strawrifle
http://www.current.tv/watch/21674856
Church in the 21 cent? this is Solomons Porch Doug Pagitt church..I like the ideas on community and the social Gospel..But a lot of it left me cold...
andy
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is this church in todays society
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Smokey
Just another group trying to re-invent the gospel. This most likely is what the "church" will look like as it pursues a social gospel. Grace, and love are embraced, and God's judgment is discarded. :-o
Blessings Greg
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sermonindex
andy,
anywhere human beings gather, whether it be a secular institution or an ecclesiastical institution can leave one cold. Because we are broken and flawed, that is truth. You know this.
I have great respect and love for Doug Padgitt and the body of believers, and seekers at Solomon's Porch.
I watched that video, intently, and there was one brother, who was saying "in the end, it's just about people"....yeh, that left me dismayed of course, because in the end and the begininng its about Jesus. But we have no idea, where this fellow is AT in the Lord, he wasnt a pastor, just another lost and lonely soul testifying to what HE believes is the case. I understand what he was TRYING to say, but pray God, there is ONE person there that would later tell him, its NOT just about people, its about Jesus living IN people, that enables them to glorify God, whether it be feeding the poor, or forthtelling about injustice (which is a part of what some call the "social Gospel") and its about letting the Holy Spirit seize you up and run your tongue and tell people who do NOT know Jesus, that it is Him and Him alone, who will bring you the peace joy and love of His Ministry of reconciliation. (and that which what some call the salvation Gospel)
in my heart there is not two Gospels, social or salvation, there is only THE GOSPEL. to wit: when you walk with Jesus, when you follow Jesus, it is the indwelling Holy Ghost that has you testifying to the wonderous miracle working Power of Him in you that moves your tongue, it is the indwelling Holy Spirit that moves you to action when you see a man sleeping in a doorway in zero degree weather and make him a bowl of soup, a hot sandwich and a cup of hot cocoa.
The young woman listing the things that she believes Jesus would be doing today was half way off, she listed a whole litany of contemporary social issues. I understand what she was TRYING to say, but who is there to tell her that Jesus is doing everything today, He lives IN you girl, and when you speak of feminism, I can promise you that Jesus weeps over EVERY baby that is aborted, how would she react when I said THAT to her, while on the same token I agree with what she was TRYING to say about "globalization", which is just after all man making money his god, and that ties into the whole Revelations 18 thing about the "whore of babylon" and drinking of "her excesses". But you wouldnt see Jesus in Seattle breaking windows at the WTO riot, our Lord would be up before dawn, in a desolate place, praying and communing with His Father.
anyway...Solomons Porch is a indicator that the so-called "traditional church" in America is not relevant to a great portion of the seekers and believers in this country, this empire.
in Jesus' love, neil
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sermonindex
Just another group trying to re-invent the gospel. This most likely is what the "church" will look like as it pursues a social gospel. Grace, and love are embraced, and God's judgment is discarded.
thats a rather flippant dismissal of a group of people trying to grasp the Richness of Christ.
I'll say what I said to our brother below, there are no two Gospels, "social" and "salvation", there is only One Gospel, and both those elements go hand in hand.
But please, try and look beneath the surface before you dismiss such as these so flippantly, I say this in Jesus' love, not looking for a argument.
neil
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strawrifle
Hi Bartle interesting post..trust me i'm way less godly then anyone on the clip i'm sure..Just replying to how i felt watching it!!
I guess part of me found it all a little bit fake sorry! Not so much the spiritual side of it,just the all trying to be relevant side..
Similar to when i'm trying to be down with my nephew and nieces,and they see right through me..
All the cussing,so we can show how cool we are,makes me suspicious.
Surely at sometime beyond the cussing,beyond the "were the same as you" attitude,beyond the Jesus loves the environment : you still have to say Jesus says ur a sinner and there is a hell.
Of course its a short clip..But i do wonder how this church deals with certain sins like abortion and homosexuality..I'm a person who was involved in a bi-lifestyle,so please don't think i'm picking on that..There just two issue that more "modern" Christian have a problem confronting in my experiences..
Ive read emergents accuse traditional Christians of throwing the baby out with the bath water..I wonder if the reverse is true & they refuse to accept anything from the traditional church,just because its traditional?
andy
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strawrifle
Bartle you said ""Solomons Porch is a indicator that the so-called "traditional church" in America is not relevant to a great portion of the seekers and believers in this country, this empire.""
I think that is the issue!! Are SP more relevant because their compromising though??
aj
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tjservant
I found the video quite troubling. I’m not sure exactly what it was, but it did not have a very calming effect. I felt kind of on edge. I did not get a feeling of holiness. In fact, while I could never be sure without actually asking them, I feel that many of them would say I was pushing my old school, conservative, traditionalist ways upon them if I were to even mention it.
It didn’t seem like anything new to me, just the same old teenage (young people) rebellion that occurs in every generation nowadays, only perhaps more disguised.
A wiser man than myself said, “There is nothing new under the sun”
I did see Non-Christian ways to dress, and Non-Christian ways to speak.
just my 2 cents
God Bless
TJ
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Compton
For a few years I've heard many emergent thinkers expressing a desire to leave the modern mega-seeker sensitive politicized church and return to a spiritual kingdom Christianity that existed before the "Constantination" of the Church. After about 10 years of post-modern Christianty I've been reminded how men may use different vocabulary to describe their hearts...but their hearts remain the same. My observations...
1) Emergent Christianty is first and foremost seeker sensitive and is still producing mega-churches.
2) It's world-friendly methods reveal crucial differences from the moral and doctrinal writings of the earliest apostolic fathers such as Polycarp, Tertullian, or Cyprian.
3...while the Emergent movement has successfuly resisted conservative politics, it has not avoided political alliance in general as the earliest ante-Nicene church fathers had. In the exact same fashion that the modern conservative political church has mingled with empire, (as Bartle put it) the Emergent church has also become an openly political movement, often disturbingly at the expense of it's proclamation of a spiritual kingdom.
So it remains true...our sincere longings for authenticity, our critiques of those before us, and our idealogical movements are only chaff. Unless a man is born again...
(edit: These same measurements apply to the Evangelical churches. Even with all it's noteworthy social works, if the Evangelical movements of the 18th and 19th century (which were the 'emerging' church of their days) had not made the conversion of men's hearts the primary mission, these too would have been forgotten by history in short time. In short our forefathers believed in the Holy Spirit before they believed in entertainment, big brand names, compassion, politics, and homeless shelters.
It is fair to admit that Evangelical Christianity is shipwrecked on the rocks of worldiness right now...but by ignoring the earlier great men of the Evangelical church the Emergent church has missed a real opportunity to reform Gospel preaching in this country. Instead they have chosen to repackage their churches in articulate post-modern lingo, and while that makes for interesting books, it's not much of a solution for men's lost condition.)
MC
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strawrifle
Hi,yeah there is a certain unsettling feeling to the clip,but maybe thats a good thing?kind of confronting where were standing?
20 years ago this was me (still is to a point)!!I left church though,seems some stayed..So maybe i'm just bitter "where were they when i needed them" lol
I really don't have a problem with the way they dress..Piercings or grungy/skateboard look is not unlike how i dress (besides the piercings lol)..I just wonder if its authentic,or just how they think they should look to reach their community..
I get the feeling they may repeat the mantra ad nauseam : can't look traditional can't look traditional
aj
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tjservant
I really don't have a problem with the way they dress..Piercings or grungy/skateboard look
I agree, but one of the girls was wearing something I consider to be to revealing.
and the cuss words....
God Bless
TJ
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sermonindex
couple points:
1. I'm not going gonna be serving as Doug Padgit's apologist or defender. I never been there, nor met him. I do like what they are trying to do there.
2. I think the foul language is not the fruit that should be borne from the lips of a yielded follower of Jesus, but I think what is allowed to happen in some of the meetings and gatherings is that others besides those in pastoral and leadership positions are allowed to speak, I don't know, but I didnt hear any foul language from pastor Doug Padgitt.
3. I think a lot of people are missing the point on this issue of "relevency", and what I'm about to say, I beg that nobody takes as offense, but the current mold of your protestant "low church" (as opposed to "high church", pres, epis, catholic) is this: Sundays at 11, at 10:45, people gather together, put smiles on their faces, shake hands, exchange surface pleasantries, light conversation, than precisely at 11, the worship team starts to play songs, everybody is told to rise, you sing songs, in between songs the pastor might led a corporate prayer, keep standing, more songs, than announcements about the ladies breakfast on Saturday morning, leadership conference on Friday night, childrens church teachers meeting for the once a month training session at 2 after services, announce the wednesday night Bible study (which will just be a sunday lite version of the days service, difference being you can raise your hand and make a point during the pastors lecture) announce the twice a month saturday prayer meeting, which will start at 6 and end precisely at 6:45, and then the exhortation over giving to God, and then the prayer over the offering, then the ushers walk down the aisles, while the worship team sings, then the worship team exits the stage and the pastor will speak to a passive group of listeners for 30 to 50 minutes, then the altar call, encouraging those who dont know Jesus to raise their hand, with every eye closed, then you're all dismissed, but if you want to remain at the altar for prayer a team of elders stand by ready, then the people all leave, and what some of them do is to cluster in little groups and make plans to eat at the Denny's, and these plans are usually whispered, so that maybe that individual who was sitting alone in the forward facing pews might not hear, and be offended by not being invited to break bread togther, and then its over. week after week, year after year, the same thing, over and over.
and the pastor, God bless him will always have a nice neat haircut, and will be wearing a suit, looking exactly either like a businessman, or like a pastor is SUPPOSED to look.
Its pro forma, there's no room for God because the agenda has already been set, and the people that gather are NOT really up for community, they don't want to be wired for community sure they'll gather and make nice for a few hours, and listen to a sermon, and then surface smile and say bye.....and thats what passes for church in America in traditional evangelical "low" churches.........and heaven forbid the Spirit takes charge, lays people on their faces until midnight in weeping contrition. Heaven forbid we should rip up the forward facing pews and sit people in a square so they could SEE each other, heaven forbid, the community of faith should enjoy a love feast together, heaven forbid, we get a basin of warm water and start washing each other's feet, heaven forbid, some long haired gen x, gen y fonkball should wander in.....do you get what I'm trying to say?
These twenty somethings who dont know the Lord certainly know enough to see the underlying barrenness of this ecclesiatical late 20th century version of American protestantism, or pentecostalism.
God's been weaned out of the program, the agenda is set, and I personally am very very weary of how "church" is done in America, mainstream. Its not a question of "relevancy", its a question of trying to pick fruit from a barren tree.
Now some people enjoy (and attend) just such mainstream churches, nothing bad against them, no judgement on my part, anywhere Jesus and Him crucified is preached and taught, Bless God!! I'm not kidding, I love it, I love my home church back in Cali, but I just described how it goes there, and the whole things about the label "emergent", or "emerging church", its much the same baggage that "evangelical" has with it now. People love to label.
tell ya what bro, I'd love to find 5 maybe 10 fellow believers in my geographical area, rent a nearby storefront, nicely paint One Name on the window: "Jesus", throw down some rugs, get some plastic chairs, folding chairs, wooden benches, some fold up plastic tables for eating and for writing and studying, and start holding meetings,,,some might be prayer meetings, some might be worship sharing meetings, some healing meetings, but I'll tell you what, before every meeting, one of us would be asking and inviting the Holy Spirit to come in and lead the meeting, and here's what it would say for Sunday
Sunday meeting: 11 till ?
oh oh, wait, what about a leader? what about leadership? When a group of believers start to hold meetings with the Holy Ghost as Leader, over time the nominal human leadership will be revealed to all assembled, without rancor, it will be with unity, coz once the Holy Spirit leads there are no mistakes, there is no disorder, and if a cute young twenty something who likes to wear T-shirts with no bra starts showing up, sooner of later Jesus will tell her that's not appropriate for a place the community deems a holy place of meeting, or after we been meeting for 5 hours, guess what, we might be hungry, so lets order Pizza, sit at the plastic tables, then we become community, then we become the family of God, then people are not alone, then we realize what a precious thing it is to break bread as one.
Now it might be, we have another young woman, start to be part of this faith community, and she says a "woman has a right to choose", would I rebuke her? First I'd ask if she believes in freedom of speech? "of course neil"...."ok, cool, coz I think abortion is murder".
she'll say thats "your opinion"
to which I will say, "true, but it's also God's opinion, read thru your Bible, you'll see.
at that point, either one or two things will happen, she'll think "what a bunch of judgematic Christians" or " Maybe I better read the Bible...
okay I blithered enough.
bro, if you thought that was all a tad fake, didnt you catch a gander of Ted Haggard when he was cornered and denying his sin?
I think Solomons porch should be in our prayers, its a good church.
neil
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Compton
tell ya what bro, I'd love to find 5 maybe 10 fellow believers in my geographical area, rent a nearby storefront, nicely paint One Name on the window: "Jesus", throw down some rugs, get some plastic chairs, folding chairs, wooden benches, some fold up plastic tables for eating and for writing and studying, and start holding meetings,,,some might be prayer meetings, some might be worship sharing meetings, some healing meetings, but I'll tell you what, before every meeting, one of us would be asking and inviting the Holy Spirit to come in and lead the meeting, and here's what it would say for Sunday
Amen Bartle. If this is what the Emergent church was I would be happy to identify myself with them!
You are right about labels. Yet it's how we organize ideas...I wish it wasn't so. For instance the emergent Christian calls themselves "emergent." Why is there a need? (I'm glad you asked ;-)) I'll tell you why...because the Emergent Church is founded in critique of the "Evangelical" church. By this critical seperation it has called itself different...but I don't see the meaningful difference. The church is still shipwrecked in America.
the whole things about the label "emergent", or "emerging church", its much the same baggage that "evangelical" has with it now.
You see I'm in agreement with you on this more then anything. Let's stop writing books about how the other guy isn't doing it right and we are...only to form our own gobbley-gook movement that eventually leads to another movement deeply rooted in critique of us.
I say this as an early but dissapointed advocate of the Emergent Church:
The dissapointment I have with the Emergent message isn't their music, their icons, their "missional" statements or their politics. It's their calculated ommission of the Gospel message: Unless you repent of your sins and believe in Jesus for salvation, and become born again into the life and body of Christ, you will not be made fit for heaven. To this day, I have never heard a major Emergent thinker express a burden for the eternal reality of that message. In fact, they dance around it or shun it because it's too unilateral for the 'post-modern' people (sic) they are trying to reach. Just this week I heard a radio advert from a new Emergent church in Columbus opening up...thier leadership explains that they cannot preach the gospel directly because such naked propositionalism will turn seekers off. Instead, they resort to abstract post-modern jargon to explain how different that they are from other churches that bore and condemn you...
To paraphrase a recent politican...it used to be that we agreed in principle but differed on policies. But today we differ in principle. The Emergent leaders like McClaren, Wallace, or Kimball wouldn't agree in principle at all with Whitefield, Wesley, or Spurgeon.
If I am wrong I will gladly be corrected and thankful for the education. If I am right, then the emergent church is hardly a church at all, though they are some sincere, compassionate, and intelligent people who justifiably feel Jesus has been slandered by the current church in America. However justified their complaint is, and however attractive their critique is to the younger generation, I find them to be just another mirage in the desert.
The Evangelical and the Emergent are both living in a dry land awaiting true spiritual revival.
Blessings,
MC
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tjservant
and if a cute young twenty something who likes to wear T-shirts with no bra starts showing up, sooner of later Jesus will tell her that's not appropriate for a place the community deems a holy place
Many people in situations like that “girl” are not currently “talking” to Jesus and might not be convicted for months. This does not mean we should tolerate such immodest and indecent attire. This is a huge stumbling block for some and should be dealt with sooner not later. This goes for the men as well as women. It would need to be done with tact, but done none the less. The shepherd should watch out for his flock, and this is part of it.
Very interesting thread I have learned much from all responses.
TJ
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Yeshuasboy
Seems to me that some folk can't tell the difference between a "believer" and a Christian. And to that I say, "God help you", because surely I can't do the work of the Holy Ghost. Only God Himself can do God's work, and the more the "church" tries to help God the more the church fails.
There is only One Way. Just One glorious, beautiful absolute Truth.
To me, the only "good" church is one that reveals the "Biblical" Christ Jesus. And, to me, this can only be done by the Holy Spirit.
...and take a look at the fruit manifested in this video. Is it Christ Jesus or not?
Only God can give the increase on the foundation of Christ Jesus.
richie
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strawrifle
Hi Neil, as i stated before i am sympathetic with what their trying to do,to a point..Ive posted else where i have had a very turbulent time as a Christian..I'm farrrrrr from perfect,far less then anyone shown in the clip..
I recently started listening to Todd Wagner sermons out of Watermark and the sense of community is amazing..Its a issue that's kept me away from Church for a long time!!To find a Church where you really are brothers and sisters must be an amazing feeling..
Of course i agree Ted was fake..Im from england we don't really buy into that tv stuff over here ;-)
All i'm saying is,i have some concerns that their experiences(like mine) COULD be molding what they now see as the real Gospel..I think that COULD be dangerous..
you & i are not that far apart here bro GB
andy
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strawrifle
ps Bartle as you addressed that post to me..I just wanted to say i agree with what you said about the girl and her clothes..I'd be the last person to criticize someone over morals or modesty,with my past..
aj
edited to say i guess i am criticizing them over morals about the cussing... drattttttttttttt :-P
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Goldminer
I am sort of jumping into all your conversations, but this is the first I've seen this thread.
I don't know if any of you know it, but Art Katz and the Burning Bush www.benisrael.org live in Christian community. They have large numbers of believers living in one house and Art says the church needs that community because, just as one of the women on the video said, it causes you to be seen in all your flaws and sins and gives opportunity for iron to sharpen iron and for our heart issues to be addressed.
I will say no more about this because I have never even heard of this ministry before, but I too would want to know where they stand on holiness, abortion, homosexuality and others absolutes of the faith. They seemed to be real close to Woodstock. It brought back shades of my teen years sitting on the beach stoned on LSD. We got together and discussed God and IChing too, we had our fellowship and thought we would die for each other, but didn't give up our vices.
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sermonindex
I been thinking about what you wrote, pondering, and here's the conclusion that I come to in my heart:
they're in hell already, they live in hell, the broken families, the drug addictions,the failed relationships, the empty one night stands, the hate, the envy, the malice, the slander, the emptiness, the club life, the booze, the low wage nine to five "straight" job, when they all desire to be artists or musicians. They live in hell already and they know it in their deepest hearts. They are empty, hungry and searching.
So why instead of making the opening salvo, how they are not "fit for heaven", why not speak and live and show the first words that Jesus said, "Repent, the Kingodm of Heaven is near you", make them envious of so great a salvation, BY OUR LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER, engendered by, through and for Jesus.
A lot of them don't even BELIEVE that the Bible is the Word of God, so quoting out of it will get you nowhere. So show them Jesus (I'm not lecturing at you Mike, just thinking out loud)Show them how Jesus was not only Son of God borne of woman, but a true for real revolutionary.
They all love Che Guevara, they don't really know who is, but they liked that darn shirt, Che Guevara used a gun, killed people, plotted to kill people. Jesus said there is no greater thing than a man lay down his life for his friends, you ready to lay down your life? for real, to die now, for a friend? Are you ready to be slapped and not slap back but to offer up the other check? Are you ready to forgive the parent that raised you wrong, beat you, hit you or worse? Are you ready to forgive them? and then call them on the phone, and I say, I love you?
are you ready to spend that $50 bucks you were gonna spend at the club tommorrow night filling yourself full of Long Island Ice Tea's or tequilla, and go out and buys socks and gloves for the multitude of homeless walking the streets and tell them you love them, because if Jesus loves me, He loves you? You ready to stop screeching about the ill effects of globalism, give up your comfy life in the empire and go work in an Aids orphanage in Rwanda, and while your loving the unloved there, to tell these wee ones about your Father, and no his name is not Mr Gen X or Ms. I love to do good, because I'm a good person", but my Fathers Name is Jesus, His Name is Yahweh, His Name is "I am", and thats why I wanna care for you, beacuse I wanna do His work, because He told me to "Turn, beacuse the Kingodm of God is near you, are you ready to be a real, for real born again revolutionary?
look around, everybody around you is unholy, they use their bodies in unholy ways, put all sorts of junk into body mind and soul, they're the squares, because what they are into is pack behavior, but if you say "no, Jesus is my All in All, and I'm gonna save the act of love for the one mate that God will bring me, and when we marry, become one in God's eye and I get pregnant, I'm not going to consider "my choice", but to bring a new soul into the world, and love this baby and raise this beauty right.
Do you want to be a REAL revolutionary?, thats what I would say.
and pack behavior isnt only confined to the club kids, the young ones, its much the same in the mainstream church, gottta look good, gotta sound good, gotta mouth the same platitudes, and the same verbiage, say "praise the Lord" at the right times, gotta tick off the same "doctrine" A B C, out of rote, gotta call yourself a calvinist or an arminianist, whatever those are, heaven forbid you should show yourself vunerable or weak or stumbling or in need of an ear to listen. Heaven forbid, you should want to spend a service face down on the floor of the church, cratered and broken, weeping and moaning, Heaven forbid you should ever read a Bible other than the King James.
church has become like going to google and punching place a to place b and the google engine will spit out concise by the number directions. If a person is confessing Jesus because they dont wannna go to hell, then they're not holding the Living Stone.
thats what i got to say.
C
Compton
Bartle,
I thank you for your heart felt post. Although you addressed it to me, for the record I should state I don't drink Long Island Ice Teas at the club and I certainly have no ambition to be a revolutionary.
And I am too much of an introverted guy to fire "opening salvos" at people. The language "being made fit for heaven" is an expression I picked up from Jonathan Edwards...because it makes sense to Christians. (That's who I'm talking to presently I presume...)
Goodness...I wonder how much of the disagreement and contention we feel around here is due to the presumtpion of our imaginations? Are we accustomed to taking all our hurts and dissapointments from the evangelical church and wrapping them into one persona called 'the evangelical Christian?' As if every Evangelical Christian we meet is guilty of all the hurts and offenses we've accumulated from the church over a life time?
By the way, I completely agree with your ideals...but rest assured I come no where close to measuring up to them. And if I did...it would only be brief archs up into the spiritual stratosphere...and I certainly wouldn't be boasting of such rare behavior in here. Just in case there were any doubts about my testimony here at SI...let me confirm them. All your discernments about my conservative evangelical leanings are true.
If you think that's bad, just consider...that's my best side... imagine the parts you don't know about me. (But at least I still don't drink Long Islands ;-))
Blessings,
MC
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sermonindex
bro, that dialgue I got up into, is what i would be saying IN THE MIDST of one of these po mo emrgent churches, not to you. I was kind of sermonizing my thoughts to an imaginary crowd. I hear dialogue I hear sermons in my mind and in my heart, wasnt directed to you...lol
neil
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Compton
Well to be honest I did see that you were careful to say you weren't directing the post at me...yet I did feel I needed to stand in proxy for the Evangelicals...if not for the emergents. Wer'e not all SUV-driving stock brokers sipping fruit coolers while we argue the finer points of our doctrine. ;-)
You know...sometimes I wonder what would happen if an Emergent Church merged with an Evangelical church. They could have the Evangelicals spearhead the orthodoxy and let the Emergents spearhead the orthopraxy.
It's foolishly simplistic I know.
Well, bless you brother. You love as big as you provoke.
MC
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sermonindex
course I wasnt directing it at you dear brother!!
c'mon! We dont play that. and would you please do me a favor? (smile) Dont capitalize "evangelical" or "emergent church"?
you wrote:
sometimes I wonder what would happen if an Emergent Church merged with an Evangelical church.
some do, they just aint gonna be pigeonholed into a ecceliastical box, and why should they?
you got enough neo-pharisees out there ready to take pot shots at 'em.,.....
God bless you too, richly and in love, neil
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myfirstLove
I hope this article helps.
This was taken from one of the past post on s.i. written by Brent Barnett.
Lisa's comment- Man being elevated above God can be seen clearly on the video strawrifle shared with us. Brothers and sisters this should grieve our hearts! It is clear in the video that the emerging church is making a God to suit their own fleshly desire. That is called idolatry! The video also shows how these people put their feelings above God's word. Much into feelings and not the truth. This is a danger that I see in many artsy christians. The pastor mentions nothing about God's word, but only what the people want. Much danger! This was what my ex pastor drifted into, the emergent scene. I am very familiar with this scene. It is a very dangerouse scene and need to be expose for its darkness! (eph. 5:11).
God bless, Lisa
Three Major Problems with the Philosophy Behind the Emerging Church
Problem #1:
Culture (i.e. postmodernism) dictates church practice (i.e. methodology).
This is seen in the fact that the emerging church relies upon incense, art, images, and experiences to draw near to God and to worship Him. God says to worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24), but the emerging church finds ways other than what is described in the Bible to worship God. Worship consists of praising God through words and phrases that form coherent thoughts and propositions. It is not an emptying of the mind or any kind of mysticism. Yet the emerging church is a breeding ground of contemplative spirituality. Some use labyrinths to draw near to God. Others marvel at pictures that they paint. Others pray breath prayers which are vain repetitions which seek to empty the mind and literally hear a word from God. These are postmodern methods to “worship” the God of the Bible. The problem is that they are actually old Roman Catholic mystic methods, from which the Protestant church distanced itself. In an effort to be cutting edge, new, and conforming to culture, the emerging church is going backwards in time, repeating mistakes of history. This is why the Bible must dictate worship and not culture. If the church allows the surrounding culture to dictate its practice and means of worship, it will likely be assimilated into that culture, thereby losing its identity, power, and worth.
Problem #2:
Theology is in a state of flux, changing as experiences, personal preferences, and needs change.
Simple words and phrases such as “Jesus is God” and “by faith alone and grace alone” have sent people to their death as martyrs. They are the difference between saving faith and an eternity in hell. These beliefs separate cults from the true church of Jesus Christ. Yet for the emerging church, theology is not something that we can be dogmatic about. They say that “good” people have come to different conclusions over the years, so why bother to make conclusive statements about theology at all? Thus, from their perspective, theology is not something concrete, absolute, and authoritative. In the past, people believed one way or another. Somebody was right, and somebody was wrong. Now nobody seems to know who is right and who is wrong, and, stranger still, that doesn’t seem to bother anybody. This is the spirit of antichrist, tolerating anything and everything and standing upon nothing. The church is the pillar and support of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15), and truth is a body of doctrine as laid forth in the Bible through the Person of Jesus Christ. Without a confession of theology, there is no church. Thus, the emerging church is, in many ways, just an appeal to postmodernists who like to shape their religion and their “God” based upon how they feel on a given day.
Problem #3:
Preaching is outdated because this generation does not like someone speaking to them authoritatively, especially if they dare to tell them that they are in the wrong.
This belief flows out of the previous two. If methods can be changed, why do we still need to preach? Some churches get rid of the pulpit because it is intimidating and authoritative. The emerging church gets rid of preaching altogether. Somebody might sit amongst a circle of peers and share what they think God is all about for them that particular day or week. They might reference a Scripture which relates to their journey, but their experience and feelings are front and center and not the Word of God. If somebody actually shares by standing up and opening up the Bible, they do not exhort or call to change and action. They narrate a story or read a passage of Scripture and stop. There is no need to exhort, rebuke, or call to action. It is not about conforming to an authoritative statement of Scripture but rather using Scripture to fortify fleshly desires of a journey that we take on our terms. The emerging church disdains preaching, because preaching asserts that there is a right and wrong and makes it sound as if the preacher actually knows the truth, implying that those who disagree are wrong. Such a reality is intolerable to the emerging church. The irony is that they can call preaching “wrong” or “bad”, but preachers are not allowed the same freedom in making a judgment based on the Bible. This is the problem with postmodern philosophies. Postmodern philosophies can’t be argued if one is to be consistent.
Conclusion
At the end of the day, the emerging church doesn’t even know what it is or what it believes. All is in flux, doubt reigns supreme, and experience and feeling are the rule. The funny thing is that the emerging church does seem to have some core beliefs, the largest being a commitment to the environment. There is an unwritten, but popular, belief that finally mankind will get it right as Jesus imparts grace to all. This earth will be our future home, and thus we had better take good care of it. That all men will be saved one way or the other by grace is called the New Perspective on Paul, propagated by N.T. Wright. Some of these issues can’t be attributed directly to the emerging church or any church in particular. This is because what emerging church leaders and attendees believe varies from leader to leader, from person to person, from church to church, and from day to day. Yet certain philosophies make the rounds, this being one of them.
The emerging church is a contradiction and an ethereal entity. It is always unsure of itself, keeping up a continual “conversation” (one of their favorite words) but never coming to any real conclusions. It is not a biblical movement, because it denies the authority of the Word of God and elevates man to an improper place, one which is higher than God.
Will the movement last? As long as this generation likes it, it will. Yet only one thing will ultimately prevail. Cultures change, philosophies change, and movements come and go, but the Word of the Lord endures forever (1 Peter 1:25). Praise Him for His absolute nature and utter consistency. God is very clear about who He is, what He believes, and what He expects. Those who don’t conform to His revealed Word will be judged by it.
When deceptions increase and their level of deceitfulness along with them (2 Timothy 3:13), we must always turn to the Word of God, because only it remains unchangeable. When a movement like the emerging church attacks the fact that logic is valid and that the Scriptures can even be understood, we had better be wary. God doesn’t want to undermine His own Word. Why would He have bothered giving it to us in the first place if we can’t understand it? When all is in supposed flux, God and His Word are immutable. Though people throughout history have tried to undermine the Word of God, God preserves it, and He always will. It is time to have a “conversation” with God over our sin in repentance through an appropriation of His Word.
By Brent Barnett
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strawrifle
Hi,i just wanted to thank everyone for their comments..Also for being so friendly and polite!
Watching the clip again,i'm left feeling were all works in progress..For to long ive had a very low standards for myself,but strict for others..I seem to of become 80% Sinner and 20% Puritan i'm afraid..
GB
aj
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sermonindex
I WANT to say that is the worst post I have ever read on this forum, but I won't.
instead I want to ask two questions:
what do you mean by "artsy christians", could you define this label?
secondly, if you could be so transparent and honest, could you testify and describe your prior experience with what you call the "emerging church", and the error of your ex-pastor, and if I could be so bold, can you describe the place, the church that God has you now in?
respectfully, neil
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sermonindex
yes. we are all works in progress, but one thing remains unchanged, the religious man, the "white-washed tomb" still has that stone in his hand, itching to cave the skull in, of those who don't say "yes and amen" to his religiousity and those forms of worship he deems "apostate".......and brother, that stone the religious man clutches aint the "Living Stone" that Peter spoke of in his first epistle. It's quite the opposite.
watch.
C
Compton
would you please do me a favor? (smile) Dont capitalize "evangelical" or "emergent church"?
No problem...except in those cases when we discuss historic Evangelical Christianity, dating back to Whitefield and Wesely, which is a far cry from the modern evangelical church. ;-)
the New Perspective on Paul, propagated by N.T. Wright.
This may sound like a diversion...but I think it might relate here.
Can someone please explain N. T. Wright's major ideas in a simple and unbiased manner? I can't seem to get a clear perspective on the new perspective.
Thanks,
MC
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myfirstLove
I was not surprise to be attacked by you.
I WANT to say that is the worst post I have ever read on this forum, but I won't.
Bartle, you just said it.
What was your intent in posting the comment above? Because you wanted to make sure I knew this or else you wouldn't post that comment at all.
When I mention artsy christians, I meant many post modern professing christians worship art, just like it shows in the video.
secondly, if you could be so transparent and honest, could you testify and describe your prior experience with what you call the "emerging church", and the error of your ex-pastor,
I believe that Brent Barnett's article describes my experience with the emergent church well.
and if I could be so bold, can you describe the place, the church that God has you now in?
The fellowship I'm in now is certainly not perfect, but is not boldly commiting harlotry like most churches today.
The video says it all, and it baffles me that you cannot see the darkness of the emergent church. The people on the video expose themselves by the words they say. Can you not see that they worship a different Jesus? Can you not see that man is the center? Did you not hear that the pastor was more concern about what people wanted instead of standing on the truth of the Word?
The emergent church love the name of Jesus, but despises His cross!
Rob Bell openly shares how he does not see the need to preach on repentance and sin. He really believes that preaching like this is hate! I guess, he thinks that the Jesus in the bible is full of hate, so he makes up a different jesus that loves you no matter what, even if you are in known sins and don't care to be delivered from it.
1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
It does not take a super christian to see that the video was filled with love of the world, unless you yourself are full of the world too.
James 4:4-5
4 Adulterers and[a] adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
Emergent churches believe in using the things of the world to draw people, especially the post mod. gen. My ex pastor was always into the new hot things/styles so he can use it for the church. He would watch movies and encourage other leaders to watch movies to find out what this generation is into so that he can use it to lure them into church. Emergent churches are really big into art in the most worldly way because they know that this generation is very much into art. My old church worshipped art. it was so disgusting. My old church was so into the emergent thing that it brought the world into the church and lust became prevalent. Because emergent church doesn't believe in preachiing about sin, the church fell into deep harlotry. Women were wearing loose clothing and the men loved it so! They believe in using slang and curse words in their preaching because thats what the post mods are into. They openly preach about sex using terms that should stay in the bedroom and describing in away that you won't believe! I can say with confidence that the emergent church is not of God, but the devil! I warn others to stay away from their doctrine and do not get involve with them. It is demonic!
Please read Brent Barnett's article again. He hits it straight clear about the emergent church.
I am warning with much love, stay away from this group, unless you are going to witness to them or called by God to blow the trumpet and cry aloud and show them their sins and their need to repent.
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sermonindex
I was not surprise to be attacked by you.
Im sorry if you believed I attacked "you", and maybe the reason you weren't surprised that I posted in response of the absolutely poor choice of words, "artsy christian", because if you have read any of my postings, you know I make my living from art.
I did not say that was the worst post I've ever read on this forum, I said "I WANT to, but I won't"...I believe there are much much worse.
But the worst thing is, I opened the door for you to get transparent, real, honest, open about yourself, but you didnt. You didnt provide any testimony about your experience with what you term the "emergent church". You hurl accusations about poeple "worshiping" art, and how your fellowship is not "perfect", but its not a "harlot".
okay......if you dont want to get honest, bare your heart, talk about you and your experiences, okay. If all you want to do is to offer your opinion on how apostate and backslidden and wrong with those in what is called the "emergent church, okay, go for it. If you want to heap your self righteouness scorn on those in the video, okay .
Let me ask you a question, lets say that you, were a greeter at the local Wal Mart, and you go to your daily job, and ask the Lord, "fill me with Holy Spirit so that everyone I say "Welcome to Wal Mart!" sees you, please Lord let me reflect your love and shine Your Glory, and do my job to the best of my ability for You"
are you worshipping Wal Mart or are you worshipping God?
Its the same way with art, not only is it commerce, a job, but making art for and to the Glory of God, and it can be worship.
I feel you dont understand that, and I feel you dont want to be honest and real, only to castigate and heap scorn upon those you deem backslidden, worldly and apostate.
Don't worry, you're not alone, there's plenty that agree with you.
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myfirstLove
Bartle, what do you mean by honest and real? maybe, I didn't go into too much of my feelings?
I shared with you some that happend in my old church. Read my post again.
If you can get a hold of all my posts on s.i. you will see that I have shared a lot about my old church and what I went thru.
Those aren't accusations I hurled. It is very true what I said about the emergent church. I was in it. I was part of my pastors "inner circle". so I knew a lot about it. That was something that my pastor encourage his "inner circle leaders" to study and learn the ways of the emergent church. I refer you to Brent Barnett's teaching on it because I am not gifted at teaching. Brent explains the emergent way better than I can.
When I said artsy christians, I meant christians who are into art. The artsy was not meant to be a bad word. I didn't say God doesn't use art. I said that the emergent people worship art. If not all, many.
Now when paul says all cretans are liars, did he mean are creatans, or maybe most?
Here's a story I want to share with you to help you understand what backsliding is and how most christians are in it right now.
I just met this new christian at a prayer meeting. He's been saved for 3 months. You could tell this was a true conversion. He use to be into drugs and hanging out with murderers. He shared with us when He gave His life to Jesus, God delivered him from addiction immediately! This guy is so on fire for God! Its beautiful! He talks about the cross and how He just want to totally give his life to Christ no matter the cost! It was awesome and refreshing to hear this brother and you sense a real fire in Him filled with so much faith! Just looking at him can make me understand why faith pleases God!
He was sharing how he was witnessing at a bowling place. He handed a guy a track and ask if he knew Jesus. This guy answered back and said yes, I wrestle for Jesus! Now, this friend of mine is a new christian and was sharing how absurd that is to wrestle for Christ and knew that this was not from God. My friend doesn't know much about the bible, but man, you could really tell he loves Jesus and is willing to give it all to Christ, that Jesus is His First Love. No one had to tell him that wresling for Jesus is not of Christ and how very wordly that is. The sad thing is in today's christianity, alot of christians would really have to ponder over this, to ask the Lord if wrestling for Him is of God!
This is what happends when christians are backsliding and loose their First Love, they cannot tell evil from good and good from evil anymore.
Ezekiel 22:26
26 Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.
This reminds me so much why we need revival. It is weeping and fasting time!
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strawrifle
Hi all, i guess it always best to considered Churches individually,not under the umbrella of a "movement"..
Of course theres dead conservative churches still preaching a solid message,but the church is lifeless..Also I'm sure theres Churches considered emergent very solid and very much alive..The one main character for an alive people/church as to be Holiness
I guess someone like David Wilkerson would be considered conservative, but Time Square Church is ALIVE,as His Paul Washer..You can hear it in their voice their passion..maybe you can hear it at this church to?..
For the first time ever i heard a re-telling of Sinners in the hands of a angry God yesterday,,It freaked me out!! I just wonder how it would go down at SP
andy
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sermonindex
I know this comment may seem to be a little out of order, to some people, but the girl in only a T shirt has been on my mind.....
You know, if you go to many places round the world, a T shirt would be a luxury...?
Also, do you know that bra-wearing has been associated in one study (old study), with an increase in breast cancer?
I am not advocating [i]immodest
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tjservant
I think it is more key that a person is covered, than than we judge them by their apparent lack of underwear...
You are correct. A fig leaf is better than nothing, but I would rather there be several fig leaves.
As for judging…judgement has nothing to do with it…they should have a decent amount of clothes on.
We are probably looking at it from different angles. I’m talking about the types that “know” how they are dressed. Their look is not derived from ignorance or innocence.
God Bless
TJ
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Compton
For the first time ever i heard a re-telling of Sinners in the hands of a angry God yesterday,,It freaked me out!! I just wonder how it would go down at SP
It would be contray to their instrinsic character... impossible for an emergent church to have anythng to do with Jonthan Edwards and still remain emergent. It would be like holding kryptonite.
Alive or deadness is not even a relevant measurement regarding the emergent church...they reject the infallibility of scripture so all other bets our off.
In case your wondering, this is not my slander...this is their confession. Read McClaren and Wallace. Some do good works and so we hope they are "alive"...and maybe some are but the movement is on the wrong vector in my opinion.
It's too bad really...they could've used their momentum to do some real reform, but instead have gone off the rails before they even got started. Currently being emergent is defined by being theoligcally liberal...the moment you become theologically conservative (refraining from higher critical perspectives of scripture) you cease to be emergent.
I'm looking for one emergent pastor who believes anything close to what jonathan Edwards preached...a single exception to this Gospel deconstructionist trend in the emergent community...although such an exception wouldn't really be a part of the community for very long.
Can someone point me to one?
MC
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myfirstLove
I was about to post again until I saw Compton's post. Very well said!
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tjservant
It would be like holding kryptonite.
You must be talking about the inerrant Word of God in the hands of a sinner.
TJ
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strawrifle
I'm looking for one emergent pastor who believes anything close to what jonathan Edwards preached...a single exception to this Gospel deconstructionist trend in the emergent community...although such an exception wouldn't really be a part of the community for very long.
Mark Driscoll? i know hes moved away a little..But i still think he as some emergent ideas on culture etc..though he may confirm what you said about not being part of the community for long..
aj
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Compton
Mark Driscoll, like many sincere Christian/evangelicals had originally shared emergent Christianity's critique of 'traditional evangelicism" but it seems he realized that the cure is worse then the desease....
"In the mid-1990s I was part of what is now known as the Emerging Church and spent some time traveling the country to speak on the emerging church in the emerging culture on a team put together by Leadership Network called the Young Leader Network. But, I eventually had to distance myself from the Emergent stream of the network because friends like Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt began pushing a theological agenda that greatly troubled me. Examples include referring to God as a chick, questioning God's sovereignty over and knowledge of the future, denial of the substitutionary atonement at the cross, a low view of Scripture, and denial of hell which is one hell of a mistake."
You must be talking about the inerrant Word of God in the hands of a sinner.
Well I suppose the analogy could fit! The Word does break us of our strength! I was talking about how a sermon like Jonathan Edwards exposes the deeper spiritual impotence of emergent 'gospel'. This impotence refuses to acknowledge the judgement of God, and the need for a new creation, and the exclusive atonement found in the cross of Christ...spelling irrelevance to the heart of man inspite of their fluffy rhapsody on relevance.
MC
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strawrifle
Hi i thought this audio debate might be very helpful..Its between Bob Dewaay and Doug Pagitt last year..
http://web.mac.com/pagitt/iWeb/Doug%20Pagitt.Com/PagittCast/PagittCast.html
Its in 3 parts called Emerging Church and Postmodern Spirituality Debate..
aj
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