Concerning righteousness which is by faith

Romans 3:21-24 (NASB)
21 But now apart from the Law [to those who never heard there was one, Gentiles] the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God *through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; [because] all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Being justified [is] a gift by/of His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; {emphasis mine]

*We are brought into salvation by the gift of God's Grace. The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation, by his faith in God. Redemption for the righteous man, both in the OT and NT is nevertheless still by Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:16,17 (NASB)

16 "............ it, [the cross of Jesus Christ] is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes [in God unto righteousness], to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it [Grace] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man [found anywhere in the world] SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." [all emphasis mine]

Romans 9:30-32 (NIV)
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, [without any knowledge of Christ] who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith [theirs]; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Romans 5:1-2 (NASB)
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we [all righteous men] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we [in this present time] have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Obviously I am not writing this for anyone locked in tulip however, I sincerely hope it will be helpful to anyone who can't put the pieces together regardless of/or because of tulip.

John173 wrote:
Ormly,

Is there a question here? And what does Hollands favorite flower have to do with it? :-)

Actually, I purposely avoid the Cal/Arm bickering so I really don't understand what the tulip reference means.

And I would like to. Hence, the hint.

Certainly some interesting inserts on your part. I would probably have used something different if I had attempted to do the same.

Why don't you do it? It's a subject that needs better resolution than what we are given to accept, by more scholarly definers.

This is not to say I have any strong disagreements. I have long believed that the OT saints had a prophetic understanding of redemption and were granted a pre-cross salvation,

But I am not here speaking of OT saints. Perhaps it would have been better for me to write "OT time frame".

..... in the same way that God calls those things that are not as though they are (such as our positional righteousness, even though in reference to time we are not yet perfected and are still capable of stumbling).This is because, in God's economy it IS a done deal, as He stands outside of time and sees the beginning from the end and back again.

Then why call it pre-cross if, in His economy, everything is present tense? Can you see my point? And indeed that was so except for righteous man who died not having had the consequence of the sin of Adam dealt with. Ergo, he unavoidably, died in his sin.... but not unto distruction because we know he went to Paradise.

One more thought: If salvation is merely granted that would make it seem to be, somewhat, acquiesing and although, for time to time, God has done that in dealing with man, it never accomplished in man what God would ultimately have of him. When speaking of God's salvation for man, God's character demands and grants along very narrow, but all so absolute, lines; He can't violate His Character/Nature. Therefore if the criteria is met He cannot refuse to grant. If, on that basis man comes to righteousness on his own, simply through believing and acting on that belief unto an acceptable righteousness in Him, [and I mean to God by any name] God must, on that account receive him however, this could never mean being received into His presence for the pre-cross righteous. One might say, that is a absolute that can't be changed or else God wouldn't be God. Of course, the converse of this, is equally true.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Doug.

rowdy2 wrote:
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
Great Post; Thanks Eddie

Can you eleborate alittle more on that, Eddie? I'd like to be sure I am seeing what I believe you are inferring. Thanks.

I guess all of what you say is ok however, communion can only be between intimates. Many have it in their thinking that it is some kind of dispensing of grace or even salvation. That is error. I hope you can see that without an argument back.

And to His disciples Paul said:

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 1 Corinthians 11:26-30 (KJV)

Ormly said

*We are brought into salvation by the gift of God's Grace. The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation, by his faith in God. Redemption for the righteous man, both in the OT and NT is nevertheless still by Jesus Christ.

John 16 (Young's Literal)
7 `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;

8 and having come, [b]He will convict the world concerning sin[/b], and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment;

9 [b]concerning sin indeed, [u]because they do not believe in me[/u][/b];

10 and concerning righteousness, because unto my Father I go away, and no more do ye behold me;

11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world hath been judged.

Or, with Paul's in Romans 10
9 that [b]if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved[/b],

10 for with the heart doth [one] believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation;

11 for the Writing saith, `Every one who is believing on him shall not be ashamed,'

12 for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all [is] rich to all those calling upon Him,

13 for every one--whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'

Also, remember that it was not Abraham's faith in God [i]per se[/i] which was credited to him as righteousness, but, that he was obedient to what God told him to [i]do[/i]. Abraham had faith in God's [i]word[/i] to him.

We are invited by God to have faith in what [i]He[/i] has done [i]for us[/i].

dorcas wrote:

Ormly said

*We are brought into salvation by the gift of God's Grace. The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation, by his faith in God. Redemption for the righteous man, both in the OT and NT is nevertheless still by Jesus Christ.

I don't believe this statement is compatible with Christ's own words:

John 16 (Young's Literal)
7 `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;

8 and having come, [b]He will convict the world concerning sin[/b], and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment;

9 [b]concerning sin indeed, [u]because they do not believe in me[/u][/b];

10 and concerning righteousness, because unto my Father I go away, and no more do ye behold me;

11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world hath been judged.

Or, with Paul's in Romans 10
9 that [b]if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved[/b],

10 for with the heart doth [one] believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation;

11 for the Writing saith, `Every one who is believing on him shall not be ashamed,'

12 for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all [is] rich to all those calling upon Him,

13 for every one--whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'

Also, remember that it was not Abraham's faith in God [i]per se[/i] which was credited to him as righteousness, but, that he was obedient to what God told him to [i]do[/i]. Abraham had faith in God's [i]word[/i] to him.

We are invited by God to have faith in what [i]He[/i] has done [i]for us[/i].

Right. You are totally out of context therefore you are not, nor can you make proper distinctions. This is just another way of saying your not properly dividing the word of God.

Hi Ormly,

I'm not sure how my challenge to a section of your opening post, can be 'totally out of context'.

Also, can justify the core thought you propose

[color=000099]'The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ [b]is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation[/b], by his faith in God.'[/color]

with supporting scripture? Or the statement cannot stand as one of [u]eternal truth[/u].

The main difficulty I have with what you are saying, is that a man can be righteous [i]enough[/i], without having taken upon himself, the righteousness of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1 (KJV)
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Until people have heard and believed in the true God they are calling on idols. How shall they believe if they have not heard? Is not the gospel necessary for salvation?

Salvation is a heart issue, not a head issue.

If I realize there is God and live righteously believing in that God, though I know not his name, am I damned? Doesn't the Blood of Jesus Chtist not apply to me; make peace for me in my behalf because I am living a righteous life as best I can with what little knowledge I possess about there even being a God? BTW, I am held accountable for whatever knowledge I may possess of Him.... unto a righteousness.

Jesus never told the Disciples to go into all the world and get people saved. He told them to make disciples of the nations. Think about that part of it before replying to say, I am wrong.

dorcas wrote:

Hi Ormly,

I'm not sure how my challenge to a section of your opening post, can be 'totally out of context'.

Also, can justify the core thought you propose

[color=000099]'The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ [b]is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation[/b], by his faith in God.'[/color]

with supporting scripture? Or the statement cannot stand as one of [u]eternal truth[/u].

The main difficulty I have with what you are saying, is that a man can be righteous [i]enough[/i], without having taken upon himself, the righteousness of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1 (KJV)
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Man doesn't take upon himself the righteousness of Christ for the sin of Adam he had nothing to do with. The crucified Jesus presented Himself, on man's behalf, to the Father in regards to that which brought reconcilation, which only He could accomplish. "It is Finished", I believe were His words..

Having said that, regenerated man is now to take the righteousness of Son of God. Gal. 2.20 should explain that better than I can.

InTheLight wrote:

Salvation is a heart issue, not a head issue.

This sounds spiritual but it is not true. It requires both, for how can the heart truly believe in what the mind is not convinced of?

In Christ,

Ron

However, ultimately it is a heart issue, correct?

John 12:40 (KJV)
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

andres wrote:
"I'm not really all that wise on these kind of things so what is a really good biblical answer to these questions if I'm an unsaved person?"
well lets look at scripture..
Let see why a person is judged and condemed to hell. Rom 2.13 ("For not the hears of the law are just before God but the doers of the law shall be justified") The reason a person goes to hell is because he breaks GOD'S HOLY LAW. not becuase he is born in a certain country or comes from a certain back ground. Now the only way a man could get into heaven is if he never broke God's law(10 commendments) then he would be considerd right with God. Now God's law has been given to every creature in the world Please read romans 2.13-15. but there is a big problem...all the world is guilty before God and none are right with God. Read Rom 3.10-20

Please place your last in proper context because David was a man after God's heart. Don't assume that God gave him one so that it could be one. That doesn't compute. Read psalm 14,53. David was speaking of certain conditions he was referring to when crying out to God. Define those conditions and you will see why God rescued and why God enslaved and why God even punished the enslavers. In none of this were men robots except to their "self" natures they loved more than they feared God. God they feared until their bellies were filled and the goodtimes rolled. Then they would forget God and go the own way once again, to their own destruction.

JayHil wrote:
So what are we asking here? If I am born in a "Christian" nation to "Christian" parents, and I recieve Christ as my savior, doesn't it seem that I have a slight advantage at getting to heaven over someone who is born in a muslim nation to muslim parents? If I was to switch places with that person who is to say I wouldn't be on the outside looking in?
So the question is if there is a muslim man who loves his wife, takes care of the poor, and has a love for God, but has never heard of Jesus before, get thrown into hell?

My understanding of the scriptures tells me, no.

And if a man grows up in this country and recieves Jesus as his personal Savior(perhaps several times), but doesn't really love his wife, the poor, and has a difficult time following God(with all his heart, soul and strength) get into heaven?

I am compelled to say, I don't know..... but neither would I want to be in his shoes in that day when all stand before Christ, to give an account.
Much of the reason for this man's condition is because of an incomplete message of the gospel preached, even wrong would not be an over "the top", criticism. The complete message of the gospel is for bringing son's unto the Father....not just "saved" folk who don't know Him to love Him, as He desires --no! commands-- we do. That's from revelation of Him and no other way can it be accomplished.
If I said you can build a solid foundation on a crooked footing, what would that mean/say to you?

I'm not really all that wise on these kind of things so what is a really good biblical answer to these questions if I'm an unsaved person?

Thanks for the sincerity of your questions in this. They are two good ones that need to addressed but from scripture only and not from pre-programed pat answers offered up by man's reasoning, most of which we have lived with for too many years.

Here's something that I saw and wrote out when pondering some of what you have asked:

01-2006 The Lord Jesus Christ is the first and the last. We were in Him at the first and will be in Him at the last. Between the first and the last we are in the world to become [a son]. The first and the last, He is responsible. The in-between is our responsibility. It is given to us to become as He was in His flesh. Without a vision of the last, we will not become that which is purposed by the Father. The vision of the last is implanted in us from the first. A revelation of the first, the Christ of Glory, brings the vision of the last that will sustain the in-between... which is now. The vision is the understanding of His Grace; the overflowing of His Nature.

InTheLight wrote:

However, ultimately it is a heart issue, correct? John 12:40 (KJV) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Again, it requires both.

You still haven't dealt with how your position can be reconciled with Romans 10. Is the gospel necessary for salvation or not?

Sure I have. You just don't see it yet.

Also, how does your position reconcile with these verses?
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
(Act 17:30-31)

What does the word repent mean except to change direction? Certainly it can mean, if you don't hell's fire awaits you. But lets assume for sake of discussing this that these are righteous folk being addressed here and God, because of their ignorance/incomplete knowledge, could only wink at their hearts condition concerning a couple of issues that included marriage.

Clearly the heart and soul of the repentance message is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing about Christ.

Now it does for sure, but back then? Can't you see that is the reason for God "winking"?

Define salvation as Paul speaks of it after one is born again .... for that matter after one is saved.

Peace,,Orm

InTheLight wrote:

Sure I have. You just don't see it yet.

On that we can agree, I just don't see it. You don't truly engage the point in question and then say, "don't you see it?". I'm baffled by this line of reasoning.

What does the word repent mean except to change direction? Certainly it can mean, if you don't hell's fire awaits you. [b]But lets assume[/b] for sake of discussing this that these are righteous folk being addressed here and God, because of their ignorance/incomplete knowledge, could only wink at their hearts condition concerning a couple of issues that included marriage.

Your assumption is faulty. I would encourage you to read the whole of Acts chapter 17 to get the context. Are you arguing that a people "wholly given to idolatry" were righteous?

In Christ,

Ron

You are baffled and then accuse. That's an oxymoronic remark and says much.

I'm not going to argue with you. I gave you what I have to say in the matter.
If you don't agree with me that's you perogative. It's truth to me and violates nothing of the scripture. If you study them properly you will come to the same conclusion.

InTheLight wrote:

I'm not going to argue with you. I gave you what I have to say in the matter. If you don't agree with me that's you perogative. It's truth to me and violates nothing of the scripture. If you study them properly you will come to the same conclusion.

This is the heart of the problem, you assume a position but refuse to argue it. This is not logical.

No. I refuse to go circular with you or keep responding to your endless questions that will result in "0". All you really wish to do is point out what you believe my error is using canned doctrine. I ain't goin to be drawn into that. Sorry.

JaySaved wrote:
Ormly wrote

We are brought into salvation by the gift of God's Grace. The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation, by his faith in God. Redemption for the righteous man, both in the OT and NT is nevertheless still by Jesus Christ.

This is heretical. You are saying that people are saved by Christ even if they have never heard of Christ. This is bordering on religious pluralism.

No. Are you saying His blood doesn't cover the sins of the righteous in the world who never have the opportunity to receive the gospel of the news of the Kingdom of God? Keep in mind, it is the Blood of Jesus we speak of, not His words that some will never hear who live righteously because of their belief in God, whoever they believe Him to be......and if you can't keep that in mind we will end this discussion.

Ro 1:18 KJV
 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

If that can be said of the unrighteous, what of the righteous?

In the future, if there is to be one, kindly spare me your condension, youngster. I've been where your are.

JaySaved wrote:

Are you saying His blood doesn't cover the sins of the righteous in the world who never have the opportunity to receive the gospel of the news of the Kingdom of God?

This phrase is mind-boggling because you are insinuating that there are righteous people in this world who have never heard the gospel of Christ.

This is not Biblical and is heretical. Yes, the blood of Christ covers the sins of the righteous. But, the blood does not cover an adult who has never heard the gospel.

That's not even heretical, thats ignorance of the knowledge of the blood of Jesus Christ..

You are saying that there are people in this world who are saved but have not heard about Christ. You state that they worship God with the limited knowledge they possess. Can these people be Hindu, Muslim, Mormon, etc.?

Ormly, as your brother in Christ I must tell you that you have strayed from sound doctrine in this thinking.

They can be anything you consider them to be except, unrighteous from God's perspective, the realization of which, you don't seem to have in your knowledge base..

1Jn 2:2KJV
Christ is our advocate..... and theirs.

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

God is the judge of their righteousnes, not you or I.

You might ponder what this verse[s] has to say before going further in your condemnation of me:

Rev 20:12,15 KJV
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ...... And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Works are mentioned here. What works other than works of righteousness covered by the Blood of the Lamb because the Justice of God and His Holiness, gives permission to it?

roaringlamb wrote:
Brother Ormly,
Your views are very dangerous as they seem to negate the Cross of Christ.

For if man is righteous in and of himself, he does not need a Saviour because he can march right up to Heaven and declare his righteousness to God. Scripture does not ever teach this.
I am concerned for you brother as you make fun of others who are really trying to help you see where you have veered from Biblical truth. It seems as if you are unteachable(I hope not), and very proud of your esoteric view of Scripture.
Now allow me a few questions
1) When did you become a Christian? How do you know you are a Christian?

1947.

2) Is the Spirit of God leading you to these conclusions?

Yes. I have an ongoing love affair with the Father
24-7

3) Could you be wrong in your deductions?

No.

I know you ignored my previous post, and that is fine. If you choose to ignore this one also that is ok as well. But I ask you to test your ideas against Scripture alone(all of it), and be careful because even Satan can transform himself into an angel of light.

If you all can't make proper distinctions, there can be no discussion. I'll simply make my remarks and you all can deal with them any way you choose. Words mean somethiong. I really don't believe any of you know how to read ... words that is.

I know who I am and I know my love affair with the Father is a sure foundation.

Grace, the overflowing of the Nature of God and now the Blood of Jesus Christ as the peace maker, both given as gifts to all mankind. Who can it lite upon to make acceptable in the sight of God, except the righteous who see Him and those who have waited in the grave, to be set free. Even those who know not His name. However, the unrighteous, who remain so, never

roaringlamb wrote:
You didn't answer my question about how you know you are a Christian.

Where are you headed with your beliefs?
Do you believe the whole world will be saved?

Your response was not in love brother, but in the same mocking tone that does not bear evidence of the Spirit. Why don't you have anything edifying to add to this conversation?

I answered more than your question, twister of words..and I would offer more if I saw a brother to offer to. I hope you can grasp that as the best you will receive.

PreachParsly wrote:

twister of words..

This is uncalled for. Why are you acting like this?

Why are you acting the way you are? because of my postition on imputed righteousness given to the righteous who never hear of Jesus Christ? Don't argue with me unless you are rightly dividing God's word. Prove me wrong in context of what I am saying. Use good context and you will make proper distictions that make sense. Can you understand that?

This thread should be closed. All I see is bitterness and bickering in this thread. I started reading the first chapter and I couldn't finish reading anymore of the thread, it was starting to make me sick.

All of you including Ormly had good points to say, why can't we pull those good points out of the post and comment on them? We are all going to disagree, someone is bound to disagree for what I am saying.

This thread is like a rabbit running around the tree because he can't find the hole, it's endless jibberish.

Compliments wrote:
This thread should be closed. All I see is bitterness and bickering in this thread. I started reading the first chapter and I couldn't finish reading anymore of the thread, it was starting to make me sick.

All of you including Ormly had good points to say, why can't we pull those good points out of the post and comment on them? We are all going to disagree, someone is bound to disagree for what I am saying.

This thread is like a rabbit running around the tree because he can't find the hole, it's endless jibberish.

EDIT: I was writing this post while the last few were made. I do not post to be contentious with Ormly in particular, but to state the truth of scripture, for all who are reading this thread.

Brother Ormly, while I do not dispute your claim to a love affair with the Father, the extrapolations you make on His behalf, are not supportable by the whole of scripture, far less by the words of Jesus Christ Himself, or, of those who knew Him in the flesh, and received the Holy Spirit in the few years after Pentecost.

We all search out scripture to know better the Father and the Son and to understand what they call us to become, but, the meaning of Christ's death is applied to our lives second by second; it is not a panacea which absolves a man from continuing faith or works by faith, and these both come [i]after[/i] meeting with God in repentance and conscious faith (towards Christ) - not before. EDIT end.

Ormly asked

Who can it lite upon to make acceptable in the sight of God, except the righteous ...?

Under the Old Covenant, the blood was sprinkled on the mercy-seat in the Holy of holies by the High Priest, on the day of Atonement each year.

This completed the sacrifices of the preceding year, and covered the unseen and unseeable sins of the nation.

Under the New Covenant, the blood is, by the Spirit, (sprinkled) applied to the inner life of the believer, cleansing the conscience from all guilt. Sins are not merely [i]covered[/i], they are [b][i]washed away[/i][/b].

Without this, how can any man begin to be righteous in God's eyes?

Hebrews 10
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are [being] sanctified.

15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For [b]if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins[/b],

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

In v 26, we see the other side of Paul's statement in Acts 17 that 'the times of this ignorance, God winked at, but now [b]commandeth[/b] [u]all[/u] men everywhere, to repent.'

Acts 17
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 [b]That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:[/b]

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art [b]and man's device[/b].

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this [matter].

Romans 2, the whole chapter, is also instructive, ending as it does with God's first intention - v 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; [b]whose praise [is] not of men, but of God[/b].

I take this to mean that the believer is commended by God, and this is the commendation which we seek, not the commendation of men.

Dorcas,

Get out of the OT and place yourself in the jungles of South America or outer Mongolia....this century, any century.

PreachParsly wrote:

Why are you acting the way you are? because of my postition on imputed righteousness given to the righteous who never hear of Jesus Christ? Don't argue with me unless you are rightly dividing God's word. Prove me wrong in context of what I am saying. Use good context and you will make proper distictions that make sense. Can you understand that?

I haven't mentioned one thing about your particular doctrine on this thread. I'm not asking about what you believe but how you are acting.

Don't argue with me unless you are rightly dividing God's word.

Your unbelievable. I haven't argued with you about anything.

This is my last post on this thread.

What so unbelieveable? Why don't you ask them why they have so little undersatnding of the scriptures and yet insult me for what they believe is my lack?

roaringlamb wrote:

place yourself in the jungles of South America or outer Mongolia....this century, any century.

What does this have to do with anything we have spoken of?
Would you say that an Inca who worshipped their idea of god was righteous before the true and living God?

Are you prepared to say they aren't? Are you prepared to say you have the mind of God; you can see righteous as He sees it, measure it as He alone can measure it? What did you do the verse I posted from Rev? You make a habit of ignoring things that can prove you faulty of mind..

JaySaved wrote:
roaringlamb wrote:

What does this have to do with anything we have spoken of? Would you say that an Inca who worshipped their idea of god was righteous before the true and living God?

Ormly replied

Are you prepared to say they aren't?

YES!!!!! I am prepared to say they are not because the Bible tells me so. What did Paul tell the Greeks at the Areopagus who 'worshiped the unknown god'? He told them to repent!

BUT THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY SUCH AS PAUL, SENT TO THESE RIGHTEOUS FOLK WHO WORSHIP AN UNKNOWN GOD AS I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO YOU. WANNA GO AND TELL THEM THEY NEED TO REPENT, AS IN GO IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION IN THEIR WORSHIP? I AM SURE MANY OF THEM WOULD BE GLAD TO HEAR OF THE CONCLUSION TO HOPE THAT IS WITHIN THEM WHEN YOU PRESENT THEM WITH THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM. MANY DID ON MARS HILL WHEN PAUL SPOKE TO THEM. WELL, HOW BOUT IT?

JaySaved wrote:
This tells us that the dead will be judged by their works, but most importantly they will be judged by whether or not Christ is within them.

roaringlamb wrote:

Are you prepared to say they aren't?

Yes I am based upon the fact that there is no righteousness apart from Christ, and if that is not imputed to us, then there is no justification.

What Bible you reading , son? Throw that one away and get another one.

You are flatout wrong and unless you read the word accurately you have nothing to offer anyone but fatalism.

roaringlamb wrote:
Ormly here is why it is not righteous people spoken of in the Revelation 20 passage you quoted
Revelation 20:6 [b]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,[/b] but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
These are the righteous ones, then comes thepart you quoted.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

But you must not have seen the next verses
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. [b]This is the second death.[/b]

Question: is that before or after the books are examined.. I mean you just threw in everybody whose name was in the book of life?

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So if the second death has no power over those that are righteous, but these are given over to the second death, they are not the righteous and to say they are is to go against the testimony God has given us in His Word.

Again I ask, is this before the books are examined or not?

roaringlamb wrote:

What Bible you reading , son? Throw that one away and get another one. You are flatout wrong and unless you read the word accurately you have nothing to offer anyone but fatalism.

Though this coversation has been wonderful, I am afraid it must end. There is no fatalism in the True Gospel of Christ, but life, and peace, and hope and I do not know where you think I have a fatalistic view.

True, true. But it is in your version of it...a hand-me-down, of course.

But I understand how you twist threads, and then when noone wants to take your bait, you smugly say within yourself, "I must be right as there are none to debate me."
To that I can only say "examine yourself whther you be in the faith"
I do not wish to question the validity of your salvation, but if it is built upon the theological premises you have espoused, then I fear you are in danger, and would with tears urge you to flee from the wrath to come.
You ormly of course will mock this, as you are so spiritually enlightened, and we are but mere pygmies and dwarfs, yet it was not the giant Goliath who was properly equipped for his end.
May God grant you wisdom, and may His grace lead you into the truths of His word.
I am finished

Do me this favor.... don't pray for me.

BUT THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY SUCH AS PAUL, SENT TO THESE RIGHTEOUS FOLK WHO WORSHIP AN UNKNOWN GOD AS I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO YOU. WANNA GO AND TELL THEM THEY NEED TO REPENT, AS IN GO IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION IN THEIR WORSHIP? I AM SURE MANY OF THEM WOULD BE GLAD TO HEAR OF THE CONCLUSION TO HOPE THAT IS WITHIN THEM WHEN YOU PRESENT THEM WITH THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM. MANY DID ON MARS HILL WHEN PAUL SPOKE TO THEM. WELL, HOW BOUT IT?

The way your speech is coming across in these posts is less then the Christ-like. I would like you to re-examine the reasons you are posting thus and consider to take a break and seek God. I would like you to review also the intial purpose of the forums and community rules:

It is very important to note that you are joining a vibrant community of believers across the entire world. The main reason for the discussion forums being on this site in the first place is for discussions revolving around the audio sermon speakers and the themes and topics they bring up.

The paramount theme of the site is revival! The discussing of the history of revivals and spurning each other onto praying to this end to see a revival across the world is one of the cheif ends of the discussion forums.

It should be noted that the underlying principle in discussions needs to be EDIFICATION. Any discussions that are not in concord with this can be edited or deleted by the Moderators. Also posting of links to other audio sermon materials on other sites from the forums is prohibited also. Please review and understand what the rules are of this website as a member you are expected to obey them. By registering you are agreeing to these rules and stipulations for proper use of this website. MUST READ: SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules...

[b]MUST READ: SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules... [/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14144&forum=13&0

If that is all you see then unsubscribe me.

Brother Ormly,

You are giving very little grace to anyone in this thread. You are accusing people of being absolutely wrong in their whole Scriptural world-view. If you were correct and had more truth then all of us you are then not coming across as a good caretaker of that truth to impart it to others. SermonIndex.net is in agreement with most of the fundamental speakers found on this page: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/

If you take time to listen to some of these "old voices" they will verify the beliefs of many that have posted in this thread that you have stated are absolutely wrong.

I agree with the other brothers that saracism is not a good method (or godly method) to convey truth in a teaching setting. I would encourage you to consider the community rules and if you do think you are better off in another forum community on the web in result of my simply posting these observations then do "private message me" or email me and I can remove your account.

All men that do not [b]repent[/b] and [b]trust[/b] (fully with all their life) in God will not be saved but are "already damned." All moselms have the wrath of God abiding on them all buddists, moral athiests, catholics, etc.

The Scripture plainly says:

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the [b]wrath of God abideth on him[/b]." -John 3:36

sermonindex wrote:

Brother Ormly,

You are giving very little grace to anyone in this thread. You are accusing people of being absolutely wrong in their whole Scriptural world-view.

Yes I am.... and my objection is to their approach to understanding what is written; the dishonesty in which they have constructed their rebuttals. There are no distinctions made by them between the OT, NT, Jews, Gentiles, Pagan enemies and God's people. All are unrighteous, depraved and in need of the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ, yet in most instances of what is mentioned, He wasn't born or was never heard of by those of whom I speak. Error in that thinking is not recognized/admitted to when pointed out. In fact it is defended as being the truth and all are doomed to hell if they haven't heard the gospel.
Even in righteousness, proper distinctions aren't made rendering man incapable of ever having any. Thats simply silly.... and unscriptural and I have given many verses that are simply cast aside or misrepresented back to me for me to defend.

Dishonesty, what other word fits?

Distinctions must be made if the Bible message is to be accurately understood. I have given scripture that has been ignored out of hand and what scripture has been offered me, for my rectification mind you, is distinctionless and always out of context.

I had hoped this thread to be a study of the scriptures and not a commentary carnival whose opinions are received as THE gospel by those who are too lazy to do their own homework.

I am ready to leave this forum anytime. In fact if it takes up more time like this, I will.

Thank you

I had hoped this thread to be a study of the scriptures and not a commentary carnival whose opinions are received as THE gospel by those who are too lazy to do their own homework.

I am ready to leave this forum anytime. In fact if it takes up more time like this, I will.

That's my position, that's my attitude.

Thank you

If anyone with serious inquiry would like to e-mail me, please feel free to do so.

Ormly2002@yahoo.com

Alright then. Ormly, as one who has been enlightened, you should, as a strong spiritual individual, have mercy on us weak minded folk. I am not being sarcastic, but you must understand that not everyone is going to receive the word easily. Some hearts are hardened to truth, whom God hardens AND will open at His time, not ours.

I accept the many ideas that you have put forth thus far, however there are some things that you should give more clarity to.

For example, Regarding the indians in the jungle and their right standing before God without Christ is a shocker.

You don't just throw a monkey wrench into the whole discussion. Explain why you believe in detail, using scripture, let us all come to some reasonable understanding of where your coming from.

None of the disciples understood what Jesus was saying because their hearts were hardened. Even after Jesus had died and rose again, they still didn't understand. It wasn't until the outpouring of the holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost that they began to understand the scriptures.

And also, on this site you have spiritual Babes, Young Men and Fathers, each one is at their level of understanding.

1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

I tend to an elderly man who has cancer of the eye, he has lost one eye and the cancer is eating the other. His face is practically eaten off. He can barely open his mouth because his nose is crushing down on his mouth. We can't force feed him, but we use gloves and we put the food in his mouth for him to eat, once it's in his mouth he can move it around and masicated it. And to top it all off he has Cebral Palsey.

I said all this because to tend to such an one, he needs love, Compassion and assurance that what we give him is good for him. Therefore he trust us.

Please pray for us that our hearts may be soften to receive the engrafted word of God.

Roaring Lamb said

I would like to know more about your belief that men can be just befroe God without Christ.

*Sigh* I didn't say this, Ormly said it. I was asking him to explain his position so that we can all judge it.

I know where he is coming from, but I wanted him to explain it further using scriptures.

I am not going to get into what I believe, but sufficient is to say using this verse.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.[b][color=CC0033]Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.[/color][/b]

I kind of [b]see[/b]what Doug(Ormly) is trying to say, and.....I've read thru the whole thread, and ...uh....its been tortuous to say the least.

I concur with Jay and Roaringlamb about the Need of Jesus for anyone borne of woman.

I don't understand that whole "Cal/Arm" thing as another brother put it, nor do I really want to, and Lord knows I have participated in my share of contentious threads, but dear Orm, father, two things, and in love, agape love, I say this:
covet and request the prayers of others, and secondly, dont unsubscribe, maybe a short hiatus...y'know, just to cool off. Because we are all not unaware of his schemes.

May God bless you Orm, richly, neil

Get out of the OT and place yourself in the jungles of South America or outer Mongolia....this century, any century.

I don't think I've quoted anything from the OT. And I have lived in Africa with pagans, thank you - on a mission station.

so i see that ormly did unsubscribe, or was unsubscribed.

thats kinda sad.

neil