Egalitarian Theology

Recently, I have had a few discussions with some Christians who hold egalitarian views (basically says that there are no distinctions in the roles of men and women in the home or in the church). Some of the arguments that they used seemed very questionable, if not heretical (saying that Adam and Eve were created at the same time, the reverse of what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:13, etc..) I realize that verses that say "Wives, submit to your husbands" have been abused by husbands who fail to realize that they are supposed to "love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it." At the same time, I feel that egalitarian theology is a compromise of the Word of God (Titus 2:5). I haven't done extensive study on this issue, and I'd love to hear what others have to say...What is the history of egalitarian theology?Can it be reconciled with the Word of God?Any thoughts or comments or answers to questions would be great! Thanks. In Christ, Jake

I'd say that the NT differentiates the church roles a bit but I think the work issue was more a social custom. Women were known in Scripture to do a lot of work that wasn't inside the home. Proverbs 31 talks about them making money by selling things and growing things, etc. I think that the argument for church roles being different is pretty strong. Paul specifically said he'd not allow a woman to teach over a man. The argument that they have to stay home doing whatever is less convincing by far. Abandoning the home and kids is bad, and idolatry is bad, but it is really hard to say that a woman shouldn't work outside the home at all. Some churches teach this like it's one of the commandments and it just doesn't fit. Suddenly when the man is hurt, dead, or has run off they change their mind and the woman can work. So why is it that a woman can't help out her husband by making a little dough so he can go back to school, etc? Most groups who hold to this view that only men can hold jobs embrace families whose father works 70 hrs/wk to make things work while the woman paints her toenails and pushes buttons on the automatic appliances. It that really better than both working 30-40 hrs a week? Don't kids need their fathers around too? The OT was more specific in gender roles, though, I think. It views men who dress like women or do a woman's work as disgusting. I am serious about women not being pastors, but I concede that deaconesses are reasonable. I will not sign up for a class taught by a woman. I think Paul's words were unmistakable on that. I think they were unmistakable on women dressing modestly and womanly as well. 8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Greg, Your analysis seems too reductionistic. If the issue is really that clear-cut, there would not have been such a heated debate among conservative evangelicals.For instance, the interpretation of "head" in 1 Corinthians 11 is not as straightforward as you seem to make of it.Many prominent evangelicals, whose Christian faith and integrity are not doubted, are divided over this issue. One of my favorite bible scholars, Gordon Fee, leans towards the egalitarian view. He put up some cogent arguments for this view.On the other hand, J. I. Packer (one of my favorite theologians) and John Piper (one of my favorite pastors) took on the complementary view.I am more inclined towards the complementary view (but allowing for exceptions in unusual circumstances -- God raised up Debra as the judge when it appeared that most men did not live up to their role as leaders). However, I have to admit after reviewing the arguments from both sides that many from either side are trying to be faithful to the Word of God; it is not as simple as the liberal-modernist controversy where one side was obviously the bad guys...

Some years ago a prominent evangelical leader in the UK wrote a book called 'Leadership is Male'. It caused a furore, especially among some missionary groups. I had a lot of sympathy with the book but not with the title. I would have preferred 'Authority is Male in the Church'. I tend to regard leadership as an event rather than a role.

Question for you...what about all the female missionaries who were called of God to go out to the mission field (alone)? Are they not worthy of teaching, preaching and reaching? Lillian Trasher, Florence Steidel, or even Aimee Semple McPherson...all were women called of God to minister to others. Obviously there were women in the New Testament who led ministries and were involved in ministry. Just my thoughts...since I feel led to be a missionary, and as of right now it will be only myself and my Lord.

Men, your views, if I expressed them in my Meeting for worship or office would draw such a thunderous rebuke as you could not even imagine. The whole notion that women have their place dictated by scriptures, and not by common sense or attributes and merit, is unconscionable. Jake, do you believe in the authority and infallibility of Scripture?? Does your church?? The wisdom of this world is foolish and so is our common sense...Our common sense would never bring us to believe in Christ for salvation, only the Holy Spirit and the Bible could reveal that to us. So why should we rely on out common sense for matters such as this...We must rely on the Book!!The roles of men and women are different, in the home and in the church. Not one is better than the other, they are just different and thank God that they are. Husband and wife should complement each other. This doesn't mean that woman can't work or be involved in ministry or be missionaries. This doesn't mean that the man is the dictator of the house. It is a two-way street, and both parties, husband and wife need to be fulfilling there God-given roles and submitting to Him for it to work properly...Paul and the other writers of Scripture are laying out a principle here for all time not just for that time period. Paul makes references to husband and wife relating like Christ relates to the church(Epehsians 5:22-33), man and woman related to the trinity(Christ and God-1 Corinthians 11:3-4), refers to Genesis in 1 Tomothy 2:13 showing that this is God's created order, In Collossians Paul says that it is "fitting in the Lord" for wives to submit to there husbands, Peter writes on the same subject in 1 Peter making a refference to Abraham and Sarah, once again laying out a principle for all time....the list goes onWhy is it that we have so much trouble with these versus but not with "children obey your parents." No one questions the validity of that one...I in no way think that men are better than woman, nor do I claim to have a perfect understanding of all of these passages relating male and female roles. But I believe that the egalitarian message only appeals to the flesh. It gives woman a false sense of freedom and control, and it tells men that they don't have to step up and be resposible and leaders...this is actually the same message that you see in the world, just watch 5 minutes of any sitcom or other TV show...In Christ, Jake Kail

here is a link that I found to be very helpful in answering a lot of these questions...http://cacsi.com/Biblical.htm

No, I don't hold the Bible as infallible, nor does my Church. It is a vital, spiritual revelation of God and shows the way to salvation, but as an historical document it has many errors.This is very dangersous Jake...Why do you believe that Jesus is the way to heaven if the Bible has errors? Who knows, maybe they were wrong there too...Do you see where this type of thinking leads...You need to get out of that church. Any church that doesn't hold to the authority of Scripture will have error after error creep into the it... On the contrary: "Trust in the Lord with all of your heart and lean not on your own understandind." Yes, God gave us brains and we must use them. But just because the Bible doesn't go along with the thinking of today, doesn't mean that we change it. The Bible judges us, we certainly do not judge the Bible lest we make a mockery of God!!Am I correct in that Paul was never married? The old saying goes, he that doesn't play the game doesn't make the rules. Well as far as I am concerned the old saying is a bunch of garbage. So i guess if you have never commited adultry you can't say that it is wrong?? Paul's authority to write Scripture came from Almighty God himself. (By the way Peter was married and he wrote the same thing as Paul)"Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"-1 Corinthians 1:20We cannot rely on the world's wisdom!! Jake, you need to come to a point where you accept the Bible for what it is or reject it as a whole...There is no room for the middle ground...Seek God, pray, ask the tough questions...He will answer them or give you the faith to just believe Him on His word...Jake Kail

I do recall Greg saying that he listened to Theresa Conlon's sermon. Shame on you, Greg! :-D Just kidding. :-) I guess all the women on here, including me, have not taught the men on here anything. Maybe when we post, all the men should log off. You don't want to "learn" anything from a woman, do you? ;-) In Him, Chanin

Being a guy and all I would just like to say that I too have struggled with the idea of women having to submit to men. This is an overly simplified view of the teaching of my church on this subject from the basis of marriage: if both are christians then the wife should be subject to her husband, and honestly I cannot think of one example where this is not so. However if the husband is not a christian then the wife is by duty to her children bound to raise them in the fear of the lord and if the husband objects, the wife is bound by a greater covenant (christ) and is not under the autority of her husband. This being said, my church also does not allow divorce or remarriage except in cases of death.Lyndon

My husband is the head of our home. Though, I am the spiritual leader/teacher in our home. This is just the way it has worked out. Dan is not too in tune with spiritual matters, though he has come a long way since I've been feeding him good "bread and meat". He really has no discernment and he knows this. He is the "big man"- the head man in charge of all financial things, etc... and I am glad!I am quite lucky because my husband would do almost anything I ask. I could convince him of anything. So, I willigly give up the right to try to run things my own way and willingly offer my submission to him out of obedience to the Lord. It is not like he expects it or demands it- but i know to do this. It is the example I want to show to my kids.What is neat is that my husband knows how to make things run smooth in our home by giving up his right to "be right' too. We have found a wonderful balance of respect and giving of ourselves.He and I know that he gets the final say on things- but then again, my opinion matters to him a great deal so that he makes me think i am getting my way. :-) About women teachers- the fact is that there have been and are many that are excellent and I believe God has raised them up. If men don't want to hear them- oh, well. I don't know how it is wrong for a man to learn anything from Theresa Conlon or Amy Carmichael, or Madame Guyon, etc...In Him, Chanin

I could convince him of anything. So, I willigly give up the right to try to run things my own way and willingly offer my submission to him out of obedience to the Lord. It is not like he expects it or demands it- but i know to do this. It is the example I want to show to my kids.That is a a good example of what submission is. If a husband has to force his wife to "submit" than it is not submission at all. If the husband turns around and abuses this submission than he is living in sin...He is called to love and serve his wife. When done properly by both parties, a beautiful harmony is created...

Please forgive me but this is my oberservation. I believe the women are more on fire than the men on this website, as well as in our local communities. The men fear the world and not God. That is why this topic even exists. If men loved Christ as He loves His church, the women would not have to step into the gap. His ways would establish His precepts, ordinances, and statues. The family would be right in His ways. Knowing His ways brings understanding, and salvation.In ChristJeff

The men fear the world and not God. That is why this topic even exists. If men loved Christ as He loves His church, the women would not have to step into the gap. His ways would establish His precepts, ordinances, and statues. The family would be right in His ways. Jeff, I have to say Amen to that! Somewhere along the line the church got this idea that men are just supposed to be "nice guys." And thats how Jesus is portrayed so often today. I think i saw this in a book somewhere: "Jesus wasn't crucified for being Mr. Rogers." I am sad to say that we live in a generation of weak Christian men...Its only going to get worse unless the church wakes up. I see these youth group programs that are so silly and watered down, its no wonder we have weak men...it breaks my heart. We are so afraid to just give them Jesus!! We feel like we have to entertain them, but inside they are dying for Jesus!! Sorry that may have been a little bit of a tangent...God, raise up a generation of men who fear the Lord!!In Christ, Jake Kail

I have a few comments on that. There are some weak men in the church, but at the same time it is usually women who seek to gain authority rather than begrudgingly accepting it for lack of other options. Part of the curse is that women desire the authority that has been given to men!16To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."She didn't suddenly desire her husband in any new way - their love was perfect in the garden. What was new is the desire to have the authority that was denied her. I find it interesting that the level of heresy accepted in different denominations is usually proportional to their tolerance of women teaching over men. Obviously there are more women who are openly emotional about their faith - but these are often the same women that turn around and forsake the faith by following emotion as it ebbs and flows. Men have the teaching role because they are more stable and discerning of the truth.I agree that we all need to get more serious about the faith, but I don't see your distinction that women are in better shape at all.

Thank you 'nobody' for that wonderful reply full of kindness and love and respect.Thanks for the REMINDER that we're cursed.Luckily the Lord has shown me something called "forebearance".In Him, Chanin

nobody wrote:I agree that we all need to get more serious about the faith, but I don't see your distinction that women are in better shape at all.The idea of men leading was my focus. If the men had faith, they would be like the centurion in Luke 7. They would be humble, lowly in spirit, and thirsting after righteousness. The women would see God in them and then submit willingly because they see the beauty of Scripture being worked out in their mate. They would see the promise being fulfilled. The women are stumbling and groping for something better. It is the man who is responsible. To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."This verse speaks more to the fallen nature that women will experience. Their solution is, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, whodo not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1Many are quick to point out that Abraham or David failed many times in faith, and yet God was faithful. Many do not talk about the consequence that come about because they chose not to follow God. My accusation still stands, in what do the men place their faith in? The world or God?In ChristJeff

Nobody writes I have a few comments on that. There are some weak men in the church, but at the same time it is usually women who seek to gain authority rather than begrudgingly accepting it for lack of other options. Part of the curse is that women desire the authority that has been given to men!16To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."She didn't suddenly desire her husband in any new way - their love was perfect in the garden. What was new is the desire to have the authority that was denied her.Hi nobodyI think you are mistaken on two counts here.1. The woman was NOT cursed2. Your interpretation of v16 is the opposite of what it says.A careful reading of Gen 3 in an archaic version (KJV which uses 'thou') will show that God held the serpent and the man responsible for what had transpired. Gen 3:1-5 shows Satan conversing with the woman but the topic of conversation is 'you/ye -plural (Adam and Eve) not 'thou' singular (Eve) It has become traditional to speak of Eve having this conversation when Adam was absent, but there is no indication of this in the narrative.v9 shows that God's initial conversation is with Adam and God uses 2nd person singular pronouns - thou, thy, etc. It was to the man that God had committed the command that the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was forbidden. "in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die'. (note the 2nd pers sing pronouns) Adam (shame on him) immediately blames the woman whom thou gavest to be with me. The woman claims that she was beguiled; this testimony was true (1Tim 2:14) She blames the serpent.The serpent has nothing to say to God who pronounces the first curse "thou art cursed" (Gen 3:14)unto the woman he said "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"Note the absence of the word 'because'. God uses it of Satan's action and Adam's but not Eve's. There is no 'because' in his conversation with Eve. This is no curse (although many a woman has called it so). Why would increased fertility be regarded as a curse when in Gen 1:28 it is stated to be a blessing? But there is certainly 'change' here. The effect of these changes was to make the woman consciously more dependent upon the man, and the consequence is that he (it is specially emphasised in the Hebrew) shall rule over thee. This indicates a change in the original relationship, or at least an addition.Matthew Henry once wrote "the woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam; not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved". Is is a lovely concept. This is woman not as a a help-meet, but as one who perfectly 'answers' (as in a mirror) the man. There is no mention of 'rule' at this stage. There was no necessity for man to rule woman in an Edenic world; nor will be there be such a need in the New Heaven and New Earth. In the meantime however we have to live on this 'cursed earth'. It was to the man that God had given the 'teaching' about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam had received the revelation; he was the teacher. (examining EVe's answer may indicate that either teacher or student was less than precise in what was being taught.) It is now almost impossible for us to use the word 'rule' as it was used in Genesis 1-3. Gen 1:17 tells us that God made the sun 'to rule the day' and the moon 'to rule the night'. When was the last time you heard the sun bossing the day about? ;-) They 'rule' by lighting up the darkness. They are light-bearers; they "shed light on the situation". The man's role was to 'lead' into truth, and he would not need to impose such a rule because 'her desire would be unto her husband'. She would be willing to be lead, and she was to follow that instinct. Notice that God did not tell the man to rule the woman; He told the woman that the man would rule her. (Brothers our job is not to tell our 'woman' that we are the head of the house and have the rule. Our job is to love our 'woman' as Christ loved his Church.) This will sound completely chauvinist but here we go... the only time a woman will fight this instinct is when she doesn't feel safe, and if she doesn't feel safe that will inevitably be 'man's fault'. The woman is the 'weaker vessel' not intellectually, emotionally or physically, but in that God has built unique dependence into her nature. (physically? I once carried heavy weights for a living in the Wedgwood Factory in the UK, but I have seen an African woman, with a baby on her back, swing a huge drum of water onto her head and walk away with it. I doubt I could have lifted it off the ground!)To return to Genesis 3.17 When God speaks to the man He says 'Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife and hast eaten...' What follows is a direct consequence, not of Eve's eating, but of the Adam's... Cursed is the ground for thy sake... Please note again the 2nd pers singular use of 'thou, thee, thy'. The world is in the mess it is, not because of Eve, but because of Adam. He was the federal head of the race. Eve's sin had no knock-on consequence for the human race; Adam's has affected us all. Paul captures the significance of all this in Roman 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Hi ChaninLuckily the Lord has shown me something called "forebearance".That has nothing to do with 'luck' ;-) but everything to do with the way God works..."The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way." Psalm 25:9

Ron, Thank you for your posts! I was hoping one of you MEN would put things in the right perspective. :-) The women who are on this forum (which most might be unseen) may appreciate this "God's Letter to Woman". Actually men might appreciate it too. :-) God's Letter to WomanWhen I created the heavens and the earth, I spoke them into being. When I created man, I formed him and breathed life into his nostrils. But you, woman, I fashioned after I breathed the breath of life into man, because your nostrils are too delicate. I allowed a deep sleep to come over him so I could patiently and perfectly fashion you. Man was put to sleep so that he could not interfere with the creativity. From one bone, I fashioned you. I chose the bone that protects man's life. I chose the rib, which protects his heart and lungs and supports him, as you are meant to do. Around this one bone, I shaped you.......I modeled you. I created you perfectly and beautifully. Your characteristics are as the rib, strong yet delicate and fragile. You provide protection for the most delicate organ in man, his heart. His heart is the center of his being; his lungs hold the breath of life. The rib cage will allow itself to be broken before it will allow damage to the heart. Support man as the rib cage supports the body. You were not taken from his feet, to be under him, nor were you taken from his head, to be above him. You were taken from his side, to stand beside him and be held close to his side. You are my perfect angel.....You are my beautiful little girl. You have grown to be a splendid woman of excellence, and my eyes fill when I see the virtues in your heart. Your eyes......don't change them. Your lips - how lovely when they part in prayer. Your nose, so perfect in form. Your hands, so gentle to touch. I've caressed your face in your deepest sleep. I've held your heart close to mine. Of all that lives and breathes, you are most like me. Adam walked with me in the cool of the day, yet he was lonely. He could not see me or touch me. He could only feel me. So, everything I wanted you to share and experience with me, I fashioned in you; my holiness, my strength, my purity, my love, my protection and support. You are special, because you are an extension of me. Man represents my image, woman my emotions. Together, you represent the totality of God. So man......treat woman well. Love her, respect her, for she is fragile. In hurting her, you hurt me. What you do to her, you do to me. In crushing her, you only damage your own heart, the heart of your Father, and the heart of her Father. Woman, support man. In humility, show him the power of emotion I have given you. In gentle quietness, show your strength. In love, show him that you are the rib that protects his inner self. Satisfied in Him, Chanin

Thankyou Ron for expressing thoughtfully God's plan. Also thankyou for repeating Chanin's thought in hope that I might understand. The Lord has much work to do in my life. Please forgive me when I am nebulous, when I am harsh, when I take for granted that everyone must believe as I do. The Holy Spirit must speak, but I get in the way many times. I don't know any old men like Ron. (Old in the Lord). Being meek and lowly of spirit is evidence of one who has walk with His Lord. IN ChristJeff

Ron,I don't care what anyone else says; I think you're cool :-D In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Ron,I don't care what anyone else says; I think you're cool In Christ,Jeremy Hulseyer, thanks Hulsey... I think. :-P

Please forgive me when I am nebulous, when I am harsh, when I take for granted that everyone must believe as I do. The Holy Spirit must speak, but I get in the way many times. Don't give up, rookie. God hasn't finished yet... with either of us.

jake wrote:We used this one all the time when I was growing up. "I don't care WHAT anybody else says, I think your ok." This is a backhanded compliment, if I ever heard one.JakeJake,Luckily for me, Ron understands my lighthearted use of sarcasm.Hulsey

Hi am enjoying watching this debate and have two comments.1.. Before this thread I never thought is that a man or a woman. I just read and was blessed. Now I see that many of my favourites appear to be sisters. Amazing when you think how much we focus on gender.2. I grew up in a churh where women were "submissive" we had many dress rules like no trousers as they were mens "apparell". Thank God we have been coming free from legalism over the past two years and it appears that the more submissive the men are becoming to Christ the less of an issue it is for he women to come into submissiviness, as they recoginze that the Holy Spirit is actually the one who is leading and that Jesus is being more of the head.

Thank you Paul.After reading some comments from certain posters, many women (including me) would wonder why we should even be on this forum. For we all learn form each other as we post. We are edifying each other. brother and sister alike.It takes humility for some men to say that they learned something from a women. This is sad.My husband recently read my Surrender book by Nancy DeMoss. It has so changed his life. We are both grateful for her.My husband even commented on this thread- "did you tell them how everything I've learned about faith- I learned from you?"Our God works in His own ways. Yes, there is a fine line between legalism and real holiness. Those who walk in the spirit are the ones who know where the balance is. Those who walk after Jesus Himself- and not man made rules or traditions- are the ones who can really understand what the Word really means.over the past two years and it appears that the more submissive the men are becoming to Christ the less of an issue it is for he women to come into submissiviness, as they recoginze that the Holy Spirit is actually the one who is leading and that Jesus is being more of the head. This is so true. I think it has to do with who are they looking at. if men are looking at women to see if they are submitting- then their focus is wrong. If men are looking at Jesus- then things will fall into place most likely.Same with women. If women are looking for the faults of men or 'that they are not leading, etc... then their focus is not on Jesus and they will not hear the Spirit when he is leading them to be submissive.Satisfied in Him, Chanin

Chanin wrote:After reading some comments from certain posters, many women (including me) would wonder why we should even be on this forum. For we all learn form each other as we post. We are edifying each other. brother and sister alike.I appreciate your faith and read many of things you share. Secondly, one of the best books that I have read thus far, is written by Gisela Yohannan, "Broken for a Purpose." It can be found on the Gospel for Asia website store. The price is $8.00. Along with Tozer and Murray this one is special to me. It gets you to "consider your own ways." In Christ Jeff

Jeff, Thank you. By the way, in the former posts in this thread, I could tell you were trying to stick for us girls. I didn't want you to feel bad because I gave Ron the credit for really confirming things from the Word.Are you still in HVAC? My husband owns an HVAC company. Well, it's really Electrical and Mechanical (Industrial). We're in the Cinci area as well as Loisville, Lexington, Tennesee and some in Indy.If you ever have to move this way, let us know. :-) Satisfied in Him, Chanin

Chanin wrote:Are you still in HVAC? My husband owns an HVAC company. Well, it's really Electrical and Mechanical (Industrial). We're in the Cinci area as well as Loisville, Lexington, Tennesee and some in Indy.Thankyou for your thoughtfulness. The Lord calls some to be the hands, the feet, the eyes of His Church. Brother Ron has been equiped to explain the Word. No doubt about that. He amazes me, when I take a step back and look at his skills in language. He is patient and longsuffering, and willing to go another mile. As for me, I know the Lord has called me to pastor a church. I may end up in the coal regions of Pennsylvania. A rough preacher for a rough crowd. About five years ago, three years into my walking with the Lord I was frustrated with "church." So I asked the Lord to show me how He saves me. And we know He is faithful. So day by day I learn a little bit more how He is saving me. This has been my life for the last 5 years. He is teaching me to be a fisher of men. Thankyou for your patience.In ChristJeff