The End of England

With new laws now being introduced to allow homosexual and lesbian couples, the right to adopt children and then yesterday, with the Government now permitting Manchester to be the first major UK city to enjoy unlimited gaming rights, the End of England is fast upon us.

When a nation deviates from the will and purpose of God, all out apostasy and wickedness will only increase and increase.

The following article, although written some months ago, nonetheless is right up to date, when concerning just how bad the voice of Christianity is in the UK!

http://www.excatholicsforchrist.com/articles.php?PageURL=The%20End%20of%20England.htm

ask yourself this question: what western english speaking nation has opposed the State of Israel more vociferously than the UK?

and there your answer lays.

I am not sure what the question was but I strongly disagree with the answer. I am an Englishman but totally unpatriotic, so I write as a reader of history and of the Bible when I say this is a foolish and unscriptural attitude.

I have great sympathy for the Israelis although I don't identify that nation state with the people of the ancient promises. I admire their industry, tenacity and commitment to the citizens. I have walked through Auschwitz and Madenik and I ache for what has happened to this group of people, but to interpret history along the single line of 'how we treated the Jews' is foolish.

All nations and empires will come and go, except the one. Their coming and going is not determined by their foreign policy towards a middle eastern nation state.

Read the article and also Great Britain has fallen.

It brought tears to my eyes, it really did.

You said you feel pessimistic about the future of Britian. With good reason, I might add.

I expect to see God's judgment on this nation before I see revival.

I pray for revival, I know God can do it, I don't know if He will.

Why should He spare us when we have spat in His face? Metaphorically speaking, but in a sense we have.

I do hope God can forgive us.

The book of Daniel tells us about Daniel's prayers for himself and the nation of Israel when the 70 years of exile were almost over.

We've been exiled from God by our own doing, by deliberately palming off His word and writing our own laws.

Well, what you sow you reap, and when man sets up his own laws in defiance of God's laws, expect hell on earth.

I can see it.

Sorry I can't be more optimistic, but all I can say is pray.

God bless.

I have great sympathy for the Israelis although I don't identify that nation state with the people of the ancient promises.

I agree.

If I understand correctly, the promises made to Abraham were to him and his Seed. Seed being singular not plural (not to Seeds). The Seed is Christ.

Since Christians are in Christ, we are sons of God and Abraham's offspring and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3)

I get an uneasy feeling when I hear someone quote Genesis 12:3 speaking of the modern Jewish state:
"I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

This was spoken to Abraham and his Seed (Christ).

I am an Englishman but totally unpatriotic

hey, So would I be if I were English 8-)

Seriously though, I give a hearty amen to your post. righteousness will exalt any nation and sin be a reproach to the same. But the only one to stand eternaly is the the one of which it is said:

the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never by destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people: and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms: and itself shall stand for ever.

i read history too ... love it ... and i have to say i find Europe's the scariest after their supposed conversion to Christianity ... It's seems almost unfathomable to me how, alledgedly in the name/faith of Jesus Christ, whether Catholic and Protestant, so many horrible things were done, particularly by the ruling class, and social and business elite ... i mean how in the world, by the Book, could the Crusades ever have been justified, and then later particularly from Henry VIII's less than sanctified reasoning for converting to Protestantism, things seem to have went from bad to worse ... That's why i posted this thread ...

[b]CHRISTIANITY: Abused for Power, Personal Purpose & Prosperity ...[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14398&forum=35#111139

As a descendant of Ham i can share in bro Neil's obvious pain to what English (European & American) history may cause him ... Not saying this of bro Neil post, but i can tell you that before Christ i disdained ALL white people, the English in particular, the slave holding American founding fathers that came out of them, and all the subsequent European immigrants that came after, for black folks scarred legacy of slavery and societal ostracism ... But after Christ i eventually learned to put all that behind me, and dwell in and on a peace/freedom that surpasses all earthly understanding ... Our battle, tho still played out amongst visible men, is not one of flesh and blood, but of far more sinister powers behind the scenes, and i try to keep in mind that all the evil transpired is abled because of what Adam did in ceeding his authority to satan, and what God allows and/or institutes toward the culmination of His divine plan ...

i know for this Christian, one once blindly captive and highly reactive to a painful racial past, that scripture which says "Whom the Son has set free - is free indeed", sums it all up to where He's brought me now ... Now when the devil comes at me with one of his own, to bait me to past reactions of a painful past, Holy Ghost gives me the interlude of peace i need, so that He can reply thru me in a way pleasing to Christ ... i'm not saying i'm perfect everytime, but it's been a long time since i've had to repent for open expletives (tho i've sometimes had to for the ones i've thought) ...

i agree with bro Neil's assessment of "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you, I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you" as still being in tact ... Won't debate about it with anyone else who does'nt, or with anyone who believes in "Replacement Theology" ... Been there, done that, and it always seem to end where it started, no one convinced otherwise ... But i do want to comment on this statement by bro Neil ...

"Now my country America might be sliding towards apostasy,with our wealth and arrogance of empire but you guys over there are in deep trouble, empty neglected churches, deep dark covens of witches,wiccans, satanic worship, and I love the UK, deeply, but one can feel the evil in a place like the areas around Dartmoor, etc."

In listening to the history of REVIVAL, i believe it was bro Orr who said that if a nation misses two consecutive periods of REVIVAL it spins out into serious spiritual oblivion, implying what has happened to Britain ... i know in my praying to God i ask Him if that's what's wrong there, if He'd please not let this happen to America ... i know we're in serious trouble spiritually already, as well i know any saint excusing the obvious is definitely a part of the problem, but i refuse to believe that He'll not hear and answer those praying against the gourds ...

i've not been to Britain, but i know saints who have been there and they report the same thing, that there's something of a spiritual gloom hanging over it ... i've read statistics about its spiritual decline, and had the unpleasant (tho educational) experience of my company being acquired and ruled over by young British management for five years ... Some of the things, aside from their thinking we Yanks were the dumbest dolts on the planet, that stood out was their total disdain for American religiosity, my blatant beliefs in Christ being spoken in the workplace, and that we Yanks wouldn't be as blatantly dishonest in business practice as they required ...

Bro Ron's statement made me think of this ... Tho unsaved, they too were extremly unpatriotic, not casually as so many American youthful, but aggressively so ... They hated Blair, the Royals and anything old, especially people, but they were full of themselves as if they were the crown princes of Japheth - Englishmen - especially when it came to Football ... We got Football fanatics/drunks here too, but not like these dude ... i don't think i've ever met a group of guys so snide, pompous and proud in their ethnicity, and it really got them fighting mad when the guys blew them off as ridiculous ...

Now were owned by a Canadian company ...

i found this article from the same site to be equally as telling ...

[b]GREAT BRITAIN HAS FALLEN! [/b]
http://www.excatholicsforchrist.com/index.php?PageURL=decline.htm

[b]Pray for your country saints, where ever it is that God's placed you! ... We all know that just because we've fallen, don't mean that we can't get back up ... 1 John 1: 9 works for an individual, or a nation of individuals, repenting before Him ...[/b]

Blessings in Christ Jesus ... :-D

These self-termed "ancient promises" that you reference underline to me, that underneath it all, that all your great knowledge and all your great learning, is of the letter, and not the Spirit.

"Now my country America might be sliding towards apostasy,with our wealth and arrogance of empire but you guys over there are in deep trouble, empty neglected churches, deep dark covens of witches,wiccans, satanic worship, and I love the UK, deeply, but one can feel the evil in a place like the areas around Dartmoor, etc."

bro Ron

you said:

I have great sympathy for the Israelis although I don't identify that nation state with the people of the ancient promises. I admire their industry, tenacity and commitment to the citizens. I have walked through Auschwitz and Madenik and I ache for what has happened to this group of people, but to interpret history along the single line of 'how we treated the Jews' is foolish.

i agree with you to some degree, there is a difference between Israelis and Israelites, never in scripture are His chosen people ever called Israelis...and some of the Israelis will tell you "i'm not an Israelite" however i wonder if bro Bartle has a point in that mistreating Jews has consequences...maybe, maybe not.

All nations and empires will come and go, except the one. Their coming and going is not determined by their foreign policy towards a middle eastern nation state.

not to be trite but i find it interesting that every empire which did mistreat the israelites suffered destruction or some other cataclysm...Egypt, Assyria, Babylon and Rome...perhaps there is some connection between mistreating Jews in the sense of Israelites rather than Israelis and the death of these empires...

brethren
God in times past has always, even before utterly abasing His people Israel, said that the land they were on would be their forever. we can't ignore that part of it. i tend to agree however that the nation state of Israel isn't the people of the covenant but all the same that promise which God made and repeated still stands. Perhaps the promise is to the seed of Abraham, namely the Jews who come to Christ and are born of Him? Seed and seeds doesn't (to me anyway) denote one person vs a nation.

I get an uneasy feeling when I hear someone quote Genesis 12:3 speaking of the modern Jewish state:

me too, i fear that the saints don't know the difference between an Israelite and an Israeli...as a result we partake of the iniquity of Israel by aiding them as opposed to preaching the gospel because at this time, if any Jew dies without Christ, they end up in hell as does anyone else who dies without Christ.

philologos wrote:

These self-termed "ancient promises" that you reference underline to me, that underneath it all, that all your great knowledge and all your great learning, is of the letter, and not the Spirit.

Neil,
Are you the Neil Giuntoli (neilgin) who was removed from the site for your intemperate posts?

uh oh... :-?

bro Bartle

i wonder what you make of the prophecy in Zechariah (i believe, i will look it up later ind insert it here) in which if i remember right, God will gather up the nations and bring them against Jerusalem and they will take it, raping women and all the other barbarisms of the ancient conquerers like assyria. Perhaps this final destruction of Jerusalem will bring about the conversion of Israeli to Israelite because there is a difference. i certainly agree that the land belongs to Israel and that promise is forever, however it was made to the Israelites who kept God's commands and statutes, can we say the same of the present state of Israel? or should we expect another abasing of Jerusalem like in times past when Israel went whoring after the world and its idol?

some things to think about perhaps?

edit

the scripture is Zechariah chapt 14 and reads as follows:

[b]1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [/b]

evidently this has yet to happen because the word continues:

[b]3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; F44 for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. [/b]

this seems to be just before the return of our Lord judging from the mention of the splitting of the Mount of Olives. then again there could be a considerable amount of time between the sacking of Jerusalem by the nations, and the return of our Lord.

you know the answer to that question, and the only reason you ask it is an attempt to try to humiliate me.

not to be trite but i find it interesting that every empire which did mistreat the israelites suffered destruction or some other cataclysm...Egypt, Assyria, Babylon and Rome...perhaps there is some connection between mistreating Jews in the sense of Israelites rather than Israelis and the death of these empires...

It all comes down to whether or not you equate the Israeli nation state with 'the people of God'. I do not because I cannot interpret the scripture in that way. I am constantly urged to read Romans 9-11 by people who are frustrated with me and I would guess that I have read Romans as often as most of the people who advise me to do so. If I were to extract Romans 9-11 and treat it as a separate revelation I might well come to the conclusions that others have reached, but I read Romans 1-16 and I come to different conclusions. I hear a chorus running through the whole... there is no difference...

I never try to convince anyone that I am right in my interpretations and I never try to change anyone's mind. I simply say to so many who are utterly convinced 'I am not convinced'. I can choose not to say it and that would make life a little more peaceful, but if I am asked or someone shares something in a public community I will say what I think. Usually the form will be asking awkward questions rather than proposing a scheme of eschatology.

I still find it surprising to see the kind of anger that my 'inability to see' brings upon my head, but I am learning to live with it.

but when I point out the fact that the horrendous way Great Britain has treated the Jewish people in the past, expellingly them from the islands, Crusaders, institutionalized anti-semitism within the UK, and corelate this with the current empty state of the church in the UK, you term me "foolish" and refuse to even address your nations shameful past in both its dealings with the Jewish people and the Nation of Israel, which you blaspheme the Promises of God by terming it as a "middle-eastern nation state", you expect me to react to that with hugs and kisses?

I think your correlation is a false mapping of cause and effect. The sufferings suffered in various African nations during the last decades are horrendous and their nations are bruised beyond imagination but it has nothing to do with their foreign policy.

to me, your attitude regarding Israel is just a result of your nativist national prejuidices, rather than reading of Scripture, and the Promises and Covenants God made with the people of Israel, which are not only given then, but applicable now, and as a Jew saved by Grace, when I hear the foul apostate theory of "replacement theology", the conversation ends.

As regards 'replacement theology' I am often branded as such. My own description is 're-constitution theology'. The Old Covenant is certainly replaced by the New, and it was the Old Covenant which gave the people of Israel its tenancy agreement to the promised land.

The Root that I receive my nourishment from is Abrahamic rather than Judaic. It was Abraham in his pre-circumcision faith whose faith I follow.

The modern state of Israel is from God, by God and very much in God's Heart and Mind, and right now, it faces extreme danger from those who conspire to burn it "with fire" as they have promised, and it is the EU who stands with the enemies of Israel, if not by deed, then by their background machinations and sympathies.

I fully support Israel's right to national existence and her right to defend herself from those who wish her harm. I know, however, that there is no such thing as uninterpreted history and one man's history is another man's propaganda.

Due to the 'turn' this thread has taken, I went back and read the original post.

There is no mention in the article of the Jews, Israel, Abraham etc. No mention whatsoever.

So where did all of that come from?

I believe the poster was just showing a truth contained in the word of God.

That truth is found in Galatians 6v7, 'Do not be deceived, God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

I assumed the poster was concerned, to put it mildly, that the nation he lives in is headed for God's judgment rather than revival.

My assumption, that's not in the article.

So let's put personal disputes to one side and get back on track for each others edification.

How we need to be edified!

We are in the last days, and the eternal souls of men are at stake.

Let's pray for their salvation, for God's glory and honour.

God bless.

Is it worth kicking a dog whilst it is down?
Most people can express problems I am doing the best to preach the gospel on the streets .
Wouldn't it be better to pray for england more now that is in this state rather than critize, we are all living for a heavenly kingdom rather than an earthly one. England is dark but as the dark is getting darker the light is getting lighter!!!
Dom

I don’t know how much time Neil has spent in the UK but I do feel that this particular statement needs to be addressed for the sake of truth. I have lived here for 65 years and taken a lively interest in current affairs for most of that time. I have never seen or heard a single example of ‘institutionalised anti-semitism’. In fact, some might say the reverse was true. Gorbachov once complained that all Margaret Thatchers cabinet were Jews; it was an exageration but there were very many. I never heard a single adverse comment about this during the whole time of her premiership. Here is a comprehensive website called [url=http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/uk_jewish_faqs/index.htm]Something Jewish[/url] This should give you some idea of how well-integrated Jews are into UK life and culture. The latest census puts the Jewish population at somewhere under 300,000.. that is reckoned to be about one half of one percent of the UK population.

Or you might take a look at [url=http://www.bod.org.uk/]The Board of Deputies of British Jews[/url] Britain, despite having a Jewish community 20 times smaller than that of the United States, has 59 Jewish members of parliament, including 18 in the House of Commons and 41 in the House of Lords. The latter number includes seven barons whose seats in the house were hereditary until recently. However, the umbrella organization of British Jewry said that in fact, the number of Jews in the House of Lords is even higher, totaling at least 46. For comparison we have 2 Muslim members of parliament and 5 in the house of lords from a populations that calculates as 3% of the population ie 1.6 million. Crimes against Jews are decreasing annually.

Leading individuals in all walks of UK life are Jewish; in medicine, commerce, arts, law. Leading TV personalities, comedians, intellectuals are Jewish. On a lighter note it might be worth noting that the UK had a Jewish prime-minister before Israel did, twice! Disraeli between 1868 and 1874.

If this is institutionalised anti-semitism… what would happen if we all became advocates of semitism? I would go as far as to say my experience is that most UK folk admire and respect Israel and are instinctively more aligned to the Israeli point of view. However, the Brits hate to see the under-dog getting ‘slapped around’ and some of Israel’s responses to Palestinians have left some UK people troubled in their instinctive support.

This nation, in which I sojourn, needs the prayers of God’s people but it needs informed prayer and not the prejudices of hate. Please don’t go bending God’s ear about British institutionalised anti-semitism… He won’t know what you are talking about.

I too live in England and yes it is a difficult time for our nation.

However... despite the bleak situation we are in we are seeing God respond to our cries for our land. The darkness has caused us to draw to God's light, the spiritual depression has caused us to hold fast to God's promises, the political and spiritual compromise has driven us back to the Living Word.

There is however a new hope in the air and people are starting to see positive movement. In our area where churches have split multiple times and sheep stealing was a problem, there is now an unprecedented cooperation and many churches(60)are beginning to share the work of pastoring the city. They are beginning to find their 'voice' for their city.

But the real hope is among our young people.
They continually pray for God to take them, break them, and make them holy.
They cry to God to make them humble so he will get all the glory.
They refuse to compromise or live lives of compromise.
They fast and pray like people desperate for God.
They have only one word on their lips.
What is this word?
Revival.
They are out on the streets in the 'worst' neighbourhoods reaching out to the unlovely.
They have set up charities to do social justice and mercy ministries work.
They are militant and have no fear.
They are planting out churches to reach other young people.
They are snatching people out of prostitution, drug addiction, homelessness, and those who are on the brink of danger.
Our young people are infectious with their passion for God and we are all praying to catch what they have!!

So is England at the end of itself?
Maybe...

But... the end of man and the end of human endeavours is not a bad thing because it is the beginning of a mighty opportunity for God and those who seek after him.

So please, let's not make negative declarations over this nation and curse it.

Instead, let us continue our prayers for mercy. Let us pray that God will indeed continue to hear our prayers.

2 Chronicles 7:14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Let us pray this not only for England but of all nations we represent on SI.

Surely, nothing is too difficult from him!

Hello wallrepairer,

I don't know what part of the UK you live in but I have travelled all over this country preaching and I can share with the wider world, that there is no revival happening at present. If you think 60 churches coming together is something to get excited about, think again. If these churches are in the ecumenical movement (which is controlled by Rome) than you're being led away from the Truth and not nearer. When genuine revival is present, pubs, clubs, cinemas and other ungodly institutions shut down. If this is not happening in your town, or any town for that matter, than its not revival as we know it. (Check out George Whitefield’s accounts.) Until that happens, all you're seeing is cosmetic makeovers, and this is nothing to boast about.

I will also say that the UK is NOT anymore anti-Jewish than France or Germany (both have long supported the Palestinians over Israel.) True, the UK abstained in 48' at the UN, but so too did others, with some even voting against. However, as I say in my other article "Great Britain Has Fallen", the UK has declined since 1951, thanks primarily to the Druid Prime Minster, Winston Churchill and a weak Queen Elizabeth II.

I believe there is little hope for Western Europe as a whole.

deleted

bro Ron

Every empire travels the same path. They come, they flourish, they die. The Aztecs, the Maya, the Mongols, the Chinese, the Japanese, all these have come and gone without ever touching the 'Jews'. The nations you mention above did suffer the consequences of touching the people that was "the apple of God's eye" but if you read your Bible history you will know that they were raised up by God for specific purposes relating to that people and when they abused that purpose judgement fell on them.

this is true and i'm aware of that but i was talking specifically about those empires which did mistreat the Jews and God said He would and did abase them. indeed i'm aware that God raised them up for the purpose of punishing Israel and yet they somehow overstepped their bounds and had to be brought low.

It all comes down to whether or not you equate the Israeli nation state with 'the people of God'. I do not because I cannot interpret the scripture in that way. I am constantly urged to read Romans 9-11 by people who are frustrated with me and I would guess that I have read Romans as often as most of the people who advise me to do so. If I were to extract Romans 9-11 and treat it as a separate revelation I might well come to the conclusions that others have reached, but I read Romans 1-16 and I come to different conclusions. I hear a chorus running through the whole... there is no difference...

well i feel that the people there are Israelis (well most say they are Israelies rather than Israelites)not Israelites but the Israelites will come out from them. i agree in that there is no difference between Jew and gentile in Christ, but that to me refers to salvation and the requirements to get into heaven, neither people can enter His presence without first going by the cross. that being said, there are clearly some things which only the Jews can do on this side such as the rebuilding of the temple and the work which must be done there before Christ comes. The Revelation speaks of the sealing of the 144000 Jews which have a job to do which evidently the gentiles can't. so God still has a plan for Israel only which can't be fulfilled by gentiles although there is no difference between the 2. interesting how God works isn't it...

I never try to convince anyone that I am right in my interpretations and I never try to change anyone's mind. I simply say to so many who are utterly convinced 'I am not convinced'. I can choose not to say it and that would make life a little more peaceful, but if I am asked or someone shares something in a public community I will say what I think. Usually the form will be asking awkward questions rather than proposing a scheme of eschatology.

well we can agree to disagree on this and not throw rocks at one another which is always good :-P i'd like to hear some of your questions (if our Lord leads that is) since i brought up a more eschatological view of things.

Man i'm as thick as a Micky D's milk shake ... Bro B i had no you were the old Neilgin ... Either way i'm glad you're still in fellowship with us ...

Anyhow ...

[b]Enid wrote;
"So where did all of that come from?"[/b]

[i]Let me say first that i'm using Jew and gentile descriptively, because in Christ we're all supposed to be one ... [/i]

[b]It all started like this;[/b]

[b]1[/b] - JGB321 wrote;
"When a nation deviates from the will and purpose of God, all out apostasy and wickedness will only increase and increase."

[i]i believe JGB321 wrote this from a strictly Gentile/Christian point of view, with not even a thought of what bro Neil introduced as the reason, or a part of the reason of the spiritual demise of Britain ...[/i]

[b]2[/b] - Bro Bartle then expressed his belief;
"ask yourself this question: what western english speaking nation has opposed the State of Israel more vociferously than the UK? ... and there your answer lays."

[i]i believe what bro bartle expressed he believes as both a Jew, and a Christian ... i didn't initially post to say whether he was right or wrong, but in attempts to get him to check his motivation behind what he said ... If it is stated as pure belief due to factual history that's one thing, but if it's stated in even the least bit of angered thought/reaction to past and/or present hurt due to persecution of Jews then that ain't of Christ, because He said we're to forgive, and to treat with kindness those that dispitefully use us... That's why i tried to give a paralelled testimony of what Christ has freed me from as an Af/Am ... When i state history now i state it for history's sake especially in wonderment of how folk who claim Christ did such atrocious things, and/or discussion and explanation of why people act/react as we do, but not in attempts to beat anyone over the head with it, and certainly not in angered reaction to a painful past as i once would ...[/i]

Then bro Ron replied ...

[b]3[/b] - "I am not sure what the question was but I strongly disagree with the answer. I am an Englishman but totally unpatriotic, so I write as a reader of history and of the Bible when I say this is a foolish and unscriptural attitude."

[i]As soon as i saw [b]the ignite word "foolish"[/b] in bro Ron's reply i knew the fireworks were about to fly ... When i worked for GE i took a management course (Transactional Analysis) with a special teaching on "How To Deal With Persecution Complexed Employees" ... Under the heading were these three catagories ...

- Jews (religious/racial)
- Negroes (racial)
- Women (gender)

In the course it taught that every person is made up of three people ...

- Child (emotionally reactive)
- Parent (disciplinary reactive)
- Adult (logically reactive)

Generally what happens in a combative exchange is that it's primarily engaged in between child types, or is initiated, or egged on by a parent type to a child type ... Call someone "foolish" (or any other percieved slight word) and unless the recipient is aware of TA, or more importantly as a Christian controlled by Holy Spirit, you're gonna get an heated exchange ... i often think of TA when i'm posting on SI, this with trying to submit to Holy Spirit's warning of "self" often keeps me from reacting as a child or parent type, or pulling someone elses child type by my coming at them like a parent ... i'm not perfect at it, but i am aware of it and try to be adult ...[/i]

[b]4[/b] - Then Jaysaved made his comments ...

[b]5[/b] - [b]Then bro Neil came back at Jaysaved re: Replacement Theology, and called bro Ron "a pendantic Englishman"[/b] ... And the rest is "fur-flying", "back-biting", "finger-pointing" history ...

[b][i]Let's face it saints, we ALL still got lots of nasty spots, wrinkles and blemishes, from our pasts, still in our psyches ... Ungodly things we've picked up personally, family traits, ethnically, culturally, nationally, etc ... Some of us may have to be freed from a feeling of inferiority, some of us from a feeling of superiority, some of us from being reactive to persecutions past and present, some of us for liking to push the "ON" buttons of the persecution complexed ... Some of us may be actually blind to our motives ... Some of us may pretent we're not aware of what we do ... God help us ALL to be rid of any past filth that hinders us from going forward in Him ...[/i][/b]

[b]Phil.3
[13] ... but this one thing I do, [b]forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,[/b]
[14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

[b]1John.2[/b]
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: [b]because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.[/b]
[9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
[10] He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
[11] But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

[b]Eph.2[/b]
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] [b]Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,[/b] the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[14] [b]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,[/b] even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

[i]i know it may be hard ... i know we may not want to hear or accept it, but in Christ we're all supposed to be past any past things that separate us from being ONE in the Body ... These may be painful encounters, but they certainly bring to light some of the oughts we still have against one another ... In Christ we're not supposed to be separated as Jew and Gentile, black and white, or any other dastardly distiction satan uses to keep the world at each others throats ... We're supposed to be already seated in the heavenly vantage point of Christ, so that we can see such things as He sees them - from above it ALL ...

Holy Spirit can influence us all to adulthood (maturity) in Jesus if we'd only let Him ... All of us don't agree on a number of issues, perhaps some never to we stop seeing thru a glass darkly, but in the meanwhile if we come to such empasses, if we've given our viewpoint to the point of exhausting any further input, and/or we can't engage one another without spitting & hitting (child) or taking one another to the woodshed (parent), then perhaps the logically adult thing to do is to just STOP! ... i believe that's what i hear Holy Spirit saying to me about a number of topics, and it's what i intend to do ... [/i]

We may not have to agree with one another, but it pleases Christ that we love one another regardless ...

Blessings in our Lord Jesus Christ ... :-D

I want to address that charge of replacement theology. I simply stated that the promises made to Abraham were to him and his Seed. Galatians 3 tells us that the Seed is Christ.

Therefore the promises made to Abraham are to those who are in Christ (i.e., Christians.)

If this is replacement theology then it is Biblical.

have travelled all over this country preaching and I can share with the wider world, that there is no revival happening at present. If you think 60 churches coming together is something to get excited about, think again. If these churches are in the ecumenical movement (which is controlled by Rome) than you're being led away from the Truth and not nearer. When genuine revival is present, pubs, clubs, cinemas and other ungodly institutions shut down. If this is not happening in your town, or any town for that matter, than its not revival as we know it. (Check out George Whitefield’s accounts.) Until that happens, all you're seeing is cosmetic makeovers, and this is nothing to boast about.

You have made a number of grand assumptions about my previous posting.

1. I am NOT boasting as you say. I was sharing my current experiences which I believe is allowed on SI. What have any of us to boast about anyway?
2. I am NOT saying revival is happening. I have read about the revivals and know what true revival looks like. I said the young people have a heart cry for revival which is a much different thing.
3. The churches working together are not 'the ecumenical network controlled by Rome.' They are all like minded people mostly from the charismatic and evangelical churches and a few years ago working together looked impossible.

So, please ease up a little. Of course we are not experiencing a revival. But I don't believe we are as 'doomed' as some of the earlier posts said either. If we have even small signs of God still working in our lives then it's more than we had earlier...and I for one won't despise his encouragements...I won't join in and say that there is no hope for the people of this nation when God is paying time and attention, as a good Father, to make changes in lives both individually and corporately...however small these changes may look to you.

Of course everyone in every nation is longing for days of revival. But you cannot discredit God's work in the lives and hearts of individuals or groups of individuals just because it isn't a 'mass revival work'! It's like saying that nothing God is doing is worth anything or is valid except for his revival work!

ALL that God is and does is great. Even one drop of His mercy is more than we deserve and we ought to be a thankful people with anything He does in our lives whether He ever decides to send a revival to our nation or not!

bro Ron and Bro Bartle
i just had a thought, perhaps anti-semitism in britain is not so much institutionalized like say a Jim Crow-type set of laws which are designed to hold back Jews. what if this anti-semitism is not so much laws of the land but rather the attitudes and the hearts of people toward Jews? here in america slavery was abolished and rights between and among races equalized, however racism still occurs not because it is law, but that is the spirit of some of the people. could this be the case here?

in some white americans there is a disdain for black folk/other races/creeds which is not always apparent but nonetheless has an effect on how they deal with us. what if there is such a thing concerning Jews in England?

something to think about?

what if this anti-semitism is not so much laws of the land but rather the attitudes and the hearts of people toward Jews?

by bartle on 2007/2/1 22:13:01
There are some in the church, or on this forum who say that Israel is not ordained of God, nor blessed of God, that the modern state of Israel is just some creation of the UN, something that is man made, to which I say in the Lord, you are wrong.

You are in danger of making an interpretation the criteria for being a Christian.

I think when you say 'in the Lord' in this context you simply mean you believe it passionately. I do not say 'you are wrong', passionately, only that I am not convinced that you are right.

Britian not England alone is in a state of moral and spiritual decline. The state of this country should grieve any true brit the problem is that we look at the decline and shake our heads in sadness mutter a few words on our need for revival, we see a bit of fluff, noise and exitement and tell ourselves it's coming and pull the covers over our heads! Let me tell you we cant wait for the young people, or the old people at that, God is waiting for us to get on knees and pray in revival. Revival praying is costly and inconvenient to the flesh, we need to consider whether God has allowed these declines in our generation, the rot is deep and the pungent stench of sin is neusating, maybe God is saying i want you to see what i see and smell what i smell, i want my church to be disturbed out of her bed and onto her knees. There is a trend to cry out to God when the pressure of hositlity is hot and then to subside as soon as a knew fad comes along or a religous gimmick that promises a sensational answer. A new Hollywood christian film becomes the great revival hope, or a new program with clever apologetic arguments is adpoted in our churches to gently appeal to the wicked atheist. My prayer for Britian is that the antichristian hositility would bend us and cause us to cry out to God for mercy, like the hebrews living in slavery for four hundred years under Eygptian bondage, tolerating it for that long before they had the sense to start to call on God! i have always wondered why it took them so long to start getting serious about delieverance maybe they only longed for their privelages again acceptence in society, the honour they held under Josephs rule and to keep up with the Jones'. As long as the churches in Britian are focused on political, moral and social acceptance we will not see revival. God continue the decline until we have the sense to get serious about revival! as long as we kid ourselves that revival is coming, that revival is here we will never see it. The church of Christ was birthed to dominate society, to turn the world upside down, if the church wont seek to rise to its true position than God will allow the world to turn the church upside down.

Revolution34

Thank you for your concern about revival.

I'm gripped by these two scriptures in the Psalms.

Psalm 119v126, 'It is time for You to act, O Lord, for they have regarded Your law as void'.

Psalm 119v136, 'Rivers of water run down from my eyes, because men do not keep Your law'.

Maybe, God wants to see the rivers of waters run down from our eys, before He will act as we want to see Him do.

Also, we have to ask, what is revival?

I don't doubt if you were to ask 10 different people you would get 10 different answers.

Some, when speaking about revival, are referring to a spiritual awakening, in which masses of sinners get saved.

Others, to a dead church being revived in the things of God, and getting back to scripture.

Others will have yet another interpretation.

However, whatever your preference, we do need God's Holy Spirit to move.

Ask, seek, knock, Matt 7v7.

God bless.

by Revolution34 on 2007/2/2 11:34:22
The church of Christ was birthed to dominate society, to turn the world upside down

Has anyone seen the news today about england. If not check out Joel Rosenburgs blog very alarming

Vader,
Do you have the details for the blog, or what is the news?

Thanks.

And all I want to say is, that this - 'a witness' - is all some of us have to go on, with regard to the whole of our understanding, operation of our gifts, and in exercising faith towards obeying God's leadership of our lives.

I have heard people say they knew they were in the genuine tomb because of the witness of the Spirit. There are people on this site who turn their back on scriptural revelation in preference to the 'witness of the Spirit'; we have one regular contributor who takes this stance.

Usually when people say 'I have the witness of the Spirit' they mean 'I agree' and when they say 'I don't have the witness of the Spirit' they mean 'I don't agree'.

It does not matter how strong a persons witness is the bottom line is still... [color=0000ff]“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Is 8:20 NKJV)[/color]

One believer really only needs to know for themselves whether they are being obedient to what God has shown them - trusting Him to understand their confusion if they have any, and to lead them out of it, if it matters that they have intellectual clarity as well as practical direction.

[b]Bro Ron some things you said may be helpful to my getting a better understanding of history ... i know this is long, and i don't expect you, or anyone else to read or react to any/or all of it ... It's just comments on what i wonder ...[/b]

[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"Every empire travels the same path. They come, they flourish, they die. The Aztecs, the Maya, the Mongols, the Chinese, the Japanese, all these have come and gone without ever touching the 'Jews'. The nations you mention above did suffer the consequences of touching the people that was "the apple of God's eye" but if you read your Bible history you will know that they were raised up by God for specific purposes relating to that people and when they abused that purpose judgement fell on them."[/b]

--- Amen, but it's the so called Christian empires that historically, and sometimes presently, baffle me ... Heathen empires such as you mentioned, and European empires pre Christianity, i expect nothing of but the raging of heathens ... But after Christ, especially after the Protestant Reformation, now that's a different standard, and from viewing history (thru Christians eyes now) i see so much hypocrisy (tho with sprinklings of saints who stood up in protest) ... So ...

[color=CC0000]- Even if we don't make a correlation between any so called Christian peoples (nations) demise because of their mistreatment of the Jews, could we make it for their mistreatment of others, in the capacity that such Christian nations have done on their fellow man (in particular of other nationalities)? ...

- Could it be that when a people rise up, in nationhood and/or empire, claiming Christ and Christianity (like America now), when they subvert the purpose and pricipals of Christ to benefit of self, nation, empire, that God's judgement will fall on them? ...[/color]

[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"I still find it surprising to see the kind of anger that my 'inability to see' brings upon my head, but I am learning to live with it."[/b]

--- As my grandson would say, "i feel you on this" ...

[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"I am no more responsible for Britain's foreign policy than you are for America's slave history.'[/b]

--- Amen, bro Ron you're right, just like in America today white citizens are not responsible for our slave history ... But this question remains, "Are we still affected by such history, perhaps in sub-conscious ways we might not even be aware of" ... But we do agree that past British foreign policy, and the founding fathers of America foreign and domestic policies made them responsible? ... Blame and anger is not my agenda, but wonderment about ...

[color=CC0000]- How could such professedly Christian rulers, empires and people do such atrocities to others, Jews, Africans, colonized nations, in the name of Christ and Christianity? ...

- Was it that those folk back then were somehow more ignorant about the teachings of Christ, than we are today? ... [/color]

i know myself as a Christian, as i believe of you, wouldn't as a common man, or in any type position of power, be adapting Christ/Christianity to our own selfish earthly lusts (God forbid) ... We wouldn't be killing anyone in the name of Christ ... Or bearing false witness, especially to the murder of others ... Or be spreading and promoting death, destruction, and vile hatred at one person, or a group of folk, let alone enslaving others to our economic benefit ... And we certainly wouldn't go and exploit others for their resources, taking them by force ... They had to know it was wrong ... George Washington and Jefferson admitted that slavery was wrong and against God, but yet because of personal gain they persisted in it's practice ... They fled what they believed the tyranny of England, only to sacrifice Christ, and Christian principals to the building of new empire ... Yikes!

[color=CC0000]- Is this something that's historical, and subsequent leaders tho also claiming Christ and Christianity are born into, and therefore for sake of continued empire must make compromises to? ...[/color]

If so i thank God that He's not appointed me head over any nation, and i do pray hard for those He has, as i do for Pres. Bush ... i don't think i could live with having to juggle between faith and empire ---

[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"I think your correlation is a false mapping of cause and effect. The sufferings suffered in various African nations during the last decades are horrendous and their nations are bruised beyond imagination but it has nothing to do with their foreign policy."[/b]

--- Perhaps not with THEIR foreign policy ...

[color=CC0000]- But what about the foriegn policies of AGAIN, we so called Christian nations? ...

- What would have been their lot if they'd not been colonized in the first place, taken over for selfish exploit to empirical wealth, and then eventually dropped like hot potatoes when demanding their autonomy? ...

- Would the Hutu's and the Tutsi's been better off had not America and the Soviets played them against one another, and now two people who used to intermarry now kill each other? ...

- How is it possible, that we so called Christian Western nations have so much still, and they so little? ...[/color]

In America we're always hearing about doing things in "our national interest" ... That is if it don't affect our national security, to blazes with it ... But we're supposed to be a Christian nation, if not that then a nation supposedly filled with Christians ...

[color=CC0000]- So then shouldn't we also have "a Christ interest"? ...

- Shouldn't we be motivated like Him to give without expectation of getting something back? ...

- There was a time when Americans (per capita) were charitably more giving than we are now, what's happened? ...[/color]

[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"On the contrary I am and always have been pro-Israeli. I have never personally met a single instance of anti-semitism in my 65 years in the UK. In fact, as far as I know, I had never met a Jew until I was in my middle twenties. I don't deny that it exists but then I don't move in high circles."[/b]

--- Wow ... Never? ...

This made me think back to when i first encounterd Jews ... It was early in my life, like 5 or 6, because in black neighborhoods (pre 60's riots) Jews were the only ones who'd set up businesses there ... This was before manufacturing became a thing of the past in our inner cities, and the factories that employed us moved south ...

Anyhow i had good memories associated with them ... They'd give us candy free sometimes ... i'd notice that my dad and mom seemed to have a pretty good repoire with them in shopping ... They'd employ us ... They'd give credit, or let us pay on time, when nobody else would ... i never heard a bad word about them until after the 60's race riots, in which their businesses we're destroyed from our neighnorhoods never to return ... Now the old "hoods" look like war zones, and Korean's abound with "Stop & Go" shops that sell only Beer, Malt Liquor, cigarettes, and anything fried ...

After the riots such entities as the Black Panther Party came into play, radically reacting to racism against us by "the white man", but also spouting anti-semitic remarks about the Jew (promoted by the same "white-man" they were against) ... Satan is such a deciever ... But i really didn't get to first hand experience "anti-semetic", or "anti-Hamitic", sentiment until i left the insulation of my "hood" and went downtown to work amongst "whites" in my first architectural office ... Man was that an eye-opener ... Prior to this i used to think Jews were white, the whites i worked with soon made it very clear to me that they were'nt ... My Dad showed me from the scripture why ...

i still hear cracks about Jews ... One of the founders of my employment was Jewish (saved/died), and many of my fellow employees, especially the shop guys (blue collar), were always making some ugly remark ... In fact the young Brits that once ruled our company had some pretty nasty remarks about Jews (but then they had nothing good to say about anyone) ---

[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"Wasn't it an American ambassador who said 'we don't have friends, only interests'? I find it difficult to be 'temperate' about governments of any kind. I obey them but distrust them. My reading of history has shown me too clearly the hypocrisy that drives national destinies. I hold no brief to defend the EU. When they asked me if I wanted to join, I said 'no' but they didn't listen."[/b]

--- i've already touched on the "interest" thing, and my reading of history reveals the same as yours ... What's past is past, but as i said, i still wonder how such Christ professing people did what they did ...

But now to the present ... i won't speak on what Britian should or should not do, that's not my burden ... My burden is America, and what we as supposedly a nation made up of primarily Christians should and should'nt do in the name of Christ, and Christianity ...

[b][color=CC0000]i'm one who still believes that this is a government "for and by the people", so i address this soley to American saints ...[/color][/b]

[color=CC0000]- If America is supposedly so full of Christians, then why have we become an increasingly corrupt society? ...

- Could it be that since we're supposed to me a majority that much of the corruption is being participated in, or at least allowed by our silence giving consent? ...[/color]

i know what the power of a people in determined unison can do, in the Af/Am case it can amend the contitution to de-instututionalize racial bigotry (and the majority of that thrust came out of the black church) ... That's why i believe that if Christian's voted our Christian conscious in the best interest of the cause of Christ, and what's spiritually better for our fellow man, we'd not have all of the crap that has passed legislatively in the past 50 years ... It's like all of a sudden so called Christian Evangelicals have been awakened to this, the problem being that we still got so many other elements of Christianity pulling in different directions in pursuit of more personal earthly payoffs we can't get a more unified consensus ...

One of the things that's been beneficial to my being black in America is that to not have initially been included, it made me a spectator of how American society acts, and reacts ... Americans, (many saints included unfortunately), as long as we feel our individual ability to pursue our own life, liberty and happiness is unobstructed, as long as the economy is doing ok, jobs are plentiful, stock market's rising, gas is cheap, credit is available, we can have the next biggest and best things, crime and people of low socio-economic level stay in their designated areas, etc., we could care less about anything else ... We don't care about war, unless it isn't good for the economy or there's a draft ... We don't care about other nations, or what they think of us, unless it effects our economy ... We don't really care about our own poor anymore, let alone the poor in all the rest of the world ... Even our major religious denoms, churches, have been bitten by the bug of greedy self agrandizing empire building ...

[b]THE ONLY TIME AMERICANS SIT UP AND TAKE NOTICE IS WHEN SOMEONE MOVES OUR COLLECTIVE CHEESE ... THEN YOU'LL GOT A MOVEMENT! [/b]

All this to say, unlike your experience bro Ron, in America, i believe if any major segment of our population gets to a point of where it's collectively had enough, government will listen, and react ... Although now i think if our government ever gets to a point of where it doesn't react to the will of the people, especially in anything that has to do with loss in economy, there will be blood running in the streets ---

[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"However where Jews identify themselves with Zionism there will be the typical caution of the Brits. Islam and Zionism are both territorial ideologies; this will certainly make Brits uncomfortable. Jews, racially and religiously are not necessarily territorial."[/b]

--- All i can say is i live in a highly concentrated Jewish suburb, and i can count on one hand the Jews i've met who aren't pro Israel ... If that makes them Zionist, then they're territorial ... i read that this Zionist identification is a reason for the new ressurgence of Anti-Semitism in the world, and also anti-Americanism because we're so closely identified with them ... As a Christian, and an American, i'm glad to be a part of such a union ... God help the Jew, their damned by the world if they do or don't ... i truly feel that anything i'd ever have to negatively deal with being Hamitic, is far less sinister than what a Jew has to deal with ... i suppose to have God hang a sign around your neck as His chosen, is a sure way to have others to want to put their foot on your neck ... For the most part i get along fine with Jews, especially the old ones ... And when i see them (lots of yarmulkes in my area) i'm always reminded of our mutual spiritual history ---

[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"The church of Jesus Christ was birthed to be trodden on by society and by its testimony to become an overwhelming minority; world domination was never part of its commission."[/b]

--- See, now what you said here is in unison with a way of thinking that i try my best to avoid ... i don't like questioning peoples salvation, i think to myself maybe it is possible to be saved and be that self deluded at the same time ... Then i think, nahhh, no way ... You know as bad as i think the crusades were, they were done under the Church of Rome and so i can comprehend why such a spiritually corrupt undertaking happened ... But i'm beginning to really wonder about the salvation of so many Protestants, especially those in any elitist positions, who historically engaged in such anti-Christian endeavors ...

[i][color=0000CC]Maybe i'm answering my own questions here ... Maybe Ravenhill was right, maybe only 5% of all professing Christians are truly saved, that "overwhelming minority" as you put it ... It certainly would account for how past, and present, professed Christians could/can do such things that are totally against Christ, Christianity and the Bible ... [/color][/i]

Blessings in Christ Jesus ---

Bro Bartle you wrote;
"God does not go BACK on His covenants, He Himself said they are "irrevocable"

--- See this is what i believe too, that's why i'm pro Israel, and by association then Pro-Zionist ...

One of the things that wipes me out is hoe everytime God steps into human existence with a promise, blessing or curse, it alters the course of human history, in ways we can't see until after it happens ...

[b]Gen. 3[/b] - WHAM! ... History altered ...

[b]Gen. 6[/b] - WHAM! ... History altered ...

[b]Gen. 9[/b] - WHAM! ... History altered ...

[24] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
[25] And he said (i believe under God's authority and inspiration), Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
[26] And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
[27] God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Someone said on a thread awhile back that something like this happened so long ago that it can't still be having an effect of us today ... i don't believe that, and in attempts of exploring it posted these threads ...

[b]Why are the Jews (Shem) Hated by so many Europeans & Russians (Japheth)? ...[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=11893&forum=48&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

i think Ham's run in with his dad's curse produced bad feelings between Ham's and Shem's line, to the point that by the time it got to Nimrod (Ham's grandson) he was the first in attepts of "making a Shem (name) of their own, and he is stated to be first in oppostion to God ... i also find it suspect that Ham's descendants wound up on a continent cut off on three sides by water from the rest of the then known world, all to themselves, later to be deemed the "dregs of mankind" by the rest of humanity, to the point that they'd become just another commodity, from their resources rich land ...

i also think that Japheth's blessing of enlargement and prospering is in some ways also a curse because it seems that the clash between what Shem's God then, and God's Christ now requires, and what enlargement and prospering requires, puts them at odds within themselves spiritually ... Which i questioned in this thread ...

[b]CHRISTIANITY: Abused for Power, Personal Purpose & Prosperity ...[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14398&forum=35#111139

it never ceases to amaze me that it was only the sons of Japheth (like Marco Polo) who went first hiking all over the known world in search of wealth, and then later how they seemed to be the only people to get in little wooden ships, and sail across unknown waters that they believed if you reached the edge of you'd fall off - yet they went any way ... What's the phrase that you hear in so many old English novel, "I'm off to seek my fortune", while it seems that folk in other far reaches of the globe, not being ocean venturing travellers, sat waiting to be discovered, and colonized, and sometimes made exstinct ...

Bro Bartle you wrote;
"and let me, as a Jew, saved by Jesus Messiah say this in the leading of the Holy Spirit, if there has been one thing, that has kept my people, the Jews from Messiah thruout the centuries from the time of His Crucifixtion, it has been, the church, lower case "c" church and it's believers who have persecuted and murdered Jews in the name of christ, Crusaders sporting crosses on their armor murdering Jews, forced conversions, inquisitions, burning synagogues, nazi's who said you killed our god, now we're going to kill you. That's the truth, face it."

--- [color=CC0000]Bro Neil, i sure hope you won't be mad at me[/color] but to me the reasons you gave here are again outward reasons, the visible, tangible things we can grasp, and blame, and not the invisible ones ... i certainly think satan was/is behind such atrocities, but the real reason why i believe the majority of Jews do not accept Christ has more do to Romans 11 than these subsequent histories, and that you and i are to be more focused in our shared, neither Jew nor gentile, brotherhood of Paul's speaking here ...

[b]Eph.1:[/b]
[2] Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as [b]he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ...[/b]

i can understand how you may not be able to shed what has, and still is happening to unsaved Jews today, as i can with my fellow unsaved Af/Am's ... There's more attached in your case, than in my own ...
But Rom. 11 talks about the distinction between the Olive Tree (Israel), and we that are grafted in (Church) ... Bro Neil [color=CC0000]i think you're identifying more with the tree (Israel), and not the graft (the Church which you are a part of)[/color] ... i'll say no more on this, other than i love you in our Lord, and pray He make plain to you what needs to be made plain ...

Finally on the "who killed Christ issue" ... i've heard some say the Jews did, the Romans did, and that all we sinners did, but i think that's all wrong ... i think God the Father, on our behalf, killed Christ because the scripture says ...

[b]John 3[/b]:[16] [b]For God so loved the world, that he gave[/b] his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[b]John 19[/b]:[10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
[11] Jesus answered, [b]Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above:[/b] therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Those that delivered may have had greater sin, but not the power to kill Christ ...

[b]1 Pet. 1[/b]:[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[20] Who verily was [b]foreordained before the foundation of the world[/b], but was manifest in these last times for you,

[b]Rev.13[/b]:[8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [b]slain from the foundation of the world.[/b]

No man has the power to slay anyone before they were even created ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus ...