Acts 27 - Storm at Sea question

I have a question concerning Paul's situation in Acts 27. I am sure most of you are familiar with this story of Paul's trip to Rome. It turns out that a violent storm came and caused the ship to wreck at an island.

I have included certain verses that directly pertain to the following question, but please consult the entire chapter in case you wish. (I do not want to be accused of taking anything out of context.) ;-)

In Acts 27:22 Paul said

Yet now I urge you to take heart, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship.

'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar. And behold, God has granted you all those who sail with you.'

"Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved."

Acts 27:32 tells us that the soldiers did as Paul suggested.

Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the ship's boat and let it go.

Then in Acts 27:34 Paul reiterates

for not a hair is to perish from the head of any of you."

Question: In light verses 22, 24, and 34, was the possible that the men could have gotten into that boat and died?

Most definitely.

Most definitely.

Please explain.

Question: In light verses 22, 24, and 34, was the possible that the men could have gotten into that boat and died?

The promise was no doubt conditional. It is what Ron has sometimes called an "If-then" promise. In this case we find that staying on the ship was the only real condition of being saved. If anyone got off the ship- they forfeited their claim to salvation. Whne the men tried to lower the life boat- they were made known the 'condition'.

The story is really one of having disobeyed the voice of God. Paul was the oracle on board the ship. When he spoke- it was as if God was speaking and when he warned them not to sail- it was as if they had disobeyed God. What was their plight? Fear and darkness. Trouble and danger. They could not as much as see their hand in front of their face. They were carried along they knew not where. This is what happens when men disobey God. There is no way to navigate- they are simply along for the ride and at the mercy of God. Yet, God in His great mercy after so long a time may well speak again. This is the God of the 'second chance'. This is what happened on this ship. And as Paul told them... they should have listened the first time. ;-)

I wrote some posts in a haughty spirit, and the moderator left some links to sermons about authority, and being under authority, so when I heard them they spoke of GOD is the authority, that implying that resisting men in submission (whether I am aware or not) is amout to kicking back at GOD.

I think we are of no theat to GOD's purposes. like chickens running backwards, cluking all the way.

The promise was no doubt conditional. It is what Ron has sometimes called an "If-then" promise. In this case we find that staying on the ship was the only real condition of being saved. If anyone got off the ship- they forfeited their claim to salvation. Whne the men tried to lower the life boat- they were made known the 'condition'.

Powerful spiritual implications here that i hadn't noticed before.

The promise was no doubt conditional. It is what Ron has sometimes called an "If-then" promise. In this case we find that staying on the ship was the only real condition of being saved. If anyone got off the ship- they forfeited their claim to salvation. Whne the men tried to lower the life boat- they were made known the 'condition'.

This may be implied, but it is not explicit.

God said:

Acts 27:22, "Yet now I urge you to take heart, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship."

When the storm began, God made a promise to Paul. There will be no loss of life among you. No one who was on the ship at that time would die. Only the ship would be destroyed. God doesn't place any condition in this statement.

Acts 27:24, "'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar. And behold, God has granted you all those who sail with you.'"

God has granted you all those who sail with you. This is not all those who stay on the ship, but this is all those who are on the ship at that time.

Acts 27:34, "for not a hair is to perish from the head of any of you."

This statement was made after the men did not get into the boat but it reinforces the earlier promise God made to Paul, 'there will be no loss of life among you.'

I know that the men did desire to get in the boat, but they did not get into the boat. Why? Because God saw to it that they did not die because His word was on the line.

God promised that none would die, if some would have died then wouldn't that make God a liar? This is why I saw that the men could not have gotten into that boat.

This is an amazing example of how God's sovereign will and man's free will coexist. The men made a free-will choice not to get into the boat, but it was because God had willed for them not to get into the boat.

[u]When the storm began[/u], God made a promise to Paul. There will be no loss of life among you. No one who was on the ship at that time would die. Only the ship would be destroyed. God doesn't place any condition in this statement.

Two observations here. First, actually the ship had been having difficulty and was in some measure of danger since before they even arrived at the Fair Havens. Paul warns them not to leave as he had 'perceived' the danger of going on. The set sail and fell almost immediately into a storm and the ship was out of control. they were at least three days in a severe storm before the angel appeared.

My second observation is that Paul did not tell the people the full message. He gave to them the promise first. Perhaps he did not feel the need to share the condition until it became evident that the folk were about to break that condition? this would make it a 'then-if' conditional promise. Why he did not give the full details before is unclear, but once the condition is made known it has to be taken into account:

Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, 'If these do not remain in the ship -- ye are not able to be saved;' (Acts 28:31 YLT)

This is why it is important to 'keep reading' the word of God. Folk want often to stop at the promise and hold onto it for dear life and ignore the plainly revealed conditions of the promises. No matter at what point in the dialogue they are told- once they are told they have to be taken into account. If those men had dropped the life boat and gotten into it- the ships captian would have been lost. That's my plain reading of the text. Pointing to the original promise, "But Paul, you said earlier we would all be saved..." Paul did not tell them the promise was unconditional. To assume this is to greatly err. He did not lie to the men. He revealed the information on a need to know basis. And when they needed to know- he told them and not before then.

This may be implied, but it is not explicit.

I know that the men did desire to get in the boat, but they did not get into the boat. Why? Because God saw to it that they did not die because His word was on the line.

I don't agree with this. God saw to it that this account was included into the record of this voyage as a great lesson to us. I think it is worth noting how so much space is spent on it when other stories are just summarized.

Truly if God was going to force the men to do what He wanted then there is no reason to give a warning to the leaders. It is a mute point. It makes the whole dialogue into pretense. They leaders had a decision to make. They could take seriously what Paul said- or not. Many a man has disregarded God's counsel and perished. These men would not have been the first or the last.

RobertW wrote:

Truly if God was going to force the men to do what He wanted then there is no reason to give a warning to the leaders. It is a mute point. It makes the whole dialogue into pretense. They leaders had a decision to make. They could take seriously what Paul said- or not. Many a man has disregarded God's counsel and perished. These men would not have been the first or the last.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree with you. What about the story of Jonah? God's purpose was still accomplished even though Jonah first disobeyed God. I don't know the mind of God, but I do know that He cannot lie because Scripture tells us that (Titus 1:2). God told Paul that not one of those sailors would perish, so I personally believe that they could not die, or God would be a liar.

Sellsie's: God told Paul that not one of those sailors would perish, so I personally believe that they could not die, or God would be a liar.

Yes, but God also told Paul that if any leave the ship then they could not be saved. We have to take the entire account as a whole. A [i]text[/i] without a [i]context[/i] is a [i]pretext[/i]. God would not be a liar if they perished unless they died without warning. They were warned of the condition. If they chose to disobey then God is not a liar- the disobedient would have -perished for their decision.

The promise made to Paul was conditional, but not in the sense that you say. The promise was not only for the storm, but for the duration of the trip to Rome. We know this because eventually all the men died.

Please look at the promise:

22And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

God promised that no one would die and that only the ship would be destroyed. This happened.

23For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

God had given safety to all that traveled with Paul. This happened and none died.

25Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

The promise was that none of those who sailed with Paul would perish in the storm. The angel told Paul and Paul believed God.

Also, for another example please notice verses 42-44:

42And the soldiers' counsel was to kill the prisoners, lest any of them should swim out, and escape.
43But the centurion, willing to save Paul, kept them from their purpose; and commanded that they which could swim should cast themselves first into the sea, and get to land:
44And the rest, some on boards, and some on broken pieces of the ship. And so it came to pass, that they escaped all safe to land.

Remember, God had earlier promised Paul that none would die. Now, we have the soldiers making a plan to kill the prisoners. If the soldiers would have killed the prisoners then God's promise would have been void.

But what happened? The centurion saved Paul's life. The centurion did exactly what God wanted him to do. This is another example of God's Sovereign will coexisting with man's free will. Was there any condition in this second instance?

All promises are conditional at some level.

What is conditional about Hebrews 13:5 other than it is made to Christians?
"I will never leave you nor forsake you."

The frustrating thing about what you are saying is that God makes promises but whether or not they are realized is up to us.

The Bible says in Ephesians 1:11 that God, "works all things according to the counsel of his will"

Also in Isaiah 14:24, "The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand."

Isaiah 46:9-10, "Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

God's sovereignly brings things about according to His good pleasure. This does not mean that man does not make choices, what it means is that man's choices fulfill God's plans. The two can coexist and Acts 27 demonstrates this fact.

JaySaved wrote:

All promises are conditional at some level.

What is conditional about Hebrews 13:5 other than it is made to Christians?
"I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Amen. If this promise is conditional, then we are in deep trouble. If this promise is conditional, it is no longer God's grace which saves but has now become our works that save. Sorry for going off on a tangent...I felt compelled to respond to this. :-D

What is conditional about Hebrews 13:5 other than it is made to Christians?
"I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Hebrews 13:5 was given it's condition earlier:

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:38, 39)

This verse suggests that there are some that will 'draw back' unto perdition. This is a picture of a ship that furls its sails when going into battle. The wind is in the sails, but the captain does not like the direction or does not want the battle. Quite a sober warning I think. The drawing back leads to perdition if it is continued in.

The frustrating thing about what you are saying is that God makes promises but whether or not they are realized is up to us.

This is the way He has sovereignly chosen to work things out. In His sovereignty He has given man the ability to 'choose'. Man is called to 'choose ye'. That is man's responsibility. God called Israel to be a great nation; but their 'choice' ultimately led them away from what God wanted for them. Jesus wept over Jerusalam and said how long He desired to gather them, but they [i]would not[/i]. That was God's reaction to their choice. This was not God crying over His own decisions- but over a people whom He had given to make their own.

Amen. If this promise is conditional, then we are in deep trouble.

Not unless we decide to walk away from God (furl the sails).

I am sorry Robert but I respectfully disagree with your statement.

Hebrews 10:38-39 speak of two types of people who profess faith:
- Those who are genuine
- Those who are false

Notice Paul makes the statement, 'But we are not like them'. This signifies that we belong to God and cannot draw back.

This also agrees with 2 Timothy 2:16-19
But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity."

Once again there are two types: Those who swerve from the truth and those who belong to God. God's firm foundation stands because he keeps those who are His.

This also agrees with 1 John 2:19-20,
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge."

Notice that there were some who were with us, but left us. What does John say about them? He says they left because they were not of us to begin with. Their leaving proved that they did not belong to begin with. Then John says, 'But you have been anointed'.

What you are saying is that God makes the following statement:
"I will never leave you nor forsake you unless you fall away, then I will leave you and forsake you."

If all of God's promises are based upon me, then may God have mercy on my soul because I fail everyday. What assurance and hope would I have? But praise be to God for He holds me and seats me in the Heavenly places with Christ.

I am sorry Robert but I respectfully disagree with your statement.

Hebrews 10:38-39 speak of two types of people who profess faith:
- Those who are genuine
- Those who are false

Notice Paul makes the statement, 'But we are not like them'. This signifies that we belong to God and cannot draw back.

I am anxious to hear how you make this jibe with:

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Romans 11:20-22)

This also agrees with 1 John 2:19-20,
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge."

I understand what you are saying here. The trouble is -is that we are living in real time and don't have the advantage of knowing who is and who is not written in the Lambs Book of Life. So the warnings repeated over and over in the New Testament are valid for me right here and right now because I have not yet heard "Well done thou good and faithful servant." That is a future event. Until that day I will continue to give all diligence to make my calling and election sure- working out my own salvation with fear and trembling.

If all of God's promises are based upon me, then may God have mercy on my soul because I fail everyday. What assurance and hope would I have? But praise be to God for He holds me and seats me in the Heavenly places with Christ.

I think you are carrying what has been said too far. I don't believe in hair trigger damnation. I believe there is a certain place a person can go in which either it becomes evident that they were never saved to begin with or they have fallen from grace. Our justification is not fragile. That is Finney's Gov't of God type assurance. That I can never believe.

Robert and Jay,

All of his promises are yes and amen in Jesus. That being said, we have to respond to them appropriately. Robert, I appreciate how you have explained your points thus far. It really makes a difference by reading the whole story or just taking one piece out. Scripture explains scripture.

I can see what you are saying Jay about Hebrews 13:15, but on the same hand if we leave him or forsake him. Do you think at the end of it all, we would be invited into heaven, having not done the master's will or abiding in Him continually?

Murray

RobertW wrote:

I am anxious to hear how you make this jibe with Romans 11:20-22

These verses do not say that it is possible for individuals to lose their faith. What it does state is that Gentiles should not boast over the Jews because we are recipients of God's grace and they are experiencing a partial hardening. We are told that this partial hardening will last until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Then the Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

RobertW wrote:

I understand what you are saying here. The trouble is -is that we are living in real time and don't have the advantage of knowing who is and who is not written in the Lambs Book of Life. So the warnings repeated over and over in the New Testament are valid for me right here and right now because I have not yet heard "Well done thou good and faithful servant." That is a future event. Until that day I will continue to give all diligence to make my calling and election sure- working out my own salvation with fear and trembling.

I agree. We do not know who is or is not a true child of God. I also agree that the warnings in scripture are to be applied to all people who profess faith in Christ. Where we disagree is this: "Can a true Child of God fall away from grace?" I maintain that one cannot and I believe you are saying it is possible. (Please correct me if I am wrong in your view.)
I am not advocating that if a person makes a profession of faith then they can do what they want without consequence. I am advocating that those who fall away from faith fall away because they were not truly born again in the first place.

RobertW wrote:

I think you are carrying what has been said too far. I don't believe in hair trigger damnation. I believe there is a certain place a person can go in which either it becomes evident that they were never saved to begin with or they have fallen from grace. Our justification is not fragile. That is Finney's Gov't of God type assurance. That I can never believe.

I agree with what you said except the part 'or they have fallen from grace'. I do not believe it is possible according to scripture to fall from grace. I see admonitions to remain faithful, but I also see assurances that God will keep and continue His good work in Christians.

murdog wrote:

I can see what you are saying Jay about Hebrews 13:15, but on the same hand if we leave him or forsake him. Do you think at the end of it all, we would be invited into heaven, having not done the master's will or abiding in Him continually?

I do not believe that a born again, regenerate person can ever forsake Christ. Yes, we will sin and screw up royally, but we will always be brought back into repentance. God will come after us and keep on close to Him because we are His children and we are heirs.

As an aside.

Robert and others I want to thank you for this dialog. It has been very respectful and edifying to me and I hope to you as well.

Thank you.

Jay,

Forgive my density, but what does "As an aside" mean?

Murray

I could have probably used a better term.

I meant it as a comment from me that is not directly connected to the flow of discussion.

I could have done without it that sentence now that I look back or at least but some parenthesis around it.

Jay,

Thanks for the clarification! By the way, I have found this discussion most educational. You guys both have humble, teachable attitudes, and it shows. :-)

Murray

I am not advocating that if a person makes a profession of faith then they can do what they want without consequence. I am advocating that those who fall away from faith fall away because they were not truly born again in the first place.

I could also make that argument and be in agreement, but there are still some anomalies to this. Consider another familiar passage from Hebrews:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. or the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

If they have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost then they once had the earnest of their inheritance (Ephesians 1). They did not merely sin, but they 'fell away'. This is serious stuff, no doubt.

Another consideration are the passages in which Paul said that "they that commit such things shall not inherit eternal life." Galatians 5 comes to mind among others. If one practices these sins then we have a decision to make; because their current destiny is apart from inheritance of the Kingdom. Were they never saved if they were to die in that condition? This is not a new saying for Paul because he says in Gal. 5;21 that he had told the people this before. He has made it clear to them. So are we willing to suggest that if a person 'commits such things' that they were never truly saved? Just asking. No harm...

Robert and others I want to thank you for this dialog. It has been very respectful and edifying to me and I hope to you as well.

Yes. I always hope that at some point I will see something differently that puts another piece in the puzzle. We are very close on our views, I think.

The story of the shipwreck is an awesome one. I would recommend G.W. North [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=6974]The SHIPWRECK. [/url] It has been a great source of insight for me.

Robert,

I struggle with those verses in Hebrews because they appear to suggest losing ones salvation is possible, but I know of so many more scriptures that say it is impossible. I submit the following article from CARM.org that I feel sums up my feelings on this discussion.

http://www.carm.org/questions/lose_salvation.htm

Can the Believer Lose His Salvation?
This question often comes up in discussions among Christians and there is a healthy debate on whether or not it is possible to lose your salvation. The question and the answer are important because they can affect your relationship with God. For example, if someone believes that he can lose his salvation then he might fall into the error of trying to keep his salvation by what he does. This is a serious error (Gal. 3:1-3). On the other hand, if he believed he could not lose his salvation then, he might fall into the error of sinning willfully because he believes it can’t be lost no matter how much he sins. This also is very wrong (Rom. 6:1-2,11-12). The proper understanding of salvation is that works play no part in it (Rom. 4:5), that it is a free gift (Rom. 6:23), and that it is received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Once we are saved we are to live a holy life (1 Thess. 4:7).
Fortunately whether you believe you can or cannot lose your salvation does not affect your salvation. That is, your salvation is dependent upon accepting Jesus as Savior, trusting in His sin sacrifice, and looking to no one and nothing else. Your salvation isn’t dependent upon whether or not you think it is possible to lose your salvation.
The important point is that you have studied the Word of God and are convinced in your own mind of what you believe (Rom. 14:5). You are the one who has to answer to God (Rom. 3:19). You are the one who needs to study to show yourself approved (2 Tim. 2:15).
There are on the surface good verses for both sides of the argument. There are verses that seem to suggest that it is possible to lose your salvation: 2 Pet. 2:1; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 10:26; 6:4_6; Ps. 69:28, and there are also verses that seem to say you cannot lose your salvation: John 10:27_28; Heb. 13:5; Matt. 7:21_23; 1 John 2:19; Rom. 8:38_39. But if there are verses used to support both sides, then is there a contradiction in the Word of God? Of course not. There can be no contradiction in the inspired Word of God, only in our uninspired misunderstanding.
It is my opinion, and I stress opinion, that it is not possible to lose one’s salvation. I base this on scriptures that seem to have a more "eternal" perspective on them. For example, on the day of judgment when some seek salvation based upon their works Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23). They were never known, that is, they were never saved although they appeared, from the human perspective, to be saved. Jesus says that His sheep will "never perish but have eternal life" (John 10:28). How can eternal life be eternal if it can be lost particularly when Jesus said that they will never perish. If they will never perish, then they can't lose their salvation. Also, Paul says that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God (Rom. 8:38-39). I see these "divine perspective" type verses as giving us glimpses into the viewpoint of God. I see the other verses as being stated from a human perspective, that they appeared to be saved and then appeared to lose it (Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6). However, 1 John 2:19 says in dealing with antichrists, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us," (NASB). I see this verse saying two things: First, that if it appears that false teachers leave because they are not regenerated to begin with. In other words, if someone had salvation and then lost it, it was because they never were saved in the first place. Second, it says that if someone is saved, they will remain in the faith.
Nevertheless, there are different positions on this issue. One position states that it is possible to lose your salvation, but only if you want to. In other words, having been set free from sin, the person is then able by an act of will to deny the Lord and desire not to be a part of Him any longer.
Another position states that it is possible to lose your salvation if you sin too much. Then you need to go and confess your sin and get saved again. This has obvious problems because it could lead to someone trusting in his works and God’s grace to be saved.
Another position states that it is not possible at all to lose your salvation, that because Jesus has redeemed you and you are a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17) you cannot, then, turn your back on God. Since attaining salvation did not depend on anything you did, keeping it does not depend on anything you do, then also, losing it can’t occur because of anything you do.
Unfortunately, this topic has caused far too much friction in the church today. My hope is that people who disagree, can learn to live harmoniously with their eyes on Jesus.