Philologos

This question is for Philologos or anyone who has an advanced understanding of Greek.

Regarding Galatians 2:20, is it correct to translate this verse as 'faith of God' or 'faith in God'.

By the way, to all who are reading, this is not intended to be a King James Only thread and I do not want it to go into that direction. I am just seeking information on the Greek.

Galatians 2:20

English Standard Version (ESV)

20I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

King James Version (KJV)

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

New King James Version (NKJV)

20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Thanks

Hi JaySaved...

I don't mean to interject when you are asking something from another brother. However, I wanted to interject something concerning the use of prepositions.

[i]...the painting of the Lord[/i].

This can have [u]two[/u] meanings. It can mean [i]a painting that depicted the Lord[/i] -or- it can depict [i]the Lord's dominion or authority concerning the painting[/i]. Similar examples of dual meaning could be used for many such prepositions. In your example, the KJV uses the term "[i]...faith of the Son of God[/i]." Does this refer to [i]the Son of God's faith[/i] -or- [i]faith in the Son of God[/i]?

We might be careful to understand the usage in regards to literal interpretation. It could mean the difference in the interpretation of "[i]taking up serpents[/i]."

I am also eagerly waiting for Philologo's response.

:-)

I am also eagerly waiting for Philologo's response.

[b]εν πιστει ζω[/b] This would give something like ‘I live by faith’ The Greek preposition ‘en’ means ‘in’ or ‘within’ but it is sometimes used ‘instrumentally’ (bet you wished you hadn’t asked now!) When Biblical Greek want to say ‘kill with the sword’ it would use ‘en’ in the sense of ‘by the sword’; the sword being the ‘instrument’ of the killing. We have to take note of the context to see which is most appropriate. In this instance my judgement would be that it means ‘by faith’. It should be noted that there is no definite article here and those Cambridge Bibles that we have been hearing about should have put the word ‘the’ into italics so that it read [color=0000ff]“I now live in [i]the[/i] flesh” (Gal 2:20 KJVS)[/color] More modern versions have sometimes corrected this eg [color=0000ff]“I now live in the flesh I live in faith” (Gal 2:20 ASV)
“I live by faith” (Gal 2:20 NKJV)[/color]So it is not ‘the faith’ of the Son of God but ‘faith’.

Next we have the bit τη του υιου του Θεου where
[b]τη[/b] is ‘the definite article’ and is Dative, Singular, Feminine. It is referring backwards to the feminine gender word ‘faith’. I think it could best be translated as ‘that’. So that the sentence now reads “I live by faith, that (faith)”
[b]του υιου[/b] is the definite article and is Genitive, Singular, Masculine followed by the word ‘son’. This is the Greek way of saying ‘belonging to the son’.
[b]του Θεου[/b] the definite article and is Genitive, Singular, Masculine followed by the word ‘God’. This is the Greek way of saying ‘belonging to God’.

So we have a reference to God’s Son’s faith. The question then is does this mean ‘faith in him’ or ‘faith from him’? I think it means the kind of faith that he had, which was the faith of a son. In Roman’s Paul refers to Abraham’s faith[color=0000ff]“And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.” (Rom 4:12 KJVS)[/color] Again the word 'faith' is without the definite article. It is literally ‘in the steps of our father Abraham’s faith’; this is the same kind of construction as Galatians 2:20.

It is referring to ‘Abrahamic faith’, the kind of faith that Abraham had; we sometimes call this 'justifying faith'. Jews had to have both circumcision AND Abrahamic faith. The point I am making is that Abraham did not give them this faith, it was faith like Abraham's. If we carry through this idea of a ‘kind of faith’ into Galatians it seems that Paul is referring to the ‘kind of faith’ that the Son had. This would be significant because Paul later goes on to point out that ‘faith’ has now arrived (Gal 3:25) and is part of the way in which we become ‘sons’ of God, God giving us the Spirit of his Son.

John Wesley was questioned about his claims that before his ‘warm heart’ experience he did not have ‘faith’. His questioners reminded him that he was Anglican priest and had been a missionary to the American colonies. His answer was that the faith he had then was the faith of a slave not that of a son.

I don’t think Galatians 2:20 is talking about Christ’s own personal faith being given to us, but of Paul’s experience of a Son-like faith. Slaves obeyed God because they had to; sons because they chose to. Slaves were kept in check by a law; sons walk in the Spirit. Personally I would rather take both broad interpretations than an either/or choice. This is Christwards and Sonlike faith, but it is not, I think, Christ’ faith instead of Paul’s faith.

This is the way I understand this:

Interliniar "Christ I have been crucified with, yet I live no longer I, but lives in me Christ; but that which now I live in flesh, in faith I live, that of the Son of God, who loved me and gave up himself for me."

My read/understanding: no longer do I live, but Christ lives in me: but the life that I live in flesh now, is in/by faith, the life of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

It's not my life (any longer), but His will and His life is lived in me(by faith).

Thanks Philiologos and others.

So, is it acceptable to translate the verse as both faith in Christ and faith of Christ?

So, is it acceptable to translate the verse as both faith in Christ and faith of Christ?

Remember the other phrase of Paul's "the faith of Abraham' and interpret each phrase in a similar way. Was Christ's own personal faith imparted to me? I don't think so.

Faith and repentance are only possible because God enables but each requires our personal engagement.

KJV holds the revelational truth of Gal.2.20 by its use of the prep "of" that scholars strip away with their abstractions.

The word 'of' is not a preposition. It comes from a necessary English way of translating the genitive case in Greek.

Ron's: Yes, I think it is but the 'faith' of Christ is not Christ's own faith imparted but the kind of 'faith' which Chirst had is repeated in me.

Ron, For those who may not know your definition of faith. Would you share that again? Just trying to scale the language barrier.

Ron, For those who may not know your definition of faith. Would you share that again? Just trying to scale the language barrier.

and, being as you asked so nicely ;-) here's a free definition of 'sin'
"sin is wrong response to revelation"; [color=0000ff]“...to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17 NKJV)[/color]

These definitions are not copyrighted. If you agree with them use them freely. :-D

Philologos,

I just realized that I misspelled you name. Sorry about that. I have corrected it.

Conversely, to him who knows not, sin is not imputed. There's a heap bunch of folk in the world like that, to be sure.

Yes and they are called babies.

As Adam was completely innocent, he that knows no wrong cannot sin, until he gains the knowledge of Good and Evil, don't eat, then we die.

Then; Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

In Christ: Phillip

My question would lean more to whether, since Jesus lives in me, does not His Faith, as in Godlike Faith, also live in me?

And if so, will not His Faith trump my poor faith as I lay gasping on the narrow path?

Also, from what I have been taught, if you turn the noun 'faith' into a verb 'faithe', it translates more clearly, but darned if I can figure out all the ways you would need to spell it to get the action sense of the word into 'faithe'.

Pulling on your sleeve, Philologos, and saying, please, please, can you explain this to me?, I give my thanks in advance for your attention to this small Greek matter, but great matter of 'faithing'.

Blessings,

Forrest

philologos wrote:
Yes, I think it is but the 'faith' of Christ is not Christ's own faith imparted but the kind of 'faith' which Chirst had is repeated in me

That is all well and good, but is it possible that the either/or logic could include the impartation of Christ's faith? Especially in light of Eph 2:8 -

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [b]not of yourselves: [i]it is[/i] the gift of God[/b]:

faith is right response to revelation

The question you should have probably asked but didn't, is this: Does simple obedience to God's Written Word without any revelation constitute works?

"faith is right response to revelation"; “...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom 10:17 NKJV)

and, being as you asked so nicely here's a free definition of 'sin' "sin is wrong response to revelation"; “...to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17 NKJV)

Based upon Romans 10:17, would not the correct definition be "Sin is the right response to the Word of God."?

Revelation is the revealing of the Word of God. This means the Word is revealed in us and that we have received it inwardly. A person cannot have revelation until after they have made the correct response. The Word of God does not enter into us until we have correctly responded to the Word.

This would also give us a better definition of sin as well:

Sin is the wrong response to the Word of God.

The Father said, "This is my son, listen to Him." Jesus said, "Believe in me." This is the Word of God. How will we respond? Will we believe in Jesus or not? To sin means that we do not believe in Jesus. It means we disobey. In addition, it means that we don't put God first.

What do you think?

In love,
Blake

We must remember that faith is not a work and it is not a meritorious action that causes God to look upon us with favor. If it was, it was contradict the very meaning of election. (Romans 9:11-12)

Here is where the confusion lies between Calvinism and the Wesleyan non-Calvinist.
Does Regeneration precede Faith or does Faith precede Regeneration.

Both systems affirm that we are saved by Grace through Faith and that our salvation does not depend on anything we do whether good or bad—we cannot earn our salvation.

Both systems affirm that the grace of God must come before our Faith:
Prevenient Grace says that God must perform a work of grace before a person has the ability to have faith. God does nothing in this grace but bring the person to the ability to choose. This grace is irresistible, but does not result in regeneration but it is not intended to.
Irresistible Grace says that God must perform a work of grace before a person has the ability to have faith. God in this grace actually regenerates the sinner and the sinner will respond with Faith—not out of compulsion but out of the new desire they have for God. The intent of Irresistible Grace is to bring regeneration.

In one view (Wesleyan) Faith precedes regeneration. The sinner is made aware of his present state, but has the ability to remain or to believe in the offer of God and have faith in God. Once the sinner has faith in God, God performs a work of Irresistible grace in which He regenerates the person. In this step, the person chooses first, then God chooses the person.

In the other view (Calvinism) regeneration precedes faith. The sinner is regenerated by God and made aware of his present state and the true nature of God. The person always responds in Faith because the ‘awareness’ is actually the sinner being regenerated. The sinner desires God after the regeneration and chooses to have faith and follow God. In this step, God chooses the person and then the person chooses God.

I hope I have been very even-handed to both approaches and I pray that all of us would ask God to reveal which is true, which is false, or if both are false.

God Bless

philologos wrote:
So it is not ‘the faith’ of the Son of God but ‘faith’.

Example:
I have faith [b]in[/b] Christ, because I never realy saw Him physicaly(substantial evidence), but I have circumstantial evidence of His word and witnesses the Apostles.

Jesus would/does not have faith at all but perfect knowlege(conclusive evidence) of GOD or
Jesus did only have circumstantial evidence, but actual knowlege.

Therefore, in context to reality you should have instructed them thus: "So it is not ‘the faith’ [b]of[/b] the Son of God but ‘faith’ [b]in[/b] the Son of God".

Especially in light of Eph 2:8 -

How do you know the "it" is faith, rather than grace?

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that bnot of yourselves: [i]it is[/i] the gift of God:

Faith is not a gift, but a command, Grace is the Gift.

The "it" is in refrence to the Grace, not Faith.

Faith is not a gift, but a command, Grace is the Gift.

The 'it' refers to the Salvation. Salvation is a gift of God that begins in the grace of God and is funneled through the channel of Faith.

None of this is according to works but is all a gift of God.

For example, if A + B = C and C is a gift that cannot be earned. Would it be fair to say that B is entirely dependent upon us?

So to, Grace + Faith = Salvation and Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned. How do we then say that Faith is entirely us and is not part of the gift?

Ephesians 2:8 tells us that Faith is our part of the salvation process, but that Faith is not the reason for our salvation and it is not the basis of the salvation. What Ron is saying is that our Faith is a right response (our part) to the revelation of God's grace.

God does not have faith for us, but His grace enables us to have faith.

[b]Habakkuk 2:4[/b][color=990000]Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: the just shall live by his faith.[/color]
Please, keep words in context!
The "his" means "his own" faith.

JaySaved wrote:
God does not have faith for us, but His grace enables us to have faith.

sb1175 wrote:
is believing the same as having faith?

sb1175 wrote:
if it is a command, how can a dead heart in trespasses and sin all of a sudden have faith in what God says He is and will do without the reveleation of the Word of God?

JaySaved wrote:
God does not have faith for us, but His grace enables us to have faith.

logic wrote:
Just as God's grace enables us to breath.

Exactly, we can do nothing apart from the grace of God. We are entirely dependent upon Him.

Great response...AMEN

Compliments:

[b]Habakkuk 2:4[/b] [color=990000]Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: the just shall live by his faith.[/color]
The word "his" must refere to the person whose soul is lifted up and is not upright in him.

Would you say, "The person which is eating my lunch, The cops will get [b]him[/b] for steeling my food."
Would you be refering to the [b]him[/b] as a difrent person?
No.
The same for [b]Habakkuk 2:4[/b].
The "his" must refer to the subject.

[b]Compliments wrote:[/b]
I am having difficulty receiving that it's not "Christs' faith" that Paul is now living by.

Who elses would it be if Jesus couldn't have faith?
If you think that Jesus does have faith, reread my post about it, then tell me how He could.

[b]sb1175 wrote:[/b]
how can you love truth and not submit to it? i just don't feel there's any basis for somebody to be able to say i love truth without being able to submit to it.

Truth is reality and the law is real.
Couldn't a judge with a dead heart submit the law that he loves?
Yes.
However, one will not submit consistantly.

I have no idea what "faith-ing" is.

i will come back after chewing on your answer about the judge because, my i still have to understand what you are getting at

basis for somebody to be able to say i love truth without being able to submit to it

That is how the law works.
One who has a dead heart in trespasses and sin hears the truth of God's Law and submits to it in conviction.

somebody please shed some light on the 22-28 of chapter 3

sb1175 wrote:
somebody please shed some light on the 22-28 of chapter 3.... i was hoping Ron would drop by but he's nowhere to be seen

[b]Gal 3:23[/b] [color=990000]But before the coming of faith, we were guarded under Law, having been locked up to the faith being about to be revealed.[/color]
[b]In other words:[/b] Before faith in Jesus Christ, they were guarded in a common subjection to Law for a purpose of directing them to that that faith.
Therefore the Law is a Guide to those under it.V.24

sb1175 on 2007/4/13 17:07:30
In your eyes is faith, i.e saving faith, a work or not? (to make it simpler, if faith is believing, is believing a work that humans do or not) just like for example, not stealing is a work, or holding oneself from coveting, or other sinful things...or even prayer is a work (please don't go hard on me, for this has been little by little explained to me, and i still haven't really fleshed all the implications out).... i believe it is, but the issue i have is, i would like to know how you reconcile "faith" if it is a work with your definition?

CJaKfOrEsT on 2007/4/16 9:47:21
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It might seem that the obvious answer is 'faith' but the word 'it' in 'it is the...' is in the neuter which is not what I would have expected if it is referring to 'faith' which is a feminine noun. The word 'grace' is also a feminine noun so the word 'it' doesn't seem to be pointing to that either.

I think it may be referring to the whole 'salvation' process and not specifically to 'faith' itself.

Based upon Romans 10:17, would not the correct definition be "Sin is the right response to the Word of God."?

sb1175 on 2007/4/16 20:24:38
again, if it is a command, how can a dead heart in trespasses and sin all of a sudden have faith in what God says He is and will do without the reveleation of the Word of God? i.e, (i would also ascribe as) the heart changed from dead to living, by the faith of Jesus Christ inside the man as "UniqueWebPr" stated. i am burning to see the greek exposition on chapters 3 and 4 of Romans.

The angel says 'no spoken word of God is without dunamis (inherent power)' and Mary responds 'be it unto me according to your spoken word'. The very fact of God 'speaking' changes everything. His initiative in speaking changes all the rules, even those who are in the graves can hear when God speaks. (John 5:28,29) We have at least three incidents in the gospel where the Lord spoke to dead people and they heard him.

b1175 wrote:
somebody please shed some light on the 22-28 of chapter 3.... i was hoping Ron would drop by but he's nowhere to be seen

The word for 'word' is rhEma which is an expressed or spoken word. It is a word in an active state rather than as a dormant fact.

I have always needed a definition of rhema. :-)

Quote: "My question would lean more to whether, since Jesus lives in me, does not His Faith, as in Godlike Faith, also live in me?

And if so, will not His Faith trump my poor faith as I lay gasping on the narrow path?"

I am not philologos, but we get the whole bucket of Grace, which is in Christ Jesus, including His Faith, for ours is dead trespasses and sin and can only be reckoned by God as in Abraham. The Faith Christ that we now live by is not only reckoned, but birthed in us. Birthed by water and the Spirit. The Living Water Christ gives and the Spirit of Himself and the answered prayer of Christ Himself and the Answer of the Father by the Holy Spirit in us, and on top of that the Abode of the Father with us.

Who is our Glory? Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Who is our new life and faith? Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in the faith the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

More of Him and His life and Faith in us.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Amen to our new Faith.

In the Faith Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Quote: "My question would lean more to whether, since Jesus lives in me, does not His Faith, as in Godlike Faith, also live in me?

And if so, will not His Faith trump my poor faith as I lay gasping on the narrow path?"

I am not philologos, but we get the whole bucket of Grace, which is in Christ Jesus, including His Faith, for ours is dead trespasses and sin and can only be reckoned by God as in Abraham. The Faith Christ that we now live by is not only reckoned, but birthed in us....Amen to our new Faith.

In the Faith Christ: Phillip

I'll take that as a yes, and rejoice that Christ in me will pick me up on the path and carry me when I cannot walk by myself any longer.

Blessings,

Forrest

philologos wrote:
I think it may be referring to the whole 'salvation' process and not specifically to 'faith' itself.

Interesting... Have never thought of that before. I guess this further solidifies my view, because if the "it" is the "whole 'slavation' process", the the "faith" and the "grace" whole be included in the "gift of God". Otherwise their would be something for man to "boast" of.