Paul Cain

I am doing research on Paul Cain. I was wondering if anyone knew of any good sites that i could go to to read his sermans and if any books have been written about him. Thanks!

The first time I heard about Paul Cain was actually listening to Leonard Ravenhill... Leonard had a keen eye for wolves in sheeps clothing but somehow he missed Paul Cain, because he couldn't stop singing his praises.

Leonard made special note to state that Paul Cain had a special accountability partner in his mother... as it turns out, it was probably the pressure from his mother that forced him into an unnatural relationship instead of leading him towards a normal sexual relationship in marriage.

It's a shame to think that this man had the trust and affection of Leonard Ravenhill but was rotten in his core... then again another reason why we shouldn't put our faith in any man, no matter how good they look on the outside. Hold fast to Jesus!

While I agree that Paul Cain has really messed up his walk and testimony, but to say he was rotten to the core could bring sentence on ourselves.

There have been many people of God who have started out right and finished badly. To discount everything good they have ever done is not good. There are also those who have been restored and went on to be real assets to the work of God, take John Mark for instance and Samson in his last moments, who is even listed in Hebrews 11 as one of the heroes of the faith.

Hbr 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of] Jephthae; [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets:

We need to call sin sin but also to acknowledge all of us are liable to do the same except for the Grace of God.

Paul Cain's mother was a awesome woman of God and to read into the situation that her pressure caused him to do what he did is assumption unless you have evidence of that.

We are all apt to fall if we don't stay connected in the way we should. We are capable of murder, greed, sexual abuse and the like if we step away for one moment from the source of our life.

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

[color=0000FF]God makes provision for restoration and I don't consider anyone rotten to the core, unless I consider myself first. We must be careful not to think anyone beyond help.[/color]

God loves Paul Cain as much as He loves anybody. God still wants to use him if he is truly repentant. The word above says restore in the spirit of meekness lest we also be tempted.

Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

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Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

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If Paul Cain comes to the place of true repentance we can expect God to say this about him, and us, thank God.

Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

[color=0000FF]I also know if a person is in leadership they should be corrected in front of the whole church. I believe this is what Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle and others did.[/color]

My words were not well chosen and I apologize for that. My knowledge of the situation was that this was not isolated, but that he had been involved in these activities for years -so with that in mind he decieved many over the course of his problems; including Leonard Ravenhill.

We're all rotten inside when Jesus isn't the center of our lives, so those words shouldn't be taken to mean too much, and the Wolf in Sheeps clothing is a correct assesment -he was publically claiming to be a sanctified evangelist, but privately he was engaged in heinous and ongoing corrupted activities...

My thought about his mother was pure conjecture, however I feel that it does have some weight. We should encourage our Christian brothers and sisters to engage in normal relational and sexual activity -this is part of human life, God did not intend for us all to be celibate! We see how the pressures towards a celibate life without end can lead to perverse sexual relations among the Catholic clergy.

The fact of the matter is that his mother, albiet a Godly woman, was attributed in part to his fall from grace due to her controlling his life (she was the one who decided that he would be an evangelist for example -even if he was unqualified). We need the accountability of our peers, not the control of a dictator.

Paul Cain going under "restoration" through Rick Joyner is like Richard Nixon receiving counseling from Bill Clinton. Both Paul Cain and Rick Joyner are both false prophets. Both have prophesied doctrines that were by all means extra-biblical, and prophesied things that simply were not true. I don't say this full of venom or bitterness in my mouth.

These guys are the center of the so-called "prophetic movement," which teaches people "how-to" prophesy, and to become "more accurate" in their prophecies. Such should send shivers down your spine from the get-go, as such is a clearly taught against in Scripture. E.g. Deuteronomy 13 & 18. While I fully believe in modern day prophecy being for today (1 Cor 14), I believe these guys to be diviners, not prophets. They are super-stars instead of humble servants of Christ. They prophesy for money and bleed people dry.

These guys are the center of the so-called "prophetic movement," which teaches people "how-to" prophesy, and to become "more accurate" in their prophecies.

I recently had a talk with someone under this 'prophesy' teaching... I am reaching out to a young man I know, he's the typical Seattle guy, long hair, tattoos, cigarette smoke and free love and all.

I was able to have an open door with him because he's going through a lot of stuff and he knows I love Jesus, and he thinks Jesus might have some answers to his problems.

The only problem is that one of the two girls that he's seeing is a member of a vineyard that is very heavy on the prophesy teaching.

In fact, even though she is compromising her testimony by being in a relationship with him, she believes that her relationship will bring him to Jesus -why? Well because someone with the gift of Prophesy told her that her relationship with him was within the will of God.

So now I'm caught in the middle and he doesn't know whose Jesus to believe in! I'm really at a loss for words as what to do.

I really need to pray and meditate upon how to continue reaching out to him. I gave the Christian sister a copy of Melody Greens 'Why a Christian shouldn't date an unbeliever.' But I really don't think that anything got through!

Right now I just kind of want to walk away from the situation... oh yeah, and the other girl that he's in a relationship with is pregnant and will most likely get an abortion! Meanwhile the Christian girl with the prophesy as her ammunition believes that she's destined to be with this guy, so she's doing everything she can to get him to break off all contact with this non Christian girl who's currently pregnant with his child!

I want the gift of prophesy for rebuking! Come on! Sorry, I needed to vent about prophesy and this was the first place I could do it.

While we can NEVER condone, justify, or rationalize away sin; we become just as guilty before God when we set ourselves up as judges. God alone knows the hearts...and while I love this website, when I read posts like King Jimmy's and the pompous self righteous indignation against other believers with whom his doctrinal position may be different and castigates them as he did, it deeply greives me and makes me never want to never visit this forum again. How can we call ourselves Christians and fall into this deplorable trap of setting ourselves up as such righteous judges???? It really baffles me. Were God to put our sins on public display who of us could stand blameless and unashamed...even our works of righteousness are as filthy rags in His sight.

But just as Jimmy Swaggart fell and Ravenhill was upset over that continually, also if Ravenhill knew of Paul Cain's fall he would treat him in the same way.

Actually, the part where he praised Paul Cain was in reference to the fall of Swaggart... he said Cain was different because of the accountability of his mother.

Sometimes I wish I could just give Brother Len a big hug... I suppose he was the kind of guy who liked big hugs. He was so trusting in everyone, he had such a big heart for everyone... and it was betrayed a lot too.

Maybe I should track down David Ravenhill and give him a hug for his pops.

Quote:

They prophesy for money and bleed people dry.

I wonder where this information comes from. I have been to a number of MorningStar's meetings and have followed their publications for many years and I have never seen what you are saying happen. They take up no more offerings than the normal church, which they are a church and I have never seen them espouse giving to get.Was it first hand that your witnessed this? Or is it from someone else?

Also was there not a school of the prophets in the Old Testament?

God alone knows the hearts...and while I love this website, when I read posts like King Jimmy's and the pompous self righteous indignation against other believers with whom his doctrinal position may be different and castigates them as he did, it deeply greives me and makes me never want to never visit this forum again. How can we call ourselves Christians and fall into this deplorable trap of setting ourselves up as such righteous judges???? It really baffles me.

It is hardly self-righteous indignation, nor is it simply treating somebody with whom I have a doctrinal disagreement with harshly. I have no problem getting along with other believers who don't hold the exact same doctrines as I. I get along with Cessationists & Calvinists alike just fine, and admire greatly some of them, even though I disagree with them. My friend, you were a bit presumptuous. I've been on this board a long time and have treated people kindly.

Rather than being self-righteous, it is righteous indignation that is jealous for the glory of God. Sadly, many of these "prophetic ministers" are far from being jealous over God's glory. That is why they give meaningless prophecies that bear nothing of God's heart. I live not too far from Morning Star's Charlotte campus, and have had occasion of visiting it before.

I have met a many people who have sat under Joyner & company's ministries, and am deeply grieved over the fruit (or actually, lack thereof) of their ministries. False prophecies and the resulting confusion abound. I've seen so many people with crippled Christian lives because of a "word" that they were trusting in failed.

One of the folks from the local "School of the Spirit" (Morning Star) came and prophesied over an individual at my church who was in a horrible car accident that left him with severe brain damage. To this individuals father they prophesied this person would be healed on Fathers Day of last year. Fathers Day came and went, and the guy was still in the same condition, if not worse. Then they said, "oops, misheard God... still growing in my gift..." and reset the date to a little down the road. That date came and passed as well.

Joyner and company are producing a legion of false prophets in our generation, because they themselves are false prophets. And all the time, they are stuffing their pockets full with the money they are making from all their "Prophetic Conferences" and publications that teach one "how-to" prophesy.

My judgment is righteous judgment. I don't take false prophets lightly. Nor do the Scriptures.

I wonder where this information comes from. I have been to a number of MorningStar's meetings and have followed their publications for many years and I have never seen what you are saying happen.

Money in the prophetic movement is made out of the never ending stream of conferences these guys hold. Then of course, there are the tapes, books, video's, music, dvd's etc. They are far from being cheap.

Also was there not a school of the prophets in the Old Testament?

There was a school of the prophets in the Old Testament. But they never taught people how-to prophesy. The so-called "School of the Prophets" was simply a group of prophets who generally centered around a prophet like Elijah. It seems "the sons of the prophets" (their disciples) simply aided the Sr. Prophet in his ministry as servants, and at times acted as arms of his ministry.

But, this is a far cry from being like the Morning Star school, where people are given some room to "flap their wings" and learn to fly through a trial & error process whereby one graduates by finally giving prophecies that are a lot more accurate than inaccurate.

How to deal with a judgemental situation.

One of the worst ways to confront a judgemental person or comment is with another judgemental person or comment.

A rule to live by is that when one percieves someone as being judgemental, don't be quick to point this out to them (or you may be falling in the same hole!), instead, encourage them to seek the heart of God!

In this situation one may say 'aren't you a little harsh to make such broad statements against such a doctrine, you're so judgemental!' Instead one COULD say, 'I don't know what your experience is with XYZ teaching or ministry, but I have seen them producing fruit (give examples), and I think it would be great if we could be more open minded about them!'

Instead of appearing judgemental, you appear knowledgable, encouraging and excited about XYZ ministry.

You could even go so far as to say that 'no ministry, theology, or teaching is 100% accurate and perfect, but I myself am seeking to know the heart of God, and worry about the theology later.' Thus admitting, that even though you support XYZ ministry, it may not be perfect, but that you don't believe in XYZ ministry, but instead your focus is on Jesus!

If everyone practiced this, this forum would be more civil on many fronts!

ian wrote:

So now I'm caught in the middle and he doesn't know whose Jesus to believe in! I'm really at a loss for words as what to do.

I want the gift of prophesy for rebuking!

Brother, you just have to do as we were taught at the Crises Pregnancy Center to do when confronted with situations like you are describing: confront! But how to do it remains the vexing question. We would ask them what do you think God thinks about this act/situation? Brother, in the deep south, the people will tell you accurately what God thinks: that they are going to hell OR that they believe that they are so good otherwise they are outside of the judgement of God! (Not accurate.)They say that, not me! Really. My point is that [likely] most people will know in their heart it is sin, now all you have to do is confirm to them what they are hearing the Spirit say! Jesus always confronted sin when he saw it and we cringe when we think about doing it like Jesus did.

Hope this helps.....I understand your dilemna, it is vexing, especially if you know these people on the personal level.

ginnyrose

chadster wrote:

How can we call ourselves Christians and fall into this deplorable trap of setting ourselves up as such righteous judges????

Mind of I ask you a question: would you evaluate the Apostle Paul with the same critisism you are directing towards people on this forum -identifying modern false prophets? Consider 1Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. 2Timothy 2:17-18: And their word will eat, as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Personally, I am glad when people are so kind to alert me to people who are false prophets. Often it will confirm to me what I had been sensing in my spirit. If I am ignorant of these people's existance, I will now know to not bother with their lit, their ministry, etc. Unless you have been deceived in your life by a false teaching, you will find this appreciation difficult. Trust me, I have already fallen into this trap, and when I discovered it, I had to deal with resentment for people who should have known but did not inform me. While that was relatively easy to deal with, what was not was my own ignorance and that I shared this 'doctrine' publically. I had a hard time forgiving myself. Trust me, THIS is hard! It took years before I could ever talk about it, it was so bad.

So please, consider that the people who are so kind to inform us that some people are not preaching the true gospel are doing the rest of us a favor, including me and you.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

At the first writing of this forum, I did not intend to begin a debate on false prophets/teachings and/or allow for condemnation to fly at everyone in such ways. I posted this so that I can find out more about Paul's ministry, teaching, beliefs etc. Yes,I realize that he has been involved in sexual sin and has been addictied to alcohol. He lives his live in the eyes of the Lord and the Lord is the only one to judge. 'Let the one who has known no sin to cast the first stone.' The funny thing is that the only one who can cast this stone refuses to do so.

As for Rick Joyner and his "company," it was also not my intention to drag his name through the mud or even to bring him into this. What is being said on here I do not believe. I do not believe he is a false prophet/false teacher nor are those in this nature around him. No, I can not speak from personal experience nor for everyone, but I have read some of his books and prophesies he has given and I believe them to be true. This is my personal opinion and the opinion of many around me.

Thus being said, I would appreciate if we could stick to the topic at hand and not continue to slander and judge one another. When the Lord looks at each of us, He sees His precious son/daughter. To continue speaking this way about one of the Lord's, is a sin and will hurt His heart. So please, can we just stick to the topic at hand?! Thank you.

You did not drag Rick Joyner's name through the mud nor Paul Cains. Nor did anyone else for this matter. Both of these men sought the limelight amongst God's people. Therefore they must stand in the light of His Word.

But we are commanded to test their doctrine, and prophecies and accompanying lifestyles with the light of the Word of God.

The principle of Deut.13:3-4 in which God is testing our hearts to see if we love Him with all our heart and soul and to keep walking after Him and holding fast to Him obedience.

This principle still holds true in the N.T.

God allows false prophets to test and try and purify our love for Him if we are willing.

Why would God bring full revival if we are unwilling to be diligent in this manner.

Some thoughts and Scripture,

Doug

Sir,
If what you wanted was to find more sites that contained info about Paul Cain, his sermons, all you had to do was google Paul Cain.....

There is one thing I find so very disturbing about people in ministry who are caught in gross sin. How many come forward on their own and say they are guilty and ask for forgiveness? Most of them are discovered by someone else and then confronted. Most had been involved in immorality a long time, it was not just one isolated incident...it was an ongoing thing. BIG difference. The sin of David was a one time thing; the woman brought to Jesus was told to go sin no more. Jesus did not tell her he would forgive without repentence. The OT law required a person involved in adultery to be stoned, not just the woman but the man as well. The story there tells us she was caught in the act, so why did they not bring him to Jesus for evaluation? Sir, immorality is terrible, ruins many lives....one cannot be alarmed enough about this sin. I have worked with fornicators and adulterers for many years besides having lived almost 60 years. The problem with modern Christianity is their ho-hum attitude towards this sin and the people committing it. We will never experience revival unless we develope a horror for sin, adultery included. If any minister is found guilty, for the sake of Christ he needs to be defrocked. It brings shame to the church if this is not the case. God is holy and he expects his ministers to reflect his holiness as well.

The last I looked I John 4:1 - is still in my Bible and the Holy Spirit still expects us to follow that command.

ginnyrose

Dear by unseen_call,

You are totally correct that this digressed into a free for all. You were asking a legit question and didn't receive much help. Forgive us for that.

Even though Paul Cain lapsed into sin, as did Peter, he had many things worth hearing and reading available on his web site that our moderator posted after your first post.

God did many awesome things through the man and I for one pray He will again. I don't want to write anyone off because of failure because I would have to write off the entire body, including myself. God called David a man after His own heart even though he had a man killed and stole his wife. Also the testimony about his (Paul Cain's) mother's healing is glorious, also available on his site.

I think that this will be my last post on this thread because God doesn't call us to vain disputings. I just want to say that I too do not believe Rick Joyner or the people I know associated with them are false prophets. In fact Rick Joyner doesn't even call himself a prophet. Yes he has prophecied, but he does not claim the office of a prophet, anyone who has really checked into his ministry would know that. I believe he genuinely loves and tries to build up the body of Christ. I also believe he loves his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Is he perfect, certainly not, but neither is anyone who made comments on this thread. One of the things Rick Joyner refuses to do is to criticize another ministry, he believes in building up rather than tearing down. However after over a decade of reading the MorningStar Journel and all his books I know he isn't soft on sin the devil or hell.

I also would like to say MorningStar Ministry is probably trying to instruct immature people in how to operate in the gifts of the Spirit so what happened to this family with the brain damaged relative doesn't happen. I have never heard them say go out an indiscriminately spit out whatever comes into your head. I thing they want people to wait on God and speak only what they hear Him speaking. To blame an over zealous person on Rick Joyner is not right, especially if you don't give him a chance to defend himself.

I want to stand on the side of love and mercy because that is what I want people to show me. I think MorningStar is doing a good work. Yes they bring in money with tapes, books,etc. But so do many other preachers that are listed on this site. Should we down them all for that. The only one I know who doesn't is George Warnock who won't sell his books but gives them away free as long as he finacially can.

I just want to leave this thread with a couple of scriptures and pray that we will love and have mercy on other brothers and sisters who are just like us, vessels that contain a great treasure. The vessels aren't much, the contents are awesome.

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For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1Cr 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

1Cr 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

1Cr 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

1Cr 12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling?

1Cr 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

1Cr 12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body?

1Cr 12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body.

1Cr 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

1Cr 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

1Cr 12:23 And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.

1Cr 12:24 For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked:

1Cr 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another.

1Cr 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

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Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

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I want to apologize for my post to this thread yesterday and ask forgiveness of my brothers and sisters and especially King Jimmy, against whom I brought a judgment. That was so wrong of me. God alone knows our hearts and He is the just and rightoeus judge. He calls us to unity and asks that we reflect His likeness and his attitude of grace and mercy. So I humbly apologize and ask for forgivness. I didn't need to come to anyone defense, for God will always vindicate His righteous servants, and worse yet, it was not my place to judge anyone. Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death? I am truly sorry and ask for everyone's forgiveness.

... because someone with the gift of Prophesy told her that ...

Pulled from a few responses back, this is the very trouble and often a cry from my heart about the sheer ramifications of these things. That it is often they think there to be none or do not just think period, I do not know.

Would go out on a limb here and state that if anyone out there is about to be 'prophesised' over I would stop them before they even got started. This is just a travisty and abuse of the scriptures to be teaching this sort of thing in this fashion. One would think it strange that these things are almost always an appeal to the ego, to some great upcoming feat, to one's 'ministry', being 'greatly used' or twisted and contorted outright against scripture itself, as is the case mentioned earlier here. The opposite being rarely the case, I.E. Act 21:9 and following.

And to address these abberations is needed and right to do so, it need not be full of malice or other conjecture as KingJimmy well pointed out. Let a more Godly minister speak wisdom to us about this;

"Hence also it is that men do so magnify their own opinions, and are as censorious of any that differ from them in lesser things, as if it were all one to differ from them and from God. They expect that all should conform to their judgment, as if they were the rulers of the Church's faith; and while we cry down papal infallibility, [i]too[/i] many of us would be popes ourselves, and have all stand to our determination, as if we were infallible. It is true, we have more modesty than expressly to say so. We pretend that it is only the evidence of truth in our reasons, that we expect men should yield to, and our zeal is the truth and not for ourselves. But as that must needs be taken for truth which is ours, so our reasons must needs be taken for valid. And if they be but freely examined and be found fallacious, as we are exceedingly backward to see it ourselves because they are ours, so we are angry that it should be disclosed to others. We so espouse the cause of our errors, as if all that were spoken against them were spoken against our persons, and we were heinously injured to have our arguments thoroughly confuted, by which we injured the truth and the souls of men. The matter is come to this pass through our [b]pride[/b], that if an error or fallacious argument do fall under the patronage of a reverend name (which is nothing rare), we must either allow it the victory and give away the truth, or else become injurious to that name that doth patronize it. For though you meddle not with their persons, yet do they put themselves under all the strokes which you give their arguments; and feel them as sensibly as if you had spoken of themselves, because they think it will follow in the eyes of others, that weak arguing is a sign of a weak man. If, therefore, you consider it your duty to shame their errors and false reasonings by discovering their nakedness, they take it as if you shamed their persons. And so their names must be a garrison or fortress to their mistakes, and their reverence must defend all their sayings from attack.

So high indeed are our spirits, that when it becomes the duty of any one to reprove or contradict us, we are commonly impatient both of the matter and the manner. We love the man who will say as we say, and be of our opinion, and promote our reputation, though in other respects, he be less worthy of our esteem. But he is ungrateful to us who contradicteth us and differeth from us, and dealeth plainly with us as to our miscarriages and telleth us of our faults. Especially in the management of our public arguings, where the eye of the world is upon us, we can scarcely endure any contradiction or plain dealing. I know that railing language is to be abhorred, and that we should be as tender of each other's reputation, as our fidelity to the truth will permit But our [b]pride[/b] makes too many of us think all men condemn us, that do not admire us, yea, and admire all we say, and submit their judgments to our most palpable mistakes. We are so tender that a man can scarcely touch us but we are hurt. We are so high-minded that a man who is not versed in complimenting and skilled in flattery above the vulgar rate can scarcely tell how to handle us so observantly-and fit our expectations at every turnwhithout there being some word or some neglect which our high spirits will fasten on and take as injurious to our honor."

Richard Baxter

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10733&forum=34]Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride[/url]

No problem chadster. Be blessed.

In fact Rick Joyner doesn't even call himself a prophet. Yes he has prophecied, but he does not claim the office of a prophet, anyone who has really checked into his ministry would know that.

How does the old saying go? If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then it must be... a duck. This is a problem I have with many in the "prophetic" movement. They don't claim to be prophets, yet go all around the country prophesying. Not only that, but they write lots of books about their prophetic revelations, dreams, visions, oracles, etc. Yet, they don't claim to be a prophet.

This is called speaking out of both sides of one's mouth.

Not only is this bad logic, but it is also bad theology. I know, many teach there is a difference between somebody who simply has the "gift" of prophecy vs. that of somebody who has the "office" of prophet. But this is no where conceived of in Scripture. Throughout the Scriptures the individual who has the "gift" of prophecy is regarded as a prophet. Numerous examples abound, even for those who simply operated in the gift once in their life time.

For example, the seventy elders of Israel prophesied, "and did not do it again." When it was reported to Moses that this phenomenon occurred, he declared, "oh that all the Lord's people would be prophets!" Then there is Saul, who, when the Spirit of the Lord came upon him he prophesied, and it was said of Saul, "Is Saul among the prophets?" And yet again, in 1 Cor. 14 when giving guidance to the church in Corinth on the use of spiritual gifts in the church, Paul equates the person who has the gift of prophecy as being a prophet.

So, Joyner and company can attempt to spin this all they want. But like most of what is taught in the prophetic movement, it simply has no foundation in Scripture.

I also would like to say MorningStar Ministry is probably trying to instruct immature people in how to operate in the gifts of the Spirit so what happened to this family with the brain damaged relative doesn't happen. I have never heard them say go out an indiscriminately spit out whatever comes into your head. I thing they want people to wait on God and speak only what they hear Him speaking. To blame an over zealous person on Rick Joyner is not right, especially if you don't give him a chance to defend himself.

Right, I know, such persons are labeled within the prophetic movement as simply being "immature" in their gifting, and that they need further instruction in how to more accurately hear from God and speak for Him. Few would ever label such activity as being sinful, and fewer would label such persons as being false prophets. Rather, they "just missed one." But, it's ok, these over zealous people meant well. They were just stepping out in faith! Their heart was in the right place after all! I'm sorry, one cannot falsely prophesy and have their heart in the right place. Nor should such activity be considered zeal.

And no, Rick Joyner is not false simply because somebody is going around and attributing their actions to him in some way. Joyner would be no more guilty than Jesus is for the Spanish Inquisition or crusades. And no, Rick Joyner is not teaching people to just go around and spit out whatever thought pops in their head.

But where Joyner and the rest of the prophetic movement enter into error is that they think they can actually teach somebody to prophesy, and that there is some learning curve to operating in such gifts. Thus, younger prophets won't be as accurate in their prophecies as older prophets like Bob Jones or Bill Hammon. You can no more teach a prophet to prophesy than you can a fish to swim. A fish swims because it has the ability to swim. A prophet prophesies because he has the God enabled gifting to prophesy.

That's not to say one cannot teach various prophetic principles by which a prophet should understand his call and operate in his gifting. Much like Samuel didn't realize he was hearing from God until Eli pointed it out to him that he was. But this is a far cry from what is taught in the prophetic movement today. Today it is taught that the young prophet might not know how to hear God quite as accurately. Thus, because he can't hear as accurately, his prophecies might be a little off. But as he "grows," he'll hear more accurately and thus prophesy more accurately. It's taught that because the principalities, powers, other demonic agencies, and our flesh gets in the way, and acts as a sort of cosmic static we have to learn to overcome, and only then can our prophetic gifting increase. Thus, at the Morning Star school of the Spirit I attended once, of the 6 or 7 folks they paraded on stage to take turns prophesying, these "prophets" (though they refused to label them such) got up there and gave the most idiotic utterances I've ever heard in my entire life, and were applauded for it! Thus, one woman got up there and said, "God said to me there is a woman here by the name of Mary...Marie...Maria... I'm not sure on the exact pronunciation... well, but God says..."

But such simply isn't Biblical. Never is the idea entertained in Scripture of a "prophet" growing in his prophetic gifting to become more and more accurate. Never is it taught in Scripture that we can come to hear God more accurate. Jesus said My sheep hear my voice. Either you have heard from God or you have not. And Moses promised that when God wanted to speak through a prophet, He would "put His word in their mouth." Thus, not only will they have fully understood what God has said, but they will have the fully enabled ability to speak what God has said through the gift of the Spirit.

So much more could be said. But, time doesn't afford me the chance to do so. I would encourage all of you who are interested in the prophetic, and believe God has gifted you with such, that the greatest thing you could do is to flee the error of men like Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, C. Peter Wagner, Bill Hammon, Cindy Jacobs, Bob Jones, Kim Clement, Steve Shultz, and the countless other false prophets who are robbing you and the rest of the body of Christ of what you could actually be in Christ. Failure to do so will cause you to enter into a never ending cycle of error, and cause much harm to not only yourself but those around you. Or, if I could be more plain: repent!

bartle wrote:
answer me this question....does a "humble servant of Christ", put the title "King" before his name and choose that as a moniker to post and rail about others?

you wrote:

Paul Cain going under "restoration" through Rick Joyner is like Richard Nixon receiving counseling from Bill Clinton

what kind of spirit is that statement?

as I said to Ian, [b]I have no idea who Rick Joyner, or Paul Cain, or what the "prophetic movement"[/b] is, but I know this, as I pray for Ted Haggard to be restored, so I pray for Paul Cain, thats called grace, thats called love.
(emphasis added - AI)

Wouldn't it be wiser to find out why Jimmy wrote this, than to criticise out of ignorance? If you have a problem with this, then why do you have an issue with the comparison being with "Nixon and Clinton"? After all, that could be complimentary, for all you know.

I am increasingly growing sick and tired of the Body of Christ masking complacency with a false notion of "grace and love". Grace is God's supernatural enabling that makes it possible to be saved, not some sentimental overlooking of wrong doing, because God thinks that we're more special than those He has to send to hell, for aligning themselves with the prince and principles of this world. And agape love requires absolute honesty, and therefore is conditional.

To say that warning people of potential sin, as displayed in "church leadership", is to say that both Christ and Paul sinned, when scripture leaves no such accusation. These people set themselves up as an example, and ask others to emulate them, as they emulate Christ, but then when they fall, which is almost always long before they confess any wrong doing, they expect everyone to be quiet and let them scurry off into the shadows. How much incalculable damage is done, when people emulate such a one, who is concealing his sin? We cannot choose what will and will not be copied.

Firstly bartle, don't you realise that "Jimmy" is a modification of "James" (ie, "King Jimmy" = "King James")? Jimmy Humphreys isn't claiming to be royal, but is referring to a Bible translation in his handle.

My recollection is that this was a nickname given him quite sometime back ...

Some insight behind the name:

At Bible college, especially last year, I had a great habit of paraphrasing the Bible in discussions. Once, I did it and received a funny look, and people wondered what version I was quoting. Since my name is Jimmy, I jokingly said "The King Jimmy Version." From that point on, one student started calling me "King Jimmy" on a regular basis, and making regular devotion and homage to me, e.g. bowing, allowing him to kiss my ring finger, etc. I still make a habit of paraphrasing the Bible... and why not, even people in the Bible did it... so :)

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2035&forum=13&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]PreachingToCannibals -> KingJimmy[/url]

Note the date of the post.

And I must agree with much of this sentiment. There is far too much in the way of ramifications of this whole prophetic business that I have seen and experienced as well. A post like Ian's precisely and yet just an example of where this can all lead. Whatever one's particular take on this 'gift' that it has turned into what it has ... It is just deeply grievous.

as I said to Ian, [u]I have no idea[/u] who Rick Joyner, or Paul Cain, or what the "prophetic movement" is, but I know this, as I pray for Ted Haggard to be restored, so I pray for Paul Cain, thats called grace, thats called love.

The 'manner' and the 'matter' of dealing with these things the whole point of Baxter's admonishen brought up here for our consideration.

Think it also warrants putting this definition out here for others to consider, from Philologo's reply to a very important question;

I don't completely understand the purpose of a New Testament prophet,

I love this little example of a prophet [color=0000ff]“And it came to pass, when the children of Israel cried out to the LORD because of the Midianites, that the LORD sent a prophet to the children of Israel, who said to them, “Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I brought you up from Egypt and brought you out of the house of bondage; and I delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of all who oppressed you, and drove them out before you and gave you their land. Also I said to you, “I am the LORD your God; do not fear the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.” But you have not obeyed My voice.’ ””
(Judg 6:7-10 NKJV)[/color] This man has 'insight' from God and delivers it with conviction as 'thus says the LORD'. This man is claiming that God is speaking through him.

In the NT period there are references to itinerant prophets, the best known being Agabus: [color=0000ff]“And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar.” (Acts 11:27-28 NKJV)

“Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied. And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. When he had come to us, he took Paul’s belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’ ”” (Acts 21:8-11 NKJV)[/color]This is a useful reference in that it speaks of people who 'prophesy' and of one who is a 'prophet'. Not everyone who prophesied was a prophet, not everyone who preached the gospel was an evangelist. It seems that some became well known for their 'gift' to such an extent that the gift characterised the man and some became 'prophets'. As far as I know, no one in the NT received a prophetic commission of the kind we read about in Isaiah or Jeremiah. Their ministry proved them to be prophets not their claims. There is a sobering warning of folk who claim things that we find in the book of the Revelation;[color=0000ff]“...And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;” (Rev 2:2 NKJV)[/color]Very frequently the word is found in the plural [color=0000ff]Acts 11:27 (KJVS) And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
Acts 13:1 (KJVS) Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain [u]prophets [/u]and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Acts 15:32 (KJVS) And Judas and Silas, being [u]prophets[/u] also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
1Cor. 12:28 (KJVS) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily [u]prophets[/u], thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Cor. 14:29 (KJVS) Let the [u]prophets[/u] speak two or three, and let the others judge.
Eph. 4:11 (KJVS) And he gave some, apostles; and some, [u]prophets[/u]; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [/color]... and it is interesting that when functioning in the local church Paul insists that their utterances should be assessed by their peers; 1Cor 14:29 It seems to me that we never find prophets working in independence or isolation; there is collective accountability.

It is important to distinguish between the occasional prophetic utterance in which [color=0000ff]“...you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.” (1Cor 14:31 NKJV)[/color] and the settled authority of a man identified as 'a prophet'.

Those referred to as 'prophets' in the NT are not wearing badges, they are identified as prophets because of their life and ministry. Words like 'apostle' and 'prophet' (and pastor!) were never used as titles or badges in the NT; they are simply descriptions of what they do. The modern phenomena of self-styled prophets is something quite different from the NT history. Such men usually claim to be 'prophets' to enhance their status and reception by others, rather than being called 'prophets' by others who have recognized a unique gifting in God.

As regards 'purpose'... they brought divine 'insight' into the gatherings of the saints.

From;
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14096&forum=35]Prophets Playing with Fire...[/url]

as I said to Ian, I have no idea who Rick Joyner, or Paul Cain, or what the "prophetic movement" is, but I know this, as I pray for Ted Haggard to be restored, so I pray for Paul Cain, thats called grace, thats called love.

I pray for those in the prophetic movement, as it is something that has touched my life and the life of those around me in a mostly negative way. I got caught up into it for a while, and am convinced that most of the leaders in it are false. My point was simply that Paul Cain going under a process of restoration through Rick Joyner is like Richard Nixon going under restoration through Bill Clinton. It's a hyperbolic statement to simply show the absurdity of it. For a false prophet will not "restore" a false prophet. Or as Jesus said, it's the blind leading the blind, where both will fall into the pit.

answer me this question....does a "humble servant of Christ", put the title "King" before his name and choose that as a moniker to post and rail about others?

I was given the name "King Jimmy" in Bible College. My real name is Jimmy, and when I was in Bible college we would sometimes be discussing something in class. Then, because my knowledge of the word wasn't very strong, when I would quote a verse I would tend to paraphrase it. Eventually one day somebody asked me back in class "What translation are you quoting?" To which I responded, "The King Jimmy Version." Over the next two years at school many of the students called me "King Jimmy." So, my handle has nothing to do with me thinking of myself as some monarchical figure.

Grace and love, try walking in it, or at the VERY least, resist the urge to hit the keyboard.

You shouldn't be so proud.

This is a useful reference in that it speaks of people who 'prophesy' and of one who is a 'prophet'. Not everyone who prophesied was a prophet, not everyone who preached the gospel was an evangelist. It seems that some became well known for their 'gift' to such an extent that the gift characterised the man and some became 'prophets'.

Even with what I have posted previously about in the NT those who prophesy being considered prophets, I would also tend to agree with this notion. That is, the concept behind it. For the concept of "offices" in the New Testament isn't this position steeped thing like many make it out to be.

One's "office" is what one is and of themselves, and functions out of. Or as it is said, "doing" issues out of "being." It is simply their function. Like I said previously, a fish swims because it is a fish. Swimming is becoming of fish. Likewise, a prophet prophesies because they are a prophet. Prophesying is becoming of a prophet. It's simply their function. And in the NT a person's calling is identified by what they do.

Thus, if you are known for prophesying, you would be called a prophet. If you are known for teaching, you would be called a teacher. Therefor, for one to give off regular prophetic utterances would make them a prophet, because doing prophetic ministry is what they do. And for the likes of Rick Joyner who frequently are given to "prophesy," yet deny being a prophet is simply unsound. From what I have seen in the prophetic movement, people who prophesy yet deny being prophets do so to for reasons of being less accountable for what they say should they "miss one." After all, if they "miss one" you can't really hold them accountable, for they really aren't prophets!

It's an amazingly sad thing to see.

I pray for those in the prophetic movement

What is amazing and grievous is that first principles of [i]who we are[/i] and are supposed to [i]be[/i] are lovers of truth and of God. Authenticity. Integrity. Honesty, ought to spell us and I must again raise the very pertinent question; Where is the factual, evidential proof of the ends of all this so called 'prophesying'. It is demanded is it not? That there is some sort of nefarious idea out there that these things should not be questioned or axiomatically given the benefit of the doubt because of whatever sincerity of the man, that because of this 'movement' it is supposed to lend itself it's own credence of acceptance, that even the words coming forth most often sound quite contradictory to anything of the character of the Lord ...

I am deeply afraid that we do not know our bibles and therefore do not know Gods word and therefore do not know our God as we ought. I would very much include myself here, I cannot but keep finding my own contradictions of what I think I may have formerly grasped and yet another [i][b]Have you considered?[/b][/i] comes in. It is often why the appeal is made to those who have studied their whole life long, that [i]do[/i] have some proper understanding and experience rightly dividing the word of truth.

Biblical literacy, studying Christian history and heritage is taking a back seat to whatever pop's into our fallen heads and turned out as ... The penchant for leaning on not only our own understanding, but our fickle emotions that change constantly is just a very poor way of going about gaining wisdom and understanding. And yet it is not only rampant, but accepted!

The very witness of the Spirit has it's own prior witness given for our benefit and as a check against these sort of things taking off on their own and yet we will not appeal to it? Be more than good Bereans, doing a quick reference checking, but Bereans at heart and soul and spirit, [i]living[/i] Bereans. It is just flabbergasting that we would not drop some things like a hot iron when they come to our attention, but to save face a whole assortment of defending and explaining, a misunderstanding of grace and love, of fear of giving offense or pride in hanging on to poor argument. Where is our true humility and disregard for having to be 'right'?

[b]Let God be true[/b] and the rest of liars, but at the least can we not be as honest to admit what we do not in fact know emphatically when we do not and are often just hovering around supposition?

We must get back to that very old and dusty and tried and true method of just hard work and study. It's not very glamorous or 'instant' or easy and is quite against the grain of our modern era. It's [i]brain sweat[/i] as Chambers put it.

Let me be even more forthcoming. Think I can bog my own poor self down here not heeding to what I ought to be doing. Praying. That along with study. Having cold hard facts and mangling the effort without a proper understanding of [i]The letter killeth[/i] ... How important this all is;

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

They just cannot be divorced from each other. I am still pondering just how much [i]Thy [b]theology[/b] killeth[/i] in this respect. The things handed down as doctrines of men, good men, men of God even can be misconstrued or raised to levels never intended by those same men. But it is all subject to testing and that we would rather be 'prophets' and teachers and evangelists rather than first learners ... Actually that has it's own trap if we are to cease or bring that same divorcement into that which is continual, [i]learning[/i], that willingness to drop even long held belief's when further light dawns.

Oh what will it take to get us just more down right honest about this life and what we do and do not know ...

Neil,

Nowhere in all this is any concern brought up about the [i]matter[/i] at issue. Going back to the original post here it would be natural to bring out concerns that some of us have in response.

Full well agree with much of the sentiment you mention but it would still be ignoring the problems associated and propagated by these same ministries.

If one feels they must call out false prophets, so be it, but we are not unaware of "satan's scheme's.

I again appeal to Baxter.

I feel to post one more item just to set the record straight so no one will be have incorrect information.

In the following quote by KingJimmy it leaves the impression that the work of restoration for Paul Cain is being done by Rick Joyner:

Paul Cain going under "restoration" through Rick Joyner is like Richard Nixon receiving counseling from Bill Clinton. Both Paul Cain and Rick Joyner are both false prophets. Both have prophesied doctrines that were by all means extra-biblical, and prophesied things that simply were not true. I don't say this full of venom or bitterness in my mouth.

[color=0000CC]I just wanted to correct anyones impression that the work of restoration is being done by Rick Joyner. What Rick Joyner and others did was confront Paul Cain with his sin. It is the ministry mentioned by our moderator that is working with him toward restoration.[/color]

sermonindex
Moderator
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\tQuote:
\t
\tCain, who recently celebrated his 77th birthday, has submitted to a restoration process under the covering of the board of RTV International Ministries in Pasadena and is currently undergoing treatment for both alcholholism and a recent diagnosis of a rare form of cancer.

Peace to all

How about a brother in the Lord?