Should Christians Watch Hollywood Movies?

Eph. 5 has a list of sins and then it tells Christians not to be partakers in them. I was just wondering what you all thought of this chapter in relation to Hollywood movies? Should we even be watching the so called "clean" ones, because even just watching a Disney movies is supporting an industry that is full of filth?

Jordan

Should be a movie by movie decision. If a movie contains words or images that are not edifying to a Christian then let that Christian not watch that movie.

There are movies that do not contain inappropriate scenes and dialog (albeit very few) that are fine to enjoy.

Let each person listen to the Holy Spirit.

well i see it this way and as i understand Satan's plans to destroy us he has entertainment....among other things

if you like porn and other xxx sort of entertainment he got that for you...

if you are not into that kind of entertainment he go some "cleaner" entertainment,things that draw you from the bible and from your knees
they all do the same thing....., some is more "sinful" to us then other He even has religious entertainment but the result is you have less time to do things that really matter in the light of eternity

like spend time whit our savior,

and frankly who want to see a movie when we can behold his Glory?

Just enjoy Adam Clarkes comment on this passage!!

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

For ye were sometimes (ποτε, formerly) darkness - While ye lived in darkness, ye lived in these crimes.
But now are ye light in the Lord - When ye were in heathenish darkness ye served divers lusts and pleasures, but now ye have the light - the wisdom and teaching which come from God; therefore walk as children of the light - let the world see that ye are not slaves to the flesh, but free, willing, rational servants of the Most High; not brutish followers of devil gods.

Adam Clarke

Krispy:

I'm not picking on you but you mentioned you will see clean movies and will go to see the new Rocky movie. Do you consider this to be a clean movie based on the information about the movies content below stated by screenit.com.

I'm not trying to pick a debate from you, I'm just curious as to what you think of it and maybe cause us all to consider what is clean for us versus clean before the Lord.

Mike

***Edited Post***

Sorry, poor judgement on my part.

I'm sorry. I just realized that some may find it inappropriate to even have posted the contents of the Rocky movie on my previous post.

If the moderators feel that is the case then I ask that they please edit or delete my post and accept my apology.

Mike

[KrispyKrittr wrote:
"I understand what you're saying here... but let me ask this... should you be buying milk from a store that also sells beer and smokes? Should you be driving a car that burns gas that helps support terrorists? Should you pay for an internet service that allows porn to be readily available to you and your family? Should you pay taxes to a government that is funding Planned Parenthood?

If we use the reasoning you used, we'd be sinning every single day by just buying milk."

Milk and gas you need to survive, but amsuement you don't. So, I will go to Wal-mart and by my milk even if they do sell porn and I will get gas that is bought from Muslims, but entertainment I wll not do. What I'm saying is that for a non-essential movie I will not support an industry that supports homosexuality, adultrey, fornication, swearing, and the list goes on, but I will buy food from a store that sells porn because you need it to live.

Jordan

its not that I'm saying don't ever watch TV, or don't ever watch movies, it is like you are saying we have to be careful, and i see how reasoning like this can get taken in a wrong way, i just want people to be "watchful" over what they look at,

for example i have family members in my own house who have no problem watching Hollywood movies, but i cant, i feel thats not for me, and as for the milk thing, i understand what you are saying.... but mmmmm i still think we more sort of making a direct choice concerning what we watch on film and so on, my opinion on this is that i don't believe its healthy spiritually for a Christian to be watching the "majority" of what is out there, thats my opinion, there are movies that are good, there are TV programs that are good,

I'm thinking of this story long time ago.... don't remember it exactly but it sort of goes like this...

a woman raises her two sons, she was a good Christian woman, she tried to raise them as Christians, but when they got older the boarded a ship and went away looking for adventure, she couldn't see what went wrong until she realized that in their dinning room on one wall was a big painting of a ship out to sea, and the two young boys had seen that painting growing up and they followed that what they had been watching,

i believe it is from one of R A Torrey's books?
but I'm just saying most of the entertainment will draw you away from Christ, i cant speak for anyone else but as for me that is a fact, i almost never watch TV or so, the things i watch is some cartoons whit my kids, i have a hard time whit some of the cartoons to!

but we need god judgments on this, its for everyone to decide for themselfs....

but say what you want, if you spent every minute we have watched tv....instead we had been on our knees , i bet our spiritual walk had been just a little bit better.... or what do you think?

EDIT Duplicate post

Let each person listen to the Holy Spirit.

The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he engages in that activity, because the activity is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

EDIT Duplicate post

mmmmm maybe we shouldent buy the NIV ? :P

Krispy:

I agree that the word bum is not profane but there were dozens of other words and phrases that were profane. But I do agree about the word bum is not a concern.

Back to the main purpose of the thread. I personally don't go to movie theaters but I do allow my family to watch certain movies, mainly old balck and white movies, but still hollywood I guess. Most of what we get is from the library.

I will not condemn a person who goes to the theater to see a movie but it should be a clean movie like The Nativity Story that Krispy mentioned. I just don't want to be in the theater environment so I wait for the DVD to come out. I feel that the theater environment will only appeal more and more to the flesh so I avoid it.

Lastly as to what JaySaved posted:

"Let each person listen to the Holy Spirit.

The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he engages in that activity, because the activity is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

My question and response to that is, does that mean if a man is convinced it is ok for him to look at a victoria secret catalog it is ok as long as he has no doubt? I certaintly don't think so. So anyone can go on sinning and just think it is ok because they don't have any doubt about it? Maybe they don't have doubt because they are deceived or hardened.

Mike

No I don't have an NIV Bible, but I do have a couple books from Zondervan. My point is Hollywood is entertainment, pure and simple. I know that it is impossible to be totally untouched in this manner, but when it comes down to paying money for a movie produced by an ungodly industry, I just won't do that. We are in the world but not of it, so I'm not going to watch Hollywood amusement.

With your reasoning, why not go to a bar and just by a soda and something to eat, but not get any beer?

Read Intoxicated with Babylon by Steve Gallagher to see more of were I'm coming from.

Jordan

Christians should treat the world of entertainment like a minefield. Television too, for that matter.

I watch almost zero modern movies (I'm looking forward to "Miss Potter", however) . . . but I really love old black & whites. There's just an overall respectfulness and sense of propriety in most of them. Bad is bad and almost always gets its just reward.

Good movies from the 30's and 40's still had the quality of [i]understatement[/i]. If a character was involved in sin, it was conveyed very subtly, instead of dragging the viewer through every detail of it. I hate today's barrage of words, images, etc. intended to shock viewers.

i like that quote from ravenhill i believe it was.

-How can they bring down strongholds, they cant even turn their TV of!

Wow, that's a great quote! Were did you find that?

Jordan

If you support me, you support God. I am a follower of Jesus, and all I do is for his glory.

By watching a movie (supporting the actors) you support their God(s)

Travolta, Cruise, and many others support Scientology. Many of the Hollywood crowd say they are not religious, or they don’t support anything, but by not following God they are his enemies, “clean” movie or not.

I also see a problem of numbers. I have heard many say, “it only has a few bad words in it” To me one is too many, but I’m a fanatic because I also think one rape scene is too many…sin is sin.

What if no bad words and no adult content, but its comedy is built on deception?

There are many things to consider.

God Bless

TJ

PS

Intoxicated with Babylon by Steve Gallagher is a great book !!!

Cons:

I don't know if anyone has already quoted this, but I think this quote had a huge impact on my Christian life.

'Entertainment is a substitution for true Joy.' -L.R.

Pros:

I personally enjoy classics like Ben Hur, Cassablanca, It's A Wonderful Life etc. Even if these movies aren't overtly Christian, some of them have great and encouraging stories.

There are movies like 'To End All Wars,' 'End of the Spear,' 'The Chronicles of Narnia,' 'The Lord of the Rings.' etc. That are made with Hollywood experienced people for Christians, and non-Christians... I think if we encouraged more movies like these we'd be all the better for it.

Another thought that comes to mind is the testimony of CS Lewis. He spent his childhood reading secular novels, some good, some not... and he became one of the greatest Christian minds of his generation.

I think it is entirely wrong to avoid entertainment or force others to. We need to find the place where Jesus wants us to be.

I was at lunch today and heard some women (I work for a Christian ministry) talking about 'Little Miss Sunshine,' 'Bruce Almighty,' and '40 Year Old Virgin.' And I was just thinking to myself -What the heck!

There's a real problem, but the solution isn't to go into a cave either... even Leonard Ravenhill admitted that he watched documentaries on TV occasionally. However I think he would have cried at the thought of women working for a Christian ministry going to watch a movie like '40 year old virgin.'

"The End of the Spears" had a gay man as the lead actor. "The Lord of the Rings" had a wizard as a good guy. I believe that Hollywood putting out "Christian" movies is like God's enemies offering to help build the walls in the OT.

tjservant wrote:
If you support me, you support God. I am a follower of Jesus, and all I do is for his glory.

By watching a movie (supporting the actors) you support their God(s)

Travolta, Cruise, and many others support Scientology. Many of the Hollywood crowd say they are not religious, or they don’t support anything, but by not following God they are his enemies, “clean” movie or not.

I also see a problem of numbers. I have heard many say, “it only has a few bad words in it” To me one is too many, but I’m a fanatic because I also think one rape scene is too many…sin is sin.

What if no bad words and no adult content, but its comedy is built on deception?

There are many things to consider.

God Bless

TJ

PS

Intoxicated with Babylon by Steve Gallagher is a great book !!!

Amen! Well said TJ.

Personally; don't watch movies, rarely turn on the t.v. My children watch vegetales so I sometimes watch them. Have been convicted of going to restraunts that serve alcohol so I no longer go there either, since I have been trapped in that vice for a time and seen the destruction. Without t.v. and movies my relationship with the Lord is more profound. Keith Green said in one of his video sermons that at the time of Finney our vocabulary was in excess of four thousand words and today do to entertainment it has been cut in half if not lower. And we think were getting smarter. Leonard Ravenhill also said something like "we can sit two hours in a stinking movie house but can't spend an hour alone with God" Where are our priorities, when we almost have to preview the previews!?!?

Did you Know these things about Hollywood?

Holly wood is the kind of wood that witches make their staffs/wands out of. Only the top ranking ones get to have a holly wood staff/wand. That is how they control the world almost like they are hypnotising the people with their Holly Wood Staff, Or movies. In the satanic movie Harry Potter, Harry has a HOLLY WOOD wand, showing his status. I havnt watched it but i do know that part. Now the Devil uses the HOLLYWOOD the same way a witch will use their HOLLYWOOD wand.

Getting my point? Do a search and see for yourself.

Did anyone listen to Ray Comfort’s sermon “what Hollywood believes”? He names each actor and states what that actor believes. How blasphemous! To be honest I loved movies until recently actually until I heard Ray’s sermon! Then I hate myself for admiring this men and women!When the Holy Spirit exposed their inner spirit-their real being I hate myself for interacting myself in anyway with them “ not only they do that but approves those who do that kind of thing” says Romans 2 so why should I in any way admire or approve them tacitly in my heart? What do I have with Hollywood and what do God my father have in Hollywood? Then I said to myself why do I in anyway interact myself with this people? So I really really prayed. In my home there were channels that bring movies 24 hours, me and my children were on that all the time then in answer to my prayer all the movie channels blacked out and only 2 news channels remained! This seems weird but for me it is a miracle- God sweeping out this trash from my home! It has a deep meaning for me and me and my husband didn’t go to repair those channels if the TV is open in our home it is going to be only CNN-I know this too has to be limited. This is my personal testimony if it helps.

Your sis. Mek.

HomeFree89 wrote:
Wow, that's a great quote! Were did you find that?

Jordan

i dont remember ,... its from one of his sermons here on SI...so if you go thru them one at the time :).... you will find it...

and since Ravenhill beats any hollywood movie any day of the week :), wouldent that be something...instead of watching TV we would only watch things that would make us grow spiritualy and make us more holy, more surrendered to God,

also this verses are good to meditate on every time you turn on your tv

Psa 101:2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when will You come to me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.
Psa 101:3 I will set no wicked thing before my eyes. I have hated the work of those who turn aside; it shall not hold on to me.

But should we go see a movie that has a pregnant sixteen-yeard old playing Mary? In so doing we show our support of sin. Does the end justify the means?

Should Hollywood Watch Christians Movies? :-)

after a long windless hot drift thru many weeks, the sails suddenly fill with air, and you hear the captain Jack Aubrey, played by Russell Crowe say, "God be praised".

Though I haven't seen this movie, I think I'd be sick to my stomach if I heard Russel Crowe say "Praise the Lord." I'm of the conviction that if you don't live it, I really don't want to hear you say it. Especially in a fake movie, with a fake backdrop, fake wind, fake piety. I don't want to hear Oprah talk about God, I don't want to see John Wayne dressed up as a repentant centurion, and I certainly don't want to hear a boastful, violent philanderer say, "Praise the Lord." To hear God's Name coming from a man or woman who doesn't live it - who outright practices iniguity and lawlesness - well, this is just rotten, vile, disgusting, putrid death. Actors, actors, actors. It's going to be a terrible day when all their "masks" come off. Lot's of Christian actors, too - and I don't just mean the guys on TV and low-budget movies. [i]Real[/i] Christian actors, the brilliant stage-performers who change like chamelions once they return to their dressing rooms. But how can this be? In Christ there are no actors; only [i]real[/i] men and women, as real as you can get. I really don't think two words could have more of an opposite meaning than the words "actor" and "Christian".

(edit) Hey Bart - this isn't an attack on you. Man, why is it I always think I need to lay down a disclaimer with you! :-P

Big Bart, I know you condsider yourself an actor - a "working" actor - and I am not indicting you; I am just making a generalization on the term "actor." Russel Crowe may not perturb you by saying what he says, but that thing you mentioned just rubbed me wrong.

Then I said to myself why do I in anyway interact myself with this people?

Useful expression of televsion here Medki.

Indeed, why would I let my children interact with these people? You know these 'children's' channels are insidious. The marketers apply themselves diligently to their profession by presenting these whosesome 'worldy innocent' fun loving children for your own children to relate to and to grow familiar with. These phosphorus friends seem harmless enough as they go from one silly caper to the next...except they are spiritual vacuums having no expression of God on them or their familes. Then after a few years these little television children grow up and become more worldly and less innocent...making sensual or materialistic videos and singing rebellous idealogies...all the while pulling our children along year by year closer to the world...line by line, precept upon precept.

Worldy entertainment dumbs the spiritual man down...makes him dull of hearing, removing the appetitite for the eternal. As a commercial artist, this is something I wrestle with constantly.

Bless you saints,

MC

Last movie I watched was "Luther"... came out in '03 I think, starring Joseph Fiennes. I liked it; although, I'm not an expert on the life of Luther.

Russell Crowe said 'God be praised'?

No wonder he won an Oscar!

Krispy,

All I was asking is what people thought about Hollywood movies in light of Eph. 5. Asking for them to view what they watch in light of Scripture. I'm not looking for dirt on everyone, but just trying to show that Hollywood is corrupt to the core. Even the so called "Christian" movies are corrupted by the world.

The thing about the pregnant girl playing Mary was on WND. It was on in December, so you might be able to find if you look there. When I mentioned that I was trying to make a point that even the in the "Christian" movies there is compromise. Why compromise for entertainment, was the main question of the post.

Jordan

Should we even be watching the so called "clean" ones...

Hi Jordan, my answer is simple - no.

Personally I regret for almost every so called "neutral" movie that I have seen in my past years as a christian. These "neutral" movies can be even more dangerous than those that all of us admit that are evil. So much, so much garbage is flowing into our minds. Believe me, it will reflect on us sooner or later. We don't need that, we don't need it. We don't need more corruption into our minds, it was enough! Let's say stop, and let's say "we are finished with the world".

Phi 4:8 [b]Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.[/b]

Oh for more clean and godly thoughts and [b]eyes[/b]!

"If I could push the door of heaven and you could peep through it for 5 min. you will never backslide! You'd change your lifestyle, you'd change your conversation style, you'd change your eating style, you'd change everything! Listen, you and I are supposed to be eternity conscious; [b]the world out there is blind and dumb and deaf and it's crazy!" [/b] - LR

I like very much the example with the glass, I will quote another brother from this forum:

"I was ministering to my family, and I asked one of my sons to go get a "clear glass" and fill it almost full of water. When he returned, I asked him to take a small drink of it which he readily did.
Then I went outside and got just a pinch of dirt. I came back in and dropped the pinch of dirt in the glass of water. It quickly settled on the bottom of the glass. The water still looked really clear. I asked him to take another drink. He of course balked quickly. I asked him why wouldn't he take a drink. "Because you put dirt in it". I challenged him that it was only a very small amount of dirt. Yet he insisted that the small amount of dirt rendered the entirety of the water unfit to drink.
I then asked him was this not like going to a movie with only a "few cuss words" or only "one sex scene"? You see, it does not take but one small sin to render our vessel impure. Purity should always be our goal. God will clean us up when we repent. But we have a responsibility to keep guard over our vessel and keep the dirt out. Had my son placed his hand over the opening of the glass, I could not have put the dirt in.
Take note that the small pinch of dirt did not displace the water inside. The water was still there and 100% water. But it was no longer useful for quenching a thirst.
It's the same thing with the living water, beloved. It only takes a small sin or disobedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit to render us ineffective in our witness. Oh you may get a desperately thristy person to drink. But you will generally be refused and ignored.
[b]Oh God how I long to be holy and pure. Help me not to confuse the evil thoughts and temptations of my already crucified flesh with the joy of knowing that the blood of Jesus has made me Holy and Pure. Help me oh God to guard my holiness imputed to me. Help me to value it as a great treasure. Give me the heart and mind of Jesus, that would even suffer death rather than mar the honor of Your glory oh Lord. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen and amen."[/b]

Amen!

Krispy,

Thanks for your response. If you feel that's how the Lord is leading you, that's great!

I pray I didn't offend you in any way. If I did please forgive me.

In Christ, Jordan

i personally don't watch movies that often, but i know God can use movies, my friend got saved after he watched the left behind movies.... he was raised in a Christian home, i don't want to talk doctrines in that movie, i don't agree whit it all, but there is unsaved ungodly actors in that movie... but God used that movie to awaken my friend.... he was convicted and two days later he was saved.... if i was to recommend anything i would say don't watch movies, instead go pray or read the scriptures... but i know for a fact God can use movies.. and if it wasn't for the grace of God i still would be watching the filthiest kinds of movies ever made as i used to! but praise GOD! he cleansed me, gave me a new mind new heard and new desernment... there are wonderful movies.... there are awful movies Christians shouldn't even talk about...but we need to choose wisely...will this movie build up my walk whit Christ? will this movie give me more love?more compassion for the lost? a better prayer life? make me a better witness for Christ in front of my children and family? if it dont...then don't watch...if it does watch...we often make this issue harder then it is...

The question you posted is very simple.... "Should Christians Watch Hollywood Movies?" I would have to so No... Christians SHOULD read their Bible and pray. It's more of a questions to ask, DO Christians Watch Hollywood Movies? The answer here would have to be yes. We do, and we all have in the past. It's next to impossible to live in this culture and not in some way or another be influenced by the entertainment industry. Is the entertainment industry in and of itself bad? No. Does the entertainment industry produce a bad product? Yes. You see where I'm going? We can all tend to get a little legalistic over things like this. As Christians we grow in holiness. That means it's progressive. Where I am in my Christian life is different than where you are.

This subject is near and dear to my heart because I just so happen to work for Hollywood. I design posters for movies. I will share a bit of my story below and let you see how it is that God has been working this out in my life...

Growing up in rural America, and being young during a time when lots of entertainment was made available to kids, I caught the entertainment bug early. I loved Hollywood. I became obsessed with films and ended up making them myself in my spare time. I even ended up at art school studying film making. Upon graduation I moved to Hollywood and started working my way up in the whole system, with the ultimate goal of becoming a big shot director. But then, right as I was starting to make connections, something happened. I repented and put my trust in the Savior. My prayers went from, "Oh God make me successful so I can do what I want" to "Oh God strip me of this worldliness". See, I had been a false convert my whole life, and through God's grace I got truly saved. Once that happened, the natural thing the Bible tells us will happen, started happening. I was born again of the spirit. The major thing that I always loved, Hollywood, started getting less prominence in my life.

Here I am now, almost 4 years later... I still work for Hollywood, but I'm on my way out. My wife and I are moving away from this business in July, not because it's bad in and of itself, but because God has changed my heart and mind... I no longer desire to be part of it. It lost it's appeal, and I think that's what happens. When we truly repent and put our trust in the Savior, these issues of should we do this or should we do that get resolved because we have the spirit in us, guiding us to holiness.

Do I still watch Hollywood movies? Yes I do, but far fewer this year than last. Prayer and Bible reading have become more and more important. Praise God for his grace! Praise God for changing a sinner like me!

"It's next to impossible to live in this culture and not in some way or another be influenced by the entertainment industry."

You're totally right, but looking through the lens of Eph. 5 should Christians continue watching them?

Steve Gallagher ask Christians if they should even be watching clean stuff, because if God's not in it the Spirit of the World is (Cosmos) in the book Intoxicated by Babylon.

In Christ, Jordan

Neil,

I think the problem is nobody here is ever allowed to disagree with you or post their own convictions in opposition to yours. I've seen it again and again and again here. There is a pattern. I realise nothing I can say at this time will help this situation. I don't think my post was abrasive and filled with sarcasm like your post to me was. Does a disagreement and challenge really deserve that kind of treatment to a brother in return? You've made my post sound as though I profaned your family or did something extremely injurious at a personal level. It's gotten to the point where I can no longer post [i]anything[/i] that challenges or opposes a view you have put forth. And I've seen you cut into others as well.

This is no good. There are issues, Neil. I am sorry I posted here. And I am sorry my post was the final "straw" that broke your back to cause you to stop fellowshipping here.

Paul

You'll never be able to speak against sin if you're entertained by it. --John Muncee

God Bless

TJ

I have had it with this forum.

This is all so unnecessary ... How many times have we heard this before when you have a disagreement with something and then the whole forum becomes a canvas for white washing?

but this forum is no place for [b]me[/b] to be edified, in fact quite the opposite.

Is that what this is? Come on brother...

"Lord, should I hit the 'submit' button.

so why tee off?

did you just have a bad day or something? and needed to vent?

and then this Christ-like gem from your heart onto your keyboard:

now probably after you read this back and the Holy Spirit convicted you

followed by a cute lil smiley face.

Look what this is all laced with; accusations, assumptions, insinuations, smarmy comments, then threats and a judgement... "Christ-like"?

This presumption business about each other has to come to a halt. Ask questions ... [i]play the ball, not the man[/i]

Your testimony caught my attention. Here you were in Hollywood living out the dream of your heart and God's Spirit moves upon you. You are changed! Now His Spirit, and passion took over and what used to "drive" you, no longer appeals to you....I love it!!! What an Awesome Powerful God!!!! This gives me HOPE for the ones that I love who I know that God is working in their lives yet they have such a desire for the things of this world. Amen...Prayers of Blessings to you and your wife as you continue to follow after HIM in Hot Pursuit!!!

Lord, it says in Your word that we are to come into Your presence with thanksgiving, i can't help but give thanks when i when i am before You.

Thank You Father, that you have given me such a blessing, You have chosen me, You have called me your own, You have set you love upon me, and given me Your Spirit... Oh Lord, i was lost and You found me, i was sick and You healed me, i was blind You have given me sight, i was in darkness and You shined the light of Your love upon me... Thank You Lord!!!

Lord, if theres anything in my life that doesn't honor and lift You up, show me. purify my life and make my holy... like Jesus. God, i don't want to stay where i am, i want to go farther with you. Lord, you said in your word that those who seek you would find you when they would search for you with all their heart. i seek You, unite my heart to seek You with all my heart.

Righteous Father, Your Spirit burns like a fire within me, as i yield my members to You may they be consumed and feed this Fire. O Lord all i want is bring You glory, for You are worthy! You are worthy! may my life be a never-ending song of praise to You. You are worthy!

Here i am Lord.

i love you Lord.

amen.

Neil,

Do I need to evaluate each and every piece of garbage out of Hollywood to recognize it to be the stinking landfill that it truly is? If you want to take your kid to the movies and fill his mind with things that God hates, so be it. But I can't find any spiritual justification in Russel Crowe dressing up in a fake sailor costume and saying "God be praised!" as a wind machine blows into some fake sails in a movie studio. If anything, what you and your kid experienced was a soulish charge. This sort of thing is real popular in churches these days, and Hollywood's good at it too, you know.

Neil, "acting" is not a calling. And neither is my secular job, funeral directing. Not in the biblical sense anyhow. There are unsaved men and women who are much better at our professions than we are. Evangelism and pastoring are examples of callings. If we can evangelize or teach or pastor people through the mediums of our secular employment, great. But men ablaze for Jesus Christ are normally "called" to the mission fields, and not to movie studios or playhouses. I bless God that the disciples didn't come down from the upper room and choreograph a passion play or put on make-up and wigs and dress up like Roman soldiers and pretend to whip Peter (dressed up like Jesus).

I am not judging you as an actor. And I am not judging you as a father. But I [i]do[/i] have a right to comment publically on something that you posted publically without you flying off the handle and getting personal. I am just as entitled to say Russel Crowe giving God fake praise makes me sick as you are in saying he inspired you. A person in these forums can also express what they believe about Israel and the church - and you have no right to blast them on a personal level.

When I spoke negatively of actors, I was alluding to the [i]hypocritical[/i] undercurrent of the profession. That is, the constant exchanging of the proverbial mask, and I drew a parallel to that of a double-minded Christian. And then I hinted at the fearsome Judgment to come - the great "unmaksing" day, as it were - when the curtian will close on this earthly stage for the last time, the dressing room doors forever locked, and the blazing spotlight shines down for that final and unmasked monologue.

But you didn't look that deep.

Paul

Neil, "acting" is not a calling. And neither is my secular job, funeral directing. Not in the biblical sense anyhow. There are unsaved men and women who are much better at our professions than we are. Evangelism and pastoring are examples of callings.

In all fairness to Neil here, I think it is worth noting that while writing and directing a play has some professional aspects, it is much more personal and talent specific to describe it as only a profession. For instance those who are familiar with JS Bach's music realize he was both a professional employee of the church for his time but also an artist for all times.

I'm not wanting to over-romanticize the artist here, but what Neil has accomplished in Chicago is not something you can learn at a trade school or college. Creating something from ex-nihlo that is coherent and meaningful, is a vein-draining process that draws from everything the writer has lived through which in Neil's case will include his new life in Christ. I believe him when he says the Lord has graced him to write his play. Knowing how preoccupied Neil is with the things of Lord, as many of us are, I do not believe he could've committed himself to the ardous task of writing, producing, and persevering under uncertain financial and public pressures unless he felt the Lord's blessing on it.

I would also add that in all likelyhood, we can agree that being a funeral director can indeed be a calling...or at least the platform for one. It may not recieve the recognition as such from all your fellow brothers and sisters, but if we are in God's will, if we are obedient, then what we are doing must be part of His calling. In fact, it is my experience, that doing the secular job, the 'unspiritual' stuff, as unto the Lord is where we know with more centainty we have been sanctified in our hearts.

Not wanting at all to be abrasive here at all, and certainly not partisan between brothers! (Neil, inspite of my emphathy I have to admit I share Paul's surprise at the strength of your offense at him...in the sharp manner it was expressed.) Still I'm not trying to address the overall discussion about movies or Russell Crowe...only this one small point in regards to understanding the artistic or creative endeavor in man. (I thank God that man was created for more then function and utility...we are small reflections and expressions of God's astonishing creative nature!) I remember Paul, that you are familiar with Bach and his music and I felt that maybe this understanding could help explain Neil's taking exception to your comments.

Blessings brothers,

MC

Not wanting at all to be abrasive here at all, and certainly not partisan between brothers! (Neil, inspite of my emphathy I have to admit I share Paul's surprise at the strength of your offense at him...in the sharp manner it was expressed.) Still I'm not trying to address the overall discussion about movies or Russell Crowe...only this one small point in regards to understanding the artistic or creative endeavor in man. (I thank God that man was created for more then function and utility...we are small reflections and expressions of God's astonishing creative nature!) I remember Paul, that you are familiar with Bach and his music and I felt that maybe this understanding could help explain Neil's taking exception to your comments.

Thank you MC. Well said and well done. The things that can get under our skin sometimes are telling, that set us off, a small comment and we can begin to pour all kinds of personal meaning and assumptions into them. One thing when we are wrestling with scripture and trying to derive the meaning out of it and quite another when we want to start making character assumptions about each other, [i]these things ought not to be[/i].

We can either fight for true unity of understanding or go off and separate ourselves into camps and affiliations of those that only find agreement with our assumptions and personal preferences. It can be both the beauty and the beast of this forum, if we will but look at the things exposed by all this and deal with those things.

Wonderful post, Mike. I find your posts full of eloquence and thought. Let me try to state my case here as lucidly as I can, seeing we have dove into yet deeper waters.

I carry a distinction between "talent" and "calling", as I make distinctions between "spirit" and "soul." A vocation, I feel, is not necessarily a calling - even if the vocation in question is built upon a measure of artistic merit. A wonderful case in point is J.S. Bach. Essentially, Bach considered himself a craftsman, an industious [i]cappellmeister[/i] doing his utmost job for the glory of God and the edification of man. It just so happened he was a transcendental genius in his craft. This, still, in my view, is not a calling. Bach did not preach the gospel through his works. Many of his greatest concertos and keyboard works were written in honor of noblemen and regal occasions. Bach had an extraordinary talent, a supreme mastery and all-surpassing gift to create incredible music that is able to penetrate the soul and evoke profound emotions and tears. Rembrant had it too. I've stood before a genuine Rembrandt at a museum in Russia and burst into tears. It wasn't a painting of Christ crucified; it was just a painting of a young girl sitting down. A mysterious soulful power diffuses through the works of men gifted with such transcendental artistic abilities - but I winder if these gifts and talents are in the same category as "callings" in the Biblical sense.

Billy Sunday was an extraordinary baseball player; was baseball his calling? No, I propose baseball was his great talent, his gifted and physical vocation through which God "called" him out to preach the gospel. If you were to ask Bach about his calling, he would probably be confused. "Am I a clergyman? My job is to compose music for St. Thomas' church and train the schoolboys in the ways of good, harmonious music."

We need to be careful, I think, when we throw around the terms, "I have been [i]called[/i] by God to do such-and-such" or "My [i]calling[/i] by God is (fill in the blank for any passion you've chose to do in life)." Having amazing abilities to stir emotions and bring tears does not automatically mean God has called you to do it - [i]even if you do it in the name of Jesus[/i]. This is a hard pill to swallow for some people! I'm sure Neil has written a fabulous play. And he believes God "told" him to write it, and inspired him, and gave him the money to do it, and made it popular, and people cried when they saw it, etc. All this may be. And I don't know anyhting about Neil, or his play, or his relationship with God. I am not contesting him; I would, however, ask him what I would ask anyone who claims to have "heard from God" and been given special provision to execute a task that really has no historical corollary to what true Biblical and Apostolic "callings" usually entail:

"How do you know it was God that told you? And how do you know you are not merely flexing your artistic muse given by God (a muse given not only to believers, but to the unsaved as well) to do a soul-inspired work [i]in his Name[/i]?"

I think a good way to determine whether or not a project is of God is this: Does it provoke others to absolute surrender and perfection in abandonment to God? Does it promote a lifestyle of holiness and self-denial in Jesus Christ? If not, I am bold to say you haven't heard from God no matter how ardently you say you have. Your work is a product of the soul - and it may be a magnificently evocative work indeed - but it is not of God, the true Holy God of the Bible. God can use it - and will, most likely - but it is only a product of human passion regardless of how many "visions" you say you've had or tears shed in prayer or how many times Jesus or God is referenced in the work. The "coherent" gospel message being projected in your work is also open to subjectivity - what is your gospel? These are all fair questions, I feel. God blesses the things we choose. Case in point is King Saul, who was chosen by the people, and God had Samuel anoint him. Analogically, God may desire one path for us, but we choose another, pray for blessing and God gives increase. How do you know your project is not a soulish King Saul to ornament your own kingdom of self-will? I say this with all humility, but I think so many of the ministries and projects and outreaches we pray for and erect in the Name of God are [i]not[/i] as God-authentic (that is, having their original genesis in God's will) as we suppose they are.

Brother Paul

Hi Paul,

Thank you for the warm response.

I can agree with your perspective for the most part. I wouldn't want to strain the heart of the word 'calling' to make it mean whatever we fancy.

Your point is well taken...that we should never spiritualize or gloryify human endeavors as if these activities are callings in and of themselves. Paul's example of tent-making shows a clear example of the dichotomy you are pointing out that exists between vocation and calling.

Yet I am still opposed to thinking that a job is that something we do when were are not doing our calling.

To put all the cards out on the table, let me share that I work with a group of Christian men in a commercial illustration studio. As a vocation we market services, pay taxes and take home some provision for the family. Yet each of us recognize that God has placed us where we are...we rejoice that his hand is on our effort and duties. And through his grace we fiind weekly opportunities to use our secular platform to witness to the various creative professionals we do business with, both in deed and in word.

So while I would agree with you that illustrating a book or a food packaging label is not a spiritual calling in of itself...the manner in which we do these things has indeed become our calling. That is to say...as you readily recognize...not all ministry needs to take place 'in the ministry.'

The consecration of our 'industry' is not an after thought to us. In fact, it effects not only our attitude to the clients we interact with, but also our attitudes towards one another including the touchy subject of money. (Even most Christians can't believe how we've set up the pay structure here...although we find that unity and cooperation is much preferred, even on a practical level, to competitive striving.)

Now I appreciate the clarity of terminology you are holding to. I am only pointing that a calling, still properly defined and understood, may fit into many vessels which can be brought into many situations, and manifest in many environments. If one moment we are serving a client's needs, and another we are stealing an opportunity to share Jesus with them...the contrast between calling and vocation becomes harder to work out because each one touches the other.

One last note that might be of interest to you...

If you were to ask Bach about his calling, he would probably be confused. "Am I a clergyman? My job is to compose music for St. Thomas' church and train the schoolboys in the ways of good, harmonious music."

Certainly Bach was a highly discipline technician who could write music with a professional almost clinical science. Yet, I would like to challenge your picture of him downplaying his own spiritual purpose in his work. I believe he did indeed intend to convey the Gospel in some of his music. I think you will find this book,[url=http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Bach-Cantatas-Eric-Chafe/dp/0195161823/ref=ed_oe_p/002-5415958-1454438]Analyzing Bach's Cantatas[/url] very intriguing. The author, Eric Chafe, presents a fairly technical case that Bach was not only a master craftsman concerned with counterpoint and modality for music's sake, but infused much of his church music with deep theological statement....not superficially in the lyrics but symbolically and allegorically in the structure of the music itself. In other words, Bach was capabale of such multi-dimensional thinking that he was writing music not only with horizontal and vertical music considerations, but more importantly infusing his art with deliberate illustrations of theological concepts...some of which are much better illustrated in music then in word. For instance, how do you convey the plausibility of three indepedent persons in one? With counterpoint of three intertwining melodies each moving in opposing directions and yet all in agreement lyrically. There are many better examples then this in the book, showing that Bach was not just expresssing his musical powers, but on a deeper level, he was truly worshipping...both cognitively as well as emotionally. (Although the secular author might put it "He was deliberately expressing Lutheran Theological ideas in the composition of the music itself.")

In this sense Bach was sincere when he signed his vocational work with the famous signature statement, "For the Glory of God." I believe that all of us can sign our work in some way with a similar signature...if not as visibly as Bach did.

Oh well...enough shop talk. Not wanting to split hairs with you here brother. Just a little harmonious counterpoint beneath your melody. ;-)

Thanks so much for the keen dialogue. It's a pleasure.

Blessings,

MC

Thank you for the gracious response, Mike.

I wouldn't want to strain the heart of the word 'calling' to make it mean whatever we fancy.

Duly noted, brother.

I suppose I've heard the word "calling" used by so many unregenerate men and women that it has really lost its shape and become a coloquialism for mere "talent" or "passion." I've just heard the word applied so much in the secular and art word. Mel Gibson has a calling. Joan of Arc had a calling. Rev. Jesse Jackson has a calling. It's gotten so that anyone who can do something well has been [i]called[/i] and indued by God whether it promotes the true gospel or not. And I suppose this loose term has carried over to Christianity. I am predisposed to think of the circuit rides of Wesley's day who experienced [i]the call of God[/i] and left their blacksmith and barrelmaking jobs to preach the living gospel. This is what comes to mind when I think of the [i]call[/i].

Here's something interesting for you: You speak of religious symbolism being found in Bach's works. Did you know that the number 3 "Trinity" element is found even in the most esoteric of his compositions? I don't know how familiar you are with his ouevre, but the Goldberg Variations (a theme with 30 variations written as a lulabye for a nobleman who suffered from insomnia) has been dissected and broken into 10 groups of 3 variations, with each subset consisting of a canon piece, a miscellaneous movement, and a virtuostic arabesque. I've listened to the work many times, and have only recently discovered this. The gospel narrative in triptych form has also been discovered in the six solo violin sonatas and partitas. It's astounding when you realize that Bach was able to infuse these cryptic yet idiomatic symbolisms even in his solo-stringed instrumental music!

Anyhow, I won't go on. It's getting late here. Thank you for this discussion!

Brother Paul :-)

Hi Paul,

I am predisposed to think of the circuit rides of Wesley's day who experienced the call of God and left their blacksmith and barrelmaking jobs to preach the living gospel. This is what comes to mind when I think of the call.

Well that is wonderful. I glady defer to these better examples of the call...such shining historic testimonies are in a class by themselves and bring me great hope that we could see these things again.

Bless you for walking a little down the road with me Paul.

MC

BTW, that is very interesting about Bach. I didn't know those things at all. I'll be listening to my copy of the solo violin sonatas and partitas tonight.

Good morning Mike,

While driving my car to San Antonio this morning, I began musing over word origins - and in particular, the words "vocation" and "profession." I saw that in "vocation" the root is the same that is in words like "invoke" or "provoke", which is [i]vox[/i], or voice. A call. A witch is able to [i]invoke[/i] spirits, that is, the spirits are [i]called[/i] or summoned by a power not within them. An extraneous behesting is involved. For the word "profession", however, I saw that this comes from [i]within[/i] the professor. A profession of faith. I began to entertain the thought that a profession is intrinsically self-chosen, calculated and deliberate whereas a vocation is a an innerly-perceivable invasion from an outside entity.

I also realized I had been using "vocation" and "profession" interchangably, when in fact, they seem to be worlds apart! I think there are multitudes of people in professions which they consider to be vocations. Especially if they are visionaries! I remember when I played classical guitar - everyone who heard me said it was my calling. I suppose they thought I played very well! I played Bach fugues and transposed his keyboard works and even played in small string ensembles when I lived in Boston and New York. But, alas, it took many years to ascertain that my guitar playing wasn't, in fact, the "calling" God had placed on my life, but more of a talent I had diligently cultivated and decided - for lack of a better avenue in life - to persue as a means of financial provision and artistic fulfillment!
I see now in retrospect how vain it all was. Now, I play guitar in our church and give God glory through my gift, but I do not consider guitar-playing my "calling" per se (though I do acknowledge it as a facet of ministy).

I remember a few years back I preached a message to a college crowd that caused a bit of a stir. In the message, I proposed that many of the Christian students in attendance may in fact be [i]out[/i] of the will of God and persuing a self-chosen profession rather than fulfilling the original "calling" placed upon their life. That somewhere, somehow, a diversion had taken place. I only invited a consideration of this possibility, but the effect was one negativity and indignance. How dare I hint that they may be out of step with God! Many just "knew" God had called them to be accountants and respiratory therapists and microbiologists! How did they know this? Well, they "felt" the calling, prayed, and God gave them a release. Leonard Ravenhill said that the hardest thing for a young person to do in life is to discover the perfect will of God. How difficult indeed this is! Who can tach us this? What textbook or Bible study or seminary can teach us to hear the will of God and differentiate between soul and spirit, the divine purpose of God and the soulish aspirations of man? Philanthropical endeavors in the name of Jesus Christ do not guarantee a specific ministry is of God's original calling.

I'll be back, Mike! Let me know your thoughts. I'll be pondering the "calling" versus the "profession" all day most likely. Perhaps we should start a new thread? Ah, there is much we can learn and glean from (myself first and foremost) if we are lead by the Spirit in this topic of study and thought!

Blessings of Christ on you,

Brother Paul

Also, you would know that he had completely surrendered acting as a means of earning his living, until the Lord gave him that word to write the play.

Well, let me just say that the phrase, "I have received________from the Lord" has become somewhat of an expediency today, and I think too many of us just indiscriminately accept these testimonies as something genuinely from the heart of God, when two factors are dubiously missing that, if they were present, would instantly quell all speculation and verify their alleged assertion, namely: 1. the engendering of holiness in the person claiming to have heard from God, and, 2. the provocation [i]to[/i] holiness by those who come in contact with the professed vision.

Brother Paul

Neil,

I have no problem admitting "I am wrong", and I have no problem saying "I don't know." In fact, I [i]love[/i] saying these things! I've said them many times before on SI, and in the pulpit even. It exonorates me and gives me freedom. But in all fairness, I really can't see how these statements apply to this discussion; I still don't believe "acting" qualifies as a calling, but it's my understanding of "calling" now that has come into question. These things are still being sorted out.

I've never said that God [i]didn't[/i] talk to you or tell you to write a play. Honestly, you've gotten so defensive that the focal point of this discussion is almost totally muddled. All I wanted to do is rightly [i]challenge[/i] things like this, and since your play came to be mentioned, I used it as an example. Neil, hear this admonition, please. If you really heard from God (and I believe you did), why get so defensive and angry and exasperated if someone who doesn't know you merely enquires? Note that not anywhere in my previous posts did I allude to your play not being from God. I only questioned the whole "actor/calling" thing. And I still do.

Brother, I trust you haven't likened me to a proud pharisee as your closing statements may indicate. I rather pray that I have misconstrued your thoughts, as you have grossly misconstrued mine.

Let's stop this, please! Dicussing religious symbolism in Bach's music is so much more edifying!

Brother Paul

But men ablaze for Jesus Christ are normally "called" to the mission fields, and not to movie studios or playhouses.

What better mission field than the playhouses!!!

May I share a bit about my own experiences? I have been a missionary. And I have also worked in playhouses (as a musician). There is absolutely no difference between sinners in the “mission field” and sinners in the playhouses! They all need Christ, and they need to see real Christians moving among them. Both areas are mission fields. And God sometimes calls you to trample on the same dirty sod where they walk on.

Now I realize that some of the stuff that goes on in playhouses is appalling, and if you are sensitive in spirit, you will know what to do about it. I was once asked to be the music director for a play. It had a few shady spots that I was concerned about. So I told the director (also the script writer) that he had an important influence on society as a playwrite. I told him that his role was to present society with a better alternative than the trash people typically see. I also told him that if he wanted the families and relatives of these actors to come and see the play, he would have to delete certain parts. He listened to me and made all the changes I recommended. We had a packed house every night. The rumor went out that this was a great show! (In the past that theatre had a reputation for putting out trash, and respectable people stayed away.)

My calling is related to my relationship with Jesus. I am called to belong to Jesus and to radiate his nature wherever I am – whether among sinners on a foreign land under a Christian organization, working among sinners in playhouses, or playing hymns at church.

Anyone who thinks that there is a greater risk of straying from God in playhouses than in mission organizations has not seen “behind the scenes” . It doesn’t matter what you do – any work can become more important to you than God – be it pastoring, painting, drawing, acting, singing, hammering, leading Bible clubs…

One more story: I know a farmer who really he was a pastor at heart. His church had no use for him. He wasn’t into the role-thing there. But he did more mentoring – via emails, chats, passing articles, etc than a lot of pastors ever get to do in years.
Sometimes you have more freedom to serve God when you aren’t hitched to any Christian organization.

Diane

Hi Paul,

You make an interesting distinction between vocation and profession. Like you I have unwittingly blended these two ideas. It might be an interesting thread to discuss callings and how they relate to our 'secular' roles.

In the message, I proposed that many of the Christian students in attendance may in fact be out of the will of God and persuing a self-chosen profession rather than fulfilling the original "calling" placed upon their life.

This idea challenges me but it does not ofend me. Indeed, one of my secret fears to serious prayer is that once we finally have the lights turned on in our hearts, we will be flooded with regrets over the lukewarm years. Still we persevere in prayer wanting all our deeds pleasing to the Lord...even if our good deeds are at first only repenting for the evil and waste we have committed ...He is faithful.

This is one reason I happily welcome the benchmark you pointed to in those men who left their jobs under Wesley's preaching. I believe God is spiritually blessing the work he has supplied me with, but I would never want to esteem my life as high as those who dedicate their lives to preaching the gospel without ceasing.

Yet I still believe we can have a very real calling even while engaged in 'secular' work; that is to say we can be obedient, responsible, and joyful in the secular place or role God has given us, being diligent and faithful in providing for our families, and caring for others.

While keeping preaching and teaching the Word of God in a class by itself, I believe scripture does support a more 'global' picture of calling...that is to say that a Christian is 'called' not only to Preach the gospel but also to exemplify the Gospel in all aspects of life. Not to strain our terminology here...

Col. 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

18Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

19Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

20Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

21Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

22Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;

23And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

The saints Paul was writing too were being encouraged to fulfill their calling. Obviously he was writing to a local community and not a seminary for evangelists...so there is the implication that a calling of God could be evident and fullfilled in whatsoever these saints were doing. Obviously this whatsoever couldn't negate or contradict the testimony of the Christ within them, but this scripture seems to indicate that not only preachers and evangelists have callings...but also fathers, wives, children and servants.

And I dare say...this scripture may suggest that even playwrites can fulfill their calling to the body of Christ.;-)Not that writing screen plays is spiritual in itself...but being faithful in the task as unto the Lord is certainly part of a calling...at least as calling is used in Colosians.

Even so I still regard preaching the Gospel as the highest calling. I say that with gratitude for Godly preachers and not with envy or disdain for where the Lord has me in business.

Your thoughts?

Blessings brother,

MC

Well, I've read all three posts. Thank you all for the gracious discussions. I think it's expedient to say that every Christian upon conversion gets a [i]calling[/i] placed on his or her life regardless of what they do for a living or where they do it. But I am still having a problem linking the calling to the profession; the calling, I believe, is unto Christ alone who can certainly [i]use[/i] the Christian in his or her profession. But I just can't reconcile the fact that the profession has become the calling itself. Oh, the tediousness of it all!

Quite simply: The call, the [i]vox[/i] is "Follow me." (Matt. 5:19). The call therefore is not acting (which is how this whole thing started), or fishing, or tentmaking, or baseball, or playwriting, or undertaking - though we can walk worthy of the calling in any one of these areas!

Any thoughts?

Brother Paul

Oh, the tediousness of it all!

:-) Which is one reason I appreciate patience...
I tend to learn very slo-o-o-o-wly.

Quite simply: The call, the vox is "Follow me." (Matt. 5:19). The call therefore is not acting (which is how this whole thing started), or fishing, or tentmaking, or baseball, or playwriting, or undertaking - though we can walk worthy of the calling in any one of these areas!

This sounds right to me, though it can be said that in following we may be led into various tasks and situations. A husband providing for his family might feel God has given Him a secular job to to...and might rather be in fulltime ministry but out of submission thinks of his work as his present calling. (Not that this is the best use of the term.)

In any case we can agree that our calling is brought to bear on whatsoever we do. If we must take on acceptable 'secular' work that does not grieve the Spirit, we can apply ourselves with devotion and obedience to God, and if we find ourselves doing unacceptable work that does indeed grieve the Holy Spirit, our devotion and obedience will disown such a profession or vocation. I only mention this to iron out Neil's statement that everything is redeemable. Men and women are redeemable...worldly institutions and economies are at best reformable but ultimately these corrupt things will be, I believe, replaced entirely with God's kingdom.

And that's another thread I'm sure...but felt it applies here. Along side of Paul's seperation of calling from professional task, I would add we are called to be aliens and not residents even in our workplaces...redeemed from this world which will pass away.

Blessings,

MC

"redeemable"

Brothers, think you all have gone to great lengths to do just that here ... This heart can hardly express how edifying that truly is. This whole post could serve as a model towards an understanding of how conversing ... ought to go.

This segment posted elsewhere I think sums up the whole matter quite well;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10733&forum=34&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]A Word about Pride to all but Especially to Ministers of the Gospel[/url]

There is something also that I am struggling mightily to track down ... It was a appealing to a sense of fighting for unity, true, Christ honoring unity, that which would expense ones self to keep the benefit of the other.

Well done brothers.

Hi Jordan

Paul covered this subject in Romans 14:
Eddie

Hi everyone.

Brother PaulWest, you asked for any thoughts concerning this following and 1Cor 7:20-24 came to mind...

Quite simply: The call, the vox is "Follow me." (Matt. 5:19). The call therefore is not acting (which is how this whole thing started), or fishing, or tentmaking, or baseball, or playwriting, or undertaking - though we can walk worthy of the calling in any one of these areas!

Not even saying it applies exactly but thought it may be helpfull for the consideration. I can't remember exactly who it was, maybe D James Kennedy or R.C. Sproul that I heard talking about the subject of what they called our [i]vocation[/i] as a matter of calling in God. That might be helpfull in looking into the subject?

Hmmm...trying to think of an example to look at from scripture...how about Esther?

Chris

Your calling is where ever you are at. You are a missionary where ever you are at. You are a deciple of the Lord and that doesn't mean that you have to be a preacher, a board member, an evangelist, etc. to be doing the Lord's work for his glory. To many people just sit in the pew doing nothing because they think that way and they need to be told to go and that is especially where they work.

Some of the pew sitters may end up being an oversees missionary, but until they become a missionary where they are at they'll never get there. What is done needs to be done unto the Lord and if it is cleaning toilets then go do it. What is done for Christ will last and there are no little things with God.

The rebuilt foundation looked small, but the Glory in that small temple was to be greater than the Glory of the previous large temple. That wasn't worldly gold and the appearance of it, that was real Glory.

You don't need a title to be called, the Lord already told you to go into the world and preach the gospel.

Love you all,
GaryE

Neil,

Cedar point sounds like fun. (I hope that was an invitation...) Maybe we can make it a dual Father/son outing..at least for a day. (I'm not overbearing 8-)) As far as Ripley, it's a small world...

Paul,

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but beling able to play Bach fugues on a classical guitar is impressive in my book. (Forgive me.) Please consider laying some pieces down in a local studio...not for yourself but for your descendants should the Lord tarry. Such things are as good as pictures to let future family know what kind of man you were. Like your pictures, and letters, a small CD of your music can be a wonderful part of the Godly heritage you leave behind. Bach on a classical guitar is no small accomplishment to encourage your next generation!

Just some thoughts.

Thanks Mike B. Neil has a point: SI is redeeming this corner of the internet. You've had a hard week...but you are loved. It's hard to measure all of the ways your ministry, within and beyond SI, touches all of us.

Perhaps Gary E says it best.

What is done for Christ will last and there are no little things with God.

Blessings,

MC

Please consider laying some pieces down in a local studio...not for yourself but for your descendants should the Lord tarry.

Not a bad idea! Maybe a small CD of Bach pieces and send it out [i]gratis[/i] to my SI brothers and sisters as a gift. I can also put some mp3 files on my website.

Thanks for the inspiration!

Brother Paul

this is good way to present the gifts including such many entertainment things