All Christians should be vegetarians.

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [b][and commanding] to abstain from meats[/b], which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

And here I was thinking that Tennessee was synonymous with BBQ -I guess I was mistaken. Unless you like BBQ tofu.

Bubba, I agree with you, we need to be better stewards of what God has given us -this planet.

I don't necessarily think it's a sin to eat meat -Jesus had a passover dinner, and what do they eat on passover? Lamb!

Paul said he liked meat, but he would consider being a vegetarian too... why? Because he wanted to reach narrow minded vegetarians with the Gospel.

There are a lot of reasons not to eat meat, but I think you need to find better feet to stand on.

My father works for the federal government for public works and does a lot of work on sustainability -I think we need to consider what sastainable agricultural and livestock practices are. We need to create a clean and sustainable way to raise cattle, I'm sure there is one or else the Jews wouldn't have had so many cattle to sacrifice!

[u][b][color=CC0000]All Christians should be vegetarians [/color][/b][/u]is your opinion. It hasn't been commanded by God. The Scriptures cleary show that meat is okay to be eaten since the flood.

[color=0033CC]Genesis 1:27-31
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.[/color]

[color=009900]Genesis 9:1-4
1And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. [/color]

"For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." - 1 Tim. 4:4-5

Moreover, it was not God's intention for us, anyway.

Lets look at this in light of Scripture, i need only be brief;

Matthew 26:17-21
Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand;[b] I will keep the passover[/b] at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. [b] And as they did eat,[/b] he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Here we see that the Lord kept and ate the Passover, but what was it ?

Exodus 12:1-11

And the LORD spoke unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month[b] they shall take to them every man a lamb,[/b] according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for a house: And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. [b] And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. [/b] And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: [b]it is the LORD's passover[/b]

So Jesus ate roast Lamb

Lets look at a different example from our Lord's time on the earth,

Luke 24:41-43

And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? [b] And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of a honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them.[/b]

Jesus also ate fish, which is not a vegetable.

matt and mim

Hi Bubba...

You might also want to convince other animals with sharp teeth to stop eating meat. However, I think that vegetarian lions wouldn't last very long in the wild (or captivity).

Acts 10:9-16

;-)

answer in genesis check them out

genesis 1:29 is a command to abstain from animal flesh given to mankind before the fall from grace. we were only given permission to eat animals after the fall. so you could say that it is okay for those who prefer this later state to keep it up. (this is not to say that vegetarianism improves anyone's spiritual condition, but that God created us as vegetarians and that shouldn't be ignored.) Bub

Jesus was not affected by the fall and he ate meat.

Bubba is mislead, but some of the comments here are uncalled for. It is ill humour that christians should not partake in.

Bubba came in here with a seriousness, believing seriously in what he stated. we should respond back with all seriosness leading him lovingly to the truth. When I said lovingly, I do not mean as the world, that is void of truth, but our motive should be filled with love desiring much for bubba to see.

Good point...

Jesus was not affected by the fall and he ate meat.

I understand the argument against "animal cruelty" in a sense that some torturous killing of animals as a means of preserving flavor might not be moral. Additionally, there are arguments concerning hunting as a sport versus hunting as a means of obtaining food. Regardless, I feel that raising LIVESTOCK is a very valid means of providing food to a large group (such as, uh, the United States).

The quote from Genesis might have been valid for the Garden of Eden (even though it is unclear as a possible command to [u]refrain[/u] from meat). Since we no longer live in the garden, we need the protein and sustenance to survive and thrive that comes from the eating of meat. After all, the Lord provided us teeth expressly designed for tearing flesh.

As for evidence that such consumption is destroying our planet, we should always be careful to avoid waste. Yet it seems to be a stretch to label meat-eaters as a cause of such destruction. A professor friend of mine is embarking on a mission to breed rabbits in third world nations. Rabbits could be a great source of protein in areas that are desperate for such nourishment. They are low maintenance, and are quite "fruitful." He has begun this project with the Tarahumara in the Sierra Madre Occidental, as well as in areas of Africa.

:-)

Answers in Genesis has an excellent explanation of this whole matter. Go to:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/bad_things.asp

I like Krispy's Big Bang theory.

Not to jibe you Bubbaguy, but this thread reminded me of some hillbilly logic in response to vegetarians...

If the good Lord didn't intend for us to eat animals, then why did he make 'em out of meat?

....cased closed. ;-)

MC

You might also want to convince other animals with sharp teeth to stop eating meat.

[image][img]http://www.boneclones.com/images/bc-007_web-lg.jpg[/img]

However getting back to the issue take a look at Luke 24:40-43

40 When He [Jesus] had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.

Bubbaguy, are you saying that Jesus was wrong to do this?

Does anyone remember the "Hallelujah Diet" where some high-falutin theologian got this brilliant idea that a diet of only seeds and herbs and fruit (as extrapolated from the book of Genesis pre-fall) could be the secret to health and longevity? From what I understand, it was all the rage on TBN. Books were written, tape series were sold. Somehow this guy came to the conclusion that if you only eat certain seeds and herbs that you can totally cleanse your body of all toxins and live for a really long time (that is, if you don't get hit by a truck on your way to the seed store). He even claimed that the Edenesque seeds and herbs could cure cancer and asthma and a host of other maladies brought on by a carnivorous diet. This isn't to mock your post, Bubba. I actually happen to believe that we could be a lot healthier and show better stewardship over our Holy Ghost temples if we were to drastically cut down our red-meat and fried food intake.

Fresh fish and fruits and vegetables - I'm gradually working my way there!

Peace and health in Jesus' Name,

Brother Paul

bubbaguy wrote:

Christians are to love others and today the act of participating in the market for commercial meat is a voilation of this. it is to discount the rights of others.

Bub

Wow, so I guess the first disciples weren't lovers of others... you know... Peter, Andrew, James and John... all marketplace fishermen...

Interesting that Jesus made close friends with such VIOLATERS. The cruelty!

Bubba, do you mind then doing all my hunting for me? Because, you see, I have a family to support and I can't be away from them every season to try and catch food. I don't have time to sit in the woods and wait, which is why I prefer meat that someone has already caught for me.... which I can find in the marketplace, from people who actually had time to hunt, and kill.

Here is another ponderous thought: If everyone did there own hunting today, How would all the other business's run? Wouldn't they all be out hunting? So much for getting gasoline, having use of the telephone, internet, tv, going to restraunts, having a working government system (etc.)... we'd all be out hunting.
:-(

PaulWest wrote:
I actually happen to believe that we could be a lot healthier and show better stewardship over our Holy Ghost temples if we drastically cut down our red-meat and fried food intake.

Fresh fish and fruits and vegetables - I'm gradually working my way there!

I agree Paul

I like Krispy's Big Bang theory.

I believe in the Big Bang theory to!

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

great noise: in the Greek - roizhdon - "Big Bang" :-P

bubbaguy wrote:
"For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." - 1 Tim. 4:4-5

HomeFree89,

"and nothing to be refused," . . . you set yourself up here, buddy, there is some pretty funky meat out there. :)

bub

Trust me, I wouldn't eat some of the stuff that's out there, but I don't think it's biblically or morally wrong to eat meat. :-D

Jordan

the passover would have a bit of a problem with out the sacrifical lamb

Acts 10:9-18
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. 17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, 18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

bubbaguy wrote:
Matt,

genesis 1:29 is a command to abstain from animal flesh given to mankind before the fall from grace. we were only given permission to eat animals after the fall. so you could say that it is okay for those who prefer this later state to keep it up. (this is not to say that vegetarianism improves anyone's spiritual condition, but that God created us as vegetarians and that shouldn't be ignored.) Bub

PS. yes, i said God created us.. we agree on this, its just the details of how this happened that we differ upon.

Right, but Adam and Eve also didn't wear any clothing before the "fall from grace", so if you're goning to put it that way we shouldn't be wearing clothes.

Jordan

This is my own personal quote, partly based on observation and partly an epiphany, 'There are no vegetarians in third world countries.'

Having said that, there are vegetarians in India, and in the past in parts of China and Japan. They have been vegetarians because they believe that because of karma we are reincarnated into animals -thus eating animals is cannibalism.

I believe that God put the dietary restrictions on the Jews because he desired them to live healthy life -no one is going to argue that beef is margionally more healthy than pork. But also to set them apart.

If your personal testimony says that it's a sin to eat meat, then by all means be a vegetarian. But the second you tell someone that they have to be a vegetarian to be a Christian, you're forcing that person under the law -that's sin!

As New Covenant believers we are under grace, if it doesn't condemn it in the new testament like it does sexual immorality and other social sins, than it isn't sin. The new testament gave us all sorts of dietary freedoms restricted under the old law, thank God, because I love sushi!

HomeFree89 wrote:

bubbaguy wrote:
Matt,

genesis 1:29 is a command to abstain from animal flesh given to mankind before the fall from grace. we were only given permission to eat animals after the fall. so you could say that it is okay for those who prefer this later state to keep it up. (this is not to say that vegetarianism improves anyone's spiritual condition, but that God created us as vegetarians and that shouldn't be ignored.) Bub

PS. yes, i said God created us.. we agree on this, its just the details of how this happened that we differ upon.

Right, but Adam and Eve also didn't wear any clothing before the "fall from grace", so if you're goning to put it that way we shouldn't be wearing clothes.

Jordan

Exactly!

iansmith wrote:

If your personal testimony says that it's a sin to eat meat, then by all means be a vegetarian. But the second you tell someone that they have to be a vegetarian to be a Christian, you're forcing that person under the law -that's sin!

As New Covenant believers we are under grace, if it doesn't condemn it in the new testament like it does sexual immorality and other social sins, than it isn't sin. The new testament gave us all sorts of dietary freedoms restricted under the old law, thank God, because I love sushi!

Couldn't have said it better! Sushi rocks!

We have to remember though, as Bubba is implying: Even though GOD says it's good, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's good. God really doesn't know what he is talking about. He only created us, he really doesn't know what food is good for us. He's just merely suggesting that it's good.

It must be a conspiracy. Is God calling something good that is really bad only to spite us and cause lightening to strike us down? We must all be pawns in God's little game of chess. :-o

In refrence to the original post about Christians being vegetarians...Here is my proffessional opinion on the subject.

[b]I think that all vegetarians should become Christians.[/b]

Reason being, that if they had the heart of Christ for the dying men and women of the world like they should, then these issues of meat or vegetables would fall to the wayside in their pursuit of souls.

[b]How sad that their is more compassion for a dying animal, then there is for a soul that is going to hell.[/b]

Very true -while I think there is a need for both of them, I've always wondered what would happen if Green Peace and Peta activists were sold out for Jesus, for the lost, and not just for the world and animals.

I can't help but think that this is almost modern day idol worship.

bubbaguy wrote:
krispy,

you are right, i am not "pro-choice." i don't believe we should solve problems by using violence, and abortion is clearly violence.

but this applies to food as well. humans don't need to employ violence to put healthy, nutrious food on the table.

i don't expect you to change your ways for sometime, krispy, so in the meantime here's some ways to reduce your carcinogen levels.

http://altmedicine.about.com/b/a/257713.htm

happy eatin'

bub

Come again???

humans don't need to employ violence to put healthy, nutrious food on the table.

So, how does someone eat without performing some "violent" act? Bubba, please clarify what you mean by "violence." After all, you basically said in earlier posts that you have respect for those who hunt animals. So, tell me, how must I eat without some form of "killing?"

Would this not apply to veggetables and fruit too? After all, once it is chewed up and digested in our bodies, it is dead. So, shouldn't we just outlaw all food as Christians?

How horrible that we all must be to kill such poor soul-less food to survive.

I can only imagine what Jesus must be going through right now having been convicted by Bubba's "truth." I mean, all those years of Jesus eating fish, lamb, and other meats. Jesus must be feeling utterly ashamed of himself.

Judging by the responses, bubbaguy hit a nerve with this topic :-D

While I'm not a vegetarian, I think eating meat is part of God's permissible will, not his perfect will.

On the issue of divorce Jesus answered the Pharisee's question "Why did Moses allow it?", with a reference to Genesis and said God allowed it because they were so hard to teach, however it was not so in the beginning...

In the beginning God said "I give you the plants for your food". Later after man's fall (after the flood actually), God said "I give you the plants and animals". Abel obviously raised livestock before the flood, however this was after the fall.

Another passage which would indicate that it's not God's perfect will, is the prophecy that states the lion and lamb will graze together, and a child will play near a snake without getting hurt.

Just some thoughts
PassingThru

One thing that's interesting about this thread is that Bubba doesn't even think Adam was a real person. So, why are we talking about what he ate? ;-)

Jordan

Hi Dorcas

I'm amazed you are talking about 'not God's perfect will'. Don't we all think something like this about the way Lucifer turned on his Creator, forcing Him to take radical action to save life because He loved the world?

Good point. The priority in the 'backup' plan is human salvation and since eating meat is allowed, I don't give a lot of importance to being a vegetarian.

However I think God loves every detail of his original creation, and I don't think that included living beings eating each other. One aspect is that eating meat involves death and death entered the world through man's sin.

[color=000088]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (Rom 8:22)[/color]

Krispy said that animals don't have rights, but I think they do. God gave earth and all of it's creatures to mankind to administer. I think we should be good stewards in the way we deal with God's creation.

Just because God is willing to forfeit this creation in his rescue plan, and that he allows us to eat meat, doesn't mean creation should treat it with contempt. Nature and all that is in it still serves the purpose of bringing glory to God, which is why the spirit of this age is so hell-bent on destroying it.

Quite frankly, I think there is something very satanic about the way research in modern medicine is based on the torture of millions of animals. Hitler took it a giant step further, but I think the spirit is the same. (That's probably a topic for another thread :-) )

PassingThru

So, Bubba, does your Bible only contain Genesis in it? I find it interesting that you mention Genesis over and over, and forget that there is more to the Bible.

Bubba, here's some Scripture for you to... digest.

Deuteronomy 12:15
[b]Nevertheless, you may slaughter your animals in any of your towns and eat as much of the meat as you want, as if it were gazelle or deer, according to the blessing the LORD your God gives you. Both the ceremonially unclean and the clean may eat it. [/b]

Deuteronomy 12:20
When the LORD your God has enlarged your territory as he promised you, and you crave meat and say, "I would like some meat," then you may eat as much of it as you want.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

I really dont know why this whole debate is even necessary. Instead of everyone espousing opinions like they were inspired, why dont y'all just read the Bible? Novel idea, I know... but sometimes the Bible gets it right.

Krispy

I don't know Krispy, the Bible seems like a sketchy place to look for truth, especially if you read past Genesis 1... :-?

Krispy

Personally I think God made an adjustment in mankind after the flood. During the era when He drastically reduced man's lifespan.

...or possibly He only bonzai'd them by adjusting the environment they live in - The air they breathe, the sunlight they absorb and the composition of the food they eat.

[color=0000FF]Exo 16:31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like [b]coriander seed[/b], white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.[/color]

[color=0000FF]Psa 78:24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the [b]corn of heaven[/b].[/color]

It looks like manna wasn't made of flesh, yet I doubt it was missing vitamin B-12. :-)

God wasn't very happy with their request for meat at the time. Differently to the manna, I don't think the Bible ever refers to the meat as being from heaven.

I really dont know why this whole debate is even necessary. Instead of everyone espousing opinions like they were inspired, why dont y'all just read the Bible? Novel idea, I know... but sometimes the Bible gets it right.

Exactly...

[color=0000FF]Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat [b]straw[/b] like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.[/color]

All scriptures in favour of eating meat are between man's fall and "I make all things new". There doesn't seem to be any reference to meat eating outside of this time frame, nor in heaven. I think God's ideal is far higher than any human has gotten close to since the fall. You'd better get used to the idea of eating manna :-D

I do agree though that it isn't a prime issue for us today, which is why I continue to eat meat.

PassingThru

I have not read all the replies to this thread so forgive me if I am sharing information already shared.

Many years ago [16] while pastoring a church I had a heart attack that was followed with a 5 bypass heart surgery. Then I was 49 years old and this was my first major health event. One the primary means I have been able to survive these last 16 year is full compliance to a plant based diet that was given to me from Dr. Esselstyn of the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio.

All pastors have church members who have suffered heart problems. February 2007 Dr. Esselstyn published a new book that describes his 20 year study with folks like me. You can learn something of this program at www.heartattackproof.com

I am not giving up my barbecue I guess I will just keep living in sin if eating meat is a sin , well what's new I am in good company we "all" are sinners, at least that is what my Bible says, hey Momma pass them ribs. :-?

... I'll bite.

Funny thing... you don't need to take Vitamin B-12 if you're a carnivore like me. You get plenty of it in the meat you eat.

:-P T-Rex is my distinguished colleague in these matters. Being the pickiest of picky eaters ever created on this planet ... No bunny food on my burgers, salads belong in a bowl.

I can full well understand the health problems of those who are so constituted that an abstinence is necessary, all these things. To make a 'must' or an 'ought' as this post has suggested is to dislodge whole swaths of scripture as has already been mentioned not to forget the imposing of things arbitrary into yet another form of legalism.

Have a metabolism that still yet defies all the things I heard growing up; "You just wait ..." At 44, haven't fluctuated 5 pounds in either direction for some 25 years, with a couple of exceptions. In fact to allude to Krispy's mention of weight training and such ... there was a spell where I was very much into all this and to put on weight was as seemingly impossible for me as it is for those who struggle with it's opposite. Pasta and ice cream, the buckets of weight gain formula that would leave me bloated ... after a few months of this finally was able to put on about 15 pounds. Finding it all impossible to keep up with and with the changes life brings directing towards different avenues, went right back to the 'normal' again... this from someone who can sit down and eat 3 steaks without being a glutton about it.

This is making me hungry.

If there is any point at all about this just thank God that this whole matter has already been decided. Be a vegetarian if you like and all the more power to you, recall Daniel here, in fact fasting from ALL foods for a time is a far better subject matter. But to the carnivores there is no shame no matter who is trying to impose it upon anyone.

With the bit of levity, also the serious...

Many years ago [16] while pastoring a church I had a heart attack that was followed with a 5 bypass heart surgery. Then I was 49 years old and this was my first major health event. One the primary means I have been able to survive these last 16 year is full compliance to a plant based diet that was given to me from Dr. Esselstyn of the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio.

Hope that what I or others have stated does not overshadow those whose experience is far different. Dear sir, thank you for sharing this here.

Man, now I am wondering what to do my favorite song used to be Cheeseburger in Paradise. :-P

Hi sister, think Ron (philologos) made a mention of this somewhere in here.

(double post)

PassingThru

All you carnivores want to come over for a charcoal grilled steak supper? I will use pecan wood to give it added flavor....Last spring we had an grass fed angus steer (oh, horrors!) slaughtered for meat and it is some kind of good...yummmmm

ginnyrose

I am on my way! Pecan "sometimes" gives me a little indigestion, but I'll take a little indigestion for a good old Steak dinner, do I need to bring anything Green Tea,Ocean Spray cranberry juice? :-P

Come on guys, let's not make big joke out of this. Bubba feels strongly about this and we shouldn't mock him. We all have issues that we feel passionate about and even if we don't agree with Bubba we shouldn't cause him to stumble by our liberty.

Jordan

HomeFree89 wrote:
Come on guys, let's not make big joke out of this. Bubba feels strongly about this and we shouldn't mock him. We all have issues that we feel passionate about and even if we don't agree with Bubba we shouldn't cause him to stumble by our liberty.

Jordan

HomeFree89, don't think that was anyones intentions to mock him, personally I don't think you know some of us well enough here to be judging our intentions on our posts you read "way" to much into these posts, and if you call yourself a Christian and your going to stumble over rather you should eat meat, Brother you going to have a long row to hoe. :-(

by HomeFree89
Come on guys, let's not make big joke out of this. Bubba feels strongly about this and we shouldn't mock him. We all have issues that we feel passionate about and even if we don't agree with Bubba we shouldn't cause him to stumble by our liberty.

Jordan,

I don't mean to sound calloused and generally ill-hearted, but this attitude is a problem.

False doctrine or speculative doctrine on which we try to bring others to account is ill-advised. In fact it is pretty much about as bad as you can get. If it is not true, it is called deceit and is just about the worst thing a "teacher" can give to a student. Even if the doctrine is fitfully ignored, deceit is not so easily forgotten.

As such, Bubba is pretty well known for his speculative doctrine, most of which is flatly contradicted. The rest of it is logically inconclusive.

PassingThru wrote:
You'd better get used to the idea of eating manna

Just a little side note. McDonald's makes some of the world's worst hamburgers (personal opinion, but I swear it should be fact). But - and I strongly endorse this - the corporation is a good thing. It is odd to think that the requirement of a booming food industry is a way in which to increase growth size and rate of any given product. That means its going to be "unnaturally" tendered. Without a booming agrarian culture, the ability to uphold the arts and sciences deteriorates. I wouldn't doubt any logical person here can say that western culture could survive if the bulk of our population had to work with the soil. Businesses would fall apart. City-dwellers would die of starvation. Americans would be forced to redistribute their population to extremes and God knows what Europeans would/could do. Our population density forbids our ability to control our food supply.

It just surprises me how little people care to know what their society is based on. This is som'n. We can disagree with it all we want, but to actually change it or verbally require its change is heralding idiocy.

This side note will be little.
If you might consider for a moment, there are a number of ways to lead a good life. If a missionary were to die at 35 we would not condemn "his" life, or even call it bad. Since this whole idea is based upon longevity and health...
Postulate with me that living to a ripe old age is not indicative of goodness.

Does that make a difference?

Jordan wrote,

Come on guys, let's not make big joke out of this. Bubba feels strongly about this

Jordan, I understand your concern but after reading this thread yesterday, there was a recurring thought I could not dodge: the philosophy of vegans, et al is so seriously flawed. If they are so serious I will invite them to our greenhouses to remove all of our white flies. I will give them all the jars with lids they need so they can put them in there so they can take them home and loose them in the wild where they can go 'forth and multiply.' Am I mocking? Sounds like it, right? But get real! This whole philosophy deems all of nature to be sacred and its life to be preserved at any and all costs to human well-being...if I recall it right it is called pantheism. Granted Bubba was talking about the human consumption of animal flesh and not about other critters having any of their rights to life violated. Whatever I have read about this mindset, it is all part and parcel from the same pie.

Since you are talking about animals, birds grown in confinement to be sold and slaughtered for human consumption.....how many of those who raise a stink about this are not new agers? They appeal to the emotional mind for sympathy in how a critter is raised and then want to pass laws to limit it....Seems to me we would do well to take literally what 1Ti 4:1,3-5 tells us: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received, with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Now if you actually were talking about meats offered to idols and whether one should eat them or not, I will give you lots of room to differ on whether it is ok to eat that. If I understand the original post, this was not the issue.

One cannot argue with God and win.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

PS: BroBill, don't bother to bring anything...I will furnish it all!

HomeFree89, don't think that was anyones intentions to mock him, personally I don't think you know some of us well enough here to be judging our intentions on our posts you read "way" to much into these posts, and if you call yourself a Christian and your going to stumble over rather you should eat meat, Brother you going to have a long row to hoe.

That may be so, but I think it would be better to have given Bubbaguy a serious scriptural answer.

As I've already mentioned, I have no problem with meat eating and do so myself, however I agree with his statement that it wasn't God's [original] intention.

To give the jokes issue a different perspective try re-reading this thread as being "All Christians should be tea-totalers" and substitute the word "meat" for "alcohol". I think you will see how easily someone can have a different (even incorrect) view and be offended by the jokes that were made.

For the record, I don't think there is anything wrong with drinking alcohol in moderation, however traditional Christian views in many parts of the world disagree strongly with this. I would be cautious with responding to these peoples' views with "Come around for Rum and Coke" jokes, even if I think they are as wrong as the "All Christians should be Vegetarians" crowd.

I am often quick to be sarcastic with people myself, but I think we need to discuss these topics in a way that edifies Bubbaguy and avoid any hint of putting him down.

We also need to remember that this is a public forum and viewed by thousands of anonymous people. I'm sure most of these don't know you well enough and sadly they were probably unnecessarily offended instead of being edified by a mature handling of the topic.

PassingThru.

its good when people are directing a brother who got his "doctrines" mixed up as i think bubba does, i admire him for so caring for nature and this gift God gave us in this world, many people don't care bubba, not even most Christians, they are to comfortable whit going to McDonald's whiteout even thinking one thought about it, i can say we raped this earth God gave us, we should have done a better job at taking care of it, and as for all the jokes against you bubba, i feel sad, i think it is a serious thing when people make jokes when they know the brother is going down a wrong road("doctrine"), as for leading you right and trying to show you through scripture what is right and true, but i don't think many of the jokes made against you came from God when people posted them,

i pray God will protect me from such people if i ever misinterpret the book, if i ever don't understand the book as well as others... that some one would make jokes about it, i pray God will send someone who would be mature enough to show me the truth.

another thing is, it makes me sad that so many part take in thread such as this whiteout adding something that actually is helpful, many many post in this thread is just painful to read. People find one guy and we attack because we "know" he is wrong... and of course we by ourselves are so good in understanding the scriptures because that is something we got from our selfs, everything you know about the bible or understand about spiritual things you got from God, many act as they are just smarter then other people and "wave" around their knowledge pretending they got it from their own smart head, may God have mercy on us that we understand that what we know we should share in love correcting our brothers "faults" and "misunderstandings",

its a sad thing when we pretend we are smart and know so much if we do it just to mock people or show them how wrong they are, EVEN IF WE ARE RIGHT,

may God humble us to do this in a right way, making jokes mocking and scorn are wrong, and that is something we need to repent from. I know when we all others didn't always have such "a pure" doctrine...did you guys always know so much? did you ever had a wrong understanding of scripture? did someone crack jokes about you then and thats why you act like a third grade bully? now when god by his grace made you understand things in the bible our brother bubba hasn't fully come to understand yet.

this is a sad thread, i will pray for my self, for bubba and all others to, that God will humble us

many will post a "defence" post to justify what they posted and their motives behind it and so on, but what i mean is i cant find anywhere in scripture where Jesus Christ makes a joke about someone who have a wrong understanding of scripture? can anyone find that? why dident all the diciples joke about judas? or Jesus could have made i dont know 100 of jokes about them for they where constantly misunderstanding something... but he dident.... Paul could have made a 101 best jokes about corinth...but he wrote a letter instead..

we shouldent be joking about bubba...we should be weeping on our knees for him, and i hope some of you are.

God bless you
Christian

All Christians should be vegetarians

Has pretty well invited enough of this brother and to be honest the onus is on the poster. Bubba well knows us and many here know him. What results would be expected from such a heading other than being controversial...

If it had been put "[i]Should all Christians be vegetarians?"[/i] or even just "[i]Should Christians be vegetarians?"[/i] The whole tenor might have been different.

There is also no getting around the fact that 'Bubba' has often brought forth a variety of decidedly unbiblical notions, poured into the scriptures his own thoughts and opinions, extracted that which fits and ignored many others. Evolution, the environment, testing by collective 'spiritual' reasoning over appealing to the scriptures. To be honest it still puzzles both why we still give so much patience and why he still yet bothers to join us here having such decidedly arbitrary views. That is not to say anything beyond what is stated. As a person, more than a few have prayed in a variety of matters, after he was robbed at gun point for instance.

Once again we are at that "[i]play the ball, not the man[/i]" intersection.

Having said all that, some levity is often just as difficult to ascertain. We can at the same time be too 'touchy feely', dismissive or even just careless and flippant.

There is just as much a flip-side to all this as a topic, from the same point of conservation would be the ramifications of animal overpopulation and that effect on the environment as just a mention, hardly have the knowledge to go into it all.

It is difficult brother in the concern shown for one we perceive as going down the wrong road, more so when there is no give or change of heart or mind even after so much resource here is challenging many on many fronts. It may well be so, but we rarely hear that. Far greater matters than what is at hand here ...

[i]But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.[/i] 2Ti 2:23-26

In it's context, would be reading it from the bottom up, towards the top;

No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [i]this[/i] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 2Ti 2:4

How often are we doing just this?

bartle wrote:
now that is Gooooooooood eating.

lemme hear it!

YeeeeeeeeeeHaaaawwww!!!

etc...etc...

I must say, Neil (and perhaps this has already been said), that the comments made in this post were insensitive at best, and disrespectful at worst. You may notice that Paul placed the onus on the "meat eater" to not eat meat around the "vegetarian", so as not to offend. I am not a vegetarian, and this would not be the first time that I have disagreed with bubba's point of view (welcome back, by the way. I was wondering what happened to you:-)), but I do have friends who are vegetarians, and their feelings are deeply hurt when people rub the proverbial meat in their face. For a lot of them, meat is a disgusting thing, and it would be comparative to talk about feeding them excrement to them.

Interestingly, I think that Bubba has a point here. If man was vegetarian before the fall, then would that potentially mean that he could be after? I have heard Ken Ham & Co claim that meat was introduced after the flood, as a possible result of their being extinct plant life, which needed to be supplemented, in order to have proper nutritional intake. On one hand, it would make sense that the removal of the curse upon man could reverse the need of this, seeing as "man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that precedes from the mouth of God".

However, it is hard to ignore Jesus' partaking of teh passover.

Bubbaguy

you are right, the title is kinda in your face.

but it is what i believe.

Well, you managed to get some in-your-face answers to your opinion, which is a pity because it could otherwise have been a useful discussion.

it think it is a mistake to read and intepret the bible literally.

I think most posters here accept the Bible as being infallible and authoritive. I believe that God, who create this world with all of it's wonders, including humans, doesn't have any difficulties in preserving his Word through the ages for their instruction and guidance.

Until you have resolved the question of the authority of the Bible, there is no point in discussing the validity of vegetarianism on a Christian forum. It's like bringing up the walls of a house before you've laid the foundations.

This brings me to a question - What is the foundation of your opinions and reasoning? What reference points do you base them on, and how sound are they?

PassingThru

HomeFree89 wrote:
Come on guys, let's not make big joke out of this. Bubba feels strongly about this and we shouldn't mock him. We all have issues that we feel passionate about and even if we don't agree with Bubba we shouldn't cause him to stumble by our liberty.

Jordan

That Lord has been convicting me about my last post and I would like to ask everyones' forgiveness.

What I was trying to say is that even though we don't agree with Bubba, there is no cause to keep rubbing it in his face that we eat meat.

Jordan

Bubbaguy

the universe and all that is in it is imperfect, except God alone.

I don't believe God made anything imperfect, however some of his creation is corrupted due to it's own free will.

i find holding the bible to be perfect and infallible to be a form of idolatry.

In what way? Is it beyond a perfect God to deliver a perfect message?

it is as if you don't trust God's ability to communicate with you through the Holy Spirit in the here and now, today.

I fully trust God's ability to communicate, however I don't fully trust my ability to listen and discern.

a question to ask is whether you are substituting the written word for the active presense of God.

An inverse question : are you preferring your own senses, to the recorded words of Christ?

If so, why would the Holy Spirit tell you something different in an infallible way that he couldn't have told a multitude of scribes and translators in an equally infallible way?

Why would you ever expect the perfect Holy Spirit of God to use your imperfect, solitary perception to "correct" something that he has already confirmed in writing through multiple authors, with portions of it delivered to witnesses by Christ himself?

If you want to build a house, you need at least a couple of fixed reference points. In your case you are building it without fixed reference - when something doesn't lineup, you move your original reference points. That house is doomed before it reaches ceiling level. That's why satan loves the "It's all relative" philosophy.

To repeat my question - what reference do you consider fixed in your life? Your perception of the Holy Ghost's voice alone? No decent pilot relies on a single instrument alone to the exclusion of others - and all of them need to say the same thing.

By considering the Bible untrustworthy, you are falling into the very snare that brought Man's downfall - "Did God really say...?".

PassingThru

Written by bubbaguy on 2007/2/19 8:54:07:
it think it is a mistake to read and interpret the bible literally.

Written by bubbaguy on 2007/2/14 11:35:
Moreover, it was not God's intention for us, anyway.

http://bible.cc/genesis/1-29.htm

Bub

Maybe I'm nuts here, but aren't these two statements contradictory? Moreover, isn't Genesis Chapter 1 and at least the first three verses of chapter 2 a hymn? If the bible isn't to be interpreted literally, then the account of Genesis one must be taken as figurative - especially an ancient Hebrew song. The figurative distincion is just as (or more) apt to be a comparison of choices than it is a statement of what Adam likely ate.

Also, I must point out that the whole of the first three chapters of Genesis are some of the most easily contestable in the bible for a variety of reasons.

I still don't see how the context of this verse justifies the premise of vegetarianism.

I'll differ from most Christians on your diet. Believe in the extra energy you get from eating no or few meats? Oh yes, try 4-9 miles a day in the wildernes or at your running trail and see Christ in your eyes.
I defend fish, and beef, yet I dispise chickens and will eat them no longer (except eggs), because chickens are strangled.
Try Acts 15:20: But that we write onto them, that they abstayne from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled and from bloud.

Actually Christians in addition to a broad range of foods you can eat, you add many herbs to your health palate. Herbs are for the service of man,from Genesis 1, Noah and David.
Psalm 104:14: He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herbe for the service of man; that he may bring forth food out of the earth
K>J>V

Psalm73 wrote:
I dispise chickens and will eat them no longer (except eggs), because chickens are strangled.

I despise living in a wooden house because
trees are cut down to build them. :-P

Psalm73 wrote:

yet I dispise chickens and will eat them no longer (except eggs), because chickens are strangled.

I am unaware chickens are killed this way...the way we kill chickens is by using a sharp ax and wham! cut the head off...FYI, all animals, fish, birds are killed before being cooked and then eaten.

Now how about plant life...seems like I read on Answers in Genesis who say that plants are aware of their environment and respond to it? If this is the case how can you deal with that, killing the plant and eating it?

ginnyrose

...plants are aware of their environment and respond to it? If this is the case how can you deal with that, killing the plant and eating it?

This raises an interesting question...according to Darwinian orthodoxy, both plants and animals branched from the same organism...at what point do the animals have more rights then their cellular relatives the plants? Are they not the same material?

Is it according to the 'consciousness' of the life'?

Bubbaguy,

Out of curiousity and sincerity, let me respectfully inquire if your choice to be a vegetarian is somehow linked to your belief in reincarnation whereby human souls can be reborn within the body of a non-human life. (intentionally or unintentionally.) I only ask this because I feel reincarnational systems are instinctively more 'spiritually' compatible with Darwinianism, which you also affirm, then Christianity. (Can we agree this is the case historically?) For instance a Buddhist might see a spiritual kinship with animals accordingly...

All living things fear being beaten with clubs.
All living things fear being put to death.
Putting oneself in the place of the other,
Let no one kill nor cause another to kill.
Dhammapada 129

Respectfully,

MC