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To all the "Prophets"

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sermonindex

Hebrews chapter 1: 1-3 clearly tells us that the ministry of the "old testament" prophet has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.


1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

The ministry of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Hosea, etc. has been fulfilled.

Their main ministry was to point Israel to the coming Messiah, and He has now come.

Yes, of course, there is prophecy in the New Testament, and I think brother Philologos has a pretty good teaching on it, you should check it out.
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I have a request for all the "prophets", and I am serious, I am not being facitious.

Before you post your next prophecy could you please share with us something that the Holy Spirit has shown you concerning the person of Jesus Christ?
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When Jesus was walking with the men on the road to Emmaus, after the resurrection, He talked to them about One thing. Himself.

25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


He did not talk to them about the evils of Rome. He did not talk to them about the coming destruction of Jerusalem. He did not talk to them about the continuing Hypocrisy of the religious leaders.

No, His concern was to reveal to them who He is. And if we read John 14-16 we will see that this is also the main ministry of the Holy Spirit.
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I will paraphrase, but Peter says that the prophets of old would have given anything to see what we see. We can have an intimacy with God that they could only dream of.

I have said before that anyone can point out the evils of the "church". All you have to do is read a couple of Ravenhill books and regurgitate them.

But to know God, to experience the Life of Jesus Christ and then be able to give that life to others...that is the true treasure...that is what we should be seeking. To know Him.

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rowdy2

No tabernacles built for Moses and Elias, representing the Priest and the Prophets on the Mount of transfiguration when Peter, and James, and John saw Him transfigured before them no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves and the were told by the beloved Father that Jesus was His beloved Son: Hear Him..

Eddie

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myfirstLove

Their main ministry was to point Israel to the coming Messiah, and He has now come.

have you read all the prophets?

what was jeremiah sent for?

to root out,and pull down, to destroy, and throw down, to build and plant (jer. 1:10)

a prophet cannot even begun to build and plant until he first root out and pull down. and not all prophets are called to do the same things.

jeremiah did similar to what jesus did in rev. He expose them to their sin, and told them to repent. the church could not have been built up until they first root out the sin.

jeremiah spoke very hard words. all the prophets did. it was harder then joseph's words. Jesus started out speaking just like jeremiah how he remebers the "good" they have, but now they are wicked, and have sin and in need to repent before its too late.

the prophets of old would say IF they repent THEN will the Lord be merciful and restore.......just like Jesus in rev.

I have a request for all the "prophets", and I am serious, I am not being facitious.

prophets will speak what the Lord tells them to speak, not what mahoney shares.

i believe that you are so focus on the negative of the prophets that you have missed out on the hope that the prophets shares. just like isreal, who cast out the prophets because their words were too hard, exposing their sins that they became hard of heart to hearing the message of restoration and healing from the prophets, if His people would humble themselves and turn from their wicked ways.

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fromtheold

Prophet comes from the word SEER. Their purpose is to see what is coming and to tell others. As well, God gives every prophet a certain word. :-)

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Christisking

prophets will speak what the Lord tells them to speak, not what mahoney shares.

I agree - Mahoney has little understanding of the prophetic in the church today. Part of what he is saying is correct, but he leave a big part of the picture out. It seems as though he only sees on of or two of the pieces of the puzzle and not the whole picture. I would suggest that anyone who wish to further there understanding about "prophets" and the "prophetic" check out these sermons here on sermonindex. These will help to increase the understanding of those who posses a teachable spirit - if you are unteachable and dogmatic in your understanding then don't bother.

Prophet Reality Verses Fantasy - Art Katz
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2788

True And False Prophets - Part 1 - Art Katz
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=7143

True And False Prophets - Part 2 - Art Katz
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=7144

The Mark Of A True Prophet - Art Katz
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2786

The Spirit Of True Prophet - Leonard Ravenhill
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=8482

The Call OF A True Prophet - A.W. Tozer
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=1814

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ChrisJD

"Before you post your next prophecy could you please share with us something that the Holy Spirit has shown you concerning the person of Jesus Christ?"

That doesn't seem unreasonable to me? Rev 1:1 19:10 22:9


The inspired Apostle wrote

[i]But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you...[/i]

[i]...For I know nothing by myself...[/i]

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Christinyou

Who is the only true and active Prophet we have now? It is Jesus Christ. If Jesus Christ is born again in us, do we all not have the capacity to be prophets by His power and direction and the leading of the Holy
Spirit. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If Christ liveth in us who's life are to live? The true prophet of Jesus Christ is anyone He chooses to us in the building up of the Church in knowing Him and making Him known, this is true prophecy.


In Christ: Phillip

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sermonindex

I agree - Mahoney has little understanding of the prophetic in the church today.

(First of all, it’s not about me, and I if I made it seem like it’s about me, I am sorry)


Ok, let's say I am ignorant of the role of a "prophet" today. (Of which, admittedly, I am somewhat ignorant)


Lets' say a prophet is telling someone of the coming calamities on the world and the church and that someone believes this "prophet" and is very fearful and repentant. They ask, "What do I have to do?"

What do you, or the "prophet" give that individual? What do you tell them?


Lets' say a year or so down the road that individual comes to you and says that they have been struggling with sin and they have actually fallen into an old sin.

What do you tell them? What do you give them?

Let's say this same individual finds it so hard to get up in the morning to pray, and more times than not they fail to really spend quality time with God.

What do you tell them? What do you give them?

Let's say this individual really wants to live for God, but he finds it so difficult to do. He wants to be a shining witness for God, but he also is trapped in fear. The things he desires to do he does not find the strength to do them, and the things that he knows displease God he finds himself doing sometimes. He lives under condemnation and cannot seem to get out from under it. He still believes that judgment is coming, and that God is going to judge him also.

What do you give this man? What do you tell him?

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rowdy2

Give this man a Bible and help him understand
Matthew: 10 I am a deciple. A "little one".

A disciple of Christ is one who

(1.) believes his doctrine,

(2.) rests on his sacrifice,

(3.) imbibes his spirit, and

(4.) imitates his example (Matt. 10:24; Luke 14:26, 27, 33; John 6:69).

Eddie

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IRONMAN

Mahoney

Ok, let's say I am ignorant of the role of a "prophet" today. (Of which, admittedly, I am somewhat ignorant)

you're not the only one bro, many many more people are unsure of what a prophet is hence you have people like nostradamus being hailed as prophets. the truth is, a prophet speaks the heart of God to His people as He is led. He can say no more or less than what God gives Him which becomes a problem when people get to asking a bunch of questions to which he is constrained to answer sometimes. Anyhow, this word from God may or may not be anything to do with the future, Samuel was a prophet but didn't have much to say about the future, as was Abraham, Elijah, Elisha and some others also.

Lets' say a prophet is telling someone of the coming calamities on the world and the church and that someone believes this "prophet" and is very fearful and repentant. They ask, "What do I have to do?"

now when our Lord does tell of something terrible to come, the idea is to give people time to repent before hand. if someone is fearful and repentant in response to the warning of the prophet, there is nothing really that the prophet must tell him because he is repentant already. if our Lord has more specific instructions then that's a different matter. if the person if fearful and genuinely doesn't know what to do like those who came to John the Baptist, what did he tell them to do? "REPENT!!!"

Lets' say a year or so down the road that individual comes to you and says that they have been struggling with sin and they have actually fallen into an old sin.

confess your sin and REPENT!!! because God is just to forgive us if we do confess our sins before Him. Repentance and death to self are things which we must practice daily. again if God has more specific instructions, then our Lord will surely give the prophet unction and words to speak.

Let's say this same individual finds it so hard to get up in the morning to pray, and more times than not they fail to really spend quality time with God.

i am reminded by our Lord through this which you said about ELijah. Elijah spent 2 years with that gentile woman. when he came to her, she had enough meal to make one last loaf of bread and then wait to die with her son. if anyone was hopeless, she was. i suppose she had a hard time believing in God but when Elijah came and asked for the last bit of food she had, she at first refused but eventually gave it up and for 2 yrs the 3 of them didn't go hungry. when that 2 yrs was over, she came away knowing and believing in God and being convinced Elijah was a man of God. We are to minister to others as our Lord leads. if it is a word of admonition, a prayer, giving of food and drink, clothing or whatever. We sometimes have to show the way to do things as we are led also.

ultimately it boils down to what God is seeking to do in that person's life and your role in that. if we seek God concerning this and follow after what He needs us to do then we'll have fully obeyed Him regaring the matter.

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sermonindex

Before you post your next prophecy

the rule which I am going to add to the community rules is for the prophetic words to be sent to me and it will be prayed over by the moderator staff. And if it is approved the poster will be notified. I believe that if we posted every prophecy that is being written there would be such a influx of these "words" that it will muddle and confuse the saints towards what God is saying. The SermonIndex community is setup with rules and is somewhat of a model of a true community fellowship. I would therefore say that there should be respect towards some sort of God ordained leadership to allow God to work and speak to the people in this community.

If anyone has problems with this please notify me privately. I have had already one brother state to me that he would not submit to that "rule" and post what he would like. This is a spirit of rebellion and I do ask all to pray about this and "answer God" on this rule.

I
iansmith

I have the original copy of this article at home in the LDM News Letters... I didn't check to see if this was a correct reproduction, but I'll post it anyways (I know there's a copy of his Catholic Chronicles floating around that has been edited and changed... so I can't vouch for this one 100% right now).

Please read. Emphasis is mine.

[b]For Prophets Only[/b]
By Keith Green

This article is sort of a confession. You see, I have struggled with the problem of being labeled a "prophet" for the past six years, and that's quite a long time, considering I've only been a Christian for about seven. I must admit it has kind of a nice ring to it - the word prophet - but I think it causes a lot more trouble than it's worth.

Because we at Last Days have a nationally-known ministry, many people show up at our door from all over the country and want to see first hand what's going on. From time to time though, someone shows up with a "word from the Lord." (I'm not trying to be sarcastic. We've had some pretty interesting characters show up at the door.)

We had one guy show up and when we invited him to eat a meal with us, he said that God had told him not to eat. We asked him, "How long?" He said he didn't know, but he wasn't supposed to eat. Another time, we had a guy with long robes show up who said that God told him to come and tell all the ministries around here that the Garden of Eden was in the state of Georgia!

These are some extreme examples of something I think is a very common problem in the church today - [b]young people (usually men) who believe that God has raised them up to tell people what is wrong with their ministry or their lives, or both![/b] These people [b]are usually hurt, independent, talkative, stubborn, unteachable and unyielding[/b]. I know, because I have been one of them!

What is a true prophet?

God does speak to His people today - not just His special ones - but to all His people. He speaks to them in many ways - through the Holy Spirit who lives in them, through men and women of God in their church and around them, but mainly through the Word of God, the Bible. Whenever the Holy Spirit gives us guidance, it will always line up with the Word God, or it isn't from Him.

As I was studying His precious Word over the past year, it suddenly dawned on me that my whole view of myself and my calling was all backwards. So many people had told me that I was a "prophet" over the years that I believed "they must be right." I saw myself as a spokesman to my generation in the church - not the spokesman, but one of a number, chosen by God to be used to correct and exhort believers to obey God and thus win this world for Jesus.

It's not that I no longer believe that I'm called to do that, it's just that now I see that every believer is called to do that - to call all Christians everywhere to obey God and win the world for Christ!

The main thing that God has shown me through all this is: [b]I'm not called to be a prophet, I'm called to be a CHRISTIAN - a servant of the living God! That is the HIGHEST calling that anyone can realize[/b]. And the most beautiful thing has happened in my heart. My whole goal in life has completely changed - the only thing that I want to achieve, is to have the Lord tell me when I stand before Him, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant! Not, "Well done, thou good and faithful prophet."

To be a Christian, to live up to that wonderful word - that is my ONLY goal. After all, Paul starts out that meaty book of Romans with these words: "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle." Not "... an apostle of Jesus Christ, called to be a servant." No, Paul had his priorities straight - he knew what went first!

A lesson to be learned

I'm sure you know someone in your fellowship who has all the earmarks of being a potential "prophet." They don't beat around the bush, but they say exactly what's on their mind. They aren't very popular, but they don't care because they believe that they're "being persecuted for righteousness' sake." [b]They're always finding fault with almost everything and rarely have a kind word to say.[/b]

And the thing that usually happens to these misguided souls with all the rough edges is that somebody tells them, "Hey! I know what you are, you're a PROPHET!" And then they say to themselves, " Wow! That's why people are so down on me all the time! Why that's just the way they treated Elijah and Jeremiah!"

And then they start getting "words from the Lord" and all the rest that comes along with being a "prophet." [b]The saddest thing about all this is whenever someone is brash, obnoxious, or loud, we label him a "prophet."[/b]

But you know, deep down inside, most of them really do want to please God, [b]but now they're so insulated from criticism and protected from rebuke (because they think they're a rejected "prophet") that no one can help them or reach them. And unless God intervenes in their lives, they cannot be used in any long-term way because of their unteachable, uncorrectable spirit[/b].

[b]One of the main problems for them is that most of what they see as wrong, [i]really IS wrong![/i] But they have little love or grace to share the truth with - they just aim their big cannons and BOOM! They blow their hearers to bits.[/b]

I'm not trying to say that what I wrote or preached in the past was wrong. It's just that some of it could have been said a little differently - and with a lot more grace. Even so, if the Lord says to speak out on an issue, I'll be glad and ready to do it - but I must do it as a servant, not as a prophet. That is Jesus' way.

Hallelujah for the freedom that comes with repentance! Oh, how He makes us new, forgiving us and changing us into His glorious image!

~~~~~~~~

The original article is no longer available from LDM, and parts of it were incorporated and edited into a tract called 'Keith Green - The Man Behind the Message.' Which is available here:
http://www.keithgreen.com/articles/keithgreen.html

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myfirstLove

i agree with greg's post. it should be submitted to greg first.


i disagree with keith green. i believe that God has seperated some as prophets, but i do agree that every christians should encourage each other to KNOW HIM. i don't think keith green was a prophet, but i believe he has prophectic gifting. paul encourages the church to desire the gift of prophecy. by keith's article you can tell he desired this gift and so was used to encourage and exort others to do so also, just like paul.

1 Corinthians 14:1

1 Corinthians 14
Prophecy and Tongues
1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.


to have this gift of prophecy you must know Him. in order to speak the heart of God, you must have a relationship to hear from Him, right? so, yes, i too would encourage all to seek this gift so they speak God's words, His heart, and not their own. they will be better equipt in ministering to the body with this gift.

just like God have raised up evangelist to encourage and train the body to evangelise, but you can see that those who are raised up for evangelist do have more of a gifting to share the gospel. though all are called to do the same, the evangelist do stick out. the same with prophets. all are called to desire the gift of prophecy, but those who are prophets will stick out more with this gift because it was given to them by God. the gift, God's people burns in them, just like evangelism and the lost burns in the evangelist.

paul encourages the church to desire prophecy. we all should be prophesying to one another. prophecy is just not futuristic sayings. prophecy is also exortating and encouraging the body to get right with God, live holy lives, speaking the heart of God. prophecy is exposing the heart. ouch!

1 Corinthians 14:24-25

24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus[b]the secrets of his heart are revealed[/b]; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

remember prophets need refining too, and learning to grow in their gift, unto maturity.

if you want to understand this gift more, i agree with christisking and listen to those who have the gift and are in maturity like art katz.

i believe the prophets is the hardest gift. you won't understand unless you have it. they suffer internally. those who are true prophets do not want this gift at first. they will cry out to God to take it away from them. i won't go on with this, because many will not understand. if you really want to understand more about this gift then listen to art katz or tozer. those who have matured in this gift.

God bless

R
roadsign

the rule which I am going to add to the community rules is for the prophetic words to be sent to me and it will be prayed over by the moderator staff.

Greg, Could you explain what you mean by "prophetic words"? (sorry, I really am uncertain as to what this could include, as the term tends to take on various kinds of "life")

Diane

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Meriwether

Why aren't tht "prophesies" of modern "Prophets" stapled into our Bibles? Are they God-breathed or not? If they "miss God" or speak awry should they be stoned? Just wondering.

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sermonindex

Mahoney wrote:
>But to know God, to experience the Life of Jesus Christ and then be able to give that life to others...that is the true treasure...that is what we should be seeking. To know Him.<

I'm just adding my two cents here but to me, the true treasure is that "Christ be formed in us!!" "Christ in us, THAT is the hope of Glory!!"

I'd like to rephrase what you wrote: We have an intimacy that is "available" to us that the prophets of old only dreamt of having. Lisa adds that whether we walk in it or not is another thing entirely.

(Paraphrasing here) Christ told Peter, "don't worry about what I told John to do, you feed my sheep." He more or less told Peter that John had a different calling than He did and not to worry about John but to worry about himself. To make sure that Christ is formed in Peter, don't worry about John!

I believe in prophets, though I think that there are actually a lot less "true" prophets out there than they think! lol In reality, I'm just called to do what Christ called "me" to do! To pay attention to "my" walk and not focus on anyone elses' and to make sure that I make myself available so that Christ is formed in me.

If we all did that, we wouldn't need these message boards except only for encouragement!

God bless you in your walk with Him!

B
bereangirl

That is very wise Greg. Thank you.


Sonja

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Christinyou

Galatians 4:6-7 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

A true prophet is a servant of God, but it says we are no longer servants. Also Paul said the mystery of Christ was revealed to him and him alone by Jesus Christ Himself. So, even the 12 did not know the mystery of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Then he goes on to say that now by him, Paul, it is revealed to Gods Holy Apostles and Prophets. Wow! Christ being the only Son of God was God the Apostle and Prophet, the Perfect Apostle and Prophet of God. By Christ in us we are now son's of God. What does this mystery reveal about born again son's of God, being, when it comes to "Holy Apostles and Prophets?

Ephesians 3:4-12 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

My Brothers and Sisters, we are all apostles and prophets of God by Christ Jesus Himself in us. Let us go on into the higher calling God has called us to.

Philippians 3:13-14 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Where is our perfection? It is in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior by the Birth of Christ Himself in us By the Perfect Seed of our Father. Abba Father. As son's, not servants.

In Christ: Abba Father, with in the spirit of an affectionate, tender child addressing his Father. He that can in sincerity and with ardent affection apply this term to God, addressing Him with a filial spirit as his Father, has the spirit of Christ in Him.

Which is the mystery: "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" Abba Father, Thank you. Phillip

S
sermonindex

Mmmm

I think that the prophetic word regarding the times we live in is from Isaiah 21:12, "The morning comes, but also the night"! And in Biblical terms night comes first.

Let's look forward to the Morning, but seek to be prepared for the night.

Someone mentioned Jeremiah. He prophesied doom and destruction, sure enough. But, when that destruction was literally at the gates, he bought a field right where the Babylonian armyt was camped!

That really takes faith!

Re. modern prophecies, they should be in line with Scripture, and in that same Spirit who inspired the written Word. Indeed those who have that gift should discern if a word really is of the Spirit or not.

But Moses said, "I wish all God's people were prophets..."

And Paul said, "you may all prophesy one by one..." but that all things should be done "decently and in order".

That's the Moderators' job I think ! :-)

C
Christisking

[size=large]Picture of a Prophet[/size]
[i]by Leonard Ravenhill[/i]

"The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men.
Years back, Dr. Gregory Mantle was right when he said, “No man can be fully accepted until he is totally rejected.” The prophet of the Lord is aware of both these experiences. They are his “brand name.”

The group, challenged by the prophet because they are smug and comfortably insulated from a perishing world in their warm but untested theology, is not likely to vote him “Man of the Year” when he refers to them as habituates of the synagogue of Satan!

The prophet comes to set up that which is upset. His work is to call into line those who are out of line! He is unpopular because he opposes the popular in morality and spirituality. In a day of faceless politicians and voiceless preachers, there is not a more urgent national need than that we cry to God for a prophet! The function of the prophet, as Austin Sparks once said, “has almost always been that of recovery.”

The prophet is God’s detective seeking for a lost treasure. The degree of his effectiveness is determined by his measure of unpopularity.

He does not know compromise.
He has no price tags.
He is totally “otherworldly.”
He is unquestionably controversial and unpardonably hostile.
He marches to another drummer!
He breathes the rarefied air of inspiration.
He is a “seer” who comes to lead the blind.
He lives in the heights of God and comes into the valley with a “thus saith the Lord.”
He shares some of the foreknowledge of God and so is aware of impending judgment.
He lives in “splendid isolation.”
He is forthright and outright, but claims not birthright.
His message is “repent, be reconciled to God or else . . . !”
His prophecies are parried.
His truth brings torment, but his voice is never void.
He is the villain of today and the hero of tomorrow.
He is excommunicated while alive and exalted when dead!
He is dishonored with epithets when breathing and honored with epitaphs when dead.
He is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but few “make the grade” in his class.
He is friendless while living and famous when dead.
He is against the establishment in ministry, then he is established as a saint by posterity.
He eats daily the bread of affliction while he ministers, but he feeds the Bread of Life to those who listen.
He walks before men for days but has walked before God for years.
He is a scourge to the nation before he is scourged by the nation.
He announces, pronounces, and denounces!
He has a heart like a volcano and his words are as fire.
He talks to men about God.
He carries the lamp of truth amongst heretics while he is lampooned by men.
He faces God before he faces men, but he is self-effacing.
He hides with God in the secret place, but he has nothing to hide in the marketplace.
He is naturally sensitive but supernaturally spiritual.
He has passion, purpose and pugnacity.
He is ordained of God but disdained by men.

Our national need at this hour is not that the dollar recovers its strength, or that we find the answer to the ecology problem. We need a God-sent prophet!

I am bombarded with talk or letters about the coming shortages in our national life: bread, fuel, and energy. I read between the lines from people not practiced in scaring folk. They feel that the “seven years of plenty” are over for us. The “seven years of famine” are ahead. But the greatest famine of all in this nation at this given moment is a famine of the hearing of the Word of God (Amos 8:11).

Millions have been spent on evangelism in the last twenty-five years. Hundreds of gospel messages streak through the air over the nation every day. Crusades have been held; healing meetings have made a vital contribution. “Come-outers” have “come out” and settled, too, without a nation-shaking revival. Organizers we have. Skilled preachers abound. Multi-million dollar Christian organizations straddle the nation. BUT where, oh where, is the prophet? Where are the incandescent men fresh from the holy place? Where is the Moses to plead in fasting before the holiness of the Lord for our moldy morality, our political perfidy, and sour and sick spirituality?

God’s men are in hiding until the day of their showing forth. They will come. The prophet is violated during his ministry, but he is vindicated by history.

There is a terrible vacuum in evangelical Christianity today. The missing person in our ranks is the prophet, the man with a terrible earnestness, the man totally otherworldly. He is the man rejected by other men, even other good men, because they consider him too austere, too severely committed, too negative and unsociable.

Let him be as plain as John the Baptist.
Let him for a season be a voice crying in the wilderness of modern theology and stagnant “churchianity.”
Let him be as selfless as Paul the apostle.
Let him, too, say and live, “This ONE thing I do.”
Let him reject ecclesiastical favors.
Let him be self-abasing, nonself-seeking, nonself-projecting, nonself-righteous, nonself-glorying, nonself-promoting.
Let him say nothing that will draw men to himself but only that which will move men to God.
Let him come daily from the throne room of a holy God, the place where he has received the order of the day.
Let him, under God, unstop the ears of the millions who are deaf through the clatter of shekels milked from the hour of material mesmerism.
Let him cry with a voice this century has not heard because he has seen a vision no man in this century has seen.
God send us this Moses to lead us from the wilderness of crass materialism, where the rattlesnakes of lust bite us and where the enlightened men, totally blind spiritually, lead us to an ever-nearing Armageddon.
God have mercy! Send us prophets! – By: Leonard Ravenhill [b]end of article[/b]”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let the words of Leonard Ravenhill speak to your heart and seek deep into your mind – we love Leonard and his words and celebrate his messages on this site, but the real question is “can we put them to practice and take them to heart when they smack our own face???”

God have mercy! Send us prophets!

“What if” God answers Leonard’s heart cries and rise up such men of the George Fox ilk? What would we do? Would we delete their posts? Would we kick them off the forum? Would we require them to submit their words for approval? Would we stone them for being “too harsh” or “too controversial”? Would we label him as having a rebellious spirit? Would we even recognize them or would we reject and vilify them? We say “we would never stone the prophets” but what will we do when and if they really come? These are important questions my friends and I hope and pray with dear Leonard that someday we will find the answer for my heart cries out with Leonard – GOD HAVE MERCY! SEND US PROPHETS!

Can you imagine a prophet submitting the word the Lord gives him to the “leaders” for approval – what would George Fox have to say about this? What did he have to say about this? What you suggest Greg, is the same kind of un-scriptural stuff that the institutional system tries to pull – “submit your word to the leadership for approval” – it is nothing more then a spirit of control and ANTI-scriptural. (If I am wrong – please show in Scripture where prophecy is submitted to leadership for approval and then spoken??? Isaiah – Jeremiah – Ezekiel – Amos – New Testament??????) It is not an issue of order but rather a spirit of control and we SHOULD rebel against such ANTI-scriptural and evil spirits with all our might – never are we told in Scripture to submit to spirits of control. I believe the same spirit of control out of which Greg speaks quenches the Holy Spirit as much if not more then any other spirit in the enemy’s camp. If this is the type of leadership and control that your fellowship lords over you then I suggest you run for your life and if this is the spirit you have picked up at “cemetery” or Bible college then you need to repent! Can you imagine Paul saying to the Corinthian church, “submit all of your prophesies to me for my approval and I will let you know what ones are suitable to be spoken in front of the saints”? Never! Paul knew better than to do this, and we should too.

To anyone who receives a prophetic word from the Lord – It would be very dangerous for you to submit to such spirits of control as Greg suggests – I would rather highly suggest that you speak the word the Lord gives you after much prayer and let the leaders respond as they so choose and answer to the Lord for their response – your job is to speak what the Lord tells you to speak where and when He tells you to speak it. I can assure you that any prophet of the kind that Ravenhill cries out to the Lord for above would NEVER submit the word the Lord gave them to leadership for approval. What will you do Greg if the Lord answers Leonard’s heart cries and God does raise up such men and they visit your forum??? Would you delete their words of correction – would you even know them if you saw them???

I speak only out of love and concern and only post this after much prayer. Please take this to heart and ask your self “What If?” before you make any decision to post in response or delete this heart felt word of correction. Please listen to this sermon by Art Katz lest you come against Biblical correction posted out of love and concern.

[i]“What If?” by Art Katz -[/i]

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=7146

[i]Description: Art raises the questions that few are courageous enough to ask, namely, the actual truth of our condition before God. Do we see ourselves as God sees us or are we satisfied with our own subjective assessment of ourselves? And where does that leave us if we prefer the latter?[/i]


J
JayHil

What is a prophet? Is it some angry man running around yelling God's word at everyone. The man who doesn't care what anyone thinks? What if he has to give a hard word to one whom he really loves?
When I read through Jeremiah I can see a man who loved the people who he had to prophesy against. After all he had grown up with them, he would have played with them as children. So now God gives him words that tell his friends that they are wrong. Anyone feel like being in Jeremiah's place. What if it was his best friend? Anyone ever lose their best friend of spiritual parent because they gave a true word from heaven? Think about it Jeremiah's teachers would have been some of the people he was speaking against. Sounds like alot of fun right?
What I'm asking is that if you truly believe you are God's spokesman, are you ready to give up all that you call dear if God would have you speak a harsh word against them? A true mouthpiece for God, though sounding harsh is probably one of the most tender people you will meet. So if you are a young "prophet" make sure you don't get too much pleasure out of giving hard words.

S
sermonindex

the rule which I am going to add to the community rules is for the prophetic words to be sent to me and it will be prayed over by the moderator staff.


Greg,

Are you going to hold teachers and teachings to the same standard? If everyone brings different teachings it could "muddle and confuse the saints towards what God is saying" or what God has said.

Or..do you see this in a different light?

~sscott

C
crsschk

Can you imagine a prophet submitting the word the Lord gives him to the “leaders” for approval – what would George Fox have to say about this? What did he have to say about this? What you suggest Greg, is the same kind of un-scriptural stuff that the institutional system tries to pull – “submit your word to the leadership for approval” – it is nothing more then a spirit of control and ANTI-scriptural. (If I am wrong – please show in Scripture where prophecy is submitted to leadership for approval and then spoken??? Isaiah – Jeremiah – Ezekiel – Amos – New Testament??????)

1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Problematic that could be in itself but there is something that I believe Greg is concerned about that I would share and it is the runaway things that can be produced so often here. I will quickly bow out of the way and not speak in Greg's stead.

I do not think this lost on anyone here brother, you raise some valid points.

Description: Art raises the questions that few are courageous enough to ask, namely, the actual truth of our condition before God. Do we see ourselves as God sees us or are we satisfied with our own subjective assessment of ourselves? And where does that leave us if we prefer the latter?

There is quite bit stated in that depending on your perspective. [i]"...courageous enough to ask, namely, the actual truth of our condition before God.[/i]"

S
sermonindex

IRONMAN said this

We are to minister to others as our Lord leads. if it is a word of admonition, a prayer, giving of food and drink, clothing or whatever. We sometimes have to show the way to do things as we are led also.

ultimately it boils down to what God is seeking to do in that person's life and your role in that. if we seek God concerning this and follow after what He needs us to do then we'll have fully obeyed Him regaring the matter.

When you think this through, this is a very practical, simple definition...... well put, in my opinion.


I was going to say, and am encouraged now to do so, that prophecy is a much more ordinary everyday event under the New Covenant than it was up until John the Baptist; although, there is scripture to support that there was not only one prophet at a time, in the Old Testament.

Partly, this is because (as John points out, of Caiphas), that the High Priest and the king, from time to time, also fulfilled this role for the nation.

Some, then, had a more limited ministry, it appears, such as Simeon.


Returning to the present, what SI and its moderators are battling with, is the meaning of the term 'prophet', for today.

Personally, I think if we are to take the points made by LittleGift on p2, that it was Moses' aspiration that all may prophesy, and Paul says indeed all [i][b]may[/i][/b] prophesy, then the discussion is not so much about [i]who[/i] is a prophet, but, how does one discern a word from God which is for the whole church?

And, does one limit the term 'prophecy' to such words?

Or, does one accept that the speaking of the word given by the Spirit at the hour it is needed (either by and for oneself, or, for another), is also (in biblical terms) 'prophecy', but confined in its relevance and scope, to an individual?


I guess I'm concerned about Greg's proposed new rule, because I believe it would not [i]stop[/i] 'prophets' of either sort speaking God's word, and it has the potential to divert a huge amount of his time (and that of the other moderators) into a pursuit quite unnecessary for the Church on SI, and the Church world-wide.

God has given us His Spirit, for the express purpose of us as individuals being in a very special relationship with Him, whereby we call Him Father. We are now, as Christ, able to tune our ear to His individual word to each of us [u]all[/u] the time.

He is [u]always[/u] speaking.

We have to learn what is for us, to be held privately with Him as part of His ministry to our personal lives, and what should immediately be passed on by way of encouragement or admonition. (There is no contradiction there, if one understands the [i]comfort[/i] of the Holy Ghost to bring both the rod and the staff to bear in our lives.)


I would go so far as to say that [i]praying in the Spirit[/i] is also a form of prophecy, as I have found when having waited for God's word to come before I pray for a situation, often lays me open to very different prayers, according to His promptings.


Our sister Geraldine attends a church in the UK, where the leadership have given themselves titles from the verses in Ephesians 4, about ministries in the church. I see [i]this practice[/i] (which is unscriptural and carnal), as being at the root of what has caused confusion worldwide, on the matter of not only prophecy, but also apostleship.

Yet, in the New Testament, Paul is the one who gives himself the tag 'apostle' - which simply means 'sent one'. And John refers to himself as an elder, even though he was exiled from the church in practical everyday-living-together terms. I love these little glitches in our formulae, which undermine the rigidity human nature seeks to place on God's workings!

Norman Meeten said once 'Just when you think you've got your theology all in order, along comes God and upsets the applecart!'

So true.


So, when someone like David Wilkerson, who is primarily a preacher and an evangelist, gives a prophecy which becomes famous world-wide, why should anyone be swooning over his moving in a gift on the world stage, which he had not previously made so public? I'm not sure. But, it is this kind of idolisation of a ministry, which has contributed to the current dilemma on SI.


(Young) 1 Corinthians 12:31
and desire earnestly the better gifts; and yet a far excelling way do I shew to you:

We are not at all comfortable with the comparative, ('better') in churches today, but, it is scriptural.

(KJV) Matthew 25:15
And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

These servants were charged with making those talents work, so they gained more. It is my experience that the exercise of faith in the using of gifts, leads to new gifts being added to one's armoury. They are all for the glory of God, not for our own agrandisement, and they are certainly not to be consumed upon oneself.


There is a basic premise from Jesus undergirding them all 'Freely you have received, freely give!'

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

1 Cor 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


May the Lord bless us all with more wisdom. Amen.


R
Racward

if the bible talks about what god set in the church for our perfecting in ephesians 4 the i wonder why some people want to discourage us from submitting to the offices that god gave his people because i think we need all of the offices god set in the church because we are all a part of the body but we are also members in particular that need the other members i love you all even if we dont agree on some issues you are all loved by god and by me

B
bereangirl

Blessings all!

If I may share my perspective for a moment … I have come out of a church experience that emphasized the prophetic. I have witnessed the good, the bad and ugly of both the personal prophesy emphasis and more formal version whereby someone is deemed a “prophet”. I believe that there is an authentic expression of the prophetic however much of what is deemed prophetic today may not be. I also believe that to give an accurate word requires not only a prophetic gifting, but also the wisdom to first weigh it out and pray it out before giving it out. Once a word is out there in the public arena, it’s out there. There is no delete button. Your words have impacted and influenced someone. A true prophetic word will build up and edify and false one will bring someone into bondage. A mixture of what is of the Spirit and what is soulish will create confusion.

I am in agreement with the idea of submitting a prophetic word to a panel of brothers and sisters who will take the time to test the word before it goes out. It is wise not only for the hearer but for the giver also.

[b]1 Thes 5:20 – 21 “Do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.”[/b]

What we all need to keep in mind, in particular those of us with a prophetic gifting (myself included), is that we are all learning and growing in our walk. When someone gets a prophetic impression, word or dream and gives it out, the word given is invariably influenced by the one who gave it. For example, if I have a word for my church and I currently have grievances or an issue with some aspect of it, that may influence how I give the word and the flavour with which I give it. It takes maturity, wisdom, practice [i]and the input from others [/i]to mature in this gift. Ultimately a prophetic word should be given just as you hear it from the Lord. No more and no less. We need spiritual growth, experience and feedback to get to that place of clarity and accuracy.

It concerns me that there are some that have a prophetic gifting but are offended at the thought of having their prophesies examined before they are given out. I believe two errors may be at work here. One is spiritual pride and/or an immature zeal that says “I have a word from God. I know I do. I am not wrong. I need no correction.” What they may not be aware of is the mixture of the true word they have received from the Lord and their own “stuff” in their soul that is creating a mixture within their message. The other is the idea that the office of a New Testament prophet is the same as the office of an Old Testament prophet. The Old Testament prophet is speaking judgement to Israel. The New Testament prophet speaks edification to the church. Now hear me please…that does not mean that the prophetic words to the church today are to be fluffy nonsense. We do indeed need some strong words to cut through the haze of pop-culture Christianity. We also need to exercise discernment and take the time to weigh things against Scripture for the benefit of the whole body, the prophets included.

Sonja

I
IRONMAN

sis Dorcas
i was wondering why God had restrained me from responding to you until this very instant but i know now and praise Him for it. Indeed He has shown me what the prophetic is about, ministering to His people about His heart toward them, you said this however through which He showed me something else:

I was going to say, and am encouraged now to do so, that prophecy is a much more ordinary everyday event under the New Covenant than it was up until John the Baptist; although, there is scripture to support that there was not only one prophet at a time, in the Old Testament.

Yes indeed this is so true and i praise God for the beauty of fellowship in which He teaches us through eachother. i'd not thought about this aspect of it so much but God showed me the reason why things are different now concerning the prophetic: the presence of His HOly Spirit in us at all times in us. we know in the days of old that the Spirit of God was always active, however in this dispensation, He is the Comforter who remains with us (as Christ said) until Christ returns for us. perhaps we're not aware but, through Holy Spirit God is with us and so is His heart which is what prophecy is all about. Christ came to speak what the Father sent Him to speak and so Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy for this very reason, He spoke the heart of the Father to us men.

Partly, this is because (as John points out, of Caiphas), that the High Priest and the king, from time to time, also fulfilled this role for the nation.

but now we are called to be kings and priests...praise God!

Returning to the present, what SI and its moderators are battling with, is the meaning of the term 'prophet', for today.

to me the definition of what a prophet is in these days is no different than what it was in times past. i fear however that in the wrestling that we have forgotten that a prophet speaks the heart of God to His people and also that we ought to seek the heart of God and not respond reflexively to reject.

Personally, I think if we are to take the points made by LittleGift on p2, that it was Moses' aspiration that all may prophesy, and Paul says indeed all may prophesy, then the discussion is not so much about who is a prophet, but, how does one discern a word from God which is for the whole church?

this is it. i think we have a tendancy to have a certain expectation of what a prophet should be such that sometimes when we hear/read a word, which is said to be of God, we say "oh no, God couldn't possibly use you in that manner..." and we're not open to receiving...i fear that the same spirit which hindered God's people in the old days from hearing His prophets is with us today partly because as His people, we are guilty of much the same idolatries, fornications and so on.

Or, does one accept that the speaking of the word given by the Spirit at the hour it is needed (either by and for oneself, or, for another), is also (in biblical terms) 'prophecy', but confined in its relevance and scope, to an individual?

indeed i'm sure that some of Israel had no need to be afraid of the harsh words of the prophets because they were living as they ought to live. however i think that one can't ever repent too much or come to a place where repentance is no longer necessary.

Yet, in the New Testament, Paul is the one who gives himself the tag 'apostle' - which simply means 'sent one'. And John refers to himself as an elder, even though he was exiled from the church in practical everyday-living-together terms. I love these little glitches in our formulae, which undermine the rigidity human nature seeks to place on God's workings!

i think as we are the body, it would be good for us to know what our functions/offices/callings are to better serve. now there are those who lord it over the rest of the body and this is wrong and carnal. the idea behind some of us saying "i'm a prophet or apostle or both" is that the body may know what our function is, not to lord it over anyone. this is not a quest for prominence but for some is a realization and a coming to terms with one's calling, after all the evangelists, preachers and teachers can freely say what they are...then also to be a prophet or apostle is to be the most afflicted of His servants on this side.

We are not at all comfortable with the comparative, ('better') in churches today, but, it is scriptural

And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

indeed, which is why although the apostle and prophet are the least on this side, being the servants of all, they get the most reward in heaven. oh we will not all be equal in heaven, some will have more glory as they suffered more and did more for the kingdom than others.

These servants were charged with making those talents work, so they gained more. It is my experience that the exercise of faith in the using of gifts, leads to new gifts being added to one's armoury. They are all for the glory of God, not for our own agrandisement, and they are certainly not to be consumed upon oneself.

exactly!

D
dohzman

I've followed this thread at a distance but would like to add just one very important item---ummmmm----charateristic of a prophet/prophetess, Gapmanship or a standing in the gap. That must Precede any and all vocal communications at all times and is the very essence of all true prophets/prophetesses. The christian life is in its very nature a standing between heaven and earth, between God and unsaved man, in the church>>>between the Holiness of a jealous God and sleeping, lukewarm christianity, begging to allow one more season to pass before the owner of the fruit tree casts it down. And than laboring in the roots to make that tree bear fruit. Standing in the gap is one place where we all can participate, lack of fruit only occurs where there's a lack of one, one willing soul who will stand in the gap.

K
KingJimmy

Sonja,

A mostly good post, however, I feel the need to respond some points you made.


It takes maturity, wisdom, practice and the input from others to mature in this gift. Ultimately a prophetic word should be given just as you hear it from the Lord. No more and no less. We need spiritual growth, experience and feedback to get to that place of clarity and accuracy.

While I believe fully in modern day prophecy & prophets, and count myself amongst those in that calling, I must strongly disagree with the above quote. What you have just said while it is a commonly taught doctrine amongst many prophetic ministers today, has no scriptural basis whatsoever.

Prophetic ministry ultimately boils down to this: "I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him." (Deut 18:18) Whatever prophetic message a prophet bears God has put there in his very mouth. It is beating in his heart and is on the tip of his tongue. "Maturity" in the prophetic is not defined in how accurately one conveys the oracle of God. That is simply a matter of plain obedience, an obedience that God has enabled every prophet to perfectly carry out from day one of his ministry through the power of the Holy Spirit. If the prophet doesn't relay precisely what God has put in his mouth to say, it is because for whatever reason, they have chosen to disobey God. And for such, they need to repent.

As it is, there is no notion whatsoever in the Scriptures of one "growing" in their spiritual gifting. There is no notion whatsoever of a "mature" prophet verses an "immature" prophet. There are simply mature and immature Christians. And mature Christians are simply those saints who have grown in the knowledge of Christ and consistently apply that knowledge to their lives daily. Immature Christians are simply those saints who have a limited knowledge of Christ, and as a result, have less they can apply to their daily lives, but the little they do know, they do apply. Mature Christians have lives marked by the abundance of the fruit of the Spirit, whereas immature Christians are not as abundant, and still need more pruning.

If one were so inclined to press the issue, and say because we can talk of mature and immature Christians, we can thus talk of mature and immature prophets- then fine. But this is not in respect to growing in the gifting one has. For the gifting one has is perfect, just as James says: "Every good thing and every perfect gift is from above..." (James 1:17). If we want to talk about mature and immature prophets, then I would venture to say it simply has to do with the type of word such a prophet can bring.

A mature prophet can bring forth a word that is much more "mature" in content, whereas an immature prophet could not bring about such a mature word, because he himself as a Christian is not yet mature. As has been pointed out by many, prophets are not simply tape recorders who play back a message, but rather, they are the message in and of themselves. When they speak an oracle of God, they are speaking a message that is consistent with who they are as Christians. Thus, if any distinction can be made between mature and immature prophets, it is not to be found in the accuracy of their messages, but in the depth of those messages.


It concerns me that there are some that have a prophetic gifting but are offended at the thought of having their prophesies examined before they are given out.

According to 1 Cor 14, prophecies are to be examined only after they are given out. Anybody suggesting they first submit prophecies to a board of overseers for examination before allowing public broadcasting are operating out of a mindset that is not in line with the Scriptures. If Jesus Christ wishes to speak through a person via the gift of prophecy, He does not need to seek permission from others in order to do such. However, because of the humility of Christ within that prophet, they shouldn't object to their message being examined and tested by the body to see if it is indeed a message from Christ.

Since Jesus Christ is the head of the church, and He gives gifts to men as He wills, then any person being used in the gifting He has is free to operate in that gifting as He is led of the Spirit of God inside him. Those over us in the Lord are not filters or funnels by which that gifting is to find expression in the larger body. Those over us in the Lord are simply to oversee our lives and ministries, and should anything arise in either that is not in harmony with Christ, then they are to deal with that brother or sister to correct them and bring them back in line with Christ. And likewise, should they oversee us doing good, they are to encourage us abound all the more in what we are doing. But to require a prophet to first submit a word to them before they allow public broadcast of that word is beyond the sphere of authority Christ has given them, and is in error.

B
bereangirl

KingJimmy,

I agree that the whole root of the issue is immaturity.

Quote: (sorry I'm still figuring out the quote button :-))"Christ wishes to speak through a person via the gift of prophecy, He does not need to seek permission from others in order to do such. However, because of the humility of Christ within that prophet, they shouldn't object to their message being examined and tested by the body to see if it is indeed a message from Christ. "

So if it is not tested by a group of brothers and sisters first, but is just given out, how do we go about examining it afterwards in a church setting and doing that task with objectivity and maturity? If we can manage it, that would be wonderful. In my 18 years or so of being in charasmatic circles I have yet to see it done.

Somehow there needs to be a place for this review to happen and to happen in such a way as to be edifying to all. If your church has got the handle on this one, please share.

As I say, once a word is out, it's out there. A mature Christian could then filter out what is good but I'm concerned that a baby Christian maybe thrown for a loop. If the examination were to take place immediately following the word given, I would not have an issue with that. And the examination would also have to be done with maturity. Unfortunately I have not seen it done so far.

Sonja

R
roadsign

I love Greg and Mike B. They have put an unimaginable amount of effort into this site - countless hours and much prayer. And, I don’t wish to see them get burnt out and disillusioned. Now, I realize that they are young, and dedicated, and endowed with far more energy than I have. But, alas, they have limits.

Thankfully God has placed burn-out prevention formulas right in his word, PTL! This includes the various gifts, callings, abilities, or whatever. No one person needs burn out – not Greg, nor Mike, nor you, nor me, not your pastor, nor mine.

It seems like we Christians have a tendency to walk very close to the edge, feeling responsible for more than God gave us. Can anyone relate? The challenge for us all, (I’m not picking on our Mod’s) is to learn to trust God with HIS project - and I mean it, that’s a challenge!

Josef’s prophetic word really spoke to me personally- that is, the part about spiritual judgment on us NOW – when God dulls our spiritual sensitivities. I was personally convicted about the reality that God could stop speaking to me. He could actually let my ears grow deaf if I refused to listen to him long enough. Straying is very, very easy, and we don’t even know it’s happening. So since reading that post and considering God’s word on spiritual judgment, I have resolved to begin my day, before ANYTHING ELSE, to come into the presence of God with his Word and hear what he has to say to me. I write it in my journal, and I don’t close it until I have something to write. I must hear from him BEFORE I hear what any man has to say.

If we keep on putting our opinions or the voice of man in front of the line, then God will eventually stop enlightening us. And folks, that leaves us to fend on our own. “A people without understanding will come to ruin.” Hos. 4:14 I have seen ruin come to mission organizations, churches, forums, etc for this very reason: they do not discern the Spirit. We must hear from God continually, and heed his voice. (I’m giving myself a little sermon here.)

Regarding the concern of:

…. runaway things that can be produced so often here.

I am wondering: What ARE those runaway things? Is it false doctrines that could lead the saints astray? I don’t believe so, as there are more than enough checks and balances here to address any false teaching. Besides, trying to uproot ALL false doctrines or notions that cross our path is a sure formula for burnout. And who of has ALL the truth whereby we can detect error? And, really, is anyone, even our greatest preaching saints totally without error. Any of their teachings – even the correct teachings could be taken to extreme and land us smack dab in the center of a heretical tangent.

Or is it the potential conflicts that might arise? That, to me seems to be the bigger concern. That’s a valid concern, However, it is not necessarily the fault of the original poster, though he is easily the one who appears to be the culprit – and the one who “started it” Actually, since I have joined SI over 1 ½ years ago my impression has been that the ones who are combative are rarely the ones who post the original thread, but the ones who respond by attacking and kicking up a lot of dust rather than attempting to engage in a rational discussion. (They need to learn how)

The apostles were always the ones blamed when conflict as a result of their preaching. But God often turned it for good. BTW, if Jesus or the apostles had made conflict-avoidance their primary goal, they would never have healed anyone.

The SI folk remind me of my missionary family (in a past life). These are people eager to serve the Lord, zealous for truth, filled with thoughts and ideas and knowledge, forthright in the expression of their opinions, etc etc. We had similar issues there as here. But, I have to say, that the troubles were not always managed well. Stricter controls, in an attempt to sanitize the place had a way of backfiring. It tended to create an untrusting environment that felt too unsafe for vulnerability –(which fosters repentance).


“I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father,
may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation,
so that you may know him better.

I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened
in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you,
the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
and his incomparably great power for us who believe.”Eph. 1:17,18


Diane

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sermonindex


Sonja said

how do we go about examining it afterwards in a church setting and doing that task with objectivity and maturity?
In my experience of sitting in charismatic churches in the UK, where prophecy is part of the flow of the meeting, there is an expectation that those to whom God has spoken through it, will respond appropriately, either privately or publicly in prayer during that assembly. Sometimes many people respond. This process is something about the creative word in people's lives. God's word is always working, and the same word may provoke very different responses, depending on what [i][b]He[/b][/i] sent it forth to accomplish in those individual lives.

I am struck by your use of the word 'objectivity'. This is because I don't believe we are asked to be [i]objective[/i] in the sense you meant it. The standard by which we are to judge, is the witness of the Holy Spirit. It takes faith to prophesy, and, if a person is [i]manifestly[/i] not being prompted to speak by God, the content will be dead as a dodo. The Holy Spirit will not be able to cry Amen within anyone who knows Him. If anything, objectivity is itself a killer of the word, because it moves the whole premise for [i]judging[/i] it, off God and onto the human mind.

I'm saying here that a group of Christians who know God through the Spirit, are perfectly clear about what God has said to them through a word of prophecy, and that's all they need to retain, just as that is all the prophet needs to say.

If elders become agreed that a 'prophet' in their midst is [i]not[/i] speaking from God, then they can take steps to address this privately, in the first instance, and only address it publicly if the person persists in refusing correction and guidance.

Even so, an ordinary born again Christian is capable of [i]hearing[/i] God's voice to them personally, in the word given, without any direction at all from church leaders. If this were not so, how ever did they become a Christian in the first place? I think we need to have an attitude of trusting God, and listening to Him primarily, and others things such as the edification and growth of the Body, will naturally follow.


S
sermonindex


IRONMAN,

Thank you for your conversation. Glad we are moving on together.


KJ,

Good post, bro.


Diane,

You are ever thought-provoking and obliquely so. Amen.

I
IRONMAN

sis Sonja

So if it is not tested by a group of brothers and sisters first, but is just given out, how do we go about examining it afterwards in a church setting and doing that task with objectivity and maturity? If we can manage it, that would be wonderful. In my 18 years or so of being in charasmatic circles I have yet to see it done.

you said the above and i think you answered your question here:

As I say, once a word is out, it's out there. A mature Christian could then filter out what is good but I'm concerned that a baby Christian maybe thrown for a loop. If the examination were to take place immediately following the word given, I would not have an issue with that. And the examination would also have to be done with maturity. Unfortunately I have not seen it done so far.

now this is where the mature Christian ought to help the young Christian and where the young Christian ought to start exercising discernment. the word says the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets which is not to say that no prophetic word should be examined, they should be. however the prophets can bear witness to one another being kindred spirits i suppose, hence when i read bro Josef's post, it hit home for me and some others. i figure that in the examination of such words when they come out, we sharpen our discernment as we seek God. i don't think any of the prophets of old had to pass what God told them through a board before getting it out there but rather once it was out there, it was everyone's responsibility to try it and see if it indeed was from God. the same holds true today.

K
KingJimmy


So if it is not tested by a group of brothers and sisters first, but is just given out, how do we go about examining it afterwards in a church setting and doing that task with objectivity and maturity? If we can manage it, that would be wonderful. In my 18 years or so of being in charasmatic circles I have yet to see it done.

The same way you would if you were submitting it to a larger panel for review. You would simply give the word of the Lord as it came to you, and then each individual must decide for themselves if it is of the Lord. This can be done by a simple affirmative "amen." If the word is not of the Lord, it's rejection can be shown through simple silence (a lack of any affirmative "amen") or through another brother or sister in the congregation then standing up, as the Spirit leads them, to in some manner bring a word of correction that either addresses the prophet directly, or appeals to the audience who heard it, or both.

I've personally seen that when folks have said things in a church service before that simply wasn't in line with Scripture, a lack of any "amen" from the congregation can speak volumes. Most believers, even very young and immature ones have enough basic knowledge of God to tell if something is of Him or not, either through their knowledge of the Scriptures themselves, or simply through the inner witness of the Spirit.


As I say, once a word is out, it's out there. A mature Christian could then filter out what is good but I'm concerned that a baby Christian maybe thrown for a loop. If the examination were to take place immediately following the word given, I would not have an issue with that. And the examination would also have to be done with maturity. Unfortunately I have not seen it done so far.

Consider very strongly 1 Corinthians. Paul wrote his letter to a church that was by far, an immature bunch of believers. There were a few with some wisdom, but, by far, most were not. Yet even in the carnal Corinthian church, Paul encouraged the free exercise of the gifts by each member of the congregation. "You may all prophesy..." he said. He said "Let the prophets speak..." Paul didn't mind these immature believers sharing whatever gifts they had to express, nor did he worry about the potential "problems" that might happen should somebody open a can of worms. He encouraged immature believers to minister in their gifts, and and encouraged immature believers to discern whether something was of God or not. And frankly, to have some other sort of system setup whereby you can "protect" the congregation from something possibly harmful will actually produce saints that continue to remain immature. For Christian maturity can only happen when believers continually submit themselves to Christ, and exercise the gifts He has given them, and to exercise their own discernment as well.

And frankly, to do otherwise, we might as well revert to the dark ages, and print off a list of acceptable web sites that members can read. We should draft books that should be banned from Christian libraries. We should give a list of acceptable TV preachers. The list could go on and on.

This "wisdom" that is being encouraged simply is not of God. Not only is it illogical, but it is entirely without Scriptural support. Sadly, it is a normal thing we see in many circles today. But sadly, most of these decisions are made out of asking the wrong questions. "What if somebody stands up and says something stupid... What if somebody gets hurt by what is said... What if the people get offended and go to another church and take their money with them... What if people start to like what the prophet is saying more than the pastors... What if the prophet says something that contradicts and conflicts with what other ministers are saying..."

Yet the thing that is never asked: "What saith the Scriptures?" This should be our first question, but it mostly seems to be the last. Other more "practical" issues are put out first. We are guilty of asking the wrong questions, and as a result, we get wrong answers. The church should be shocked that many of the things it takes into deep consideration is something the early church didn't even think about. 1 Cor. 14 is a great snapshot of how the typical early church service was conducted. We should study it very closely.

P
philologos

the rule which I am going to add to the community rules is for the prophetic words to be sent to me and it will be prayed over by the moderator staff. And if it is approved the poster will be notified. I believe that if we posted every prophecy that is being written there would be such a influx of these "words" that it will muddle and confuse the saints towards what God is saying. The SermonIndex community is setup with rules and is somewhat of a model of a true community fellowship. I would therefore say that there should be respect towards some sort of God ordained leadership to allow God to work and speak to the people in this community.

Greg
This is an open letter/response to your posting to say publicly what I have often said to you privately; [b]God holds you and your moderators responsible for this site[/b] and you will be required to give an account of the way your handled your stewardship. People who cannot respect that fact ought not to be members of this 'community'. By all means let such come and read and benefit from the good things here freely but if they cannot submit to the authority that God has trusted you with they ought not to abuse the platform that sermonindex provides.

I know you will 'err' on the side of generosity in your judgements in this realm and I would encourage you to go ahead and implement the new pattern. I would go further, I would not only apply this to self-styled prophets but to teachers too. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that self-styled teachers too can abuse the platform of sermonindex.

If sermonindex were a physical platform and you three moderators had responsibility for it it would be easier to see where your responsibility lay. If someone began to teach heresy you would warn them and ultimately forbid them. If they dominated the platform and constantly droned on about their obsessions you would probably do the same. This would be unacceptable to some I know but in the physical setting they would just not come to 'your meetings', and that would be their choice. For the sake of the rest of the 'community' you would exercise your gentle authority seeking to ensure that all things were done decently and in order.

The readership and listenership of this site is worldwide, that is an awesome responsibility that you all carry, but you cannot abdicate from this responsibility. Be strong and of a good courage.

Sermonindex is not a church and can never be one. Real churches are real communities where people know one another and can temper each others oddities. Sermonindex has all the benefits and failings of the 'email' system; instant and almost anonymous response where you do not have to look into the eyes of the person you are addressing, and the opportunity to 'shoot from the hip' which causes so much inter personal damage. "Despise not prophesyings" was written to a local church with its own patterns of authority, commitment and conscious community. It is not 'despising prophecy' to request that international publishing of opinions be referred to those to whom God has trusted the ministry of Sermonindex. Sermonindex is publishing to the world, I don't see how anyone can object to some editorial input and guidance.

Go ahead and put down the guidelines. Say to us "this is the basis on which we gather in Sermonindex" you are welcome to join us on this basis. God bless you and "Aaron and Hur" and strengthen to continue this precious gift to the church of Jesus Christ.

L
loveroftruth

An Amen to the wisdom given by philologos. Wisdom of the Holy Spirit in order for the Holy Spirit to be recognized for who He is. "The Spirit of truth" as Jesus said.

S
sermonindex

Sermonindex is publishing to the world, I don't see how anyone can object to some editorial input and guidance.

Ron,

Thank you for your concise words of wisdom. I have to agree with all your points in your post and see all these "concerns" as very important. I do continue to trust the word that God gave me in regards to Him keeping the forums pure, holy, without blame and God honoring. God is able to keep these forums to be worthwhile and a "worthy" addition to the audio sermons on the website. May we all realize afresh that all these words written will be taken into account on that "great day" of judgement.

I really do desire to encourage a prophetic word to the communit at SermonIndex and do feel at this time the best way to faciliate this is to put it through the "moderator" staff.

P
philologos

I really do desire to encourage a prophetic word to the communit at SermonIndex and do feel at this time the best way to faciliate this is to put it through the "moderator" staff.

Know the 'prophet' before you receive his 'prophecy'. :-)
It is by their fruit that you will recognize them, not their prophecies. :-)

C
crsschk

Thank you Ron,

There is a word used in your admonishen that brings a humbling trembling;

[i]Responsibility[/i].

First to the Lord and then to all of us as 'we' attempt to navigate through these very often deep waters. The great attempt in forcing sheer honesty is everything in my mind and heart. From definitions to intentions to the many questions raised by way of testing [i]all[/i] things.

For as long as we have been at this here to nail down both the prophet and prophecy as to what is intended [i]now[/i] as it was [i]then[/i] and I am referring primarily to Paul's explanation for that is really the 'leaving off' point that we find ourselves, still the true defining is somewhat elusive ... or is it?

Rather then running this off a side trail for the moment wanted to make mention of something very important that was once again running through the prayers, even this morning ...

Authority. Being under it. As far as I am concerned there are those here that will not be named who demonstrate an authority that is understood spiritually. They are those who submission is axiomatic as it is automatic ... Bluntly, they know more. Somewhere along this order that God develops we all fit. Jostling for position is certainly "out of order" just as failure to recognize by way of humbling ourselves to that which is in evidence of wisdom would be.

Seems strange to say but this may be one of those rare instances where a suspension of too much thinking is ... better. Am very appreciative of the seemingly better definitions of separating the "title" from the "office", not only in the matter at hand, (prophet\\prophecy) but even in these areas of authority, responsibility and in combination, accountability. One often being a seeking after (title) the other an outworking (office).

That too much dissection, qualifying, defending and even explanation must be brought to bear seems quite antithetical to, well the very simplicity of;

[i]It is by their fruit that you will recognize them, not their prophecies.[/i]

Or "know" them.

All this to just belay any misunderstanding of where your own servants SI community are coming from, if I may be so bold as to include my brothers here. Perhaps it is better summarized in a few passages;

[i]And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority ...[/i]
Mat 8:5-9

[i]And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.[/i] 1Co 4:6

There is indeed a great responsibility that is shared across the board in giving place to each other and there is another that finds us 'moderators' often in another realm altogether.

I see these other unnamed saints placed here as guardians and as moderators of the 'moderators'. Greg is exacting I believe in this;

I do continue to trust the word that God gave me in regards to Him keeping the forums pure, holy, without blame and God honoring. God is able to keep these forums to be worthwhile and a "worthy" addition to the audio sermons on the website.

"[i]God is able to keep[/i]"

And He has, believe me He has. This whole thing would have fell apart years ago.

K
KingJimmy


I would go further, I would not only apply this to self-styled prophets but to teachers too. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that self-styled teachers too can abuse the platform of sermonindex.

Indeed, if you are going to be consistent, be such. Why folks who take on prophetic tones with their words are being singled out, over that of other folks, I don't understand either. For that matter, why not just make everything require approval first? Why simply that which claims to, or alludes to, being prophetic?


Also, why not just delete those posts that are made claiming to be prophetic, yet clearly are not, after they have been made known? As it is, even with the new rule, those who want to do such are going to do it anyway. And you will have to go and deal with those threads in previously discussed ways. So, I'm really scratching my head here, why even bother requiring such a thing anyway?

S
sermonindex


Re: Responsibility

philologos said

This is an open letter/response to your posting to say publicly what I have often said to you privately; God holds you and your moderators responsible for this site and you will be required to give an account of the way your handled your stewardship. People who cannot respect that fact ought not to be members of this 'community'. By all means let such come and read and benefit from the good things here freely but if they cannot submit to the authority that God has trusted you with they ought not to abuse the platform that sermonindex provides...

... [b]Sermonindex is not a church[/b] [i]and can never be one[/i]. Real churches are real communities where people know one another and can temper each others oddities.

(emphases mine)

Dear Ron,

Please do not interpret my questions, coming as they do after KJ's post, as anything more than a request for clarification.

Sermonindex may well not be 'a church' of itself, but, I believe those of us who know the Lord, recognise the authority He has given Greg first in the giving of his vision, and secondly in the fulfilment of it in the measure we currently enjoy.

If I'm not mistaken, this vision is to return hearts and lives to apolstolic Christianity [u]in practice[/u], and, to some extent at least, this is what is happening to those lives which have been impacted by sermons and discussions here - some of whose lives have [i]no other fellowship[/i].

So, I am not disputing that SI is not a church, but, I am wondering, if 'it can never be' is purely on the basis of the lack of a local assembly of SI participants?

And, [i][b]if[/i][/b] SI 'is not a church and can never be' on what basis (in providing the work of [i]other[/i] pastors and teachers) do the moderators have to fear the judgment of God over their stewardship, seeing they are, therefore [i]not elders[/i]?

I'm really not trying to mix metaphors or be obtuse, but to understand if you are saying they [i]are elders[/i] but [i]not[/i] of 'a church'?

Also, I would like to understand why they are any [i]more[/i] responsible for what is posted here in the forums, than the posters themselves?

I hope it is clear that I [i]do[/i] accept the need for moderators. But, if they / these are not a function of 'church', then, why will they have to give any more account of their stewardship of God's gifts to them, than any other who has received a ministry from Him?

C
Christisking

Since Jesus Christ is the head of the church, and He gives gifts to men as He wills, then any person being used in the gifting He has is free to operate in that gifting as He is led of the Spirit of God inside him. Those over us in the Lord are not filters or funnels by which that gifting is to find expression in the larger body. Those over us in the Lord are simply to oversee our lives and ministries, and should anything arise in either that is not in harmony with Christ, then they are to deal with that brother or sister to correct them and bring them back in line with Christ. And likewise, should they oversee us doing good, they are to encourage us abound all the more in what we are doing. But [b]to require a prophet to first submit a word to them before they allow public broadcast of that word is beyond the sphere of authority Christ has given them, and is in error.[/b]

You are correct KingJimmy and though Philogos and Greg and others may sound flowery in language, do you notice they have not one single Scripture top back up what they say???


Picture of a Prophet
by Leonard Ravenhill

"The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men.
Years back, Dr. Gregory Mantle was right when he said, “No man can be fully accepted until he is totally rejected.” The prophet of the Lord is aware of both these experiences. They are his “brand name.”

The group, challenged by the prophet because they are smug and comfortably insulated from a perishing world in their warm but untested theology, is not likely to vote him “Man of the Year” when he refers to them as habituates of the synagogue of Satan!

The prophet comes to set up that which is upset. His work is to call into line those who are out of line! He is unpopular because he opposes the popular in morality and spirituality. In a day of faceless politicians and voiceless preachers, there is not a more urgent national need than that we cry to God for a prophet! The function of the prophet, as Austin Sparks once said, “has almost always been that of recovery.”

The prophet is God’s detective seeking for a lost treasure. The degree of his effectiveness is determined by his measure of unpopularity.

He does not know compromise.
He has no price tags.
He is totally “otherworldly.”
He is unquestionably controversial and unpardonably hostile.
He marches to another drummer!
He breathes the rarefied air of inspiration.
He is a “seer” who comes to lead the blind.
He lives in the heights of God and comes into the valley with a “thus saith the Lord.”
He shares some of the foreknowledge of God and so is aware of impending judgment.
He lives in “splendid isolation.”
He is forthright and outright, but claims not birthright.
His message is “repent, be reconciled to God or else . . . !”
His prophecies are parried.
His truth brings torment, but his voice is never void.
He is the villain of today and the hero of tomorrow.
He is excommunicated while alive and exalted when dead!
He is dishonored with epithets when breathing and honored with epitaphs when dead.
He is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but few “make the grade” in his class.
He is friendless while living and famous when dead.
He is against the establishment in ministry, then he is established as a saint by posterity.
He eats daily the bread of affliction while he ministers, but he feeds the Bread of Life to those who listen.
He walks before men for days but has walked before God for years.
He is a scourge to the nation before he is scourged by the nation.
He announces, pronounces, and denounces!
He has a heart like a volcano and his words are as fire.
He talks to men about God.
He carries the lamp of truth amongst heretics while he is lampooned by men.
He faces God before he faces men, but he is self-effacing.
He hides with God in the secret place, but he has nothing to hide in the marketplace.
He is naturally sensitive but supernaturally spiritual.
He has passion, purpose and pugnacity.
He is ordained of God but disdained by men.

Our national need at this hour is not that the dollar recovers its strength, or that we find the answer to the ecology problem. We need a God-sent prophet!

I am bombarded with talk or letters about the coming shortages in our national life: bread, fuel, and energy. I read between the lines from people not practiced in scaring folk. They feel that the “seven years of plenty” are over for us. The “seven years of famine” are ahead. But the greatest famine of all in this nation at this given moment is a famine of the hearing of the Word of God (Amos 8:11).

Millions have been spent on evangelism in the last twenty-five years. Hundreds of gospel messages streak through the air over the nation every day. Crusades have been held; healing meetings have made a vital contribution. “Come-outers” have “come out” and settled, too, without a nation-shaking revival. Organizers we have. Skilled preachers abound. Multi-million dollar Christian organizations straddle the nation. BUT where, oh where, is the prophet? Where are the incandescent men fresh from the holy place? Where is the Moses to plead in fasting before the holiness of the Lord for our moldy morality, our political perfidy, and sour and sick spirituality?

God’s men are in hiding until the day of their showing forth. They will come. The prophet is violated during his ministry, but he is vindicated by history.

There is a terrible vacuum in evangelical Christianity today. The missing person in our ranks is the prophet, the man with a terrible earnestness, the man totally otherworldly. He is the man rejected by other men, even other good men, because they consider him too austere, too severely committed, too negative and unsociable.

Let him be as plain as John the Baptist.
Let him for a season be a voice crying in the wilderness of modern theology and stagnant “churchianity.”
Let him be as selfless as Paul the apostle.
Let him, too, say and live, “This ONE thing I do.”
Let him reject ecclesiastical favors.
Let him be self-abasing, nonself-seeking, nonself-projecting, nonself-righteous, nonself-glorying, nonself-promoting.
Let him say nothing that will draw men to himself but only that which will move men to God.
Let him come daily from the throne room of a holy God, the place where he has received the order of the day.
Let him, under God, unstop the ears of the millions who are deaf through the clatter of shekels milked from the hour of material mesmerism.
Let him cry with a voice this century has not heard because he has seen a vision no man in this century has seen.
God send us this Moses to lead us from the wilderness of crass materialism, where the rattlesnakes of lust bite us and where the enlightened men, totally blind spiritually, lead us to an ever-nearing Armageddon.
God have mercy! Send us prophets! – By: Leonard Ravenhill end of article”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let the words of Leonard Ravenhill speak to your heart and seek deep into your mind – we love Leonard and his words and celebrate his messages on this site, but the real question is “can we put them to practice and take them to heart when they smack our own face???”

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God have mercy! Send us prophets!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


[b]“What if” God answers Leonard’s heart cries and rise up such men of the George Fox ilk? What would we do? Would we delete their posts? Would we kick them off the forum? Would we require them to submit their words for approval? Would we stone them for being “too harsh” or “too controversial”? Would we label him as having a rebellious spirit? Would we even recognize them or would we reject and vilify them? We say “we would never stone the prophets” but what will we do when and if they really come? These are important questions my friends and I hope and pray with dear Leonard that someday we will find the answer for my heart cries out with Leonard – GOD HAVE MERCY! SEND US PROPHETS!

Can you imagine a prophet submitting the word the Lord gives him to the “leaders” for approval – what would George Fox have to say about this? What did he have to say about this? What you suggest Greg, is the same kind of un-scriptural stuff that the institutional system tries to pull – “submit your word to the leadership for approval” – it is nothing more then a spirit of control and ANTI-scriptural. (If I am wrong – please show in Scripture where prophecy is submitted to leadership for approval and then spoken??? Isaiah – Jeremiah – Ezekiel – Amos – New Testament??????) It is not an issue of order but rather a spirit of control and we SHOULD rebel against such ANTI-scriptural and evil spirits with all our might – never are we told in Scripture to submit to spirits of control. I believe the same spirit of control out of which Greg speaks quenches the Holy Spirit as much if not more then any other spirit in the enemy’s camp. If this is the type of leadership and control that your fellowship lords over you then I suggest you run for your life and if this is the spirit you have picked up at “cemetery” or Bible college then you need to repent! Can you imagine Paul saying to the Corinthian church, “submit all of your prophesies to me for my approval and I will let you know what ones are suitable to be spoken in front of the saints”? Never! Paul knew better than to do this, and we should too.

To anyone who receives a prophetic word from the Lord – It would be very dangerous for you to submit to such spirits of control as Greg suggests – I would rather highly suggest that you speak the word the Lord gives you after much prayer and let the leaders respond as they so choose and answer to the Lord for their response – your job is to speak what the Lord tells you to speak where and when He tells you to speak it. I can assure you that any prophet of the kind that Ravenhill cries out to the Lord for above would NEVER submit the word the Lord gave them to leadership for approval. What will you do Greg if the Lord answers Leonard’s heart cries and God does raise up such men and they visit your forum??? Would you delete their words of correction – would you even know them if you saw them???[/b]

I speak only out of love and concern and only post this after much prayer. Please take this to heart and ask your self “What If?” before you make any decision to post in response or delete this heart felt word of correction. Please listen to this sermon by Art Katz lest you come against Biblical correction posted out of love and concern.

“What If?” by Art Katz -

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=7146

Description: Art raises the questions that few are courageous enough to ask, namely, the actual truth of our condition before God. Do we see ourselves as God sees us or are we satisfied with our own subjective assessment of ourselves? And where does that leave us if we prefer the latter?

Greg you seemed to have either missed these questions in my previous post, or in your failure to answer them with Scripture admit you have no Scriptural basis for your rhetoric. You say we need men who will cry aloud and spare not, but only if they submit their word to the "God ordained" prophetic filters first. This is a bit hypocritical and silly to say the least, don't you think?

P
philologos

I hope it is clear that I do accept the need for moderators. But, if they / these are not a function of 'church', then, why will they have to give any more account of their stewardship of God's gifts to them, than any other who has received a ministry from Him?

Simply because they have provided the platform. Sermonindex would not exist for good or evil without them. We are always responsible for what we create. Although this a public forum in the sense of members being able to contribute it is still in the hands of Greg to pull the plug. This is Greg Gordon's website, whatever we may call it.

If you invite me into your home you must accept some responsibility for what I do while I am there and I must give due respect to the owner of the home into which I have been invited. We are here as Greg's guests and he, and those who God has gathered to him, must accept some responsibility for what happens here. There can be no true responsibility without true authority, otherwise it is just 'blameability'. He is not only entitled, he is honour bound, to give some guidance as to how we are to behave in his house.

Greg is not of a spirit to rule harshly but that is all the more reason to listen carefully to what he says. To whom much is given much will be required. To whom Sermonindex was given, to him will be required a full account of what was 'given' to him. I must share responsibility for my contributions but I will not have to give an account of Sermonindex. (I have my own website that I will have to give an account of!)

P
philologos

But to require a prophet to first submit a word to them before they allow public broadcast of that word is beyond the sphere of authority Christ has given them, and is in error.

You speak of 'allowing' but this site operates because Greg pays the bills and if Greg publishes false prophecies by paying the bills he will have to give an account.

I am not talking about gagging the prophet. Let him create his own website and prophesy as much as he likes, but to require Greg to publish error is unreasonable.

K
KingJimmy


You are correct KingJimmy and though Philogos and Greg and others may sound flowery in language, do you notice they have not one single Scripture top back up what they say??

Sadly, the Scriptures tend to take a back burner when it comes to areas of orthopraxy (right practice) within the church and its various ministries. This is especially true when it comes to prophetic things. It has been my experience that within the prophetic movement itself, there is very little to support was is done in the name of the prophetic.

Such as those who say that a prophet can "grow" in their gifting to hear God more "clearly" and as a result, prophesy more "accurately." Never-mind there is no Scriptural support for such a notion. But strangely enough, there are no shortages of books, conferences, and teachings that repeat this time and time again. The same goes for setting up various hoops that prophets are supposed to jump through before they give out a word. Once again, entirely without Scriptural support, yet very widely practiced.

Ultimately these hoops are setup for the purpose of creating some sort of "security." There is this great fear today that somebody somewhere is going to stand up and say something stupid. Something whereby a brother or sister gets hurt, falls away from the faith, or moves on to another church. By creating some extra-biblical system of checks & balances, it is believed we can minimize any potential nuclear fall-out. But you see, such is a system built upon a spirit of fear, and not the word of the Lord. It ultimately is saying that our Great Shepherd is not enough to protect people from harm, and that something and somebody other than Jesus is needed to deal with this stuff. This is system ultimately undermines the security that Christ gives us. No, such is likely to never be admitted to, but such is [b]indeed[/b] the case.

This is something the church of Jesus Christ desperately needs today: The Lord is my Shepherd!

K
KingJimmy


You speak of 'allowing' but this site operates because Greg pays the bills and if Greg publishes false prophecies by paying the bills he will have to give an account.

I am not talking about gagging the prophet. Let him create his own website and prophesy as much as he likes, but to require Greg to publish error is unreasonable.

Greg is not guilty of "publishing" false prophecies if somebody merely logs onto the forum and posts it. The only person guilty of publishing it is the false prophet. Just because an avenue was made by which he could do this does not make Greg guilty. Greg only becomes guilty of it if he endorses it. Just because you made it possible for somebody to do something stupid doesn't make you guilty of their stupidity.

All that needs to be done if a false prophet should arise is correction be offered to contradict his prophecy, and if it continues on, then to merely not allow the person back into the forum. I'm sure folks get banned from this site every now and then, so, why not simply do that?

C
crsschk

You are correct KingJimmy and though Philogos and Greg and others may sound flowery in language, do you notice they have not one single Scripture top back up what they say??

I am taking a bit of umbrage at this insinuation, my ... Should it be all that difficult to ascertain that this is pertaining to a "[i]Thus sayeth the Lord[/i]" style "prophecy" that is too often bandied about here? Unless I am completely mistaken the idea is more along these lines and really much farther from some sort of back room 'testing center'. I think some of you are pulling this all out of proportion, making accusations that are unwarranted. This has nothing to do with fear, extra-biblical or scriptural lacking evidence ... Find that quite amazing
ultimately these hoops are setup for the purpose of creating some sort of "security."
It ultimately is saying that our Great Shepherd is not enough to protect people from harm, and that something and somebody other than Jesus is needed to deal with this stuff. This is system ultimately undermines the security that Christ gives us. No, such is likely to never be admitted to, but such is indeed the case.

You cannot be serious. Do you realize what kind of an accusation that is? To those who are depending on Him for everything, especially as it pertains here...

My goodness, you would think the amount of patience and forebearing that allows so much to flow through here feely would be enough to give the benefit of the doubt.

K
KingJimmy


Should it be all that difficult to ascertain that this is pertaining to a "Thus sayeth the Lord" style "prophecy" that is too often bandied about here? Unless I am completely mistaken the idea is more along these lines and really much farther from some sort of back room 'testing center'.

Indeed, it is my understanding that the rule will generally only apply to those who are tossing around "thus saith's." And that more generalized prophetic words, such as how Jesus often spoke, or how Art Katz speaks, will not be required to go through the filtering system.


This has nothing to do with fear,

It has everything to do with fear. We can toss in words like responsibility too, and no doubt, such things are also factored in. But ultimately it boils down to a fear that somebody will say something stupid in the name of God, and that will ultimately impact another person's life, possibly in the negative. Otherwise, why do it? When I say fear, I don't think Greg is worried about those who help finance this ministry jumping ship. Though, in most the typical church settings so far as I have seen, this seems to be the number one pastoral worry.


You cannot be serious. Do you realize what kind of an accusation that is? To those who are depending on Him for everything, especially as it pertains here...

I don't doubt that many here are depending on Him, so don't please misunderstand what I'm saying as applying to an individual in all matters of life. But, as far as depending on Christ to be the Shepherd of His sheep, and that should something damaging ultimately get out amongst them, Christ will protect the sheep from the wolves. And because of such, we don't have to worry somebody saying something stupid either here on SI or in our local assemblies. For ultimately, Christ has it under control.

P
philologos

Also, why not just delete those posts that are made claiming to be prophetic, yet clearly are not, after they have been made known? As it is, even with the new rule, those who want to do such are going to do it anyway. And you will have to go and deal with those threads in previously discussed ways. So, I'm really scratching my head here, why even bother requiring such a thing anyway?

But there is a difference between the prophetic and teaching. Teaching is objectively quantifiable by means of the scripture. The prophetic is not quantifiable other than subjectively by the hearer. With teaching we can say 'what saith the scripture?' with the prophetic we are reduced to saying 'how do you feel about this'? With teaching we can have an open forum as long as the teacher will engage in the forum. It is when the teacher uses the forum as a pulpit with long posts that simply represent his own obsession that discussion becomes almost meaningless.

I am not opposed to prophesy. I have some experience in that area. I believe passionately in prophetic utterance in the local church. The phenomena of a website and forum is quite different to anything we can see modelled in the scripture. It is neither church nor college of prophets. The prophets moved among their peers and were answerable to them. This can be accomplished in the local assembly or when prophets travel together but the phenomena we have on websites is the lone-star prophet who is answerable to no one and whose utterances cannot be judged in any intelligent manner.

Can the 'prophecy' be discussed of a forum? The only comment that we can make is 'I have a witness' or 'I don't have a witness'. The 'despise not prophesyings' was directed to a community of people who were accountable to each other. The kind of 'thus saith the Lord prophesy' that we have had on this site is irresponsible. This is why I think it right that the moderators be given the role of deciding what appears here purporting to be prophetic. I am not talking about the preacher-prophet of the calibre of Tozer or Ravenhill; they were men whose lives had earned the right to be heard. These men in any case did not give specific predictive prophesy but rather were men who discerned the times (1Chr 12:32) and spoke of their knowledge of God and his ways.

P
philologos

The only person guilty of publishing it is the false prophet. Just because an avenue was made by which he could do this does not make Greg guilty. Greg only becomes guilty of it if he endorses it. Just because you made it possible for somebody to do something stupid doesn't make you guilty of their stupidity.

Am I my brothers' keeper? If I allow the continual abuse of a platform that I have created surely I am accountable. I am guilty of exposing my brother to temptation.

All that needs to be done if a false prophet should arise is correction be offered to contradict his prophecy, and if it continues on, then to merely not allow the person back into the forum. I'm sure folks get banned from this site every now and then, so, why not simply do that?

I disagree for all the reasons stated in the last few posts and because there are vulnerable souls who use these forums. Are you in favour of any kind of narcotics laws? I would be surprised if you were not. I am not talking prohibition but just responsible stewardship. I have no doubt that there are tender souls who ventured into these forums and have been offended by the claims of self-styled prophets. We have a duty of care to the church of God and Greg has a duty of care for what appears on Sermonindex. If people wilfully defy his counsel they ought to be removed from the community but I would advise prevention rather than cure.

S
sermonindex


crsschk wrote:
You are correct KingJimmy and though Philogos and Greg and others may sound flowery in language, do you notice they have not one single Scripture to back up what they say??

I am taking a bit of umbrage at this insinuation, my ... Should it be all that difficult to ascertain that this is pertaining to a "[i]Thus sayeth the Lord[/i]" style "prophecy" that is too often bandied about here? Unless I am completely mistaken the idea is more along these lines and really much farther from some sort of back room 'testing center'. I think some of you are pulling this all out of proportion, making accusations that are unwarranted. This has nothing to do with fear, extra-biblical or scriptural lacking evidence ... Find that quite amazing
ultimately these hoops are setup for the purpose of creating some sort of "security."
It ultimately is saying that our Great Shepherd is not enough to protect people from harm, and that something and somebody other than Jesus is needed to deal with this stuff. This is system ultimately undermines the security that Christ gives us. No, such is likely to never be admitted to, but such is indeed the case.

You cannot be serious. Do you realize what kind of an accusation that is? To those who are depending on Him for everything, especially as it pertains here...

My goodness, you would think the amount of patience and forebearing that allows so much to flow through here feely would be enough to give the benefit of the doubt.


[b]I'm a bit new to this, and not sure yet who's who, but the rantings against Greg, and against the concept of the moderators having a measure of control over the content of this forum, seem out of proportion indeed!

Because someone doesn't always quote from the written Word, does NOT necessarily mean his words and the spirit behind what he says is unscriptural!

There are relevant Scriptures - about the right use and discernment of prophecy - which could be quoted if it is insisted upon...

And there are certainly relevant scriptures about these kinds of accuasations…

For example: 1Timothy 5:1
Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father...
The word translated "entreat" (KJV) is the same word as "paraclete" (also used of the Holy Spirit), meaning "one called to stand alongside".

OK, Greg and the other moderators may not be official "elders" as in a local church, but I think that's irrelevant because "elder" could also mean someone who is older in years or in experience, or both. Which the moderators certainly ought to be!

And I haven’t so far seen any evidence that they are likely to start imposing too-rigid control on "prophets".

Instead, I get the impression that prophecies would only be blocked if they are so obviously not of God as to be of an actual antichrist spirit. The merely human wanderings that are sometimes claimed as prophecy can be safely corrected or ignored by the rest of us, and perhaps give us practice in discernment :)

Therefore Greg and the moderators should be respected according to 1Thess 5:12 following:
"12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you ; 13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves..."

That “labour” includes other work besides that of official elders. Paul said "be followers of me as I am of Christ". So, as they continue to follow the Lord, leaders should be at least listened to and respected - even when they do make mistakes! It doesn't mean they are always right, or should be slavishly obeyed.

Do you really fear that the leaders of this forum are likely (in the foreseeable future) to become heresy hunters, or block any but a narrow band of prophecies that they happen to agree with?

Jeannette

[/b]

D
dohzman

I wanted to add something to what Bro. Ron B. Has written. In light of the amazing amount of exposure this site seems to get I have watched many come here and promote thier selves, thier writtings, thier websites, thier....(fill in the blanks)....etc. It would seem to me that if someone came into my local church and did the same without any history at all,(and some have tried), we would sit them down and have a talk with them (and we have had to do just that), in such cases they seldom stay.
Next, when I see New Thread Topics, I personally like to know as much about that person as possible, when a person takes it upon themselves,( or being lead by the Holy Spirit, as most say they are), they shouldn't be timid about who they are in real life. I see this too as self promotion even though most won't identify themselves. I believe this would be much like walking into a church bldg. and walking up to the pulpit and just start teaching with no personal history. This too is wrong. If a person is too ashamed to identify themselves in thier profiles at least in part than they really shouldn't be starting a "New Thread" . I believe this is just common sense ethics.

I hope that I haven't overstepped any boundries in this post but I offer it as something for all to consider.

S
sermonindex

Greetings,

I believe Patrick (Christisking) and KingJimmy are totally right. Since when is the prophetic voice designed to be "filtered" before it can be uttered/written? This is the same spirit of control we find in most of the churches today - the pastor becomes the filter of God's voice and the prophets must go through him to speak to the people. This is not only wrong, it is against clear and sound scripture! I have seen places where this exact thing has been put in place, and whenever a hard or sharp prophetic word is spoken to the pastor, he puts a stop to it and forbids it from being spoken to the congregation to keep it from offending them. This is very dangerous in light of the judgment seat.

Has anyone ever read the biography of George Fox?

I don't understand why if something false is posted, it cannot simply be deleted, just like anything else? Are we not supposed to test and weigh all things, whether prophetic words, teachings, exhortations, or whatever they may be? Why just the prophetic?

The objection may be: "because there is LOTS of false prophetic and we don't want that to get spread through here." I say in return: "Is there not also lots of false teaching? Lots of false preaching?" Just because there is false doesn't mean we should discard or segregate against the true.

I am wondering what the conditions are upon which this filtering system needs to be subjected to.

What happens if one moderator thinks it's true and the other thinks it's false?

What would qualify as a "prophetic" word? On what basis are we to determine whether or not a word is "prophetic" and needs to be submitted to the moderators for approval?

Is it only something that predicts the future?

How about something that is sharp and pointy and sees through the mist of religious speculation to pronounce the heart of God upon a subject?

Or is it something that is simply controversial and against the main stream?

What about something that is prophetic teaching, such as Art Katz commonly does?

What exactly are the characteristics that determine whether a word or post needs to be submitted?

How about a prophetic word of the past that has already come true?

What about a prophetic word by one of the main speakers of sermonindex, such as Dave Wilkerson?

What about a widely accepted prophetic word that is not by one of the main speakers of sermonindex?

What about words and teachings in general by those who claim they are prophets, even if the word itself is not prophetic?

I am not trying to cause trouble, just to simply get this clarified. I respect Greg's ministry here and he ultimately does have the final say even if I disagree with it, but I would really like to know the answers to these questions if someone would be so kind as to inform me. If I were Greg (and I am not, nor am I trying to tell him what to do), but if I were, I would not DARE to try to be the filter for God's prophetic voice on this forum for fear of erring. Even though I have operated in the prophetic in the past, I know I can be very wrong sometimes if I go by my own judgment and not the Lord's and there may just come along a word that I don't like and would like to silence when I haven't heard from God. I would like the saints themselves to weigh it under such a situation. We need each other to keep each other in line.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone.

Patrick, I would like to share some things concerning what you wrote of brother Greg,


"You say we need men who will cry aloud and spare not, but only if they submit their word to the "God ordained" prophetic filters first. This is a bit hypocritical and silly to say the least, don't you think?"


I remember earlier posting a verse which stood out to me then and maybe it is appropriate now also. It is where the Apostle Paul says


[i] But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.[/i]

I thought it was appropriate becuase it seems to express the Apostle's attitude towards having his ministry or maybe even his words judged, as in his second letter to those at Corinth he says...[i] ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me[/i]


Well, whatever we may make of that, doesn't the scripture also say


[i]Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.[/i]


Well, one might say, yes, so long as what they say is Biblical. Alright, but then is what Greg has suggested [b]not[/b] Biblical, that is, does it go [b]against[/b] the teaching of scripture? Well, the scripture does say

[i] Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge[/i]

So, here is some control which the Apostle sets forth? And since it is not possible to conform to this in this environment, is it unreasonable that this measure should be taken by Greg and the other moderators, who oversee this site? It does seem too that they already are doing this by screening the content of the site in general.


Since we are in such a unique environment here, wouldn't it be more agreeable to peace between us all to allow the moderators to excericse their discretion in this? If maybe for no other reason than, as the Revised version says


[i]Love does not insist on its own way[/i]


May wisdom be given to us all in this.

Thanks for letting me share,


Chris

P
PaulWest

I back Greg's decision 100%. The last thing anyone wants is a cyberspiritual Korah-Dathan-Abiram rebellion. The prophetic is different than sharing testimonies and posting hymns and current news events and classic sermons. Brother Greg and [i]his[/i] moderators put here by God have a pastoral right to inspect and prove the spirits [i]before[/i] they are put forth to impact the minds visiting these forums.

I remember a Ravenhill interview where he talked about how during the old street meetings in England, that if anyone had a word to say from the soap box they were to come first to Ravenhill so he could judge the testimony. Well, the same should apply here, and if a "prophet" wishes to contest Greg's prudence, he is, in fact, in rebellion to God's authority and actually not a true prophet at all. Nothing a proud man says is worth hearing anyhow, and he certainly has no right, I believe, to speak when his heart is in such an ungodly condition.

Greg, I believe you're on the right track. Keep focusing on Jesus and He'll bring you through all this. There are some Joshua-Caleb brothers here wise enough in the Lord to uphold you, and I am confident that you will continue to do the right thing in Christ.

Brother Paul

C
Christinyou

Is this not the test of all prophecy?

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Prophecy started in this book in Genesis and Jesus says it ends in Revelations. We are all prophets by the Only True Prophet that is in us.
There are tests for all things. We are told to test all things. Why? Jesus said, "He had things to reveal to us that even the Apostles could not receive yet." The revelation of Christ to Paul brought most of these things to light, which were call mysteries. Husband and wife, Christ in you the hope of Glory, Incorruptable Seed, Birthing of Christ in the believer, etc. If there are any left they will come through the Prophetic Word given to and by the Holy Spirit which will teach us anything else we need to know. That seems to be all we need to know.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

Phl 2:21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jhn 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Who is this Great Prophet?

So we must by the Holy Spirit and The Word Himself and the written Word prove all things, that includes prophecy. How are they to be tested? By the Prophets that are in the Body of Christ, if the prophecy adds or takes away from Christ, it is self seeking.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This includes Prophecy. Also...

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Phl 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Phl 2:21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,

If any prophet is not proovable by all in the Body and consists only by his own intentions, something is wrong. A prophet should be glad to be tested that all might benefit in the Body of Christ for its building up into Christ Jesus that all might grow.

Any prophecy outside of Christ is false. Test away gentleman, it is your gift and responsibility to protect the flock of God.

Thank you and may God bless you in controling of prophecy in the Church His Body, that Is Jesus Christ, that we might know Him, as Paul by all he was by the Christ in Him, "to know Him more".

In Christ: Phillip

K
KingJimmy

Well, it appears this thread is growing quite big, and I think I've said all I possibly can on this particular subject matter. I probably should have said a little less. I don't think too much more can be said without simply repeating what has already been said.

I'll bow out the discussion and simply say this. I have given it much thought this afternoon, and conclude that while I don't believe it is exactly proper, that should I personally get a "thus saith the Lord" type message to give on this forum, I will pass it along to Greg for his consideration. For since I am seeking ultimately to edify the body of Christ, should I seek to assert my God given right to prophesy on the forum without it being reviewed, to do such would only get the message immediately removed, probably before it even had a chance to be read by others save a moderator. And since we prophesy out of love for others, if none are possibly edified because of it, and a moderator alone has read the thread, then what loving thing has been accomplished?

If possible, I'm sure Greg would setup a filter that would automatically treat such like spam mail, and simply move it to some moderator folder or trash bin. Thus, if such a thing is going to happen regardless, then perhaps one should endure such a thing.

Perhaps Greg will eventually change his mind, and I pray that he does, for ultimately my conclusions about this topic are not grounded in some sort of self-willed "right to prophesy," but out of deeply serious convictions that have been born out of a quest to understand the Scriptures, and my place as a Christian in the rest of the body of Christ. Such convictions have had their application in a non-cyber world, and I have experienced some measure of suffering from friends, family, and even the local church. I have thus attempted to zealously defend my position as much as possible, and believe it to be in full harmony with what the Scriptures require at the local church setting.

God bless you all. Might all the Lord's people be prophets!

J
jordanamo

Jeremiah 4:3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.

Jordan

C
Compton

After reading this thread...one observers comment.

God holds you and your moderators responsible for this site and you will be required to give an account of the way your handled your stewardship. People who cannot respect that fact ought not to be members of this 'community'.

I honestly cannot see why this point continues to be disputed. While there may be a larger discussion going on here about the prophets, we cannot forget that we are mere guests.

Entitlement seems to be the name of the game these days.

I'm often amazed that Greg keeps the forum so open. On one hand he hosts a priceless collection of sound preaching...on the other hand he let's impulsive and opiniated people (like me) come in and leave dirty socks on the furniture...He's doing all the housekeeping while I'm loafing on the couch with my feet propped up on his coffee table...I'm likely to complain if his sweeping is interfering with my view of the football game. (By the way Greg, could you get me a soda from your fridge?...all this whining is making me thirsty.;-) )

The forum is not public property...though the moderators do such a good job making us feel at home that we can forget this. In my opinion Greg should be commended for not shutting the forum down. He could certainly do so while keeping the Index of Sermons very much available.

If we feel there is an error in judgement here, we can always pray for the oversight leaders...they clearly love the Lord.

Now if an unknown prophet is ever in my house and wants to unexpectedly prophecy to my wife, my children, or my close friends or guests...he better be ready to talk to me first or I reserve the right (yea the responsibility) to throw him out by his collar and belt. Let him shake the dust off his feet to me! In this age of drive-by ministers, we must see what spirit is in people. It may be zeal, but is it still bitter? It may sound like love but is it flattery? I feel wearing a seat belt is safer then not wearing one... and I think the Lord has authorized fathers, pastors, elders, and moderators to be more then bystanders in their own houses.

Blessings,

MC

D
dohzman

If memory serves me right, Greg made that request after some anonymous posters started placing prophesies all over the place. History is a good word. Why would someone be ashamed to be known especially if they're speaking for God?
Think!
Next things: God is Sovereign, that means 1) God call Greg to start this site and not another. 2) Because this was a task given to Greg God will equip him with the graces/giftings nessary to fulfill this ministry, that includes things like leadership, as well as a heart that can recieve guidence (the wounds of a friend are faithful). 3) God knows the end from the begining and is able to accomplish His purposes reguardless of happens between the lines.

Principle: The spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets. Do we need to mention self control, gentleness, meekness, humility, a general submitting one to another out of love and godly fear in our endeavor to please the Lord?

No one's trying to muzzle the Word of God, at least not from what I've seen, however there are some common courtesies that should be applied.

P
philologos

by KingJimmy on 2007/2/2 3:15:27
I have given it much thought this afternoon, and conclude that while I don't believe it is exactly proper, that should I personally get a "thus saith the Lord" type message to give on this forum, I will pass it along to Greg for his consideration.

If I am understanding these aright this is all Greg is suggesting.


If possible, I'm sure Greg would setup a filter that would automatically treat such like spam mail, and simply move it to some moderator folder or trash bin. Thus, if such a thing is going to happen regardless, then perhaps one should endure such a thing.

He may have the necessary technical skills but he wouldn't have the heart to set up such a machine. He is simply saying that he and his moderators should be the 'filter'.

Jimmy, you will know from many of my other posts how I regard 'official posts'. Sermonindex has no model in the scriptures, neither have Bible Schools etc In such cases where there is no specific scriptural pattern we take the general tenor of scripture as our guide.

I don't know about you but I actively promote Sermonindex wherever I go. I have two sets of simple business cards, one for my own site and one for Sermonindex. I always ask permission to put half a dozen of each on the book table of places where I am invited to preach. In personal pastoral conversations with people I encourage them to come and refresh themselves here at Sermonindex. Several tender folk whose church experiences have left them bruised and bewildered have found a fresh stream to drink of here. Some are very sensitive to the danger of 'prophetic manipulation' and have been made so by their personal experience. My heart sinks when I see a 'thus saith the Lord' prophetic utterance here. I know the effects it will have on these tender consciences; it will shut them down again.

My encouragement of Greg and the moderators is not only because of my personal respect for them but because of my pastoral concerns for those who surf these forums.

It seems that Greg's intention is much preferable to a blanket 'ban' on such contributions.

For those who think me unscriptural for supporting such an idea I ask them to consider this verse from the point of view of both parties...[color=0000ff]“Obey your leaders, and be submissive; for they watch over your souls as those that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not groaning, for this [would be] unprofitable for you.” (Heb 13:17 DRBY)[/color]The word for 'obey' is [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=13&verse=17&strongs=3982&page=1&flag_full=1]piethO[/url] and is better translated 'trust'. The '[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=2233]ones leading[/url]' of Heb 13:7,17,24 are not 'elders' necessarily.

S
Spitfire

I have been hurt in churches. I think that is why I have shut my mouth. I actually have said in my heart, go to hell. I have sinned against God by holding onto my life. I haven't been willing to be hurt. I've been in a year of deep despair. It's a long story. I've been up most nights begging God to help me, with mostly silence from Him. Lately, I've begged Him to show me what's wrong. I've asked Him to give me the grace to see it, whatever it is. I think I'm finally beginning to see that I have rejected the call as a prophet. For years, I expected to have the endorsement of "the church leadership". Well, after all, I was in a church that loved all that prophesy stuff. They were under the auspices of Bill Hammond and on the cutting edge of "the prophetic movement". Why wouldn't they love the prophet, right? Wrong. They only like those whose words endorse everything they say and do.
I went to a church about 7 years ago where the pastor stood in the pulpit and preached the most anointed message on getting out of debt and he personally confessed his sins in that area before the church. It was awesome. He then shared a prophetic word of caution to the entire church about debt. It was full of the power of God. Two weeks later, he held a special meeting because he had found an entire shopping center for sale and wanted the church to buy it. Now, mind you, the church had no debt. In this meeting, he shared his "vision" for our church and why we should go into debt to purchase this entire shopping strip for almost a million dollars! When he finished, he asked if anyone had any questions or anything to say. I stood up and said, "Only two weeks ago you ministered the word of the Lord to us concerning debt and today you are telling us all the reasons why we should do this." I said, "I think we need to respect the word that came to us under the anointing of the Holy Ghost that was given two weeks ago." You should have seen the pastor's face. It was as if someone had thrown a bucket of water on him.
After that, I was ignored. They did not purchase the shopping strip because they were not able to raise the money and they did not go into to debt to do it. I left about 2 years later. They still always talk of a world-wide "vision" and how they are going to "impact the world for Christ", but I've seen it too many times. Their "vision" is just that, it's their vision, not God's. Most of the people who go there are always "fired up". They've been fired up for 15 years. That's all they ever are. The same ones are at the altar week after week getting prayed for and strewn about the floor like rag dolls while their lives never change.
The church I went to after that actually accused me of having a spirit of Jezebel. That was the last straw for me. I wasn't angry. It really was one man who said it. He is someone who wants to be recognized as being the greatest prophet who ever lived. The pastor and I remain dear friends and he rebuked the man who said it, but he left him "in charge", so to speak, of the prophetic aspect of the church. I went to a meeting they had one Friday nite. This man, he stood at the front of the church and said, "the Lord told me that someone here tonite has a word for this church and, if it's you, I'd like for you to write it down and give it to me so we can receive from the Lord." I was immediately overcome with a word from the Lord. I said, "no, Lord, please, not me. Please don't make me do this, Lord." But, I knew in my heart it was the Lord. It burned in me like something on fire. I wrote down the word. Of course it was a cry for repentance and deeply humbling ourselves before God. I can still remember, it started out with: "Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? He that has clean hands and a pure heart." When I finished writing it, I slipped over and handed it to the man all neatly folded. He never said a word. That night, no word for that church was ever said, or read. He simply put it in his pocket. I knew when the Lord asked me to do it that's what would happen. That man hates me.
I left there about 9 mos later. I didn't go to church for almost 2 years. Oh, I would go on occasion, but I wasn't connected anywhere. I just sought God with all my heart for a year. I listened to messages from SI and spent a year and a half being dismantled by God like an old car. When he finished with me, I was in pieces all over God's garage floor and the trashcan was full of useless garbage and rusty old pieces that could no longer be used. As I lay there in this helpless state, I finally realized, unless the Lord puts me back together, I'm never getting up. I had attended Art Katz' annual prophetic conference in August "05. I absolutely love Art. To me, that man is someone who has gone through with God. He is, to me, truly a world prophet. We should listen to what he has to say. When I came home from that conference, I was excited. I had vision and purpose. The Lord spoke to me and gave me specific instructions to invite Art to East Tennessee to speak for a series of meetings. God opened every door. Art was coming! He was actually going to stay in my home! We acquired the auditorium of a local college to hold the meetings. I printed flyers and sent out personal letters. I was on a mission. Art was scheduled to come in January of "06. He fell ill in December ''05 and has been ill ever since. He was unable to make the trip. I felt like a person floating on a log in the middle of the ocean watching the last ship pass. I knew. I knew it was a setup. I knew that God was taking me downtown. I knew. I tried to put on my best face. I clawed at the walls of that hole of despair I was slipping into. I tried every trick I knew, but I just sank to the bottom over the course of last year. I was alone and my husband's hostility and alcoholism had reached it's peak, but I still plugged on loving him as the Lord had commanded me and finally on Father's Day '06, my husband submitted himself to God. It was a huge reward for me! Now, we are enjoying a tremendous relationship of love and mutual respect. My husband led the way in helping us find and become involved with an upstart church which meets at our local high school. Like I said on SI, I feel like a worm in a chicken lot. The pastor, he's so sweet. I can see that he is sincere. He's about 38 years old. A former Air Force pilot with an awesome testimony of sitting in church and hearing the call of God and leaving the military to pastor a church in for, I think, 6 years.
He says he left 'cause they were a church of old foggies who didn't want to change with the times.
He has a "vsion" to start a church that reaches "the post modern generation". The motto he has tagged on the church is, "Different For A Reason". He is ordained thru the North American Missions Board, so he's Baptist. The church is comprised of he and his wife and children, his inlaws, his parents, our family and three other families. One of those families is hardly ever there because they just had twins right before Christmas. We started going there in October. My husband loves it and they love him. I sing with their "worship band". When we first visited, we received an invitation in the mail the following week to come to dinner with the pastor and his wife at her parent's home. When we arrived, the other two couples were also there. The pastor shared his vision and said, "The first step in my plan is to establish home Bible studies in the area. Are any of you here interested in hosting a home Bible study?" And before I could draw my next breath, my husband jumped up and said, "We'll do it." So, for that past eleven weeks we have hosted a Bible study on Wednesday nites. It's been cool. We've developed relationships with these people.
But still...I feel lost. I feel like I'm dying. I see so much in this church that is just the same old song and dance. I'm sort of just going through the motions and wondering when God will ever speak to me again. I love that my husband is happy and enjoying fellowship and he has embraced this church and these people. He's growing spiritually, so I will not leave unless my husband says we leave. I don't say much, except I do share in Bible study. One night I gave my testimony by compilation. I spent two weeks recording it. When I played it for the group, they just all sat there absolutely speechless. Finally, the pastor spoke and said, "let's just spend a few moments thanking God for this family and what God has done here."
Anyway...don't know what made me write all this down. I think I'm depressed because I'm holding in alot of stuff. I've been rejected when I let loose with all that God has placed inside me. Art's cancelled visit just about broke my back, spiritually. I so wanted someone to come to our area and start something real. I'm really doubtful if this pastor has even begun to be fully broken before God. He's sweet, but he isn't broken. He's sincere, but he isn't broken. He's eloquent and modern, but he isn't broken. He's excited about missions, but he isn't broken. He's full of plans, but he isn't broken. I don't hold out much hope for men who aren't broken. The human heart is too full of pride. Too tricky. Too deceitful. The only kind of man who can lead God's people home is a dead man. This pastor is far too quick.
So many men in leadership have their own agenda. That’s why I think judging prophecy should be done publicly, that way, if the leadership believes the word was false, they can expose the false prophet publicly. I don’t think prophecy should be judged privately, but I do believe it should be judged.
Honestly, just using that situation I mentioned above where I wrote my prophetic word down and gave it to that man. If he believed what he spoke from the pulpit, then he must believe the word which I handed him was false. If that’s the case, didn’t he have an obligation to warn the people of someone like me in their midst? Instead, he just walks around with an attitude towards me. He doesn’t speak to me. If I’m a false prophet, then I’m a danger in the church. Are false prophets people without hope? Are we released by God to reject them as hopeless?
I’ve seen this time and time again. If you judge prophecy privately, then you run a huge risk of entering into an area of control which is ungodly.
This is just my opinion. If that man thought the word which I handed him was “not what he was looking for”, then why didn’t he just read it publicly and tell everyone that? That would shut me up. No prophet who wants the acclaim of men wants to be publicly humiliated. No, I think that man is a tyrant who is more of a deadly threat to the Spirit of Truth in that church than the devil himself. At least I have the courage to say what I’m thinking publicly. And that’s the reason I left.
I know a dead man when I see one. They have no agenda but God's. Blood has a smell. When the blood has all drained out of a man and the Spirit of Jesus Christ is flowing in his veins, the smell changes. I've smelled it two times in my life on two old men. The rest of us, we just smell like blood.

That's all I've got to say about that. Dian.

S
sermonindex


dohzman said

[b]No one's trying to muzzle the Word of God, at least not from what I've seen[/b], however there are some common courtesies that should be applied.
I'm not sure if there is anyone here who remembers the term 'pyramid movement' from the 1970s, but I want to bring it up because of the term 'shepherding' which has been mentioned in the fallout from the GNN break-up with WOTM and LW, which has affected Jesse (Morrel). And, for my own concern that if it is really true that SI members who get to know each other in the Spirit, are 'not a church', then on what basis do any of us operate here? Can we really discount the leadership of the Holy Spirit in what we think and write, and just turn this place into a biblically-orientated discussion group, where there is a Pyrrhonistic distaste for settling the meaning of the word of God as the only true wisdom in this world?

I honestly don't have a problem trusting the leadership of SI while it stays scriptural, but, I would not hang around if it leant away from either the word [i]or[/i] the Spirit.

It is a double whammy to bring into question the witness of the Spirit. Also, I question whether there really is so little in scripture to define SI?

The whole matter of a written record from which the church has benefitted at all, down the years, is testimony to the importance of 'written word', which all of us who write should be bearing in mind before God.

This is not to make claims for what is written here, as if it is scripture, but, all of us should be understanding that the written word is a particular form of communication, which does bear the power to change lives - and to change the way people think and what they communicate.

From an entirely personal point of view, it is historical within churches during the last thirty or more years, to put barriers of separation between leaders and the flock, which I cannot see in scripture. It is completely against the true shepherd heart, and, as Ron pointed out in another thread about church leadership, the first mention of someone setting themself higher is as early as 3 John 1:9 and he would not receive the apostle himself.....

philologos said earlier in the thread (p5)

there is a difference between the prophetic and teaching. Teaching is objectively quantifiable by means of the scripture. The prophetic is not quantifiable other than subjectively by the hearer. With teaching we can say 'what saith the scripture?' with the prophetic we are reduced to saying 'how do you feel about this'?
and
Can the 'prophecy' be discussed of a forum? The only comment that we can make is 'I have a witness' or 'I don't have a witness'. The 'despise not prophesyings' was directed to a community of people who were accountable to each other.
I am concerned at any suggestion that 'we are reduced' to the witness of the Spirit for our discernment.

Also, I don't believe there is any reduction of accountability to members of the Church, here, compared with a more recognisable 3D situation.

This IS 3D! It is very different, but we all have hardware and software and are all physically engaged in what we are doing when we write, and mostly, some of us are seeking the Lord all the time for an expression of what He has given, that prompts us to write.

Time is passing at the same rate, also, and if there is anyone who should be doing something other than writing a post on SI, then it's up to them to get off their computer and do that instead. [i]Because[/i] they are accountable...

R
roadsign

I must admit, I’ve been a tad bit confused, and am trying to unravel the whole issue that has come up. I’m wondering if really it is a matter of “unacceptable” posts in general, more than a case of all of us suddenly needing to have a “post” policeman to filter our posts. (and I don' t mind being subject to the "laws of the land".)

Surely, God is wishing to teach us something here. After all, prophesy is not something of minor significance. It is part of the New Covenant promise:

“I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy…
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.” Acts 2:18

I do not believe that this is talking about a subjective, inconsequential phenomenon but about something totally amazing: God’s Spirit speaking directly to and through his children. It is all about connection with God – ie the Head! This is how the true Church grew and was strengthened. Surely those who are filled with the Spirit can be expected to prophesy – at some point. Of course this does not imply that all are prophets. “Are all apostles? Are all prophets?… 1 Cor. 1:29

I suspect that we do not see a lot of true prophesy because we have been living in an arid land for so long – living in the flesh. Also, there is a tendency to isolate prophesy from the bigger picture – it’s union with the Word, with a crucified life, godly living,other ministries, etc.

Just think of the healings, salvations, edification, exhortation that would happen if more here prophesied because they were in tune with the Head. Surely the prophetic ministry is nothing to be sniffed at! Really, without it we are just left to rely on our own opinions and subjective interpretations.

Unfortunately in many circles the “Spirit” has become nothing more than a subjective sentiment. Also, to an alarming extent the word ‘prophesy” has become distasteful simply by it’s prevalent misuse. I suspect that we have all witnessed more bad prophesy than good prophesy (ie true words from the Lord). Indeed the bad prophesies need to be filtered out!

Now here’s a wild thought: It just occurred to me that if God would pour out his Spirit here, the number of prophetic words could be substantial – and our mods would be exhausted trying to pass through them all. Might I make a suggestion (though it might be right off the wall). Why not select various people who have spiritual discernment to monitor at certain hours so that there is 24 hr coverage – maybe two or three at a time. That way our mods can sleep. And inappropriate posts could be deleted or modified quickly, before anyone is defiled by them, led astray by them, or before harm can come to the image of SI. (Edit: Ok, so there are technological limits)

Of course, not all posts would need to be deleted. Sometimes merely suggesting more appropriate wording is all that is needed. Surely not all posters of inappropriate posts are contentious – maybe just immature and need some discipline (teaching) and help resolving their anger. And that takes time!

“…Make disciples …” Matt. 28

I don't mind volunteering 7 - 8 am my time.


Diane

P
philologos

by dorcas on 2007/2/2 13:47:12
Can the 'prophecy' be discussed of a forum? The only comment that we can make is 'I have a witness' or 'I don't have a witness'. The 'despise not prophesyings' was directed to a community of people who were accountable to each other.

I am concerned at any suggestion that 'we are reduced' to the witness of the Spirit for our discernment.
The phrase I used was "With teaching we can say 'what saith the scripture?' with the prophetic we are reduced to saying 'how do you feel about this'?" This is not the witness of the Spirit. The Spirit witnesses that we belong to Christ. The phrase 'I have the witness of the Spirit' is sadly too often a roundabout way of saying 'I agree with this'.


And, for my own concern that if it is really true that SI members who get to know each other in the Spirit, are 'not a church', then on what basis do any of us operate here?

We operate on the basis of Christian fellowship. A local church is a covenant fellowship bound together in conscious commitment to each other. It is a manifestation in a locality of the person of Jesus Christ. It is required to declare all the counsel of God. It usually has some person(s) who are ultimately responsible under God for how the function as such a community.

Non-church organisations are not unscriptural. The 'apostolic team' that we find around Paul was not a church but they were not unscriptural. They were a team established by God for a specific purpose. This creates a model for hundreds of works of God over the years. God raises up a man and builds a team around him. God holds that man responsible for what has been entrusted to him. Many will benefit from such teams. They may choose to delegate their responsibility in all kinds of ways but ultimately they personally will have to give an account of what was trusted to them. This is not a church. This group may work for churches, in churches, alongside churches but is not a church.

Sermonindex is, in my view, such a God created work. He gave a young man a 'vision' and has gathered around him supporters in prayer, in gift, in counsel, in finance, but they are only to assist in the 'vision'. He has to be able to say 'I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision'. It will not do to say 'others spoiled/distorted the vision'. 'others' are not responsible for the 'vision' only for their faithfulness in God in supporting the chosen man. Such works of God may often have a very limited purpose. Sermonindex does not, so far as I am aware, seek to be a vehicle for the 'full counsel' of God; its commission is much narrower and focuses on personal and geographical revival. Anything that facilitates Sermonindex in that commission is to be embraced; anything which hinders Sermonindex in that commission is to be shunned.

M
myfirstLove

in my old church, the Lord gave me a word to share with our body, but the pastor would not let me share the word because it wasn't warm and fuzzy. oh, how His word was burning in me! i ask again, and again, and still he refused. i wept so many days seeing clearly that the the leaders refused not me, but God Himself! God then had me speaking to the leaders. God also gave me dreams that i knew was from Him to share with the leaders. the Lord showed me how that body was a synogogue of satan. yes, this was what i had to share and the leaders nash their teeth! the leaders got the whole body nashing their teeth at me, and beliving that i was just a bittered person, filled with jelousy because i didn't get my way. cursing me in their heart because i dare touch "God's annointed". but they would not kick me out of church. the leader knew God sent me. many of the favorable dreams i had of the church came to pass, but when the church started going the wrong way those words and dreams weren't so favorble any more. it was like jeremiah, where the king knew he was a prophet, but out of fear of man and pride continue to deny God's word sent to him. the ex pastor did the same, and because of that stricter judgement came. the body he had me speaking too is gone and all its leaders. 2000 people were driven away. the Lord showed me how my pastor was given over to strong delusion. his teaching and lifestyle got worse and he is very blind to it. this man started out right, but ended up adopting wrong teachings and worldly methods. he seeing much had come to pass, willfully disobeyed God. much like saul who started out good, but his end....

when i shared the words God gave me about the church, it seemed ridiculous at the time. no one believed that this big church would loose so many people and its leaders. it did seem impossible if you were judging by outward appearance, and i did suffer a lot of riducule and made to look like a FOOL. i had to continue to go to this church until everything was stripped down and i have to say it was torment to my soul knowing all despise me and thought i was insane, but i went because of God.

what joseph shared reminded me of what i went thru. His dream is all to real for me and bears deeply with my spirit.

i say we must be very careful judging prophecy. it is safer, i think to lay it down for all to hear and then let the people judge. how do we know if all the leaders is able to make righteos judgement? my old church leaders shut out the prophets. i'm not saying greg would, but some say on here the word must first be given to the leadership at any church.

in corithian it says to let prophets share one at a time. it didn't say to give it to leadership first. though some believe that s.i is not a church so that word does not apply to s.i. ??? but i say it is a body. we come here with teaching, exortation, correction, ect... just like a body. though we do not see each other face to face, we sense each other spirit in the Lord.

do you think that all of isreal knew the prophets well before the prophet was sent to speak?

i believe that s.i is a community of believers that we are able to share prophectic words with each other. we are all God's people (the church). prophectic words are for edifying the whole body of believers. yes, some prophecies are for certain body of believers, and i believe God would give a word specifically for the body of s.i believers too. but when you have a prophectic word for all of isreal (the church) in america then it goes out to all.

S
sermonindex


Compton wrote:
After reading this thread...one observers comment.

God holds you and your moderators responsible for this site and you will be required to give an account of the way your handled your stewardship. People who cannot respect that fact ought not to be members of this 'community'.

I honestly cannot see why this point continues to be disputed. While there may be a larger discussion going on here about the prophets, we cannot forget that we are mere guests.

Entitlement seems to be the name of the game these days.

I'm often amazed that Greg keeps the forum so open. On one hand he hosts a priceless collection of sound preaching...on the other hand he let's impulsive and opiniated people (like me) come in and leave dirty socks on the furniture...He's doing all the housekeeping while I'm loafing on the couch with my feet propped up on his coffee table...I'm likely to complain if his sweeping is interfering with my view of the football game. (By the way Greg, could you get me a soda from your fridge?...all this whining is making me thirsty.;-) )

[b][color=000066]HAHAHA! Thank you for that bit of light relief [/color][/b]

The forum is not public property...though the moderators do such a good job making us feel at home that we can forget this. In my opinion Greg should be commended for not shutting the forum down. He could certainly do so while keeping the Index of Sermons very much available.

If we feel there is an error in judgement here, we can always pray for the oversight leaders...they clearly love the Lord.

Now if an unknown prophet is ever in my house and wants to unexpectedly prophecy to my wife, my children, or my close friends or guests...he better be ready to talk to me first or I reserve the right (yea the responsibility) to throw him out by his collar and belt. Let him shake the dust off his feet to me! In this age of drive-by ministers, we must see what spirit is in people. It may be zeal, but is it still bitter? It may sound like love but is it flattery? I feel wearing a seat belt is safer then not wearing one... and I think the Lord has authorized fathers, pastors, elders, and moderators to be more then bystanders in their own houses.

Blessings,

MC [b][color=000066]With you 100% Brother!

Maybe we can give this debate a rest![/color][/b]

D
dohzman

I title that in love an in all humility. If you look at most all of my post responses you'll observe that I rarely respond to long post. in fact I rarely read long posts. I read all your post sis. I would like to make a few general comments and observations. My desire is to re-affirm, offer comfort, exhort and encourage you, so if in the midst of what I write you hear rebuke, please forgive me for that's not the intention of this response. The greater the degree of usefulness for God, the deeper the wounding/breaking process, it must be so because character comes from this process. Giftedness (being used by God in the gifts of the Holy Spirit) without character is like untempered mortar for bricks or words/actions without love. I don't know that one ever really comes to a place where the brokeness ever has truely stopped, I do believe that one comes to a place of rest and acceptance, that's where the joy comes from.

That night, no word for that church was ever said, or read. He simply put it in his pocket. I knew when the Lord asked me to do it that's what would happen. That man hates me
Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
You're only called to be submissive (in a godly manner) and obedient, what others do with what is committed to them should be of no concern to you,the word you gave starts with God and must end with God, the results no matter what form they take must be left to God. You must take this man and this incident to the cross where there is a river that makes glad thoughs who come to it.

I stood up and said, "Only two weeks ago you ministered the word of the Lord to us concerning debt and today you are telling us all the reasons why we should do this." I said, "I think we need to respect the word that came to us under the anointing of the Holy Ghost that was given two weeks ago." You should have seen the pastor's face. It was as if someone had thrown a bucket of water on him.
For every word /teaching given , there is of nessity a fire/trial/temptation that must needs come to try it. The failure was your pastor, not you.

1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keepunder my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

for that past eleven weeks we have hosted a Bible study on Wednesday nites. It's been cool. We've developed relationships with these people.
But still...I feel lost. I feel like I'm dying. I see so much in this church that is just the same old song and dance. I'm sort of just going through the motions and wondering when God will ever speak to me again.
O' I believe He still is speaking to you, the bigger question is are you willing to allow Him/trust Him to lead you----Looking back, laying it aside and pressing forward to the High calling in Christ Jesus, it'l take faith, it'll take trust, it'll take perserverence, and it'll take God's grace which He will give to you free and without any cost to you. Pro 9:5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.
Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

You're His child, if I being a human father of 4 children can't stand not hearing from my children and my children hearing from me, and I being evil love them, how much more will your Heavenly Father who is Love personified, love perfect,move heaven and earth to listen to and speak to you, His own child? My dear sister, seek the rest that comes from Jesus that He has set aside just for you and none other, God Bless, be at peace, and may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Bro. daryl

S
sermonindex


dohzman wrote:
I title that in love an in all humility. If you look at most all of my post responses you'll observe that I rarely respond to long post. in fact I rarely read long posts. I read all your post sis. I would like to make a few general comments and observations. My desire is to re-affirm, offer comfort, exhort and encourage you, so if in the midst of what I write you hear rebuke, please forgive me for that's not the intention of this response. The greater the degree of usefulness for God, the deeper the wounding/breaking process, it must be so because character comes from this process. Giftedness (being used by God in the gifts of the Holy Spirit) without character is like untempered mortar for bricks or words/actions without love. I don't know that one ever really comes to a place where the brokeness ever has truely stopped, I do believe that one comes to a place of rest and acceptance, that's where the joy comes from.
That night, no word for that church was ever said, or read. He simply put it in his pocket. I knew when the Lord asked me to do it that's what would happen. That man hates me
Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
You're only called to be submissive (in a godly manner) and obedient, what others do with what is committed to them should be of no concern to you,the word you gave starts with God and must end with God, the results no matter what form they take must be left to God. You must take this man and this incident to the cross where there is a river that makes glad thoughs who come to it.
I stood up and said, "Only two weeks ago you ministered the word of the Lord to us concerning debt and today you are telling us all the reasons why we should do this." I said, "I think we need to respect the word that came to us under the anointing of the Holy Ghost that was given two weeks ago." You should have seen the pastor's face. It was as if someone had thrown a bucket of water on him.
For every word /teaching given , there is of nessity a fire/trial/temptation that must needs come to try it. The failure was your pastor, not you.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keepunder my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
for that past eleven weeks we have hosted a Bible study on Wednesday nites. It's been cool. We've developed relationships with these people.
But still...I feel lost. I feel like I'm dying. I see so much in this church that is just the same old song and dance. I'm sort of just going through the motions and wondering when God will ever speak to me again.
O' I believe He still is speaking to you, the bigger question is are you willing to allow Him/trust Him to lead you----Looking back, laying it aside and pressing forward to the High calling in Christ Jesus, it'l take faith, it'll take trust, it'll take perserverence, and it'll take God's grace which He will give to you free and without any cost to you. Pro 9:5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.
Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

You're His child, if I being a human father of 4 children can't stand not hearing from my children and my children hearing from me, and I being evil love them, how much more will your Heavenly Father who is Love personified, love perfect,move heaven and earth to listen to and speak to you, His own child? My dear sister, seek the rest that comes from Jesus that He has set aside just for you and none other, God Bless, be at peace, and may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Bro. daryl

[b][color=000066][font=Verdana]I often skim long messages too, but am sorry not to have read that post, until now. Especially as my last message must have sounded dismissive of the heart-cries of a rejected, heartbroken true prophet.

Having suffered rejection and heartache (mostly, in my case, because of emotional hang-ups I had from a child; and which the Lord has been healing these last few years) I can relate to this a little.

Added to personal rejection (in this and at least one other post here) is the knowledge that it was the true Word of God that has been rejected. The wariness of ever again trusting man with that precious thing the Lord has said is understandable.

But, as I said, I don't think that's likely to happen here - the empty frivolous feel-good sort of rubbish would be more likely to be rejected than the sort of word you were given.

Can I ask:...What does happen to prophecies that are sent to the moderators? Are they just put on a thread somewhere or in a separate section of SI?

In Christ

Jeannette[/font][/color][/b]

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sermonindex

Would it help to study the life of Jeremiah? He knew exactly what it was to be rejected, abused and heartbroken - not to mention being imprisoned in a slimy pit where he almost died -because no-one would listen to the word from God that he brought.

As the Lord said to Ezekiel, the Word is sometimes to be spoken, "whether they hear or refuse to hear, for they are a rebellious house."

It may also be that some prophecies are to be simply recorded and prayed about, rather than spoken out - except maybe to one or two trusted friends. Ezewkiel was actually dumb unless the Lord opened his mouth!

I had a word for a local church here, which (if it is from God) they could never accept at the moment - even though the leaders are dear men who really love the Lord.

I believe it is, in this case, for "information" to "watch and pray regarding the matter. Perhaps, when the thing begins to happen, it will be the right time to speak, to encourage that God is working through what may seem to be a disaster.

Jeannette

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crsschk

Can I ask:...What does happen to prophecies that are sent to the moderators? Are they just put on a thread somewhere or in a separate section of SI?

Hi sister,

Actually, nothing has happened at all. Have all the confidence in the world that Greg will do what the Lord leads him to do. But as it stands right now there has been nothing enforced and to be honest, hardly any discussion amongst ourselves. I believe he is busy addressing other matters. A lot of what has been written here is nothing short of speculation and assumption unfortunately.

R
roadsign

I'm sort of just going through the motions and wondering when God will ever speak to me again…. I think I'm depressed because I'm holding in alot of stuff.

Dian, You have been carrying some tough burdens! I’m sure that one of the reasons that the weight is so heavy because you care and because you have the heart of God.

Here are some of my own thoughts – for what they are worth: I believe that the Lord brings his burden-bearers to a point where they can’t carry the burden any longer without breaking under it. And there is a good reason for this: It is to teach them to be equally yoked with Christ. Really it is HIS burden, and we are called to participate in it, not to carry the weight of it. Do you think that he is moving you towards that point: to transfer the entire weight of the burden onto Christ?

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened
and I will give you rest
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me,
for I am gentle and humble in heart,
and you will find rest for your souls.
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
…you will find rest for your souls.” Matt. 11:29-30

I agree with what Dohzman said:

the word you gave starts with God and must end with God, the results no matter what form they take must be left to God.

I think it’s instinctive to assume more responsibility than we are called to carry, and to hang on to the burden once we receive it.

I’m so thankful that Jeremiah’s struggles were recorded - so that we can see an example of one who also got weighed down by the sin problems of his day. He even ‘flew off the handle’ at one point, and blurted out to God: “Drag them off like sheep to be butchered!” ….. Way to go Jeremiah!

God didn’t seem to feel sorry for the prophet, but instead prodded him onward. He said, “If you have reacted with men on foot and they have worn you out, how can you complete with horses?” Jer. 12:5 In other words, “Jeremiah, you better learn how to handle the burdens now, because it’s only going to get tougher.”

Consider Moses. He had a tendency to carry the burden of Israel’s sin problems far beyond what God called him to. It was underlying reason for his anger. In fact, it kept him out of the Promised Land.

Habakkuk is a good example of one who learned to leave it all in God’s hands. He said,

“Yet I will wait patiently for the day of calamity...

Yet I will rejoice in the Lord,
I will be joyful in God my Savior.
The Sovereign Lord is my strength’
He makes my feet like the feet of a deer,
He enables me to go on the heights.” Hab. 3:16-18

Dian, May that become your experience too.

Diane


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Spitfire

.

God didn’t seem to feel sorry for the prophet, but instead prodded him onward. He said, “If you have reacted with men on foot and they have worn you out, how can you complete with horses?” Jer. 12:5 In other words, “Jeremiah, you better learn how to handle the burdens now, because it’s only going to get tougher.”

I believe this. I [i]do[/i] understand that a true prophet must know the voice of God and be submitted to God alone. I use Balam as my example. Our reasons for speaking or not speaking can only be God's. Do you all remember that old saying, "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen." Prophets have to be tough old birds. The first prerequisite for being a prophet is this: You must love not your life unto death.

I don't know why there are so many wannabes. The only reward of it is God Himself and that comes with a high price. I should be slapped for letting myself get so full of self-pity.

This morning as I awoke I was just laying there not wanting to get up (something which happens alot lately). I was remembering back to the days when I bounded out of bed to seek God and wondering what has happened to me. I distinctly heard the Lord speak to me as I lay there. He said, "Anyone who comes to me must believe that I am, and that I am a rewarder of those who diligently seek me." I gasped! I realized that I had fallen into self-pity and unbelief right at that moment.

There was that period of time when I was seeking God with all my heart and I believed it would pay off. I poured my heart out to God day after day and somehow I wound up in the middle of nowhere by a small, trickling brook with only ravens to feed me. Where was God? I think I've become almost angry with God as I've watched this brook dry up. I started to listen to a lie. It said, "Nothing is ever going to change. It doesn't matter how early you get up or how much you pray. God isn't going to come to you. This is the end of the line for you."

Oh, my God. Oh, my God! Oh, God! What to say here? Is there a word for a groan coming up out of the gut? Oh, Precious God. Do we even have a clue? You came to me, Lord, and I didn't recognize you. You came in such a precious way and I didn't know who you were. God help me! I despised the chastening of the Lord. I despised the process of lonliness that is required to really know God! I'm speechless

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sermonindex

We operate on the basis of Christian fellowship. [b]A local church is a covenant fellowship bound together in conscious commitment to each other[/b]. It is a manifestation in a locality of the person of Jesus Christ. It is required to declare all the counsel of God. It usually has some person(s) who are ultimately responsible under God for how the function as such a community.
In the sentence I've emboldened, I am wondering what you mean by 'a covenant fellowship'. I ask, partly because of Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Covenant, which all 'members' are required to endorse. Is this what you mean.... some sort of 'joining' procedure, called 'a covenant'?

Also, I wonder what is to prevent the manifestation of Jesus Christ through a body of believers who find themselves minstering to each other in the same way, over the internet - praying for each other, sharing the word, operating in other gifts such as prayer for healing, exhortation, prophecy (dare I mention it?), bearing each others' burdens, rejoicing with those who rejoice, weeping with those who weep, enduring persecution and standing together against spiritual wickedness in high places (to mention these few spiritual functions of church members) - from being identified as 'a church' ..... especially as we submit to the word of God through one another, in honest fear and trembling?

It is very heartening to hear your support of Greg's vision, and the reality of his gathering a team around him for whom he has to take responsibility.... but, I personally do not find God being limited to that construct in this situation. As more and more people are being influenced by the ministry of Greg and his team, experiencing personal revival and moving out in obedience to God in response to His callings, surely we should [i]expect[/i] God to be putting people together in a very real way?

I am not arguing, here, that you personally should recognise such spiritual bonds with one another as 'church', but, I have to say that this [b]is[/b] what I'm [i]experiencing[/i] - church - in the spiritual sense of some of us being one in His Body.


1 Corinthians 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


I don't see this as a cause for concern, but rather, a cause for rejoicing, however temporarily the arrangement pertains, while God uses it for His glory. 8-)

R
roadsign

Is there a word for a groan coming up out of the gut?


Dian, when I saw these words they gripped me. I wrote them in my journal… . and still .. they are gripping me … or rather, God is using your words to break through a barrier in me. Oh, it’s not hard to find scriptures to explain your thoughts: “The Spirit intercedes with groans that words cannot express.” Rom. 8:26 True, but … still lots of talk …. lots of explanations… But where are the guts. Dian, never mind finding a word for it!

We talk, talk, talk. We love our words. We eagerly search for words to explain every spiritual concept. We zealously disseminate information, facts, observations, opinions… . We are masters of the cerebral stuff. But where are the guts! Without guts we are dead. Without guts we cannot fully connect with either the heart of God or the plight of fellow man, the pain of beaten wives, rejected children, lonely seniors, fearful pew-dwellers etc.

Last week I attended a funeral – one I desperately wish did not need to happen. My heart was torn over the tragic loss of this godly couple. But there was a death that produced in me far more pain than their death: It was the death that emanated from the pulpit. The pastor was passionless! He did not preach from his gut! He went through the right motions, said the right words, and even made a proper evangelical appeal. But he was unconvincing because he could not reach anyone’s heart. He could not connect with the grief that filled that crowded sanctuary. He could not FEEL with them or walk on their turf. He was a walking dead man – nice, clean, tidy, just like the bodies in the coffins. He was gutless.

There was something that saddened me even more that day: The pastor had absolutely no idea how burdened this now-deceased member of his congregation had been for him and his church – no idea how much John had agonized over the antinomianism, easy believism, , etc.

Only hours before the auto accident John had phoned me – out of the blue. It was an amazing 2-hour conversation, one I will never forget. He poured out his heart to me – a heart of deep compassion and deep burden. His eyes were set on eternal things. Little did I know at the time just how close John was to eternity.

Before the funeral I shared about that conversation with the pastor of his church - to the best I could, and he appreciated it all. Then at the funeral he tried to pass on the burden, but it was obvious that it had not become HIS burden. Some how the guts fell out in the process of delivery. And so, it wasn’t convincing.

Oh, how we try to sanitize away the guts. We don’t like the messiness of it all, the strong emotion – both the intense grief and the intense joy– all intertwined together. It is not logical, it is not “proper”.

May God work in us to remove the hard stones in our heart and give us guts – a “heart of flesh”. May God make us fully alive.

I believe that one of the key qualities that marked the GENUINE prophets was the fact that they had guts. And that made them so annoying to those with hardened hearts. And this will never change.

Diane

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John173

The following was written after reading the previous two posts. My heart continues to break over the condition of our churches here in the United States. I literally wept for a time before writing anything, and had to pause several times and cry some more.

"O my God,
Hear the cry of my heart, the cry of our hearts. Break our hearts that we might weep over our empty and passionless churches. Break our hearts that we might fall on our faces and cry out that You would pour out Your Spirit upon this land of laodicea. Revive us o Lord, for we have become lazy and complacent in our wealth and comfort. Inflame our hearts unto passionate prayer for the lost; both inside and outside the walls of our churches. Raise up the prophets who will cry out in the streets. REPENT! the time of the Lord is at hand! Let us not fear the agony of travailing prayer. Grant us discernment, grant that we would watch and pray, for the bridegroom is coming for His bride. Let us not be found with no oil in our lamps, rather give us oil that we may burn the brighter."

At this point my hearts cry receeded into that deep inner groaning of the spirit that words cannot express. I feel spent of emotion. Much of this anguish is personal. Revival begins in the hearts of individuals. I pray that it is beginning with me.

I am feeling the need to post a prayer request in that forum. Please look for it there and pray. I will title the thread "A broken heart".

Yours in Christ

Doug

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crsschk

Diane and Dian,

Exasperation ... there's a word for us, but even that how this beggarly language fails us. You sisters are precious saints, God love you both.

Have been wanting to make comment on that which Dian (Spitfire) made mention of a number of replies back. When you stood up spiritually as well as actually about that whole matter of the pastors message on getting out of debt and the later seemingly turnabout ... all I could think was, Praise God! What spiritual courage and ... dare I say it, prophetic utterance. Somehow I more convinced these sort of things are more of a particular 'discernment' even if it seems so overtly obvious ... To be honest I did think where were the male voices to challenge this? That is not to say ... sigh ... all these stupid clarifications ... The onus is on the ... [i]guts[/i]! Yes, you both are correct. But the males in that setting ... All the ramifications towards you that stemmed from that. Not a one to stand up and come along side, let alone...

[i]And I sought for a man among them[/i]

There is so much here between you two that is just ... timely. Just as this [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14722&forum=45&post_id=&refresh=Go]Trust Amid the Silence[/url] is. By that I mean, what Dian had mentioned here;

Oh, my God. Oh, my God! Oh, God! What to say here? Is there a word for a groan coming up out of the gut? Oh, Precious God. Do we even have a clue? You came to me, Lord, and I didn't recognize you. You came in such a precious way and I didn't know who you were. God help me! I despised the chastening of the Lord. I despised the process of lonliness that is required to really know God! I'm speechless

This damnable unbelief (I speak for myself here). Indeed, that which preceded this;

This morning as I awoke I was just laying there not wanting to get up (something which happens alot lately). I was remembering back to the days when I bounded out of bed to seek God and wondering what has happened to me. I distinctly heard the Lord speak to me as I lay there. He said, "Anyone who comes to me must believe that I am, and that I am a rewarder of those who diligently seek me." I gasped! I realized that I had fallen into self-pity and unbelief right at that moment.

Been there recently ... even this morning, [i]not feeling up to it[/i], some forcing against it despite that and yet couldn't quite stomach the silence. On the flip side, yesterday and the morning prior ... mentioned this to Greg, could have upchucked my spirit in heavings and tears, it was the very gut wanting expression, crude words lacking as always. In fact Wednesday morning, the day after finding my mother dead ... Darn words... Need to put a frame of reference around this somehow. Not worldly sorrow, not necessarily 'the emotions'. This might be crude for some but when she died and I thank God He allowed her to be at home, when I kissed her and knew she was gone ... The words were "Aw, Ma", it was sweet and beautiful, my dad was eating his lunch in the kitchen and I just said "Pa, I think shes gone". No outbursts of wild emotions, it was peaceful and with mingled prayers I sat with her for a long time just looking on her, loving, smiling, forgetting all the ... words and verses flowing as a backdrop. Her hands were folded together and I had mine on hers. It is all very surreal in that it was [i]real[/i], nothing supernatural, not even those remembered times of the Lords peace in other situations. Would get up and make some calls and come back and do more of the same ... just praying and musing, recall being even envious, telling my Pa how often I have thought of death and escaping all this ...nonsense down here. That I bet she wouldn't dare want to come back to all this and in my Ma's wonderful style would likely say something to the effect of "[i]They can have it[/i]!" :-)

The thing that really surprised me and got to me was when they came to take her to the funeral home. The sheer ... matter of fact-ness, not because of the coroners, they are doing their job, just something in my [i]gut[/i] that just ... revolted at it. Maybe I am more old fashioned than I even know. Later on found out that much of our terminology of what a pallor is and later the 'living room' is all tied to how we once used to deal with the dying, where they stayed in the home for the most part up to the burial.

But that Wednesday morning in prayer... "Lord, I [i]pour out my soul[/i] to you!" Where the words and that the spirit didn't separate from the body in that moment ... my very guts, the marrow of everything wanted ... out! It wasn't any one thing, it wasn't the emotions necessarily ... it just broke forth like a open dam.

Hope this isn't too personal, this whole process is very ... bizarre. Have lost a cousin and friend, others, it is not totally foreign. Yesterday driving home musing and i don't like sometimes the whole programmatic, line upon line ideas of 'the stages' one goes through, however much truth there be in them. It can almost be something that one tries to measure up to subconsciously, "I ought to be feeling this, and that explains that emotion'. The gut is altogether otherwise. Frankly, I was a bit ticked off over the whole thing, over the confusion of emotions, ticked off at death itself. Pissed off at Adam until I thought, yeah it could of been Fred or Bob or however long it might have lasted, Mike Balog would have screwed it all up for sure. Stupid humans, give them the ability to make their own choices, to be able to in essence say no to God.

But I am in no way some stoic over all this. Many tears of sorrow at different times and different ways and certainly more to come. I am hopeful to be able to speak from my gut Saturday at her funeral. To honor her self-sacrificing life with the greatest of dignity and honor she deserves. My folks are very simple people and nobody has ever been so blessed as myself and brother and sister (all adopted mind you) than to have been blessed with such great parents.

My heart goes out to you as well Diane and my prayers. Both of you, your guts in what you covey here and ever so often in other postings, I cannot tell you how appreciative I am of this sharing forth. This all may seem quite far afield from the area of prophets and prophecy but I think that might largely be all due to the deconstruction of what it has become to be accepted as, strangely enough as so much fortune telling, as a notion of 'title' or a banner for the man, rather than the guttural expressions, not the emotions, not that! The very true things of the Spirit, why that has become such an area of dispute, to put it to this test I just do not understand. There should be no fear, no raised defenses and endless explanations ... If it is the Lord, it is the Lord. Everything else is rubbish and conjecture.

But I still believe that sooner or later we will get to the very ... [i]guts[/i] of this business if we can just allow ourselves to be put through the process and that will take some guts as well.

By the way, pray for this fool. There is one thing my Ma used to tell me when I was younger; "I don't want a bunch of people weeping at my funeral!" And I want to honor that.

R
roadsign

Mike, I read your post. What a treasure of real, true, honest Mike, a precious pouring forth.Your Ma said:

"I don't want a bunch of people weeping at my funeral!" And I want to honor that.

Tomorrow, you will honor her wishes. You surely don’t have to be weeping profusely at the funeral to be speaking from your gut. But one thing for sure, the people will KNOW where your words are coming from. And they will be stirred because the words will be flowing from a soul that is coming alive. I know that you will not be afraid to be Mike through and through. And that’s all you need to give. Nothing more. Just yourself.

I wonder why it takes the grim experience of death to make us come alive and feel the true wretchedness of our fallen human condition. It takes tragic losses to stir up the anger that normally lies dormant within us and slowly gnaws away at our soul. And why should we not be angry? There's so much loss - all that we dreamed for and can never come true.

I’ve been thinking lately: Why does the passing into eternity need to happen via human tragedy and suffering, why so untimely, so shocking, so unexpected? Why not a glorious processional?

I am still finding it hard to accept the loss of a husband and wife - 50 yo parents of three lovely daughters – long time friends and colleagues of ours. The Amish were at the funeral, social renegades, farmers, musical professionals – people from all walks of life - those whom this family was not afraid to befriend. Two deaths - all because of an ice patch on the road. Surely, God could have prevented it. Why didn’t God pick someone else, even me? Why is he working against himself – or so it would seem?


Of course, God knows what he’s doing! Of course he knows best! Of course, he’s building his church! …. All fine words – we know it in our minds.

You ask, what does any of this have to do with the prophet theme of this thread? Much, I think. You know how hard it is to talk to someone about loss and death of a loved one if they have not experienced it. Likewise, it is hard to talk about a function in the Body of Christ that is outside of one’s experience and reality. Some things are hard to figure it out with words and formulas. Example: How can we figure out our beloved sister, Dian? Can we really identify with her, if her experiences are outside of ours? Dare we hush-hush such people because they sound too “gutsy” for us?

Maybe some aspects of the Church need to be left in God’s hands – like this one. And just maybe it’s okay to say, “I simply do not understand the magnitude of it all.” And leave it there. .. and get on with the responsibilities we KNOW God has given us.

I especially address that comment to pastors and church leaders, because there is likely no group of people more unsettled by the possibility that there may be some lowly members in their midst who hear better from God than they do, and may have spiritual insight that they themselves do not possess.

Diane

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sermonindex


crsschk wrote:
...By the way, pray for this fool. There is one thing my Ma used to tell me when I was younger; "I don't want a bunch of people weeping at my funeral!" And I want to honor that.
[b][color=0066CC]
Bless you, bless you all!!!! I am so amazed at the sheer depth in this thread, and for the most part on this forum as a whole - others visited have been nothing like. Such sharing of painful and profound heartaches; a moderator pouring out his own heart in response, instead of just reminding us of the rules now and again!

I'm certain many of us will be with you in spirit tomorrow,(2Cor 1:3-4) and with the sisters who have spoken out the Word so courageously in spite of opposition

Jeannette
[/color][/b]

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PaulWest

Mike,

My deepest condolences, brother.

Brother, feel free to PM. You know I am a funeral director (one of the men who came to get your mom could have been me, this is part of my job).

There's nothing I or anyone can say that will take the hurt away right now. The hurt comes and goes in waves, like the sea waves, flowing in and ebbing out only to flow back in. Brother, I want you to know that this is a very precious time in the Lord for you. I cannot express this enough. You cannot possibly imagine how much potential you have for growth right now. Though you're suffering with tears from tasting death's bitter fruit, you are actually in a position to be very blessed! Let me explain.

Mike, you need to know that this type of heartbreaking affliction is the most intense you'll [i]ever[/i] experience. The only other thing that can compare would be losing a spouse or child. These are very, very key points in your walk, where flaming doors are thrown wide open and you are beckoned to walk through the thresholds one-by-one with Jesus. These are doorways of transcendental growth in Christ. It's during these times of tragic affliction where you have your greatest opportunity to grow in the Lord, in wisdom exponentially, in grace, in knowledge of Him. Only afflictions of this nature can allow the corresponding potential of deep growth which God is offering you at this time. But know this: These doorways will not always remain open. In time, your grief will diminish, the painful edge will abate, and you'll be left with a scaring numbness. By this time, those fiery doorways are closed.

Mike, not many Christians realize the astounding opportunity to grow during these tragic times. The most impressionable times for the Spirit of God to commune with the spirit of man are found within the excruciating torture chambers of death and sorrows and afflictions - brother, it's not during times of mirth and laughter. This is why Jesus Christ said blest are those that mourn. The greatest, deepest, and most transforming truths I have ever received from God have always been during periods of intense grief. Surrender utterly, therefore, and bless the Lord in pools of hurting tears and allow God to speak into the massive, tore-up hole in your heart where the Redwood tree of your precious mom once stood.

Learn this truth, brother: The bigger the tree, the deeper the roots, and the deeper the roots the deeper the hole and the more ground is tore up when the tree is knocked over. The greater the tree, the more of gaping, raw hole it leaves behind when uprooted. In the same way, the deeper the wisdom and consolation of God must go to fill the hole in those mysterious inner depths of your spirit. And when the ground scars over, the wisdom, truth and understanding will remain embedded where the roots once were. When God uproots, He replants with something far greater and inexpressibly superb: the priceless knowledge of Him and a greater revelation of eternal hope which could otherwise not be implanted without first having the cataclysmic removal by death.

So, grieve, brother. Grieve and grow and be forever changed in Jesus' Name.

Brother Paul

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Christinyou

Me to Mike, Been there and done that.

It seems that we don't ever have enough in us to be able to bring forth what is truly inside. I have no word to covey how or what to say to comfort you, but that is my desire.

Romans 8:26-28 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

In Christ: Phillip

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Spitfire

But I still believe that sooner or later we will get to the very ... guts of this business if we can just allow ourselves to be put through the process and that will take some guts as well.

Mikey, I love you. I love you,lots. Dian

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crsschk

You saints are [i]precious[/i]!
Taken all of this to heart...

The Lord knows

C
crsschk

My friends ... Thank you for praying. So much I wish to say ... and so much I do not know how or if I even should say... Not that that has ever stopped me before :-)

Quite a bit spilled over here;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14729&post_id=114318&order=1&viewmode=flat&pid=114005&forum=44#114318] A broken heart[/url]

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sermonindex

I just really came "onto" this thread, and a single question came to my mind:

what broken vessel, burnt out, burnt over, humbled and thrashed, laying facedown on the ground would ever ever ever DEIGN to call himself a "prophet"?...or to foretell or forthtell something the Lord has given him, as even term such words "prophecy"?

hear me, if a man (or woman) SAYS they are a "prophet" or giving you "prophecy", run very far from this person.

It is the Holy Ghost that will testify TO YOU, that what you hear or read is prophetic, not any human. A true prophet will NEVER proclaim himself as such.

Only Jesus is gonna tell you this.

Sorry for inserting myself so late in the game.

Mike B. I been with you in prayer and in spirit, my love agape to you, may your heart suffering and burden be light.

neil

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BenWilliams

what broken vessel, burnt out, burnt over, humbled and thrashed, laying facedown on the ground would ever ever ever DEIGN to call himself a "prophet"?...or to foretell or forthtell something the Lord has given him, as even term such words "prophecy"?


Acts 21:10
And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.

Acts 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

It is a good thing that Agabus did not believe as you did, or the Christians that were in Israel would have been slaughtered, rather than heeding the word of God. All you have to do to find evidence of this occurrence is read about it in church history.

Also we find that the Apostle John did not "run away from people who called themselves prophets", let's see what he did:

I John 4:1-3 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

John believed that we should test the prophet by whether or not what they say comes true, and whether or not they confess Christ has come in the flesh.

It is a dangerous place indeed for any man to walk that shuns a prophet merely for calling himself such. Paul called himself an Apostle, but he was not one of the original twelve. Was he a deceiver? Or has the work of the Spirit continued on even unto today?
I stand by the latter.

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Spitfire

A true prophet will NEVER proclaim himself as such.

Why does everyone keep saying this? I don't understand. Where does this thinking come from, Brother? I am a prophet, but if nobody wants to listen to what I have to say, that's fine. In fact, I pretty much expect that. Does a teacher deny that they are a teacher? A pastor deny that they are a pastor? What's up with this thinking? Something ain't right about it. I'm telling you. And I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, Neil. I just need to say this. Love, Dian

S
sermonindex

it was others that called Agabus a "prophet", all he did was to engage in the word of fortelling that the Lord gave him.

Now when they heard this word, the Spirit within them testified to the truth of what this prophet said.

and "run away" doesnt imply a sense of fear, its my way of saying that when you DO test the Spirit within you and see and feel that what this "prophet" is saying is false, get away from that person.

there are two utterances a prophet can make foretelling and forthtelling, foretelling is predictions, forthtelling is testifying the Word of God.

what you might term "to shun", I term as wisdom that comes thru the Holy Spirit as to what is true and what is false. and thank God, He has given me the ability to veer very very far away from the false "prophets" and their ministry of the flesh, pride, greed and religiousity. I miss nothing, I got me a Bible and I read it.

oh, there are prophets today, yes indeed, but tread carefully.

lightly, neil

S
sermonindex

bartle said

It is the Holy Ghost that will testify TO YOU, that what you hear or read is prophetic, not any human.
I agree with this statement.

However, please take a look at KingJimmy's thread in the Lounge called 'The Spirit of Prophecy', and see what you make of it so far.

I still have not had time to go back and read the first response there, thoroughly, slowly and take it in, but, I recall that the apostle Paul said he had seen the Lord.... 1 Cor 9:1 ... (and he didn't mean in the flesh), partly as a way of justifying his right to speak. I think this is what RonB is getting at. However, we still have to take Paul's word for it. And, we have to believe each others' claims of 'seeing', or 'hearing' from God in whatever way they do - and to receive the word of God as it comes to us through them - for we answer to Him.

I would add that there are significant differences in the ways believers describe their encounters with the Lord, and your 'the Holy Ghost will testify to YOU' is appropriate in discerning who has 'seen', who has 'heard' and who comes to a silent understanding which can only be put into words later, by the person who received understanding.

I realise these are only a few possibilities, and like Spitfire, I'm not trying to pick a fight over any of this. I'm just trying [u]clear a space[/u] where individual believers can function in their gifts, without attracting criticism or censure [i]from each other[/i] for being [i]themselves in God[/i].

Unless we can give this amount of elbow room to each other, trusting that God will correct our / their foibles if and when necessary, any hope of Body ministry - open worship - worship sharing - with its essential component of [i]submitting ourselves to one another in the fear of God[/i] (Eph 5:21), risks falling by the wayside.

S
sermonindex

you are a prophet, Praise God! I encourage you to walk into this gifting with love.

I read your "400 year" forthtelling, and praise God, you spoke truth.

Oh my sister, I'm not picking a fight with you, I'd rather take a hammer to this computer than to pick a fight with you beloved sister. Heavens no!!

But what I feel in the Spirit is this: you don't HAVE to term yourself a prophet, you say the words God has given you and it will be so readily apparent that you inhabit this high and holy calling that others will recognize you as a prophet and term you as such.

and I thought the "400 year demonic church" forthtelling was prophetic, and true and sad, bitter wormwood.

but hear me, loved one, the lot of the true prophet on this earth is lonely and bleak, we read what happens to the true prophet of God, they are shunned, persecuted, sawn in two, live in caves and holes. They exist not for the praise of accolades of man, but to speak the Word of God.

Fight the good fight, forget the popularity contests, when you start forthtelling the church has to its true condition, watch the barbs and arrows come flying your way, which as I have read you have already recieved. Hard as it may be, rejoice in them.

One brother, Ben Williams out of Texas brought up Paul, Paul was a lonely man with a small band of fellow saints around him, these churches he formed were probably small gatherings, and look at the beatings he took, he outlines them in 2nd Corinthians. Read His last epistle, 2nd Timothy, wrote in dungeon, so cold that he asked that a cloak he left in another city be brought to him, along with precious scrolls and parchments so he could read of the Word of God.....and thru his ministry, he only had a few he could count on, Timothy, Silas and Luke. In other words, you wouldnt be seeing him participating on the televised charade we are cursed with today, to wit: TBN...you wouldnt see Paul sharing a stage with that fleshling Benny Hinn. If Paul, in the flesh even got near Benny Hinn, he'd probably tell him, you're going go blind for three days for the mess you're serving up "in the name of god".

Look at Jeremiah, the lot of his physical life, lonely, weeping and with only one trusted person with him, Baruch. Tossed down a cistern, beaten, yet this prophet wrote one of the highest most holy soaring Books of all, the Book of Consolation Jeremiah 30-33, that gives us what the New Covenant shall be.

True prophets are killed, that is fact...and why not? because the Message they bring, the pretenders, the fleshlings, the pharisees of yesterday and today cant bear to hear the truth of their sin and shortcomings, and the general unprofitableness of their churches with their 400 different demoninations, 400 diffrent doctrines, their lies and their hypocrisy splayed out for all to see.

What happpend to the High Priestly prayer of John 17? Its a shame, its a sin, men cutting up the Body of Christ with their various denominations, with their incessant meetings and budgets and headsets as they "preach" atop a platform, cut into a city, a devil city called the vatican with the riches of the world stashed beneath it in vaults lorded over by some men who are homosexual child predators, calling themselves "priests", "monsignors" "cardinals"
"bishops", "pope". and its not only the roman church, look at the unholy mess surrounding Colorado Springs, Ted Haggard and his NAE, James Dobson and his foul dominionist "focus on the family ministry", I've watched the man, INTENTLY, testing the Spirit. FOCUS ON JESUS, you empty well! Not how many times you get an invite to the white house. I hear this man speak in English, but I hear the voice of one of the sanhedrin tormenting the Lord. When I hear Pat Robertson coming out with yet another "prophetic prediction" or prophetic forthtelling, ie , that Arik Sharon was stricken by stroke because he turned the Gaza strip (which was a good calculated military strategy) and that Arik was stricken because "god" was punishing him for doing that or robertson calling for the assassination of an elected leader of a sovereign nation, it doesnt take a whole lot of discernement to realize how FAR off this man is from being a "prophet". The Holy Spirit testifies to this in me, and I don't care one whit who disagrees with me.

Hear me, beloved sister Dian, I pray for the day, when they make the Church illegal in america, when they smash up every single church building, when they make possesion of a Bible a crime punishable by death.....oh, there will be a "church", but it will be a nationalistic civic form of "christianity", and if you aint with it, you will be hunted down and you will die. For of course the dominionists and their hellhounds want no seperation between "church" and "state", they want to marry up the Body of Christ with a whore, but they will fail, because beaneath the rubble of all these "churches", underground and in houses, and basements, the True Church will grow like a mustard seed, and instead of fussing and arguing over Bible versions, ANY Bible that can be procured will be precious, as it should be now.

rome did it, what makes us different?

you're a prophet.

in Jesus' love, neil

B
BenWilliams

Thank you for reitterating your stance and making it much clearer how you feel about the topic.

My concern has only been that so many people are against anyone calling themselves what they are.

I do agree that someone should not generally use a title like prophet, or apostle, to verify the message that they speak. But in the same way, Paul verifies his office, and then verifies his message by his office.

I just see all around me people who have had a bad experience with so called prophets or apostles, and then they shy away entirely from those aspects of the Spirit.

I can see that your motives are totally genuine in your wish for men to maintain humility in their speaking, and I agree that it is definitely necessary. But I do believe that it is a false humility not to recognize an office or gifting that God has given you. That does not mean then that we broadcast it to everyone we meet. I feel like you in that it is wisdom to simply speak, and let people either believe the message or refuse it.

P
philologos

However, we still have to take Paul's word for it. And, we have to believe each others' claims of 'seeing', or 'hearing' from God in whatever way they do - and to receive the word of God as it comes to us through them - for we answer to Him.

We take "Paul's word for it" because Paul's words were endorsed by Peter and Peter's words were endorsed by the Lord who promised a unique equipping of the Spirit for the original apostles.

And we certainly don't "just have to believe each other's claims". That would be lunacy. I certainly don't believe many of the claims that I have read on this forum.

I have not 'believed' any of the claims to be 'a prophet' that I have read in these forums but I do believe that we have had 'prophets' who have contributed to these forums. I could make a list if pressed of people who have claimed to be prophets in these forums and whose claims I cannot believe. I doubt that it would helpful or pretty!

Spitfire's comment about 'pastors' is an indication of the difficulties that we have when we assign role titles to individuals. There is no record of any individual using the word 'pastor' as a personal title in the NT, nor is there of 'prophet'. Prophets and pastors were recognized on the strength of their contribution to the church of God and not on the basis of their self-styling. The danger is that people use these titles to carve out territory for themselves and to claim authority in that territory on the basis of their self-appointments. There is no basis for this in the New Testament.

S
sermonindex


Dear Ron,

I understand that you quote the part of what I said which worries you most (perhaps), to add some of your own balance, but do you [i]never[/i] hear the word of God through a brother or a sister?

Perhaps I was not clear enough. I am trying to say that WHEN we hear God speak through a brother or a sister in Christ, THAT FACT endorses them further, as brethren in Christ.

I certainly didn't mean (and I thought I had given my thoughts a clear enough context), either that we believe [i]everything[/i] a brother or sister says [i]because[/i] we believe they are a brother / sister, or, that we do [i]not[/i] look for other signs of the life of Christ in them.

With reference to the claims I, you, or anyone else might make to have 'seen' the Lord, or to 'hear' Him speak, at what point do you personally, believe such claims?

Or is it quite simply that in your mind there is always a question mark hanging over them?

I do believe that we have had 'prophets' who have contributed to these forums. I could make a list if pressed of people who have claimed to be prophets in these forums and whose claims I cannot believe.
In this quote from your post, are you not claiming discernment?

On what basis [i]should[/i] we believe you?

EDIT: Ron, if I had put that sentence you quoted from me, at the end of my post, would it have seemed less inflammatory to you?

S
Spitfire

And we certainly don't "just have to believe each other's claims". That would be lunacy.

I totally agree with this! I always judge a man by what I see with my spiritual eyes, and even then I question myself. But...as for me, I've had to accept the call of God and my life and the pain that comes with it. I don't go around announcing to people that I'm a prophet and I never preface something I have to say with that word. I have announced that I'm a prophet here because I've gotten pretty fed up with that innuendo of, "No prophet claims to be a prophet." That seems ridiculous to me. I realize there are alot of people claiming to be a prophet who don't know God from a hole in the ground, but the same is true of every other calling.

There is a scripture that I believe is relevant here. It says in Matthew 10:41, "He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward..."KJV.
Here's the Living Bible version of that same verse: "If you welcome a prophet because he is a man of God, you will be given the same reward a prophet gets..."

It seems to me that it is [i]very[/i] important to identify prophets and to simply give them the respect that God does, otherwise, why would Jesus have said this?

Ron, perhaps you should start naming names and help us poor folks out so we can render honor where honor is due. Or not. Sincerely, Dian.

K
KingJimmy

There is nothing wrong with any Christian identifying themselves as an apostle, prophet, evangelist, or pastor/teacher if that is indeed so what they are, and it is the ministry they are going about doing. The only exception to this would be if they are using the ministry God has given them to exploit, manipulate, and/or control others. Such as saying, "Well, you should believe me because I am this or that..."

S
Spitfire

Hear me, beloved sister Dian, I pray for the day, when they make the Church illegal in america, when they smash up every single church building, when they make possesion of a Bible a crime punishable by death.....oh, there will be a "church", but it will be a nationalistic civic form of "christianity", and if you aint with it, you will be hunted down and you will die. For of course the dominionists and their hellhounds want no seperation between "church" and "state", they want to marry up the Body of Christ with a whore, but they will fail, because beaneath the rubble of all these "churches", underground and in houses, and basements, the True Church will grow like a mustard seed, and instead of fussing and arguing over Bible versions, ANY Bible that can be procured will be precious, as it should be now.

My goodness, Neil! I've never heard anyone talk like this! You actually pray for this day? Oh my! Perhaps I'll join you. I hadn't thought to actually pray that it would come to pass. Seems like I remember something about praying that we would endure those days...what's that scripture about praying that our flight be not in the winter? Dear God! Brother, you are out there and I LIKE it! Dian.

J
Jimbabwean

Before you post your next prophecy could you please share with us something that the Holy Spirit has shown you concerning the person of Jesus Christ?

I find that when dealing with the matter of tithing, this concept of the person of Jesus comes up. My understanding is that the more we grasp the concept of the New Covenant, the less need we feel to tithe. It seems that central to our understanding of things like Who is Melchizedek, is the concept of the New Covenant. So, I see significance in asking a question like the above qoute.

P
philologos

On what basis should we believe you?

I sometimes introduce myself by saying "Don't believe a word I say... unless the scripture says the same"


do you never hear the word of God through a brother or a sister

Frequenlty, but not, so far, through any who have self-styled themselves as prophets. I also hear the word of God through his enemies at times.

P
philologos

Oh my! Perhaps I'll join you. I hadn't thought to actually pray that it would come to pass. Seems like I remember something about praying that we would endure those days...what's that scripture about praying that our flight be not in the winter?

We are never to pray for persecution but for peace; [color=0000ff]“Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, [b]that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence[/b]. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (1Tim 2:1-4 KJV)

“I will therefore that the men pray in every place, lifting up pious hands, [b]without wrath or reasoning[/b].” (1Tim 2:8 DRBY)[/color]Anger, and apparently, reasoning disqualify prayer.

S
sermonindex


RonB said

I also hear the word of God through his enemies at times.
Amen. I think this is what I'm trying to get at ....

You, I and any other who is listening for God's word, will hear it and recognise it, regardless of who is speaking.

This is something of what I meant when I said this in my post yesterday

we have to believe each others' claims of 'seeing', or 'hearing' from God in whatever way they do - [b]and to receive the word of God as it comes to us through them[/b] - for we answer to Him.
By this I did not mean that everything a believer says can be taken to to be 'the word of God' to the hearer.

I meant what can be inferred from your statement, that it is the [i]hearer[/i] who decides whether God has spoken to him / her or not.

Recognising that God is speaking is surely one of the earliest experiences of a person, even before they have come to Christ.

God Himself [i]knows[/i] what we have 'heard', and whether we are giving His word - HIM - an appropriately faithful response.

C
Christinyou

Matthew 10:40-41 He that receiveth you receiveth Me,(Jesus) and he that receiveth Me(Jesus) receiveth Him(The Father)that sent Me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a Prophet(Jesus)shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a Righteous Man(Jesus)shall receive a Righteous Man's reward.

What is the Reward that Jesus received? Is He not sitting at the right hand of the Father? What is a prophets reward and a righteous man's reward? Are we not prophets because of the Prophet that is in us? Are we not righteous because of the righteous One in us?

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Is this not our glory, not in our flesh as prophets or righteous men but, of God are we in Christ Jesus the only true prophet and righteous One. We are all prophets by the True Prophet that is in us. We are all righteous by the only true Righteous One, Jesus Christ, whom God Himself has made Him in us who we truly are, That is a Christ person, A Christian, A Prophet, and all that Christ is in us, even son's of the Living God, by the Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ, we are born again, new creatures in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That is why we are to check each other by each other and 2 or 3 others and make sure we are being prophets of God in Christ Jesus, and not prophets of self or our old father Satan.

Rejoice that we are all prophets in Christ Jesus and be not puffed up in the flesh with the title of Prophet, or any other proclamation of who the Christ in us truly is. It is, "Christ in us who is our Glory",

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Being our glory let us seek those things; Colossians 3:1-10 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Love to all of you who by the Christ in them are all prophets and much, much more.

A prophet of God by the Prophet Jesus Christ that is in me Phillip, I don't glory in me, I glory in the Christ that is in me. I am nothing, In Him I am all He has made me, and seeking to be what God My Father intended me to be; as Christ, this being before the foundation of the world. Is this not prophecy?

In Christ

S
SDE

Are we not prophets because of the Prophet that is in us?

I'm not sure that I agree with that statement. Oh that we all were true prophets! Then maybe the church wouldn't be in the sorry state that it is in.

No, not all are called to be prophets, just as not all are called to be teachers, pastors, evangelists, exhorters, etc.

D
dohzman

I agree with sdc that I disagree with the above statement. Calling is what we are or become, it is a part of our very nature, like tea in hot water its is inseperable. Truely the giftings and calling of God are without repentance. I rember reading and often reflect on a story in the books of Kings where a certain unnamed prophet was sent to pronounce judgement and told certain instructions, in the story what has always been a warning to me is 1) how easily he was decieved by a blind prophet and 2) how God could use a blind prophet to bring judgement to this unnamed prophet after the old blind prophet lied to him. I guess I have to say , O'Lord your ways are not my ways, search me and see if there be any unclean way in me and lead me in your wonderful path of salvation, for your glory and your name sake, amen. God bless Bro. Daryl

R
roadsign

If Jesus Christ is born again in us, do we all not have the capacity to be prophets

There are two things that trouble me by this thought. First, this reasoning leads to a conclusion that is not drawn from the scriptures, and thus does not reflect God’s intentions or the reality of the Body. The second, is that it DOES reflect the value of our society: the globalization of truth, and the tendency to blend everyone into one common denominator: mediocrity. I’d like to address that second issue, as it relates to the prophetic calling, I believe. Hang on…

In our modern schools truly gifted students are typically squeezed into the big “factory” system. Conformity is a higher premium than excellence and advanced potential among certain members. I once heard a parent comment ( re the possibilty of a Home Studies course) that some children have an UNFAIR advantage in that they had learned homemaking skills at home, while others in the class did not. See here? We don’t want those among us who know something the rest of us don’t. Why! They might get the higher marks (the advantage)!


In our churches it has become taboo to accept the fact that some have gifts that others do not. So, we squeeze out the truly gifted and settle for the mediocre – which is just what our CCM industry caters to. God forbid that a Bach resides in our congregations. And while we’re at it, let’s settle for cheep mass-produced trinkets rather than display true art.

In our churches it is assumed that no one can have greater insight that anyone else. After all, we’re all “anointed by the same Spirit” I remember many Bible studies where everyone’s opinion was equally valid. There was no authority – our opinions were our highest law.

Consider our voting practices in church: We assume that everyone has the same degree of discernment, and everyone aught to exercise their right to express their opinion. Nothing like this is seen this anywhere in the Bible – other than as a bad flaw in human character (Proverbs)

Far too often I hear globalized assumptions arising from the pulpit: “We here are all lights for Jesus” We’re all…. … you name it.”


The tragedy of this trend towards mediocrity and globalization is that we can’t be honest. Nor can we grow as a body. We can’t humbly accept the fact that someone else may know something that I don’t, and I may need that person.

To say that all are prophets, teachers, or whatever is simply untrue. It may make everyone feel good – believing that they are just as enabled as anyone else, but it does our churches no favor.

Diane

S
SDE

The second, is that it DOES reflect the value of our society: the globalization of truth, and the tendency to blend everyone into one common denominator: mediocrity.

So true, Diane, so true.

I really appreciated reading your post. You have encouraged me in a way that you will never know this side of heaven.

C
Christinyou

Quote:

"""'m not sure that I agree with that statement. Oh that we all were true prophets! Then maybe the church wouldn't be in the sorry state that it is in.

No, not all are called to be prophets, just as not all are called to be teachers, pastors, evangelists, exhorters, etc"""

Who is the distributor of the gifts? Is not the Holy Spirit the director and CEO. He distributes the gifts as He pleases, not us. The Holy Spirit can use a person that is in Christ for any of the gifts listed for Jesus Christ that in us is the Gifted One. Who is the Gifted One of all Prophecy? It is not Elijah or Moses etc, It is the Holy Spirit who took men chosen of God and spoke through them. Now that Christ is in us, Who is the Holy Spirit to teach us about? The Holy Spirit is not here for Himself, He is only Hear to bring forth Christ and if the Holy Spirit is the dispenser of the Gifts then who must the Gifts come from? Jesus Christ is the Gifted One and He that is in you can be if we allow Him to be prophet, teacher, healer, and all else that the Holy Spirit can us by the Christ that is in us to bring forth the Body of Christ and to build His Church on the Rock, that is the Revelation of Jesus Christ by the Father to each of us. Being a prophet is not our gift it is the gift of God in Jesus Christ and is given and distributed in whom it please Him. This keeps the power out of mans hands and puts it in the Holy Spirits hands for He will not make mistakes in the Gifts distribution, of all the gifts, in his timing, and for The Father's purpose.

How bad has man misused the gifts? Why, because he thinks they are his. Sorry, not true.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He will guide us in to Prophecy by the Prophet Jesus Christ who is birthed in us.

In Christ: Phillip

S
SDE

Phillip,

Your understanding of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit is only partial. Yes, it is true that the Holy Spirit Who dwells in all true believers distributes the gifts but that does not mean that all believers have received the same gifts.

"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of heaing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills." 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 (NASB)

If I understand you correctly, based on what you wrote I think you would interpret this text in Corinthians to mean that all believers can expect to expect to receive all gifts at various times in their lives as believers. If that is the case, I would agree to a certain extent. God does distribute the gifts as necessary. I have heard of some who are not prophets, prophesying. However, your statements seem to deny that the Lord appoints certain believers to certain offices of ministry. That is not true. He definitely does make appointments because as we see later in the chapter it says,

"For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, 'Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,' it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, 'Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,' it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'; or again the head to the feet, 'I have no need of you.'" verses 14-21

And later beginning with verse 27:

"Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?" verses 27-30

I am afraid the doctrine that you are embracing is essentially saying that we have no need for prophets because all believers are prophets. That is just not true. Since prophets are essentially seers, it is like saying to the eyes of the body, 'I have no need for you.' That is self-defeating. It's like gouging out one's own eyes.

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Christinyou

"Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?" verses 27-30

Yes you have hit the nail on the head. It is God who appoints through the Holy Spirit the Gifts of the Spirit. Again if the Holy Spirit is hear to distribute the Gifts as He plaeases, then how can we say that what you accuse me of saying that all are capable of being prophets. I must say that if a prophet is needed and God chooses to use any believer, at that time he will be a prophet. Not because of the person, but because of God and His pleasing to use who ever He wants, by the Christ in us. So we all can be prophets by the Christ that is in us. Christ said, (again) "The Holy Spirit will only speak or do what Jesus tells Him to do. Why, because Jesus Christ is the Gifted One, If He is not then my statement that we are all prophets because of the Christ that is in us is not true. Are all prophets?
No, not at the same time, and all have never been, but we all have the capability of being prophets by the Christ that is in us. Why are we to covet the better gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts : and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way .

If we were not capable of all the gifts why should be covet the better ones. There is a better way than all the Gifts of the Spirit. That is to love. Why Love? All the Gifts will work in Love, they will work for the body of Christ and each other when all we want is the best that God has, that is Love, the Christ in us is Love. That is why the Spirit chooses to use the Gifts in the Power of Jesus Christ that is in us, in love, or we are all clanging cymbals.

I am not a prophet. Christ is the Prophet. I don't choose when to prophesy. The Holy Spirit is the One, if it pleases God and Christ directs the Gift and the Holy Spirit hears and is the power and movement of that Gift in whom and when it benefits the Body of Christ His Church.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Gifts are in Christ, The guiding of all truth is in the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit speaks unless He Hears it to be spoken. No Gift can be given words unless it is spoken by God the Father or Jesus Christ and is given to the Holy Spirit to speak in the believer. A Prophet is speaking By the Power of the Holy Spirit by the Christ that is in us. Else it is a self speaking, not a prophet of God. Christ makes the Gift His Choice by the Holy Spirit. Who's church are we in?

In Christ: Phillip-

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If we were not capable of all the gifts why should be covet the better ones

I challenge your line of reasoning, Phillip. Potential and reality are two different things.

Since I am a musician I will use the analogy of music. I believe that all can sing (or could have if they had not been told they were monotones when kids). But that doesn’t make all musicians. Just because one can sing a hymn in church, play a song on the piano, or play three chords on the guitar does not make that person a musician (though they may believe himself to be a musician).

I say that because I have all too often met those who have an overly inflated view about their talent. It’s because they only ever swim in small fish-bowls. On the other hand, those with true talent tend to down-size their ability. That’s because they have been swimming in the ocean.

In fact, just yesterday I received a call from someone who is singing at a funeral today, and I am to accompany him. I don’t know him at all. His claim about himself did not mean a lot to me (based on experience). I had to graciously ask a few questions in order to establish just where his potential ACTUALLY lies in order to know how best to support him. (of course, this works both ways, and the real truth won't show until we rehearse together) See where I am going?

Sure all believers, even unbelievers may have prophesied at times, but that sure doesn’t qualify them to attach the label “prophet” to themselves. Even king Saul prophesied on an occasion.

Just because one can lead a bible study doesn't make him a pastor.

Watch them labels, brother!!! Don't take the Word beyond what it actually says!
Diane

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Okay, I admit, I sometimes use the forum to sound off my beefs. And here is one of my biggest beefs: The indiscriminate practice of attaching labels to people. I see it in the music field often, and I see it in relations to labels such as pastor, prophet, etc

I well remember a pastor who wasn’t doing well. In fact, he did not seem to have a pastor’s heart, and had some serious personal issues. One day I asked him how he received his call. He told me that as a young adult someone told him that he’d make a good pastor just by the way he was so committed to door-to-door evangelism. In other words, He NEVER heard from God on the matter. The outcome was most tragic. He fell into disillusionment, and to this day has never recovered. Really, his life was ruined, all because of this wretched tendency to attach labels.

(Remember, that once you view yourself as someone “special” it is extremely difficult to allow yourself to be just human again. So you hide all your fears, insecurities, secret sins, and then down the road it all falls apart.)

Here’s another sad story: I know a man who had a zeal for sharing mediations in church. He was told that he was a prophet by someone in his congregation (who had no clue what a prophet was) One day I was at his church and heard his “word”. It was clear that he was not in tune to the Spirit or the people. He was in his own little world. Well, the label got to his head, and you can guess the rest of the story. Tragic, tragic!

This all begs a question: How do people come to the belief that they are prophets, pastors, evangelists, or whatever. Is it because someone told them? Did they view themselves as having the calling because they have done a few things that resemble the position – like prophesy, preach, etc. That is very shaky criteria. And once a label gets attached to your mind, it tends to stay stuck there.


Every single prophet in the bible had a specific and undeniable call from the Lord. And they typically did not want that role. Jeremiah said, “I am too young.’ Jer. 1:6 Moses said, am not eloquent” Ex. 4:19 , Amos said, No one in my family has been a prophet.”Amos 7: 14-15, and Simon Peter said, “I am not good enough.” Lk. 5:8 Paul asked, “Who is equal to such a task?” 2 Cor. 2:16 These people all had a true fear of the work.

Jesus said, “As the FATHER has sent me, so I am sending you.” It is our Lord himself who through insistence and commission helps one overcome reluctance. It is a dangerous thing to launch someone or oneself out into a mission that is not clearly led by God.

God equips and makes the prophets, and he empowers them as HE chooses, and WHEN he chooses. Let’s admit, launching out ahead of God is a very strong tendency for most of us. But if we, regardless of our calling, fail to submit to God, wait in prayer in our “Upper Room”, we can be sure to meet a terrible defeat down the road.

There is no need to throw out the concept behind the labels entirely, or wash everyone with the same stroke of paint. We just need to take a step back and stop playing God. Let God be God, and we can just be ourselves, and let others be themselves. Leave it there.

Diane

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crsschk

The indiscriminate practice of attaching labels to people.
In other words, He NEVER heard from God on the matter.

And again those words come to the fore, assumption and presumption. I could not more readily agree with your beefs Dian, they are my own as well.

This all begs a question: How do people come to the belief that they are prophets, pastors, evangelists, or whatever. Is it because someone told them? Did they view themselves as having the calling because they have done a few things that resemble the position – like prophesy, preach, etc. That is very shaky criteria. And once a label gets attached to your mind, it tends to stay stuck there.

It is amazing the things that the self is gratified by, even of our own beloved brethren with all their particular perception, notice, observation ... a ready agreement is not [i]the[/i] arbitrator or rather should not be the place of decision making as you well stated. Even as it pertains to this subject of prophet\\prophet am instantly reminded of ... in fact, how succinctly all that you state is summarized;

[i]And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.

Then Paul answered, [b]What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus[/b].

And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, [u]The will of the Lord be done[/u][/i].
Act 21:8-14

Did they get the 'prophecy' wrong? Hardly. Yet Paul had already set his face and wasn't about to be thwarted by being [i][b]told[/b][/i] anything. At least in this instance for all the right care of those speaking to his benefit, their concern for his personal welfare even by way of prophecy... "[i]we ceased[/i]".

How different from what the modern day 'prophet' is too often preoccupied with, strutting and explaining, defending ... [i]their self[/i]. Think there is just as much in being [i]told[/i] something and latching on to it as there is to a certain clamoring after [i]position[/i] over office. Think we are far better off listening to our perceived enemies than we know.

There is no need to throw out the concept behind the labels entirely, or wash everyone with the same stroke of paint. We just need to take a step back and stop playing God. Let God be God, and we can just be ourselves, and let others be themselves. Leave it there.

Absolutely. Even as was mentioned by Spitfire earlier and yourself recently ... Maybe what I am trying to say is the difference between being 'known as' and just flat out [i]being[/i] ...

Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; [b]for I [u]do[/u] always those things that please him[/b].

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dohzman prayed

I guess I have to say , O'Lord your ways are not my ways, search me and see if there be any unclean way in me and lead me in your wonderful path of salvation, for your glory and your name sake, amen.
You echoed a prayer I prayed last week, here, bro, and so I was provoked again to pray it today, with significant results. Thank you for being one step ahead, and showing the way.

Might have some confessing to do later in this thread.....

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Christinyou

Amen.

The same goes for all labeled and numbered gifts of the body of Christ. It is Him that is the Prophet, He that is in us is the user of these gifts for His Glory. Nothing we do is a building up of the body of Christ unless it is of, through, in, and by the Christ that is in us. He is the One that knows exactly what to prophesy, that usually comes from His Word. We only need to be in the attitude of "Here I Am Lord Send Me."

That is why I don't believe individuals are assigned the label of Prophet. Then the prophet is glorified instead of the real Prophet Himself. The same goes for all the rest of the Gifts of the body of Christ. It is His Body and He knows exactly what He want it to be and hear.
He is the One that, "Gave Some to be". Even God labels His old testament prophets Himself, a prophet of the most High God, because God has used him for His Glory.

He has established gifts in the Church, His Body. He has given the Holy Spirit complete governing over them. Most of the time I miss what God want me to do in the gifts, until He has chastened me and said, and shown me what I missed.

I am learning to be His disciple by the mistakes I make. His chastening is for my good and to give me more understanding of Who He is and Why His Plan of Christ in me is of such importance.

A music teacher may be gifted, but who does the gift come from, but we all are lifted by the gift of music, especially God's Music Gifted.

In Christ: Phillip

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That is why I don't believe individuals are assigned the label of Prophet. Then the prophet is glorified instead of the real Prophet Himself.
Hi Phillip,

I think members of the Church, might recognise the gifts another person has been given by name, for two main reasons.

The first reason would be to endorse God's work in their life.

The second reason would be to acknowledge God's calling on their life, and assist them in serving Him in that calling - even if it is by leaving them to get on with it.

Lastly, anyone who wants to get a job done, will use the best materials, tools and workmen available.

Your point about the person taking glory away from God, by giving themselves a status, is valid, and I'm sure you've seen this happening, but, the cure for abuse is [i]right use[/i], not abstinence from use. Therefore, I would encourage anyone who has a calling or gifting to use it, AND to give [i]GOD[/i] the GLORY.

However, Paul says we have this treasure in earthen vessels, and there can be a tendency to doubt the earthen vessel can be changed by the treasure within it. I dispute this thought, for what use is the end of Sin on the cross, if the earthly vessel cannot now be changed from glory to glory, as it lays hold on that truth, and lives free from sin?

By how much more, we who partake of His life should be changed by the exercise of our faith (including when we use our gifts)?

We [i]are[/i] being glorified (sanctified) but there is a world of difference between being a workman approved by God because we obey Him, and one who lives to impress his fellow man, primarily, because of pride. I think, unless the 'fellow man' has had a change of heart, (that is, a new heart), the two are mutually exclusive.

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Christinyou

Hi Lynn,

I think you have been with me in Christ long enough to understand where I am coming from. I made this statement to promote and extract your type of post. It is not me that is the prophet, it is Christ in me that is the Prophet and it is Him coming forth as me when prophesying. That is the mind set We must have and in that we will know and recognize the false prophet.

Thanks for your Post, we as always are fairly close to the agreeing truth of Christ in us. Isn't God Great?

In Christ: Phillip

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Christinyou wrote:
...It is not me that is the prophet, it is Christ in me that is the Prophet and it is Him coming forth as me when prophesying. That is the mind set We must have and in that we will know and recognize the false prophet...

In Christ: Phillip


[b]Amen, Phillip!

"Christ in you" That truth is so needed as an essential practical truth of our Christian walk.
What He doesn't say through us isn't worth saying. What His Spirit doesn't pray through us just bounces off the ceiling - mere words without power. What He doesn't do in and through us is "wood, hay and stubble"

How hard some of us find it to come to that truth in practice - even when we know the theory!

I speak of myself. So many years before even beginning to trust Him in me. So many struggles, "striving to stop striving" and "cease from my own works and enter in to His rest" (Heb 4).

But anything less is self-righteousness (= self trying to be righteous)

In Him

Jeannette [/b]

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Compton

...here is one of my biggest beefs: The indiscriminate practice of attaching labels to people.

Diane, you're one of those anti-label people, That's what you are. ;-) (sorry...couldn't resist)

MC

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roadsign

MC said;

Diane, you're one of those anti-label people,

There you go - Indiscriminately putting a label on me. grrrr. :-?

Alas, there is no escape!

Diane

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Compton

The 'prophetic' gifting has always caused me some wariness...and I think this warning from Diane tocuhes on the source of my discomfort.

Don't take the Word beyond what it actually says!

This is such an important point. As much as I would love to encourage the saints in their modern gifts I cannot make so much allowance for them as to blur or muddle the concept Sola Scriptura, or Scripture Alone. Whether it be the charismatic formula "Scripture + Rhema = Ultimate Authority" or the Emergent/Catholic formula "Scripture + Tradition = Ultimate Authority" or the Liberal Churches formula "Scripture + Darwninian/humanist orthodoxy = Ultimate Authority", I feel our post-modern Christianity is becoming too casual in it's esteem of God's written word.

This is not to argue for a formal cessationist view....but in light of the decline of expository preaching from a literal belief of scripture I think a little cessation would be healthy. For even Jesus did not argue against Satan with His own 'Rhema', which would have been faultless, but from the recorded revelation of scripture. Maybe this is the example we should follow before embarking on new territory.

Perhaps one challenge with our post-modern mentaility is that we have a hard time believing that God would simply and practically provide His truth in a rational and plainly written supposition that can touch our emotions, and even spirits, but does not by pass our rational minds. We live in a new-age that reserves the highest regard for the authentification of inward feelings...indeed even our faith in God is often measure exclusively by the presence of these assurances, which are precious but ultimately unstable. This inward focus may offer a vivid experience of faith to the passionate, but nothing compared to the security of those whose beliefs are rooted cognitively, not bobbing upon experience but anchored in acceptance and rest.

Only the revealed and written Word provides this umbrella of authority and safety to the Church...not the modern prophet. This is not to say that there are no human authorities in the church...but that they are validated not by the proof of prophetic words but by the proof of the written word.

Now I can testify, along the lines of Dianes amateur musician analogy, that I have shared words with people that seemed to be more then mere cognitive exchange...but something edifying and building along a spiritual line. It has been admittedly mystifying to me when I touch on something profound and eternal, whether is building up or tearing down. Yet, this transcendence is nothing at all unless it is clearly rooted, indeed originated in the authentic transcendence of the written Word. Therefore, as compared to the scriptures, my heartfelt revelations about the economy, or someones personal secrets are quite disposable. I do not believe God will hold us accountable to the words of any modern prophet like he will to his written revelation.

This is not to denounce any ones claims of being a true prophet, but I do feel quite safe in saying that the words of a modern prophet are unnessecary accessories to the authority of God's Word. Not always contradictory but always unnessesary. This is not a denegration of modern prophets, but a seperation of their role from the Word of God, which is the revealed truth, and ultimate authority for the Church.

MC


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Compton wrote:
The 'prophetic' gifting has always caused me some wariness...and I think this warning from Diane tocuhes on the source of my discomfort.
Don't take the Word beyond what it actually says!

This is such an important point. As much as I would love to encourage the saints in their modern gifts I cannot make so much allowance for them as to blur or muddle the concept Sola Scriptura, or Scripture Alone. Whether it be the charismatic formula "Scripture + Rhema = Ultimate Authority" or the Emergent/Catholic formula "Scripture + Tradition = Ultimate Authority" or the Liberal Churches formula "Scripture + Darwninian/humanist orthodoxy = Ultimate Authority", I feel our post-modern Christianity is becoming too casual in it's esteem of God's written word.
This is not to argue for a formal cessationist view....but in light of the decline of expository preaching from a literal belief of scripture I think a little cessation would be healthy. For even Jesus did not argue against Satan with His own 'Rhema', which would have been faultless, but from the recorded revelation of scripture. Maybe this is the example we should follow before embarking on new territory.
Perhaps one challenge with our post-modern mentaility is that we have a hard time believing that God would simply and practically provide His truth in a rational and plainly written supposition that can touch our emotions, and even spirits, but does not by pass our rational minds. We live in a new-age that reserves the highest regard for the authentification of inward feelings...indeed even our faith in God is often measure exclusively by the presence of these assurances, which are precious but ultimately unstable. This inward focus may offer a vivid experience of faith to the passionate, but nothing compared to the security of those whose beliefs are rooted cognitively, not bobbing upon experience but anchored in acceptance and rest.

Only the revealed and written Word provides this umbrella of authority and safety to the Church...not the modern prophet. This is not to say that there are no human authorities in the church...but that they are validated not by the proof of prophetic words but by the proof of the written word.

Now I can testify, along the lines of Dianes amateur musician analogy, that I have shared words with people that seemed to be more then mere cognitive exchange...but something edifying and building along a spiritual line. It has been admittedly mystifying to me when I touch on something profound and eternal, whether is building up or tearing down. Yet, this transcendence is nothing at all unless it is clearly rooted, indeed originated in the authentic transcendence of the written Word. Therefore, as compared to the scriptures, my heartfelt revelations about the economy, or someones personal secrets are quite disposable. I do not believe God will hold us accountable to the words of any modern prophet like he will to his written revelation.

This is not to denounce any ones claims of being a true prophet, but I do feel quite safe in saying that the words of a modern prophet are unnessecary accessories to the authority of God's Word. Not always contradictory but always unnessesary. This is not a denegration of modern prophets, but a seperation of their role from the Word of God, which is the revealed truth, and ultimate authority for the Church.

MC

[b]In my experience, true prophecy often [i]applies[/i] the written Word to present day situations and needs in a way that preaching seldom can.

Anything that claims to be prophecy but [i]contradicts[/i] what Scripture plainly says has to be suspect, of course, and we who believe that the spiritual gifts have not ceased would agree 100%.

I can't understand the logic that claims that all present day prophecy is false because it presumes to add to the Canon. True prophecy does nothing of the sort, and I can't see how anyone can think it does.

Brother Compton, I agree with much of what you say, but I can't agree, or even understand, how you can conclude that modern prophecy is unnecessary, or how you "feel quite safe" in saying it - your logic seems distinctly wobbly to me :-P

And why should you be surprised, or find it "mystifying" when you sense that you are "touching on something profound and eternal?" when the Word suddenly springs to life, as it were, in your hand? I find it mystifying that you don't seem to expect this to be a normal part of the Christian experience. Surely we must expect to move in this way increasingly as we go on with God?

A wonderful human touch in Samuel is when the prophet complains that the Lord hasn't told him of the death of the shulammite lady's son. He walked so close with God that the Lord was able to share His heart with him. Just as Jesus told His disciples that He called them sons not servants, because the servant doesn't know anything of his master's doings, but sons understand what their Father is doing.

Don't you long for such a relationship with the Lord? I do! We don't even need to be designated prophets to experience this, yet how far away from this most of us seem to be!

The Bible itself says that the written Word is not enough. The written Word is the "sword of the Spirit". How can a sword cut unless it is wielded now, in these days, powerfully and accurately by Him who caused it to be written?

This is much more than mere preaching from the Bible - how many doctrinally sound but "dead" sermons have you heard? Quite a few I would guess.

We [i]desperately[/i] need a clear true prophetic Word into present day situations. - If only to warn against all the false prophets who are prophesying out of their own hearts and minds, who are saying smooth things to encourage people to remain in their sins; saying "Peace! Peace! when there is no peace.

Now I'm preaching :oops: Sorry to go on about it but I do feel very strongly on this point.

Time for another thread on "Cessationism perhaps?


Jeannette[/b]

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Compton

Littlegift,

I appreciate your point. I suppose I was purposely trying to provoke a distinction between the neccesity of the biblical and the accessory of the extra-biblical.

I can't understand the logic that claims that all present day prophecy is false because it presumes to add to the Canon

I did not say that all propecy presumes to add to the Canon...but all prophecy does presume divine authority. Otherwise, why speak for the Lord if not with His authority?

Sola Scriptura does not mean to exclude all other authority such as pastors and prophets...but to exclude all other measurements of authority. Martin Luther was more of a prophet in his day then we have perhaps seen in our day and he said, "The Word comes first, and with the Word the Spirit breathes upon my heart so that I believe."

Since I belive in the gifts of the Spirit I do not see why a discussion of Cessation is relevant here. I simply believe we should subordinate and subject modern prophecy to the written word without exception.

As far as my relationship, indeed my sonship with the Lord, I base that also first upon His written word. (Which is breathed upon my heart by the Spirit.) This should not comes as a surprise...I expect my own son to regard my instructions literally without regard for his feelings. Yes I am blessed by his warm feelings to me, but I expect and try to support his belief and obedience based on my word and not his feelings.

The Bible itself says that the written Word is not enough.

The written word is enough because it is God's Word. Not knowing the full meaning here, but still remembering that Jesus declared that His words sanctify us. The Bible would never outright declare it's insufficiency as your statement appears to do. I am not denying the need for spiritual grace to understand and believe the Word given...but I am rejecting without hesitation or qualification that the bible is inadequate revelation for a full relationship with God. The written word holds all the revelation we were intended to have, not only about salvation, but also about spiritual activity, economies, and heaven. No prophet will ever walk the Earth before Christ's return that will add or supercede what has been provided in the written word. There are no deeper secrets between God and the prophets that are not already recorded in scripture.

That is what I mean by "unnessecary"...I am not saying that the Spirit, either through myself or another believer (ala the "prophet") is unessecary..on the contrary the two testify of each other! Also I understand when Ravenhill declares that we "need" prophets, he is not talking about soothesayers but truth sayers...again this "need" is pointing to the neglected Written Word and not to augment it's insufficency. Indeed, wasn't it Ravenhill who said, "One day someone is going to believe the bible and then we are all going to be in trouble" or something like that!

I am only saying that prophecies about future events, political events, personal events may or may not be useful...but if they are not expounding upon scripures they are indeed unnessecary...even if they 'come to pass.'

Agabus predicted a famine. (I believe this same gift is alive and well!) This 'word' was very useful and profitable to the church...but was it nessecary? I think it's worth noting that it was not... The patriarchs, the prophets, and the apostles recorded God's redemptive plan...this is nessecary.

So I am not a cessasionist...but I have a sense of porportion.

We desperately need a clear true prophetic Word into present day situations. - If only to warn against all the false prophets who are prophesying out of their own hearts

Well I think we agree completely. And how would you tell a true prophet from a false that speaks from their own hearts? Well since you ruled out the heart of the speaker...that leaves God's heart. And how do you validate this claim?

Scripture alone.

We are not that different I think. I think we are facing different directions; that's all...but not facing against each other. I think we are standing with our backs to each other, standing for the scriptures against two different extremes: You are perhaps against dead textualism and I am against too much extra-biblical revelation however benign and safe it appears.

Blessings,

MC

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roadsign

Time for another thread on "Cessationism perhaps?

It seems to me that the real challenge is learning where to draw the dividing lines between authentic Spirit revelation and the unauthentic. I have heard it explained that some lean too heavily on the Word, and some on the Spirit. Frankly, that is an impossibility! Spirit and the Word work together to make truth come alive in hearts.

I acknowledge the legitimate concern regarding the “over-reliance” on Spirit or related manifestations, but might I suggest that this is probably referring to a dependency on the WRONG spirit. After all, spirit can mean a lot of things. Personally, I believe that meaning of “the Spirit” has generally been changed to mean my emotions, or my senses, or my mood, or even evil spirits at work. And these are the spirits that false prophets rely on.

It all depends on which (S)spirit one is surrendered to.

My concern with attempts to downsize this spirit “overindulgence” is that we quench the real work of the Spirit. My former Baptist life has caused me to be very sensitive to this danger. You end up with a lot of ‘saved” people who are simply told that they have enough of the Spirit, and they don’t need to feel or experience it. So sad! You end up with “saved” people who are spiritually dead -thinking they are saved because they have never been encouraged to trust their spiritual instincts – or whatever you’d call it.

The Spirit is our life-line, and it is the life-line of true prophets. It is our connection with the head.

Diane

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Compton

I have heard it explained that some lean too heavily on the Word, and some on the Spirit. Frankly, that is an impossibility!

Yes, we have a tendency to imply disparity between the written word and the Spirit in ways where there is none.

You mentioned to trust our Spiritual instincts or whatever...well we can have the witness of the Spirit within but I've sadly leanred to not grow too confident of my 'spiritual instincts.' (Knowing that when you coined that phrase, you would not mean what it is not and only mean what it is! ;-) )

Again we come back to the scriptures. I agree with Martin Luther is assigning not only a balance between the written word and our inward witness...but more importantly a sequence. First the Word, then the Spirit breathes the Word into our hearts.

Could there be an exception to this rule? Could the Spirit tell you something that did not originate first in scriptures? I guess I could not rule it out...but I can suggest it may not be for the body.

So we can not say that the Spirit is the only means we are connected to the head...we are also connected because of our faith and conformity to the written word. We of course, shouldn't judge "life" only by heat and excitement...but also by conformity. If someone is conformed to the world, but always rhpasodizing about the deeper spiritual truths they have recieved from the Lord...can we safetly say they are alive? On the other hand, if some 'dead' Baptists are expounding on the scriptures week after week, with nary a prophecy in their midst...can we say they are dead? I realize these are perhaps unfairly couched questions...but I am only saying that our pentecostal/charismatic traditions will always benifit from rational analysis of the written word. I mean that. (edit:That is to say that while we recognize the the inward witness of the Spirit, we also recognize that God's Word is written down for rational understanding...systematic and diligent study is just as 'spiritual' as the revelations.)

In the end I believe we all shooting for the same things here...but perhaps each of us are trying to add our own corrective emphasis according to the abuses or errors we have seen in the past.

Blessings,

MC

R
roadsign

First the Word, then the Spirit breathes the Word into our hearts.

Mmmmm – I’m scratching my head…. wondering where it says this in the Word. I guess I’m just not quite so eager to lay down the guidelines for the way and order in which God chooses to work in hearts. It certainly is not beyond God to bring conviction in all kinds of ways besides the Word – after all, he is quite resourceful. In fact, I could give a few examples – even personally.

By the way, here’s one of my favorite “prophet” stories (I once read this) . I include it merely to illustrate one way that the Spirit can work.

A certain prophet was visiting a fruit farmer. The Spirit revealed to the prophet that the farmer had hidden some rotten apples underneath the good ones in the crates that were destined for shipment. The Spirit prompted the prophet to tell the farmer about the shocking consequence of someone who was caught cheating. The point was, God himself was going to convict this farmer by his Spirit - through the story. It was not the job of the prophet to reveal what he knew, or disclose his identity – in other words, get in the way.

Clearly, this entire account is rooted in divine truth: “Though shalt not bear false witness…. Be sure your sins will find you out.”

Could the Spirit tell you something that did not originate first in scriptures?

So, really, we're saying the same thing.

In our society the Word is not an authority for many people. They may not even believe in God. So to say “Thus saith the Lord” is useless. Yet the Spirit can still appeal to their consciences, shedding light on divine truth – and may very well use us. It's a subtle ministry. I dare say, we can be far more effective if we are able to cooperate with the Spirit than by launching out into our own zealous evangelistic efforts- with Bible in hand.

Maybe there is a time to say: the Spirit first (in step), and then the word (will be fulfilled). hmmmm...

Diane

S
sermonindex

Stever posts:

John Piper has this to say about Martin Luther:

In 1539, commenting on Psalm 119, Luther wrote, "In this psalm David always says that he will speak, think, talk, hear, read, day and night constantly—but about nothing else than God's Word and Commandments. For God wants to give you His Spirit only through the external Word" . This phrase is extremely important. The "external Word" is the Book. And the saving, sanctifying, illuminating Spirit of God, he says, comes to us through this "external Word."

Luther calls it the "external Word" to emphasize that it is objective, fixed, outside ourselves, and therefore unchanging. It is a Book. Neither ecclesiastical hierarchy nor fanatical ecstasy can replace it or shape it. It is "external," like God. You can take it or leave it. But you can't make it other than what it is. It is a book with fixed letters and words and sentences.

And Luther said with resounding forcefulness in 1545, the year before he died, "Let the man who would hear God speak, read Holy Scripture" (see note 5). Earlier he had said in his lectures on Genesis, "The Holy Spirit himself and God, the Creator of all things, is the Author of this book" (see note 6). One of the implications of the fact that the Word of God comes to us in a book is that the theme of this conference is "The Pastor and His Study," not "The Pastor and His Seance," or "The Pastor and His Intuition," or "The Pastor and His Religious Multi-perspectivalism."

The Word of God that saves and sanctifies, from generation to generation, is preserved in a Book. And therefore at the heart of every pastor's work is book-work. Call it reading, meditation, reflection, cogitation, study, exegesis, or whatever you will—a large and central part of our work is to wrestle God's meaning from a Book, and proclaim it in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Luther knew, that some would stumble over the sheer conservatism of this simple, unchangeable fact. God's Word is fixed in a book. He knew then, as we know today, that many say this assertion nullifies or minimizes the crucial role of the Holy Spirit in giving life and light. Luther would, I think, say, "Yes, that might happen." One might argue that emphasizing the brightness of the sun nullifies the surgeon who takes away blindness. But most people would not agree with that. Certainly not Luther.

He said in 1520, "Be assured that no one will make a doctor of the Holy Scripture save only the Holy Ghost from heaven" (see note 7). Luther was a great lover of the Holy Spirit. And his exaltation of the Book as the "external Word" did not belittle the Spirit.[b][color=0000FF]On the contrary it elevated the Spirit's great gift to Christendom. In 1533 he said, "The Word of God is the greatest, most necessary, and most important thing in Christendom"[/color][/b](see note 8).

[b][color=CC3300]Without the "external Word" we would not know one spirit from the other, and the objective personality of the Holy Spirit himself would be lost in a blur of subjective expressions. Cherishing the Book implied to Luther that the Holy Spirit is a beautiful person to be known and loved, not a buzz to be felt.[/color][/b]

To read the entire article, go to: http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Biographies/1470_Martin_Luther_Lessons_from_His_Life_and_Labor/

God bless,

Stever

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Roadsign posted previously:


Mmmmm – I’m scratching my head…. wondering where it says this in the Word. I guess I’m just not quite so eager to lay down the guidelines for the way and order in which God chooses to work in hearts. It certainly is not beyond God to bring conviction in all kinds of ways besides the Word – after all, he is quite resourceful. In fact, I could give a few examples – even personally.

By the way, here’s one of my favorite “prophet” stories (I once read this) . I include it merely to illustrate one way that the Spirit can work.

A certain prophet was visiting a fruit farmer. The Spirit revealed to the prophet that the farmer had hidden some rotten apples underneath the good ones in the crates that were destined for shipment. The Spirit prompted the prophet to tell the farmer about the shocking consequence of someone who was caught cheating. The point was, God himself was going to convict this farmer by his Spirit - through the story. It was not the job of the prophet to reveal what he knew, or disclose his identity – in other words, get in the way.

Clearly, this entire account is rooted in divine truth: “Though shalt not bear false witness…. Be sure your sins will find you out.”

Could the Spirit tell you something that did not originate first in scriptures?

So, really, we're saying the same thing.

In our society the Word is not an authority for many people. They may not even believe in God. So to say “Thus saith the Lord” is useless. Yet the Spirit can still appeal to their consciences, shedding light on divine truth – and may very well use us. It's a subtle ministry. I dare say, we can be far more effective if we are able to cooperate with the Spirit than by launching out into our own zealous evangelistic efforts- with Bible in hand.

Maybe there is a time to say: the Spirit first (in step), and then the word (will be fulfilled). hmmmm...

Diane

R
rookie

Could the Spirit tell you something that did not originate first in scriptures?


Solomon was given wisdom to rule over the nation Israel. The gift of wisdom finds it's source in the Holy Spirit.

Joseph was given dreams...again by the same Spirit.

Jacob raised sheep wisely...again by the same Spirit.

Paul was given a specific stewardship to reveal the mysteries of God to the Gentiles again by the same Spirit.

Peter declares that Pentecost was a time that Joel wrote of...and we know that that prophesy is not yet complete because men still dream dreams. Young men still see visions. And sons and daughters still prophesy.

And it all pretains to the building up of the church. Each congregation is unique, and therefore is dependent upon our High Priest for guidance. That guidance is unique. What is common, is that as the work progresses, all come to the unity of the truth that is found in Scripture.

In Christ
Jeff

J
jordanamo

This thread is huge!

Jordan

R
roadsign

The comments on this thread are bringing back a lot of almost-forgotten memories. I’ll just address one for now:


I am only saying that prophecies about future events, political events, personal events may or may not be useful...but if they are not expounding upon scripures they are indeed unnessecary...even if they 'come to pass.'

Well, if they arise from God himself, then there must be a good reason for them, so I am reluctant to stash any into the “optional” bin.

Let me explain using subjective experiences. Some years ago God revealed to me some not-so-pleasant things that would be happening in my family. Then later when it happened, my heart was able to bear the pain only because I knew that God saw it all along. He already knew! And, oh how comforting (subjective) my Lord was to me! I sure would not label any of my subjective experiences as fluffy unnecessary add-ons, but as a divinely ordained life-line to my peace and sanity – and, above all, my faith. It allowed me to focus on what God was teaching ME through it all, and leave my family in God's hands.

Having said that, I must quickly agree with MC, and add that God's word does indeed touch on all aspects of life. And we can count on his Spirit to deepen our trust in his Word by guiding us to appropriate references (again, a personal observation) - but it may not all happen all at once.


EDIT: If Luther was such a great defender of the Word - sola scriptura , why did he refer to the book of James as straw? (or is that just a nasty rumour)
Could he have had some significant blind spots - and to some degree an inability to hear the Spirit? It makes me wonder if maybe prophets are given only certain revelation/calling and when they go beyond, launching into their own powers of reasoning and logical deduction, that they get off track (Finney, etc). Just wondering....

Diane

C
Compton

Perhaps it was unnessecary for me to use such a word as unessecary...I was trying to set up a difference between the gift of prophecy for today and God's word. I overstated my point for effect, ill advised.

I do not argue against a place for subjective experience. Yet, as Stever pointed out, without the Word, subjective experience is left judging subjective experience. So even if we are reluctant to put stuff in the 'optional' bin, we know that without the benchmark of scripture every 'word' we recieve, no matter how convinced we are of it's validity, is not verifiable by the rest of the body. I can not come to any other conclusion. Has not David Wilkerson and even Leanord Ravenhill felt strongly about certain future events that did not come to pass? This is not to belittle them...indeed they were the most reluctant to call themselves prophets...and their burden for the body is most compelling. I realize this may be a controversial example...but my point is that ultimate authority even for these tested men remains in Scripture alone...and not in some 'invisible spiritual barometer', which would be subjectivity judging subjectivity. I think they would agree.

Now rookies examples of a spiritually birthed Word are examples within scripture. Are we told of Pauls' new revelation from heaven so that we can also expect new revelation...or so that we can know the authority of he was speaking with? Does God give original and unprecedented spiritual wisdom today? If it pertains to the Church will it not also be verifiable in scripture? If it pertains to secular matters just as investments or the economy then how far can we warrant this wisdom if we find no metric in scripture? Is it eternal? This is only what I meant by saying that scripture contains all the revelation we need...not information for all topics in life as science, politics, and business...but for the complete rule of faith for the Church.

By the way Roadsign...I think the story of Martin Luther calling James an Epistle of Staw is indeed distorted. I forget what he said exactly but he did not outright call the book false. (One of the Veron McGee sermons on this website mentioned this!)

In any case, if we are now saying that we do not accept Sola Scriptura de facto then we have a whole new discussion on our hands. The suffiency of scripture was the basis for the Reformation, and if Martin Luther, Hus, Wycliffe, Clavin, ect were wrong, then this thread on prophecy has opened into a much more foundational discussion.

Perhaps some would say that Luther helped things along for his day, but now we the Church need to move into a fuller level of walking with God...or something along these lines. I've heard something similar to this before...that Luther was rebuilding only one aspect of the Church that Rome had destroyed...and that future generations were rebuilding other aspects.

I understand this concept...yet Sola Scriptura...as coldly analytical and spiritually detached as it might seem to our post-modern society...provides a benchmark for testing the storm of subjectivity we find outselves in today. I simply do not know how to move beyond it.

This is not to say that I do not recieve from the Spirit myself! My goodness that would be a miscommunication. On the contrary, it would be most tempting to live and breathe my own convincing perceptions seeking insulation from critique by claiming Paul's words for myself "...and I too have the Spirit." So, my lack of unquestioning faith in modern prophecy is not rooted in a suspicion of others as much as it is rooted in a self-awareness. The heart is indeed decietful...I do not hope to ever think differently. I subject my own "revelations" most of all to the scriptures as best I can...which very much includes listening to others from their scriptural perspective.

Without sola scriptura...how do I keep myself from error? The scriptures are sufficient for the rule of faith...modern prophecies are not. This is not to say modern prophecies are 'useless'...on the contrary. But you cannot govern a church...or a life...by them.

Regarding recieving from others...I have been "prophi-lied" to many times. I submit this for your pyscological scrutiny. You might say "Ahhh...this is the problem! You have been burned!" I would say "This is true...and would you ask a child who has been burned to stick his hand back into the flame? Was the flame only subjective? No the flame was real and it's lessons are profitable to our health."

This is not to say "never recieve a propecy." I think this is an unscriptural position. Instead, I would say that all modern prophecies must be tested and always regarded as inferior to scripture. Having said that, I readily recognize there are good prophets hidden within the bad ones...sometimes within the same person. I accept this. But in order to detect the good from the bad we are left with only one proven and agreeable measurement.

Sola Scriptura!

Blessings saints,

MC

S
sermonindex

While researching, for a project that I'm working on, I stumbled across the transcript of Dr Martin Luther King Jr's final speech in Memphis, and I know that are some on on here that are not "fans" of his, but after reading thru this speech, tell me, if you don;t think that he prophesied his own death, foretold of it:

I See the Promised Land

Thank you very kindly, my friends. As I listened to Ralph Abernathy in his eloquent and generous introduction and then thought about myself, I wondered who he was talking about. It's always good to have your closest friend and associate say something good about you. And Ralph is the best friend that I have in the world.

I'm delighted to see each of you here tonight in spite of a storm warning. You reveal that you are determined to go on anyhow. Something is happening in Memphis, something is happening in our world.

As you know, if I were standing at the beginning of time, with the possibility of general and panoramic view of the whole human history up to now, and the Almighty said to me, "Martin Luther King, which age would you like to live in?"-- I would take my mental flight by Egypt through, or rather across the Red Sea, through the wilderness on toward the promised land. And in spite of its magnificence, I wouldn't stop there. I would move on by Greece, and take my mind to Mount Olympus. And I would see Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Euripides and Aristophanes assembled around the Parthenon as they discussed the great and eternal issues of reality.

But I wouldn't stop there. I would go on, even to the great heyday of the Roman Empire. And I would see developments around there, through various emperors and leaders. But I wouldn't stop there. I would even come up to the day of the Renaissance, and get a quick picture of all that the Renaissance did for the cultural and esthetic life of man. But I wouldn't stop there. I would even go by the way that the man for whom I'm named had his habitat. And I would watch Martin Luther as he tacked his ninety-five theses on the door at the church in Wittenberg.

But I wouldn't stop there. I would come on up even to 1863, and watch a vacillating president by the name of Abraham Lincoln finally come to the conclusion that he had to sign the Emancipation Proclamation. But I wouldn't stop there. I would even come up the early thirties, and see a man grappling with the problems of the bankruptcy of his nation. And come with an eloquent cry that we have nothing to fear but fear itself.

But I wouldn't stop there. Strangely enough, I would turn to the Almighty, and say, "If you allow me to live just a few years in the second half of the twentieth century, I will be happy." Now that's a strange statement to make, because the world is all messed up. The nation is sick. Trouble is in the land. Confusion all around. That's a strange statement. But I know, somehow, that only when it is dark enough, can you see the stars. And I see God working in this period of the twentieth century in a way that men, in some strange way, are responding--something is happening in our world. The masses of people are rising up. And wherever they are assembled today, whether they are in Johannesburg, South Africa; Nairobi, Kenya: Accra, Ghana; New York City; Atlanta, Georgia; Jackson, Mississippi; or Memphis, Tennessee--the cry is always the same--"We want to be free."

And another reason that I'm happy to live in this period is that we have been forced to a point where we're going to have to grapple with the problems that men have been trying to grapple with through history, but the demands didn't force them to do it. Survival demands that we grapple with them. Men, for years now, have been talking about war and peace. But now, no longer can they just talk about it. It is no longer a choice between violence and nonviolence in this world; it's nonviolence or nonexistence.

That is where we are today. And also in the human rights revolution, if something isn't done, and in a hurry, to bring the colored peoples of the world out of their long years of poverty, their long years of hurt and neglect, the whole world is doomed. Now, I'm just happy that God has allowed me to live in this period, to see what is unfolding. And I'm happy that he's allowed me to be in Memphis.

I can remember, I can remember when Negroes were just going around as Ralph has said, so often, scratching where they didn't itch, and laughing when they were not tickled. But that day is all over. We mean business now, and we are determined to gain our rightful place in God's world.

And that's all this whole thing is about. We aren't engaged in any negative protest and in any negative arguments with anybody. We are saying that we are determined to be men. We are determined to be people. We are saying that we are God's children. And that we don't have to live like we are forced to live.

Now, what does all of this mean in this great period of history? It means that we've got to stay together. We've got to stay together and maintain unity. You know, whenever Pharaoh wanted to prolong the period of slavery in Egypt, he had a favorite, favorite formula for doing it. What was that? He kept the slaves fighting among themselves. But whenever the slaves get together, something happens in Pharaoh's court, and he cannot hold the slaves in slavery. When the slaves get together, that's the beginning of getting out of slavery. Now let us maintain unity.

Secondly, let us keep the issues where they are. The issue is injustice. The issue is the refusal of Memphis to be fair and honest in its dealings with its public servants, who happen to be sanitation workers. Now, we've got to keep attention on that. That's always the problem with a little violence. You know what happened the other day, and the press dealt only with the window-breaking. I read the articles. They very seldom got around to mentioning the fact that one thousand, three hundred sanitation workers were on strike, and that Memphis is not being fair to them, and that Mayor Loeb is in dire need of a doctor. They didn't get around to that.

Now we're going to march again, and we've got to march again, in order to put the issue where it is supposed to be. And force everybody to see that there are thirteen hundred of God's children here suffering, sometimes going hungry, going through dark and dreary nights wondering how this thing is going to come out. That's the issue. And we've got to say to the nation: we know it's coming out. For when people get caught up with that which is right and they are willing to sacrifice for it, there is no stopping point short of victory.

We aren't going to let any mace stop us. We are masters in our nonviolent movement in disarming police forces; they don't know what to do. I've seen them so often. I remember in Birmingham, Alabama, when we were in that majestic struggle there we would move out of the 16th Street Baptist Church day after day; by the hundreds we would move out. And Bull Connor would tell them to send the dogs forth and they did come; but we just went before the dogs singing, "Ain't gonna let nobody turn me round." Bull Connor next would say, "Turn the fire hoses on." And as I said to you the other night, Bull Connor didn't know history. He knew a kind of physics that somehow didn't relate to the transphysics that we knew about. And that was the fact that there was a certain kind of fire that no water could put out. And we went before the fire hoses; we had known water. If we were Baptist or some other denomination, we had been immersed. If we were Methodist, and some others, we had been sprinkled, but we knew water.

That couldn't stop us. And we just went on before the dogs and we would look at them; and we'd go on before the water hoses and we would look at it, and we'd just go on singing. "Over my head I see freedom in the air." And then we would be thrown in the paddy wagons, and sometimes we were stacked in there like sardines in a can. And they would throw us in, and old Bull would say, "Take them off," and they did; and we would just go in the paddy wagon singing, "We Shall Overcome." And every now and then we'd get in the jail, and we'd see the jailers looking through the windows being moved by our prayers, and being moved by our words and our songs. And there was a power there which Bull Connor couldn't adjust to; and so we ended up transforming Bull into a steer, and we won our struggle in Birmingham.

Now we've got to go on to Memphis just like that. I call upon you to be with us Monday. Now about injunctions: We have an injunction and we're going into court tomorrow morning to fight this illegal, unconstitutional injunction. All we say to America is, "Be true to what you said on paper." If I lived in China or even Russia, or any totalitarian country, maybe I could understand the denial of certain basic First Amendment privileges, because they hadn't committed themselves to that over there. But somewhere I read of the freedom of assembly. Somewhere I read of the freedom of speech. Somewhere I read of the freedom of the press. Somewhere I read that the greatness of America is the right to protest for right. And so just as I say, we aren't going to let any injunction turn us around. We are going on.

We need all of you. And you know what's beautiful to me, is to see all of these ministers of the Gospel. It's a marvelous picture. Who is it that is supposed to articulate the longings and aspirations of the people more than the preacher? Somehow the preacher must be an Amos, and say, "Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." Somehow, the preacher must say with Jesus, "The spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to deal with the problems of the poor."

And I want to commend the preachers, under the leadership of these noble men: James Lawson, one who has been in this struggle for many years; he's been to jail for struggling; but he's still going on, fighting for the rights of his people. Rev. Ralph Jackson, Billy Kiles; I could just go right on down the list, but time will not permit. But I want to thank them all. And I want you to thank them, because so often, preachers aren't concerned about anything but themselves. And I'm always happy to see a relevant ministry.

It's alright to talk about "long white robes over yonder," in all of its symbolism. But ultimately people want some suits and dresses and shoes to wear down here. It's alright to talk about "streets flowing with milk and honey," but God has commanded us to be concerned about the slums down here, and his children who can't eat three square meals a day. It's alright to talk about the new Jerusalem, but one day, God's preacher must talk about the New York, the new Atlanta, the new Philadelphia, the new Los Angeles, the new Memphis, Tennessee. This is what we have to do.

Now the other thing we'll have to do is this: Always anchor our external direct action with the power of economic withdrawal. Now, we are poor people, individually, we are poor when you compare us with white society in America. We are poor. Never stop and forget that collectively, that means all of us together, collectively we are richer than all the nation in the world, with the exception of nine. Did you ever think about that? After you leave the United States, Soviet Russia, Great Britain, West Germany, France, and I could name the others, the Negro collectively is richer than most nations of the world. We have an annual income of more than thirty billion dollars a year, which is more than all of the exports of the United States, and more than the national budget of Canada. Did you know that? That's power right there, if we know how to pool it.

We don't have to argue with anybody. We don't have to curse and go around acting bad with our words. We don't need any bricks and bottles, we don't need any Molotov cocktails, we just need to go around to these stores, and to these massive industries in our country, and say, "God sent us by here, to say to you that you're not treating his children right. And we've come by here to ask you to make the first item on your agenda--fair treatment, where God's children are concerned. Now, if you are not prepared to do that, we do have an agenda that we must follow. And our agenda calls for withdrawing economic support from you."

And so, as a result of this, we are asking you tonight, to go out and tell your neighbors not to buy Coca-Cola in Memphis. Go by and tell them not to buy Sealtest milk. Tell them not to buy--what is the other bread?--Wonder Bread. And what is the other bread company, Jesse? Tell them not to buy Hart's bread. As Jesse Jackson has said, up to now, only the garbage men have been feeling pain; now we must kind of redistribute the pain. We are choosing these companies because they haven't been fair in their hiring policies; and we are choosing them because they can begin the process of saying, they are going to support the needs and the rights of these men who are on strike. And then they can move on downtown and tell Mayor Loeb to do what is right.

But not only that, we've got to strengthen black institutions. I call upon you to take you money out of the banks downtown and deposit you money in Tri-State Bank--we want a "bank-in" movement in Memphis. So go by the savings and loan association. I'm not asking you something that we don't do ourselves at SCLC. Judge Hooks and others will tell you that we have an account here in the savings and loan association from the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. We're just telling you to follow what we're doing. Put your money there. You have six or seven black insurance companies in Memphis. Take out your insurance there. We want to have an "insurance-in."

Now there are some practical things we can do. We begin the process of building a greater economic base. And at the same time, we are putting pressure where it really hurts. I ask you to follow through here.

Now, let me say as I move to my conclusion that we've got to give ourselves to this struggle until the end. Nothing would be more tragic than to stop at this point, in Memphis. We've got to see it through. And when we have our march, you need to be there. Be concerned about your brother. You may not be on strike. But either we go up together, or we go down together.

Let us develop a kind of dangerous unselfishness. One day a man came to Jesus; and he wanted to raise some questions about some vital matters in life. At points, he wanted to trick Jesus, and show him that he knew a little more than Jesus knew, and through this, throw him off base. Now that question could have easily ended up in a philosophical and theological debate. But Jesus immediately pulled that question from mid-air, and placed it on a dangerous curve between Jerusalem and Jericho. And he talked about a certain man, who fell among thieves. You remember that a Levite and a priest passed by on the other side. They didn't stop to help him. And finally a man of another race came by. He got down from his beast, decided not to be compassionate by proxy. But with him, administered first aid, and helped the man in need. Jesus ended up saying, this was the good man, because he had the capacity to project the "I" into the "thou," and to be concerned about his brother. Now you know, we use our imagination a great deal to try to determine why the priest and the Levite didn't stop. At times we say they were busy going to church meetings--an ecclesiastical gathering--and they had to get on down to Jerusalem so they wouldn't be late for their meeting. At other times we would speculate that there was a religious law that "One who was engaged in religious ceremonials was not to touch a human body twenty-four hours before the ceremony." And every now and then we begin to wonder whether maybe they were not going down to Jerusalem, or down to Jericho, rather to organize a "Jericho Road Improvement Association." That's a possibility. Maybe they felt that it was better to deal with the problem from the casual root, rather than to get bogged down with an individual effort.

But I'm going to tell you what my imagination tells me. It's possible that these men were afraid. You see, the Jericho road is a dangerous road. I remember when Mrs. King and I were first in Jerusalem. We rented a car and drove from Jerusalem down to Jericho. And as soon as we got on that road, I said to my wife, "I can see why Jesus used this as a setting for his parable." It's a winding, meandering road. It's really conducive for ambushing. You start out in Jerusalem, which is about 1200 miles, or rather 1200 feet above sea level. And by the time you get down to Jericho, fifteen or twenty minutes later, you're about 2200 feet below sea level. That's a dangerous road. In the day of Jesus it came to be known as the "Bloody Pass." And you know, it's possible that the priest and the Levite looked over that man on the ground and wondered if the robbers were still around. Or it's possible that they felt that the man on the ground was merely faking. And he was acting like he had been robbed and hurt, in order to seize them over there, lure them there for quick and easy seizure. And so the first question that the Levite asked was, "If I stop to help this man, what will happen to me?" But then the Good Samaritan came by. And he reversed the question: "If I do not stop to help this man, what will happen to him?".

That's the question before you tonight. Not, "If I stop to help the sanitation workers, what will happen to all of the hours that I usually spend in my office every day and every week as a pastor?" The question is not, "If I stop to help this man in need, what will happen to me?" "If I do no stop to help the sanitation workers, what will happen to them?" That's the question.

Let us rise up tonight with a greater readiness. Let us stand with a greater determination. And let us move on in these powerful days, these days of challenge to make America what it ought to be. We have an opportunity to make America a better nation. And I want to thank God, once more, for allowing me to be here with you.

You know, several years ago, I was in New York City autographing the first book that I had written. And while sitting there autographing books, a demented black woman came up. The only question I heard from her was, "Are you Martin Luther King?"

And I was looking down writing, and I said yes. And the next minute I felt something beating on my chest. Before I knew it I had been stabbed by this demented woman. I was rushed to Harlem Hospital. It was a dark Saturday afternoon. And that blade had gone through, and the X-rays revealed that the tip of the blade was on the edge of my aorta, the main artery. And once that's punctured, you drown in your own blood--that's the end of you.

It came out in the New York Times the next morning, that if I had sneezed, I would have died. Well, about four days later, they allowed me, after the operation, after my chest had been opened, and the blade had been taken out, to move around in the wheel chair in the hospital. They allowed me to read some of the mail that came in, and from all over the states, and the world, kind letters came in. I read a few, but one of them I will never forget. I had received one from the President and the Vice-President. I've forgotten what those telegrams said. I'd received a visit and a letter from the Governor of New York, but I've forgotten what the letter said. But there was another letter that came from a little girl, a young girl who was a student at the White Plains High School. And I looked at that letter, and I'll never forget it. It said simply, "Dear Dr. King: I am a ninth-grade student at the Whites Plains High School." She said, "While it should not matter, I would like to mention that I am a white girl. I read in the paper of your misfortune, and of your suffering. And I read that if you had sneezed, you would have died. And I'm simply writing you to say that I'm so happy that you didn't sneeze."

And I want to say tonight, I want to say that I am happy that I didn't sneeze. Because if I had sneezed, I wouldn't have been around here in 1960, when students all over the South started sitting-in at lunch counters. And I knew that as they were sitting in, they were really standing up for the best in the American dream. And taking the whole nation back to those great wells of democracy which were dug deep by the Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. If I had sneezed, I wouldn't have been around in 1962, when Negroes in Albany, Georgia, decided to straighten their backs up. And whenever men and women straighten their backs up, they are going somewhere, because a man can't ride your back unless it is bent. If I had sneezed, I wouldn't have been here in 1963, when the black people of Birmingham, Alabama, aroused the conscience of this nation, and brought into being the Civil Rights Bill. If I had sneezed, I wouldn't have had a chance later that year, in August, to try to tell America about a dream that I had had. If I had sneezed, I wouldn't have been down in Selma, Alabama, to see the great movement there. If I had sneezed, I wouldn't have been in Memphis to see a community rally around those brothers and sisters who are suffering. I'm so happy that I didn't sneeze.

And they were telling me, now it doesn't matter now. It really doesn't matter what happens now. I left Atlanta this morning, and as we got started on the plane, there were six of us, the pilot said over the public address system, "We are sorry for the delay, but we have Dr. Martin Luther King on the plane. And to be sure that all of the bags were checked, and to be sure that nothing would be wrong with the plane, we had to check out everything carefully. And we've had the plane protected and guarded all night."

And then I got into Memphis. And some began to say that threats, or talk about the threats that were out. What would happen to me from some of our sick white brothers?

Well, I don't know what will happen now. We've got some difficult days ahead. But it doesn't matter with me now. Because I've been to the mountaintop. And I don't mind. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people will get to the promised land. And I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man. Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.

S
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As a Jew saved by Grace, the ministry of Martin Luther is a roadmap of how one can fall into the trap of the devil, the destroyer.

in a 1523 essay he wrote, "That Jesus Christ was born a Jew", he wrote:

If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would sooner have become a hog than a Christian. They have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs rather than human beings; they have done little else than deride them and seize their property. When they baptize them they show them nothing of Christian doctrine or life, but only subject them to popishness and monkery...If the apostles, who also were Jews, had dealt with us Gentiles as we Gentiles deal with the Jews, there would never have been a Christian among the Gentiles ... When we are inclined to boast of our position [as Christians] we should remember that we are but Gentiles, while the Jews are of the lineage of Christ. We are aliens and in-laws; they are blood relatives, cousins, and brothers of our Lord. Therefore, if one is to boast of flesh and blood the Jews are actually nearer to Christ than we are...If we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them not by papal law but by the law of Christian love. We must receive them cordially, and permit them to trade and work with us, that they may have occasion and opportunity to associate with us, hear our Christian teaching, and witness our Christian life. If some of them should prove stiff-necked, what of it? After all, we ourselves are not all good Christians either


then in 1543, near the end of his life, he wrote his rabid tretise, "On Jews and their Lies", in which he advocated:

Luther advocated an eight-point plan to get rid of the Jews either by religious conversion or by expulsion:


"First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ..."
"Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. ..."
"Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. ..."
"Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ..."
"Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ..."
"Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them. ... Such money should now be used in ... the following [way]... Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed [a certain amount]..."
"Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."
"If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country" and "we must drive them out like mad dogs


what happened to him? Was this a prophet? a preacher?, a madman consumed by his hatred? when did he stop serving Messiah and start serving the devil?

Is this a prophet?....my question. Is this the "father" of protestantism? Do we quote and lift up the teachings of a man who wrote words of such vile hate, that served as a blueprint for 500 years of institutionalized murder of Jews throughout Europe?

In 1523 he [b]prophiesed[/b] what he himself would be become, and these writings gave theological "backing" to the satanic hitlerites and their "final solution".

Does anyone who claims themselves a "protestant" really WANT to claim Martin Luther as the "father" of this movement. To me, thats the same the same as saying Peter was the first pope.

Peter was a fisherman, who was the first man to confess Jesus as Messiah, THATS the "Rock" that the Church is built on, a simple confession by a simple man, yet he was PROCLAIMED a title, "first pope".

be very wary of "titles" conferred upon or by you such as "prophet", its just 20 short years from 1523 to 1543 from serving Messiah to serving satan, which is how I believe martin luther finished his "career".

so....what are you?

I'm a child of Abraham, and a follower of Jesus, NOTHING more than that.

be wary brethern, we are not unaware of the enemies schemes.

In Jesus' love, neil

I
IRONMAN

bro Bartle
interesting information you have here on Luther. while i don't advocate what Luther was saying in the treatease "on Jews and their lies" and what ought to be done to them but perhaps we could glean some things from that, perhaps in spite of the vitriol there may well be some things to consider there.

1)Has Jewish tradition been a form of idolatry?

2)Have Jews in times past and present strayed from God and followed their own traditions?

3)Do some Jews have disdain (expressed openly or not) toward Christians?

4)Is it enough to be a Jew in order to be saved?

5) did Luther have soem bad experiences with Jews to which he reacted so badly?

anyhow, it seems obvious that somewhere down the line, Luther lost it. does it mean he wasn't the father of protestantism? no, it means he lost his way at some point. in spite of what he said at the end of his life, when he started working against the popery of Rome, he set off the reformation. do we lift up all the things he taught, obviously not. we all have said some things on these threads which have not been godly but we hold dear those things which ARE.

Does anyone who claims themselves a "protestant" really WANT to claim Martin Luther as the "father" of this movement. To me, thats the same the same as saying Peter was the first pope.

but he was though, Luther did start the reformation even though he said some wicked things later on. obviously we don't lift up these things, but for goodness' sake we don't toss out the things Luther said which were inspired of God either, that would be foolish. indeed there is no doubt some excesses and wickednesses came out of the protestant church, even catholicism, and Judaism also. of course we seek out what is God and godly from those things. i'm not sure i'd say that calling Luther the father of the reformation is the same as calling Peter the first pope, Peter didn't found Popery. now the 2 have things in common in that somewhere down the line people did abuse the things they taught.

be very wary of "titles" conferred upon or by you such as "prophet", its just 20 short years from 1523 to 1543 from serving Messiah to serving satan, which is how I believe martin luther finished his "career".

seriously, i don't know where anyone called Luther a prophet but such a title is not conferred on a man by men but by God Himself. Paul made no bones about being an apostle,he always said however that it was by God and not men...i'm not a prophet or apostle because someone gave me those titles, that's what God called me to be.

I'm a child of Abraham, and a follower of Jesus, NOTHING more than that.

bro, it seems to me though you're saved, you identify more with your Jewish roots.i could be wrong though. as a Christian could that not also be used by the enemy against you? being black and aware of how the Sons of Japheth treated my own forefathers (a holocaust also) i could easily be bitter (and a prime target for the enemy) but i don't see myself as a black Christian, but simply a Christian who is black. that has freed me (and whom the Son sets free, is free indeed) from any such disdain for white folk, or anyone for that matter. is this the case for you?

i wonder though, why did God allow both these holocausts to happen and should we be mad at the perpetrators?

S
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Marin Luther King said

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.
This is like Keith Green's part in the little song credited to his wife, Melody, 'There is a Redeemer'.

The last verse says

When I stand in glory
I will see His face,
And there I'll serve my King forever,
In that Holy Place.


It was not long till he was killed in a plane crash, aged 27.

Of Martin Luther, bartle asked

what happened to him?
I agree.

So, how do we know this really was his thought? It sounds like two different people writing. Was it? It would not be the last time the RCC had succeeded in ruining someone's reputation by a bit of ghost writing.

The other point I would make, in response to any comment Martin Luther may have made about James' epistle, is that you are all forgetting that it was not till after Martin Luther, that Erasmus worked hard to get his collection of manuscripts all in one place. This may mean that Luther did not have the kind of overview which was available to later students, such as Tyndale.

I know the writings which are accepted as part of the canon of scripture, were decided long before, but, it is my understanding that they were not all available simultaneously to the reader as we have, in one binding.

R
roadsign

Yes, yes, MC, sola-scriptura: our one and only authentic measuring line.

Yet consider our many “discernment” ministries - all zealously measuring up everyone against their plumb line of sola-scriptura - or so they think. But my goodness, their conclusions about Christian leaders and organizations make your hair curl – or rather, make your heart break.

One day I was feeling especially mischievous and emailed a discernment ministry, asking it they would like information about an organization that I thought was off track. They eagerly conceded. So I sent an explanation about themselves, as I viewed them, and at the end of the email told them who it was. I never got a reply. Okay, so maybe I was being naughty. But that experience did remind me that the human bent to assess ourselves as the ones on the plumb line, and everyone else as off-center. This is where it gets tricky when taking on the task of evaluating the words of others in light of sola-scriptura. It is possible that they are right and I am wrong. (In scripture, that possibility was not an option to most who are approached by a prophet)

A lady once commented on the countless fractures in the churches. She added, “It must be the Bible that is causing that”. Of course I told her, “No, it is not the Bible, just the misinterpretation of it.” I realize now that I gave her a weak answer. Really, it has to do with human nature and the spiritual forces of evil, the devil, who seeks to distort the truth.

Anyway, that’s an entire subject in itself. But it should beg the question: So what keeps us from falling victim to the devil’s schemes, and creating solos out of sola scriptura?

There’s more to the picture.

Diane

C
Compton

I hope this Luther vector can be related back to the thread itself...

I agree that we cannot accept anyone's words whole cloth just because they are considered a prophet or a teacher or an apostle.

Now never is this more clear then when we have 500 years of social change by which to judge someone.

I'm a child of Abraham, and a follower of Jesus, NOTHING more than that

Is this all that is true about you brother? Did you not recently say that you will labor politicaly for senator Obama? How will the next millineum judge you, a follower of Jesus, for supporting a man who protects abortion and homosexual unions? And how will history judge me for voting for George Bush? Perhaps harshly and perhaps rightly so.

We are not as removed from the sins of our age as we would expect Martin Luther to be from his.

My point here is all of this is that we men are more clay then gold. Let's believe in the gifts and callings of prophets...but let's remember that we are not such prophets that only drink from the crystal river to pour forth it's pure waters when we speak... all too often we find ourselves spewing from the polluted streams we drink from here on Earth. There is fear, hatred, and envy remaining even in our own prophets...how we respond to this self-evident observation is up to us. They are not above criticism but they're also not below grace. Their burden is real...but they remain clay.

This was clearly true for men like Luther and Calvin. I think it remains true for us today.

Grace brothers!

MC

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Compton wrote
I appreciate your point. I suppose I was purposely trying to provoke a distinction between the neccesity of the biblical and the accessory of the extra-biblical. [b]Oh, I see. Yes there is a distinction of course, but you seemed to be using it to denigrate (is that the right word?) true prophecy as well as false. [/b]
Quote:

I can't understand the logic that claims that all present day prophecy is false because it presumes to add to the Canon

I did not say that all propecy presumes to add to the Canon...but all prophecy does presume divine authority. Otherwise, why speak for the Lord if not with His authority?
[b] True. …I don’t claim any prophetic office, but have prophesied in local meetings occasionally. I am always careful not to claim such authority by saying “Thus sayeth the Lord”, as many do. If it really is a word from God to someone’s heart (or to the whole congregation) it will stand on its own merits. Those who are in the Spirit will recognise His voice. If I imagine it’s the Lord and it isn’t then those with discernment will know that also, and ignore it, as it deserves! [/b]

Sola Scriptura does not mean to exclude all other authority such as pastors and prophets...but to exclude all other measurements of authority. Martin Luther was more of a prophet in his day then we have perhaps seen in our day and he said, "The Word comes first, and with the Word the Spirit breathes upon my heart so that I believe."
[b] I agree [/b]

Since I belive in the gifts of the Spirit I do not see why a discussion of Cessation is relevant here. I simply believe we should subordinate and subject modern prophecy to the written word without exception.
[b] Sorry, you really did come over as more or less a cessationist! [/b]

As far as my relationship, indeed my sonship with the Lord, I base that also first upon His written word. (Which is breathed upon my heart by the Spirit.) This should not comes as a surprise...I expect my own son to regard my instructions literally without regard for his feelings. Yes I am blessed by his warm feelings to me, but I expect and try to support his belief and obedience based on my word and not his feelings.
[b] In no way did I intend to question your personal relationship with the Lord, just surprised that you expressed such amazement at what should be normal Christian experience. Its nothing to do with feelings, not really! I understand feelings as merely a by-product, or a natural human response, to His dealings with us.[/b]
Quote:

The Bible itself says that the written Word is not enough.

The written word is enough because it is God's Word. Not knowing the full meaning here, but still remembering that Jesus declared that His words sanctify us. The Bible would never outright declare it's insufficiency as your statement appears to do. I am not denying the need for spiritual grace to understand and believe the Word given...but I am rejecting without hesitation or qualification that the bible is inadequate revelation for a full relationship with God. The written word holds all the revelation we were intended to have, not only about salvation, but also about spiritual activity, economies, and heaven. No prophet will ever walk the Earth before Christ's return that will add or supercede what has been provided in the written word. There are no deeper secrets between God and the prophets that are not already recorded in scripture.

That is what I mean by "unnessecary"...I am not saying that the Spirit, either through myself or another believer (ala the "prophet") is unessecary..on the contrary the two testify of each other! Also I understand when Ravenhill declares that we "need" prophets, he is not talking about soothesayers but truth sayers...again this "need" is pointing to the neglected Written Word and not to augment it's insufficency. Indeed, wasn't it Ravenhill who said, "One day someone is going to believe the bible and then we are all going to be in trouble" or something like that! [b]I was thinking of John 6:63 and 2Corinthians 3:6, which to me means that the written Word is not enough![/b]

I am only saying that prophecies about future events, political events, personal events may or may not be useful...but if they are not expounding upon scripures they are indeed unnessecary...even if they 'come to pass.'

Agabus predicted a famine. (I believe this same gift is alive and well!) This 'word' was very useful and profitable to the church...but was it nessecary? I think it's worth noting that it was not... The patriarchs, the prophets, and the apostles recorded God's redemptive plan...this is nessecary.

[b] So you think that it was unnecessary for the Church to provide for those who might have otherwise starved??? [/b]

So I am not a cessasionist...but I have a sense of porportion. [b] I really thought you were a cessationist because of the way you talk. Sorry to have misunderstood you[/b]


Quote:

We desperately need a clear true prophetic Word into present day situations. - If only to warn against all the false prophets who are prophesying out of their own hearts

Well I think we agree completely. And how would you tell a true prophet from a false that speaks from their own hearts? Well since you ruled out the heart of the speaker...that leaves God's heart. And how do you validate this claim?

Scripture alone.

We are not that different I think. I think we are facing different directions; that's all...but not facing against each other. I think we are standing with our backs to each other, standing for the scriptures against two different extremes: You are perhaps against dead textualism and I am against too much extra-biblical revelation however benign and safe it appears.

[b]I believe you have it in a nutshell! Thank you for summarising so beautifully. We probably all react against our past negative experiences. After coming to the Lord, age 18, I was “brought up” in the midst of very strong “Reformed, Calvinist” traditions. A later theology course was more “open”, but at one stage we had to read part of Berkoff’s tome on doctrine (simply because it was the most comprehensive study available at the time. Berkoff, (bless him!) was so correct and “sound” but at the same time so dry and dusty – truly the “letter that killeth”!

Thank you for taking so much trouble in your reply, and being so gracious ablout it. In my experience many who, like you, hold to "sola Scriptura" often fail to take the trouble to understand what the other person is really saying; but leap to the attack at once if they sniff the faintest whiff of "heresy"

In Him

Jeannette[/b]

C
Compton

Yes, yes, MC, sola-scriptura: our one and only authentic measuring line.

LOL...I understand the obligatory tone of that response. I just needed to hear it affirmed. ;-)

Yet consider our many “discernment” ministries - all zealously measuring up everyone against their plumb line of sola-scriptura - or so they think. But my goodness, their conclusions about Christian leaders and organizations make your hair curl – or rather, make your heart break.

So very true. I couldn't agree more. So many specks...so little time to point them all out!

But it should beg the question: So what keeps us from falling victim to the devil’s schemes, and creating solos out of sola scriptura?

Well asked question...and an ongoing discussion in my own heart. I would like to say "love is all we need" but then i would sounding like John Lenon...because we also need truth.

At this point it would easy enough to dismiss your question by saying something like "Let's just focus on Jesus and take our eyes off man."...but that is easier said then done...especially when we don't want to be 'solo' acts!

I kind of like the possibilities in this closing statement...

There’s more to the picture.

The I'll stay tuned!

Blessings all,

MC

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roadsign wrote:
Time for another thread on "Cessationism perhaps?

It seems to me that the real challenge is learning where to draw the dividing lines between authentic Spirit revelation and the unauthentic. I have heard it explained that some lean too heavily on the Word, and some on the Spirit. Frankly, that is an impossibility! Spirit and the Word work together to make truth come alive in hearts.

I acknowledge the legitimate concern regarding the “over-reliance” on Spirit or related manifestations, but might I suggest that this is probably referring to a dependency on the WRONG spirit. After all, spirit can mean a lot of things. Personally, I believe that meaning of “the Spirit” has generally been changed to mean my emotions, or my senses, or my mood, or even evil spirits at work. And these are the spirits that false prophets rely on.

It all depends on which (S)spirit one is surrendered to.

My concern with attempts to downsize this spirit “overindulgence” is that we quench the real work of the Spirit. My former Baptist life has caused me to be very sensitive to this danger. You end up with a lot of ‘saved” people who are simply told that they have enough of the Spirit, and they don’t need to feel or experience it. So sad! You end up with “saved” people who are spiritually dead -thinking they are saved because they have never been encouraged to trust their spiritual instincts – or whatever you’d call it.

The Spirit is our life-line, and it is the life-line of true prophets. It is our connection with the head.

Diane

[b]Bravo! Well said![/b]

C
Compton

Littlegift,

Thank you likewise...

Thank you for taking so much trouble in your reply, and being so gracious about it. In my experience many who, like you, hold to "sola Scriptura" often fail to take the trouble to understand what the other person is really saying; but leap to the attack at once if they sniff the faintest whiff of "heresy

So true. And in another conversation I might have spoken more from your perspective. I suppose I was just wanting to confirm "Where does Sola Scriptura fit in all of this". For what it's worth...the harder I know it is to prophecy...the more I feel affection for those who desire this gift with a right heart.

At the risk of looking like Mr. Rogers, I wanted to include a little song here I wrote a while back for my younger children that might shed a little more light on my 'theology' concerning the relationship between the Word and the Spirit. (My children like music, so now and then I'm not above writing songs to convey to them the important but invisible things of the Lord!) I thought to post it here to show a little "behind the scenes" so to speak of my household...that not only children but also daddies and mommies do indeed depend on a vital and living relationship with Jesus even as we read his written word! :-)

Like a pilgrim that walks in a far away land,
I need a friend who walks with me
And helps me understand,
That I am never alone
As He takes me by the hand,
All the way to the Promised land!

How I love your word,
They are worth far more than gold,
Let them fill my heart,
flowing deep down in my soul;
That I may walk
In the way of holiness.
How I love your word!

There's a table that set
In the wilderness.
It has a place saved for me,
Right next to Jesus.
There is food for the hungry,
Room for the homeless,
And the poor have now become the blessed!

How I love your word,
They are worth far more than gold,
Let them fill my heart,
flowing deep down in my soul;
That I may walk
In the way of holiness.
How I love your word!

Blessings,

MC

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Hi Compton,

One thing stands out to me amongst your concerns about 'modern prophets' or modern prophecies - as you term them - apart from your insistence they should be compatible with scripture to be believed, and that is that you seem to be setting thoughts [i]against[/i] each other in an either-or way, where there is no need.

In so saying, I acknowledge that I haven't lived through the torrent of verbal and spiritual assaults which have, increasingly, stricken the American church, including the belief that politics and the economy could be changed by Christians into something pleasing to God. Where did anyone ever find [i]that[/i] in scripture?

But, this

I agree with Martin Luther is assigning not only a balance between the written word and our inward witness...but more importantly a sequence. First the Word, then the Spirit breathes the Word into our hearts.

Could there be an exception to this rule? Could the Spirit tell you something that did not originate first in scriptures? I guess I could not rule it out...but I can suggest it may not be for the body.

I was grappling with something in my sleep last night, which springs out of a word from scripture which the Lord has laid on another brother's heart to preach it, (a 'prophecy' of David's), and by morning, I was back where we all, I believe, have to be willing to come, which is..... that when those who had gathered in an upper room until the Holy Ghost was given (Acts 2:3, 4), and they began to speak under His influence, the [i][b]power[/i][/b] of their testimony was not that they could quote scripture to back themselves up, but that [u]they had [b]seen[/b] the risen Christ[/u], and were experiencing the prophecies He had given them regarding that particular day (of Pentecost).

Luke 24:49
"Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high."

Only after He had expounded the scriptures to the disciples after His resurrection, did they begin to put the whole thing together, so that Peter could quote Joel with such authority when it happened.

Jesus had said in His story of the rich man and Lazarus 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' (NKJV) This also, is a prophecy, which completely accords with what you said here

... all modern prophecies must be tested .... to scripture..... Having said that, I readily recognize there are good prophets hidden within the bad ones...sometimes within the same person. I accept this. But in order to detect the good from the bad we are left with only one proven and agreeable measurement.
But
and always have to be regarded as inferior to scripture
is not scriptural, brother.

I asked about this in the thread The Spirit of Prophecy, which KingJimmy posted, and the reply from philologos was

'1 Corinthians 14:3
But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.'

The 'test' is whether the 'modern' prophecy fulfils these criteria, remembering it is not possible to add anything eternal to the revelation of Jesus Christ, the Alpha and the Omega, the living Word.

1 Corinthians 1 (Young)
that the things that are He may make useless--

29 that no flesh may glory before Him;

30 and of Him ye--[b]ye are in Christ Jesus, who became to us from God wisdom[/b], righteousness also, and sanctification, and redemption,

31 that, according as it hath been written, `He who is glorying--in the Lord let him glory.'

Plunging wholeheartedly into these truths IS life itself to those who have received Jesus.

I don't think it's possible to keep going on with God, year after year, and simultaneously nurture, maintain, or protect an interest in one's image as a Christian in the sight of one's fellow man / 'believer', which seems to be something which goes hand in hand with exalting the messenger, instead of the message.

R
roadsign


Addressing some of MC's comments:

If someone is conformed to the world, but always rhpasodizing about the deeper spiritual truths they have recieved from the Lord...can we safetly say they are alive?

Indeed, they are dead! And disconnected from the Head (Spirit)
…. if some 'dead' Baptists are expounding on the scriptures week after week, with nary a prophecy in their midst...can we say they are dead?

Yes we can!! The same vital ingredient is missing. A Headless body – destined to stray further and further from God (think of ancient Israel)

Dead is dead, whether it is dry orthodoxy, or fluffy emotionalism.

I am presently reading the book, “Authority” by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. I think it provides the needed answer for us all – and address to my earlier comment:

I think there’s more to this

Lloyd-Jones describes our need to submit to divine authority – Christ, Word, and above all, the Spirit. I believe that the missing ingredient in so many of our lives and churches is this: AUTHORITY. We are not submitted to AUTHORITY – either the Word OR the Spirit. We make ourselves or fellow man the authority. You can never interpret the word correctly when you are your own authority (problem with many discernment ministries)

For now, rather than launch into comments from Lloyd-Jones’ book (which I hope to do at some point) I will use a real-life experience to form an analogy regarding this issue of AUTHORITY.

My present involvement in a symphony orchestra makes me suspect that AUTHORITY is more easily understood by my fellow musicians than by many Christians. Somehow, that one word, AUTHORITY rings over of all the other sounds. So I will attempt to draw a parallel between the application of AUTHORITY in the field of music and AUTHORITY in the Christian walk.

Naturally, we “musicians” are all divided - as individuals and as sections. You have the Schmaltzy Charismatic Strings and the assertive Baptism Brass, the clattering Sal. Ar. Percussion… ..( and then there’s me …. all alone on my keyboard – timid and fearful.)

Last week our first rehearsal for the next concert sounded dreadful. It would have been cruel to subject it the public to it. We were all trying to learn how to interpret the written word, trying to understand the heartbeat of our Master, the conductor. In essence, we were all learning how to submit to AUTHORITY - the authority of the composers intent, the style of the era, the appropriate way to use our instruments, the black spots on the paper – but above all – the intent of the conductor. It is hard to describe this degree of submission. You breath when he wants you to, every little finger moves in conformity to his wishes. You surrender your desires to be heard or to be hidden, (whatever your bent)
And it means a lot of work in your private life – practising, listening to the recordings, etc. Becoming submitted to authority is a big deal! But the rewards are awesome! You produce something absolutely breath-taking.

You see where I am going with this? Surrender to authority is not something that’s going to happen at 10:30 on Sunday morning. It is an entire way of life! You just can’t be your boss - ever.

My husband was helping his grade 9 student learn cello. The lad insisted on holding the bow in his left hand, because that was more “natural” for him. Essentially, he had no concept of submitting to authority of any kind, and in a few days he quit the music course.

Now, to bring this back to the “Prophet” theme: The word of the prophet is only as authentic as the person is submitted to the authority of God. And if it is God speaking through the person, we don’t have the option of evaluating it through our “opinions”. We do have the responsibility to submit it to the Authority of God, and the Spirit will always validate its authenticity. If the leaders of ancient Israel had done so, they could have saved their nation. They preferred to strain the gnats.

Now, you may say, we only need to look in the Bible and find verses that show us if this prophet is right or wrong. True, and yet, there is a great risk in this. It is possible to make the Bible say anything we want to hear, and be convinced by the most evil of prophets – simply because he CAN use the Bible to justify his authority.

Without the subjective experience of the Spirit, validating, guiding, etc, we are like a kite without the string. We’ll crash eventually.
More on that later… maybe..
Diane


C
Compton

Hi Dorcas,

I do not believe I have artifically set modern prophecy against scripure as a default posture. Instead, I find that simply measuring prophets by scripture (as best we can) is often viewed as antagonistic and legalistic. Such is also the case with fiat money...no one wants the gold standard and yet the dollar seems to be doing just fine. ;-)

I myself am not antagonistic to the prophetic gift. However, I find most of us our abit dishnest on this point...more of us will talk glowingly of prophecy but few of us will actually base our lives on a modern prophets predictions with the same urgency that we would scripture.

This is what I mean by 'inferior'. Is there a modern prophet that you could confess "Thy Words have I hidden in my heart..." This is how we regard scripture...a precious and unearthly treasure.

Have I found prophecy to be these things?

1 Corinthians 14:3
But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.'

The 'test' is whether the 'modern' prophecy fulfils these criteria....

Oh yes! I have recieved both uncanny comfort in a time of dispair, and penetrating exhortation in a time of pride. Jesus is indeed alive in His body.

Perhaps my use of the word 'inferior' is suspicious. After all the gifts are often under assualt from sectors of the church herself.
I might have achieved my point such as readily by asserting that the Scriptures are 'above' any modern prophecy.

So I can relent using the word 'inferior' as it may contain insinuations that the gift of prophecy is junk, shoddy, substandard, or even tawdry. This was not my meaning at all!

I was only trying to refortify airtight compartments between scripture and the gift of prophecy. They are different aren't they? Yes they are, and more then that....they are unequal. Again I may be getting myself into trouble with asserting this so cut and dry. I admit I am deliberately using unvarnished terms to make distinctions more clear. I want to avoid unreasonable disputes such as when you say that my regard of prophecy (meaning the gift and practice of)

[quote... as inferior to scripture
is not scriptural, brother.

I do feel this is an unreasonable counter claim to the self claims of scripture. And as you said, we measure prophecy by scripture and not the other way around. And not only prophecy, but all of the gifts, as well as our doctrines, assumptions, practices, cultures, and traditions are forever open to the critique of scripture. In this light, scripture is indeed above the gift of prophecy because it is above the prophet...the primacy of scripture is it's own testimony...and I am merely agreeing with it!

Now I am taking note that my view is technically not sola scriptura. My receptivity to the gift of prophecy at all may disqualify me from some stricter definitions of "Scripture Alone." Yet I still maintain I believe in sola scriptura because, although I am receptive to the gift of prophecy, at the same time I realize we remain blind without scripture to 'illuminate' and substantiate each individial prophecy's merit to us...and that without scripture there would ultimately be no reliable metric to differentate pentecostal/charismatic exectutions of prophecy from say that of the new age mysticism, or the 'inner light' or for that matter any false prophet.

So the scriptures are neccessarily above the prophet and as a result above their prophecies. I think we cannot stress this point enough, even if we have seen the mightiest prophets in our midst. Otherwise we would have no certain way of knowing if whether they speak for God or whether " their teachings are but rules taught by men.

Blessings,

MC

S
sermonindex

Hi Mike,

I think while you have strained out the word 'unnecessary' and now, 'inferior' from your original provokation to think about scripture in this thread, the next word on your hit list might be 'predictions', in the light of

1 Corinthians 14:3
But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.


I asked Spitfire about the place of scripture in prophecy, and she readily put me right with this verse:

Amos 3:7
For the Lord Jehovah doth nothing,
Except He hath revealed His counsel unto His servants the prophets.


In other words, this is part of what I was getting at in my post about the predicament of the disciples. They were living through the fulfilment of prophecy Jesus had made to them.

Yes, it tied in with previous prophecy recorded in the Old Testament, but, the specifics were missing from those - eg 'tarry in the city of Jerusalem until ...' In this sense, Jesus comforted them with the confirmation of what had been written.

This ties in with Diane's point about the witness of the Spirit, and is another strand of my point - that one has to know Jesus already - the Word - and ancient scripture, to know whether the Spirit could possibly saying 'amen' to a 'modern prophecy'.

I believe (to use a geographical analogy) there is a triangulation point to be obtained, between the word of the prophet, scripture, and the Spirit. I've heard 'prophets' basically quoting scripture, and it's just a dead work.

This is not what the [i]gift[/i] of prophecy is for, and perhaps we need to acknowledge that its operation is [u]dependent[/u] on the gift, rather than the [i]recipient of the gift[/i] (apart from their submission to God and His calling on their life, which are essential.)

And, they should be drawing attention to the work of God and His Word every time.

I
iansmith

Hello brothers and sisters, it has come to my attention that according to this thread I am headless and dead.

For the sake of clarification I have already spoken my thoughts on this topic in the Zac Poonen speaking schedule thread.

Some noteable Baptists working in God sanctified ministries: Brother Andrew, KP Yohannan, Paul Washer.

It's funny how everyone throws stones at Baptists but I've never heard any of these brothers talk about, 'those lunatics who think they speak in voices and prophesy but their lives show no real touch of the holy spirit.' Which is what I would want to say.

My pastor recently has spoken a lot on the Holy Spirit, thankfully he's spent a lot of time emphasising the importance of purity and the fruits of the spirit. You know, Love, Joy, Peace, Patience and all those... it's funny when I see a lot of people claiming 'greater spiritual gifts' when their lives don't even reflect the fruits.

Here's my prior post on the subject:

Thanks for the response Paul.

I knew you were trying to get a rise out of a Baptist but I really didn't know what your true feelings were, so I actually even went back and edited the post and put in 'someone' instead of 'you.'

I really don't want to argue on the forum, so I'd rather speak constructively. (Unless the topic is Islam, then I'm right and you're wrong... j/k).

I have to admit, until recently I've been pretty much tunnel vision as far as denominations go. My background in Childhood is Catholicism. I first heard the Gospel at an Evangelical Free church in middle school. In college I came to the Lord in a Southern Baptist Church.

Like Paul Washer said in his famous sermon (you know the one if you've heard it), I'm proud to be a Southern Baptist, because for the most part we get thing's right before others do -although no denomination is perfect.

I think Southern Baptists have pretty strong footing in theology, praxis and missions. We're conservative, we're mission minded, and our members live lives that reflect this daily.

One thing that I never learned too much about as a Baptist was the gifts of the Spirit, I think the denomination plays this down because it is dangerous territory. Southern Baptists tend to stress personal holiness and obedience over speaking in tongues and prophesy. Sometimes this leads to dead religiosity -however in my church it leads to humble discipleship.

I have no doubt that there are some Baptists who have a genuine gift of tongues, but because of the emphasis on modesty and humility it probably won't be tolerated in a worship services because it is and often has been a sournce of pride and boasting.

Baptists like Brother Andrew, KP Yohannan and Paul Washer aren't afraid to reach out and grasp the hands of a Pentacostal or Charismatic, as long as those believers are well grounded in humility, modesty and the foundational virtues of a servant of the Lord.

For example, Gospel For Asia is an interdenominational organization, but KP Yohannan is an ordained Baptist minister. KP and Zac Poonen are on good terms, Zac Poonen has even taught at GFA meetings.

Paul Washer talks lovingly about his friendship with Leonard Ravenhill... even getting past the fact that Ravenhill wasn't always the most kind in his speech towards Baptists =)

Brother Andrew isn't even afraid to meet with the members of Hamas or Hezbollah, he's not going to avoid meeting with some Pentecostals, Nazarenes or Charismatics.

What I don't like is when Pentecostals say that if I don't speak in tongues, then I'm not born again -I'm not the one putting up barriers here =)

Anyways, God Bless!

C
Compton

Hi Dorcas,

I like that...a 'hit list.' 8-)

Regarding prophecy as predicting...this is admittedly an area of uncharted waters for me. Not only because I do not predict (verses imagine or estimate) the future...but also because many attempts I have seen fail to be accurate. To add further fuzziness to any critique of this problem you have examples like Jonah or Abraham where God's will...or at least wrath, was altered by prayer or repentence! (An example where my Calvinist upbringing must face some of that critique from scripture I was mentioning earlier!) Was Jonah a false prophet? Hardly!

So how do I respond to future predictions? Well not with complete critique or censureship...but also not with complete acceptance...instead I draw what I can from the heart of their message. This is useful for prayer. I may not believe all the dates I am hearing for this or that event...but who can deny that there is an unprecedented call from heaven for this generation of worldly Christians to repent and return to a commitment to her first love? For instance, I may not be fully convinced of David Wilkerson's specific predictions...but I am heartily convinced of his message of repentence and also it's vital connection to our destiny.

I can recieve the "spirit" of a prophetic prediction, if not the dates. I do not concern myself with throwing stones just because a prophet has missed a date...my real concern is have they hit or missed the heart of God? I do not presume to say this approach is the 'proper' one. It is perhaps problematic, but it is how I've been able to proceed.

You see with so many counterfiets out there it's just hard to verify predictions...I am more comfortable testing the Spirit of prophecy then the dates and times. And so if a prediction comes to pass in some undeniable way I might say, "Well what do you know!!" Yet before hand who can tell?

All of this is a softer way of saying what I already said a few posts ago...that predictive prophecies are unessecary relatively speaking compared to the utter nessecity of scripture. For instance, if the economy collapses tomorrow and I refused to believe that it would happen in the exact manner or time frame as predicted, I do not think the Lord is going to hold me to the same level of accountability for that unbelief as if I rejected His scriptures. Indeed, if the prediction of a financial collpase was being fueled by a call for true scriptural repentence...I believe that I would not be accountable for doubting the dates, yet still be accountable for ignoring the heart of the message.

This is how I currently approach predictive prophecies. I suspect my approach is not unique in the Church. Many of us on one hand wants to keep a tender heart able to hear God speak, but we are also aware that even the best among us remain corruptable and fragile vessels. We are not dismissive outright or 'against' prophecy...on the contrary we see it's New Testament authenticity for the Church but we do not lean on it with all our strength...like we could with the scriptures in the New Testament.

Blessings,

MC

(Edit: PS...Maybe you could run a scenareo for me with this 'triangulation' idea.)

C
Compton

Some noteable Baptists working in God sanctified ministries: Brother Andrew, KP Yohannan, Paul Washer.

I have a high regard for Baptists. We can always stumble over the worst of a certain group, but in my childhood growing up, Baptists modeled for me careful bible study, balanced doctrine, and energetic ministry within and outside of the church. There are plenty of supernatural firecrackers in our churches these days...but among the Baptists there are some quiet Oak Trees who are as stable now as they were 30 years ago.

Bless you brother,

MC

S
sermonindex


Compton said

I do not predict (verses imagine or estimate) the future...but also because many attempts I have seen fail to be accurate.

[u]I draw what I can from the heart of their message. This is useful for prayer[/u]. I may not believe all the dates I am hearing for this or that event...

You see with so many counterfiets out there it's just hard to verify predictions...

And so [b]if a prediction comes to pass in some undeniable way I might say, "Well what do you know!!" Yet before hand who can tell?[/b]

For instance, if the economy collapses tomorrow and I refused to believe that it would happen in the exact manner or time frame as predicted, I do not think the Lord is going to hold me to the same level of accountability for that unbelief as if I rejected His scriptures. Indeed, if the prediction of a financial collpase was being fueled by a call for true scriptural repentence...I believe that I would not be accountable for doubting the dates, yet still be accountable for ignoring the heart of the message.

This is how I currently approach predictive prophecies.

Mike,

I'm amazed at the amount of 'predictive prophecies' you seem to have heard!!! Honestly. This is not what I would expect from a real 'prophecy'.

EDIT: Boy, I'm in deep water here. What I mean is, most of the prophecies I've heard fit the category in 1 Cor 14:3 - edification, exhortation and comfort, and these are ideal for praying into.

Another point you make by default, is the [i]lack[/i] of these facets, in your experience..... This leads me to say something you may find astonishing, which is, that when I've listened to prophecy in the past, I am listening specifically for God's word to me. I'm not interested in what He's saying to anyone else. I have enough on my plate to give Him an appropriate response immediately.... And to me, [i][b]that[/i][/b] is what prophecy is [i]for[/i].... responsiveness between God and man, and man and God, on the day, in the hour that He speaks. EDIT end.

For instance, I was thinking about Jesus telling the disciples to tarry in Jerusalem until..., and realised this was a command. It was not the kind of prediction you are talking about, which tickles man's ears and fears - at least, this is how I am 'hearing' what has put you off about 'modern prophets'.

The other thing that strikes me is how much the message is about external matters - basically the collapse of materialism in our time (if indeed that's what you meant by so much mention of economy, for instance.?) which should be a source of comfort to our general search for true communion with the Lord - gold tried in the fire, garments to cover our nakedness, eye salve that we should see clearly.... do you see what I mean?

Regarding my extract of your post which I've emboldened, I thought the way we know that a prophecy has been of the Lord, is that it does come to pass?

This is why we need the Spirit, to discern the presence of other features, for instance, as the prophet is speaking what is kind of witness are we receiving - regardless of whether the words are a harsh rebuke against some slackness, for our edification - or a word of comfort in time of persecution.

PS...Maybe you could run a scenareo for me with this 'triangulation' idea
Actually, I was thinking about whether I could, before you asked.... might have been the Spirit's prompting perhaps? ;-)

A clear and easy example, leaning on the scriptural injunction that the proof of a prophecy is its accomplishment in real time, would be when I happened to be in the same assembly as a lady who began to prophesy about a time which was coming in the UK, of unprecedented mourning... heaps of flowers in the streets and very much weeping and sorrow.

Over a short number of weeks, this burden continued to press on this sister. I had no reason to ask her or talk to her about it, but I recognised the confidence which accompanied her words. However, I was not confident to assert then, that this was a true prophecy. I can only say now wtih hindsight, that it was, because everything she said, did come to pass.

So, if I'd had the confidence I have now, perhaps I would have said the Spirit witnessed to the truth of this at the time.... which would have completed the triangulation.

The other thing about this particular prophecy, which was of the death of Diana, Princess of Wales, is that it does touch scripture, although I'm not saying this particular event IS IN SCRIPTURE. What I means is, the lion in Her Majesty's coat of arms, is the lion of Judah, and the unicorn is also a scriptural reference.

I have nothing more to say on this. No PMs please.

S
sermonindex

Hi Ian
You said

I have no doubt that there are some Baptists who have a genuine gift of tongues, but because of the emphasis on modesty and humility it probably won't be tolerated in a worship services because it is and often has been a source of pride and boasting.

I find that surprising - that it could be considered anything to boast of - that is.

No wonder, then, if exercise of spiritual gifts is very rare in Baptist circles!


...So Ian, why are you a Baptist - dead or otherwise?

Just wondered. 8-)

I used to be a Welsh Presbyterian (= Calvinistic Methodist), but don't have a denomination any more, thank God.

Jeannette

U
UniqueWebRev

Greg,

Thank you for your common sense!

It seems to me that a true prophet will be able to give several small short term prophecies that come true before anyone should believe the big, long term ones.

These days instead of asking for a sign, we need to keep a healthy skepticism of those who say, 'The Lord says...' A true prophet will be proven quickly, and would presumably, expect to be tried and tested.

Blessings.

C
Compton

I appreciate you taking the time to post your answer Linn,

I don't really know if I have heard more predictive prophecies then you...the subject just came up in our discussion.

Thanks so much for sharing your perspective on these things and bearing through mine.

Blessings,

MC

I
iansmith

Jeannette,

I didn't say the 'excercise of spiritual gifts' is rare, just emphasis on different ones... we focus on the fruits! On obedience and purity, teaching and discipleship.

I'm a Baptist because I saw the change that Jesus has made in people's lives through the church I've been attending for the last seven years.

I am sure that God is moving powerfully in other churches, but why move when you can see him moving in the church you're in! The teaching is solid and biblical, I'm really exicited about what the International Mission Board (IMB: http://www.imb.org/) is doing throughout the world in missions.

The Lord has put missions on my heart in a huge way, and I look around and there are awesome Baptists like KP Yohannan, Henry Blackaby, Brother Andrew and Paul Washer in missions! It's something I can get excited about as well.

I also think that immersion baptism is biblically necessary when it is available =P

I
IRONMAN

bro UniqueWebRev


UniqueWebRev wrote:
Greg,

Thank you for your common sense!

It seems to me that a true prophet will be able to give several small short term prophecies that come true before anyone should believe the big, long term ones.

These days instead of asking for a sign, we need to keep a healthy skepticism of those who say, 'The Lord says...' A true prophet will be proven quickly, and would presumably, expect to be tried and tested.

Blessings.

this is not always so. i think of Elijah for example. when we was leaving Ahab's palace, he told him it woul dnot rain in Israel except at his word and it didn't. now Elijah didn't really have much of a ministry by way for forthtelling (speaking the future as God told Him) but his main mission was repentance, mirrored by John the baptist. People didn't need any such forthtelling for them to know Elijah was a prophet of God, it was written all over him and people knew it. for example that gentile woman he was sent to for 2 yrs proclaimed after seeing the miraculous provision that Elijah was indeed a man of God.

Now with Jeremiah, Isaiah and Ezekiel for example, there was no such short term forthtelling to prove them prophets. again the people knew full well who they were. Ezekiel's prophecy concerning the falling of Jerusalem didn't happen for abuot 7+ yrs or so. Jeremiah started preaching as a very young man and the fall of the kingdom didn't happen until he was pretty old and eventually was taken to Egypt by some rebellious people. People knew very well Jeremiah was a prophet. Isaiah when speaking about the coming messiah for example, spoke of this centuries ahead of time and i don't recall anything which God told him to say which would pertain to the immediate future to prove he was a prophet. the people knew very well he was a prophet. then i think also of Samuel, Elisha, David etc who were prophets also, but had nothing much to say about the future.

to be a prophet doesn't mean automatically that one gets to forthtell the future. i think though we are very fascinated by that and tend to focus a lot on it to our own detriment. the truth is, a prophet speaks whatever it is God places on him to speak. indeed what the prophet is, is one who speaks the heart of God to God's people including himself. clearly from scripture we see that this doesn't always mean forthtelling the future. we miss this aspect of it which to miss the whole purpose of what a prophet is. :-(

i'm not saying that a prophet shouldn't be tested, but i don't think it is wise to put so much weight on whether he predicts anything as a means of proving because from scripture we see clearly that forthtelling the future is a part of the prophetic ministry but not the entirety of it.

God bless

U
UniqueWebRev

Hey, Jeanette!

I've been flummoxed by the kaleidoscope of denominational names and claims! Not having been brought up in a church, I've been free to take what is good from all of them, and shrug off the differences. Of course, even with Bible literalists, I can see conflict.

What is in the Word need not be disputed to the extent that it is, but doctrinal pride insists on being right. It is a pity that all denominations refuse to acknowledge the insights of the others, but worse, that few of them will agree to agree on much at all!

As for the spiritual gifts, a true gift of prophecy is to be most desired, according to scripture, but it seems to me, based on history, to be a very dangerous avocation. People seem to have a nasty habit of killing them for not saying the right things. And of course, if their prophecies never come true, the Biblical action would be to stone them. I myself prefer to let God take care of it.

It's one thing to prophesy the scriptures over someone's life - this at least would be exhorting, and definately edifying. To prophesy for the Lord, well, if you claim to do so, and are not, I tremble to think what would be the reaction in Heaven. One wonders that these many 'Prophets' are not more worried about it.

Blessings,

R
roadsign

Iansmith

everyone throws stones at Baptists

I am wondering if you are responding to my post. I admit, words sure have their limitations. Really, underneath it all I have a deep heart-felt burden for those of any denomination who, by association with their church, assume that they belong to the Lord. So many are measuring themselves against a mere fragment of the measuring rod.

Having been a Baptist for many years, I am all too aware of the temptation to rely on our excellent knowledge of the Bible and our conservative standards. Being in my fourth denomination, I can honestly say that we all need to be reminded that we cannot get to heaven riding on the backs of our denomination.

according to this thread I am headless and dead.

I do not know how you received this impression. Regardless - issues surrounding one’s connection with God are not to be taken lightly. If you are getting this sense from reading this thread, then it would be prudent to ask the Lord about it. After all, his judgment on the matter is the only one that counts.

That reminds me of a true story I once heard: One Sunday after church a lady approached a pastor and thanked him for saying such-and-such because it was just what SHE needed to hear. But he had said no such thing. Obviously the Spirit had spoken directly to her that day through he preaching. I suspect that many preachers have a story like that.

I praise God, that he is able to speak to our hearts and minds – even in spite of ourselves.

Diane

U
UniqueWebRev


IRONMAN wrote:
bro UniqueWebRev

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Greg,

Thank you for your common sense!

It seems to me that a true prophet will be able to give several small short term prophecies that come true before anyone should believe the big, long term ones.

These days instead of asking for a sign, we need to keep a healthy skepticism of those who say, 'The Lord says...' A true prophet will be proven quickly, and would presumably, expect to be tried and tested.

Blessings.

this is not always so. i think of Elijah for example. when we was leaving Ahab's palace, he told him it woul dnot rain in Israel except at his word and it didn't. now Elijah didn't really have much of a ministry by way for forthtelling (speaking the future as God told Him) but his main mission was repentance, mirrored by John the baptist. People didn't need any such forthtelling for them to know Elijah was a prophet of God, it was written all over him and people knew it. for example that gentile woman he was sent to for 2 yrs proclaimed after seeing the miraculous provision that Elijah was indeed a man of God.

Now with Jeremiah, Isaiah and Ezekiel for example, there was no such short term forthtelling to prove them prophets. again the people knew full well who they were. Ezekiel's prophecy concerning the falling of Jerusalem didn't happen for abuot 7+ yrs or so. Jeremiah started preaching as a very young man and the fall of the kingdom didn't happen until he was pretty old and eventually was taken to Egypt by some rebellious people. People knew very well Jeremiah was a prophet. Isaiah when speaking about the coming messiah for example, spoke of this centuries ahead of time and i don't recall anything which God told him to say which would pertain to the immediate future to prove he was a prophet. the people knew very well he was a prophet. then i think also of Samuel, Elisha, David etc who were prophets also, but had nothing much to say about the future.

to be a prophet doesn't mean automatically that one gets to forthtell the future. i think though we are very fascinated by that and tend to focus a lot on it to our own detriment. the truth is, a prophet speaks whatever it is God places on him to speak. indeed what the prophet is, is one who speaks the heart of God to God's people including himself. clearly from scripture we see that this doesn't always mean forthtelling the future. we miss this aspect of it which to miss the whole purpose of what a prophet is. :-(

i'm not saying that a prophet shouldn't be tested, but i don't think it is wise to put so much weight on whether he predicts anything as a means of proving because from scripture we see clearly that forthtelling the future is a part of the prophetic ministry but not the entirety of it.

God bless

Ironman,

The fact that they were not stoned to death presupposes that the short term prophecies had been fulfilled, and their 'apprenticeship', so to speak, would not need to be spoken of. They were alive. That would be enough for most people to trust the long term prophecies.

Still, I value your comments. Of the old Prophets we can only guess how much documentation was held by the Rabbi's of the time to cover a few long term prophecies. Perhaps the books of the Prophets were not admitted to the Scriptures until fulfilled.

Nowadays, though, with time getting short, Prophets need to have verifiable prophecies to be believable, and even then, one would need to pray over it to find out if the source was the Holy Spirit or the Evil One.

Many Blessings to you,

P.S. Have you seen my replies to you on the Rapture Question? I would value your comments.

P.S.S By the way, it's Sis, not Bro, but I love you anyway!!!

I
IRONMAN

sis UniqueWebRev
now that i know you're a sister... :-P

The fact that they were not stoned to death presupposes that the short term prophecies had been fulfilled, and their 'apprenticeship', so to speak, would not need to be spoken of. They were alive. That would be enough for most people to trust the long term prophecies.

i'm not sure that there is anywhere in the word which would support the idea that a prophet went through such thing. i don't know of any prophet who had to make some short term prediction to prove himself a prophet. Jeremiah certainly didn't, nor did Ezekiel, nor any others i can think of. however like i said, not every prophet said anything about the future and i think this is the point we miss. we place so much weight on that aspect of it we miss out on so much more. Elijah was known as a man of God to that gentile woman because of his conduct toward her and also she saw the miraculous provision of food because the last bit of food she had when he came didn't run out. also he was used of God to raise her son from the dead. he didn't say anything to her about the future.

also if we look at what the people subsequently did in response to the messages the prophets came with, we see that they knew these men were prophets but didn't obery the word of God. The message of the prophets was REPENT OR ELSE. well the else happened so we know the people didn't repent. The conduct of the prophet gave him away as such but also we know that the word of God cuts through everything and one can't escape it's convicting power.

Still, I value your comments. Of the old Prophets we can only guess how much documentation was held by the Rabbi's of the time to cover a few long term prophecies. Perhaps the books of the Prophets were not admitted to the Scriptures until fulfilled.

well like i said, there is so much more to prophecy than forthtelling the future. The bulk of the prophet's message is repentance. you will find that much much more time is spent in the prophetic books on God pouring out His heart concerning His people and not so much what will happen to them in the future as result. we need to come to grips with that because that is the essence of what a prophet it and as long as we see only the forthtelling aspect of it, we will miss out on the bulk of the heart of God to our detriment.

Nowadays, though, with time getting short, Prophets need to have verifiable prophecies to be believable, and even then, one would need to pray over it to find out if the source was the Holy Spirit or the Evil One.

the prophet speaks what God gives him and nothing more nor less. if you or i don't believe it, that's not his fault, it is our own. he may have nothing at all to say about the future like say samuel but he is a prophet nonetheless. now you hit it when you said that one needs to test to see if the word is from God or not. this is the bottom line.

R
roadsign

few of us will actually base our lives on a modern prophets predictions with the same urgency that we would scripture.

I think that there is something to be said here. Perhaps it has more to do with the way we respond to predictions than the predictions themselves. Even if predictions are of God, and we believe them, that doesn’t leave us clean and dry. IN fact, it is all too tempting to use predictive prophesies to indulge the flesh – turning them into chess games. Satan is a master at using truth to his own ends – moving us in ways that steer us away the purposes of our God.

One concern that I have regarding prophesies of imminent apocalypse/disaster/ second coming is that the devil can use them to steer Christians into a self-protective hole. That’s just where Satan would like us to be – no longer caring about others, or seeking to preserve those whom God loves – which is his precious human race… no longer caring about future generations. Keep in mind that the devil has been trying to exterminate mankind for a long time, and he is a master at tempting us to be his accomplices. That reality aught to be a heavy burden on the consciences of all who receive and give predictive prophesies. They need to make sure that the manner of their delivery moves hearts towards God, his Word, and other-centeredness - just as Christ taught. In fact, really, the focus aught to be on God and his love for mankind – not on the future event. Instill faith not fear.

Consider the value of these scriptures in terms of the preservation of the nation of Israel. Consider their modern implications: our responsibilities in the preservation of future generations:

“O, people, hear my teachings...
what we have heard and known...
We will not hide them from our children;
we will tell the next generation
the praiseworthy deeds of the Lord,
his power and the wonders he has done.”

THEN they would put their trust in God
and would not forget his deeds
but would keep his commands.”
see Psalm 78

A practical example:

My children like music, so now and then I'm not above writing songs to convey to them the important but invisible things of the Lord!) I thought to post it here to show a little "behind the scenes" so to speak of my household...that not only children but also daddies and mommies do indeed depend on a vital and living relationship with Jesus even as we read his written word!

Like a pilgrim that walks in a far away land,
I need a friend who walks with me
And helps me understand,
That I am never alone
As He takes me by the hand,
All the way to the Promised land!

How I love your word,
They are worth far more than gold,
Let them fill my heart,
flowing deep down in my soul;
That I may walk
In the way of holiness.
How I love your word!

There's a table that set
In the wilderness.
It has a place saved for me,
Right next to Jesus.
There is food for the hungry,
Room for the homeless,
And the poor have now become the blessed!

How I love your word,
They are worth far more than gold,
Let them fill my heart,
flowing deep down in my soul;
That I may walk
In the way of holiness.
How I love your word!

Blessings,

MC

U
UniqueWebRev

Dear Bro,

I have not been exposed to the all details of prophecy in the Old Testament, although I am familiar with them all.

My concern arises not from the Prophets of old, although I do not understand how Prophets can prophecy, and not be tested to see whether they are speaking from God or not.

My real difficulty is the prophets of the now, who claim much, but deliver little, who are vague, and speak not of repentence, as you remarked.

How are we to know if anyone is a prophet without the test of short term prophecy, particularly if longterm prophecies are given at the same time?

So many people I have met speak too freely of what God has said, had a word of this or that for someone, had visions that cannot be disputed because they are long in the future.

Is repentence the only key? For Samuel, as a prophet, knew when Saul was to be king, where the lost donkeys were, when Saul had lost the Kingdom, when he had found the next king to be, David, and when David had sinned with Bathsheba, all more clairvoyant faculties than future predictions. For all of these, they were statements or judgements of what was.

If I go by the old tests, I should be stoning several people I know already, yet I am reluctant to express even an opinion without more knowledge, particularly when the 'prophets' involved have a deep belief in what they are saying, what visions and out of body experiences they have had, and so on.

Please, tell me how I can know who is a prophet these days.

From your Sis, with blessings.

I
IRONMAN

hey sis UWR

My concern arises not from the Prophets of old, although I do not understand how Prophets can prophecy, and not be tested to see whether they are speaking from God or not.

well for those who prophecy now, i have found some who i immediately bear witness with. for those called to this work there is a sense of knowing one another somehow, it is hard to explain...but the bottom line is we ought to test all things, taken them before God and let Him try them for us to see if they are His or not.

My real difficulty is the prophets of the now, who claim much, but deliver little, who are vague, and speak not of repentence, as you remarked.

if a prophet doesn't speak of repentance,i am leary. this is not to say i accept everything prophet who speaks of such says, but the enemy is not in the business of trying to get anyone to repent...the prophet's conduct and character ought to reflect God. We also should seek God's counsel on what is said and He reveals His truth to us through His word, in visions and dreams (for those to whom He speaks in such ways) and so on.

Is repentence the only key? For Samuel, as a prophet, knew when Saul was to be king, where the lost donkeys were, when Saul had lost the Kingdom, when he had found the next king to be, David, and when David had sinned with Bathsheba, all more clairvoyant faculties than future predictions. For all of these, they were statements or judgements of what was.

Repentance is a big key i think at least in terms of the future and what is going to do. Samuel knew who to annoint though i'm unsure he knew of everything which was to transpire from that point. however i wouldn't call how he knew what he did clairvoyance but rather God revealing to him what he needed to know when he needed to know it.

If I go by the old tests, I should be stoning several people I know already, yet I am reluctant to express even an opinion without more knowledge, particularly when the 'prophets' involved have a deep belief in what they are saying, what visions and out of body experiences they have had, and so on.

well let's put the stones down and see what can be done here. as i said earlier, we ought to seek God out on this in all diligence and He will reveal to us in one way or another who an what is of Him and what is not. if it is the Spirit of God at work, He is unmistakeable. look out for a word on repentance for this is a chief message from God to us all.

indeed the prophet will (and should) have a deep belief in what he is saying since it is from God. it is not unlikely that they may have visions or dreams or even outer body experiences. these would obviously be harder to believe unless you were there. i know of some who have had such and for me it's not a stretch to believe such since i also have experienced these things.

i guess ultimately the mark of a prophet is that the Spirit of God has made a mighty impact on his life which is very evident. Christ is the Spirit of prophecy and so we ought to look for Him in what is being said and God is the only one who can reveal that to us.

S
sermonindex

Hi, Sis WebRev

Sorry not to have answered this before. I also hope that my recent prvate message wasn't out of order (I tend to send things then worry about having said the right thing, and there's no Edit on the personal messages!)

You said:

What is in the Word need not be disputed to the extent that it is, but doctrinal pride insists on being right. It is a pity that all denominations refuse to acknowledge the insights of the others, but worse, that few of them will agree to agree on much at all!

Not just between denominations but between individuals. I think you have gone to the heart of it - pride. We like to be right and often get angry or frustrated if our "pet" doctrines are challenged. Or we use "fringe" issues as an excuse for division.

Yet who can understand the Word of God fully, or any Truth expressed in Scripture, except God? (1Corinthians 2:1-12)

This should also be on the "denominations thread perhaps?

you also said:

As for the spiritual gifts, a true gift of prophecy is to be most desired, according to scripture, but it seems to me, based on history, to be a very dangerous avocation. People seem to have a nasty habit of killing them for not saying the right things. And of course, if their prophecies never come true, the Biblical action would be to stone them. I myself prefer to let God take care of it.
That sounds the best thing!

It's one thing to prophesy the scriptures over someone's life - this at least would be exhorting, and definately edifying. To prophesy for the Lord, well, if you claim to do so, and are not, I tremble to think what would be the reaction in Heaven. One wonders that these many 'Prophets' are not more worried about it.

Yes, that's true. That's why, as said before, I never liked to claim "Thus sayeth the Lord" as many do when prophesying (not that I'm a prophet as such, just occasionally get a "word").

I was in a small meeeting of the local church. with a visiting speaker who was very much of the "God is going to bless you" ilk. During the time of prayer someone had an utterance in tongues. I didn't have an interpretation, but knew it was the Lord speaking and that it was a strong challenging word to the church. As I began to pray that the interpretation would be given, this speaker came out with an extremely upbeat message that was supposed to be the interpretation but wasn't. It sounded fluffy and shallow, and obviously not what God was saying at that time.

I begged the Lord for the right interpretation, but it was as if He shrugged resignedly; "Forget it, they won't listen now"

How tragic!

In Him

jeannette

U
UniqueWebRev

Hey, Bro Ironman!

I perceive that you may be a prophet!

In my comment about, if being under the Law, I should be stoning several people, I am partially serious, although stoning is fortunately illegal these days.

Actually, I haven't even raised the point with those who speak so freely of what is to come. I do not want to judge the right or the wrong of it, merely to know whether to take them seriously. And when several short term sayings have failed to come about, I can't help but wonder.

Also, it is true that no repentence has been mentioned by any of these people, so I will be most wary of their pronouncements.

In speaking of the 'clairvoyant action' of many of the prophets, particularly Samuel, I meant it as a knowledge of what was, not what was to come, using the common word for seeing what is, but not in the occultic sense.

As I examine Samuel, for instance, he did not always speak of judgement, but acted upon God given knowledge, sometimes in joy, sometimes in great sorrow.

I myself am more than skeptical of 'prophecy', for too often I see what is self serving or gratifying in some way to the one who says, thus saith the lord!

Yet I am unwilling to grant visions and out of body experiences as being untrue, whatever their source, but it makes me fear for those that may be more into the occult, and only persuaded of the godliness of what they see.

Alas, having had some experience with the occult, from which Jesus protected me from, and dragged me out of, I fear for these people.

Please tell me more specifically what to look for. Can you speak more to the judgement side of things? What to look for or guard against?

Blessings from your Sis,

U
UniqueWebRev


LittleGift wrote:
Hi, Sis WebRev

Sorry not to have answered this before. I also hope that my recent prvate message wasn't out of order (I tend to send things then worry about having said the right thing, and there's no Edit on the personal messages!)

No problem, dear sis! And I've already started practicing your advice!


It's one thing to prophesy the scriptures over someone's life - this at least would be exhorting, and definately edifying. To prophesy for the Lord, well, if you claim to do so, and are not, I tremble to think what would be the reaction in Heaven. One wonders that these many 'Prophets' are not more worried about it.

Yes, that's true. That's why, as said before, I never liked to claim "Thus sayeth the Lord" as many do when prophesying (not that I'm a prophet as such, just occasionally get a "word").

I was in a small meeeting of the local church. with a visiting speaker who was very much of the "God is going to bless you" ilk. During the time of prayer someone had an utterance in tongues. I didn't have an interpretation, but knew it was the Lord speaking and that it was a strong challenging word to the church. As I began to pray that the interpretation would be given, this speaker came out with an extremely upbeat message that was supposed to be the interpretation but wasn't. It sounded fluffy and shallow, and obviously not what God was saying at that time.

I begged the Lord for the right interpretation, but it was as if He shrugged resignedly; "Forget it, they won't listen now"

How tragic!

In Him

jeannette

How can you tell the right interpretation of tongues is being given? Generally, when the Holy Spirit does move me to speak so, I am alone, either singing in praise, or praying, so I expect no interpretation.

I asked the Lord for a language I could understand when I sing, and He gave me some kind of archaic French, of which I can understand about half, which is far different from my spoken tongues, that I do not expect knowledge or interpretation from, but only to be a heart to heart chat with God.

But in a meeting with other Christians, how can you know what God is really saying? Is it a knowing, as in other insights? Or like when you hear God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? (To me they sound different)

Many blessings, and thanks for your message and advice.

I
IRONMAN

sis Forrest
i just had a thought about stoning. Christ didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfil it. perhaps technically we could still do that but we also have to consider the mercy which God has shown us and continues to show us daily...just a thought.

Actually, I haven't even raised the point with those who speak so freely of what is to come. I do not want to judge the right or the wrong of it, merely to know whether to take them seriously. And when several short term sayings have failed to come about, I can't help but wonder.

i do take such things seriously. i take them to God in prayer to see if they are of Him or not. i can sense (by the spirit bearing witness to me) if something is of God or not in terms of what will happen in the future. it is an interesting thing to be a prophet because somehow, God makes it very clear almost immediately if something which someone has said is of Him or not. i can bear witness to it. if however the person has said some things which have not come to pass, then we have to be more diligent about seeking God because obviously we don't want to be mislead. i would not be so quick to dismiss the person but i would be more cautious about the message and more diligently test it.

repentance is such a crucial thing and is a central theme in God's dealings with us and His pronouncments through the prophets concerning the future. i would certainly look for it in any such pronouncements.

In speaking of the 'clairvoyant action' of many of the prophets, particularly Samuel, I meant it as a knowledge of what was, not what was to come, using the common word for seeing what is, but not in the occultic sense.

oh i see. indeed this is very true of not only samuel, but Jeremiah, Isaiah and even Ezekiel to name a few. these men had intimate knowledge of what was going on in the palace of the king and also what was going on in the region. they had intelligence at the highest levels but the key thing is God showed them what the nations were doing in relation to what He was doing. i am aware of what is going on in the world but more importantly, i am beginning to see these things more and more in the context of what God is doing with us. there are those who know much more about current events in much greater detail, however without the Almighty Perspective, it doesn't mean much and one can't see clearly into the future.

I myself am more than skeptical of 'prophecy', for too often I see what is self serving or gratifying in some way to the one who says, thus saith the lord!

indeed there are those like Balaam who sell themselves for money or some other gain. the true prophet knows that God makes every provision for him. although elijah was at cherith for a couple of years in hiding, God fed him and gave him water.

Yet I am unwilling to grant visions and out of body experiences as being untrue, whatever their source, but it makes me fear for those that may be more into the occult, and only persuaded of the godliness of what they see.

the enemy has and does counterfeit things and can do so with the prophetic since he is aware of some things which are to come. for those who are plainly in the occult, then we know the source.

Please tell me more specifically what to look for. Can you speak more to the judgement side of things? What to look for or guard against?

it seems to me you know what things to look for. the message of repentance
does it bear witness in your spirit?
does it violate what God has said in His word?
does this appear to be a message designed to give the messenger some sort of gain?

seek God out in His word and in prayer and He will make it all plain for you.

God bless you sis

S
sermonindex


UniqueWebRev wrote:

LittleGift wrote:
Hi, Sis WebRev

Sorry not to have answered this before. I also hope that my recent prvate message wasn't out of order (I tend to send things then worry about having said the right thing, and there's no Edit on the personal messages!)

No problem, dear sis! And I've already started practicing your advice!

LOL, so I notice :-)


How can you tell the right interpretation of tongues is being given? Generally, when the Holy Spirit does move me to speak so, I am alone, either singing in praise, or praying, so I expect no interpretation.

I asked the Lord for a language I could understand when I sing, and He gave me some kind of archaic French, of which I can understand about half, which is far different from my spoken tongues, that I do not expect knowledge or interpretation from, but only to be a heart to heart chat with God.

But in a meeting with other Christians, how can you know what God is really saying? Is it a knowing, as in other insights? Or like when you hear God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? (To me they sound different)

Mmm, interesting question. I don't really know... Maybe different people's experiences, or ways of sensing what God is saying are different. It would be good to have others' input to that one.

I do find that, when someone speaks audibly in tongues I often find myself saying things like "YES!" and "AMEN!", without having a clue what is being said. Usually this is when its a prayer, but not always.

Other times I maybe have some sense of what is said but not an interpretation that can be understood with the mind.

Sometimes a tongue is obviously worship, or prayer. A prayer may need interpretation, so, as Paul said, everyone can say amen to what is prayed. Even a worship utterance might sometimes be interpreted I suppose.

I have almost never interpreted a tongue, and only once given something for interpretation. That time I knew somehow that it was a prayer, but didn't know what it was about. No-one seemed to interpret and after a pause the meeting continued. One or two people prayed but there was still no interpretation.

A few minutes later a young man prayed earnestly for the children of the church and I knew that this was the interpretation. Don't know how - how [i]do[/i] we know anything spiritual?

Maybe these examples are what Paul meant (1Corinthians) by "divers (various)kinds of tongues" - not different languages only but different uses.

Re: not expecting interpretation when you're alone, it [i]is[/i] possible to prophesy to yourself. I've done it, but usually write it down (having a terrible memory for spoken words!). Usually its some kind of exhortation, or, only too often, a loving rebuke! In that case, if the tongue came first, you would have to ask the Lord for the interpretation.

An interpretation, by the way, isn't a direct translation, but gives the sense of what is said in tongues,

Love in Him

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

Dian said:

They still always talk of a world-wide "vision" and how they are going to "impact the world for Christ", but I've seen it too many times. Their "vision" is just that, it's their vision, not God's. Most of the people who go there are always "fired up". They've been fired up for 15 years. That's all they ever are. The same ones are at the altar week after week getting prayed for and strewn about the floor like rag dolls while their lives never change.
I must know you. We've gone to the same Church.
///////////////////////////////////////////////

A friend of mine and his wife are both prophets. He has been down the road very much like you. He has been shunned, rejected, by the Church that he was attending. God gave him a message and he presented to the Pastor. It was a dark day for him, he left the Church and just keeps to himself. The LORD speaks to him and his wife and they compare notes.

So I understand where your coming from, I've seen it first hand.

C
Christinyou

Who is the Prophet? Who is the toungue Author? Who is the only gifted One? There is only one answer, it is Christ Jesus. When He speaks, it is the Holy Spirit who distributes any gift that will build up the Body of Christ.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, [that] shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Who will guide us into the best gifts? Who will speak in us? Who will distribute these gifts?

1Cr 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Who is the one and only true prophesier of the brethren? Who is Love and who are we to follow into this gift of prophesy?

1Cr 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Cr 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual [gifts], seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Hbr 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Christ is our all, including being the Gifted One. He is our Spirit and we are His brethren by birth of the Father, that is rebirth.

And who is the One in all that supercede's, all that we think we are, He is our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, just to name a few.

We are never to understand that we are the gifted ones. We would surely misuse the Gifts and they are already being thus.

In Christ, the Gifted One: Phillip

S
Spitfire

We are never to understand that we are the gifted ones. We would surely misuse the Gifts and they are already being thus.

I think this statement may be just where the problem is located. Why do people think prophets are "gifted"? It's the calling that is lonely and gets you persecuted and killed. Why is that a gift? That's like getting a present with a rock in it.

The truth of the matter is, we all have spiritual 'gifts', but they don't make us 'special'. And whatever 'gift' we have is not because of our own choosing. Humility is not in denying that something is your gift. True humility is in embracing your gift as just such, a gift from God, not because you're special, but because God has need of you. He had need of a donkey once, too.

I don't think Elijah denied his calling. He knew he was called as a prophet and Elisha earnestly coveted Elijah's gift. What about that? He wanted a double portion. It's all in the heart, Brother. Who really loves God? That's it. Who really loves God? And what is loving God?

Art Katz used to say that prophets were jealous for the glory of God. They are all about God's glory and the battle that is going on in the spirit realm over the glory of God. They are tenacious about it. They're fightin' mad about it. "Let me at 'em, let me at 'em! I'll kill 400 prophets of Baal with my bare hands!" They're emotional about the glory of God. Prophets are emotional people, but emotional people are not necessarily prophets.

Art used to say things like, "do you love ____? You don't love it, unless you salivate over it." You're eyes have to roll back into your skull. But then again, when you go around salivating over the glory of God with your eyes rolled back in your skull...people think you're crazy. What a gift! Dian.

S
sermonindex


Spitfire said

The truth of the matter is, we all have spiritual 'gifts', but they don't make us 'special'. [b]And whatever 'gift' we have is not because of our own choosing[/b].
The other thing about a 'gift', is that it's a function of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and to single out a person to ask them to stop moving in their gift(s), is a kind of muzzling of God's intention to bless the body with growth in whatever areas He had planned to touch through that gift, while allowing others to minister according to their leadings.

With regard to prophecy, I agreed completely with what Krispy said in his reply to Dian's apology, about it being more often than not an opportunity taken in the moment of its relevance in a private conversation. But, just speaking for myself here, who never has had to give 'a word' in the way it comes to some others to give it, in a trumpet voice to the world, or the local church, these words from God also come at the time, as a word for that day, to be responded to immediately in prayer, or received to heart silently, and moved on from in just as natural a way as Krispy's converstaions.

Rather like the current popular trend to rubbish academic learning, in the secular world, it has become okay within Christian circles to suggest that the person with a word for a whole group of worshipping saints, is trying to be [u]over[/u]spiritual, as a kind of self-protection from pseudo-charismatic delinquency.

We all need to keep listening for the voice of the Shepherd, [u]and following[/u] His leading, regardless what others do or do not hear from Him at that same time.

Perhaps it is fair to ask for us to cast our minds back over the times one or another here has come forward with testimony of special times in God's presence. Often, the person with the testimony, is [i]the only one[/i] who has been moved in that way, on hearing the same 'word'. For instance, when William Carrol preached in the evening after Carter Conlon's Angry Watchmen sermon, someone here listened to the whole thing in tears. But no-one else had that testimony.

As we give each other room - thanks to you all for giving [i]me[/i] room - we will, I really do believe - continue to find that the impact of ministry on one person, is completely different from another - and [i]that's ok[/i]. It's just the gift of the Holy Spirit doing His work in us.

S
sermonindex

As we give each other room - thanks to you all for giving me room - we will, I really do believe - continue to find that the impact of ministry on one person, is completely different from another - and that's ok.


Thanks for giving YOU room ???

Wow, that you would even feel the need to say that. If I said that at Church, they'd look at me like - What?

The Church is The Church - whom is giving room to whom?

Well, you've got me on that one Sis - but I sure do respect your gist. But we'll stand before GOD over who we don't give room to. That scares me more than anything - and quite a cause of depression with me. Still haven't broken through that depression yet - but GOD Knows.

As you opened that with "As we give each other room" - LORD I pray we do or we'll have to reckon with HIM. He's pretty jealous over His kids - you know.

Phew - this brought up feelings in my spirit that I can't quite get out in words right now Sis - but I thank you that you did touch something in there. I felt that surge of being His Child and that same jealousy He feels over [u]each[/u] of His Children and it's a very good but fierce feeling - stronger than what even us as parents feel for our own. Phew! Thanks!

S
sermonindex


I started to read the verses below, and felt I should post them here. The words that struck me were 'spare not'.

The [i]ability[/i] to 'spare not' as well as the [i]gumption[/i] to 'spare not' are not given to everyone. I believe this is [i]part[/i] of what it means to have received this particular gift - a gift being an [i]enabling[/i]; all the necessary parts are included in the package, so that the whole thing works properly when put together.

Isaiah 58
1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

{aloud: Heb. with the throat}


2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook [u]not[/u] the ordinance of their God:

they ask of me the ordinances of justice;

they take delight in approaching to God.


3 Wherefore have we fasted, [i]say they[/i], and thou seest not?

[i]Wherefore[/i] have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge?


[color=0000FF][God replies]

[i]Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.[/i][/color]


{labours: or, things wherewith ye grieve others:

Heb. griefs}

S
Spitfire

Annie, I'm not sure what you meant by all that, but it felt really important. When the words come, will you please share them with me/us? Thanks, Dian.

S
sermonindex

Hi Sis, I will try but can't too much now, am late for nursing home visitation - but there are some things I can recommend.

Leonard Ravenhill and Watchman's Nee's book [url=http://www.voidspace.org.uk/spiritual/watchman_nee.shtml]"The Body of Christ: A Reality"[/url]

And this that has come to mind -

[i]'They came first for the Communists...
but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews...
but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Unionists...
but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics...
but I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me...and by that time...
there was no-one left to speak up for me.[/i]

- Rev. Martin Niemoller, commenting on events in Germany 1933-1939


And -


[b]"GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD ~ LET THIS MIND BE IN YOU WHICH WAS ALSO IN CHRIST JESUS."[/B]


Sis, I eat one child portion meal a day. Just one meal a day for 5 years, as unto the Lord, for the 'world' and I haven't lost weight - I stay my normal weight. I spend every waking minute WITH Him. Doing nothing other than what HE leads and 'HE' IS FAITHFUL. We can buffet these bodies and have as much of HIM as we choose - or we can entertain ourselves with the things of this world.
Only one life will 'soon' be past - only what's done For Christ will last.
Am I perfect? No - but I cling to Phil 3:7-15 for dear life and Romans 8:28 & 29.

I personally need tons of quiet time - I recommend that to be the only way and fasting and LOVE, FAITH and HOPE.
Putting much more confidence in prayer than what I say to anyone. HE works, not us. Our faith is increased as we stay believing that "He Knows those which are His" and in the end - faith in that will keep you sane.
All we owe anyone is to love them - and no better way than by commiting each other to Him, our Loving Savior, in prayer. Love one another fervently.
I love the Beatitudes. They also keep you sane.
LORD BLESS and maybe can TTYL here!

S
Spitfire

Oh Dear Annie! and Dorcas! You guys just said something so loaded! So...IT! It's a mystery. Oh Dear Lord, for the words to tell it! But I'm not sure it can be told. Maybe it has to be intuited.

Ok, I'm gonna ramble right here. Mike where are you, Brother, cause you sometimes understand my ramblings. I'm just gonna cut loose and let my heart run, people, so be patient.

I awoke this morning thinking about that scripture in Ephesians 5:32, [i]"This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."[/i]

You see, it all started for me about 13 year ago when I left my husband for another man. I had lived in a tumultuous marriage where there was violence and discord for 19 years and I had just come to the end of being able to go on. I met someone I liked better (at the time) and so I went with him (it's much more complicated than that, but my testimony is on SI somewhere). But, let me tell you folks, I went from the frying pan into the fire. That's an old saying, but in my case it translates like this, if I thought it was bad before...I ain't seen nothing yet. I ended up marrying the man I had left my husband for (we had a child together out of wedlock). Oh yeah, folks, this is a hideous tale.

Well, about 6 years into this marriage, I got serious with God, because I was desperate. It happened one bright August afternoon when my alcoholic husband came home drunk and tore the kitchen cabinets off the wall with his bare hands and picked me up by the neck and threatened to kill me. I knew right then that I wasn't going back to church. I knew right then that I didn't know something...something really important about the "mystery of Christ and the church" that I needed to know. I knew I had been in church my whole life and nothing I had learned in church had prepared me for that moment. I knew I needed to know God. That's all I knew. And so...I set out on a quest. The next day, I called my sweet pastor and told him what happened and I told him I was dropping out of church. I had been up all night praying to God...or should I say wailing to God? Me and my children had spent the night at my sister's house and I had just laid in this tiny bed in the attic and sobbed unto the Lord, begging Him to teach me how to do this...this life. I knew it was easy for God. I believe His way is right. So...I knew there was something really important that [i]I[/i] didn't know.

Hey folks, don't leave me now, please, I have something to say, please.

That was in August '04. That's when I found Sermonindex and began listening to sermons by Leonard Ravenhill and A.W. Tozer and Art Katz and Paris Reidhead. God took me apart piece by piece like an old car in his garage. He dismantled my so-called Christianity and when he got all those rusty parts spread out on the floor, there was so much sh-- in there I didn't recognize. I was saying to God, "What's that?" And he would say to me, "I don't know, you tell me?" And I would try to figure out where it came from and whether or not it even belonged in the new thing that God was going to assemble called, "Dian-The Disciple of Jesus Christ".

Oh, Dear Lord, there isn't enough time or space to tell this. Ya'll ain't gonna read all this. I wish I could just stand on a car hood and talk to everyone here at SI today, cause my heart is so full...

God help me! I want to tell you guys what God has been doing in me! So...I realized that yes, my marriages were a disaster, but more than that, I realized that I didn't know God enough to make a difference in that disaster. So...I turned my attention to knowing God. I knew Jesus would not be confounded by my situation. I knew Jesus had the answer, so all I had to do was really know Him.

In Oswald Chambers, My Utmost For His Highest, he says on the last day of the year, December 31st, "...God is the God of our yesterdays, and He allows the memory of them in order to turn the past into a ministry of spiritual culture for the future..Our yesterdays present irrepairable things to us; it is true that we have lost opportunities which will never return, but God can transform this destructive anxiety into a constructive thoughtfulness for the future. Let the past sleep, but let it sleep on the bosom of Christ. Leave the Irrepairable Past in His hands, and step out into the irresistable Future with Him." And again on May 8th, OC says, "God wants us to venture our all in abandoned confidence in Him...Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love...The real meaning of eternal life is a life that can face anything it has to face without wavering. If we take this view, life becomes one great romance, a glorious opportunity for seeing marvelous things all the time."

Oh! I love that! "The real meaning of eternal life is a life that can face anything it has to face without wavering." That is so good! So I set out to stay in this marrige and make it work, by the grace of God.

I'll try to shorten this in hopes that you will finish reading it. God has been teaching me how to trust him, how to "hold my nerve" in the face of a bloody battle. He has been teaching me how to live by faith, but it all started right after I quit church and started meeting with two other desperate ladies in my home for Bible study. One day, we were reading and we came to this verse, Matthew 16:35, "For whoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." As I meditated on this verse and determined to "lose my life", I realized that this is the crux of the gospel. And over time, I've identified the key tap root in my life that was going to have to be cut and how God was going to cut it. I've realized that everything hinges on me loving my husband, accepting his humanity and failings and loving him in spite of them. So much of my life (I've been married since I was 18) I have felt just...trapped. I have been in these marriages...married to men whose faults stick out like a sore thumb (not that mine don't, mind you), and constantly feeling like I've got to disassociate myself with this person. It must happen several times a day that I think to myself, 'this guy's an idiot', but just last night, as I lay in bed talking to God, I realized that this desire or urge that I have to disassocaite myself from my husband is so ungodly. I realize that I must draw myself unto him in spite of his faults and failings...like Christ does the church. He came to us while we were yet sinners and asked us to marry him. He loves us with a love that has forgiven our...every failure and frailty. What love! Jesus never wishes he could get away from us and disassociate himself from us! What an amazing love! Jesus doesn't sit in our living room (spiritually speaking)thinking how he wishes he were somewhere else. Can you imagine that? Jesus is commited to His church. He totally believes in His church an He totally plans to spend eternity with Her. Oh, My God!

It's the love. The Love. The world will know that we are His disciples when they see how deeply we love one another. How quickly we judge one another and think to ourselves we would better off if this one would just leave. Oh, Lord. Help us!

What does all this have to do with prophets? Prophets have to love. They have to love God and God's people and righteousness and be jealous for the glory of God and if they haven't laid down their lives, lost their life for Christ's sake, they can't be prophets at all because they speak as an expression of the heart of God...and that is such a mystery.

S
sermonindex

Yeah! :-D

Prophets or not - it's ALL about His Love.

But that why Ravenhill is the BALANCE.

He obviously got angry - but you could feel the love in him Beyond Question and nothing of himself in that anger.

He's more like Paul. Not the "Mush God" as Ravenhill would say - but he knew what "righteous anger" was and he was "right-on" when it boiled up in him.

Then to temper reading him, there's Chip Brogden and Nee and O.C. and whoever else we need in this school of Christ - prophets or not. We're all in the same school and Christ requires the same out of all of us. Super Saints for the Love of JESUS. It's our Love for Him that is feirce as a mother lion, yet so gentle with her cubs. That mix - the balance. Though I've seen momma lions get pretty rough on her cubs too - yet she'd lay her life down for them.

Head for Super Saints [u]for the Love of Jesus[/u] and we won't even need to look at what gift or calling we have been used or are used in - we'll just be "like Him" in this world and nothing shall be impossible to Him [i]through[/i] those who've got their eyes off of themselves and are madly in Love with HIM.

"Desiring the gifts" thread. ;-)


GLAD you got that all out. We need to sometimes - humbling, yet what a blessed 'movement' when it happens.

Bless you DIAN. ALLLLLL His Very Very Best to you.


JESUS LOVES HIS CHILDREN !
:-D

S
sermonindex

Is this the whole article?

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