So you have to be single the rest of your life?... Discussion with a Menonite

Hello everyone,

Long story short I ended up having a conversation with a Menonite (sp) whose church believes the bible says that to get married after a divorce is a sin. OK, but I presented this situation...

1. Say an unsaved couple get married and later gets divorced.

2. Years later the man gets married again (his second marriage, her first marriage) - he and his wife (who was also unsaved) come to the Lord and become Christians (with fruit bearing evidence).

So is the guy committing adultery? According to this menonite (sp) he is, and therefore is going to Hell. Also the wife is committing fornication and adultery. Interesting eh?

I countered that if the guy, during his second marriage, repents, believes and confesses then God forgives him; even to the point where God remembers his sins no more (thrown into the sea of forgetfullness - throws them as far as the east is from the west). So if God forgives and forgets, then how can this guy still be in sin?

Does that mean God forgives, but not in this case? Apparently this menonite believes that by continuing in this relationship it is a life of sin, and that he should separate (doesnt this called divorce?) and be single until his first wife dies, or he dies.

I believe the bible says this guy is forgiven and should just continue living his life with his saved wife as unto God, and to go and sin no more (IOW dont go out and divorce again).

What do you all think?

I believe the bible says this guy is forgiven and should just continue living his life with his saved wife as unto God, and to go and sin no more (IOW dont go out and divorce again).

I really don't know what to think, I know what I should say -divorce is wrong, no ifs ands or buts.

I was just considering the same question for the perspective of homosexuality. What if they were gay first, and became Christians repented and asked for forgiveness, then continued having relations with their gay partner... we'd say that person was still living in sin.

The bible is clear that marriage is making two people one... not just sexually, but spiritually. When you are married to someone, apart from betrayal you have bound yourself to that person by promise and by soul strings.

I'm not married, in fact I haven't even been on a date in 6 years, so I really don't know if I have any room to talk on this subject, but that was my general take on what the bible meant by this.

It might be worth reading CS Lewis' Mere Christianity about marriage. It has a very good chapter on why divorce is such a big issue to Christianity.

^_~ I'm a relational retard, so I'll probably be single for the rest of my life, even though I'd like to get married some day.

As I consider it, as much as I'd like children, and like to be intimate with one other person, there are so many more things that a single Christian man can do for the Lord that a married man cannot do... like run off the mission field without any concern for his wife or family.

Right now, where I am, I consider it a blessing that God has closed doors in relationships where I would have liked them open... If I had run off and found a mate long ago, I doubt I'd give any serious thought to the mission field.

Scripture agrees with you, therefore, so do I. We were carnal, now we are spiritual(Rom.8). I'm surprised that a Menonite woman would speak to you casually about divorce. Divorce is rare in their communities because they attempt to adhere to scriptural teaching militantly. I think this woman does not speak for Memonites generally on the matter of pre/post salvation and the position of the individual in the Lord or in the community.

To make it clear, I didnt approach a menonite wife... I have travelled the world & know it would not be proper. I saw the menonite couple (husband and wife) and approached the husband to inquire about his wife's head covering. After some discussion he brought up the topic of no military service (I am retired army), divorce, etc.

I dont agree with his stance on divorce (I would say that is a personal conviction and not a commandment for everyone. Other than that, we had a great time of fellowship. We talked about the lack of churches preaching the true gospel message, salvation, fruit, etc. They even invited me to their church - which I might do to just for the experience.

Good stuff, but I never would have experienced it if I hadnt asked a simple question. BTW if they werent "saved" I was planning to witness to them ;-)

Mennonites are like brothers akin to Baptists... since I am a Southern Baptist I feel a certain affinity towards them and the Amish.

You know, I think about 33% of the sin in my life has been a result of me being in front of a computer and not out doing something better with my time... I think it'd be nice to get back to a simpler life without a lot of our modern distractions like TV's and Computers.

Heck, sometimes I wish I didn't even own a cell phone.

Don't kid yourself; they suffer all the temptation we do, they are not insulated from the world, the flesh, or the devil any more than we are. I can relate though to your yearning for simplicity. I was reading Matthew Henry's commentaries on the NT last December and I was drawn in by his advice and posted it as a worthy goal for the new year; he said to "Glorify God, mortify the flesh, simplify your life". Tough stuff huh?

Good stuff...

I really don't know what to think, I know what I should say -divorce is wrong, no ifs ands or buts.

I agree that divorce is wrong, but in the situation presented, sometimes it happens before we even know the Lord (it doesnt matter then because we are condemned already = John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever [u]does not believe is condemned already[/u]...".

In this case, they were saying the guy is going to Hell because he was living a life of adultery & fornication, even tho he got saved during his second marriage. I just dont see in scripture where the sin of divorce is the only sin that follows us forever, and is not forgiven. Like I said, if the guy and his wife became christians, then the command to "Go and sin no more" means to stay married this time till death do them part.

I was just considering the same question for the perspective of homosexuality. What if they were gay first, and became Christians repented and asked for forgiveness, then continued having relations with their gay partner... we'd say that person was still living in sin.

Now that is another ball of wax... Stopping sin in one area of your life and continuing to live in sin in another area (homosexuality) is not condoned. The bible says that we are to not use the grace of God so we can continue in sin.

As for being single, it does give more opportunities than what most us married folk can do (but that is not always the case - I have heard of entire families who went off to do missions).

In 1988, I found it necessary to leave my husband with my two small children. I agonized over this decision. I was very young and certainly no theologian, but as I searched the scriptures, I couldn't escape the clear teaching of Christ on divorce. I resolved, even at 23 to remain unmarried (celibate) if we couldn't reconcile. Moreover, I did NOT want another man to have close contact with my children. That thought really revolted me.

I was a believer then. If a person were converted after the divorce perhaps a different view would prevail. I just don't know.

My husband and I reunited after one year. Eight years later he repented and bowed to Christ as his Lord and Savior.

I tell you the truth, I may need two eternities to praise God for all the riches of grace.

In Him,
C.M.

The word of God is very clear, right from the mouth of Jesus:

[color=990033]Mat 5:31 ¶ It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: [/color]

[color=990033]Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. [/color]

If people really understood that He meant what He said they would enter into marriage more carefully and they wouldn't get out of them either.

I have seen many Christians who hold onto the thought that they have an option to divorce their spouse. In the back of their minds they aren't really committed but mor akin to the worlds view. They come up with loop holes. I'll just never remarry. I have heard that one several times. They figure they can get away with divorce by saying that. This is the result of having a difficult to deal with spouse or an unsaved one. However Jesus said only for adultry, not just because you are sick of them. I have had to confront this issue a number of times and stand my ground even though it caused a rift between me and a close friend.

I have had to deal with this scripture in my own life because I have gone through seasons where my own marriage was more than I thought I could endure. However, every time I have remembered my committment and covenant, not with my spouse (as important as that is), but with God. God told me divorce is not an option for a Christian and My grace is sufficient for you.

The word isn't to be taken lightly. Marriage isn't to be taken lightly. The word says not to divorce, and even if the spouse is unfaithful you are to divorce them only if your can't forgive them. I know of a number of marriages that were restored after infidelity. This is certainly no open door to be unfaithful however.

I do think that in the case where someone was divorced and remarried before salvation that is a different thing because the old man is dead and all things have become new. A murder is forgiven, a theaf and a divorcee.

[color=000099]2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[/color]

It seems to me it would be crazy to divorce your spouse because it was a second marriage after you got saved. What if you had children? Should you desert them as unclean seed? I believe these verses are binding on believers. Jesus was telling what believers are supposed to walk in.

If we make a covenant with our spouse in the sight of God, or get saved after we had already been married we are supposed to stay married to them until Jesus comes or we die, unless they decided to committ adultary. Then we can divorce if we can't forget and forgive.

My personal belief on this is that if possible it would be better to forgive and reconile if it is in your heart to do it. But that's just what I think. Love covers a multitude of sins.

I can't place a verse on this but if a spouse is physically abusive I think the endangered individual should leave them for safety sake, but not remarry. I would probably say not even file for divorce, but remain separate unless something changes and they are out of danger. Paul said some things he spoke were his opinion and this is my opinion on this paragraph, I'm not making a doctrine of it.

I really think this explains it well. Very long, very in depth, and very worth it. All the scriptures dealing with the issue are addressed. It changed my view. See what you think.

[url=http://www.shepherdserve.org/dmm/dmm_13.htm]Divorce and Remarriage[/url]

God Bless

TJ

Most people find it hard to reconcile how a divorce before salvation can affect you after you are saved. And so most recommend that a person saved prior to or during their subsequent marriage should stay married. It would be too painful to break up a loving marriage for a sin committed before conversion.

How would these people advise a person who had two wives before he became a Christian and say, had children to both wives. He is now saved but living in polygamy.

Some Christians would agree that he has to divorce one wife regardless of the pain it causes him, his wife and their children. This in my opinion is no different to a person who has remarried and then got saved. So it seems the same solution must be applied, regardless of the pain it causes.

Jesus couldn't have been any clearer - remarriage is adultery. He says this in every teaching He gives on divorce and remarriage. Paul essentially repeats it in Rom 7 and 1 Cor 7.39. Divorce, and thus remarriage was not permitted until Moses. Moses legislated it, along with rape (you had to marry the virgin you raped), and polygamy. Those that argue for divorce and remarriage from the law of Moses get into some sticky ground if they are to be consistent. Jesus wiped away the law of Moses in this area by saying "You have heard it said ... but i say to you..."

Jesus simply brought mankind back to God's original law. No divorce, no remarriage. These scriptures aren't hard to understand. They are just hard to apply. A child could explain most of them for us. The challenge is really do we beleive what we read or do we read what we beleive?

I think this explains it better :-D
[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1986/1488_Divorce_and_Remarriage_A_Position_Paper/]John Piper position paper.[/url]

Yes, that is very good advice. Trying to attain righteousness by the law is a real problem and, as you well put, will turn on you.

Should someone use the law (NT or OT) to say that adultery is categorically wrong? Is that being legalistic? Should that be preached from pulpits and should we place others under this law? I think most Bible believing Christians would say Yes. And this needs to be declared regularly given the sexual immorality we find in our churches today.

Now Jesus says in Mt 5, Mt 19, Mk 10 and Lu 16 that remarriage results in adultery. In Mt and Lu Jesus even says that if I remarry after my husband has gone off and committed adultery with his new wife, I am still guilty of adultery (that seems awfully unfair but that's what it says). So is it not consistent and needful to say remarriage is also wrong?

Divorce is just not an option for a Christian. Paul when writing to a very immoral people even by the base standards of the day says 1Co 7:10 GNB For married people I have a command which is not my own but the Lord's: a wife must not leave her husband;

But if I disobey that command then remarriage is not an option either:
1Co 7:11 KJV But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

It's hard to explain away such clear scripture. Those that try by using God's grace as the justification end up heading down this path: Jud 1:4 GNB For some godless people have slipped in unnoticed among us, persons who distort the message about the grace of our God in order to excuse their immoral ways, and who reject Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord. Long ago the Scriptures predicted the condemnation they have received.

I really dont want to be one that uses God's grace to excuse what Jesus calls adultery.

Divorce is just not an option for a Christian.

1 Corinthians 7:15

15But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

1 Corinthians 7:15 (King James Version)

15But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

This says no longer under bondage, and is not speaking of death.

When I was saved my wife would not remain. She became hostile to Christian things and demanded a divorce.

I believe I am no longer in bondage and am free to remarry. I believe this is Biblical.

I have not done so.

I don’t know if I ever will.

I try to focus on the bride of Christ

I will follow where he leads.

PS
Your posts are appreciated as well Brother

I agree, but...

So those that are in an adulterous marriage should compound their sin even more by adding a divorce? They should commit a sin to rectify another one?

Just tossing this out for discussion.

Thanks for the reply…I see what you are saying.

My wife had been previously married and she divorced for unbiblical reasons.

So my marriage was not a marriage in Gods eyes?

The issue Jesus speaks most about and seems to condemn is not primarily divorce but rather the remarriage. For most people, a divorce is sought so they can remarry. The 1 Co 7 passage says that an unbeleiver has left the believer. So that still doesnt condone a Christian divorcing. The word bondage Paul uses for 'not under bondage' is a strange one. It is translated elsewhere as enslaved. The believer is not bound to go chasing after his unbelieving wife. We read into that an implied permission to remarry but it doesn't say that.

The only way a second marriage could be adulterous is if the first is still intact. So i think that a second marriage probably isnt regarded by God as binding since Jesus says it is adultery. Ending it is like ending any unlawful marriage (between adult and a minor, homosexual marriage etc) How would you advise someone committing adultery? The same advice could be given to a remarried person whose first spouse is still alive i think.

What is an unpardonable sin? Jim has quoted 1Co6 many times. Covetousness is the 'unpardonable' sin if it persisted in. So is fornication, and adultery, and idolatory. We are not isolating remarriage as some special case. It is peculiar because it is a state of being not a one off action. That is one reason why it makes it harder. If you repent of fornication you simply stop doing it. What do you do if you repent of a remarriage?

Most Christian remarried people (some of my best friends are in this category) would say that they did not know that this could possibly be wrong and that their pastors told them it was perfectly ok. Gen 20 tells a very scary story about Abimelech. He was tricked into taking Sarah, Abraham's wife. God said this to him: Gen 20:3 KJV But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. Abimelech rightly complained. God didn't relent but required Abimelech to return Sarah to her rightful husband. Then He relented.

That passage seems instructive to me on a few levels.

This is a very difficult thing to work through. I was MC at one of my best mate's wedding where he married a divorced person. They love each other dearly and now have 1.5 beautiful kids. I dont want to believe that what am i saying is right. But if i dont believe Jesus words regarding something as serious as adultery, which words should i beleive?