Entire Sanctification...Really?

I grew up going to a Nazarene church. I was saved many miles from home while not attending any church. Upon returning to my hometown, I began meeting with this pastor to ask questions and the like. I was a new Christian and was eager to learn, having already felt the calling to ministry. I knew next to nothing about any doctrine and he told me he had not sinned in twenty-some years and that I was going to hell if I did. That was it. He did NOT sin.

This man was, and is, not perfect. It seems to me that he redefined sin. Going by this “new” definition it is easy for him to say he has no sin, but most people see it differently.

His teaching of “Sinless Perfection” contains a state that is impossible to achieve. I stopped going to this church after only a few meetings with him, and now, some years later, have only recently started to investigate entire sanctification, due to a spark of interest that occurred while studying church history and John Wesley.

I currently attend a church with a few grace as a license to sin types that say “its ok, we all fall short” all the time.

It would seem that both sides are not truly seeing the sinfulness of sin, and what a horrendous thing it is. One side embraces it as no big deal, while the other simply repackages it so they cannot see it; effectively hiding it from themselves ,and getting them out of having to deal with it.

Holiness is oh so important !

If the article I am giving a link to holds water then…I…well…

I really would appreciate having some input by some of you that have a more thorough understanding of this “entire sanctification” thing.

I hunger and thirst for righteousness. I long for holiness.

Please read the entire article. He quotes Brennan Manning, and that raised a flag, but the article has some points and explanations I had not heard before and they really have me thinking.

Please let me have your opinions on this subject, but especially this description.

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/entire.htm

I will be working alot in the next few days, starting tonight, but will try to check in.

God bless you all

TJ

Hello Travis,

When I was growing up, I spent some of my time going to a holiness church and heard much about "entire sanctification." Quite honestly I rejected it for a whole host of reasons, the primary thing in retrospective this many years later was my own rebellion. I considered it anti-intellectual and unscriptural both assertions which have been proven by the Holy Spirit to my satisfaction to be false.

I have spent most of 2006 earnestly seeking this experience and have read many of the holiness classics on the topic. One of my favorite books is entitled "Perfect Love" by a wonderful man of God named J.A. Wood. It's in an easy to read format here: [url=http://www.raptureready.com/resource/wood/wood.html]Perfect Love[/url].

I read the article you cited and it explains the doctrine reasonably well but it doesn't explain how to enter into it. I saw the reference to Brennan Manning his experience doesn't equate to entire sanctification in my mind. I have hundreds of accounts of the experience, particularly by the saints of old and was blessed to receive a first edition copy of a little book called "Holy Ann -An Irish Saint and many others.

If you're interesting in reading some of the testimonies go to [url=http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.htm]Wesley Center Online[/url] and go to the Holiness Classics Library (you'll need to sign up) and go to "How They Entered Canaan." You can also go to [url=www.enterhisrest.org]Enter His Rest[/url].

There was a great holiness preacher and teacher named A.M. Hills and some of his articles are on SI. There are some very good articles here: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=499]Aaron (A.M.) Hills[/url].

I have a very straight and convicting article penned by Catherine Booth that I'm going to send you via email.

I have not yet come into that place yet but from what I have seen is those saints that I know who are sanctified have a singlemindedness for Jesus and it's not a fixation on sinless perfection. Here's how J.A. Wood explained "entire sanctification:"

19. What is entire sanctification or Christian perfection?

Negatively, it is that state of grace which excludes all sin from the heart. Positively, it is the possession of pure love to God. "Blessed are the pure in heart." "The blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanseth us from all sin." "Love is the fulfilling of the law." "The end of the commandment is love out of a pure heart." In the grace of justification, sins, as acts of transgression, are pardoned. In the grace of sanctification, sin, as a malady, is removed, so that the heart is pure. In the nature of the case, the eradication of sin in principle from the human heart completes the Christian character. When guilt is forgiven in justification, and all pollution is removed in entire sanctification, so that grace possesses the heart and nothing contrary to grace, then the moral condition is reached to which the Scriptures give the name of perfection, or entire sanctification. Though the leading writers of our Church define this gracious state in different phraseology, there is an essential agreement among them; their disagreements are more in infelicities of expression than in real differences, and more speculative than fundamental. Their essential agreement will be seen in the following quotations:

Here's a question and answer by John Wesley that I believe is relevant to your question:

Q. 11. But if all this be consistent with Christian perfection, that perfection is not freedom from all sin; seeing sin is the transgression of the law:' And the perfect transgress the very law they are under. Besides, they need the atonement of Christ; and he is the atonement of nothing but sin. Is, then, the term sinless perfection, proper?

"A. It is not worth disputing about. But observe in what sense the persons in question need the atonement of Christ. They do not need him to reconcile them to God afresh; for they are reconciled. They do not need him to restore the favour of God, but to continue it. He does not procure pardon for them anew, but `ever liveth to make intercession for them;' and `by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.' (Heb. 10:14.)

"For want of duly considering this, some deny that they need the atonement of Christ. Indeed, exceeding few; I do not remember to have found five of them in England. Of the two, I would sooner give up perfection; but we need not give up either one or the other. The perfection I hold, `Love rejoicing evermore, praying without ceasing, and in everything giving thanks,' is well consistent with it; if any hold a perfection which is not, they must look to it.

Hopefully I haven't given you too much information but feel free to send me a message if you have questions. Remember justification is by faith and sanctification is also by faith alone. We never earn anything from God but He has made provision through his precious blood to be free from the power of sin.

Our fellowship has a little radio broadcast and we played this song yesterday that recorded by the Kingsmen back in the 60s used the melody from old country song that Jim Reaves recorded, which is entitled "Please Release Me From My Sin:"

Please release me from my sin
Welcome Jesus come on in
For anly you can cleanse my soul
Release me from sin to sin no more

Let me walk on sacred ground
And lead the lost ship that you found
Just lead me on through heaven's door
Release me from sin to sin no more

Send your spirit from above
And teach me your sweet ways of love
I seek for all you have in store
Release me from sin to sin no more

Please release me from my sin...
Release me from sin to sin no more

Negatively, it is that state of grace which excludes all sin from the heart.

Are we speaking of a work of God which has 'shut out' the possibility of a single transgression from the heart or of the removal of the nature of Sin? I presume we are speaking about the latter.

Robert Barclay, the Quaker apologist, seemed to believe that George Fox had 'attained' a state of grace in which it was impossible for him to fall. Barclay was quick to say that he did not believe he himself (ie Barclay) had attained such a state.

I had a godly friend whose preaching was so absolute that many thought he was claiming a position similar to that of Fox but in his own thinking he always distinguished between the herald and the pastor. "God" he used to say "only commands what is perfect, but in some circumstances He may permit what is imperfect." As a 'herald' he would declare the absolutes of the gospel and the work of regeneration, as a 'pastor' he would spend long hours praying and encouraging saints who had fallen.

T. J.
The Nazarine Church that I attended did not practice entire Sanctification.
Someone told me the locked up the Books on Sanctification, and would not let their Members read them.
Entire Sanctification is in a small part, you are one with Jesus and you know Him in such a way that you've never known Him before.
You just do His bidding, and He reveals Himself to you. You fellowship with Him, and the majority of the Christian World thinks you are crazy, because you stay in continuious Peace and Grace.
I have been entirely sanctified, but let the cares of this life, the fear of man, and my own negligence take me away from His Presence.

We have to keep reading the Word, Praying, and just let Him know we love Him more than anyone.
I know God is going to sanctify me again, because I am searching for this sweet fellowship with my Saviour.
There isn't one word that could ever describe it, but it is over-whelming Love Of God.
God Bless you.
Keep asking, and seeking.
Nellie

It usually comes with a Crisis.
I know that I was in the Spirit and God told me to sing a Song at our Church, "Let me Touch Him."
The Pastor humiliated me in front of the whole Choir, and when I got Home that night, I prayed to die, I was so hurt.
I remember crying so hard that it seemed I would never stop.
I told my Husband that God was going to bring something good out of the situation.
I went and talked with the Pastor, and he told me that only a Man could sing that Song.
I finally told him to just let someone sing it in the Church.
He sang it.
I know that God wanted me to do the Song, but was blessed when it was sung.
In my whole life, I have never been as hurt as I was then.
God poured oil on my wounds.

I wasn't trying to usurp authority over the Pastor, but I was wanting to obey God.

Entire Sanctification is possible, Brother, and I pray He will Sanctify you Wholly.

It is God that worketh in us, both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil 2:13

Ron said

"Are we speaking of a work of God which has 'shut out' the possibility of a single transgression from the heart or of the removal of the nature of Sin? I presume we are speaking about the latter."

From those I've known who have entered into this experience, the joy of the Lord has been palpable and unescapable. They're not proud but humble because sanctification is God's work, not man's. We can't earn it. It comes by faith alone, not by works.

Here's a quote from Reverend J.A. Wood's book entitled "Perfect Love:"

27. Do you teach a sinless perfection?

Our answer must be according to what is meant by "sinless perfection;" which is a term we never use in teaching Christian perfection.

1. If by sinless perfection be meant infallibility, or a state in which the soul cannot sin, we answer, No. We believe in no such perfection in this life; and further, we know of no one who teaches any such thing, although has been asserted over and over, thousands of times, by the opposers of Christian perfection.

2. If by this term be meant, a perfect fulfillment of the Paradisiacal law of innocence, and freedom from all voluntary transgressions of the law of love, we answer, No. Mr. Wesley says: "Therefore sinless perfection is phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself. I believe a person filled with the love of God still liable to these involuntary transgressions. Such transgressions you may call sins, if you please; I do not." Plain Account, p. 67

3. If by this phrase be meant, a perfect observance of the evangelical law of love, so as to love God with all the heart, soul, and strength, we answer, by the grace of God, Yes. See Deut. xxx. 6.

4. If it be meant a moral condition, in which the soul has no disposition to sin, and will not sin, and by the grace of God is kept from sinning, we answer Yes, to the glory and praise of God.

5. If this question means, does God fully pardon all our sinful acts and absolve us from all guilt, and does He entirely cleanse the soul from a sinful state, so that it becomes pure, or entirely free from sinful proclivities we answer, Yes.

28. Does Christian Perfection exclude a need of the atonement?

No; not for a moment. All Christian life is in Christ, and is dependent upon Him, as the branch upon the vine. "I am the vine, ye are the branches. -- Without me ye can do nothing." The pure in heart abide it Christ, by a continuous faith, which is the vital bond of union with him. Sever this connection, and the spiritual life of the soul ceases at once. Christ does not give life to the soul separate from, but in and with himself.

Purity of heart sharpens the spiritual vision and secures steady and unbroken reliance upon the atonement; hence, those cleansed from all sin, in the fullest sense "live by faith on the Son of God." None see their need of the atonement so clearly, or feel their need of its merits so deeply, as the entirely sanctified. He, more than any other man, feels, --

"Every moment, Lord, I need The merit of thy death."

It requires the same power to sustain creation, it did to produce it; so, it requires the same Jesus who cleansed the soul, to keep it clean. Cleansing grace is keeping grace, and is retained, as it was obtained, by faith. In Christ they are, and in Christ they must abide. Their only danger is in apostasy. "According to your faith be it unto you," is the divine order in keeping as well as in receiving grace. "Who are kept by the power God through faith unto salvation."

Dr. Clarke observes: "What is it that cleanseth the soul and destroys sin? Is it not the mighty power of the grace of God? What is it that keeps the soul clean? Is it not the same power dwelling in us? No more can an effect subsist without its use, than a sanctified soul abide in holiness without the indwelling Sanctifier." -- Clarke's Theology, p. 187.

Mr. Fletcher says: "To say that the doctrine of Christian perfection supersedes the need of Christ's blood, is not less absurd than to assert that the perfection of navigation renders the great deep a useless reservoir of water." -- Last Check, p. 574.

Praise Jesus!!!

tjservant wrote:

I hunger and thirst for righteousness. I long for holiness.

Mt 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled.

Love your desire and thirst for truth.

Read John Wesleys "Marks of the new birth" If you cant locate it pm me. And please keep posting even on (do not judge)

Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

Wesley is pretty unique in this doctrine. Personally I don't believe we can achieve glorification (or perfection) here on earth. Still it gives no liscense to living in sin (in case that's not clear).

2 Corinthians 1:10
who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us,

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”

1 Peter 1:2
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

[url=http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/bbwentire.htm]BB Warfield on entire sanctification.[/url]

[url=http://www.peacemakers.net/unity/joholyspirit15.htm]John Owen on Entire Sacnctification HERE.[/url]

[url=http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/sanctification.html]More on Sanctification at Monergism.org HERE![/url]

2 Peter 3:17,18; 2 Thessalonians. 1:3; Colossians 2:19

BB Warfield on entire sanctification.

John Owen on Entire Sacnctification HERE.

More on Sanctification at Monergism.org HERE!

Pretty one sided if you ask me... All those authors believed in 'Indwelling sin' and never believed that they could get free from sin.

They believed the nature of man and his flesh is sin... and that is just not biblical.

Entire Sanctity is a privilege and the responsibility of every believer HERE on this earth...

Entire Sanctity is a privilege and the responsibility of every believer HERE on this earth...

How many here on SermonIndex have attained this state of Christian perfection?
If you have, when is the last time you sinned?

JaySaved wrote:

Entire Sanctity is a privilege and the responsibility of every believer HERE on this earth...

How many here on SermonIndex have attained this state of Christian perfection?
If you have, when is the last time you sinned?

Are you asking this in sincerity or will you use this against the doctrine? Because whether or nat anybody on this site has achieved it or not does not matter nor does it deny or refute the doctrine of Christian Perfection.

I would answer your question the same way Wesley answered his critics about whether or not he knew if any people had attained such a state...

"Q. Can you show one such example now? Where is he that is thus perfect?

"A. To some that make this inquiry one might answer, If I knew one here, I would not tell you; for you do not inquire out of love. You are like Herod; you only seek the young child to slay it.

"But more directly we answer: There are many reasons why there should be few, if any, indisputable examples. What inconveniences would this bring on the person himself, set as a mark for all to shoot at! And how unprofitable would it be to gainsayers! 'For if they hear not Moses and the Prophets,' Christ and his Apostles, 'neither would they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.'

Pretty one sided if you ask me... All those authors believed in 'Indwelling sin' and never believed that they could get free from sin.

2 Corinthians 1:10
who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us,

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”

1 Peter 1:2
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Colossians 2:19
19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

I think that the negitive effect of this doctrine is the self-righteousness men twist it to be. It gets bad when preachers go out proclaiming thier own righteousness.

Even IF this was true- how much would it matter?

EVEN IF we have "truly righteous" acts now and then we must still continue in the faith until glorification.

_________________________________________
Do Christians Sin?

I agree that God doesn't take away our ability to obey as christians, yet we've all disobeyed regaurdless.

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

2 Corinthians 1:10
who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us,

Romans 6:5-14
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

The idea that sanctification is a liscence to sin is ridiculous...

1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1 John 1:6
If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

Point is if you live in sin you are lost. Now if falling in to sin means you are lost then we're all lost because I'm sure you've fallen into sin being saved. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that christians are sanctified after conversion. If you say you haven't sinned since conversion then consider God's standard.

Rejoice always
Do all to God's glory
Looking with lust (Mat 5)
Being angry in your heart (Mat 5)
Giving thanks in all things
Doing all from faith
No complaining
Perfection
Loving God with all you heart mind and strength
Puting God first

I know God gives us ability to do these things but I haven't found a single person who does not sin at all like Jesus. Point being there is no licsence to sin here: If someone takes it that way they have no desire to uphold righteousness and I believe are lost. A christian loves what is good. Also, if a professing christian is not living in righteousness you can be sure that he is lost.

1 John 2:3-4
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I agree that righteousness is not something we ourselves conjure up, but God does. Righteousness flows from a redeemed heart. Without fruit there is no salvation. I'm not saying that we have a "sin nature" but that we fight against our flesh. If there is a pattern of sin in our lives and we walk in darkness we're lost.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

1 Peter 2:11
Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul,

But if we live and walk in the flesh...

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" Do I seek to stop sinning or have I stopped sinning? To be born of God means that I have the supernatural power of God to stop sinning.

You have the power to stop but you still have your flesh. Its not either or its both. When you become a christian you seek to stop sinning and stop sinning (as a practice of sin). But you may still fall into sin. This doesn't mean that you are lost. That should not excite a christian because christians hate sin. We should desire to be totally pure.

Here is a quote from weslyan theology:

We believe that after we have experienced regeneration, it is possible to fall into sin, for in this life there is no such height or strength of holiness from which it is impossible to fall. But by the grace of God one who has fallen into sin may by true repentance and faith find forgiveness and restoration.

This is why we wait eagerly to be in heaven: God will be there and we won't sin anymore!!!

The writings on monergism.org are reformed- they are biblical.

Once again that is one sided...if you are a Calvinist they are biblical... ;-)

I think that the negitive effect of this doctrine is the self-righteousness men twist it to be. It gets bad when preachers go out proclaiming thier own righteousness.

Men who are truly holy do not get self-righteous. Some men might, but once againt that does not refute the argument.

Men that think they are justified or regenerate when they are not, do not refute or dismantle the argument that justification and regenretion are actual pure doctrines and very possible to attain and experience.

Also,

When a man repents and gets saved, his repentance consists in turning for self-righteousness, to trust Christ's righteousness not his own.

Christ Righteousness, imputed righteousness is the very reason our Sanctification is accepted. There is no need to toss away Christ's righteousness, it actually becomes the saints actual righteousness by impartation.

I am sure you know about imputed and imparted righteousness right?

So if Christ's imputed righteousness is perfect, why not also His imparted?

This automatically replies 'Entire Sanctity' of spirit, soul, and body, throughout the whole man.

I understand those who say that those who claim they're sanctified are self-righteous. I'm sure that Wesley and others would agree. There's nothing more odoriferous than a self-righteousness spirit. Self-righteousness is a cheap substitute for entire sanctification and makes it an achievement of the flesh. It does not draw the heart to Jesus.

Two of my dearest brethren, a husband and faith, who have entered into this were told by the Holy Spirit to make cookies and some other goodies for a young Buddhist man. This young man, whom my brother and sister have been witnessing to this young man for some time, broke down in tears and said I love you and your husband. There's a supernatural drawing of people's heart to the heart of Jesus. I've read countless examples of similar type experiences but wanted to recount a more contemporary one.

I believe that sanctification is by faith, not by works as did Wesley and others. It's not something that can simply be intellectualized, it has to be walked out.

In Wesley's sermon 89 entitled "The More Excellent Way" he said this:

From long experience and observation I am inclined to think, that whoever finds redemption in the blood of Jesus, whoever is justified, has then the choice of walking in the higher or the lower path. I believe the Holy Spirit at that time sets before him "the more excellent way," and incites him to walk therein, to choose the narrowest path in the narrow way, to aspire after the heights and depths of holiness, -- after the entire image of God. But if he does not accept this offer, he insensibly declines into the lower order of Christians. He still goes on in what may be called a good way, serving God in his degree, and finds mercy in the close of life, through the blood of the covenant. I would be far from quenching the smoking flax, -- from discouraging those that serve God in a low degree. But I could not wish them to stop here: I would encourage them to come up higher, without thundering hell and damnation in their ears, without condemning the way wherein they were, telling them it is the way that leads to destruction, I will endeavour to point out to them what is in every respect "a more excellent way."

There are many other than the Wesleys, who have taught and believed in "entire sanctification" although they may not have used the exact same terminology. Here's a few brothers and sisters that come to mind that I've read over the last year that believed and walked this out: John and Charles Wesley, John Fletcher, Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry, Smith Wigglesworth, William and Catherine Booth, William Seymour, Duncan Campbell, Rees Howell, G.C. Bevington, Phoebe Palmer, and many others.

What ensued in these lives as I've looked at them closely is that as they entered into this experience great revivals ensued. I'm presently reading an autobiography by J.A. Wood, the delightful author of "Perfect Love."

I believe that sanctification is by faith, not by works as did Wesley and others. It's not something that can simply be intellectualized, it has to be walked out.

Wesley never believed that Sanctification was by works, you have misread him sir.

I would recommend you to read 'Plain Account of Christian Perfection' and 'Checks Against Antinomianism; by John Fletcher. Both reaffirm the idea that Sanctification is faith alone.

But nevertheless you are right about it needed to walked out. Holiness must be preached by a holy life.

Amen, death to self.
God Bless
Nell

(EDIT: I cleaned up the formatting a bit.)

Wesley never believed that Sanctification was by works, you have misread him sir.

I have read "Christian Perfection" and many of Wesley's works and believe he was absolutely correct. I have posted many thoughts on this blessed experience and obviously believe it to be true, but it has to be walked out.

Someone asked what would impact would this have on the life on the believer and I take this from J.A. Wood's autiobiography. His book in my view is one of the best on "Entire Sanctification" and was endorsed by William and Catherine Booth and many others.

THE RESULTS OF THIS CLEANSING BAPTISM
By J.A. Wood

1. A sacred nearness to God, my Saviour. The distance between God and my soul has appeared annihilated, and the glory and presence of divinity have often appeared like a flood of sunlight, surrounding and pervading my whole being.

2. A sense of inexpressible sweetness in Christ. The fact that he is "the rose of Sharon," "the lily of the valley," "the brightness of his (the Father's) glory," has at times filled my soul with ecstatic rapture.

3. A deep, realizing sense of spiritual things. Bible truth has appeared transformed into solid realities. The doctrines of the gospel become to me tangible facts.

4. A surprising richness and fullness of meaning in the Scriptures, which I had not before realized. Many portions of the Bible, which I had hitherto but little understood, now appeared full of meaning, and exceedingly precious.

5. A triumph over temptation more complete and habitual. After that baptism I found no elements in my heart siding with the tempter. Before, I was conscious of inward affinities which sided with the tempter.

6. A great increase in spiritual power. This I realized in my closet devotions, in my pastoral duties, and especially in the pulpit, in presenting the blessed truth of God. I learned by experience that man may receive the Holy Spirit in measure limited only by his capacity to receive, and feeble ability to endure Him.

7. A clear and distinct witness of purity through the blood of Christ. The testimony of the
Holy Spirit, and of my spirit, to the entire sanctification of my soul, became more clear and convincing than any I ever had of my regeneration; although I had no doubt of that years before.

8. A disposition to tell the blessed story of Christ and his "great salvation." I longed for a
thousand tongues to publish the glad tidings to perishing men.

Oh ok...

God bless you!

God bless you!

Once again that is one sided...if you are a Calvinist they are biblical...

Does that mean that the belief of entire sanctification is only for arminians?

Hello Kristy,

No, I certainly don't think so. I'm sure there are Calvinists who believe in something akin to entire sanctification. I have a book by one such man, named A.B. Simpson and his book is online here [url=http://www.gospeljohn.com/simpson_whollysanctified1.htm]Wholly Sanctified[/url]. Note: (Brother Jesse may be correct but there was something in the book that lead me to think he was Calvinistic in his thinking.)

As to a good definition of entire sanctification I go back to Reverend J.A. Wood's excellent explanation in "Perfect Love" and he used the phrase "full sanctification."

What terms are commonly used to express full salvation?

The scripture terms are, "perfect love," "perfection," "sanctification," and "holiness." These terms are synonymous, all pointing to the same precious state of grace. While they denote the same religious state, each one of them indicates some essential characteristic, and hence these terms are significantly expressive of full salvation. The word "sanctification" has the double meaning of consecration and purification, -- the Old Testament sense of setting apart to a sacred service: "sanctify yourselves and be ye holy;" and the New Testament sense of spiritual purification: "sanctify them through thy truth."

The word "sanctify," and its derivatives, occur in the Scriptures, with reference to men and things, over one hundred times. The term "perfection" signifies completeness of Christian character; its freedom from all sin, and possession of all the graces of the Spirit, complete in kind. "Let us go on unto perfection." The word "perfection" and its relatives, occur one hundred and one times in the Scriptures. In over fifty of these instances it is predicated of human character under the operation of grace. The term "holiness" is more generic and comprehensive than the others, including salvation from sin, and the possession of the image and spirit of God. To be holy is to be whole, entire, or perfect in a moral sense, and in ordinary use is synonymous with purity and godliness. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness without which no man shall see the Lord." The word "holy" and its derivatives, occur not less than one hundred and twenty times in their application to men and things. The word "justify" and its derivatives, occur seventy four times in regard to men; and the word "pardon" with its derivatives, in their application to penitent sinners, occur only seventeen times.

The phrase "perfect love" is expressive of the spirit and temper, or moral atmosphere in which the wholly sanctified and perfect Christian lives. "He that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him;" and, "Herein is our love made perfect."

These terms are used indiscriminately in this book. They are scriptural and significant, and Christians should not ignore them. No one of them should be employed to the exclusion of the others; nor should other terms be chosen to their exclusion. The substitution of "higher life," "the rest of faith," "rest in God," "the fullness of God," "the full assurance," &c., in the place of the highly significant Bible terms, is of doubtful propriety. It is unwise to be wise above the word of God. These uninspired names come of the various predilections of the different Christian denominations. Although names may be of minor importance, and little harm may come from their use, yet it is wise and safe to adhere to Scripture terms, such as the Holy Spirit has given to express His own work in the soul. The Saviour says: "Whosoever shall be ashamed of me, and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory."

Does that mean that the belief of entire sanctification is only for arminians?

No, it is just that most 5 pointers attack it and deny it because of their view on "Indwelling Sin" or that they believe that sin is actaully the human body.

I would agree with brother Lazarus who said that it is a biblical postion that is all. Anyone that wants to beleive it is ok with me.

they believe that sin is actaully the human body.

Thats kind of strange. Well, I do believe that we struggle against our flesh. Would that be considered the same?

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Romans 13:14
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Galatians 5:16
[ Walking in the Spirit ] I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

GraceAlone wrote:

they believe that sin is actaully the human body.

Thats kind of strange. Well, I do believe that we struggle against our flesh. Would that be considered the same?

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Romans 13:14
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Galatians 5:16
[ Walking in the Spirit ] I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

We struggle witht he flesh but that does not implt that we sin. Every believer deals with temptation, but...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

I see what you're saying now. I'm glad I got to understand this view a bit better!

God Bless!

Who is the One that is perfect sanctification? Jesus Christ, correct?

Who is our life now? Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Who has been made our sanctification? Not something we can attain, but made for us and in us.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

What happens if we sin? We know it by the HOLY SPIRIT, who convicts of sin. What do we do? 1 John 1:7-10 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The Christ in us cannot sin. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His Seed remaineth in him: and He cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is the Seed that God see's in the believer, Jesus Christ and that is why God is faithful and Just to forgive us.

So how do we sin? James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Entire Sanctification, absolutely, because it is not me that is sanctified, but the Sanctified One in me, Jesus Christ birthed in the believer.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This is wisdom unto righteousness by being sanctified and redeemed by the Christ that is in you the Hope of Glory.

Paul does not use the born again statement but he does use the word mystery for a new birthing and six other mysteries we don't understand.

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Then let us go on into the higher calling of God.
Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

In Christ, sanctified completely by the sanctified One Himself that is birthed in us.

Phillip

Paul teaches...

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

I do not differentiate much between being saved and being 'set apart." We are not "saved" or "sanctified" by faith alone.

What do you believe Paul is refering to when he says that grace is a gift of God, and that this gift is "not of yourselves?"

What is he pointing out to us about our carnal man?

In Christ
Jeff

Questions: sanctified from Sin or sins? Entire sanctification? >> Can it be practically expressed without flaw in daily experience? And what about our thoughts? The human brain thinks 1100 seperate thoughts per minute, in light of that who is sufficient to such a walk? And what about faith????What's so evers not of faith is sin, so now we'er in the area of conscience which is where faith is birthed and gives expression and its prime motivator is love, a love that's not even human by nature, agape, perfect love. And if Elijah was such a man as we are (forget Fox, Wesley, and the longggg list of purtains-- I don't even place them anywhere close to Elijah) yet He prayed... maybe there's hope for us???? I have an entire library on Sinless perfection, I don't buy into it though. There is some good stuff though.

It'll only take the most godly man/woman in the world a split second in the manifest presence of Christ to realize they are undone. And yet thoughs who abide IN Christ are as Holy as they will ever be, as they grow in grace they will become more seperated though> 2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

All in all most of these issues just seem to be to far above me, I've heard both sides of most arguements and just can't seem to keep up with them, I guess I'll just have to work my own salvation with fear and trembling of God. :-o

Paul teaches in another place....

10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Phil. 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

If Paul taught that he himself was not perfected who else has attained perfection in this life other than Christ?

In Christ
Jeff

The writer of Hebrews teaches...

Heb. 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

When does this occur according to Scripture?

In Christ
Jeff

rookie wrote:
Paul teaches in another place....

10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Phil. 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

If Paul taught that he himself was not perfected who else has attained perfection in this life other than Christ?

In Christ
Jeff

To that I answer...

Phi 3:15 [b][u]Let us therefore[/u][/b], as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

1Co 2:6 [b][u]Howbeit we[/u][/b] speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought

He had to have been perfect for both revelations that he was writing about in these epistles.

There are plenty of other scriptures as well which I have already quoted....

Paul did not reach Entire Sanctity? Moral Perfection? You have to read your New testament over again

Here are the scriptures…

(1.) 1Th_2:10 : "Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily, and justly, and unblameably, we behaved ourselves among you that believe."

(2.) 2Co_6:3-7 : "Giving no offence in anything, that the ministry be not blamed; but in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessity, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; by pureness, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left."

(3.) 2Co_1:12 : "For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to youward."

(4.) Act_24:16 : "And herein do I exercise myself to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men."

(5.) 2Ti_1:3 : "I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with a pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day."

(6.) Gal_2:20 : "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

-Paul no longer lived, Christ did, and I don't think Christ led to sin in Paul

(7.) Gal_6:14 : "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."

(8.) Phi_1:21 : "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

(9.) Act_20:26 : "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men."

(10.) 1Co_4:16-17 : "Wherefore, I beseech you, be ye followers of me. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church."

(11.) 1Co_11:1 : "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

He better have been without sin, otherwise the image of Christ would have been blurred

(12.) Phi_3:17, Phi_3:20 : "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. For our conversation is in heaven, from whence we also look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ."

(13.) Phi_4:9 : "Those things, which ye have both learned and received, and heard, and seen in me, do; and the God of peace shall be with you."

If Paul was not sinless, he was an extravagant boaster, and such language used by any minister in these days would be considered as the language of an extravagant boaster.

This setting himself up as an example so frequently and fully, without any caution or qualification, was highly dangerous to the interests of the church, if he was not in a state of entire sanctification.

There is no reason for doubting his having attained this state of entire sanctification

Also about Phil. 3

A great author once said...

Phil.3:10-15. "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect; but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended; but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." Upon this passage I remark:--
(i.) Here is a plain allusion to the Olympic games, in which men ran for a prize, and were not crowned until the end of the race, however well they might run.
(ii.) Paul speaks of two kinds of perfection here, one of which he claims to have attained, and the other he had not. The perfection which he had not attained, was that which he did not expect to attain until the end of his race, nor indeed until he had attained the resurrection from the dead. Until then he was not, and did not expect to be perfect, in the sense that he should "apprehend all that for which he was apprehended of Christ Jesus."

But all this does not imply that he was not living without sin, any more than it implies that Christ was living in sin when he said, "I must walk to-day and to-morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected."(Luke 13:32) Here Christ speaks of a perfection which he had not attained.

Now it is manifest, that it was the glorified state to which Paul had not attained, and which perfection he was pressing after. But in the fifteenth verse, he speaks of another kind of perfection, which he professed to have attained. "Let us therefore," he says, "as many as be perfect, be thus minded;" that is, let us be pressing after this high state of perfection in glory, "if by any means we may attain unto the resurrection of the dead." The figure of the games should be kept continually in mind, in the interpretation of this passage. The prize in those races was the crown. This was given only at the end of the race. And besides, a man was "not crowned except he ran lawfully," that is, according to rule. Paul was running for the prize, that is, the crown, not, as some suppose, for entire sanctification, but for a crown of glory. This he did not expect until he had completed his race. He exhorts those who were perfect, that is, those who were running lawfully or according to rule, to forget the things that were behind, and press to the mark, that is, the goal, for the prize, or the crown of glory, which the Lord, the righteous judge, who was witnessing his race to award the crown to the victor, would give him at that day.

Now it is manifest to my mind, that Paul does not in this passage, teach expressly nor impliedly, that he was living in sin, but the direct opposite--that he meant to say, as he had said in many other places, that he was unblameable in respect to sin, but that he was aspiring after higher attainments, and meant to be satisfied with nothing short of eternal glory.

Also on Phil. 3

KJV is the only one that keeps the word perfect there, all other translations take out for their convenience and to quiet their conscience...

But here is the words for perfect in that portion of scripture...

Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

G5048
τελειόω
teleioō
tel-i-o'-o
From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

This can only be speaking of glorification...

Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Pretty eye opening huh?

I would hope that everyone is aware of the heresy of Pelagianism. If not, here is a brief description:

Pelagianism derives its name from Pelagius who lived in the 5th century A.D. and was a teacher in Rome, though he was British by birth. It is a heresy dealing with the nature of man. Pelagius, whose family name was Morgan, taught that people had the ability to fulfill the commands of God by exercising the freedom of human will apart from the grace of God. In other words, a person's free will is totally capable of choosing God and/or to do good or bad without the aid of Divine intervention. Pelagianism teaches that man's nature is basically good. Thus it denies original sin, the doctrine that we have inherited a sinful nature from Adam. He said that Adam only hurt himself when he fell and all of his descendents were not affected by Adam's sin. Pelagius taught that a person is born with the same purity and moral abilities as Adam was when he was first made by God. He taught that people can choose God by the exercise of their free will and rational thought. God's grace, then, is merely an aid to help individuals come to Him.
Pelagianism fails to understand man's nature and weakness. We are by nature sinners (Eph. 2:3; Psalm 51:5). We all have sinned because sin entered the world through Adam: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12, NIV). Furthermore, Romans 3:10-12 says, “There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.” Therefore, we are unable to do God's will (Rom. 6:16; 7:14). We were affected by the fall of Adam, contrary to what Pelagius taught.

Pelagianism has been condemned as heretical by the Christian Church since the 5th century. The effect of the teaching leads to self righteousness which is probably the worst sin other than hypocrisy.

Thank you for sharing that information on Pelagainism. Wesley taught that "entire sanctification" was totally by faith and not by works. If anyone has ever tried to achieve victory over sin through the flesh, they quickly see the lie of Pelagianism. Apart from suppression which is not deliverance, I have never had any victory over sin but through that precious blood of Jesus I've had victory and that's His work.

Sanctification is clearly something where God is both the initiator and the one who completes the work. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 23May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24The one who calls you is faithful and [u]he will do it[/u].

It's interesting to note that the word hagios is never referenced in the New Testament as a future (i.e. after death) experience. That little snippet came from a dear brother, Malcolm Lavendar, a Pastor, Greek scholar and the author of "The Fallacy of the Sinning Christian." God wants to change our hearts on this side of heaven and is faithful to do what he promised.

John Wesley, in 1771, wrote: "Many years since, I saw that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. I began by following after it. Ten years after God gave me a clearer view than I had before how to obtain it; namely, by faith in the Son of God; and immediately I declared to all: We are saved from Sin, WE ARE MADE HOLY BY FAITH. This I testified in private, in public, in print, and God confirmed it by a thousand witnesses."

Here's a quote from A.M. Hills, the great theologian from his book "The Uttermost Salvation."

What is the nature of sanctifying faith?

1. -- It is a clear intellectual apprehension of a great truth. There is indeed a great truth as the basis of all rational faith on any subject; for rational faith is not credulity. On this particular subject there must be an apprehension of the fall of man and the consequent depravity of the race, from which every son and daughter of Adam needs to be cleansed. Evolutionists flatly deny all this; but the whole Bible states or assumes this fact, and bases the whole plan of salvation upon it. This truth must be known and accepted.

2. -- It must be accepted as true that Christ's baptism with the Holy Spirit is the remedy for us by the atonement. This is why we are told that "the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). "Wherefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered without the gate" (Heb. 13:12 and 10:10, and .Eph. 5:25).

But we are as plainly told that the work is accomplished by the baptism with the Holy Ghost and fire (Matt. 3:11; Mal. 3:3). "Giving them the Holy Ghost . . . cleansing their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8, 9).

3. -- It is a heart-faith. Not only the intellect but the whole moral nature is involved in it, intellect, sensibility and will. Moody said: "Saving faith involves assent, consent, and laying hold." Dr. Whedon says: "Saving faith is that belief of the intellect, consent of the affections and act of the will by which the soul places itself in the keeping of Christ as its Ruler and Savior."

4. -- Saving faith involves a ceasing from labor. Our own efforts end. In rescuing a drowning man, an experienced swimmer waits till the man ceases to struggle. Faith is a self-committal of the whole matter of salvation to God, a sinking of self down into Him and resting there.

When Blondin, the famous tight-rope gymnast, proposed to wheel a man in a wheelbarrow across Niagara Falls, he asked Blondin what he should do. "Do?" said Blondin, "do nothing but lie in the barrow like a dead man. I will take you over." And Blondin did it. So when a soul seeks sanctification, it complies with all the preliminary conditions which precede faith. Then faith CONFIDENTLY TRUSTS, WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE OF FEELING, THAT GOD KEEPS HIS PROMISE AND SANCTIFIES. God never fails such a believing heart. He does it.

Brother Giancarlo wrote:

G5046
???????
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Pretty eye opening huh?

I see these uses of the word "perfect" by Paul to connote the mature believer. A believer that is of full age. You see Scripture teaches that when one is born again one is not of full age but is a babe. Paul is always exhorting his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to grow in maturity. This aspect of Paul's teaching can also be cross verified with the teachings of John.

1 John 2

12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake. 13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Have you ever considered this precept found in Scripture?

In Christ
Jeff

Just a general comment...

I have noticed that many seek to base their beliefs on the testimonies of men like Wesley and all the others mentioned in this thread. These are men who have had a personal relationship with our Lord. Yet their experience, is not our experience.

But after all the words and thoughts of men, there still remains the only means by which we ourselves may know the truth. What does Scripture say? The Holy Spirit spoke through Paul to instruct us so that we too may begin to recognize how God "sets us apart."

8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Does Paul claim that he is perfect when he says things like this..."and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness,.."

What is he concerned with here?

Should we too be concerned with what Paul is concerned with?

In Christ
Jeff

Quote:

""But all this does not imply that he was not living without sin, any more than it implies that Christ was living in sin when he said, "I must walk to-day and to-morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected."(Luke 13:32) Here Christ speaks of a perfection which he had not attained.""

The only perfection Christ did not attain at this point was the end of the Cross, "it is finished", The Perfect finishing the Perfect Plan of God, Salvation, to attaining completion in perfect, not to attain perfection Himself, He already was Perfect by the Perfect Seed of the Father.

Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

What has the upper hand over the flesh? It is the mind. Paul recognizes the it is his flesh that is caught up in the law of sin. Since we now have the Mind of Christ; 1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
What good is it if we have the mind of Christ and don't do anything about it? Our flesh stays in the babe stage and we in the flesh do commit sin. As we give in the sanctification process more understanding to the Christ that is in us, we begin to become in our mind what Paul speaks of when he says 146 times we are in Christ. Then we are becoming son's and father's in the Lord, not children, as Rookie has stated: 1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Not only this but when one suffers in the flesh and dies, he has ceased from sin.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

The same goes for us, if we are dead we are loosed from the sin by the Law of God.

By death we no longer are servants of sin, being crucified with Christ, we must see ourselves on the Cross with and in Christ. When The Perfect Head of Jesus Christ fell on dead shoulders, His work was completed, "it is finished" and His perfection and performance was complete, and we are complete in Him, by our death with Him.

It is not that Jesus was not perfect in the Father's sight from birth, because The Father new what Seed was in Jesus. "Seed" The Sperma of God in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit brought forth The only begotten Son of God. God His Father was not depending on Christ Jesus alone but His own Seed that was in Jesus Christ, knowing it would not fail, and to prove it, Jesus learned obedience by the thing He suffered. He was tested all the way to the Cross and never failed. Like a winning proven horse, his offspring are dependant upon the seed of winning stallion and blood line. We are now the son's of God and we are depending on the Seed of the Father birthed in us by Jesus Christ who is now our new life, in who's Seed we must depend on.

Paul separated the flesh, soul, and spirit. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Soul being the mind, will and emotions and the Spirit being the Spirit of Christ birthed in us and being Born Again unto a new creation race of people, that the people (son's) of God with the Mind of Christ and the renewing of our mind by the Spirit of Christ through the Holy Spirit our Teacher.

Spirit rules the Mind and the Mind rules the Flesh. We being Christians, Christ-ones, son's by The Spirit of Christ which is not our spirit, ruling the Mind by the renewing by the Holy Spirit, over flesh. Sanctification complete in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. (((( :30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:))))) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Perfect in a Perfect Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Not only this but when one suffers in the flesh and dies, he has ceased from sin.

What might we understand then about dieing? How does this precept relate to growth in sanctification?

Paul writes:

Philippians 3:

10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

1 Corinthians 9

25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Paul calls on the Galatians...

Gal. 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

I believe Scripture points to a continuous process of "dieing." This then might be labeled...the gift of repentance.

Just some thoughts...

God Bless
Jeff

I have noticed that many seek to base their beliefs on the testimonies of men like Wesley and all the others mentioned in this thread. These are men who have had a personal relationship with our Lord. Yet their experience, is not our experience.

The awesome thing I've discovered as I've searched the scriptures and read many of the accounts over the last 200 years is for those who will enter into this experience, revival has always ensued. It was true with Wesley, Finney, Seymour, and most recently Duncan Campbell and is clearly shown in the scriptures as well.

I would encourage you Jeff and any others who believe this is not a real experience to take this to the Lord in your prayer closet and ask the Holy Spirit to begin to show you. I'm not saying this out a contentious spirit but with a hope that you will seek this for yourself and not rely on any of the saints of old or anything anyone else has said on this topic.

Brother Seymour fervently preached entire sanctification before he had entered into the experience and if I remember correctly he was last in his little congregation to enter into the experience. As they entered into this experience, a great revival ensued. There's a couple of more contemporaneous books (in the 20th century at least) on men that had entered into this: "Remarkable Miracles" by G.C. Bevington and "Rees Howells: Intercessor" by Norman Grubb.

The doctrine itself is not particularly complex and is laid out well scripturally in "Christian Perfection" by John Wesley and "Perfect Love" by J.A. Wood. Both of these men walked in the experience for nearly 50 years and one can readily discern the fruit from their lives. These works contain a very solid scriptural basis but that's something you will need to decide for yourself.

The struggle I see in this thread and in my heart has been an attempt to solely intellectualize the doctrine of entire sanctification without any corresponding move to meet God's conditions. I've spend nearly a year studying the scriptures and seeking God's face about this issue and wholeheartedly believe in what many of the saints have taught.

Here's a quote from a sermon by Catherine Booth entitled "Holiness."

This is no new doctrine, I may just remark. Some people not familiar with the history of the Church seem to regard it as a doctrine lately invented. It is as old as Enoch, and from his day down to the present, God has taken care to keep alive in His church, even in the days of Papal darkness, the most thorough-going professors and exemplifies of this doctrine. Those who believed in this blessing and exemplified it in their lives in the dark ages, people went thousands of miles to converse with, and to get the inner light which God had given to them, and numbers of such enquirers were brought into this blessed experience. It has been called “The second conversion,” “The higher life,” “The full assurance of faith”, “Christian Perfection”- to distinguish it from Adamic and angelic – “Perfect Love”, “Inner Sanctification”, “The rest of faith.” We do not contend for names. The main point is this, that the experience designated by most of these terms amounts practically to the same thing, which is BEING SAVED FROM SIN. [ie, saved from the power of sinning, in this life, in addition to salvation from the penalty of sin in the next life].

We care not what you call it so that you understand the blessing to mean that. I prefer to use God’s terms in everything, and so I select His designations. I think that the Holy Ghost understood best the ideas He wished to convey, and therefore I like the terms He has used, such as sanctification, holiness, perfect love. However, we simply take what we like best and do not contend about them.

Blessings to you all in the precious name of Jesus.

1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Many are waiting for the second coming of Christ as the fulfillment of these scriptures. We are to reckon ourselves already dead to the law and sin, and alive unto Christ not at His second coming but now. For He is already in the son's of God, as He promised He would not leave us without comfort and would give life to those that believe.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is what reckon in the Greek means; 3049. logizomai
Search for G3049 in KJVSL
logizomai logizomai log-id'-zom-ahee

middle voice from 3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively):--conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

"It is no longer we who live", but Christ who live in us. "The life we now live, we live by the faith Christ". Our Life is already hid with Christ in God. We die daily in our mind, and when this flesh is planted in the ground it will resurrect just like our Spirit is already resurrected and our mind is being resurrected daily to the Mind of Christ, If we die daily, we are already resurrected daily in Christ Jesus. "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me". He has already come, in the Spirit of Godliness in the son's of God.

Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus Christ is the Comfort, The Holy Spirit is our Comforter. We are life already in Christ Jesus seated in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Not only this but the Father also. How is a Father a Father? By the Seed, the Sperma of God.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Abode with, is much more than just being along side of or with as we think of being with a brother or sister. It is being part of and in the Love of a Father. We are His offspring and He is our progenitor of Life in Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother wrote:

"I quoted many of the great saints of old but the need for sanctification is very clear in the scriptures."

Brother I have no doubt about your heart or that Scripture calls us to be holy. This is the result of obeying the commands of Jesus. My point in this thread and all others is that we will always fall short of knowing Jesus as long as we allow ourselves to be consumed with the lives of other saints. None of us know or see Jesus as He is in this life. But one glorious day we will. According to Scripture, one man sows another can only water, but it is God who gives the increase.

Paul never gets into details about his own life with the Lord, in terms of describing the nature of the ectacasy he himself experienced by the quickening by the Spirit. He always prays that his fellow believers would themselves know the grace in the same way he himself experienced.

Wesley is a perfect example. He walked with God. The Methodist church that I know does not walk as he walked. Men have sought to duplicate Wesley's actions in order to appropriate or call down God according to the flesh.

Paul taught others to look to Jesus, for He is the only One who sanctifies. This is always my endeavor, sometimes I fail to communicate this. Scripture is sufficient in that the words are of the Holy Spirit and that is all we truly need. This is the promise of the New Covenant is it not?

God Bless
Jeff

Just a thought on this thread...

What are the contents of holiness. What do the hopes of those who are maturing in Christ look like? What is contained within the heart and thus motivates one into action?

In Christ
Jeff

Praise our soon coming King!!!

Lets look at what some others say:

John

1jo 2:4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1jo 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
1jo 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Peter

1pe 1:15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
1pe 1:16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."

Paul

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Jude

Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

James

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Jesus

Mt 5:48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Jesus here is summing up the Beatitudes which i humbly submit is a definition or description of entire sanctification.

Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

The beatitudes are God's wonderful Law. I submit the sum of all we are in Christ Jesus is in ROM 5;

Romans 5:1-11 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Only Christ in us can makes us entirely sanctified, for He has been made our sanctification. This is our new nature by birth, not by works.

In Christ: Phillip

Praise Jesus!!

And this is what we should become and do:

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Hisservant rich

Wesley is pretty unique in this doctrine. Personally I don't believe we can achieve glorification (or perfection) here on earth. Still it gives no liscense to living in sin (in case that's not clear).

Qadesh - Hebrew root for words of sanctification show that originally it could only have meant 100% e.g.

[color=0000ff]Gen. 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex. 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine. [/color]

What percentage of the day did God make his own? What percentage of the firstborn child was regarded as being God's "own"? The answers can only be 100% which must mean that to sanctify or set apart can only be 'entire'.

The process of ever increasing conformity to the image of Christ is better labelled as 'glorification'. The tenses used in the New Testament to describe true regeneration are very often Aorist which implies crisis rather than process.

e.g. [coor=0000ff]“knowing this, that our old man [u]was crucified with[/u] him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;” (Rom 6:6 ASV)

“who [u]delivered[/u] us out of the power of darkness, and [u]translated[/u] us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;” (Col 1:13 ASV)[/color]

The underlined words are all Aorist which is not the natural tense at all for process. However there are parts of the work of grace which are clearly process e.g. [color=0000ff]“and [u]being renewed[/u] in the spirit of your mind;” (Eph 4:23 DRBY)[/color]

Here the underlined verb is 'the infinitive of the present tense' as is 'passive'.

I'm posting a couple of pertinent articles from Daniel Steele, the eminent Methodist Episcopal Church.

Here's the first...

Growth in Grace

We are exhorted to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Some tell us that we find the true philosophy of Christian growth by reversing this order, and putting the knowledge of Christ first, as the means of increasing in grace. But the order of the apostle -- grace first and knowledge seconds -- is the most philosophical. We grow in the knowledge of Christ through the heart, and not through the head. We do not know Jesus till we love him, and the more we love the more intimate our knowledge of him. The more we familiarize ourselves with the perfect character of Jesus, the more we shall admire him, just as by studying the works of Angelo we come to admire him the more. But admiration is not love. It kindles no furnace-glow in the affections; it impels the soul onward through no losses and labors, self-denials and persecutions, to the martyr's stake. As the character of Christ folds its splendors beneath the long and earnest gaze of the student, he may be growing esthetically by familiarity with so many moral beauties, and he may become more perfectly grounded in his theological beliefs respecting the Divinity of the man of Nazareth, and yet he may, in his own heart, be refusing to receive and enthrone him as his rightful king.

We advance a step further, and say that growth in grace, while accompanied by increasing power to abstain from actual sin, has no power to annihilate the spirit of sin, commonly called original sin. The revelation of its indwelling is more and more perfect and appalling as we advance from conversion. Hence, in Calvinistic writings especially, we find that the measure of true piety is self-abhorrence. The more entire the consecration, the more vile in their own eyes do eminent saints appear. This standard of piety is a peculiarity of all the truly devout souls who were taught to believe that there is no power to deliver from inborn depravity this side of the grave. To these persons a piety which is not self-loathing and self-condemning is as contradictory as a piety which is not penitent. But the sinless Jesus exhibited the marvelous proof of an impenitent piety. May not they who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb stand forth, even on earth, as specimens of a piety which glorifies God without self-vilification? Does God get the highest revenue of glory from us while we perpetually proclaim that the blood of Christ fails to reach the root of evil in our natures? If not, then the self-loathing style of piety, like that of David Brainerd in his early ministry, who saw so much corruption in his heart that he wondered the people did not stone him out of the pulpit, is a mere initial and rudimentary form, reflecting not the highest honor upon its Author.

But the fact remains undisputed, that in all Christian experience, whether under Calvinian or Arminian doctrines, growth in grace reveals and magnifies that remaining inward corruption which it has no power entirely to remove. In the advanced yet not entirely sanctified believer, the spiritual perception is keener, the sensibility to sin more delicate, and hence more painful. It is the experience of the Christian world through all ages that the converted soul never outgrows this taint in its texture and substance. So strong is the belief of the Church on this point that many have asserted that the cure of the spirit of sin is impossible in this life. On the other hand we have the testimony of thousands, that by faith in the all-cleansing blood of Jesus Christ they were instantaneously, completely, and permanently delivered from all those inward proclivities toward sin which formerly gave them so much pain, so that they can endorse the testimony of the now translated Cookman two years before he "swept through the gates," -- "I, Alfred Cookman, am washed in the blood of the Lamb." Here are two classes of witnesses -- the whole body of imperfect believers, attesting the presence of inward corruption which they do not completely outgrow, and a goodly number in full trust in Christ, affirming with lip and life that they were instantaneously delivered from "the body of this death." Both classes witness to the same truth -- depraved inclination in the justified soul is not outgrown by spiritual development, but killed by the power of the Holy Ghost through a specific act of faith. But this spiritual development by growth is the necessary preparation for the destruction of inborn sin. The power of the Holy Spirit is exerted only through faith, and this faith is possible only when we are conscious of a need of cleansing from all inward tendencies to sin. This consciousness is awakened by the increasing cleanness of our spiritual perceptions under the illumination of the Holy Spirit. As Dr. Tyng says, "There is no calendar containing the length of time necessary for the conversion of the sinner," so there is no limit in time for this preparation for the work of entire sanctification. It may be an hour after regeneration, or the soul may be so slow in apprehending its privileges in Christ Jesus that years and decades may roll by before "faith grasps the blessings she desires."

We do not deny that incipient believers may, and do, in their gradual spiritual unfolding, mortify and diminish the remains of sin lingering in them after justification. What we affirm is, that the complete eradication of inbred sin after this period of decay is by the direct energy of the Sanctifier, whose interposition is specially invoked. This is his great office in the economy of salvation. His glory he will not give to another. "The Lord God is a jealous God." The Spirit of Truth will not let growth or development usurp his function and wear his honors. Hence the moment of entire sanctification is usually attended by an unmistakable demonstration of the power of the Holy Ghost, marking it as the most marvelous and memorable event in the soul's history this side of glory. We do not deny that there may be successive operations of the Holy Spirit, or baptisms culminating in the grand finale -- the extinction of sin and the fullness of God.

Says Rev. J. Fletcher:
Should you ask how many baptisms or effusions of the sanctifying Spirit are necessary to cleanse a believer from all sin, and to kindle his soul into perfect love, I reply, that the effect of a sanctifying truth depends upon the order of the faith with which that truth is embraced, and upon the power of the Spirit with which it is applied. I should betray a want of modesty if I brought the operations of the Holy Ghost and the energy of faith under a rule which is not expressly laid down in the Scriptures. If one powerful baptism of the Spirit 'seal you unto the day of redemption, and cleanse you from all [moral] filthiness,' so much the better. If two or more be necessary, the Lord can repeat them.

I may, however, venture to say, in general, that before we can rank among perfect Christians we must receive so much of the truth and Spirit of Christ by faith as to have the pure love of God and man shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost given unto us, and to be filled with the meek and lowly mind which was in Christ. And if one outpouring of the Spirit -- one bright manifestation of the sanctifying truth -- so empties us of self as to fill us with the mind of Christ and with pure love, we are undoubtedly Christians in the full sense of the word.

Says Mr. Wesley:
The generality of those who are justified feel in themselves more or less pride, anger, self-will, and a heart bent to backsliding. And till they have gradually mortified these, they are not fully renewed in love. God usually gives a considerable time for men to receive light, to grow in grace, to do and to suffer his will before they are either justified or sanctified. But he does not invariably adhere to this. Sometimes he 'cuts short the work.' He does the work of many years in a few weeks; perhaps in a week, a day, an hour. He justifies or sanctifies both those who have done or suffered nothing, and those who have not had time for a gradual growth either in light or grace. God may, with man's good leave, do the usual work of many years in a moment. He does so in a great many instances. And yet there is a gradual work before and after that moment. So that one may affirm that the work is gradual, another that it is instantaneous, without any manner of contradiction.
The entire sanctification of all persevering believers before death, without a conscious act of faith, is hinted at in the above quotation. The grounds of our faith in this particular are the Divine promises unto those who are in covenant relations with God. He stands pledged to the persevering believer to bestow upon him eternal life: "This promise involves all the qualifications requisite to admission to a holy heaven. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perfect (Greek) it until the day of Jesus Christ." Phil. 1:6.

And the second article from Daniel Steele...

PERVERTED PAULINE TEXTS QUOTED AGAINST HOLINESS.

St. Paul is the great logician of the New Testament. He has long and intricate arguments expressed in an involved style, frequently branching off from the main line of thought and returning to it again further on, making his meaning obscure. Hence, even St. Peter, a brother apostle, and, as the Romanists aver, infallible in all theological and ethical questions, asserts that there "are some things hard to be understood" in all our beloved brother Paul's epistles, which the "ignorant and unlearned," and he might have added, the designing, "wrest, as they do the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction." Thanking Peter for his frank confession that he had to sweat over Paul's epistles, and for freely according to them a rank with the Old Testament Scriptures, we proceed to an examination of texts quoted against Christian perfection, or inward and outward holiness in this life.

It is confidently asserted that St. Paul, in Phil. 3:12, disclaims the completeness of his spiritual life, and professes moral and spiritual imperfection. The R. V. represents him as saying, "Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect."

The verb "obtained" is here absolute; i.e., it has no object after it. What object must we supply? It is natural to supply it from something before uttered. The last preceding noun, "resurrection from the dead," makes good sense as the object of obtained. But why should St. Paul assert a fact so manifest as this, that he had not risen from the dead? Did any one assert that he had risen? Yes. Some were spiritualizing the resurrection, perverting St. Paul's own words in Eph. 2:6, and Col. 3:1, into an argument against the resurrection of the body, while others were boldly declaring, "that the resurrection is past already." -- 2 Tim. 2:18.

Under this state of the facts, it was not the declaration of a mere truism, for Paul to aver that his resurrection was future, not past.

Let us now see what he means when he denies that he is "already made perfect." The R. V. "made perfect," or perfected, is a more accurate translation of the original than the adjective "perfect" of the A. V. All the Greek lexicons and annotators insist that this verb "made perfect" here signifies "complete my course," just as the same verb is used by our Lord Jesus Christ in

Luke 13:32, "The third day I shall be perfected." Does Jesus here disclaim moral wholeness and spiritual completeness and perfection? Certainly not. Neither does St. Paul. Both speak of finishing their earthly course without the most distant hint of any spiritual imperfection in themselves. In fact, St. Paul in the fifteenth of this chapter classifies himself among the perfect in these words, "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded." This can mean nothing less than a state of moral completeness and undoubted loyalty to Christ. the love of God being so fully shed abroad in his heart as to exclude all that is antagonistic thereto. He means what St. John calls "the love of God perfected, casting out all fear that hath torment." The twelfth verse is beautifully harmonized with the fifteenth. In the twelfth St. Paul disclaims perfection as a victor, since he has not finished his race and touched the goal; in the fifteenth he claims perfection as a racer, "having laid aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset."

The prince of exegetes, Meyer, thinks that the prize which Paul had not grasped is expressed in 2 Tim. 4:8, "a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day." As this refers to the time of the second coming of Christ, which is followed by the resurrection in which the saints are raised with bodies like unto his glorious body, it follows that our exposition is essentially the same. There is an agreement that the object not yet attained is in verse 12, the reward of the righteous judge, not moral perfection, and that the perfection professed in verse 15 refers to moral completeness.

If any one of my readers still doubts the correctness of our exposition, I refer him to Dr. A. Clarke's Commentary for a full statement of the meaning of the Greek verb teleioo, in connection with the Olympic games, also to all the Greek lexicons, which, without any exception at all, define its secondary meaning "to finish one's course." Paul could well say when midway in his career, I have not yet received the prize; I am not glorified, for I have not finished my course; I have a conflict with the powers of darkness still to maintain, and the issue will prove whether I should be crowned. But a few years after this Paul sees that the end of the race is near. He is a prisoner in Rome, shut up in the Mamertine prison. Looking backwards he says, "I have finished my course." No more conflicts with Satan and his human allies await me; my hand touches the prize in the hand of the judge, -- the crown of righteousness. Up to this hour when the block and the headsman's axe are in full view, he knew that there was a possibility of failure, that he was in an enemy's land. Hence he was "temperate in all things."

This brings us to another misunderstood text --

1 Cor. 9:27, "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection." This is often quoted to prove that depravity, the root of sin, was still in Paul, and that in these words he disclaims holiness of heart. But mark the terms used. He speaking of the body. and not of the flesh as depravity. He speaks only of appetites, in themselves innocent, and not of sinful passions and tempers. Adam and Eve in Eden had natural appetites needing moral control and receiving it up to the sad hour when through unbelief sin came into our world. Were our first parents in the least unholy because they had appetites requiring repression? By no means. We argue that subjection of the body to the highest moral ends is a proof of holiness. Natural appetites in men are no more sinful than they are in horses. But they are the gateway through which sin enters when indulgence is granted against the moral law, written or unwritten. Paul set a strong guard at that gate. In so doing he declares his hatred of sin, and not his proneness to sin.

But did not Paul say "I die daily" in

1 Cor. 15:31? And does not this imply, if he was dying to sin daily, the continued existence of sin in him? Yes; if he thus died to sin. But there is no hint of sin in the text. The dying daily is a vivid statement of his peril of a martyr's death every day. See the context. If the dead rise not, and if Jesus Christ has not put the seal of truth upon his gospel by his resurrection, why do I stand in jeopardy every hour, daily running the risk of a violent death? In 2 Cor. 11:23, in a pithy and nervous style, Paul exclaims, "in deaths oft"; and Rom. 8:36, he applies to himself and his fellow Christians, Psa. 44:22, "For thy sake we are killed all the day long." St. Paul died unto sin once for all. Many die unto sin so imperfectly that they are alive and ready to get up out of the coffin every morning in season to die again that day; then they quote, "I die daily." a perfectly irrelevant proof-text, in justification of their playing fast and loose with sin.

St. Paul's death to sin had no resurrection unto sin. So should ours be. 1 Tim. 1:15 is our last perverted text in this chapter. Our readers may be surprised to learn that Paul the aged, in the fullness of his faith and love and professed holiness (1 Thess. 2:10), was, at the time he was writing this epistle, actually out-sinning all the sinners on the earth. This is the interpretation of some who search the Scriptures with the microscope to find proofs that sin must continue in the heart and crop out in the daily life of the best Christian so long as he is in the body. They emphasize the present tense "of whom I am chief." Let us read the context and see whether Paul is describing his past or his present character, "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious." Now, it is a rhetorical usage for a writer describing past events to change to the present in order to render his narrative more life-like and impressive. This is called the historical present tense, which people of common sense are in no danger of confounding with a real present, especially when the historian begins, as Paul does, by advertising the reader that he is narrating past events. The spirit of inspiration assumes that his readers will exercise the same good sense in reading the Bible as they do in reading other books.

St. Paul had been the chief, or a chief, of sinners. He was now the chief of saved sinners.

Gal. 5:17, "So that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Alas, how many unsanctified souls have made this astounding mistranslation the pillow upon which they have slept the sleep of death! There is no "cannot" in the original, nor in the R. V., which is word for word the version of John Wesley a century and a quarter before: "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, in order that ye may not do the things that ye would." The doctrine taught by Paul is that in the regenerate, but not in the entirely sanctified, there is a struggle going on, the purpose of which is this: When ye would do the works of the flesh the Spirit strives to prevent you; and when ye would follow the leading of the Spirit, the flesh opposes. This warfare ceases when "the flesh is crucified" (verse 24) and "the body of sin is destroyed." -- Rom. 6:6. Of this mistranslation Wesley says. "It makes Paul's whole argument nothing worth; yea, asserts just the reverse of what he is proving." The author was once giving a Bible Reading on the subject of practical holiness, when an official of his church arose and read this mistranslation, alleging the impossibility of living up to his moral ideal. With such a conception of God as a hard master he soon after became so demoralized as to wreck a national bank and flee to Canada, where he died. Apologies for sin, and extenuations of sin as unavoidable, are fraught with the utmost moral peril.

Quote; Ron

""Qadesh - Hebrew root for words of sanctification show that originally it could only have meant 100% e.g.

Gen. 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex. 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.

What percentage of the day did God make his own? What percentage of the firstborn child was regarded as being God's "own"? The answers can only be 100% which must mean that to sanctify or set apart can only be 'entire'.""

If Christ has been made our sanctification by salvation through believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then sanctification is complete and our minds must be renewed to this fact. We are new creatures in Christ Jesus and just as a baby at birth, his sanctification is complete. Now he must learn everything that he is sanctified for, a human being. With the rebirth we must do the same we are sanctified completely in Christ and are a new creation race of people of God in Christ Jesus, Christians, Christ-ones, son's of God by birth, now we must learn everything that is our being who we are. That will take eternity for we will always be learning God.

Now we have the Mind of Christ, the Holy Spirit is the one Teacher that can renew our mind forever, to that existence of The Mind of God that has been birthed in us. Sanctified, being Sanctified and will be Sanctified. Spirit, Soul and Body. In the Plan of God by His Mind, All Sanctification is accomplished. AS we are told in Scripture, God's whole plan from creation to now has only been approx 2 weeks as know from what God has said, "Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

soul, spirit, body
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Done, being done and will be done.
2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us]; (Forever)

In Christ, Delivered, doth Deliver, and will Deliver.
Spirit, Soul, Body: Phillip

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The life of Abraham is given to us as an example of one who lived by faith. We see a progression. We are given stories of obedience and unbelief. But over time we come to the climax of Abraham's life when God calls on him to offer Isaac as a sacrifice.

We may often think of sin as lying, drunkeness, adultery, fornication, pride...yet there is much more substance to the idea of sanctification that goes far beyond the sins of the flesh. With sanctification there also comes the witness of how to love God with our whole heart, strength, and mind.

What was the reason for God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac?

What purpose did this work accomplish?

Jeff

I was about to log on and the instant article generator gave me this article by A.M. Hills. This is the second time this article has popped up.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit is trying to say something...

I've highlighted some of the recurring questions from this thread and others have raised and are answered in this clear explanation of scripture.

What Paul Said About Holiness 1

[i]Paul wrote the Thessalonians as Christians, unquestionably declaring them to be such in the first chapter; and in the third chapter he as certainly prays that they may have a second work of grace in their hearts, "to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness" (I Thess. 3-13).[/i]

Three verses further on (I Thess. 4:3) he writes: [b]"For this is the will of God even your sanctification." Here is a distinct declaration, not that one may possibly get such an experience, but that God has provided for this experience, and that it is His will, that is to say, His command that each of His children should be sanctified. God's revealed will is nothing less than a command.[/b]

I wonder any of my readers pray the Lord's Prayer. How does it read? "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." How is it done in heaven by angels? Perfectly. By whom do you pray it may be done on earth? By yourself, if you pray honestly. You would not dare pray, "Lord, let Thy will be done by the other fellow, but not by me." That would be mocking God. [u]And so, Christian reader, you are confronted by this fact, that your sanctification is God's will; and Jesus taught you to pray, "Thy will be done." To be consistent, you should either stop praying the Lord's Prayer or begin to seek sanctification with all your heart. That is the way Paul felt about it.[/u]

Four verses further on (I Thess. 4:7) he writes: [i]"For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness." If we are called to be Christians at all, we are called to be sanctified Christians.[/i] God wants us to be at our very best. We cannot afford to be anything less. Through His atoning mercy, by His holy Word, and by the convictions and wooings of His Spirit, He calls us all to this blessing. And [b]God never called a child of His to anything that was not provided for in His grace.[/b] The Holy Spirit, by whom Paul says we are sanctified, stands ready to do His work. Jesus, our great High Priest who baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire, stands ready to do His part. God, the triune God, is ready. [u]The only question is, are we ready?[/u]

[b]In the next chapter Paul tells us, "Quench not the Spirit" (verse 19). Why not? Because He sanctifies us (Rom. 15:16; II Thess. 2:13; I Peter 1:2) He cannot accomplish this divine work unless we open our hearts to His influence.[/b] To resist and oppose the doctrine of a second work of grace, and fight sanctification, is to quench the Spirit who sanctifies.

This command is followed by a remarkable prayer, four verses later (23): [u]"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless." This is the second prayer in his brief epistle for holiness and sanctification.[/u] It is very remarkable for its clear teachings on this subject.

1. [b]"The God of peace" himself does the sanctifying. This rules out completely the idea of self-sanctification by your own pretty living and doing, by your own fasting and praying, and growing.[/b] Nobody ever gets the blessing by that route. It is not at the end of that line. [b]In the thirty years of my ministry I have never heard one Christian testify that he got sanctification by growth. God himself does the sanctifying if it is ever done.[/b]

2. [b]The verb sanctify is in the aorist tense, denoting singleness of action, an instantaneous completed work, as distinguished from a continuance or repetition. There is no getting sanctified by degrees, by a long process of indefinite length and uncertain continuousness. The work is to be done in a flash of time by the baptism with the Holy Ghost.[/b]

3. The God of peace himself is thus to sanctify us wholly, "through and through." This rules out all limitation of the work to any department of our being, or any single faculty. Some tell us, and would have us believe, that all God's commands end in the will; and that when that is correct in it choice or purpose or decision, all duty is met, and God asks no more. This text utterly refutes that idea. [b]God wants the whole being -- intellect, sensibility, and will; body and spirit -- to be cleansed and made fit to be His temple.[/b]

4. The prayer continues: And may "your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless." The body (Greek, soma) means our physical organization with all its natural appetites and passions and necessary functions. The soul means the animating principle of the body connected with the senses. The spirit is the higher soul to which the influences of the other world address themselves. It is by this faculty that we know God, and feel His power and presence, and recognize our duty to love and obey Him. This is all to be sanctified, and then preserved so. This is all there is of a man -- body, soul, and spirit. There is nothing else about him but his clothes. And the dress question will easily be settled when the whole being is freed from depravity and the heart is right with God. [b]What a blessedly complete work God proposes to do for us! Take all the disordered elements out of us -- all the abnormal appetites, all base propensities, all proclivities downward that would draw us away from God and sink us in hell -- and then preserve us in that blessed state of purity and Christlikeness until God calls us to himself! This is what Paul prayed for, and it is enough to make us all shout, "Amen!" and go in for the blessing. It ought to make everybody hunger and thirst for this great salvation, and cause everyone who has it to be filled with an unutterable joy.[/b]

This prayer is immediately followed in the next verse by a gracious promise: "Faithful is he that called you, who also will do it." Calleth you to what? Oh, he has just told them that God calls them to sanctification (4:7). And now, right after this prayer for sanctification, he says, "He who calls you will do it." Do what? Why, sanctify you. Nothing else can be made of this blessed and encouraging passage of scripture. The steps, which are six, are as follows:

1. [i]The will of God is that we be sanctified (4:3).[/i]

2. [u]God calls to the blessing (4:7).[/u]

3. The command. "Quench not the Spirit," whereby ye are sanctified (5:19).

4. The prayer. "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly" (5:23).

5. And may your "spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless" (5:23).

6. Faithful is He who calls you to be sanctified, who also will do it.

[b]A brother once said, "It took two to sanctify me." "Who were they?" "God and I." "What did God do?" "He sanctified me." "What did you do?" "I let Him do it." This is testimony true to life. Anybody can get sanctified who will yield himself to God for the blessing, and seek it with all his heart.[/b]

There is one other passage in the epistle, weighted with awful solemnity, which I have purposely reserved to the last. [u]After saying, in I Thessalonians 4:7, that God calls us to sanctification, he adds: "He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit." We are sanctified by the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Jesus administers this blessing, and it is God's will that we should have it. Therefore he that despiseth this blessing, and opposes it, and refuses to have it or to seek it, despiseth not St. Paul, or John Wesley, or Brother Morrison, or Dr. Carradine, or any other teacher of holiness. He "despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit."[/u]

[b]The First Epistle to the Thessalonians unquestionably teaches a second work of grace, subsequent to regeneration, called sanctification. It is urged upon you in the most solemn way.[/b] Do not reject this truth. By so doing you despise God and quench the Spirit, who has been sent to SANCTIFY YOU WHOLLY.

A. M. Hill writes:

Here is a distinct declaration, not that one may possibly get such an experience, but that God has provided for this experience, and that it is His will, that is to say, His command that each of His children should be sanctified. God's revealed will is nothing less than a command.

What all does 'sanctification" encompass?

Is it a second time only "experience," or an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit?

When one is "called out" what kind of picture comes to mind? What does 'sanctification" look like? How does God change the substance of what we hope for?

In Christ
Jeff

Old testament origin; The terms 'sanctification' and 'holiness' are now used so frequently to represent moral and spiritual qualities, that they hardly convey to the reader the idea of position or relationship as existing between God and man or thing consecrated to Him; yet this appears to be the real meaning of the word, be it bad or good, as Judas was sanctified to fulfill scripture and Pharaoh. Both exist in God. The idea of separation, (God sanctification)is fundamental to that of holiness. At the same time it is admitted that the two ideas of holiness and separation do not merge, are not absorbed in each other, but that the former in a measure serves to qualify the latter. The Old Testament word for 'to sanctify' is qadash, a verb that is used in the niphal, piet, hiphil, and hithpa'el species. The corresponding noun is qodesh, while the adjective is qadosh.

New testament meanings are somewhat different because of the "In Christ" position of the believer, but to sanctify still is to set apart for God's work. Holiness through sanctification now in the new testament comes by the Spirit of Christ that is born again in the believer. Holiness outside of Christ is impossible, Sanctification is not, God can set apart any being, including animals or things to accomplish His Word. All that is set apart for God's Glory and His Pleasure is sanctified by Him. That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory is God's Sanctification for His Glory and the believers', through His own work and Christ's finish of it, "It is finished".

The verb hagiazo in the New Testament and its various meanings. The verb hagiazo is a derivative of hagios, which like the Hebrew qadosh expresses primarily the idea of separation. It is used in several different senses, however, in the New Testament. We may distinguish the following: (1) It is used in a soul mind, mental sense of persons or things, Matthew 6:5-9 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. What is sanctified? Praying this way, "Our Father", not as the others. What is the Holiness accomplished? That God's Name is Holy. Luke 11:2; This is what is sanctified in us; 1 Peter 3:15-17 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. What is sanctified? That when we pray God our Father is the Sanctifier and we are the sanctified. In such cases it means "to regard an object as holy," "to ascribe holiness to it," or "to acknowledge its holiness by word or deed." What is the Object, God the Father, Pray this way. (2) It is also employed occasionally in a ritual sense, that is, in the sense of "separating from ordinary for sacred purposes," or of "setting aside for a certain office," Matt. 23:17, 19; John 10:36; II Tim. 2:21. (3) Again it is used to denote that operation of God by which He, especially through His Spirit, works in man the subjective quality of holiness, by putting The Holy One Himself, birthed in the believer. He is our Holiness.

AS follows; John 7:16-18 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of Myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh His glory that sent Him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.

"he shall know of the doctrine", This is the process of sanctification, Not speaking of himself but the believer speaking of God that sent Jesus Christ unto what is true, no unrighteousness is in him, because it is the Christ in us that makes us righteous. Sanctified by God unto Holiness in Christ.
Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. Paul chosen and sanctified by God to His pleasure and His end; Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Again, God's Faith sanctifies the believer from darkness to light by the Christ that is in him. 1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Again sanctified in Christ by the Father for His Glory and the believers glory, which he cannot attain on his own. Who is the Sanctifier and the One that will do it? 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Finally, in the Epistle to the Hebrews it seems to be used in an expiatory sense, and also in the related sense of the Pauline dikaio-o, Heb. Hebrews 9:13-14 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: Purify what? Flesh. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? The Sanctified Christ sanctifies our conscience (moral conscientiousness) by the blood He shed on the Cross because of His Spirit in us. We are sanctified by the Sanctifier, God through His Sanctified Son unto our sanctified conscience.

Hebrews 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Do we want to take part in the Sanctification of Christ and be well pleasing to God? This is our Sanctification unto Holiness.

Hebrews 13:10-16 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
(The Jewish religious congregation within the Camp of the temple made with hands) Author added: For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto Him without the camp, bearing His reproach. For here have we no continuing city, (No Jerusalem on earth) but we seek one to come. (Heavenly Jerusalem) By Him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to His Name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

In Christ, carrying His Cross by Him that is in us daily, offering the sacrifice of Praise unto His Cross which is now our Cross, Daily.

Sanctified by His Cross.

Phillip