Grace by Faith, A Much Needed Study

Orm,

How do you define grace? Is it divine enablement? Is it mercy? Or what is it?

ginnyrose

Orm wrote:
,

I see it as the presence of God in the Earth....Made manifest in the flesh of Jesus, now manfested in the saints....if indeed they are saints. This opens up all kinds of thinking and expectation.

You can be more specific then that!

ginnyrose

That thinking is totally false, that is unless it can be supported by a non-twisting of scripture.

Praise Jesus!! Lion of Judah!!

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Blessings Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

I asked this to be s study, not an argument. There should be no "bogging down", but a challenge to anyone to search the scriptures and make better distinctions.

Brother Ormly wrote:

Grace is a gift of God to man that reveals Himself.

Would you illustrate by the use of Scripture examples where God reveals Himself to those who are acted upon by His grace.

In Christ
Jeff

Grace is a gift of God to man that reveals Himself.

Yesterday I encountered God’s grace through two preachers at a gospel meeting. Then later I saw this thread. That’s when something clicked in my mind: Grace is a concept you help another understand, not merely by attempting to define it, but by having it real in yourself and exuding it! Let me explain more:

This meeting was put on by a Christian group that normally meets in homes, but periodically holds gospel meetings in rented spaces. Their itinerant pastors (whom they call workers) own no property and few worldly possessions. They receive no income other than unsolicited love offerings. The priority of their lives, even as they travel from community to community, is to sit at the feet of Jesus and learn from him. Their goal is to be transformed by him, and through their communion with Jesus and his word, they receive their message for the people.

Yesterday’s meeting was held in a Catholic School Gym. The ladies all wore skirts and had their long hair in buns. They sang old hymns, unaccompanied. Yet, in this environment I met the grace of Jesus. Two ladies (workers) each preached a pure and beautiful message from the Word. Grace oozed from them. My heart was stirred, not merely because of the words that were spoken, but because I saw the grace of God in those women, even when shaking their hands afterwards, Last night I came to know a deeper measure of God’s unmerited love and favor for me. I knew God would be with me and would enable me to live for him.

Ormly, I realize that we need to rescue words from the fate of sloppy usage, yet I fear that we risk killing a word in the relentless process of defining it. Conversely, we make its meaning come alive best when it is alive in our own hearts and others experience the real thing through us.

Surely, Ormly, you best ensure that SIers understand grace, not merely by trying to get them to define it correctly, but letting them experience it as it emanates from you, as the outcome of your own communion with the Master. You define it by being a living illustration. Surely the more you know his abounding grace towards you, the more your words will radiate with grace. Then others could sense it for real, and be strengthened by it, and be drawn to the Giver of grace. Isn’t that actually what you would wish?

" 'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
and grace my fears relieved.."
John Newton (Amazing Grace)

Diane

If you are looking for experiences that temporarily satisfy,

Of course that can be said about any concept taught in the Bible. Imagine a discussion about mercy if we are not merciful to one another in our converstaions. Imagine having a converstation about joy when everybody is mad at each other.

See my drift? If we want to explain something we best desmonstrate it by living it and in it.

That's why I quoted John Newton's words in Amazing Grace. He defined grace by sharing his experience of it in a song. And what a lovely hymn his words made! I am sure that those who knew this changed man experienced grace and understood it more through his manner of relating with them than through his all of sermons on grace.

Diane

I understand, however, it is/was not my intention to single out one's error nor the specifics in which it was addressed but rather the teaching in general that has left many with questions that can't be reconciled given the teaching they embrace. "Tulip" comes quickly to mind.

Orm, we have come to understand that your explanations sometimes are somewhat confusing and would only add far less than my own. Coming back to things after once again reconsidering I often find myself thinking; [i]"Well that's just [u]poor[/u][/i]". In other words, I knew what I meant to say, but somehow it got completely mangled in the translation and outworking.

given the teaching they embrace

"Tulip" comes quickly to mind

"The teaching in general"

Ah yes. Moving on ahead of all that pleading ...

I asked this to be s study, not an argument.

but a challenge to anyone to search the scriptures and make better distinctions.

[i]make better distinctions[/i] ! Very much like the way you put that.

Romans, Chapter 8 through Chapter 11 this morning. And the dwelling once again on [i]predestination[/i] and election, foreknowledge, calling ... And then come all the tremendous other words; Faith, mercy ... [i]grace[/i].

So much I could say, so much still percolating. My loosely held suspicion of divine mystery hasn't been shaken off it's moorings but even more cemented in that mystery ... Always the wiggle room nonetheless.

Ravenhill's description of Paul's great intellect came up revisiting this again as if for the very first time. And the sense was one of breaking out into an inward smile as [i]"Oh this makes perfect sense ... and I will never be able to explain it!"[/i]

That we would always read things through in their context, the [i]whole[/i] thought, from beginning to end, and that also means having to travel backwards to pick up the dialouge or discourse to at least some point of reference and then regaining back on to the train of thought until it is 'finished'.

I am exuding here in that regular rambling fashion, my apologies that brevity still escapes me. Rather than step all over the path you are laying out here regarding grace and faith and how you may be wishing to extract all this ...

[i]Who are you ...?[/i]" Says Paul.
[i]What shall we say then?"[/i]
[i]"Why have you made me like this"?[/i]
[i]"Is God unrighteous?"[/i]
[i]"Do not say in your heart...[/i]"

The branches and the root, the casting off and grafting in. [i]Be not haughty, but fear.[/i]

There is just so much pure theology answered and explained within these few chapters ... everything from the classic OSAS, to all the argument of predestination and election ... Have mentioned this before but there is something of a switch off when it comes to being a bit too scientific in dissecting the scriptures as if we could extract the very DNA from it and create our own development, a perfect understanding and explanation. The beauty of Paul's 'intellect' is that it is spiritual of course but also that he does not strip mine out the mystery of God. [i]Hard to understand[/i] as Peter spoke and the twisting thereof by the unstable ... aren't we all in some fashion? Perhaps the difference only being in the measure of admittance and honesty.

Let me cut myself off here. The word that truly jumped out at me as the great consideration of what might be meant by all the foreknowledge of God and His great mercy and grace ... where this whole idea of 'fixed' determination is suspect the way it can be couched in terms of election ...

[i]Provocation[/i].

Does are experience of Jesus Christ and He revealing Himself to us, have anything to do with who WE ARE?

Mahoney, you are good at fine-tuning ideas! This is a great question.

Of course, personal receptivity is needed. I admit that I need to trust God’s grace and goodness regardless of whom I am with or what church I am in. But if those ministering to me don’t have it to give, I’m sure not going to get it from them! And neither will any one else there.

God has called us to communicate his nature by having his nature, not merely by explaining his nature. If we are not seasoned with grace, how can we be the salt of the earth? Might I suggest that one’s inability to extend grace towards others is a sign that God’s grace is not being experienced in that person’s life.

Something to ponder:
How do I experience God's grace?
Do others see God's grace through me?

Diane

Grace is a gift of God and faith is an enablement of man from creation to believe..

This is simply put but rather sound.

Grace, I love this word, hearing of it, reading of it, and most definitely living by it..moment by moment.

I feel that while God sustains His children's life through eternity by Grace, He maintains this life of ours by giving us faith. How marvellous HE is to us indeed, also, how unimaginable for any of us if He hadn't given us His Word!!

Yes, His Grace is more than sufficient for me.

Thank you Orm for all those verses you posted to remind me of His Grace, yes, and that shows me His grace in you.

May God bless you more so each day!

mamaluk

I am getting of the opinion that this subject isn't of much interest. Sad shame since so much is dependent upon grace and faith; so much of what is yet to come upon us.

Well Orm, felt much the same way about [i]Pride and Humility[/i] ... Far often seems if it isn't some sort of hostility, bible translation or other controversy ... Things ought to be discussed with a penchant towards giving and receiving help and a willingness for learning yet, think Ian hit cut to the heart of the issue;

I also imagine that an athiest forum is much like this forum -people go there looking to argue or fight over some bit of knowledge, and no matter how many tomes can be written in the forum, generally the people tend to stick to their original battle lines... no offense to anyone on this forum.

Sadly, he is more often right. For a place so rich in depth and understanding ... the sheer lack of humility and the exceedingly rarity of an honest assessment, just even the word [i]consideration[/i] is ran roughshod over by pride and a haughty spirit.

In the tenure that I have been here it is not always so, but it is more often than not. So much good is just pushed off, out into oblivion for the next wrangling. Just as well, and the best way I can put it is; "Flare Ups". A handful of new members come in with little patience and an unwillingness to truly find out, search out the vast resources here, overzealous, immature and worse, even those who ought to know better jump into a fray adding contentions upon contentions, fixed agenda's and pontificating ... Everybody wants to be a preacher, a scholar, an expert. Learners seem to be few or perhaps they are the silent ones ...

Patience... Giving place to others. Re-considerations. A change of mind. A change of heart.

But it is not always so Orm. Even this here have been giving much thought to. Have something all written out from yesterday and held off ... A whole different battle was at hand, a bloody one if I could put it that way... How delusional we can be about ourselves ... 1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Take heed.

At any rate, it was just a looking at the things that struck me going through Romans towards grace, just more of an open exploration ... Carry on your thoughts brother, we do know that the flip side of this is that a lack of response does not always indicate a ignoring of the subject.

Grace

Musing ... God's [i]desire[/i]?

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[b]full of grace and truth[/b]; that is, he dwelt among men, and appeared to have a fulness of each of these: for this clause is not to be joined with the glory of the only begotten, as if this was a branch of that; but regards him as incarnate, and in his office, as Mediator; who, as such, was full of "grace"; the Spirit, and the gifts of the Spirit; of all the blessings of grace, of justifying, pardoning, adopting, sanctifying, and persevering grace; of all the promises of grace; of all light, life, strength, comfort, peace, and joy: and also of truth, of all Gospel truths; and as he had the truth, the sum, and substance of all the types and prophecies concerning him in him; and as he fulfilled all his own engagements, and his Father's promises; and as possessed of sincerity towards men, and faithfulness and integrity to God,

John Gill

Happy to hear this ... differently. That is, rather than starting with an edifice of a statement and seeking to support or tear it down, which is very often our trouble is it not? Something like [i]irresitable grace[/i] and it's accompaning defenition, the inclusion in a 5 point system makes it something for a holding of the fort; All the arguments are subject to it's own defining. That is neither a specific knock or disregard. [i]Better distictions[/i], even [i]other[/i] distictions, just plain old consideration.

One of the very beauties of even SermonIndex is the challenges that come from a collection of different perspectives and I have found it quite happily to be more often complimentary, these great spirits of the living God, living past their expiration date.

One that comes to mind is something Zac Poonen is fond of exerting about another edifice of a statement; Grace being the "[i]Lord's unmerited favor[/i]" and his almost violent reaction as "[i]He merited every last bit of it![/i] in conjunction with the cross.

Another quick, redundant wrench in all this; "Camp's", how wearying the axiomatic and diabolic mind surgery we often feel so inclinded to do when even just to peer into things; "Ah, [i]Arminian[/i] you are then ...", "Calvinist", no different than the political landscape that colors everything into clean shades of "Conservative\\Liberal", always having to have a label to stick, a place to put ... The wonder that anything can be accomplished in dialouge with all these notions and suspicions ... The stranglehold of [i]pre[/i]-judice, [i]pre[/i]-sumption. These idols of the mind... So much for quick.

Just to look at the word with it's definitions, Hebrew and Greek respectively;

[b]H2580[/b]
חן
chên
khane
From H2603; graciousness, that is, subjectively (kindness, favor) or objectively (beauty): - favour, grace (-ious), pleasant, precious, [well-] favoured.

[b]G5485[/b]
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

[b]"the divine influence upon the heart"[/b]

[b]Thanksworthy[/b]

Purposefully staying away from some of the more usual aspects latched unto to see what else is being draw from this marrow. Going back to Romans and my own musing of wonder at all this in Paul's articulation, having left off with [i]provocation[/i]. Generally speaking the word seems to have a negative conotation; [i]Provoke[/i] and ,well ...

[b]H4784[/b]
מרה
mârâh
maw-raw'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make) bitter (or unpleasant); (figuratively) to rebel (or resist; causatively to provoke): - bitter, change, be disobedient, disobey, grievously, provocation, provoke (-ing), (be) rebel (against, -lious).

Guess I have no argument otherwise, to look at it's defenition.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [i]rather[/i] through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Whenever Paul want's to emphesis anything by way of pre-sumption; "[i]God forbid![/i]" is layed to the charge. Love that. [i]Rather[/i], ... My, what a powerful word to dwell on, it just sort of startled me in my tracks here. [i]Rather[/i] ... [i]Grace[/i]? "Provoke" = Grace?

What I am looking at through these expressions in Romans is just how uncanny it all is, this [i]grace[/i] that has become just run right over having much more in our day the attachment of [i]God forbid![/i] ..."Shall we sin that ... [i]grace[/i]? ... [i]God forbid[/i]!"

Ah, I am want to go off in ten different directions at the same time as a certain spiritual excitement is brewing, hastily trying to force out an expression. Just to look back at the Lords dealings with Israel. Over and over and over again ... [i]Grace[/i]. It's stupendous. This provoking, to envy, to jeolousy, suddenly the echo of Paris Reidhead's terse exclamation comes into the hearing; [i]Because [b]I love them![/b]

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the [b]goodness and severity of God[/b]: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This has again become just [i]fixed[/i] in the thoughts. The [b][i]both[/i][/b] of the matter. Having a hard time controlling these divergences, maybe they can make sense by reading between the lines. Why to place this here, now ...

Israel. The grace shown to them [i]despite[/i] everything, the choice passages Paul brings in;

Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

[i]Severity[/i]

Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

[i]Goodness[/i]?

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

[i]Severity[/i]

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

[i]Goodness![/i]

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Rom 11:2-4

Skipping on purpose the more usual emphesis for the moment, the next couple of verses ...

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:7-10

[i][b]Severity[/b][/i]

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

There it is again; [i]God forbid![/i] And, [i]provoking[/i].

A good place to stop and leave pondering having almost come full circle. A couple of things that are hanging in the mysterious air in relation to this profound word, [i]Grace[/i].

Forgiveness
Second, third and multiple thousand "[i]second chances[/i]"

Pardon.

[i]For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich[/i]. 2Co 8:9

Brother Ormly wrote:

Grace does the drawing while faith takes him there.

I might say that grace becomes the "substance hoped for."

Our path defines the evidence of what we hope for. So the grace of God acts upon what our hearts and minds strive after. Faith is acquired by us through following the path that is lite before us by the Light of Life.

Examples of saints in Scripture paint a picture of what grace does in the lives of those who live by faith. Wisdom and understanding is framed by Scripture. As one grows in understanding, one will recognize the hand of God in their life. Scripture is given to us so that we might recognize the works of His hands. This is how we are enabled to discern between the "truth" and the 'lie."

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ormly quoted:

1 Cor. 1:10 (KJV)
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Paul exhorts and pleads with the Corinthians that they seek to be joined together with the same mind and same judgment that is found in the name of Christ. We all come to Christ as did the Corinthians. We were all dead in our sin. We all had affections and hopes that were founded in the things of this world.

Our hopes were conformed to the darkness of this age. Each of us are unique in our own world of darkness. Some are motivated to fulfill the lust of the eyes. Some are motivated to find fulfilment in the things which establish pride of self. Some are motivated to seek fulfilment in the lust of the flesh. All these things and philosophies define the 'substance' of what we once hoped for.

The grace of God that is found in the Light of Life, Jesus Christ, is sown forth to man. In Him exists all truth, all righteousness. The Light shines in the darkness. We like the Corinthians are freely given all things that pretain to Christ. The Light shows each of us our own darkness unique in each of us.

The "substance" that causes us to draw near to our Lord finds it source in the Light. The content of the "substance" is unique to each individual who submits to the Light. The content of the "substance" is the energy expended upon the clay by the Potter's hands. This energy is brought forth by the Holy Spirit. It is dependent upon the wisdom of God through the Holy Spirit to birth in us the nature of our Savior Jesus Christ. The "substance" of this work is a unique experience in each individual because we all differ in the things we once hoped in. It is Christ who show us our darkness. It is Christ who brings situations into each of our lives that teach us about our own nature, and about His righteousness. It is Christ's effort brought forth by the Holy Spirit, that begins to change the "substance" of what we hope for.

As the 'substance" is added to according to His wisdom, we are changed from faith to faith, glory to glory. We experience how He loves us. We experience how we grieve the Holy Spirit. We experience how He overcomes the things we once strived to obtain. As we learn a new way of life sustained by living water we also begin to "know" that we are in the shelter of His wings. We "know" a hope that will ever increase. This becomes the evidence of things not seen by this world. This evidence testifies of the glory of the Lord working in us which hallows His Name before this lost world and all of it's vanity.

All of this is found by those who "hear His word." The unity of Christ is brought about by "hearing His word" as the Holy Spirit applies it to our hearts and minds.

The question is always before us, He who has ears let him hear.

In Christ
Jeff

….. The "substance" that causes us to draw near to our Lord finds it source in the Light. The content of the "substance" is unique to each individual who submits to the Light. The content of the "substance" is the energy expended upon the clay by the Potter's hands. This energy is brought forth by the Holy Spirit. It is dependent upon the wisdom of God through the Holy Spirit to birth in us the nature of our Savior Jesus Christ. The "substance" of this work is a unique experience in each individual because we all differ in the things we once hoped in. It is Christ who shows us our darkness. It is Christ who brings situations into each of our lives that teach us about our own nature, and about His righteousness. It is Christ's effort brought forth by the Holy Spirit, that begins to change the "substance" of what we hope for.

As the 'substance" is added to according to His wisdom, we are changed from faith to faith, glory to glory.

Rookie, your words paint a magnificent portrait of God’s grace. I remember hearing Ron Bailey say that Biblical words are never meant to be extracted from their setting - that is isolated from the other words of Scripture. They need to remain in their settings in order for their true meaning to be understood. You have placed the word “grace” into the bigger picture, and in that way it comes alive with meaning. I realize that when Paul opened and closed his epistles with “Grace and peace be with you”, all those truths would have been packed into his little greeting.

We experience how He loves us. We experience how we grieve the Holy Spirit. We experience how He overcomes the things we once strived to obtain. As we learn a new way of life sustained by living water we also begin to "know" that we are in the shelter of His wings. We "know" a hope that will ever increase. This becomes the evidence of things not seen by this world.

This is really what I meant earlier when I cautioned about the importance of experiencing grace. I was not referring to any superficial emotional charismatic experience, but the inner knowing by the illumination of the Spirit. Without this our faith in the sufficiency of God’s grace may be no more than a trust in our intellectual knowledge about grace and a faulty assumption of our salvation. I guess that is always the risk of studying the meaning of Biblical terms: We end up equating the knowledge of the thing with the real thing. On the other hand, when we experience God’s grace for real, we may be silenced - left with only words like these:

Grace. It's stupendous.

Our experience of God’s grace is evidence that we are indeed born from above. And nothing other than the real thing (substance) in us can communicate the reality of God’s grace to the dying world:

This evidence testifies of the glory of the Lord working in us which hallows His Name before this lost world and all of it's vanity.

The proof that God’s grace reigning in us us is revealed in the way we treat others - beginning with those closest to us. After all, you can't give what you lack.

The proof that God’s grace is at work in hearts is revealed in the life of the Body. There will be a moving towards unity and maturity. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us.” Rom. 12:6

Diane