Love your enemies or punish them in Hell

This would beg a question along this line...Why does the OT show a God of wrath and the NT a God of mercy? The God of the New Testament is the same as the God of the Old Testament. The Bible says that He never changes. He is just as merciful in the OT as He is in the NT. Read Nehemiah 9 for a summary of how God mercifully forgave Israel, again and again, after they repeatedly sinned and turned their backs on Him. The psalms often speak of God's mercy poured out on sinners. He is also just as wrath filled in the NT as He is in the Old. He killed a husband and wife in the Book of Acts, simply because they told one lie. Jesus warned that He was to be feared because He has the power to cast the body and soul into hell. The apostle Paul said that he persuaded men to come to the Savior because he knew the "terror of the Lord." Read the dreadful judgements of Revelation. That will put the "fear of God" in you, which incidentally is "the beginning of wisdom." Perhaps the most fearful display of His wrath is seen in the cross of Jesus Christ. His fury so came upon the Messiah that it seems God enshrouded the face of Jesus in darkness so that creation couldn't gaze upon His unspeakable agony. Whether we like it or not, our God is a consuming fire of holiness (Hebrews 12:29). He isn't going to change, so we had better...before the Day of Judgement. If we repent, God, in His mercy, will forgive us and grant us eternal life in heaven with Him.

But, apparently, God the Father will condemn those who reject and hate Him to eternal torment in hell. He asks us to love our enemies and then, treats His own enemies with punishment.Says one thing, does another. Go figure.JakeHere we go again. Have you ever tried to measure just how much of the Bible you have absolute confidence in? I know you are not impressed by Paul, that about 33% of the New Testament. I know you don't like the Revelation. You reject the necessity of the virgin birth, Christ's bodily resurrection and physical return. There are clearly whole swathes of the Old Testament that you have no confidence in. As far as I can understand your position, you reject the teaching that Satan is a spirit-being person, with a never ending destiny.In the end you are endorsing the ethic of Jesus the Teacher. The teaching of Jesus is wonderful and utterly impossible to someone who rejects the person of Jesus as described by the the gospel recorders. Of the teaching of Jesus you reject his own personal attitude to the scriptures which we the background to everything He said and did.You position is like someone who having read War and Peace rejects whole sections of it, concentrates on a heavily edited version of some of the conversations. Some parts you interpret in an idiosyncritic manner unknown to any other reader, but confirmed by your inner witness.You embrace notions rejected by the text eg reincarnation. Nevetheless you are a firm believer in War and Peace..I repeat Jake, and without anger but with genuine concern for your soul, you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. The Bible will only reveal its secrets to those who trust it. The god you worship is a god of your own creation, such worship is idolatry. The only person you are affecting by your bizarre interpretations is yourself; every repitition only confirms you in your darkness. For you it becomes more coherent in the telling but to others.What you have Jake is Buddhism with a Christian vocabulary. Your concepts of reality are Buddhist, not Christian. Satan is not an illusion to himself or to anyone else. Reincarnation is is Buddhist not Christian. Transcendental meditation is not Christian it is Buddhist.You call yourself Christian but will not acknowledge the virgin birth, his physical resurrection. You will not acknowledge that Jesus is uniquely the Son of God, fully God made fully human. All this is perfectly compatible with Buddhism. A man who does not believe what you don't believe, and does believe what you do believe,can never be called Christian.

I know some things are hard to understand. I don't understand with my human mind- all that IS. But I have come to this conclusion: God is God- we are not. He has the authority and power and rule to do whatever He wants.I trust that He is just. He gives boundries for our benefit and we are to stay within those boundries. If we choose to live outside those boundries (acting as God ourselves) then we must suffer the consequences. We know the boundries- we choose blessing or judgement by our actions.Same with any good parent. With my children, I give boundries AND I let them know the consequencs of stepping outside those boundries. They, then CHOOSE to either obey or get disciplined.- even though I LOVE them to death- I will discipline (give them consequences)because it is for their own good- for their own safety, for their own wisdom in the future.The difference between us and God is that HE iS GOD. We are not.In Him, Chanin

In response to the original question,I need to ask, what is the agenda here?Is this to 'push some buttons'?An honest inquiry?Something is suspect in the attempt to marry the line of thought with the texts together.What is the response to the issues raised and the questions asked from others here?Jake, brother, what is going on?I think it can be stated that we as a whole are concerned about you as a person.More importantly the state of your soul and I mean that in all sincerity.May God have mercy on me if I am misunderstanding you or your intentions.The love of God within me compels me to ask along with the others, why? Why this bent towards leaning on your own knowledge? Do you really think that we all have some kind of mold that we are attempting to press you into? I think at the heart of it we are all trying to understand and grasp the deep mystery's of God.Some things we will be debating till the cows come home or the Lord returns. But the core essentials of the Christian faith keep coming up for challenge and want to be re-written. Are we not mere creatures?This scripture instantly came to mind upon re-reading all this again:Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. You may percieve that anyway you choose, but what I gather out of it is the principle as it applies here and the byproduct of our troubles.Let us be humbled before our God.Let us be of some help if we can Jake, not by any of our own wisdom, but as we also submit ourselves to the wisdom of God.Praying for us all.May the Lord be merciful.

I make my cat eat off the basement floor. I eat at the table. When my cat jumps on the table she gets backhanded off the table. She isn't allowed to go outside but I do it several times a day. When she tries to go out she gets kicked in the face. It is for her own good. There are rules that apply to her because I'm in charge and taking care of her and what I say goes. She is not on my level and if she wants to fight it out to the ultimate showdown I'll have her put down (I live in town or else I'd do it myself).Anything about this seem analogous to the discussion? Our place is under God's. We are thrilled to get canned tuna and not the lethal injection we deserve.

Jake I must echo the previous questions from Mike and philologos posted.What are your motives for this thread? scripture exhorts us to PROVOKE one another to good works.Are you sure of your contributions dear friend?Looking ahead & upDelboy :-?

Jake, man I say again get saved dude. Stop raising these silly questions to men and get saved. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1Cor2:14danielcourtney

DanielCourtney:That's a counter-productive way of evangelism! Jake:I have had this discussion with you before. Your presuppositions regarding the sources of authority and inspiration of scripture are so profoundly different from others on this board that there is little common ground on which a meanful discussion could be conducted, especially in a forum titled Scriptural Debates.Try reading some books on apologetics by evangelicals and see if they make sense (e.g. Christian Apologetics, by Norman Geisler). Then maybe we could discuss further.

Jake, from what I can gather you believe whatever your "inner witness" leads you to believe.You pick and choose whatever it tells you is correct, my question to you is, how do you know what side your "inner witness" is on?

Jake writes Yes, Philologos, Jesus was God in the flesh, but how this is so is a mystery to me and should be a mystery to all of us. (Claims of Virgin birth was a common means of deifying people throughout the ages.) Did Jesus have free will? or was He a puppet on God's strings? I believe He had free will as a human being and thus, He could not have been identical in nature with God the Father.Jake, not God in flesh, but 'come in flesh'. This is not just divine presence but incarnation; God becomes man. 'god in flesh' may be nothing more than pantheism. The Word became Flesh; this is incarnation and the starting point of Christianity. He was 'identical in nature' with God the Father, that is the whole point. He became man but did not cease to be God. He lived his life on earth as a man, not because He was different in nature to His Father but because He chose to. It was part of the identification process. I presume your reference to virgin birth being a common means of deifying people throughout the ages shows that you see no unique and infallible revelation in Christianity. The revelation of God in Christ is just another addition to all the 'truth' in all the religions. Jake, this is Buddhism. You may be a very nice Buddhist, but this is not Christian.What I find strange and offensive is that while I claim Jesus in numerous posts on this site, people like Danielcourtney continue to urge me to "just get saved." I have a different take on the Scriptures and Christianity but my faith, like yours, is in Jesus, the only son of God. But I have no idea who this Jesus of yours is. He is clearly not the Jesus of Bible revelation; who is he? For me the saving grace of Jesus is his profound teachings and demonstation of love. He teaches us how to live and offers us His Holy Spirit as a counselor.Salvation is not by means of profound teaching or demonstrations of love but through vicarious substitutionary atonement. But this is something else you are strangely silent on. Either Christ died for the sins of the world or He didn't. If He did to add anything, good works included, is blasphemous. What do you think was taking place on the cross? "God commendeth His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." This was not to show us a better way of life, it was 'for us' that is instead of us, in our place. I don't know whether you believe in vicarious, substitutionary atonement; perhaps you would tell me? If you do believe that Christ bore our sins in his body on the tree what possible purpose could there be for progressive reincarnations in which we 'work out the consequences of our sin'. I'm not even sure you believe in the concept of sin.The bottom line is that we both may say we have faith in Jesus, the only son of God but that statement means nothing if every word in the phrase is used differently. I don't know what you mean by faith, in, Jesus, the only, son of God. All these words have biblical concepts but you mix and match to such a degree that they no longer communicate sense.

1 Peter 2:24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Jake,It's not about getting 'saved'- as Danielcourtney said. it's about 'surrender'.If we really want to live like Jesus taught, we will surrender everything to the Father. That includes our will, our wants, our own logic.It's also about 'trust'. we can't surrender unless we trust. Do you believe in total surrender to God?This to me- is the epitome of Christianity. I claimed to be a Christian for many years- even though I had not really surrendered everything in my heart, mind and life to God. I wanted to still keep some things back to myself.Jesus was the ultimate example here. He came to do the will of his Father. He did nothing of Himself- only those things He saw the Father doing. God wants to be KING on the throne of your heart- not 98% Him and even 2% you. It is normal to have questions but then turn them over quickly to God and TRUST what He has said. If we claim to rule in any part in our lives or heart- then I question anyone if they are really a Christian- a follower of Christ. We cannot have him as our First love and have other loves too- even knowledge, opinions, whatever. He is jealous for you and your love for Him.Finding out all of these answers, increasing in man's knowledge, knowing all there is to know- this is meaningless to God. He is knowledge, wisdom, the Answer. The only thing we need to be concerned about is Surrender- to him. Every single bit, every aspect of our lives. We were bought with a price and the least we can do is surrender everything to Him.In Him, Chanin

Yes, Jake, I do wish that we were in a little hippie commune where everyone loved and was naturally good and no punishment or discipline was ever needed. Unfortunately for your theory, this is far from reality. If I let my cat do whatever she wanted and never smacked her I'd have a condo-barn in no time. If my son never got spanked he would be a terror and turn out like many of the punks in our society. If my God never disciplined me I'd be on my way to Hell.If God had said over and over that He was only love and never claimed to be holy and just I'd be on your side. Unfortunately He is supreme, holy, and just. Holy taken to the third degree of repetition! His love will not contradict His holiness.It is even more scripturally obvious that Satan will be in hell forever than man. So how is okay to put him there forever while people get off easy? Aren't humans who rebel just as much an offense to God as angels who rebel? Why eternally punish Satan but just destroy men? Aren't men's souls eternal like God and His angels?One final note: Once when my cat escaped me she was hit by a car and had her jaw hanging loose for a day before undergoing surgery and healing for two months. I'd say she should appreciate those kicks that keep her inside quite a lot. In the same way I appreciate all the discipline I've received from my parents and God (even when it was severe) because it has molded me into a person I'd never have been on my own.

Personnaly, I think it was the act of submission to God's will that was most important. We all are confronted with things God asks us to do or not do that are against our personal desires. When we deny ourselves and do what God bids us we take up our cross and follow after Jesus.JakeOh I wish I could be with you and talk this through. How would submission to God's will affect the acculmulated sins of the whole world, past, present and future? This is moral influence theory; it says Christ died to change the way we think and act. This is not revelation of God but man's rationalisation. The Bible reveals vicarious, substitutionary atonement not the setting up of an example.Isaiah says God "gathered together upon Him the sins of us all". He died under the sentence of God's righteous anger against sin and sinner. Like the scapegoat of old He carried it away from God's presence. I am not for or against Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ". My anxiety is that it will present the notion that pain caused by whips and nails was the suffering referred to in 1 Peter "Christ hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God" [1Pet 3:18] This word suffering in Greek is pascho. (It is where our word passion comes from.) If Gibson is saying that the physical suffering of Christ brought us to God, he is in error. If you say his submission to the will of God brought us to God you are in similar error. It was not a public demonstration. The work was achieved in 3 hours of pitch darkness with no witnesses.It was the sacrifice of Himself offered without spot to God, upon which God could lay the sins of the whole world. It was the suffering of separation from one who had been His eternal companion. Peter's single verse is remarkable for its fullness.Christ suffered once. One all embracing, never to be repeated, sacrifice.suffered for sins: He suffered for (peri-regarding) sins. His suffering was in relation to sin. The physical suffering was merely the outward shadow of what was taking place in spirit. This atonement in Bible language.the just for the unjust; this is a different word for 'for'. meaning 'instead of'. This is substitionary atonement.to bring us to God; this is reconciliation.He died not as an example but as a blood sacrifice to enable God to be both just and the justifier of those who put their faith in Christ. Redemption was accomplished in the cross, which is why the triumphant cry of "it is finished" came as the cry from the darkness. This achieved redemption is applied to individuals by the Holy Spirit as they rest all their faith on what He has done for them.Upon a life I did not live, upon a death I did not die, upon another's life, another's death, I stake my whole eternity. This Jake is faith, everything else is mockery of the word. And this is why utter dependence upon Christ as God incarnate is not an optional extra to Christian faith. It is at the heart of the matter. No other life than the life of God Himself could have sustained this burden or achieved this salvation.GLORY, GLORY, GLORY TO THE LAMB.

Jakeyou write Question: Did God the Father die on the cross, too? You seem to be saying this. If so, who raised Christ from the Dead?No, the Father did not die on the cross; neither did the Spirit. But the Father paid the price in the gift of His Son, the God-man. I don't know if you are a family man, but for a Father to give a son is the greatest price a father could pay. A far greater price than if He had come and died Himself. Three Persons of the Godhead combined in perfect agreement to execute the purpose of One God at Calvary.He can only be 'an example to follow' for those who have His Spirit. No man or woman could emulate Christ without the Spirit of Christ.I am glad to see the way you have expressed things in your first paragraph, but to appreciate what Christ has done you will need to come to terms with God's anger being turned away by the death of His Son. [Isaiah 12] He bore our sin and it separated Him from His Father. The Passion of the Christ was that His Father turned the sword on Him. [Zech 13:7] This is Jehovah visiting His wrath upon His Son. Charles Spurgeon once said; it was as though the Father unsheathed the sword of His righteous anger against sin, and then sheathed it once and forever in the body of His Son.

Just wanted to thank Ron (philologos) here for the tremendous patience and willingness to help spell out these things for us all, even if they are intended specifically, we get to eavesdrop and learn alongside. This is not just here but throughout this forum.Thanks also to Jake, you get a lot of these things started :-D Now that I have you sufficently buttered up...With all that you contribute here Ron, I almost digress to ask this, maybe you could put it in the back of your mind for later;The 3 hours of darkness.Sorry for the interuption, folks.Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

Mike wrote With all that you contribute here Ron, I almost digress to ask this, maybe you could put it in the back of your mind for later;The 3 hours of darkness.Hi MikeIs this a question? or a request for comments?

I was thinking along the lines of exegesis or maybe we could say the x of Jesus?

Hi MikeMy first thought was 'this would take a lot of time', but as I woke this morning the thought came "no, it wouldn't you've already done it".This 3 hours darkness are at the very centre of my understanding of redemption and I have returned to the theme many times. Some on those occasions are in the Download section.There is Psalm 22 which is self standing and relatively short, but for more depth there are two series where I have returned to this this theme. The Three Prayers which is probably the most focused on the real 'Passion of the Christ' and The Baptism which returns to Gethsemene and the Cross to explain why Christ called the Cross 'my baptism'.Those three hours, when the sun was darkened, are the most momentous that our world ever experienced. From midday to 3pm there was darkness over the whole land; the sun was darkened (although astronomically it could not have been an eclipse as it took place at Passover when an eclipse would have been impossible) as the three hours of darkness came to and end the temple veil was split, Christ began what we now know as Psalm 22. "My God, my God why has thou forsaken me". Understanding this statement will reveal the real "Passion of the Christ". Then, just moments later, He lifted up his voice and cried "It is done". This was no last gasp of defeat but a triumph cry that can still be heard in the Spirit. He then breathed out his spirit. The scriptural records of these events do not say he died. Dying is something that 'happens' to a person; He dismissed His spirit.. the work was done. All these events took place at the end of the 3 hours. What happened during the 3 hours? He bore our sins in His body on the tree, He became sin for us, He carried the sins of the world, triumphed gloriously, the horse and the rider he cast into the sea...Oh, I love this theme, and could go on for ever... one day I will. :-P I have a song in my heart that I am going to sing forever.And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.and for ever and ever and ever and ever, and I shall never tire of singing His praises, for ever and ever and ever...

Quote:“I shall never tire of singing His praises, for ever and ever and ever...” Jesus, the very thought of TheeWith sweetness fills the breast;But sweeter far Thy face to see,And in Thy presence rest. ….But what to those who find? Ah, thisNor tongue nor pen can show;The love of Jesus, what it is,None but His loved ones know.Yes indeed. It needs forever and forever and…Thanks, brother, for the post

“My God! My God! Why hast Thou forsaken me?”“How infinitely terrible that He, who had from eternity been in the bosom of the Father, should lose that - not as an act in a play, not as something staged, but as a reality, a terrible soul reality. “T.Austin-Sparks – “The Significance of Christ.” Ch.1Roger

Concerning the available download to which he linked, Ron wrote:“'The Baptism' … returns to Gethsemene and the Cross to explain why Christ called the Cross 'my baptism'.”“When God forsook His Son, that was the final forsaking of man IN CHRIST, - no more forsaking, no more tasting of death for those who are IN CHRIST. Spiritual death is the complete consciousness of what it means to be finally abandoned by God. He tasted that for every man; there is no more of that for those who are in Christ; that death has been swallowed up in Him.”T.Austin-Sparks, :Resurrection: the Hallmark of Sonship” - From “This Ministry” messages given at Honour Oak, V.3Roger

Precisely!A bit of clarification on my comment:I was thinking along the lines of exegesis or maybe we could say the x of Jesus?An older thread in this regards:Chi-Rho As well with this in mind, ChristAnointed, the Greek translation of the Hebrew word rendered “Messiah” (q.v.), the official title of our Lord, occurring five hundred and fourteen times in the New Testament. It denotes that he was anointed or consecrated to his great redemptive work as Prophet, Priest, and King of his people. _________________________Thanks Ron,I know we have touched on this at various times and places throughout this forum and it is an inexhaustable theme. The importance of it is as you stated "This 3 hours darkness are at the very centre of my understanding of redemption and I have returned to the theme many times."My understanding (albeit limited) is the same, if we could but 'capture' this into our very being.All these events took place at the end of the 3 hours. What happened during the 3 hours? He bore our sins in His body on the tree, He became sin for us, He carried the sins of the world, triumphed gloriously, the horse and the rider he cast into the sea...From this I want to extract "What happened during the 3 hours?"The depths of this statement.Surely you touched on them, I still need to pause here and....feel this.“My God! My God! Why hast Thou forsaken me?”Thanks Roger for:“How infinitely terrible that He, who had from eternity been in the bosom of the Father, should lose that - not as an act in a play, not as something staged, but as a reality, a terrible soul reality. “T.Austin-Sparks – “The Significance of Christ.” Ch.1Selah__________________________Lot going on right now and I want to listen to the related messages you have so graciously supplied and We will hear thee again of this matter.(Act 17:32)Oh, I love this theme, and could go on for ever... one day I will. I have a song in my heart that I am going to sing forever.Amen.

This 3 hours darkness are at the very centre of my understanding of redemption and I have returned to the theme many times. Some on those occasions are in the Download section.I'm just trying to process this 3-hours of darkness in relation to redemption so please bear with me and my ponderings.Certainly there is a significant aspect of spiritual death at the Cross, but my limited undertstanding on redemption has the shed blood very much at the center:Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.(Acts 20:28)Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:(1 Peter 1:18-19)And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;(Revelation 5:9)The fruit of His suffering was redemption to God. The price paid for our redemption was the blood of the Lamb. We know that Christ was no mere martyr. As Matthew Henry said;The blood was his as Man; yet so close is the union between the Divine and human nature, that it is there called the blood of God, for it was the blood of Him who is God. This put such dignity and worth into it, as to ransom believers from all evil, and purchase all good.In Christ,Ron

Rons,Words fitly spoken when you said:"What happened during the 3 hours? He bore our sins in His body on the tree, He became sin for us, He carried the sins of the world, triumphed gloriously, the horse and the rider he cast into the sea..."AND"The blood was his as Man; yet so close is the union between the Divine and human nature, that it is there called the blood of God, for it was the blood of Him who is God. This put such dignity and worth into it, as to ransom believers from all evil, and purchase all good."Apples of gold in pictures of silver. Great preaching ya'll! :-) Clutch

inthelight wrote The fruit of His suffering was redemption to God. The price paid for our redemption was the blood of the Lamb. We know that Christ was no mere martyr. As Matthew Henry said;The blood was his as Man; yet so close is the union between the Divine and human nature, that it is there called the blood of God, for it was the blood of Him who is God. This put such dignity and worth into it, as to ransom believers from all evil, and purchase all good.Hi Ronno arguments with any of this but a question. What does the Bible mean by the 'shed blood'? I suppose that those who nailed him were 'blood sprinkled', I presume the soldier that thrust in the spear was covered in it. Did this have any effect upon them?There is nothing magic in the physical element. Even if it had been saved in a glass tube it would have no more significance that any other blood. It could not effect cleansing. It was the 'shedding of the blood' rather than the blood itself that is significant."the blood of the cross" is Bible shorthand for the events that took place at Calvary. It refers not essentially to the physical blood but to the 'life that was in the blood'. The life that was 'in his blood' was nothing less than the life of God Himself. The blood outpoured is Bible language for God having poured out Himself and keeping nothing back to secure our redemption. Of course, there was physical blood, but it is the outward symbol of something inward, just as the physical sufferings were the outward symbol of something inward. The suffering was real, the blood was real, but they were outward signs of the real price that was paid at Calvary.

Hi Ron,No disagreements here either, but MOST "significant" is WHOSE blood was shed.Hebrews 9:11-28"11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.23 ¶ It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."Clutch :-) With help from the Apostle Paul....OOPs. :-P

Will backtrack through all this a bit later.This word is stuck in my thinking:Separation.

eagleswing wroteConcerning the available download to which he linked, Ron wrote:“'The Baptism' … returns to Gethsemene and the Cross to explain why Christ called the Cross 'my baptism'.”Roger, you asked which one from the Three Prayers to chose for folk who only had time to listen to one. If you force me to make a choice I would say No. 4 Gethsemene. There is a hi-bit version on another site which is much easier to listen to if you have a fast enought connection. You will find it at Biblebased Gethsemene. I have been preaching again on this topic this morning and the more I see the less I know. The Life is in the Blood. The value of the blood is the value of the Life. God became man in order to pour Himself out to the last drop, holding nothing back. This is He who loved me and gave Himself for me. When we speak of Christ's blood we are not speaking of something that was His, but of Christ Himself.Again, my feeble efforts are bettered by Wesley:O Love Divine, what has Thou done!The immortal God hath died for me!The Father's co-eternal SonBore all my sins upon the tree:The immortal God for me hath died!My Lord, My Love is crucified.Behold Him, all ye that pass by,The bleeding Prince of Life and Peace!Come see, ye worms, your Maker die,And say, was ever grief like His?Come, feel with me His blood applied:My Lord, My Love is crucified!Is crucified for me and youTo bring us rebels near to God;Believe, believe the record true,We all are bought with Jesu's blood;Pardon for all flows from His side;My Lord, My Love is crucified!Then let us sit beneath His cross,And gladly catch the healing stream,All things for Him account but loss,And give up all our hearts to Him;Of nothing speak of think beside,"My Lord, My Love is crucified!"

"The Life is in the Blood. The value of the blood is the value of the Life. God became man in order to pour Himself out to the last drop, holding nothing back. This is He who loved me and gave Himself for me. When we speak of Christ's blood we are not speaking of something that was His, but of Christ Himself."EXACTLY! Nothing feeble about THAT my brother!Clutch :-)

Still processing and studying all that this entails. Went back through Matt 27 and holding at verse 45,46 crossed back over to Psalm 22...14"...My heart is like wax;It has melted within Me."I know that life is in the blood.I seem to be drawing a different correlation, or am I?Again, seperation.Another comes to mind.And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:Dan 9:26 edit:The blood outpoured is Bible language for God having poured out Himself and keeping nothing back to secure our redemption. Of course, there was physical blood, but it is the outward symbol of something inward, just as the physical sufferings were the outward symbol of something inward.

Is there a difference in meaning for "redeem" and "reconcile." In ChristJeff

JeffThese are wonderfully rich words which would really repay your study, but in a sentence...redeem: focuses on price paid,liberty and new ownershipreconcile: focuses on emnity resolved and fellowshipyou probably know Vine's Expository Dictionary of Bible Words, but there is an online version which I find very handy.you might try your words there katallasso-reconcile various-redeem

Thankyou Ron, I had a quick look at Vine's and then I read quickly through all the verses with redeem or redemption in them. There seems to be an action that God's does time and time again. Reading through the OT and especially Titus, the act of redeeming seems to imply a work of God in us. The idea of purchase seems to imply a work being done. Not an exchange of value. What are your thoughts?In ChristJeff

First, I have read through the last part of this thread. I do not imply that I am clear on the significance of the blood and its' ongoing work. In Leviticus 17, It says the life is in the blood...In Romans 5:11, it says we are "saved by His life."Is the power of the blood in the life, that Jesus gives to us, through the work of the Holy Spirit?In ChristJeff

rookie asks Is the power of the blood in the life, that Jesus gives to us, through the work of the Holy Spirit?I believe it is. God became flesh in order to die but, as we have said before, it was not the intensity of the physical suffering that achieved redemption but the fact that God was pouring out Himself in human life. That life was in the blood.The blood was for God. In Passover terms God had said "when I see the blood I will pass over you". Some evangelicals have adopted the custom of 'covering things with the blood', but the central idea of scripture is that it is God's view of the blood that is significant; not the view of men or demons.The sacrifice of the life of His Son was the necessary and sufficient price to put away sin and satisfy God's righteous wrath against sin and sinner. So it was the life of God poured out through the human life of His Son. As we said before, the value of the blood was the value of the life. There is a very wonderful verse in Acts Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [Acts 20:28] It was His life poured out in death that secured the Church.Your reference to the Spirit is, in my understanding, an important follow through. God has poured out Himself twice; once in blood and once in Spirit. My understanding is that Christ accomplished and the Spirit applies the work of salvation. In each aspect of the God-head's work there is no holding back, but outpouring.

Quote:"Is the power of the blood in the life, that Jesus gives to us, through the work of the Holy Spirit?"Hi Jeff and Ron,In Cbapter 9, 'Life in the Blood' of his book, "The Power of the Blood of Jesus", Andrew Murray also deals with the question.http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/murray/5f00.0572/5f00.0572.08.htmIt has been a great blessing to me, and I welcome the opportunity to pass it on to others,in Him,Roger

Ron."Gethsemane" is one of the most profound, rich, and informative messages I've ever heard. There's much for sober and godly discussion. My wife and I have been working through it for several days. Almost finished. (I'm feeling a bit like a shill, but I really don't mind. (The dictionary says the word is U.S.Slang.))Thanks in our Beloved,Roger

Jake writes Just wondering. . . . If Jesus was identical in nature with God the Father, how is it that He could die? This is part of my view that if this was so, Jesus' physical being could be likened to a puppet, with no free will. If Jesus was a human, endowed with the full spirit of God, He could be "One with the Father" yet not the same as God the Father.As you know, I am of the opinion that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of one nature, but Jesus and the Holy Father are distinct as father and son. They share the same spirit of love, but not the same identity.Hi JakeThis is the mystery (in its proper sense of being a secret) of the incarnation. I am not quite sure what you are expressing in terms of Trinity here. Orthodox evangelicals believe in One God, subsisting in three persons. Co-equal, co-eternal. Older preachers used to say that we must not confound the persons nor divide the substance; that doesn't mean quite what it sounds. It was a way of saying that Father, Spirit and Son are distinct as regards personal identity, but one in nature. Nature here would include God's attributes. The co-equal, co-eternal Son 'became flesh'; that is to say fully human as God originally created human beings - without taint or bias of sin. Hebrews captures His testimony concerning 'incarnation'; a body hast thou prepared me. He then lived His life on earth as a human being, refusing to behave in divine power for His own benefit. Satan said "if you are the Son of God command that these stones be made bread". He was the Son of God and He could have done it, but His reply was "it is written man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.". He determined to live as a human being.To live out His life in the Father's will He suspended the use of His divine powers, other than at the will of His Father. I always do those things that please the Father. John's gospel is full of this unique relationship. This union of God and man was perfect so that at the same time He was fully God and fully man; not 50% of each but 100% of both. Charles Wesley uses these words; "God contracted to a span, incomprehensively made man". Michael Card speaks of Christ's "undiminished deity".He expressly became flesh in order to die. When He had 'finished' His work He breathed out His spirit. But in many ways this is all the outward observable to the human eye. It was the physical outworking of inward spiritual realities where He poured out all that He was to serve God's purpose in redemption.I don't follow the logic of why this makes Christ a puppet. In Gethesemen the Father reached out to Him with the "cup"; the cross with all its suffering. His prayer was that, if possible, the Father would take it away... nevertheless not my will but thine be done. That is no puppet nor is it absence of free will. There have only been two men in the history of the world who truly had 'free will'. One of them sold out the whole race to another god; the Other yielded His will so perfectly to God that He undid all the damage the first man had caused. However for that to become a personal reality the Spirit must enter our beings and unite us in spirit to all that Christ achieved; this is sometimes called Redemption: accomplished and applied.

RogerThanks for your posting. I have absolutely no idea what a 'shill' is but I am glad I gave you and your wife something to share and discuss.As you will have heard me say "Gethsemene is holy ground". In the end we must take off our shoes and just worship.

Having finished listening to Ron’s “Gethsemane” message, it’s striking that the message which was given some time ago responds to the original question, which started this thread.But then again, I shouldn’t be surprised. As Major Ian W. Thomas was (is) fond of saying, to enter into the Christian life is to be “caught up in the timeless purpose of an Eternal God”.Roger“I will give thee thanks in the great congregation: I will praise thee among much people” Psalm 35:18.