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Anyone shedding a tear for Saddam today?

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NLONG

Anyone shedding a tear for Saddam today? Yes, Saddam has been through the legal process and has been found guilty. Is there a man alive that is not guilty before God? Yes, Saddam was a brutal, tyrannical dictator. Yes, he was a murderer. Yes, I'm sure he is (soon to be was) a lot of things. But, is anyone shedding a tear for Saddam today? What is God's heart in the matter?

Ezekiel 18:23 & 32 "23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? ... 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

Ezekiel 33:11 "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

I see a lot of people that are satisfied with the death of this man. Perhaps there are scriptures that say something different. That's not my point. From these, God obviously has no pleasure in it. Perhaps Jesus is still weeping. No doubt, one day He will take vengance against those who refuse to repent. I guess I have the same thoughts today as I did on 9/11. How sad, another soul for the fire.

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sermonindex

It saddens me that this man was decieved by satan. It saddens me even more that he will more than likely, (unless he becomes a christian before his death), spend an eternity in a DEVILS HELL. Hell was not created for us. It was created for the devil and his angels. So we actually are intruders if that is the place we CHOOSE to go.

On the other hand justice is being served. I believe in that. The bible teaches that. God is a just God. Even if he were to be saved, the sentence should still be carried out.

love in christ
j-bird

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MrBillPro

No tears for him, but I sure am shedding a bunch of tears for all the folks who lost their live because of him, the Bible says you "will" reap what you sow he sowed lots and lots of death now it his time for his reaping.

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Chariot

Now here's a topic that stretches my mind. It drives me back to the Lord's mercy. Taking captive the thoughts that parade across my minds eye, i recall that our Father takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. And as my mind recalls the pain and suffering caused by this one man, i'm also reminded of that one verse, "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

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PaulWest

It saddens me that this man was decieved by satan. It saddens me even more that he will more than likely, (unless he becomes a christian before his death), spend an eternity in a DEVILS HELL. Hell was not created for us. It was created for the devil and his angels. So we actually are intruders if that is the place we CHOOSE to go. On the other hand justice is being served. I believe in that. The bible teaches that. God is a just God. Even if he were to be saved, the sentence should still be carried out.

Very good post, brother. My sentiments exactly.

Brother Paul

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hello...

I am praying for him. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Saddam Hussein cried out to the true Living God before he died? Oh that someone would reach out to him with the Love of Jesus!

I do not weep for the terrible actions of this man. Nor do I weep for the display of justice being poured out to him. However, I weep at the thought of any man going to death without reaching out to Jesus Christ.

:-(

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NLONG

MrBill,

No doubt, he will justly get what he deserves from our Just and Holy God. He will reap what he has sown. That doesn't erase the scriptures. God doesn't take pleasure in His death. However, if he had repented then all heaven would take note.

This is not for you Mr. Bill. Have Christians become so callous that they cannot shead a tear for lost sinners? Or would we like to be the first at the gallows?

EDIT:
Chris,

Yes, I would love to see that indeed. Of course, since he is already condemned to death he has nothing to fear in converting to the truth. AMEN. I weep for the same brother, another sinner meeting a Just and Holy God, who didn't tremble, nor repent. Chills my bones!

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dohzman

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

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sermonindex

I havent really given it a lot of thought.

My thoughts and prayers are with our guys and girls in uniform that could get caught in the hellstorm that Sunni insurgents, or ex-Baathist gangs unleash post execution.

When I look at Saddam Hussein I see the descendants of the same that gave King Hezekiah such hell way back when. or those that torched the first Temple, which was the best Temple of the three. Sometimes in my hearts eye, I can SEE King Solomon praying that first night at the Temple (1 Kings 8) when the Glory filled the Temple. What a moment that must have been, then came the Assyrians, and then the babylonians, and they torched it all.....and what's really even more sad is that is was the Persian Kings who gave the remnant the wherewithall and resource to go back and rebuild the Temple, and its the descendants of these Persian kings whom Israel will probably have to hit hard to prevent from possessing the nuclear option.

as far as saddam, just another assyrio-babylonian king getting put to the sword, whats new? If you lay with dogs, you're gonna get fleas.

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Chariot

My thoughts and prayers are with our guys and girls in uniform that could get caught in the hellstorm that Sunni insurgents, or ex-Baathist gangs unleash post execution.

Which makes the whole situation all the more tragic. That the 'judgement' of Saddam - which has already cost the lives of thousands of troops, others maimed for life, and tens of thousands of Iraqians - may require further bloodshed, is heart-rending.

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paula4jc

anyone shedding a tear for Saddam today? What is God's heart in the matter?

Yes! I am – it’s not the Lord’s will that any should perish.

But it will be more bearable for Saddam at the judgment than for our Christian leader, Bush and companies. Pagan Saddam had killed his thousands, but Christian Bush is still killing his millions!


It saddens me that this man was deceived by Satan

Fahrenheit 911, said Saddam was deceived/created by American leaders.

L
LasVegas



But it will be more bearable for Saddam at the judgment than for our Christian leader, Bush and companies. Pagan Saddam had killed his thousands, but Christian Bush is still killing his millions!

I totally agree that Saddam was caught in the trap of the devil and so are so many other world leaders. This also includes the leaders in the churches of America. :-(

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jlosinski

I can't help but feel so very sober at the news and details leading up to his execution, my sense of nervous anticipation pales in comparison to his I'm sure...

I heard it on brother Wilkerson's sermon "Hell, What is it like" that many will die with God the furthest thing on their mind.

You have heard the adge "There are no athiests in foxholes" When I was in Iraq, I was back slidden and came close to death a few times, but even that didn't turn my heart to repentance...Praise God that he saw it fit to spare me in the midst of war.

I pray that Mr. Hussain humbles himself before our righteous Judge, but remember, Stalin cursed God with his last breaths.
Praise Him from whom all blessings flow,
Joe

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jlosinski

Just saw on the news, he's dead. :-(

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MrBillPro


NLONG wrote:
MrBill,

This is not for you Mr. Bill. Have Christians become so callous that they cannot shead a tear for lost sinners? Or would we like to be the first at the gallows?

Well I had a couple friends, long time friends working over there in Iraq that were killed by his army years ago, so I am not callas I am grateful! and maybe some others attitude "may" be different if they lost a relative or friend to this killer.

No, I know all about forgiveness and yes I have forgiven him, but I am also glad his day came, it's so easy to sit back and judge someones opinion even if they are Christians until your best friend or relative was killed, then you "might" have a little different attitude and unless you have been in my shoes losing a couple of your best Buds to this killer you will never know, callas no grateful yes.

Yes I am a little bitter but if being bitter is a sin well I know God will forgive me and that is the only one I am looking to for forgiveness not man.

J
jlosinski

Sir,

You may find my last post on "War" interesting, I would like to hear your opinion,
with Love, Joe

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Here4Him

It is interesting, my brother and I were talking about Saddam yesterday. My initial feeling was one of overwhelming gladness that this wicked man will be brought to justice by a holy God, but then i had a check as i remembered something that i had seen in a John Wesley Dvd the a few nights ago. John and his brother Charles attended a criminal to his execution and on the way with him they preached Jesus to him and pleaded with the man to put his faith in Christ and be saved. The man so convicted of his crimes thought he could not be saved but John Wesley continued to plead with the man until he did accept Christ and his burden rolled away and he went to his death with a smile on his face and a great peace.

My brother asked me if i would like to go into Saddam's cell the night before his execution and share the gospel with him. I had to think about it, part of me was appalled at the thought that this wicked man may be let off right at the last, but then God reminded me of the outrage of the gospel.

I am convinced that if Saddam would have been truly repentant over his sin and someone would have shared the gospel with him and he put his faith in Christ he would have been saved.

I find that shocking, and the gospel should shock us. That there is power in the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse even Saddam Hussain of a liftime of the most heinous crimes against God and humanity. O what our Lord must have suffered upon that cross! If Saddam had repented and trusted Christ that would mean that Christ had suffered the righteous wrath and fury of Almighty God for his sins- Oh how He was crushed by His holy Father under the weight of our sins!

It occured to me that self righteous man is appalled at the thought of Saddam Hussain being let off by God because of the weight and terribleness of his crimes. And yet does this not show something of ignorance and self deception in us? We think that it was not so shocking for God to forgive us respectable people- Oh it was amazing but not shocking- well heaven finds it shocking- it is shocking!!!

Perhaps it's because we do not trully know the weight of our sins that crucified the Saviour, perhaps its because we have not seen the wickedness of our own hearts? Oh my soul, if you compare yourself with Saddam Hussain do you appear a saint? Then take one more look at your wicked heart and see your past sins in the light of God's infinite glory and holiness and you will see yourself on a par with this tyrant and you will be amazed that God for Christ's sake forgave you.

One last thought. If we were to see Saddam in heaven would it not be one of the greatest possible tributes to the grace of God? If he were there would he not be the biggest trophy on the highest shelf, as the greatest monument to the grace and mercy of our God. I doubt we will see him there- but who knows what happened in those last hours. All i know is this: "the vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives".

How shocking is the gospel!!!

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crsschk

Pretty appreciative of most of the responses here, perspectives. Difficult to make "one" statement stick. Know of an acquaintance from years back that was of Kurdish decent, whose own mother witnessed the slaying (gassing) of her own people under his hand and fled through Turkey into the US. I did some work on his house during the time of the first gulf war and had the pleasure of a peculiar communication with his mother while he worked night shift. A very ... primitive, by our standards, aged lady taken quite out of her context of life and trying to adapt to our culture. Our language was communicated by hand signals and grunts and almost 'playing charades' if you will, trying to understand each other. The things she tried to feed me! Oh ... Always cooking something, and I am the most picky eater this planet has ever conceived. Quite a bit more to this whole story, my acquaintance being involved with the army of his country (Kurdistan)at one point, his story was quite incredible and credible. His pain felt after what was an abandonment to his people after that time ... Some of the story's he told ...

For all this, the earlier news of what was to become of him ... Saddam ... initial reaction was of sadness, nothing measured for atrocities and all these things. I do not know if it is just not for the sin of this planet and it's people that causes the ache and inner despondency, none of us has escaped it's penalty and none will. Death to all.

My brother asked me if i would like to go into Saddam's cell the night before his execution and share the gospel with him. I had to think about it, part of me was appalled at the thought that this wicked man may be let off right at the last, but then God reminded me of the outrage of the gospel.

I am convinced that if Saddam would have been truly repentant over his sin and someone would have shared the gospel with him and he put his faith in Christ he would have been saved.

I find that shocking, and the gospel should shock us. That there is power in the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse even Saddam Hussain of a liftime of the most heinous crimes against God and humanity. O what our Lord must have suffered upon that cross! If Saddam had repented and trusted Christ that would mean that Christ had suffered the righteous wrath and fury of Almighty God for his sins- Oh how He was crushed by His holy Father under the weight of our sins!

I so appreciate this and concur wholeheartedly.

I
IRONMAN

bro Here4Him

so much to chew on bro...may God minister to us through what He had you say here.


Here4Him wrote:
It is interesting, my brother and I were talking about Saddam yesterday. My initial feeling was one of overwhelming gladness that this wicked man will be brought to justice by a holy God, but then i had a check as i remembered something that i had seen in a John Wesley Dvd the a few nights ago. John and his brother Charles attended a criminal to his execution and on the way with him they preached Jesus to him and pleaded with the man to put his faith in Christ and be saved. The man so convicted of his crimes thought he could not be saved but John Wesley continued to plead with the man until he did accept Christ and his burden rolled away and he went to his death with a smile on his face and a great peace.

My brother asked me if i would like to go into Saddam's cell the night before his execution and share the gospel with him. I had to think about it, part of me was appalled at the thought that this wicked man may be let off right at the last, but then God reminded me of the outrage of the gospel.

I am convinced that if Saddam would have been truly repentant over his sin and someone would have shared the gospel with him and he put his faith in Christ he would have been saved.

I find that shocking, and the gospel should shock us. That there is power in the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse even Saddam Hussain of a liftime of the most heinous crimes against God and humanity. O what our Lord must have suffered upon that cross! If Saddam had repented and trusted Christ that would mean that Christ had suffered the righteous wrath and fury of Almighty God for his sins- Oh how He was crushed by His holy Father under the weight of our sins!

It occured to me that self righteous man is appalled at the thought of Saddam Hussain being let off by God because of the weight and terribleness of his crimes. And yet does this not show something of ignorance and self deception in us? We think that it was not so shocking for God to forgive us respectable people- Oh it was amazing but not shocking- well heaven finds it shocking- it is shocking!!!

Perhaps it's because we do not trully know the weight of our sins that crucified the Saviour, perhaps its because we have not seen the wickedness of our own hearts? Oh my soul, if you compare yourself with Saddam Hussain do you appear a saint? Then take one more look at your wicked heart and see your past sins in the light of God's infinite glory and holiness and you will see yourself on a par with this tyrant and you will be amazed that God for Christ's sake forgave you.

One last thought. If we were to see Saddam in heaven would it not be one of the greatest possible tributes to the grace of God? If he were there would he not be the biggest trophy on the highest shelf, as the greatest monument to the grace and mercy of our God. I doubt we will see him there- but who knows what happened in those last hours. All i know is this: "the vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives".

How shocking is the gospel!!!

P
photobybake

For the purpose of context, I'm in Baghdad right now. When I woke up this morning and did PT as the sun was just rising I didn't realize that an hour earlier somewhere not too far away Saddam was executed. It wasn't till I got to work and the video started coming out that I knew.
Three years ago, I was here, about to board a plane taking me to Kuwait and eventually home, and Saddam was being shown just after his capture and now three years later I'm here again and he has finally been executed.
This year through a connection with my brother-in-law I actually got to watch a portion of his trial live, he was only about 20 feet away seperated by one-way glass it was very surreal. But this morning watching masked men escorting him to the gallows looking at his face, one I had seen in the flesh only months prior, I begin to feel sad. Here he is standing literally at hell's gate and there was no repentance, he was rebellious to the end. God blessed him with gifts of charisma and power and he used them for evil. It is sad to see any person executed. On the same hand this is justice.

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crsschk

Jason, brother, thank you ...

Reading this just sent chill's through me ... guess hearing it from your perspective, being there, bringing it even closer to home.

My prayers for you and all those there ...

(*Edit ~ Jason, went ahead and removed the duplicate post, just to keep things cohesive)

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searchin

he got off better than most...he knew the day and hour he was going to die.
if knowing you are gonna' be dead in a week doesn't turn you to God what will?

what is realy ironic in the news today is the fact that our enemy "Iran" is the most pleased with Saddam's fate.....nice of us to eliminate our enemies enemy....

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ginnyrose

Many on this thread expressed my thoughts ....

How about Timothy McVeigh? Anyone shed a tear for him when he was executed? Why? or why not?

ginnyrose

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sermonindex

By MARC SANTORA
BAGHDAD, Dec. 30 — Saddam Hussein never bowed his head, until his neck snapped.

His last words were equally defiant.

“Down with the traitors, the Americans, the spies and the Persians.”

The final hour of Iraq’s former ruler began about 5 a.m., when American troops escorted him from Camp Cropper, near the Baghdad airport, to Camp Justice, another American base at the heart of the city.

There, he was handed over to a newly trained unit of the Iraqi National Police, with whom he would later exchange curses. Iraq took full custody of Mr. Hussein at 5:30 a.m.

Two American helicopters flew 14 witnesses from the Green Zone to the execution site — a former headquarters of the Istikhbarat, the deposed government’s much feared military intelligence outfit, now inside the American base.

Mr. Hussein was escorted into the room where the gallows, with its red railing, stood, greeted at the door by three masked executioners known as ashmawi. Several of the witnesses present — including Munkith al-Faroun, the deputy prosecutor for the court; Munir Haddad, the deputy chief judge for the Iraqi High Tribunal; and Sami al-Askari, a member of Parliament — described in detail how the execution unfolded and independently recounted what was said.

To protect himself from the bitter cold before dawn during the short trip, Mr. Hussein wore a 1940s-style wool cap, a scarf and a long black coat over a white collared shirt.

His executioners wore black ski masks, but Mr. Hussein could still see their deep brown skin and hear their dialects, distinct to the Shiite southern part of the country, where he had so brutally repressed two separate uprisings.

The small room had a foul odor. It was cold, had bad lighting and a sad, melancholic atmosphere. With the witnesses and 11 other people — including guards and the video crew — it was cramped.

Mr. Hussein’s eyes darted about, trying to take in just who was going to put an end to him.

The executioners took his hat and his scarf.

Mr. Hussein, whose hands were bound in front of him, was taken to the judge’s room next door. He followed each order he was given.

He sat down and the verdict, finding him guilty of crimes against humanity, was read aloud.

“Long live the nation!” Mr. Hussein shouted. “Long live the people! Long live the Palestinians!”

He continued shouting until the verdict was read in full, and then he composed himself again.

When he rose to be led back to the execution room at 6 a.m., he looked strong, confident and calm. Whatever apprehension he may have had only minutes earlier had faded.

The general prosecutor asked Mr. Hussein to whom he wanted to give his Koran. He said Bandar, the son of Awad al-Bandar, the former chief justice of the Revolutionary Court who was also to be executed soon.

The room was quiet as everyone began to pray, including Mr. Hussein. “Peace be upon Mohammed and his holy family.”

Two guards added, “Supporting his son Moktada, Moktada, Moktada.”

Mr. Hussein seemed a bit stunned, swinging his head in their direction.

They were talking about Moktada al-Sadr, the firebrand cleric whose militia is now committing some of the worst violence in the sectarian fighting; he is the son of a revered Shiite cleric, Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr, whom many believe Mr. Hussein ordered murdered.

“Moktada?” he spat out, mixing sarcasm and disbelief.

Mowaffak al-Rubaie, Iraq’s national security adviser, asked Mr. Hussein if he had any remorse or fear.

“No,” he said bluntly. “I am a militant and I have no fear for myself. I have spent my life in jihad and fighting aggression. Anyone who takes this route should not be afraid.”

Mr. Rubaie, standing shoulder to shoulder with Mr. Hussein, asked him about the killing of the elder Mr. Sadr.

They were standing so close to each other that others could not hear the exchange.

One of the guards, though, became angry. “You have destroyed us,” the masked man yelled. “You have killed us. You have made us live in destitution.”

Mr. Hussein was scornful: “I have saved you from destitution and misery and destroyed your enemies, the Persians and Americans.”

The guard cursed him. “God damn you.”

Mr. Hussein replied, “God damn you.”

Two witnesses, apparently uninvolved in selecting the guards, exchanged a quiet joke, saying they gathered that the goal of disbanding the militias had yet to be accomplished.

The deputy prosecutor, Mr. Faroun, berated the guards, saying, “I will not accept any offense directed at him.”

Mr. Hussein was led up to the gallows without a struggle. His hands were unbound, put behind his back, then fastened again. He showed no remorse. He held his head high.

The executioners offered him a hood. He refused. They explained that the thick rope could cut through his neck and offered to use the scarf he had worn earlier to keep that from happening. Mr. Hussein accepted.

He stood on the high platform, with a deep hole beneath it.

He said a last prayer. Then, with his eyes wide open, no stutter or choke in his throat, he said his final words cursing the Americans and the Persians.

At 6:10 a.m., the trapdoor swung open. He seemed to fall a good distance, but he died swiftly. After just a minute, his body was still. His eyes still were open but he was dead. Despite the scarf, the rope cut a gash into his neck.

His body stayed hanging for another nine minutes as those in attendance broke out in prayer, praising the Prophet, at the death of a dictator.

Ali Adeeb and Khalid al-Ansary contributed reporting from Baghdad.

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sermonindex

Forgive my possible ignorance, but when I hear Christians saying, 'This is justice.' I don't really understand it. Surely only God can judge man, because He is perfect?

If Saddam has been hanged for his murder and violence, then I should be hanged aswell for my lack of self-control, my sexual immorality, my lust, my anger and my pride?

Praise Jesus that He died for my sins. But how sad that He died for Saddam's sins also, but he did not accept Christ as his sin-bearer.

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photobybake

When I say "justice" I mean "earthly" justice. Ultimately God is the final judge of us all. But Romans 13:4 does refer to earthly authorities as "A servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer." I believe it can be agreed that Saddam had committed horrible crimes against humanity.

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ginnyrose

I believe it is so sad that when a person knows when he/she is going to die, they will not make peace with their Maker...whether this person is a disposed ruler of a country or one riddled with cancer makes no difference.

As a mom I wonder: did Sadam ever have a mother? Did she love him? Ditto with Timothy McVeigh. How on earth can a person become so wicked who will commit such horrific crimes against the elite of God's creation? To answer my own question, I would guess it happens one step at a time; a person does not become so vile overnight, it is a process. And if it would not be for the mercy and grace of God, where would we be?

Yes, I am grieved it had to come to this...

ginnyrose

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crsschk

Ezekiel 33:11 "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;

As this verse was mentioned earlier, it has always struck me just how much is contained within it.

... but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

I believe it is so sad that when a person knows when he/she is going to die, they will not make peace with their Maker...

It is remarkable ... especially to take your pride to death, defiant to the bitter end. Reminded of some of the mentions from;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8555&forum=35#68997]Last Words of Famous People[/url]

[i]What did you do to our daughter?" asked a Moslem woman, whose child had died at 16 years of age. "We did nothing," answered the missionary. "Oh, yes, you did," persisted the mother. "She died smiling. Our people do not die like that." The girl had found Christ and believed on Him a few months before. Fear of death had gone. Hope and joy had taken its place.[/i]

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c52

No one knows when they are going to die. Mr. Hussein did not know. In fact he may not be dead. The real tear-jerker is that the trial has created even more doubt about the motives of the U.S. administration. The trial itself is on trial. If indeed the issue was war-crimes then maybe the venue should have been moved to the Hague.

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NLONG

Thanks all for your wonderful response in this thread. I guess my reason for writing this was to challenge some thoughts I often hear coming from Christians mouths. Without a doubt, Saddam was an enemy of Jesus our Lord. What are we supposed to do to our enemies? Pray for them, do good to them and bless them. Where is pity? mercy? forgiveness? Instead I hear alot of justice, vengance, "good for Saddam." It's not! He'll burn eternally, the smoke of his torment will ascend forever and ever. Not good.

Is it that Christians overlook thier own sinful (hopefully past) lives? Do we think ourselves better? Do we think there are levels of sin where once you've crossed the line, all should cheer at their death? Does God see Saddam and me differently? Before I was born again, I think me and Saddam were on the same bowling team--headed for destruction. Thank God he got through to one of us! This is what I think about when I think of Saddam, that I was once in the same in for the same judgment by the righteous and Holy God, but I was pardoned--He died not only for me, but because of me. GOD BE PRAISED! This makes me tremble though and shead a tear for Saddam.


Mr. Bill,

I think you misunderstood me. I stated that part of my reply wasn't intended for you personally. I've no idea if your callous, so I didn't target you. Hope you didn't take my coment other than it was intended.


Richardf,

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dohzman

But it will be more bearable for Saddam at the judgment than for our Christian leader, Bush and companies. Pagan Saddam had killed his thousands, but Christian Bush is still killing his millions!

I take issue with this statement! We had christian brothers and sisters thrown into wood chippers feet first while they were fully awake and fully alive! He geneocided entire tribes with the uttmost cruelity. What Saddam did he did employing the most cruel methods, limb removal by sword and also by tieing legs and arms to vehicals and have them pulled apart, and more!!! God judges the cruelity of an action, the man got in judgement here on earth what was due him, and in the life to come likewise.

President Bush ? Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

History will write how God with held His Judgements on this country because of President Bush's committment to Christ. He was/is a messenger of God for judgement for this time in america and the world scene. As to judgement from God he's only responsible to God for the light that he has recieved from God.

Fahrenheit 911, said Saddam was deceived/created by American leaders.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
There will always be detractors, that's why we as christians are called to pray for our leadership and to be subject to them in strive to live a holy life in all godliness and peace, that we may serve our Lord and God without being bound. Paul wrote that to a very persecuted church.

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Chariot

History will write how God with held His Judgements on this country because of President Bush's committment to Christ.

A brave prediction. I have no knowledge of Bush's commitment to Christ, i do, however, know of the choices he has made regarding America. And under his watch, i think he has brought America a step closer to judgement. This is not to say he should bare the brunt of responsibility though he likens himself as "The decider."

He was/is a messenger of God for judgement for this time in america and the world scene. As to judgement from God he's only responsible to God for the light that he has recieved from God.

Could you clarify this statement. In what way is he a messenger? What exactly is his message?

M
MrBillPro


paula4jc wrote:
But it will be more bearable for Saddam at the judgment than for our Christian leader, Bush and companies. Pagan Saddam had killed his thousands, but Christian Bush is still killing his millions!

Fahrenheit 911, said Saddam was deceived/created by American leaders.

Let me see here I am guessing Paula is not a Republican. :-)

Paula you came here and make a statement like that and follow it up by saying you watched Fahrenheit 911? I have never seen it but trust me the writing is all over the wall and it says deception.

Today we have as our modern day devil, Michael Moore, who takes pride in saying that his film clips and sound bytes are all true, yet, just like the crafty devil, he has arranged this true information to unabashedly deceive. Then, other times, he is just flat out in literal error.

D
dohzman

He was/is a messenger of God for judgement for this time in america and the world scene. As to judgement from God he's only responsible to God for the light that he has recieved from God.
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Could you clarify this statement. In what way is he a messenger? What exactly is his message?

He concisely and swiftly brought retribution on those who attacked this country, 9/11, the results of that action forced america's enemies to re-think any other attempts during his watch. I do believe there will be one more attempt during his watch however i'm not sure if it will be against the U.S. or him personally as I don't fully understand that which I have recieved from the Lord, reguardless that action will fail.

As far as Iraq was concerned he was a defender of the weak, and an avenger of the blood of the saints who were cruelly murdered, whose blood like Abel's cried out to God from the earth, and like those in Rev "how long O'Lord".

What exactly is his message? He will have given us 8years of relative safety in order for the church to get its house in order. I guess the message he has brought is one that says any attack on this country will not be tolerated and will meet with like retribution. Be assured that North korea and also Syria & Iran have filtered into thier thinking his action in Iraq and the strategic location of our armed forces.
This has given christians time to get thier houses in order before the terrible days ahead. The thing that concerns me is that the pulpits across america are pretty much silent about such things and there seems to be no discernment into the times. 1Ch 12:32 And of the children of Issachar, which were men that had understanding of the times, to know what Israel ought to do;

The lack of understanding in the pulpit as to the days we are in grieves me greatly.

I
IRONMAN

Brethren
sis Paula is not entirely wrong about saddam hussein. america has oft intervened in countries in ways which would be beneficial to America, for example Iran. After the nationalization of the iranian oil company under mossadegh, things moved quickly to oust him then cam ethe shah. as we know the shah was helped out by the cia and eventually came the ayatollahs. the formation of an islamic republic wasn't so good...then they got aid from the soviets coz you know they were not about to ask the "great satan" for help. when saddam rose to power he also got help from the u.s. and other western countries uding the iran-iraq war. incidentally when Qassim was leader of iraq the u.s. did work with the ba'ath party to assassinate qassim, a plot which failed...saddam got shot and had to run away.

He concisely and swiftly brought retribution on those who attacked this country, 9/11, the results of that action forced america's enemies to re-think any other attempts during his watch. I do believe there will be one more attempt during his watch however i'm not sure if it will be against the U.S. or him personally as I don't fully understand that which I have recieved from the Lord, reguardless that action will fail.

indeed the bush response was swift and as per Romans 13, he did what he should have done. however concerning 9-11, where was God? was He caught unawares ie had nothing to do with it as some claim, or was it judgment? if it was then we have to see what it was for and repent...the thing is i hear many people out there talking about the evil of radical islam, but not a peep about the evils of our own hearts. if God sees the evil of the radicals, i don't think He's blind to ours...if Israel wasn't spared for her iniquity but suffered God's wrath and judgment even unto utter desolation of the land, how can we escape...especially if we are supposed to be a christian nation?

i don't think the issue of another attack is such a big deal, the issue of the economy tanking will affect everyone and in that will be a big portion of the coming judgment coz that will get everybody's attention...

As far as Iraq was concerned he was a defender of the weak, and an avenger of the blood of the saints who were cruelly murdered, whose blood like Abel's cried out to God from the earth, and like those in Rev "how long O'Lord".

i suppose so, but genocide is nothing new. i suppose then the ones who were killed in rwanda and burundi, those who have died and yet die in darfur will have to wait a while till someone avenges them also? :-?

What exactly is his message? He will have given us 8years of relative safety in order for the church to get its house in order. I guess the message he has brought is one that says any attack on this country will not be tolerated and will meet with like retribution. Be assured that North korea and also Syria & Iran have filtered into thier thinking his action in Iraq and the strategic location of our armed forces.

now this was interesting bro dohzman, we have had about 8 yrs to get it together. have we done so? if not then what can we expect to happen as a result? Iran is getting very close to russia, have you noticed how the russians are helping them with weapons, nuclear plants etc? if Iran wants to start something and has russia with her (we know syria will likely jump in) that changes things quite a bit. we're not in a position to get into a ground war with iran no way. they have a pretty sizeable army and they have 6-7 million men who are willing to go to war without guns but die as martyrs for Iran and islam. these are the same guys who gave saddam a hard time during the iran-iraq war. these human waves are no joke. most experts say that the best way to take care of iran is not ground war, that's suicide. an air and naval war is the best way.

This has given christians time to get thier houses in order before the terrible days ahead. The thing that concerns me is that the pulpits across america are pretty much silent about such things and there seems to be no discernment into the times. 1Ch 12:32 And of the children of Issachar, which were men that had understanding of the times, to know what Israel ought to do;

indeed, too many of us are goofing off and will be caught with pants down when the judgment hits.

at the end of the day bro, God has it all in hand and His plan to demonstrate His manifold wisdom (Eph 3) to all the principalities and powers marches on in spite of and through the current events.the question is not so much how Bush will be remembered but rather, how does Bush and what has been done through his administration fit into God's plan?

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hello...

I am amazed by posts that are meant to call into question the President's relationship with Christ. We are not supposed to simply believe everything he says because he claims to be a believer. However, we should be careful not to slander him when we do not know him personally -- and when we do adequately understand the political processes for the Executive Branch of Government.

It is said that President Lyndon Johnson was greatly affected by his critics during the Vietnam War. LBJ believed in the cause in which he committed troops in Vietnam. It was believed that the third world, without a strong stand against communist aggression, could fall into the clutches of athiestic oppression and communist tyranny. Our president committed our fighting men and women to the jungles of southeast Asia to stop such Soviet expansion.

History shows us that Americans were initially in favor of the defensive war in Vietnam. Americans knew that the world could not afford the entire Asian continent falling to the Soviets. But as casualties mounted into the multiplied tens of thousands, a strong isolationist feeling returned to this nation (which had not been known since before Pearl Harbor). This attitude, incorporated with the anti-establishment movement of the late 1960s, produced a series of protests against the Vietnam War. The media immediately jumped upon the opportunity -- particularly due to the successful rise of "tabloid" and "investigative journalism" in the 1960s (especially from the New York Times). If one were to believe the media -- antiwar sentiment was "everywhere." Yet in reality, their "movement" was quite limited. Yet the over-saturation of the anti-war movement by the media (and their daily presence in Washington DC) caused the war to seem unreasonable and unnecessary. Eventually, public support for the war began to fall.

The protesters were not kind. They called both the President and members of the military "baby killers." Hippies chanted daily, "[i]Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today[/i]?" This took a toll on the President. It is reported that he actually collapsed while weeping in his office. The media's coverage of the "news" actually served the purpose of slowly changing the public's sentiment. It can be argued whether it was the media's fixation with the War and the anti-war movement, the war itself, or a combination of both that caused a change in US policy. It is my opinion that it was the latter -- and it was the main cause for the "loss" in Vietnam.

I see a strong parallel between the Vietnam War and the War in Iraq. However, this parallel does not come in "fighting a war we cannot win." We could have won the war in Vietnam. We can help achieve a temporary peace in Iraq. It is certainly possible to set up a non-oppressive democratic government in the Middle East (at least along the lines of the government in Turkey). The parallel that I see is not quite so obvious. Instead of facing communist zealots, we face violent religious sectarian zealots. Much of the media, it seems, is doing its best (or worst) to report its interpretation of the "news" (rather than reporting the substance of the news). For every instance of violence in Iraq, there are many instances of good being done that is never reported by the media. There are extreme examples of famous protesters within the current "antiwar" community (like Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan) who are calling the President a "baby killer." Sound familiar?

I hope that, as believers, we are able to "test everything" and realize that we should not be so gullible as to believe everything that we see reported by the nightly news or large newspapers. At the same time, we should be careful not to believe all that we are told by anyone (liberal or conservative). We should be careful about the use of slanderous criticism when we certainly are not fully aware of all of the facts. There is so much that goes on behind the scenes. The President, believe it or not, is much smarter than the manner in which he is portrayed by the liberal media. He graduated from Yale and Harvard (two liberal institutions) becoming the only President in history to have earned an MBA. His undergraduate GPA at Yale was actually one point higher than Senator John Kerry's (at the same school and during the same time span). President Bush graduated with a BA in History at Yale (while Kerry graduated with a BA in Politics). The President also earned a Master of Business Administration from Harvard Business School.

President Bush claims, like we do, to have a relationship with Christ. There are several individuals that publicly question this. I wonder what they would do if they were subjected to the same amount of scrutiny about their own walk with Christ?

I rejoice in the fact that the most powerful man in the world actually names the Name of Jesus. While I might not agree with all of his policy, I am happy that he has taken a strong stand against abortion, government recogntion of gay marriage, the teaching of sex education to young children, pornography and filth in the media, pornography as a form of "art," and an attempt by certain secular liberal organizations (like the ACLU) to remove all aspects and protections of religious expression from the public eye.

I wonder what would happen if our nation were to elect a militant athiest to office? Or what would happen if a liberal extremist was elected and appointed two or three far-left extremists to the Supreme Court (like the liberal justices appointed by Bill Clinton that oppose "under God" in the pledge or "In God We Trust" on our currency)? Perhaps the current President wouldn't seem so "bad" during that time?

I had a youth pastor who was highly unliked by many members of our large congregation. He was quite "strict" with us -- and preached the truth with great boldness (and great love). In fact, he was the first person in my life to ever tell me that I was in danger of going to Hell. He preached with great conviction mingled with tears. He even purchased copies of [i]Why Revival Tarries[/i] for our youth group. To the best of his ability, this youth pastor presented the Gospel in its entirety. He taught us to question the status quo of our own spiritual lives -- and to aim to please God in all things.

Unfortunatley, many parents were afraid their teens wouldn't want to attend a youth group that didn't offer pizza parties, rock concerts, ski trips and fun, non-offensive sermons. Even though the youth group was large (and growing), some parents complained that the youth meetings would end at midnight with young people seeking God in tears. Some parents complained that the youth pastor was "too hard" on the youth, and stated that he needed to "lighten up." Yet the youth were holding prayer meetings in their homes WITHOUT the youth pastor ever finding out about it. The youth were involved in evangelism, prayer, and reaching out to the hurting in our community and in the mission field. But the parents continued to complain. Eventually, the youth pastor moved on to become a senior pastor at a church 500 miles away. The subsequent youth pastors struggled to be accepted by the youth -- even after all of the "fun" activities they promoted. The up and coming youth became disinterested in the things of God. Several girls became pregnant, and many of the guys simply abandoned the faith. Eventually, the youth group dropped to about 5 or 10 youth (versus the 150-200 dedicated teens with the former youth pastor). Ironically, I overheard some of the same parents that complained about my youth pastor now saying how much the Church needed him.

I have often wondered if this same principle applies with politics. Believers often are quick to complain about whatever things they disagree -- so much so that they sometimes fail to see the good that is being done. My uncle is currently serving in Iraq. He was injured a couple of years ago by an RPG (that killed his two best friends sitting on both sides of him in an armoured humvee). Yet my uncle is as dedicated as ever in this "mission." Like most military men in Iraq, he is quick to point out at all of the good that goes unreported by the media. Iraq, he believes, is much better off than it was four years ago. He bases this opinion on the situation he sees now and the words of native Iraqis in the Church there.

I am writing this -- not to be contentious -- but to remind each of us to pray for the President. I also hope that we might be careful to question the things we hear, watch and read. And of course, we should be slow (prayerfully slow) before we vocalize judgment upon an individual...including the President of the United States.

:-)

By the way, I did shed tears for Saddam. Like I said before, I do not believe in capital punishment (except for what is necessary to defend other lives). I prayed that he might somehow find Jesus before he was executed. However, I shed even more tears when I watched his execution on internet (and read the translations of his final statements). He died with his Qur'an. One thing is for certain, he will stand before the same Judge as the rest of the world (including you, me and President Bush). May we all be found blameless and faithful on that day.

A
avessel

My heart is sad that this man died. Not because he was my hero and not because I am pro Saddam, but because this is another soul (unless he repented in his heart before hanging) added to the pits of Hell. This man could have been another apostle Paul. This goes to show how important it is to preach the Gospel to all the world. I believe justice was done, for God is a just God. I also believe that God longed for this man like He does the whole world, to turn from his sins and run to Jesus. May we all see how valuable the soul is, and yearn to preach to the blind and lost. Amen

D
dohzman

Well written! God Bless

I
IRONMAN

bro Chris

I am amazed by posts that are meant to call into question the President's relationship with Christ. We are not supposed to simply believe everything he says because he claims to be a believer. However, we should be careful not to slander him when we do not know him personally -- and when we do adequately understand the political processes for the Executive Branch of Government.

true that, i don't doubt He's a Christian and at first i didn't agree with many of his policies. then God did a curious thing with me, He lifted me above the fray to see things from where He is and i see how it all fits into His plan. where my flesh would disagree with policy, i know see how God is engineering and moving things so that His plan can be fulfilled. it is no accident Bush is in office love him or hate him, God put him there not for the benefit of the nation, iraq or anything else but to fulfil a part of God's plan. Iraq may not be going so well but that is but a superficial thing, how does this drama in iraq fit into what God is doing? that's the question we ought to be asking as saints.

It is said that President Lyndon Johnson was greatly affected by his critics during the Vietnam War. LBJ believed in the cause in which he committed troops in Vietnam. It was believed that the third world, without a strong stand against communist aggression, could fall into the clutches of athiestic oppression and communist tyranny. Our president committed our fighting men and women to the jungles of southeast Asia to stop such Soviet expansion.

LBJ really had a hard time with vietnam. His whole demeanor changed because it weighed so heavily on him. some have said that they see no such effect on Bush which i guess concerns them. if it is true i'd be concerned too, however the issue remains "What part does this war play in the fulfulling of God's plan?"now we know communism prevailed in vietnam which seems to me so show that God's intent was not to halt communism even if it was ours, He had something else in mind...what was/is that? perhaps God spared us a worse fate, perhaps God was trying to show us that it is the gospel we need to spread. perhaps us in this generation may have to reinvade vietnam with the gospel and succeed where the war effort failed? consider this, everywhere that man has gone with war, there have been defeats, however there is nowhere where the gospel has gone and not conquered.

The protesters were not kind. They called both the President and members of the military "baby killers." Hippies chanted daily, "Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?" This took a toll on the President. It is reported that he actually collapsed while weeping in his office. The media's coverage of the "news" actually served the purpose of slowly changing the public's sentiment. It can be argued whether it was the media's fixation with the War and the anti-war movement, the war itself, or a combination of both that caused a change in US policy. It is my opinion that it was the latter -- and it was the main cause for the "loss" in Vietnam.

i see what you mean by the press in many ways underminiing the vietnam war effort but if we look at history, any occupying force eventually begins to lose grip. the soviets occupied eastern europe and that fell apart, afghanistan was a humiliation for them. i think the bigger issue which may be largely downplayed is that if anyone comes into your house for whatever reason, you get down and throw down. them vietnamese people didn't play, to them they were fighting for home and would die for it. they knew the lands well and so i believe even if people were totally behind the war effort, eventually we'd have had to pull out as things got more unmanageable. perhaps this is what we were spared? anyhow the bottom line is evidently God's plan differed from our own, the thing is what was/is God's plan?

I see a strong parallel between the Vietnam War and the War in Iraq. However, this parallel does not come in "fighting a war we cannot win." We could have won the war in Vietnam. We can help achieve a temporary peace in Iraq. It is certainly possible to set up a non-oppressive democratic government in the Middle East (at least along the lines of the government in Turkey). The parallel that I see is not quite so obvious. Instead of facing communist zealots, we face violent religious sectarian zealots. Much of the media, it seems, is doing its best (or worst) to report its interpretation of the "news" (rather than reporting the substance of the news). For every instance of violence in Iraq, there are many instances of good being done that is never reported by the media. There are extreme examples of famous protesters within the current "antiwar" community (like Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan) who are calling the President a "baby killer." Sound familiar?

i guess we could have won in vietnam, however eventually things would have fallen apart. pretty much every occupying force in history had it's strength wane and collapse eventually. the british controlled a huge chunk of the world but eventually that fell apart.

i think that the lesson for us in Iraq is that democracy like communism will fail. any system which is not God's own theocracy can simply not stand indefinately. rather than being a crowning achievement for us, Iraq will eventually be a part of our downfall, not because it isn't a noble cause but because we're not seeing anything past the natural. We're spending money we don't have there. the good thing about this is once we see for ouselves that our strength lies not in democracy, arms, wealth etc, it will be painfully clear when all these things evaporate before us, we will repent and God will be front and centre in our lives. i look forward to this repentance because the response to repentance from God will be the revival many of us long for.

I hope that, as believers, we are able to "test everything" and realize that we should not be so gullible as to believe everything that we see reported by the nightly news or large newspapers. At the same time, we should be careful not to believe all that we are told by anyone (liberal or conservative). We should be careful about the use of slanderous criticism when we certainly are not fully aware of all of the facts. There is so much that goes on behind the scenes. The President, believe it or not, is much smarter than the manner in which he is portrayed by the liberal media. He graduated from Yale and Harvard (two liberal institutions) becoming the only President in history to have earned an MBA. His undergraduate GPA at Yale was actually one point higher than Senator John Kerry's (at the same school and during the same time span). President Bush graduated with a BA in History at Yale (while Kerry graduated with a BA in Politics). The President also earned a Master of Business Administration from Harvard Business School.

bro thanks for the info. it's interesting how things can be spun in the media...i didn't know bush did better in school than kerry...how do gpa's compare across majors though? is history harder than pol sci? i still do laugh at the bushisms though :-P what i find admirable though us that even though the pres sometimes mangles the language, we can both laugh together and move on.

I rejoice in the fact that the most powerful man in the world actually names the Name of Jesus. While I might not agree with all of his policy, I am happy that he has taken a strong stand against abortion, government recogntion of gay marriage, the teaching of sex education to young children, pornography and filth in the media, pornography as a form of "art," and an attempt by certain secular liberal organizations (like the ACLU) to remove all aspects and protections of religious expression from the public eye.

i agree bro!

I wonder what would happen if our nation were to elect a militant athiest to office? Or what would happen if a liberal extremist was elected and appointed two or three far-left extremists to the Supreme Court (like the liberal justices appointed by Bill Clinton that oppose "under God" in the pledge or "In God We Trust" on our currency)? Perhaps the current President wouldn't seem so "bad" during that time?

we will probably see that in the next election. i feel some things will happen during this administration such as the collapse of the economy which will be blamed on the administration (really it is the culmination of much greed, mismanagement and corruption of many people over many generations) which will trigger a backlash against God and anyone who has anything to do with Him. on the issue of in God we trust on the money etc i learned that if we are doing as we ought before God, it's all good. however if we are honest with ourselves, we're not a very Godly nation so to claim such is hypocracy...God doesn't like that misrepresentation of Him when we say one thing and do another. don't get me wrong, if we're doing right by Him, such claims can be made without fear and indeed some of us like Judge Moore in alabama have been called to that work of defending such displays. the thing is are we being real, or are we being like the Israelites who were said of in isaiah by God that they honored Him with their lips but their hearts were far from Him? i would be leary of making such claims or having in God we trust on money and so on not because i'm afraid of offending anyone, but rather i'm afraid of offending the God i'll be invoking by saying such and then behaving in a contrary manner...Perhaps the seemingly unstopable onslaught of the secular progressives and their victories is an indication to us of something we have been blind to or unwilling to acknowlege...have we lost our savour? what if these values we hold dear are being eroded because we no longer represent them or conduct ourselves accordingly? could it be that perhaps God being run out of public life is a reflection on how we have run Him out of our own lives?something to ponder perhaps?


I had a youth pastor who was highly unliked by many members of our large congregation. He was quite "strict" with us -- and preached the truth with great boldness (and great love). In fact, he was the first person in my life to ever tell me that I was in danger of going to Hell. He preached with great conviction mingled with tears. He even purchased copies of Why Revival Tarries for our youth group. To the best of his ability, this youth pastor presented the Gospel in its entirety. He taught us to question the status quo of our own spiritual lives -- and to aim to please God in all things.

praise God!!!

Unfortunatley, many parents were afraid their teens wouldn't want to attend a youth group that didn't offer pizza parties, rock concerts, ski trips and fun, non-offensive sermons. Even though the youth group was large (and growing), some parents complained that the youth meetings would end at midnight with young people seeking God in tears. Some parents complained that the youth pastor was "too hard" on the youth, and stated that he needed to "lighten up." Yet the youth were holding prayer meetings in their homes WITHOUT the youth pastor ever finding out about it. The youth were involved in evangelism, prayer, and reaching out to the hurting in our community and in the mission field. But the parents continued to complain. Eventually, the youth pastor moved on to become a senior pastor at a church 500 miles away. The subsequent youth pastors struggled to be accepted by the youth -- even after all of the "fun" activities they promoted. The up and coming youth became disinterested in the things of God. Several girls became pregnant, and many of the guys simply abandoned the faith. Eventually, the youth group dropped to about 5 or 10 youth (versus the 150-200 dedicated teens with the former youth pastor). Ironically, I overheard some of the same parents that complained about my youth pastor now saying how much the Church needed him.

God help us!

I have often wondered if this same principle applies with politics. Believers often are quick to complain about whatever things they disagree -- so much so that they sometimes fail to see the good that is being done. My uncle is currently serving in Iraq. He was injured a couple of years ago by an RPG (that killed his two best friends sitting on both sides of him in an armoured humvee). Yet my uncle is as dedicated as ever in this "mission." Like most military men in Iraq, he is quick to point out at all of the good that goes unreported by the media. Iraq, he believes, is much better off than it was four years ago. He bases this opinion on the situation he sees now and the words of native Iraqis in the Church there.

indeed bro it seems to me it does. i have no doubt that much good has come from our presence in Iraq and it is not talked about much. however i'm not looking at this in terms of how it benefits humanity, but rather how this fits into God's plan. if we find that what drives us is anything but the furthering of the kingdom of God, then we're lost. if we analyze the situation and see that God is not the final beneficiary, then all is lost because God honours that which He Himself has sanctioned to be done. my thing is, in all this, what is God up to?

I am writing this -- not to be contentious -- but to remind each of us to pray for the President. I also hope that we might be careful to question the things we hear, watch and read. And of course, we should be slow (prayerfully slow) before we vocalize judgment upon an individual...including the President of the United States.

neither am i bro and i bless God for your bringing this up...we are to pray for our leaders at all times. we should sift all we see, hear and read by the light of God, by His word which explains His plan for creation in Ephesians 3.

let us begin to see things more on the lines of how this fits into what God is doing.

if saddam died with his koran and didn't find Christ, then indeed he will suffer eternal torment. let us not be slow in sharing the gospel brethren...

C
Chariot

I am amazed by posts that are meant to call into question the President's relationship with Christ.

I hope my words were not misconstrued, if this was partially directed to me.

I also hope that we might be careful to question the things we hear, watch and read.

Does this include your post ;-) cause honestly, it was by careful questioning that i have come to the conclusions that i have about Iraq and the current administrations handling of it - it was no cursory glance.

but to remind each of us to pray for the President

Amen

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