The wicked church in America

Does anyone else besides me (and possibly Jay Bird) cringe at all of the posts that refer to the 'wicked unrepentant church in America'?

The church in America is repentant, vibrant, in love with God, on her knees praying, seeking His face in all matters, and sharing the love of Christ to all people.

The problem is that too many unregenerate people claim to be Christians. It is not the church that is the problem, it is the hypocrites who claim the blood of Christ, yet trample on it daily in their lives.

The church in America loves God. God is pleased with the church in America.

It reminds me of a Paul Washer sermon in which a preacher gave a statistic: 70% of born again teenagers do not believe in the resurrection. Paul replies, 'Sir, if they do not believe in the resurrection then how can they be born again.'

Thank you for letting me get that off my chest.

I agree with you. unfortunately, the Church gets blamed for the behavior of false converts.

I agree with you. unfortunately, the Church gets blamed for the behavior of false converts.

...and the backsliders, those who do not keep up with repentance, and those who Jesus rebuked who have fallen away from their first love, you know, the lukewarmers, that God said He will spew out if they don't come back to their first love. seems jesus saw alot of wickedness in the church!

rem·nant (rĕm'nənt)
n.
Something left over; a remainder.
A piece of fabric remaining after the rest has been used or sold.
A surviving trace or vestige: a remnant of his past glory.
A small surviving group of people. Often used in the plural.

The remnant is the Church. The "true Church" that is. Many still believe that the buildings and all the people in them are what makes up the body of Christ.

God Bless

TJ

Are there not three groups, brother Jay? Is there not a group of people who are saved, washed in the Blood of Jesus, and yet through choices to make self first and not God first have become mediocre and backslidden?

I do not believe that their are separate groups in the church as follows: Regenerate on fire, Regenerate lukewarm, unregenerate on fire, unregenerate lukewarm. I see one group in the church: Regenerate. I agree that there are Christian's who slide into a state of complacency. But these individuals are still part of the true vibrant church. These Christian's are being disciplined by God in love in order to bring them closer to Himself.

Hebrews 12:4-6 speaks of this:

"In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. "Make level paths for your feet," so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed."

This discipline is for the Christian's own good. God will not allow them to remain complacent. This is not discipline of condemnation, this is discipline that brings the believer back to God. In Revelation 3:19 Jesus says, "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent."

My own personal testimony is that I do (far more than I want) fall into a state of complacency. But, God in his grace and mercy brings me out of that state.

I say that to now say, 'God is actively bringing all complacent Christians closer to him.' I do not believe that God is sitting back in heaven wondering what to do with this Church problem to which He finally gives up and says 'Oh well, I can't do anything with them so I might as well destroy them all.' We are not under the Old Covenant anymore. 2 Corinthians 5:17-18 says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;"

I make a request, can we discontinue with the 'God will destroy America due to the church's lack of repentance' posts and begin posting the 'each person examine themselves to see whether or not they are in the faith' posts.

I want to highlight a couple of things from this quote:

"Are there not three groups, brother Jay? Is there not a group of people who are saved, washed in the Blood of Jesus, and yet through choices to make self first and not God first have become mediocre and backslidden? I'm thinking of a message by Keith Daniel, Protection From Backsliding, the first step to backsliding is entering the day without soaking yourself in God's Word. This is the church of God that needs revival! This is the church for which I am burdened. And those who are revived and real with God will be burdened for their fellow brethren to get right with God, because is it not the glory of God that is at stake here? We are the Bride of Christ, it is possible for our garments to be dirty, but the Blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse away ALL filthiness.:

[color=3300CC]This is the church of God that needs revival! This is the church for which I am burdened. And those who are revived and real with God will be burdened for their fellow brethren to get right with God, because is it not the glory of God that is at stake here?[/color]

This is awesome love. I see this as the real issue. This quote is the heart of the Father. What is our heart in the condition of the church. Does it burden us to get on our knees and repent ourselves to identify with the condition as Daniel did:

Dan 9:8 O Lord, to us [belongeth] confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.

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Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

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Dan 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

[color=0000CC]We need to see the body is one and:[/color]

Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

1Cr 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

* I feel we have a great responsibility toward any that are stuggling and even those who are messed up or lost. Those going through the motions, or have an outward sign of being a Christian are important to God.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Lord has given us a pattern of what we are supposed to do if we see a brother taken in a sin, I'm sure that includes the sins spoken of in this forum.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

I think the mistake we often make is in not following these guidelines. How many of us really go and approach our brother in love and make every effort to get them on the right path? More often we point out thier faults to others and write them off in our lives as unworthy.

We need to repent and do what the word says in love. Our heart should be that we would rather die than see our brother miss all that God has for him or her. Brokeness over their condition should move our hearts to share the truth with them in love. We need to prophecy to dry bones and see God bring life. We need to declare God's word over their situations and see them set free. What are we doing with the wicked church. Does our heart bleed like it is our own mother or child? Well if we are one body is should.

I don't want to judge the hearts of brothers and sisters, but I do want to have a part in speaking the word to help them be all God wants them to be.

I am actually walking in fear and trembling because the very ones I might be apt to judge on the basis of my limited knowledge by be doing the works that Christ commends.

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

and to those who prophecied and healed and cast out demons He might say, I never knew you.

Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

We need to be laying our lives down for others and being careful not to condemn them.

[color=0066FF]I am not saying the doesn't have many ugly blemishes, but I am asking what should we do with that information?[/color]

You're right Jay! How can we say the church is dead, truly? Or not alive? How dare we... It is alive! Jesus died for the church, and how can we say it not alive and trample upon it? For the church, in truth, is concerning the remnant everywhere, in the midst of the institutional-church etc., who are seeking God for his glory, and there are many many of them! :-)

Jordan

yes, the people are the church, and many are filthy and in need of a deep cleansing. the ephesus were considered God's people. they lost their first love. meaning they were once there and now they are not and in need of coming back or else. God rebuked them of their lukewarmness. means that God's people can backslide to lukewarmness and in need of a strong rebuke.

just like today's churches (christians). they are like the ephesus church. many were once there, but now they have lost their first love, backsliding to lukewarmness and in need of repentance.

and what about the laodiceans? they were neither hot or cold. God treated them as His own. He told the laodiceans that as many as i love, i rebuke and chasten. we know the Lord only discipline His children. God spoke to His own and said that He will vomit them out if they do not repent. thats pretty intense!

i can kinda understand why he was so hard to the lukewarmers. they are the ones who allow wolves and false converts in God's house.

today's churches are in need of strong rebuke just like the churches in revelation. true prophets are needed to cry out repent to the church (christians) and expose their nakedness (filth) that they may see their need to be clothed in Him,to be revived AGAIN to Him.

I think that if we can begin to move away from the idea that "the church" is a building, we are beginning to see something wonderful!
With that said, I would like to ask humbly whan did God give His stamp of approval to what we call church(buildings etc)?
It is really beginning to sink into my heart that we may have substituted one form of popery for another. By this I mean that in most "churches" there is one man whose interpretations of the Scriptures are what everyone must go with to be on the team. This leads to division with the other groups in the town, because they believe that everything they believe is "the truth" and therefore everyone else is wrong or less spiritual. But the Scriptures tell us "the Head of every man is Christ". He is my authority, He is my Teacher.
What we call "church" is a system that for the most part does not exist to bring people under the Headship of Christ, but rather under the headship of man. The system is flawed and people suffer because of it.
I firmly believe there must be another "reformation" where the people are given the Scriptures, and men preach and serve to bring men to Christ not to themselves, and not because they can gain something from them. If you think about it what happens most of the time when you meet another Christian(professing or otherwise)? The first question out is, "where do you go to church?, or "where do you fellowship?"
Then if you dare to say something other than what they want to hear, it is greeted with, "you should come to my church" but, and here is the problem, if we are both in the Body of Christ are we not the Church? It's people, not temples made with hands, but temples of flesh in which God dwells.
Forgive if I am rambling, but this is something God has really been burning into my heart. :-)

Dear roaringlamb,

You are absolutely correct that the church is a living entity not a building. I we would recognise this fact we would have an unseemed fellowship with each other. Good point.

12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body.

1Cr 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

1Cr 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

1Cr 12:23 And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.

1Cr 12:24 For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked:

1Cr 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another.

1Cr 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

1Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

It is difficult to see how it all fits together, I think that is why folks opt for the easy way of "we have always done it this way" rather than seeking what God might approve of.
It's the joy of being in the "family of God" that should bring us together. I know that even in my natural family, if I am upset with a family member, it is almost impossible to hold a grudge against them for very long, but how much more under the all seeing eye of our Father in Heaven?
Then of course we must also point out that there needs to be discernment as to who is in the Family, and who is not. For instance, if someone came to my front door, and began to tell me that they were in my family, yet could not declare how they were in my family, I would have doubts about their sincerity. But if someone had the "birthmarks" of being in my family, then boy oh boy, how sweet it would be to get to know them!!

K= keep I= it S= simple S= stupid (this one isn't really my choice of word but it is the way the saying goes, sorry if it offends anyone it's not meant to.)

I love truths conveyed in simplistic manner. People are more apt to rember them. Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. There has always been 2 types of people in the congregation, the upright who fear the Lord and thoughs who don't, not all Israel i Israel. I personally believe that the churches in Revelation are ever present all here now, in that respect I don't follow dispensationalists.
BTW hypocrisy is a picture word in the NT and is that of a play actor, someone who is one thing in church and another at home and another in thier respective work places, one person many faces.

As to your opening statement I agree, much is wrong with the American church, but much is right also
:-)

Roniya's: And those who are revived and real with God will be burdened for their fellow brethren to get right with God, because [u]is it not the glory of God that is at stake here?[/u] We are the Bride of Christ, it is possible for our garments to be dirty, but the Blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse away ALL filthiness.

I think of Romans 1:21 and the people who did not honor God [u]as[/u] God. I think this is what is mainly at stake; that folk consider themselves Christians but have not exalted God [u]as[/u] God. I think this is a product of a multitude of spurious conversions.

I hear over and over again that people are 'against' the Church if they speak up against things that are going on. I do not agree with that unless the person is intentionally coming against the Church for the sake of tearing her down. We need to provoke one another to love and to good works. Sometimes that requires bringing up certain goings on such as A.W. Tozer pointed out. People have lost their sense of being born again and have yielded to logical deductions drawn from proof texts.

Roniya's: And those who are revived and real with God will be burdened for their fellow brethren to get right with God, because [u]is it not the glory of God that is at stake here?[/u] We are the Bride of Christ, it is possible for our garments to be dirty, but the Blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse away ALL filthiness.

I think of Romans 1:21 and the people who did not honor God [u]as[/u] God. I think this is what is mainly at stake; that folk consider themselves Christians but have not exalted God [u]as[/u] God. I think this is a product of a multitude of spurious conversions.

I hear over and over again that people are 'against' the Church if they speak up against things that are going on. I do not agree with that unless the person is intentionally coming against the Church for the sake of tearing her down. We need to provoke one another to love and to good works. Sometimes that requires bringing up certain goings on such as A.W. Tozer pointed out. People have lost their sense of being born again and have yielded to logical deductions drawn from proof texts.

Dear Roaringlamb,

What we call "church" is a system that for the most part does not exist to bring people under the Headship of Christ, but rather under the headship of man.

Sometime ago I encountered a group of believers from Nigeria. They were in a shopping center in the neighborhood I lived in passing out literature. After talking to one of them, they invited me to come and meet the pastor, so I did.

As we all talked together the pastor made a point which I think was along the same lines as what you stated here. He brought up the question of why the soldiers, when they came to arrest the Lord Jesus, had to ask who He was. Why, was it, so his point seemed to be, that it was not [b]obvious[/b].

I firmly believe there must be another "reformation" where the people are given the Scriptures, and men preach and serve to bring men to Christ not to themselves, and not because they can gain something from them.

One of the things I found so refreshing about the ministry of Ray Comfort was this very emphasis, that of seeking to introduce people to the saviour, apart from any other motives. Before this I had become very frustrated with the idea of seeking to get people to come to [i]Church[/i], something which was strongly emphasised in the congregation I attended.

Chris

I actually just wrote this in a post today:

I think it’s good to be reminded about the impact we can have on the atheist. After all statistics say that 85% of America claim to be Christian/believers of God, which is complete falicy. As has been claimed by several preachers/evangelists, I to venture to say that only 13% of America may be a true follower of Christ. So what does this mean? Not only are there a mass number of non-believers and atheists that walk the streets of America, but our churches are sick - full of people who don’t have a clue, and pastors who cut and paste their own ideology into Scripture and call it truth.

How sad it is that America has a sick church. ‘The church’ is supposed to be the healthy place for the sick to come to, but it has now become sick itself and very contagious. America has a high percentage of supposed believers because America looks at the church and sees that it isn’t much different then itself. For example… I know a couple that claim to be Christian because they voted for Bush. It doesn’t matter that he looks at porn or is an alcoholic. As long as he and his wife go to church on Easter and Christmas and send a number of “Christian” email fwds. every few months, then he “knows” he is heavenbound. Our churches are filled with much of the similiar. Sure we have the congregants that consistantly attend, but it’s “ok” to consistantly sin, because after all God is full of grace and will forgive everytime we do it. And many pastors follow this same pattern.

I wrote this, also knowing that, yes, there are some vibrant, living churches in America, however I think the church in general is walking a very thin line in what Scripture actually says and what we want Scripture to say, so that it makes us feel a little easier about the sin we partake of on a daily basis.

I think part of the reason for the carnality in the church in the USA is because it costs us very little in comparison to the church in other countries, many of which can cost them thier lives. I believe that difficult times ahead will cause us to re-evaluate how much and what our faith means to us. In the face of persecution and death what choices will we make. It will separate the sheep from the goats.

I know a couple that claim to be Christian because they voted for Bush. It doesn’t matter that he looks at porn or is an alcoholic. As long as he and his wife go to church on Easter and Christmas and send a number of “Christian” email fwds. every few months, then he “knows” he is heavenbound.

These people do not constitute the Church of Christ. God does not factor these people in when he is dealing with the Church. These are lost people who claim salvation but they are under the wrath of God. It is not right to say that God will punish the Church for the sins of the world.

Honestly, why would God punish the Church for the world's sins?

I hear over and over again that people are 'against' the Church if they speak up against things that are going on. I do not agree with that unless the person is intentionally coming against the Church for the sake of tearing her down. We need to provoke one another to love and to good works. Sometimes that requires bringing up certain goings on such as A.W. Tozer pointed out. People have lost their sense of being born again and have yielded to logical deductions drawn from proof texts.

Friends,

God IS moving in America. I am seeing a stirring in the prayer meetings here in NYC. Once a month in NY pastors are getting together at Times Square Church to pray for revival.

Prayer meetings among college students and young adults (sometimes at my own home once a month) there is a great stirring. People are hungry and crying out for God.

While I agree there is an apostasy, a need to repent, and sin rampant in the church around hte states - I also know firsthand that God is stirring people.

Revival starts with our hearts. Are we mature enough and revived enough in God to rebuke? If so then by all means do so. But otherwise seek God to revive your own heart.

Revival starts individually before its corporate.

I only see two classifications of people in the Bible: saved and unsaved.

1 John. 2:4 "He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." A hypocrite isn't saved.

In any given church building, there are saved and unsaved mingled together like the wheat and tares or sheep and goats. Of course, God isn't fooled. He'll sort us all out at the end of the age. The wheat, sheep, and wise virgins represent the true church.

"Hell's Best Kept Secret" by Ray comfort informed my thinking greatly on this topic.

I think part of the reason for the carnality in the church in the USA is because it costs us very little in comparison to the church in other countries, many of which can cost them thier lives.

In my own understanding, I see that confronting the sin in the church in love through the power of the Holy Spirit is something the prophets of old did time and time again. Their hope was not condemnation but rather repentance. I agree with Habakkuk who said "In wrath, remember mercy."

there has always been two forces at work within the church.

the old testament shows the nation israel against the prophets.

even in the early church you had annanias and saphire.

Paul addressed the corinthian church with love and yes rebuke...but not leaving them hopeless and condemned...but admonished with correction.

Jesus addressed seven churches in the book of The Revelation Of Jesus Christ and pointed out there many faults and sins....but with love instructed them to repent and gave them hope and confidence in his grace if they would.

God IS moving in America. I am seeing a stirring in the prayer meetings here in NYC. Once a month in NY pastors are getting together at Times Square Church to pray for revival. Prayer meetings among college students and young adults (sometimes at my own home once a month) there is a great stirring. People are hungry and crying out for God.

Yes, there is a strirring here also! Oh brothers and sisters, lets feed the flame and pour ourselves out in intercession for the name of the Lord to be glorified in our generation.

In Christ,

Ron

"A hypocrite isn't saved"

While being hypocritical sure isn't fitting for a saint, I would be careful in saying someone who's hypocritical ISN'T SAVED. That's a radical statement that needs careful examination of the Word.

Peter acted hypocritically in Galatians 2:11, when Paul confronted him regarding his attitude towards the Gentiles when he wanted to impress the Jews. Does that mean Peter wasn't saved?

I'm not excusing hypocritical behavior - it's a grievance to the Lord and God hates all pretense. However, let's weigh our statements.

Words carry weight.

hypocritical behavior >>>>I posted this somewhere I forget where now, that the term was used as one who was [b] A play Actor [/b] , some who showed one thing to the collective body of believers and was entirely something different at home in front of thier spouse and children, and could altogether something different at work. I just added this to what you guys/gals were saying to add some color I guess to what has already been said. God Bless

JaySaved wrote:

I know a couple that claim to be Christian because they voted for Bush. It doesn’t matter that he looks at porn or is an alcoholic. As long as he and his wife go to church on Easter and Christmas and send a number of “Christian” email fwds. every few months, then he “knows” he is heavenbound.

These people do not constitute the Church of Christ. God does not factor these people in when he is dealing with the Church. These are lost people who claim salvation but they are under the wrath of God. It is not right to say that God will punish the Church for the sins of the world.

Honestly, why would God punish the Church for the world's sins?

I was merely reflecting upon the statistic falicy that 85% of America claims to be Christian.

However, I will say that there a mass number of "Christians" who think in a slite similiar fashion, in that they can get away with pretty much anything and still go to heaven because of God's grace. Basically it is radical abuse of God's grace.

God is blessing the church in America.

God is individually correcting and disciplining Christians who need it (Find myself in this position too often), but He is pleased with and loves the true church that is made up of Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Church of Christ, Non-Denominational, Inter-Denominational, etc. people who love the Lord Jesus and are committed to bring glory and honor to his name.

God will judge the secular, godless American society but He will not punish the church because of said society.

JaySaved wrote:
God will judge the secular, godless American society but He will not punish the church because of said society.

Honestly, why would God punish the Church for the world's sins?

You're right in that God won't punish "the Church" for the world's sins. My point is to only say that much of "the church" (not capatilized on purpose) has become worldly. I can think of numerous pastors and congregations that delight in feeding upon their own ideologies and false philisophical understandings and interpretations instead of the Truth (i.e. Jay Baker for example. He's a smoker and an alcohol drinker at the pulpit, while preaching, and is also pro-gay; He professes that God created them that way, and that nowhere in Scripture does it say that God is against the gay lifestyle.) Jay is just one of many examples I believe much of "the church" has become no different then the world.

Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[color=6600CC]What is the will of God?[/color]

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Goldminer wrote:
Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[color=6600CC]What is the will of God?[/color]

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Well said Goldminer. Well said. THAT is the TRUTH of Scripture.

jay, what do you think of the laodiceans in rev.?

are they God's people?

It has been fun watching this post, and many wonderful points have been made. May I point out though that "judgement begins at the house of God". Therefore I would ask us to look back at the Old Testament for a moment, and see that though God had judgement stored up for the nations surrounding Israel, His primary concern was the group that was chosen to bear His name and show forth His glory to the world around them. This sadly did not happen, and instead they(Israel) began to emulate the nations they were to be a witness to.
It was at this time that God Himself decided they needed to be judged, and it was by the nations around them like Babylon, and Assyria.
So now since He is God and He changes not, can we assume based on Scripture that He may do something similar today?
We must move away from the idea that "church" is a building that God blesses or builds, or adds to. This has nothing to do with The Church. There are brethren who are in caves right this moment who have not seen another Christian perhaps in their lives, and they are part of The Church. I think if we continue to look at it as a building, then it becomes something that man can and will manipulate, and ultimately corrupt. Yet if we take a Scriptural stand on a "mystical" house made up of living stones, which has Christ for Her King and Head, then we will see the danger and sheer audacity of anyone to do anything to Her without His permission and guidance. We will also begin to see the greatness of Her parts, and have a greater respect for eve the uncomely parts :).
Remember that you cannot attach new cloth to the old, and I think in some ways this applies to how the church is today. For the most part it has become a system controlled by men, and to keep up the "appearance of godliness", they use Scriptures, and make everyone feel warm and fuzzy, "but deny the power therof". Now are all like this? absolutely not, but do all have the danger of becoming like this? absolutely.

jay, what do you think of the laodiceans in rev.? are they God's people?

I have already stated that Christians can slide into a state of complacency and lukewarmness. They key verse to the Laodiceans is Revelation 3:19, "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent."

God will not allow the Christians to remain in a state of complacency and lukewarmness. God never has and He never will.

My question is this, 'Would God destroy all seven churches mentioned in Revelation simply because the Laodicean church was lukewarm?'

roaringlamb wrote:
We must move away from the idea that "church" is a building that God blesses or builds, or adds to. This has nothing to do with The Church. There are brethren who are in caves right this moment who have not seen another Christian perhaps in their lives, and they are part of The Church. I think if we continue to look at it as a building, then it becomes something that man can and will manipulate, and ultimately corrupt. Yet if we take a Scriptural stand on a "mystical" house made up of living stones, which has Christ for Her King and Head, ...

While, even in my own statements, I was clarifying, to some degree, the church as being individuals, I believe there is a difference in "The Body" (which means everybody and the individual), and "The Church." Scripture also states that it is good for followers to come together and fellowship and meet, which is why there is also, "The Church." I believe it is ok for "The Church" to still be classified to a degree of structure and building, because after all, were there not synagoges, and Tents of Meeting all throughout Scripture? Would those not be buildings or structure, or am I mistaken!?

JaySaved wrote:

My question is this, 'Would God destroy all seven churches mentioned in Revelation simply because the Laodicean church was lukewarm?'

Jay, I believe you might be misunderstanding what some of us are saying. Of course God would not destroy all seven churches for the sins of one church. However, God will still sift through each church and seperate the clean from the unclean.

But unfortunately, there will be many a church today that would be sifted through and there would be little to none that God would consider 'clean.'

BenBrockway wrote:
But unfortunately, there will be many a church today that would be sifted through and there would be little to none that God would consider 'clean.'

Ummm.... this might be misinterpreted. Sorry. I just caught it. What I am saying is that there will be many churches where God will divide the clean from the unclean in each church and many who would call themselves "saved", God would call unclean.

I hope that this makes things a bit more clearer.

a degree of structure and building

God will not allow the Christians to remain in a state of complacency and lukewarmness. God never has and He never will.

i agree. He will not allow us to stay there. God was telling the loadiceans (His children) that they must repent or else God will vomit them out. they had two choices. either they repent of lukewarmness or God will vomit them out.

you said in your first post that the church of God is vibrant and filled with blessings. i am just wanting to show you that not all are vibrant, but many of His children are very wicked just like the laodiceans. 2 chronicles God said if MY PEOPLE will humble themselves and turn from their WICKED WAYS.....the children of God can fall into wickedness. this shows that strong prophectic rebuke is needed even for TODAY. not all wicked people in the house of God are false converts and wolves. there are many CHRISTIANS who are also wicked and in need of repentance or else.

and we know that the laodiceans are God's children because He says concerning the laodiceans that those who i love i rebuke and dicipline. we know God only disciplines His children. God told His children that He will vomit them out because of lukewarmness then after that He told them to be zealous and repent.

My question is this, 'Would God destroy all seven churches mentioned in Revelation simply because the Laodicean church was lukewarm?'

no, but just like in old testament, the prophets cried out to all of isreal, i'm sure there were a few obeying God. just like paul says all cretans are liars. did paul meant ALL of cretans? i'm sure paul meant the majority. just like you hear prophectic voices today saying the church is wicked. do they mean all of God's people? no, i don't believe, but just the majority.

Jay, I believe you might be misunderstanding what some of us are saying. Of course God would not destroy all seven churches for the sins of one church. However, God will still sift through each church and separate the clean from the unclean.

I agree with that statement. Your statement differs from the statements that caused myself to start this thread. I am posting against the notion that God will destroy America because the church in America is too wicked and unrepentant.

JaySaved wrote:
I am posting against the notion that God will destroy America because the church in America is too wicked and unrepentant.

I agree with you there. Much of the church is wicked and unrepentant, but I don't believe that God would basically destroy ALL of America and everyone in it. I do think that America is in dire need of a wake up call, though.

the church IN america are suppose to be a light to america, just like isreal was suppose to be a light to others. just like isreal, many christians are not a light, but have mix themselves with pagans.

(i'm speaking only of american cvhristians, i'm sure their are many problems with churches in other countries)

you agree that there are many christians who are lukewarm?

well, because of lukewarmness this has caused sin to abound in church. the majority are not lights of Christ giving hope to the world, but they are whoring with the world and in need of repentance (just like the laodicean church). because many are lukewarm this has brought shame to Jesus's name!

roaringlamb wrote:
but Christ is the Chief Cornerstone and the Plumline for everything that is built after that.

but of course! :-D

myfirstLove wrote:
the church IN america are suppose to be a light to america, just like isreal was suppose to be a light to others. just like isreal, many christians are not a light, but have mix themselves with pagans.

(i'm speaking only of american cvhristians, i'm sure their are many problems with churches in other countries)

you agree that there are many christians who are lukewarm?

well, because of lukewarmness this has caused sin to abound in church. the majority are not lights of Christ giving hope to the world, but they are whoring with the world and in need of repentance (just like the laodicean church). because many are lukewarm this has brought shame to Jesus's name!

I couldn't have said it better, myself! amen, Amen, and AMEN!!!! :-D ;-)

but they are whoring with the world and in need of repentance

Much of the church is wicked and unrepentant,

I strongly disagree with that statement. You are lumping the false believers in with the true believers. Yes, both groups might meet in the same building, but the false believers are NOT part of the church.

well, because of lukewarmness this has caused sin to abound in church. the majority are not lights of Christ giving hope to the world, but they are whoring with the world and in need of repentance (just like the laodicean church). because many are lukewarm this has brought shame to Jesus's name!

Yes, Christians can be lukewarm, but it is not the epidemic you make it out to be. See my above post on the fact that many non-believers meet in 'church buildings'. They are not the church and should not be categorized as the church. The church of Christ is strong, vibrant and in love with Christ. The true church stands against sin and does not permit it to run rampant. True Christians do not go 'whoring' about with the world. Yes, they might mess up and sin, but they do not make a practice of it.

I want to make my position perfectly clear. You may disagree but that is fine.

The church in which Jesus is the head does not contain a single unbeliever. Yes, unbelievers come to buildings that contain members of the universal church but this does not mean that these unbelievers are part of the church.

Just because someone walks down and aisle, repeats a prayers and signs a membership card, does not mean that they are believers or part of the church.

It is this true church that may slide into sin but God will rebuke and discipline. God is not going to destroy this church simply because some false believers live like the world.

It is this true church that may slide into sin but God will rebuke and discipline. God is not going to destroy this church simply because some false believers live like the world.

JaySaved wrote:

Just because someone walks down and aisle, repeats a prayers and signs a membership card, does not mean that they are believers or part of the church.

That is essentially what I am saying. I guess there are two different ways of looking at the Church. If we were to look through the eyes of God, you would be right in that there is ultimately one "Church." However since we cannot look through His eyes, then America's perception of church may be a little scewed. After all, Scripture states,
"Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So, I think that that is why there is two classes of people within the American church (and the Church as a whole.) There will be many that will have done many great things (in our view), and yet, God will say otherwise. Which is why I stated that God will separate the clean from the unclean.

roaringlamb wrote:

It is this true church that may slide into sin but God will rebuke and discipline. God is not going to destroy this church simply because some false believers live like the world.

That is exactly why I say we should stop referring to the buildings as churches. The Church cannot be destroyed! Purified yes as you have pointed out. I am reminded of two scriptures
"whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth", and also when Christ said to one of the seven Churches in Revelation, "whom I love I rebuke, and chasten. Be zealous therefore and repent."
In the Hebrews passage I quoted from it even goes on to say that if you are without chastening, then you are illegitimate, or as the KJV says "bastards".
Chastening is a sign of our Father's dealings with us, to drive out what remains of self. Kinda makes you wonder about the "entire sanctification" thing Huh? Oops wrong thread, just musing aloud. :-D

I think that this is were the words used in Scripture come in, though, about "The Body." I think your meshing both "The Body" and "the church" into one in the same definition. There are differences. What you're referring to, I feel should be defined as "The body."

Just my thought. ;-)

EDIT:
Duplicate post.

I think that this is were the words used in Scripture come in, though, about "The Body." I think your meshing both "The Body" and "the church" into one in the same definition. There are differences. What you're referring to, I feel should be defined as "The body."

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

I don't see any difference between 'The Body' and 'The church'. I consider the church to be the body of Christ.

The problem comes when we refer to the Body/Church as including unbelievers.

JaySaved wrote:

I think that this is were the words used in Scripture come in, though, about "The Body." I think your meshing both "The Body" and "the church" into one in the same definition. There are differences. What you're referring to, I feel should be defined as "The body."

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

I don't see any difference between 'The Body' and 'The church'. I consider the church to be the body of Christ.

The problem comes when we refer to the Body/Church as including unbelievers.

Ok. Thank you. I digress. ;-) I was wrong. Thank you for clearing that up for me. I hadn't looked up the Scripture, and forgot that the "church" was included in those same verses. My mistake, and I apologize.
:-)

JaySaved wrote:

The problem comes when we refer to the Body/Church as including unbelievers.

Agreed.... COMPLETELY!

So, then what we have to do is go back and see how God views His church...His People.
He is well-pleased with them because they are in Christ Jesus.

I completely agree.

Yep. Me too.

So, then what we have to do is go back and see how God views His church...His People.

So, then what we have to do is go back and see how God views His church…His People

Wouldn't this mean going back and reading Revelation, chapters 2&3?

Wouldn't this mean going back and reading Revelation, chapters 2&3?

So, then what we have to do is go back and see how God views His church…His People

Wouldn't this mean going back and reading Revelation, chapters 2&3?

yes! and no one has commented what i shared about the laodicean church.

the thing is, we all believe that christians can backslide to lukewarmness. what does lukewarmness do to the body of Christ and how is that effecting our surrounding when we are lukewarm?

lukewarm is not to be taken lightly. God said He will vomit us out if we remain lukewarm, and this he said to HIS CHILDREN.

the body in america is surely not a light to the world right now. i can't even find a few who are really being true witnesses of His truth, not just only preaching it, but being the message.

Careful here :

i can't even find a few who are really being true witnesses of His truth, not just only preaching it, but being the message.

America still has more missionaries all over the world than any other country in the world,

numbers mean nothing. how many of those missionaries are really sold out? we don't know, only God knows. i just know the ones i met, and i won't go into that.

giving money away is good too. but, we're judging again on quantity, we really don't know the quality of the heart. we can safely say america is FULL of quantity. i just know china has revivals and we don't. many chinese christians are giving their life away. its easier to give money away than your life.

i'm not saying there is no mature christians in america, i'm just saying i don't know of any, and it seems like a lot of people on christian forums are having a hard time connecting with one too. i'm sure there are some mature christians in america, but not many.

america is full of churches too than any other country. what does that mean?

mahoney, i'm really not clear about what you are saying.

i know i've backslided into lukewarmness too, and was in apathy. and i know it was all my fault because i did not abide in Him like His word commanded me too and thats why i fell away for a short time. but, if we would believe, take heed to His commandments and learn to abide in Him daily, it would save us a lot of pain from self. the more we are in Him the more it gets harder to backslide. i hope that make sense to you. but, if we are not going from faith to faith and glory to glory, moving forward to maturity, we will be toss here and there with every wind of doctrine, fleshly desires and dependence on man, and that is called immaturity, and many christians are still at that immatuarity stage.

.....and if we do come back, seeing the wicked state of our lukewarmness, and cry out to Him, He will show Himself merciful. but, let it not be too late. just like in hebrews, while it said, TODAY if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts, as in the rebellion.

our hearts can get so hard with sin that it can makes it very hard to come back to Him. thats when i encourage others, you must first, break up your fallow ground.

God bless

I don't see a profile on you, so where exactly are you from? What country do you reside in now?

Do you understand this scripture?

our hearts can get so hard with sin that it can makes it very hard to come back to Him. thats when i encourage others, you must first, [b] break up your fallow ground. [/b]

Dear myfirstLove,

I am only going to say a bit about your entry about the Laodacean church.

Interestingly enough today I listened to a preaching CD by Steve Thompson of MorningStar Ministries entitled " Laodacean".

I will not try to remember to you the entire CD but if you call MS I am sure you could get a copy. It was very good. But the thing that stood out the most to me was his description of what Jesus was saying was that He didn't want us lukewarm. He used the picture of, if you take a piece of ice and lay it out at room temperature it will melt and become the same temp as it's surroundings and if you take a glowing ember and lay it out at room temp it too will take on the temp of it's surroundings. He said the only way to stay hot or cold was to stay connected to the source. That when we live in this world and don't stay connected to the source we take on the temp. of the world around us, but when we stay connected to God we will bring cool refreshment in a dry and thirsty land and fire that will ignite fire in those around us.

He said that he didn't believe Jesus was saying He was going spit out believers who were struggling or weak, but He wanted us to stay connected to the source so we don't become like the environment around us. Therefore we must abide in Him.

I thought it was good food for thought. I plan to chew on it a bit.

is this rick joyner's ministry?

yes, i'm going to have to listen to this message. i don't see the verses about the laodiceans saying it in that way.

if its rick joyner, He's really soft on repentance, sin, and hell. not saying he's a false teacher, but He does have some beliefs that are way out there. but, this is steve thompson. i'm still a little uncomfortable about listening to him too if he is connected with rick joyner.

thankyou for sharing, though.

God bless

What is does Laodacean mean?

thanks corey.

this was what i had to do when i backslid with the Lord (breaking up my fallow ground). my heart was so hard, that it made it hard for me to come back to the Lord. i knew i was in sin, and in need of repentance, but my heart was so hard that i couldn't just easily say, Lord forgive me, and just go on with Him. i knew i had sin in the way, and must do a deep confession, in order to be granted repentance. i must allow the Lord to break me down, that way my heart will be soft again.

i spent a whole day crying out to God, confessing every sin that God showed me i had. and when i confess, i would not just do it flippantly, but meditate on the motive behind each sin, and thru that i saw how evil and wicked i was! God led me to this kind of meditation, to break the pride of my heart and make me see i can do NOTHING with out Him. i cried out, seeking Him ferverently until i knew He granted me repentance. i left the room feeling at peace with God, and from then on, His word was open to me, He poured out His revelation of His word to me once again! and i continue on allowing Him to continue breaking me down more. i even made public confession sharing how i was a hypocrite. God showed me how i was a pharisee. had the outward appearance, but was filthy inside. and now, i can say, i am clean inside, please know i am not boasting. my mind is not at war like it use to be, and i do not lust over anything or anyone. God truly set me free!

dohzman, i live in texas.

What is does Laodacean mean?

It is a term used to describe a lukewarm Christian. It comes from Jesus' warning to the Laodician church in Revelation 3.

Listen to this : 1Co 13:4 Love has long patience, is kind; love is not emulous of others ; love is not insolent and rash, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 does not behave in an unseemly manner, does not seek what is its own, is not quickly provoked, [b] does not impute evil [/b] ,
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice at iniquity but rejoices with the truth,
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, [b] hopes all things [/b] , endures all things.

1Co 13:8 Love never fails;

I know of some here in the states who love the Lord with all thier heart mind soul and strength. I know some who have laid down thier lives and because of that committment are now present with the Lord. Then I hear people talk down the WIFE of another (the bride of Christ) as if they had the answers but in reality they are not even affecting the church or society where they live, and I use great restraint here. I hear from heaven the voice of reason speaking against the sin of envy and jealousy. I know that it's out of Love that many in america daily lay down thier lives for the bride of Christ and for the Bride Groom. Some will see the glass as half empty, but I chose to see it as half full, some see the church in all its filthy rags but I chose to see the church with all its potential. Some will say the Lord is coming to recieve His bride who looks like a dirty bagger in need of a seriuos make over, but I believe Christ will come for an overcoming remnant who did much damage to the kingdom of darkness and that remnant will enter into the joy of the Lord for all eternity.
I'll be honest here, until you have laid down your life for the Body of Christ on a dialy consistant basis, I don't feel its prudent to cast judgements on that body of Christ (please hear that phrase correctly). Psa 50:16 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant into thy mouth,
Psa 50:17 Seeing thou hast hated correction and hast cast my words behind thee?
Psa 50:18 When thou sawest a thief, thou didst take pleasure in him, and thy portion was with adulterers;
Psa 50:19 Thou lettest thy mouth loose to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit;
Psa 50:20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother, thou revilest thine own mother's son:
Psa 50:21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; [b] thou thoughtest that I was altogether as thyself [/b] : but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. I see God, soveriegn and in control.
Ilove the church, I have , am and will lay down my life for The bride of my Lord Jesus' Christ. I acknowledge so much that is wrong but my faith scales all those obsticles because I believe that God The Holy Spirit can do so much more than my limited prayers offered will see accomplished. There's alot wrong with the american church but there's alot right too. Love thinketh no evil, either become part of the answer or become silent, that way you'll avoid the every idle word.

I think we need to remember the difference between Christians who sin and the world who sins.

I have said this many times: Christians slide into sin. They disobey God but they do not remain in sin because 1) They hate to sin against God. 2) God does not let His children remain in that state.

The world sins gladly and remains in their sinful state willingly. They have no desire to please God.

Now, the world has infiltrated gatherings of Christians. This is why your average church building on Sunday Morning contains so many people who do not live or desire to please God.

Many of the world claim to be born again, especially in America. But to use the words of John the Baptist, 'Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.' (Matt 3:8). This is why when someone like Barna does a poll he finds that 80% of born again evangelicals do not believe in Jesus' virgin birth. Or 90% of born again teenagers do not believe in absolute truth. This is why polls show that the church in America is no different than the secular culture. Because the secular culture has skewed the church's poll numbers.

So, what does the church do? Do we kick everyone out who we determine is not living up to a Christian standard? No, we do what God is allowing to happen. Matthew 13 describes this:
24He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?' 28He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' 29But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

In conclusion,
We are not to be alarmed that unbelievers are claiming to be in the church. God knows who are His and He will judge accordingly. What is required of Christians is to be a light in the world and to proclaim the gospel. We are to judge ourselves and abide in Christ.

If God destroys America then praise His glorious name. If God rains fire from heaven and destroys the entire world, then praise His glorious name. But, I refuse to believe that just because hypocrites are in the church God is going to cause America's economy to plummet.

numbers mean nothing. how many of those missionaries are really sold out? we don't know, only God knows. i just know the ones i met, and i won't go into that.

I would exercise caution with statements like this. You may have met some people who had improper motives for mission work, but I admire all men and women who serve in missions (from improper motives or proper motives). My thoughts are similar to those of Paul:

Philippians 1
"15Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 16The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice."

i believe i did exercise caution. i didn't say they were all wrong, ONLY the ones i met. aren't we being judgemental too when we say america has sent out many missionary, not knowing anything about all the missionaries that were sent? and yes, america does send a lot of missianary, and did you know that we also have a higher percentage of missionaries coming back home too.

i believe paul was speaking of those who was preaching out of flesh and not the Spirit. those works will be burn, but they still will be saved. it has nothing to do with struggling habitual sin. and these people that paul mention are preaching the right gospel or else paul would of brought correction. many christians are not preaching the true gospel. i'm sure we can agree with that.

i have evangelise with people like that and have evangelise like that many times myself, where the preaching was fleshly , but right gospel. i guess you can compare these people to peter before he was filled. peter was still full of flesh, messing up, very prideful. the difference with peter and someone who falls into deep sin is that peter was falling trying to get to Jesus himself. the other would be falling because he was indulging in sin. does that make sense?

dohzman,

i believe that you are misunderstanding me.

i would encourage and remind you also that not all have the same giftings. God gives people different gifts.

we must understand love thru truth and not the world. surely the prophets were filled with deep love, but many thought they were too hard, too serious, unloving, insisitive. the people thought jeremiah was out to harm them and not to bring them good.

now, when you read about the old prophets do you believe that they still held on to hope? do you believe they were patient, and long suffering? i do. many people would say yes too because their in the bible, but bring out a john the baptist for today and i wouldn't be surprise if many christians would throw stones at him.

i'm sure isreal thought the prophets were imputing sin just like christians today would think the same. how similiar we are to isreal!

and i continue to pray that God would raise more prophets for today. the church truly needs prophets!

My use of Paul in Philippians was to show that regardless of the motive of a missionary, those missionaries who are preaching the true gospel are to be honored because Christ is exalted.

I was not speaking of missionaries who go and teach false doctrine. Forgive me if I was not clear in that.

Also, it is not judgmental to say that America has sent out many missionaries because it is a true statement. It is between them and God if they decide to return for whatever reason.

It appears that what you are trying to say is that the American church is so wicked that even a good number of missionaries sent overseas are not right before God. This I cannot agree with you on.

jay, i'm have not come to full understanding of phillipians 2. i just know that fleshly work is not to be esteemed. like dohzman mention, we should be encourage to do it ALL in love, not in envy or selfish ambition. maybe paul was in prison, so he was not able to correct the others, but later in phillipians paul encoraged the phillipians not to do things in vain. then you have to ask God, well, paul did not correct those who preach out of envy and selfish ambition, but then paul couldn't be there to correct them.

surely if we met those who are preaching the word in envy and selfish ambition we would encourage them to do it all in love, the Spirit, just like paul encourage the phillipians.

yes, i would praise God too if i knew that all the missionaries were preaching the right gospel, just like paul was able to thank God that those people who did it in vain were preaching the right gospel, but i don't know if all those missionaries are preaching the right gospel, only the ones i met. i would be judging carelessly. and if we do see this as all good, seeing many are sent out, we would have to ask aslo why many came back.

It appears that what you are trying to say is that the American church is so wicked that even a good number of missionaries sent overseas are not right before God. This I cannot agree with you on.

i did not say that. i am just trying to show that we are judging the church by outward appearance. we are more concerned about quantity, and not quality.

i did not say that. i am just trying to show that we are judging the church by outward appearance. we are more concerned about quantity, and not quality.

I apologize for misrepresenting you. Your above words speak to myself and also all of the posters who decry the wicked church in America. Let us all not judge the church by outward appearances whether that is to commend or condemn. We must judge ourselves and encourage and edify other Christians.

Roaringlamb, just read something here which corresponds so strongly with something you shared I wanted to share it here. First, you wrote

What we call "church" is a system that for the most part does not exist to bring people under the Headship of Christ, but rather under the headship of man. The system is flawed and people suffer because of it.

Compare then with this...

"Another of your books, Feed my Sheep, compares the people of God asking for an earthly king during the days of Samuel, to the church in later times looking for leaders who rule by the authority of their office. Why is this dangerous?

I would choose to word the question, “Why would you consider this to be grievous to the heart of God?” Simply for the same reason that it was grievous to Samuel, and grievous to God. But why? Because God’s desire from eternity-past (if there is such a thing) was a ‘Man in His image’ with whom He would find true companionship and fellowship. God never had any desire for men to become great and mighty. The heart of Samuel was much like the heart of God and this “great” prophet had no other desire but to see God’s people walk with God, and come to know God."

[i]God never had any desire for men to become great and mighty.[/i]

Taken from [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14193&forum=40]Here: Latter Rain Pioneer Warnock Looks to Future[/url]

JaySaved started this thread with this question? ...

--- Does anyone else besides me (and possibly Jay Bird) cringe at all of the posts that refer to the 'wicked unrepentant church in America'? ---

Can anyone please refer me to a thread that calls the American Church wicked? ...

i'm one of those with a few threads on SI bemoaning repentance in the Church, but i don't think i've ever called it wicked ... i've been back tracking and can't find an instance, and if anyone else can i repent of it right now, in Jesus name, for in His rebuke of the churches in Rev 2 & 3 never did He call any of them wicked ... He may have called us potentially
wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked: but never wicked ...

--- JaySaved continued;
"The church in America is repentant, vibrant, in love with God, on her knees praying, seeking His face in all matters, and sharing the love of Christ to all people.

The problem is that too many unregenerate people claim to be Christians. It is not the church that is the problem, it is the hypocrites who claim the blood of Christ, yet trample on it daily in their lives.

The church in America loves God. God is pleased with the church in America. ---

The above quote reminds me of the saying "a little leaven spoils the whole lump" ... Could this have been the same problem experienced by 5 of the 7 churches in Rev. 2 & 3 ... They weren't "wicked" per-se, but that seems little consolation in the face of STILL Christ had something against them ...

i know many who seperate themselves, and their congregations, from the broader Laodicean brush that paints most of American Christianity, like somehow they can seperate themselves from the rest of the Body ... Like somehow if Christ stomps on the toes the rest of us won't be affected by the pain ... God help us ... The American segment of the Body is the most influential on the planet, and most of us are convinced that we're OK, and that to me is the most scariest thing because we don't even see ourselves as Christ sees us in any segment of our lives ... You and your congregation might be OK in Christ eyes, but i ask you in the broader representation of what Christians are, and Christianity is here in America today, as well as the Christianity we export, do you think Christ just might have something against us? ... And to anyone who requires an example of what i mean, i just pray God's longevity on your life to what i believe to be His soon appointed time of "show and tell" ...

You know i often think about where scripture says that Christ is coming back for a church without spot or wrinkle and wonder just what does that mean ... i think - Is He coming back for a "perfect" Church? ... That can't be because none of us, in the flesh, are perfect yet ... So then i think what it must mean is that He's coming back for a more refined Church, a Church far tighter, on point, and in lock step to His definition of "righteous" and "holy", and not our own ... Psychologist have proven that no one, even murderers and rapist, in apparent spiritual malignacy really see themselves as "wicked", let alone asbeing a "bad person" ... So is it any wonder that a church like Laodicea, sure that the goods it possesses are an indication of His favor, cannot fathom His saying that it is poor, blind, and naked? ...

In my reading of Rev. chapters 2 & 3 regarding Christ's letters to the 7 Churches, this really stands out to me that of the 5 He gave warning to He starts out by commending them of the greater majority of "good" He sees in them, but there seems to be just one or two points that tweak Him (to the cancelling out of all else) to His saying unless you repent there's a not very pleasant consequence/correction forth coming ... i suppose some of those churches back then propbably felt a little picked on ...

Ephesus probably thought: "Wait a minute Jesus ... You just said you're aware of our works, labour, patience, our intolerance of evil, our trying of false apostles to finding them liars, and the complete banishing of anything Nicolaitan, but You got something against us in that we've left our first love? ... Jesus that ain't even fair! ... What has that got to do with what we're doing? ... And to add insult to injury now You're saying, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." ... Whoa Jesus, You're adressing us like we're wicked or something, when every indication seems to us that we're doing more than OK! ...

What was Jesus beef with them? ... From what i gather maybe they'd gotten past doing what they did FOR HIM alone ... Maybe somehow they'd gotten off of the glory to Him track of His Kingdom Building, and had switched over to glory to themselves (tho in His name of course) Empire building ... Whatever it was apparently Jesus was putting their "motivation" in check, as well as the "priority" of their work ... To me it seems that maybe all the other stuff they were doing somehow diminished and eventually replaced the Great Commission ... Can anyone else draw a parallel of this to today's modern American Church, or am i just grasping at straws? ... Seems with Jesus, when it comes to His Bride, wrong motivations and misplaced priority cancel out all other good that we may be patting ourselves on the back for ...

Now grant you some of the other 4 churches seemed to have some things more blatantly wrong in there midst, but i bet being people, taking things in at face value, they probably didn't feel to bad about themselves either - but obviously Christ wasn't happy ... In fact only 2 of the churches, Philadelphia and Smyrna, recieved no reprimand ... By deduction (my own reasoning) that says to me they represent the closest to being the Church without spot or wrinkle, the Church of which the other 5 have to become one with, by repentance, collectively ...

i think many of we Christians say we believe we're living in the last days, but i don't think our actions proove such ... Only God knows the day and the hour of our catching away, but it stands to reason that the generation of saints in that time frame will be those refined to "without spot or blemish" to the catching away ... Lets say hypothetically that generation is us, do you know what that would mean? ... For those of you who look at yourselves, and the Body in America in general, and think we're in pretty good spiritual shape and rapture ready: it means very little ... But for those of us who look and see ourselves/the Church otherwise it means even more the need of fervent prayer toward our collectively obtaining His "eyesalve" that we may ALL see ourselves as He sees us, and that we'll react in "fall on our faces before Him" repentance when out of His great love for us He rebukes and chastens us anew to His parameters ...

According to groups like Barna we seem to put on a pretty good show of Godly devotion, but many of our lives, families, congregations, neighborhoods and society seems to reflect a denial of the power thereof ... If even by societal standard alone, with almost 60% of Americans claiming to be Christians, somethings obviously wrong ... But hey we're all doing the best we can in our own eyes, so we can't be our own problem can we? ... No wonder few messages about "the wages of sin", and no messages from Rev. 2 & 3 to the modern American Church ... Can't have Jesus giving a black eye to the "feel good about ourselves", "Jesus as Genie", "health-wealth-and living happily ever after", "Purpose Driven Church" ...

Can anyone please refer me to a thread that calls the American Church wicked?

I admit that I could have used a better word than Wicked. My original quote was

Does anyone else besides me (and possibly Jay Bird) cringe at all of the posts that refer to the 'wicked unrepentant church in America'?

Looking back at the posts, I misread sermonindex's post

I would recommend you read the major and minor prophets. God will judge a nation for its wickedness. And a Church for its backslidding.

I now see he is referring to the nation as being wicked and the church as being backsliden

This however does not negate my subject. My subject is that all too often it is easy to blame every problem in America on the church. The church is strong and loved by God. Yes, Christians may slide into sin but God will bring discipline, not destruction to the church.

Jay wrote:

So, what does the church do? Do we kick everyone out who we determine is not living up to a Christian standard? No

How to you understand this concept when compared with these verses found in 1 Corinthians 5:9-13:
I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
But now I have written unto you not to keep company if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat. For what have I to do, to judge them also that are without?, do not ye judge them that are within?
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves, that wicked person.

ginnyrose

I now see he is referring to the nation as being wicked and the church as being backsliden

The church is strong and loved by God. Yes, Christians may slide into sin but God will bring discipline, not destruction to the church.

jay, you do not think that God's people can fall into wickedness?

i don't think anyone has said that God will bring destruction to the church, but because many christians are in the state of lukewarmness, like i said before, it has cause sin to abound in the house of God and brought shame to Jesus name. this grieves God. her backsliding is a grievance to God because it does not give Him glory. what grieves God should grieve us too, though the only ones that will feel the heart of God are the ones who walk closer to Him. the luke warmer will not know his heart until they come back to Him, fully devoted to him.

Does anyone else besides me (and possibly Jay Bird) cringe at all of the posts that refer to the 'wicked unrepentant church in America'?

The church in America is repentant, vibrant, in love with God, on her knees praying, seeking His face in all matters, and sharing the love of Christ to all people.

The problem is that too many unregenerate people claim to be Christians. It is not the church that is the problem, it is the hypocrites who claim the blood of Christ, yet trample on it daily in their lives.

The church in America loves God. God is pleased with the church in America.

I am sorry, there is just a bit too much being gleaned over here. For one thing, how can the decrying of the one negate the decrying of the other? The whole way this is posited is just off. How can one state "God is pleased with the church in America"? Even the opposite, that "God is displeased with the church in America"? [i]Say's who?[/i] This a large leap unto presumption I am afraid and maybe one of the biggest problems we face, that we have so many willing to either be "Gods spokesman" or to put words in His mouth.

Yes, I recognize the idea that this is in effect an attempt to draw out the foundation of the "Church" as the Lords body and all the other things mentioned here. But what we do have here is something perhaps a bit too easy to ignore, the judging of not judging ... A weariness of certain posts on the one hand and then;

The problem is that too many unregenerate people claim to be Christians. It is not the church that is the problem, it is the hypocrites who claim the blood of Christ, yet trample on it daily in their lives.

And who are they Jay? Which part of the American Church that God is 'pleased with' do they fit under? Pulling up the wheat with the tares?

The church in America is repentant, vibrant, in love with God, on her knees praying, seeking His face in all matters, and sharing the love of Christ to all people.

That is an unutterably impossible statement. The biggest problem with making a deductionary statement like that is that you now have to back it up with factual information and more so will also have to put oneself into the role of judge and jury to make such a broad qualification.

The obvious statement\\question\\problem is that the church representing Jesus Christ, in America, is a mess. It is all over the map as we well know. There is a great "Of course" back of all this that needs not be overly stressed one way or the other. Of course there is a remnant, a very difficult thing to Gauge in itself ... What of those in-between? Those whose hearts are pressing into answers finding so much shallow water out on the surface, many who have been led right to these waters here?

This has some kind of weird sense that we ought to be patting ourselves on the back for such a well done good job we are doing, however the intentions might be otherwise.

If one was to take this all at surface value it is absurd. Just as absurd as it's opposite by way of presumption ... Why am I again reminded of;

Jer 23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

Too much? Need it be specifically 'prophetic' to derive even [i]and by their lightness[/i] as principled?

The church in America has serious problems, not the least that it doesn't take things seriously, including all it's prophetic utterances, it's winning the world by the worlds inceptions and misunderstandings. That there is a remnant is only to hope and pray that same remnant is weeping and praying over all that it has become preoccupied with.

Greg was right elsewhere, please watch this video from Keith Daniel. Listen to his heart poured out in earnest, it will offend some by his take on worldly\\"Christian" music but it really is very difficult to argue with if one really listens to what his concerns are ... Somethings you just have to expense to sacrifice to allow oneself to hear. For both 'sides' that seem to want to have a place to camp for what ails America, this, what he is purporting is the answer. I pray it gets watched and challenges us all.

Greg's post in verbatim from [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14161&forum=35]The way to stop Muslims![/url]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Has anyone watched these videos of Keith Daniel? I watched it last night with a brother and sister in the Lord and the one thing the brother said while he turned around to me with a gravity and brokeness in his voice: "This message is prophetic!" I also believe it is very prophetic for the time we are living in. May we all hear the voice of God and cry out for God to move in the Muslim world. And for God to purify His Church!

[b]The Power of Prayer (video) by Keith Daniel[/b]

Description: This is a powerful video preached at brother Bill Gothard's church. This is part of Keith Daniel's 13th visit to America and he gives a solemn warning to the Church of Jesus Christ we must pray before its too late. Keith Daniel shows clearly that the church should not use wordly methods to win the world it will not work! The main thrust of the sermon is preached from ephesians 6 and the emphasis is that the church needs to get into warfare on their knees.

Download it on SermonIndex.net
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=4224

Watch it on Myspace.com
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1704783464

Watch it on Google.com
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8534371009867953846&hl=en-CA

I have to say this.

I am almost sick at the statements that were made by you crsschk. I find it absurd that you would make the following statements:

How can one state "God is pleased with the church in America"?

Sir, the church is the body of Christ. (Ephesians 5:23 and Colossians 1:24) Are you stating that God is not pleased with Christ?

In response to the statement "The problem is that too many unregenerate people claim to be Christians. It is not the church that is the problem, it is the hypocrites who claim the blood of Christ, yet trample on it daily in their lives.

You say

And who are they Jay? Which part of the American Church that God is 'pleased with' do they fit under? Pulling up the wheat with the tares?

I will repeat myself. Unregenerate individuals are not considered part of the body of Christ (the church). They are not part of the church and God is definitely not pleased with them.

In response to "The church in America is repentant, vibrant, in love with God, on her knees praying, seeking His face in all matters, and sharing the love of Christ to all people."

You wrote:

That is an unutterably impossible statement. The biggest problem with making a deductionary statement like that is that you now have to back it up with factual information and more so will also have to put oneself into the role of judge and jury to make such a broad qualification.

You are failing to understand the biblical definition of the church. The church is comprised of regenerate men and women regardless of denomination or lack of denomination. Yes, they may slide into sin but God will make sure they do not remain there. They are seeking God direction and Will. It is not an "utterly impossible" statement to say that Christians desire God.

The obvious statement\\question\\problem is that the church representing Jesus Christ, in America, is a mess.

You once again are not understanding the definition of church. You are classifying every person regenerate or unregenerate who claims membership in a church building in the context of the church. This is a false statement.

The church in America has serious problems, not the least that it doesn't take things seriously, including all it's prophetic utterances, it's winning the world by the worlds inceptions and misunderstandings. That there is a remnant is only to hope and pray that same remnant is weeping and praying over all that it has become preoccupied with.

See above response.

crsschk, brother, I say this in respect and for the reason of reproof. Please speak of the church of Christ in its proper context and stop labeling it in the world's eyes.

ginnyrose,

I am not saying that it is wrong to kick individuals out of the church. Certainly there is a biblical method and justification for it.

Remember my statement was:

In conclusion,
We are not to be alarmed that unbelievers are claiming to be in the church. God knows who are His and He will judge accordingly. What is required of Christians is to be a light in the world and to proclaim the gospel. We are to judge ourselves and abide in Christ.

I am not saying that it is wrong to kick individuals out of the church.

I am not saying that it is wrong to kick individuals out of the church.

Let me hold myself to my own standards and rephrase this.

I am not saying that it is wrong to kick individuals out of the group of individuals who proclaim Christ. Certainly no man can kick a person out of the body of Christ.

jay, you do not think that God's people can fall into wickedness?

Why is your definition of wickedness? Is it [url=http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2549&version=kjv]spiritual depravity?[/url]

Then my response is:

No, God's people cannot fall into wickedness because of the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

Christians can slide into sin but they will not remain there and they will never be wicked or be in a state of wickedness.

Jay,

You are doing some creative backpedaling with your words as was pointed out earlier.

You are failing to understand the biblical definition of the church.

That is not the point at all and if you would slow down enough to stop pouring your definition into everything...

"[b]It is not an "utterly impossible" statement to say that Christians desire God.[/b]"

And that was not part of your comment nor is it some inference you could draw by what I was attempting to point out. You are playing with words here.

You once again are not understanding the definition of church. You are classifying every person regenerate or unregenerate who claims membership in a church building in the context of the church. This is a false statement.

My, got it all figured out there? Putting words in my mouth I never spoke nor inferred. I full well understand Whose Church it is, what it is made up of and what you may have been attempting here from the onset. The way you put it is only part of the problem, that you can't hear beyond yourself more so.

lukewarm is not wicked? please meditate on what lukewarm does to you, how it effects the body of Christ, the lost and those around you. really ponder what liukewarm does to the name of God. if it is not so bad then why would Jesus make such a strong rebuke to the laodiceans?

My position has been consistent from the outset.

We need to stop viewing the church through the world's eyes. We need to start viewing the church through God's eyes.

God's definition of the church is all regenerate people. God does not include unregenerate people in the church.

Having said this, I object to the constant posters that are talking about how bad the church is in America. When they say this they use the worldly view of the church.

Is my position (regardless of whether or not you agree with it) not clear?

Frankly I think your 'position' is one of stubbornness and pride. That you cannot receive anything from your own Brethren otherwise is telling enough. That you wanted to make something of an issue from an understanding already largely understood as what constitutes the 'church' and then set this up as something of a standard to knock down by disassociating all the problems facing that same church which is made up of [i]many[/i], in various stages of understanding, ignore even the scriptural chastisements, the letters to the church in Revelations, the exhortations and rebukes from the apostles, and so much more ... That there is much to be desired in truth covered over by the very things that good Brethren here are bringing out to the light, to examine and discuss, pray over, warn others of, teach and disciple and share our experiences, good, bad and indifferent. That you wish to turn a blind eye to all that is very much at issue with the church by casting it as being through "the world's eye's", tell me, just who do you suppose these all are here, heathens?

No, it's absurd. Object all you like and do not be surprised that you are being taken to task on this.

JaySaved

In all fairness looking back through this again, you have spoken of a number of these things (chastisements and the like) so that would be somewhat incorrect to say otherwise. It is the way you are positing them here that amounts to controversy and contention for no good reason that I can see.

You are contradicting yourself quite a bit here by making such a blanket statement and casting everything into direct contrasts of black and white. My biggest problem with all this is the same as the prophets running off stating Gods mind by their words, "The Lord is ... [i]pleased, about to, says[/i] ..." . This is always a problem here, to disagree with a comment or a statement automatically throws one into another or 'the other' camp as 'defending'. Think this whole posting is a giant waste of time from the way it was constructed, not the particular contributions. It is basically the same scenario of setting up a straw man to knock it back down. No one in large part around here is envisioning a retribution upon the world for the sins of the church, no matter how far afield these 'prophecies' and the like may be. But to try and dissect the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares, all those things we have been instructed [i]not to do[/i] and that you seem to be taking upon yourself is not only unwise but it is a form of pride and presumption.

To add to all of that, there is still scriptural warrant brought up elsewhere that this possibility exists ... all of us could be destroyed, redeemed or not, the great difference is beyond the body.

[i]And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.[/i] Luk 13:2-5

We are afforded no special protection in the body of flesh.

K= keep I= it S= simple S= stupid (this one isn't really my choice of word but it is the way the saying goes, sorry if it offends anyone it's not meant to.)

I like it, too. How about Keep It Simple, Saints? Then we can really KISS one another in love. In so doing, we shall not quickly be led astray from "the purity and simplicity [KISS] which is in Christ Jesus".

jay, you do not think that God's people can fall into wickedness?

I am trying to follow this thread and understand the focus or goal of the discussion. I believe the above quotation captures the essence of at least one of the points. Simply put: "Can God's people fall into wickedness?"

It seems to me this question is purely theological. It is a deep question that has no answer. Please allow me to explain. There are deep mysteries of God that none of us will ever understand. Isaiah said the understand of God is "inscrutible". His ways are past finding out.

What is the true point of such a question on whether a believer may fall into wickedness? If we conclude that they may, then whom have we benefitted? Have we not just made a bolder declaration that wickedness may be acceptable to God? And what if we conclude that a believer may not? May our hearts become improperly hard as we now can declare that those who are in wickedness cannot possibly be of the people of God?

I am sorry I have no good thoughts to offer beyond what falls into my empty head. Answering questions of whether God's people can fall into wickedness does not seem to be the charge and responsibility of the church. It seems to me that if we proclaim Christ and his words, and seek to share what God has given to us with as many believers and unbelievers as possible, God can witness to their heart himself whether they are his own or not.

"Shall not the judge of all the earth do what is right?" I believe he shall, whether I understand it all or not. I don't know the relationship and witness God has with over six billion people on this planet. My understanding is small.

hi koheleth,

you seem to be thinking way too deep than you should

It is a deep question that has no answer.

could you please read rev 2 and 3. if His people cannot fall into wickedness than theres never no need to bring upon correction and rebuke.

I am sorry I have no good thoughts to offer beyond what falls into my empty head

in honest and love, if you believe you have no good thoughts coming, no verses to use, only opinions than maybe you shouldn't post.

Answering questions of whether God's people can fall into wickedness does not seem to be the charge and responsibility of the church. It seems to me that if we proclaim Christ and his words, and seek to share what God has given to us with as many believers and unbelievers as possible, God can witness to their heart himself whether they are his own or not.

you need to reread all the posts than you will understand why i ask that question. i surely know that wickedness is not the charge and responsibility of the church. and i am surely not trying to encourage others to wickedness. many have lost sight, though of the charge and responsilbility and it is the duty of some, like leaders to expose the lies and sin that many of His children are in and bring them back to the truth, reminding them of who they are in Christ. and it is the duty of us all to encourage and exort one another in godliness, sober mindedness, warning and exorting to flee from lust and encouraging each other of the cross we MUST bear.

yes, thats true that if we would obey His word we would effect many, but thats not happening. it is very obvious that many of God's people are lukewarm.

can we not understand the wickedness of lukewarmness. if we can't see this as wicked, then surely we will not have the urgency to get right with God or wake others up out of their slumber. surely we will remain dried eyes and in delusion.

in honest and love, if you believe you have no good thoughts coming, no verses to use, only opinions than maybe you shouldn't post.

That's unnecessary. If anything here a great deal of patience is needed. This is often a very difficult way of communication and we must allow for things to be sorted and clarified, asking questions and the like.

crsschk, i didn't mean it that way. i'm sorry if i came off sounding rude. i didn't mean too.

our brother said he had no good thoughts coming to his head, so what was the motive then in addressing me? if there is not a good motive, of maybe sharpening me or encouraging me then what is it?

to say that my question brought about more wickedness is unfair too, and yes, maybe he should ask me more questions to see where i was coming from.

i'm not at all offended, but it is good to remind each other why do we post. is it for us, or for Him?

i'm sorry if i offended anybody. that was not my intention.

God bless, lisa

or, maybe i took it wrong, and he meant no wisdom to offer. correct me if i'm wrong. i'm sorry if i took that the wrong way, and you meant no wisdom to offer.

Hi sister,

See how easy this is to get everything out of sorts? We just have to be very careful with our presumptions and inferences, better to ask more questions and appeal for clarification when we are in doubt, just as well not be too hasty in our responses nor assume offense or injury automatically. No worries here, it is good to be careful and prayerful how we go about all this.

crsschk,

Before this goes any further, I want to say that I harbor no ill will towards you. I do not agree with your statements, I believe you are not understanding my position, I am sure that I have not articulated it as well as I had wished.

I do take exception to this statement:

Frankly I think your 'position' is one of stubbornness and pride. That you cannot receive anything from your own Brethren otherwise is telling enough.

May God show me any area where I exhibited stubbornness and pride. I simply have brought forth something that was on my heart (the church in America) and I set forth my thoughts from what I read in scripture. It is unfair to say that I am not receiving anything from my brethren for you do not know my prayers and my thoughts since this post began. I have considered the other argument and (while respecting those who hold it) I do not see validity in it.

I want to take this post to explain what I am saying since it seems to be misunderstood.

I am not saying:
- The church never sins.
- The church never needs to repent.
- God will not discipline the church.
- Christians do not need to exercise discipline in the church.
- God will never destroy America.

I am saying:
- The church is the body of Christ.
- The church solely is comprised of regenerate individuals.
- The church does not contain a single unbeliever.
- God judges the church based on the actions of the church.
- God does not judge the church based on the actions of those who are not in the church.
- God will not destroy America because the church is unrepentant.

I know that my post is unpopular on this site (except for a few who have stated they agree with me). The norm on this site is to either post about impending doom or link to a preacher who predicts impending doom. The norm is to talk about how the church is backslidden, (I am not saying wicked I have already stated that was a wrong word.) and unrepentant.

But, I have had it. Please forgive me for being so stirred up about this topic but I will stand up for the church in America. We are not perfect and we need the disicipline of God when we fail, but there are countless men and women in this country who love the Lord Jesus with all that we have.

I have been called to task for throwing a blanket statement saying:

The church in America is repentant, vibrant, in love with God, on her knees praying, seeking His face in all matters, and sharing the love of Christ to all people.

I am not trying to offend anyone, I am trying to provoke a correct understanding of who makes up the church and God's disposition towards the church.

JaySaved and Mahoney: I agree with you.

In Revelation Chapters 2 and 3: Jesus criticizes a Church that:

#1: It Is His Church, not ours: He purchased it with His blood.

#2 He is building it. And according to the Vision of Chapter 1 and His explanation of that vision:

** He remains in the midst. In other words He shows up and participates and serves so to speak in His Church.

**He has called and takes responsibility for leaders He has appointed.

#3 He Brings the Hope of Restoration and Renewal to those He Rebukes and Calls to Repentance: (The Overcomers)

**The "Overcomers" are not some super spiritual elitist extra credit group of people.

** Jesus reminds them of the joy and promise of eternal reward when he returns and establishes His Visible Kingdom.

#4 Rather than calling one to speak first, He calls us all to have an ear to hear what the Spirit is Saying to the Churches.

Really these Chapters in the Bible establish for us the true authority and doctrine of "Revival" from Jesus Christ Himself in His Church.

I have shared and explained these principles to many who merely give lip service to them rather than listen, learn them, submit to and follow them:

The Lord: In His Church: Building Up His Church: In His Way.

It takes a concerted effort to pursue humility to submit to Jesus Christ in this way.

I sense that you two and (I am sure others) also see this example of Jesus and are working for Revival the "Lord's way", not using Revival as an excuse to blame others for a sense of personal discontentment or struggle.

It takes perseverance in godliness and brotherly kindness to "respond" to the issues in our local church fellowships "rightly dividing the word of truth" rather than continually react in the moment to the wrongs of others.

Blessings to you all in your "labor of love, work of faith and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father."
IThes.1:3

Doug

i'm bringing this up again not because i wish to stir up trouble but because the content of this thread has disturbed me to seeking/talking to our Lord about this a lot ... i believe He's answered me to my satisfaction, but i wonder if any of you would have some thoughts (pro or con) ...

First off the "repentance" mission that i've been on for so long i believe is not my mission, but the one He's chosen for me ... So it seems to me that Holy Spirit, by this very thread, is making it even clearer the reasons why such as myself experience such non-chalance and oft irritability from so many saints regarding spouting our dire need for serious Joel 1 & 2 type repenting ...

i knew the reasons before had to do a lot with most not thinking we're really in need of such drastic measures, but this thread has allowed Him to take me one step further ... You know it's one thing to be blinded to our spiritual needs as He sees them, but it's a whole different ball of wax to dare "speak" our own self-approval (commendation) back at Him as proof of our being in need of nothing - not even from Him ... You know i, like most folk, who see the American segment as needing repentance for being primarily like Laodicea, has let our Ephesus element slip me all together ... With them Christ "commended" for all the wonderful works they we're doing, but their "motivation" and "priority" He called out as lacking purity ... He asked in essence, "Who are you doing all that you do for, and has what you're doing taken priority over what I told You to do? ...

[b]My questions are these? ...

1 - Who are any of us, and do we scripturally, spiritually and positionally under Christ have the right, to "commend" ourselves individually, or collectively as a Church, as sufficiently "repentant, vibrant, in love with God, on our knees praying, seeking His face in all matters, and sharing the love of Christ to all people", or to "commend" to sufficiency that "the church in America loves God" and that "God is pleased with the church in America."?...

2 - If Isaiah 64:6 states that "all our righteous acts are as filthy rags" before Him, 1 Cor. 6:19,20 that "ye are not your own - for ye are bought with a price", Rom.3:10 that "There is none righteous, no, not one, Rom.3:23 that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God", Rom.12:3 that" every man not think of himself more highly than he ought to think", Gal.6:3 that "if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself", Gal.6:9 to "let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not", Eph.2: 8,9 that "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast", is there any room for any of us to scripturally, spiritually, and positionally under Christ to have the right, to "commend" ourselves individually, or collectively as a Church, as sufficiently pleasing to Him at any stage of our existence here on earth?...

3 - Or is any "commendation" to ourselves individually*, and collectively as His Church**, soley His domain, and His alone, as seemingly pointed out in Matt. 25:21* and Rev. chapters 1 thru 3**? ...

4 - In our apparent taking on of the ability to "commend" ourselves in the things of Christ individually, congregationally, American church nationally, and/or Church international, do you think we put ourselves in danger to not being able to hear/see the warnings the Spirit is saying to the 5 type churches spoken of in Rev. chapters 2 & 3? ...

5 - Do you think it possible that if we become self commended that we will become weary of His definition of "well doing", in trade off to a "well doing" much more suitable and palatable to our flesh? ...

6 - Do you think that our apparently taking on the ability to "commend" our selves in the things of Christ have put us in danger (like so many of our political leaders) of becoming "self-righteous" to the point that we've become blind to how He sees us? ...

7 - If we are to take up our cross daily, look unto Jesus as the author and finisher of our faith, keep in constant mind that it is He and He alone who is able to keep us from falling, and to present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, where at all do we fit in to commend ourselves in anything, or in any way? ...[/b]

Does anyone think my questions here to harsh, to legalistic? ... Or like with myself do such ponderings bring on spiritaul joy to the fact that as much as a saint decreases in "self" the more Christ increases in a saint, in realization that the more we decrease in self-commendation the more our spiritual eyes and ears are opened to His parameters and our following of them ... For me this thread has been beneficial in Holy Spirit's fine tuning an even more acute questioning of my motives" and "priority" in what i do ... Some might think it tedious to live a Christian life constantly being concerned about what He thinks, but isn't that the truest part of our own offering to Him once covered in His saving blood, presenting ourselves a living sacrifice which is our reasonable service? ...

You know saints some of you may think we "repentance criers" are as looney as looney can be ... You may be proven right, and if we're wrong i desperately pray God to free us ALL from this hook because to "buck the grain" of self commending saints and Church, apart from God's calling to do so, means we have masochistic tendencies, and that's not healthy period ... In short it means we're sick ... But until such time as God proves otherwise, in my spirit the thinking behind this thread (and others like it) sends me into a spiritual fit like the robot on Lost In Space: WARNING WILL ROBINSON! - DANGER! - DANGER! ...

If i'm being unscripturally and unnecessarily self deprecating here will someone please give me the Bible passages otherwise, but in the interim i think it extremely dangerous for any saint to be commending ourselves in any kind of way since i see all such commendations as no where in our realm, but belonging soley to Christ ... And i think to do so puts us in danger of not being able to hear His continuous knocking on the door of our hearts ... There was a time when i thought it was our complicity with the world, the things of the world, and the lure of mammon that primarily keeps us from hearing Him, but now i detect something even more sinister ... It was there all the time, Christ said it ... In order for any of us to tell Him we're in need of nothing is birthed out of vile self- righteousness, self-commendation ...

[b]Paul's words below are now screaming at me, or am i taking them out of contex? ...

2Cor.10
[12] For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
[17] But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
[18] For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.[/b]

In light of all us saints belonging to Christ by His shed blood i've often thought of Rev.3:19-20 just how weird it is that He who owns us, the house we're in ignoring His knock to what He wants from us, and the door He's knocking on - is outside knocking in the first place! ... It's often made me wonder, since He said "as many as I love, I rebuke and chasten" if He just one day gets tired and decides to just walk away from all that's His in the first, or does He surprise us and do what many of us can never fathom our Christ as Genie doing, and that's kicking our doors down - after all it is His door, His house, and the occupants, us - His ...

Sound kinda far fetched? ... Perhaps about as far fetched as when the lowly, meek and mild Jesus upset the folk in His Fathers house for making it a house of merchandise ...

May His will be done on our behalf ... Lord help us all ... Amen ...

bro Jaysaved

This however does not negate my subject. My subject is that all too often it is easy to blame every problem in America on the church. The church is strong and loved by God. Yes, Christians may slide into sin but God will bring discipline, not destruction to the church.

who said anything about the destruction of the Church? :-? if i remember right, the thing which people were expressing was a judgment on the nation and church to bring us to repentance, not judgment unto destruction.

it seems to me that the world is wicked and will get it's judgment. however a part of the wickedness of the world has to do with us the Church not fully living up to what Christ demands and so the heathen scoff and say "well they do what we do so why should i repent?" the heathen see us in our backslidden state and take occasion to mock God on our account. i'm not talking about the false converts or those who think they are saved but are not but true believers who have backslidden.

Peter did write that the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of the Lord...what are we to make of that in light of grace? could it be that grace doesn't exempt us from judgment when we transgress God but we are afforded time enough to repent? if this is so, what happens when time runs out while we have yet to repent?