I have heard so many diffrent things and even at one period ive believed diffrent things in my walk. Ive only been a christian for two years but now lately I sensed so much more to the Baptism than what the average church preachers. I think its completely misused. Isnt it a process of cleaning out and empowering its not a thing that happens once and for the rest of your life your empowered. The apostle went through so much before Acts infilling it was a lenghty process. Why do we today preach come up now and just receive it and you will be filled. And does one have to pray in toungue to be filled with Holy Ghost. can you be filled with Holy Ghost without first being baptized with the Baptism Christ was baptized with Matt 20:20,23. I would like to hear what some of your thoughts are. Im going to study more on my own but I would like some others insights.
What is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost?
[b]Matthew 3:11[b]He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire,
baptizō = to overwhelm; from baptō = cover wholly with a fluid.
Fire is all consuming and will continue to burn untill there is no more; Prov 30:16b...the fire, ...never said, Enough!
The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is to be overwhelmed with God untill there is nothing left of what is sympathetic with the world, flesh and the devil.
Malachi 3:3, Matthew 3:12.
Therfore, you are axactly correct, it a process of cleaning out and empowering. It is not a thing that happens once but it is a process untill we see HIM face to face.
By the way, I've never prayed in another tongue but I am still in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is to be overwhelmed with God untill there is nothing left of what is sympathetic with the world, flesh and the devil.
I like this statement! I find it very close to what I believe is baptism of the Holy Spirit. Thank You!
Dear Branded4him,
I know that the below scripture means be being filled, it is an ongoing process. One person on on another forum said we need to seek to be continually filled because we leak. I thought that was pretty cute. Here is the scripture:
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Below I have given my personal testimony which I shared on another thread. I did speak in tongues without working it up when I was filled. Anyway here is my testimony......
Re: Baptism of the Holy Spirit
I am sharing my testimony on the baptism of the Holy Spirit for you below. I do believe that the 120 in the upper room already believed in Jesus, therefore were saved but the waited for the promise of the Holy Spirit. In this scripture it says:
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
and:
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
It says in v.38 ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit and in v. 39 it says this promise is for as many as the Lord our God shall call. That has to be all that are called
I also would encourage you to study the lives of the people who have recieved this touch. Duncan Campbell, Frank Bartleman, Rees Howells, Andrew Murray, Smith Wigglesworth, John G. Lake, and many, many more. All point to a point where the regular Christian walk became supernatural because of an encounter with the Holy Spirit.
The testimony of the love given before mine is my testimony as well. It was not worked up it was like rivers of loving water flowing without effort. A scuzzy life became clean. I know that for me it was a distinct event. I believe that I did receive the Holy Spirit when I first asked but I received the fulness when I yielded my life fully.
My testimony:
I am sharing this in the hopes that it might set someone else at liberty.
I was saved in 1976 and powerfully baptised in the Holy Spirit while asleep. I know some may see this process differently than I do, but I was totally unschooled in religious matters. Not raised in church, no instruction of any kind. My husband and I had been into the drug party scene and when one of our fellow partyers got thrown in jail for selling cocaine my life took a real turn. He began to write me letters about the Jesus he had recommitted his life to in jail. He was in jail for 2 years and wrote me huge, long letters witnessing to me about my lost state and need of Jesus. The amazing thing about my friend is he was a backslidden preachers kid and now he is a preacher himself. It took jail to wake him up. God doesn't waste anything!
Finally I submitted my life to Jesus and went to church for the first time since I was 8 years old when the Baptist bus picked me up for a few weeks. My husband and I went forward for salvation and were prayed for and we were asked if we wanted to receive the Holy Spirit, having no idea what that really was, we said yes, I suppose just because they said we needed it. They prayed over us and encouraged us to open our mouths and let the Lord fill it with a new language and it went on and on. I suppose out of embarassment we garbled a few sounds and they said we had recieved it. We both knew we really hadn't recieved anything. However, I continued to ask God if this was for real and something He wanted me to have to please fill me. Three nights later I was sound asleep and I sat bolt upright in the bed with my arms our cross fashion and what felt like electricity was charging through my body and I was speaking in a unknown language.
I know some might not agree with this and say all kinds of things about this experience, but I have to say that my life was radically changed from that moment on. I had what I can only describe as a big lump on love in my heart. It burned there for months. It oozed out to anyone I came in contact with and most of the people I was in contact with got saved. It truly was the power to witness.
My husband did not go on seeking for the fullness of the Spirit and after a year he backslid, but many years later I am still walking with the Lord. I attribute that to recieving the Holy Spirit. I can look back to that one event as monumental and so real that there is no question in my mind that He is real.
It has undergirded me.
I have read numerous books about the baptism of the HS and seen many different testimonies. I believe God meets us where we are. This was what I needed to have and God gave it to me. Someone else may recieve differently. All I know is my experience revolutionized my life and I became a loving mother and wife. I learned it isn't all about me, but in losing my life I find it. The more I give the more I recieve. That is a far cry from the self-centered brat I was before. Truly all things became new. I don't even recognise the person I was before 1976. She is a dead woman and I'm glad she is.
I thank God for my salvation for a young man converted in jail and for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
What is the purpose of the Holy Spirit?
This is the soul purpose of the Holy Spirit in power of bringing Christ Jesus into the believers mind and renew it to the Mind of Christ.
John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
When will He be in you and why?
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Why did the Holy Spirit come. John 14:18-20 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Jesus Himself will come to live in us, that is The Spirit of Christ dwell in you", and the Holy Spirit will be the teacher of the things Jesus wanted to say to us and could not because we could not understand. This is the mystery Paul speaks about many times and it takes the teaching of the Holy Spirit to make it real to our minds, which we now have, "you have the Mind of Christ and how are we to know this Mind of Christ, by renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ by the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
When did the Comforter come to those that believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?
John 16:7-8 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
It must be after Jesus is departed in His Assention.
50 days after that, the Holy Spirit came as Prayed for and Promised by Jesus Christ.
Acts 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
The purpose of the Holy Spirit already explained by Jesus, Now because they believe they are born again and are not baptized into the Holy Spirit by Him that has sent Him. That purpose to explain who Jesus Christ is and who He is and where He is because you believe. "The Mystery"
Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Speaking in all languages that were there declaring that Jesus Christ is the Son of God whom they crucified and giving witness to the Holy Spirit baptism of Believers into Christ and Christ baptism of the Holy Spirit promised.
In Christ: Phillip
Read John 14,15,16,17, and Acts 2
Ive only been a christian for two years but now lately I sensed so much more to the Baptism than what the average church preachers.
One of the dilemas is that 'preachers' generally go down an either/or route so the old Holiness preachers used to concentrate on power to live a holy life, while the Pentecostal preachers tended to concentrate on power to witness.
Sometimes it can help to be a bit pedantic right at the beginning. This is not to criticise your question but just to make an important point. The Bible never uses the phrase 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit'. That phrase would imply that this 'Baptism in the Spirit's baptism' whereas the scripture constantly affirms that this is 'Christ's Baptism'. The biblical phrase is "Baptism in/by the Holy Spirit". This emphasises just what Christ baptises us into... the Spirit.
If you have the time to start from the bottom you might try [url=http://www.mybiblebase.com/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=4]The Old Testament's hidden baptisms.
Quote:
That phrase would imply that this 'Baptism in the Spirit's baptism' whereas the scripture constantly affirms that this is 'Christ's Baptism'. The biblical phrase is "Baptism in/by the Holy Spirit". This emphasises just what Christ baptises us into... the Spirit.
[color=6600CC]While the phrase baptism of the Holy Spirit may not be in the bible the below scripture says that Jesus baptises with the Holy Ghost. I see this meaning the same thing.[/color]
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luke 3:16 John answered , saying unto them all , I indeed baptize you with water ; but one mightier than I cometh , the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose : he shall baptize you with (en) the Holy Ghost and with fire :
en en en
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:--about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (... sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.
To stay with the rest of scripture this word "ev"
That is "in" would be a better and more comparable rendering.
Christ is the One doing the Baptism into the Holy Spirit.
In Christ: Phillip
There is, however, a "growing in grace" that the baptism of the Spirit begins.
[b]2Corinth 3:18[b]glory to glory
This is telling us the process of sanctification, for as the "glory to glory" referes to this Mirror or Glass that reflect His Glory and Image, so are we to reflect His Glory and Image as we grow from one degree to another in sanctification as the Psalms sais, [b]Psalm 84:7
The term "as from the Lord Spirit." Tells us that this is the work of the Holy Spirit.
The purification(baptism, sanctification, ect.) of fire we pass through is this:[b]Zec 13:9[b]1Corinth 3:13,15[b]15:[b]1Peter 1:7
My question is then, does the Holy Spirity bring this as I preseanted, or is this only the trials(fire) that all men go through; but christians surviveing because of the Holy Spirit is in them?
Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee [peter], that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Branded4Him
I would like to offer some advice on this subject.
FORSAKE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK!!
Because your going to get bombarded with so many ideas that it's only going to gender confusion.
The baptism into the holy Spirit is very real, whatever the bible tells you regarding the subject, SEEK IT. That is, everyday ask the LORD for this baptism, continually asking Him. He wants to give it, by your SEEKING He is preparing your vessel to receive it, so don't be discouraged.
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
And if you go to a church that doesn't believe in it, don't tell them, they'll run you down, they'd rather you fall into sin then to fall head over heels in love with Jesus Christ. Get your mind off of tongues or any other manifestation that comes to mind. These thing will come, but it's not important that you know them or to mediate on them. Mediate on the LORD Jesus Christ for He is the baptizer.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Logic wrote: "There is, however, a "growing in grace" that the baptism of the Spirit begins."
We have the whole bucked of Grace or our salvation would be partial and not sure. Our Salvation is Sure by the Christ that is in us and Grace is Sure and we must renew our minds to the Mind of Christ, thus growing in mind not Grace. Grace is full and From God, not measure by what man does.
2Corinth 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 13:9-13 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
He is come; 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Now we know; 1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Is He come In your flesh, the temple? 2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The Great Mystery of Paul; "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".
Who then is our sanctification, by which we are judged in justification by who?
1Corinth 3:13,15 the work of each will be revealed; for the Day will make it known, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire will prove the work of each, what sort it is.
15: If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.
With Christ in the Fire we will not be burned. A perfect picture of Christ in the believer is;
Daniel 3:25-27 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
How can the Christ in you be burned? Not Possible. Sanctified by Him that is in you. Not with you. We are one in Christ and we will see Him as He is on resurrection morning for we will be like Him. Sanctified son's of God, by the Son in us.
This is what the Holy Spirit came to teach us.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
These are the mystery revealed to Paul and taught to us by the Holy Spirit; John 16:8-11 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
But He will come in the new birthing of His Seed in the believer by the Father of us all. John 14:18-19 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
If we live in the Old, the New can never come.
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him (God the Father) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
In The Holy Spirit Teacher Parakletos: Phillip
JESUS CHRIST, THE BAPTIZER
“THERE WAS A MAN SENT FROM GOD, whose name was John. .. . The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.... And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
“And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
“And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God” (John 1:6, 29, 32—34).
Every one of the four Gospels spells out John’s declaration, “I indeed baptize you with water; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” When the Pharisees asked, “Why baptizeth thou?” he replied, “That he should be made manifest.. . therefore I am come baptizing with water” (John 1: 25, 31). Furthermore, John assured them that he was sent to baptize with water (vs. 33). It was his ministry. This fact was recognized to such an extent that he became known as “John the Baptist.”
I doubt whether one could find a ten-year-old in Christendom that has not yet learned about John the Baptist. All through the ages, generation after generation, men have learned of this great prophet, but they know him by what he did and not by what he said or prophesied. Yet we know that he was both prophet and baptizer.
In recent times I have been astonished to find that very few Christians have ever heard that Christ is the baptizer in the Holy Ghost. They know Him as the Lamb of God, as Saviour; and as the Son of God, our Lord; but they are unfamiliar with the fact that He was announced to the world as the One to whom God gave the ministry of baptizing with the Holy Ghost.
Jesus Christ is both Saviour and Baptizer. We have no doubt that He is as much the Saviour today as when He died on Calvary as the Lamb of God. Even so, He is still the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit as much as He was when He commenced this ministry on the Day of Pentecost, for He is the “same, yesterday, today and forever.”
I have just traveled in seven countries and addressed over 300 ministers belonging to seven of the major classical Protestant churches. During these three months I have read a great variety of ecclesiastical writings, touching upon almost every subject and event between Easter and Pentecost. From Ascension to Pentecost. I have listened to many radio talks in several languages. Not once did I hear a minister, see in a paper, or hear over the radio any mention that Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit. In conversations many that questioned me or spoke to me expressed some surprise at my strong emphasis upon the message that Christ is the Baptizer in the Spirit. I have heard much about the work of the Spirit, about receiving the Spirit, and even about the coming of the Spirit, but nothing is ever said about being baptized with the Spirit.
The first intimation in history that a baptism with the Spirit was a possible event in the life of a human being came from John the Baptist. However, he did not announce the experience but rather the one who gave such an experience. He announced that the Baptizer was coming. He clearly states that God had told him that Christ would be the Baptizer with the Holy Ghost. He also assures us that the image for this act of Christ was his own act of baptizing in the river. From the very beginning, therefore, all John’s converts fully expected an experience that would be as overwhelming as their baptism in the river. These converts had an encounter with the baptizer and not with water or even the river. What they were to expect was an encounter with the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and not with the Spirit or with the work of the Spirit in their lives.
For every baptism there must be an agent to baptize, and an element with or into which to baptize, and finally a candidate to be baptized. Such a candidate must present himself and ask for baptism. Then there must be a total and complete surrender to the baptizer and not to the element in which he baptizes. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is an encounter with Christ, the Baptizer. The candidates are those who have already had an encounter with Him as the Lamb of God, the Saviour, who took away all their sin and made them worthy temples of the Holy Spirit.
The disciples who left John and followed Christ that He might baptize them with the Holy Spirit discovered that He was full of the Spirit. They saw His miracles to prove it and heard His word to confirm it. Then He gave them power and authority to cast out devils and heal the sick, but that was not the baptism in the Spirit that they expected. Finally they saw Him weak and as a Lamb led to the slaughter, and He opened not His mouth. He died on the cross and was laid in the tomb, and no one had been baptized in the Spirit. What about John’s prophecy? Was it all mythical or mystical?
In the evening of that first Easter day of Resurrection, He suddenly and unexpectedly appeared in their midst. Then He breathed on them and said, ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” This was after He had explained, “As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.” But how did His Father send Him? First He came, born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35), and then He was endued with the Spirit (Luke 4: 1) to commence His earthly ministry. So here the disciples became the very first members of a new body, the church. He breathed eternal life into them. Calvary, the all-effective altar of God, had dealt with the sin question, and those who were dead in trespasses and sin now could receive the life-giving, regenerating Holy Spirit. This was for them the occasion where they were baptized into one body by the Spirit (I Cor.12:13).
But John said that God had said that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit, not that He would give the Spirit. I wonder how these disciples thought and felt about all these strange things? However, a few weeks later Jesus again spoke to the same men to whom He had said, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” Now He confirms John’s message. He says to them, “John truly baptized with water: but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence” (Acts 1: 5). Here Christ accepts and confirms the same image that God had given to John, a baptism in water and a baptism in the Holy Spirit—indeed a river baptism, but the river of life must first begin to flow upon earth.
Several predictions were confirmed on the Day of Pentecost. The Father gave the promised Holy Ghost, who was heard as wind and seen as fire. Jesus began to baptize in the Spirit and fire. The immediate consequence of this baptism was that the candidates began to speak with other tongues as Jesus had promised (Mark 16: 17). Then the Holy Spirit began to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment as Peter preached to the multitude (John 16:8). But the record says, “They were all filled {overflowed] with the Holy Ghost, and [of which was] they began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Acts2:4).
It seems that from this very day onward much more emphasis was given to the experience of the disciples than to the act of Jesus the Baptizer, and the whole controversy began to revolve around glossolalia—speaking with other tongues—which was the very simple consequence of this baptism in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was the gift and tongues was the consequence. These tongues were a manifestation of the Holy Spirit and not a manifestation of the ecstasy of the human spirit. Speaking in tongues by the Holy Spirit or, as Paul puts it, “Praying with the Spirit,” is an act of the Holy Spirit upon the human spirit which transcends the understanding (I Cor.14: 14, 15).
Thus it seems clear that on the day of Pentecost the spirit of the disciples was baptized into the Holy Spirit and their bodies were filled with the Holy Spirit—overflowed with the Holy Spirit. The fact that they commenced to speak “with the Spirit” was proof of this overflowing.
In our day many pray for an infilling, an experience, instead of seeking the Baptizer. They ask the Holy Spirit to fill them when they should be asking Christ to baptize them. The baptism will produce the filling. This filling of the body by the baptism of the human spirit into the Holy Spirit produces an overflowing (see John 7:38) which causes the vocal organs to go into action and speak a language that is unknown to the candidate. He may be fully aware of what he is doing but does not know what he is saying (I Cor.14:14).
On the day of Pentecost God gave the Holy Spirit and Christ then baptized His followers into the Spirit, and they began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:4). About 10 years later, according to Acts 10:44—46, when the Apostle Peter dared to preach to the Gentiles for the first time (Acts 11:19), these same Gentiles received exactly the same experience that the apostles and the disciples of Christ had on the day of Pentecost. The record says, “And they of the circumcision [Jews] were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God” (Acts 10:46). The Jewish Christians in Jerusalem objected to all this. (Acts 11:2). Then Peter in his defense said, “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 11: 15, 16). In other words, it was the same Baptizer who baptized into the same element, with the same consequences. The consequences were what convinced the Jewish Christians that the experience of the Gentiles was valid, for they heard them speak with tongues
(Acts
10:46).
From this record it is quite clear that during the first decade Peter and the church in Jerusalem believed that Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and that “speaking with tongues” was the immediate consequence or confirmation of this baptism. During this last decade in our time the Christian world has become more conscious of the Holy Spirit and many are reaching out for His power and a charismatic ministry. However, it seems to me that unless the church once again lifts up Christ as the Baptizer, many will seek the blessing from the Holy Spirit and fail to find it because He will always honor Christ.
To get the baptism in the Spirit everyone must seek an encounter with the Baptizer, who began this ministry on the day of Pentecost when He truly came back in the Spirit to baptize His disciples. He is the same, yesterday, today and forever (Heb.13:8).
David Duplessis .......[Mr. Pentecost]
Christinyou wrote:
Logic wrote: "There is, however, a "growing in grace" that the baptism of the Spirit begins."We have the whole bucked of Grace or our salvation would be partial and not sure. Our Salvation is Sure by the Christ that is in us and Grace is Sure and we must renew our minds to the Mind of Christ, thus growing in mind not Grace. Grace is full and From God, not measure by what man does.
Do you ever read in context? sheesh!
We don't grow in the grace of God, but in grace in general.
My point is this;
Are you perfect in character at the point of salvation?
No, you must grow in the graces of the christian standards.
You mentiond these verses:
2Corinth 3:18 & 1Corinth 13:12, To under stand these verses in [b]context
[b]2Corinth 3:18
This is telling us the process of sanctification, for as the "[color=990000]glory to glory[/color]" referes to this Mirror or Glass that reflect His Glory and Image, so are we to reflect His Glory and Image [u]as we grow from one degree to another in sanctification[b]Psalm 84:7
The term "as from the Lord Spirit." Tells us that this is the work of the Holy Spirit.
All this is a process untill the time of this verse:[b]1Corinth 13:12
This verse takes it's reference in Heaven, for the "[color=990000]but then[/color]" referes to the time when we se Him face to face not as throught a dim glass.
I guess, I could have said that "we grow in glory" instead of "grow in grace" just so you would wouldn't think me a more of a heritic as you do.
Logic is not a heretic. That is not for me to say or judge. I do believe that you believe that Abraham's salvation and the Christian's salvation is the same, to me that commingles Law and Grace and dilutes both. That does not make you a heretic, that only makes your understanding and my understanding different. My dear brother in Christ, is this a fair understanding of our differences?
I have one question: What is our only means of salvation since the Cross?
In Christ: Phillip
Compliments wrote:
I would like to offer some advice on this subject.FORSAKE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK!!
Because your going to get bombarded with so many ideas that it's only going to gender confusion
[b]Proverbs 15:22
[b]Proverbs 24:6
why be in a forum if one is to ''FORSAKE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK''
If so, one would be only to give his own oppinion and then duck out.
Threre would be no conversation or comunication for "iron to sharpen iron"
I am sure that Branded4Him is able to take all that is said & to rightly divide the word of truth as we all do.
Christinyou wrote:
Logic is not a heretic. That is not for me to say or judge. I do believe that you believe that Abraham's salvation and the Christian's salvation is the same, to me that commingles Law and Grace and dilutes both.
Abraham's faith was not from works of the law but works of faith which stems from Love.
Furthermore, it is through faith (even Abraham's faith) that we are saved.
Christinyou wrote:
What is our only means of salvation since the Cross?
It isn't only since the Cross, but since the foundation of the world.
Just as Enoch was taken up because he was pleasing to God in that he believed, he was saved from Gods wrath, .
We are also saved by believing that He is, because it is impossible to please God without believing(Hebrews 11:5-6).
In other words, by
Christinyou wrote:
Logic is not a heretic. That is not for me to say or judge. I do believe that you believe that Abraham's salvation and the Christian's salvation is the same, to me that commingles Law and Grace and dilutes both.
I should have wrote; "to me that commingles"- Israel and the law with Grace and The Church, the body of Christ.
There is no Israel in the Church, the body of Christ. In fact there is no Gentile in the Body of Christ. There is only Born Again Christ-ones. There is now only a heavenly Israel of God, not the Israel of this earth. The Heavenly Israel, That being what pleases Him to be brought to this earth and all brothers and sisters in Christ will be living in the Light thereof. The light is the Father and His Christ. There is no light in the Israel of this earth or the Gentile Nations unless they are in Christ and Christ is Born Again in them.
In Christ: Phillip
why be in a forum if one is to ''FORSAKE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK''
Because I know, and I also know by experince that there are those who would bring confusion regarding this blessing of the baptism of the holy Spirit. Confusion comes when you have one group saying that the baptism of the holy Spirit died out in the first century, you have other groups that say that we don't need it today, others say we do and the list goes on. Who needs this confusion? And why? There is no council in reasoning away the scripures, as many have done and continue to do so walking after their own lustful hearts.
Romans 8:7 Because the natural mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
When we use our NATURAL understanding in reasoning with the scriptures, cults, sects, and denominations are formed.
Again I plead, FORSAKE WHAT NATURAL MINDED MAN HAS TO SAY. Believe the Word and do it. If any man hath ears to hear let him hear what the Spirit is saying, and not listen to what the natural mind is saying.
There are three manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
1."with" you
2."In" you
3."upon" you
The Christian, intimate with the Father or proceeding in that direction will have knowledge, that says "Trust Me", for all three.
There will be evidence of at least two in the general life of a follower. The third one is for God to exercise at His pleasure/purpose.
Orm
While the phrase baptism of the Holy Spirit may not be in the bible the below scripture says that Jesus baptises with the Holy Ghost. I see this meaning the same thing.While the phrase baptism of the Holy Spirit may not be in the bible the below scripture says that Jesus baptises with the Holy Ghost. I see this meaning the same thing.
Many people do not see the difference but there is a grammatical difference between a genetive of possession and the medium into which something is baptised.
If I say this is the bible of Ron I do not mean that Ron is in the bible. They are fundamentally different concepts and important ones. The agent who baptises men and women is Jesus Christ. It is his prerogative and his baptism. The medium into which he baptises is the Holy Spirit. This is not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, this is the baptism of Jesus Christ.
Because your going to get bombarded with so many ideas that it's only going to gender confusion.The baptism into the holy Spirit is very real, whatever the bible tells you regarding the subject, SEEK IT. That is, everyday ask the LORD for this baptism, continually asking Him. He wants to give it, by your SEEKING He is preparing your vessel to receive it, so don't be discouraged.
Whatever you do, do NOT seek it! Seek Him!
It is a him. Baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. These three are one.
Quote:
There will be evidence of at least two in the general life of a follower. The third one is for God to exercise at His pleasure/purpose.
However the scripturs say that He will give it to those who ask:
[color=6600FF]Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?[/color]
Then where do you place this in your thinking:
Matthew 3:11 (KJV)
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you *with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Luke 3:16 (KJV)
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you *with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
NASB-U
*The Gr here can be translated in, with or by
Goldminer wrote:
Quote:There will be evidence of at least two in the general life of a follower. The third one is for God to exercise at His pleasure/purpose.
However the scripturs say that He will give it to those who ask:
[color=6600FF]Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?[/color]
Indeed.
James 1:5-6 (KJV)
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. [6] But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Luke 11:9 (Amplified Bible)
So I say to you, Ask and keep on asking and it shall be given you; seek and keep on seeking and you shall find; knock and keep on knocking and the door shall be opened to you.
But some will ask, "How come have to ask, I thought we got it all when we got saved?"
I see no separation between the Godhead:
Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
I won't pretend to understand the trinity this side of heaven, with no direct revelation from God about it. But I feel that as Jesus said I only do what the Father is doing it is because they are one. How to explain that? Way more skillfull people than I have tried and still it's a mystery. I think maybe God likes a mystery because if we could figure it all out we would be Him.
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
I don't think I need to understand exactly how I was baptised to know that I was. All I can say is thank you for the awesome gift of the Holy Spirit and thank you Holy Spirit for batising me. Whether to thank the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit matters little to me. I'll just thank all three because they aren't jealous of each other and won't be offended by my ignorance. They know my frame and that I'm made from dust. They know that I know in part and forgive my ignorance. I do study to show myself approved, in fact for over three decades I have been dilligently reading my word. I have even read it in every version I can, however I just can't get into the message bible.
Anyway I have rambled on enough. I sure don't have all the answers, but I do have "The Answer".
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
I don't live in fear of getting it wrong because He loves me enough to keep me on the right path.
Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This [is] the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
Psa 37:23 The steps of a [good] man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
The quickening of the Holy Spirit has caused a check in my heart when something is presented to me that is off. I am not saying that I am infallible, but He is. If my desire is to have all He wants to give and to learn all He wants me to learn then He will keep my feet from slipping.
Psa 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?
It seems that all this trying to figure it out to the minutest degree is wearying. When we can just rest in the love of God that delights to give us all things that pertain to life and godliness. We don't need to fear He will give us serpent. This is His heart for us:
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
I have heard it said of many foreign nations that have heard the gospel for the first time are seeing all the gifts of the spirit manifest. They read what the word says and believe it as little child would and they see the signs follow because they don't doubt they will follow. Their faith is childlike and Jesus praises this kind of faith.
A person could hash over this issue until they are blue in the face and everybody will view it differently, but the fact is if we become like little children we can partake of this wonderful gift.
I once had a conversation with my brother who was just put in prison for drugs. He was quoting scripture to me. He studied the scriptures all the time so he could get into debates about it. It was like a game to him.
I felt that God dropped something into my spirit to speak to him.
I told him he could study how to make bread, the ingredients, the process, he could know every kind of bread possible, even the smell, but if he didn't eat the bread he would still starve to death.
Knowing is not enough, we must be partakers. We must eat His flesh and drink His blood and receive His fullness or we will be lacking all He wants to give us. That is the real issue.
Dear Ormly,
The first part of the quote is not from me, this part:
There will be evidence of at least two in the general life of a follower. The third one is for God to exercise at His pleasure/purpose.
I can only answer you question by saying I receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit, or what ever name you choose to call it, after my my initial conversion. My thoughts on that is that God can only fill what is empty. At times we may not be fully yielded to recieve, maybe from lack of knowledge or holding back a portion. I don't really know the answer. I only know my experience was latter than my salvation day.
Permit me to once again post this paper. I believe it to be the clearest explanation of the Baptism I have ever read:
JESUS CHRIST, THE BAPTIZER
“THERE WAS A MAN SENT FROM GOD, whose name was John. .. . The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.... And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
“And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
“And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God” (John 1:6, 29, 32—34).
Every one of the four Gospels spells out John’s declaration, “I indeed baptize you with water; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” When the Pharisees asked, “Why baptizeth thou?” he replied, “That he should be made manifest.. . therefore I am come baptizing with water” (John 1: 25, 31). Furthermore, John assured them that he was sent to baptize with water (vs. 33). It was his ministry. This fact was recognized to such an extent that he became known as “John the Baptist.”
I doubt whether one could find a ten-year-old in Christendom that has not yet learned about John the Baptist. All through the ages, generation after generation, men have learned of this great prophet, but they know him by what he did and not by what he said or prophesied. Yet we know that he was both prophet and baptizer.
In recent times I have been astonished to find that very few Christians have ever heard that Christ is the baptizer in the Holy Ghost. They know Him as the Lamb of God, as Saviour; and as the Son of God, our Lord; but they are unfamiliar with the fact that He was announced to the world as the One to whom God gave the ministry of baptizing with the Holy Ghost.
Jesus Christ is both Saviour and Baptizer. We have no doubt that He is as much the Saviour today as when He died on Calvary as the Lamb of God. Even so, He is still the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit as much as He was when He commenced this ministry on the Day of Pentecost, for He is the “same, yesterday, today and forever.”
I have just traveled in seven countries and addressed over 300 ministers belonging to seven of the major classical Protestant churches. During these three months I have read a great variety of ecclesiastical writings, touching upon almost every subject and event between Easter and Pentecost. From Ascension to Pentecost. I have listened to many radio talks in several languages. Not once did I hear a minister, see in a paper, or hear over the radio any mention that Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit. In conversations many that questioned me or spoke to me expressed some surprise at my strong emphasis upon the message that Christ is the Baptizer in the Spirit. I have heard much about the work of the Spirit, about receiving the Spirit, and even about the coming of the Spirit, but nothing is ever said about being baptized with the Spirit.
The first intimation in history that a baptism with the Spirit was a possible event in the life of a human being came from John the Baptist. However, he did not announce the experience but rather the one who gave such an experience. He announced that the Baptizer was coming. He clearly states that God had told him that Christ would be the Baptizer with the Holy Ghost. He also assures us that the image for this act of Christ was his own act of baptizing in the river. From the very beginning, therefore, all John’s converts fully expected an experience that would be as overwhelming as their baptism in the river. These converts had an encounter with the baptizer and not with water or even the river. What they were to expect was an encounter with the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and not with the Spirit or with the work of the Spirit in their lives.
For every baptism there must be an agent to baptize, and an element with or into which to baptize, and finally a candidate to be baptized. Such a candidate must present himself and ask for baptism. Then there must be a total and complete surrender to the baptizer and not to the element in which he baptizes. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is an encounter with Christ, the Baptizer. The candidates are those who have already had an encounter with Him as the Lamb of God, the Saviour, who took away all their sin and made them worthy temples of the Holy Spirit.
The disciples who left John and followed Christ that He might baptize them with the Holy Spirit discovered that He was full of the Spirit. They saw His miracles to prove it and heard His word to confirm it. Then He gave them power and authority to cast out devils and heal the sick, but that was not the baptism in the Spirit that they expected. Finally they saw Him weak and as a Lamb led to the slaughter, and He opened not His mouth. He died on the cross and was laid in the tomb, and no one had been baptized in the Spirit. What about John’s prophecy? Was it all mythical or mystical?
In the evening of that first Easter day of Resurrection, He suddenly and unexpectedly appeared in their midst. Then He breathed on them and said, ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” This was after He had explained, “As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.” But how did His Father send Him? First He came, born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35), and then He was endued with the Spirit (Luke 4: 1) to commence His earthly ministry. So here the disciples became the very first members of a new body, the church. He breathed eternal life into them. Calvary, the all-effective altar of God, had dealt with the sin question, and those who were dead in trespasses and sin now could receive the life-giving, regenerating Holy Spirit. This was for them the occasion where they were baptized into one body by the Spirit (I Cor.12:13).
But John said that God had said that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit, not that He would give the Spirit. I wonder how these disciples thought and felt about all these strange things? However, a few weeks later Jesus again spoke to the same men to whom He had said, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” Now He confirms John’s message. He says to them, “John truly baptized with water: but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence” (Acts 1: 5). Here Christ accepts and confirms the same image that God had given to John, a baptism in water and a baptism in the Holy Spirit—indeed a river baptism, but the river of life must first begin to flow upon earth.
Several predictions were confirmed on the Day of Pentecost. The Father gave the promised Holy Ghost, who was heard as wind and seen as fire. Jesus began to baptize in the Spirit and fire. The immediate consequence of this baptism was that the candidates began to speak with other tongues as Jesus had promised (Mark 16: 17). Then the Holy Spirit began to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment as Peter preached to the multitude (John 16:8). But the record says, “They were all filled {overflowed] with the Holy Ghost, and [of which was] they began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Acts2:4).
It seems that from this very day onward much more emphasis was given to the experience of the disciples than to the act of Jesus the Baptizer, and the whole controversy began to revolve around glossolalia—speaking with other tongues—which was the very simple consequence of this baptism in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was the gift and tongues was the consequence. These tongues were a manifestation of the Holy Spirit and not a manifestation of the ecstasy of the human spirit. Speaking in tongues by the Holy Spirit or, as Paul puts it, “Praying with the Spirit,” is an act of the Holy Spirit upon the human spirit which transcends the understanding (I Cor.14: 14, 15).
Thus it seems clear that on the day of Pentecost the spirit of the disciples was baptized into the Holy Spirit and their bodies were filled with the Holy Spirit—overflowed with the Holy Spirit. The fact that they commenced to speak “with the Spirit” was proof of this overflowing.
In our day many pray for an infilling, an experience, instead of seeking the Baptizer. They ask the Holy Spirit to fill them when they should be asking Christ to baptize them. The baptism will produce the filling. This filling of the body by the baptism of the human spirit into the Holy Spirit produces an overflowing (see John 7:38) which causes the vocal organs to go into action and speak a language that is unknown to the candidate. He may be fully aware of what he is doing but does not know what he is saying (I Cor.14:14).
On the day of Pentecost God gave the Holy Spirit and Christ then baptized His followers into the Spirit, and they began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:4). About 10 years later, according to Acts 10:44—46, when the Apostle Peter dared to preach to the Gentiles for the first time (Acts 11:19), these same Gentiles received exactly the same experience that the apostles and the disciples of Christ had on the day of Pentecost. The record says, “And they of the circumcision [Jews] were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God” (Acts 10:46). The Jewish Christians in Jerusalem objected to all this. (Acts 11:2). Then Peter in his defense said, “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 11: 15, 16). In other words, it was the same Baptizer who baptized into the same element, with the same consequences. The consequences were what convinced the Jewish Christians that the experience of the Gentiles was valid, for they heard them speak with tongues
(Acts 10:46).
From this record it is quite clear that during the first decade Peter and the church in Jerusalem believed that Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and that “speaking with tongues” was the immediate consequence or confirmation of this baptism. During this last decade in our time the Christian world has become more conscious of the Holy Spirit and many are reaching out for His power and a charismatic ministry. However, it seems to me that unless the church once again lifts up Christ as the Baptizer, many will seek the blessing from the Holy Spirit and fail to find it because He will always honor Christ.
To get the baptism in the Spirit everyone must seek an encounter with the Baptizer, who began this ministry on the day of Pentecost when He truly came back in the Spirit to baptize His disciples. He is the same, yesterday, today and forever (Heb.13:8).
David Duplessis .......[Mr. Pentecost]
From this record it is quite clear that during the first decade Peter and the church in Jerusalem believed that Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and that “speaking with tongues” was the immediate consequence or confirmation of this baptism.
du Plessis' emphasis on seeking the Baptizer is good but although I speak with tongues I could not agree with this quoted conclusion.
Great post.
Thanks Eddie
philologos wrote:From this record it is quite clear that during the first decade Peter and the church in Jerusalem believed that Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and that “speaking with tongues” was the immediate consequence or confirmation of this baptism.
du Plessis' emphasis on seeking the Baptizer is good but although I speak with tongues I could not agree with this quoted conclusion.
How then did they know when one was?
Acts 19:1-6 (KJV)
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, [2] He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. [3] And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. [4] Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. [5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [6] And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
How did both Paul and the disciples of John were, to His/their satisfaction?
Nothing about this seemed by a surprise or seen as something out of the ordinary; of what was to be expected.
Orm
How then did they know when one was?
The modern, from the early 1900's, view came from Topeka Bible College*. They asked the question 'what is the indisputable proof of the baptism in the Spirit?' and on a mathematical calculation that of 5 New Testament accounts (60% spoke in tongues when baptised in the Spirit{Pentecost Acts 2, Caesaea Acts 10, Ephesus Acts 19}, and additional 20% did so at some period which may or may not have been when they were baptized in the Spirit {Paul 1Cor 14:18}, and the remaining 20% experienced some observable phenomena {Samaria Acts 8:17-18}) concluded that the most consistent expression of the baptism in the Spirit was speaking in tongues.
Their question, of course, begs another question. "[u]Is there
*at Charles Fox Parham's Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas in 1901. Parham, a minister of Methodist background, formulated the doctrine that tongues was the "Bible evidence" of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
philologos explained
W O W ! ! !They asked the question 'what is the indisputable proof of the baptism in the Spirit?' and on a mathematical calculation that of 5 New Testament accounts (60% spoke in tongues when baptised in the Spirit{Pentecost Acts 2, Caesaea Acts 10, Ephesus Acts 19}, and additional 20% did so at some period which may or may not have been when they were baptized in the Spirit {Paul 1Cor 14:18}, and the remaining 20% experienced some observable phenomena {Samaria Acts 8:17-18}) the most consistent expression of the baptism in the Spirit was speaking in tongues.
This has got to be one of the most illuminating answers to a question I have ever heard - not for it's stunning spiritual truth, but for its pragmatism....... and the amount of wheel-wobble such a very reasonable question has provoked within the 'Christian' community.
I've just had a thought.... and it is only a thought.... which is: I wonder if speaking in tongues as a first sign of baptism in the Spirit is more common amongst those who have been delivered, by their new faith in Christ, from certain namable bondages such as [u]the Law[u]in association with occult practices
Also, maybe some believers would begin speaking in tongues later in their Christian life, but are given other gifts first. I don't think we can chide God when His choice of initial giftings does not match up with someone else's quota. That brings to mind what Jesus said to Peter in John 21:22 If I will that ....... what is that to thee? follow thou me.
philologos wrote:How then did they know when one was?
The modern, from the early 1900's, view came from Topeka Bible College*. They asked the question 'what is the indisputable proof of the baptism in the Spirit?' and on a mathematical calculation that of 5 New Testament accounts (60% spoke in tongues when baptised in the Spirit{Pentecost Acts 2, Caesaea Acts 10, Ephesus Acts 19}, and additional 20% did so at some period which may or may not have been when they were baptized in the Spirit {Paul 1Cor 14:18}, and the remaining 20% experienced some observable phenomena {Samaria Acts 8:17-18}) concluded that the most consistent expression of the baptism in the Spirit was speaking in tongues.
Their question, of course, begs another question. "[u]Is there
*at Charles Fox Parham's Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas in 1901. Parham, a minister of Methodist background, formulated the doctrine that tongues was the "Bible evidence" of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
In thinking more about this I believe the gifts of the Spirit are to produce fruit. Fruit we are compelled to produce that we be known of the Father. On the hand, while Gifts are elective, the question is can we produce the Fruit of the Spirit without the Gifts of the Spirit to help us? How then do you suppose we can know we are blessed of the Holy Spirit baptism?
Greetings,
I haven't read any of the other posts, but going along with the topic I thought I would post an article for all to read that I believe would be greatly edifying. It is John G. Lake's testimony of receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Read it here: http://www.revivalarmy.com/BaptismofFire.htm
here is a post from another thread, when people say talking in tongues is "the" evidence of being filled or something similar to statements like that, i dont know if this list is absolutely true or not but it is interesting
(from the thread " talking in tongues? " )
To answer your question about those who were baptized by the Holy Spirit that did not speak in tongues here are names:
John Wesley
Charles Finney
D L Moody
R A Torrey
J Wilbur Chapman
Evan Roberts
A B Earle
A T Pierson
Duncan Campbell
Leonard Ravehnill
John R Rice
J Edwin Orr
These never had a documented experience but obviously were obviously filled with the Spirit of God:
Billy Sunday
Charles Spurgeon
In thinking more about this I believe the gifts of the Spirit are to produce fruit. Fruit we are compelled to produce that we be known of the Father. On the hand, while Gifts are elective, the question is can we produce the Fruit of the Spirit without the Gifts of the Spirit to help us? How then do you suppose we can know we are blessed of the Holy Spirit baptism?
I think it is helpful to distinguish between gifts and fruit. Of course, the Spirit is the author of both but the gifts that hang on my Christmas tree are not the same as the fruit that grows on my plum tree. The gifts may reveal much about the giver but nothing about the nature of the tree. The fruit, on the other hand, reveal unmistakably the nature of the tree.
It is not in the nature of a gift to 'prove' anything about the nature of the recipient (this is why I cannot regard 'tongues' as 'proof'), but by their fruits you will know them.
Gifts, I think, are timed expressions of God's love and power. They come[1] and according to 1 Cor 13, they will 'pass away'. Fruit is an abiding feature of the nature of the one bearing the fruit; love abides.
[1][color=0000ff]“God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?”(Heb 2:4 NKJV)[/color] The word here for 'gifts' is not charimata but "[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=3311&page=1&flag_full=1]merismos
philologos wrote:In thinking more about this I believe the gifts of the Spirit are to produce fruit. Fruit we are compelled to produce that we be known of the Father. On the hand, while Gifts are elective, the question is can we produce the Fruit of the Spirit without the Gifts of the Spirit to help us? How then do you suppose we can know we are blessed of the Holy Spirit baptism?
I think it is helpful to distinguish between gifts and fruit. Of course, the Spirit is the author of both but the gifts that hang on my Christmas tree are not the same as the fruit that grows on my plum tree. The gifts may reveal much about the giver but nothing about the nature of the tree. The fruit, on the other hand, reveal unmistakably the nature of the tree.
Indeed, the fig tree Jesus cursed comes quickly to mind....and the reason He cursed it.
It is not in the nature of a gift to 'prove' anything about the nature of the recipient (this is why I cannot regard 'tongues' as 'proof'), but by their fruits you will know them.
The fig tree sure looked good, didn't it?
Gifts, I think, are timed expressions of God's love and power. They come[1] and according to 1 Cor 13, they will 'pass away'. Fruit is an abiding feature of the nature of the one bearing the fruit; love abides.
Yes. However, the danger for us is they must accurately be discerned, not followed after, but discerned, because they will be for our edification until we see Him face to face.
[1][color=0000ff]“God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?”(Heb 2:4 NKJV)[/color] The word here for 'gifts' is not charimata but "[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=3311&page=1&flag_full=1]merismos[/url] " - distributions. Gifts are distributed, fruit grows organically. The 'distributor' may distribute 'gifts' unevenly, but fruit is required of every tree.
Indeed, that is so. I have been in the Pentecostal "world" for 60 yrs of my almost 70. I know what I have found to be true in/for my life that sustains me. What is the way to discernment, in your estimation/experience?
Orm
The gifts of the Spirit are for the building up of the Body of Christ. Every belever has been given at least one spiritual gift. Every believer has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the empowering of the Holy Spirit for ministry.
The gifts may reveal much about the giver but nothing about the nature of the tree. The fruit, on the other hand, reveal unmistakably the nature of the tree.
Ron, this is so good. May I use it? :-)
I'll let 'em know I heard it from you.
B Paul
I have been in the Pentecostal "world" for 60 yrs of my almost 70. I know what I have found to be true in/for my life that sustains me. What is the way to discernment, in your estimation/experience?
Ah, another silver-surfer!!
I think it is interesting that we find the charismatic gifts, biblically, in the context of the local church. The atmosphere is obviously one of close proximity and informality.[1] This speaks to me of people who knew each other and were open to each others lives and ministries. I think in this kind of context 'discernment' was a very different matter to trying to 'suss out' what is happening in a mega-church.
[1] “But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.” (1Cor 14:30 NKJV)
philologos wrote:I have been in the Pentecostal "world" for 60 yrs of my almost 70. I know what I have found to be true in/for my life that sustains me. What is the way to discernment, in your estimation/experience?
Ah, another silver-surfer!!
I think it is interesting that we find the charismatic gifts, biblically, in the context of the local church. The atmosphere is obviously one of close proximity and informality.[1] This speaks to me of people who knew each other and were open to each others lives and ministries. I think in this kind of context 'discernment' was a very different matter to trying to 'suss out' what is happening in a mega-church.
[1] “But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.” (1Cor 14:30 NKJV)
Amen. but "suss it out" we must. There is much at stake for which we are responsible. The "Plumbline" of Amos must be stood up. Distinctions must be made that presumption be avoided/rebuked. I directly find myself in that kind of a situation.
Re:
Ah, another silver-surfer!!
Yes. Been there and got all the "memorabeelya" :-)
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
There are diferences of ministries, but the same Lord.
And there are diversitie of activities, but the same God who works all in all.
But the manfestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit....
to another different kinds of tongues
1 Cor 12:4-8a,10d
Do all have gifts of healings? Do all have gifts of tongues? Do all interpret?
1 Cor 12:30
I would that you all spoke with tongues
1 Cor 14:5a
What we need dear brethren is more scripture and less opinion.
In His Love,
Doug
What we need dear brethren is more scripture and less opinion.
is that your opinion? ;-)
Somehow this thread wandered off into the question of whether speaking with tongues is the sole "proof" of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. There are opinions that this is so. Others deny the gifts for today altogether. It is my opinion that scripture is the answer to these views.
So, to answer your question, yes, the need for more sripture is my opinion!!
In His Love
Doug
PS cute, very cute. :-)
it is my opinion that your opinion is sound in this opinion, but then again its only an opinion. :-)