More on God's Grace-- Is it Merited or Not?

Ormly,

I have one question for you: how do you define grace? Is it mercy? Enabling power from God? Another definition? The definition will determine the answer, IMHO.

ginnyrose

Dear Ormly,

God's grace simply means God's "favor", something God gives according to His own will. More or less, it is His willful choice of love toward someone. This grace is "unmerited" because we have done nothing to deserve or earn it. God gives His love, not because of who we are, but because of who He is.

It is often difficult for us fallen creatures to ever imagine such a thing. When we give love to someone, it is due to a reason. We love person X, because he or she is Y. We love God because of what He died for us on the cross. However, God loves because God is love. He has no other reason. We did nothing to earn this love or deserve it. His love is entirely His choice.

Blake

Grace= God giving us something we don't deserve

Mercy= God not giving us something we do deserve

Not very deep but profoundly true.

Ormly,

You want chapter/verse to prove the point...sorry, but I cannot find one for what I am about to say.

Many have said we do not deserve the mercy and grace of God. I disagree. Actually, I wish someone who show me a chapter/verse to prove that we do not deserve God's mercy and love! Or am I ignorant? Anyway....

If I had birthed a child, who did not ask to be conceived and then born, then abandoned it, what would people think? I would be considered cruel, ruthless, coldhearted, and above all, unloving. (And where does this concept come from?) If God had done the same with humans, knowing full well what Adam and Eve were going to do and then not provide for them would have been the epitome of cruelty which in reality is what the devil does!

Logic, brother. But to me the mercy, grace of God is all rooted in love, in caring for the weak, knowing what is ahead and providing for it. Can't prove it by chapter/verse but to me the concept is woven throughout the entire Word of God, culminated in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now what say?

ginnyrose

Blake is absolutely right, and I must diabolically disagree with Ormly. We were DEAD in our sins. How can a dead man do anything to merit God's grace? He had every right to leave us in our state of wickedness, to destroy us forever and "wipe the slate clean." But it brought Him more glory to greatly humble Himself to look upon our plight, and do the impossible -- give His own Son for our redemption.

Dear brothers/sisters, I sense a very low view of God's righteousness in this discussion, and an exalted view of humans' so-called "worth." We were worth nothing until Christ shed His blood for us. It's not 99% God's work and 1% our work that saves us -- if so, we would deserve 1% of glory, God forbid. It's all HIS doing.

Christ died a bloody death on the cross for me, and the only thing I brought to the table was the sin that made it necessary.

Personally I believe that understanding the Grace of God is much like taking the ocean up in your arms, or at least as much as you can, and calling it the ocean. I'm not sure the bible defines Grace, but in the same way people place a definition on faith using hebrews 11:1, which really is no definition, I suppose people will try as they will to define Grace.

Ormy--do you give definitions or explainations of.....???? :-(

Ormly,

You have started two threads concerning the same topic. Can we please keep one thread for this topic.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14366&forum=35]Concerning God's Grace[/url]

Ormly you said something interesting on the 'tribes' thread that correlates to this discussion.

Many in the world wait to hear this message. They wait with prepared hearts because they have recognized Grace as presented them to their understanding and live according to it, however imperfect their endeavors. It is a heart issue and God foreknows who they are who have a heart for Him.
Jesus Said, "Go and make disciples". He never said to go and get people saved. It should be obvious that what I am saying is that they already are and the message given should be about the kingdom of God and its Leadership.

Please explain this further. Are you saying that it is possible for an adult who has never heard/read the gospel or about Jesus to go to heaven when they die?

Dear Ormly,

#1. Unmerited favor is not a Biblical term.

What is a Biblical term? How do we define a word as being Biblical or not?

Titus 3:5a (NAS) He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy

#2. It can be readily seen that God's favor, hence His Grace, is always conditional as is His promises.

On what condition?

Titus 2:11 (NAS) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Grace is given, but in order for anyone to have grace, it must be accepted. Grace cannot "be" with someone, until they have it. That is why it is also said:

Ephesians 6:24 (NAS) Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with incorruptible love.

#3. You make no mention of Folk before the Cross.

My friend, I am not sure we entirely disagree. If you were to develop my whole theology based upon that one comment above, you would missing out on so much. You asked about grace and not about faith. Salvation comes through both grace and faith. Paul said:

Ephesians 2:8 (NAS) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Grace is God's part and faith is our part. The work is entirely of God, all we must do is trust in God (believe in Jesus). When we come before the cross, we are convicted of sin. However, God is offering forgiveness if we are willing to accept Jesus as our Lord. God is offering a gift, all we must do is accept it.

God's love is not conditional. God is offering His love. However, we do not have His love unless we accept it.

God is seeking unity by love (a marriage), and such a unity comes by both people giving love to each other. God gives His love by grace. We give our love through faith. When God affords His grace and we accept that grace through faith, The Holy Spirit unites as one with our spirit, thus bringing about salvation. It involves participation from both God and us.

#4. This is NOT something someone earns as a works but rather because of his response to God who has revealed Himself.

Indeed, with this I agree. Though I would add: "who has revealed Himself through Christ."

Response is NOT a work but rather the key that unlocks the door to God's Grace.

Here is where we disagree. You would believe that God has given grace only to those who have received it. However, I believe that God has given grace to all humans who have ever lived. Jesus died for all. God loves everyone.

This is made clear in several scriptures:

Titus 2:11 (quoted above)

2 Peter 3:9(NAS)
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (NAS)
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

If you notice, 1 Tim 4:10 clearly makes a distinction between being savior of all men and believers. Paul said, "especially of believers." Christ has offered salvation to all, but only the believers accept the free gift offered by God.

Therefore, the love of God is unconditional. He has given His love to all humanity. Salvation is a free gift offered to all.

I hope this helps.

In love,
Blake

Are they justified by faith in God or not, however they see Him of believe Him to be?

Would you please be more clear in your answer.

I feel like I am on the show 'Who's line is it Anyway?' and we can only answer questions with questions.

Ok, I will play along...'Has everyone in the world heard the gospel?'

JaySaved said
Has everyone in the world heard the gospel?

Ormly replied:
Yes! But not the way I suppose you would believe it. Yet it is convincing to the heart of those God foreknew would hear it, regardless of the form it takes/took or the contents of its message except to persuade that one, there is a God to be worshipped.

You are stating that the 'gospel' persuades a person that there is a God to be worshiped. The gospel spoken of in the New Testament is much more than a persuasion that God exists.

1 Corinthians 15:3-8
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me."

You are confusing what creation tells us with what the gospel tells us. The gospel goes much, much further.

So what did I violate with my remark?

You are failing to see the difference between what is revealed in creation and what is revealed in the gospel (as my previous post stated)

Ormly, I know you do not like commentaries but please read what is found in Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary

Titus 2:11

11. the grace of God--God's gratuitous favor in the scheme of redemption. hath appeared--Greek, "hath been made to appear," or "shine forth" (Isaiah 9:2, Luke 1:79). "hath been manifested" (Titus 3:4), after having been long hidden in the loving counsels of God (Colossians 1:26, 2 Timothy 1:9,10). The image is illustrated in Acts 27:20. The grace of God hath now been embodied in Jesus, the brightness of the Father's glory," manifested as the "Sun of righteousness," "the Word made flesh." The Gospel dispensation is hence termed "the day" (1 Thessalonians 5:5,8; there is a double "appearing," that of "grace" here, that of "glory," Titus 2:13; compare Romans 13:12). Connect it not as English Version, but, "The grace . . . that bringeth salvation to all men hath appeared," or "been manifested" (1 Timothy 2:4, 4:10). Hence God is called "our Saviour" (Titus 2:10). The very name Jesus means the same. to all--of whom he enumerated the different classes (Titus 2:2-9): even to servants; to us Gentiles, once aliens from God. Hence arises our obligation to all men (Titus 3:2).

I wonder how this verse fits into our understanding of grace...
And the child [Jesus] grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
(Luk 2:40)

In Christ,

Ron

Ormly,

It is hard to take you serious sometimes because you make some of the most off the wall comments I have ever heard.

I wish you well. I pray that your eyes are enlightened to the truth...I really do.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Brother Ormly,
I believe you used this verse in an attempt to show that all men have a measure of faith, and if taken out of context it would mean that. But first we must establish who Paul is addressing in the writing of this epistle. Our answer of course is the saints in Rome, or those who had been born of the Spirit.
So it would be safe to say that Paul is saying to all those in the Church at Rome that God has given each man a measure of faith.

Thus Paul goes on
Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in [b]one body[/b], and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 [b]So we, being many, are one body in Christ[/b], and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6 [b]Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;[/b]

Do you see what Paul is getting at here? Obviously the unsaved are not a part of the Body of Christ as they are outside of the promises throught their unbelief, and love of sin rather than God. Paul is saying that we the Church are one body, and so we must act as one body using the gifts we have been given in humility not boasting, but instead using them according to the faith that God has given us.
Unfortunately many errors are made when we try to apply Epistles to unsaved folks. Sure there are portions that would apply to them such as the promise of judgement, need to repent etc. But overall they are written to those who are in Christ and not those who are against Christ.

If I may add one more example of how this tragedy can happen. Let us suppose a preacher uses Romans 8:28 to address a gathering. Now the unbeliever who has their own god will nod right along with this. "Yes, of course all things are working together for good. Yes I love God."
Of course the problem is that they don't love the God of the Bible, because they do not know Him, but they go away thinking that they're okay with God, and He's okay with them.
Why do they think this? Because noone has told them that they are an enemy of God through their evil deeds, but Christ has taken their punishment that they may be justified. Can you imagine what would happen to this person? Probably the same thing that happened when Jesus began to upbraid the Pharisees who thought God was for them simply because they had the Temple. They bacame indignant toward Christ, but meanwhile the outcasts who were convinced of their utter despair came to Him to be healed, and touched.
Be blessed bro, and smile :-D

Rom 12:1 [b]I beseech you therefore, brethren,[/b] by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
So this is where Paul starts Chapter 12
Notice it is to the brethren, or those of the faith. Then he goes on to the verse you pointed out. But there is a little phrase, [b]to every man that is among you[/b].
This means those of the brethren, or those within the Church, not the universal application to every man, but every man(person) in the Church.

#1 Why do YOU call their deeds evil when you don't know them? Thats presumption.

#2. The righteous are justied by faith...theirs.This happened long before the cross. It kept righteous out of hells torment upon their death to await freedom to enter the presence of God through the peace made with God in their behalf. See Roman 5.1

Let's back up a couple of verses from Romans 5:1 to get an idea of Paul's thoughts
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him(Abraham) for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 [b]Now it was not written for his sake alone,[/b] that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 [b]But for us(the Church) also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.[/b]

Do you see that Christ died for, or because of our offences? Notice also the righteousness is imputed if we believe on Him who raised Jesus Christ. But to beleive that He was raised also means we have to believe He died, and why did He die? because of our offences, or breaking of the Law which was the surety of our damnation.
There are none righteous outside of Christ as He alone is the ONLY righteousness God the Father will accept. So to be in Christ is how we are accepted, and have righteousness imputed for our faith.

Brother you know I love you, and I am glad that we can have "civil" discussions now. We maynot have gotten off to the best start, but praise our God that He can soften nimrods like us :-P

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
Rather than open a can of theological worms, I will simply say that there can be no faith without a "supernatural" work of God so that we see something of worth in Christ.
I am sure that even from your own experience, ther came a sudden moment where Christ was worth all, whereas before He was not beuatiful or desirable. I firmly believe that this can only happen by God's grace and mercy.

Brother you know I love you, and I am glad that we can have "civil" discussions now. We maynot have gotten off to the best start, but praise our God that He can soften nimrods like us

I am still waiting for a 'civil' discussion with Ormly.

Ormly wrote:

I'm noticing something about you, also. Your delusional.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14366&forum=35]Example of Ormly's civil conversation[/url]

In reference to what of those who never heard of the Messiah but believed in God through His creation, then I would ask you what of the Egyptians who had a sun god, a moon god, and every other kind of god imaginable? They had faith in a god, but it was not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So were they "justified"?
Of Pharoah we read
Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: [b]but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.[/b]
Exo 14:28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.
So did Pharaoh and his hosts go to Abraham's bosom even though they sought to kill God's people?
What I am getting at is this. The covenant Abraham was under was sealed by circumcission, and was based upon faith.
Then the Mosaic covenant which was that of sacrifice. The folks were only "justified" by the sacrifices they partook in. This was true even to those who were not Hebrews, but dwelt with Israel in the wilderness.
Now if we follow what I think you are saying, God would be a cruel monster for destroying the people around Israel for worshipping other dieties.
All through the old testament God tells His people not to be like the nations around them. Not to worship in the groves, or the high places, or to worship Astoreth, or Baal etc.
So would you say that because these folks worshipped nature, or a diety of their own making they were justified by their faith? or were they worshipping a Satanicly inspired lie, and thus refused the true and living God?

As you mentioned that Abraham was foreknown by God, would this not be grounds to say that all who "chose" to worship Jehovah in the OT were foreknown, and thus foreordained to believe?

Just trying to track with ya, and get an idea of where you're coming from. I hope you're not saying that everyone will be saved because Christ died for the whole world.

Lets have it that God would say to you: 'I gifted you with a brand new home and the doors are locked.

Again, this is where we disagree. God did not lock the doors to His gift. Salvation is a free gift available to everyone. Jesus died for everyone.

Blake

beenblake wrote:

Lets have it that God would say to you: 'I gifted you with a brand new home and the doors are locked.

Again, this is where we disagree. God did not lock the doors to His gift. Salvation is a free gift available to everyone. Jesus died for everyone.

Blake

Right, Blake. DEAD men, dead in their sinfulness, cannot even muster up enough goodness in their hearts to "open the door to Jesus" -- even that comes from God Himself. He deserves 100% of the glory, not 99%.

A.W. Tozer's sermon (the featured sermon right now) exhorts us -- whatever teaching "makes Christ more important, more lovely, more necessary, more glorious" -- then we know that teaching is of God. What some of our brothers/sisters have been saying makes Christ a little LESS important.

And it was Not because they worshipped -- any god-- but because some LIVED righteous lives that led to a worship of something or someone, as a result of believing there to be one. That's the way it was, wasn't it?

Yes, but then why usher in a New Covenant with better promises as Hebrews tells us? If we could live righteous lives, and find favour with God based on our righteousness, then why did the prphet Isaiah say that our works were as filthy rags? Why the cross if man can be righteous enough to warrant God's favour?

That promise is more than just paid up fire insurance.

But I see the grace of God as both a thing, and a person. For grace is the ability to perform as God would require, but we know that apart from Christ in me I cannot do this, thus grace becomes a person.

Nicely put, Roaringlamb, never saw grace as Grace, the Person !! indeed so..

Hallelujah !

Roaring, can you not agree with the whole of my remark......

"Can any live righteously sufficient to enter the very presence of God?? No! One needs the righteousness of Christ imputed to him that the cross accomplished for us. A better promise God has for us this side of the cross. That promise is more than just paid up fire insurance."

.......and not just comment on the bottom line?

His picking and choosing is influenced by man's disposition; the testimony of himself, foreknown of God.

Romans 9:14-18
(In response to God's election not being based on man's works but simply because of God's call...]
14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

Orm could you check this out, and let me know what you think?
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14400&forum=35#111144]Mans' Will Free Yet Bound[/url]

From my perspective it is not so much a matter who is or is not godly, as the by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified, but rather dead or alive.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, [b]as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,[/b] for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless [b]death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,[/b] who is the figure of him that was to come.
1Corinthians 15:21 [b]For since by man came death,[/b] by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Corinthians 15:22 For as [b]in Adam all die,[/b] even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

So now if a man is dead in trespasses and sins, and dead because of sin, how then shall he live?
Man cannot give spiritual life to himself as he is not God. God alone can give life, and quicken those who are dead "in Adam" by placing them "in Christ"
Let us throw aside all of our deeds, and works for none of them will bring life to dead souls.

I don't believe it can be found in the scriptures where God ever violated[s] man's will

Salvation itself is a violation of man's will because he cannot save himself which is an affront to man. There are many many instances of God violating man's will all throughout the Scriptures, and I am thnkful that He violates mine as He alone knows what is best for me. Granted He does not impose His will as tyrant, but as a loving gracious Father who seeks to conform me to the image of His Son.

Ergo, His picking and choosing is influenced by man's disposition; the testimony of himself, foreknown of God.

Tag you're it :-P

i just want to say i love gods grace and that his grace saved me and even though i don't know all of the answers about the grace of god i know he loves us all and just wants us to walk with him in a simple faith and i want to say that you lord for your grace and for what it has done in all of our lives

Ormly,

If you will not listen to me then please listen to roaringlamb. He is telling you the truth.

Ormly wrote:

His picking and choosing is influenced by man's disposition; the testimony of himself, foreknown of God.

JaySaved wrote:

Romans 9:14-18
(In response to God's election not being based on man's works but simply because of God's call...]
14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

Ormly wrote:

That also means choosing verses of scripture that meet what I have written, not those out context that can make anyone say anything and then it be argued against.

You just don't get it do you? Romans 9 has everything to do with God's picking and choosing. It explicitly spells it out that God's choice is based upon God himself that has nothing to do with man. Please pray about what is being said to you.

Dictionary- MEANING OF GRACE- UNMERITED FAVOR-
I am guilty to. The Dictionary is the source of this particular bit of leaven.

rowdy2

I am glad you're laughing as this is a vary good conversation, "as iron sharpeneth iron"
I am 34 years old, but I don't see what has to do with anything as out of the mouths of babes God has perfected praise.

Salvation – peace with God- reconciliation – the erasing of the sin of Adam

I am curious as to why you believe salvation to be peace with God. For as far as I can tell from Scripture, salvation is delverence from the power and penalties of sin, or enemies. Peace with God however comes from justification as we see here
Romans 5:1 Therefore [b]being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:[/b]
Of course salvation in itself is multi-faceted
Past- I have been saved(justification)
Present- I am being saved(sanctification)
Future- I shall be saved(glorification)
See how wonderful the work of God is in our being brought from death to life!!!!

Now as far as reconiliation, I would agree with you that the state that Adam forfeited because of sin, we who are in Christ have regained Praise God!!!
Again though this is grace, because God did not grant us what we deserved, bur rather gave us abundantly more thatn any could have hoped for, namely Christ.
And you could also say that God granted us mercy by not giving us the reward of our transgressions.
Laugh away my friend, but these are very key theological truths that form the bedrock of the Christian faith, and that is the only reason I would hope all of us get a grasp on these as they point to the amazing love God has for His children.
Blessings to you brother Ormly :-)

I guess I didn't say all I meant to. I was wondering if you meant that salvation was limited to peace with God, which I don't think you do. ;-)
Oh well, say what we will, Christ is Lord, and I give much love to you.

I am glad to get to know more about you, and as always do respect what you say except when you say that I am a "Calvinist". I am no such thing brother, I simply view Scripture as it is. Perhaps my view of man has lent credence to a view similar to that of Calvin, but I am a Christian first and foremost and only.
I too look to my own experience of salvation, and I realize that I had no desire for God, He was actually the last person I wanted to deal with. Yet in His sovereignty, He orchestrated events in my life that really to be honest left me no other choice. It was a crossroads where had He not had mercy upon me, I do not know what would have become of me. But nevertheless, I could not resist the offer of Christ(because of His Beauty, Majesty, Mercy, Compassion upon a worm like me), so I surrendered to Him, and have never regretted it.
If this makes a "calvinist" then I am sorry, this is the reality of what I have gone through, and i would never in a million years tell someone to deny what they have experienced, but would rather poke and pry to get a better picture of why this person is the way they are.
Brother/Elder Orm,
May our Father bless you indeed, and all your work. We are both weak men who serve and love an Almighty God.

Why don't we use what the strongs says to define grace. The strongs say this:

1) grace

a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech

2) good will, loving-kindness, favour

a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues

I believe just what it says and I like to tell people what it says under a) above. Then if you are under God's grace then your heart and life are being influenced by God's Holy Spirit to turn to Him and to continually become like Him. If these things are not happening then maybe you are not under His grace.

If we are being tempted to sin and we cry out to God, "Father please give me grace", then He will answer and turn us to Him and help us increase in Him and His likeness.

Notice that in the strongs definition it does not say unmerited even though we all know that we don't deserver or earn it.

Those are just my thoughts, I think we make it more complicated than it really is.

God's grace is His divine influence upon the heart and the reflection of it in the life.

God bless,
Mike

One must purify his own soul. How is that accomplished by him?

By obeying God's word which is only truly possible by God's grace and influence upon our hearts. As Peter says below, obeying the truth through the Spirit.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Mike

If I said every man has a testimony of himself revealing his true disposition, that only God is privy to and revealed to Him by His foreknowledge that guides His selections,you want to take issue with that and spam much scripture you believe counters that statement when it is a truth you just haven't given much thought to

I must know more about this position. Please tell us more about man's 'testimony of himself revealing his true disposition.' Also, I would like to know Scripture that supports that God uses this 'testimony' as the guide to choosing people.

Please provide scripture to back up your claims.

If you had a document written that would be wonderful.

Thanks.

Brother Ormly,
I was wondering how you view the following Scripture
Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Romans 3:10 As it is written, [b]There is none righteous, no, not one:[/b]
Romans 3:11 [b]There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.[/b]
Romans 3:12 [b]They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.[/b]
I would mainly like to focus upon vs 11
"there is none that understandeth"
Here is what Strong's says about the word used for "understandeth"
G4920
συνίημι
suniēmi
soon-ee'-ay-mee
From G4862 and ἵημι hiēmi (to send); to put together, that is, (mentally) to comprehend; by implication to act piously: - consider, understand, be wise.
And here is what Thayer has to say
G4920
συνίημι
suniēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to set or bring together
1a) in a hostile sense, of combatants
2) to put (as it were) the perception with the thing perceived
2a) to set or join together in the mind
2a1) i.e. to understand: the man of understanding
2a2) idiom for: a good and upright man (having the knowledge of those things which pertain to salvation)
Then, Paul goes on to say
"there is none that seeketh after God"
Here is the info for the word "seeketh"
G1567
ἐκζητέω
ekzēteō
ek-zay-teh'-o
From G1537 and G2212; to search out, that is, (figuratively) investigate, crave, demand, (by Hebraism) worship: - en- (re-) quire, seek after (carefully, diligently).
And Thayer
G1567
ἐκζητέω
ekzēteō
Thayer Definition:
1) to seek out, search for
2) to seek out, i.e. investigate, scrutinise
3) to seek out for one’s self, beg, crave
4) to demand back, require
Part of Speech: verb
Now if we go by what you are saying, that man has as it were a light within, or knowledge of God with which man seeks after God, then that flies in the face of this Scripture.
Of course Paul is quoting from Psalms 14:1-7, and 53:1-6, which if read also seem to condemn man for his wickedness.
Why is this important? Mainly because Paul is painting the blackest, most graphic picture of mans' wicked state so that when he moves into Romans 4 and 5 and begins to speak of God's mercy, and grace, and His justification of fallen man, that those things would shine forth like the most beautiful beam of light and hope to the ones who are reading this Epistle.
Just for a moment, forget the terms of calvinism(again I am not a Calvinist, but you are judging me as such perhaps because of terminology I have used) by which you are put off, and honestly, and prayerfully read those verses in Romans.

I am not saying that man cannot do "charitable" deeds to one another, or keep portions of the moral Law. But man even in doing what he sees as good is so far from God's goodness that all our all works are as filthy rags compared to what He desires. Nor am I saying that man does not have a conscience that becomes troubled when sinning, but we must solve the question of who draws, and who seeks.
I echo my brother jay in asking you to present Scripture alone, not conjecture as to your view. If it be found Scriptural, I will take back what I have written. But until I am convinced by Scripture alone my view is as I have stated.

Lastly, let us go about this strengthening in the mutual love and respect of brotherly kindness, for if it denigrates into personal attacks there shall be no fruit, but only a grief to our Father in Heaven.

Lastly, let us go about this strengthening in the mutual love and respect of brotherly kindness, for if it denigrates into personal attacks there shall be no fruit, but only a grief to our Father in Heaven.

Amen.
Ormly, I have no ill feelings for you and I pray that you have none for me. We have engaged in a heated discussion that I pray will draw both of us closer to God and deeper into Scripture.

Thank you roaringlamb for sharing this.

One thing that has blessed me in this discussion is the "pathos" with which each of has in viewing the Scriptures. It is refreshing, and also healthy(to a point).
Many godly men specifically Whitefield and Wesley defended their views, and amazingly still did the work of the Lord. While they may have disagreed on "soteriology", neither doubted the wickedness of man, and the righteousness of God.

Lets do that.
Tell me who wrote this, who it was written about and why?
Then we can go from there.

Ormly,

Please stop playing these games and answer questions that are directed to you.

EDIT
-----------------------------------
Lets do that.
"There is none" speaks of everyone. That's too broad a brush, includes too many righteous people. So perhaps you can say who wrote this, who it was written about and why?

Then we can go from there.
-----------------------------------

Thank you for editing your original post.

I won't do your homework for you nor chase your rabbits.

If we are going to have a discussion then you must answer questions.

"There is none" speaks of everyone. That's too broad a brush, includes too many righteous people. So perhaps you can say, who it was written about and why?

Well the Romans were Gentiles who had come to faith in Christ, and Paul is building a background for them to comprehend the great work of salvation, and the marvel of justification that they had received, and also the grace the Jews had rejected because they would not accept it by faith.
But then in the original context from which Paul pulls these passages(Psalms) they speak not just of the Hebrew world, but of the full range of humanity.
But now brother I must ask you why you continue to use "circular reasoning",
and "deconstuctional" ways of dealing with this issue?
If the Scriptures say all, would it not be safe to say it means "all"? Or perhaps it does mean all of the individual ones that make up a group, but that is still "all". Likewise "none" does not mean some, or a few. But rather "none" or zero.
Please take time to construct you theses on your beliefs and present it. I can wait, we do not need to respond simply to keep this post going. I would rather wait a week or so, and read a solid Biblical presentation of your thoughts on this matter, than to continue to carry on putting out the little fires you start with one question only to have another fire started by you with another question which ultimately gets neither of us anywhere.

EDIT: Double post

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ormly wrote:

"There is none" speaks of everyone. That's too broad a brush, includes too many righteous people. So perhaps you can say, who it was written about and why?

Ormly tells us who it was written to and why:

All, the Jews, are guilty in not, getting the point of it, turning to God for who He is by faith, believing rather the letter of the law, though demanding, was what God was DESIRING.

You failed to note that verse 9 clearly lumps the two (Jews and Gentiles) as all under sin. Paul then immediately says that of these two:
- There are none righteous
- Not a single one is righteous
- There are none that understands
- There are none that seeks after God.
- All are gone out of the way
- They are all become unprofitable
- None do good
- Not a single one does good.

I wonder where you find these ‘righteous people’ when Romans 3 is read in the proper context? Are there righteous Gentiles?

As an outsider looking in, has anyone looked at original lang. before commenting, just a thought. There are things we dont pick up on in english :-D

Is this a dead thread or does anyone have more to say :-( javascript:%20justReturn()

Much of the Church is bereft of understanding as to the true meaning of grace. Somewhere along the way, someone coined the phrase “God’s unmerited favor” to define God’s Grace. This erroneous man-made definition has spread like wildfire throughout the Church. It is accepted without question simply because someone passed it on, along with all the other erroneous traditions of man.

The Hebrew language does define grace as “favor” within the context of its use in the Old Testament. For instance, Genesis 6:8 says, “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” Another verse uses “favour,” translated from the same Hebrew word: “But the LORD was with Joseph, and shewed him mercy, and gave him favour in the sight of the keeper of the prison.” (Genesis 39:21) The “grace” of the Old Testament was simply that of finding favor in the eyes of God or, sometimes, man.

In the New Testament, “grace” has a completely different meaning. James Strong defined the Greek word “charis” as “graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act… literally, figuratively, or spiritually: especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude.” This definition was translated into the following English words: “acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).” These words reflect the meaning of “Grace” in the majority of verses throughout the New Testament: "especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life."

God’s divine influence is the work of the Holy Spirit in all who come to rely upon Christ for salvation. When we surrender to the Spirit of Grace we are “entrusting our spiritual well-being to Christ.” Paul made clear the understanding of both Faith and Grace when he said he had been crucified with Christ, and Christ’s life now lived through Paul because of Paul’s faith in Him. The simple reality is that Paul relied on the Life within him. He followed with the words, “I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.” (Galatians 2:21) If Paul had attempted to be righteous under the Law, he would have been denying Christ in him. God’s Grace is the power of the Holy Spirit in us – it is so much more than mere “favor!”
:-)

When God "favors" an individual NT or OT, what is the substance of His "favor?"

In Christ
jeff

Psalm 119:17-20

"Deal bountifully with Your servant, that I may live and keep Your word. Open my eyes, that I may see wondrous things from Your law. I am a stranger in the earth; do not hide Your commandments from me. My soul breaks with longing for Your judgements at all times."

The revelation of Himself pretains to many aspects of one's life.

In this Scripture, what aspects do we find between the Father and a son?

In Christ
Jeff

King David wrote:

Psalm 40:9-11

"I have proclaimed the good news of righteousness in the great assembly; indeed, I do not restrain my lips, O Lord, You Yourself know. I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart; I have declared Your faithfulness and Your salvation; I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth from the great assembly. Do not withhold Your tender mercies from me O Lord; Let Your lovingkindness and Your truth continually preserve me."

David testifies that the Lord's righteousness is in his heart. How does this aspect relate to the idea of the often quoted "filthy rags?"

What is this all about?

In Christ
Jeff

Hi Jeff,
David was speaking of the Lord's righteousness - not his own. Isaiah 64:6 is where you will find the words "filthy rags" and Isaiah is speaking of our own "righteousness" which could be called "self-righteousness."

In Psalm 40:9-11, David is speaking of declaring "right" (Hebrew #6664) when he used the first "righteousness" and the second "righteousness" in the passage means "rightness" (Hebrew #6666).

Jesus is our Righteousness when He dwells in us, but what we do in our own strength (or "flesh") is "self-righteousness." Another reason we must be born again. :-D

Ormly wrote:

Is our "self-righteousness" corrected simply by being born again? Is that like a magic wand being passed over us?

I'm not sure of your definition of "self-righteousness" Ormly.

If Christ comes in to dwell by His Spirit, our righteousness should be of Him because He IS our Righteousness. The new birth is the transformation from self and flesh to a new creation in Christ Jesus. A life of daily surrender to the Spirit will allow Him to live His life through us. We would be grieving the Holy Spirit if we were to turn back and attempt to be righteous in our own strength.

Sis wrote,

David was speaking of the Lord's righteousness - not his own. Isaiah 64:6 is where you will find the words "filthy rags" and Isaiah is speaking of our own "righteousness" which could be called "self-righteousness."

I agree...King David possessed his Lord's righteousness within his heart. This is the distinction that must be recognized. Man unsaved, is absent of the Lord's righteousness and is unable to please God or satisfy His law. Yet we find in Scripture that God reveals to man His righteousness that changes ones life's motivations and understanding.

King David writes...

Psalm 4:1

"Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness! You have relieved me in my distress; have mercy on me, and hear my prayer."

Is King David, according to Scripture, claiming that he himself possesses God's righteousness?

In Christ
Jeff

Psalm 7:8

"The Lord shall judge the peoples; judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to my integrity within me."

I have heard many commentators state that David was not correct when he wrote about the righteousness that he posssessed. Then they will always bring up his sin that was to come. I see something else...

I believe that the above Scripture is correct according to the Holy Spirit's speaking through King David...

What do you believe?

In Christ
Jeff

King David wrote:

Psalm 40:9-11

"I have proclaimed the good news of righteousness in the great assembly;..."

How was David enabled to proclaim "the good news of righteousness..."

Does it come all at once or is does it come by the Lord teaching one, the Lord opening one's eyes to His perfect law?

In Christ
Jeff

King David's son Solomon also speaks about "righteousness" and how men are enabled by God to overcome their own unrighteousness.

Prov. 2:1 My son, if you receive my words,
\tAnd treasure my commands within you,
2 \tSo that you incline your ear to wisdom,
\tAnd apply your heart to understanding;
3 \tYes, if you cry out for discernment,
\tAnd lift up your voice for understanding,
4 \tIf you seek her as silver,
\tAnd search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 \tThen you will understand the fear of the LORD,
\tAnd find the knowledge of God.
6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;
\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,
\tAnd preserves the way of His saints.
9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,
\tEquity and every good path.
10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,
\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 \tDiscretion will preserve you;
\tUnderstanding will keep you,

Who does Solomon identify as the source for understanding
righteousness?

Galatians 4:

26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
\t“Rejoice, O barren,
\tYou who do not bear!
\tBreak forth and shout,
\tYou who are not in labor!
\tFor the desolate has many more children
\tThan she who has a husband.”

We are born of the "Jerusalem above ...which is the mother of us all..."

Who is wisdom, who is the One who speaks to man the things of Christ?

In Christ
Jeff