Woman should not teach men.

We must not use our feelings, experience, opinions or our heart that is deceitful. (Jer 17:9) We must rely upon the WORD that reveals GOD's love and salvation. HE directs every guideline by love to protect us, as if HE was saying "...don't hurt yourself, don't hurt yourself..." We must listen to our Father who inspired “…But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence…” 1Timothy 2:12 and the verses around it. “…Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” GOD reveals that there is a fundamental reason that goes back to The fall, and being born in the 21st century, knowing GOD’s WORD, being wise, being skilled, being the daughter of Billy Graham, or Chuck Smith does not negate HIS warning.

people say
“…I have seen the amazing ways that the Lord has used many women (who at first I dismissed) in incredible ways.”

We cannot honestly even assess what we see as “good” by our understanding which falls short of perfect evaluation? Further more what of those that shrug off the WORD can they truly succeed in anything? Paul addresses whether we can do good by doing evil? (READ Romans 3:8) When we think that we can diminish one part GOD’s WORD that we don't understand or have failed to receive, the rest is compromised. This will diminish at least in our mind the incorruptibility of an unshakable hope found only in the whole counsel or “intention” of GOD's WORD. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isa 55:9 or "Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvelous things without number:" Job 5:9

people say: "...look at the life of Jesus and how much he did to change the view and way that women were treated within that society you have to wonder…”

HE did clear up that women are co-heirs of Salvation, and that man & woman bear the image of GOD, that they have responsibilities, and strengths that are unique. But HE did not change HIS mind on where they are to remain in the order that HE created. HE is so good to take away Satan's lie that “GOD has put an oppressive roll or burden on us.” HE sets free those that have been seduced by a pagan culture that forsakes the joy, and peace which come with HIS HOLY presence. Truly HE is best perceived as we honor our MAKER as being Just and True in all HIS ways.

Lets also be honest about men and women, look at our culture today, and how being “liberated” to search for what we think is best has impacted our society. When men or women approach one another there is always the selfish nature that is covered up one way or another. They are not buzzing around to pollinate flowers sister! Interacting between men & women would benefit from prudence that was scoffed out of practice years ago. No decent woman would pretend that walking around in a bikini 60yrs ago was not lewd, because even then they did not have any doubt about the ungodly nature of men and woman to lean toward sin which affects entire societies. It is such a lie to pretend that it is not an issue with acceptation to perverts, since man fell it has always been a stumbling block into carnal thinking, and carnally gained advantages.

I am grieved that a generation of preachers tip toeing around this subject of man's role, and woman’s role in the area of teaching, and authority to avoid the pressures of ignorant masses has left you to have to guess who you should be persuaded by, rather then it being fully revealed by the LIGHT of the WORD defended by men who LOVE the LORD with all their hearts, and lay down their lives for the truth. But as I see it most of our teachers have compromised addressing it clearly, and directly, leaving some of us to believe they have intended to gain unchallenged acceptance in a “liberated” generation , and win themselves wives in a backwards culture( "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. " Isaiah 3:1) Being motivated to find comfort, strength, confidence, security, even status by pursuing a mate, is being like Jacob. HE say’s “No good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly” (Psalm 84:11), yet “he that finds a wife finds a good thing” (Proverb 18:22), we see that we are to seek GOD’s approval alone, and HE does not lie. Being motivated to capture the affections of any woman commonly effeminizes some men, and drives other to find an identity of manhood in this world through Harley's, big trucks, and trophy wives, rather then being a real man like Jesus Christ who sought not HIS own, was tough enough to lay it down, and mighty enough to take it back up. “…Narrow be the way…few there be that find it.“ (Matthew 7:14)

Some women say:
“…I have been amazed at how the Lord is showing me a new and libirating way of worship to Him and live to glorify His name…”

There are no new ways to worship the LORD, there has, and will always be one way.

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever." Heb 13:8

HE said:
\t
"...the true worshipers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship HIM." (John 4:23)

there is not any reality behind "evangelical" feminism, thats a false gospel, good news is GOD perfection heals a backwards world by HIS death

As for the main issue, Jesus Christ wants us “to be one as HE and The Father are ONE,” (John 17), but “Behold how good & pleasant it is…like the oil…” can only happen as a result of not cowering away from the WORD, so as not to lose those weak in the faith. Instead I dare say we must stand firm in the WORD, and patiently reason with those who have been submitted to false principalities, we are follow HIM in "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;" 2Co 10:5 Do not forget that judgment starts at the house of GOD! I am grieved to say this is an issue for the entire Body, not just men who have usurped authority beyond measure that refuse to keep accountable to the WORD before the Body (Matthew 18:17) “The Called out” is ALL of those called out not just the chief servants (pastor, elders, deacons). Fellowship should include reasoning through the doctrine of the Apostles, as well prevent disputes from being dismissible as divisive challenges of authority. That is a lazy copout of those who are not fit to contend for The Faith, rather some seek as little resistance as possible, and use authority to intimidate submission, rather then enlist faith, reason, and HOLY Spirit. Whether it is Roger Oakland addressing globalism, or John Doe Bible college student addressing perceived compromises. But the Scripture should be the beginning, and finishing authority. Especially in the genuine training of bondslaves of the MOST HIGH. As for knowing psychology has no place in the church, that the “Old Earth Theory” is disbelief, and conforming to the world is wicked. These things are evidences we need to humbly repent, not to brazenly charge on. If we are to err, prudence would be to err in caution, rather then presumption. We are called to be HOLY because our goal is to be like HIM not persist on remaining in liberties as if carnality with “fire insurance” (eternal security) is as good as it gets. HE can show us HIS glory here, and taste goodness that will even benefit us in eternity! Why pretend by resisting the HOLY Spirit that it is some kind of courageous stand against legalism? GOD is good!

I think you say so much it's hard for people to understand.

I agree for the most part, about the subject, but I don't think every preacher tip toes around it.

What about Debrah being a judge?

Or Aquila and Prisila teaching Apollos?

Even the the dauthers or Phillip in Acts 21:8,9 who gave prophesy?

It seems the LORD made exception, Like David with the show bread.

I was really dumping in as much as I could so I could cover most aberrances from the truth. I would receive a little direction on how to clear up any hard points, or places that don't "flow" well.

Anyway thanks for responding, this forum is kind of "clickish" I have offended more people by taking stands in the WORD then I would think possible among Christians (see santa's forum), I just love the LORD and am not trying to "cut off any ears" but instead of driving into meaningful discussion, some just click together and cry foul.

Anyway you had some good questions, I had those too. I appreciate people that don't just jump on a band wagon blindly. I have answers that are suitable, but I would prefer to study up freshly and respond to each one carefully a little later.

Quinn

DoulosQuinn wrote:
this forum is kind of "clickish" I have offended more people by taking stands in the WORD then I would think possible among Christians

Quinn

"clickish"
a narrow exclusive circle or group of persons ; especially : one held together by common interests, views, or purposes.

Lordy,Lordy,Lordy yes it's all our fault.
Just because you think you right don't necessarily mean you are, we all have the right to voice our opinions or views without being shot down like a bird out of a tree, I don't mind listening to anyone views as long as they can "gracefully" explain them. :-)

Quinn,
This is something I want to study more because as a woman, God has given me a great joy in evangelsim and preaching and its good to know the limits and bounds to what a woman can say and go about it in way that is holy and pleasing to God. I think we do need to really look into the context of what Paul is talking about when he speaks to the church about women. How were they behaving? Were they trying to do the men's job with a lack of wisdom? Saying that women can never teach men is a bold statement and it seems God used women when men wouldn't stand up in certian circumstances so I think it is a deeper issue to delve into. Something which I need to do myself... :-)

Peacecraft wrote:
God used women when men wouldn't stand up in certian circumstances so I think it is a deeper issue to delve into. Something which I need to do myself... :-)

Hey God used a woman to bring Jesus Christ into the world and he really did not have to, he could have just had him appear I am sure if he wanted to now I would say he uses women, I don't think any man has topped that yet. :-P

Mr. Quinn, I think you might be "preaching to the choir" on this site. . . I am a woman and I agree wholeheartedly that women should not teach in church (except children, or other women). . . did you hope you would offend somebody when you created this thread? It sounds like you did. . .

Actually I think women have the more "envious" position of submitting to their own husbands, and of being quiet at church. Our position is naturally more humble, and more than once the Scripture says that God gives grace to the humble. That's a precious truth to me.

Also, if we exhibit a quiet and gentle spirit, it is of great worth in the sight of God (1 Peter 3). It doesn't say that man's great leadership skills are of great worth in the sight of God . . .

I hope you have a Merry Christmas. You would love Paul Washer's sermons that are found on this site. He's right up your alley.

JennRich

(SermonIndex) I did not come here to draw disciples to myself brother Greg, I think it is fair to expound, and reason through scriptures THAT is what koinania is supposed to be about "the apostles doctrine" which is Christ Yeshua. As I wrote earlier, agreeing with you! men seeking to establish their authority among the saints have no Biblical support for that "nicolatinism" The LORD hates that. So we must agree to walk together (amos 3:3), right? Behold how good it is to dwell in unity (psalm 133)? The WORD's of our LORD never perish, and are the best basis for meaningful fellowship, it the only friendship that will last. I desire to have HIS WORD being clarity, where ever the author of confusion confronts our understanding to stir us to "dig for gold" as it were. ( NOT preaching to choirs, or hoping to offend people)

[I notice all over the world today, those with the Spirit of peace, demonstrate patience, and are hopeful to encourage meaningful dialogue, while on the other hand I think I've pegged the children of disobedience who seek to draw you out by malignment then by defending yourself further accuse you, like their father. I love dialoging among Christians here though...you know?]

(JennRich) Hey I'm grateful you have not been sucked into the confusion that is so commonly prevalent in our culture (even church culture) today, like always Glory to GOD, thank you for directing me to Paul Washer for review I hope your discernment about "my alley" was GOD given...we'll see :-)

(MrBillPro) GOD uses weak things, foolish things, even me! but I would always credit the wonderful GOD we have, not credit support to rally a "battle of the sex's" Ha Ha Ha! We are all in need of The GREAT KING, utterly dependant, like a child in a manger...

(peacecraft, laura) You should research! I would suggest doing google to read articles by Paul W. Felix, or Ron Rhodes on "Evangelical Feminism", that is wisdom to not just talk an emotional stand, I really am proud of you sis, that is the stout hearted courage of Sarah (1Peter 3:5). May the LORD reveal HIS secret counsel in the matter.

(Berean Minded) Deborah was giving judgement over the nation, it people, but since we know that GOD's WORD does not contradict it self, it is fitting by GOD's Spirit you mentioned David, and the show bread, GOD made room for human need's which demonstrates HIS selfless love, The people needed a Judge, and I believe the WORD implies the men (her husband at least it seems) were to busy worrying about their own interests that she filled the role, because she was filled with the Spirit and a prophetess. Deborah ‘s husband Lapidoth which means “Torches: unto the calamities” ( JB JACKSONs DICT of Hebrew names) which I might connect to Isaiah 50:11 "Behold, all you that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your own fire, and in the sparks that you have kindled. This I will give you; that you shall shall lie down in misery." Obviously she was godly and when she rendered judgement is was GOD's wisdom making demonstrating HE anointed her specifically, which HIS ways being unsearchable I can only presume HE was very present in each case considered, and she was very very submissive, even to the point she would say "The LORD GOD of Israel commands..." (Judges 4:6) But since Barak (who is in Hebrews 11's "hero's of faith") doubted she was given greater honor. Deborah "the Judge" was honored by the nation Israel as the Deborah's wet nurse was given honor by person Israel in Genesis 35:8. Both beautiful examples of women that really trusted, and submitted to GOD. But consider this, she did not go to the gate, or stand in the midst of the assembly to give judgment or prophesy, they came to her, and where she lived. (Judges 4:5)

That principle applies to Phillip's Daughters that you sited as well, they did not prophesy in the assembly, but at Phillips house while he was present. Which is a sign that were obedient to remain silent when the saints gathered.

The last example being Pricilla the wife of Aquila, true enough she clearly assisted the LORD and her husband to expound the WORD more completely to Apollos, yet her husband being present being principally responsible, and accountable in this situation was covered by the WORD's restriction, and in this case also they also did not contend together in the synagogue, they took him to themselves.

Woman should remain silent in the "called out" assemblies, and ask their husbands, fathers, or fathers in the faith with much prayer and humility.

JennRich was right in seeing that this calling for woman is grace, the precious grace of GOD not to take for granted.

LOVE Quinn

Quinn wrote:
[I notice all over the world today, those with the Spirit of peace, demonstrate patience, and are hopeful to encourage meaningful dialogue,

JennRich writes:
You're right, meaningful dialogue is important. . . but we can LEARN far more by reading/listening to the rich sermons on this site, than by mere conversations among ourselves.

I read that the Scottish people used to meet in each others' homes and raise Biblical questions among each other, but they always did this following a sermon at church. They would discuss what the pastor had preached, then "gather up the fragments" from it afterward.

Quinn wrote:

and I believe the WORD implies the men (her husband at least it seems) were to busy worrying about their own interests that she filled the role, because she was filled with the Spirit and a prophetess.

I do not find in the Word any implication that this was the case: the men were too busy doing something else to fill this need in the life of the nation. Deborah was a woman who had the Holy Spirit, which was a rare incidence in the life of any OT believer. It was given to her by God for edification to use among His people. To imply otherwise is to discount the working of God in the lives of his people.

Quinn, threads of this sort often times rattle females because too many times it is not balanced by the whole teaching of the Word. Too many times Scriptures are taken out of context to support a man's philosophy of a female's role in society. Some want to oppress females and use the Scriptures to do so, others will deny the Scriptures limiting the roles of a overseerer to males, etc. All teaching considering females roles in the life of the church must carefully take into consideration Joel 2:28,29: And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit; I Corinthians 11:1-16; history of the church in regards to females as recorded in Acts, Romans 16; Titus 2.

I have personally witnessed males who take this "silent in the church' to the extreme where a female is not allowed to sing, even in the assembly. There is no [Biblical] historical precedent to support such an interpretation. So what does it mean? Like all scripture, it must be understood in the larger context.

Quinn, in places your post seems to be confusing. It might be helpful if you were to balance it out with your opinion of how a female could effectively operate in the body of believers instead of concentrating on what she cannot do.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Well stated Ginnyrose.

Quinn,

Have hesitated to speak to you since you have gotten off to such a poor start here but can no longer hold my peace. I think you have some very wrong notions about what takes place here on this forum.

There is upwards of 3 years worth of conversation, sharing, exhortation and edification and more praying than could be imagined within this sphere of what many consider to be something of a Church, at least in the truest meaning of being the Lords Body. In that sense, 'we' are a church, a fellowship and I am taking great umbrage at your recognized or not contentious attitude. Perhaps it's only a misunderstanding but you are certainly coming across in this fashion. To infer that there is no appreciation for iron sharpening iron or a shying away from difficult issues couldn't be any further from the truth.

Whatever your knowledge or experience it is detrimental due to the spirit in which you convey these things, especially being so new to your surroundings.

For my part, I did not help matters by some of my poor choice of words, nor did I direct some of my thoughts elsewhere to you in particular as I ought to have done. Let me do so now. Forgive me for being vague rather than clear earlier in the now closed [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13898&forum=35#107202]Santa: Did You Know?[/url] thread. Not all of that was directed to you personally, that a part of what was stated generally about 'conspiracy' was directed towards the idea of turning word spellings inside out to reference a sort of satanic conspiracy just as much as anything, but I digress, poor handling on my part to begin with and it ended up only adding more fuel and confusion. For that I apologize. Another generality expressed was mentioned here indirectly to you as well;

This and that which is to follow I need to confess is [i]my[/i] confession first and foremost, that it may be a consideration only secondarily.

Recent days have seen and been wrought with great difficulties, challenges, and an unveiling of things deep down within, proving in fact that, [i]the heart is desperately wicked[/i].

Poor choice of words spoken here in a variety of places, clouded judgment and unspiritual leanings, not a dependence on God but on the 'reserves', whatever they may consist of. A great lack of prayer predominates and is my woeful lack, may it be rectified speedily, may those led pray for the fool.

Rather than attempt to unravel various misunderstandings, my own part in abridging contentions and controversies and only causing them to worsen, let me take advantage to thank those for the rebuke warranted in it's various forms, all things at all times a consideration and a pondering. I repent of all these above, I ask your forgiveness, I seek your prayers.

Honesty Brethren, [i]it[/i] is the prophecy that the Lord desires and I tremble to speak His mind when my own may be so far from His.

In all sincerity and without false humility, nor with any equivocation whatsoever, this is precise and I repeat it wholeheartedly;

-"[i]Behold I am vile! I abhor myself![/i]" (Job 40:4)

May the Lord have mercy.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10733&forum=34]Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride[/url]

Again, this was as much to you as to anyone else here and covers other areas, other postings. No excusing conduct that is unbefitting of a servant of the Lord, explanatory only to the point of necessity.

You are bringing much unneeded grief to this fellowship with an overbearing attitude whatever your intention or motivation. It may escape you, but you are coming across as a know it all and with a Mighty Mouse like "I have come to save the day!", BUT ... We all can do this in some form or fashion and most us of here are very astute to recognize both the plank and the speck and are not afraid to hold each other accountable, just as well, quick to forgive and move on.

[I notice all over the world today, those with the Spirit of peace, demonstrate patience, and are hopeful to encourage meaningful dialogue, while on the other hand I think I've pegged the children of disobedience who seek to draw you out by malignment then by defending yourself further accuse you, like their father. I love dialoging among Christians here though...you know?]

Brother, please, leave the insinuations and assumptions behind, do you not see the pride laced in such a statement? There is such a vast expression here that has been a drawing of others to really get down deep into the truths of this incredible life. We are striving to be transparent (I pray) as we ought and should be as reborn children of the Most High. We do fail as much as we succeed in this very peculiar gathering, this cyber way of communicating. It takes a great deal of patience and slow work and effort at times to really work through matters. Misunderstandings abound, it is just the nature of the structure with expressions being misapplied and torqued out of context, second thoughts, regrets, repentance and correction. On top of that, there is a whole cross section of saints in various states of understanding, from different cultures, upbringing and understanding. Many of us are not all that skilled at the vocabulary sometimes stressed to the point of breaking, attempting to make sense of the tremendous inward change that has taken place, others far better at it.

Many of the sisters in the Lord here are spiritual stalwarts, dwarfing many of us males and humbling as many. They are mothers, sisters, widows and very wise, their counsel invaluable, true lovers of God who need no special mention other than their expressions are evident of this fact. So for you to come in and start straightening everybody out is as unwise as it is unproductive. Lay down the sword and humble yourself brother. I will do the same, may we all do the same.

Phi 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves.

Let us be given the opportunity to do this across the board.

A woman speaks out in church: http://www.christianword.org/revival/heroes.html

"Meanwhile in Cardinganshire, in a tiny village named Ney Quay, the Lord had been quietly preparing other instruments for the coming awakening. The Rev. Joseph Jenkins had been deeply concerned about the lack of anointing in his own preaching, which compelled him to desperately seek a deeper life in Christ. Andrew Murray's book, 'With Christ in the School of Prayer' came into his possession and moved him greatly at this time. He became increasingly burdened by the indifference among the Christians around him and the apathy of the young people in his own church. He exhorted them earnestly to obey the Spirit. This was in the early part of the year 1904. A Testimony Lights The Fire The kindling was now ready, but the spark to light the fire would come from an even more unlikely source. In a Sunday morning prayer meeting for young people, Pastor Jenkins asked for testimonies of spiritual experiences. Several tried to speak on other subjects but the pastor stopped them.

At last a young girl named Florrie Evans, who had been gloriously converted just a few days before, stood and with a trembling voice said: "I LOVE JESUS CHRIST - WITH ALL MY HEART"! [b]With these simple words the sparks that God had planted in so many hearts burst into flame and the great Welsh Revival began.[/b]

The fire quickly spread to Blaenanerch, New Castle-Emlyn, Capel Drindod, and Twrgwin. Streams spread abroad like lava from a great volcano - soon multiplied thousands were aflame with the Holy Spirit's testimony of the glorious Son of God."

There was a Welsh Revival, that is for sure, my great grand parents were saved during this move.

I even believe that it is quite possible Florrie Evans had an outburst.

But I not being privy to witness, or hearing second hand or by GOD's first hand am able to recieve that she kicked it all off by contradicting GOD's WORD, it not very likely, especially considering how much prayer, fasting, and even sorrow was set in great motion long before the outbreak of the HOLY Spirit. Obviously the fire was real, but a child crying out was the result, not the initiater.

Crsschk
I am confused about how “well stated” Ginny Rose was, but true enough we (you and me) did get off on the wrong foot, (In Santa’s Forum) and am deeply impressed by the godliness demonstrated by your gracious effort to reason with me with such humility. I see your wisdom, and can assume you have a significant role in the Body for HIS good pleasure.

Please understand I am still unsure about how to receive all of this admonishment

“I am taking great umbrage at your recognized or not contentious attitude. Perhaps it's only a misunderstanding but you are certainly coming across in this fashion."

“You are bringing much unneeded grief to this fellowship with an overbearing attitude whatever your intention or motivation. It may escape you, but you are coming across as a know it all and with a Mighty Mouse like "I have come to save the day!"

"...leave the insinuations and assumptions behind, do you not see the pride…”

“for you to come in and start straightening everybody out is as unwise as it is unproductive”

I am new to this forum but have discussed relevant issues “matter of factly” without confrontations of insult before many people. I really just want the LORD to be recognized, so I am oblivious to how I am seen, all the more to exhort others to fix their eyes on Jesus, The ONE true shepherd. But am willing to remain a spectator since you have been here so long, and are so well respected. Sorry for troubling everybody. GOD bless you all as you truly Bless HIM in pure worship. I hope your discussions are very edifying, and stir the Body to action.

Ginnyrose
“I do not find in the Word any implication that this was the case: the men were too busy doing something else to fill this need in the life of the nation. Deborah was a woman who had the Holy Spirit, which was a rare incidence in the life of any OT believer. It was given to her by God for edification to use among His people.”

It was implied, just like Nabal’s name spoke to Abigail back then and us today, Peoples names have meaning, even inspired truths, look at the Patriarchs, even take the names of the sons of Seth, their names defined and placed in order up to Noah give a salvation message, there are other great examples.

Many people see how GOD equips the called, not call the equipped, yes she received HIS Spirit because the need was there.
WHAT IS obvious to me is GOD doesn’t contradict HIMself, HE said not to teach, (she didn’t), or have authority over men ( I do not read her doing that directly either, even when she goes with them to war), to remain silent in the assembly ( which is not contradicted)

She sings with Barak out in the field, like Miriam sings with the daughters of Israel,

“…threads of this sort often times rattle females because too many times it is not balanced by the whole teaching of the Word. Too many times Scriptures are taken out of context to support a man's philosophy of a female's role in society. Some want to oppress females and use the Scriptures to do so…”

GOD’s loving WORD should not rattle women, even if it is discussed in a thread. What scriptures are “out of context to support a man's philosophy of a female's role in society?” GOD is very clear HE goes all the way from Timothy to Genesis to explain that the “fundamental reason that goes back to The fall…” as my paper explains keeping the context of the message. I believe you been persuaded by your own bias. I believe that carnal men have created much distrust in the sight of many women, but HE commands women on how to witness too, with a quite spirit, not out right exegetical challenges. YOU ARE WALKING ON DANGEROUS GROUND! Why call GOD an oppressor? David Wilkerson in “Do I Believe” in the compilation MP3’s on this site, said The Israelites would not accuse GOD directly, instead they looked to human error, to deny HIS WORD. I believe you are denying the crystal clarity of HIS WORD. Because you have been deceived the same way millions of others have.

Do you think there is no such thing as a man any more? How about Jews, is there such a thing as a Jew any more? Of course there is, but in regards to salvation we all stand level, bared, and naked before HIM to whom we have to do (Hebrews 4:13)

Women are co-heirs of life’s grace (1 Peter 3:7 ), and we are heirs of Christ (Romans 8:17)
But a woman was created for man (1Corithians 11:9) so please don’t pretend like men are running around looking for an excuse to make these call’s by HIS WORD, we are responsible, and accountable whether you deny GOD purposes/intentions or not.

“I have personally witnessed males who take this "silent in the church' to the extreme where a female is not allowed to sing, even in the assembly. There is no [Biblical] historical precedent to support such an interpretation. So what does it mean? Like all scripture, it must be understood in the larger context.”

If the WORD ( great biblical/ HIStorical precedent) says that she sould remain silent, maybe we should lean toward caution, rather then presumption…if we fear the LORD.

”Quinn, in places your post seems to be confusing. It might be helpful if you were to balance it out with your opinion of how a female could effectively operate in the body of believers instead of concentrating on what she cannot do.”

Me making up protocol for women from “my opinion” would be foolish, I refuse that. Wisdom would say to see where the Bible is clear, and does not contradict the rest. The LORD loves us HE said not to fear, HE has good things for us. It comes down to trusting GOD=wisdom, or fearing man=snare. TRUST GOD.

And stop teaching please… “All teaching considering females roles in the life of the church must carefully take into consideration Joel 2:28,29…I Corinthians 11:1-16; history of the church in regards to females as recorded in Acts, Romans 16; Titus 2.” THIS twisting and reordering scripture through a reverse filter, I dare say is casting shadows to draw contradictions as authoritive, and is better is addressed in “Evangelical Feminism” by Paul Felix.

If you really are “spiritual stalwarts, dwarfing many of us males and humbling as many.” I am sure GOD would give you the humility and courage to accept HIS order as grace like Sister Jenn, because there is no superiority, just us, and the only wise GOD, worthy of ALL GLORY.

JennRich you were right! Paul Washer's sermon on dating was good, he had the point about 60yrs ago that lewd behavior was unacceptable. He was pretty firm about his convictions too, thank you.

Crsschk

I am sorry about my response to you, I was reading Josephus about community rule of the Essenes aka "sons of light"
I was heavily convicted about being right with you. I have been wounded by what I thought was my family in Christ, but were more concerned about attracting numbers, as a result I am a little quick to be a little passionate, that is no excuse, But I am sorry my friend, I am sorry.

I am 32 yrs old, 6yrs old in Christ.
I was studing Bio-chemistry at a state U, in my 3rd year, I was in a fraternity, I was 1 and half year seperated from a long term (7yrs) relationship, I was drinking a lot, I was not being repectable, I was using speed, I was sad and depressed, things were falling apart all over the place. Then in the middle of it some church dropped the Jesus film off at my door, I watched it a couple of times I was informed that all the bad press Jesus got was probably false...but I didn't get saved because I loved my sin...At a party some Gothic girl was blasting Jesus Christ so I (beer in hand) defended HIM, and thought I did a good job. the next week driving home froma party my and a friend were talking about GOD, his mom was born again, and had given him a Wow CD, he popped it in , I was impressed with it...he gave it to me...I would listen to it when escaping on wilderness hikes...started singing along one day the word penetrated my heart as I considered GOD was always good, that it was me that screwed everything up. A real peace came upon me, the LORD touched me... I was searching for more...sometime later I ran across a great song on the FM, as I made diner a commercial interupted kept going, and going, and...I went to turn it in frustration, I walked to the dial, and heard "Jesus." The man Mike Kessler from CSN Calvary Satelite Network he was talking about David his sin(big one), and how he was a man after GOD's own heart...needless to say an annointed teaching touched my heart, I started to listen regularly and even reading a little, praying...still using,drinking,etc like a slave...then one day everything came to a head, GOD brought me in revealing the very personal nature (to me) of HIS sacrifice, I was born again....lots of changes, battles, suffering... great blessings and victories later, here I am. Right now I am fighting for my spiritual life as it were...I have been deeply hurt by people that I invested much of my life into...the only family I have known since being born again...I don't know how to cope, I am fighting to keep my zeal, but am loosing against depression...I can't even read my Bible...for 5 weeks, first gap more then five days (from reading) since I came in. I just want to run away from everyone that wants to help, especially close friends. Sorry

Just peaking in here:

One day God called me to be silent. I was to be the worship leader for an evening service, and so I asked God what HE wanted. He said, ‘Be silent.” He made it most clear: no spiritual wording, no scriptures, no prayer (as was the usual pattern). Just the bare minimum: Announce the songs.

That day God’s Spirit descended on the service like I had never seen before. Even the most resistant diehards could not deny this. (I will leave out the details)

However, God was not in the business of entertaining. There were many issues at stake in the life of that church, which God brought forth through that event. Sadly the church failed to recon with God, and judgment fell on it not long afterwards.

I later realized that God was not establishing a fixed formula by requiring my silence. I admit, the event was so awesome that I determined to be silent forever after. Then maybe God's Spirit would keep on descending. God rebuked me in no uncertain terms, and then I could see that my determination was an insidious step in the direction of self-rule: rebellion.

I say, from self-examination, that we have a strong natural bent to search for a letter of law to follow. That can lead us away from our Lord faster than we can imagine!! We want to feel in control, and have all our dominos lined up.

Those who are concerned about women usurping authority over others have a justifiable concern. It was a problem even in Bible days, as it is now. Surely that is why Paul addressed it. Using control, even by subtle means, is such a temptation for us women, whether it be over children, husbands, friends, or whomever. Also, using mind/emotional control as a means of teaching something is also a violation of God's design. It is the result of being OUT from under the authority of God.

No one, regardless of who we are, is free to usurp authority OVER others. That is basically sheep-stealing – stealing sheep from their rightful Shepherd. ..
...not to deny the need for genuine authority that strengthens the Body.

There is indeed a place for silence in the church:

“They must be silenced
because they are ruining whole households
by teaching things they ought not to teach.” Titus 1:10

Our churches have failed to heed this warning. And indeed, whole households are ruined. Heresies promoted in pulpit/TV/books go unchecked by the Body. Ex: legalistic adherence to law (of some form), without submission to the Spirit. Our preachers have been permitted, and even paid well to say what they want. They have failed to submit to the voice of the Spirit and nevertheless, without any sense of conscience, they step into “their” pulpits and spew out all manner of weak and false teachings, that leave the Body paralyzed. By usurping ungodly authority, they silence those who aught to speak while they themselves aught to be silenced.

When our interpretation of scripture weakens the body, then we have failed to understand the Spirit and purpose of those laws.

Diane

I don't know how to cope,

"He must increase, I must decrease." Jn 3:30

Our Lord said to Paul: "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9

Something to consider: HOW is God's grace sufficient?

God's blessings on you.

Diane

I was heavily convicted about being right with you. I have been wounded by what I thought was my family in Christ, but were more concerned about attracting numbers, as a result I am a little quick to be a little passionate, that is no excuse, But I am sorry my friend, I am sorry.

My brother...

If I may put this in it's right frame of reference ... Think I can understand just a little of what is meant by;

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Difficult to apply this, my emphasis would be on the side of the angels as much as my own repentance. There is a corollary to this as well; Christmas (Yes, I love this particular time for a whole variety of different reasons past the origins and muddled mess it can be) being yesterday and at least here it was beautiful in a variety of ways, even sobering and bittersweet ...
The corollary, a brother who we had some disputings in the past, a rather scathing rebuke that at the time I felt warranted lingering, details would prove to be far too involved here to explain ... We met and embraced, an unspoken reconciliation, well past an emotional, 'seasonal' aspect of emotion. For the problem lingers still ... it is just that the spirit is now accurate if I could put it that way.

So to come back here and hear these words and more ... Brother, I could not pray at all, for I had the same understanding that you stated;

I was heavily convicted about being right with you.

Two things I might convey. If it is the Lord, it is His spirit bringing about His understanding to a situation it is most certainly distinct from anything generated out of this foolish man, for he is often quite foolish indeed, recent days have proven it actual and factual. In the one instance it is the flesh out of control, regardless of how much I might think it otherwise, laced with spiritual understandings, backed with scriptural 'warrant', all these things and still ... It can be wrong, ruined, even sinful. It is of the wrong spirit, flatly.

In the other, it is hesitant, regretful, even a fear to have to bring things out, all the while the mirror reflecting ... "Who am I to state such ...?". Times when I do not even want to return back to hear the response, such as this one. Remember Paul's injunction?

2Co 7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

How that verse and following used to confuse and bewilder! And even now to draw similarities, difficult, would only say it is around the edges, for it is something the Lord alone can touch and where I am getting all disjointed and far from the point ...

Brother, this brought tears, and followed on with more of your forthcoming being brought out here before all. I am learning a great deal my friend, more and more it keeps coming back to that almost catch-phrase-ish ideal of '[i]walk in the spirit[/i]' and ... We know it well enough and mention it in that fashion because it seems to me that too often we can take incredible spiritual truths and make them, well, like unto catch phrases, the tendency to glide over them ... Bear with me brother, the longwindedness still something of a challenge.

I am learning this with my wife, with the aforementioned brother, with the saints here, at work with others. It seems often times a contradiction but I am more apt to believe it to be paradox. It is all those things that we read in scripture, those seemingly 'opposites', going 'two miles' rather than one, truly doing good to those who spiteful use you, even to the point of extravagance over a more 'principled' approach. What I am at great expanse attempting to put forth is .. what I might 'think' is the remedy for a particular situation is very most often not the way the Lord would have me approach it. The aforementioned brother and the scathing letter, what did it bring forth? It wrought no change, brought no fruit, it may have produced guilt but the problem remains. Similarly my own wife. A few here know of the situation, she is somewhat backslidden (long story) has a pot addiction and other issues. Similar unwise tactics have proven to give the same results, nothing, no change, only a entrenching of the same position, denial, bitterness ... I apologize for this length. The problem? I was trying to force the issue and it really boils down to manipulation as much as I despise that. It is born of the flesh, it's 'earthy, of the earth' and it is all but worthless. I have lived it and proven it. Flatly, it is not of the spirit, the letter kills indeed! A word in due season, that, Oh that this could be understood how tremendous an admonishen this is. What I 'think' and what the Lord would have us do, say and far more often just keep silent on ... to suffer as it were quietly, in that hidden realm, where only you and the Lord know the particulars, to [i]wait[/i] truly wait on the Lord, to hold our peace... There is just a world of understanding here and how often I betray that which I know even from experience! Ah, we are such pathetic creatures!

Quinn, your forthcoming here, these things brought out from your own life and testimony .. Oh my! If you wish to see some uncanny similarities, click on this fool's profile and read my own paltry testimony ... Remarkable, brother, truly remarkable.

Right now I am fighting for my spiritual life as it were...I have been deeply hurt by people that I invested much of my life into...the only family I have known since being born again...I don't know how to cope, I am fighting to keep my zeal, but am loosing against depression...I can't even read my Bible...for 5 weeks, first gap more then five days (from reading) since I came in. I just want to run away from everyone that wants to help, especially close friends. Sorry

Quinn, I praise God that you have come here. You are amongst those who share their difficulties and problems, struggles and truly care and love each other in the Lord. This is no fancy, abstract, Christian language to be taken lightly. These are serious and seasoned saints amongst us, there are true intercessors and real concern for each other. 'Nameless', 'faceless' does not apply to the majority that continue on together in this communion of the saints, unorthodoxly 'orthodox', peculiar and lacking certainly in many aspects, not seeing with our eye's and hearing the sound of the words ... But the heart and the spirit ...
You are amongst friends, brethren, lovers of God, true help and true care.

Brother, this is all the Lord's doing, what an incredible thing it is.

I have always said if your going to spread the Gospel make sure it's not the Gospel that you've heard but the Gospel that you've read.
We must remember that the Word is the "Living" Word and each scripture will minister to each of us differently and even a little differently each day, and this is why it's so important we "stay" in the Word, because anyone can come along and tell you "their" interruption of any scripture, but if God is trying to personally minister to you through a scripture you will only be more confused, this is why everywhere I go I carry my Sword so when someone mentions any scripture to me I have to personally read it for myself and see what the "living" Word of God personally ministers to me on that particular scripture, we can't keep the "Living" Word of God in a box, and you will if your not letting each scripture minister to you personally, there is "NO" stereotyping the Word.

Welcome Quinn!

I just want to run away from everyone that wants to help, especially close friends. Sorry

Well you've come to the right place then...you can feel free to run away and when you come back we're still here!

I have been wounded by what I thought was my family in Christ, but were more concerned about attracting numbers

Without knowing your particulars or sharing mine, let me say thankfully we can relate.

I am learning that the wounds of church growth ministries are widespread...which is ironic since the mission of church growth is customer satisfaction. Yet the broken, hungry, poor, and those sorrowful over sin are estranged and lonely in the midst of man's customer satisfaction...they need to see the Lord lifted up to the encouragement of thier souls. Many pasteuprenuers are so busy 'ministering' to the wants of various unbroken and fat demographics that they seem to have forgetten their first love...to minister to the Lord.

Indeed it is sadly easy for us to forget.

Your honesty dear brother has been a reminder to me of who we minister to first.

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity...

Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward.

It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

Blessings Quinn,

MC

DoulosQuinn wrote:
JennRich you were right! Paul Washer's sermon on dating was good, he had the point about 60yrs ago that lewd behavior was unacceptable. He was pretty firm about his convictions too, thank you.

JennRich writes:
I'm glad you got to hear it. . . it's so neat that we have free access to such sermons, it's like a goldmine. I like to read Jonathan Edwards, Tozer, etc. found on here.

Paul Washer and I belong to the same church and I can tell you, he's very real and very humble. But he ignites with Godly fire in the pulpit and it's like life-giving medicine for our souls.

I really need the prayer, that is one thing I have seen make so much differance, HE hears prayer, and demonstrates HIS love through it.

What a touching thread, quite an unusual one, I say. Praise God so much! Do allow me to welcome you too DoulosQuinn.

My belief over this issue is, whatever the [b]Apostle Paul's[/b] instructions are concerning woman's roles for the proper order of our Lord's Church should rule,since he [b]was [/b]the apostle God sent for the Church. In my view, " do not usurp authority over man...", the authority here equates or rests in the Word of GOD, as the Bible comes with the authority of GOD, when a woman teaches Bible [b]at [/b]men, that puts her in the authoritative position right there.

As a woman, in the past, I have taken a lot of heat from both women and, surprisingly,more so from men, in various church buildings for taking the stance of "...be ye silent", a strange time we live in.:) For sure, the rapid growth of female leadership seems to be at an exponential rate everywhere. The world's church buildings most definitely have their share.

Where there is Godly man-leadership, women probably can always serve in other capaciities,and most definitely should not compete with them. The one church building which I still visit at times (it's far) is an very orderly one, part of the reason I believe, is that the women there do subject to Paul's teachings in light of the leadership issue. The women teachers only teach children Sunday school with the husbands as the leader and they teach other women.

Just some of my views and experiences..

I was like those false bretheren too before I was born again, thought being nice & friendly was equated with righteousness, I promoted women as leaders to show how unbigoted I was, how Muslims were the same as Christians, and that anyone that was passionate about any subject was crazy or at least unstable in some way.

Then I saw my sin, and received the real Jesus Christ as LORD & KING and became born again now I am a Bigot by The BOOK that holds the unchanging promise of HIS love.

Ah, praise GOD for all the good He brought you so far, and for all the not-so-pleasant you had to live through in the past, once again, Romans 8:28 is on display!

Dear brother, join our Lords's Body in this lifelong journey..till that day..

May God help us all to

[color=0000CC]".. grow in grace, and in the [b]knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.[/b] To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."[/color]

thanks for sharing so much

“Right now I am fighting for my spiritual life as it were...I have been deeply hurt by people that I invested much of my life into...the only family I have known since being born again...I don't know how to cope, I am fighting to keep my zeal, but am loosing against depression...I can't even read my Bible...for 5 weeks, first gap more then five days (from reading) since I came in. I just want to run away from everyone that wants to help, especially close friends. Sorry”

Quinn, as I Christian brothers, our prayers will be toward you… Quinn please do not rest in your works for Christ but in Christ works for you.
Christ’s Life, which brings you righteousness
Christ’s death, which brings you forgiveness
Christ’s Resurrection, which brings you victory in your new life over all enemies
Christ’s intercession, which speaks on your behalf
We love you here, Quinn
LOVE, Andy

Quinn, When you said “Right now I am fighting for my spiritual life as it were.." I call those valleys when I go thru what you just described, matter fact I am going through one right now because I just stopped helping my daughter financially "which I Love very much" but I was being an enabler and I really never even looked at it that way, but with Gods help I will get thru this valley.
A friend sent me a couple scriptures and a little personal advise to help me with what I am going thru maybe if I share them they may Bless you also.

Find someone with whom you can share your load. Many people undergoing severe trials make the mistake of trying to handle them alone. Without question, those who reach out to others in times of need benefit from doing so. We need human contact. "Two are better than one ... But woe to him who is alone when he falls, for he has no one to help him up" (Ecclesiastes 4:9-10).

Eat a balanced, nourishing diet.Our bodies and minds are much less able to deal with stress and other difficulties if we do not provide them with the nutrients they need.

Develop your sense of humor."A cheerful heart is good medicine (Proverbs 17:22, NIV). Humor helps us rise above stresses

Learn from trials and suffering.They can help us learn new skills. Jesus Christ learned by His difficult circumstances and experiences (Hebrews 5:8), and so can we.

God Bless
Brother Bill

Hi Brother Quinn...

I will be praying for you in your spiritual plight. There are quite a few wonderful brothers and sisters in the Lord here. I have grown tremendously in the faith over the course of a few years. Much of that growth has come from the plethora of spiritual "meat" found in the messages available at SermonIndex. However, there is quite a bit of growth that can be attributed to the forums too.

I have learned that it is often best [u]NOT[/u] to take a firm position on an issue that is not completely clear to ourselves from the Word of God. In other words, there are doctrines that are interpreted in different ways by different believers. Through the years, the forums have been filled with seasonal disputes about certain doctrines. There have been many arguments about the timing of the "rapture," the gifts of the Spirit, music, Bible translations, the place of women in the Church, physical modesty, diet, spiritual manifestations, etc...

Don't get me wrong -- there are certain doctrines of the Church that are irrefutable. These are spelled out in the Word, and are clear to even the most non-astute believers. We are even encouraged that we should "not lay again the foundation" of certain elementary truths from the Word of God (which are included in Hebrews 6:1-3).

However, there are other doctrines that are not quite so clear. Many of these have been handed down to us through teachers, pastors, books and even denominational practice. SermonIndex allows a community of believers from diverse backgrounds and maturity levels to discuss issues that pertain to the Church today -- particularly the fact that the Church is needful of a visitation of God like the days of old. The vision and guidelines for SermonIndex have been expressed many times by the Administrator (Greg a.k.a. SermonIndex). As an administrator, he has been quite generous about allowing individuals to discuss matters of doctrine that can sometimes turn into personal (or even doctrinal) attacks.

Understandably, there is a danger when an individual makes ultimate claims about an issue that is merely a persuasion or deduction. How often have we heard an individual claim "GOD TOLD ME" something about a doctrine when it isn't completely clear from the Word? I have heard many comments where believers claim to have "heard" the voice of God about matters that are not 100% irrefutably established in the Word of God. In my opinion, it falls awfully close to "bearing false witness" by putting words in the mouth of God that God might not have actually said. Even when done with sincerity, it is a terribly frightening thing to accuse God in such a manner! And of course, it should never be taken lightly.

We all have a set of beliefs that we have arrived to after much study and prayer. However, we must be careful that we do not have a "[i]I'm right/You're wrong[/i]" attitude in all such matters. We must also be careful not to treat individuals that differ in opinion as "[i]blind Pharisees and Sadducees[/i]." Instead, we should remain completely humble in all circumstances. We must realize that there are many individuals that might not ever see eye-to-eye on all matters of faith -- but they are still brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Personally, I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. I am persuaded by my "[i]own understanding[/i]" of the Word of God. However, I realize that my "[i]own understanding[/i]" should not be leaned upon. There are individuals that have shared a very clearly stated argument for a "mid-tribulation" and "post-tribulation rapture." There are some that share a belief in a combined "rapture and second coming" (that they are one and the same). They even share passages of Scripture that seemingly back up their positions (just as I have done for mine). As I have matured in the Lord, I do not feel that it is wise to ever "talk down" upon someone's sincere beliefs -- no matter how much we disagree -- as long as those beliefs are not a complete disregard to what is obvious from God's Word.

I don't say this as a matter of conviction, but rather as a means for encouragement. Please understand that I have been just as guilty for stating my beliefs without meekness and humility. There have been times that I have been so "certain" about a matter of doctrine that I have left my humility behind in order to ram those "truths" down the throats of others. Imagine my shock (and embarrassment) when I discovered that I was wrong -- not just about the manner of my discussion, but in my doctrinal belief as well.

It is a good thing to discuss the Word of God. This includes doctrines that are not completely clear from the Word of God. However, all such doctrines should be discussed in a manner in which we "esteem others better than ourselves." I will be praying for you. We all still have so much to learn on our pilgrimage! I pray that we are able to humbly encourage one another in this walk with the Lord -- especially as we see that day approaching.

:-)

I have one question on this subject. What if the position of authority was not usurped by the woman, but appointed by the community of believers? Debora as mentioned tried to take the back seat in battle, but was told to lead by a man who should have been in authority. What then?

[b]"A bruised reed shall he not break"[/b]

I just want to say how blessed I am to see the gentleness which is binding the wounds of Quinn in this thread.

CCC and Dorcas - thanks for your tender care in bringing this issue to where it needs to be.

God be praised who is our healer!

KDB

Dear Dorcas,

thanks, that makes good sense

"...,Quinn, as I Christian brothers, our prayers will be toward you… Quinn please do not rest in your works for Christ but in Christ works for you.
Christ’s Life, which brings you righteousness
Christ’s death, which brings you forgiveness
Christ’s Resurrection, which brings you victory in your new life over all enemies
Christ’s intercession, which speaks on your behalf...

BROTHER thank you, I am reading tonight thru genesis, the LORD gave me some perspective about the source of my joy it just how Awsome HE, I thought that was impossible to forget, but a few storms, and a couple dangling carrots cause a near fall.

I LOVE the LORD, because HE took pity on my and heard my cry.

Good WORD from Eccl. Amen
thanks bro

Lots of solid perspectives, thank you for the thought.

Yet I am convinced that rapture theories, even with lots of good scripture adding light, or not clearly stated.

BUT it is in PLAIN GREEK, women are not to teach men...OR...have authority.

To pretend its a non essential or that if one can possibly skue the meaning if one can take other verses out of context, is much harder to buy that person receiving the WORD as infallible, Say for example I say not everyone is under the curse of sin, (because there are only a handful of verses that say it) does that mean I would be safe from possible deception?

Likewise by overlooking GODs WORD about women, many have been hurt, and many more are in danger, if the church has undermined GOD ways, how does that effect the societies that they live with...?

Sister...right?

Sister, Wait a second...what scripture says Deborah lead the army, gave commands, or was given authority by Barrak? (this is why 1Timothy 2:11-14 should be heeded)

Deborah was just compelled to take her life in her hand to accompany Barak to assure him that she gave the WORD of the LORD as a true prophet.

Prasie GOD though huh, she was the LORDs vessel too, and HE never contradicted HIS commands.

The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit, and women are subject to spiritual deception.

Men that have been born again should contend, and assert the authority of GOD's WORD and the doctrines of the apostles alone. Maybe raising children would be more enjoyable, but that is our cross (our nation, families, and lives) are what we have to answer for...OK dear sister?

That is even if everyone at "Saddleback Cathedral of the HOLY emerging seeker" call's you and desires to make you the protestant "vicor of Christ" The WORD is clear don't do it.

I should add this, we should not build up new laws and tradition's (ie. Phasee sabboth traditions) adding to GOD's word about it to conteract the compromising, just what you are taught that is confirmed by the WORD, obey with a clear conscience.

What you have been taught does fit in the guidelines, and the Spirit of the Law.

:-)

Right now I am fighting for my spiritual life as it were...I have been deeply hurt by people that I invested much of my life into...the only family I have known since being born again...I don't know how to cope, I am fighting to keep my zeal, but am loosing against depression...I can't even read my Bible...for 5 weeks, first gap more then five days (from reading) since I came in. I just want to run away from everyone that wants to help, especially close friends.

Quinn, how are you doing with your prayer closet time and bible study? You will find much healing by quieting yourself before the throne and just listening. Silence before the throne, let God get a word in edgewise, you might be surprised what you hear, you won't lose your zeal, rest about that and trust God who loves you.

Father help and heal Quinn, I ask in Jesus' name.

We must not use our feelings, experience, opinions or our heart that is deceitful. (Jer 17:9) We must rely upon the WORD

Well, the first thing I would like to say is this, many of those who allow women preachers believe that they are relaying on the word of God. Many that practice this, believe that 1Timothy 2:12 is a cultural bound Scripture that does not apply to their own culture today.

For example: 1COR11:5-6. It cannot be unequivocally asserted but the preponderance of evidence points toward the public head covering of women as a universal custom in the first century in both Jewish culture ([apocryphal] 3 Maccabees 4:6; Mishnah, Ketuboth 7. 6; Babylonian Talmud, Ketuboth 72a-b) and Greco-Roman culture (Plutarch Moralia 3. 232c; 4. 267b; Apuleius The Golden Ass 11. 10). The nature of the covering varied considerably (Ovid The Art of Love 3:135-65), but it was commonly a portion of the outer garment drawn up over the head like a hood. Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary

Does this head covering practice apply to our culture today?

I think if you can show that 1 Timothy 2:12 is a Scripture that is for all cultures than it is quite possible that you can easily show that this is indeed a violation to this Scripture.

One thing I have notice when men do not want to be men, woman will try to take their place. Men need to take their place and be men of God in the Church. What happened to the old “SEND THOU MEN!!” teachings? Numbers 13:2 2 Send thou men, that they may search the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel: of every tribe of their fathers shall ye send a man, every one a ruler among them.

I have seen first hand a woman instruct and take authority over the man; it was ugly.:-( It almost reminds me of Genesis 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, GO IN UNTO MY MAID; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. In fact, we have wars going on today because of Abram allowing God’s order to be reversed. One thing I have seen with my own eyes; whenever I have personally seen a woman who calls herself Apostle or Bishop I have also seen many times a weak and feminine man behind her. Note “This is what I have seen”.

I have also seen women who feel called to teach other women bible studies, and all kinds of men flock to their meetings. Whose fault is that? (Titus 2:3-4 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,)

My Mother came out of a ministry directly connected to Kathryn Kuhlman who did not even consider herself a pastor or an evangelist. “I try too keep my place as a woman,” she said “That’s the reason I have no church as such. I leave that to the men,” Kathryn Kuhlman

>COMMENT This is something I want to study more because as a woman, God has given me a great joy in evangelism and preaching,

I guess it would depend on if it is in the Church, or evangelizing in a different context.
Example. John 4:28-30 28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men, 29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? 30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him. COME SEE A MAN, now that’s a sermon I would preach. She pointed to JESUS and folks from the city went to him. In fact this reminds me of Luke 24:7-11 7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 8 And they remembered his words, 9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. 11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

Now here you have something problematic, the women are preaching the resurrection of Jesus to the Apostles.

>COMMENT There was a Welsh Revival, that is for sure, my great grand parents were saved during this move.

Believe it or not a lot of this revival was quenched by a woman instructing Evan Roberts.:-(

I remember one time while attending Bible College I had a class filled with women and not one other man beside the teacher. I started wondering WHERE ARE THE MEN TODAY???

One thing I can truly say, I have learned more from one woman than ten thousand preachers or professors. This woman did not only do acts of faith but she HAS LIVED A LIFE OF FAITH that requires not even a word. My Mother :-)

Sorry in a rush,

God Bless Josh

Brother,

I posted this in Islam is Satan worship,

"I must admit I was reading my RE's and I found that now (I am very tired) I see that my demeaner, and tone, and attiude are not represented very clearly.

It is easy to take boldness, and assertiveness as being arrogant. But the WORD says the righteous are as bold as a lion, I have Christ's righteousness. So I weld HIS WORD confidently because whatever is truly HIS, HE can back up.

Still I wanted to express the point, writing is impersonal, but I am not. I am tender hearted, because when I destroyed my heart, HE gave me HIS so believe that the tone of these is in the form of pleading."

Brother the "culture" excuse is a lie
GOD did not over look this point, HE did not make a mistake.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20

AND....

Besides the fact in my original about 1 Tim 2:12 being applicable because GOD goes back to Genesis.

In 1 Corth 11:10 say's the head covering is not for greek, jews, romans....but by creatures not affected by culture "...because of the angels"

HERE is the big thing though!!!PLEASE listen, what has caused so many to be stumbled in this (by our advesary who desires confusion) Though they start with a willing heart, for all the right reasons. They ( girls wear a covering / men standing for The WORD ) then they incounter feirce resistance (often Scripture out of context) from friends, unbelievers, or people with little faith, family, elders, established saints of the LORD, even chief servants (pastors, deacons) who are offended (why? GOD tenderly sees)certainly not Biblical offence. One of Two things happen, they either buckle and conform fearing disapproval=fear of man (which can be passed off as to conviction, by the father of lies). Or we encounter the resistance, hold to the WORD, and get a little pround, which is an attempt to cope with rejection by legalistic thinking, (IE. "I am holy and more pleasing to GOD, they are not!") Then GOD loves us too much to leave us to ourselves, so HE resists us, and we interpret our attempt to walk closer to the WORD as displeasing to GOD.

I would say this WORD "...narrow be the way, and few that find it..." victory is in Jesus Christ, dependance on HIM in the battle, comfort solely from HIM in oppression, and willingness to rejoyce in a hope we can not see. willingness to lose things dear to us, even our lives.

without wax, Quinn

It is easy to take boldness, and assertiveness as being arrogant. But the WORD says the righteous are as bold as a lion, I have Christ's righteousness. So I weld HIS WORD confidently because whatever is truly HIS, HE can back up.

Are you fishing for a complement or something? Why are you saying all this?

Brother the "culture" excuse is a lie

Calling it a lie is one thing but backing it with solid Scripture is another.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20

Well about a private interpretation, I think of the thousands around this world that believe this. So, I do not know if you can properly call it a private interpretation.

It’s a wonder how you seem just to skip all the problematic parts. Here I’ll post some again: You have a woman preaching Jesus to the men, and you have women preaching to the Apostles.

John 4:28-30 28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and SAITH TO THE MEN, 29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? 30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 8 And they remembered his words, 9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which TOLD THESE THIGS TO THE APOSTLES. 11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

Here I'll give one more they like to quote,
NAS Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Are you saying a woman can not share her faith or preach Jesus outside of the Church?

Josh

I find it intriguing how discussion on this never-resolving issue typically generates more smoke and heat than clarity. I wonder why. Maybe it’s because we aren’t living in the bigger picture of divine truth.

I see Bible truths/teachings like pieces of a giant puzzle. Our job is to learn where and how they fit into the bigger picture. Often, just when we‘re sure we’ve found the right place, we realize that one edge doesn’t match up with other pieces. The Bible illustrates many such dilemmas, and we have a good example here. You just can’t throw out a thousand truths (pieces) in order to fit your favorite one into the puzzle – no matter how black and white it looks to your natural eyesight. We just can’t prooftext our way through something while contradicting other references.

It is far better to place the bigger pieces into the puzzle FIRST, before attempting the smaller ones like this one. It is better to fit in the corner pieces, the border, the obvious pieces – that is, those truths repeated over and over again from cover to cover. As someone said, “Live in the bigger picture.” Then those final pieces will just plop in – with a perfect fit. Of course, in some people’s minds, the gender references are the biggest pieces that exist. However, with that viewpoint, all other pieces are simply obscured in the smoke.

Why not take the time to understand, through Spirit revelation, the bigger picture first, that would include the issues that the Bible says a great deal about – for example, submission to God, prophetic pictures of Christ and the Bride, teachings about the kingdom of God, authority (in general) and teaching, preaching, interpersonal relationships, relationship with God, role of the Spirit, order in the church, letter vs spirit, etc, etc. Come back to this one in a few years, and see how it fits.

I will just put forth one (of many) examples of faulty church practice that make it impossible for us to resolve this gender issue: authority. Our churches practice authority just as the world does, but not like Christ teaches. In the world, authority is associated with position, power, hierarchy, status, etc. The world practices authority OVER, rather than authority UNDER. Our entire church governmental structure sits on a worldly foundation. No wonder we can’t make many Biblical teachings fit in anywhere, unless of course, we adjust them to fit – which is exactly what we do with many of the puzzle pieces. And then we wonder why our churches aren’t any better.

I will never forget a discussion, some years ago on this issue, with a lady friend. She had been a principal of a good-sized Christian school, and yet, in her church, she did not practice her gifts, or share her godly insight. By choice, she usually maintained a silent role. It was smoother that way. We both admitted we prefer that position: It absolves us of a lot of responsibility, it protects us from rejection, it allows us to enjoy feigning ignorance (unconsciously, though). For me, it safely keeps me from that dreaded “holy-of-holies” – that platform. It has kept me where I prefer – as a behind-the-scenes worker, or at the piano with my back to the people. … Do you see all the fleshly reasoning going on here – reasoning built on a foundation of unbelief and fear? Do you see how this reasoning hinders the growth of kingdom of God? This is just what King Saul was like. Meanwhile the enemies were trampling all over God’s people.

There is certainly a place to be silent, to rest quietly in the Lord, to learn to listen, and to trust him to build HIS kingdom, to work faithfully behind the scenes. Our churches would be far better off with more of this. But if our motives are fleshly, even though they look godly on the outside, then we are merely practicing a form of godliness without its power.

We would be better off being concerned with what God is personally asking us to do or not do, than what we think OTHERS should or should not be doing. If we aren’t walking in step with the Spirit ourselves, then we certainly can’t tell others what is right for them.(Now, if I could just practice that myself…… )

We can't do a thing to change others anyway, including churches practises.

Diane

Dear Quinn,

I simply asked a question to get a response. I too believe that woman are not to usurp authority over men.

My question is if there are no men that step up to do the work do women have the option to labor until they do?

Did God use Deborah, the woman at the well, Priscilla, Mary, Mary & Mary, etc.?

My personal opinion is that the more mature women should teach the less mature to love thier husbands and children and to be Godly women, but I am afraid to put down the work many women have done believing they were serving God.

If a woman found herself in a situation where a man was lost and in need of the salvation message, maybe a life or death situation, should she say sorry, I can't share the gospel with you, you will have to wait for a man? Will God be roth with her because she shared the word of God with him and he got saved?

Thoughts?

The following from the pages of "The Christian In Complete Armour" by William Gurnall...
"Beware Christian! Contention puts the soul into disorder. When the spirit is in a commotion, the law of grace does not act freely. Even Moses, the meekest man on Earth, was provoked to the point that he spoke unadvisedly. The Devil eagerly sets an evil spirit to working between brothers. What a folly it is for us to bite and devour one another, thus making sport for Hell. Alas! Too often we mistake our heat for zeal, but in fact strifies between saints is a made-to-order fire-ship which Satan can use to break the unity of the saints."
Should we not take heed? I know I must lest... :-?
richie

My personal opinion

If...

Diane

I am new to this forum and was hoping this was a way to get answers from more knowledgable believers. To ask questions is to find an answer from those more wise than yourself. I in no way wanted to say this is what should be done, but what should be done in this situation?

It seems that any subject should open for discussion and that complete, easy to understand responses would be good, because some may not be skilled at deciphering the underlying meaning. I am speaking for myself here as I am missing the meaning of the response.

Hi, Goldminer, My thoughts were aimed at a general condition of spiriutality - that, very obviously, apply personally to me. I need to grow in sensitivity to the Spirit: ex, not grab snippets of personal thoughts to relay general thoughts. I admit, more and more I know less and less. Life comes up with just too many unpredicable situations that I have no idea how to handle. I guess that's God's way of keeping me close to him.

God bless you in your search for God's truths. I know you find lots of great insight here in SI. And, (thankfully) not everyone is as impulsive as me.

"Seek and ye SHALL find." (!!)

Diane

Thanks Diane,

I was thinking the same myself just after posting. I need to talk less and study more. You have therefore confirmed what was already in my heart. Blessings

Josh (evangelist), no we don't seek honor from men, but to please GOD, I was accused by someone on another thead of being arrogant, and proud etc. I hate to admit it but I guess it got to me, I don't understand why it looked like I was fishing... the others were good questions though.

Scripture does not just address one culture exclusively brother, HIS inspired directives are inclusive, for mankind for "all things pertaining to life and godliness" (not just 1st century greece, his WORD is for today, even if a billion people act like the gospel is a fairy tale) Try rereading what I wrote, consider angels are not subject to fads, OK?

By the way I don't know of any problematic parts, ( or smoke without fire )

(read the definition of preaching first, then remember that they commanded not to teach)

The woman at the well did not teach, she bore witness, and asked a question to men. Not only that, she did not do it while believers assembled for public reading of scriptures.

Mary was obeying GOD, just like any woman out in the world should OBEY GOD. If HE says share your testimony do it, if you are led to ask questions...do it. I would say women are quite usable in HIS mighty hands.

Everybody, there are very clear directives, follow them fearing GOD! Where the WORD is not clear we should be cautious to follow what we do know.

If HE says share your testimony do it, if you are led to ask questions...do it. I would say women are quite usable in HIS mighty hands.

Doulos - Thanks for your permission to ask questions! I asked you one before in this thread which you did not answer.

Everybody, there are very clear directives, follow them fearing GOD! Where the WORD is not clear we should be cautious to follow what we do know.

How are you doing with the very clear directives to be in continuous prayer and in the Word?

You indicated in this thread to this group of posters that you were having difficulty with both and are a very hurting person. So I am asking...

How are you doing with the very clear directives of Proverbs?

In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips [is] wise. Prov.10:19

You indicated earlier you are hurting relationally also...

I am sorry to hear that, quiet yourself "douLoS", you are coming across as "SoLoud",

How can you hear God with so much clamor?

Follow Jesus' example, spend much time in prayer.

For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.
James 3:2

Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! James 3:5

I truly hope you find healing I have a feeling the way you are barging about that you are only adding more bruises to an already beaten up and tender heart.

Your sister, KDB

I would say women are quite usable in HIS mighty hands.

We cannot gloss over the Joel New Covenant promise: Indeed both men and women have been and will be empowered by the Spirit, and are called upon to responsibly use that which God has given them, under HIS authority – in every aspect of their lives. To disobey is sin.

Let’s admit, most of us have no idea what “prophesying” means. For most it is almost a non-word – or maybe it refers to a few fluffy words someone speaks out from his/her church pew on Sunday. I doubt that this is what God means, even though that’s the way the word is used. Remember, we are in a spiritual war! Dare we discount God’s vital orders, because they may flow through an unexpected mouth? Or dare we get distracted with the dissection process.

I am referring to the tedious job of trying to dissect all the possible means of communication: teaching, preaching, prophesying, testifying… It is almost impossible to compartmentalize these, as they easily flow together. From my present understanding, it would seem hard to prophesy without incorporating some measure of teaching, or proclamation. It would be hard to testify without incorporating teaching, or vice-versa. And worse of all, our obsession to compartmentalize these measures may very well be squelching the Spirit – analyzing the life right out of God’s message. I doubt if the dispersed church were concerned about this. With no religious structure, they just trusted God moment by moment, and spoke the words given to them.

If it is God who gives the gifts, then can we not trust him to give gifts only to those he wishes? I say, a lot of issues would be cleared up simply by submitting to the Lord. First things first.

Let me disclose a personal opinion: I prefer male teachers – especially older ones – those who could function like surrogate fathers to me, those who could fill a spot in my heart where my own father wasn’t perfect (though, in my eyes, he was awesome, and still is) I would like males to fill my God-vacuum. That is natural, but not Godly.

Thankfully, at times God has helped move me on by using females to teach me, even ones younger than me, or less spiritual (in my prideful opinion). God knows, I need to learn that he himself fills all the void spots in my heart.

I can relate to the women in the Corinthian church who squabbled over who was the best teacher – Paul, Apollos, or... These immature women were looking to these men to do more than God had intended. They had their eyes on the wrong man. I confess, that can easily happen today. No wonder Paul said, “Ask your husbands.” That was like a pin in their balloon. They weren’t really interested in seeking the path to spiritual maturity, so it wouldn’t have mattered if the husbands were donkeys. Really they needed to seek God, but they first needed to learn how God was using their own husbands to build their maturity and love.

The natural preference for male leadership seems to be quite universal. Even in our modern secular universities women use male pseudonyms in order to make their literary works more acceptable. In the past I’ve considered joining a forum under the name DanE – just to see if people would respond differently to me. But, my ethics do not permit it. .. maybe some day…

In the Spirit there is no (natural) hierarchy, no free or slave. That means that in church God may very well have empowered a slave with spiritual authority that his earthly master does not have. Imagine being taught by your slave! Strange, huh! In the Spirit there is no ... gender….

DQ, Reading your earlier posts makes me feel unduly worried. I wonder, should I preface my posts with a warning: Men here, beware, some teaching may be included in this post.” Should I color-code the teaching parts, delete them? Should I only post my impulsive opinions. Frankly, it gets quite tedious, and self-absorbing.

To be honest, I post here, primarily for personal growth – as the interaction of thoughts and feedback acts as checks and balances to my own thoughts. But I trust that others at times may be edified, even males.

Apart from the Spirit, all my ramblings are nothing more than gobbli-gook.

Maybe that’s all this is…….. but just maybe a fragment in it is “useful” to someone.

Wha'dya think?

Diane

Everybody, there are very clear directives, follow them fearing GOD! Where the WORD is not clear we should be cautious to follow what we do know.

Hey, I do not believe in woman preachers in the Church, I just wanted to see how you would handle these Scriptures that’s all.

God Bless, Josh

Josh,
You make some interesting points...

I am reluctant to post my understanding on this subject since my previous one evoked some disgust but will risk it anyway.

As I understand the scripture forbidding females to teach men, I must conclude the writer is talking about the formal assembly of the saints, like taking charge of a church, females teaching a Sunday School class with adult males present, or leading discussion groups with males present. The reason for my understanding of this is because of the history of the NT church besides the Gospels, e.g., Anna in the temple, the Marys who were sent to tell the most wonderful news ever spoken: "He is RISEN!" Has anyone considered this?

The reason I ask this is because history teaches us a lot about how God's people understood his directives. The second of the ten commandments says: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images of any likeness of anything..." Then you go a few chapters later where God is specifically instructing Moses to do this very thing. How do you reconcile this [apparent] contradiction? Opps! I am teaching and Quinn hates that...ok, I will quit.

A Story: Almost 19 years ago when I started my volunteer work at a Crises Pregnancy Center, we were told to refrain from counseling males. We were to call upon the men who would be on call to assist if a male should come in. Ok, no problem: I worked for them and will submit to their authority. The day came when I was alone at the center and a man was coming in...I called the men who were supposed to be available but could not find any: no one answered the phone! I almost panicked! What on earth am I going to do? Then the Holy Spirit quietly asked me if I would refuse to give someone a cup of water simply because he is a male?" I said, "no, I would not." He said, "Go ahead, talk to him. You have the symbol of authority on your head, now use it!" "Yes, LORD! I will obey." And I did. This marked the beginning point in which I shared the gospel with any who crossed my path, always honoring each person as a potential saint of God who is loved by Him and who must see this love demonstrated through me.

I must agree with Diane....whether this issue will ever be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. It is elusive...men are so concerned about maintaining power...and they consider females a threat to this. In the meantime, I love our [now adult] four sons and their dad. Actually, I love to sit and visit with them: I find them very interesting. Simply put - I love males and have no desire to usurp their authority. And my DH says he could not grow tomatoes without my insights, help. ;-)

If we all would concentrate on working together to build each and everybody up instead of welding power most of this conflict would be history. Just like it is in a marriage: it takes teamwork with someone taking charge. (And we are in our 40th year of marriage!)

My thoughts....
ginnyrose

As I understand the scripture forbidding females to teach men, I must conclude the writer is talking about the formal assembly of the saints,

I agree

A Story: Almost 19 years ago when I started my volunteer work at a Crises Pregnancy Center, we were told to refrain from counseling males. We were to call upon the men who would be on call to assist if a male should come in. Ok, no problem: I worked for them and will submit to their authority. The day came when I was alone at the center and a man was coming in...I called the men who were supposed to be available but could not find any: no one answered the phone! I almost panicked! What on earth am I going to do? Then the Holy Spirit quietly asked me if I would refuse to give someone a cup of water simply because he is a male?" I said, "no, I would not." He said, "Go ahead, talk to him. You have the symbol of authority on your head, now use it!" "Yes, LORD! I will obey." And I did. This marked the beginning point in which I shared the gospel with any who crossed my path, always honoring each person as a potential saint of God who is loved by Him and who must see this love demonstrated through me.

I don’t have a problem with this.

It is elusive...men are so concerned about maintaining power...and they consider females a threat to this.

I think I would rephrase that. Some men are concerned about maintaining power and some consider females a threat to this. Some men just feel they are obeying God, and can I share a truth, I do not believe men who know who they are in God are threatened by women.

I think most look at it like this:

1. It is sin to violate the Word of God
2. A woman teaching or usurping authority over a man violates the Word of God
3. Therefore, A woman teaching or usurping authority over a man is sinful

Let me share this about another woman, I had a youth group years ago and we would do things to help the community. One day we went to a museum in the city to help fix it up. Well, I happen to meet the owner an elderly woman of God (probably in her 90s). She ended up being a real good friend of mine. I would visit her every once in a while and she would share stories with me. At first I really did not understand the point (it was real deep) but I listened because we built a real good friendship. She was not a preacher, she was a prayer warrior. My point is this, those stories would come back up in significant times in my life, Oh, but they were not just stories any more they were deep pearls from the Lord.

Now this is what I call a woman of God:

KJV Mark 14:1-9 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. 2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people. 3 And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head. 4 And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made? 5 For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her. 6 And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me. 7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always. 8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying. 9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

I did a background check on this woman and every time I found her she was sitting at the feet of Jesus. Luke 10:38-42 John 11:38-42 John 12:1-8 And when you have someone who will sit at the feet of Jesus; you have someone who will be use might by God. So, this caused her to express her love for God, and notice what all the men said, “waste” but what they call a waste Jesus calls beautiful. Jesus said SHE DID WHAT SHE COULD, and I wonder how many of us could really say we did what we could? I picture in my minds eye (because it would be fair to the text) my savior being whipped on his back, yet, taking a breath and smelling this precious aroma, I picture nails going through his hands, but smelling this precious aroma, I picture him struggling to take his last breath on the cross, (when most of the men are scattered) smelling this precious aroma and saying there was one who loved me…..a woman………..

If the love of God causes a woman to do a mighty work for God, I think I would be the last to say waste.

Josh

This might be a bit disjointed, pieced together from thoughts last night and this morning.

Actually I think women have the more "envious" position of submitting to their own husbands, and of being quiet at church. Our position is naturally more humble, and more than once the Scripture says that God gives grace to the humble. That's a precious truth to me.

One that needs to be internalized on the male side as to his place. Well said.

As I understand the scripture forbidding females to teach men, I must conclude the writer is talking about the formal assembly of the saints,

Precisely! Had shelved quite a bit earlier about this whole matter and after re-reading this thread in it's entirety the whole premise of the original is off base. For one, it is almost a tirade about nothing in particular, it started out with a title and then went on to practically speak nothing about the matter at hand. Granted, there was a forthcoming injected into the middle here and have no doubt of it's sincerity, however there is also a picking up of where it left off and a continuing of misapplication as it pertains to woman teaching, in what setting(s), etc.

How do you reconcile this [apparent] contradiction? Opps! I am teaching and Quinn hates that...ok, I will quit.

It was well mentioned earlier that this is a "preaching to the choir" and by and large it is just that. In short it is much ado about nothing on the one hand and a great over emphasis by way of misplaced application on the other.

Had shelved the following last night;

Wha'dya think?

I love it!

There is something very disarming about just being honest Diane.

I wonder, should I preface my posts with a warning: Men here, beware, some teaching may be included in this post.” Should I color-code the teaching parts, delete them? Should I only post my impulsive opinions. Frankly, it gets quite tedious, and self-absorbing.

Think you hit the nail on the head here. Somewhere in the admonishen from Paul ... admittedly it can be contentious and frankly I am not sure I have heard a very accurate explanation of just exactly what he was getting at with it in it's cultural and practical concerns ... beyond the obvious. What I do mean is how is it transferable to this day?

About to make a muddle out of all of this if I am not more careful ...

The obvious would be to go into a building that is setup for teaching and preaching, or in other words "A" [i]church[/i], something almost unspoken would find something out of order if a woman was leading such a construct. On the other hand as it pertains to [i]the church[/i], the members thereof ... well, I was waiting for the verse to come forth, that you mentioned in part;

In the Spirit there is no (natural) hierarchy, no free or slave.

To backtrack a moment, [i]out of order[/i] seems the import. There is all the world of difference between order and control, I do fear that what has happened is the controlling factor has trumped the [i]reason[/i] for God's establishing a sequencing if you will. For too many males, this injunction has taken on it's own definition and meaning and is being abused by both extremes. Either a unscriptural [i]allowance[/i] skirting the order or the opposite end, that of making it more than was intended. Another example;

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Establishing order, sequence if you will.

Looking back through some commentary ...

[b]1Ti 2:12 -
Nor to usurp authority[/b] - A woman should attempt nothing, either in public or private, that belongs to man as his peculiar function. This was prohibited by the Roman laws: In multis juris nostri articulis deterior est conditio foeminarum quam masculorun,; l. 9, Pap. Lib. 31, Quaest. Foeminoe ab omnibus officiis civilibus vel publicis remotae sunt; et ideo nec judicis esse possunt, nec magistratum gerere, nec postulare, nec pro alio invenire, nec procuratores existere; l. 2, de Reg. Juris. Ulp. Lib. i. Ad Sab. - Vid. Poth. Pand. Justin., vol. i. p. 13.

“In our laws the condition of women is, in many respects, worse than that of men. Women are precluded from all public offices; therefore they cannot be judges, nor execute the function of magistrates; they cannot sue, plead, nor act in any case, as proxies.” They were under many other disabilities, which may be seen in different places of the Pandects.

[b]But to be in silence[/b] - It was lawful for men in public assemblies to ask questions, or even interrupt the speaker when there was any matter in his speech which they did not understand; but this liberty was not granted to women. See the note on 1Co_14:34, 1Co_14:35 (note).

Adam Clarke

Telling this; [i]This was prohibited by the Roman laws[/i] but not all conclusive. Being that Paul stated "[b]I[/b] ... suffer not a woman to teach" ...

Does seem to give this some background nonetheless. To break away from the theological aspects to the practical... To tell you the truth for the most part this almost seems totally unnecessary for woman such as yourself and those that partake here. It seems better understood and even appreciated for what it does mean, being in subjection as it pertains to the confines of which Paul was speaking of. Of course there is an abuse of this out there in some settings and the extrapolations taken beyond all this. But in all honesty I think it is the males that may have missed the greater part of this when it comes to order and being subjected ...

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, [u]even as Christ[/u] also loved the church, and [u]gave himself for it[/u];
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 [u]So ought men[/u] to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For [u]we[/u] are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Coming back to;

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Had left off at this point and think the following is really where I wanted to go with all this;

I must agree with Diane....whether this issue will ever be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. It is elusive...men are so concerned about maintaining power...and they consider females a threat to this.

[i]The head of every man[/i] is Christ.

[i]Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, [b]he humbled himself[/b], and became [u]obedient[/u] unto death, even the death of the cross.[/i] Phi 2:5-8

[i]Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;[/i] Heb 5:8

The whole of this life with the Lord is one of subjection and humbling of ourselves, even to the point of ...

[i]Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject [u]one to another, and be clothed with humility[/u]: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.[/i] 1Pe 5:5

Have heard so many variations on this matter of woman teaching and only find it slightly ironic that it would be our sisters straightening out the whole mess and that with grace and humility. Having gone through this whole thing here it is evident enough that what was meant was indeed in the formal assembly, not to be taken to extremes by applying it wholesale.

But to turn this back on to the males ... Was listening to David Wilkerson yesterday on a unrelated matter and something stood out very predominantly, a word;

[i]Disorder[/i]

It is a word that covers a lot of ground. It applies greatly to the mode and operation of even this forum. It applies in the spiritual life to such an extent that the natural trumps the spiritual, head knowledge, even 'biblical' knowledge can be detrimental and the cause of much disorder. One can [i]think[/i] they are taking a stand on Gods 'side' as it were all the while He may be opposing them.

What all this has to do with woman teaching men? Even outside the confines of formality there surely are many woman that ought not to be teaching at all for a multitude of reasons. Anything from pouring human notions and psychology, pragmatism, cultural preference, personal opinion sans scriptural warrant .. an endless list. But that really boils down to less
a theological doctrine snatched from a couple of misapplied verses and would venture to say it is because they just do not know their God.

The interesting 'problem' with all this is that we are not over run with woman usurping, teaching out of place, out of order, but the opposite, [i]men[/i], who ought not to be teaching at all, teaching things that they do not understand, have not studied to the point of understanding but rather voice their opinion, mixed in with a few verses, make this their doctrine and have no willingness to learn or be challenged or ... the rarity of all rarities, change their mind. To go even one step further there is a great lack of [i]authority[/i], not based on gender, not based on human wisdom, but spiritual authority, that which draws no attention to the man, needs no explanation or extrapolation, it is an evidence, an evidence often lacking, it is in kind the very essence recognized by;

Joh 7:46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one [i]having[/i] authority, and not as the scribes.

Sadly we are indeed over run with pretenders to the throne, an assimilation, puffed up in their own minds, proud, boastful ... the whole long laundry list.

It almost makes one feel that if Paul was alive to speak in our day he would be exhorting us to have the males silent in the church.

If Jesus humbled Himself and made Himself subject to the Father ... Why has it become so difficult for the males to do likewise...

One last thing here as it applies to these discussions, remember that is what they are, [i]discussions[/i] primarily, being dogmatic here will be met with many a challenge, as it ought to be.

Apologies for the length and scattered approach.

[i]... neither as lording it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves [b]ensamples[/b] to the flock.[/i] 1Pe 5:3

What an amazing word. This is spoken with wisdom and authority. I received a lot from it.

Thanks

What are your thoughts on women teachers in the school setting? (Bible College or Seminary) I remember hearing a woman teach in one of my classes (on doctrinal issues) what is the difference? Is there a difference if she teaches at a a school? Oh, she has studied for years at some of the best schools, Dr. so and so, but she is a woman. In fact, she even has her own Church, probably teaches the same thing in School or in Church.

Any comments on this?

Josh

It is like everybody wants to settle back into compromise

dorcas wrote:

Josh,

The Anglican Church in England has a lady Dean (Head) of one of its few seminaries, who was called by God to be unmarried, and to study to teach. She is a Dr of Hebrew, and did her first degree in Greek. She teaches men all the time and is the highest lay person in the Church of England. I have heard her preach (?teach), and there is no 'usurping' of authority on her part; she is delighted to submit herself to God.

How can you submit to GOD by disobeying the WORD? Forget it Trust the WORD, I look back through this thread at what natural men, or women for that matter will never understand they might say "a tirade about nothing in particular" but Narrow is the way and few be that find it.

Hell bound false teachers see the obvious then deny it. Or use traditions of men (church practices), or the teachings of men (comentaries) help deny their conviction. But if commentary would help...

Women(means woman) should not teach(means teach), or have authority(means to be accountable for making decisions) a man (man) because (reason for) woman was deceived (was sincerly convinced to believe a lie) from the begining (Ever since a woman was on the earth).

It backed up contextually everywhere, no exceptions. Even in the law where if a women made a vow, her husband could nix it. GOD loves us all, so I'm following my father, and I will do my best to stand for it, because I know it, and am a man of GOD, accountable to HIM for what I know. It will be very hard and I will encounter stiff resistance and false accusations, and blasphemy. But its better then wimping out and letting Satan's "reason me out of the truth "did GOD really say???????????????????????????????"

Taking every thought captive,
Quinn

(by the way I will not respond to every question, not everybody fears GOD, and some make it obvious, {Proverbs 14:7})

How can you submit to GOD by disobeying the WORD?

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Mike and Dorcas I appreciate the wisdom you've shared in your last few posts!

It is like everybody wants to settle back into compromise

If you are talking to me. Prove what I believe is in compromise.

Josh

One thing I've been thinking of that hasn't been mentioned, and since I've seen suggestions for talking about what women can do... I was talking with my accountability partner last Friday about this issue. She is all about prayer, and leads the prayer ministry but is trying to get a guy to take the position.I asked her what if a guy doesn't stand up and take a position of leadership, is it wrong for her to lead the college prayer ministry? She didn't exactly answer my question but she gave me some real words of wisdom. She said for women to take up positions because no men will can be a mistake, then the men feel they are no longer needed and are relieved of responsibilty... only adding to the problem of men not taking leadership these days. She said that God has made women as helpers and it is our job to encourage men and help them see THEY CAN DO IT. Often they are frightened and think they can't do it, but encouragment from women is very powerful, men need that backing, without it they often can't do it! It's amazing how much they can grow into that position of leadership with a little bit of encouragement. So instead of women trying to step up to be leaders because of a lack of men, I think it would be better if we encouraged men to do it and show them they are needed so they can grow into leaders in the church. I know I've been guilty of being angry because there are no men to lead and I will be quick to step up if no one else will, I've got to do my part and encourage the men. I think we should each look at our own lives and see how we can follow the role God has given us instead of telling others how to fill their roles. If we are truly following Christ wholeheartedly he won't let us continue in sin, and will show us how to conduct ourselves in a way pleasing to him.

Hell bound false teachers see the obvious then deny it. Or use traditions of men (church practices), or the teachings of men (comentaries) help deny their conviction.

Corrie TenBoom I am assuming you are including in your list of hell bound teachers?

Women(means woman) should not teach(means teach), or have authority(means to be accountable for making decisions) a man (man) because (reason for) woman was deceived

I am confused, men on this thread are putting out differing interpretations of the same verse. Which one is deceiving me? This is a dilemma women face, Jesus helps me with this kind of dilemma when he says you shall know a tree by it's fruit.

Wisdom that is from above is recognizable,

"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy."
James 3:17

I guess I have my answer to my dilemma in God's word.

Take care Quinn, take all the bible, let it be a mirror for you.

Mike B, thank you for your peaceable wisdom.

Timothy was taught as a man by his grandma, mother?...where does it say that exactly?

I'm looking in my Bible but I can't find it...

I can only see he is exorted to keep that faith Paul saw in those women, YOU just made a isogetical statement about the WORD (DANGEROUS if someone recieved it as factual) Boy why do you insist try to instruct me by twisting the WORD?

PLEASE don't!!!! you are precious to Jesus Christ. HE says that those who teach are subject to stricter judgment

I must stop responding to repeatative arguments that are casting shadows rather then shedding light. I know lots of poor reasoning may temp me to respond but I will only return answer with serious questions (serious meaning they found a contradiction that has not already been addressed, or they have honestly assesed the WORD, and are confussed)

GOD bless everyone who fears HIM
may every dear sister that receives HIS WORD be given grace to fulfill HIS desire for their life.

Did you list off false teachers?

Or were you saying false teacher go to hell?

I thought the latter, but...
It seems KDbutton is a woman that does not like what GOD's inspired warning or the way your literal acceptance of it makes it hard for her ears to be itched by the clever speech, and persuasive word's of another subtle, crafty man.

It so sad when people who love the lie, and hate the truth, they try so hard to convince everybody how they don't really understand, I see gay men do it all the time when I appeal to them preching the love of Christ.

Worse yet I was listening to Art Katz's teaching on false prophets, and how he identifies them by their "sentimenality" that is so concerned over peoples feelings,

surely also they deny truth that real love will sound the alarm is there is trouble.

I believe the best fruit is love, that is willing to be rejected, and despised.

GOD bless you brother for being one of the only men I have seen really try to be a hero, and protect women, as they flatter, mis represent you and twist your words.

Narrow is the way, few be that find it

Fear of the LORD is the begining of wisdom.

thanks brother berean check this out

What is true Charisma?

Judaism teaches that the path to genuine charisma is B'anava - "with humility." But does humility really generate charisma?! Don't we usually imagine the humble person as meek, gentle and barely noticeable? Biblical Humility is not an inferiority complex or a lack of self-esteem. Humility means "living with the reality that nothing matters except doing the right thing before Hashem."

The humble person is totally dedicated to the pursuit of truth. And because his self-esteem is not dependent on approval from others, he can choose the right thing even when it's not popular or politically correct.

An arrogant person, on the other hand, is mostly concerned with his own ego, his own pride, his own money. So even though he appears friendly and charming, he's really manipulating things to suit his selfish needs.

"Arrogance" = I'm all that counts.

"Humility" = What's greater than me is what counts.

Though he appears self-confident, the arrogant person is actually inhibited from expressing his true self. He can never truly "be himself" for his is constantly preoccupied with how he looks to others?

Humility is freedom.

When you are only concerned about truth, and living by it, then you are free to express yourself in the most genuine and uninhibited way. Your natural beauty shines through and that, my friends, is real charisma! The Torah tells us that the most humble person of all time - Moses - was, not coincidentally, also the most charismatic.

He doesn't have to answer every insult...now, that's freedom! He rises above arguments and instead focuses on Hashem rather than on his opponents.. He knows his place.

Josh I was not addressing you, or any person specifically, but the reader who owns that thought, I appreciate your slowness to cave into pressure to conform to this world, keep running the race brother, :-)

1 Timothy 2:12 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Why is this so hard to understand? It is not permitted. If you really believe you do not have to obey this verse; than rip it out of your Bible, because you might as well if you do not obey it.

Yet, beware………

Revelation 22:19 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This is the problem with this: if you do not believe (1Tim2:12) applies to you, you better have a good reason. (If you practice it you should be able to back it up by the Scriptures)

1.\tShow how somehow this speaks directly to Timothy or a group that does not apply to you.
2.\tShow how you are some super exception to the rule.
3.\tShow how this does not mean what it says.

In other words you are on dangerous grounds.

You should also be able to refute this basic syllogism.

Major premise. It is wrong to disobey the Word of God (Bible) Universal truth/all agree

Minor premise. A woman teaching or usurping authority over man is disobeying the Word of God (Bible) 1Tim2:12

Therefore. A woman teaching or usurping authority over the man is wrong.

Paul does not permit women to do two things in the church: to teach or to have authority over men. Paul does not forbid women to teach other women (Titus 2:4–5) or children (2 Tim. 1:5; 3:14–15). A woman must not teach a man. Here public teaching is in view, not personal activity (such as Priscilla and Aquila teaching Apollos [Acts 18:26]). Paul also does not permit a woman to have authority over a man. She must not exercise leadership or rule over men who are appointed by God to have that headship function in the church and home (cf. 1 Cor. 11:3, 8, 9; Eph. 5:23).

Is this that complicated?

Josh

Elwell, W. A. (1996, c1989). Vol. 3: Evangelical commentary on the Bible. Baker reference library (1 Ti 2:11). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Book House.

It seems KDbutton is a woman that does not like what GOD's inspired warning or the way your literal acceptance of it makes it hard for her ears to be itched by the clever speech, and persuasive word's of another subtle, crafty man.

Berean, "Whatsoever doth make manifest is light."

I am sincere Berean, which of the men on this thread is the subtle crafty man?

How is a woman to discern when men themselves can't agree, except through the Word which tells her how.

By the way I have noticed how my question about Corrie TenBoom is not answered and that speaks volumes to me.

I just want to add how deeply I regret that this thread had continued and that I have continued it but I will leave with this especially to the sisters,

Be obedient to God's Word, (all the Word) be careful to discern whether wisdom is from above or not (you know how to recognize it), be careful to remain in constant fervent prayer and the Word so you will know when the Word is subtly misused to usurp the authority of the Holy Spirit over a walk in Christ. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord. Pray that God in His mercy will send a great wave of deep repentance for usurpings of every sort and kind.

One thing I am grateful for Quinn, this has helped me stay more alert and to seek God to walk circumspectly as I pray for revival.
I pray that you will find peace and wisdom as you spend regular time with God in the Prayer Closet and the full counsel of His Word. I pray that you will always be in regular fellowship with a Spirit led pastor so you will also be under authority and I pray God will heal your heart. love (not sentiment) KDB

Quinn,

I am weary of much of this and I think a lot of it carries over just from the very first instance here; What compelled you to come in here in the first place with something as volatile as this, especially as the way you couched it with a great deal of "People say" and then go on to basically pontificate to everyone here your commentary? Who was this addressed to? Everyone or no one in particular? And who did you think might take possible umbrage at all this having deposited it here in such fashion? That you later on attempted to straighten out some of the ladies may only be partialy telling of your motivation.

This is where you got off on the wrong footing despite the repeated efforts asked of you to become more familiar with your surroundings. The reason you are and will continue to be met with many challenges is because of a certain brashness that comes across as arrogant and ignorant. Let me qualify this a bit. Having great zeal and notable appreciation for the scriptures as inerrant, the final answer of all disputing, God's authoritative word, all these things and more is indeed noble and worthy of much praise. However, you are not alone nor a lone island amongst those here who believe similarly. For your consideration again, I bring back your words from the original;

Fellowship should include reasoning through the doctrine of the Apostles, as well prevent disputes from being dismissible as divisive challenges of authority. That is a lazy copout of those who are not fit to contend for The Faith, rather some seek as little resistance as possible, and use authority to intimidate submission, rather then enlist faith, reason, and HOLY Spirit.

Think about it. This is laced with presumptive accusation for one. How does it apply if it was to be read by turning the accusation back on to your own self? Who is determining a 'fit' or a 'not fit'? And what of your own resistance to others here more knowledgeable than yourself? What of the too easily dismissed argument of;

Hell bound false teachers see the obvious then deny it. Or use traditions of men (church practices), or the teachings of men (commentaries) help deny their conviction. But if commentary would help...

Are you not finding it strange that what you are in fact doing throughout, first by bringing this post to bear and then with follow up is indeed 'commentary'? And the bitterness interwoven ...

Moreover, to dismiss commentary as but 'teachings of men' is a great leap into a very dark chasm. Dear brother, some of the very most helpful things to all our understanding is prior commentary of men of God who had devoted their very lives in great effort to try and understand all that the scripture taught, meant, the historical, cultural surroundings, difficult passages ... Is it not by and large a great effort of most honest commentary to just try and [i]understand[/i]? Is this not the whole point of us all and the primary function of something of this nature, this 'forum'?

A definition for you;

[b]Forum
FO'RUM, n.[/b] [L. See Fair.]

1. In Rome, a public place, where causes were judicially tried, and orations delivered to the people; also, a market place. Hence,

2. A tribunal; a court; any assembly empowered to hear and decide causes; also, jurisdiction.

Interestingly, this is a 'old' definition if you will, taken from Noah Websters 1828 dictionary. To couple that with a more modern or continued sense of defining;

[b]fo·rum[/b] (fôr'əm, fōr'-)
n., pl. fo·rums also fo·ra (fôr'ə, fōr'ə).

1.

a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.

b. A public meeting place for open discussion.

c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.

2. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.

3. A court of law; a tribunal.

Of all these, to try and pin it down is to assume far too much, a very unfortunate misunderstanding that would place a wrong emphasis on "experts" rather than on a more properly understood emphasis of [i]open discussion[/i].

This is where an application of teaching can be misconstrued, especially as it pertains to woman and to the sisters that are contributing to the [i]discussion[/i] [u]here[/u].

The long exhausting point is that IF we were to gather all of us to a building, to a home, men and woman alike to practice [i]formally[/i] all the activities of worship, communion, prayer and preaching I am very much convinced by the long participation of the sisters here that contribute to these [i]discussions[/i] that there would be no issue whatsoever as to their rightly understood submission. Note that that is vastly different from [i]subservience[/i] which is where this whole matter goes 'off the rails' to borrow a accurate application from one of our brothers here.

But this is a very [i]informal[/i] gathering that we have here and the lines may be often blurred between what is an opinion, a contribution, an observation, a question and that which constitutes a 'teaching'. To say that there has never been cases where the women have overstepped these boundaries would be dishonest, but I am speaking in generalities to those that have carried on and tarried for quite some time with us. And that is the continual effort that I am trying to get across to you here.

You must understand that amongst us are pastors of great wisdom and tremendous longevity. Some with as much as 40 plus years of walking with the Lord. Others less and others even less than you or I. But I can also express great appreciation for some that are quite 'young' in the faith who have a grip of understanding of spiritual matters that have left me practically speechless, as young in natural age as 14! Some here, that we did not even discover until far later on being in their late teens that seemed to have the knowledge and perspective on spiritual matters that surpassed many of us. Of the later, I am not speaking of pastors, but of a whole cross section of Brethren. It is just amazing the discoveries and the variety of the Lords ways as He deposits His truth into these earthly vessels. Realize that you are in the midst of those who contribute from all over the entire planet.

I am going to great lengths here to just ask you to consider how and what you state here in light of all of this. Would spare you much pain by measuring and humbling yourself in light of the witness that surrounds you. The reason I may be seemingly hard on you is due to all these factors. To come in charging and vocal is going to be met with similar challenge. I highly doubt you are as prideful as you come across, but you you come across this way nonetheless.

I do want to express an olive branch here if you are willing. Being reproofed can have all kinds of ramifications and misunderstandings but it also can be the best thing that ever happens to us. It is redundant, but it happened very early on here to myself (and still does) and I am ever so grateful for it. If you want to be forceful in your opinion you must be ready for a backlash as reciprocal. But by and large we are a forgiving lot, as quick to put things away and move on, forgetting the former matters of contention and gaining even better an appreciation of each other. Many here that have come across quite strongly at first even to the stressed point of possible removal, later on developed to become great saints in our midst. It is a mighty struggle of discernment for the moderators here in deciphering when enough is enough and when to allow patience to run it's course. We and I especially have erred greatly in this, oftentimes getting too caught up in matters, not being especially prayerful, not heeding;

Jam 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

But that also does not skirt responsibility and accountability, that which is also indebted to all that traverse these discussions. There has been a great deal of patience shown you here and it is also a warning to how you conduct yourself amongst everyone, comments like this are not yours to dictate;

I must stop responding to repeatative arguments that are casting shadows rather then shedding light. I know lots of poor reasoning may temp me to respond but I will only return answer with serious questions (serious meaning they found a contradiction that has not already been addressed, or they have honestly assesed the WORD, and are confussed)

You are a [i]guest[/i], do not forget that. I strongly suggest you divulge yourself and re-read the outlines and suggestions in the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=13&3176]Welcome & Intro[/url] section, just as well to listen to some of the vast array of messages available here. Allow yourself to have your perspective challenged and even altered by listening to someone far more advanced in spiritual matters speak, be it by article, by sermon, by even your own Brethren. I am telling you brother, I have had my own misconceptions so radically altered by all this that it has to this very moment caused a great deal of things to go into the very large pool of abeyance or as Ravenhill so eloquently put it in his later years, [i]"The more I know, the more I realize I don't know[/i]".

As a matter of fact, give this a viewing;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1702]An Interview with Leonard Ravenhill (video)[/url]

If your situation doesn't allow you to view it, here is the audio version;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1701]An Interview with Leonard Ravenhill[/url]

Lastly and was mentioned at the beginning here, I am weary of all this and you have been shown a whole lot of patience, much more than some who have been just as unfortunately cut off for similar infractions, your other thread on Islam a testament to this. That is in large part due to your forthcoming about your present state of difficulty and the honesty shown there. But you again are pushing the limits of patience with your comments, don't make us do that which we would most rather not. Don't overlook just how difficult it is to allow something like this to be presented openly like this. It is not intended to produce shame and the struggle is always whether it is better to do these things in private. But being that the expressions and comments are public it is just as much a neccessity that they be addressed similarly. If there wasn't a great undercurrent of brotherly love binding this altogther it wouldn't be worth the effort, it is far easier to just dismiss, but there is something that will not allow me to do that just yet.

If you can heed it as if from Pauls own lips;

[i]For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter. Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you.

Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all.[/i] 2Co 7:8-13

Much have been said so far, and I too have taken my position on this issue, and that is, to remain silent and let men teach in the Church ( The believing Body of Christ), during a formal and solemn gathering among brethren.

Corrie Ten Boon, and I'm sure, along with numerous female evangelists or missionaries, were/are/will be used by God to witness and even teach and preach the gospel in the absence of the availability and suitability of men, according to God's good will and good pleasure. Praise God for God's work with these ladies ! Now then, are we to follow their examples or to obey God's specific instructions through the Apostle!

I told this story several months back on another thread, let me tell it here perhaps. Again, bear with me, I don't write or express very well. A missionary woman was preaching to a group of men and women in a romote area, for a period of time, some men were introduced to the Bible and came to faith via God's grace through the work of this woman. One day, this new but well-learned convert stood up when he discovered where Paul said " women...not teach..", he pointed this out to this missionary lady, she then happily sat down, and yielded the teaching to the man/men from then on. ( That's a true calling, she obeyed, both to stand up , and to sit down, so to speak !!)

I think this is a good story, for it tells me that , yes, God can and does use woman at His (not our) own discretion and as He (not we) sees fit. Our job is, man or woman, to obey, regardless. . However, God will never never never contradict His own Words or prescriptions for the order or Church assembly either. Just like a whole host of other so-called"issues" in the Bible ( not to me personally , I don't really see any issues in It at all, it's really all about obedience on the readers' parts).

To sum up, if God were to pick me up and place me in a remote village in China ( which I often think to do so some day) where He thinks most suitable, I probably must obey and go, to preach or to teach..until.. a new group is established, and knowledge is passed on to the brothers, though be very watchful of my attitude so that, I will teach without appearing to exercises inordinate authority over God's authority (The Bible)

This is a problem in Christendom, even in the present evangelical circles, many women have crossed the line, many women have become bossy, covetous, licentious,...we have women teaching and preaching in inappropriate attires (mini-skirts and plastered with cosmetics ???...)(Read Isaiah 3) in broad day light, things are getting grotesquely out of hand. I for one do encourage, especially in the western world where there are all too many talented, gifted, godly men already in the Body, women must obey Paul in the Word, during solemn assembly, let the godly men teach !!

As for the female theological academians, I have no problem with their roles as much, in my mind, teaching in that sort of arena is just a profession. One studies, one gets credentials, one teaches,....to me,that's the hierarchy of the education profession. It won't be fair if men and women students work hard , while the women get denied of professorship in the end...and so on..

Edit: Sharing/Prophesying/Praying: in this manner, even "teaching" younger men in private settings, when again, godly men are not available, that's not abusing authority.God is not a God of confusion really, He is not going to put a woman out of place and out of His design of things, never, never. Look at all the exceptional cases where women were used very closely, eg Ten Boon, ( her setting, her persona, her faith, her age, her everything, ...) Do we see a lot of her around these days? Did God use Ten Boom to usurp His authority or Did God use Ten Boom to express His mercy? My point being, even if we want to use other women's life testimonies to exempt ourselves from Paul's ( The apostle who establishes the Body for gentiles) teaching, we must examine each individual cases ever so careful.

There is no point to look around and say, so and so does such and such, so it's must be okay. It must be , do I obey or not? Do I love God enough to obey first, then sacrifice, (...better obey than sacrifice...), as the individual member of the true assembly. If the consideration is such that, oh, I'm so gifted or she is so talented or educated ...well.. who needs the Bible,why bother even teaching It...be the worldlings, adopt their ways, indulge their thinking..There is no point at all, to adopt the world's ways of thinking and 'serving' God, in my mind, is called playing church. (Edit: challenge to us 'educated' women : If I had a ThD in New Testament, in the gathering of the Body, would I be willing to obey God's Word In Paul's epistles to sit there and let an "un-credentialized" yet godly and knowledgeable brother teach me the New Testament, week after week, year after year?, sorry to report to you all, where I live, if I were the "ThD", I would have been called out to teach other men long since.

If God had wanted women to teach men in a godly assembly of the Body, would HE not say so, or would HE at least disallow Paul to write down those verses to women? I know, I met preachers sided with women so far that....I can go on forever here.

too long..hope no presumptions here..

Guess the title of this thread should have been a little more clearer, should have been called "Woman should not teach men in Church" because women teach men in schools and other different trade classes all across the world.

I have not keyed in much on this thread because anytime you have a thread like this it is going to create some strife if you don't believe me read this thread. :-).

I know the Mods. here are the very best I have ever seen on any forum in my life and are pretty generous to let some of these threads go on as for as they do, and trust me I totally respect their decisions and I am not questioning them now.

If we all go back to the original reason this forum was started for the abundance and quality of information here and download and listen to a lot of the sermons and read a lot of the material here we would not be as interested in these type discussions, and when we do have these discussions we would all would be more geared as for as our knowledge and how to find a happy medium in our posts without causing any strife.

I have been around Christians for over 50 years I started going to Church at 5 years old and I have yet to find many that change their positions on what they believe or feel the scripture reads, rather it totally scriptural or opinion they are sticking to their opinions or beliefs no matter what, so this is why it's so hard to have these type discussions.

I just left my Bible study because the teacher there everything he said was right and written in stone no matter what the study was about or the scriptures covered, this cause strife and you will never get "anything" accomplished for Christ while in the strife mode.

I think when we all get back to the basics here and read scriptures as a little child and not try and dissect them there will be less strife here, because they are going to minister to "each" of us differently because if not it would not be called the "Living Word" of God because I have never seen anywhere in the Word we will all read and interrupt all the scripture the same, and not only that this must be mass confusion for all the new Christians or folks that are considering Jesus Christ soon. So are we here to preach to the choir
are to be salt and light? :-)

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Just thinking out loud, but what are we to do with this????? Act 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was was one of the seven; and abode with him.
Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

I suppose we should just overlook it as an isolated incident :-( , but than we have to really gut and cut out scripture as well as Hebrew understanding of the function and giftings in the OT as well as the NT,

Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher: she was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity;
Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Just wondering if she was teaching here???Probably quoting scripture from the OT about the messiah.

The conclusion is that God Himself can't move one steeped in traditions of men. God changes not , neither does His methods. To change midstream in the NT about the womans functions within the giftings in the church would be inconsistant with God's nature and therefore undo the whole of the OT Character. There is of course boundries which should be observed, but not for the sake of exclusion, or bindings, but for the sake of accountability, headship, leadership.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:25-29 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and

This is referring to salvation, not teaching.

Just thinking out loud, but what are we to do with this????? Act 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.

Scripture does not forbid women from giving a prophetic utterance.

Notice how Philip’s daughters did not instruct, teach, usurp authority over Paul, (even though they prophesied) if you keep reading the text you will see how it was a man that came to Paul Acts 21:10-11 10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. 11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

I suppose we should just overlook it as an isolated incident

No just rightly divide it.

Just wondering if she was teaching here???Probably quoting scripture from the OT about the messiah.

“Probably” is not good to base a doctrine on. It does not say she was teaching. Yet, back in this Scripture they are still under the law, (Which is not the dealings of the Church) and Paul say concerning the law: 1 Corinthians 14:34 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, AS ALSO SAITH THE LAW.

God changes not, neither does His methods.

If his methods do not change can Bob go sacrifice a cow in his backyard for his sins?

Josh

1 Corinthians 10:23 "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

1 Corinthians 10:23 "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

Let’s admit, regardless of gender, we (generally speaking) have been trying to make God’s kingdom our OWN way, and do church in our OWN strength. We have been speaking our OWN words. We have been choosing our OWN leaders. We have been creating our OWN constitutions, and traditions. Let’s admit, our church has a form of godliness without power. Like in Samuel’s day, the voice of God is rarely heard in most of our churches. We are NOT hearing from God (the prophetic voice). We are a headless being, staggering in the dark. And so most of our teachers are severed from the Head - explaining Biblical words in their own reasonings. And it's not working. We, as the modern church, are dying, and people are going to hell.

The church, in its present condition does NOT WANT to hear a word from the Lord! Therefore, generally speaking, the prophetic voice has been silenced, just like Jesus was silenced many times in his days on earth. No wonder we don’t know what prophesy really means. If we did we would welcome it as a dying man would welcome a healing balm. We would know that it is the life-giving word of the Lord.

Joel’s prophesy was about both men and women HEARING God, and proclaiming the word of the Lord to the people! It was about being connected to the Head. That is the New Covenant Church!

There has been a lot of smoke, but now I hear a very quiet voice arising from it saying, “Be silent, ALL of you! Now, hear what I have to say to you.”

We each must learn to hear what God is saying to us PERSONALLY, before we can know what he may be saying THROUGH us to others, including our churches. We all must learn to walk in obedience to the Spirit. We all must come to the place where it is Christ who lives through us. Then we can function as the true Body of Christ.

To the extent that we allow God to have his rightful authority in our lives, this gender issue becomes a non-issue. After all, remember, God has promised his Spirit to BOTH men and women. That means that he has called all of us into his New Life, in which the Spirit governs us all! Can we trust God to be God in the lives of each other, to silence and to enable to speak when HE wishes? That should work out for good, should it not?

After all, as MrBillPro’s post reminds us: We will wish nothing but the good of others. We ( just like our Lord) will not be willing that any should perish.

“You (both male and female) are not our own, you were bought at a price.” 1 Cor. 6:20 Diane

This is the good FOR ALL.

1. What does the Scripture Say?
2. What does the Scripture Mean?
3. How is it Applied?

I know many times we try to spiritualize things, but violating the Scripture is flat out wrong.

Josh

God changes not, neither does His methods.
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If his methods do not change can Bob go sacrifice a cow in his backyard for his sins?

I guess Bob just never came to faith in Jesus' once and for all sacrifice, the entire book of Hebrews addresses persons as ole' Bob.

Just wondering if she was teaching here???Probably quoting scripture from the OT about the messiah.
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“Probably” is not good to base a doctrine on. It does not say she was teaching. Yet, back in this Scripture they are still under the law, (Which is not the dealings of the Church) and Paul say concerning the law: 1 Corinthians 14:34 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, AS ALSO SAITH THE LAW

Just thinking out loud, but what are we to do with this????? Act 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scripture does not forbid women from giving a prophetic utterance.

Notice how Philip’s daughters did not instruct, teach, usurp authority over Paul, (even though they prophesied) if you keep reading the text you will see how it was a man that came to Paul Acts 21:10-11 10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. 11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

The Word of God as recorded by Luke didn't mention the specifics as to what was uttered by Philip's daughters but it was noted that they did speak and that by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, prophetically. It probably was Agabus who came latter and gave a confirming sign to Paul. That would be consistant with HOW God works.

Galatians 3:25-29 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and

This is referring to salvation, not teaching

Salvation, yes. But it lays down a principle of equality as to how heaven and God our Father views those who possess salvation through Christ Jesus. That equality must prove out in practical application in the church as well as out of the church.

1Cor14/1Cor11/1Tim etc... these refer to order, submission (i believe i refered to it as headship), conduct with in the service proper, its addresses dress code, and if you look closely you can see that indeed it had to be addressed because for some reason the women present were missusing their new found liberty and interupting, and usurping, and bring attention to themselves, in the "midst" of the teaching or while the teaching was going on.
In 1Cor14 they were exercising gifts out of order, to include tongues in an unknown language and prophesying out of order. I do concede to the principle of the matter at hand but disagree with a stringent interpetation of the literal application of these verses to every church service world wide.

MrBillPro, yeah, strife from scripture debates never amounts to any good, remembering of what Lloyd-Jones said in one of his books yesterday, in light of how he was telling Christians not to debate over Bible, to the extent not even to talk about the Bible, rather to obey and live It...along the same thought,I hope that I'm not doing the same, (Crsschk, hope i'm not being some spiritual surgeon or church fixer or self-appointed prophet here..delete this if you do see this in me please) but in the spirit in sharing how I understand these matters, lest I bring more contention and strife which destroy so much unity and glory of His Lordship.

[color=0000CC]1 Corinthians 10:23 "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. [/color]

This verse, in context, relates to traditions in food and drink.

Sin, is not permissible :), and might I assert, is always destructive! To disobey Paul's command in Church order( unless one does not view Paul as one of authority.. I have met many Christians that do not take Paul's words seriously at all)will thereby considered sinful in this area.

In the context of Church order:

I Cor 14:
[color=0000CC]33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37[b]If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.[/b]

38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40Let all things be done decently and in order[/color]

From 2 Thess 3, in another context, one sees the solemness of his authority

[color=0000CC]14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, [i]note that man[/i], and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as brother...[/color]

yeah, feel that we might possibly consider these words a bit..........for His Church sake.

I guess Bob just never came to faith in Jesus' once and for all sacrifice, the entire book of Hebrews addresses persons as ole' Bob.

You are right at the time he never came into faith. He had picked up a bible and read that he needed to sacrifice a cow for his sins. He had been walking around Israel for ten years looking for a temple. One day as Joe (the Christian) found out that Bob thought he had to sacrifice a cow; Joe said God will no longer take your cow for a sacrifice, and then Joe opened up his mouth and preached Jesus. He got saved and ….

Circular reasoning here, law--than you quote Paul. Please clarify this. BTW--

My point was this: this truth had already been established even in the law. Paul makes this clear, AS ALSO SAITH THE LAW.

Have you every heard an Jewish woman prophesy, I mean one who isn't a christian?

Who is not a Christian, No I don’t tend to listen to false prophesy.

It probably was Agabus

Come on let’s get rid of the “probably”.

Josh

mamaluk wrote:
1 Corinthians 10:23 "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. [/color]

This verse, in context, relates to traditions in food and drink.

Sin, is not permissible :), and might I assert, is always destructive!

You read way to much into that scripture, it's not saying that just because everything is permissible
that's it's right or wrong, I interrupt it to say "everything is permissible" meaning anything goes if you want it to, but if the consequences of what you do includes sin it will not be beneficial, but there may be some things are permissible and we do
without sin that will have good consequences this is the way I read this.

mamaluk wrote:
"This verse, in context, relates to traditions in food and drink."

I don't know how you determined this can you elaborate a little please.

2 Samuel 6:6-7 6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. 7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.

This Scripture comes to mind, Uzzah put forth his hand of the ark (maybe he thought he was helping, maybe he thought they were not doing good enough) nevertheless God judged him because he disobeyed the Word of God.

Maybe some women are thinking they can help by teaching men or maybe they think men are not doing good enough…….

Just a thought,
Josh

MrBillPro,

Sorry if I confused you.The context was not "eat and drink" per se, but of the distinctions in fellowships, knowledge, meats and conscience in regards to the Jewish and Gentile tradition.

I was only hoping that the context within which the verse (v23)you quoted in light of Church order in other chapters to be considered. I also like what you said about calling this thread "Women should not teach men [i]in Church[/i]". Yeah, that might work better, by narrowing the scope of the whole matter would definitely help clarifying everyone's thoughts or views.

edited the quote (partial Ch 10), best to read the entire chapter or even previous chapters, sorry

Edit: I am editing this a bit because I didn't like the term 'relative statements'. Also, I am no expert and have no clear cut answers myself. Only adding this lest someone thinks I am trying to be an expert:-)

Just a few more thoughts to add to this thread ;-)

What do we make of other statements Paul made such as: 1 Cor 11:14 says that a man is dishonoured or shamed if he has long hair. Was this an absolute truth for all time, for all men everywhere? If so, how can you explain God's telling Samson to let his hair grow long as a sign of his special calling? What about Jesus and the disciple's hair length, was it short?

And what about Paul's statement here: If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 1 Cor.11:6

Are these 'rules' dealing with the time, place and culture in which they were living in? So as not to offend or cause others to stumble?

Another interesting note: Loren Cunningham (founder of Youth With a Mission and has released thousands of men and women into the mission field and into the ministry) met and became good friends with Duncan Campbell. As we know, Campbell witnessed some of the most dramatic revivals of history in the Hebrides of Scotland during the 50's. Eventually Loren C. and Campbell traveled together through the Hebrides in ministry together.

Loren relates this story:

"Brother Campbell was invited to many churches to tell about the revival in the Hebrides. He was invited to one particular church in London known for it's legalism. After the meeting, the elders took Brother Campbell aside. They were disappointed. Why hadn't Brother Campbell told about the most dramatic move of God that had just happened on the Isle of Barvas?

Brother Campbell replied, "I didn't think you'd want me to tell you that story." They asked why, since some of the most exciting things of the Hebrides Revival had occured there. Brother Campbell answered, "I didn't tell you about that place because I was not the one God used there. My two colleagues whom God used were women."

"Oh..." The elders grew silent, then the head elder laughed. "Well, if God used a jackass once, then I guess He can use a woman." The elder meant it as a joke to break the tension, but the underlying message was truly sad.

(Loren Cunningham "Why Not Women?")

In His grace, Chanin

Diane wrote. You. both male and female are not your own, You are bought at a price. Cor. 6:20..

Amen Diane, we were all bought by His Precious Blood.
We need to obey His Word, and do what He commands us.
Nell

moreofHim wrote:
Also, I am no expert and have no clear cut answers myself.

Hey I sure am not any expert either :-? ,the Lord does not expect each of us to become biblical scholars and masters of the original languages, and certainly does not want us to settle for the views of so called experts, that are both imperfect and subject to opinion. This doubly enforces the need to seek the Lord, who promises His own spirit to guide us (John.14:26), on all important matters.

In 1960 at the age of 67, Corrie Ten Boom answered some questions put to her on women and preaching:

[i]Question: Have you ever dealt with the difficutly that some people do not like it when women speak in public?[/i]

No, because I do not go where I am not allowed to speak.

[i]Question: But do you yourself not have the feeling that you are being disobedient? Paul says in Tim.2:11-12 and in !Cor. 14:34-35 that women must be silent.[/i]

Yes, Paul does say that, but we must understand what these words mean and what they do not mean. We must give them their place, of course, in the present age. Peter gave us a sketch of the present age in the words of Joel: "I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your Sons and daughters will prophesy". Now what is prophesy? First Cor. 14:3 says it is "stengthening, encouragement and comfort."

"...IN Acts 2:18 we read, "Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days and they will prophesy." Their is no distinction of race in this verse; the power is to any devoted servant of Christ, Jew or Gentile, male or female. The 120 on the first day of Pentacost included certain women and they were all filled with the Spirit and spoke languages they had never learned.

In 1 Cor. 11:5, we find that women prophesied in the assembly, and this was not fobidden by Paul but merely regulated, the covering of the head being commanded. This verse also tells that women prayed in the Church.

[i]Question: But what about 1 Cor. 14:34-35, where it is clearly said that women must keep silent in the churches?[/i]

I believe that this must be interpreted in the light of these other scriptures and not in conflict with them. Here is meant silence whilst another is speaking. ("Let them ask their own husbands at home.") Miriam, Deborah, Anna, a prophetess-- these are good company for me. And Psalm 68:11 in the original gives them and me encouragement: "The women that publish good things are a great host." There is one thing that a man or woman cannot do without: the anointing of the Holy Spirit that equips us to speak for God (see Acts 2:18)[b] "Open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest." [/b](John 4:35)

(taken from Life Lessons from The Hiding Place)

It seems to me that the last verse "Open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest." says it all. Why are believers arguing about why or why not women when the rest of the world is dying. Let us all (women and men) burn with a passion to reach out to the lost, to the brokenhearted, to the slaves of this world- in any way we can.

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations..." (or in the KJV-"Go ye therefore, and [b]teach[/b] all nations...")-- the words of Jesus comes to mind. Was this a command for men alone?

Just more thoughts...

In Him, Chanin

bartle wrote:
Sometimes,when I read or interact with others on this forum, I am filled with such hope and joy, other times I get filled with pessmism at how hopelessly divided we all seem to be.

"As we are One"

neil

I sometimes feel the same way at Church. :-)

bartle wrote:

There's a well known female evangelist, who has a taste for big mansions, expensive cars and private jets. I don't pay any attention to her ministry, not because she's a woman, but because she doesn't have the annointing, she loves the bright and shiny things of the world too much.

There's a male evangelist with a big church and bright smile, immaculate suits, and he preaches in what used to be a sports arena, he preaches a la la la twinkie gospel in the bowels of empire, I don't heed him, because he doesn't have the annointing. How do I know? Because the Spirit within me testifies to this.
neil

You forgot about the one that can touch someone on the forehead that has been paralyzed for life and can now instantly walk, that has the 5 million dollar home says he needs it to entertain. :-(

It seems to me that the last verse "Open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest." says it all. Why are believers arguing about why or why not women when the rest of the world is dying. Let us all (women and men) burn with a passion to reach out to the lost, to the brokenhearted, to the slaves of this world- in any way we can. "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations..." (or in the KJV-"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations...")-- the words of Jesus comes to mind. Was this a command for men alone?

I would think that means everyone! Amen brother! :-)

Laura,

I would think that means everyone! Amen brother!

I'm a sister, but thanks all the same :-)

In Him, Chanin

Glad ole' Bob found Christ!
As to the Law in reguards to women, there's a little story found in the book of Johsua about some certain sisters, a one Noah and her sisters by name who were given equal inheritance rights along with the men of thier perticular tribe. In the Law if you search out the scripture, you can find all sorts of ministry that was shared. But when it came to the more physical parts the seems to be reserved for men. The reading of the torah and temple ministry also was reserved for men, but that has as much to do with family structure and order as it does men just simply teaching for teachings sake. In the NT church the role of women has changed. I kinda feel as if you may have an ax to grid, maybe some female pastor (personally I don't feel women should pastor churches as the head of such) has hurt you in some way, or something has negatively influenced you to this direction, be assured it isn't the Word of God or the Holy Spirit that has done such though.

Who is not a Christian, No I don’t tend to listen to false prophesy.

You hear false prophesy everyday, you just don't have ears to hear and reconize it, that's all.
But I wouldn't be so quick to discount my earlier statement, in all you getting, get knowledge.

Come on let’s get rid of the “probably

You were so fast to discount what Philips daughters had to speak (prophesy) to Paul and Luke and company, they just couldn't have spoken directly to these GODLY MEN :-( , I mean heaven forbid, but when Agabus came the heavens open and God speaks!!! Your reasoning doesn't even follow scriptural principles, you know---in the mouth of two or more witness let every word be established. That goes with prophesy, no doubt they may have sat in judgement on that and other spoken prophesies during that time period. Look at the principles that govern prophesy, there is no lone ranger, Not even in Elijahs day.

I'm a sister, but thanks all the same

Ooops! I'm sorry Chanin... all this time I thought you were a man! :-?

I am reminded of the testimonies of men like Watchman Nee who openly spoke of the elderly woman that taught him so much about respecting elders and leaders and Francis Fenelon who was much instructed by Madam Guyon in many matters. I could name many more. I do not believe either of these ladies tried to outshine or usurp over these men. They simply shared what was in their hearts and these men felt they recieved benefit from it.

God spoke through a donkey once. If a donkey spoke wisdom we would do well to listen, it might save our lives.

Crsschk, do you break dance? I love your style brother. You are very eloquent and persausive in your words, and thoughts, very complete in your grasp on multiple subjects of thought. But I feel like I see one side of you that reasons well, and I want to agree, but then you address things like what seems to be another face, and I am disappointed….

Yes men should reason together thru apostles doctrine in this assembly, but I won’t be compelled to reason with a brick wall (a group of hard hearts) over and over again, and I will apply Proverbs 14:7 to those who imply “all things are legal…arguments.” Just like I would not answer questions by saying “I can do all things through Christ…”
like

“I have been raised on the truth that 'faith is a response to the word of God'. Can you agree?”

I love, and learn from the serious evaluation by those that seek to really submit to HIM, I even gleaned from you discussion. As for the underlined theme if I get "up-ity" you'll lock the thread and cast me out, I hear you. But I can not help but to respond reasonable yet matter of factly, and honestly. I just want to speak the truth in love (real love)

Only one commentary has no risk of destructive heresies we are warned not to be deceived by. That is the commentary of the WORD by it self, law to prophets to gospel, to epistle and so on. I have never read any other commentary in my 7yrs as a Christian, there are some sitting next to me, by my apocrypha, and Josephus but I don’t read them, I still busy reading another BOOK.

Kdbutton maybe this will speak volumes more like it did to me.

Corrie Ten Boom said

“Yes, Paul does say that, but we must understand what these words mean and what they do not mean. We must give them their place, of course, in the present age. Peter gave us a sketch of the present age in the words of Joel: "I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your Sons and daughters will prophesy". Now what is prophesy? First Cor. 14:3 says it is "stengthening, encouragement and comfort."

Maybe she was teaching women, but it WAS false teaching,(definate point to apply 1Timothy 2:14) as for going to hell I won’t say either way, I would guess not…otherwise “who then can be saved” I am sure if she’s at the beama she’ll suffer loss for it, as much as you or any others are led astray by it. Because “present age” private interpretations are “jive turkey meat” Last days dispensationalism does not use the Old Testiment
prophets to contradict a post-pentacost ordinance...sorry Corrie (WRONG)

Everybody in the thead that likes to add to the WORD to make it more…”reasonable?” is losing ground.

For example people saying

“Woman should not teach men” (in the Church)

It says she should remain “silent in the church”, and “Not teach or…authority”

(it is evident our culture completely rejected that long ago, now I see how much western civ has changed since then and am sure it is a major contributing factor. Moses tells fathers to teach, So does the LORD in specific things, back in Jesus day men were the only teachers, “normality” was not found in secularism. Personally I don’t care how prevalent it is I won’t conform.)

Samson and the Nazarites were to be “unkempt” so they bore their shame for service to GOD. So?… I read GOD was to have a prophet cook his food over his own excrement (GOD commanded to bury outside the camp normally). Jesus even bore shame yet was without sin.

But even nature, I can testify its true, it shameful for a man with long hair...because the infallible WORD say's it is. (The WORD say's Jesus had a beard, but nothing about hair length, HE was a Nazerine, not a Nazerite ) but HE bore lots of shame for me righteously even if HE did keep HIS hair long.

I also see it’s a shame for woman to shave her head, and women don’t look like women in “power” suits, that are designed to be similar to men’s clothing…I could see these things even when I was convinced men came from apes. Even then I knew these were rebellious “statements” against the “establishment” which was another attempt to draw out protest to be mocked by outspoken liberalists. This foolishness compromised the culture through the fear of ridicule. But what can man do to me, I know if I went public with my protest my greatest opponents would be some of you folks…you’d be seething hot about how I was mis-representing the LORD, and making all Christians look “bad” or “weird” making it harder for you to have enough of the WORD to feel safe, and still not draw reproach for bearing HIS name. (oh no I don’t want them to think “----.“)

Amen
“This is the good FOR ALL.

1. What does the Scripture Say?
2. What does the Scripture Mean?
3. How is it Applied?

I know many times we try to spiritualize things, but violating the Scripture is flat out wrong.

…
This Scripture comes to mind, Uzzah put forth his hand of the ark (maybe he thought he was helping, maybe he thought they were not doing good enough) nevertheless God judge him because he disobeyed the Word of God.

Maybe some women are thinking they can help by teaching men or maybe they think men are not doing good enough…….

AMEN. AMEN, AMEN...

Dozman…

”were given equal inheritance rights”

Goldminer If Watchmen Nee says it ok then….I guess I'll agree... the WORD is still right never the less.

moreofHim,

That would certainly be time spent well no matter who we are. Good word.

(personally I don't feel women should pastor churches as the head of such)

Look I do not base things on what I feel but rather what Scripture teaches

You hear false prophesy everyday, you just don't have ears to hear and reconize it, that's all.

Low blow, be careful about saying people do not have ears to hear, especially when you do not even know them, that’s very unwise. You asked if I listened to a certain group of unbeliever’s prophecy, I said, No, I don’t tend to listen to false prophecy: I do not go down to hear Mormons prophecy, I do not listen to Satanists prophesy ECT……….

If you want to attack me personal that’s on you, but truthfully I do not have time for this.

Thanks for your insight,
Josh

I did not know Corrie made mistakes!

But I know what is coming next...
"HOW dare you talk about such a superiour saint...you were utterly born in sin..."

Actually I liked "the hiding place", neat sisters, such a true belief from an entire family, her papa was a son of light.

BUT she was taught falsely and was passing it on....(that is why false teaching is so dangerous, it is contagious)

Look at how teaching of Mohammad keep going...or Joseph Smith.

dohzman wrote:
In the Law if you search out the scripture, you can find all sorts of ministry that was shared.

In the NT church the role of women has changed.

I kinda feel as if you may have an ax to grid, maybe some female pastor...has hurt you in some way, or something has negatively influenced you to this direction, be assured it isn't the Word of God or the Holy Spirit that has done such though.

These guys are going by the WORD, and they are backing their points up by giving clear referances in the WORD.

As for your "assurances" I would not want to be you making such claims, and have to give an account for every word...Consider he is argueing the validity of Scripture, and you have possibly blashemed the HOLY Spirit, because it is HIM that brings Scripture to remebrance!!! READ John 14:26

please take it easy on yourself Christ really wants to say "well done good and faithful..." OK bro, don't go the other way.

Low blow, be careful about saying people do not have ears to hear, especially when you do not even know them, that’s very unwise

I stand corrected and of course you are right here. I meant to say we hear false prophesy everyday, from the TV news desk to the weather channel, to the people we engage day by day. Than there's the false religious cults, etc...
I do have somewhat a little trouble with people coming on this site and weilding the sword without no real history here and no real identity. So one must make certain assumptions especially when an unknown person embarks upon a most controversial subject. Generally speaking there's very little dialogue and a lot of scripture and much of the time there's little or no balance in the interpetation, now that said I make NO reference to you personally but make my statements in a very broad context site wise. To you personally if I have offended you or caused you to stumble I humbly ask your forgiveness.

Where is the logic in that personal jab?

he can answer for himself here I'm sure.

you have possibly blashemed the HOLY Spirit,

Do you know what that is? blashemy the HOLY Spirit? Let's hear your explaination of that.

because it is HIM that brings Scripture to remebrance

According to your logic that means everyone who quotes scripture is speaking from the Holy Spirit. You need to re-think this.

The following is from Robert's Word study.
1Co 14:34 -
Keep silence in the churches (en tais ekklēsiais sigatōsan). The same verb used about the disorders caused by speakers in tongues (1Co_14:28) and prophets (1Co_14:30). For some reason some of the women were creating disturbance in the public worship by their dress (1Co_11:2-16) and now by their speech. There is no doubt at all as to Paul’s meaning here. In church the women are not allowed to speak (lalein) nor even to ask questions. They are to do that at home (en oikōi). He calls it a shame (aischron) as in 1Co_11:6 (cf. Eph_5:12; Tit_1:11). Certainly women are still in subjection (hupotassesthōsan) to their husbands (or ought to be). But somehow modern Christians have concluded that Paul’s commands on this subject, even 1Ti_2:12, were meant for specific conditions that do not apply wholly now. Women do most of the teaching in our Sunday schools today. It is not easy to draw the line. The daughters of Philip were prophetesses. It seems clear that we need to be patient with each other as we try to understand Paul’s real meaning here.

As you study the passages out you come to the conclusions that the women Paul was addressing had become distracting or interuptive durning the teachings.

Wesley: 1Co 14:34 - Let your women be silent in the churches - Unless they are under an extraordinary impulse of the Spirit. For, in other cases, it is not permitted them to speak - By way of teaching in public assemblies. But to be in subjection - To the man whose proper office it is to lead and to instruct the congregation. Gen_3:16.

re Corrie ten Boon's eternal condition (for preaching and teaching):

she’ll suffer loss for it

I’ve lived most of my spiritual life in the passive lane – relying on the “experts” to handle God’s word, and letting them take care of my soul. If I had continued to rely on man, I would be hell-bound today. But God rescued me from the pit of darkness. Now, I ask, shall I remain silent while preachers and teachers continue to give false gospels, easy believism – easy tickets to heaven, which are really tickets to hell? Shall I remain silent and keep my “food” to myself? Is that love? Is it love to walk out, shake the dust off, and breathe a sigh of relief, saying: ‘Thank God, I’ll never have to risk my neck! Praise God I’m female!” Does that sound like Godly thinking? How can God be pleased with that?

Paul himself said, “I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race,…. Rom. 9:2,3

Let me tell you, I’d be satisfied to have the very back seat in heaven, receiving a “whipping” for teaching the word of God, then have to live with a guilty conscience for having refused to surrender my life, my mind, my soul, and my mouth to God – to use at his disposal. (that is hell itself)

I know I will never be a Corrie ten Boon, or a Katherine Booth, or a Fanny Crosby ( a preacher whom people lined up for blocks to hear). I will never even come close to these women in heaven. I do not have the spiritual disciplines or giftings that so many of my sisters have developed. I struggle in kindergarten. But I say, I’d rather have the very back row in heaven, right next to hell itself, it that is the risk of preaching and teaching God’s truth if/as he enables and as he leads.

Where scripture seems to be contradictory, it is far safer to take the WHOLE counsel of the Word of God. Also, it is far safer to surrender to the Lord. It is far safer to rely on the voice of the Spirit – that promised seal, that great and glorious gift God has given to ALL those who surrender to him. Look at all the women who are doing that today – as a response to the confusion and resistance they have received from dominant males – the religious hierarchy, or even from their sisters.

Let me tell you, there is GOOD in all this confusion! It forces a God-reliance that smooth sailing could never do. It makes mightier saints for God.

Several years ago the following scriptures were prophetically given to my pastor for me. Neither he nor I had any idea what they meant, and I still don’t. But God does. Perhaps it foreshadows the loss of my temporal life for the sake of the Gospel. That’s fine. I know he will get me safely to his heavenly kingdom.

“At my first defense, no one came to my support, but everyone deserted me. May it not be held against them. But the LORD stood at my side, and gave me strength so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might here it. And I was delivered from the Lion’s mouth. The Lord will rescue me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
2 Tim. 4:16-19

Diane

Philologos has an excellent post (very long) on page 10 of this thread - some helpful exegesis here.
Scroll to the bottom of the page.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=1751&forum=36&start=90&viewmode=flat&order=0]Can women preach/teach in church[/url]

Diane

Diane,
Thanks for providing this link to philologs' exposition on this subject. That was one fascinating read!

As I keep thinking about this subject, I keep wondering why is this such a difficult issue? Are there egos at work here? Hence the debate? We all know females are to submit to males who are in authority, that is not hard IF the males are kind. If we females have the mentality: what can I do for you and how do you want it done, this should pose no problem...unless the male has a dictatorial mentality. Now that kind will have problems everywhere he goes, even with other males!

My opinion...
ginnyrose

Ginnyrose said:

As I keep thinking about this subject, I keep wondering why is this such a difficult issue?

To be honest, the suggestion for such “policing” implies the gross failure of the leaders to bring their parishioners into maturity. If the leaders were doing their job correctly - that is, preaching and teaching sound doctrine, and showing godly love, they would not need to feel the need to control potentially wayward and immature women. They would have a mature Body, and women who could think wisely, carefully, and would effectively work along side with them in building the Kingdom. There would be no need for women to try to prove their equality by usurping the pulpits. There would be less power struggles and less need for the leaders to “put out fires”.

I once shared with a group of elders my concerned that they were spending all their time putting out fires. They accepted my words because they knew that I cared about them. They did not see me as threatening, because I wasn’t trying to tell them what to do. Really at the time I didn’t have any solution, but now I have come to believe that there is no substitute for strong sound teaching in a church – and overall, godly leadership just as scripture commands.

If you don't have mature leadership, how can you expect mature followers. It's time to stop scapegoating the women.

Diane

Hello...

I would just like to add that, as a man, I have learned quite a bit from women. My mother, sisters and other godly women of the Church have been quite instrumental in teaching the faith. Additionally, there are some women in this forum community that have taught me many wonderful things (some of whom are participating in this discussion thread). Some of the best teachers and professors that I have had the opportunity (or requirement) to sit under have been women.

It is very difficult to argue "against" the words of Paul concerning propriety in the Church (and the role that gender plays). However, I have visited various congregations which take several different steps to promote such gender hierarchy. I have visited congregations where the women were admonished to wear physical coverings over their heads. I have been to congregations where the women sat on one side of the building and the men on the other side. I have visited one congregation where the men worshipped in one building and the women in another (so much for family worship). I also visited a congregation where the women were not allowed to speak aloud (or offer suggestions) to their husbands.

Let me say this: If you are a woman, and you feel that you have something to say to me that might help me in my walk with Christ -- please SAY IT! There might be times in which I will not agree, but I will always pray about your words.

:-)

In Islam thaed Quinn said he is going to Mexico for two weeks to do prison Ministry

But as for KD buttons, she obviously has been sweet and gentle at times but also very "crass" with statments like

Doulos - Thanks for your permission to ask questions! I asked you one before in this thread which you did not answer..

you women keep challenging The face value of the WORD, and then congradulating each other when you feel you have cleverly justified not taking it literally with some clever catch, or the men that tickle your ears with excuses not to take HIS warnings literally.

I personally think that you continue to strive, and intellecually contend with these men so you can overcome GOD, but HE will not strive with man forever...even the prophets were allowed to be silenced but the WORDs remained.
I would suggest remaining silent, or reading the original post to see why you challenged it in the first place (honestly)

Don't you guys get it.

The problem you entirely addressed verse by verse, was understood by all that really wanted to receive the truth from GOD.

I see you keep saying Biblically why women can't teach, have authority, remain silent in Church...but you keep telling woman who are trying to teach you in the "online" assembly who feel they have authority to see what seems right to them.

You say women who do such are at risk of Satanic deception, while you argue in increasingly complex circles with decieved women...why?

Let these women that you could never get to receive the truth just take over this thread and wrap it up with their little homemade "get out of hell free coupon" editorials and move on.

Ryan

Hi all.

Just some quick thoughts and questions.

1)If someone (man or woman) speaks words of truth and Spirit are we all not made subject to truth as to obey because we obey and are subject not to man but to God himself who is in all.

2) The greater issue is we have too many PEOPLE who minister from there own flesh and mind who are self appointed and not appointed of our Lord.

3) My personal belief is that positions of earthly authority are given to Men, as God is a God of Order and his earthly order of creation still stands until he comes again. Yet NOW in Christ Jesus there is neither male nor female, so this is the greatest and heavenly truth. Yet His greatest love is with those who serve in humility. So let no one desire to lord it over another. If placed in authority will you not be judged more harshly? Whoever would desire such positions may well be conceited unless God has purified his heart to care over His people.

4)Can women speak in a Church? What constitutes a Church? Is it where two or more are gathered?
Can my fellow heirs in the kingdom read scriptures in a church, can they tell of the Goodness of god! I say personally not only do I find this acceptable but it greatly lifts my spirit. Yet I definitely agree with the brothers here on this issue, when there is a move from this speech to an authoritive teaching or a position over a man I find it most uncomfortable to accept. I think though this is more a disgust at the mere fleshly talk which so often comes from those who speak when out of relation with the Head more than an issue of men or women. Yet how often we accept in the church and in our lives that with comes from us and not from the Lord. I am pursauded that none of the flesh of corrupted man made it off the Cross nor out of the grave even less to the right hand of the mighty Father. So we should neither accept it in leading our thoughts, lives, or speakings in the church. Surely if we were all more subject to the New life of Christ in us, He himself would make all things clear in the church and in our lives. Yet I myself confess to have lived a large part of my walk not subject to Him fully but am glad not to have a position of authority or teaching that would have compounded my offences.

Lastly it is best not to become legally obsessed with certain scripture. Example. Even if all Churches all over the world covered heads and forbid to speak (If this be right?),yet the women didn't do it out of respect to God or conscience sake. Of what benefit would it be to those sisters who God loves and has made His abode in them? Are we not to love one another? If we follow the law as pharisee's surely it is because we love to be right more than we love one another and still less God himself. If indeed you are jealous for Gods glory then keep yourself blameless and admonish in all love.

I realize that my last post finished on a negative note. So here is the better half. It’s a true and exciting story of a congregation with which we have loosely associated for many years:

Many years ago a young pastor felt called to a very dead church – just a few old people. Through love and good teaching the church grew. However after some years the women were concerned that they were doing a lot that maybe the men should have been doing – in the basic behind the scenes administration, etc etc. So they sought the Lord in prayer. God led them to take giant step: give up their various functions. It left a big hole.

Amazing things happened after that. The men realized that they were not fulfilling their responsibilities, and so also sought the Lord. For starts, they made evening services just for the men: prayer and teaching. They took personal responsibility for their own spiritual growth.

Over the years this church became one of the strongest I have ever known. Strong Chirst-centered teaching continued all along. Men were trained to lead. There are now several capable men who could step in, should the pastor no longer be there.

Interestingly, this church did not hop on any trendy band-wagons. They did not hire a youth pastor, or even have youth meetings. Instead the elders each took on some of the youth – to nurture and disciple. The youth matured, and many of them participated in youth events in other churches. Family relationships strengthened. The women functioned as godly examples and leaders, as God enabled them. Above all, people were getting saved! These converts did not necessarily join the church but stayed in their own congregations to shine the Light, while receiving teaching during the weekly ministries. All the churches in town benefited. The schools benefited… The entire town benefited!

I share this testimony, not in order to suggest a formula. Of course it would be very foolish for women to step back without receiving this from the Lord. That would be passive manipulation, a subtle from of control - which would harm the body in the long run. The story points out that effectiveness comes from sitting at the feet of Jesus first and formost.

I trust that this story encourages each of us to see the importance of Paul’s exhortation to Timothy:

“train yourself to be godly” 1 Tim. 4:7

By the way, JoshS, welcome to SI. It looks like you will have a lot to share from your heart!

Diane

I love to come together in unity with the bothers and sisters in the Lord but it grieves me to see the way we speak to each other because we disagree on certain issues. Wether that individual is wrong or right again let me say that there is no need for it. I would ask that maybe a moderator step in at this point or that maybe we look at the rules for posting on SI.

Enough.

Of all the things that could be said and they are many, one of them wishing to be expressed is [i]Foolishness![/i]. I am not speaking of the great opposing understanding Paul speaks of in opposing worldly wisdom but of wrongheadedness and the greater matter of the heart.

Indeed [i]there is no [u]need[/u] for it[/i].

Quite overlooked in this is a great matter that has been appealed to is to take note of ones surroundings here. There is a great developing history, one that has shown forth this very principle in this discussion, namely, [i]prior[/i] history. We have been down this road before.

Secondly and it is amazing the missed submission by hovering over just one aspect and sidelining the context;

[i]I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;[/i] 1Ti 2:1-5

[i][b]Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a [u]father[/u]; and the younger men as [u]brethren[/u]; The [u]elder women as mothers[/u]; the younger as [u]sisters[/u], with all purity. Honour widows that are widows indeed.[/i][/b] 1Ti 5:2,3

[i]Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But [b]foolish and unlearned questions avoid[/b], knowing that they do [u]gender strifes[/u]. And the servant of the Lord [u]must not strive[/u]; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In [u]meekness[/u] [u]instructing[/u] those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.[/i] 2Ti 2:22-26

There is throughout scripture an exhortation to appeal to wisdom, to elders, yes those [i]older[/i] and wiser than ourselves. Another tremendous omission;

[i]Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; [b]Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.[/b][/i] 1Ti 1:5-7

I am speaking of [i]context[/i] and the very omissions that derived excerpts, [i]alone,[/i] are far too often left naked. The one and same elder in our midst who wrote quite succinctly as it was appealed to here in this past discussion of this very same issue [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=1751&forum=36&start=90&viewmode=flat&order=0]Can women preach/teach in church?[/url], a thread, if one takes notice [b]2 years old[/b], let me insert strongly, [b]Search this site![/b]. This same pastor, [i]teacher[/i] and dear brother is more than worthy of our honor and our very ear, our submission to his studied and learned [i]life[/i]. In excess of 40 years walking with our Lord. Philologos, Ron Bailey is dearly loved and respected for all these things, for his great understanding but there is something more, far more important than all this, tremendous as it is, blessed as we are to have his life experience shared here.

It is his very heart.

And from that very heart came a great statement long ago about how we deal with the scriptures; That we [i]lift up[/i] certain verses to examine them, but be sure to put it back where you [i]found it[/i], in other words [i]context[/i]. Some of us do not have the foggiest idea what we are doing playing with Gods word the way we do, at times many of us and I certainly include my own folly here, are in effect playing with dynamite. It is all the difference in the world to grapple with [i]perhaps[/i], to ask questions, to challenge our interpretations, to give an opinion and quite another to be [i]dogmatic[/i] when so much has to be left alone to support our particular bents, tirades, assumptions. Some of us would far rather pontificate than [i]learn[/i]. [b]Think[/b]! Or of all things, change our minds. It is pride. It is high-mindedness. It is a haughty spirit and it is down right evil.

The Lord is in our midst, what might He say to us?
Find this well pleasing? Find order or disorder? The very things being pontificated at the level of our sisters dashed up against the rocks of appealing to those older, who have some evidential authority, that given of the Lord, not assumed or pushed forward. Let me set the record straight here, I do not know one way or the other, have no desire than to spend and be spent here and am a learner first and foremost. I will challenge all comers to the level of depravity that I know in factual experience still yet lingers in the depths of this ruined nature. IF something authoritative leaks through be certain and be sure it is not [i]me[/i].

For the willing and interested, a listen to what authority [b]is[/b]; (Excerpted from a previous posting)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here is two messages that may apply very well here:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=949]A Look At Authority 1: Spiritual & False [/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=944]A Further Look At Authority 2: Delegated Authority[/url] [i]by Stephen Kaung[/i]

[b]Description:[/b] This sermon looks at the nature of authority and also deals with the fact of false authority. It starts with Romans 13 and moves through many Scriptures dealing with authority, submission, and obedience. Kaung shows that only God deserves complete obedience and that he must be obeyed at all costs. The main message of the sermon can be summed up in this quote from the message: "God is the only authority in the Universe. There is no authority whatsoever except God himself -- and what God has given. … There is so much misunderstanding about authority; we mistake something that’s commonly accepted as authorities (sic) without really knowing what authority really is. … God is the one and only authority. Any professed authority that is not from God -- that is not God himself -- is not real authority, because God is the only authority in the whole universe. … The more you give, the more authority you have. The Lord Jesus said, ‘I gave myself a ransom for many.’ Because he gave himself as a ransom for many, the many come under his authority. If you want to be the first among your brothers and sisters, then you have to be a bond-slave, not only to Christ, but to your brothers and sisters.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[u]Thy Theology Killeth[/u] is an article of expression that I am attempting and a great deal of it is taken from the observation of this particular posting and from other observances in my tenure here at the often unpleasant job of attempting to keep the peace amongst so many [i]teachers[/i].

[i][u]Not many of you[/u] should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more severely. For all of us make many mistakes. If someone does not make any mistakes when he speaks, he is perfect and able to control his whole body. Now if we put bits into horses' mouths to make them obey us, we can guide their whole bodies as well. And look at ships! They are so big that it takes strong winds to drive them, yet they are steered wherever the pilot pleases by a tiny rudder. In the same way, the tongue is a small part of the body, yet it can boast of great achievements. A huge forest can be set on fire by a little flame. The tongue is a fire, a world of evil. Placed among the parts of our bodies, [b]the tongue contaminates the whole body and sets on fire the course of life, and is itself set on fire by hell.[/b][/i]Jam 3:1-6

Read your own self into this those who ought, those who need it not, I dare say even some of our own sisters in spots may as well be culpable here. I too will concentrate on it, all of us.

Appeal to wisdom! Humble [b][i]thyself[/i][/b]!
[u]Grieve not[/u] the Holy Spirit! Time and time again we have been exhorted and time after grievous time there is this underlying sentiment of [i]'I don't care what anyone thinks'[/i] amongst [i]Brethren[/i]! [b]Foolishness![/b]

[b]But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.[/b] Gal 5:15

It is too bad we are often unable to silence and humble ourselves before God and [i]man[/i], that we must jump to conclusions, that the sheer unwillingness to hear and consider and learn, that even here within this subject matter is a going over the rails, [i]both[/i] extremes, I dare say there is some very truth of some sisters beginning to usurp proper boundaries, may the Holy Spirit show this, do not take my word for it and do not write to me personally, one of the strangest paradoxes in my little role here is to hear back from those who [i]need no repentance[/i]. Besides, I am no judge and jury here, I am your servant!

But the appeal is correct, do READ and consider just what the effort is here;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=13&3176]Welcome & Intro[/url]

They are easy enough to find, stationed near the top.

It is too bad that this has had to go to such lengths and has become unprofitable, unedifying. If you are of a mind that doesn't care, please find somewhere else to show your wares. We would far rather that you continue on here, cordially, in a spirit of fellowship and learning.

There is no reason to allow this thread any more mileage, it is time to move on. It will be locked.

May God have mercy on us.

Greetings all.

Would like to offer a few qoutes and put them over the backdrop of our motives in participating in such a place as this, devoted as it is, to seeing revival and the moving of God's Holy Spirit amongst His people.

First, from the pen of one so well associated with that very thing in America, Jonathan Edwards:

"The first and worst cause of error that prevails in our day is spiritual pride. [b]This is the main door by which the devil comes into the hearts of those who are [u]zealous[/u] for the advancement of Christ[/b]. It is the chief inlet of smoke from the bottomless pit to darken the mind and mislead the judgment, and the main handle by which Satan takes hold of Christians to hinder a work of God. Until this disease is cured, medicines are applied in vain to heal all other diseases."

"[b]One under the influence of spiritual pride is more apt to instruct others than to ask questions[/b]. Such a person naturally puts on the airs of a master. The eminently humble Christian thinks he needs help from everybody, whereas the spiritually proud person thinks everybody needs his help. Christian humility, under a sense of others’ misery, entreats and beseeches, but spiritual pride commands and warns with authority."

Being as this place, having so much in the way of wisdom, and grace from on High, written and recorded for us, from those from days past, is so open and ready for us to partake of, seeing this then this qoute above seems especially striking.

Being surrounded by so many eminently wise and proven counselors from the past, how is it we have so much instruction to give?

And I think too of these words from the pen of David

[b][color=000000] Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.[/color][/b]

Peace be with you all in Christ Jesus