. Even though God has established His throne with justice and is infinitely holy, He doesn't delight in the death of the wicked. Rather, He desires all men everywhere to repent. He is slow to anger, abounding in love, and his mercy triumphs over judgment. He is long-suffering towards us not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

If any one WANTS America to be judged, they have not been born of His Spirit and are born of their father the devil who seeks to steal, kill, and destroy. Do you think the prophets of old wanted judgment to come to Israel? Jeremiah prophesied in a time when Israel was prosperous and at peace. But just because everyone is crying 'peace and safety' doesn't mean that judgment will be avoided.

I have asked the Lord if He could give many any other word, but judgment. It is easy to tell people what their tickling ears want to hear, but His sheep hear his voice and will not follow another.

So no, I don't WANT America to be judged, but is it better to obey man rather than God? I feel like Jeremiah and respond with his words in Jeremiah 20:7-11,

7 O LORD, you deceived me, and I was deceived;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long; everyone mocks me.
8 Whenever I speak, I cry out
proclaiming violence and destruction.
So the word of the LORD has brought me
insult and reproach all day long.

9 But if I say, "I will not mention him
or speak any more in his name,"
his word is in my heart like a fire,
a fire shut up in my bones.
I am weary of holding it in;
indeed, I cannot.

10 I hear many whispering,
"Terror on every side!
Report him! Let's report him!"
All my friends
are waiting for me to slip, saying,
"Perhaps he will be deceived;
then we will prevail over him
and take our revenge on him."

11 But the LORD is with me like a mighty warrior; so my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will fail and be thoroughly disgraced; their dishonor will never be forgotten.


May the Lord bless you with His peace and understanding in these days.

J
JaySaved

GloryCloud and aeberly1798,
I do not know if the words you are speaking are true. I personally have not received the 'Word' that you have. So, I must compare your word to scripture.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22
20But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' 21And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?'-- 22when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

GloryCloud has written

Several months ago, the Lord spoke, even from his Word, "Mass slaughter. Mass Slaughter is coming". He started revealing scriptures during prayer time that revealed exactly what I heard.

aeberly1798 has written

If judgment doesn't come to America, she will be lost forever! Similar to GloryCloud, the Lord has also been warning me for the last two years about pending judgment on this nation.
In fact, a week ago today, as I was going about my job, I suddenly felt impressed to stop everything and be still before the Lord. I obeyed this prompting and shut my office door. Yahweh then began to speak the following words...
"A collapse is coming to this nation, which will make Black Thursday look mild. A double portion of my judgment will be allotted to you O' Babylon for the luxuries that you have lavished on yourself. My people will NOT escape this judgment, because it will fall on the heathen and righteous alike. But there will again be a distinction between the righteous and the wicked, because only my sheep will turn to me and the wicked will turn to the arm of the flesh and continue to do wickedly. The trap has already been set and I will not relent. Even if Moses, Elijah, and Daniel prayed for this nation, I would not spare it. I have given her ample time to repent, but she has spurned her day of correction and sought after idols instead. Woe to this people who cling to and love the world and continue to grip and hold onto the things devoted to destruction. I grieve and lament that I must do this, but my name is Holy and I cannot be mocked. Stand up my people and be accounted for, so that you may receive the mark (seal of God) on your forehead and be spared. Make your calling and election sure while there is still time, because the days are short. The time has already been appointed and I will not delay for any reason."
At this point, I asked the Lord how long it would be, and I heard him say that it would be within two years.

Biblically, if none of this happens within two years then you both are false prophets and may God have mercy on you for pretending to speak for him.

If this happens as you predict, then may God have mercy on us all.

I
IRONMAN

bro J-bird
in continuing from where we left off:

bro J-Bird you were in the service right? this makes your view on things largely from a nationalistic standpoint before seeing it through the eyes of God. brother our nation is ripe for judgement. of course the whole world is also but my concern is for this nation because we have been placed here by God hence the many pleas for repentance. i oft hear people on the right (as they are called and call themselves) like sean hannity, o'riley and some others who speak of there being evil in the world. i agree there is evil in the world but somehow it is limited to islamist fascism (whatever that is, i'm foggy of what it is) what about our own evil my brother? what about our own sin? do you honestly believe we are above God's reproach/judgement? do you believe God only sees the jihadists sin and not our own? indeed those men who flew planes into the towers got their just recompense, an eternity in hell, not so much for those they killed because all sin excpet 1 can be forgiven, but because they had not Christ. however let is be known that the irony in that is God gave us a taste of judgment on that day using unbelievers. if God did that to Israel and spared them not, do you think He will spare us? especially in the light of us being supposedly Christian? NO WAY, in fact the judgment will be that much harsher, see Hebrews 10 vs 29

[b]Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? [/b]

be not deceived brethren, God is not mocked. as surely as even the righteous suffered when God sent heathens against them (daniel, Jeremiah etc), so shall even the righteous now suffer for the sins of the nation along with the wicked. i agree with you bro J-bird that there are many good people here, but the same is true for the world but the world will be judged. are we somehow exempt because we are Americans?

there is evil in the world but there is evil right here at home too. right here in my own heart, and in yours and it must be purged by fire. Shall we look at the terrorists and point out there sin and neglect our own? do you think God smiles or is unaware of our adulteries, fornications, pornography,lying,stealing and cheating in the corperate world, idolatries of wealth, self our own perceived power, abortions, lusts, covetousness and other abominations? do you think that these things will go unnoticed or pass by without consequence? dare we point out the evils of others and negelect our own? worse yet not only neglect them but also somehow think we are exempt from any sort of recompense?

this very attitude is seeming to me more rampant as i converse with saints and i fear many saints will leave the faith on account of this. God is not happy with the world, He is not happy with our nation and so we are ripe for judgment.

brother behind the fascade of being the world's only superpower, things are falling apart fast. The economy is unravelling, government is corrupt and rotting from within and our military is stretched. it is only a matter of time before it all falls apart. as surely as babylon, greece, rome and all the other mighty empires of old came and went, so shall our nation. what will we have left when this happens bro J-Bird? where will our "freedoms" be then? what shall become of our prosperity? what will be the end of it all? all of this will be exposed for the lie it is that the truth of Freedom, Prosperity and Life of and in Christ will be made plain for all! if this revelation requires that our nation fall apart, that the world fall apart, THEN LET IT COME!!! i covet very jealously to be more like Christ by any means necessary and we all ought to. anything we desire more than for God to be glorified in us and through us via the making of Christ in us is an idol.

B
brentw

Let me change this up a little...

I know we all know this but judgement DOESNT begin with America...whos it begin with??

I dont boast where I DONT spend money or where I dont go or do....because its NOT America to blame!! America reflects the darknes of what is called the church today!!!

Its not my brother or my sister but its who????
ME, ME , ME!! O Lord.

Its NOT the politicians or the white house....its the churches to blame :-?

S
sermonindex

I know we all know this but judgement DOESNT begin with America...whos it begin with??
Its not my brother or my sister but its who????
ME, ME , ME!! O Lord.

Amen, brother! Such an easy to forget truth. Sometimes I get so preoccupied with the coming judgment and the darkness of this age that I turn my eyes off the Lord Jesus. But He reminded me of His Word:

"Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is." Mark 13:33

Glory and honor and praise be to God!

In Christ,
Slavyan

I
IRONMAN

bro Jaysaved

Biblically, if none of this happens within two years then you both are false prophets and may God have mercy on you for pretending to speak for him.

what you said here is pretty interesting and gives me comfort! our Lord shared some things with me concerning the coming judgment which are eerily similar to what these 2 brothers have said. i have shared this things with some other saints and they tie into what they have been shown also. now it could be that a bunch of us out there are nuts and deluded, but the liklihood of so many sainst seeing the same thing and it being wrong is not likely...at least i think not.

now what i belive firmly our Lord showed me can be found in the lounge under Prophetic Credentials 3. there bro Philologos (ROn Bailey in england) challenged me in a similar way, if none of what i said happens by jan 1 2008, then you won't have to worry about hearing any such thing from me any more!i will recant, repent, sit down and be quiet.

if it does happen however, then God have mercy on us all indeed!

to bros Aberley and glorycloud, i suppose we are in a similar situation as Micaiah who told ahab he would die, was promptly slapped and said, if none of this happens, then God hasn't spoken by me...however we know ahab was tagged with an arrow and died, dogs licked up his blood in the street...

we are about to find out if we have been deluded by satan (if so i pray dear saints you would not abandon us but hold us up in prayer) or included intimately into the plans of God. ie strong satanic delusion or divine inclusion as bro Rahman would say, incidentally he and i have our heads on the same chopping block as we await next year so join the club i guess!!! personally i have resolved to believe this is God on faith because being doubleminded is heavy on the spirit and also whatever is not of faith is a sin. i think our Lord will vindicate Himself what He said through us in time to His glory.once that happens, there will be some changes in opinion and most importantly in our dedication to Him!

A
aeberly1798

Well spoken Ironman, well spoken indeed! May God be true and every man a liar. Come Lord Jesus. The Spirit and the Bride say come!

C
crsschk

Biblically, if none of this happens within two years then you both are false prophets and may God have mercy on you for pretending to speak for him.

Jay is correct, rather than giving the benefit of the doubt however, I find none of this to be prophetic whatsoever.

Likely the first and most peculiar omission that is noticed in these sort of "utterances" is that they sound nothing like what God has spoken before. I do not mean by way of utilizing scriptures, but by the way the "prophets" think they are hearing them and turning them back out as "God said ... is saying, etc. etc."

I fear you are greatly deluding yourselves brothers. I more fear the ease and lack of understanding of just Who it is you think you are speaking for ... God have mercy indeed.

P
paula4jc


Mekdi,
I’m not an American in fact I am an African far from you. Of course all the church in this generation needs repentance. But let me tell you why America needs it-You first have to know why God established this nation.

Did God really establish America? Has America ever been a Christian nation? Were the first Americans (the Pilgrims) really true Christians? If the answers are yes, then whose descendants are these happy people?
[url=http://www.withoutsanctuary.org/]Christian Americans[/url]
When I studied America’s history and the Reconstruction of America, I saw the devil on every pages NOT God. Is America in 2006 a better Christian nation especially towards those whom were denied their humanity (Indians, blacks, Italians, Iris, Catholics, and Chinese, etc) – it depends and who you asked?

America honor celebrates and speak proudly of their forefathers and the Pilgrims. None shows feeling of guilt or shame for the bloody slaughter of the Indians, and inhumane slavery, and Jim Crow movement. Have not America great wealth comes from the sea of blood of these innocent people. Do you forgot that your so-called good Christians forefather passed laws that stated these innocent and peaceful people were not a person or a citizen – they were 3/4 human.

Today, American prisons are multimillions dollars business. High cost of living states (California) shipped prisoners off to lower cost states at a profit. Do you really believe prisoners sat and watch TV all day as the media led us to believe? Why the occupants are 98% racially divided? Why the Indian reservations and inner cities are poverty stricken? Luke 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

America the beautiful! America land of the free! God bless America! Matt 4: 8 The devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

American has interest in foreign countries NOT friends!

I chose to follow Jesus at any cost and love people (of all skin colors) not any country.

I
IRONMAN

bro Mike
thanks for your input bro.

I fear you are greatly deluding yourselves brothers. I more fear the ease and lack of understanding of just Who it is you think you are speaking for ... God have mercy indeed.

if indeed we are deluded, it's sure about to be made plain and we can be released from the delusion. i pray that if this is the case, you would not abandon us but remember us in prayer because really we would be in sore need of it...

if however it turns our God is in fact speaking through us, what then?

S
sermonindex

Bro. Ironman I still love you. I don't know if you can really understand why I love my country even if I tried to explain it to you. I don't see all the bad that you all see. My country is I believe the salt of the earth. If it was'nt for us, we would all be speaking German or Japanese for that matter. Without, America Israel would be destroyed. Without America, South Korea is free game for North Korea. Without America, Tai Land would be taken by China. We send out more missionarys than any country in the world. We do more to relieve the suffering of humanity than any other country. We do it despite the continuous ridicule of all the others who sit back and constantly bash us and label us as the wickedest country on the planet. Sure we have our problems but we are stil the MOST christian nation on the planet. It iIS a privelage to be an American.

I love my president and all those soldiers who are daily risking their lives in a foreign field, cold, home sick, perhaps confused about what they are fighting for, so that I can sit in the comfort of my home with my family and peck on my computer.

I pray for my president and all those in power. I pray for those courageous soldiers in the field. I pray for their familys.

This war has hit home in many ways.

J-bird

j-bird

S
sermonindex

Let me just add that Israel has a special place in my heart. As well as the Jewish people. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. Without us they would have not become a nation. Let me also add that Israel is not even considered a country according to the United Nations. So America is the only country that supports GODS CHOSEN PEOPLE. We must be doing SOMETHING right.

J-bird

A
Andrew_Strom


Comments on WHY AMERICA + how SOON + how BAD:


"AMERICA in THE BALANCES"
-by Andrew Strom.

Complacency. Apathy. -These are the greatest downfalls of the
'lukewarm' church. "We are increased with goods, and have need
of nothing," as the Scripture so rightly says.

So what does God do with a country like America today? -A
country that has historically been a "Land of Revivals" but is now
addicted to "consumerism" en masse. A country that for the first
time since the Great Depression now has a NEGATIVE savings
rate - because its people are so enamoured with owning "things" -
even if they can't afford them. A country whose people are indebted
to their eyeballs and beyond - so they can keep up the lifestyle of
ease to which they have grown accustomed.

What does God do with an America that has grown too fat to pray?

Is anybody "desperate" any more? Where are those who cry to
God from their gut - from the bottom of their heart? Where are the
agonies and tears? Has America forgotten what kind of prayer it
takes to obtain an Awakening? If we can't pray like that any more,
then surely all is lost?

But just how 'desperate' are things really, you ask? Things aren't
so terrible, surely?

Well, the fact is that this nation's sin right now is utterly
unmatched in her entire history. Has there ever been a generation
of Americans that has killed 40 million babies in just 30 years?
No, such a thing is UNPRECEDENTED. And has there ever been
an American generation that has not only CELEBRATED homo-
sexuality - but actually helped broadcast and spread it around
the earth? No, such a thing has never been seen before. Forty
years ago it would have been undreamt-of.

(-God reserves for these particular types of sin the term,
"Abominations" - and historically any nation practicing them has
been utterly destroyed).

Has there ever been an American generation that has addicted the
whole earth to soft porn and violence the way that Hollywood
has done in the last 40 years? No, again this is UNPRECEDENTED
in history. (The center of the worldwide pornography industry is
located just outside Los Angeles).

Has there ever been an American generation whose preachers
go on satellite television and teach other leaders in 'Revival'
countries how to "milk" the sheep for money, and grow rich at
the expense of the poor? No, I tell you, America has NEVER
done this before. Our TV preachers are now actually being used
by the devil to corrupt true moves of God all over the globe. (Go to
Nigeria, Ghana, Brazil and see what I mean. American "Prosperity"
is everywhere - and still spreading).

At this very moment America is hanging in the balances. God is
making up His mind what to do with her. And yet still complacency
rules. -Still no "desperate" prayer. Apathy covers us like a blanket.
Will you sleepwalk your way to destruction, America?

Years ago a famous preacher commented that if God did not
judge America, then He would have to apologise to Sodom and
Gomorrah. I am not sure that it was true then, but I certainly
believe it is true now. We are at the crisis point.

In the last 40 years, in every way we have become the most sick,
selfish, greedy, corrupt, sin-addicted generation that America has
ever produced. And now judgment hangs over the land like a sword.

Where are those who "sigh and cry" at the abominations in the
land? Where are those like righteous Lot whose soul was "tortured"
day after day by all that he saw and heard? Are there none who
will cry to God with strong weeping and tears?

Let me make some predictions at this point, so I can be clear
about what this country is facing:

(1) Firstly, I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid Judgment. This
nation may have Revival in the midst of judgments - but this is now
the best it can hope for. In fact, without judgments it is doubtful
that Revival is even possible. -People are simply too complacent.
They need a SHOCK even to begin to pray.

(2) Expect a great economic crash - and expect it SOON. Without
this, how will this nation get its eyes off its great god, Money?

(3) Expect further CALAMITY. This nation is "running red lights"
one after the other. -That is what 9-11 and Katrina were. Things
are going to get much much worse before this is over. Expect
something to hit the West Coast - and expect it to be BAD.

It is dificult for me to put into words the crisis we are in at this
moment, and the judgments that await this nation if there is no
repentance. God is looking for sackcloth and ashes. He is looking
for those who "sigh and cry". Will you be one of these, my friend?

The hour is late. The need is urgent. Who will respond?

If you want to be someone who prays like this, there are some
things that we have recently put in place to help you enter in to
this kind of praying. Please go to our website - Revivalschool.com -
and download the "Agonizing Prayer" audio clips on the right-hand
side. Or join us on the Friday night Phone-Hookup prayer meetings -
where we cry out to God together for mercy and outpouring.

The time has come to PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, my friends. The
need is desperate - will you respond?

Our website again- http://www.revivalschool.com

God bless you all.

Andrew Strom.

I
IRONMAN

bro J-Bird

Bro. Ironman I still love you. I don't know if you can really understand why I love my country even if I tried to explain it to you. I don't see all the bad that you all see. My country is I believe the salt of the earth. If it was'nt for us, we would all be speaking German or Japanese for that matter. Without, America Israel would be destroyed. Without America, South Korea is free game for North Korea. Without America, Tai Land would be taken by China. We send out more missionarys than any country in the world. We do more to relieve the suffering of humanity than any other country. We do it despite the continuous ridicule of all the others who sit back and constantly bash us and label us as the wickedest country on the planet. Sure we have our problems but we are stil the MOST christian nation on the planet. It iIS a privelage to be an American.
i love you too bro and so let us continue to reason together. i love this nation also but i am well aware not only of the many good deeds which have been done by America but also the bad ones. the bottom line is, God isn't going to let those deeds go unpunished. God spared not His chosen nation of Israel and He will in no wise cut us any slack, especially because we are SUPPOSED to be christians. bro J-Bird you can't see all the bad in what way? do you not believe that it exists or that we are guilty of many wicked things before God? bro, we have blood in our skirts!!! nobody here is saying that America has do no good, we are simply making it known that we have also done some evil things also for which there must be recompense and it is coming. the clear example you gave of america entering ww2 shows some of the good which america has done by defeating the axis powers and japan. however on the flip side, there have been 40 million plus babies aborted in this nation alone. other nations have had their share of abortions and will surely get their recompense for that and whatever else they are found guilty of by God. i agree with you on many things bro, indeed america has sent out many many missionaries on the one hand. on the flip side though, there has been much other filth (false gospels included) which has entered the world from here which has adversly affected the world to counter the good gospel which has been sown by american preachers. yes we give more in aid than any other nation however the other nations give a greater proportion of what they have than we do; we give out of our abundance while others give more out of their need.remember the poor widow who gave 2 mites and the pharisee who gave a lot of money and which one christ said gave more? i suppose bro J-Bird what i'm saying isn't music to your ears and maybe for a few others also. nonetheless we must be sure that we need to repent before God. the Jews in the days of old oft grew lax in their prosperity and flouted so many of God's statutes. the thing with doing such is that at some point one becomes so blind that one is no longer aware of one's transgressions (as were the Jews) such that when the warning goes out to repent, the immediate response is "repent?repent of what?" the Jews (as many saints today) thought they were in the right with God, not knowing that they had so offended God to the point where they were't even aware of it any more. when the judgments came, very few were prepared and they were shocked and amazed when really the prophets told them and warned them many times before that they had it coming unless they got right. [b]this is the same situation we are in now regarding our nation and i hope you see that, i hope we begin to see that.[/b] well then again it may be for us like it was for Israel, they repented after they got a thrashing... :cry: God help us!!! it is a privilege to be an american...it is a far more superior privilede though to be a Christian however. it seems to me (forgive me if i am wrong bro) you are an american before you are a Christian when it should be the other way around.those who suffer in the prisons for Christ's sake are more priviledged than we know at present...in heaven their rewards will be great and their comfort there greater because they suffered first. anyhow what do i know, i'm an american by birth but zimbabwean by blood and heritage. perhaps that gives me a perspective on nationality and the Faith which is a bit different from most...i've learned that if God doesn't come first, everything goes out of whack. if our Faith in God is any less than our faith in anything else, we will be disappointed and be guilty of idolatry. far too many saints have more faith in america than God and we see it in the attitude which seems to say america is invincible or somehow exempt from judgment...as a Christian nation, the judgment on us will be that much harsher for that reason.

S
sermonindex

I hope for the sake of not just my country, but for the sake of many other countrys that judgement does'nt come to America.

I think this world would self destruct without America.

I thank God for how he has blessed this country, but if our economy crashes well find a way to perservere. We have a way of coming together when times get rough, just study our history, it will not be the first time. I'm sure if it happens all the other countrys will sit back and watch us struggle. No one ever comes to our rescue, but we continue to run to the rescue of others. I think it will help get us back in shape. It might make us mean and tuff. Nothin like a little resistence to strengthen weakened muscles.

J-bird

I
IRONMAN

bro J-bird


Let me just add that Israel has a special place in my heart. As well as the Jewish people. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. Without us they would have not become a nation. Let me also add that Israel is not even considered a country according to the United Nations. So America is the only country that supports GODS CHOSEN PEOPLE. We must be doing SOMETHING right.

Israel holds a special place in the hearts of many a saint i'm sure. it does for me also. however let us be clear that it is not enough to say we support Israel and go off and fund the shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin-laden and think that God will not take notice. That idea that because we support israel we are ok with God totally smacks of justification by works and that don't cut it...of course this is not without merit, but this doesn't absolve us of our transgressions, we need to repent and be cleansed by the blood of Christ and the only way that will happen is via judgment because only then will we have no other recourse.

i once told the Lord an observation i had made concerning the coming judgment, it was that many people would be disappointed. He said back that those who would be disappointed would be those whose faith in country was greater than their faith in Him...let us all stop and consider this : do i believe and trust more in my country than i do in God? if so why?

God help us!!!

S
sermonindex

There was a time when I had more faith in my country than God. The towers fell and that was all shattered. This helped lead me to my Saviour in whom I totally depend. I still love my country and would die for it.

Being a martyr is honourable, but Jesus would rather us LIVE for him. Were no good when were dead. How many people who work around you KNOW your a christian. I'm not just directing that question to you bro. ironman that's for everyone. Do you smile or laugh when someone tells a dirty joke, or do you rebuke them for it. Carry a bible to work and read it on your lunch break and let people see you doing it, don't go hide somewhere. Never crack a smile if curse words are used in a humerous way by your boss or piers. Refuse to work on the sabbath. Don't watch anything on T.V. that even remotely has a hint of the world in it. By doing these little things and praying for one another it is a start in getting the savour back in the salt. We are the salt. If we will just let our light shine in our own lives it will effect the world around us.

Pray for our country and leaders instead of bashing them and finding everything bad that they do. God put them in power and their here for our protection.

J-bird


What would happen if every christian would get some guts and not bow down to sin. You'll be persecuted but He is worthy.

I
IRONMAN

hey bro J-Bird
by the way like you, i lift up our government and commit them to God for guidance, after all it is He who establishes the governments. Romans 13 right?

i don't think the world would self-distruct without america...to be sure there would be repurcussions all over the world but ultimately, God has it all in hand so He will sustain the world. the world was ok without america before 1773 and if '07 brings an end to america, the world will rock on. let us consider that the british empire, of which both your country and mine were colonies, controlled much of the land mass and up to 25% of ALL the world economy at it's peak, yet when it fell apart, the world continued on. just as it was when any great empire collapsed, the world didn't stop.

i feel though that at this stage, no repentance of any significance will come forth, indeed no repentance of the kind which would stay God's hand in judgment is going to come from us voluntarily. we will repent reactively though. it goes without saying that mammon is the god of many and until that goes, God will not be worshipped by our nation as a whole as He ought.

when the econom crashes some will find a way to survive but others will find The Way and not depart from it!this is why i look forward to it because when the dust settles, there will be a whole lot more saints worshipping God in Spirit and Truth!that's heaven on earth bro!nothing any nation anywhere can offer can top that...what is it Paul says? eye hath not seen no ear heard the half of what God has in store for those who love Him!

I
IRONMAN

bro J-Bird

There was a time when I had more faith in my country than God. The towers fell and that was all shattered. This helped lead me to my Saviour in whom I totally depend. I still love my country and would die for it.

praise the Lord bro for Him drawing you to Himself!

Being a martyr is honourable, but Jesus would rather us LIVE for him. Were no good when were dead.

well being a martyr is more than honorable, it has great reward in heaven...now as to us being no good when we are dead, that's not true. think of when Abel was murdered by cain God said this: Genesis chapt 4

[b]9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood F29 crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. [/b]

abel's blood cried out to God even though Abel was dead!and then here in Rev 6

[b]9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.[/b]

to be dead in Christ is not to be rendered ineffectual because the blood of the martyrs continually cries out to God and thus still has influence.

How many people who work around you KNOW your a christian. I'm not just directing that question to you bro. ironman that's for everyone.

all the people i work with know i am a Christian very well. as a result, most don't try and debate theology with me. i've been ganged up on a couple of times and God gave me grace and words to speak and all were silenced. what about you bro? not saying this in a spirit of contention but curious as to how God is using you so that i can also be encouraged.

Do you smile or laugh when someone tells a dirty joke, or do you rebuke them for it.

sometimes i laugh sarcastically, most of the time i don't and sometimes i rebuke. our Lord is working with me yet on that and things have changed much over the last couple of yrs. what about you bro?

Carry a bible to work and read it on your lunch break and let people see you doing it, don't go hide somewhere.

i do and i read it whenever i can which is pretty often. there is however a rule against reading anything work related. we get a lot of downtime sometimes and depending on which station i'm on in the lab, i can read pretty freely. i've found that it causes some consternation with some of my coworkers who maybe don't read the word as much. and what of you bro?

Never crack a smile if curse words are used in a humerous way by your boss or piers

still working on this also. most of the time i don't smile at all and on occasion i rebuke. i feel a boldness welling up in me which makes it easier to do so however. i think that makes some uncomfortable...what of you?

Refuse to work on the sabbath

what day is the sabbath? for me it is whenever i'm off work coz i work weekends once a month and on one of those days i chill and spend time with Him as much as i can.what day do you take for the sabbath?Paul says in Romans 14

[b] One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded F56 in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth F57 the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.[/b]

Don't watch anything on T.V. that even remotely has a hint of the world in it.

every now and then i'll catch something on mtv and be blown away at how the enemy has such influence...then i'll watch the news and the events which are reported i now see in light of God's plan and this is a totally different view...i'll watch the history channel and see how past events fit into His plan. i'll see the shows on creation and be amazed at how complex creation is and then be bewildered as to how men can think all this simply evolved from some primordial soup :-? as a scientist that makes me mad...that is another story altogether bro :-P then i watch shows on man and his inventions and see the genious of man and his wickedness also and i thank God i'm a vessel of mercy (see Romans 9)

what of you bro?

By doing these little things and praying for one another it is a start in getting the savour back in the salt. We are the salt. If we will just let our light shine in our own lives it will effect the world around us.

AMEN and AMEN bro, i touch and agree with you here!!!

Pray for our country and leaders instead of bashing them and finding everything bad that they do. God put them in power and their here for our protection.

like i said bro, i lift up our leaders. i disagree with some of the things they do because they violate God's laws sometimes. this doesn't mean i'm bashing them.nonetheless, like you said, God put them there so i pray for them but i also see the things they do in the context of what God is doing as far as showing His manifold wisdom to the principalities and powers of the air through His Church(ephesians 3) which is the purpose of creation is.

What would happen if every christian would get some guts and not bow down to sin. You'll be persecuted but He is worthy.

you said it bro!!!let us also be sure that while we yet work on ourselves with God, we are not exempt from speaking out whatever God lays on us. this is where fellowship comes in, we can point out one anothers shortcomings and hold eachother up in prayer and also hold eachother accountable.

bro the things you said in this last post hit home for me and exposed some areas which yet need work and this is always appreciated as it is much needed...well always needed on this side of heaven.God bless you bro

C
Compton

That idea that because we support israel we are ok with God totally smacks of justification by works

Indeed bro,

Especially when evangelicals are too busy calling for military responses rather then calling America( edit: her churches) and Israel to repentance...the fates of our two wayward and rebellous peoples seemed somehow intertwined. So we really are grafted into Israel, stiffnecked heritage and all. Still I am glad to be able to truly say that I love God's people... which I guess only goes to prove the old saying...misery loves company.

MC

C
crsschk

Hesitant to place this here, wonder if it ought to be something to stand alone, off to the side ... Since it stemmed from this and is in part an answer of sorts...

I am vitally concerned that there is not only a vast misunderstanding of that which constitutes [i]Prophetic[/i],or 'Prophet' in our day, but that even true, sincere believers are being somewhat carried away and carrying up others along with them.

There is a great deal of difficulty even in broaching this subject due to the often emotional reaction of those who are convinced they are or have some oracle of God that must be warned, pronounced, revealed to the public, to Christians or to something more vague in nature, a mixture of both. Why is that vague? Because it is usually not definitive, that only being a small part of a much larger problem.

Setting out here with a couple of preemptive notes. I am not schooled on this matter as to be making a mandate nor am I attempting to state dogmatically what is or is not a 'prophet' or 'prophetic'. It is rather to question and surmise and give out what is troubling and bothersome, that doesn't sit right, hasn't sat right and is very concerning about this whole matter. So it is to ask many questions and pray for understanding, it is to just attempt to once again [i]look[/i] at this matter, [i]test[/i] it and just see if these things being stated and that is a key word here, [i]stated[/i] are true, deceptive, false or are they authentic, revelatory and of great importance, so much so that we should be paying particular attention to them. With that said, perhaps a good launching point.

A great deal of the things I have heard personally in this tenure, somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 or 9 years now, of what really is [i]oracles[/i] spoken by those Representative of God Himself ... These [i]words[/i], as they come forth, spoken, written, are statements of [u]fact[/u] concerning future or near future events to take place and intended to whoever is supposed to be the recipient of them. Right here is where the charge of 'ease' is often leveled in my personal estimation. The 'prophet' may feel himself to be under particular constraints, not even wishing to bring out these revelations that seem to be stirring them to proclaim, others, and I would add in our day, many, have gone on ahead without any real consideration of what they are stating. They have long ago either decided or have been told they are of a 'prophetic' undertaking, have this particular 'gift' or some other possible misunderstanding of what the gift is, do not recognize the fallacy of their own minds, [i]feel[/i] things, [i]believe[/i] certain things, [i]know[/i] that they are spokesman for God Himself.

There ought to be a weight of soberness and seriousness in "Thus sayeth the Lord" that I find altogether bankrupt in these utterances. Sincerity is not a replacement for evidence, it is not enough. "God said" is a very strenuous, serious matter. Not what He [i]has[/i] said as we have the scriptures, but what He is [u]now[/u] saying. The great an looming question is this;

Is it authentic?

To get right down to the foundations here, the first thing that is bothersome and where I wonder tremendously at the gliding past of it is, 'likeness'. It is all the things descriptive, 'voice', 'tone', 'manner', even 'personality'.

Character combines them, authenticity defines them. If someone was to speak in my stead and misrepresent me or even to speak along the same lines as my particular thinking, certainly I would know it, but what of others, would they? If you knew me well enough and heard someone impersonating me would you be able to discern if he or she was in fact doing just that, an impersonation?

It comes down to us, do we, as believers know the Lord ourselves well enough to recognize this likeness to His Person, that when a 'prophet' of this sort comes along there is a resident appreciation and understanding that this is the Lord [i]Himself[/i] speaking? Is it characteristic of what He might say? Or has said? Does it 'sound' like Him?

Make no apologies that everything that comes to mind that I have heard here or anywhere for that matter has truly been that which I know of, even in this limited sphere of little understanding that I do have ... It always brings a wincing, a certain grieving, an upsetting ... The Lord has not said.

But how do I know this? How can I be certain? What elevates such a one to state this so matter of a fact? To be perfectly frank about it, I most certainly could be just as wrong, perhaps the Lord has changed His character, His 'style' of speaking and it is I myself who have missed the boat, so to speak.

Don't take my word for it. Actually, don't take anybodies word for it, even the 'prophet'. Test it for yourself.

There is just as much a weariness in bringing things out to just look at without all the usual associated baggage of denouncing as preemptive, as presumptuous, as critical. A test case here, forgetting the former motives, just to listen to the 'sound' if you will;

[b]A Call to the Wilderness[/b]
[i]Matt Sorger, prophetic revivalist from Seldon, N.Y., encourages the church to embrace the coming “wilderness of intimacy” with God. Unlike a wilderness that believers should move quickly through, the wilderness of intimacy is to be a place where the church lives at all times, Sorger says.[/i]

This wilderness, the wilderness of intimacy, is where you want to live—the last wilderness you want to come out of; you want to stay there forever.

It is described in Hosea 2:14: “‘Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and will bring her into the wilderness and speak comfort to her. I will give her vineyards from there, and the Valley of Achor as a door of hope.’” And in verse 19: “‘I will betroth you to Me forever; yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and justice, in loving kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness. And you shall know the Lord.’” And in verse 22: “‘The earth shall answer with grain, with new wine, and with oil.’”

In this wilderness, from the earth comes grain, new wine and oil. This is the wilderness of intimacy with your Beloved. It is the wilderness where God allures you, draws you and woos you to be alone with Him. In that place He speaks comfort to you, and He makes “the Valley of Achor as a door of hope.” This is a glorious thing. And this is where the church is transitioning to.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just one example. Have been getting this "Streams of Revival" newsletter for awhile now, it being one of many other things that come across the mail from a variety of sources, all just taken in to ponder, consider. It did get to a point where I wrote to them specifically in a similar fashion about the testing of all these things. Here's another from the same avenue;

[b]The Year 2007: A Time Of Movement And Clashing[/b]
[i]In this week’s prophetic word, Chuck Pierce, president of Glory of Zion International Ministries in Denton, Texas, tells us to prepare for a year of change in which God will bring down those who are not living holy lives and send a rising tide of His Holy Spirit. Through Chuck, the Lord encourages us to “watch in the night”—that is, to pray—and to look for His coming.[/i]

"Plant your feet! Ready yourself for change! You are entering a year of shaking and quaking! This year will be known as the year of the Holy Spirit. This will be the year the rivers will rise. Watch [to see] where the heavens open and [physical] floods reach the earth, and document those places. Those are places targeted for a Holy Spirit invasion. Rising floodwaters will cause you to move to higher ground. As the river of the Holy Spirit rises, you will find yourself moving to the high places. [The Lord says]: ‘I will position My people on the high places this year. As you worship, I will cause ruling thrones of iniquity to topple. Like Dagon’s, their heads will fall before My presence. Get ready! I will shake loose wicked structures. Watch in the night and watch Me manifest in the light.’"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One more;

[b]God is Cleansing the Church[/b]
[i]Many prophets today sense that the Holy Spirit is calling the church to a higher standard of holiness. After the recent national elections, Cindy Jacobs received the following prophetic word about a coming wave of purging and repentance that will begin with God's people. In the word, God exhorts us not to be discouraged about the results of the election but to sanctify ourselves, continue to pray, and trust Him to bring cleansing to the church and the nation.[/i]

As I have been in prayer about the results of the Nov. 7 midterm elections, I have felt the Lord speak a very clear word to me. It is taken from the book of Joshua. This is what the Lord said to me:

"For I am not a man that I take sides in terms of political persuasion, but rather I am the commander of the hosts of heaven. I am a righteous God, and My army cannot cross over and take the promised land without the establishment of a holy army.

“This is a time that judgment must begin at the house of God. I am shaking everything that can be shaken, but unholiness cannot overthrow unholiness.

“Do not think that your prayers are not availing in the heavens because you do not get the answers in the way you think they should be given. Your prayers are pressing out the wickedness in My people first. There is more that is going to be exposed of leaders in homosexuality and sexual wickedness. The court of heaven has been convened through your intercession, and I am shaking the church and political parties and all things that can be shaken.

“I would say to you, ' I never lose, and I have not lost this election.' Unrighteousness is now on trial and I say to you, 'Sanctify yourselves, Church, for there is a movement of the fear of the Lord about to fall on the land.' I say to you: 'This is a time of circumcision and it is painful. My sword is cutting away all hidden and secret sin.'

“Remember that I am the God who takes My people from the defeats of Ai and brings them to victory in the land. Shake off defeat and do not be discouraged, for I have a righteous remnant and a plan to defeat abortion and defeat wickedness. There is a champion with the heart of a David that I will raise up for such a time as this, once I have released my cleansing flood.

“I say: 'Stand firm, and know that retreat is not an option, for there are great stakes at hand. Rally yourselves together and do not disperse in the day of battle. Rise up with the spirit of David, and surely you will defeat the giants in the land. Loose the spirit of Zerubbabel in the land, for it is not by might, nor by power, but by the Spirit,' says the Lord of hosts, 'that I will move with a mighty revival upon this land after I have removed the filthy garments from my Joshuas’ (see Zech. 3 and 4).

“Shake off discouragement, and do not stop praying and do not think that I am not listening. Trust Me that I overcome all attacks of Satan and will raise up a righteous party who will fight for justice."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is only just a sampling from one area and it is from the same people that produce "Charisma" magazine to give it it's proper due. Whatever might be thought or said of them or these 'prophetic' people is not the point at all.
It is just to ask the same question again, "Has the Lord said?"

It is to ask the same question to those making statements of fact in God's stead here about coming judgment to America. Is it so?

[b]The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets[/b]

The [i]spirit[/i]. Is this my particular trouble, this wonder of why this 'spirit' does not resonate with my own? When I hear these things uttered I am neither filled with fear or wonder or contrition but the opposite, am grieved and something foreign is introduced, [i]this is not the Lord[/i] the unstated intimation.

We have attempted in times past here to try an unravel and define this and it generally turns out to be a lot of defending and explaining from those thinking they have this particular gifting and have always found that suspect and problematic in itself. If one was that certain that they have and are to speak oracles of God, His words and are emphatically convinced it would need none of the above. Make the statement, period.

There is a whole lot still that needs clarification, but in all the attempts here that in times past have been discussed I still do not believe we have come to a real definition of what a New Testament 'prophet' in fact is. Nor what constitutes prophecy in this time space moment we find ourselves.

I believe SermonIndex is chocked full of prophetic understanding from some great Christian thinkers, saints who have left their own personal stamp from long discourse with the Lord and with His Word our only guide and revelation of who God is, what He intends and what He defines. There is just no other way around this. It is apparent that the Lord decided long ago that this is how He wished to communicate His thought to us. It provides the very 'likeness' and character of who He is and to our great benefit and special time in His history of how things are we, of all people are blessed because as Hebrews put it's so succinctly;

[i]God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, [/i] Heb 1:1,2

An article that touches on this well worth our attention as it applies to all this and is an example of what I mean by being prophetic, not by being prognosticators (future telling) but by definition, [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13896&post_id=107016&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=31#107016]The Necessity of Giving Earnest Heed ... ~ Sparks[/url]. Within it there is a far better development and setting out even indirectly to this matter.

Tozer was a prophet, but he did not set forth oracles or statements of specific dateline events. William Booth's great seeing into the future as it were, as he so rightly defined what we now have in evidence, it is worth repeating;

[i]" ... I consider that the chief dangers which confront the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, and heaven without hell."[/i]

But this is not a "Thus sayeth the Lord" and yet is not indeed prophetic?

Will give this a rest for awhile and let others add their thoughts to this matter. A real definition or defining is still greatly needed. I am truly afraid that what has been expressed here at the onset is where a great deal of this matter is far off the mark, it is not prophetic, it is not the Lord, it's is self deceptive for all the intentions and sincerity and love for the Lord, all these things notwithstanding. It is not one hundred other things not stated nor assumed otherwise. Perhaps it is my burden to somehow truly get to the heart of the matter. My real suspicion in these things is that they are ruminations of the mind, combined with scriptures and then turned out as 'prophecies', the problem is there is far too much of the [i]person[/i] and his or her personality that is characteristic, not the Holy Spirit 'speaking' as it has been so easily reported.


C
Compton

Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and will bring her into the wilderness and speak comfort to her. I will give her vineyards from there, and the Valley of Achor as a door of hope

It does seem peculiar that we live an a country with more "bible teaching", indeed more 'prophecy' then any other nation...yet is there not a growing famine in the land for God's word?

But perhaps noticing a famine is a sign of hunger...the wilderness is the place where true blessing is appreciated.

Likewise, today when I hear prophets saying Judgement is coming...I can honestly testify that for some I know it has already come...and tremble with the acknowledgement that even in God's judgement he restrains his hand in mercy...realizing that there are levels of judgements that can be had.

Now here is what breaks my heart about many of today's prophets. Many prophecy along the lines of the very material and economic prosperity that many have been delivered from living for. So when they say "You will lose you financial security..." (Not much is said beyond that it seems) Well many do not have it in the first place...And if those who were poor in money, but rich in Christ did not have the encouraging presence of the Holy Spirit within, they might very well agree with the jewish writer who quipped. "God is always hardest on the poor."

And even if they aren't threatening the loss of money, they are ballyhooing the blessing of it. Along these lines, the revival of 1858 was mocked by some as a 'businessman's revival' because much of the initial repentance was from desperate merchants in the wake of a bank run. (not all were desperate for money through...) Indeed, from it's emergence in the 1700's, evangelical Christianity has ever been plagued with lesser preachers who hocked the gospel as a psycological cure for those who felt empty from their pursuit of material happiness, chasing their dreams all over the expanding, increasingly disconnected society of British empire. We live in the shadow of that type of preaching today...

At a church I used to attend, everyone was passing around endless variations of "God is doing a new thing" type prophecies from a website called Elijahlist.com. Every prophecy usually promised some type of superficial or material blessing for those obeyed God...and my heart was inexplicably sad but I was too inexperienced to articulate the grieving Spirit within me.

I have been disciplined by the Spirit for chasing material possesions, and have been encouraged by the Holy Spirit that the Lord will be my substance. If this promise, not the promise of material wealth, but the promise of His Holy Spirit, were threathened to be taken I would be truly at a loss

Because we often qualify 'blessing' as money, we, unlike the early Christians, do not have all things in common...each man has his own lifestyle to pay for and his own money to pay with. Because of this, economic focus can detach me further from my brothers...even now many Christians are stashing canned food and gold coins to 'preserve' themselves.

Yet if economic hard times come to America, those who are already poor will suffer the greatest...and the wealthiest will suffer only irriation and inconvenience, something that will seem like a terrible shock I'm sure...but their bellies won't go empty. (John F. Kennedy once remarked of his childhood in the 1930's, that he had to learn about the Great Depression in a college history course.)

My own perspective, (which is quite informed from sins of tragic material folly far beyond most people I have met, and also blessed by a merciful and deep repentance in this area) is that judgement is not the loss of money...but the loss of abiding in Christ, and He within me... that results in slumber. Take away my money if you must Lord...just take not thy Holy Spirit from me.

From the experience and testimony of my own soul, this is a far worse judgement...

"According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day...Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.;..."

But even so, in the mix of such dreadful judgement there was still this mercy "... unto this day."

Take heart American saints...God's mercy sometimes let's us play out our own folly to bring us to the end of ourselves. We've made a mess of things for sure...but if you have the unction to pray for repentance then run, don't walk to the altar, and make things right with God. The unction is proof that he loves you...don't trifle with such treasure.

Blessings,

MC


H
hisremnant

Praise Jesus!!

i have just finished reading this strand and must say it has been interesting. You see i live with a prophet. She doesn't have business cards a lear jet and is very reluctant to either refer to herself as one or wish for others to call her one.

i can state that what i have heard spoken here about America sounds like the Lord. Some of you are truly confused about prophets, their purpose, and how God uses them. Something i am quite sure that has occured with many in this nation is that they have changed God. AND GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. HE still raises up prophets HE still heals, delivers and restores. AND HE STILL JUDGES NATIONS.

God uses prophets to warn us of our sins that we might repent. He does this because HE is just and wishes none to perish.

i detect a strong sense of nationalism and denial from some who post here. NO MAN CAN SERVE BOTH GOD AND MAMMON, You can not serve both the kingdom of God and the kingdom of America. You will love one and hate the other.

if you read your bibles you know that two of the harshest judgments ever enacted by God were against Sodom and Canaan. He completely destroyed Sodom for sexual abominations and called upon the Hebrews to kill every living thing in the promised land of Canaan because of idol worship. Most specifically sacraficing their children to the god Molek. America is even more guilty than were these nations.

We broadcast our sick prosperity, word of faith, easy believism gospel around the world by satellite. Sin is as prevalent inside the church as out. We now have religions who call themselves Christian that marry homosexuals and ordain them to the priesthood.

My question to you naysayers is. HOW LONG DO YOU THINK GOD WILL LET THIS CONTINUE? i am here to say that Gods judgment has already began in the house of God. The judgment of the world much of which will come through America will soon follow. i will not give a time frame but i will say watch. Most all of you will live to see it. At least the begining.

i also want to say that if we read scripture we see that there are really two kinds of prophets. Foretelling (those who speak of things to come) and forthtelling (those who address the events occuring right now) Both Elijah and John The Baptizer were forthtelling prophets. And it is my considerate opinion that there is not much future left to foretell.

Remember America to whom much is given, much is required.

Hisservant rich

Mathew 4:17

I
IRONMAN

bro M.C.
hope all is well on your end bro!

Especially when evangelicals are too busy calling for military responses rather then calling America( edit: her churches) and Israel to repentance...the fates of our two wayward and rebellous peoples seemed somehow intertwined. So we really are grafted into Israel, stiffnecked heritage and all. Still I am glad to be able to truly say that I love God's people... which I guess only goes to prove the old saying...misery loves company.

bro i hadn't even factored this in; the thrust seems to be for military intervesntion as opposed to repentance...i guess anything else is ok to do...well save for repentance. this leads me to further believe we are headed for judgement because that will certainly compell us to repent...

and then the stiff-neckedness, wow, we are very much like our brethren in Israel...God help us!

C
Compton

hope all is well on your end bro

Still looking for you to come back to Columbus for that cup of coffee and fellowship!

MC

A
aeberly1798

Brother Mike (crsschk),

I appreciate your insight concerning prophetic voices in our day. I agree wholeheartedly that we need to be testing the spirits and discerning between the voice of the Lord and other voices. Back in December 2005, I read the following quote from Michael Bodea in the Hand of Help Newsleter:

"Though it may sound simplistic, we must take time now while we still can grow in the knowledge and understanding of God, to learn to hear His voice, that we may distinguish His voice from the myriad of counterfeit voices. I say this, because soon a new wave of deception will sweep over this land, and false gospels and false Christs will begin to reveal themselve at an unprecedented rate. Our Father's voice is unique, and even in correction His love for us is evident."

Indeed, there are many voices out there competing for our attention and a lot of times our wallets. Although I have been a believer for 8 years, learning to discern the voice of the Holy Spirit versus the voice of the soul (heart, mind, feelings, will, emotions etc.) has required much dying to self and surrender to the Lord's will at any cost. Of course, there are other voices like the voice of the flesh, the world, and the devil, but these should be easy to discern for any one born of His Spirit.

The problem I see with Christendom is that even most of the true church at best are still babes in Christ. We have adopted the clergical hierarchy and put people in positions to hear for God for us. His word, however, says that His sheep hear is voice and will not follow another. If you believe this promise, every believer that has the light of Christ in them should be hearing his voice and following the lamb wherever he leads. Yes, we all are living stones being built up as a spiritual house, a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrificing. Each stone or member of the body serves a different function, but the key is that Christ is the cornerstone and that we are building on his foundation.

It's easy for us to think that just because God has gifted you and called you in a specific area that everyone else needs to operate in that same calling and gifting. Likewise, our flesh tends to desire the giftings and callings that would put us in the spotlight. The key, however, is to be meek like Christ, discover the Father's will and be willing to obey no matter what the cost. Not my will, but your will be done.

Today, we see a lot of people being mouthpieces that were designed to be hands or feets or legs and because there is so much heresy and junk coming out of these people the people who God has really raised up to be mouthpieces are hesitant to speak fearing repercussion and condemnation from all of the hearers who have got a bad taste in their mouth from having to sift through and swallow all the other garbage that is being spewed out.

I posted a warning of judgment earlier on this thread for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, until we all come to the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every kind of doctrine, trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things in Him who is the head - Christ.

I did not post on this thread, because I think I'm some prophet, trying to build a name for myself and launch another ministry. Believe me, that's the last thing we need. There is so much useless and fruitless activity going on in the body of Christ today, because we have failed to cease from our own works and truly learn what Sabbath rest is all about.

Jesus never spoke or did anything of His own initiative, but he only spoke and did those things that He saw His Father doing. We all need to come to this place or we will find that there is even a road to hell from the gate of heaven and will join with those who say, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast our devils in your name, and in your name perform many miracles." To these Christ will say, I never knew you, but depart from me you who practice lawlessness. I ask you this, did not Jesus prophesy, cast out demons, and perform many miracles? Yes, He did all of these thing and yet He calls it lawlessness. The problem today is that many people are not submitting their gift to the father. They throw it out and flaunt it every chance they get. Did Jesus do this? No, he had the gift of healing and yet at the pool of Siloam where there were many sick people, he only healed the one. Why is this? Because He only did what He saw his Father in heaven doing.

It is high time that we move on from elementary teachings of the faith and drinking milk to eating the meat of the word. It is time that we begin to let the double-edged sword cut our hearts and really divide between soul and spirit. How much of the ministry that is done today initiated from our soul, because we thought it would be a good thing? Does it feel like truth rolling across our lips when we say, "I never do anything of my own initiative."

Mike, earlier you responded and questioned WHO it is that I'm speaking for? To answer your question, I don't preach myself but Jesus Christ as Lord and myself as his servant for his Name's sake. If I was still seeking to please men, I would not be a bond slave of Christ. To his own master, a servant rises and falls and who are you to judge another man's servant? There is one Lawgiver and Judge. I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and men. My conscience is clear and whether I speak truth or lies, let YHWH be my judge. I commit myself to Him who judges righteously. If I am speaking of my own accord, may the gracious Father chasten me with his rod of correction, but if I speak truth, may all who hear, heed my warning and seek refuge in the ark of God, which is Christ. The Lord is a strong tower, the righteous run into it and are saved. May all prepare, while there is yet time, to meet their God.

I love you brother and I'm glad that we can dialogue without quarreling since the man of God must not quarrel, but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth.

I am a mere man, a vapor, a breath that is here and gone. I am not infallible and it is possible that I have spoken in error, may God have mercy on my soul. Therefore, I encourage all men everywhere to be still and know that He is God and seek to hear his voice for yourself.

Grace and peace to all who would seek not to save his own life!

S
sermonindex

Bro. ironman i have to admit, these little things have been very hard to do. i have went through some very hard persecution by my piers because I stood firm.

I also have to admit that the loneliness has almost been too much to bear. I've broken under extreme pressure a few times just so I could have SOME fellowship. You'll be ostrasized for standing firm. People will acuse you of being antisocial or holier than thou.

The fact is most the time these are so called christians telling the jokes and using profanity. I have very seldom if ever found a work partner who just wanted to talk about normal things such as family or the Lord.

It's almost like if you give them an inch they take a mile. If you let down your gaurd for just a second they think your o.k. with their profanity and vulgarity. It's amazing. it never ceases to amaze me at the amount of disrespect you get when you let it be known your a christian.

I had one lady who found out I was a preacher actually flash me. Thank God that at that moment he made it to where I did'nt see it. They will despise you bro. I'm telling you. They hate us especially if you will not compromise. I've had them gang up on me and use some of the worst vulgarity you could imagine to see what I would do.

I had one lady talk about some sexual acts in front of me that would make a prostitute blush.
I actually had to leave one job because things got so bad I almost had a nervous breakdown. we had a gay guy there that had an affair with a married man and stirred up so much trouble that the tension was almost unbearable when you walked in the room. I asked him how he walked around with all that guilt and shame. I can honestly say that I have tried my best to be a light despite the constant rebuke. I have failed at times in being as strong as I should be, but I learned from that and it made me stronger.

But if you could see the times I would get on my knees in the the work place, and hear the prayers I've prayed for these people.

Most people can't handle the loneliness, and I believe the Lord understands.

J-bird

S
sermonindex

God bless you for that post.

Maybe our nation will one day have the grace to apologize and repent for enslaving millions of Africans, but I doubt it.

neil

I
IRONMAN

hey bro
thanks for your response. it got me thinking about some things which pehaps we could all delve into as led of God in the hopes that we'd all learn from this.

I am vitally concerned that there is not only a vast misunderstanding of that which constitutes Prophetic,or 'Prophet' in our day, but that even true, sincere believers are being somewhat carried away and carrying up others along with them.

i agree with you there, there is a misunderstanding of what a prophet is. i think one of the greatest influences has been the world's perspective on what a prophet is, hence we have people like Nostradamus being called prophets...there is the tendancy to believe that the prophet predicts the future but the truth of the matter is, the prophet doesn't always do so. the prophet is one who speaks the heart of God. i think of samuel, samuel spoke little about the future but communicated what God desired to do with Israel. Jonah largely communicated to nineveh God's displeasure with their sin and called them to repent. of course often the Lord will communicate what He will do in response to the people's actions/responses to what He has said to them through the prophet. hence you have the warnings of coming judgments and then later on restoration and so on. in short, the prophet speaks what is on the heart of God so the prophet has a special place in God's heart in that with no other will God share His plans before acting them out aside from the prophet. See the book of Amos. perhaps that seems to simple and people add things to that but that is the bottom line.



There is a great deal of difficulty even in broaching this subject due to the often emotional reaction of those who are convinced they are or have some oracle of God that must be warned, pronounced, revealed to the public, to Christians or to something more vague in nature, a mixture of both. Why is that vague? Because it is usually not definitive, that only being a small part of a much larger problem.

upon reflecting on what you said about the emotional reactions from those of us who feel we have been called to prophethood (i myself being guilty of this also and muddying the waters) i've come to a conclusion. by the way this is not defending myself but simply bearing my heart out to you all. it's not a treatise on "why you should believe i'm a prophet" it is simply why i believe that i am a prophet.i think sometimes this is perceived to be one defending himself when really it is one's own testimony so perhaps there is some culpability on both sides here. ultimately God will expose the truth and i eagerly await it. anyhow my sometimes emotional reaction is not out of a desire to defend myself or to prove anything, but more out of a grief stemming from the realization of the gravity of what will happen in rejecting what God has spoken. brethren if we reject what God has said, we will get whatever recompense He decides to give and we will be without excuse before HIm. i guess for a lack of a better way to express said grief i've lashed out before but i bless God that of late i don't do that but pour that grief out with Him. if we can be honest, we can see that those prophets who spoke messages of repentance and judgement were not well received and man has not changed since then so we can bet the response will be the same largely. ultimately God is the one who calls prophets and sends them forth and it seems to me they are not what people expect. i think of Christ, the prophet's Prophet, Himself embodying the very Spirit of Prophecy was not dashing nor attractive in any way which would draw people to Him right away (see Isaiah 53)so if even HE didn't come packaged in the ideal way, how much less then will other prophets?perhaps something to consider there?



Setting out here with a couple of preemptive notes. I am not schooled on this matter as to be making a mandate nor am I attempting to state dogmatically what is or is not a 'prophet' or 'prophetic'. It is rather to question and surmise and give out what is troubling and bothersome, that doesn't sit right, hasn't sat right and is very concerning about this whole matter. So it is to ask many questions and pray for understanding, it is to just attempt to once again look at this matter, test it and just see if these things being stated and that is a key word here, stated are true, deceptive, false or are they authentic, revelatory and of great importance, so much so that we should be paying particular attention to them. With that said, perhaps a good launching point.

applauding your honesty here and desire to reach a greater understanding, as i am also.

It is to ask the same question to those making statements of fact in God's stead here about coming judgment to America. Is it so?

well we are about to find out...i must say though that i've been in touch with several saints which i had not known til recently who seem to be seeing the same thing as i have. what bro Strom for example has been saying i only found out earlier this year but our Lord had been speaking to me since the middile of last yr. there is another brother up north who had been shown the same thing since 2000 or so who i only came to know a couple of yrs ago and even then we have only been discussing these things over the last 3 months or so. i find that compelling that so many saints seem to be saying the same thing, saints who have only recently come to know one another. it may be we're all deceived, yet somehow i believe that not to be the case...just something interesting i thought i'd share there.

also i would like for us to perhaps give some thought to the way in which people in the days of old received these oracles of God. did they respond as we do today or not? did they repent? do we repent?perhaps something else to consider? this leads into what you said here bro

The spirit. Is this my particular trouble, this wonder of why this 'spirit' does not resonate with my own? When I hear these things uttered I am neither filled with fear or wonder or contrition but the opposite, am grieved and something foreign is introduced, this is not the Lord the unstated intimation.

i wonder how the people in those days felt when they heard such words. if even the priests were acting crazy, would it be such a stretch to say perhaps some of the people felt as you do bro Mike? perhaps they didn't receive the word because they felt they had no need to repent and dismissed it? something to consider perhaps,or factor into all this?

We have attempted in times past here to try an unravel and define this and it generally turns out to be a lot of defending and explaining from those thinking they have this particular gifting and have always found that suspect and problematic in itself. If one was that certain that they have and are to speak oracles of God, His words and are emphatically convinced it would need none of the above. Make the statement, period.

i think the statement speaks for itself really. if one is a prophet, there is a bond of sorts with other like people which is hard to explain to anyone who isn't. it's like me trying to tell someone what it is like to be an african, some things in spite of my best efforts only make sense to other africans. could it be that maybe the statements concerning this by those who believe themselves prophets may be testomonies which are misperceived? could it be that perhaps the answers given to this question can be misinterpreted to be a defense rather than just being a response?

we make the statements and then get barraged with questions bro Mike and i think you have a point, once the pronoucement is made there is nothing left to do (assuming it is concerning the future) but to wait and see what happens. ought we not respond to your concerns bro?

There is a whole lot still that needs clarification, but in all the attempts here that in times past have been discussed I still do not believe we have come to a real definition of what a New Testament 'prophet' in fact is. Nor what constitutes prophecy in this time space moment we find ourselves.

the N.T. prophet is no different from the O.T. prophet, they both do the same thing, speak the heart of God and what God plans to do.



But this is not a "Thus sayeth the Lord" and yet is not indeed prophetic?

true, but we know that this is the heart of God being spoken by tozer. remember samuel didn't say a whole lot about the future and perhaps tozer is a prophet like samuel?

Will give this a rest for awhile and let others add their thoughts to this matter. A real definition or defining is still greatly needed. I am truly afraid that what has been expressed here at the onset is where a great deal of this matter is far off the mark, it is not prophetic, it is not the Lord, it's is self deceptive for all the intentions and sincerity and love for the Lord, all these things notwithstanding. It is not one hundred other things not stated nor assumed otherwise. Perhaps it is my burden to somehow truly get to the heart of the matter. My real suspicion in these things is that they are ruminations of the mind, combined with scriptures and then turned out as 'prophecies', the problem is there is far too much of the person and his or her personality that is characteristic, not the Holy Spirit 'speaking' as it has been so easily reported.

i pray our Lord ministers to you according to His will and indeed to us all as we seek Him on this.

agan this is not to be taken as a defense of myself. it is a testimony. if indeed i am decived, i will not be alone, there are a bunch of us out there who will sorely need your intercession brethren. if indeed God proves us to be true then we will all have much to do. may God expose the truth to His glory. AMEN.

B
brentw

i have just finished reading this strand and must say it has been interesting. You see i live with a prophet. She doesn't have business cards a lear jet and is very reluctant to either refer to herself as one or wish for others to call her one.

I dont know why know one else has responded to this post....
This a very powerful post! Theres nothing else to be said...thanks brother for your edifying words. Short and simple but to the point. This post reminds me of an old annointed Ravenhill type of writting.
I hope you will post more often!

Sometimes I wonder if our motives are to post our 2 cents rather really listen?

C
crsschk

the N.T. prophet is no different from the O.T. prophet, they both do the same thing, speak the heart of God and what God plans to do.

Not so sure about that brother ... Seems there is a difference in the definition of what Paul was talking about by 'prophesying' and that which you have here stated, but since you did put it this way ...


"[i]the heart of God and what God plans to do[/i]"

Maybe it will help to keep the more narrow focus that I likely got away from earlier.

"Likeness" ... To put this very plainly, these things being uttered, they do not sound like God to me at all.

"Out of character" comes to mind.

The scripture references, of course they do, but the ... "The Lord spoke to me and said ..." This is the very beginning and point, whatever the content, judgment, prosperity, joy, slaughter all being set aside for the moment.

The large question I am posing to others here is, does this sound like Him? Would He in fact state these things, in this fashion, with these words that our prophets are saying He is saying?

I am honestly not attempting to be difficult nor factious. I am purposefully attempting to stop an end around, I know it is unintentional ...

When I am reading the scriptures, both the Old and New are blurred enough in the right sense even within their proper distinctions .. But the voice is clear and authoritative, there is no mistaking it, Jesus communicated a great deal beyond the written page through the written page if I could put it that way. It is the distinguishing mark of His character and the Father's that I find no difference in at all.

Why is it that when I hear these oracles and supposed words from Him through His so called prophets in our day I am not hearing the same voice?

("So called" does not necessarily have to be taken as a personal dig, it is not in this instance)

S
sermonindex

Bro. Bartle I believe we have repented. The definition for repentence is 'to turn away from' or 'a change of mind'. I think we have done both of those things. We abolished slavery and gave them the same rights as any other American. If your looking for a public apology I doubt that will happen since there are no slave owners still alive. Why should we have to apologize for something we did'nt do? There have been no slave owners for many generations. We can't go back and right all the wrongs that our forefathers have done. What about the Chinese? Their not asking for an apology. What about the poor Irish? Their not asking for an apology. What about the millions of other imigrants who were exploited and mistreated in order to build someone elses empire.

I know this is touchy but it's the truth. I know what it's like to be descriminated against. your chances of becoming a firefighter in Birmingham, Alabama are slim to none if your white.

I think we should move on.

J-bird

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone.

Just thinking after reading through some here, of the nature of some of the things we go about to discuss, of our comportment in, and of, and through it all. And the question comes to mind

[i]...is it a light thing?[/i]

I would, and do, ask this so gently

[i]...is it a light thing?[/i]

Is there no weight to these words... in our souls?

I
IRONMAN

bro Mike C

It does seem peculiar that we live an a country with more "bible teaching", indeed more 'prophecy' then any other nation...yet is there not a growing famine in the land for God's word?

this is an interesting fact you bring up here bro. could it be that while indeed there is some false prophets prophesying falsely that some are true and are raising the alarm about this famine?the lack of reverence for the word of God is reason enough for us to be ripe for judgement since men have no regard for the word and this don't follow it and displease God.

But perhaps noticing a famine is a sign of hunger...the wilderness is the place where true blessing is appreciated.

i feel you on this one bro.

Likewise, today when I hear prophets saying Judgement is coming...I can honestly testify that for some I know it has already come...and tremble with the acknowledgement that even in God's judgement he restrains his hand in mercy...realizing that there are levels of judgements that can be had.

indeed bro indeed.

Now here is what breaks my heart about many of today's prophets. Many prophecy along the lines of the very material and economic prosperity that many have been delivered from living for. So when they say "You will lose you financial security..." (Not much is said beyond that it seems) Well many do not have it in the first place...And if those who were poor in money, but rich in Christ did not have the encouraging presence of the Holy Spirit within, they might very well agree with the jewish writer who quipped. "God is always hardest on the poor."

i guess there is a lot of prophecy concerning the material/economic and i feel the reason is that while as you said many have been freed from living solely for that, many more remain in bondage. now to be fair this will affect everyone and will bring many to repentance and then to a place where we lean wholly on God in a very real way. i suppose since money is the thing which preoccupies many people, this is something which will hit home in a very tangable way. it will hit where it hurts most for many people. obviously bro Mike you're one who has been loosed form such living and so are many of us here i'm sure, yet i think we all know someone who is still in bondage...

Yet if economic hard times come to America, those who are already poor will suffer the greatest...and the wealthiest will suffer only irriation and inconvenience, something that will seem like a terrible shock I'm sure...but their bellies won't go empty. (John F. Kennedy once remarked of his childhood in the 1930's, that he had to learn about the Great Depression in a college history course.)

the poor will suffer but some will come to an understanding and knowledge of God of staggering proportions. surely God will make provision in a mighty way, a miraculous way for His own which are afflicted. the wicked may yet have their wealth taken from them and have it assigned to whomever God chooses.

My own perspective, (which is quite informed from sins of tragic material folly far beyond most people I have met, and also blessed by a merciful and deep repentance in this area) is that judgement is not the loss of money...but the loss of abiding in Christ, and He within me... that results in slumber. Take away my money if you must Lord...just take not thy Holy Spirit from me.

bless the Lord for deliverance and for your testimony bro Mike! i think though the loss of money will expose just how far from abiding in Christ many saints have come...

bless the Lord for the last sentance of this section of your post, take not thy Holy SPirit from me. that is my prayer too bro.

Take heart American saints...God's mercy sometimes let's us play out our own folly to bring us to the end of ourselves. We've made a mess of things for sure...but if you have the unction to pray for repentance then run, don't walk to the altar, and make things right with God. The unction is proof that he loves you...don't trifle with such treasure.

indeed bro, the bottom line is that this judgement is grace and mercy all the same, albeit harsh on the flesh. however better to suffer for a short season and repent and be reconciled than to suffer for all eternity...when the dust settles, we will closer to God than we were at the first brethren and it is this which i look forward to. when we can all worship in Spirit and in Truth and be on one accord as it was at the first.

I
IRONMAN

bro Mike C

Still looking for you to come back to Columbus for that cup of coffee and fellowship!

as am i bro, not sure when our Lord will open that door but i know we are closer to that day!

I
IRONMAN

bro J-Bird

Bro. ironman i have to admit, these little things have been very hard to do. i have went through some very hard persecution by my piers because I stood firm.

bless our Lord He gives us grace enough to endure and to do what He asks of us.

I also have to admit that the loneliness has almost been too much to bear. I've broken under extreme pressure a few times just so I could have SOME fellowship. You'll be ostrasized for standing firm. People will acuse you of being antisocial or holier than thou.

indeed it is a lonely thing sometimes to be Faithful to our Lord in terms of not having fellowship with like-minded folk sometimes, but we are not alone since God is with us. that gives me much comfort.

The fact is most the time these are so called christians telling the jokes and using profanity. I have very seldom if ever found a work partner who just wanted to talk about normal things such as family or the Lord.

this is true and that may make it hard sometimes to speak out against such but we have to all the same.

I had one lady who found out I was a preacher actually flash me. Thank God that at that moment he made it to where I did'nt see it. They will despise you bro. I'm telling you. They hate us especially if you will not compromise. I've had them gang up on me and use some of the worst vulgarity you could imagine to see what I would do.

that's crazy...i've had people gang up on me also like i said in the last post to you but bless God He gave me words to speak...otherwise i'd have been toast.

I had one lady talk about some sexual acts in front of me that would make a prostitute blush.I actually had to leave one job because things got so bad I almost had a nervous breakdown. we had a gay guy there that had an affair with a married man and stirred up so much trouble that the tension was almost unbearable when you walked in the room. I asked him how he walked around with all that guilt and shame. I can honestly say that I have tried my best to be a light despite the constant rebuke. I have failed at times in being as strong as I should be, but I learned from that and it made me stronger.

bless the Lord for your testimony because it reminds me God's grace is sufficient.

God bless and keep you bro

I
IRONMAN

bro Crsschk

Not so sure about that brother ... Seems there is a difference in the definition of what Paul was talking about by 'prophesying' and that which you have here stated, but since you did put it this way ...

well also Paul spoke of how one can prophesy and not be a prophet necessarily right? ultimately though whether one has the gift of prophecy or is a prophet, the bottom line is it is God who speaks which is why i feel what i feel about the prophet and his role.

"Likeness" ... To put this very plainly, these things being uttered, they do not sound like God to me at all.

now we're getting somewhere! what do you think this should sound like?

The large question I am posing to others here is, does this sound like Him? Would He in fact state these things, in this fashion, with these words that our prophets are saying He is saying?

i wonder if perhaps the people living in the days of the prophets asked/thought the same thing as mentioned above?

I am honestly not attempting to be difficult nor factious. I am purposefully attempting to stop an end around, I know it is unintentional ...

i know bro and it is good because this is something we all ought to consider.

When I am reading the scriptures, both the Old and New are blurred enough in the right sense even within their proper distinctions .. But the voice is clear and authoritative, there is no mistaking it, Jesus communicated a great deal beyond the written page through the written page if I could put it that way. It is the distinguishing mark of His character and the Father's that I find no difference in at all.

i suppose that in reading the scriptures with the knowledge that this is indeed God's word, our perspective on what/how the prophets spoke is clear, it's in scripture after all. even so, we can sometimes misinterpret the word and this causes a slew of problems.some of us here are not mentioned in scripture, nor do we have books in scripture :-P . i hope you get the heart of what i'm trying to say here bro. i wonder how aware we are of how God communicated with His prophets, evidently they wrote down a whole lot...it seems God would dictate and they would write down. something to consider?

("So called" does not necessarily have to be taken as a personal dig, it is not in this instance)

are you giving us the option of doing so bro?!? :-P

i know you mean well bro and i bless our Lord for this dialogue.

I
IRONMAN

bro Chris
i think there is a gravity to all this which we realize, maybe not fully, but enough to compell us to dig deeper. at least for me anyway.

S
sermonindex

you wrote, in response to my saying that this nation needs to repent AS A NATION for slavery, to which you replied:

Bro. Bartle I believe we have repented.

Thats not the truth and you know it.

"We" didnt abolish slavery, "we" had to smash the slavocracy with FORCE and with bloodshed.

"we gave them the "same rights"?

really now?

like the right to vote?

like the right to urinate and defecate in the same public bathroom as a white person?

like the right to live a life in the deep south without the threat of getting lynched?

like the right to eat at the same lunch counter as a white person?

like the right to play baseball in Major leagues?

I noticed you waving the flag in your previous posts, than stand by it, and in standing by it, you too, as well as me are accountable for the sins of our nation.

What about the Chinese? What the Irish? they came here under their own steam, their own volition, the African slave DID NOT.

THATS THE TRUTH.

I know what it's like to be descriminated against.

I do too, I got a bi-racial sister, and the "white" half of her is Jew...fine mix aint it? She'd sure have a gas down in old Birmingham, wouldn't she? Thats sure is a city with a fine record of racial tolerance, aint it?
(and her husband, my bro-in-law, his people come from Mississipi, he has wonderful stories of life in that progressive state.)

I didnt know there was any difference between us until as an 8 year old, until I heard a sweet white kid called my 4 year old sister a "nigger".

he got a brick thrown at him, teach him a lil lesson that all Jew boys aint pencil necked wimps ready to stand around and take the bigotry and filth from a polluted soul racist.

Don't talk to me about Birmingham or Alabama, didja ever notice that the first two of three Freedom Rider martyr's were Jews?...a city with a fine noble history...Bull Connor, 'member him?

You white boys down there that purport to follow Jesus should get on your faces and repent for the sins of your forefathers, its a terrible terrible legacy, ESPECIALLY for those who claim Jesus as Savior.

Who do you think were the "conductors" on the Underground Railroad?

fully yielded born again followers of Jesus.

we should move on?

no, we're just beginning.

neil

oh ps....if you want to fight fires and not worry about being white here's this tidbit:

A fraternal group that represents hundreds of Black New York fire fighters recently accused the Fire Department of New York (FDNY) of discrimination in hiring and promotions.

The complaint was filed in August with the EEOC.

"Basically, it's against the Fire Department--everything from recruitment to promotions to background investigations of job applicants," said Capt. Paul Washington, president of the Vulcan Society, which represents New York's Black firefighters.

The New York Fire Department's 11,500-member force is 90% White. Blacks currently make up 3% of the department; Latinos and Asians comprise 2.7% and women account for less than half a percent.

The Department had been trying to recruit minorities for the entrance exam later this year with its "Heroes Wanted" campaign. Although overall applications dropped sharply from 23,000 when the entrance exam was last given in 1990 to 7,500 this year, representatives of minority groups said that only 24% of the applicants were people of color or women.

"That means, based on their current numbers, we will have the same percentage coming on the job that now exists," Washington said, who added that the society has long complained of the small number of Blacks despite a number of minority recruitment campaigns over the years.

maybe New York's the answer

K
KingJimmy


Jay is correct, rather than giving the benefit of the doubt however, I find none of this to be prophetic whatsoever.

I concur. While I believe in modern day prophetic utterances, and count myself as a rather 'minor prophet,' this 'prophecy' simply doesn't bear witness with my spirit as being from the Lord.

I
IRONMAN

bro KJ

I concur. While I believe in modern day prophetic utterances, and count myself as a rather 'minor prophet,' this 'prophecy' simply doesn't bear witness with my spirit as being from the Lord.

fair enough, i still have till jan 1 '08 till i know for sure!what sort of word are we expecting to hear from God? just as a matter of interest and not asking this in a spirit of contention. what's a minor prophet anyway? :-?

K
KingJimmy


what's a minor prophet anyway?

I'm just a nobody.

I
IRONMAN


KingJimmy wrote:

what's a minor prophet anyway?

I'm just a nobody.

bro KJ
oh ok i see :-D

God bless you bro

S
sermonindex

Bro. Bartle it sounds to me like your the one with the bitter racist attitude. Jewish people in this country thrive. Most of Hollywood is Jewish.

Is it because I'm from the South?

Or maybe I stand a little too firm for my country.

I know you said that about slavery to see how I would respond. I'm not that nieve.

It sounds like you've been hurt, and when we get hurt, we tend to lash out at the very people who care about us the most. I HATE racism brother. If you've ever been in the military you'd know that the only color were taught to see is the color green. You could have someone from ANY race watching your back.

You know what it's like to see your brother beat up by a bunch of RICH kids and all you can do is stand there and watch why they hold you back. Or do you know what it's like to be beat up by a black kid why the black COACH holds you so he can do it and the only reason is because your white.

I got pain to.

How about getting picked on every day because you where the most ragged clothes in the school.

You know why you don't like me. Because I'm southern and you automatically put a label on me. You don't know me brother, and if you did you would probably eat your words.

So go ahead and use me for your punching bag, I can take it.

You might have been mistreated but don't blame it on this country. Bad things happen.

I wish I could help you heal. We need Jewish christians with your background to help others. But youll never be any good if you don't take care of that pain. You need to turn it over to Jesus brother. You need to let it go and cast your cares upon him.

Easier said than done, right? I know the feeling.

There are millions of Bartles out there just like you who hate J-birds like me just because were southern, and that my friend is wrong. Were your biggest fans. Were right there with you, and we have a painful past also. So why don't we heal together and help each other, rather than tear each other down.

What do you say brother. Truce?

J-bird

C
Compton

as am i bro, not sure when our Lord will open that door but i know we are closer to that day!

Bless you brother. I just wanted to make sure you knew this wasn't some "social politeness". I really meant it!

One of these days!

MC

S
sermonindex


bartle wrote:
you wrote, in response to my saying that this nation needs to repent AS A NATION for slavery, to which you replied:
Bro. Bartle I believe we have repented.

Thats not the truth and you know it.

"We" didnt abolish slavery, "we" had to smash the slavocracy with FORCE and with bloodshed.

"we gave them the "same rights"?

really now?

like the right to vote?

like the right to urinate and defecate in the same public bathroom as a white person?

like the right to live a life in the deep south without the threat of getting lynched?

like the right to eat at the same lunch counter as a white person?

like the right to play baseball in Major leagues?

(All of this happened before my time. I'm ready to move on. Our generation has a better opportunity to prosper than any other generation EVER.)

I noticed you waving the flag in your previous posts, than stand by it, and in standing by it, you too, as well as me are accountable for the sins of our nation.

What about the Chinese? What the Irish? they came here under their own steam, their own volition, the African slave DID NOT.

(they were still exploited and mistreated)

THATS THE TRUTH.

I know what it's like to be descriminated against.

I do too, I got a bi-racial sister, and the "white" half of her is Jew...fine mix aint it?

(I bet shes beutiful)

She'd sure have a gas down in old Birmingham, wouldn't she?

(she'd do just fine since the black population of birmingham control all of the offices and buisnesses)

Thats sure is a city with a fine record of racial tolerance, aint it?

(Yea it's a shame.)

(and her husband, my bro-in-law, his people come from Mississipi, he has wonderful stories of life in that progressive state.)

(I could imagine)

I didnt know there was any difference between us until as an 8 year old, until I heard a sweet white kid called my 4 year old sister a "nigger".

he got a brick thrown at him, teach him a lil lesson that all Jew boys aint pencil necked wimps ready to stand around and take the bigotry and filth from a polluted soul racist.

(Well good he deserved it!)

Don't talk to me about Birmingham or Alabama, didja ever notice that the first two of three Freedom Rider martyr's were Jews?...a city with a fine noble history...Bull Connor, 'member him?

You white boys down there that purport to follow Jesus should get on your faces and repent for the sins of your forefathers, its a terrible terrible legacy, ESPECIALLY for those who claim Jesus as Savior.

Who do you think were the "conductors" on the Underground Railroad?

fully yielded born again followers of Jesus.

(I would'nt bet on that.)[b]I, or my father, or my fathers father had nothing to do with that[/b]

M
MrBillPro

This thread has really confused me, are we making progress here? :-?

H
hisremnant

Praise Jesus!!


MrBillPro wrote:
This thread has really confused me, are we making progress here? :-?

Yeah Bill i think we are. Before we can (allow) God to judge America. We must first judge one another. Real Christian huh? Well i gotta go, seems to be something in my eye. Looks like a plank or a beam.

Blessings Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

I
IRONMAN

bro Mike

Bless you brother. I just wanted to make sure you knew this wasn't some "social politeness". I really meant it!

most definately! somehow i think those of us who have met here will some day come to know one another and fellowship on this side of heaven.

oh look, one less day till that day! ;-)

S
sermonindex

(as I responded to your PM)

you did not understand the words of my post, and I don't say that as an insult.

You say that I "hate" you?

Jesus weaned the word "hate" out of my lexicon, no where in my post to you, did I use the word "hate". So who would put this in your mind?

not me, and definitely not God.

so who? ponder that.

I will say this again as the Spirit leads, until this nation, one nation UNDER God, and it must led by the Church, that is the Body of Christ, turns to our African-American brothers and sisters and asks forgiveness on a national level for the sin of slavery, on whose foundations this nation was birthed, we will never be fully heal or be reconcilled. I PRAY you understand what I am saying.

It starts with the Church, because you can't expect the lost within the body politic to understand either the Ministry of Christ, or the what the Kingdom of Heaven looks like:

The Ministry of Jesus is about reconciliation, both vertical and horizontal, first vertical, man reconciled to God, then man reconciled to one another, thats the Cross.

And as i go back in our nations history, the sin of slavery, and the continuing divide, both ways, between the two races, is the most fetid cesspool of corporate, that is, national sin that will prevent our nation from continuing to recieve the Blessings of God.

Some may question what happened at Azusa Street in Los Angeles in 1906, but what happpened there was God-breathed, and let me tell you why: It was the first time since the Civil War, that was when blacks and whites joined hands worshipping the Lord in Spirit and in Truth, and the secular press of the day heaped scorn upon this. Their little church was a humble barn, and the services led by the Holy Ghost was nominally led by a one-eyed black preacher, whose face was scarred by smallpox. Whites and blacks holding hands, and the secular press heaped scorn upon this, and grievously, later the flesh took sway, and white and blacks went back to the old patterns and seperated out, hence this move of God separated into two churchs, the mostly white AoG and the mostly black COGIC.

try this: go into Google and put "Cashwell Azusa Dunn" into the search box, and you will see how God is about reonciliation. Let me give you a taste:



The 1906 annual conference of the Pentecostal Holiness Church of North Carolina was notable for the absence of Gaston B. Cashwell, one of the leading evangelists and pastors in the new denomination since he left Methodism to join the new church in 1903. Crumpler, the leader of the conference, read a letter from Cashwell that greatly interested the delegates. In it he asked forgiveness from anyone he had offended and announced that he was going to Los Angeles "to seek for the baptism of the Holy Ghost."

For several months there had been great interest in the Azusa Street revival throughout the South because of the glowing eyewitness accounts by Frank Bartleman in the Way of Faith, a regional Holiness magazine. Cashwell was the only minister venturesome enough to take action. He decided to make the long journey to Los Angeles to find out for himself if this was indeed the new Pentecost they had been praying for and expecting for years. Trusting God to supply his needs, he bought a one-way train ticket to Los Angeles and traveled in the only suit he owned.

Once in Los Angeles, Cashwell went directly to the Azusa Street Mission. He was dismayed at what he saw. The pastor, William J. Seymour, was a black man, as were most of his worshippers. When blacks laid hands upon him to receive the baptism, he abruptly left the meeting confused and disappointed. That night, however, God dealt with his racial prejudices and gave him a love for blacks and a renewed hunger to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. The next night, at Cashwell's request, Seymour and several young blacks laid hands again on this Southern gentlemen, who was baptized in the Spirit and, according to his own account, spoke perfect German. Before Cashwell returned to North Carolina, Seymour and the Azusa faithful took up an offering and presented him with a new suit and enough money for the return journey.

I didnt post that to indulge/engage in a polemic about glossalalia (speaking in tongues)

No.

The Lord knows why i posted that, and I pray He reveals the same to you.

May the Lord bless you richly is my prayer, neil

S
sermonindex

Bro. Bartle forgive my use of a harsh English vocabulary of which I inherited from my father. "You people" or "Those people" ect... It's something I've always struggled with and it causes alot of misunderstanding, especially in e-mails, and forums such as this one. I'm working on it.

There was a hint of sarcasm in your post that caught my attention. If you'll go back over your post you'll see what I mean.

I do understand what you are saying brother, but just as I stated in one of my previous posts about singling out America for repentance. I think we all need to repent. The whole world. Not just America. Not just white people.

The church needs to repent, as one brother stated in a previous post.

I preach repentance so hard that I make myself mad. I preached repentance so hard one time a deaf man got mad at me. :-)

But I do not like it when people single out America as the wickedest country on the planet and that they are the only ones that need to repent. That is where I have to step up. I think were still a giving, loving country, and we do need to repent, but were not the only ones.

Frankly, I'm just tired of hearing all the rederic about "America Needs to repent", "America the Babylon", "America the Wicked", "America the perverted", "America is about to be judged"!!!!!!

Were already being judged.

We have the highest number of cancer cases, and heart cases in the world. Were being over run with illegal immigrants and I don't think we can stop it. We now import more food than we export. Disease is on the rise. Our economy is about to crumble. Our army is ragged, and stretched to the breaking point. We have the highest rate of obesity in the world. Our people are so fat that if we were to be invaded they would have to roll them off the couch so they could fight.

How much worse could it get? It will probably get alot worse before it gets better.

J-bird

S
sermonindex

two things:

you wrote:

Were being over run with illegal immigrants

How many missionaries do we send south of border?

quite a few, right?

Don't you think that God might be sending the southern hemisphere mission field up here to us?

Most of the latinos that come up here, embrace the sort of "family values" I hear being extolled by the very people that complain about this wave of immigration, hard work, sacrifice and family. Most of them, unfortunately have been indoctrinated into the roman church, so don't you see the Hand of God in this wave of immigration?

Would to God He raise up a generation of Spanish speaking followers to give these the true Gospel,instead of the gospel of rome.

Secondly, didnt the Lord say that to whom much has been given much is expected?

We have been given much, so He expects much.

Hear me now, there are many within this nation who are attempting to do the same thing that rome did during the reign of Constantine, which was to craft a nationalized civic "religion".....and they will go same way as rome. "take America back for Christ" is their rallying cry....when that happens.......

when that happens, a terrible darkness will overtake this land, because it won't be about Jesus, it will become the synagogue of satan.

on a sidebar, respectfully, agriculture is one of the few industry sectors where we EXPORT much much more than we import, the other is entertainment content.

figure that.

S
sermonindex

I'm all for ministering to the latinos that ILLEGALY come here, but this country does have rules and regulations. we have latino ministries even in my own community.

It's hard work becoming an American citizen. There have been millions of immigrants pass through our gates who successfully jumped through the hoops and EARNED their right to be an American.

The PROBLEM is, (as was in the Roman Empire), we have too many people coming into our nation who show no allegiance to our country. They have no love for America or our culture. So instead of going through the process, they illegaly come here for one reason. To utilize our resources.

So, as a result we have people who are forming their own latino communitys and have no desire to learn OUR language or OUR culture and instead are FORCING THEIR culture on us and WE are having to CHANGE our culture in order to accomodate THEM.

There have been many latino immigrants who have earned their right to be a citizen, and they don't like it either. It's a slap in the face to them and all the other hard working American immigrants. It also puts extreme pressure on our economy. Most of them don't pay taxes. So they get a free ride. So who has to take up the slack? US

The end never justifies the means.

It was too late for the Roman Empire when the Visigoths marched in and sacked Rome. Their own army. An army of barbarians who had no love for Rome. That is the society we are creating. A people with no love for our country.

Let's minister to them while their here, but they must obey our laws and EARN their right to be an American.

It's not a RACE thing, it's just right.

What would happen if our government decided to grant them citizenship without them learning our language and culture? I'll tell you.

They would begin to open buisnesses everywhere and none of us would be able to compete because they would work so cheap that they would put our businesses out of buisness. You see? Our way of life would disappear within months.

The national language would become Spanish because they did not learn OUR language and now there is no need since they own all the buisnesses.

Now for the EXPORTING.

What happens when you export more food than you import? You become DEPENDANT on some other country for food resources. You see? Now the ball is in their court. We have to bow to them or STARVE!!

I think it is important that we "render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasars."

J-bird

God bless you brother
I'm enjoying the FRIENDLY debate.

S
sermonindex

Bro. Barlte you mentioned a movement with the cry "Take America back for Christ". This movement is not only taking place in America but the whole world.

Many people call it the ecumenical movement. All denominations will come together to form the church of the anti-christ. It's already happening. In most of our seminaries and bible schools Roman Catholic teachers have been teaching for years. They have indoctrinated our ministers and they come out more confused than when they went in.

Non-denominational churches that teach New Age ideas such as "We all serve the same God" are on the rise. Buddists ,Islam, Hindus, Christians, Jews all serve the same god we just worship in different ways. Right? I hear this all the time now.

Weve already seen those (even here on this sight) who "claim" to have prophetic gifts other than the Word of God. The spirit of the anti-christ is hard at work.

Who will the people turn to when the economy crumbles? When all is caos? When their familys begin to starve? Him who has all the answers and can solve all the problems of the world. The anti-christ himself. "They shall recieve a strong delusion, believe a lie, and be damned". He'll be a peacemaker that puts an end to all war. He'll even decieve the Jews.

You may already know all this but I'm saying this to warn others.

Are you ready?

God bless you all
Merry christmas

J-bird

S
sermonindex

I disagree totally with your stance on the Latino community, culturally, politically, morally and spiritually.

I could build you a stack of books and periodicals dating back to the early 1800's, when people were saying the same thing about the Irish, the Italians, Russians, Jews, etc etc etc etc.

I heard your kind of argument before, regarding other immigrant communities, and it just doesn't fly.

In fact when I see republican mouthpieces in the media chattering and squalling about "illegal immigration", it just blows my mind on how short-sighted they are. Most of these "illegal immigrants" are family centered folk who believe in hard work, and the republicans are turning them into Democrats. watch.

and, I would think that any believer with a burden for spreading the Gospel would be overjoyed at the prospect of God bringing the mission field from the southern Hemisphere to the north, instead of wracked with nativist fears about the "pie" somehow be wrenched from his clutching fingers. Where's your faith? Why you worried about some poor immigrant "taking jobs away", or taking provision from you or this country? You don't think He's going to provide for you and your family?

It seems to me that your wracked with too much fear;

"Don't be afraid, just believe"......Jesus said that.

"Give me your tired, your poor, your hungry"...thats my America, thats an America without fear.

why you think the powers that be, utter the word "terror" EVERY SINGLE DAY over the media?

Coz they want you full of fear, when you're full of fear, you are easier to control, and thats the name of their game...FEAR,

and fear is the opposite of Faith.

there's no debate, you can labor under that burden, the heavy burden of fear, not me.

neil

ps...we just harvested over 10 billion bushels of corn and about 3 billion bushels of soybeans, and a couple billion in wheat, I think we're okay on the food front. God is good, if you don't believe me, you go here and see:

http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/nass/CropProd//2000s/2006/CropProd-11-09-2006.txt

S
sermonindex

Here are some quotes from a man, who is most decidely NOT ecumenical:

"Our job is to reclaim America for Christ, whatever the cost. As the vice regents of God, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short, over every aspect and institution of human society."[7]
"The Christian community has a golden opportunity to train an army of dedicated teachers who can invade the public school classrooms and use them to influence the nation for Christ."[8]
"How much more forcefully can I say it? The time has come, and it is long overdue, when Christians and conservatives and all men and women who believe in the birthright of freedom must rise up and reclaim America for Jesus Christ." [9]


now who said this?

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._James_Kennedy]the man who wants to reclaim america for christ[/url]

and here's ONE of his websites:

http://www.reclaimamerica.org/

what say you now?

You kind of agree with him, don't you?

I pray not.

S
sermonindex

Come on Bartle. Take off the blinders brother.

Why is it that every time money, or buisness comes up people think your some kind of stingy, fat, greedy, American that only cares about his own self. I'm not worried about me. I KNOW Gods gonna take care of me and my family, and if I lose everything I own than God is STILL good.

I'm talking about the health of a nation. In order to have a healthy society rules have to be followed or else it will cease to exist.

It might be different if they were fleeing from a crazed, genocidal, maniac such as Hitler. It might be different if they were fleeing a famine that was killing them by the millions such as the Irish.

The ONLY reason they are coming here is to benefit from our resources and give NOTHING back.

This is not about being a christian it's about the health and well being of our society. If they want to benefit from this country they need to give their share back to it. Were already plagued with people who think the government owes them something. They abuse, and use our system because their too fat, and lazy to work. They want everything handed to them and the worst part about it is they think the government OWES it to them. A generation of bums. I say GET A JOB!!! PROVIDE FOR YOUR FAMILYS!!!

Oh, by the way I'm not afraid, just a concerned citizen looking out for my country. I WANT my country to go on prospering, and feeding the world, and being the defenders of the free world, but, if we don't have rules it's just anarchy. If we don't survive as a country were no good to anyone.

So many people think that when you become a christian you should just assasinate your brain and live in the clouds. Just isolate yourself from all civic dutys and not worry about anything. No, God gives us a brain and we should ALL do what we can to help our country and protect the freedoms and privelages that we have. If we don't, who will?

Maybe we should just all go join a Mennonite or Omish community. Or maybe a monistary, that would be even better.

Anyway, I guess well just have to agree to disagree.

J-bird

S
sermonindex

Brethren,

Are we fighting against flesh and blood? Is our kingdom an earthly kingdom? Where are our hearts, our treasures? The Apostle Paul wrote, "If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." Col. 3:1-3

Let us leave behind all weapons of the flesh and seek what the perfect will of God is. This country is not your home, is it?

In Christ,
Slavyan

C
Chariot

Amen Slavyan,

I've often wondered, what would it mean to take our citizenship from Heaven seriously? In what way are we embassadors to this world, even to the country we find oursleves to have been born into? How far are we willing to be strangers in this world - what does that mean?

I really tried to refraim from entering the 'fray' but i couldnt resist.

J-Bird wrote:

The ONLY reason they are coming here is to benefit from our resources and give NOTHING back.

America is pulling resources from all corners of this world to sustain a way of life headed for a cliff. It trades with governments rich in resources yet the surrounding population live in destitution. I read somewhere that these immigrants are just "following the resources taken from their country." And where do these immigrants find their resources flowing to?

"Though accounting for only 5 percent of the world's population, Americans consume 26 percent of the world's energy". (American Almanac).

"Worldwide, some 2 billion people are currently without electricity". (U.S. Department of Energy)

"America uses about 15 times more energy per person than does the typical developing country."

I posted these quotes not to create guilt, but to show the yawning disparity of distribution of the worlds resources.

We import 15% of our oil from Mexico. There is something very telling about these statistics...

I
IRONMAN

bro Chariot
interesting numbers there...i suppose we ought to seriously consider those things and wonder how God feels about it. i'd not ever looked at the immigration issue as one of the immigrants following their home nation's resources...

it seems we are the world's biggest consumers...when the economy takes the plunge off that cliff, a whole lot of people will be left hurting...not just here but all over.

God help us!

S
sermonindex

Alright, this is not about how many resources the United States uses. We pay for those resources. I don't remember anyone saying we stold them.

For us not to end up like Mexico (with a corrupt money, and power hungry government) RULES and LAWS have to be establishes and ENFORCED, or history proves that government WILL TURN on the people, but that is a whole other arguement.

The issue is (what are the effects of a vast number of illegal alliens coming through the borders of a country CONSUMING, but not helping MAINTAIN our resources such as MONEY, TAXES?) And what are the effects if they have no desire to become part of that culture such as(learning the language, learning the history, learning how to be an effective, productive citizen, WHICH TAKES YEARS TO LEARN, of which many Americans already neglect?)

What kind of impact will that have and what does the future look like if that country continues in this manner?

The difference in these immigrants and the ones that came before them is this.

They don't WANT to BECOME American. They show that by breaking the rules and illegaly coming here and staying here. I would love to see each and every one of them become American citizens, but only by following the same rules everyone else has to follow.

To answer the question above. I could never do ENOUGH to be an ambassador for my Lord. I could never do ENOUGH to be an ambassador for my country. But I would like to say that I do SOME. What are you doing for Jesus? What are you doing for your country?

J-bird

S
sermonindex

Also, if you'll check the Department of agriculture, and compare to what we used to export you'll see a decline. Our farmers can't afford the gas and fertlizer it takes to maintain the crops, and many of them are getting out of farming. Beef is not exported like it once was and is in steady decline.

It's cheaper to bye from Brazil, and Argentina, ect... than to bye from our own people.

I have a father in law who is a farmer, and many people here are farmers, so I stay pretty well informed.

Maybe well end up like Russia and have to stand in line for hours for a loaf of bread, but thats not OUR problem. Right? We shall see.

I'm not trying to scare people or be controversial, but I'm not gonna neglect responsibility.

J-bird

Merry Christmas

C
Chariot

Yes bro IRONMAN,

this global network is intricately tied together. Many parts of the world will suffer if America suffers a blow economically. Its been said when the US sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold.

Alright, this is not about how many resources the United States uses. We pay for those resources. I don't remember anyone saying we stold them.

You are right J-Bird, we pay for those resources. However the way the system was original set up, that every nation would buy and trade in US denominated bills for oil made it difficult for weaker countries to bid for oil.

I understand your argument against illegal immigration. It hold a lot of merit.

To answer the question above

If you are referring to the question i began my last quote, those questions were not so much as aimed at anyone in particular, as they were questions of reflection.

As it relates to the problems besetting America, I don't see how the influx of immigrants has any bearing on God's Kingdom. I guess for me, the question is, what does a Christian have at stake in a world that is passing away?

Which leads me to your question

What are you doing for your country?

I'm trying to awake people from the American DREAM that has been pulled over their eyes. I'm trying to let them know that our way of life cannot be sustained in a world of finite resources that dwindle day by day. I don't do it for Americas sake, i do it to turn them unto that City who's maker is GOD.

God Bless
Rob

F
fattyslim

I have been to many places in the world. i am currently in Iraq. Yes there is much ungodlyness in America, but it is also one of the very few places in the world that you can preach the truth without being stopped. i think God has blessed America just for the reason. Jesus peached a whosoever will gospel, and it is that way for many at home. Some may come and live Godly and other may live in sin, but we have a choice of either. I have been to places where i have seen people killed for preaching the gospel. So let us not blame one nation or another. Insteed why dont we start with are selfs, and then are family and childern. Then maybe are freinds and then towns. Then maybe just maybe it will work all the way up to each nation.

I
IRONMAN

brethren
bro J-Bird you said this:

Alright, this is not about how many resources the United States uses. We pay for those resources. I don't remember anyone saying we stold them.

so i wanted to know if anyone knew why it was that in spite of this, gas prices in some of those nations we buy oil from is higher than it is here?


For us not to end up like Mexico (with a corrupt money, and power hungry government) RULES and LAWS have to be establishes and ENFORCED, or history proves that government WILL TURN on the people, but that is a whole other arguement.

i think it's a bit late for that now because there is some corruption...well quite a bit of corruption in the government. pork-barrelling, shady lobbying and campaign financing etc. perhaps it's not as plain as it is in mexico but it is there. if government doesn't enforce the laws, isn't it the people who will then upturn the government? :-?

The issue is (what are the effects of a vast number of illegal alliens coming through the borders of a country CONSUMING, but not helping MAINTAIN our resources such as MONEY, TAXES?) And what are the effects if they have no desire to become part of that culture such as(learning the language, learning the history, learning how to be an effective, productive citizen, WHICH TAKES YEARS TO LEARN, of which many Americans already neglect?)

i wonder if this is a judgement in and of itself? one could argue that the subduing of this nation from the natives was hardly legal. just something to consider. on the one hand the laws ought to be enforced but if they are broken and not dealt with by the government, how much more stuff is the government going by unchecked?

i wonder also if the struggle our farmers and other industries are having is somehow because of poor policies/stewardship of God's resources?none of this is happening randomly or without cause/reason.there is something else going on here which i fear we can't/won't see. is our nation in decline/facing judgment because of our hypocrisy and poor sense (in some regards) of social justice?

the topic at hand is "America Facing Judgment?" do we think maybe God is blind to our trangressions as a nation? does anyone think we are above reproach/correction?

S
sermonindex

here's where I drop out of this thread:

Come on Bartle. Take off the blinders brother.

thats a real conversation starter, but it's more than that: you have a real discernible rascist spirit in you, and I say that by reading these two statements you made:

The ONLY reason they are coming here is to benefit from our resources and give NOTHING back

and

Were already plagued with people who think the government owes them something. They abuse, and use our system because their too fat, and lazy to work. They want everything handed to them and the worst part about it is they think the government OWES it to them. A generation of bums. I say GET A JOB!!! PROVIDE FOR YOUR FAMILYS!!!

Who exactly do you mean?

and you call yourself a follower of Jesus?

we're done bud.

I
IRONMAN

bro Rob
i feel you bro. another brother said to me that where america goes, so goes the world...

them petrodollars seem to be losing steam. it is interesting the influence america has by making it so that most trade, not just oil trade is one in u.s. dollars. it does make it hard for other nations where the exchange rates can be quite high. also american companies and european ones set up shop in developing countries and write contracts which benefit them more than the home country. might it be that this imbalance caused God grief? i think of how God felt about those who used fake weights in Israel when buying and selling goods...God dealt with that very severely...some things to think about?

I guess for me, the question is, what does a Christian have at stake in a world that is passing away?

i hope nothing otherwise there will be weeping and wailing and mourning...

I'm trying to awake people from the American DREAM that has been pulled over their eyes. I'm trying to let them know that our way of life cannot be sustained in a world of finite resources that dwindle day by day. I don't do it for Americas sake, i do it to turn them unto that City who's maker is GOD.

this is an important thing. i guess since God has quickened me to it without me seeking Him, i see clearly where this is going and it's not good...i mean even an unbeliever with some measure of common sense can see that house values/prices for example can't continue to rise indefinately without them crashing at some point...the whole idea is nuts...the way we live can't sustained forever and those who think it can will be very unhappy when it falls apart...them the ones whose hope is not in the Lord...

S
sermonindex

Bro. Bartle wrote

You white boys down there who purport to follow Jesus ought to get on you faces and repent for the sins of you forefathers

Could just be me, but this seems kinda racist.

No sir, I think your the one with the problem.

I'm just shootin it straight, and you don't like it.

I could care less what color they were.

I'm a paramedic. If you could see the world I see, you would understand.

I don't expect you to understand. Most people don't. I'f you ever worked in law enforcement, fire, or ems you would understand.

I'm not singling out any one race Bartle. It's everywhere.

Drugs, immorality, and just pure laziness is killing our country.

So, if your done with me, so be it. I wish it were the other way.

Somewhere deep inside you know what I'm saying is true. You can call me a racist, or whatever but you know that's not the case, or maybe you don't. As I said before, I can't shake the southern stigma. I can't help it that I'm southern, and I DON'T apologize for it either.

I have black preacher friends, and Spanish friends, and they'll pretty much say the same things I'm saying.

So, is it christian to discuss these kind of things? I think it is.

J-bird

D
DoulosQuinn

We have millions that consume to fill the lack of living water, GOD loves us all to much to let millions be deceived into chasing “broken cisterns”, I believ HE hold back the flood until the saints finish HIS work among us and through us.

Quinn

D
death2self

My prayer for America for the last 2-3 years has been the prayer of Habakkuk "O LORD, I have heard thy speech, [and] was afraid: O LORD, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy."

I'm praying for God's mercy in the midst of his judgment.

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