Why do most versions leave out the most important words?

Thank you for posting this.

About a year ago my cousin told me to stop reading NIV, and, although at the time I didn't understand exactly why, I stopped. I picked up the NKJV because it was the text used for a Bible quiz team that some people tried starting at church, and even that wasn't enough for me. NKJV just doesn't have the depth that KJV does. KJV is somehow heavier and it sticks in my mind better. In the first few months of my KJV reading I spent some time looking into what exactly is wrong with NIV, and was disgusted. There are verses in KJV that mention the Blood of Christ, but in NIV the same verse speaks nothing of it. I find that peculiar...

I was just discussing the difference today with a classmate, so thank you for sharing these two examples.

another 100post plus cyber tussle over different Bible versions.

how edifying this will be.

What glory will be given to God!

isnt religion fun? You can fuss and tussle, biting and devouring a brother (or sister)over the internet, KNOW that you are right AND righteous, blow some steam off, turn off the computer and when all is said and done, what PRECISELY has been accomplished?

hmmmm?

answer me that somebody?

What precisely has been accomplished by yet another long boring turgid thread arguing Bible versions......EXCEPT to divide the Body just a little bit more.

Oh boy, arent the lost envious of the fruit of so great a salvation?

"look how they love one another".

have fun kids.

first hand...thats why its called "learning".

neil

What precisely has been accomplished by yet another long boring turgid thread arguing Bible versions......EXCEPT to divide the Body just a little bit more.

First off, if you find it boring then dont participate. There are people asking real honest questions, and instead of offering some insight, you offer insults and criticism. I would prefer you try encouraging those who really want to learn.

Secondly, you ask what has ever been accomplished. I say much! I have learned to strongly disagree with people on this issue, and yet maintain a civil discussion and develop freindships... like with King Jimmy. Also, I have had some totally disagree with me on this topic, and months later they drop me a line letting me know that God used my posts to lead them toward an understanding of the issue. Not all have come to agree with me completely, but because of these discussion, they have learned to understand the issue.

Thirdly, I dont think it's this issue that divides... it's how people discuss it. The KJV does not divide. Pride and sin divides. God's Word unites.

Just because you see no merit in discussing this does not mean that no one else does either. It doent seem very honoring to Christ to mock people who are asking real questions about the Word of God.

Krispy

as I said, "have fun".

"insults"? "criticism"?

forgive me than, if you and others find yet another thread arguing over Bible versions, edifying, please don't let me stop you.

if you really want to see how heated up two guys can get over religion, watch these two Arabs have a go at one another over Iraqi TV.

http://screens.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/10/saddam-hussein-is-your-master-and-the-master-of-your-parents/

I just watched this, and it strikes as a micro-look into why victory is NOT attainable in Iraq.

Our guys and girls in uniform are caught between these two groups of raging lunatics, raging lunatics I might add, who are armed to the teeth, and we are caught in a foreign urban enviroment admidst a civil war OVER RELIGION.

and what I was trying to say regarding yet another potential cyber tussle over Bible versions is "here we go again".....and I don't intend on participating, but I can and will term that as not edifying....in fact I find them stumbling. If you disagree with that assessment, so be it.

neil

Kids? wow! that pretty cold but I have to admit I am a kid at heart.

Mark 10:14 Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

:-P

you quoted this Scripture, one of my favorite verses:

Mark 10:14 Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

love that verse!! the implication being to have the unswerving trust and faith of a child.

When I wrote "have fun kids", my usage of the word "kids" was to imply immaturity for this yet another thread/cyber tussle over versions of the Bible, such as rears its ugly head every month or so, goes on for a 100 plus posts, and frankly does not edify, strengthen or unify the Body of believers.

there was some brother further down in the thread that was just FLAMING King Jimmy, and for what?

to be "right"?

which is why I linked up that bit of video of those two arabs screaming at and threatening each other over whether saddam hussein is now a "martyr" or "imam". Thank God it was a TV news set these two were on, coz if they would have had guns, they would have been blasting each other......over religion.

so.......arguing over whether this or that version of Scripture is bad, or apostate, or whatever negative value that a person puts on a KJV Bible, or an NIV Bible is just religious junk and palaber.

Hear me, the sooner the Church weans itself off of religion and starts to drink from the Living Water that Messiah brings, will be the day we start to see real revival in this land.

Everthing else is white noise, palaber and the dreck of the world.

Drink from the Living Waters and quit devouring your brother. (not you Amy.... :-) that was meant in general)...a general throwing it our there", admonition.

Beloved brother,

"how on earth"...you asked me.

God is not behind this war in Iraq, and who can divine the Mind of God to say its "His" plan.

God had nothing to do with this war in Iraq, the "god of this age" had everything to do with it. Thats why I linked up that video of those two arabs screaming at one another...in that segment is contained the hellish and devilish behavior of what happens when men get involved in religion.

They will kill over religion, and that is not only muslims.

God, Yahweh, Adonai, Elochim has nothing to do with religion.

the "god of this age" runs religion, runs wars, fuels the pride of man, and the deceit of his eyes and his lusts, whether it be power or money.

God's plan is this: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your mind, your strength and your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Would to God some of these start loving God MORE than they hate their enemies....or as I heard a secular commmentator from the Persian Gulf region put it, "I wish they would love their children, more than they hate their enemies".

This war in Iraq is unwinnable, you know how I know how?

In WW2, it was Admiral Jodl that signed the surrender documents for the Germans, I forget his name, but it was a Japanese diplomat in a tophat who signed the surrender documents aboard the USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay.

Now when we "beat" "them", whoever they are, who is going to sign the surrender documents?

If you don't have surrender conditions, how can you have victory? How can we win then?

I know what I would reccomend, but I'm not a policy maker, just a struggling saint, as you are.

When I wrote "have fun kids", my usage of the word "kids" was to imply immaturity for this yet another thread/cyber tussle over versions of the Bible, such as rears its ugly head every month or so, goes on for a 100 plus posts, and frankly does not edify, strengthen or unify the Body of believers.

Bartle... brother, for someone who isnt going to participate in this thread, you have posted more than anyone else who is participating! LOL

You cant help yourself, you love this topic, don't-cha!

:-D

Krispy

Not to sound Calvinistic, but to say this war is not God's plan is to say God is not in control right now. I dont believe thats true at all. Just because in someone's perspective it isnt a just war doesnt mean it isnt God's plan. I think Nazi Germany was the ultimate in evil, yet I think it was God's plan in order to set up the reunification of Israel and begin the count down to the end of time. I dont think it was an accident. Over and over again in the OT God used Israel's enemies to motivate Israel.

But we're veering off topic... if we're gonna discuss Iraq and God's plan, lets start a new thread.

Krispy

Hate to spoil your day but the original documents don't exist. No one on this earth can prove 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt any particular word was in the original text because no one has the first copy, and thats a fact. All of this debate about which Bible version is best is all speculation, because even if there are 5,000 various fragments of scripture or 5,000,000 fragments out there the 2nd time it was copied it could have been altered. So what we have are people arguing opinions and beliefs without the proof to back them up.

So basically you're saying we (more precisely... you) have no ultimate authority. No way of knowing if Christianity is even true.

How unfortunate.

Krispy

See, the thing is that if you're looking to the words in the Bible to help you, you probably won't find it. It's not the words themselves that give life; 2 Corinthians 3:6 says The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life (emphasis added). John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Don't these two verses show that it's more the Spirit of God behind the words that makes the difference?

Let me put it this way: if your version of the Bible doesn't feel timeless (I use this word intentionally and specifically), it may be time to try a different version.

I guess it'll just be a while before I understand why we choose to discuss these things rather than search the Scriptures.

To: Christinyou

From: Stever

I have great difficulty in understanding your position. Specifically if doctrine is deleted from the newer versions why should we knowlingly allow it to continue without warning others?

Christ has told us that His Word would be with us forever. (Mat 24: 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.) If that is so then the Holy Spirit that is in each of our hearts should cry out to us with the truth of what is taking place the next time we pick up one of the "newer versions".

This is a small example of the travesty that is taking place by the "translators" of the "newer versions":

Scripture Comparison

Let's consider some important doctrinal truths that are attacked by the NIV. You should note that most of these omissions are found in the other new versions also, if you want to compare. The NIV even refutes the idea that the Bible is the preserved, inspired, Word of God.

Psalms 12:6-7 (KJV) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever.
Psalms 12:6-7 (NIV) And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. 7 O LORD, you will keep us safe and protect us from such people forever.

Can you see how the meaning is completely corrupted by this supposed improved "Bible". Dear friend, God has a warning to anyone who would dare change His Word.

Revelation 22:18-19 (KJV) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:18-19 (NIV) I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

You will note, they change book of life to tree of life (what part would we even have in the tree of life?), then they confuse the last part of the verse, by dropping "and" and running the verse together, it is weakened. The warning is weakened. This is what the NIV is all about. It corrupts, omits, weakens and changes God's inspired word.

1. By changing "God" to "He" they remove the fact that Jesus is God. This is done in the NASV also.
1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1 Timothy 3:16 (NIV) Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

2. By changing "Christ" to "God" they deny that Jesus is God.

Romans 14:10 (KJV) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 14:12 (KJV) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Romans 14:10 (NIV) You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. Romans 14:12 (NIV) So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

3. They change "Son of God" to "Son of Man", who gave them the right to call Jesus a liar?

John 9:35 (KJV) Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
John 9:35 (NIV) Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"

4. In Matthew 9:18, Matthew 20:20, and Mark 5:6 "Worshipped" and "Worshipping" is changed to "knelt down". This removes the due respect of our Saviour.

5. Jesus is eternal, He did not have an origin.
Micah 5:2 (KJV) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Micah 5:2 (NIV) "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

6. Again, Jesus is eternal, He is the beginning and ending.
Revelation 1:8 (KJV) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:8 (NIV) "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

7. The NIV omits the first part of the verse, and leaves out the name Jesus, who is called the Son of God by these "translators".

Matthew 8:29 (KJV) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Matthew 8:29 (NIV) "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

8. NIV leaves out Jesus.

Matthew 16:20 (KJV) Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Matthew 16:20 (NIV) Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

9. They omit Christ and add man - this is wrong!
John 4:42 (KJV) And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
John 4:42 (NIV) They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

10. Where did this name for God come from "One" - this is the New Age universal god - "the One".
John 6:69 (KJV) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 6:69 (NIV) We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

11. NIV Omits Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 16:22 (KJV) If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
1 Corinthians 16:22 (NIV) If anyone does not love the Lord--a curse be on him. Come, O Lord !

12. NIV omits by Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 3:9 (KJV) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 3:9 (NIV) and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

13. When did God cease to be wise?
1 Timothy 1:17 (KJV) Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 (NIV) Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

14. Omits by himself.
Hebrews 1:3 (KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:3 (NIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

15. The NIV attacks the priestly order of Jesus!
Hebrews 7:21 (KJV) (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) Hebrews 7:21 (NIV) but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: 'You are a priest forever.'"

16. The NIV changes Lucifer's name to "morning star."
This shows how insidious the NIV corruption is. Remember that this is one of the blessed titles given to our Lord Jesus in (Revelation 22:16). Here they provide confusion between who Satan is and who Jesus is. One thing is for sure, Satan is not the bright and morning star, but the wicked evil deceptive one, who was called before his fall, "Lucifer".
Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isaiah 14:15 (KJV) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isaiah 14:12 (NIV) How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! Isaiah 14:15 (NIV) But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

Note: At least 70 times, the NIV omits GOD! * Jesus - 15; Christ - 25; Lord - 16; God - 13.
*Somebody must not like Jesus, Christ, Lord, and God.

B. The Virgin Birth.

1. The NIV removes "firstborn" - questions the virgin birth!
Matthew 1:25 (KJV) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Matthew 1:25 (NIV) But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

2. The NIV changes "Joseph" to "the child's father" - questioning the virgin birth!
Luke 2:33 (KJV) And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
Luke 2:33 (NIV) The child's father and mother marveled at what was said about him.

3. The NIV changes "Joseph and his mother" to "his parents" which attacks the virgin birth.
Luke 2:43 (KJV) And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
Luke 2:43 (NIV) After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it.

4. The NIV changes "only begotten of the Father" to "One and Only" which is a New Age title for some cosmic god.
John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 (NIV) The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

5. Notice the NIV omits "Christ" and "is come in the flesh". This is important to us who are saved.
1 John 4:3 (KJV) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1 John 4:3 (NIV) but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

C. The Atoning Death of Christ.

1. The NIV Omits over half of the verse.
Matthew 27:35 (KJV) And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
Matthew 27:35 (NIV) When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

2. The NIV removes the verse (even the Catholic Bible has this verse).
Mark 15:28 (KJV) And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
Mark 15:28 (NIV)

3. They omit "they struck him on the face", this weakens the fulfillment of Isaiah 50:6 "I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting".
Luke 22:64 (KJV) And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?
Luke 22:64 (NIV) They blindfolded him and demanded, "Prophesy! Who hit you?"

4. The NIV omits the BLOOD and question the Deity of Christ in these verses.
Colossians 1:14-15 (KJV) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Colossians 1:14-15 (NIV) in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

D. The Resurrection of Christ.

1. This Omission attacks both the Virgin Birth and Resurrection of our Lord. Without the resurrection, we have not hope of eternal life.
Acts 2:30 (KJV) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:30 (NIV) But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.

2. The NIV omits "of the dead".
This brings in question the power of God in resurrection. Many cultists teach that Jesus was not raised in a physical body. The "New Bibles" give these false doctrines aid and comfort.
Acts 24:15 (KJV) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Acts 24:15 (NIV) and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

3. The NIV omits "him that liveth for ever and ever". Jesus said "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1:18
Revelation 5:14 (KJV) And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Revelation 5:14 (NIV) The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Satan hates the resurrection of Christ, and will do anything he can to fight it.

4. They delete the truth that our Lord has a body; this is taught by the modernist, and cults of our day. When Jesus is seen as not having a BODY, He is seen without a resurrection.
Ephesians 5:30 (KJV) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Ephesians 5:30 (NIV) for we are members of his body.

E. The Ascension of Christ.

1. They leave out "I go to the Father" this attacks the all important doctrine of the ascension of Christ. If Jesus did not resurrect and if He did not ascend back to the Father, then we have no hope of salvation and we have no hope of the second coming.
John 16:16 (KJV) A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
John 16:16 (NIV) "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

2. They leave out "is the Lord", Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.
1 Corinthians 15:47 (KJV) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:47 (NIV) The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

F. The Doctrine of the Trinity.

The Devil hates all three of the Godhead. Many references to names of God are attacked.
1. Who gave the translators the authority to change God's name? Jeremiah spoke about so called "Prophets", "which think to cause my people to forget my name" (Jeremiah 23:27).
Exodus 6:3 (KJV) And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Exodus 6:3 (NIV) I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.

Genesis 22:14 (KJV) And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Genesis 22:14 (NIV) So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

2. It is apparent that the NIV does not like to use the blessed name Jehovah, why? Is this to accommodate the New Age crowd?

For anyone to alter the name of our God is ungodly and out of Hell. (Of course they don't like HELL either, study on).

Exodus 17:15 (KJV) And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:
Exodus 17:15 (NIV) Moses built an altar and called it The LORD is my Banner.

3. In the NIV study bible I am using, I cannot find one time they use the name Jehovah, why? What is wrong with the blessed name of God? It is the Hebrew.
Isaiah 12:2 (KJV) Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Isaiah 12:2 (NIV) Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I could continue with this proof text for the next 100 posts, and yet the Holy Ghost, who lives inside of you HAS NOT REVEALED THIS TO YOU.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Without this word, men will perish. Unless you have the King James in your hand, you are not being fed.

God bless,

Stever

:-D

Christinyou wrote:
Also; John 5:37-40 And the Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape. And ye have not His word abiding in you: for whom He hath sent, Him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me. And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life.

By the Holy Spirit of God and the Christ born again in us, let us come to Him. Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This mission Jesus Christ gave to Paul was not written on tablets until Paul wrote them. If Jesus Can reveal this mystery of Christ in us to Paul, Jesus Can by the Holy Spirit our Teacher reveal the mystery to us. Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Praise God for the Word of God, He is our new nature in our new creation, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the
Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the
word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Phillip

tjservant wrote:

Stever wrote:

I could continue with this proof

Unless you have the King James in your hand, you are not being fed.

You have only proved that the KJV translation is not the NIV translation. Not that the KJV is the only word of God.

Why use the KJV translation to compare everything to?

Use the Greek, it's a language... not a translation.

peace be with you

TJ
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The King James is from the "Received Text, the Textus Receptus, that was passed down from the Disciples.

What is superb about it is that the English language is "frozen in time" with the use of the King James. Between 1611 and 1828 the English language was quite static. Travel took a very long time, and only the rich could afford to do so. The Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of the American language is an excellent tool to use with the King James Bible.

As far as ALL the newer versions---they ALL rely on the corrupt Alexandrian text that Westcott & Hort created to produce their "revised" Translation produced in 1881. Actually, the Catholic bible is quite similar to the Westcott and Hort Translation.

God bless,

Stever

:-D

Hello Phillip:

My question to you would be--why do you use the newer versions (New Age Versions- I like that) at all?

God bless,

Stever
:-D

Use the Greek, it's a language... not a translation.

I hear that a lot. I reject that. To think that God would lock up the truth of His Word in the Greek language, keeping the richness of His Word from His people of [i]any[/i] language is to mischaracterize the Lord.

My God is a miracle working God. He preserved His Word just as He promised He would throughout scripture. I personally believe He preserved it through the line that eventually became what we know as the Textus Receptus, and eventually through the translations that are based on it... whether it be English, Spanish or Chinese.

He did this so that even us common folk can understand the simple truths of scripture. He did it so people who havent had 4 years of Greek at some seminary could know the scriptures. As William Tyndale once told a Catholic priest: [b]"I will cause a boy who drives the plough to know more of the scriptures than you do!"[/b]

Whenever this topic is discussed we always get some who want to impress everyone with their book learning, and say "If you really want to understand scripture, you have to learn Greek!". That same attitude is what led the Catholic Church to refuse ANY scripture to be translated from Latin into the language of the common man. Do you know what you get when people believe you have to know Greek in order to really understand scripture? Power. Power over those you disagree with, because you can alway pull out that card and say "Do you know Greek?". During a sermon a pastor can take any passage of scripture and say "In the Greek, a better way to render this is..." ...and no one will question him. How can anyone argue with him if they havent had Greek training? He can tell you the Greek says anything he wants to, and you cant argue with him! (I'm not suggesting preachers shouldn't refer to the Greek at times, just showing how this line of thinking can be abused)

I know some on this site have studied Greek. KingJimmy has, and I respect him on that. I disagree with his position on Bible versions, but he is very knowledgable about the Greek language, and I think thats cool.

But I believe half of the people on this site who throw down the "Greek card" in this debate dont know a thing about Greek. Never studied it, cant read it... etc. They just throw "the Greek" around because they know they can shut most people up. And the people who seem to throw it around are those who are in favor of modern versions.

Here's the thing... God has preserved His Word in English... in Spanish... in French... you name it. He did this so we wouldnt have to learn dead languages in order to understand who He is, and to grasp the simple truths of scripture. I dont think there is anything wrong with studying Latin or Greek, but it is not necessary in order to have a deep loving relationship with our Savior. In fact, I believe in most cases it prevents it because many time the result is intellectual arrogance.

I personally believe the KJV is the best translation of God's Word available to the English speaking people. It is not nearly as hard to understand as people think it is. My wife was convinced it was, as was I, when we were first saved. Did we believe that because we read it and couldnt understand it? No! We believed it because we were told that it was too hard for us to understand. Years later, after studying this whole version issue and becoming convinced the KJV was the way to go... we began to read it together. Guess what! We were lied to! We understood the KJV just fine.

Krispy

Here here...!

Paul, I love your post. For Christmas I gave my wife a hymnal since we recently aquired a piano in our home. I love to hear her playing that thing, and when she begins to play the old hymns it creates such an atmosphere of worship in our house. I knew most of these hymns as a child growing up. My grandparents took us kids to church now and then. But now, at 39 yrs of age, I'm actually beginning to pay attention to the words... and what awesome deep words they are! "7-11" praise & worship songs have a place, but in my opinion they are inferior to many of the old hymns that most today seem to mock, or at least ignore.

In your last paragraph you talked about those who would defend the KJV for the sake of argument. I know my own motivation for my strong stand has been questioned, and I would lying if I claimed my motives were always pure. However, when I receive an email or PM from someone on this site who either discussed or at least read my posts concerning the KJV... and they thank me for helping them to see the heart of the matter, it lets me know that God is at work. And that is what thrills my heart, and makes the rabid critizism I get worth it. Even if someone doesnt accept everything thing I believe on this, if they just tell me that they have a great appreciation for that old book because of something I said... I know that the Lord has been faithful as I have been faithful to Him.

Thats not in defense of what you wrote, Paul. Thats a simple explanation for everyone of where my heart is on this issue. It's a very dear issue with me, as God's Holy Word should be to all believers.

May we all [b]earnestly[/b] contend for it.

Krispy

Paul... as I said, I had not taken your words personally at all. It was just a good opportunity to remind people that my stance and defense of the KJV is not out of hatred, but of love to see people open their hearts to the possibility that perhaps they have been deceived into thinking the KJV is of no value today.

I, like you, have a very wicked heart as well. I long for the day when it shall beat no longer, and a new heart will beat inside of me.

Krispy

crsschk wrote:
I don't know...

There is still yet something troubling with all this. On the one hand it is weary to keep hearing the same old tired agenda being dragged through here in endless repetition. Some of us have this [i]must[/i] of force about everything that here is no more room for consideration at all, just a constant mandate and exertion.

Stever. You are the man. After being gone for months you have returned only to pick up where you left off. A endless stream and theme that you must force down everybody's throats, repeating the same 'conspiracy' over and over again, and that post to post, even those that don't pertain to this issue, you must inject it again and again and again. It's old, it's tired and it's wearing. Point to a old link and leave it be, this constant berating is detrimental and if anything those you may think you wish to appeal to you will only end up pushing away.

As it has been stated here before about a somewhat collective [i]preference[/i] but not [i]only[/i] when it comes to the KJV ... I can only plead one thing and it is one thing across the board and across [i]this board[/i] which, I would far more prefer to call a [i]forum[/i], the former giving off all kinds of wrong notions ...

It is this;

Honesty.

All of this 'issue' can be completely skirted and even the arguments for and against made a heap of rubble by going up and over and right on past the core of this matter. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever what 'translation' is being used [i][b]IF[/b][/i], by what ever meaning is being derived, which is [i][b]the[/b][/i] ultimate issue, [i][b]IF[/b][/i] the heart of the matter is skirted.

Bitterness.
Pride.
Contentions.
Humility.
Division.
Lack of consideration.
High-mindedness.

It is just uncanny the warnings and admonishens, taking heed, giving place to others, pondering, changing our minds, being honest about what we do and do not know or understand. The core issues are just ran right over to capitulate everything into ... I am asking again, aloud, what darn difference does it make, if these very first principles are ignored? Having a KJV is not going to help anyone at all if all it does is ignore the very corruptions of our depravity, making this all one giant spiritual pragmatism ... It is far too often just laced with the arsenic of bitterness, it screams "[i]I don't care[/i]" and a prideful "[i]I [u]know[/u][/i]". That everything must be cleanly separated into classes and camps is honestly impossible, but that seems to make little to no difference, there are no other considerations, only a position to uphold.

Take whatever version you wish and this simple little illustration of verse's;

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

What was it that killed these two at the inception of the church's foundations? And just what was the whole point of this great and expensive illustration put in place at this time? What was it they were not to tolerate and that we in our day in so many things have just thrown right out the window ...?

Honesty.
Dis-honesty killed them both ...

Amazing that anyone of us even lives with the way we treat this matter... of honesty.

I am sorry that you feel that way about my position on the King James Bible. My position has nothing to do with:

Bitterness.
Pride.
Contentions
Division.
Lack of consideration.
High-mindedness.
Dishonesty.

My position has to do with the Church, and what has happened to it in the past 50 years. It used to be strong, and now it is weak. The Mega Churches are taking over, preparing the way for the false church and the false prophet during the tribulation.

I believe that the reason these Chrurches have taken over is that Christians no longer study or understand doctrine. The Doctrine that is presented clearly in the King James has been watered down to the point that doctrine is no longer studied or understood, and has now become unimportant, ESPECIALLY in the Mega Church.

I recently saw a comprehensive 3 hour video by Dr. Robert E. Klenck that goes into detail about the mega churches, and their disdain for sound doctrine. The links below provide a detailed explanation of the video.

http://www.agp-internet.com/special/cgm/00000097b50c5a001/00000097b5117f921.htm

http://www.authorityresearch.com/

How to order the video:
http://www.swrc.com/offers/internet_0205.htm

Many times I feel like a voice crying in the wilderness on this issue. That is probably because I have seen this change with my own eyes and witnessed the fact that people today, when they hold up their Bible, are no longer certain that they have the very words of God in their hands.

That is the reason for my passion on this issue, and nothing more. Souls are perishing because of the lack of SOUND DOCTRINE.

God bless,

Steve
:-D

P.S. No matter how often this fact is proven (that sound doctrine is watered down and neutered in the newer versions) there are those who consider this proof to be nothing more than "division in the body of Christ". I would hope that all of you go to the websites above and study the Church growth movement for yourselves.

[b][color=FF3300]The one thing that is consistent in all of the mega churches is using multi-versions of the newer translations, and almost never using the King James. What happens is that church members no longer bring Bibles to Church, because the Bible text is now shown on the flat screen televisions throughout the Church, and it is impossible to bring 10 translations of the Bible to Church to read from the Scripture that is preached in one sermon.[/color][/b]

I guess I was just part of a problem.

TJ... because I misunderstood you, that means you throw the towel in and give up? C'mon brother, have thicker skin than that.

I apologize for taking your statement out of context, I should have been more careful than that. At the same time tho, I stand behind what I wrote... I just misunderstood what YOU said, and applied it the wrong way.

But please participate. We need more level headedness on threads like this, and that was the impression I got from you... that you're level headed.

Krispy

But within its proper use and function it should silence some of them; they just don’t know any better.

I agree with that statement, TJ. It all comes back to what Mike has been saying about honesty. If someone is using Greek to bolster their position (on any topic) are they doing it because it does indeed provide the answer... or is it to just win an argument by trying to appear intellectually superior? Likewise, do we use scripture because the truth it contains, or to just appear spiritually superior?

I think you and I agree more than you might think.

Krispy

That is a good word that you gave to Stever's and other's who persist on forwarding their "agenda", and their "rightness".

Now my brother Krispy Steve might like to joke and say in levity that I "enjoy" these threads, but the reality is that, I don't, they grieve me, more than you would know, because what they do is to divide.

What version of the Bible one reads is NOT a salvation issue. I thank and praise God for any and all Bibles that go out into a darkened and dying world in the multitude of languages spoken on this earth.

I don't "defend" or "detract" from any Bible version. Thank God I have Bibles of all translations including a very servicable KJV Bible printed in 1824, which I was able to pick up on ebay for $12.79, and (can you believe that?), the pages are NOT crumbling, and I have gained much fruit from that, I also have ESV's, and NKJV's and NASB's, and the main Bible that I study out of is a 2002 zondervan NIV study Bible, it is from this Bible that I conduct my early morning devotional readings from..

and Stever's I urge you, prayerfully, for Jesus' sake to reconsider the following statement:

Unless you have the King James in your hand, you are not being fed

and to flippantly term other versions as "new age" versions.

This is your opinion, and simply your opinion, which is fine, but when you make a statement like above, two things happen, you imply that there is a class of "less than" followers of Jesus, and this is just wrong of you to do.

I have no idea of how old you are, I have no idea where you ARE in your walk with Jesus, but that statement is wrong-headed, wrong-hearted, and based soley in the flesh.

How dare you take the Provisions of God and imply that because I study out of an NIV Bible, that i am not being fed, simply put, with a statement like that, and the flippant irrevent way you refer to versions of the Holy Bible as "new age" Bibles you are coming perilously close to committing the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost.

Now brother, I gently and lovingly urge you to reconsider such statements as these, and repent from them and give apology to God. I don't need your apology, God does.

Furthermore, for you to say that the Church, that is the Body of Christ has grown weak in America is the same, your opinion. Don't fancy yourself some "lone voice" crying out in the midst of apostates, thats pride. Elijah was moaning that he was the only one and Yahweh disabused him of this notion by saying that there are 7,000 more like him.

Go to the storefront churches in the poor neighborhoods, and you will find that Jesus' wonder working miracle Power is alive and well, vibrant, sharp and overflowing with the Holy Spirit.

Like Mike said, be honest,and to which I add, be transparent. I praise God the Lord Almighty that you are fed from the King James Version...thank you Jesus! But stop sinning and casting out your opinion that those who read from other versions are somehow "less-thans" not being fed.

its wrong, and I pray God that these constantly reoccuring threads on Bible versions give way to threads about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is that thru the Blood of Christ we receive cleansing, thru the admission of faith IN Him, we recieve justification and thru the Holy Spirit we recieve santification. let us talk about the giants of the faith who proceeded us, meek humble worms of Christ, burnt out and dead to all, but Christ and Him crucified.

The Blood is valuable for cleansiing and atonement, simply put, for a follower of Jesus, everyday is Yom Kippur.

Now if you expect a counter-argument from me, don't waste your time, my dear brother. If you feel you must pound back to forward your agenda, than you must do what you must do, but such as that would not in be in the service of Christ, and it is Him, not Bible versions that we must keep our thoughts fixed upon, Praise His Most Holy Name and I remain, thankfully in His love, neil

What version of the Bible one reads is NOT a salvation issue.

While this is true, what version of the Bible one reads is a TRUTH issue, and that is why some of us earnestly contend for what we believe is the truth... as scripture commands us to do.

Now my brother Krispy Steve might like to joke and say in levity that I "enjoy" these threads, but the reality is that, I don't, they grieve me, more than you would know, because what they do is to divide.

If we avoid discussions about the Bible in order to avoid division then we wont be able to discuss anything. The Word of God [i]does[/i] divide! It divides truth from error. It divides light from dark.

While I would agree with you, Bartle, that we should strive to be one in Christ (for we truly are if we are saved), we must also remember what Jesus said:

[b]Mat 10:34-36[/b] [i]Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, [b]but a sword[/b]. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.[/i]

The Bible refers to the Word as a "sword"...

One doctrine that is sorely lacking in the church today is Biblical Seperation. First off, seperation from the things of the world, and secondly seperation from those within the church who teach error. You simply dont hear teaching on that anymore... unless you're in my church, or a very few others like it.

The simple fact is... the Word of God is divisive. It divides. It seperates. You cant get away from that.

Just because everyone is feeling warm fuzzies about each other doesnt mean that the unity they "feel" is from God. There has to be truth in their unity. There is a man-made emotionally based unity... and there is a godly unity. One is based on falsehood. The other is based on truth. And the Word of God divides between the two.

As you well know, this does not mean that I reject believers who read the NIV... I dont. I'm simply trying to show that we need to be careful when we say someone is being divisive. Is he? Or do we not want to hear the truth? Most of the time in Israel the prophets of old were considered extremely divisive... because they rocked the boat. The same thing is happening today. Someone doesnt like what I have to say, so [b]I[/b] am the one who is being divisive...

Want to see division? Take 20 people... give 1 of them a KJV. Give each of the other 19 people a different modern version each. (There are about 80 modern versions since 1881, so take your pick...) Then have them all read the Lord's Prayer out loud at the same time.... thats division in the church. (The one reading the Amplified Version will still be reading long after the others are done...)

Krispy

If we avoid discussions about the Bible in order to avoid division then we wont be able to discuss anything. The Word of God does divide! It divides truth from error. It divides light from dark.

Please. Its not "discussions about the Bible"...its arguments over Bible versions and translations. Endless arguments, lets get real.

Since it SEEMS to me, that you are the arbiter of what is "truth", help me by pointing out what is error if one reads a Bible other than the KJV, and dont just cop out by stringing togther Bible verse after Bible verse, say it from your heart. In regards to Bible versions, what is light, what is dark?

If you have the Love and the Grace, you will get down on your knees and give praise and thanks to God that people are reading and believing the Word of God in whatever translation that be.

I have to be honest and frank with you, when you start writing about "everyone feeling warm and fuzzies about each other", I really am not sure if you know what Christcentric love means. "warm fuzzies" to me sounds like something someone who is VERY much in the world and the world head space would say about true Christian fellowship and love IN Jesus.

I DO love you Steven, but sometimes I feel as if you and I have VERY little in common, no disrespect intended, just being honest. "warm fuzzie" is okay, its not a bad thing, and in its purest form its a real thing, a God thing.

so , may God bless you in NC, neil

this is a mighty powerful revelation you had:

it is then my life's goal to not waste time singling out any one translation, but rather to acquaint myself in an infinitely deeper level with the Author and Finisher of all scripture, and with a single eye discover His perfect will and purpose for my life

that is huge, simply put, the Work of the Holy Spirit in your heart, your soul, your mind. I praise His Name with you, and take it as a Word for myself, thank you dear brother, neil

But here is where y'all are mistaken... I have not blasted anyone (particularly any preacher) who uses a modern version. Now, I have come against the way someone like Rick Warren has USED the modern versions (using many different versions strung together to get [i]his[/i] message across, all the while butchering the true meaning of the scriptures he is using)... but I have never called for a speration from other believers, or "marking and avoiding" any teachers based on the version issue.

I have stated that in our house church, we teach from the KJV, and that I would not submit myself to a pastor who did not. Thats my personal conviction and my personal choice. But I have never sat in judgement of those who do not share in that conviction. Will I listen to a teacher who uses a modern version? I do it every day. But when submitting to someone's authority in my life, we will be in agreement on this version issue.

But I download teachers from this site all the time. LEO GIOVINETTI is one of my favorite Bible teachers and he primarily teaches from the KJV, but he also uses the NKJV and the NASB sometimes. Keith Green is perhaps the most prolific songwriter/singer in the Christian music in the last 50 years... and he taught from a NKJV, I believe. I love Steve Camp... he's an NIV'er.

Ray Comfort has been such a help to me... guess what... he uses modern versions.

Pontificate is my word for today. Neal, I always feel like you're looking for an excuse to not like me. You pontificate about love and unity, yet you cant seem to comprehend that perhaps I agree with you... but in order for there to be true unity there has to be truth. I never said warm fuzzies were wrong. I said if thats all we have then it is not of God. You missed that, but thats what happens when we read too fast, or we have a preconceived notion of what someone is trying to say.

Are there KJV'ers who are ignorant, stubborn, prideful, and cut themselves off from anyone who thinks differently from them? Absolutely.

But think about this... if I was part of that crowd, would I even be here on this forum? No, I'd be on a KJV forum patting myself and everyone else on the back, congratulating ourselves on not being like all the others.

But instead, I'm here. Discussing hundreds of other issues, not just Bible versions issues. Bible versions is a passion of mine, no doubt. I dare say I have studied it a lot deeper than you (I'm only basing that judgement on your involvment in the debates... I could be wrong), and I believe I can share insight into this issue that would be a blessing and an encouragement to people's walk with Christ. And judging by the PM's I get occasionally, God has been faithful. I have heard from a number of people that have said "Wow... I thought you were a nut when I first starting looking into Bible versions, but now I've come to understand where you are coming from!"

Because you dont agree with me, PM's like that dont mean anything to you. But to me they are a great encouragement. It blesses my heart that God would use a wretched man like me to speak to someone's heart.

All you see is people discussing something that you hate to see discussed. Even when there is no argument going on, you pop into the thread and claim that there is one. I'm not coming against you Neal, but the fact is that on the last couple of KJV threads the discussions were going along nicely... until you popped in and stirred the pot. Then you accuse all of us of being divisive.

The long and the short of it is, Neal, if you dont want to discuss this issue, then dont involve yourself. Everyone here knows you dont agree, and knows you hate even discussing the issue. We get it.

There have been new people coming to this forum who have legitimately asking about Bible versions, and several of us have tried to engage them in the conversation... and you (not just you, but particularly you) have shut them down. Please tell me how God is glorified in that behavior?

Sp please understand, my brother... we get it. You hate this discussion. You disagree with those of us who stand for, and contend for the KJV. We get it.

Now... can you please let those of us who do want to have legitimate discussions (and yea, even debates now and then) about this issue do so without the pot being stirred up?

Thanx!

Krispy

It simply means that there is much to gleen from a teacher such as Zac Poonan, however, I am not accountable to him, nor him to me. I am not submitted to him such as scripture commands us to be in submission to those who have authority over us (elders). I dont have an interactive relationship with him where either of us has a direct responsibility to the other.

If I am experiencing a problem in my marriage I wont be going to Zac Poonan. I will be going to someone whom I am accountable to. Because I have a firm conviction that the modern versions contain some strong errors, I want to councel with someone who is in agreement that the version we are consulting with is the inerrant Word of God.

While I am in agreement that a teacher assumes authority on whatever topic they are teaching on, Zac Poonan has no authority in my life. I'm not submitted to him in any way beyond just being brothers in Christ. To me, there is a difference.

I think you'll probably disagree me, and thats ok... we're probably gonna end up in a dance of semantics. I know I'm not expressing myself well here. [b]I[/b] understand what I am saying, I'm just not sure you will.

Krispy

Get the heart right and God can use the "Message" translation in your life to reach multitudes and multitudes that are otherwise unreachable with the KJV.

Really? God used Balaam's donkey to speak to him, I agree. However, where are the great revivals since the advent of the modern versions? Dont say the Welsh Revival... the Bible of choice was the KJV. The KJV was the Bible of the Great Awakening, and every other major revival of the last 400 years.

Since the advent of the modern versions mostly we have seen apostacy. This very forum decries the state of the church on a daily basis. I see a direct correlation between when the first "modern version" was published (1881), and the rise of apostacy. Everyone says how great they are out of one side of their mouths... while complaining about the apostate condition of the modern church out of the other side.

Since 1881 there have been almost 90 modern versions in the English language... you would think that if they are so wonderful, then after 90 different versions we would see a vibrant church in America. I see just the opposite.

And it begs the question... why do we need 90 different modern versions? (hint... publishing royalties)

Yet, no one can connect the dots?

Krispy

Mike... it is quite possible that some of us are convinced by our personal studies on this issue that the KJV is the best translation in the English language and based upon superior manuscripts and translation tehniques... and as such are even perhaps under an unction to share this information with those who are not aware of these things... not as a means of prooving ourselves right, but out of concern and conviction for others.

While we all certainly do not share our beliefs perfectly, it is possible that some of us are dealing honestly with our own hearts and motives.

Fact: on this forum if I say "water is wet", someone will argue against that notion.

Krispy

[b][color=0000FF]How did this change take place. For 1,500 years the Catholic Church AND THE CORRUPT CATHOLIC BIBLE that fueled it dominated the world. Then, the light of day broke through, and the reformation changed the face of the world. Finally, after over 1,500 years the PROTESTANT BIBLE was printed in the English language at the cost of thousands of lives by true Christians being burned at the stake for their belief. The King James New Testament was one of the best translations FROM AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FAMILY OF GREEK TEXTS THAN THE CORRUPT CATHOLIC BIBLE. Actually the Vaticanius and Sinatius have no place in the word of God, yet today that is all that can be found in the newer versions.

This is the truth of the matter, that for some reason is being suppressed on this site. Not only by the moderator, but by others as well. This truth is being suppressed in the majority of the seminaries in the United States and England.[/color][/b]

THE COPYING OF THE SCRIPTURES

We have none of the original autographs of the Scriptures today. That is to say that we do not have the original copy of Paul's epistle to Galatians that was signed in large letters with his own handwriting. That does not mean the Scriptures are lost to us, for they have been copied and recopied many times over, often with great care.

The Old Testament:

1. The Ministry of the Masorites.

a. Their name.

The name Masorite comes from the Hebrew word MASORAH, meaning "tradition." They were guardians of Jewish tradition.

b. Their rise.

Hundreds of years after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, the Masorites rose up in the Jewish community of Tiberius where work was being done in copying the Hebrew Text.

This group eventually worked out a system by which they counted each letter of each page of the Scriptures. They could tell you what the first letter was on any given line of any given page of any given scroll.

"The Masorites had a passionate concern with their special statistics. They went into a bizarre counting successively of letters, words, verses, sections and chapters in each Scriptural writing and in all the twenty four books of the Bible." (Nathan Ausubel, The Book of Jewish Knowledge, Page 272).

c. Vowel Pointing.

The Masorites also worked up a system of vowel pointing for the Hebrew Text. This helped to fix the pronunciation of the Hebrew words (the Hebrew language contains no written vowels).

2. The Copying of the Old Testament.

The Talmud contains a strict set of rules for copying the Old Testament Scriptures. An examination of these rules will show that it was very difficult for errors to creep into the codex. A synagogue scroll was to be...

Written on the skin of a clean animal.
Prepared by a Jew.
Fastened together with strings taken from clean animals.
Lined and spaced so that each page had a certain number of columns.

The codex must meet the following requirements...

The length of each volume must extend not less than 48 lines and not more than 60 lines and the breadth must consist of 30 letters.

The whole copy must first be lined; if three words were written without first being lined, the copy must be discarded.

The ink must be black, developed according to a special recipe.

The transcriber could not deviate the least from the original.

No word or letter, not even a yod, could be written from memory. The scribe must look at each word before writing.

Between every consonant, the space of a hair or thread must intervene.

Between every new paragraph or section, the breadth of nine consonants must intervene.
Between every book, three lines must intervene.
The fifth book of Moses must terminate exactly with a line.

Besides this, the copiest must...

Sit in full Jewish dress.
1. Wash his whole body.

2. Not begin to write the name of God with a pen newly dipped in ink. Should a king address him while writing that name, he must take no notice of him.

3. If a mistake were made in the copying, he was not allowed to erase it or cross it out, but must throw the ruined page away and start anew.

With this kind of care being taken to insure a perfect copy, it is no wonder that the scribes considered the new copy to be just as authoritative as the original.

3. Copying of the New Testament.

What are the requirements today?

Answer: None

Today, we have textural critics who are more than happy to delete long standing Bible doctrine at will. Their method? By using the the Vaticanus and the Sinaticus. The Sinaticus was discovered in a wastebasket (TRASH CAN) in a CATHOLIC MONESTARY (St. Catherine’s Momenstary-near Mt. Sinai) in 1844 by Constantin von Tischendorf. The Vaticanus was found in the (CATHOLIC) Vatican library in 1475 and was rediscovered in 1845.

[b][color=0000FF]How did this change take place. For 1,500 years the Catholic Church AND THE CORRUPT CATHOLIC BIBLE that fueled it dominated the world. Then, the light of day broke through, and the reformation changed the face of the world. Finally, after over 1,500 years the Protestant Bible was printed in the English language at the cost of thousands of lives by true Christians being burned at the stake for their belief. The King James New Testament was one of the best translations from an entirely different family of Greek texts than the corrupt Catholic Bible. Actually the Vaticanius and Sinatius have no place in the word of God, yet today that is all that can be found in the newer versions.

This is the truth of the matter, that for some reason is being suppressed on this site. Not only by the moderator, but by others as well. This truth is being suppressed in the majority of the seminaries in the United States and England.[/color][/b]

What is the purpose of this suppression? When others try to reveal the truth, we are called names and marginalized. This same behavior is also taking place in the Mega-Churches of today. [b][color=993333]DIAPRAX- what exactly is it? It is not only going on in the Churches, it is also taking place in the Government of the United States, in our Schools, at the U.N., in the European Union. In fact, it is taking place over the entire western world.

Critical thinking is no longer allowed. We are now in the time of "group thinking". The individual, with his individual opinions is now being marginalized and being replaced by the "Group".[/color][/b]

This is what is taking place in our Churches and throughout the western world:

"For those unacquainted with the term 'Diaprax', it is simply another word for the Hegelian Dialectic or consensus process -- a deceitful procedure designed to bring about change through conflict and compromise that was conceived in the late 1700's by transformational Marxist, Georg Wilhelm Fredric Hegel who sought, as occult-led globalists do to this day, ‘unity in diversity' – a term many of us became familiar with under the Clinton Administration. Diaprax, a word coined by author and teacher Dean Gotcher, essentially brings together people of diverse and often opposing backgrounds, worldviews and belief systems in hopes they will forfeit their own values, traditions and absolutes for the emotional rewards of group acceptance.

The goal of Diaprax in the church is to rid the flock of its pesky and divisive hang-ups and habits that impede unity and change – personal convictions and restrained behaviors that are based on Biblical truth rather than political correctness, pragmatism and personal taste. Diaprax is a truth-silencing technique that covertly promotes humanist ideals and a reciprocating brotherly love known in the Greek as 'phileo' through imagery (arts/media) and conversation (opinion/dialog) at the expense of the more Godly, obedient, self-sacrificing, truthful and unworldly 'love-your-enemy' kind of love called 'agape' – the kind of love that drove the Apostle Paul to speak the bitter truth about sinful man from the chains of a dark and lonely prison; the kind of love that caused Stephen to cry out: "lay not this sin to their charge" as the angry crowd stoned him to death for his cutting words of conviction; and what moved the Lord Jesus Himself to say as He hung on a cross for the sins of the world: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

This transformational process is especially dangerous to Biblical Christians who are enticed into compromising their convictions for the collective. The tragic result of the process is that believers are slowly drawn away from the absolutes of God's Word to accept the 'cutting-edge' strategies and ‘team-building’ techniques of some 'loving and supportive' group they bonded with emotionally, making it extremely hard to walk away. These seductive 'whatever-it-takes' relationships are the driving force behind today's 'new spirituality' where 'facilitators' with pre-determined outcomes manipulate 'seekers' into superficial commitments and carnal covenants with eye-catching imagery and misguided emotion toward a one-world religion of wholesale mediocrity. This is the meaning of 'unity in diversity'. It is an outcome-based religion and a 'new world order', powered by a transformational process called 'Diaprax'."

The Word of God is clear. We (Believers in Christ) will not all "get along" and have any type of consesus until we are housed in our new, resurrected, glorified bodies. At that time we will be like HIM, and we will see and understand all things like HE (CHRIST) understands them. Until that time, we will do our best, with our bodies of flesh and blood, and the power of the Holy Ghose in our study of the Holy Bible, and the application of it. However, we still SEE THOUGH THE GLASS DARKLY until THAT DAY!

As Timothy tells us from the inspired word:

5. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.

God bless,

Stever
:-D

Do you mean to say that the KJV is a necessary ingredient for revival?

No, it's not the KJV. It's God's Word and His Spirit that caused these revivals. However, when you have a butchering of God's Word, which I am convinced that the modern versions are exactly that... then we get the opposite. The modern versions really took hold in England and the US since WWII. And where have these two countries gone spiritually since then? Not toward God, and thats obvious to anyone who takes a look.

I am convinced the KJV is the translation of the preserved Word of God. I believe every modern version since 1881 is the translation of a perverted "Word of God".

I have never claimed no good ever came from modern versions, I was saved in an NIV church. I know many people (a lot here as well) who use modern versions. But I dont believe you see, nor will you see, a great move of God that involves the modern versions. Instead... we get Saddleback Church.

The old Russelites (pre-Jehovah's Witnesses) used the KJV. The KJV is just as volatile and dangerous in the wrong hands as any other translation.

Interesting that you bring that up. The New World Translation (The JW's Bible) is the purest translation of the Wescott & Hort Greek Text. The W&H text is the bedrock of ALL modern versions. As for their beginnings, using the KJV... anytime anyone uses God's Word without the indwelling Holy Spirit to teach and guide, you get confusion. People also say that the Mormons use the KJV, which they do. But everything that Joseph Smith wrote overrides the Bible... and his writings contradict the Bible in every sense of the word. They merely give lip service to the Bible. They dont believe it, and they dont study it. They just memorize proof texts for their door to door visits, but you wont see the Bible being taught in Mormonism. If they did, and people believed it, there would be about 12 Mormons left in the world.

Krispy

Jimbob... I'm only responding to serious posts. If you have something serious to add to the conversation I will be glad to discuss it with you.

Krispy

what will you say to God when you have to give an account for all the time spent arguing on sermonindex.net opposed to getting into the word, getting to know Christ, and witnessing to others through a holy life ?

This is a great point that we all need to take to heart. Just dont make the mistake of assuming that this is all any of us do. I know in my case this forum is about 1% of who I am, and what I do.

There are street preachers, seminary students, pastors, elders, evangelists... even some whom I would consider to be theologians that contribute to this forum. Iron sharpens iron, and this forum is a great sharpening tool for anyone who will avail themselves of the wealth of Christian maturity that is available here.

Krispy

one sad thing is, when you speak whit a muslim, even as their koran says the bible is the word of God, they dont want to read it becuse there is so many versions, how do you know then whitch version is the word of God? thats a question that i got, and what do i say? this version is the word of God, then he asks another christian.. and that christian says... - no no no this version is the word of God, this is a problem, now days we have i dunno 100 different kinds,whitch bible is the word of God? witch one? can several be when they in some cases say different things?

Great point!

Which one? While this comparison I'm going to make does not necessarily answer the question, it does make one stop and think...

Textus Receptus... since 1611 there has been ONE translation, the KJV. It has been accepted and revered (until lately) as God's Word by all English speaking people. At least until 1881.

Alexandrian Text (a completely different collection of manuscripts with a completely different history than the TR)... and since 1881 there have been almost 90 different translations (some were paraphrases).

(of course I am only speaking about English translations)

TR - one translation since 1611, no confusion about that.

AT - 88 translations since 1881, much confusion and disagree among themselves.

KJV - great and numerous revivals.

Since the overall acceptance of modern versions in the US & UK after WWII... moral decline and apostacy.

I know someone will say I'm over simplifying, but just think about this and let it sink in.

Krispy

you wrote:

Neal, I always feel like you're looking for an excuse to not like me.

you are so wrong about that. That is just the enemy, worming his way into the company of the saints, and I urge you, lovingly, to rebuke the "feeling" that I don't "like" you. That is a just a lie from the pit of hell, rebuke it, coz I love you , or as Paul the Apostle said in Galatians 5:6b
"The only thing that counts is faith expressing iself through love".

period, end of sentence.

I love you bro, but when you write stuff like this:

Bible versions is a passion of mine, no doubt. I dare say I have studied it a lot deeper than you

I gotta smile and ask you; you sure about that?

Steve, if I boast, I'm only going to boast in the Lord, not flash Knowledge about the Deep Things of the Lord, which includes Bible versions, of which I have copies of all of them, except the paraphrase version, or teenzine versions. (lol)

its not the discussion I "hate".....and brother, I never use the word "hate"....I'm not kidding, when the Holy Ghost came to me, and turned me, the word "hate" suddenly became an ugly battle flag of a word. I speak the truth in my heart on that matter.

What grieves me about the "discussion", and i have every right in Christ to forthtell my heart in this discussion, is that when i read a man writing "if you don't have a King James Bible in your hand, you are not getting fed", thats stinks of religiousity and pride, and it divides the Body, into "less-thans" and "better-thans", and that is the same kind of junk that was prevelant in the time of Jesus, when you had the Pharisees castigating a once blind man, because he was healed by the Finger of God, and this man, who could now see, was told, "YOU WERE STEEPED IN SIN AT BIRTH!", simply because he wouldnt play into their rotten religious schemes, which was to denigrate the Ministry of Messiah.

I don't shut down anybody, I believe not only in the freedom of speech as guaranteed by the secular constitution, but I always believe in the Freedom of Christ, and IN Christ.

and dont EVER believe that I don't "like" you, coz thats a lie.

If you guys want to "contend" for the KJV, go for it! But, as I see it, it is a waste of time and entirely, completely divisive.

you are so wrong about that. That is just the enemy, worming his way into the company of the saints, and I urge you, lovingly, to rebuke the "feeling" that I don't "like" you.

Sometimes thats how your posts make me feel, thats just being honest. Rebuke it? Yea... I will, and I'll take you at your word.

It gets a little frustrating at times when someone asks a question about this issue (which they have a right to ask), and when some of us attempt to offer them our thoughts on the issue, we get accused of being divisive when nothing divisive has been said. I dont mind it when people challenge me on this issue, as Paul has. That, to me, is not divisive.

I just wish that those who have a distaste for this discussion would simply ignore the discussion. We have moderators here, and it's there job to maintain a level of civility here, and if a topic gets too hot they do a fine job of stepping in and locking it down if need be.

But for folks to continually jump in and claim we're all wasting our time and fighting etc when the conversation is actually very civil and very enlighting is really getting to be a drag and an annoyance.

Neal, I dont dislike you either. We have had some good conversations since you've come back... and hopefully we can continue down that path. But again, my opinion is that you should consider ignoring those issues which you dont care to discuss. It would remove stress from your life, and things would be a little less divisive.

Ya know?

I also find humor in this... if someone asks a question about Versions, it only takes a couple of posts before the conversion morphs into a debate about how divisive this topic is. The question rarely ever gets answered. It's funny... and sad... all at the same time.

Krispy

Bartle said:

Steve, if I boast, I'm only going to boast in the Lord, not flash Knowledge about the Deep Things of the Lord, which includes Bible versions, of which I have copies of all of them, except the paraphrase version, or teenzine versions. (lol)

its not the discussion I "hate".....and brother, I never use the word "hate"....I'm not kidding, when the Holy Ghost came to me, and turned me, the word "hate" suddenly became an ugly battle flag of a word. I speak the truth in my heart on that matter.

What grieves me about the "discussion", and i have every right in Christ to forthtell my heart in this discussion, is that when i read a man writing "if you don't have a King James Bible in your hand, you are not getting fed", thats stinks of religiousity and pride, and it divides the Body, into "less-thans" and "better-thans", and that is the same kind of junk that was prevelant in the time of Jesus, when you had the Pharisees castigating a once blind man, because he was healed by the Finger of God, and this man, who could now see, was told, "YOU WERE STEEPED IN SIN AT BIRTH!", simply because he wouldnt play into their rotten religious schemes, which was to denigrate the Ministry of Messiah.

I don't shut down anybody, I believe not only in the freedom of speech as guaranteed by the secular constitution, but I always believe in the Freedom of Christ, and IN Christ.

Steve’s response:

I assume this was directed to me since my name is Steve. The crux of this matter is all about the manuscripts used to create the various versions. It matters not if you have all 80+ versions (NIV, etc) of the newer versions. What matters is that you understand that you are not comparing apples to apples when you take one of the these 80+ versions and compare it to the King James. You are actually comparing oranges to an apple. As Krispy posted previously (that you did not address in your reply to him) is the following:

Textus Receptus... since 1611 there has been ONE translation, the KJV. It has been accepted and revered (until lately) as God's Word by all English speaking people. At least until 1881.

Alexandrian Text (a completely different collection of manuscripts with a completely different history than the TR)... and since 1881 there have been almost 90 different translations (some were paraphrases).

(of course I am only speaking about English translations)

TR - one translation since 1611, no confusion about that.

AT - 88 translations since 1881, much confusion and disagree among themselves.

What does all of this mean? If I pick up a Catholic Bible am I picking up the Textus Receptus? No, I am picking up their Bible that is derived from the Alexandrian text. The Alexandrian text is corrupt, as has been documented on this site many times.

If I pick up a King James Bible I have picked up the Protestant Bible, that is derived from the Textus Receptus. I am not looking at a Catholic Bible when I have the King James in my hand.

However, if I pick up any of the newer versions (Those bibles printed since 1881 and that are not the King James) I should be aware that I do not have the Textus Receptus in my hands. Westcott and Hort [b][color=FF3300]replaced (got rid of)[/color][/b] the Textus Receptus and [b][color=990000]replaced it with their "Revised Version" in 1881 that relied on ONLY the Vaticanus and the Sinaticus texts[/color][/b]. The Sinaticus was discovered in a wastebasket (TRASH CAN) in a CATHOLIC MONESTARY (St. Catherine’s Momenstary-near Mt. Sinai) in 1844 by Constantin von Tischendorf. The Vaticanus was found in the (CATHOLIC) Vatican library in 1475 and was rediscovered in 1845. The Catholic bible relies on the Vaticanius, alone. [b][color=990000]However the newer versions, starting in 1881 rely entirely on the Vaticanus and the Sinaticus texts.[/color][/b]

What this thread has been about is exposing this fact to other Christians. This is the TRUTH that Krispy is referring to, that no-one seems to have any interest in.

I posted on this matter about this time last year and had a tremendous response from others that participated, and many others who did not participate, but sent personal emails thanking me for the revelation to them of these facts.

Do these facts have any interest to you in any way? I pray that they do.

God bless,

Stever :-D

we get accused of being divisive when nothing divisive has been said.

when a man writes on a forum that "if you don't have a King James Version in your hand, you're not being fed", thats not divisive?

come on.

and did you see the post below outlining what Jewish scribes go thru to scribe a Torah Scroll, and I've been privy to this, do you know how much it costs to buy an actual scrolled Torah, that is the Pentatuech, that is the Tanakh?
the Five Books of Moses.....40 to 50 thousand plus....thats the Law, and praise God, we are FREE from the Law, and I can right now go onto IBS, and purchase any version, paperback of the KJV, NIV, NKJV for anywhere from $1.99 to $2.49.

and I hear people here speaking about how their are no new revivals? are you guys serious?!?

as i speak there is a HUGE revival in China right this second, its in HOUSES, millions upon millions coming to Christ, in Africa, in South America, we don't hear about it, because the beautiful feet that bring the Good News are usually bare, and they walk on dirt paths to gather togther in humbles huts, homes, dwelling and CNN aint there, Christianity Today isnt there, TBN isnt there. There are believers, who have vowed by life or death, that are going to preach the Gospel down the Silk Road thruout all the 'stans" (Uzbekistan, Krygistan, Turkemistan) until they reach Jerusalem. We don't hear about it in the natural, that is the media, because the Lord don't want the Baby swallowed up by the Dragon that awaits it, but I promise, get down on your knees and ask Jesus, is there revival in the 10/40 window?...in the Third world...ask Him.

The Answer He gives you will just set your heart aflame.

Forthtelling never gives me stress, it might grieve me, but not stress.

Ask God tonight, ask Him to take you up in the Spirit and show you a crummy storefront in a favela in Sao Paolo Brazil. Its got concrete floors, a single lightbulb, maybe a few plastic chairs, and its packed out with hungry souls waiting for the Bread of Life, I'm telling you the truth.

In Jesus' love and light, neil

I'm not a protestant, I'm not a catholic, I'm a Jew saved by Grace, and the Bible I studied from this morning was a zondervan 2002 niv study Bible, and if you WANT to believe that I wasn't fed, you can labor under that delusion until the day we both stand before the Judgement Seat.

Until then, if you wish, to cast the Body into two classes, a "less than" class, not being "fed" because they read a version other than the King James Bible, and a "greater than" class because they do, than you are IN SIN.

You are not "contending" for anything other than your "opinion" and your "pride", based on your agenda and self righteousness. Forgive me (and I mean that) if what I just wrote seems harsh, but I am being forthright and honest with you.

I praise God, if your testimony brought "tremendous response" enriching anyone to the Riches of Christ, but a blanket statement about believers not being "fed" because they dont "have a King James Bible in their hands" is just sinful, reprehensible and soaked with pride.

I don't know how to put it any other way.

bartle wrote:
I'm not a protestant, I'm not a catholic, I'm a Jew saved by Grace, and the Bible I studied from this morning was a zondervan 2002 niv study Bible, and if you WANT to believe that I wasn't fed, you can labor under that delusion until the day we both stand before the Judgement Seat.

Until then, if you wish, to cast the Body into two classes, a "less than" class, not being "fed" because they read a version other than the King James Bible, and a "greater than" class because they do, than you are IN SIN.

You are not "contending" for anything other than your "opinion" and your "pride", based on your agenda and self righteousness. Forgive me (and I mean that) if what I just wrote seems harsh, but I am being forthright and honest with you.

I praise God, if your testimony brought "tremendous response" enriching anyone to the Riches of Christ, but a blanket statement about believers not being "fed" because they dont "have a King James Bible in their hands" is just sinful, reprehensible and soaked with pride.

I don't know how to put it any other way.

Stever's response:

WHY do you put words in my mouth? I never said one word about "NOT BEING FED" by using the newer versions. God in His providence can give his Gospel to a person on their death bed, face to face. God can appear in dreams to those that He desires.He can surely use the NIV or any new version to lead them to Himself.

My only point to you, and others reading this thread, is this:

The newer versions are not the same as the Protestant Bible, the King James. There are DRASTIC differences that must be pointed out to others. Once they understand this difference, they can do what they want.

My question to you would be: Do you understand the difference?

You and I live in America and we speak and read English and we have a choice. We can buy any Bible we choose. I have over 20 Bibles in our home. However, with all of the deficiencies of the newer versions, with the tremendous watering down of God's Doctrine, why would you or I choose the NIV? I realize the one you are using is a study Bible, yet all of the helpful footnotes that you are referring to are not always correct. Why do you bother to use it, if you have access to the much far superior King James, that still contains all of God's DOCTRINE in it?

God bless,

Stever

you wrote in a post on page 5 of this thread:

Without this word, men will perish. Unless you have the King James in your hand, you are not being fed.

Those are your words....and you dare to accuse me of

Stever's response:
WHY do you put words in my mouth?

so you accuse me of falsehood?

Do you deny that YOU wrote those words, on a post ON page 5 under you moniker "Stever"?

you are caught up in religion, and religion kills. My advice, flee from religion.

and as long as you accuse me of falsehood, as you have, dont bother me with your dross, until you repent for treating a brother as such.

(later addition: you asked me "If I can understand the difference?" (between Bible versions) perans mine. I'll tell you what I can discern, AND understand; I can discern from those whom Christ lives within from those who are consumed with their own religiousity and self-righteousness, underline SELF.)

bartle wrote:
you wrote in a post on page 5 of this thread:

Without this word, men will perish. Unless you have the King James in your hand, you are not being fed.

Those are your words....and you dare to accuse me of

Stever's response:
WHY do you put words in my mouth?

so you accuse me of falsehood?

Do you deny that YOU wrote those words, on a post ON page 5 under you moniker "Stever"?

you are caught up in religion, and religion kills. My advice, flee from religion.

and as long as you accuse me of falsehood, as you have, dont bother me with your dross, until you repent for treating a brother as such.

(later addition: you asked me "If I can understand the difference?" (between Bible versions) perans mine. I'll tell you what I can discern, AND understand; I can discern from those whom Christ lives within from those who are consumed with their own religiousity and self-righteousness, underline SELF.)

Dear Brother Bartle:

I do apologize to you for accusing you for "putting words in my mouth" and ask for your forgiveness.

With that being said, I would like to correct my post as follows, and would like your prayerful, thoughtful response:

What I meant to say before is that the newer versions (NIV included) are not as reliable as the King James. However, God in His providence can give his Gospel to a person on their death bed, face to face. God can appear in dreams to those that He desires.He can surely use the NIV or any new version to lead them to Himself.

[b][color=0000FF]My only point to you, and others reading this thread, is this:[/color][/b]

The newer versions are not the same as the Protestant Bible, the King James. There are DRASTIC differences that must be pointed out to others. Once they understand this difference, they can do what they want.

[b][color=0000FF]My question to you would be: Do you understand the difference? [/color][/b]

You and I live in America and we speak and read English and we have a choice. We can buy any Bible we choose. I have over 20 Bibles in our home. However, with all of the deficiencies of the newer versions, with the tremendous watering down of God's Doctrine, why would you or I choose the NIV? I realize the one you are using is a study Bible, yet all of the helpful footnotes that you are referring to are not always correct. Why do you bother to use it, if you have access to the much far superior King James, that still contains all of God's DOCTRINE in it?

[b][color=0000FF]This is nothing more than Christian dialogue about a very serious issue-SOUND DOCTRINE. I would appreciate your response, point by point if that is possible.[/color][/b]

God bless,

Stever

_________________
Bond Servant

is accepted in the Love of Christ, Who lives in me.

no fruit can be gained from any "discussion" regarding Bible versions with me, therefore my only heart desire is to wish God's best for you and your family today, May you all be richly blessed in Christ Jesus. amen

in Jesus' love, neil

MrBillPro wrote:

Stever wrote:
with all of the deficiencies of the newer versions, with the tremendous watering down of God's Doctrine, why would you or I choose the NIV?
God bless,
tever

Pretty cold statement for all of us that have been Blessed by the NIV, first of all the if God has a word for you thru a scripture they could be written in Pig Latin.
God is God and trust me this could happen unless you keep God in a box, his ways are "NOT" our ways you remember that don't you? Watered down is watered down and the King James is also watered down compared to the Greek/Hebrew version. Are we reading Scriptures just for face value? or are we reading the living Word were they Minister to "thru" the Holy Spirit? if were reading them for face value well the Holy Spirit may as well close up shop. :-(

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hello Bill:

The truth should not be cold, especially when referring to God's Soverign Word. "Sound Doctrine" is still better than "less Sound Doctrine and missing sound Doctrine".

The Holy Spirit is alive and well, no matter which version we use. I am quite certain that He (the Holy Spirit) is more enamored with "Sound Doctrine" than "less Sound Doctrine and missing Doctrine", especially since it is God's (& hence the Holy Spirit's) Word that we are talking about.

[b][color=000099]My only point to you, and others reading this thread, is still the same:[/color][/b]

The newer versions are not the same as the Protestant Bible, the King James. There are DRASTIC differences that must be pointed out to others. [b][color=000099]Once we understand this difference, we can do what we want.[/color][/b]

God bless,

Stever :-D

MrBillPro wrote:

Stever wrote:
The newer versions are not the same as the Protestant Bible, the King James. There are DRASTIC differences that must be pointed out to others.
God bless,
Stever :-D

Ok I guess your saying that God can't work thru the NIV as well as he can the KJV version right?
Wonder what God might think about that?

Well the God I serve can work thru any version if he wants "He's God" and has for me.

Bill, the God you and I both serve can work through any version He wants to work with. He can also work with no version. However,that is not the point in regards to this topic, and you know it.

As long as you know that one version is more superior than another and you choose the lesser version, go for it. God gives us all free will.

Sincerely,

Stever

Smokey wrote:

Krispy and Stever

\tI do not own a "modern" translation, so could one of you comment as to whether the old testament in the newer translations contains the same questionable translation problems as the new testament does.
\tIn the past, I have encouraged you both privately for your stand in defense of the King James Bible. I would like to take this opportunity to publicly thank you both for your conviction and sound, reasonable defense of the (KJV) once again.
\tI have spent quite a bit of time reviewing this, and other threads concerning this issue, and I have not been able to find a single "proof" posted that would prove any modern translation is the Inspired Word of God. I think the issue can be summed up with the following scripture.
\t
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;

Blessings Greg

Hell Diminished or Missing

The doctrine of eternal hell is a fearful Bible truth (DOCTRINE). The word itself has, from the beginnings of the English language, always had a fixed and established meaning. “The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God” (Psalms 9:17) is very plain. In fact, for many (including preachers and Bible translators) it is apparently too plain. Many people today do not mind using the word in their daily conversation, but do not like seeing it in the Bible.

[b][color=000099]Modern translations have tried to make the Bible more palatable and socially acceptable by taking some of the terror out of the fact that a man or woman who dies outside of faith in Jesus Christ goes to an eternal and conscious hell. Translators do this in two ways. First, the word is often left in its untranslated Hebrew or Greek form (Sheol or Hades), thus greatly diminishing its impact upon an English reader. The New American Standard version frequently reverts to this practice. Secondly, some simply translate sheol as “death” or “grave”. The Jehovahs Witness “Bible” does this and (if you can believe it!) the New International Version (NIV) is guilty of the same stratagem.[/color][/b]

[b][color=990000]In the comparison between the King James and the NIV, the point at issue is the underlying Greek text of the New Testament. Nearly all modern versions are founded on a radically different text from the KJB. This is the reason for the many omissions of sound Doctrine- Doctrine that is present in the KJV and absent in the NIV.[/color][/b]

[b][color=000099]However, here it is a question of the philosophy of the translators. In the case of the NIV, this philosophy has led to their having completely removed “hell” from the Old Testament![/color][/b]

KJV
DEU 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
NIV
For a fire has been kindled by my wrath, one that burns to the realm of death below. It will devour the earth and its harvests and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

KJV
2SA 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
NIV
The cords of the grave coiled around me; the snares of death confronted me.

KJV
JOB 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
NIV
They are higher than the heavens—what can you do? They are deeper than the depths of the grave—what can you know?

KJV
JOB 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
NIV
Death is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered

KJV
PSA 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
NIV
The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God.

KJV
PSA 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
NIV
because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

KJV
PSA 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
NIV
The cords of the grave coiled around me; the snares of death confronted me.

KJV
PSA 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
NIV
Let death take my enemies by surprise; let them go down alive to the grave, for evil finds lodging among them.

KJV
PSA 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
NIV
For great is your love toward me; you have delivered me from the depths of the grave.

KJV
PSA 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow
NIV
The cords of death entangled me, the anguish of the grave came upon me; I was overcome by trouble and sorrow.

KJV
PSA 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
NIV
If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

KJV
PRO 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
NIV
Her house is a highway to the grave, leading down to the chambers of death.

KJV
PRO 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
NIV
But little do they know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of the grave.

KJV
PRO 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
NIV
Death and Destruction lie open before the LORD — how much more the hearts of men!

KJV
PRO 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
NIV
The path of life leads upward for the wise to keep him from going down to the grave.

KJV
PRO 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
NIV
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

KJV
PRO 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
NIV
Death and Destruction are never satisfied, and neither are the eyes of man.

KJV
ISA 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
NIV
Therefore the grave enlarges its appetite and opens its mouth without limit; into it will descend their nobles and masses with all their brawlers and revelers.

KJV
ISA 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
NIV
The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—all those who were leaders in the world;…

KJV
ISA 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
NIV
But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

KJV
ISA 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement;…
NIV
You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death, with the grave we have made an agreement.

KJV
ISA 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand;
NIV
Your covenant with death will be annulled; your agreement with the grave will not stand…

KJV
ISA 57:9 …and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
NIV
…you descended to the grave itself!

KJV
EZE 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit:…
NIV
I made the nations tremble at the sound of its fall when I brought it down to the grave with those who go down to the pit…

KJV
EZE 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword;…
NIV
Those who lived in its shade, its allies among the nations, had also gone down to the grave with it, joining those killed by the sword.

KJV
EZE 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
NIV
From within the grave the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, ‘They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.’

KJV
EZE 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell…
NIV
Do they not lie with the other uncircumcised warriors who have fallen, who went down to the grave…

KJV
AMO 9:2 Though they dig into hell thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
NIV
Though they dig down to the depths of the grave, from there my hand will take them. Though they climb up to the heavens, from there I will bring them down.

KJV
JON 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
NIV
He said: “In my distress I called to the LORD, and he answered me. From the depths of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry.

KJV
HAB 2:5 …who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
NIV
…Because he is as greedy as the grave and like death is never satisfied, he gathers to himself all the nations and takes captive all the peoples.

The word “hell” is present 22 times within the New Testament of the Authorized Bible (King James), compared with only 13 occurrences in the text of the New International Version. [u][b][color=000099]The real shock, however, is to see that this popular translation (NIV) completely removes the word HELL from the Old Testament.[/color][/b][/u]
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Greg-- I hope this is what you were looking for.

God bless,

Stever
:-D

thats it. I pronounce you "pharisee dujour" for having the gall, and gracelessness to equate those who read versions other than the KJV, with this verse of Scripture:

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;

you are way way off base, out of line, and pharisaical, and it just underlines what I said before, that you gaggle of "KJV only" adherents make the implication that those who read a NIV, or ESV, or an NASB are a "less-than" in the Faith.

shame on you.

[b][size=medium]bartle wrote:[/size][/b]
thats it. I pronounce you "pharisee dujour" for having the gall, and gracelessness to equate those who read versions other than the KJV, with this verse of Scripture:

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;

you are way way off base, out of line, and pharisaical, and it just underlines what I said before, that you gaggle of "KJV only" adherents make the implication that those who read a NIV, or ESV, or an NASB are a "less-than" in the Faith.

shame on you.

Stever responds to 2nd Timothy 4:3

God's Word tells us:
"2 Titus 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;"

This is a prophecy of what will take place in the "end times". The End Times have been here since Jesus Christ was crucified. Paul tells us that even before the New Testament had been written that the Judaizers were trying to change the Gospel [i][b][size=small]by taking away grace and replacing it with legalism[/size][/b][/i], and many in the Church wanted to hear this gospel (and HENCE, HAD "ITCHING" EARS). "Paul accused them of teaching that observance of the law was necessary to be justified and hence saved, i.e. Legalism. These groups taught that Gentile followers of Jesus needed to become Jewish proselytes and observe the various requirements of the Old Testament, most importantly circumcision, or at least that the Jewish followers of Jesus needed to do so, with Noahide Law being required for Gentile followers. According to Eusebius' History of the Church 4.5.3-4: the first 15 Bishops of Jerusalem were "of the circumcision".

The issue was an early source of controversy in the church and came to a head during the Council of Jerusalem. According to the account given in Acts 15, it was determined that Gentile converts to Christianity did not have to be circumcised; rather, they were asked to "abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication."

Paul also addressed this question in his Epistle to Galatians in which he condemned those who insisted that Jewish law had to be followed for justification as "false believers" (Galatians 2:4):

[Galatians 2:3-9, 15-16 KJV]
3.But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4. And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5. To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: 7. But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8. (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9. And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.15. We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Also Paul implored believers not to be circumcised because it would profit them NOTHING in Jesus Christ: 2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.(Galatians 5:2-4). The Epistle to Titus 1:11, often attributed to Paul, is, according to some Biblical scholars, also a condemnation of these practices."
xxxxxxxxxxxx

Specifically 2 Titus 4:3 refers to Christians and others, who in these last days, have NO INTERST IS SOUND DOCTRINE.

Does it apply to me? Does it apply to other Christians? Only if we are no longer INTERESTED IN STUDYING SOUND DOCTRINE, and hence have "ITCHING EARS" by wanting to hear (& read) SOMETHING ELSE.

The Mega Churches of today have no interest in sound doctrine. All of the other Churches, who have gone along with the Purpose-Driven model
have no interest in sound doctrine either.

My question is addressed to everyone who reads this thread and is as follows:

Are you interested in sound doctrine today? Judge yourself--Do you study sound doctrine, as we are commanded to do 2 Timothy 15-26?

15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, [b][color=990000]rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.[/color][/b] 19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26. And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

Also, Psalms 1 is instructive in this matter as well, when we judge ourselves:
Psalms 1

1.Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. 4. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

[b][size=small]If you are following this thread, and these posts convict you through the power of the Holy Ghost to read another version of the Bible, so be it. However this poster (Stever) is not trying to convict anyone. This poster is only interested in the TRUTH of the matter. What is that TRUTH? THERE ARE TREMENDOUS differences in the DOCTRINE presented in the NEWER VERSIONS, published since 1881 than in the Authorized Version, the King James Bible, The PROTESTANT BIBLE. THE DIFFERENCE? Much of the Doctrine has been watered down, or is totally missing from the Newer versions, published since 1881.The reason for this DRAMATIC DIFFERENCE has been explained in prior posts on this thread.[/size][/b]

God bless,

Stever