What's wrong with Wagner?

I'm just wondering, I've had people say that Christians shouldn't listen to Wagner, but why is that? They never could give me a real answer they just told me that is what someone else told them. :-(

If he was into something wrong I'd like to know that, but no ones told me.

Thanks!

Jordan

Wagner is part of the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation). The basic error in the restoration thought is that certain 5-fold 'offices' (a phrase coined over 20 years ago), have gone missing and must be 'restored' and/or are now reappearing.

Which begs the question, "was the church defficient for the past two milenium??" Was the church of Jesus Christ incapeable of carrying on due to a missing component? Of course not, It's a bunch of silliness.

In short, Wagner emphasises the need for an Apolstolic Reformation, that the local church has been insuffient for the ast 2 thousand years because it hasn't honored "the five-fold ministry". He claims the church should be governed by Apostolic oversight, as opposed to Pastoral oversight. It's simply a hang-up on terminology and is another way of distracting the church from its primary objective... that of evangelizing the lost. Whether we call the man a Pastor or Apostle, so what?

Traditional Christendom teaches that the role of Apostle was only given to the twelve apostles, that the function is no longer required because the church has been established throughout the globe.

Certain theologies related to this teaching is known as "The Third Wave", Dominion Theology, and Kingdom Now Theology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/newapostolic.html

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/thirdwaveteachings.html

I've had people say that Christians shouldn't listen to Wagner

Are you refering to Richard Wagner, the German composer?

This thread reminded me of my first post at SI (apart from my introduction) called "3 divergent movements within the church."

Here is a brief description I had written (2 years ago?) on the New Apostolic Reformation.

The Apostolic Reformation: The loose formation of apostolic networks all over the world in Asia, Latin America, Africa and the United States, which desire to be God’s "new wineskins" for what used to be denominations. At the core of this idea is that God is restoring the office of Apostle in every literal sense minus the penning of new scripture. Along with prophets, these leaders become the foundation of the church.

"Vertical" apostles are over several churches and "horizonal" apostles postion themselves as guides to other apostles. It should be noted that all of this sounds much more authoritative then it could be---these structures currently just function as friendly peer groups.

The pastor, rather then being an employee of the church, leads almost unilaterally with majority descretion of the budget. Megachurches are regarded as the flagship vessels, where most of the senior apostolic talent will be raised up. Money and modernity are talked about openly and directly as pragmatic solutions for advancing God's kingdom.

The chief virtue of the Apostolic Reformation is that the church, through nimble Godly leadership, can mobilize people and resources faster, without bureaucracy to fullfill it's prophetic mandate.

For more info read C.Peter Wagner's "Churchquake", regarded as an essential guidebook for the movement."

[url=http://www.globalharvest.org/]C. P. Wagner[/url]

MC

It's funny - I just read something last week about Richard Wagner (the composer who wrote the Flight of the Valkyries and Sigfried Idyll) and how he was Adolf Hitler's favorite composer, and how loudspeakers would blast his militant music during Nazi rallies. I was reading how someone determined that there were anti-semetic undertones in the music and that Christians would defile themselves by listening to it.

You can imagine my initial confusion reading this thread!

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[color=6600FF]Having read the above verses I would have to say that these offices are still needed in the church. We have not exhausted the need to raise up those for the perfecting of the saints or the work of the ministry. Nor have we all come into the Eph. 4:13 fulness. I don't think it is right to assume that these offices are no longer being raised up by God. I don't think you have to add a title to someone but if we still have pastors and teachers and evangelists what is the matter with the other offices? [/color]

Also we need to be careful that we don't run down someone's ministry because we might be working against God if He indeed established that ministry.

We may find out in the final outcome that they stand before God with more rewards than we do. Maybe they showed more mercy or love. God might be more pleased with that than their theology on apostles or prophets and fivefold ministry. We need to be very careful not to pass judgment on a fellow believer and if we do we need to have the exact information that proves they are in error to back it up, not just some vague thing about where they are off.

Every one of us if we continue to write long enough, even on this forum, will have our turn at being off or in error. We know in part, later we will know what we missed. I don't want to say of anyone on this forum, don't listen them because they are off. Each part of the body has something of value to the rest. Chris might know more about love than others, TJ about the salvation message. When we put all the parts together we get a clearer picture of the whole. We need to be careful not to accuse the brethern about these kinds of doctrinal issues. Now if C.P. Wagner was denying the essentials of our faith, the virgin birth, salvation through the blood, the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, etc. that is a differnt issue, but to write him off because he teaches a restoration of the fivefold ministry isn't wise. We might be standing in opposition to God.

Now if C.P. Wagner was denying the essentials of our faith, the virgin birth, salvation through the blood, the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, etc. that is a differnt issue, but to write him off because he teaches a restoration of the fivefold ministry isn't wise.

I agree. In this day and age it seems too easy to get 'trigger-happy."

Yet, I do think it's worth noting the discussion over Wagner is not over his basic belief in the '5-fold' ministry, which in our present day is finding different expressions in the local church. Instead, it is Wagners specific formula for apostolic authority whereby multiple churches across many cities participate and submit to a hierarchial and autocratic chain of command. (By specific formula I meant not only spiritual warfare 'techniques' such as 'mapping' but also ideas for organizational structures.)

Wagner reads "...God's household, having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" to mean he and contemporary apostles/prophets like him are the foundation for today's functioning Church. This perspective I believe, is probably the kernel of any controversy.

Blessings,

MC

Ultimately I have to also confess that my own skepticism is from personal experience with a church that was attempting to enter into an "apostolic network." Our pastor was the 'lead apostle' over about 20 other churches...there were a few vertical apostles and a some more horizontal apostles. It wasn't something they talked about too much in the normal church community...only the leadership really knew that much about it.

For the independent church, it had some good features such as shared retirement planning and legal help for pastors. Yet it also so completely fused the spiritual oversight of the church to the administrative government of the church that eventaully I felt these churches became too personality driven.It's worth noting that this single leader focus is not viewed as a weakness to Wagner but a strength. He made no bones about saying that a successful pastor needs a 'dynamic and charismatic' personality. (By charismatic he does not mean strong in 'charisma' but strong in appeal.)

Well in our case, this pinning of all spiritual and administrative authority essentially on one man, ultimately proved disasterous.

I once was talking to a good friend supportive of Wagner, who was planning on meeting him. He asked me what I thought about his ideas. I said, "I'm not really the right guy to discuss the New Apostolic Reformation...after what has happened to our church." He replied, "Maybe you are the right guy."

Hmmm...

You know, if we spend anytime at all reading the ante-nicene church leaders we can see that there was a strong sense of hierarchy early in the church. Men like Polycarp and Ignatius were adressing the same churches that Paul had written to a generation or two earlier.

Yet today, it seems such a thing can't work. Maybe it's a reflection of our fragmented self-interested society. Maybe in other countries, other cultures, there are strong unified churches in cities. However, in our present day it seems that you can't have elevated men in the church...no one is humble enough to lay down their lives for such a calling. In the end the modern character proves to be too weak even in our most revered leaders, and invariably they succumb to materialistic and sensual excesses to the shame of all of us. And so we learn to mistrust men with great authority.

Maybe in prison there would be the ancient unity.

MC

What many people fail to realize is that there are 2 types of Apostles. First, there are the 12 which were the first and they will never be again. The 12 came in contact physically with Jesus Christ and they play a very special role in the initiation of the church in Acts.

Then the second type of Apostle is the one SENT by the church to bring the Gospel out to new areas. This of course is done AFTER Christ's death. Look at Apostle Paul for one. Christians today believe that the only apostles were the 12. An apostle is just as important as a prophet, pastor, evangelist and teacher. Otherwise why would have Paul written that in Ephesians 4:11?

I think it should be clarified that the problem with all this is not so much Wagner's assertion that the apostolic role needs to be recognized, that is debateable. The problem is with the term "Reformation" and his assertion that an essential component of church leadership has been non-existent for the past 2000 years. As if to insinuate that he has been assigned the task of restoring something that only God Himself could be responsible for directing. Did God see fit to remove the role with the passing of the original apostles? I don't know. If not, then it has continued, weather recognized or not. A man cannot build the kingdom... Unless the Lord build the house, the people labor in vain.

The problem is, who is to say who the apostle is today? Now we have men who are trying to set themselves up as an authority over local churches in their own cities because they are self-proclaimed apostles and want to have a voice. I really struggle with any pastor who coins himself as "the pastor of my city" which has become a common phrase as a result of Wagners teaching. We have these new apostolic "City Churches" who believe they ave been called to oversee "the Church" in general in their city. It undermines the autonomy and authenticity of the local church and the authorities each local church are subject to in their own denominations. Each denomination has it's own church government, and within that gov't there could very well be men who demonstrate the riole of an apostle within their own circle.

On another note, there are church leaders who have gained respect and noteriety from many denominations and church leaders, perhaps the Lord has used them in an apostolic role, but to declare the church has been missing a vital and necessary role and needs reformation on those grounds, seems to imply that the gates of hell have prevailed in some way.

Good Grief! I was talking about the composer.:-D C.S. Lewis liked him a lot, but I've had several people tell me not to listen to him. I was just wondering if anyone knew something about jis music that was bad. :-P

Sorry about the confusion!

JOrdan

HomeFree89 wrote:
Good Grief! I was talking about the composer.:-D C.S. Lewis liked him a lot, but I've had several people tell me not to listen to him. I was just wondering if anyone knew something about jis music that was bad. :-P

Sorry about the confusion!

JOrdan

LOL! :lol:

duped post deleted

C.S. Lewis liked him a lot, but I've had several people tell me not to listen to him

That's it. I quit. :-P

You actually meant Wagner the composer? You had people tell you not to listen to Richard Wagner? If Elmer Fudd sings it how bad can it be? (Kill the wabbit! Kill the wabbit!)

MC

Did anyone read my earlier post (about the composer) and the so-called anti-semetic undercurrents to his music?

If he was into something wrong I'd like to know that, but no ones told me.

I think this is the part that made it sound like you meant Peter Wagner. I'm sure any secular musician is into something wrong... sin. Not to mention he's a child of the devil until he is born of God. So why even ask? It's like asking if there's any reason not to listen to Britney Spears or Emenen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner#Wagner.27s_influence_and_legacy

Yet, I do think it's worth noting the discussion over Wagner is not over his basic belief in the '5-fold' ministry, which in our present day is finding different expressions in the local church. Instead, it is Wagners specific formula for apostolic authority whereby multiple churches across many cities participate and submit to a [b]hierarchial and autocratic chain of command. [/b](By specific formula I meant not only spiritual warfare 'techniques' such as 'mapping' but also ideas for organizational structures.)

Wagner reads "...God's household, having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" to mean he and contemporary apostles/prophets like him are the foundation for today's functioning Church. This perspective I believe, is probably the kernel of any controversy.

This is exactly the issue. What Wagner and New Apostolic Reformation teams/networks are doing is essentially trying to replace contemporary denominational hierarchical structures with their own.

Instead of having territorial bishops over a region, they are instead simply replacing what we would usually call bishops in most denominations, and call them apostles instead. It's essentially the same episcopal church structure with modern-day apostles inserted into it. They are essentially just keeping a lot of the old traditional structures, but calling the folks up the ranks apostles instead.

It's the same old worldly mess. There is no real reformation about it. It's just a change of titles really. But the thing that scares me about this movement that makes it false is that the leaders of it seem very power hungry. They also buy into the entire mega-church/superstar mentality. They want the best of the charismatic world with the best of the church growth world.

These "apostles" are nothing of the true variety. True apostles don't sit on top of a hierarchy. They are co-laborers with the rest of the body of Christ. They are there to serve, not rule. They are there to equip, not suck dry. They are the scum of the earth, not superstars.

Dear KingJimmy,

First of all I know this thread has changed from what it was originally started as.

I just wonder where you get this information from. I have read some of the things by C.P. Wagner and saw nothing like what you are talking about. I don't see him trying to take over churches. Where did you get that from?

I believe we need apostles in our day. Whether C.P. Wagner is one or not I don't know. However I will tell you one I believe to be a modern day apostle, even though he would never call himself that, Art Katz. The wisdom and authority that comes forth from him takes your breath away.

I feel many of these men do go around to various churches but not for the purpose of taking them over, but just to strengthen the churches to advance the kingdom. When I went to see Art Katz he spoke a very strong word to the fellowship he was at, but you could tell that they were open to receiving correction. This was not usurping authority or taking over, it was just building up the body so it could continue to advance.

I would like to see the place where Wagner is doing what you said?

I've had people say that Christians shouldn't listen to Wagner, but why is that? They never could give me a real answer they just told me that is what someone else told them.

If he was into something wrong I'd like to know that, but no ones told me.

Isn’t it amazing how “information” gets passed on through Christendom – all based on total ignorance! I say this: If you have nothing to say about someone than don’t.
Actually, I found a few comments about the musician on the net that might raise your curiosity.
Richard Wagner (1813-1883) who regarded himself as "the most German of men", "the German spirit" is not only known because of his 13 operas and numerous other compositions but also because of his inevitable influence on our understanding of German culture and history. He has been classified as an anarchist and a socialist and, simultaneously, as a proto-fascist and nationalist, as a vegetarian and an antisemite... In fact, his name has appeared in connection to almost all major trends in German history of the 19th and 20th centuries…. [url=http://users.utu.fi/hansalmi/wagner.html]Richard Wagner[/url]

There is plenty of information on the net. The mystical influence of his music is also of interest.

BTW, I wonder if the two Wagner’s are related... just throwing out tempting kindling for more speculation...

Diane

maybe they are related to Robert Wagner

I heard Hitler loved hot chocolate too. Especially Swiss Miss! I will no longer partake of hot chocolate

I wonder if you've ever seen a Swiss Miss box with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Judenthum_in_der_Musik]this[/url] written on the back. If so, I can see why it would be one Hitler's favorite brands.

Brother Paul

My only point was that if we are bringing an accusation against a brother it better be because we have first hand knowledge of the error, not because somebody somewhere said something. If we do find an error then the Bible pattern should be followed, first go and tell him is error between just the two of you. If he won't listen take another and if that doesn't work take those in authority with you.

I see it this way. I know a young man that had a chinese restaurant. Someone started a rumour that he had cockroaches in his restuarant. The person who spread it was told that by someone who was mad at this fellow. He had proper pest control coming into his business regularly, however this rumour hurt his business and eventually he went out of business. The person who spread the rumour had never even eaten there, it just seemed like entertaining conversation.

We need to be careful to build up and not tear down with our words. That is all I'm saying. I have no problem with standing against an error in doctrine, like for instance my soap box is the prosperity doctrine. However I try not to put a name to it because I could do more damage than good.

Thanks everyone! It has been interesting reading about both Wagners. :-P

Jordan

It has been interesting reading about both Wagners. :-P

I'm just glad you didn't ask about "Jones" or "Smith." We might be here all week! :-D

MC

Hilarious!

Hey, you’re not finished yet, HF! What about that rumor you heard:

Christians shouldn't listen to Wagner,

So, is that right?? Is Wagner's music going to harm you? How? How much of it? Every tune? Are you now going to check it out and see if this is true?

That reminds me of a story a minister told me: The ministerial in his town (many years ago) was deeply concerned about a show at the local theatre. So they put an article in the paper, warning people not to attend because it was bad. Guess what happened? ......

You are right! Ticket sales skyrocketed!
I guess people were eager to know if what they read was true.

Diane

I think that the real issue, even though I don't even know who Richar Wagner is, is what fellowship hath light with darkness. What is the reason for listening to him if it doesn't feed your spirit, which it can't. I don't know everything about him by there is a composer named Tim Janis that is featured on QVC quite frequently. His music is gorgeous. I emailed him and asked him where he got his inspiration from and he said from God. He looks out over the Atlantic Ocean from his home and the beauty and God inspire him. He also said he was planning a worship album, but to me his music is already worshipfull.

I don't see anything sinful about great sounding music, however, what is our goal? To feel good or to draw closer to God? There is plenty of music that can draw us closer to our source. I would also say if the music you are listening to does draw you close to Jesus for you it is good.

roadsign wrote:
"Hey, you’re not finished yet, HF! What about that rumor you heard:

Christians shouldn't listen to Wagner,

So, is that right?? Is Wagner's music going to harm you? How? How much of it? Every tune? Are you now going to check it out and see if this is true?"

I'm praying about that. You can find bad things about anyone on the web, but does that mean I totally disregard the thing about about Wagner?

And if God is not behind Wagner's music then what is? If his music is based on racism and the occult then is it edifying for a Christian to listen to?

Jordan

Okay, so, being that my husband and I are both classical musicians, I thought we aught to at least make an effort to answer your questions with some degree of intelligence. It just so happens that neither of us have much to offer, as Wagner tends to be on the low end of interest amongst classical musicians. I'm sure you can understand why when you read his history. I did try listening to a critique of one of his works on the BBC but fell asleep during the discussion about chord modulations (or lack there-of). Great help I am!

Now in our parts we have been snowed in for almost a week, and no end is in sight. Roads and schools closed….. Fun...…More storms coming..

So I thought I’d email my musician friend who is likely going squirly by now cooped up at home, and ask him your question. If I get any helpful replies, I’ll post them. Okay?
Be ready for an in-depth explanation.

Diane

roadsign wrote:
Okay, so, being that my husband and I are both classical musicians, I thought we aught to at least make an effort to answer your questions with some degree of intelligence. It just so happens that neither of us have much to offer, as Wagner tends to be on the low end of interest amongst classical musicians. I'm sure you can understand why when you read his history. I did try listening to a critique of one of his works on the BBC but fell asleep during the discussion about chord modulations (or lack there-of). Great help I am!

Now in our parts we have been snowed in for almost a week, and no end is in sight. Roads and schools closed….. Fun...…More storms coming..

So I thought I’d email my musician friend who is likely going squirly by now cooped up at home, and ask him your question. If I get any helpful replies, I’ll post them. Okay?
Be ready for an in-depth explanation.

Diane

Okay, thanks! Jordan :-D

Hey, I've listened to some Wagner in the past while I was studying classical guitar at the Boston Conservatory and I'll say his musical dramas are pretty incredible. There is actually a kind of Wagnercult, and he is admired by his connoisseurs just as profusely as Mozart and Beethoven are admired by theirs. As a matter of fact, his work [i]The Ring[/i] is generally considered to be the greatest musical drama ever written. That crazy Bavarian King Ludwig who built Cinderella'a castle on that cliff in the clouds (you all know who I am talking about - the calendar castle) was totally infatuated with Wagner, and had murals from Wagnerian dramas painted all over interior walls.

Wagner had, and still has, a huge impact and following and he's still tremendously revered at Conservatory level. It's interesting that each major composer has had his own little group of worshippers (i.e. Mozart, Mahler, Bruckner, Dvorak, Beethoven, Shostakovich, Brahms), and all of these composers venerated J.S. Bach with the same intensity their followers paid them! Wagner called Bach, "the most stupendous miracle in all of music." Now, my only qualm with Wagner is why settle for the the valkyrian clouds when you can soar the galaxy and be edified with musical sublimity unsurpassed in the name of Jesus Christ?

Brother Paul

Here's my friend's reply. Do read to the end!

As to your question: that depends on who's doing the listening and how well is one armed spiritually. I've no problem whatsoever listening to Wagner, and I've known (and known of) other Christians who've been able to do the same with no ill-effects; however, it's critical NOT to go along with the message his libretti express as enough times it can tend towards anti-Christianity in some of his works ("Tristan und Isolde" as well as the "Ring" cycle). Furthermore, it's important to separate the man from his music at least to some extent: he was personally quite bad - even evil!!! - as a philanderer, money-cheat and a polemicist that said some horrendous things (e.g., about Jewry, though his attitude was shared by enough people - and it didn't stop him from having the great Hebrew conductor Hermann Levi première his last work "Parsifal" {quite Christian, that last opera of his, and which also tends to the oratorio as well...}, even though he didn't get his wish to have Herr-Meister Levi undergo baptism...).

[The height of his adultery/fornication was when he seduced his 2nd wife Cosima {Franz Liszt's daughter} away from her 1st husband Hans von Bülow - one of Wagner's great friends who had conducted the première of "Tristan und Isolde" and cuckolded him with his three children being born while she was still married to her 1st husband!] If one just can't stay away from the message of those libretti (which the music explores and intensifies in great depth!!) - worse yet, if one accepts the message!

it can then be every bit as dangerous as some of the rap and other lyrics out there that glorify death and other things in such an evil way. Those who fall into such a category are best-advised not to tackle him and his music until they have matured enough to know better than to accept those undesirable parts of his philosophical message.

On the other hand, FAR be it from me to generally discourage people from listening and studying his music (or anybody else's music when it's worthy - enough works would have to be eliminated otherwise, and not only his...): there's an enormous amount to learn from it in plenty of other respects (especially as a musician and/or artist generally)!!!

EDIT: Following this message my friend phoned me and gave me a Wagner mini-piano concert by phone. (He's a genius) It was great music. I must admit, that in MY circles Wagner doesn't get performed very often - because most of his work is opera and requires large forces. But Wagner is indeed very much in the repoertoire. If he was forgotten there wouldn't be so much controversy over his music.

The entire Ring cycle was performed recently in Toronto - at the opening of the new Opera House.
Diane

Act 1:21 Therefore, it is right that one of these men who have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us,
Act 1:22 beginning from the baptism of John to that same day that He was taken up from us, to become a witness with us of His resurrection.

I don't think there is anyone alive today that meets these qualifications.

Blessings Greg