Hebrews 6:4-6 - What Does It Mean?

Christinyou said this [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14567&forum=36&10]here.[/url]

Heb 6: is another proof that man cannot loose God's salvation given by Him, authored by Him and prepared His own sacrifice, that those who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, which is revealed by God Only, they are saved to the utmost.

Heb 6 is always the first place those that don't believe that their salvation is eternal and fixed in Christ Jesus. They take it out of context and use only 4-6 to prove eternal security false. Also, according to the Bible, if we could lose our salvation, then it would be lost forever, because Christ only died once. Hebrews 6:4-6 is an often misunderstood passage, which strongly supports the doctrine of eternal security in two ways: it implies that Christ’s sacrifice must be sufficient for all sins, and states that if it were possible for a person to lose their salvation, it would be forever lost. According to this passage, if a person could do something that cost them their salvation (which they cannot), then it would be “impossible” for them to be re-redeemed. The impossible is not for renewing but for assurance that one cannot loose their salvation.

If you surround :4-6 with :1-3 and finish it with :7 you will see that eternal salvation is of God and not possible for man to sin a sin unto death. "Don't pray for it". Verse seven: Hebrews 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: The saved are the son's of God planted in good ground and the rain falling bring forth meet, fruit, for them by whom it is dressed. Who is the Vine Dresser? Of Course it is God. What is the blessing from God, the only true blessing that is for all those that believe, believing by the Holy Spirit? The only true blessing from God is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". The one single thing that God has done that we should be praising Him every day and every moment is That Jesus Christ Has been Born Again in the believer and we now have a new life that is full of the blessing of the rain that fall on us to bring forth herbs (grazing land) meet (appropriate and fit) for the Vine Dresser.

The second part in verse :8 is for the unsaved, "nigh", (near at hand) are those that still have a chance to believe or they will go to damnation. They are near at hand to cursing and eternal damnation.

Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Then Paul puts us back into verse :7; Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Notice, "accompany salvation", which takes the believing saint, a son of God into the complete assurance of eternal salvation: Hebrews 6:12-13 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, He sware by Himself. If God sware by Himself who can question His eternal salvation.

Hebrews 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Hebrews 6:18-20 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

What are the two immutable things? The sure reference is to the promise and the oath of God, each of which is firm ground of the assurance of salvation, and in each of which it would be impossible for God to lie. What is the strong consultation of our souls after the immutability of God not able to lie by the promise and the oath: Hebrews 6:19-20 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. This is absolute conformation the Col 1:27 Is true and complete in our salvation, surrounded by what Christ in a person will do; He will make all men perfect that believe the He is the Son of God.
Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Since it is not our life we live any more, we could not possibly loose that which God has promised. Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (And I could loose my salvation which is not mine to begin with, but Gods.) Author's addition

In Christ seeking the things which are above.
Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.::: Phillip

Anyone who believes in eternal security, does not know the definition of the word salvation from the original greek.

It is a thing that is constantly happening, and must be pursued or it will be lost.

Now for the meaning of these verses:
Read especially carefully the underlined phrases, as it will help with understanding the verse.

[b]Hebrews 6:4-6

'4 [u]For it is impossible[/u] for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, [u]and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[/u]

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 [u]If they shall fall away,[/u] to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.'
[/b]

Ok, now let's make this really simple, and read it piece by piece, and see if the writer of Hebrews meant what he wrote. Here goes:

[i]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened[/i]

This means that they have seen/heard the truth.

[i]and have tasted of the heavenly gift[/i]

The "heavenly gift" is Jesus Christ. So they have believed in Christ.

[i]and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost[/i]

They have been filled with God's Holy Spirit.

[i]And have tasted the good word of God[/i]

Good, powerful, convicting...etc...

[i]and the powers of the world to come[/i]

Signs, wonders, miracles, gifts of the Spirit.

[i]If they shall fall away[/i]

Turn from the right path, refuse the truth, very self explanatory, but the writer says it can happen, [u]IF[/u] they shall fall away, it is a condition, not a supposistion.

[i]to renew them again unto repentance;[/i]

They cannot come again unto God.

[i]seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh[/i]

Christ died once for men, not twice. This concept was demonstrated by moses, when he struck the rock twice, and then was not able to enter in to the promise land because of it.

[i]and put him to an open shame.[/i]

Because Christ died only once, and that was enough, to try to have Christ die again would be saying that his sacrifice was not good enough the first time. But the scriptur tells us that He was the perfect sacrifice. Therefore it is a shame to Him.

Ok, now in summary, many people who believe in eternal security don't believe this to mean that someone can lose there salvation, however, as demonstrated by moses, it is certainly possible.

On the other hand, people who do not believe in eternal security immediately jump on backsliders, as though they cannot be saved. But what they don't realize is this:

There are five conditions in these verses that must take place before a person can be considered unreconcilable. Six if you count falling away as a step.

You see, the person who turns away from God, after having experienced all five of these things, does it knowingly, and in direct rebellion to the truth. For he has seen far too much evidence of the truth. And decides that he loves the world and his flesh more than God. And would not want to repent even if he could.

One last thing, the common backslider, has rarely experienced more than two or three of these five things, and is then free from this, and needs simply to go to God and confess his sins and repent.

Ben, Greetings.

If your interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 is correct, then what do you say to Jude?

Jude 1:24-25
"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

[b]He is only able to keep you from falling when you surrender to His will.[/b]

I can go walk off a cliff right now, is that God's will for my life?

No, I must daily surrender to His will, so that I will be found as a good and faithful servant.

You see, God will call us "good and faithful" because we have been. To those that aren't "good and faithful" they will be cast into the fire.

If God simply "kept us from falling", then there is no need that I follow anything in the scriptures past the point of Justification. Because He would do it all for me. He will go save the lost, He will teach the bretheren, and as we all know, Christ is our intercessor, so He will pray for me, no need for me to pray.

It is the very fact that man has the ability to lose his salvation, that Paul says this:

[b]II Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, [u]whether ye be in the faith;[/u] prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?[/b]

Paul believed that we could lose our faith. Have you ever read about Demus?

If God simply "kept us from falling", then there is no need that I follow anything in the scriptures past the point of Justification. Because He would do it all for me. He will go save the lost, He will teach the bretheren, and as we all know, Christ is our intercessor, so He will pray for me, no need for me to pray.

I dare not try to put words into your mouth, but it appears from your response that you 'follow past the point of justification' because you are fearful of losing your salvation.

I will not lose my salvation and I continue to deny myself daily. Why? Because I love Christ and desire to please him.

It is the very fact that man has the ability to lose his salvation, that Paul says this:
II Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

There is nothing wrong with examining yourself and this does not prove that salvation can be lost. I can mean it was never genuine to begin with though.

Jesus says something about eternal security in Matthew 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Jesus says that he never knew those who proclaim to be his followers but are not. He does not say, 'I knew you but you fell away.' This goes back to God's foreknowledge of who will and who will not be saved.

I think the issue here is that many ask Jesus to come into their hearts, but never really go beyond that. Then there is a group of people who press in to recieve all He has for them. The fulness of the Holy Spirit and make Him Lord of their lives. Forsaking all the follow Him.

In this position it would take utter rebellion to walk away from it because of the intimate fellowship these saints had walked in. It would be like spitting on God's precious gift because they are doing it knowingly.

It is a different issue for those who have not pursued God to that depth. They just meander in and out and sin and repent, almost like a whim. These still are able to be restored after repentence because they have never really tasted the deep things of God. I would say it is even questionable if they were ever really saved, therefore salvation is still held out to them.

I see it as God giving you the most beautiful awesome treasure and you going in and partaking of it and enjoying His company and pleasure and then returning to your own vomit. You would have to do that with intent, therefore you are spitting on the beautiful gift of God.

Paul believed that we could lose our faith. Have you ever read about Demus?

2 Timothy 2:9-10, "Do your best to come to me soon. For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia."

My response concerning Demas would be the same as that of Paul's conerning Hymenaeus and Philetus:

2 Timothy 2
14Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. 19But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity."

Also, I would respond as John the Apostle did in 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

Goldminer,

Paul Washer tells the story of being late to a meeting because he was physically run over by a Semi. The people at the meeting did not believe him because they said, 'You cannot have a meeting like that with a Semi and not be radically changed.' His reply was, 'Same way with God.'

I dare not try to put words into your mouth, but it appears from your response that you 'follow past the point of justification' because you are fearful of losing your salvation.

I will not lose my salvation and I continue to deny myself daily. Why? Because I love Christ and desire to please him.

I follow past the point of Justification because if I do not, then I am the same as the servant who took the money that the master gave him and then went out and buried it. He was called a wicked servant, and cast into outer darkness.

I am not fearful that I will lose my salvation because I daily place my hope and trust in Jesus Christ. But I do know that if I do not do the things that I am commanded to do, then I am not saved, or at the very least, I am a wicked servant.

There is nothing wrong with examining yourself and this does not prove that salvation can be lost. I can mean it was never genuine to begin with though.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with examining yourself, but according to eternal security it is an irrelevant act, either you are in the faith and you know it, or you are out of the faith and don't care. So why doit?

But I must disagree on this next point of salvation, Paul says: "prove your own selves"

Why Would Paul tell them to examine themselves? If they were in the faith, it would be obvious to them and everyone around them, and to Paul as well. So then he commanded them to do a pointless thing. If they were out of the faith, then what were they doing felloshipping with the believers anyway?

You say that your salvation is not in jeopardy, yet how can you, prove that you are saved?

What is this way that shows how you are saved for sure?

How do you know that tomorrow you won't just walk away from God, and He will say he never knew you?

In essence, according to what you believe, even your eternal security is not secure. Because you yourself may be a false convert. You have no way of knowing until the day of your meeting God.

Jesus says that he never knew those who proclaim to be his followers but are not. He does not say, 'I knew you but you fell away.' This goes back to God's foreknowledge of who will and who will not be saved.

One last thing, the word "knew", what is it's greek meaning?

It is intimacy, intimacy comes from relationship, not from Justification. Justification produces the necessary elements to produce a relationship.

I would like to ask a question here, how is man justified?
We know it is by faith in Christ alone.

There are no works of which I can bring into the courtroom of God and hold up as evidence to support His justification of me. Now unfortunately we live in a time where we have blurred the lines of Theological terminology and we assume "saved" to mean "justified".
Therefore we say salvation may be lost, when what we are referring to is the state of acceptance with God ie because of sin, God will now reject you.

Now please bear with me for a moment. If a man is justified through faith in Christ, what works did he do to achieve that state? Did he need to keep the Law? Of course we know that by the deeds of the Law no flesh shall be justified. so whence comes this justification, or declaration of our righteousness? From faith in the Justifier.

But now some may say, but if a man does not behave thus, he is not a Christian, or he is in danger of losing his salvation. Again though what grounds are we accepted by, what grounds are we justified by? Of course faith must have works, but are the works all the same for every person, so that one is not a Christian because they do not pray more than 5 minutes a day, or do not open air preach? No, the works may look different, thus we are to examine ourselves, but not to the point of dejection, but rather to make sure of our faith.

So now what is salvation? It can be many things. Deliverance from the power and penalty of sin is one. Delverance from circumstances is another. Yet salvation is a multi-faced thing. For example at the moment of new birth, we are saved from the penalty of sin or justified, then we are saved from the power of sin, or sanctified, and of course at the end of our Earthly pilgrimage we shall be saved from the prescence of sin, or glorified. So we are "saved", we are being "saved", and we shall be "saved".
In regard to this very thing Paul wrote this
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: [b]and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

So now let us ask the question, can we lose our [b]justification[/b] as this is the basis by which I am accepted by God in the Beloved.

I have struggled, and still do (alot), simply accepting that Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the Law, and He is the Perfect One, yet God sees me "in Him". God loves me because of Christ. I fear many have fallen under the ideology that they must continue on in morals of their own making to somehow present this before God, but does that not put Christ and His work aside, and create a "justification" by works?

We must bask in the light of God's acceptance of us apart from our works, and in spite of our works, then it truly becomes "amazing grace"

I believe it means the same thing that Hebrews 10:26-29.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with examining yourself, but according to eternal security it is an irrelevant act, either you are in the faith and you know it, or you are out of the faith and don't care. So why doit?

The doctrine of Eternal Security or as I prefer it called 'Perseverance of the Saints' is that those who are called to salvation by God will remain in communion by God. It is not a matter of works that keeps a person in the state of salvation, it is a matter of the faithfulness of God.

Now, to the person who simply 'walks away' from God. How can one be born again (John 3) and then walk away? How can one be in Christ/a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17) and then walk away? How can one who has been saved...by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5) simply walk away? How can one be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7) and walk away?

The doctrine of eternal insecurity is a fallacy and stems from a misinterpretation of a few verses of scripture.

One last thing, the word "knew", what is it's greek meaning? It is intimacy, intimacy comes from relationship, not from Justification. Justification produces the necessary elements to produce a relationship.

Are you saying that those who are justified are not brought into a relationship? Romans 8:29-30 tells us that every single person who is justified is also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Also, the knowledge Jesus was referring to in Matthew 7 is the knowledge of salvation. Romans 8:29 speaks of this as known before the world began. So, how is it possible that Jesus could know someone in salvation, but yet say that he never knew them in salvation? Is this not a contradiction?

I fear many have fallen under the ideology that they must continue on in morals of their own making to somehow present this before God, but does that not put Christ and His work aside, and create a "justification" by works?

AMEN!

I believe it means the same thing that Hebrews 10:26-29.

"26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?"

Anyone who deliberately sins is not a child of God.

1 John 2 says,
"3And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 3 says,
"4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

The most relevant phrase to this discussion is "No one who makes a practice of deliberately sinning has either seen him or known him."

The doctrine of Eternal Security or as I prefer it called 'Perseverance of the Saints' is that those who are called to salvation by God will remain in communion by God. It is not a matter of works that keeps a person in the state of salvation, it is a matter of the faithfulness of God.

So then you are in contol of nothing that you do?

Rebellion is an attitude of the heart, not an outward act. It will produce outward acts, but it in and of itself is an inward attitude of the heart.

You are suggesting that once a person has believed in God, he is not capable of rebelling, and turning away from God. Yet there is even a mention of an unforgiveable sin in the new testament. Does that unforgiveable sin apply only to the already damned? If so, what is the purpose of even mentioning it? It must apply to believers.

Now, to the person who simply 'walks away' from God. How can one be born again (John 3) and then walk away? How can one be in Christ/a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17) and then walk away? How can one who has been saved...by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5) simply walk away? How can one be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7) and walk away?

[b]By complete and utter rebellion.[/b]

How did satan, who lived in God's presence, chief among the angels, most beautiful of all God's creations, get up and walk away?

[b]By complete and utter rebellion.[/b]
God did not force satan to sin, God did not place rebellion in Satan's heart.

Do you believe that for God to give man complete and total free will, and by free will, I mean the real definition of free will, perfect freedom, without restraint...etc, that He would somehow be out of control?

One other thing I would like to see you address is the issue of Moses striking the rock twice and not entering into the promiseland because of it.

We know that the promiseland was a typecast of heaven, and we know that the rock was a typecast of Christ. So why then was Moses not allowed to enter into the promiseland?

Let me clarify my stance on Justification:

Justification comes by grace through faith in Christ alone, and is not by any works of our own.

In Christ's sacrifice he paid for the sins of the whole world. Therefore Justification is offered to all men.

However the issue I am addressing is that if a man after the point of being justified by Christ chooses to rebell against God, he is perfectly able to choose damnation for himself, and God will not stop him.

The contrary opinion here is that first, no man would even try to be justified that would eventually rebel in that fashion.

And second, that anyone who is justified, is incapable of rebellion and turning away from God.

What I cannot understand is how anyone who believes this has any guarantee at all that they have been justified. Because there is no telling if they won't at some point prove themselves "to not be a Christian" by leaving the faith. Showing that they were never really saved.

Bro Ben, in my eyes, a man will not seek to be justified unless the Holy Spirit has convicted him of his sin. Otherwise how would a man know he was a sinner, and in need of being justified before God? As Jesus said the Holy Spirit would convict the world of sin, righteousnes, and judgement, and also testify of Christ.

No man can begin to search after justification without a work of God showing him his wickedness, and creating a knowledge of his lost state.

Of course there are false professors of faith, but that does not negate the power of God, much like when Paul asked the Romans, "what if some did not believe, does this make the word of God without effect? God forbid"
Peter sums it up wonderfully when he writes, "we are kept(guarded) by the power of God through faith unto salvation" 1 Peter 1:5

If someone who professed to be justified turned away from God(which I do not believe can happen) I would question even if they had an honest profession to begin with. But this would have to brought back to what Gospel they heard, and I believe this is why we have so many problems today. Rash decisions for Christ, apart from the knowledge of God and His holiness, or the work of the Cross, and the work of Christ.

Just my thoughts, not worth much

You are suggesting that once a person has believed in God, he is not capable of rebelling, and turning away from God. Yet there is even a mention of an unforgiveable sin in the new testament. Does that unforgiveable sin apply only to the already damned? If so, what is the purpose of even mentioning it? It must apply to believers.

Ben, the unpardonable sin cannot be made by Christians. This is absurd.

You maintain that it is possible for a Christian to fall away, I maintain that it is impossible. My question to you is, 'Do you really feel that you are capable of 'complete and utter rebellion'?

Do you believe that for God to give man complete and total free will, and by free will, I mean the real definition of free will, perfect freedom, without restraint...etc, that He would somehow be out of control?

He would be out of control over the affairs of man. The Bible constantly teaches that God works according to the councel of his own will and he does not change his will according to what men do or don't do.

One other thing I would like to see you address is the issue of Moses striking the rock twice and not entering into the promiseland because of it. We know that the promiseland was a typecast of heaven,

Was the promiseland a typecast of heaven or the Christian life? Are we going to fight enemies in heaven who are currently living there?

and we know that the rock was a typecast of Christ. So why then was Moses not allowed to enter into the promiseland?

Numbers 20
"6And the glory of the LORD appeared to them, 7and the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 8"Take the staff, and assemble the congregation, you and Aaron your brother, and tell the rock before their eyes to yield its water. So you shall bring water out of the rock for them and give drink to the congregation and their cattle." 9And Moses took the staff from before the LORD, as he commanded him.

10Then Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said to them, "Hear now, you rebels: shall we bring water for you out of this rock?" 11And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice, and water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their livestock. 12And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not believe in me, to uphold me as holy in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them." 13These are the waters of Meribah, where the people of Israel quarreled with the LORD, and through them he showed himself holy."

God kept Moses from going into the Promised land because Moses failed to properly uphold the holiness of God. This is not an example of someone losing their salvation. Do you doubt that Moses is in Heaven?

Of course He is able, but are we willing?!

You are nullifying the promise of God and making it conditional upon man. God will keep true Christians from falling and will present them faultless. To make this passage say anything else is injustice.

I hear the same argument made concerning Hebrews 13:5, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
Some say this is true, but we can leave God and forsake him. According to this logic, God can leave us and forsake us even though the scripture clearly states that God will never do so.

One other thing I would like to see you address is the issue of Moses striking the rock twice and not entering into the promiseland because of it. We know that the promiseland was a typecast of heaven,

I hope not, because there were still battles fought in the Promised Land. Heaven is a place of rest is it not?

Canaan was a type of the Christian life, and if you look at the battles of God's people, yet the promises of victory through God is it not like our lives today?

It means that I can trust the Lord to keep me from falling, that i don't have to struggle and strive to come up to His standards, because Jesus is my righteousness. It means that, if He exposes a seed of rebellion in my heart, I can trust Him to deal with it. I can't deal with it myself, but HE can.

I agree. If a seed of rebellion comes into my heart I can be assured that as a child of God that He will discipline me and bring me back into fellowship.

Littlegift,

I keep forgetting that there are people on here from other countries. I just realized that you would call it a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorry]Lorry.[/url]

Lets add these scriptures to the mix.Leviticus 4:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

Leviticus 4:13
And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;

Leviticus 4:22
When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;

Leviticus 4:27
And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

Leviticus 5:15
If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the Lord; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the Lord a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:

Leviticus 5:18
And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.

Numbers 15:24-29
Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the Lord, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering. [25] And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord, for their ignorance: [26] And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
[27] And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. [28] And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the Lord, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. [29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

Notice how the word ignorance is emphasized. A question for all:
What if its not done through ignorance?

pastorfrin

Ben, the unpardonable sin cannot be made by Christians. This is absurd.

Tell me why it is mentioned, and who it is mentioned to?

You maintain that it is possible for a Christian to fall away, I maintain that it is impossible. My question to you is, 'Do you really feel that you are capable of 'complete and utter rebellion'?

Until you answer my questions about how you know that you are saved, then I cannot answer this question.

He would be out of control over the affairs of man. The Bible constantly teaches that God works according to the councel of his own will and he does not change his will according to what men do or don't do.

So you are telling me that when God told Moses to stand aside so that He could kill the people of Israel and create a new people, that he did not change, or at the least postpone his will because of what Moses did?

Or when God tells Ahab through Elijah that he is going to pour out judgement upon him, and Ahab repents, so God holds back his judgment a generation. Where is the unchanging God? He says one thing, and then does another?

Was the promiseland a typecast of heaven or the Christian life? Are we going to fight enemies in heaven who are currently living there?

Have you read the book of Hebrews? It gives the interpretation of all these things about Moses that I have mentioned. The writer of Hebrews is meticulous in his interpretations of these matters. Check the book and see if it does not say what I have already said.

Your quoting of those scriptures only further proves my point, Moses and the rock is the interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6.

"put Christ to an open shame"
"failed to properly uphold the holiness of God"

No, I do not doubt the salvation of Moses, why?
Because I know that the gospel of Christ was preached unto them, even as unto us. As the writers of Hebrews says, they looked forward to the promise of His coming, so that they could hear the gospel. Moses went into the heavens and saw the sacrificed lamb.

But what was done, was done as an example, so that we might hav understanding of these things.

God wanted to make a point that He is holy, and He will not be shamed by Moses, or by any other man.

Here's an interesting point:
[b]God allowed Moses to strike the rock.[/b]

He told Moses what to do, gave him complete liberty to do whatever he wanted, and Moses disobeyed God. What was the punishment for Moses disobedience? He could not enter in to the promise, the covenant with Abraham, the promised land.

Their salvation did not come until later, when Christ came and preached the gospel to them. What happened in their lives were for examples to us.

Notice how the word ignorance is emphasized. A question for all:

These men do not believe that anything you do ever matters once you are justified, because God will take care of it.

But I have more questions:

Why does God allow any sin to manifest itself in people who are justified. If He is able to keep you from falling, then why doesn't He?

How can God contol one aspect of your life, and not be controlling every aspect of your life?

Either men have free will, or they do not. If even one area is controlled, then every area is controlled. This logic cannot be refuted.

And in reference to roaringlamb:

I totally agree that a man cannot be saved unless God reveals his sinfulness to him.

And I believe that God's Spirit must convict him of sin.

But it is the man who has faith, not God.

God has given every man a measure of faith.

It is our choice to use it or not.

What measure of faith did God give to the eternally predistined to hell?

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

It is the preaching of the word, with the mixing of the faith in a man, that produces repentance and belief.

God does not save men against their wills, and His grace is completely resistable, elsewise there would be none in hell except the devil and his angels.

JaySaved wrote:

Ben, the unpardonable sin cannot be made by Christians. This is absurd.

Ben wrote:

Tell me why it is mentioned, and who it is mentioned to?

John Macarthur can do a better job than I can [url=http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-B-8.htm]here.[/url]

God does not save men against their wills, and His grace is completely resistable, elsewise there would be none in hell except the devil and his angels.

When your eyes were opened to see Christ, could you refuse His beauty, and His majesty, and His love? Or did you repent, and put faith in Him?

Until you answer my questions about how you know that you are saved, then I cannot answer this question.

Romans 5:1-5
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us."

First I have peace with God through Christ.
Secondly, I know that God is faithful to help me in my sufferings to produce hope.
Thirdly, I have God's love in my heart by the Holy Spirit.
Fourthly, I am disciplined by God when I sin. 1 Corinthians 11:32, "...when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world." God loves me enough to correct me as a Father would.

Hebrews 12:5-10 says, "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness."

Lastly, because I notice 'good fruit' in my life. Luke 6:43-45, "For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."

In fact the entire book of 1 John gives me ways to know that I am a Christian so that I do not have to doubt. 1 John 5:13 says, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."

Now, my question that I haven't found an answer to yet:
"How can a person who has believed and placed their faith in Christ, completely and utter rebel against Christ and no longer believe in him?"

Is it sin? Is it lack of faith?
Romans 8:35-39 says nothing can seperate us from Christ.

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

In all seriousness and earnestness how can one hold the view that salvation can be lost in spite of the fact that countless scriptures tell us that God will keep us secure?

God does not save men against their wills, and His grace is completely resistable, elsewise there would be none in hell except the devil and his angels.

If I may add to what roaringlamb said:

You are right, God does not save men against their will. I have never seen a man walk come to salvation by saying, 'I don't want to, but God is forcing me.' No, all true converts run to the Savior because they see their sinfulness and God's hatred of it.

Man's will is free yet bound. It is free from external forces but bound to it's own desires and understanding. When God regenerates a person, this is not done against their will. God's regeneration changes a person's desires and changes a person's understanding of God so that the person willingly runs to Christ.

As to his grace being resistible, we must understand that their is a grace that is given to all men (Light, Rain, laughter)and there is Saving grace that is given to those who God has chosen.

1 Corinthians 1:21-24
21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Notice the different reactions between those who are called and those who are not?

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
This should not be that hard to see. Stop trying to make your points and look at HIS WORD.

Psalm 119:89
For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

Ezekiel 18:20-32
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. [21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. [22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. [23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[25] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? [26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. [27] Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. [28] Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. [29] Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? [30] Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? [32] For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

1 John 2:1-6
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:1-7
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. [2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [3] And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:23-24
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 7:18
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

All Glory be to Him, for HE alone is Worthy

pastorfrin

If I am birthed by a father and mother, did I have any say in the life giving seed being planted in the womb? I had no idea I would be birthed. The same goes for the Seed of Christ.
God places the Seed of Christ in the believer, which is a picture of the function of birth of a human being. God is not an abortionist, that is why He allows millions to be killed to show that a Loving God could not do what man can do.

I don't understand this free will that every body always talks about. Just what is free will and how does it become manifest.

What is the Holy Spirits function. Jhn 16:8 And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Reprove the world, why? John 16:8-11 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Who is judged? "The Prince of this world. Satan.

What? What happened to our judgment? We must be born again our we die, Body, Soul and Spirit.

Who does the birthing and whose Seed is placed in the one that believes and is convicted of sin that The Holy Spirit has come for. Here it is, our judgment, what judgment? If you eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil you will surly die. We are convicted of this by the Holy Spirit. "The soul that sins shall surly die."

Now the Holy Spirit tells us that the one who believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, will be righteous and be saved.

Yes, I believe. All else is up to God, it is His Seed and we have nothing to do with it. I am now a son of God by the Son of God and His Seed born again in me. I cannot ever say God is not my Father, else I would be a liar. I had nothing to do with it. He is my Heavenly Father and Christ is my new life, and on top of that He is my brother by birth and legal adoption, just to make sure it cannot be taken away.

Even the prodigal son who did all the running he possible could, never forgot his birthing father and when he ate with pigs he remembered and returned to his Father. That could not be done away with no matter how long or how far he ran. His Father was still His Father.

Our Heavenly Father is much much more and we can never get away from this ever present fact.

If you don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, then you don't have to worry about eternal security, you are none of His.

In Christ, all of His: Phillip

I am sorry. I know that I am new around these parts, but discussions like this are rarely profitable for edification. The brother originally posted his question because he is concerned about his salvation and is troubled. (Please see the Prayer Request thread). I see that he hasn't been back since the debate heated up.

I just feel bad that it has turned into this. :cry:

John Macarthur can do a better job than I can here.

And still the question is unanswered.

Is it mentioned to the unbeliever so that he can really realize his damned state? I think according to your belief, that is the only plausible explanation I can see.
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When your eyes were opened to see Christ, could you refuse His beauty, and His majesty, and His love? Or did you repent, and put faith in Him?

I came to Christ because I was afraid of hell, I knew the consequences for the life I had led, and I was fearful of the judgement to come. The only answer I knew was Christ, and I went to Him in hopes that I might find mercy.

Yes He led me there, yes He drew me with His Spirit. But He did not ordain me to do so, He allowed me to do so. I could have just as easily made one more mistake and had a life of imprisonment. I did not come to Him because I was one of the lucky chosen ones. I came to Him as any man has the option to.

My choice. His leading.
That is a big difference from what you believe.
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(In Reference to your response about knowing you are saved)

How do you know that you are not a tear, growing along side of the wheat? According to the parable, they are so similar that even the angels don't know for sure which is which.

You see, it is such a wonderful thing to teach that everyone who comes to God is one of the chosen, and has eternal security unshakeable by anything. But when you do, you preach man's gospel, and not God's.

What is being failed to realize here is that Christ was the sacrifice lamb for the sins of the whole world. And as such, he would not have wasted His own blood on me and women whom He had chosen for hell. You say He did not choose them for hell, that is flawed logic. By not choosing them for heaven, He chose them for hell.

For example, there are two baseball teams, team heaven, and team hell. There will be ten people on each team, there is a group of twenty people standing around. God says, ok, you ten are on team heaven, and you other ten...um...just go your natural way, uninfluenced by me. That is an absurd scenario, and completely unlike our God.
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Now, my question that I haven't found an answer to yet:"How can a person who has believed and placed their faith in Christ, completely and utter rebel against Christ and no longer believe in him?"

As long as you believe that a man has no control over his life, you will never find the answer to this question. When you realize that God created men to respond to Him, and not be controlled by Him. Then you will be able to know the answer.

Did you notice that in Romans 8, the only thing Paul does not mention, is the individual?

Why is that?

Because Paul knows that an individual can choose his own destiny at any moment by surrender, or by refusal.

It asks what shall seperate us from the love of Christ. This verse cannot be understood, if you believe that God only loves certain people. If you realize from reading many scriptures, John 3:16...and many others as well. He does not love only a chosen few, He loves the entire world.

Now when a person chooses to come into a relationship with Him, does His love for that person suddenly grow? Or does His love remain constant, as it has from the foundation of the world and before?

Did you notice, that Paul does not say that we cannot be seperated, rather he ask a question for the sake of encouragement.
Second, all of the listed things that he questions as being able to seperate them, are all outward things that have nothing to do with a man's heart before God.

A man has not been stripped of his free will simply by accepting God's grace. All he has done is accept it, and just as he has done so, he may also refuse it.

I say again it is by choosing to walk in utter rebellion against what you know is right.

In all seriousness and earnestness how can one hold the view that salvation can be lost in spite of the fact that countless scriptures tell us that God will keep us secure?

God can only keep those secure who are in constant surrender to His will. If we choose our own will, then it is obvious we are not His friends, because we will not keep His commands. And He will say depart from me, I never knew you.

Have you ever become someone's friend, and then at some point in the relationship you decide not to be that persons friend anymore? Perish the thought! But I have scarcely met anyone that has not had this happen.

Now would you say that you were never their friend to begin with? Or did you refuse to continue on in the relationship?

It is the same with you and God. Just because you became friends, does not mean that you cannot bow out of the relationship.

What happens to the free will that you say we possess? Does God just overide it, rewrite our DNA, and brainwash us?

[b]Luke 9:62
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.[/b]

Notice, the man put his hand to the plough.

It does not say: No man who is looking at the plough, and looking back...

You see the man was already engaged in the work of the kingdom. And then decides to look back at the world.

After he has made a decision for Christ, he then changes his mind, and longs for what he had before. So he is dubbed unfit.

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Let me ask you a question, why does God give a measure of faith to all men?

Why would He implant faith in men who are already selected for hell?

Have you ever read the scripture that says this:

[b]Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.[/b]

I thought that according to your belief, that all who are called are chosen? I believe that is what was implied in your latest post is it not?

Now I have some questions:

Who are the many?

Who are the few?

Why are they chosen? (in context with matthew 22)
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Now for the sake of our discussion, if we could each do one post, with a line by line answer of the others views, I believe we could have a much more fulfilling discussion. That is far more exacting than it has been so far.

You see, it is such a wonderful thing to teach that everyone who comes to God is one of the chosen, and has eternal security unshakeable by anything. But when you do, you preach man's gospel, and not God's.

I do not teach that everyone who come to God is one of the chosen. Scripture clearly does not teach that. For example see the rich young ruler. What I do teach is that all who persevere to the end is one of the chosen. Big difference and I think you might actually agree with that.

Did you notice that in Romans 8, the only thing Paul does not mention, is the individual?

I find this amusing. I did not know that the individual is not found in the following passage?
Romans 8:38-39, "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Honestly, I believe you have missed the point of Paul's words. When he says that nothing will separate us from God, he means nothing.

Let me ask you a question, why does God give a measure of faith to all men?

What passage are you referring to:
Is it Romans 12:3?
"For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned."

If so, then you must know that the subjects who receive the faith are Christians. As it says in verses 4 and 5, "For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another."

Why would He implant faith in men who are already selected for hell?

Have you ever read the scripture that says this:

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

I thought that according to your belief, that all who are called are chosen? I believe that is what was implied in your latest post is it not?

Yes. All who are Internally called are chosen.

Now I have some questions:

Who are the many?

Those who hear the gospel proclaimed. This is referred to as the External Call

Who are the few?

Those who are chosen by God. This is referred to as the Internal Call

Why are they chosen? (in context with Matthew 22)

They are chosen because they have the 'wedding garment'. The wedding garment is a symbol of the blood of Christ that has cleansed the sinner. Without the wedding garment you cannot participate in the wedding feast. How did the person get the wedding garment? It was a gift! But not all received the wedding garment because they were not chosen.

You are attempting to try to prove that individuals can be called to salvation without being chosen. But to prove that point would be to not catch me in a falsehood, but to catch Scripture itself in a falsehood. For Romans 8:30 says that "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Do you agree that Romans 8:30 says that all who are called are justified?

I do not teach that everyone who come to God is one of the chosen. Scripture clearly does not teach that. For example see the rich young ruler. What I do teach is that all who persevere to the end is one of the chosen. Big difference and I think you might actually agree with that.

I am confused then by what you believe, at what point do you believe justification takes place? And how would you know who the ones who have been justified are? As they all must persevere until the end. So unless I am wrong, you could never know. And you could only hope that you yourself will always endure.

Honestly, I believe you have missed the point of Paul's words. When he says that nothing will separate us from God, he means nothing.

Well, I must say this point is a difficult one to argue for me, but I do note that it says nothing will seperate us from the Love of God, and God loves the whole world. Even though he hates sin, he still loves mankind. I know it is talking about those who are saved, so I'm not sure where to go with this one.

I realize this is a weak argument at best, and I cannot think of anything about it to say right now, I must meditate on this portion of our discussion more thouroughly.

To answer this I must be told which verse you are using because it is absurd to ask this question with Romans 12:3 in mind.

Well, yes that is the verse I was referring to, but why would it be absurd to use that? It does state that God has given each a measure of faith.

If men did not have faith, how could they believe?

Let me show you something from Hebrews to clarify my point.

[b]Hebrews 4:1-2

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. [/b]

It says that the gospel was preched to them, but not being mixed with faith, it did not profit them.

First point, A man must have faith to believe the gospel.

Now, either God gives the faith at the moment of preaching, or man already has been given it from his creation to the present.

In either case, if God chooses specific people to give the faith to, and not others, [b]then he has created certain men without faith so that they can be eternally punished.[/b] That would be the whole point of their creation.

A few questions:

Who preached the gospel to them?

If it was Christ who preached unto them, why did He not give them faith to believe? (seeing as how it would be a pointless thing for Him to preach if He wasn't going to give them faith.)

It would appear that each man has a responsibility to respond to the message preached, and mix what he hears with his faith, and believe.

You see, I do not draw the conclusion only from Romans 12:3, it is from other instances which show men must all have faith, [b]or our God created some to simply go to hell. He did not give them the same opportunity as the ones to whom faith was given.[/b]

Yes. All who are Internally called are chosen.

This is what I was referring to, but I thought that that verse was one kind of calling, not two different ones. Are you drawing your conclusion from a greek interpretation or am I missing something?

Are you saying that God does not internally call everyone? And if so, does that not make Him a God who created certain men simply to torment them?

They are chosen because they have the 'wedding garment'. The wedding garment is a symbol of the blood of Christ that has cleansed the sinner. Without the wedding garment you cannot participate in the wedding feast. How did the person get the wedding garment? It was a gift! But not all received the wedding garment because they were not chosen.

But that's not what the parable says, it simply says that the man came in without wearing the wedding garment, he had not put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and been covered by His blood. [b]That man was called, but refused, because he did not accept Christ's atoning sacrifice.[/b]

Do you agree that Romans 8:30 says that all who are called are justified?

Yes, I do.

But before you continue this part of the conversation, I just want to clear up in scripture where it says that there are two kinds of callings, internal and external. Because I cannot seem to find anywhere where that is the case. Then I will be ready for your next question based off of my answer.

Adam had the faith to believe the devil and his wife. That faith killed us all. So yes all have been given a measure of faith, but to be saved it must be a faith that turns us from darkness to light. No one can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ. No one can believe in, the belief in Jesus Christ, except the Father bring him by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Who revealed it to Peter? It takes quickened Faith to believe unto salvation. That is the only way anyone is saved. Not by works lest any man should boast. It takes the Faith of God to believe unto salvation. Then The Faith of Jesus Christ is our life.

No person created or birthed has the Faith of God, except Jesus Christ and He is the only One we can get it from by being born again, it takes the quickening by the Holy Spirit to become born again by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and it is He birthed in us that changes our nature from our father the devil into the glorious nature of God the Son.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Who's Faith? This is the mystery of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who's working in us?

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Where is our Life?

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Who's Faith have we not denied?

Not my faith but His.

In Christ: Phillip

I am confused then by what you believe, at what point do you believe justification takes place?

Justification occurred at Calvary.
Colossians 2:12-15 says, "buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

The death of Christ did not only make salvation possible but it actually secured salvation for all who would be saved.

And how would you know who the ones who have been justified are? As they all must persevere until the end. So unless I am wrong, you could never know. And you could only hope that you yourself will always endure.

God has provided many ways to determine if someone is a true Christian. 1 John is almost devoted primarily to that. Also, you will recognize a Christian by their fruit. What it boils down to is that we are not to judge others but we are to hold others accountable and encourage/edify them in their walk with God.

You see, I do not draw the conclusion only from Romans 12:3, it is from other instances which show men must all have faith, or our God created some to simply go to hell. He did not give them the same opportunity as the ones to whom faith was given.

This is the classic objection against Reformed theology. Many object to the notion that God created some people simply to go to hell and that he is unjust in not giving the same opportunity to all men. Romans 9 addresses this very idea in great detail. I know that some feel that Romans 9 only deals with the Jews but that is just not true. Romans 9 gives us a window into God's Election and calling to salvation.

Are you saying that God does not internally call everyone?

Yes. If God internally called everyone then all would be saved. Romans 8:30 says that all who are called are justified.

And if so, does that not make Him a God who created certain men simply to torment them?

Paul answered this objection in Romans 9:14-18. He begins by stating the objection: What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? to which he replies: "By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

But that's not what the parable says, it simply says that the man came in without wearing the wedding garment, he had not put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and been covered by His blood. That man was called, but refused, because he did not accept Christ's atoning sacrifice.

Compare your statement in bold to Romans 8:30.
"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

How can you affirm that all who are called are justified and then affirm that someone can refuse the saving call of God?

Justification occurred at Calvary.Colossians 2:12-15 says, "buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

The death of Christ did not only make salvation possible but it actually secured salvation for all who would be saved.

What do you do then with this verse in Romans which says that salvation comes by confession?

[b]Romans 10:8-10

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.[/b]

Ok, so then you don't believe man has any free will concerning his salvation?

If God created some for heaven, and some for hell, that means man has no choice on that one issue, correct?

How can you affirm that all who are called are justified and then affirm that someone can refuse the saving call of God?

Hold on one second, before I answer this, I really do want to know where the internal/external calling comes from. And how you know in scripture when it refers to one or the other.

Then I will absolutely answer this question.

What do you do then with this verse in Romans which says that salvation comes by confession?

Justification occurs at Calvary. Salvation occurs at the moment of regeneration when a person responds to God in Faith.

Ok, so then you don't believe man has any free will concerning his salvation?

Man has a will that is free and bound. Man's will is free from external coercion in that nothing can externally force a person to act against their will. Man's will is bound to it's desires and understanding.
When God regenerates a person, he changes their understanding and desires by making them a new creation. None of this is done against a person's will.

If God created some for heaven, and some for hell, that means man has no choice on that one issue, correct?

According to the Bible, man is held responsible for all his actions and God is sovereign in salvation. Think about the story of Joseph and his brothers.

Genesis 50
15When Joseph's brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, "It may be that Joseph will hate us and pay us back for all the evil that we did to him." 16So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, "Your father gave this command before he died, 17'Say to Joseph, Please forgive the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you.' And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father." Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, "Behold, we are your servants." 19But Joseph said to them, "Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. 21So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones." Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

God holds the brothers accountable for selling Joseph into slavery, but Joseph also said it was ordained by God. Did God ordain sin? No. Did God make the brothers sin? No.

Man has a choice and man chooses not to obey God. God is sovereign in salvation. God is good and just in all his does. All of these are Biblical and true. It is just in our finite minds that we don't think it is all true.

EDIT Forgot to address this:

Hold on one second, before I answer this, I really do want to know where the internal/external calling comes from. And how you know in scripture when it refers to one or the other.

The external calling is the preaching of the gospel. It is a universal calling that is commanded by Jesus. This external calling is irresistible because (as we all know) not all who hear the gospel with their ears become Christians.

The internal calling is the calling of God himself upon a sinner to bring them to salvation. This internal calling is mentioned in Romans 8:29-30. This internal calling is irresistible because all who are called are justified.

Now, I hope you can answer my question:
How can you affirm that all who are called are justified and then affirm that someone can refuse the saving call of God?

Justification occurs at Calvary. Salvation occurs at the moment of regeneration when a person responds to God in Faith.

According to the scriptures, the lamb was slain at the foundation of the earth. So then when did justification take place?

Was it at the foundation, or not?

Man has a will that is free and bound. Man's will is free from external coercion in that nothing can externally force a person to act against their will. Man's will is bound to it's desires and understanding.

From what I understand(correct me if I'm wrong) you teach that men are so in rebellion against God, that even if they were presented the opportunity of salvation, they would reject it outright.

[b]So then how does God change man's understanding without doing it against his will?[/b]
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So then do you believe that man has no choice in his salvation?

And do you believe that God created people simply to send them to hell without giving them the same opportunity as the "elect"? (i.e. Inward calling)

The external calling is the preaching of the gospel. It is a universal calling that is commanded by Jesus. This external calling is irresistible because (as we all know) not all who hear the gospel with their ears become Christians.

The internal calling is the calling of God himself upon a sinner to bring them to salvation. This internal calling is mentioned in Romans 8:29-30. This internal calling is irresistible because all who are called are justified.

Now, I hope you can answer my question:
How can you affirm that all who are called are justified and then affirm that someone can refuse the saving call of God?

I'm sorry, but I cannot find proof of this in scripture, can you please give me scripture that shows both inward, and external callings, and then also how you know whether in any given scripture it refers to inward or external calling.

I am finding this difficult to understand, because I can find no apparent means of determining whether in a scripture it is an external or an internal calling.

Let me emphasize that I need exact scriptures on this question, as it is confusing me.
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I do intend to answer your question, but I cannot properly explain myself until the above question is answered.

Ben,

I offered scriptural proof of internal calling in Romans 8:29-30.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14315&forum=36#110732]Earlier post on Free Will[/url]

Free Will is both Free and in Bondage. What do I mean by saying that? Am I not contradicting myself? No. Allow me to explain.

Free Will is Free externally. A person's will is free because it is not controlled by outside influences. People have wills that are Free. This is universal and this is the aspect of Free Will that non-Calvinists only speak of in these discussions.

Free Will is Free externally but is also in Bondage internally. Free Will is in bondage because it is a slave to a person's desires and understanding. Free Will is in bondage internally because no one chooses anything against their desires and understanding.

Example: A lost person is a slave to sin and an enemy of God. They make Free Will choices based on those desires and their understanding of God. They do not know God and this lack of understanding keeps them from God. They are spiritually dead and an object of wrath.

Objection: What about a person who is walking on the street and is robbed at gunpoint. Is this not a violation of Free Will because the person does not desire to lose his wallet and an external force is making him do something against his will? No, this is not a violation of Free Will. Notice that two choices were presented to the person: Die or give up your wallet. The person made a choice to give up his wallet rather than die. He was presented options and he made a choice based on his desires and understanding.

So, I said all that to say this:
It is God who changes our desires and understanding of who He really is. He does not change our Will but instead changes what it is bound to. This is why people 'choose' Christ. They now desire Christ and have a greater understanding of who he is. They see him differently and gladly run to Him. It is God doing this, through Grace.

It is faulty logic to assume that since God chooses, free will cannot exist.

I offered scriptural proof of internal calling in Romans 8:29-30.

What I am confused about is how you come to the conclusion that what it is mentioning is an inward calling rather than an outward calling.

When I read that passage of scripture, all I see is the word "calling". And it does not say anywhere there whether it is internal, or external.

I just want some scripture to back it up where it is clear, because when I read that verse, it looks to me like it could be either or. And that you may be drawing your interpretation of it from some theologian rather than the scripture.

Hope that explains what I mean better.

Romans 8:29-30
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

When I read that passage of scripture, all I see is the word "calling". And it does not say anywhere there whether it is internal, or external.

Is it an internal calling or an external calling?

Here is what the scripture says:
- All who are foreknown are predestined.
- All who are predestined are called.
- All who are called are justified.
- All who are justified are glorified.

We can gather from these verses the following:
- Nobody is glorified unless they are first justified.
- Nobody is justified unless they are first called.
- Nobody is called unless they are first predestined.
- Nobody is predestined unless they are first foreknown.

In Summary,
God foreknew individuals and chose to save them. These individuals and only these individuals were then predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus. Only those individuals who were predestined are called by God to salvation. Nobody who was not previously predestined is called. Only those individuals who are called by God to salvation will be justified and every single person who is called by God will be justified. Only those who are justified will be glorified.

Think of it this way in terms of numbers:
Let's say for this example that 100 people are foreknown by God in the sense of Romans 8:29.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are predestined.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are called.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are justified.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are glorified.

Now, the scripture also speaks of a universal calling in scripture. We are commanded in the Great Commission to go into the world and tell everyone about the gospel. The gospel call is given to all men. Of those who hear this gospel call from us humans, some may respond to Salvation, some may reject. The simple fact that one person may reject this 'calling' puts Romans 8:29-30 under suspicion, does it not?

So either the word of God is in error, or there are two different callings mentioned in scripture: an external gospel call given by humans and an internal call to salvation given by God himself.

Are these two calls at odds with one another? No, for God uses the external call to give the internal call.

How can any man say he chose God? No man will ever choose God unless God gives him the ability.
Man has not since Adam, ever chosen God unless faith was imputed to him, it was not his faith that believed, it was God's Faith in Christ being our justification, Christ is made our Justification 1 Corinthians 1:30. If we are sanctified by Christ in righteousness, wisdom, redemption. Christ is our only redemption, we cannot redeem ourselves and if we cannot choose God and never would, there is only one thing left. It is God who saves us in Christ Jesus and it is God who gives revelation to believe. It is nothing upon us except to believe what God has said, "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" and nothing will separate us from that belief and love, not even ourselves.

You can only choose something you never had by being given the ability from above to believe, that "Jesus Christ Is the Son of God", unto salvation. John 3:16.

Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? (((It is God that justifieth.))) Who is he that condemneth? ((I cannot condemn myself)) It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Save yourself, I don't think so. Condemn yourself with petty unbelief, I don't think so.
Nothing will separate us from God's Choice. We choose nothing it is given us and we cannot make the Cross of Christ of no effect. It is impossible for those in Christ to fall away, if it were possible there would be no returning. That is not God's Plan. His plan is Eph 1:4, His Choice not ours. We were never an independent self, we are either of our father Satan or of God our Father by Jesus Christ in us.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
How can any man say he chose God? No man will ever choose God unless God gives him the ability.
Man has not since Adam, ever chosen God unless faith was imputed to him, it was not his faith that believed, it was God's Faith in Christ being our justification, Christ is made our Justification 1 Corinthians 1:30. If we are sanctified by Christ in righteousness, wisdom, redemption. Christ is our only redemption, we cannot redeem ourselves and if we cannot choose God and never would, there is only one thing left. It is God who saves us in Christ Jesus and it is God who gives revelation to believe. It is nothing upon us except to believe what God has said, "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" and nothing will separate us from that belief and love, not even ourselves.

You can only choose something you never had by being given the ability from above to believe, that "Jesus Christ Is the Son of God", unto salvation. John 3:16.

Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? (((It is God that justifieth.))) Who is he that condemneth? ((I cannot condemn myself)) It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Save yourself, I don't think so. Condemn yourself with petty unbelief, I don't think so.
Nothing will separate us from God's Choice. We choose nothing it is given us and we cannot make the Cross of Christ of no effect. It is impossible for those in Christ to fall away, if it were possible there would be no returning. That is not God's Plan. His plan is Eph 1:4, His Choice not ours. We were never an independent self, we are either of our father Satan or of God our Father by Jesus Christ in us.

In Christ: Phillip

I perceive you are a Calvinist - Everyone that is saved is predestined, and once saved, you cannot lose your salvation! But faith is not given until the decision for Christ is made. And God does not make our decision for us.

How I wish it were true. We would never have to do anything, and the only point in working towards holiness would be for rewards, not to please God, and show our love and respect.

Granted, in the Sovereignty of God, He has to do a great deal to get us ready to make a single decision. We cannot find God unless He calls us.

But He doesn't want robots. God wants a family, that loves and trusts Him by Choice. He wants us to rule and reign with Christ. How can we do that without a true choice? We would merely be chesspieces on an eternal interdimensional chessboard.

As for once saved, always saved, what say you about the warning not to grieve the Holy Spirit, or the question of the unforgivable sin? And what about the fact that if one curses the Holy Spirit, you are damned?

Yes, I know God knows what will happen. I also can feel His pain for those that refuse His call. It is written in the scriptures, "Many are called, but few are chosen. If God were cut and dried over what would happen, He would not care what we did. We would simply be His.

But even the Angels have the ability to be for or against Him. And because we are made with the potential to be more than Angels in Heaven, a degree of interest of more than mere rewards in heaven is warranted.

God wants our love, proven by our obedience. The more we prove it, the more He wants to reward us, just like a good parent loves to gratify his children just because they try so hard, and are so loveable.

Please re-consider your position.

Our only choice is to say yes or no, and having said yes, to follow through with our whole hearts. Those that don't miss out on a lot, most of which is God's loving care now, and eternal salvation.

We truly can do nothing of ourselves, except agree to salvation, or not. If we agree, then God works through the Holy Spirit to change us, and the harder we work with the Holy Spirit, the faster we can be changed. But we must choose. And we must stay in that viewpoint, and work toward holiness according to the light that is given us.

Blessings,

JaySaved wrote:
Romans 8:29-30
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

When I read that passage of scripture, all I see is the word "calling". And it does not say anywhere there whether it is internal, or external.

Is it an internal calling or an external calling?

Here is what the scripture says:
- All who are foreknown are predestined.
- All who are predestined are called.
- All who are called are justified.
- All who are justified are glorified.

We can gather from these verses the following:
- Nobody is glorified unless they are first justified.
- Nobody is justified unless they are first called.
- Nobody is called unless they are first predestined.
- Nobody is predestined unless they are first foreknown.

In Summary,
God foreknew individuals and chose to save them. These individuals and only these individuals were then predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus. Only those individuals who were predestined are called by God to salvation. Nobody who was not previously predestined is called. Only those individuals who are called by God to salvation will be justified and every single person who is called by God will be justified. Only those who are justified will be glorified.

Think of it this way in terms of numbers:
Let's say for this example that 100 people are foreknown by God in the sense of Romans 8:29.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are predestined.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are called.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are justified.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are glorified.

Now, the scripture also speaks of a universal calling in scripture. We are commanded in the Great Commission to go into the world and tell everyone about the gospel. The gospel call is given to all men. Of those who hear this gospel call from us humans, some may respond to Salvation, some may reject. The simple fact that one person may reject this 'calling' puts Romans 8:29-30 under suspicion, does it not?

So either the word of God is in error, or there are two different callings mentioned in scripture: an external gospel call given by humans and an internal call to salvation given by God himself.

Are these two calls at odds with one another? No, for God uses the external call to give the internal call.

How convenient for us. And how depressingly final. That means that no one can be prayed into the body of Christ. And it means that the words in Scripture, 'many are called, but few are chosen' are a lie.

Yes, I know God knew me from before the beginning of time. He knew everyone before the beginnning of time. He knew who would choose Him, and who would not.

But God did not decide for us. He prepared us. He woos us. He allows us the yes or no choice, and how hard we work to please Him. After the yes or no, He works with us to get us ready to rule and reign with Christ. How we do on earth determines our rank and responsibilities in Heaven. Or are you going to say God has foreordained that too?

But you are basically saying that God is a spiritual rapist, on a major power trip. With your viewpoint, I might as well twiddle my thumbs until death. After all, what I think or do doesn't count, right?

I believe in Christ and follow Him, but it was never anything I had any right to choose. God chose for me. I don't count to God. I am an automaton, and nothing more. God doesn't want my love and trust, only my grudging obedience.

Please, ask for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. God really does care what we decide, and only then takes over again. But we can still damn ourselves. We need only curse the Holy Spirit.

Think about it. You may want a pre-planned destiny. I don't. I want the option of surprise, and the enjoyment of God's continuous adaption to our fits and starts here on earth. And I think God would be bored to death without choosing not to focus on the end result.

If God can forgive our sins, and forget them completely, can He not also choose not to know the end result except in a general way, the same way that I know that I will die if the Rapture doesn't come before hand?

Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ. In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.

I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.

God chose me too, But I chose Him in return. I am obsessed with Him as I ever was with my first love at 13. I love Him more and more each day, and try to show it.

You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.

How convenient for us. And how depressingly final. That means that no one can be prayed into the body of Christ. And it means that the words in Scripture, 'many are called, but few are chosen' are a lie.

Romans 8:30 says that all who are called are also justified. Matthew 22:14 says that many are called, but few are chosen. Is this an inconsistency? On the surface it appears to be, but even though the same word is used (Called), we are discussing two different events. In Matthew the Call is the gospel call made by the servants of the king. In Romans we see the Call is a unique call unto salvation made by God.

Here is another example:
1 Corinthians 1:22-24, “For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

Three types of people are mentioned in these verses: Jews, Gentiles, and the Called. The Jews demand signs because they do not believe the gospel. Greeks seeks wisdom and they do not find it in the gospel. The Called—containing both Jews and Gentiles—believe and know that Christ is the Son of God. All heard the gospel (External Call) but only some believed (Internal Call).

Yes, I know God knew me from before the beginning of time. He knew everyone before the beginnning of time.

God does know all things, but we must be very careful how we use the word KNEW. God has knowledge of all people, but he does not KNOW everyone relationally.
In Matthew 7:22-24 Jesus says, “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' Jesus said, ‘I never knew you.’ He doesn’t say I knew you but I stopped.

He knew who would choose Him, and who would not. But God did not decide for us. He prepared us. He woos us. He allows us the yes or no choice, and how hard we work to please Him.

He did know who would respond in faith, but this is not the basis for our salvation. Ephesians 1:11 says, “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” Notice what this verse does say and what it does not say. It does say that God works all things according to the counsel of His will. It does not say that God works all things according to the decisions men make. That is a big difference.
1 John 4:19 says, “We love because he first loved us.” In John 17:6 Jesus says, “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.” In John 17:9 Jesus says, “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.” He is speaking of his disciples but he is also speaking of all disciples. John 17:20-21 says, “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” Scripture is clear that it is God who initiates and chooses.

After the yes or no, He works with us to get us ready to rule and reign with Christ. How we do on earth determines our rank and responsibilities in Heaven. Or are you going to say God has foreordained that too?

God chooses those whom he will but he does not work for us. He has told us that we are responsible and must do good works. Ephesians 2:10 says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

But you are basically saying that God is a spiritual rapist, on a major power trip. With your viewpoint, I might as well twiddle my thumbs until death. After all, what I think or do doesn't count, right? I believe in Christ and follow Him, but it was never anything I had any right to choose. God chose for me. I don't count to God. I am an automaton, and nothing more. God doesn't want my love and trust, only my grudging obedience.

Earlier you said that we must work hard to please him. Do you not understand that our works are not the basis of our justification (past, present, or future)? This reminds me of something roaringlamb said earlier in this discussion:

“I have struggled, and still do (alot), simply accepting that Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the Law, and He is the Perfect One, yet God sees me "in Him". God loves me because of Christ. I fear many have fallen under the ideology that they must continue on in morals of their own making to somehow present this before God, but does that not put Christ and His work aside, and create a "justification" by works?

Please, ask for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. God really does care what we decide, and only then takes over again. But we can still damn ourselves. We need only curse the Holy Spirit.

So God is nervously pacing the halls of heaven begging and wishing that someone would come to a saving knowledge of himself? God is powerless to save someone even though he desires that all men come to a knowledge of the truth? If he is not powerless, then does he choose not to save even thought he desires all men be saved? Is God nervous after someone chooses him? Is he afraid that someone might curse the Holy Spirit and then he would lose them forever?

I am afraid that this is not Biblical. This however is Biblical:
John 6:38-40, “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Think about it. You may want a pre-planned destiny. I don't. I want the option of surprise, and the enjoyment of God's continuous adaption to our fits and starts here on earth. And I think God would be bored to death without choosing not to focus on the end result.

You may want to try Open Theism. It is a heresy but it closely resembles what you “want”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Theism

If God can forgive our sins, and forget them completely, can He not also choose not to know the end result except in a general way, the same way that I know that I will die if the Rapture doesn't come before hand?

There is no limit to God’s knowledge.
Psalm 147:5 “Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.”
Ezekiel 11:5, “And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and he said to me, "Say, Thus says the LORD: So you think, O house of Israel. For I know the things that come into your mind.”
Acts 15:17-18 “That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”
Romans 11:33-36, “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
Hebrews 4:13, “And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.”

Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ. In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.

On the contrary, it is humbling to think that God chose me for salvation. I have no room to boast except in God. I did nothing to earn my salvation. I simply became aware of God and responded as I desired to respond—in affirmation. You see, you have room to boast if you theology is true. You say that you chose God, but what about those who do not choose God? Are they not as smart as you are? Are they not as wise? Are you better than them? If God draws all men equally to himself, then there must be something special about you to respond as others do not…

I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.

I fear you do not know me well at all. I am a man who struggles daily. I am a man who is saved by grace and has a loving heavenly father to help me through my struggles. I rest peaceably in the security of Christ, but I strive daily to honor him in my life because I love him and desire to serve him. I serve him because of who He is, not because of what I can gain. Help me Lord to always serve you with a humble spirit!

God chose me too, But I chose Him in return. I am obsessed with Him as I ever was with my first love at 13. I love Him more and more each day, and try to show it.

Great! I am thankful that you are a child of God. I encourage you to continue to serve him and love him more and more each day.

You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.

UniqueWebRev I encourage you to pray over these words you have written. You are making an assumption about another Christian. You know very little about my relationship with Christ. You are accusing me of ‘token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, and worship without value.’
Pray over those words you spoke and may God forgive you of your slander. I love God and desire to honor him every day. God knows that and my conscience is clear.

Now, would you please respond to the substance of my post on Romans 8:29-30 instead of launching into a diatribe about myself and my relationship with God.

I am a Christian not a Calvinist. I believe what scripture says, not man. I have a teacher, it is the Holy Spirit and He only teaches me what the Christ in me wants Him to teach. All things are revealed and truth is of God, Christ Himself has been birthed in me. Just like my mother and dad, I had no choice in my birth. Just like God I had no choice in being birthed again. All I could do was believe after it happened. Galatians 1:15-17 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by His grace, To reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Paul did not choose Christ, he would have killed Him if he could, just like His followers. Who met Paul on the road? Who meets us in our road, doing and walking our own way? We can only believe the one that Adam chose. We cannot believe unless God intervenes, He did at the Cross and even then we cannot believe unless we are convicted by the Holy Spirit and even then all we can do is believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the only one that can take our conviction and give us the faith to believe.

Who are we the clay to tell the Potter that it is our choice, our works, our freedom, our, our, our anything to be saved. It is Christ, The Holy Spirit, and God the Father, who has saved us. Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: The same for Paul. The same for you and I. This is all we can do. Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; This is what God does: Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

In Christ by the birthing Seed of my Father.
Phillip

Brothers Jay and Christinyou,
Excellent words in defense of the glorious Gospel of Jesus.
Jay~ The bill is on its way ;-)

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This passage is not talking about salvation, but repentance. Do I trust in the Lord Jesus as my Savior? Since I am, then I have not fallen from the saving grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus.

An example of one who tasted of the heavenly gift and then turned from repentance would have been the ruler of Luke 18:18ff. He did not lose his salvation for he never had it. Tasting something is not necessarily the same as consuming it. On rare occasion I have tasted something that I did not eat. Jesus’ call to this man to follow Him was distasteful to the man. He turned not to Jesus as at first, but turned away from the Lord. Here we see God's call through the Lord Jesus and man’s responsibility before God to live by faith in the Son of God. He heard the call and then decided to reject that call.

Was there some wonderful personal merit in me that saved me from my sin? Of course not, I was saved by faith in the precious blood of the Lord Jesus and His finished work upon the cross of Calvary for my sin. Have I reached continual perfection as a Christian in this present life? No, I have not and neither has anyone else other than the Lord Jesus.

I am simply one 28 years ago who was saved by faith in God’s saving grace in Chicago. God has kept me saved through this journey. Now at 65 years of age and much closer to being with our Lord Jesus, my trust and faith remains the same in all that Jesus did for me at the cross of Calvary. Hebrews 7:25 says the Lord Jesus at this hour on the right hand of the Father and is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

From my 28 years of Bible study I have learned what God begins by His grace will end in His glory. On that great and glorious day when I am absent from this body through death I will at that moment be present with the Lord.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I just wanted to throw something out there to look at.
For a moment forget the names of Theological beliefs ie Calvinism or Arminianism and let us logically look at justification.
Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
I post these verses to ask the question who initiated the relationship between Abraham and God? We would say God of course.

Next question, what work did Abraham do that justified him before God? Of course from the verses quoted Abraham "believed God" and this was accounted to him for righteousness. Now why is only Abraham called, and why is only he justified though there were many thousands of people in the world around him?

So if Abraham is called, and justified by God alone not by any works he had done does this not illustrate what Romans 8 is saying?
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover [b]whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

If Abraham had anything "worthy" of justification in himself does he not have something to boast of?

Amen, Roaringlamb

Quote: "Next question, what work did Abraham do that justified him before God? Of course from the verses quoted Abraham "believed God" and this was accounted to him for righteousness. Now why is only Abraham called, and why is only he justified though there were many thousands of people in the world around him?"

Yes, Who gave Abraham something to believe? It was not what Abraham did, it was what God did that made him righteous in believing God. God accounted righteousness in Abraham, Just like Christ is made our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. Nothing on our part except to believe what God has revealed in us by the Son. Are you accounted or Made by birthing?

I know this is a lot of scripture to read at one time but it is all here. Nobody can change it, I don't care who you are.

1 Corinthians 1:17-31 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Unto us who are saved, whose power saves us?

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Who is the Wisdom of God, and the Power of God unto salvation?

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

You choose? That kind of wisdom is destroyed.
How are we saved? Not by my might but by His. How are we chosen? In God's wisdom, understanding and prudence, not ours.

hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Man's highest capacity to choose only gets him the bare foolishness of God, which if you can find any foolishness in God then you choose.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

What makes man's puny measure of faith that all man has think he can choose God or even harder, Jesus Christ as the Son of God?

God has put away and made void that measure of faith and made the faith of the Son of God the only thing that will save us.

1 Corinthians 1:28-29 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Who's Faith? Not mine. Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Don't be fooled by the new versions of the bible and change the faith of Christ to the Faith in Christ. It is neither, the Greek simply means the Faith Christ Jesus or the Faith Christ or Faith Son of God. It is the Faith Christ in which we believe unto salvation.

Col 2:20, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Made in Christ and Christ Made in us. Only believe and that is given to us.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Who do we glory in? Who we are chosen in. Who is chose before the foundation of the world to be in us?

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In The Good Pleasure of His Will, In Christ:

Phillip

Hi Just one thing to do with reading scripture:when it was written it wasnt devided up into chapter and verse.
So the origins of the these verses go back to hebrews 3 or earlier even; not the start of hebrews 6.
Dont look at these verses as if you were a calvanist or not a calvanist look at them in context of the book of hebrews.Co back to the origins of the conversation.
So to take the verse out of context of what went earlier,I think we miss out somewhat.
To summarise these chapters:
Heb 3:The writer starts talking about being partakers of the heavenly calling,about Moses and The hardening of heart of that generation and why they didnt enter his rest.The writer then gives the advice:
[color=FF0000]Hbr 3:12\t\tTake heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.[/color]and says at the end of Heb3[color=FF0000]Hbr 3:18\t\tAnd to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?[/color]
[color=FF0000]Hbr 3:19\t\tSo we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.[/color]The start of Heb 4 Continues about entering into rest[color=FF0000]Hbr 4:1\t¶\tLet us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.[/color]
The next verse is interesting because it tells us why The Generation didnt enter rest it was because of faith.
[color=FF0000]Hbr 4:2\t\tFor unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].[/color]The next verse explains that we who believe do enter his rest
[color=FF0000]Hbr 4:3\t\tFor we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.[/color]
The rest of the chapter stays on the theme of rest and unbelief and then turns its attention towards Jesus the Great High Priest and this continues right through Heb 5 and at the end of 5 he begins to say to them that you should be teachers not partakers in baby food but meat ie.they hadnt matured and this continued into the start of heb6

[color=CC0000]Hbr 6:1\t¶\tTherefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,[/color]
[color=FF0000]Hbr 6:2\t\tOf the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.[/color]
The prior chapters before heb6 are the writer describing again the baby food (paraphrase)
Then we encounter chap6 verse 4-6
Which could mean that he was explaining to reader how absurd and slow you are to think you could loose your salvation.(basically of course you cant loose your salvation, how many times do I have to tell you)
The reason I say this is because just after that he explains about the bearing of good fruit and thorns and then he says in
[color=CC0000]Hbr 6:9\t¶\tBut, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.[/color]
Basically the good fruit are accompanying your salvation so put behind your worries about losing your salvation the fruits are following,you must be genuinely saved.
Some great preachers believe you can loose salvation, some believe you cannot.
Either way I think Heb 6.4-6 is about salvation assurance rather than loosing salvation.
To Finish 1.Read the prior chapters before and after a verse and 2. remember when this was written their were no breaks between chapters one read into another (you'll miss out sometimes because of this)
Rgds staff

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jhn 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Now just because He went to the cross, do you think He is now going to loose those that are chosen and given by the Father? Now we are being given to His Body the Church, and the "gates of Hell will not prevail against it". Even if you could fall away, do you think God is not Faithful to Christ and Christ is not faithful to the Father by saving and keeping those that can loose such precious salvation? I don't think so.

I agree, 4-6 is not saying you can loose your salvation. It is saying even if you could it would be impossible to renew you again to repentance, which is impossible by the Christ that is born again in you. Do you thinK this new birth is just a statement in scripture that means nothing? NOT! This mystery given to Paul is the greatest revelation of Scripture, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".
Every time Paul mentions this mystery, he is speaking of the birthing of Christ in a person. Paul never says born again, he uses mystery instead. Christ in you, you in Christ, being born again, being born from above are all the mystery of the birthing to Paul

In Christ: Phillip

All the promises in the Bible are conditional.

"Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement." - 1 Peter 3:6

"as long as ye do well" sure sounds conditional to me.

What about Demas? He went back to the world.

What about enduring to the end? There must be those who won't continue enduring and will not get to Heaven.

Just so you don't think that I'm living in eternal insecurity. I'm not living in dread that some morning I'll wake up and realize that I'm not saved anymore. Here's a quote from David Bercot that states what I believe, "Does an obedient son need to worry about losing his inheritance?"

Jordan

Was the prodigal son obedient? Only when he returned to his Father. He was still a son, and the father kept looking for him to return. We are son's also by the Seed of God Jesus Christ in us, birthed with all the rights still in place not matter how far or hard we try to run. I cannot runaway form my earthly father and mother heritage, I am still their son. How much more being a son of God. My earthly father and mother would do all they could to bring me back for my running. How much more being a son of God, The Cross will not be to no avail.

Even before the Cross: Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
How much more after the Cross. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

If God has birthed His Son in me, it will accomplish what He wants for His pleasure, no matter hard I run. I will learn obedience.
If Christ, how much more me? Hbr 5:8 Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; So will we as sons and daughters. Eternal security is not up to the believer it is of God.

Lev 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish [his] vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein. Was Christ perfect? Is He still perfect that is birthed in you? Are you accepted as Christ is?

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set [Him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Isa 55:11 So shall My Word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

Who is the Word and Seed in us? 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible Seed, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Word, The Life in Him. Jesus Christ Born Again in the believer. Again, if you are birthed by God's Seed Jesus Christ, the birthing will not return void.

That is why it is impossible to fall away from God unto no repentance, for it could not happen, it would take away the Cross of Christ and He will not be sent to the Cross again. This is the Peace of God. Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

There is a falling away that cannot be renewed and that is only because of unbelief, but if they believe and are born again they cannot fall away to no repentance. It is impossible.

Hebrews 4:2-9 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

It was preached, as in Heb 4: but it was unbelief that kept them from entering in, so they could not fall away, they never had it.
The assurance is, It is impossible to those that have interred into Christ Jesus and His rest and peace for those to fall away.

In Christ: Phillip

homefree89 wrote:
All the promises in the Bible are conditional.

"Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement." - 1 Peter 3:6

"as long as ye do well" sure sounds conditional to me.

What about Demas? He went back to the world.

What about enduring to the end? There must be those who won't continue enduring and will not get to Heaven.

Just so you don't think that I'm living in eternal insecurity. I'm not living in dread that some morning I'll wake up and realize that I'm not saved anymore. Here's a quote from David Bercot that states what I believe, "Does an obedient son need to worry about losing his inheritance?"

Just an obvious question I suppose to this quote:Obedient son lives to be 50 and remains obedient but then is disobedient once just before he gets hit by a bus and dies.Does he loose his inheritance?
Rgd staff

staff wrote:

Just an obvious question I suppose to this quote:Obedient son lives to be 50 and remains obedient but then is disobedient once just before he gets hit by a bus and dies.Does he loose his inheritance?
Rgd staff

No, if you have child that trys to please you and do what's right, but sometimes fails would characterize him as disobedient? Would you take him out of your will because he sometimes disobeys you?

Jordan

RE:Qoute below by homefree89:

No, if you have child that trys to please you and do what's right, but sometimes fails would characterize him as disobedient? Would you take him out of your will because he sometimes disobeys you

Well in the case I outlined we dont know whether or not the supposed child would have continued in his disobedience or returned to be obedient because he died.Also if your are obedient,disobedient,obedient,disobedient etc does that mean he was saved,not saved,saved,not saved.Thirdly is disobedience a series of wrongs or just one wrong;what I mean is David was disobedient and he did only one thing wrong in getting a census of the nation.Is disobedience just sin or a series of sins?
No I would not take him out of my will for being sometimes disobedient nor for disobeying alot,nor for disobeying me totally.However their would be consequences

Rgds Staff

[b]I would like to bring this discussion back to simple arguments if we could, as it is exhausting reading everyones five page thesis.[/b]

I have ben told according to those in this forum that share calvinistic beliefs, that God does not do things according to foreknowledge, but he only does things according to His "immutable will".

If God only does what is in His will, then I want to know why He goes against His own will by choosing some for heaven, and some for hell?

[b][color=FF3300]II Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, [u]not willing[/u] that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/color][/b]

I underlined it incase anyone's theology was preventing them from actually reading what it says. So, one of you explain why He goes against His own will.

Though God is willing this does not negate man's responsibility to repent which he is unable to do apart from a work of the Holy Spirit. Man is not eternally damned not because he was predestined to be damned, but because he did not repent towards God and believe on Christ, which again is impossible for man to do without a work of the Holy Spirit.

Also, does not the creator have the "free will" to make of his creation what he wishes? Read Romans 9 and look at how Pharaoh is spoken of. He was a vessel created to show God's power, yet did not God know that he would perish in the Red Sea?

Here is a question for you to wrestle with
If God is omnipotent, where does that stop and yet remain omnipotence? If He is omniscient, then when does that stop and still remain omniscience?

Have fun brother :-D

Ben,

II Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

You emphasized 'not willing'. I agree that the Lord is not willing that any should perish. But take a closer look at the verse. It says that God is longsuffering to whom? Us.

Who is the 'Us' referring to? The Beloved
Verse 8 - But Beloved

Who are the Beloved? The people Peter is addressing in his letter.
Verse 1 - This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you

Who is Peter writing to in this letter? Christians
2 Peter 1:1 - Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

But this is the second letter, what does the first say? 1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ

So clearly Peter is saying that the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to his elect concerning his second coming. The Lord is longsuffering because he is not willing that anyone elected according to the foreknowledge of God should perish but that all of them come to repentance.

Though God is willing this does not negate man's responsibility to repent which he is unable to do apart from a work of the Holy Spirit. Man is not eternally damned not because he was predestined to be damned, but because he did not repent towards God and believe on Christ, which again is impossible for man to do without a work of the Holy Spirit.

I just want one person who believes cavinistically (if that's a word) to admit that they believe God made men and according to His will and then just damned some to hell, and elected some to heaven.

Everyone I discuss this with tries to weasel out and say, "well, God didn't damn them, they were sinful, so they deserved to be damned." Yet at the same time, they do as you have, and say that man cannot repent unless God moves on him, changes his understanding, and justifies him.

Would one of you please hold true to what you believe?

If God chooses not to do those three things I just mentioned, then He has chosen to damn the person to hell according to your theology. You cannot have it both ways.

If one of you would admit that you believe that, and stop using circular logic, I would be satisfied, we could move on in our discussion.

Here is a question for you to wrestle withIf God is omnipotent, where does that stop and yet remain omnipotence? If He is omniscient, then when does that stop and still remain omniscience?

To answer these questions, let me ask two.

Do you think that God is so omnipotent that He can give man true free will? (meaning freedom from anyone's will exept their own, not bound by understanding or desires.)

Do you think that God is so omniscient that He can forget our sins?

Well Jay, you got me there, I don't have the knowledge necessary to argue the point off of that passage of scripture.

I would like to hear your response to my post before this one.

Have you read what Jay wrote?

Do you think that God is so omnipotent that He can give man true free will? (meaning freedom from anyone's will exept their own, not bound by understanding or desires.)

Again the point is that man is "free yet bound", out of his heart proceed the deeds he does. It is much like a boat rudder. Though the boat may go seemingly on its own, the hand that controls the rudder controls its direction. Sin is at the rudder of every man thus directing his movements, that is until there is a new hand upon the rudder which would be after regeneration.

Do you think that God is so omniscient that He can forget our sins?

It is not a matter of Him forgetting our sins, but rather that he has blotted them out by having Christ die in the place of the guilty party. The blood has erased the handwriting that was against us.

Think of a court room. If the judge said to the criminal, "I am willing to forget your crimes, and let you go" there would not be justice. But God is absolutely just. Therefore it is much more like this scenario. The judge declares the senrence of death upon the criminal, and then another dies in their place to fulfill the requirements of the law. By doing this justice has been accomplished, and so has mercy. Then when the criminal is set free, it is grace.

Ben, I understand your position. You struggle with the idea that God can choose some men and not choose others. You view this as not being fair. I have struggled with that myself. But, what I must do is forget my definition of 'fairness' and go by what the word of God says.

I am convinced from scripture that God hardens whom He will harden and has mercy on whom He will have mercy. I wish things were done differently and that all men would be saved, but we know that is just not how things work.

I just want one person who believes cavinistically (if that's a word) to admit that they believe God made men and according to His will and then just damned some to hell, and elected some to heaven.

I don't believe that. I believe that God created man and His creation was Good. It was man who fell in the garden through Adam. All men are spiritually dead because of Adam's sin. It is God who according to His own Will redeems a people through Jesus Christ. The rest are left in their state of wickedness to reap what they sow.

As a Christian I believe all of the following:
1. God is sovereign in salvation.
2. Man is responsible for his actions.
3. God is completely good and there is no sin in Him.

I don't believe that. I believe that God created man and His creation was Good. It was man who fell in the garden through Adam. All men are spiritually dead because of Adam's sin. It is God who according to His own Will redeems a people through Jesus Christ. The rest are left in their state of wickedness to reap what they sow.

Do you not see, that by God not saving them, He is damning them to hell?

If you believe that by God choosing someone, that they will be justified.

Then you must belive that by God not choosing them to be justified He is choosing that they be damned.

Did not God create Adam with the ability to sin against Him?

If so, then He knew by doing so that Adam would sin against Him.

[b]And if He did that willingly, then He willingly damned thousands to hell without hope of salvation because [u]He chose not to redeem them.[/u][/b]

Why won't ya'll just say in simple english that you believe God damned the whole world to hell, except for the few who He would redeem?

And if you won't say that, tell me why God will not redeem the whole world?

Do you not see, that by God not saving them, He is damning them to hell?

If you believe that by God choosing someone, that they will be justified.
Then you must belive that by God not choosing them to be justified He is choosing that they be damned.

Did not God create Adam with the ability to sin against Him?

If so, then He knew by doing so that Adam would sin against Him.

And if He did that willingly, then He willingly damned thousands to hell without hope of salvation because He chose not to redeem them.

Why won't ya'll just say in simple english that you believe God damned the whole world to hell, except for the few who He would redeem?

And if you won't say that, tell me why God will not redeem the whole world?

Paul answers this objection to His Election in Romans 9:14-24
"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

Ben, you might not like this answer, but it is the answer to your objection.

So then in plain english, you believe that God ordained that some are damned to hell, and some are elected to heaven without a choice in the matter?

Just like that, yes or no?

Based off of both your and my last posts.

God ordained that man should walk with Him in everlasting communion, and fellowship.
Man sinned, and brought death upon all men
God has decreed that man must repent to have everlasting life
Man has a responsiblity to God now, not vice versa.

I agree with you on those four points RL

Now how does repentance happen?
How does a man gain knowledge of his sin?
How is it that a man can walk for years without caring for his soul, but can suddenly feel conviction?

Right, but now how does a man go from hating God to wanting to please God?

This is important, as it will help to start you off either secure in Christ or inseccure in yourself

Brother Richard good to have you back in on this conversation. :-D

staff wrote:
RE:Qoute below by homefree89:

No, if you have child that trys to please you and do what's right, but sometimes fails would characterize him as disobedient? Would you take him out of your will because he sometimes disobeys you

Well in the case I outlined we dont know whether or not the supposed child would have continued in his disobedience or returned to be obedient because he died.Also if your are obedient,disobedient,obedient,disobedient etc does that mean he was saved,not saved,saved,not saved.Thirdly is disobedience a series of wrongs or just one wrong;what I mean is David was disobedient and he did only one thing wrong in getting a census of the nation.Is disobedience just sin or a series of sins?
No I would not take him out of my will for being sometimes disobedient nor for disobeying alot,nor for disobeying me totally.However their would be consequences

Rgds Staff

Staff,

I think you're going about this in the wrong way. I'm not saying, if you sin your not a Christian. What I'm saying is that, you can willfully go back to the world and choose not to live for Christ anymore (like Demas).

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." - 1 Peter 2:20-21

Jordan

The Lord Convicts him of his sin. As Paul said:
[b][color=CC0000]
Galatians 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[/color][/b]

God bears witness in his conscience of the righteous judgment of God in sending him to hell.

The man is fearful of the wrath of God and the eternal destiny of his soul, and he will cry out to God for mercy, repenting. Then he will put his faith in Jesus Christ to save him, and God justifies him.

[b]The tool God will use to judge men at the judgment seat is the same tool He uses to bring them to repentance. It is their conscience.[/b]

It is only by the [u]revelation of ones sinfulness, and the righteousness of God's judgment that a man can repent and believe God[/u] for eternal life.

God bears witness in his conscience of the righteous judgment of God in sending him to hell.

From your own words you have spoken what we have been getting at all along.

It is God that does the work, man has no ability to do any work toward his salvation. This should cause us to rejoice if we have repented, knowing that the conviction was not brought about by ourselves, but rather God who has begun a good work in us, and sustains that work until the day of Christ.

It is only by the revelation of ones sinfulness, and the righteousness of God's judgment that a man can repent and believe God for eternal life.

Who reveals ones sinfulness?

Homefree89 wrote

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." - 1 Peter 2:20-21

Jordan

Yes that is clearer however it doesnt prove that demas looses his salvation.It might just mean he looses all the blessings and advantages in this life and will ultimately loose his rewards in heaven rather than his salvation,
rgds staff

Quote: by Ben, "Do you think that God is so omniscient that He can forget our sins?"

No.

That is why He is Justified in saving some by His Son through Grace by His Faith and Through The Grace of God, as Noah.

Genesis 6:1-14 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

((But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.)

These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Grace and Condemnation. But,

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Condemnation on all who sin, but Grace unto some, and No condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus because they believe God through the Holy Spirit.

In Christ: Phillip

roaringlamb wrote:

From your own words you have spoken what we have been getting at all along

It is God that does the work, man has no ability to do any work toward his salvation. This should cause us to rejoice if we have repented, knowing that the conviction was not brought about by ourselves, but rather God who has begun a good work in us, and sustains that work until the day of Christ.

What I meant by "God bears witness" is "The Holy Spirit compounds the conviction of the man's own conscience. If that makes it clearer.

However, [b]conviction alone does not save a man.[/b] It only convicts him. From that point a man has the choice of either repenting, or not repenting. Whichever he chooses determines the Lord's next step.

(For clarification, the Lord knows what he himself is going to do next. Simply because the man does not repent, does not mean that the Lord would not come and reveal his sinfulness to the man.)

[b][color=CC0000]
Romans 2:15

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)[/color][/b]

Man does not need God's help to know that what he has done is wrong, God implanted a conscience within each one of us to convict us of sin. This is why the world stands in judgement. Without the conscience, God would be unjust in his judgments.

The conviction was brought about by God implanting it in everyones DNA. The compounded conviction of the Holy Spirit was not. The two work together to bring a man to repentance.

The word conscience means - con = with - science = knowledge. So the word conscience means "with knowledge." God has given man knowledge of right and wrong within himself.

Here's a list of what takes place according to scripture:

Conviction - Conviction happens by mans conscience, and the Holy Spirit.

Repentance - Man repents, God does not repent for him, this is a choice that man makes.

Believe - Man believes in God they put their faith in Jesus Christ.

Justification - God justifies a man, nothing a man does outside of repenting and believing will give him salvation. This cannot be denied. If a man were to say that he was saved and then say that God believes for Him, and God repented for Him, he would be called a heretic and a sinner. And told to repent.

I think I got the answer to your question Jay as well, if not let me know.

Here's a list of what takes place according to scripture:
Conviction - Conviction happens by mans conscience, and the Holy Spirit.
Repentance - Man repents, God does not repent for him, this is a choice that man makes.
Believe - Man believes in God they put their faith in Jesus Christ.
Justification - God justifies a man, nothing a man does outside of repenting and believing will give him salvation. This cannot be denied. If a man were to say that he was saved and then say that God believes for Him, and God repented for Him, he would be called a heretic and a sinner. And told to repent.
I think I got the answer to your question Jay as well, if not let me know.

I agree with all of this. I must stress however the internal calling of God cannot be resisted by man. (Romans 8:30). Therefore some men are internally called and some are not. Those who are repent, those who are not...do not.

Well Jay, at least we agree on the fundamentals of salvation, and how a person is saved.

But I'm afraid that on anything else having to do with salvation we just can't seem to see eye to eye.
--------------------------------------------------

Now, as for the issue of internal/external calling...

I agree with all of this. I must stress however the internal calling of God cannot be resisted by man. (Romans 8:30). Therefore some men are internally called and some are not. Those who are repent, those who are not...do not.

I still am at a loss as to how you determine with any verse, not just Romans 8:29-30, that it is an internal or external calling that is being mentioned.

I find throughout the whole NT many scriptures that use the words call, calling, and called.

[b]Are you determining the meaning of the word based off of a theological stance, or off of the original meaning of the word in context with the rest of the verse?[/b]

Here are some verses that should make internal and external calling more clear:

1 Corinthians 1:22-23
"For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

Three types of people are mentioned:
- Jews
- Gentiles
- The Internally Called

We are able to discern that the 'called' is an internal calling because the Jews and Gentiles who reject the gospel are not referred to as being 'called'.

In the above verses the Jews and Gentiles hear the external calling of the gospel.
The Jews reply: "We need a sign to believe."
The Gentiles reply: "This is foolishness"
The Internally Called reply: "This is the power of God and the wisdom of God"

All three heard the external call, but only those who heard the internal call (from among the Jews and Gentiles) responded in faith.

Is this not internal?

Eph 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Hey Jay, & Christinyou, don't take this the wrong way, but I have to ask the question so that I know what to talk about and what not to talk about.

Do you believe that when you interpret scripture, that it is ok to pull one verse out of the Bible and form a theology based on that one scripture?

Or do you believe that on the contrary you must balance that scripture number one by the full context of the passage it is in, and then number two by other scriptures from other passages in context?

Scripture interprets scripture. I hope that in my writings I have demonstrated that I pay close attention to context and style. I also try to remember what a verse explicitly says and what it implicitly says.
Explicit - expressing all details in a clear and obvious way, leaving no doubt as to the intended meaning
Implicit - not stated, but understood in what is expressed

If a verse implicitly says one thing, it must not contradict another verse that explicitly says another thing.

For example:
John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

This verse explicitly says that whoever believes in Jesus will not perish and will have everlasting life.
This verse implicitly says that every single person has the opportunity to believe in Jesus.

Contrast this verse with Romans 8:30
“Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

This verse explicitly says that all who are called are justified. Thus this verse explicitly says that the reason some people are not justified is because they are not Called.

So we must deduce that the implicit meaning of John 3:16 is incorrect based upon the explicit meaning of Romans 8:30. Every single person does not have the opportunity to believe because not every single person is Called.

And what about context? Do you think that a verse's meaning is implicitly tied to the context in which it was written, or is it available to be pulled out and singled out regardless of the context?

2 Peter 3:9 is a good example of context.

2 Peter 3:9 is a good example of context.

Does that mean that you believe we must interpret a verse first by context?

Or do you believe that it is ok to interpret a verse without examining context to determine its meaning?

If our interpretation of a verse does not match the surrounding context then our interpretation is error.

For example, as I mentioned [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=14831&forum=36&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=1]before[/url] concerning 2 Peter 3:9:

II Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

You emphasized 'not willing'. I agree that the Lord is not willing that any should perish. But take a closer look at the verse. It says that God is longsuffering to whom? Us.

Who is the 'Us' referring to? The Beloved
Verse 8 - But Beloved

Who are the Beloved? The people Peter is addressing in his letter.
Verse 1 - This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you

Who is Peter writing to in this letter? Christians
2 Peter 1:1 - Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

But this is the second letter, what does the first say? 1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ

So clearly Peter is saying that the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to his elect concerning his second coming. The Lord is longsuffering because he is not willing that anyone elected according to the foreknowledge of God should perish but that all of them come to repentance.

Ok, cool. I just wanted to clear up the context issue before I responded to what you said earlier.

I gotta go to lunch now, so I will post later.

Ok Jay, since we cleared up the issue of context, I am moving back to where are discussion left off. The last thing you had said was this:

Here are some verses that should make internal and external calling more clear:

1 Corinthians 1:22-23
"For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

Three types of people are mentioned:
- Jews
- Gentiles
- The Internally Called

We are able to discern that the 'called' is an internal calling because the Jews and Gentiles who reject the gospel are not referred to as being 'called'.

In the above verses the Jews and Gentiles hear the external calling of the gospel.
The Jews reply: "We need a sign to believe."
The Gentiles reply: "This is foolishness"
The Internally Called reply: "This is the power of God and the wisdom of God"

All three heard the external call, but only those who heard the internal call (from among the Jews and Gentiles) responded in faith.

To start with, the verses you quoted are taken out of the context that they are written in. Paul is not addressing election, nor is he talking about the called. He is teaching about the wisdom of God in using preaching as the means of exposing the gospel. Let's take a further look:

[b][color=CC0000]
I Corinthians 1:1-31

1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

3Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

4I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

5That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17For Christ sent me not to baptize, [u]but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.[/u]

19For it is written, [u]I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe?[/u] where is the disputer of this world? [u]hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?[/u]

21[u]For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.[/u]

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24[u]But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.[/u]

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.[/color][/b]
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The first thing I want to say is that Paul uses the words "called" and "saved" interchangeably throughout this whole passage.

The most common meaning of the word "called" in this passage of scripture according to strong's is:

[b]1) called, invited (to a banquet)

a) invited (by God in the proclamation of the Gospel) to obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom through Christ

b) called to (the discharge of) some office

1) divinely selected and appointed[/b]

As you see, the primary definition of the word called there is that of an inviting, a preaching of the gospel. The secondary meaning is that of what you believe. So we can gather that the most probable meaning is that of the first definition. A general call or invite. And then only if that did not make sense, would we move to the secondary meaning of the word to find out the other option.

We can see here the meaning of the word "saved" as referenced by strong's.

[b]1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

a) one (from injury or peril)

1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue

b) to save in the technical biblical sense

1) negatively

a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment

b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance[/b]

So we can see by the definition that Paul is obviously talking about salvation. He is addressing believers, so it is apparent what he is discussing.

When you cross reference the two words to each other with their most common or obvious meaning, Paul is using them to describe those that have been invited to be saved, and then to those who are now saved. This is why the verse about salvation occurs later in the passage, and not at the beginning.

Paul is not discussing the issue of predestination, being elected by an immutable will, nor is he speaking about this as a cross reference to another passage. He is making a very plain statement about the wisdom of God in using preaching as the means for people to be saved.

Note verse 26, Paul says: [b][color=CC0000]26For ye see your calling, brethren, [u]how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble[/u], [i]are called[/i]:[/color][/b]

First note, the words "are called" do not have a meaning, they were added by the translators in an attempt to make it make sense. It already made sense however without their mistake.

Pauls do you see your "calling" which that word means:

[b]1) a calling, calling to

2) a call, invitation

a) to a feast

b) of the divine invitation to embrace salvation of God[/b]

So brethren, you see your divine invitation, how there are not many wise or noble. (then we go to the next verse) It says because God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to confound the wise.

God wants people with Spiritual hunger to respond to the gospel, not people who are so full of their own intellect.

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[b]Ok, so this passage was fun to open up and disect, but it spoke nothing of internal or external calling. There was no teaching on it. No reference of it when its meanings are understood. [u]So I am still wanting to find where the scripture teaches us about an internal calling or an external calling, and how they work.[/u][/b]

Sorry this was so long, but they usually are when you go into context and word meanings.

I am reading this and I must respond to something right away. You wrote:

As you see, the primary definition of the word called there is that of an inviting, a preaching of the gospel. The secondary meaning is that of what you believe. So we can gather that the most probable meaning is that of the first definition. A general call or invite. And then only if that did not make sense, would we move to the secondary meaning of the word to find out the other option.

Are you saying that all who physically hear the gospel respond by saying 'Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God'? Because that is how the 'called' respond in these verses.

To start with, the verses you quoted are taken out of the context that they are written in. Paul is not addressing election, nor is he talking about the called. He is teaching about the wisdom of God in using preaching as the means of exposing the gospel.

Ben, the same preaching is given to the Jews, the Gentiles and the Called. The preaching is foolishness to those who are perishing (Jews and Gentiles who are not called but hear the preaching) but it is not foolishness to those who are called (of the Jews and Gentiles). You are mingling the preaching of the gospel with the call of the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful , by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord .

Strong's Greek Dictionary
2564. kaleo called;
Search for G2564 in KJVSL
kalew kaleo kal-eh'-o
akin to the base of 2753; to "call" (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):--bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was (called)).

See Greek 2753

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called , both Jews and Greeks , Christ the power of God , and the wisdom of God .

Strong's Greek Dictionary
2822. kletos called;
Search for G2822 in KJVSL
klhtoV kletos klay-tos'
from the same as 2821; invited, i.e. appointed, or (specially), a saint:--called.

Php 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you, will also perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Ye were called. The word "called" here does not refer merely to an invitation or an offer of life, but to the effectual influence which had been put forth; which had inclined them to embrace the gospel. Ro 9:12. See Mr 2:17; Lu 5:32; Ga 1:6; 5:8,13; Eph 1:4; Col 3:16. In this sense the word often occurs in the Scriptures, and is designed to denote a power, or influence, that goes forth with the external invitation, and that makes it effectual. That power is the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament , that by means of death , for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament , they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance .

Again, called;
Strong's Greek Dictionary
2564. kaleo
Search for G2564 in KJVSL
kalew kaleo kal-eh'-o
akin to the base of 2753; to "call" (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):--bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was (called)).

Unless you are called you cannot answer the Phone, that is the Holy Spirit. How can you believe unless the Holy Spirit called and gives revelation of Christ in you the Hope of Glory?

In Christ: Phillip

Yes, God did choose some to be saved as a gift to Jesus for dying in our place. Those not prayed into grace in the Holy Spirit are stuck with those whose eyes are shut, and ears are stopped up, in hell, except where God chooses to have mercy and compassion. Perhaps it is His mercy and compassion that any can be prayed into the Body of Christ at all.

[color=993300]KJV Isaiah 49:1. Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2. And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a Polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3. And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4. Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5. And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7. Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8. Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9. That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10. They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
11. And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
12. Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
13. Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
14. But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
15. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
16. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
17. Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
18. Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the Lord, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
19. For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20. The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
21. Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
22. Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23. And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
24. Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
25. But thus saith the Lord, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
26. And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
[/color]

Sorry, I'm not a Calvinist, or an Arminian, and don't know any other categories. I just know there is a place where we say yes, or no to God. The rest leading up to it is His work, and the following after the work of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

JaySaved wrote:

How convenient for us. And how depressingly final. That means that no one can be prayed into the body of Christ. And it means that the words in Scripture, 'many are called, but few are chosen' are a lie.

Romans 8:30 says that all who are called are also justified. Matthew 22:14 says that many are called, but few are chosen. Is this an inconsistency? On the surface it appears to be, but even though the same word is used (Called), we are discussing two different events. In Matthew the Call is the gospel call made by the servants of the king. In Romans we see the Call is a unique call unto salvation made by God.

Here is another example:
1 Corinthians 1:22-24, “For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

Three types of people are mentioned in these verses: Jews, Gentiles, and the Called. The Jews demand signs because they do not believe the gospel. Greeks seeks wisdom and they do not find it in the gospel. The Called—containing both Jews and Gentiles—believe and know that Christ is the Son of God. All heard the gospel (External Call) but only some believed (Internal Call).

Yes, I know God knew me from before the beginning of time. He knew everyone before the beginnning of time.

God does know all things, but we must be very careful how we use the word KNEW. God has knowledge of all people, but he does not KNOW everyone relationally.
In Matthew 7:22-24 Jesus says, “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' Jesus said, ‘I never knew you.’ He doesn’t say I knew you but I stopped.

He knew who would choose Him, and who would not. But God did not decide for us. He prepared us. He woos us. He allows us the yes or no choice, and how hard we work to please Him.

He did know who would respond in faith, but this is not the basis for our salvation. Ephesians 1:11 says, “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” Notice what this verse does say and what it does not say. It does say that God works all things according to the counsel of His will. It does not say that God works all things according to the decisions men make. That is a big difference.
1 John 4:19 says, “We love because he first loved us.” In John 17:6 Jesus says, “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.” In John 17:9 Jesus says, “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.” He is speaking of his disciples but he is also speaking of all disciples. John 17:20-21 says, “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” Scripture is clear that it is God who initiates and chooses.

After the yes or no, He works with us to get us ready to rule and reign with Christ. How we do on earth determines our rank and responsibilities in Heaven. Or are you going to say God has foreordained that too?

God chooses those whom he will but he does not work for us. He has told us that we are responsible and must do good works. Ephesians 2:10 says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

But you are basically saying that God is a spiritual rapist, on a major power trip. With your viewpoint, I might as well twiddle my thumbs until death. After all, what I think or do doesn't count, right? I believe in Christ and follow Him, but it was never anything I had any right to choose. God chose for me. I don't count to God. I am an automaton, and nothing more. God doesn't want my love and trust, only my grudging obedience.

Earlier you said that we must work hard to please him. Do you not understand that our works are not the basis of our justification (past, present, or future)? This reminds me of something roaringlamb said earlier in this discussion:

“I have struggled, and still do (alot), simply accepting that Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the Law, and He is the Perfect One, yet God sees me "in Him". God loves me because of Christ. I fear many have fallen under the ideology that they must continue on in morals of their own making to somehow present this before God, but does that not put Christ and His work aside, and create a "justification" by works?

I fear that you have stepped into this area of a works based justification. I personally work for Christ because I love him. He gave his life for me and he has chosen me, not based upon anything I have done but simply because of his mercy and grace. I do not work to please him…I already please him. I work because I love him. Simple as that. I don’t care about any rewards in heaven other than I will be with Christ. I don’t want any crowns or mansions, just give me Christ!

Please, ask for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. God really does care what we decide, and only then takes over again. But we can still damn ourselves. We need only curse the Holy Spirit.

So God is nervously pacing the halls of heaven begging and wishing that someone would come to a saving knowledge of himself? God is powerless to save someone even though he desires that all men come to a knowledge of the truth? If he is not powerless, then does he choose not to save even thought he desires all men be saved? Is God nervous after someone chooses him? Is he afraid that someone might curse the Holy Spirit and then he would lose them forever?

I am afraid that this is not Biblical. This however is Biblical:
John 6:38-40, “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Think about it. You may want a pre-planned destiny. I don't. I want the option of surprise, and the enjoyment of God's continuous adaption to our fits and starts here on earth. And I think God would be bored to death without choosing not to focus on the end result.

You may want to try Open Theism. It is a heresy but it closely resembles what you “want”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Theism

If God can forgive our sins, and forget them completely, can He not also choose not to know the end result except in a general way, the same way that I know that I will die if the Rapture doesn't come before hand?

There is no limit to God’s knowledge.
Psalm 147:5 “Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.”
Ezekiel 11:5, “And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and he said to me, "Say, Thus says the LORD: So you think, O house of Israel. For I know the things that come into your mind.”
Acts 15:17-18 “That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”
Romans 11:33-36, “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
Hebrews 4:13, “And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.”

Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ. In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.

On the contrary, it is humbling to think that God chose me for salvation. I have no room to boast except in God. I did nothing to earn my salvation. I simply became aware of God and responded as I desired to respond—in affirmation. You see, you have room to boast if you theology is true. You say that you chose God, but what about those who do not choose God? Are they not as smart as you are? Are they not as wise? Are you better than them? If God draws all men equally to himself, then there must be something special about you to respond as others do not…

I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.

I fear you do not know me well at all. I am a man who struggles daily. I am a man who is saved by grace and has a loving heavenly father to help me through my struggles. I rest peaceably in the security of Christ, but I strive daily to honor him in my life because I love him and desire to serve him. I serve him because of who He is, not because of what I can gain. Help me Lord to always serve you with a humble spirit!

God chose me too, But I chose Him in return. I am obsessed with Him as I ever was with my first love at 13. I love Him more and more each day, and try to show it.

Great! I am thankful that you are a child of God. I encourage you to continue to serve him and love him more and more each day.

You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.

UniqueWebRev I encourage you to pray over these words you have written. You are making an assumption about another Christian. You know very little about my relationship with Christ. You are accusing me of ‘token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, and worship without value.’
Pray over those words you spoke and may God forgive you of your slander. I love God and desire to honor him every day. God knows that and my conscience is clear.

Now, would you please respond to the substance of my post on Romans 8:29-30 instead of launching into a diatribe about myself and my relationship with God.

Jay,

My 'diatribe' was not about you or your relationship with God, but what you said was your means of salvation, and consequent always perfect state of salvation, for if once saved, then always saved. Or isn't that what you meant?

I speak only to the words spoken, not to the man or woman behind them, because I only know the words. Whenever I am accused of personally attacking someone, when I am going entirely by their statements, I wonder what it is that I accidentally said that struck home to cause such a violent reaction.

In this forum, I am too new to have any consistant idea of who you are. I have seen your name. I have read some of you have said that I agreed with, and some not.

I am sorry you took my reaction to your statements personally. They were not meant so.

My apologies for not knowing you, but only what you said, for it is what I based what I said upon. If you didn't mean what you said, why did you say it? But, yes, at your request, I will pray over what you consider my slander of you, and be very cautious to specify in future that I am speaking to the words spoken, not the person, for I truly have no wish to offend, merely dialogue with zest.

As to a line by line exposition on your post, with the appropriate quotes, it will have to wait until I've had some sleep, since I've been up 6 hours past my bedtime trying to get to all of the site.

Blessings,

Jay,

My 'diatribe' was not about you or your relationship with God

UniqueWebRev, the reason I felt you were responding to me personally is because you kept using the word 'You'.

Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ. In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.

I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.

You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.

I hope you can understand how I thought you were referring to me.

I wonder what it is that I accidentally said that struck home to cause such a violent reaction.

Brother I hope that my reaction was not violent. I will reread my statements and pray over them, but I tried to express myself in love.

1. Who is birthed in us?

2. Who's mind do we now have?

3. How are we to renew our mind?

My answers, what are yours?

Answer: ?1. 1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

A. Who is the Word of God?

Answer; a. John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Answer: ?2. 1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cr 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

A. what is our responsibility?

Answer; a. To give our mind to Christ, or we have a mindless Christ born again in us.

Answer: ?3. Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

A. Who does the presenting? We do.
Who's body, soul, and Spirit do we present?
Ours.
Our body, Our Mind, being renewed to His
Spirit birthed in us.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

When we believe That Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We are born again. The Spirit of Christ is now our spirit. The Mind of Christ is now our mind and being renewed in the flesh to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit. The Body of Christ will be ours on resurrection morning, it is now quickened to contain all that God has given us in salvation.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

All I can do is praise God, He has birthed His Son in me and my life is now Christ. My responsibility is to present my whole being, even by the mercies of God as a living sacrifice unto Him which is now my reasonable service.

In the service of God by His mercies in me. That is the Hope of Glory, "Christ in you".

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Is this what we preach?

In Christ and Christ in us.

In Christ: Phillip

JaySaved wrote:

Jay,

My 'diatribe' was not about you or your relationship with God

UniqueWebRev, the reason I felt you were responding to me personally is because you kept using the word 'You'.

Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ. In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.

I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.

You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.

I hope you can understand how I thought you were referring to me.

I wonder what it is that I accidentally said that struck home to cause such a violent reaction.

Brother I hope that my reaction was not violent. I will reread my statements and pray over them, but I tried to express myself in love.

Bro,

I know nothing of you, not even your name, and only your state, Tennessee, for you speak in anonyminity. But you just used the word 'you' in speaking to me. I don't mind, nor do I ever want take a debating point as an attack, simply because someone says 'you'.

In responding in a conversation, how can I not use the word 'you' when referring to what you have said?

Is what is attributed to Jaysaved not said by that person? Must I speak in the third person when I am speaking to what you, Jaysaved, have said? If so, it will make responding difficult indeed.

Or do you feel that a quote must be rendered for every statement you make? If so, we are all going to be very longwinded, and it will take ages to respond to anyone to debate a statement with a text, and then a text for a text, adinfinitum. And even that will not really work.

For even the texts you use to support what you say is a part of what you are saying. You are writing your thoughts and opinions in debating viewpoints. When text is quoted, it is part of an argument, and used as support for the points being debated. How then can I not respond to you, even as you have responded to me?

Please, tell me how you wish to be responded to, and I will try to comply to the best of my ability.

Prayerfully,

JaySaved wrote:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14315&forum=36#110732]Earlier post on Free Will[/url]

It is God who changes our desires and understanding of who He really is. He does not change our Will but instead changes what it is bound to. This is why people 'choose' Christ. They now desire Christ and have a greater understanding of who he is. They see him differently and gladly run to Him. It is God doing this, through Grace.

It is faulty logic to assume that since God chooses, free will cannot exist.

If God must change our desires for us to choose Jesus, then where is our free-will?

I did not have a 'desire' to ask Christ into my life. I chose Jesus for my Lord and Savior, just in the same manner I would choose to jump off a cliff, (and frankly, it felt the same to me) because I had long believed that God was. I had long understood what God was offering me, and what I would have to give in return. You called it 'works' in another post on this thread.

[color=CC3300]KJV Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.[/color]

Lucifer and his demons believe in Jesus. They don't choose to serve Him.

Sorry, but if God does more than teach and persuade, cajol, and woo, it is not my free will choice at all, but His desire, His will, and I become nothing but a puppet.

Our relationship with Jesus is a love affair. God already owns us. He can do what He likes with us. But He cannot gain our willing trust and love by force, and He wants exactly that, and the works of obedience that prove it. He want's true intimacy with us, not mere acquiescence.

Blessings,

I read a liitle on this thread and wanted to see what was thought of this,

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

If his name is blotted out, it had to be there in the first place right? You can't blot out something that wasn't there?

UniqueWebRev, you said and I quote:

Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ. In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.

I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.

God chose me too, But I chose Him in return. I am obsessed with Him as I ever was with my first love at 13. I love Him more and more each day, and try to show it.

You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.

I replied as follows:

UniqueWebRev I encourage you to pray over these words you have written. You are making an assumption about another Christian. You know very little about my relationship with Christ. You are accusing me of ‘token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, and worship without value.’
Pray over those words you spoke and may God forgive you of your slander. I love God and desire to honor him every day. God knows that and my conscience is clear.

You replied as follows:

My 'diatribe' was not about you or your relationship with God, but what you said was your means of salvation, and consequent always perfect state of salvation, for if once saved, then always saved. Or isn't that what you meant?

and

My apologies for not knowing you, but only what you said, for it is what I based what I said upon. If you didn't mean what you said, why did you say it? But, yes, at your request, I will pray over what you consider my slander of you, and be very cautious to specify in future that I am speaking to the words spoken, not the person, for I truly have no wish to offend, merely dialogue with zest.

I replied as follows:

UniqueWebRev, the reason I felt you were responding to me personally is because you kept using the word 'You'.

To which you replied:

In responding in a conversation, how can I not use the word 'you' when referring to what you have said?

Is what is attributed to Jaysaved not said by that person? Must I speak in the third person when I am speaking to what you, Jaysaved, have said? If so, it will make responding difficult indeed.

Forgive me for being confused here. You responded to one of my posts with phrases such as:

I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough

You don't speak of love you speak of entitlement

He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value.

I called to your attention that such statements amount to slander because you do not know my relationship with God.

You then told me that your 'diatribe' was not about me or my relationship with God but was nothing more than an attack upon my beliefs of salvation, but then said that what you wrote was attributed to me.

Is what is attributed to Jaysaved not said by that person?

Please brother clear up this confusion about your statements. God Bless.

JaySaved wrote:

It is God who changes our desires and understanding of who He really is. He does not change our Will but instead changes what it is bound to. This is why people 'choose' Christ. They now desire Christ and have a greater understanding of who he is. They see him differently and gladly run to Him. It is God doing this, through Grace.

It is faulty logic to assume that since God chooses, free will cannot exist.

UniqueWebRev wrote:

If God must change our desires for us to choose Jesus, then where is our free-will?

I did not have a 'desire' to ask Christ into my life. I chose Jesus for my Lord and Savior, just in the same manner I would choose to jump off a cliff, (and frankly, it felt the same to me) because I had long believed that God was. I had long understood what God was offering me, and what I would have to give in return. You called it 'works' in another post on this thread.

KJV Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Lucifer and his demons believe in Jesus. They don't choose to serve Him.

Sorry, but if God does more than teach and persuade, cajol, and woo, it is not my free will choice at all, but His desire, His will, and I become nothing but a puppet.

Our relationship with Jesus is a love affair. God already owns us. He can do what He likes with us. But He cannot gain our willing trust and love by force, and He wants exactly that, and the works of obedience that prove it. He want's true intimacy with us, not mere acquiescence.

I would love for us to continue this discussion on another thread entitled [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=15236&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Man's Will[/url]

God Bless.

[color=3300FF]JaySaved, I will need to answer your quotes and explain my own in more detail, so I will do so in a diffeent color in order to distinguish this post from the previous ones.

I want to very careful to take enough time and words to explain myself in full, which I obviously did not in my original posts. I was not attempting to explain my statements, as I thought they were sufficiently clear on their own. Consquently, this post may be rather long, due to the two previous sets of posts.[/color]

JaySaved wrote:
UniqueWebRev, you said and I quote:

Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ.

[color=3300FF]I think that Predestination, or Sovereign Grace, is all too convenient for those that believe in it. Each such person is chosen by a benevolent God who saves you, without your consent, or belief. As a God who does not change, and is not a man to lie, He cannot un-save you, regardless of what you do.

You need do nothing to please Him, no trust or belief is required of you. You need do nothing at all, simply bask in your God given perfection, for having been saved, you have been justified, and are therefore perfect.[/color]

In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.

[color=3300FF]Precisely my point. You are saved without your will, you will remain saved no matter what you do. You can commit every sin that exists, and still remain in perfect amity with God. He doesn't want a relationship with you, as He says He does with others. He want's brainwashed humans that will never disappoint Him, never hurt Him, because they have no ability to do so.

If you believe in Sovereign Grace, you believe in Jesus, of course. You did not need to decide whether to do so. 'Belief' was given you along with your salvation. You 'love' God as well. The love was implanted at the time of your salvation, along with your belief. But if so, then those who believe in Sovereign Grace are a pre-programmed holographs, with as much substance as a computer program on a screen.

I am not saying any of this of you, JaySaved, unless you believe in Predestination. If what I am saying about believers in Sovereign Grace is not true of you, and your relationship with God, then you cannot believe in Predestination,
because those that believe in Sovereign Grace have admitted to never having had a choice.
[/color]

I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.

[color=3300FF]Again, if there is no choice, there is no consciousness of sin to be saved from. Your conscience must be seared to live within this robotic religious belief system.

If you are conscious of a sin nature, then you cannot admit to Sovereign Grace, for if Sovereign Grace exists, and you are one of the 'chosen', you are permanently perfected, or if not perfected, unconscious of any outstanding sin that would seperate you from God. Remember, a believer in Sovereign Grace must be one of the elect, and exempt from the New Covenant.

For the New Covenant is a conditional agreement. Jesus dies for my sins as my Kinsman Redeemer. If I believe upon His name, His holy origin, His sacrificial death, Divine resurrection; hear His knock upon my door, requesting admittance; if I, after due consideration, open the door, and invite Him in to sup with me, and I with Him, then He has become my Betrothed.

I speak with Him daily, and hear Him in return. I seek Him all hours of the day, and am distressed when I can not find Him. But He, as in the Song of Solomon, can always find me, awake, asleep, weeping because I have lost Him and cannot find Him.

I seek always to find some way to please Him. I study His life, I sing of Him, and His greatness.
The longer I know Him, the more I know of Him, and the more I love Him. If you, my brother, do the same, then you cannot believe in Predestination, with no free choice, and no real love.[/color]

God chose me too, But I chose Him in return. I am obsessed with Him as I ever was with my first love at 13. I love Him more and more each day, and try to show it.

[color=3300FF]Nothing has changed here, though I could write reams about my love for Him, and my pitious inability to refrain from my humanity.
[/color]

You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.

[color=3300FF]If you believe in Sovereign Grace, then the above is true of you. If it is not true, then you do not believe in Sovereign Grace.
[/color]

I replied as follows:
UniqueWebRev I encourage you to pray over these words you have written. You are making an assumption about another Christian. You know very little about my relationship with Christ. You are accusing me of ‘token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, and worship without value.’

[color=3300FF]Quite true, and it remains a fact if you are among those that believe they have been Predestined to be among the 'Saved' believers of Jesus Christ. For if you are saved by Sovereign Grace, then no choice is needed, no love is needed, no forgiveness is needed, no praise is needed. You may feel these things, but if you were ordained by God to be saved, then so too were you ordained to love, and worship God's Son.[/color]

Pray over those words you spoke and may God forgive you of your slander.

[color=3300FF]Slander is a false report maliciously uttered and tending to injure the reputation of a person. 1971 The New Merriam-Webster Pocket Dictionary.

My dear JaySaved, I have not slandered you. There was no malice in my heart when I wrote those words that struck you as being defamatory. I know absolutely nothing of you, except that your nickname on this site is JaySaved, and you are from Tennessee.

How can I say anything about you that can damage your reputation? You speak from anonymity, and remain in it. Nor have I said anything false about you, that I know of. Only you know about you. If in terms, and in speaking in debate I did not explain as extensively as I have here, I still said nothing that could be taking as defamatory towards you.

You took a specific position in regards to God. I took another. And as I have explained here in depth, what I said is completely true if, and only if, you believe you are saved by Predestination. There is no slander, no libel, no defamation of any kind. If you are saved by Sovereign Grace, then what I have said is true, and if not, not. But in either case, since no malice was meant, slander cannot hold to this, or any previous discussion.[/color]

I love God and desire to honor him every day. God knows that and my conscience is clear.

[color=3300FF]I believe you, JaySaved. I merely do not believe in any faith that has no choice. Yes, I know what the scriptures say. But we are talking about a God who knows everything about everyone from before the beginning of the world. And He knows who would take part in the New Covenant before the world was formed, and Adam sinned.[/color]

[color=CC6600]KJV Romans 8:29-30 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/color]

[color=3300FF]This is just a fancy way of saying exactly what I said. God foreknew those He chose to be saved, and He made them to be like unto His son. But these people have had no choice, and I believe are to be pitied. I prefer my very faulty love for my Saviour because it is something I can give Him that He can get from no other.

He made me unique. I am without equal in the universe, however poor a thing that might be. But my love and devotion, my praise and faith, however faulty, is Glorified in my Saviour, for He loved me enough to die for me. Those Predestined need no kinsman redeemer. They are saved already.[/color]

You replied as follows:

My 'diatribe' was not about you or your relationship with God, but what you said was your means of salvation, and consequent always perfect state of salvation, for if once saved, then always saved. Or isn't that what you meant?

[color=3300FF]I meant every word of it, and have explained it in full above.[/color]

and

My apologies for not knowing you, but only what you said, for it is what I based what I said upon. If you didn't mean what you said, why did you say it?

[color=3300FF]Jaysaved, if you didn't mean it, why did you say it? My apologies stand, for I cannot know you, except by what you write, for it is the only thing I can know of you.[/color]

But, yes, at your request, I will pray over what you consider my slander of you, and be very cautious to specify in future that I am speaking to the words spoken, not the person, for I truly have no wish to offend, merely dialogue with zest.

[color=3300FF]I have prayed, and received only the knowledge that I must explain more fully, not expecting anyone to catch my meaning even though I have been taught, and recently reminded, to write as pithily as possible.[/color]

I replied as follows:

UniqueWebRev, the reason I felt you were responding to me personally is because you kept using the word 'You'.

To which you replied:
In responding in a conversation, how can I not use the word 'you' when referring to what you have said?

Is what is attributed to Jaysaved not said by that person? Must I speak in the third person when I am speaking to what you, Jaysaved, have said? If so, it will make responding difficult indeed.

[color=3300FF]This still stands. I speak of you as you, and you speak of me as you. I see no other way. If you do, please tell me how to do it.[/color]

Forgive me for being confused here. You responded to one of my posts with phrases such as:
I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.
You don't speak of love you speak of entitlement.
He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value.

[color=3300FF]Please re-read the above. I have already covered it in depth.[/color]

I called to your attention that such statements amount to slander because you do not know my relationship with God.

You then told me that your 'diatribe' was not about me or my relationship with God but was nothing more than an attack upon my beliefs of salvation, but then said that what you wrote was attributed to me.

[color=3300FF]The issue of slander is covered above. What I wrote originally, whether a diatribe or not,(your word, not mine) was not about you or your personal relationship with God, but what you said was your relationship with God. I responded to what you said. I cannot know your heart.[/color]

Is what is attributed to Jaysaved not said by that person?

[color=3300FF]I don't know whose quote this is, yours, or mine, but I will answer it anyway. What a person says in debate, and what he keeps privately to himself are two different things, at least generally speaking. If you give no information about yourself so that you can speak without caution as to what you say, so that you can speak freely about your relationship with God, we need to know that. If what you say is equivalent to hearing your prayers, then we need to be aware, and simply say, well said, as usual.

But then we cannot take you seriously in theological debate.[/color]

Please brother clear up this confusion about your statements. God Bless.

[color=3300FF]My dear Brother, I hope that this has answered all your questions about what I said in several posts on this subject. I cannot believe in Predestination for myself, for I am far too imperfect. I cannot and will not believe in Sovereign Grace where I have no choice, or the New Covenant is no covenant at all.

I will only give my love, little as it is. If it is implanted in me, then I am as the angels, perfect, devoted, but without human passion. Jesus was human as well as Divine. When I meet Him face to face, we will have similar glorified bodies, and similar experiences (in general). And we will love each other beause we wanted to.

I pray that this explains all that troubled and offended you in full.

With many blessings, [/color]

Brother, do you really want to be sure whether you can or can't lose salvation? Read everything (in the bible) that concerns salvation. I believe we can lose salvation. I wasn't sure before, so I investigated. So my advice is investigate for yourself:

[b][color=CC0000]THIS IS LIFE AND DEATH[/color][/b]
[b]THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT
SO INVESTIGATE![/b] I advise you to start by these sites below:

[i]Is OSAS an indispensible part of the gospel and what the Bible teaches, or is this the same lie that the old serpent, Satan, has used since he deceived Eve in the Garden when he assured her, “Ye shall not surely die”?"[/i]

(This is a quote from this site below)
[b]http://home.earthlink.net/~buhay3/id8.html[/b]

http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/index.html (this site has Q & A about OSAS)

Godbless you, and may he open your eyes to the truth.

- João Tiago

UniqueWebRev wrote:

I think that Predestination, or Sovereign Grace, is all too convenient for those that believe in it. Each such person is chosen by a benevolent God who saves you, without your consent, or belief.

You need do nothing to please Him, no trust or belief is required of you. You need do nothing at all, simply bask in your God given perfection, for having been saved, you have been justified, and are therefore perfect.

UniqueWebRev, I say this with all due respect, but you do not know much about Reformed Theology. I say that in respect knowing that words on a screen can appear more sinister then they are meant so please know brother that I love and respect you, but I must reiterate that you do not know much about Reformed Theology.

Your view of Reformed Theology is Hyper-Calvinism. This is an unbiblical view of the Sovereignty of God that removes responsibility from humans. I have noticed that many people who question Calvinism usually attack Hyper-Calvinism instead because it is an easier target. I myself attack Hyper-Calvinism because it is not biblical. I agree with you that any doctrine that affirms the following is unbiblical:
1) Requires no faith from man
2) Requires no obedience from man
3) Requires no trust from man
4) Requires nothing at all from man
5) States that the elect are perfect.

You my friend have set up a 'straw man' argument. Honestly, I don't believe you have taken into account the words I have spoken but you have simply attacked what you 'think' I believe.

Here is what I affirm and I pray that we will concentrate our discussion to these
points:
1) God is sovereign in salvation.
John 6:37, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
John 17:1-3, "When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."
Romans 8:29-30, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Ephesians 1:11, "In [Christ] we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
John 15:16, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

2) Man is held responsible for all his actions
John 6:28-29, Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.""
Luke 13:3, "...I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
Acts 3:19-20, "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,"
Acts 17:29-31, Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

I affirm that God is sovereign in salvation, completely good, just and right, and that man is held responsible for his actions. I affirm all of this because it is stated in scripture.

JaySaved wrote:
Romans 8:29-30
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also
called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Man’s Will is that by which man actively chooses. It is the innate ability through which, if unhindered, allows man to choose the most desirous option. It is my desire to prove that man will never choose anything against his Will and that God chooses men to salvation harmoniously with man’s Will, not in violation of man’s Will.

With regard to man’s Will, man has the freedom to choose, but is always in bondage to his desires. Thus man’s Will is free, yet bound.

I now want to prove that God does not violate man’s Will when He sovereignty chooses men to become Christians—for this is a common objection to Reformed Theology in that many
say it makes men to be nothing more than robots. When God calls a sinner to repentance, He does not violate that sinners Will. What God does is that He reveals truth to the sinner. It can be said that God “removes the spiritual blinders from the sinners eyes.” By God revealing himself to the sinner, the sinner sees God for who He truly is—Holy, sees himself who he truly is—sinful, and sees his
sinfulness for what it truly is—deserving of punishment. It is at this moment that the sinner responds to the Call of God. This response is done according to his Will and not is violation of his Will. Even though the sinner is choosing something that he would not have before, the Will is not violated because the man’s desires have changed—desires being that which the Will is bound. The
Will still chooses that which is most desirous, in this case it is the most desirous option to respond to God’s Call. Ephesians 2:1 says, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses
and sins;”

I hope, in a spirit of love and respect, that I have proven that man will never choose anything against his Will and that God chooses men to salvation harmoniously with man’s Will,
not in violation of man’s Will.

[color=336699]JaySaved, I believe that what you have been taught by your denomination, whatever it is, is false, and derived from mistaken ideas of will, desire,foreknowledge, and Calvin's education by the Roman Catholic Church, which puts itself above the Bible.

Part of what you have spoken above sounds just like the teaching, and persuading that most people experience when listening to the Word, or studying it prior to coming to faith in Christ, and choosing to ask the Lord to be their
Savior and Redeemer.

But then you go back into some folderol about man being bound from being making their own choices because their desires are carnal,and override their will.

Please hear me out before you get your feather's ruffled, for I believe, that despite your statements of what you have been taught, you walk a far different, far more blessed walk than you speak of in your official beliefs. If you are teaching what you have been taught other than on this site, where we debate theology, I would be very worried about you. I'm worried about you anyway, because many quotes you
have given me have been quoted out of context.

But first Let us consider the definitions of the crucial words, Will, Desire, and Foreknowledge
[/color]

[color=336699]Topics: Will

Text: The Scriptures manifest greater interest in the will of God than in the will of man. The latter is not treated in analytic fashion any more than heart or other psychological terms. Yet the material warrants consideration. The notion of inclination is expressed in the OT by aba, nearly always in negative form, whereas the other leading words for will, rason and hapes, emphasize the element of good pleasure. In
the NT the chief verbs are thelo and boulomai, which mean to wish or to will according to the demands of the context. The noun thelema is used mainly of God.

Decision or plan is the force of the rarely used boule (Luke 24:51; Acts 5:38). To will in the sense of coming to a decision is sometimes expressed by krino (I Cor. 5:3). Among the more striking passages in which thelema is used of man are Eph. 2:3; where the word has the force of desire, and II Pet. 1:21, where it denotes an act of the will.

Of supreme import is Luke 22:42, the Gethsemane declaration of Jesus' submission to the will of the Father. Here is the pattern for the capitulation of the will of the believer to God. But this does not mean the adoption of an attitude of passivity such as may be suggested by the motto: "Let go ... let God." It means rather the determination that the individual shall actively cooperate with the revealed purpose of God for him. The power of the flesh is so great that even in the Christian the will to do the will of God may be largely immobilized (Rom. 7:15ff.). The aid of the Holy Spirit is
needed (Rom. 8:4). Continued dependence on the Spirit results in the strengthening of the will so that the meeting of the divine requirement becomes more constant.

The present trend in psychology is away from the notion of will as a faculty and toward the viewpoint that it is an expression of the total self or personality. Normal life includes the capacity for making decisions, and one is responsible for his choices. That choice which makes all others the more meaningful is commitment to Christ.

E. F. HARRISON

Topics: Desire

Text: A term used to describe the self in its longing to possess and enjoy some valued object or to fulfill some need or prized goal. God has created the human brain with specialized neural systems and pleasure/pain centers that govern desires, including the common drives such as hunger, thirst, rest, and sex. Desiring is so essential to human experience that some have described the self as being simply the aggregate of its desires. To lack basic desires, as illustrated by anorexia nervosa (a lack of the desire to eat) or inhibited sexual desire (ISD), is currently considered a mental illness that may be ruinous to the human personality.

The most common word for desire in the NT is epithymia, derived from thyo, meaning "to well up" or "boil." When the term is used in a morally negative sense, it is often translated as "lust" or "covetousness." In later Greek philosophy, epithymia signified the failure of human striving as it was either inferior to reason, directed toward evil objects, associated with pleasure, or it violated the golden mean of moderation. Some church fathers, most notably Augustine, were greatly influenced by this view. Augustine lashed out against the "disease of desire" as the "eager concupiscence which is always seeking pleasure," and even identified it with original sin.

In the NT the Greek view of associating desire with evil is tempered by Hebrew anthropology. The Hebrew term nepes represents the total human self, but it spotlights the self in its unique
longings for certain biological, psychic, social and spiritual goods (Prov. 27:7; Song of S. 1:7; Isa. 26:8-9). Moreover, these desires themselves are good when they emanate from righteous people (Prov. 10:24; 11:23). Those who delight in the Lord and are concerned, for instance, to satisfy the desires of the hungry, will themselves be granted their hearts' desires (Ps. 21:2; 37:4; Isa. 58:11). However, in the story of the fall, these same desires, when quickened by the serpent's lure, selfishly attracted Adam and Eve to the forbidden tree's delightful food and its anticipated divine wisdom (Gen. 3:6). Humans are
continually enticed to reject God, forget others, and selfishly indulge their desires (Deut. 31:20; Exod. 20:17; Ps. 112:10).

The NT writers continue the Hebrew tradition that human desires are normal dimensions of the created self (Matt. 13:17; Luke 16:21; Phil. 1:22-23). Jesus not only spoke favorably of human
longings, but he felt them himself (Luke 17:22; 22:15). However, both Jesus and Paul affirmed that desires are the primary medium of sin in the fallen world as the forces of Satan battle the will of God (Mark 4:19; John 8:44; Eph. 2:3; Titus 2:12). Paul develops this idea in the context of both Christology and eschatology. The Christian lives simultaneously in this age, which is characterized by the evil powers that
prey upon the weakness of the flesh, and in the juxtaposed age to come, represented by the reign of Christ (Rom. 8:12-27). The cosmic powers of this age, however, have invaded the self through its desires, whether they be sensual, moral, or religious desires, and have shaped them toward passionate but malicious self-seeking (Rom. 1:24ff.; Eph. 2:2-3; I Thess. 4:4-6). Thus, Paul rejected the notion that the desires nourish evil primarily because of their inferiority to reason, or their association with pleasure, or their evil objects, or their excessiveness. Rather, as a part of God's creation they are good, but they become evil when directed away from others to pure self-interest. These desires "of the flesh" are referred to as "deceitful" (Eph. 4:22), "evil" (Col. 3:5), "hurtful" (I Tim. 6:9), "worldly" (Titus 2:12), "youthful" (II Tim. 2:22), and "sinful" (Rom. 13:14).

In redemption Christ's spirit confronts the demonic powers in the arena of the desiring self (Rom. 7:7-8; Eph. 4:22-24; see also James 1:14-15; II Pet. 2:18; I John 2:15). The desires of the spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.) battle those of the flesh (fornication, idolatry, envy, party intrigues, etc.) and the battle itself points to Christ's victory won by his death and resurrection (Gal. 5:16-25). Thus, through the grace of God in Christ, the Christian is freed from surrendering to the fallen selfish desires. God takes possession of the person by seizing the desiring self and reshaping those desires into love for the neighbor (Gal.5:13-15). Thus, every impulse to love, whether strong or weak, is a preamble to the unveiling of Christ's supreme rule in the world. D. J. MILLER

Bibliography. F. Buchsel, TDNT, III, 167-72; R. Gundry, "The Moral Frustration of Paul Before His Conversion: Sexual Lust in Romans 7:7-25," in Pauline Studies, ed. D. Hagner and M.
Harris; E. Kasemann, Perspectives on Paul. [/color]

[color=336699]Topics:Foreknow
Examining the word in the original text, the word foreknow is as follows:

Strong's Ref. # 4267

Romanized proginosko
Pronounced prog-in-oce'-ko

from GSN4253 and GSN1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:

KJV--foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Strong's Ref. # 7225 (ordain)

Romanized re'shiyth
Pronounced ray-sheeth'

from the same as HSN7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically, a firstfruit):

Topics: Foreknowledge

Text: Scripture uses the term "foreknow" for God's prescience or foresight concerning future events. Foreknowledge is thus an aspect of God's omniscience. All things, past, present, and future, external and internal, material, intellectual, and spiritual, are open to God. The Lord knows all things (1 Sam. 2:3) or everything (1 John 3:20). All creatures are open to his eyes (Heb. 4:13). Israel is not hid from him (Hos. 5:3). He knows every secret sin (Ps. 90:8). His knowledge is too wonderful for us, encompassing words and thoughts and our total being (Ps. 139). He knows all the ways of all his creatures; not a sparrow falls to the ground without him (Matt. 10:29). He notes our tossings (Ps. 56:8). He knows the way of the righteous (Ps. 1:6) and is not ignorant, uncaring, or impotent when the wicked afflict his people (Ps. 94:5ff.). His knowledge is complete, allowing for no confusion, obscurity, deficiency, or error. It is like the full light of day: God is light and in him is no darkness (1 John 1:5).

Omniscience naturally includes prescience. God does not just know what is happening or has already happened. He knows what is still to happen. This comes out most plainly in
Isa. 40ff. God boldly announces the fall of Babylon and the liberation of his people. He challenges all comers to show comparable knowledge: "Tell us what is to come hereafter" (41:23); "New things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them" (42:9). Nor is God's foreknowledge displayed only here; it underlies the element of foretelling in all prophecy. Micaiah tells Ahab his end (1 Kings 22:13-24). Elisha announces the relief of Samaria (II Kings 7). Jeremiah and Ezekiel declare the ineluctability of the fall of Jerusalem. Daniel offers visions of complex future events (11:2ff.). Details about the coming
Messiah include his Davidic descent (Isa. 11:1), his birth at Bethlehem (Mic. 5:2), his death with the wicked and burial among the rich (Isa. 53:9). It is true that full knowledge of past and present, too, belongs to God alone, but perfect knowledge of the future is a particular mark of deity which arrogant humanity, having no claim to such knowledge consistently denies or disparages, e.g., in its handling of the
predictive element in Scripture.

Foreknowledge stands in obvious relation to the divine eternity. God is the "high and lofty One who inhabits eternity" (Isa. 57:15). "A thousand years in his sight are but as yesterday when it is past" (Ps. 90:4,cf. II Pet. 3:8). Past, present, and future are all present to God. He sees the end from the beginning and the beginning at the end. Being part of creation, time does not limit or condition God. As Lord of
time he does not live or act in abstraction from it. He eternally "comprehends" it, being before, with, and after it. Having total knowledge of all that has been and is. he also has total knowledge of all that will be.

God's foreknowledge stands related to his will and power. What he knows, he does not know merely as information. He is no mere spectator. What he foreknows he ordains. He wills it. In his challenge to the gods in Isa. 40ff. he can "declare the end from the beginning,... things not yet done," because "my counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose" (46:10). Nor does he know merely because he
wills. He knows because, willing, he has the power to do his will. "I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass" (46:11); "I work and who can hinder it?" (43:13).

By reason of the totality of will and power in God's prescience, the "pre" in the word has more than temporal meaning. With his prior knowledge of things God is the presupposition of their being. As Augustine says, we know things because they are, but things are because God knows them. All that exists does so first and eternally in God's knowledge. We must not press this to the point of saying that his foreknowledge is the cause of all things. God knows what is possible as well as actual, but did not cause it. He also knows the devil and sin, but plainly is not their cause. Furthermore, he knows the contingent
decisions of human wills but causes them only insofar as they have their origin in him. Prescience is the presupposition of all things as the prescience of the God of will and power.

In regard to the decisions of human wills, a collision seems to arise between divine foreknowledge and human freedom. God plainly foreknows and foreordains everything. Nothing outside him restricts or conditions his own freedom. He is always free to be himself and to will and act as such. This rules out pantheism, dualism, and every form of Pelagianism. Nevertheless, Scripture no less plainly teaches human responsibility in moral decision (cf. Acts 4:27-28; Eph. 1:11; Rom. 8:29-30 for divine sovereignty; Deut. 30:19; 1 Kings 18:21 for human responsibility). Divine foreknowledge must not be confused with determinism or fatalism, difficult though the reconciling of prescience and human choice might be.

The task of putting the two biblical truths together has led on the one hand to some valid and important distinctions. Thus God's necessary knowledge of himself is distinguished from his free knowledge of creatures. His speculative or contemplative knowledge is distinguished from his practical or active knowledge. His knowledge of possibility is distinguished from his knowledge of actuality. His approving
knowledge of good is distinguished from his disapproving knowledge of evil (cf. the "I never knew you" of Matt. 7:23). All things are not known to God in the same way.

Some more dubious differentiations have arisen on the other hand. Thus Molina postulated a "middle" knowledge between God's necessary and free knowledge, i.e., a knowledge of what is only
conditionally future, of what might have happened, or might happen, given certain contingencies, decisions, or circumstances (cf. 1 Sam. 23:11-12; Matt. 11:21-22). Arminius, with a special focus on predestination, separated God's foreknowledge from his foreordination. God foreordains the salvation of all those who, freed by his Spirit, trust in Christ, and he foreknows who will make this decision
and stick to it. On this view neither foreordination nor foreknowledge affects the individual decision but at the cost of breaking the chain of Rom. 8:29-30, robbing foreordination of its point, and separating the knowledge of God from his will and power.

Perhaps a more fruitful approach is from the recognition that, whether in providence or predestination, divine prescience means that God is in fact the presupposition of all things, including our wills, choices, and decisions. Nothing we do can inform or surprise him or impose conditions on him. He knows us omnipotently as our Creator and Lord. Yet he does not destroy us with this knowledge, but with
it originates and guarantees our authentic freedom. Only as sinners opposing God's will do we experience his foreknowledge as burden and bondage. True freedom, however, does not imply the possibility of defying God but of serving him. We are foreknown and foreordained in the real self-determination which sees no problem in its being self-determination in and under the divine prescience. G. W.
BROMILEY

Bibliography. K. Barth, Church Dogmatics II/1, 552ff., 558ff.; R. Bultmann, TDNT, I, 689ff., 515-16.[/color]

[color=336699]JaySaved, your vision of Desire as being overwhelming, and unable to be overcome by the human Will when it comes to choosing Christ, and requiring that the Will be bolstered by God to ensure salvation gives our common sense too little credit. Faith, which cometh by hearing the word of God, along with the Holy Spirit through the teaching of the Word of God, persuading us that Life and Death with Jesus is
better than Life and Death without Him, is sufficient to lead mankind to Jesus. We are not so overwhelmed by the lusts of the flesh that we cannot make a reasoned decision. Indeed, those Christians that answer an altar call, and stay saved, because their response was not an emotional one, but a reasoned decision of the will, would be highly entertained at the notion that they could not overcome their dastardly human nature long enough to make a decision for or against Christ.
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JaySaved wrote:
UniqueWebRev wrote:

I think that Predestination, or Sovereign Grace, is all too convenient for those that believe in it. Each such person is chosen by a benevolent God who saves you, without your consent, or belief.

You need do nothing to please Him, no trust or belief is required of you. You need do nothing at all, simply bask in your God given perfection, for having been saved, you have been justified, and are therefore perfect.

UniqueWebRev, I say this with all due respect, but you do not know much about Reformed Theology. I say that in respect knowing that words on a screen can appear more sinister then they are meant so please know brother that I love and respect you, but I must reiterate that you do not know much about Reformed Theology.

Your view of Reformed Theology is Hyper-Calvinism. This is an unbiblical view of the Sovereignty of God that removes responsibility from humans. I have noticed that many people who
question Calvinism usually attack Hyper-Calvinism instead because it is an easier target. I myself attack Hyper-Calvinism because it is not biblical. I agree with you that any doctrine that affirms the following
is unbiblical:

1) Requires no faith from man
2) Requires no obedience from man
3) Requires no trust from man
4) Requires nothing at all from man
5) States that the elect are perfect.

You, my friend, have set up a 'straw man' argument. Honestly, I don't believe you have taken into account the words I have spoken but you have simply attacked what you 'think' I believe.

[color=336699]JaySaved, I know nothing of Reformed Theology, or Hyper-Calvinism, and know no more about Calvinism or Arminianism than is discussed in general terms in Wikipedia. What I know of Calvinism is taught, very briefly, in the Calvinist mnemnomic, TULIP.

I was not brought up in any church, and only joined one long enough to be baptized, then got out for reasons I will not discuss here. I know a fair amount of the History of the Apostolic Church, the Catholic Church, of the Reformation movement begun by Luther in Germany, but have read far more of the Reformation movement in England, as I infinitely prefer books I can read to those I can't. And although of German heritage, I am an admitted anglophile.

I set up no straw man. I disputed directly from what you said in previous posts from my heart, and what knowledge I have. I have studied the Word for 37 years, the last 7 1/2 years in intensive, daily seeking of God's truth. But I have not studied from any denominational view. I call myself a Messianic Gentile, because if the Apostles didn't write it down well enough to be understood, then the whole New Testament is in
trouble.

Anything written after John died, and presumably the generation taught by the Apostles and Disciples is tainted by speculation and misinterpretation, as well as the Governmental use of Roman Catholism to incorporate pagan beliefs. In addition, what was written by Roman Catholic Scholars is highly suspect, and Calvin got his education from the Roman Catholic Church.

You would not believe me when I said I spoke to your words, not to your theology, or your relationship with God. You are judging what I am saying from a denominational viewpoint. I have no denomination. I follow nothing but what is said in the Bible, and even in the Bible, I tend to put Jesus' words above any of the Apostles explanation's of them. Never the less, I am very Paulinist in my views in regard to salvation through faith, and faith by the hearing of the Word of God. This is why, despite your continual quoting of Roman's, I cannot believe that what you quote means what you believe it does.

In fact, your new definitive statements above (1-5) actually contradicts what your official theology teaches. You are against Hyper-Calvinism, but I see no difference between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. To me, it's all TULIP.[/color]

[color=993300]KJV John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9. Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.[/color]

[color=336699]The only one thing Christ required of us for eternal salvation, is that we be saved through Him, with is by means of the New Covenant made in Him. That new Covenant is a bargain made in Jesus' blood. Jesus dies for our sins, and rises again to divinity. He asks us to believe on Him, and His resurrection to be saved.

The works that God does in Jesus, and will do in us, are works such as those done by Christ, and later by the Apostles and Disciples. They were not a separate work done, separate of Jesus, to choose a number of people that would be saved by God's grace, without Jesus Christ. Why else did the Lord go to so much trouble to establish the tradition of a Kinsman Redeemer, if God Himself would not need to make use of it. If God was going to break His own laws, and choose out some special ones for salvation, why did He not simply choose us all in this way?
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JaySaved said:
Here is what I affirm and I pray that we will concentrate our discussion to these points:

1) God is sovereign in salvation.
John 6:37, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

[color=336699]TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT[/color]

[color=993300]KJV John 6:33. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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[color=336699]TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT[/color]

[color=336699]This entire passage is about Jesus being the spiritual food for all who would claim it. The last portion of it relates to the benifits of claiming the spiritual bread that is Jesus.[/color]

Jaysaved said:
John 17:1-3, "When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

[color=336699]TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT[/color]

[color=993300]KJV John 17:1. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
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[color=336699]This is Jesus praying for the welfare of His disciples, and for those that would believe on Him through their testimony. Jesus asks that they be all one together, even as He is in God, and God is in Him.[/color]

JaySaved said
KJV Romans 8:29-30 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[color=336699]TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT[/color]

[color=336699]All of the above mentions not one instance of voluntary faith, obedience, trust, action, and does say that those called are perfected. God has done all. If so, what he has created is a toy.

Now, either the classic statement in Romans is true for all who come to Christ, and this is a description of what happens to each of us, not by force, by Predestination, but by foreknowlege, calling, persuading, until a decision is made, and we are indeed then justified and Glorified in Christ, or there are some robots running around.

Indeed, to me, Calvinism arose from the idea that God could not foreknow all that happened and was to happen, and say so, unless God were speaking of a unique bunch of the 'elect'. Calvin, after all, knew very little of the dimension of time, or other dimensions that are commonly taught in physics in college these day.

I don't think he had the ability to read those phrases, and understand how God sees time as a
whole when He wants to, and doesn't when He doesn't want to, and all the many ways God can look at and experience His creation, all at the same time.

I am quoting below the entire chapter of Romans 8, not a few lines taken out of context. All men would be in agreement on dividing the word of God if it were not for quotes, taken out of
context, and literal text interpreted symbolically, or symbolic text interpreted lieterally, because the reader is too afraid to say, 'I do not know. God will tell us when we need to know.' [/color]

[color=993300]KJV Romans 8:1-39. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.[/color]

[color=336699]To be carnally minded is death. This is not a once saved, always saved supporting text. Instead, Paul is saying that those who remain in a sinful life, will, like the Laodicean Church, be vomited out of Jesus' mouth. But according to the basics of Calvinism, once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation. We are back to robots, then.[/color]

[color=993300] 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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[color=336699]Do the predestinated live in hope? How can they...they are already glorified. As 'to them who are the called according to his purpose.' If we who are the called, who love God, are called according to His purpose, not purposes, there is only one means to salvation, even as Christ Himself said.[/color]

[color=336699]God can foreknow everything. He can predestine anything He chooses. But then the death of Jesus was a sham, a legal loophole, for if God forknew any, He foreknew all, and if He foreknew all, He predestined all who would be, and God again has plenty of perfect, glorified, pre-programmed toys, with no choice to love or submit. There is only force or persuasion, and I sincerely doubt God want's forced love and trust.
Yes, God can arbitrarily change our desires, but once He has done so, they are no longer ours, but His.[/color]

JaySaved said:
Ephesians 1:11, "In [Christ] we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

[color=336699]TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT[/color]

[color=993300]KJV Ephesians 1:1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;[/color]

[color=336699]If the New Covenant is kept through Jesus' Blood, then no one can be Predestined, elected by Sovereign Grace, else Jesus' Blood need not have been spilt at all.

But if everyone is predestined through Jesus, then the Kinsman Redeemer doctrine is a legal fiction, and we are all robots, believing that we actually had a choice. Would God deceive us so? Or does not Predestination simply describe what God already knows is the end result, and the 'final destiny' of us all.[/color]

[color=993300] 8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16. Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.[/color]

[color=336699]Again is spoken the hope of HIS calling. If we did not need to hope, or if some did not need to hope, why would Christ have come, died, and risen again?

In addition, if all or any are Predestined unto salvation, why are not they all walking in perfect grace, for Paul in Romans said they were already glorified.[/color]

JaySaved said:
John 15:16, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it
to you."

[color=336699]TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT[/color]

[color=993300]John 15:9. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of
the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17. These things I command you, that ye love one another.[/color]

[color=336699]These words were commandments by Jesus to His disciples on how they were to behave.[/color]

JaySaved said:
2) Man is held responsible for all his actions

[color=336699]I do not disagree, and I will refrain from examining the texts involved, that have shown above that you routinely take the Word out of context, as did the Catholic Church, Calvin, and many others from then till now.

Now you know why I work first from the Bible, and second from the teaching of mankind. Only working with the Holy Spirit, do I then read the Commentaries, Sermons, and Theological Works to challenge my understanding of the Word.

Generally there are two main differences I note. One is that much Word is taken out of context to prove a point. The other is that the Literal is often Allegorized, and vice versa, making little sense of the Word even after a careful reading.[/color]

JaySaved Said:
I affirm that God is sovereign in salvation, completely good, just and right, and that man is held responsible for his actions. I affirm all of this because it is stated in scripture.

[color=336699]I agree with you here, JaySaved, except in the notion that God is Sovereign in salvation. Certainly God knows who is going to be saved, but again, what is the point of a forced love? God has the ability to be sovereign in salvation, for He is God, and can do this, but why would He want to? He would always know that we were His toys, not His children.

I believe you have been incorrectly taught, and have not always been a good Berean in researching the texts you have been given, but if you were brought up from childhood in this faith, you would not be likely to question it.

Indeed, I do not think you question these things enough. But I believe that you love the Lord, and regardless of the limited teaching of your church, you have been well taught by the Holy
Spirit, and hence walk lovingly in obedience.

Now, you have explained to me your position, and I have explained mine to you. I only ask that you actually consider what I have said.

I know that from a denominational view, you believe that only you can be right. From a complete Biblical view only, I can't help but think some of what you have said is mistaken. I ask you to consider that the Bible supercedes your dominational views, and consult the Holy Spirit over what I have said. Remember I do not speak from an opposing viewpoint, or competing denomination. I have looked at your words, and answered them, not your denomination.

I have enjoyed our debate, but I think we have covered everything we can in this forum.

My only desire is that you read what I have written with an open mind, and pray for enlightenment. Your final opinion is between Him and you, not you and me.

Many blessings to you,
Forrest[/color]

[color=336699]Post Script - No need to answer in depth, as we have covered everything possible in depth, I think, but please let me know that you read the above. If I have made you reconsider a single point, or no point at all, let me know which, for I put in a lot of time to write everything as clearly as possible, and document it. Again, many blessings.[/color]

UniqueWebRev, I value your words and I respect you as a dear brother in Christ. I believe the following statement of yours sums up our differences very succinctly:

In fact, your new definitive statements above (1-5) actually contradicts what your official theology teaches. You are against Hyper-Calvinism, but I see no difference between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. To me, it's all TULIP.

What non-Reformed people don’t realize is that true Calvinism and non-Reformed have much in common and both stand in direct contrast to Hyper-Calvinism as follows:
- Both believe that man is held responsible for his actions.
- Both believe that God calls men to Himself through the gospel.
- Both believe that it is our responsibility to go into the world and preach the gospel.
- Both believe that God is good fair.
- Both believe that it is a Christian’s responsibility to seek after God
- Neither believe that man is perfected at justification, but still must be sanctified.

Where true Calvinism and non-Reformed depart is that the Calvinist accepts the verses that speak of God choosing men to be Saved without making them mean something else. UniqueWebrev, I respect you but I find it amusing that you told me that I was taking those verses on God’s sovereignty out of context.

JaySaved said:

Here is what I affirm and I pray that we will concentrate our discussion to these points:

1) God is sovereign in salvation.
John 6:37, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

You wrote

TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT

KJV John 6:33. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This entire passage is about Jesus being the spiritual food for all who would claim it. The last portion of it relates to the benifits of claiming the spiritual bread that is Jesus.

I agree that Jesus is referring to Himself as spiritual food. But look at verse 35, “he that cometh to me shall never hunger” and in verse 36 he says that they “have seen me, and believe not.” then in verse 37 he says “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me” The context is Jesus telling them that they do not believe because the Father has not enabled them to believe. Look at verse 39, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” The Father must enable the sinner to come to Christ, this is why Jesus can also so that “every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life”. Jesus knew that if someone did not believe it was because God had not enabled that person to believe, Jesus also knew that if someone did believe it is because the Father did enable the person to believe. This is the context of the verse and I stand by scripture.

Jaysaved said:

John 17:1-3, "When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

You replied

TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT

This is Jesus praying for the welfare of His disciples, and for those that would believe on Him through their testimony. Jesus asks that they be all one together, even as He is in God, and God is in Him.

So we are to ignore the words, “to give eternal life to all whom you have given him? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that the Father has plainly given people to the Son? How am I taking this out of context. Yes, Jesus is speaking to the Disciples and for those who would believe through their testimony up until the present day…again how am I taking this out of context?

JaySaved said

KJV Romans 8:29-30 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You wrote

TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT

All of the above mentions not one instance of voluntary faith, obedience, trust, action, and does say that those called are perfected. God has done all. If so, what he has created is a toy.

Now, either the classic statement in Romans is true for all who come to Christ, and this is a description of what happens to each of us, not by force, by Predestination, but by foreknowlege, calling, persuading, until a decision is made, and we are indeed then justified and Glorified in Christ, or there are some robots running around.

Romans 8:29-30 is Paul describing salvation through God’s eyes and these verses are designed to give us hope that even though things get rough on this earth, God is fighting for us and keeping us in His power. Verse 31 wraps Paul’s main point up very well, “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? Did you catch that? If God is for us, who can be against us? No one! Paul goes into more detail in verses 38 and 39, “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” How can Paul make those statement? Because those whom God foreknew He predestined…and those who He predestined He called and those who He called He justified and those whom He justified He glorified.

Now, I know your objection; you have made it clear. You object that the Christian on this earth is glorified already because this indicates perfection and Christians are not perfect. I agree that I am not glorified yet, that still remains in the future, but as I said before this is looking at salvation through God’s eyes, He is eternal and not bound to time. I will be glorified because it is inevitable. I am not glorified yet, but it is as if I am glorified because I will be glorified. I know what you are thinking, ‘That type of thinking is dangerous. A person could get proud and arrogant.’ I agree, but the key is to remember that we do not glorify ourselves. There is nothing we do to glorify ourselves before God. It is God alone who glorifies and it is by His grace that I stand. This is humbling to me. Jude 1:24 sums up what I am trying to say “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,” You see what is keeping me from falling…God alone. Not my works.

I know you didn’t want me to respond to all of this but I had to respond to what you wrote. I see your heart in your writing but I see that you do not understand my position and you seem to be arguing against something that I do not hold to.

I don't mind that you were amused by me, or my statements.

I was not unwilling to have you respond in depth, I just thought you might not want to.

You keep speaking of the 'Reformed Church'. Which one?

Since I do know absolutely nothing about it, tell me what the basics are, so I can see if we are more on the same page than I thought we were.

I am not unwilling to be wrong. I am only unwilling to have my 'yes' to God made to be of no effect.

I am aware that God must do a great deal to get us to that 'yes' point, and after we have said it, the Holy Spirit has to work with or on us very much to keep us growing in God.

How is this different from what your 'Reformed Church' states, if you do not believe in what I see as simple Calvinism?

Still trying to understand you,

I am aware that God must do a great deal to get us to that 'yes' point, and after we have said it, the Holy Spirit has to work with or on us very much to keep us growing in God.

I agree with all that. It is God's working in us to bring us to Christ and it is God working in us to keep us from falling.

I just affirm that those whom God calls He also justifies (Romans 8:30) and He is able to keep us from falling (Jude 1:24)

Brother unique
I would ask that if you feel led, would you listen to this message on the History of Calvinism. I tis done by a man who was at one time Arminian, and done in a very even fashion. This will help in understanding where Jay and I guess myself are coming from.
Every blessing to you :-) [url=http://www.swordandtrowel.org/audio/GL-2005-10-23-PJ.mp3]The History Of Calvinism[/url]

Bro, I have read a lot on Calvin and Calvinism since this debate began, but I will listen yet again, for love of my brothers and sisters.

Blessings,