A refutation of the five points of Calvinism

I did not post this to try to start a debate or to change anyone. It is a very good study. Don't be afraid to re-examine.

This particular study is a refutation of the five points of Calvinism. More specifically, it is a response to a booklet titled, TULIP: What We Believe about the Five Points of Calvinism by John Piper.

[color=CC0000]My nick name being tjservant and his name being David Servant is purely coincidental. [/color]

[b][color=000000][font=Arial]The Five Points of Calvinism Considered[/font][/color][/b]
By David Servant

Introduction

Calvinistic theology is usually explained by focusing on the five major Calvinistic doctrines, which are: (1) Total Depravity, (2) Unconditional Election, (3) Limited Atonement, (4) Irresistible Grace and (5) Perseverance of the Saints. All five points are more or less related to each other, so that one has a hard time accepting or rejecting one point without doing the same with the other four. They are easily remembered by using the acronym TULIP.

This particular study is a refutation of the five points of Calvinism. More specifically, it is a response to a booklet titled, TULIP: What We Believe about the Five Points of Calvinism by John Piper.

My purpose in writing is to clearly show where Calvinism contradicts Scripture and logic, and to challenge Calvinists to consider a different position. Calvinism is flawed on at least three levels: (1) by the focus on certain “supportive” scriptures and the ignoring of scores of scriptures that clearly contradict Calvinistic interpretation of the “supportive” ones (2) by unnatural and forced interpretations of certain scriptures and (3) by faulty logic that often contradicts itself. When we take the whole balance of Scripture, accept the most natural interpretation of what is written, and maintain a logic that is consistent, we do not arrive at the five points of Calvinism.

I hope that my comments are not taken to be against Calvinists, but against the doctrines of Calvinism, because I love and respect any Calvinist whose Lord is Jesus. I have enjoyed other writings by John Piper as well as other Calvinists, and I often serve in ministry along side of Calvinistic Christians who are devoted servants of Christ. I have, however, written rather passionately on some points, because I am passionate for God’s glory. If those passionate points seem harsh, please forgive me.

Near the end of his booklet, Piper quotes legendary Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon, who said that he began as an Arminian (Arminians disagree with all five points of Calvinism), like everyone else. This is a telling remark because it is so true. No one begins as a Calvinist. They only become Calvinists as they are taught Calvinism. Piper’s own testimony is no different. He admits “many years of struggle” (p. 1, prgh. 4) before he was able to accept Calvinism. Perhaps even more difficult than the struggle to accept Calvinism is the struggle to reject it after one has struggled so hard to accept it. But it can, and has, been done.

John Piper writes, “We are open to changing any of our ideas which can be shown to contradict the truth of Scripture.” I’m glad to know that, because I am about to show how Piper’s ideas contradict the truth of Scripture. May I say that I am also open to scrutiny of my comments by anyone who presents a logical and scriptural argument, as I too, like so many Calvinists, am sincerely desirous of understanding God’s truth. Although I have given this paper to a number of Calvinists, I'm still waiting for any refutation. If you are a Calvinist who can't refute what I've written, you are not a Calvinist at all. If you cannot defend what you say you believe, you don't really believe it.

How difficult it is to truly be open to truth that challenges our long-held beliefs! May God help us all, by His grace, to comprehend His great plan of salvation.

[color=990000]This is the link to the rest of the article, it is quite lengthy.[/color]

[url=http://www.shepherdserve.org/calvinism/calvin_one.htm]The Five Points of Calvinism Considered By David Servant [/url]

[color=660000]God bless[/color]

[color=990000]TJ[/color]

Why must God through ages past use all kinds of works by man to show him that man cannot please God no matter what he does. That is by mans own innocence, Lost, by man's own conscience, deprived of innocence, man cannot govern himself, man cannot keep laws, man cannot save himself. God has said by His Son, Ye must be born again. Just what does this mean? It takes a heavenly person to see the things of the Kingdom of God. How can any man be heavenly or see the Kingdom of God. Only three that I know of, Enoch an Elijah an Moses, "Mount of Transfiguration", these three are the only ones to see the Kingdom and be there, except Jesus Christ, that I know of. God must put another Person in anyone that has been convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit and believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is the Person that will be put into that believer. God is Justified in making Christ the new life of a new Creature, that is a Christ-one, Christian, who were first called this in Antioch through Paul.

This revelation was given to Paul by Jesus Christ Himself and so speak all of his epistles. That is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". In Christ and Christ in us, this is salvation of the believer and it has nothing to do with the believer except to believe what God has said about man's deprived state before his new birthing by Christ in him, who is the only Savior that will save to the utmost.

I don't know if this is Calvinism, but it is the Word of God, There is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ and only one way to believe in Jesus Christ and that is revealed by the Father. Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

In Christ a new creation race of People by the birth of Christ in them of the Seed of our Father: Phillip

Actually about 90% of mainstream denominations agree with at least 3-4 letters of TULIP... Heck, even as a Southern Baptist (and you know we hate hyper calvinists) I can't just totally dismiss the whole acronym for a mistaken letter or two.

Can a Christian lose his or her Salvation?
One major debate within Christian circles is the question of whether or not a Christian can lose his or her salvation.
Arminians argue that true believers can sin so much that they lose their faith and perish. Some Christians respond by arguing that once a person professes faith in Jesus, he is eternally secure in his salvation and—even if he commits complete apostasy (“falls away”) and vocally rejects Jesus Christ—will still go to heaven, for “once saved, always saved.” In light of
the biblical doctrine of predestination, how should we understand the security we have under God’s care? There have been three main approaches to the question:

1. Classic Arminianism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
“The believer who loses his faith is damned.”

2. Antinomianism
• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.
“The believer who loses his faith is saved.”

3. Classic Calvinism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
• Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with.
• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.
“The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.”

Proponents of the first two approaches quote biblical references, but each must strain to explain away the other group's biblical data.

How can an Arminian read Romans 8, then tell true believers that they may screw up and go to
hell??? Then again, how can Charles Stanley read Hebrews 6 and 10 and tell unbelievers who once professed faith not
to worry, that they will be saved???

Any true biblical teaching must “fit” with ALL the biblical data, without pitting one text against another and without having to explain away a single “jot or tittle” of God's inerrant Word. I believe that only the
classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data.
Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and they’re right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldn’t use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and “once saved, always saved.” But both of these views are wrong is assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is “a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast.” Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19).
Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. As the Westminster Assembly concluded, Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to be chief among the apostles! Two biblical principles must
be held side-by-side:
1. You Must Persevere until the End: God's Requirement of His People
God does not merely command us to begin to believe for a time, and then fall away. He requires us to continue to believe until the end, living lives of repentance and covenant faithfulness. Granted, He does not ask for a perfect faith, but He
does ask for a real faith, one that produces real, lasting change.
• Colossians 1:21-23
• 1 John 1:5-10; 3:3-6
• Hebrews 10:26-31
• Hebrews 12:1

2. You Will Persevere Until the End: God's Preservation of His People
We will persevere because God preserves us. God will keep us from falling—not one will be lost of all those who belong
to the Son. True believers are not able to leave Christ, for Christ is at work within them.
• John 6:38-40
• John 10:28-29
• Romans 8:28-39
• Philippians 1:4-6
• Philippians 2:12-13
• 1 John 2:19
This first set of texts cannot be used to refute the second (Arminianism); nor can the second set of texts be used to refute the first (cheap grace). The point that makes the two compatible is the biblical teaching that faith (while commanded of everyone) is a gift from God to His elect. If faith is simply a human action of a free will, then it can be lost. But if saving faith is God's gift, then it cannot be lost. Can professing Christians fall away? Yes, and they will perish. Can
true Christians fall away? No, for they are kept by the invincible power of God in Christ. The Bible teaches us that professing Christians who leave the faith were never truly believers (1 John 2:19; and notice the qualification even in Hebrew
s 10:39).

Please be open minded and read the article. I want to hear responses to the article. It is very good. Please read it.

If one can loose their salvation, then his salvation is not of God. In loosing it, he must be the one to obtain it. Salvation is of God, by Jesus Christ birthed in you and God is no abortionist. "If" Christ is in you, you did nothing to put Him there, Christ will finish His work in each of His Father's Children. Amen

IN, that is "IN" Christ: Phillip

Getting saved does not make you a robot, but it does give you the ability to love God with a love that He can accept, the love of Christ in you. God showed me through a dream, yes a dream, I could see a light and ran after it because I was in pure darkness, black as sin. The harder I ran the father and dimmer the light got. When I stopped running the light came to me. When the light engulfed me, the blackness began to go away and the light got brighter and brighter, then the light beckoned me to bask in its warmth and the warmth filled me and the light and warmth began to emanate from me and was taken in by the great light encompassing me.

It took 14 years to understand the dream. Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

My love before Christ was birthed in me was not good, in fact it was as dirty rags to God, black as sin, I loved to get something back. The love of Christ is pure and seeks nothing in return, no matter what is ask of it, only to obey and seek to love as it is loved, pleasing the One that is Loving Me first.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

No man can love his wife as Christ loved the Church, but when the Love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by our being born again into the Spirit of Christ and He in new creation creatures, then a man, he seeking Christ and His Love, can then begin to learn how to love his wife as Christ Love the Church and gave Himself for Her. Renew our minds.

To love God is a good work, to love your wife is a good work, but it is not until Christ is birthed in you that a person can love with the Love of Christ. Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Tts 2:14 Who gave Himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

This is not a robot, but a born again creature with the nature of God's Love now in Him and the creature can now love as God Loves you. A wonderful Love that man cannot attain with the Love of God in him, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Loose salvation? Not for a second.

In Christ: Phillip

[size=large]will someone[/size]
[size=x-large]Please[/size]
[size=xx-large]Read The Article[/size]
[size=large]and respond[/size]
I have heard hundreds of scriptures and peoples ideas on this subject, and while I respect them, I really am needing help from my brothers and sisters in regards to
[size=large]this article[/size]

Please, if anyone has time this week, give it a read and let me know what you think

God bless

TJ

i dident read the whole thing, he does make some points that made me think...

like

Calvinists often decry the position of non-Calvinists, accusing them of making man responsible for his own salvation (which is a false accusation). Yet Calvinists make God responsible for the damnation of billions! Clearly, the God of Calvinism hates people even before they are born, when He determines that their eternal fate will be incarceration and agony in hell. If God is solely responsible for the salvation of certain people, He is also solely responsible for the damnation of everyone else, because only He could have rescued them from their fate, but He decided not to do so. And that decision was not predicated on God’s inability to stop sin, but His unwillingness to stop it. Thus God wills sin in select people’s lives. To the Calvinist, man doesn’t stop sinning because he has no choice, but because God, who can stop sin, chooses not to! God is thus even more “totally depraved” than we are!

he got a point there
but what is it whit the article you want response on? its quite long and there are very much to respond to......
is there any special parts in the article you are thinking about or just if we agrees whit what he writes?

God is thus even more “totally depraved” than we are!

I think an apologetically- minded Calvinist would probably argue that God defines what is good. God's character is what defines good. So, what ever God does it good because He alone is good.

They might say, "I get my definition of 'good' from how the Bible describes God. The Bible describes God as being absolutely sovereign in that He causes every action. And what do you apeal to for you definition of 'good?' Yourself?" The argument would then be that you are appealing to yourself as the one who dictates what is ‘good’ rather than the Bible.

I'm not Calvinist, but that is a brand of Christian apologetics that comes out of the Calvinist school of thought. It's called presuppositional apologetics.

hmmhmm wrote:

but what is it whit the article you want response on? its quite long and there are very much to respond to......
is there any special parts in the article you are thinking about or just if we agrees whit what he writes?

I guess I want to hear responses to the article in general and to his conclusion paragraph. And to do that one would need to read the entire article. This article has been sent to John Piper and other “big dogs”. This is his conclusion.

May I now ask every reader: Did you begin reading this paper as a Calvinist? If so, do you still believe in the doctrines of Calvinism? If you do, then you must be able to refute every bit of logic and Scripture I've used in this paper by showing that what I've written contradicts Scripture and/or logic. I am still waiting for the very first refutation from a Calvinist. If you remain a Calvinist and are not able to refute what I've written, then you remain a Calvinist from some motivation other than obedience to Christ and His Word. Is it because of pride that you are unable to admit that you have been wrong? Or is it because of fear of what other Calvinists might think if you defect from their doctrinal system? If either is true, then I must ask an even a more searching question: Is Jesus your Lord?

He adds

I hope that my comments are not taken to be against Calvinists, but against the doctrines of Calvinism, because I love and respect any Calvinist whose Lord is Jesus. I have enjoyed other writings by John Piper as well as other Calvinists, and I often serve in ministry along side of Calvinistic Christians who are devoted servants of Christ. I have, however, written rather passionately on some points, because I am passionate for God’s glory. If those passionate points seem harsh, please forgive me.

Peace be with you

TJ

Hi everyone.

Dear tjservant and others, I wonder if we as a people have made more of this issue than God would have intended for us. Is this something that He has even intended for us to understand? And then, the sort of questions that are asked, and the tone, and the sort of aspersions that are cast upon others and even God?

Take for instance the portion of this article which our brother Christian had posted. Suppose the things there were true, and I am not saying they are. Who are we to make moral judgements of God? Of what He should or should not do? Are we, who are blasphemers, adulterers, idolators, murderers, fornicators, proud, diobedient to parents, covenant breakers, unthankfull, rewarders of evil for good, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God...

Are we in any postion to call our tribunal against Him and demand He answer our accusations?

I ask this from the point of view of one who has deeply struggled with these issues myself. Yet, in all my struggling, this seems to be the reply of God to me...who are you?

Well? Who are we?

[i] And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.[/i]

And isn't this really the extent to which even the Apostle Paul was willing to go, to ask...

[i] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/i]

Is there really anything more beyond this that we could add?

It seems that we are confronted with two stark and opposite relaities in our existence. They being

God is good.

We are not.

Everything else should perhaps just get swallowed up inbetween.

Peace and grace be with all of you in Christ.

“Here is my question to the Calvinist: Why must we preach the gospel in order for people to be saved? If man plays no part at all in his conversion, why must he hear the gospel to be saved, as Paul says he must in Romans 10:14? A consistently logical Calvinist could never say that persuasive preaching influences the unregenerate person to yield to God, because the unregenerate person will always use his freedom to resist God (Piper, p. 9, prgh. 6). Thus the only way an unregenerate person becomes regenerate is if God sovereignly bestows upon him His irresistible grace. So all the persuasive preaching in the world won’t make a bit of difference in the saving of anyone. In fact, to even attempt to persuade someone is an attack on God’s supposed sovereign grace in salvation, because to do so implies that salvation rests, in part, on the hearer and also rests, in part, on the preacher.” David Servant

First Point: A Christian must preach the gospel because it was ordained by God to be the way that men were going to be saved.. My friend, a man is commanded to preach, and if God decides that men should be saved by preaching, then so be it. What right do we have to question the wisdom of God? Remember the gospel is POWER.. God’s POWER.. “For it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE.” 1 corth. 1.21

Sorry this is so long, but the article was long also.

Total Depravity: Psalms 14:2-3 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:10-13 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Even Law does not good: Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Irresistible Grace: Romans 3:21-31 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Article comes down to, who's faith is it that brings justification through faith. If we look carefully at faith of Jesus Christ we will see that it is not our faith that we believe by but His. Romans 3:27-30 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Who is the Justifier? By who's faith?
Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

"By faith" is a works faith by keeping the Law.
"Through Faith is a heavenly faith by the Faith of God to justify the circumcision and uncircumcision. For we are all saved by the Faith of Jesus Christ after Pentecost by the special conviction of the Holy Spirit to believe that Jesus Is the Son of God. Which is revealed to every man by the Father through the Holy Spirits gift of saving faith.

Galatians 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

What makes us righteous before God? "The faith of Jesus Christ". What makes us a non-sinner? "It is Christ in you the Hope of Glory".
Not that we don't sin but that God now see's us as non-sinners by His Son that is Born again in us.

Finally if you don't see the Christ in us is the only Faith, Wisdom, Righteousness, Sanctification, and Redemption, pleasing to God, we will never be able to answer this question, Is God in Control or is man in Control?

Tulip or Calvinism or Arminianism mean nothing, only the Word of God. Search the Scripture and See the Salvation of God, that is nothing but Christ in you the Hope of Glory and it is God who has done it, not by anything man has done or will do.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

We by our faith is it takes faith for salvation is a law we cannot keep. If Faith is By Jesus Christ it is not a law but a God ordained Law of Faith in, by, and of Jesus Christ. He Kept It and our salvation is by His fulfillment of all that The Father Gave Him to Finish. "It is Finished.

The Article conflicts itself and also scripture. Good Article by a knowledgeable Christian, but prejudiced on apologetics on super Calvinism or any other man created doctrine.

Calvin was right, only proofed by the Word of God, in the T and the I of Tulip. God is the author and finisher of our Faith. Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Also you cannot repent unless it is granted by God. Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. We can all seek repentance, but unless it is given and granted by God after Regeneration, repentance is nothing.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Not a Calvinist or Arminian, but a Christ Life, Spirit fill and taught, son of God. Who is the Great Preacher but the Christ that is Born Again in you.

In Christ: Phillip

amen brother, well put and well thought out,
love andy

Armenian, Armenianism

:-D

Just kind of word semantics Cal/Arm, I love em both, so does Jesus. It is Him we need more of, In Him, by Him, through Him, with Him and all that entails a new Person in the Believer, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" growing up into a new creature in Christ Jesus.

In Him: Phillip

No, I was just saying that it's Arminian, not Armenian. One is a teaching, the other is a people.

“Here is my question to the Calvinist: Why must we preach the gospel in order for people to be saved? If man plays no part at all in his conversion, why must he hear the gospel to be saved

He uses the gospel to bring forth salvation to show the His power in conversion. Preaching is the way God has chosen to save people. He elects the peoples unto hearing the gospel and salvation.

1 Cor 1

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the [color=0000ff]power of God. [/color]

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus,[color=0000ff] who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”[/color]

1 Cor 2

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because [color=0000ff]they are spiritually discerned.[/color]

1 Cor 3

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, [color=0000ff]but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.[/color]

GraceAlone thank you for that truth. I pray that our brothers and sisters would understand that Calvinists do not neglect the preaching of the Word. It is crucial because that is the way God ordained things.

tjservant, I have read the first 5 pages of that article so far and it appears that the author constructs a straw man (Calvinist who doesn't believe in preaching the Word) and then begins to document why preaching is important.

Calvinists believe in preaching the Word of God. Calvinists believe in taking the gospel to all the world. We believe this because it is biblical and Christ commands it.

It is God who saves. It is not me, it is not my preaching, it is not anything anyone does.

Suppose a preacher presents the gospel to a group of 20 lost people. Let's say that 5 respond and becomes Christians while 15 do not.

Why did the 5 believe?
Why did the 15 not believe?

Was the presentation not persuasive enough for the 15? Were the 5 just smarter? Who can honestly answer these questions?

The answer is that the 5 had a desire to become Christians. Where did that desire come from? It came from God.

Also, it is important to note that God does not violate a person's free will. God regenerates the person and then their free will brings them to Christ.

Ormly wrote:
Does getting saved make me a robot?

No. It makes you a slave. You either have one master or another. God or sin/satan/money(these all tie together). The book of Romans and throughout many of Paul's writings show that you have One master, either God or sin/satan/money. (Jesus said money, but Paul spoke of it as well)

If I could put something out there for everyone. Calvin was the main reason why Protestants are still around. Luther was first then Calvin made it strong. So. Just because the article says, 'Many people were Arminians before' and 'Accept Calvinism later'. Doesnt really say anything.

That's just like saying, 'Someone runs away from God all their life and with much grumbling accept it and rest in Him.'

So, I dont think his 'logical' case in that is correct.

But. Even though I lean strongly towards the 'Calvinistic' doctrine. Here are some reasons I won't claim myself as a Calvinist:

1. Calvin killed someone. A 'heritical' person was, I think, burned at the stake because they denied the trinity (I think, my history might be not completely accurate).

2. Calvinists have a tendcy to be NON-Christ-like with the FORCING of their doctrine. Christ was gentle in His teaching. He never 'force' fed anyone. When was the last time you saw a shepard 'force feed' any sheep?

3. Calvinists seem to neglect sin and man's responsiblity. (This is a general statement and not a 'absolute' one)

So. I love all in His Body and care to build one another up in love. (Hint, my s/n)

Sorry I meant Jacobus Arminius, Armenianism or Arminianism, I guess they spell it both ways, at least on the web.

Just my fingers getting ahead of my brain, which is not hard to do.

In Christ: Phillip

The London Baptist Confession of Faith has a section devoted to Free Will:

Chapter 9: Of Free Will
1._____ God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.
( Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19 )

2._____ Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.
( Ecclesiastes 7:29; Genesis 3:6 )

3._____ Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )

4._____ When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he doth not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.
( Colossians 1:13; John 8:36; Philippians 2:13; Romans 7:15, 18, 19, 21, 23 )

5._____ This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only.
( Ephesians 4:13 )

We need to once again have a discussion on Free Will. I am thinking of creating another thread cause I don't necessarily want to move this thread in that area, but we might have do.

Do Calvinist's believe that man has a Free Will?
Yes. We do.

But isn't that a contradiction!? How can you say that God chooses a person and then say that person has a Free Will choice to make?

I will give the short version:

An unbeliever is spiritually dead. He is lost and he is under the wrath of God. This is his orginal condition because of the Fall of Adam.

God in His good pleasure chooses to bestow grace upon whom he wishes. This grace of God acts to regenerate a person's heart and mind. By regenerating the heart and mind, the person's understanding of God changes (mind) and the person's desires change (heart) so that this person now desires God. The person then of their own Free Will choose God.

I will use an example that I hope shows my point:
- If I hear that someone has run over my dog intentionally, I will be upset at that person. If that person wants to be my friend, I will hesitate because of my disposition towards them.

But, if that person clearly explains that it was not intentional and they tried to help the dog by taking it to the vet then my understanding changes and now I have a different disposition towards them.

My Free Will was never violated even though I am now acting differently than I did before. What changed? My understanding of the situation.

This is what God does. He does not force me to love Him. I love Him because He first loved me. I do not serve Him grudgingly, I serve Him because He is worthy of worship and praise. I do nothing against my Free Will.

JaySaved wrote:
God in His good pleasure chooses to bestow grace upon whom he wishes. This grace of God acts to regenerate a person's heart and mind. By regenerating the heart and mind, the person's understanding of God changes (mind) and the person's desires change (heart) so that this person now desires God. The person then of their own Free Will choose God.

I always thought the Irresistible Grace was...dare I say it... [b]irresistable[/b]. I never realised that Calvin had a "free will response" clause tacked onto the whole deal.

Call me naive and all;-).

Romans 9:11-24 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

What can man say that makes Calvin or Arminius correct in their deliberation of what God is?
I don't understand why the great argument of Who is in Control of man's will. Why in the world would man want free will? Unless self is in the wanting of free will, what does it matter, Self is the Whole Problem. God is welcome to my life and all that I am, because I can do nothing without the Christ He has put in me. If God Himself has to put all that He is in me to make me pleasing to Himself, so be it.

There is only one reason for this argument, Self is in the way.

Romans 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Praise God for His Mercy and Love, I did not even like the person I used to be. I still don't like some of the person I still am, but God in His perfect timing and Potter Ability is changing me from glory to glory. All I can do is praise Him and thank Him with every breath, that He Gave His Son that I might become a son.

In Christ: Phillip

If God has already decreed who will be saved then there is no free will... period.

Free Will is both Free and in Bondage. What do I mean by saying that? Am I not contradicting myself? No. Allow me to explain.

Free Will is Free externally. A person's will is free because it is not controlled by outside influences. People have wills that are Free. This is universal and this is the aspect of Free Will that non-Calvinists only speak of in these discussions.

Free Will is Free externally but is also in Bondage internally. Free Will is in bondage because it is a slave to a person's desires and understanding. Free Will is in bondage internally because no one chooses anything against their desires and understanding.

Example: A lost person is a slave to sin and an enemy of God. They make Free Will choices based on those desires and their understanding of God. They do not know God and this lack of understanding keeps them from God. They are spiritually dead and an object of wrath.

Objection: What about a person who is walking on the street and is robbed at gunpoint. Is this not a violation of Free Will because the person does not desire to lose his wallet and an external force is making him do something against his will? No, this is not a violation of Free Will. Notice that two choices were presented to the person: Die or give up your wallet. The person made a choice to give up his wallet rather than die. He was presented options and he made a choice based on his desires and understanding.

So, I said all that to say this:
It is God who changes our desires and understanding of who He really is. He does not change our Will but instead changes what it is bound to. This is why people 'choose' Christ. They now desire Christ and have a greater understanding of who he is. They see him differently and gladly run to Him. It is God doing this, through Grace.

It is faulty logic to assume that since God chooses, free will cannot exist.

I always thought the Irresistible Grace was...dare I say it... irresistable. I never realised that Calvin had a "free will response" clause tacked onto the whole deal.

Is the saving grace of God Irresistible? Let me ask you this same question:
'Could you (not anyone else but you) honestly have rejected the salvation you were given?'

I have yet to speak to a Christian who said the following: 'Well, it was a toss-up between God and my selfishness and I just figured what the heck. I might as well give this Jesus thing a try.'

Now, I have heard false believers say something like that, but they never lasted very long before they fell away. But, I have never heard a Christians speak of his Lord and Savior in that manner.

I remember vividly that moment when I understood the sacrifice Jesus made for me. I had heard about Jesus my entire life, but when I was 19 He became REAL to me. How did this happen? Did I choose to give it a try? No, I was compelled to the cross and I could do no other!

I have read the article and was so impressed I have put it into a booklet form to pass out to others. Calvin introduced great error into the body of Christ. His teachings on eternal security do not line up with the true teachings of the Scriptures. I will not take time here to refute them; the article you posted does so in an excellent manner. God Bless.

JaySaved wrote:
Is the saving grace of God Irresistible? Let me ask you this same question:
'Could you (not anyone else but you) honestly have rejected the salvation you were given?'

Jay, my reference was to the "I" in "TULIP", which stands for "Irresistible Grace". To say one is "Calvinist" and agree with "TULIP" then it would be wrong to redefine "Irresistible Grace" to mean that it can be rejected when offered. I have seen many who have acknowledged their sin, and agreed that Christ's offer of salvation by grace alone makes sense, and yet have decided to try to find their own way to appease God, due to their heart being proud.

What you described is basically what I believe, that being that God orders events such that everybody shall have opportunity to accept or reject His grace, and once it is rejected, finally (the time or quantity of offers no one can be assured that they know) carelessness and hardness set in, and sin becomes and irrelevant issue.

It's a case of God initiating and us responding. It isn't, us initiating, as some Arminians would claim, and it requires our response, which some Calvinists ignore, but it is a covenant between God and man, initiated by God.

My understanding of what is commonly described as Calvinism is that their is no choice involved in our salvation, and therefore grace cannot be resisted (ie, it is irresistible).

The other thing to consider, for those who are "purists" is that Calvin did not invent TULIP, but those who followed his theology coined the term in response to Arminus' arguments against some of the statements in Calvin's "Institutes of Religion". Some have said that Luther was "more Calvinist than Calvin", and having read part of his "Commentary of the Book of Galatians", I'd have to say that I'd agree.

I say all this, because really, the whole argument is quite silly. How about we just follow what the word of God has to say, and it says, "Let God be true and every man a liar." Last time I checked, both Calvin and Arminus where men. Well, then I guess, according to that quote, they were both liars.

And you know what? So am I.

How about you?

It is important to note the following:

Man does make a decision to follow Christ in that he decides 'Yes, I will follow.", but he cannot make that decision apart from regenerating work of God--His Sovereign Grace.

So, please don't think I am saying that man does not choose Christ. He does, but only because of the inward work God has done in him.

JaySaved wrote:
So, please don't think I am saying that man does not choose Christ. He does, but only because of the inward work God has done in him.

My point here is not to contend with what you believe JaySaved, but merely to raise issue with you statement that Calvinists believe in free will. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't, but what you described to substantiate your claim was not "Irresistable Grace" ("I" in "TULIP"), and so therefore not the Calvinism that is being discussed here.

As I stated earlier, what you stated lines up nicely with what I personally believe, but not what I understand Calvinism to be about. That's all.

Jay, my reference was to the "I" in "TULIP", which stands for "Irresistible Grace". To say one is "Calvinist" and agree with "TULIP" then it would be wrong to redefine "Irresistible Grace" to mean that it can be rejected when offered.

Let me go back to this statement. I am not trying to redefine 'Irresistible Grace' to mean that it can be rejected when offered. Irresistible is what it is...Irresistible. But what exactly does this mean?

Does it mean that God drags people into salvation while they are kicking and screaming? No.
Does it mean that someone becomes a Christian when they didn't want to? No.
Does it mean that someone is a Christian yet wishes they were not? No.

This is the key question:
Does it mean that a person becomes a Christian against their Will?

If a spiritually dead person--who does not desire God--receives grace that he or she cannot resist, then that grace is received against that person's will. But this objection is not being raised because by definition all grace--even prevenient grace--is received against a person's will. If all grace is received against a person's will (i.e., a person does not choose to receive it) then this becomes a moot point. The objection comes in with the definition of Irresistible Grace--saving grace that cannot be rejected. It must be noted however that irresistible Grace is grace that is not only irresistible, but regenerating!

The key to understanding this is that the saving grace of God regenerates the spritually dead person so that they see God as He truly is. The regenerated are able to comprehend the amazing sacrifice of Christ and they come running to Him for salvation. A person never becomes a Christian against their will. They always will to come to Christ because they see Him as he truly is and they cannot help but follow Him. This is what Irresistible Grace accomplishes, it quickens the dead!