Question on the Rapture

hey sis jeanette
you know, the other day i saw JOhn hagee talking about how the 7 Churches mentioned in the Revelation indicate 7 Church ages with the last being the Laodicean age in which we're supposed to be. nowi didn't see the whole sermon but i wonder how he figured we'd be raptured if God told Laodicea He would spew them out if they didn't repent... :-? anyhow, to me it seems as though the final return of Christ will be at the same time as the rapture, i see them as the same thing because He is gathering together all His elect from all the four corners of the earth. the way Christ speaks to His disciples concerning the end times to me doesn't seem like He is telling them to expect a secret rapture but rather to gird their loins because they would be under persecution.

to me, we as the Church have a lot to answer for. indeed evil is expected of the world but we have enough dirt we need to repent of and be cleansed of before we can be raptured anywhere. if our Lord decides/has decided to use the trib for it then it will be so. Whether He uses the trib or not i guess doesn't matter, the bottom line is we are in need of serious correction. i fear that many people will be disappointed when the rapture doesn't happen, of course many pastors who propagated that message will have a lot of angry people on their hands. to me that is a big part of the great falling away. i don't get a sense that there will be any sweeping away of the Church before the final coming (Christ says nothing about coming secretly for the Church before the second coming) but then again i could be deceived in this matter.

at any rate this is not a thing over which i will part ways with any fellow believer because the bottom line is, if we are here or not, God's grace is sufficient for us all. We can all agree on that.

[color=000099]Rev 3:7-13 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. [i][b]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[/b][/i] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. [/color]

[color=660033] Rev 3:14-22 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/color]

It is true that the seven churches represent seven ages in history. However, these churches have not all disappeared after the next appears. One of them represents Roman catholicism, and they are certainly amongst us today. The Philadelphian church is still with us today as well, she just isn't the most visible. Especially here in America, the vast majority of churches (non-catholic) fall into the Laodicean category.

Note that the Philadelphian church shall be kept from the day of temptation (trial). Also of note, this church is one of only two that the Lord did not rebuke. I truly believe that the true church as represented by the Philadelpians will be raptured before the tribulation. This is a warning to us all. We must examine our hearts and be sure we belong in this "faithful remnant" and not in the deceived Laodicean batch.

Thus you have the inerrent interpretation of scripture as taught by Doug :-)

Well, OK, there you have my take on the matter. Food for thought.

In His Love,

Doug

John173 wrote:
[b]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[/b]

Note that the Philadelphian church shall be kept from the day of temptation (trial). Also of note, this church is one of only two that the Lord did not rebuke. I truly believe that the true church as represented by the Philadelpians will be raptured before the tribulation. This is a warning to us all. We must examine our hearts and be sure we belong in this "faithful remnant" and not in the deceived Laodicean batch.

Hmm, Doug. Have you ever looked at the GREEK meaning of that word 'kept'? It simply means to guard or observe. The word 'kept' doesn't mean to remove. It means to observe brother.[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&verse=10&strongs=5083&page=]Greek Word - Keep[/url]

If you look at the first pharse of the verse, without looking into the greek, you can see that the word means to 'observe'.

[b]Because thou hast [u]kept[/u] the word of my patience[/b], I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Or in a more comprehendable way (Joshua's translation, changing only 'kept'):

Because thou hast observed the word of my patience, I also will guard thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Amen. May God GUARD us, just like He guarded Noah.

LittleGift

Yes, I've heard that teaching too - think Watchman Nee believed it. But its never made much sense to me. It seems much more likely that the 7 churches ALL represent examples of churches that are also found today

well i agree with that. there are those who suffer, those who are likewarm and so on. perhaps there is a predominance of lukewarmness though.

i guess we disagree on whether or not the church is ripe for correction. i think we are and i praise God that He chastens as many as He loves!

either way, God will have His way.

God bless

bro Paul

paulmcg1 wrote:
This is the kind of thead you get when you become bored with the bible.

how do you figure that? :-? :-o

RE:The rapture
To me its clear from the passage below that God Cant carry out his judgement until we are out of here.When did he judge?the moment noah entered the ark and the moment lot left sodom.Not alone that but the two angels could not carry out distruction until lot had left sodom behind.Therefore we will not be hear during the 2nd half of the tribulation when God's judgement is carried out.

luke 17.24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

\tLuk 17:25\t\tBut first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

\tLuk 17:26\t\tAnd as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

\tLuk 17:27\t\tThey did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, [color=FF0033]until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.[/color]
\tLuk 17:28\t\tLikewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

\tLuk 17:29\t\t[color=FF3333]But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.[/color]
One thing we all can agee is that we look forward to his coming

staff

Staff, I think my beliefs are more like yours than any others I've read on this thread. I too think that God will catch-up his church prior to the outpouring of His wrath upon the Earth. I don't see this as the "second coming," but rather a forceful command from on high. Perhaps in two stages (dead-in-Christ first.)

However, I am NO theologian. I only know what I've been taught. Any way God chooses to do it is alright with me. I just want to be sure I'm ready with my lamp full of oil and everything.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=11881&forum=34&start=50&viewmode=flat&order=1]5 Common Mistakes When Studying End Time Prophecy[/url]

sis Jeanette
i thought (and maybe wrongly so) that you didn't think the Church at this time needed chastening so that was what we would have disagreed on. the way i see it is that if Christ said what He said to those 7 Churches in Rev 1-3, that applies to us also. 5 out of 7 had some sort of judgment which was threatened against them. for whatever reason so many saints think that we are not going to be judged while we are on this side, well we are. in 1 Peter 2 we are told that judgment begins at the house of God and many saints are going to be caught unawares...

bro Staff

To me its clear from the passage below that God Cant carry out his judgement until we are out of here.When did he judge?the moment noah entered the ark and the moment lot left sodom.Not alone that but the two angels could not carry out distruction until lot had left sodom behind.Therefore we will not be hear during the 2nd half of the tribulation when God's judgement is carried out.

well God has in times past not waited until His people have been taken out of a place before pouring out judgment. for example Egypt, now God did however protect His people from the disasters which hit Egypt. also the destructions of Jerusalem which happened at the hands of various kingdoms, Assyria and babylon for example found many righteous Jews in the teeth of those judgments for example, Jeremiah, Daniel, ezekiel. the last 2 found themselves in Babylon. we see here that the objects of God's wrath are His people, if we are honest with ourselves, we will see that God will deal with us similarly, after all He does say in His word, "I the Lord change not." God's people were always saved through a judgment and were preserved. Lot still had to run, he wasn't whisked away on a cloud. We are really no different than Israel in how we have treated God so we shouldn't expect to be treated any differenly in light of our transgressions before Him. Sure some may say "we are under grace" but Christ didn't come to abolish the law so whatever judgments are meted out to us for our poor treatment and representation of God to the nations are still in effect. God still strikes people down, remember ananias and saphira?

the word says in 1 Peter 2 that the judgment begins at the house of God so this means us. if it begins with us where will the end be? the unrighteous of course! even if we are raptured pre-trib, we have a judgement to face on this side. i personally think that a lot of saints will be disappointed and will fall away from the faith because the rapture doesn't happen as they envision it. i think this is a part of the great falling away Paul mentioned which will precede the coming of Christ. it seems to me that Christ's return IS the rapture since we are ALL gathered together at that time...

anyhow i may be wrong but then again those who believe in the rapture as it is currently understood could be wrong, the bottom line is that we ought to be looking forward to His return. that's really all that counts because whether it's pre-mid-post rapture (if at all we are taken up before He returns) God's grace is sufficient for those He has called from before the foundations of the earth were set. bless God for being a vessel of mercy!

I fall somewhere between the Historicist and the Partial Preterist Camp.

Some things that stand out in my mind are:

1) Matthew 24 and Luke 21:32.
"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Jesus says these words right after his Olivet Discourse. It would seem that Jesus' Great Tribulation talk would be fulfilled during the lifetime of the people who were listening.

2) 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,"
Seems to me that before Jesus returns and we are gathered together to him that there is going to be a great rebellion (apostasy) and the AntiChrist will appear.

3) So much of History seems to be foretold in Revelation. For example, only one interpretation can explain the role of Islam:

[url=http://historicist.tripod.com/ch9.htm]Islam in Revelation[/url]

I am a "pre-wrath rapture" kind of guy, however, I see it taking place some where in the middle of the whole trib.

The Church must see the antichrist, [b]Rev 13:7a[/b] [color=990000]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints...[/color]

Rev. 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Who is He saying this to?

I am pan-rapture. It will all pan out in the end. :-D

pastorfrin wrote:
Rev. 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Who is He saying this to?

to us all who are the Church that we should not be caught with our pants down. it seems more a reference to conduct, that is should reflect righteousness or that we ought to be clothed with righteousness lest our true state (if we are unrighteous) be laid bare for all to see.

bro Goldminer

Goldminer wrote:
I am pan-rapture. It will all pan out in the end. :-D

i'm a pan tribber, it will all pan out!

RE: 'LOGIC', quoting REV 13:7a And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,

Have you considered that the word saints originally referred to those believers in Yeshua ha-Meshiach that were Jewish? Paul, or Saul as he was then known, was not concerned with Gentiles believing in Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.

Acts 9:8. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9. And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
10. And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11. And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12. And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13. Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Then there is the fact that 144,000 young Jewish men will be sealed unto God to preach to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles?

Rev.7:2. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3. Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Immediately after the numbering of the 144,000, the church is seen by John in Heaven! No mention is made at this time of the martyred ones from the Tribulation, although there will be many Jewish and Gentile Martyrs in the sky when we meet Christ.

Rev.7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

The wrath is mentioned in Revelations 6, as a conclusionary description of the opening of the seals and the prayer for the earth to fall on those still alive to protect them.

Rev. 6: 16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There will be many saints that have nothing to do with the 'Church', which, as the harpazo occurs, will no longer be in existance as it is now. Those that convert after the harpazo are not called the Church at all, and are slain for the 'Word of God, and the witness of their testimony', whether Jew or Gentile.

Rev. 6: 9. When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?''
11. And a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

I too considered seriously the wrath part of the promise made to the Church at Philadelphia, but the entire 7 years is the wrath of God on Israel, and the world only secondarily, as their punishment for their bad treatment of Israel, and for rejecting God, as it is the time of Jacob's trouble.

Jeremiah 30:7. Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
8. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9. But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10. Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11. For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
12. For thus saith the Lord, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
13. There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
14. All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
15. Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
16. Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
17. For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the Lord; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
18. Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
19. And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20. Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.

I have considered that death may be forced on me before the harpazo, and have prayed to be willing to suffer it. But the whole point of the 'Blessed Hope' is the hope that I won't have to face death, or the Anti-Christ at all, and that I might actually participate in the 'mystery' of the harpazo.

1 Cor. 15:51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

As for timing matters based on the 'last trump' of Revelations, every convocation of the Jews, on holy days there was a long last blast of the trump. The meeting in the air of the dead and the living in Christ will include many Messianic Jews from thoughout the centuries, and when we meet in the air, it will be 'an holy convocation'.

I know that the pre-wrath position is meant to emotionally cushion against a terrible disappointment if no Rapture happens, or if it happens at an unexpected time.

I believe that God means what He says in the Bible, even when I don't like it.

I pray that my very yearning to 'go home', to meet Jesus in the air will combine with the hopes of all others that believe on the Word, even as it is written in Matt. 18:18. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Please re-consider your position, and agree with me and so many others.

Bessings,

Ironman,

You seem like a skeptical kind of person, which is good in one way. We don't want to walk blindly in the teachings of others.

Have you thoroughly researched the Bible on the matter?

Or, as it seems, are you fighting the wonder of the concept of the Rapture?

Paul said it was a mystery, a previously unrevealed revelation of God. And he didn't go into great detail on the matter in his letters, but how I wish I had been there to hear what he said!

I believe that the Bible is inerrant, or completely without merit. God either meant this or He didn't, just as the Ressurrection either happened, or it didn't, and we are living a lie.

The concept of the harpazo, the Rapture, is what I call 'a hard saying'. Fortunately, if you rest on the Word, and search it diligently, you can find enough justification for a pre-trib Rapture to not believe blindly.

Please, search it out, pray it through, and then pray for 'the Blessed Hope', that as we are not disappointed in Jesus, neither will we be in the 'Mystery' that is not made clear all in one place, but must be put together like a puzzle from many concepts, prophecies, and statements all over the Bible.

I am troubled for you, for you dispute the topic with knowledge, just as I did once.

I was not raised in a church, and had no concepts to overcome, other than my initial dis-belief in Jesus until I understood the gestault of the Bible, the interlocking of Old and New Testaments, and how very Jewish our beliefs are.

It was as if there was a part of me that said, 'This far, but no farther!' There is no other topic in the Bible that I have researched with such anguished diligence.

Do you not want the Rapture to be true?

Does it seem too impossible? Yet there is nothing that is impossible with God.

Or is there something else that keeps you from resting in my greatest hope?

My difficulty was what seemed to be a lack of information in the Bible. Then, as I searched, I was and am amazed at how much I continue to find that lifts up the question of the Rapture.

Only you can search out the question with the help of the Holy Spirit until you are satisfied.

I pray that you will.

Blessings,

Dear Jeannette,

One thing about your post which I read after the others I've already replied to in length is that you were able to sum up in one sentence most of what we should do, no matter what we believe.

To be ready, always watching, with our lamps filled, prepared for the coming of our Lord is not just our duty, but what Jesus spoke about often in the parables.

Believing that Jesus is our Savior is the belief we must have.

The point of knowledge of the 'Rapture', 'The Blessed Hope' is for our comfort as we reach closer to the end times, that we may strengthen one another, rather than tear one another apart over the question.

1 Thess. 4:13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Blessings,

Thanks Ironman for the smile and bit of lightheartedness. I like pan-trib better myself and so when the time comes united we will fly.

All joking aside I believe that the church will go through the first part of the trib to perfect us. We might even be in it now.

I read somewhere that the reference to the woman in the wilderness time times and half a time refers to the church being protected during the last half of the tribulation. Then at the last trump the dead in Christ will rise first and then we that are live and remain will be caught up together in the air and so shall we ever be with Him.

I don't really study end time events. I study issues of the heart so that when the end time events take place I will be ready. However I do study the entire Bible to understand what He quickens to me.

IRONMAN wrote:

to us all who are the church that we should not be caught with our pants down.

Really! ;-) and oh so late into the tribulation. If you look at the whole of Rev. 16
it seems its right before the seventh vial of Gods wrath is poured out.
Rev. 16:15-17
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. [16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. [17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Seems to be getting close to the end and the church is still there.

We had better be ready, He's coming as a thief
you know? Oh almost forgot, only to those who are not watching. So whats the big deal 'WATCH'

Love to All,

pastorfrin

Hi Ironman,
You wrote in part:
after all He does say in His word, "I the Lord change not." God's people were always saved through a judgment and were preserved.
I agree with the above that God's people can be saved through judgement and be perserved but not in these case[color=CC0000]Luke 17:25 to 17:29[/color] where Jesus is talking about the days of the son of man where he clearly says that the godly people like Noah and Lot would not be part of his Judgement on the world and on Sodom.
God took them out and the group of people Jesus is talking about here will be taken out first not through.
I also agree with you that Judgement starts with the house of God.This will have to happen before the rapture or his second coming(which ever you believe)or both.I would say thats where the spirit of Elijah comes into it.
All false teaching can produce "falling away" including false teaching on the rapture but I dont think a delay in his coming will make us fall away even if we have to wait til after the tribulation.Its a big deception though what ever it is.

[color=CC0000] Noah's Ark landed on a high place and Lot escaped to a high place and so I believe we will go to High Place also [/color]

Hi Jeanette just a word of encouragement I guess for you .

The first verse below describes how the day of the lord comes like a thief in the night but it only catches out those in darkness because the third verse down says "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief".
You my friend are in the light and it wont catch you out thats what 1th 5.5 tells me,read it below.

1th5.6 reminds me that only those that are in darkness are asleep(the time for sleeping)but the children of the light should be watching.(as they usually are)

[color=FF0000]1Th 5:2\t\tFor yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.[/color][/color]

\t1Th 5:3\t\tFor when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

[color=FF0000][color=CC0000]1Th 5:4\t\tBut ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.[/color]
\t
\t1Th 5:5\t\tYe are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

\t1Th 5:6\t\tTherefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.

Finally "THe Night" as its used here In my opinion and I maybe wrong so check the bible out and dont take my word for it; is a metaphor for the tribulation.
The day will not over take us like a thief!
Rgds staff

bro UniqueWebRev

Have you thoroughly researched the Bible on the matter?

yes i have and i don't see the catching up of all the saints as being an event which will leave out those saints who are saved during the tribulation. it seems to me that ALL the saints are gathered up at the same time. i don't remember Christ telling the disciples to prepare for a secret rapture or to instruct any other saints to do the same. now i believe what Paul is talking about the catching up of the saints to meet our Lord in the air is a reference to our Lord's final return. why would God take out the saints at the time when the world needs them most? if God's wrath is to be poured out on the world, why should there be no saint to continue to bring men to salvation? clearly many will be saved during those days and has God not always sent His men and women forth with the gospel?

Or, as it seems, are you fighting the wonder of the concept of the Rapture?

i have no problem with the rapture or the concept of it. it is quite valid because we will indeed be swept up in the clouds to meet Him. my issue is with the way it is taught, that the saints will be swept up without a hitch. the issue is that many saints at present seem to be resting on their laurels expecting to be caught away and so have no sense of urgency for doing anything for God. that is my concern. perhaps it is invalid but it seems to me that there is a lot of dirt we as the Church need to be purged of if we're to get into our rapture clothes.

I believe that the Bible is inerrant, or completely without merit. God either meant this or He didn't, just as the Ressurrection either happened, or it didn't, and we are living a lie.

i agree, no argument from me there.

The concept of the harpazo, the Rapture, is what I call 'a hard saying'. Fortunately, if you rest on the Word, and search it diligently, you can find enough justification for a pre-trib Rapture to not believe blindly.

the concept of the rapture as we know it is something which was not believed in the early Church. Christ spoke to His disciples as though they would have to endure the great troubles which were coming, and they did. do you think that it will be any different for us who are the terminal generation? Jesus suffered for our sake and somehow i don't think that the world will be better to us than it was to Him; saints all over the world suffer for His sake, do you think that we here who are not presently suffering as others are in prisons and so on will escape or that we deserve any different? i don't, maybe i am wrong. maybe you are.

Please, search it out, pray it through, and then pray for 'the Blessed Hope', that as we are not disappointed in Jesus, neither will we be in the 'Mystery' that is not made clear all in one place, but must be put together like a puzzle from many concepts, prophecies, and statements all over the Bible.

i look forward to the blessed hope of one day soon meeting our Lord in the skies. i know however (maybe this has something to do with how i feel about this) that my end will not be very nice. my rapture will be death for the gospel. i bless God for it though because the blood of the martyrs continues to make suit before God until the judgment is done. i figure though that what Darby calls the rapture is a twisted view of what Paul was talking about, namely the gathering together of all the saints at the Second coming. Th evidences to support Darby's view are largely based on his own feelings on the subject and so the supporting scriptures are viewed in that light.

I am troubled for you, for you dispute the topic with knowledge, just as I did once.

i thank you for your concern and as our Lord leads you to, pray for enlightenment for me and for yourself also.

Do you not want the Rapture to be true?

i know it to be true, i just don't believe that it will happen the way it is commonly taught and believed.

Does it seem too impossible? Yet there is nothing that is impossible with God.

no not at all, this is a small thing for God. like i said, i just disagree with how it is said it will happen.

Or is there something else that keeps you from resting in my greatest hope?

no, not at all. my concern is that when we are called to suffer which will be soon, many saints will be looking for a rapture and it will not come and will fall away from the Faith on that account.

bro, the bottom line is if i'm wrong, God will straighten it out and we'll be swept up. if you're wrong however as far as the timing of the rapture and a lot of saints who thought there would be no suffering like in the days of old get hit with the pain, there are going to be a lot of mad saints...Whether we are here during the trib or not is at the end of the day no big deal because GOd's grace is sufficient. i'm not going to break fellowship with you or anyone about this. God will work it all out in the end.

bro Goldminer

Thanks Ironman for the smile and bit of lightheartedness. I like pan-trib better myself and so when the time comes united we will fly.

one has to laugh sometimes! God doesn't always cry over us, sometimes He laughs even though we do so much somtimes to displease Him.

All joking aside I believe that the church will go through the first part of the trib to perfect us. We might even be in it now.

i agree with you to some degree in this. We do need to be perfected and purged by fire before we can go anywhere. i tend to believe that it will be a continuous process throughout the tribulation because there will be people being saved till the very last minute. now our Lord will purge us for sure, He may use the trib, or a part of it to that purpose and so i think as long as we can see that, we will not be caught unawares when trouble comes be it for half the trib or the whole trib.

I read somewhere that the reference to the woman in the wilderness time times and half a time refers to the church being protected during the last half of the tribulation. Then at the last trump the dead in Christ will rise first and then we that are live and remain will be caught up together in the air and so shall we ever be with Him.

the woman who is about give birth is Israel/Mary most specifically. the 12 stars are the 12 tribes, the man-child is Jesus christ so the woman can't be the Church because it is Christ who birthed the Church and not the other way around. to me the idea of the gathering of the dead in Christ and then those who are yet living seems to me to be a gathering of the whole elect at His return.

at the end of the day, God's grace is sufficient.

sis Jeannette
WHEW!!! i'm glad we got that sorted out, i had misread your post!

God bless you

bro Pastrofrin
by the way there was no pun intended as far as the Church being caught with her pants down, we were admonished to watch our clothes and see that we are clothed when He returns.

Seems to be getting close to the end and the church is still there.

interesting isn't it...

We had better be ready, He's coming as a thief you know? Oh almost forgot, only to those who are not watching. So whats the big deal 'WATCH

indeed!

bro Staff
point taken. however this at the return of the Son of Man. the Church is gathered up in it's entirety as He returns since there will be people being saved until that very day. i figure that either way if we are raptured pre,mid or post trib, we need cleansing and God can use the trib or portion thereof to that end. either way we need to be ready for a purging.

All false teaching can produce "falling away" including false teaching on the rapture but I dont think a delay in his coming will make us fall away even if we have to wait til after the tribulation.Its a big deception though what ever it is.

indeed, i think the falling away will be an issue for those who expect to tbe raptured without being purged first by fire...

bro. IRONMAN,
I did not take it as a pun. We are to be clothed
as the bride, ready and watching for His return,

The Really! ;-) was for its the Church, thats the answer I was fishing for. It was for those
who refuse to accept the Church is still here
just before the seventh vial is poured out.

pastorfrin

I am not going away but I will be like Him when He appears in His Glory.
Psalms 37:
Colossians 3:

Where could I go? Only Jesus has the words to eternal life and He will never forsake me. At the end of time if we are still present and our spirits have not returned to the Father we shall go forth to meet Him but we are not leaving.

Eddie

bro Pastorfrin
i said what i did because after i posted, i realized that Christ was warning us to be clothed and ready at his return and to be caught with pants down would be nakedness... :-P

Hi Ironman,
I can go with what your saying on purging.
Jesus described John as a Friend of The Bridegroom;My Understanding is that he had to help get the Bride ready.Perhaps a future Elijah will help get the bride ready by bringing a purging or a judgement or/and a repentance.
As to the timing of this purging, it will have to be before the rapture or his Second coming(depending on your belief,altough one has to be correct)because it will be too late afterward!
Rgds Staff

Ironman,

Thank you for answering so specifically.

I'd like to answer your exact quotes, but I am new to this site, and don't know how to use the quote buttons, or whether there is a copy feature.

I was only troubled because I felt there was some confusion in your heart.

I am fascinated by eschatology, but I never get in a row with anyone if I can help it. Most of us have fairly solid positions on the Rapture that no amount of discourse will change.

As I said before, I once considered seriously the pre-wrath position. I too have worried about a mass breakdown in the Church were the Anti-Christ to come along, sign the 7 year contract with Israel, leaving us all wondering what happened to the pre-trib Rapture, and causing many to lose faith at a crucial time.

I have explored my heart, and realized I could never take the mark. Fortunately, I have faced death, and found life to be less desirable than death under many circumstances. Indeed, I long to go home, but I won't stop my ministry until God ends it.

I don't believe that there will be a large underground that escapes the Anti-Christ, as portrayed in the Left Behind series. There will be a remnant of Jews, protected by God, and perhaps Messianic at that point. After all, what are the 144,000 Jewish men sealed for, if not evangelization?

Alas, I think that Lucifer is more than capable of rooting out all those who stand against him after the midpoint of the tribulation when he requires worship, and the taking of the mark.

If the Rapture did not happen by then, I see no point in it happening at all. Why should we be caught up at the last moment before Christ returns in glory? Seems rather silly, particularly since I don't see how to escape the 2nd half of the tribulation. I won't take the mark, and I don't believe that the Anti-Christ, and his demons will be sitting on their hands when Christians try to hide.

I liked the entire Left Behind series as fiction, and for the popularity of it that led many to Christ, due to the terrific preaching in it, but found the Anti-Christ represented there personally repulsive, but without much supernatural power, or even the simple ordinariness of evil. Think of how ordinarily the Germans blindly went about killing the Jews, and anyone else that inconvenienced them.

The reality of demons over-running the earth will, I fear, be a much darker situation than shown in the Left Behind series. Of course, had Tim LaHaye put in the real possibilities of evil, no one would have bought the books.

But since the final seven years of God's judgement against Israel is the time we call the tribulation, and God's wrath is against non-believing Jews, in particular, and non-believing Gentiles, secondarily, I feel that the whole period is a time of 'wrath'.

The Church being in a seperate covenant with God, and with a seperate destiny than Jacob, I place my hope in a pre-trib Rapture, but am prepared for just about anything.

For my hope, I keep going back to Jesus' words, as repeated by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If we are to meet Jesus in the air, how then can the Rapture not happen before we who live in the last days, are caught up to Him? I'd like a pre-trib Rapture, because it makes the most sense with the scriptures available to us, but I'll take any Rapture if it's before mid-Trib. And if there is none at all, I'll be taking it up with Jesus and Paul right after I refuse the mark!

Off topic, and not to quibble, I am a 'sis', not a 'bro', though with my name, how can you tell?

Blessings,

This is a long read but well worth it.

To Those Who Hold To A Pretribulation Rapture-You Are Correct!!
GOD BLESS THOSE WHO ARE TRULY IN UNDERSTANDING WITH THE WORD OF GOD HOLD TIGHT TO YOUR FAITH NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES PEOPLE MAY PUT YOU DOWN ---WE KNOW THE TRUTH!!!!!AND
I PRAY THOSE WHO DENY IT COME TO KNOW THE TRUTH...........

Nowhere in the Bible, can you find the word "rapture"

It amazes me that some folks write to me, questioning the validity of the rapture, simply because the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible.

With 1 Thes 4:16-18 giving us such a clear description of the rapture, you would have to conclude that some people are just playing games with the Word of God. I could change the name of my site to “Catching Up Ready” to satisfy these folks, but I hardly think that would improve things.

Their logic fails because there are a huge number of words that don't appear in the Bible, including the word "Bible." Because God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could truthfully say that no English words are in the Bible. Let's take a look at 1 Thes 4:16-18 in the original Greek:

4:16 oti autos o kurios en keleusmati en fwnh arcaggelou kai en salpiggi qeou katabhsetai ap ouranou kai oi nekroi en cristw anasthsontai prwton 4:17 epeita hmeis oi zwntes oi perileipomenoi ama sun autois arpaghsomeqa en nefelais eis apanthsin tou kuriou eis aera kai outws pantote sun kuriw esomeqa 4:18 wste parakaleite allhlous en tois logois toutois

I don't see the dead in Christ rising, Jesus descending from heaven, and us meeting Him in the air. So the cynics are right: the word "rapture" is nowhere to be found. All I see is gobbledygook.

For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapturo," which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes 4:17. You can call it the pre-trib rapture, the pre-trib rapturo, or the pre-trib caught up--it's all the same thing.

Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation.

Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, "Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation."

Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.

The Margaret MacDonald Origin

One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.

With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.

The Last Trumpet Argument

Because Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16, said believers would be raptured at the sounding of a trump, many folks have tried to make it appear that the rapture trumps are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Mat 24:31--which all occur during the tribulation.

When you have trumpets commonly used throughout the Bible, I think it's foolish to just assume any two of the 62 trumps or trumpets are prophetically related. To be able to make the claim that the tribulation trumpet soundings are the same as the rapture trumps, you would need a direct statement saying this is the case.

In the movies Ben-Hur and The Wizard of Oz, I recall hearing the sounding of trumpets. Are both these trumpets somehow prophetically related?

If your friend John said he went to his favorite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favorite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant? Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurants, they may have had two different eating establishments in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet.

With such a blind devotion to this one similarity, I have to wonder if these last-tumpeters are able to distinguish the difference between Tylenol and Exlax. They're both over-the-counter drugs, they come in pill form, and they can also be found in a medicine cabinet. Of course, one will make your headache disappear and the other will make your toilet paper disappear.

Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?

Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1:

1. Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."

2. According to 1 Cor 15:52, the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. Joel 2:1 says the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand. In order for Joel's trumpet to be the same one in 1 Cor. there would have to be a time delay between the sounding of the trumpet and the rapture of the Church.

3. The fact that there is another trumpet being sounded in Joel 2:15 further clouds the possibility that these trumpets could have anything to do with the rapture.

When Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he specifically said "the" last trump. During the Feast of Trumpets, the Jews **** short trumpet blasts. They end the feast with a long blast from what is called the last trump, which is blown the longest. Judaism has traditionally connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead. Paul also made the connection. For many Christians, the association between the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets is so strong, they look for the rapture to someday occur on this feast.

The Day of the Lord Argument

A number people have attempted to refute the pre-trib rapture by trying to associate the "Day of the Lord" with a catching-up of believers at the end of the tribulation. They base their rapture views solely on the idea that the "Day of the Lord" and the rapture are either synonymous or somehow linked together.

The Achilles heel of their argument has to be the notion that the "Day of the Lord" and various other "days" of an end-time context refers to a 24 hour period that occurs at or near the end of the tribulation. Probably the most commonly cited verse is 1 Thessalonians 5:2 where Paul tells us the "Day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night."

I've read countless articles that describe the "Day of the Lord" as Christ's advent at Armageddon. These articles go on to say that, because Paul also tells us the Lord will come "as a thief," we have a direct link to the same description that is applied to noted rapture verses.

It's rather obvious that those trying to rely on the "Day of the Lord" never bothered to validate the meaning of this particular day. I've checked a number of commentaries on the "Day of the Lord" and many of them define this as being an all-encompassing period that begins with the Great Tribulation. Let's examine some verses that clearly indicate that the term "day" is used to represent a broader time period.

II Peter 3:10-13
The "Day of the Lord" Peter spoke of in second Peter, cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign.

Joel 2:11-20
The "Day of the Lord" Joel describes, includes the defeat of the northern army. Ezk. 38 and 39 is parallel passage. Most scholars would time the destruction of the Gog army as occurring before in the first half of the tribulation.

John 12:48
In the book of John, Jesus uses the term "last day" to indicate when the lost would be judged. Rev 20 makes it clear that the unsaved will not be judged until after the millennium--yet another 1000 year gap.

Hebrews 10:25
One of the best indications that most of the various “day” references are citing a general time period can be found in Hebrews 10:25: "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

Surely, Paul would not be warning us to watch for a day that would be coming at the end of the tribulation. That type of logic would be like warning children, as they cross the road, to watch out for tail lights.

The First Resurrection

I've heard some folks say, "There cannot be a pre-trib rapture because to have one would require a second resurrection at Christ's return to earth." This conclusion is drawn from Revelation 20:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev 20:5-6).

One pre-trib writer, explaining this passage, said, "The first did not mean first in time, but rather first in kind." The first resurrection was for God's people the second will be for the unsaved.

A quick way to shoot down the notion that the first resurrection is tied to a specific date, as opposed to a more general time frame, is to take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. At the mid-point of the tribulation, the two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven (Rev 11:3-12).

Revelation chapter 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists just before the Beast issues his mark. Sometime during the latter half of the tribulation, Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of God.

Confusion over Confusion: 2 Thes 2:1-6

Because Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, said the Antichrist would be revealed before the Day of the Christ, post and pre-wrath adherents frequently try to cite this passage as one that refutes the pre-trib rapture.

To quell the Thessalonian's misunderstanding that they had somehow entered the tribulation, Paul told them the Antichrist must first be revealed. By telling them they had no reason to panic, Paul is clearly disputing the idea that the Thessalonians could someday find themselves facing the tribulation hour.

I'm constantly being irked by Post-trib and pre-wrath folks' consistent, or better yet deliberate, failure to accept the simple fact that the pre-trib doctrine calls for a rapture and a second coming. Because they only glean the prophetic word for one event--the second coming--they're unable to recognize pre-trib rapture passages.

Of course, when you fuse the two advents together, you end up with verses that appear to contradict each other: 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," and Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Reverse Logic Stuck In Reverse

Many people are against the pre-trib rapture simply because they see it as being the dominant view on the timing of Christ's return for the Church. The anti-pretribulationists often think they are the last remaining true believers. I'm simply dumbfounded over why some people choose rebellion against the majority view as their guide for finding truth.

The measurement of popularity alone is a terrible way to determine something's validity. It is particularly strange when people solely rely on the contrarian view to judge truth from fiction. I utilize contrarian views all the time to help determine what is truthful; however, it would be a terrible mistake on my part if I made Contrarianism the core foundation of any of my beliefs.

If you're using reverse logic, you need to support your conclusions. The vast majority of the population would agree that apples grow on apple trees and cherries grow on cheery trees. The pure novelty of the opposite being true does not in any way help make it so. Unless you see farmers gluing apples onto cherry trees or picking cherries from apple trees, you have no basis to think that these two fruits do not grow on anything but the trees that share the same name.

Some people are clearly more in love with the idea of a conspiracy than they are the truth. Every time an airplane crashes to the earth there's someone who will proclaim it was caused by anything from an act of terrorism to a bizarre government plot. It's just not exciting enough to say it was a mechanical problem that led to the crash.

The idea that the pre-trib rapture is the dominant view is not correct in the first place. Most evangelicals would say they look for a pre-trib rapture, but if you include all Christians, pretribulationists would rank third behind post-trib and preterist adherents.

Persecute Me Please

You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns.

Many Christians argue strongly for the right to suffer persecution at the hands of the Antichrist and the one world government. These tribulation saint wannabees constantly harp, "Because Jesus and His disciples suffered persecution, we should expect no better." It's been my experience that people with the weakest faith are generally the ones that talk the boldest. When the slightest difficulty comes their way, they cry to high heaven.

I hate to be the bearer of good news, but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).

In one regard, people who think the Church will go through the tribulation are somewhat correct. I believe there will be a huge number of "carnal Christians" that will find themselves left behind. By having the rapture before the tribulation, all those who find themselves facing the wrath of God will be without an excuse.

No Secret Rapture

"There is no secret rapture" is the beginning declaration of a large percentage of messages that attack the rapture. Rarely is this statement backed by supporting scriptural evidence. A few people will cite Rev 1:17, "every eye shall see him," as proof that the rapture will not be a secret event. Of course, I would immediately note that "every eye shall see him" is the second coming.

I have a hard time understanding how these folks could think pretribulationists preach a secret rapture. We seem to be doing our very best to popularize the rapture before it takes place. I doubt that, afterwards, with all the car wrecks, plane crashes, and missing persons reports, the rapture will remain a secret occurrence.

The only people I know who are attempting to keep the pre-trib rapture a secret are its critics. Pre-wrath and post-trib folks have the national media and the liberal churches as their allies in their ongoing effort to silence all knowledge of the "blessed hope."

No Imminency

Because an imminent or any moment rapture is one of the major teachings of pre-tribulationists, opponents of this view attempt to dismantle the imminency of the rapture.

Although Jesus said, "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Mat 24:42), advocates for knowing the "day" will claim this only applies to the unsaved. I hear arguments like, "Surely a loving father would tell his own children when he's coming for them."

To try to get around "no man know the hour," a popular scripture often cited is: "But yea brethren, are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thes 5:4).

Despite all their monkeying with scripture, pre-trib detractors just cannot escape Jesus' restriction against knowing the timing of the rapture. In fact, our Lord was so restrictive about the rapture, He said its occurrence would come as a total surprise. "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44).

Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn't be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring--the rapture and the second coming.

The Restrainer

In 2 Thessalonians the Apostle Paul speaks of a "he" that will restrain the advent of the Antichrist. The restrainer's removal is required before the Antichrist can be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

A debate has erupted over the identity of the Restrainer because if this "he" is the Holy Ghost, the only real explanation for his removal would be the rapture of the Church, which is indwelled by him. The strongest argument offered against the Holy Spirit being the Restrainer is the belief that if God's Spirit was ever removed from the earth, no one could then be saved. The removal of the Holy Ghost does not have to be an all or nothing proposition. I believe his being "taken out of the way" will only be a degree of removal.

Before the Church Age, people were able to find salvation, which obviously meant the Holy Spirit was at work on earth. When the outpouring of the Holy Ghost occurred at Pentecost, we didn't have a second Holy Spirit come to earth. His removal at the rapture will only be a reversal or ending of the Pentecostal outpouring.

Replacementism

Because Revelation places a strong emphasis on Israel during the tribulation, and not on the church, most post-tribulationists have adopted a replacement theology view in order to maintain the focus on them.

Replacementism is the view that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church. The Church is now seen as spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem. This teaching claims that all the promises and blessings, in fact Israel's entire inheritance, now belongs to the Church. However, all is not lost for Israel; it gets to keep all the curses.

Dispensational theology, taught by nearly all pre-tribulationists, teaches that God has separate strategies for dealing with the Church and the Jews. When you consider the change in focus, during the tribulation, from the Church to Israel, the pre-trib rapture provides a good explanation for this transfer of attention.

To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation. I look for people that hold to replacementism to be in the cheering section when the Beast goes on his Jew-killing campaign. "The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance" (Psalm 94:14).

"This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me'" (Jeremiah 31:35-36).

WWW.RAPTUREREADY.COM
GOD BLESS ALL MY FELLOW BORN AGAIN BRETHEREN IN CHRIST JESUS!

This was written by a great friend of mine, 777, he has been here for a short time.

In Christ: Phillip

Bro Ironman, this should be fun - finally figured out the quote/copy feature. I'm leaving in quotations from your reply to my post so that other's can follow the discourse. However, I had to leave out the (quotes). So much quoting won't fit on the same page.

1 * indent is the current article, 5 ***** indent is your last article; 10 ********** indent is my article to you before that.

I hope you read the post just before this one from me to you. I truly do not believe that anyone but the Holy Spirit can change anyone's position on this question, but isn't it fun trying?

IRONMAN wrote:
bro UniqueWebRev

*****i don't see the catching up of all the saints as being an event which will leave out those saints who are saved during the tribulation.

*If the Rapture were for all the saints, why does Jesus in Revelations tell John that there are many saints, martyred in the Tribulation, under the Throne of God, calling out for vengeance, and being told to wait a little longer for others to join them? This, if it were true for all saints, wipes out the Rapture question entirely, for presumably all true Christians will be killed when they refuse to take the mark. Of course, it leaves the question of what saints are left to be killed? That can only be those Jews, Messianic, or not, that are lured out of their place of safety by the wonderworkers, who presumably will deceive even the Elect. The only Elect of God are the Jews. The rest of us are grafted into Abraham through Jesus, but we do not become Jews.

*****i don't remember Christ telling the disciples to prepare for a secret rapture or to instruct any other saints to do the same.

*I've never been able to figure out who made up the idea of a secret Rapture. It won't be secret to us, and it won't be secret to those left behind, for we will be noticably missing.

*****now i believe what Paul is talking about the catching up of the saints to meet our Lord in the air is a reference to our Lord's final return.

*This would be difficult, since at the end of the tribulation, anyone, Jew or Gentile, who will not take the mark, will be dead. Instead, the scriptures describe a mass of saints coming back with Jesus at the time He returns, setting foot on the Mount of Olives.

*****why would God take out the saints at the time when the world needs them most?

*The Rapture is a reward for those that fight on to the last minute to maintain a witness for Jesus, despite the difficulties they must go through. People are being killed in other counties daily right now for just talking about Christ. Thost that are alive when Christ comes will have not had an easy time of it, not even here in America. I don't think that many Christians will be killed in America over the Gospel prior to the Rapture, but I fully expect imprisonment over preaching Roman's 1:19. It's already been tried in America, and is a fact in Canada and Australia.

*****if God's wrath is to be poured out on the world, why should there be no saint to continue to bring men to salvation? clearly many will be saved during those days and has God not always sent His men and women forth with the gospel?

*First of all, there will be 144,000 Messianic Jews out preaching, and just like the apostles, they will preach first to the Jew, and then to any Gentiles hanging around. In addition, the fact alone of the Rapture will turn a lot of Laodicean Christians into being on fire for God. I believe they will die for their late coming to true faith in Jesus, refusing the mark, and through suffering the various Judgements, but they will evangelize many as well.

*****i have no problem with the rapture or the concept of it. it is quite valid because we will indeed be swept up in the clouds to meet Him. my issue is with the way it is taught, that the saints will be swept up without a hitch.

*This would only be true if all Christians, even those that are back slidden and lukewarm were to be Raptured as well. I truely fear they will not be, because the protection from wrath is a gift given because the Philadelphians, though of little faith, were still pressing onward.

*****the issue is that many saints at present seem to be resting on their laurels expecting to be caught away and so have no sense of urgency for doing anything for God. that is my concern. perhaps it is invalid but it seems to me that there is a lot of dirt we as the Church need to be purged of if we're to get into our rapture clothes.

*We are all only righteous through Jesus, but those that are resting on their laurels will have a drastic awakening when perhaps at most 8% of the Church is Raptured. I only use that percentage, because that is the percentage of Christians who tithe, and I won't say that all of them are included. Many people tithe through habit. The passage in Revelations about the Church of Philadelphia denotes that the Christians who will be saved from the temptation to come are working at being better Christians at the least, and supporting those who are evangelizing now, not to mention the fact that they might be walking a great walk before others as their witness.

The passage reads;'KJV Rev 3:7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

**********I believe that the Bible is inerrant, or completely without merit. God either meant this or He didn't, just as the Ressurrection either happened, or it didn't, and we are living a lie.

*****i agree, no argument from me there.

*If you believe the Bible inerrant, then what Jesus says, what Paul says, what every Rapture passage says must be true. After you kick out all the Tribulation Saints, there is no one left to be saved, except the Jews under God's protection. Everone else has taken Lucifer's side, or died. That means that a post-trib Rapture could only be for the Protected Jews, and they are the ones that walk into the millenium, and repopulate the earth.

Why, indeed, then speak of a Mystery at all, as Paul calls it, to Gentiles, if it is not before the tribulation? Why a promise to Phiadelphian Saints that they won't have to undergo the temptation that is foreordained to come upon the entire earth?

*****the concept of the rapture as we know it is something which was not believed in the early Church.

*Not so. The doctrine of imminency was preached to the 1st century Church. Paul was preaching it. As for the Rapture being a recent notion, you're behind on your archeology.

In 1997, a sermon, by a Syrian Priest called Ephraem, was discovered at a monestery by Grant Jeffrey, the Canadian Phophecy Scholar. The discovery is called Psuedo-Ephraem, a sermon purporting to be written by Ephraem of Nisibus,(306-73), of the Syrian Orthodox Church. No one can tell if it is by Ephraem of Nisibis, but the latest date possible is in the 800's, prior to Mohammad, and the rise of Islam, due to the content of the Sermon.

Also, way before Darby was Morgan Edwards, a Welsh Baptist preacher from 1738. Edwards taught a pre-trib theory, that although was not as well thought out as Darby's, still precedes him.

*****Christ spoke to His disciples as though they would have to endure the great troubles which were coming, and they did. do you think that it will be any different for us who are the terminal generation? Jesus suffered for our sake and somehow i don't think that the world will be better to us than it was to Him;

*Tribulation, including torture and death have not stopped since Jesus' death on the cross. But to a Christian, who is sure of his salvation, it is possible to endure, for we are not afraid of the effect of death. We know we will be with Jesus. To a Jew or Gentile that barely believes there is a God, these tribulations will seem terrible, not to mention that the supernatural nature of many of the Judgements are going to be really hard to live through, if you live at all.

I think of how hard it is to endure the fear and anguish I sense now in the world...how much worse will it be then?

*****saints all over the world suffer for His sake, do you think that we here who are not presently suffering as others are in prisons and so on will escape or that we deserve any different? i don't, maybe i am wrong. maybe you are.

*I think things will get very tough for true Christians, which is what will cause the great falling away that is already beginning. And the current falling away is due to only to scorn, mockery, inconvenince, at least in America. As I said, being American, I don't expect execution before the Rapture, but I am well aware of the possibility of prison.

I don't like it, but I know it will come. I knew it when I was ordained last year, and had to fight my fears to become an evangelist. But Jesus called. I couldn't say no.

**********Please, search it out, pray it through, and then pray for 'the Blessed Hope', that as we are not disappointed in Jesus, neither will we be in the 'Mystery' that is not made clear all in one place, but must be put together like a puzzle from many concepts, prophecies, and statements all over the Bible.

*****i look forward to the blessed hope of one day soon meeting our Lord in the skies. i know however (maybe this has something to do with how i feel about this) that my end will not be very nice. my rapture will be death for the gospel.

*Your death, and mine, may be fearsome, at least in the manner of it, since we wake from death to be with Jesus. Nothing will stop the Word, only our portion in it. The most blessed thing about tribulation is how quickly the blood of Saints waters new belief. Ours is the only sytem of belief worth living for more than it is worth dying for, yet dying for it is worth while as well.

*****i bless God for it though because the blood of the martyrs continues to make suit before God until the judgment is done. i figure though that what Darby calls the rapture is a twisted view of what Paul was talking about, namely the gathering together of all the saints at the Second coming. Th evidences to support Darby's view are largely based on his own feelings on the subject and so the supporting scriptures are viewed in that light.

*Forget Darby - he was not the first to preach a pre-trib Rapture. That honor belongs to Jesus to Paul,in 1 Corinthians 15:42-58, then Jesus to John, in Rev. 3:10.

*****i thank you for your concern and as our Lord leads you to, pray for enlightenment for me and for yourself also.

*I merely want you to live in hope, not in the anguished despair for others that presses on all of us who sense the Holy Spirit, and the pressure of the end of days.

I will pray for you. Do you likewise for me.

**********Do you not want the Rapture to be true?

*****i know it to be true, i just don't believe that it will happen the way it is commonly taught and believed.

**********Or is there something else that keeps you from resting in my greatest hope?

*****no, not at all. my concern is that when we are called to suffer which will be soon, many saints will be looking for a rapture and it will not come and will fall away from the Faith on that account.

bro, the bottom line is if i'm wrong, God will straighten it out and we'll be swept up. if you're wrong however as far as the timing of the rapture and a lot of saints who thought there would be no suffering like in the days of old get hit with the pain, there are going to be a lot of mad saints...Whether we are here during the trib or not is at the end of the day no big deal because GOd's grace is sufficient. i'm not going to break fellowship with you or anyone about this. God will work it all out in the end.

*As I said before, I pray for the Rapture to be pre-trib. Pre-wrath, after that, would suffice, as long as it is before choosing death or the mark of the beast.

I believe that the teaching of the Rapture was given to us to be a comfort, not a source of fear or dispute, but the Evil One uses it so. For it is we who care now, and are trying now, to reach others, that are hurting for the world.

I do not wish anyone to have a false hope, or a partially wrong one. I believe, however, that there is no point for a rapture at all unless it is pre-trib, and no real comfort from any other position. But I am ready for anything that God decrees, and I pray for the grace to receive it in joy.

Your sister in Christ,

Forrest Anderson

Christinyou, my post, then your post, then my second post to Ironman makes it look as if we're beating up on the poor guy!

Bro Ironman, please believe me that this is a God Thing, not a coordinated assault on you, simply because I want you so much to be in the same comfort I am in.

Forgive me for being too passionate, instead of compassionate!

bro Staff

staff wrote:
Hi Ironman,
I can go with what your saying on purging.
Jesus described John as a Friend of The Bridegroom;My Understanding is that he had to help get the Bride ready.Perhaps a future Elijah will help get the bride ready by bringing a purging or a judgement or/and a repentance.
As to the timing of this purging, it will have to be before the rapture or his Second coming(depending on your belief,altough one has to be correct)because it will be too late afterward!
Rgds Staff

we are agreed on the purging part so we can both expect it. praise God for that. not sure if it will be through the trib or before it (not that it matters to me anyway) but i know it is coming.

God bless

ok Sis UWR
you should have said something sooner! here i am thinking you're a bro and i've been calling you that. forgive me dear sister.

I was only troubled because I felt there was some confusion in your heart.

actually there is no confusion in my heart about all this. we will be raptured some kinda way at some point and i don't think it will be without a purging first. now the purging may well be through the trib or it may not be. that part i'm unsure of and really it doesn't matter. i know how i'll leave this place, as a martyr, that is my rapture and will be for many other saints as it has been in the past.

As I said before, I once considered seriously the pre-wrath position. I too have worried about a mass breakdown in the Church were the Anti-Christ to come along, sign the 7 year contract with Israel, leaving us all wondering what happened to the pre-trib Rapture, and causing many to lose faith at a crucial time.

if our faith is in that God will spare us trouble, we have missed the mark. our faith should be that God will hold us up irrespective of what is going on around us. if anybody loses faith because they hit some trials, then somebody has failed to let them know what being a Christian is about, or they themself have failed. God carried Peter, Paul, and all the others through their persecutions, if this is your lot, can He not do the same?

I have explored my heart, and realized I could never take the mark. Fortunately, I have faced death, and found life to be less desirable than death under many circumstances. Indeed, I long to go home, but I won't stop my ministry until God ends it.

If the Rapture did not happen by then, I see no point in it happening at all. Why should we be caught up at the last moment before Christ returns in glory? Seems rather silly, particularly since I don't see how to escape the 2nd half of the tribulation. I won't take the mark, and I don't believe that the Anti-Christ, and his demons will be sitting on their hands when Christians try to hide.

well i could argue that it seems silly to me to assume Christ will come to the clouds, stop, pick us up and then come back again later on. the only mention of Christ coming to the clouds is when He returns the last time.

I don't believe that there will be a large underground that escapes the Anti-Christ, as portrayed in the Left Behind series. There will be a remnant of Jews, protected by God, and perhaps Messianic at that point. After all, what are the 144,000 Jewish men sealed for, if not evangelization?

i think that there will be. see, there is indeed the 144000 from the 12 tribes, but there is also 144000 vigin men from among the gentiles also who follow the lamb wherever He goes. these are the firstfruits of the harvest of the earth. now there will be people being saved all the way till He comes back.

Alas, I think that Lucifer is more than capable of rooting out all those who stand against him after the midpoint of the tribulation when he requires worship, and the taking of the mark.

well not likely but he will for sure take a whack at it big time. now these ones who refuse to take the mark (and the Revelation does say there will be some who refuse it) will die for it and these are the ones who will rule with Christ 1000 yrs with the other martyrs from the ages. Then after the 1000 yrs, the rest of the dead in Christ will rise. it would be a wondrous thing to be in the number of those who are a part of the first resurrection because the second death has no power over them.

If the Rapture did not happen by then, I see no point in it happening at all. Why should we be caught up at the last moment before Christ returns in glory? Seems rather silly, particularly since I don't see how to escape the 2nd half of the tribulation. I won't take the mark, and I don't believe that the Anti-Christ, and his demons will be sitting on their hands when Christians try to hide.

if you're only concerned about escaping trial, man i can't help you out there really except to say God's grace is sufficient and it always has been. i'm not worried about what will happen to me because i know that whatever i suffer, God's grace will be sufficient for me to testify to His grace and mercy that souls would be saved to His glory. of course the enemy will be on the rampage against whatever Christians are left, so what? if you are there and you don't take the mark, chances are you will be killed...what's wrong with that? you know there is a martyr's crown for that and the added benefit per Revelation 20 of ruling with Christ for 1000 yrs and not being subject to the lake of fire when it's all done? i got one word for that, AWESOME!!!i'm all for it, where do i sign up?!?! :-D

But since the final seven years of God's judgement against Israel is the time we call the tribulation, and God's wrath is against non-believing Jews, in particular, and non-believing Gentiles, secondarily, I feel that the whole period is a time of 'wrath'.

exactly, which is why if the Church is here it's all good because God's not going to be beating up on the Church! the enemy will be however, let's be sure of that. it's wrath against the enemy and his minions (human) and it is an opportunity still for them to repent. praise God for that.

The Church being in a seperate covenant with God, and with a seperate destiny than Jacob, I place my hope in a pre-trib Rapture, but am prepared for just about anything.

true. and i am glad you're repared for anything. me too!

If we are to meet Jesus in the air, how then can the Rapture not happen before we who live in the last days, are caught up to Him? I'd like a pre-trib Rapture, because it makes the most sense with the scriptures available to us, but I'll take any Rapture if it's before mid-Trib. And if there is none at all, I'll be taking it up with Jesus and Paul right after I refuse the mark!

well we can be caught up to meet Him in the clouds to welcome Him back no? not everyone will die at the hands of the enemy in those days. those who are yet alive, will become immortal right then.

Off topic, and not to quibble, I am a 'sis', not a 'bro', though with my name, how can you tell?

and i rest my case! :-P

sis UWR

*If the Rapture were for all the saints, why does Jesus in Revelations tell John that there are many saints, martyred in the Tribulation, under the Throne of God, calling out for vengeance, and being told to wait a little longer for others to join them? This, if it were true for all saints, wipes out the Rapture question entirely, for presumably all true Christians will be killed when they refuse to take the mark. Of course, it leaves the question of what saints are left to be killed? That can only be those Jews, Messianic, or not, that are lured out of their place of safety by the wonderworkers, who presumably will deceive even the Elect. The only Elect of God are the Jews. The rest of us are grafted into Abraham through Jesus, but we do not become Jews.

first of all, the saints (martyrs) who are crying out to God are not told to wait to join the others. they are in heaven already, they are waiting for the judgement to fall on the world and this is what they are told to wait a little longer. they are waiting for vengeance to be exacted for the shedding of their blood. i don't think every Christian will die at the hands of the enemy, i think that some will be alive till He returns. the word says that they would be able to deceive even the elect, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE. the elect unclude both Jew and Gentile. Paul was sent to the gentiles and spoke to them calling them the elect so obviously the elect is not a reference to Jews only. we see however the working of election in Jacob and Esau, and in Isaac and Ishmael.

I've never been able to figure out who made up the idea of a secret Rapture. It won't be secret to us, and it won't be secret to those left behind, for we will be noticably missing.

so how come everyone who says this rapture can happen any time says it will be like a thief in the night if it won't be so secret to us? :-? or am i missing something here?

This would be difficult, since at the end of the tribulation, anyone, Jew or Gentile, who will not take the mark, will be dead. Instead, the scriptures describe a mass of saints coming back with Jesus at the time He returns, setting foot on the Mount of Olives.

not so because not every saint will be killed. also Paul speaks of those who would be present/alive at the return of our Lord here:

[b]13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[/b]

[i][b]15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent F10 them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[/b][/i]

is this not the second coming of Christ? and is the rising of the dead in Christ here not the same as the first resurrection mentioned in the revelation in reference to the martyrs?

The Rapture is a reward for those that fight on to the last minute to maintain a witness for Jesus, despite the difficulties they must go through. People are being killed in other counties daily right now for just talking about Christ. Thost that are alive when Christ comes will have not had an easy time of it, not even here in America. I don't think that many Christians will be killed in America over the Gospel prior to the Rapture, but I fully expect imprisonment over preaching Roman's 1:19. It's already been tried in America, and is a fact in Canada and Australia.

well, i don't think America will be exempt from giving up her fair share of martyrs. America will not be the same nation we know today, say a year from now.

First of all, there will be 144,000 Messianic Jews out preaching, and just like the apostles, they will preach first to the Jew, and then to any Gentiles hanging around. In addition, the fact alone of the Rapture will turn a lot of Laodicean Christians into being on fire for God. I believe they will die for their late coming to true faith in Jesus, refusing the mark, and through suffering the various Judgements, but they will evangelize many as well.

i have heard it said that we are the Laodicean Church, if this is so, then doesn't this mean that we'll get left behind to be set alight anew? :-?

This would only be true if all Christians, even those that are back slidden and lukewarm were to be Raptured as well. I truely fear they will not be, because the protection from wrath is a gift given because the Philadelphians, though of little faith, were still pressing onward.

ok, but that promise was given only to the Philadelphians, not even Smyrna got such a guarantee and she was without rebuke like Philadelphia. if this is accurate then a smaller percentage of people will be raptured, say 1 out of 7?

We are all only righteous through Jesus, but those that are resting on their laurels will have a drastic awakening when perhaps at most 8% of the Church is Raptured. I only use that percentage, because that is the percentage of Christians who tithe, and I won't say that all of them are included. Many people tithe through habit. The passage in Revelations about the Church of Philadelphia denotes that the Christians who will be saved from the temptation to come are working at being better Christians at the least, and supporting those who are evangelizing now, not to mention the fact that they might be walking a great walk before others as their witness.

tithe? the N.T. Church didn't tithe...someone show me where the N.T. Church tithed...see the tithe was to tend to the levites in Judaism, they had no time to till the land or do the other things everyone else did so the other tribes supported them. now the tithe has even deeper roots than that (Abraham to Mechizedek) but in the context of a congregation (israel vs the Church) in the Church we have no such thing equivelent to the Levitical priesthood that we need to so support. now the N.T. Church did bring money together to tend to those in need and to share so that everyone had enough. that's not a tithe. but then again you could be talking about tithing in this sense. anywho the greek word for keeping from tribulation in the case of the Phladelphian Church speaks really to being carried through rather than being taken out of.

If you believe the Bible inerrant, then what Jesus says, what Paul says, what every Rapture passage says must be true. After you kick out all the Tribulation Saints, there is no one left to be saved, except the Jews under God's protection. Everone else has taken Lucifer's side, or died. That means that a post-trib Rapture could only be for the Protected Jews, and they are the ones that walk into the millenium, and repopulate the earth.

there will be no Jews under God's protection unless they are under the blood of Christ. this means that the trib saints include those who were Jews and didn't believe in Christ as the messiah but have begun to believe. to be a Jew outside of Christ's blood means ending up in the lake of fire. there are no exceptions, there will be many good Jews in hell, many good muslims, bhuddists etc also, apart from Christ, there is only the lake of fire for EVERYONE and ANYONE.

I think things will get very tough for true Christians, which is what will cause the great falling away that is already beginning. And the current falling away is due to only to scorn, mockery, inconvenince, at least in America. As I said, being American, I don't expect execution before the Rapture, but I am well aware of the possibility of prison.

i agree with you on the great falling away. why don't you expect execution because you're American? i see execution for me, God made that plain from the beginning in case i had any jitters.

As I said before, I pray for the Rapture to be pre-trib. Pre-wrath, after that, would suffice, as long as it is before choosing death or the mark of the beast.

ok cool, i have to ask, are you afraid that you would take the mark rather than death? do you value your life now more than the life which will come after you're dead on this side? i know i don't. if i had the choice now i'd be outta here, but there is much yet to do so i'll be here a while. i know for sure i'm not taking that mark. if it is because of that i get executed, then ill join the martyrs under the throne saying "HOW LONG OH SOVERIGN LORD!!!" i'll be in good company, Paul, Peter, James, Polycarp and a bunch of others!

I do not wish anyone to have a false hope, or a partially wrong one. I believe, however, that there is no point for a rapture at all unless it is pre-trib, and no real comfort from any other position. But I am ready for anything that God decrees, and I pray for the grace to receive it in joy.

i agree, neither do i. i don't think the hope of the rapture is in any way shape or form diminished if it isn't pre-trib. to me it makes no difference. the point of the rapture is that we will be with Him. the circumstances surrounding that union may be gruesome, they may not be. the thing is IT DOESN'T MATTER, we will be with HIM! that is the rapture.

Forrest is a cool name, i only ever heard it used for boys though, you're the first girl, well woman i have met with that name. :-D

God bless

Sis UWR
by the way when you respond, on top of the box you type in the text, there are some buttons. one of them is "quote" and it's next to "email" press that and it will pull up a little window in which you can paste a piece of text from whoever you are responding to. be sure though to copy the piece of text before pressing the quote button.anyway paste the text in and click ok and it will appear in the space you're typing the response in.

oh don't worry about it, i know this isn't a coordinated thing on your part. trust me sister i've been knocked about a few times on these boards and i bless God for it. it is being buffetted and being pushed closer to Him lest a rely on my own strength. i still need to go through the post from Christinyou though. it's about 1 a.m. and it's sleepy time.

i guess my real thing is that we as the saints should expect to be chastened before we leave here be it pre, mid or post trib since we are sorely in need of it. that is really the point i'm trying to make.

Bro Ironman,

You are so much fun, but trying to get you to respond to what I thought I said seems to be difficult. You are as slippery as an eel! I'll have to try harder!!!

Many Blessings,

Your Sis.

P.S. I'll get back to you, quote by quote, to explain what I thought I said, but that will take a little time, and I've already stayed up all night having fun. Now I have to catch a few hours, or I won't be able to think later today!

sis UWR

You are so much fun, but trying to get you to respond to what I thought I said seems to be difficult. You are as slippery as an eel! I'll have to try harder!!!

well i'm not sure of that's a compliment... :-? but i do see what you're saying, and responded to it as best i can.

Good article caused me to think a little bit. Great stuff.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Titus 2:13-15 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

"Peculiar People"? "being beyond usual" Strongs.

"Ye must be born again"? John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

"Peculiar People" John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Born of the Living Water Himself, by His Spirit that is in us. "Peculiar People" I guess!

This is the "Blessed Hope". Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ, not just a salutation, but a FACT.

Phillip

brethren
ultimately i don't think it's of any consequence where we place the rapture. the thing is, we as the Church are in much need of purging and even if the rapture is pre-trib, we have to be ready for that. i fear that most saints are not expecting any sort of cleansing at the hand of God by His fire. if God tried Israel by fire, surely we will also be tried in a similar manner.

let us not be caught unawares...

Was not Jesus Christ tried at the Cross for those that believe and are Christians.
That is Christ-ones, who were first call Christians in Antioch.

hey sis Jeanette

However, you are mistaken in thinking (I did too until someone pointed it out)that "if it were possible" means that its not possible for "the elect" to be deceived. The English translation is misleading because to us "if possible" means its impossible, but in the original its literally "if able". In other words, if we are able to be deceived, then we will be!

i don't think that we will always be deceived even if it is possible. can we be deceived? sure we can but if we are diligent in following Him, we avoid such. Also in John 6 vs 39 the word says:

[b]39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.[/b]

Which means that we can't be ripped from Christ's hand. does this mean we kick back? no, actually the opposite, it means we strive to get closer to Him because we know we can't be taken from Him. it is foolish for us to think that we can't be deceived because we can be if we stray from Him. so let us not stray from Him.

Compliments wrote:

Why is the Rapture called the Blessed Hope?

Blessed means, per Elwell's thological Dictionary:

Text: The verbs so translated in the OT and the NT respectively are barak and eulogeo. Both have the meaning "to pronounce blessed," but the primary meaning of the former is to convey a gift by a potent utterance. (An overpowering, divine utterance.)

The Rapture, or harpazo, as it is known in the original Greek, means 'a catching away', or actually, 'vanishing'. This is a 'Hope' that is conditional, for we who look for such deliverance must watch for the Rapture; pray to be worthy (through Jesus, of course) of being included; by our faith being illustrated in works that bear fruit, signifying spiritual growth; and our prayers that we will receive the special gift given by divine ordinance due to our extra effort towards holiness.

Salvation is also a 'Blessed Hope'. This gift is conditional on far less that the Rapture is, for if we do but place our belief and trust in Jesus, ask Him into our lives, and work with the Holy Spirit to follow after Jesus, we can have Salvation with Jesus in Eternity, but also Victory on earth now!

Why does Salvation carry a lesser condition? To be saved you can 'coast' a good deal more, and still, by your true belief in Jesus, and a little effort, live in Eternity with Jesus. You will live without much reward in heaven, I fear, and you will not live in Victory here on earth, but your salvation is assured. And on top of that, the Holy Spirit will work in you to transform you anyway. The key to the rewards in heaven, and participation in the Rapture is whether you work with the Holy Spirit or not.

If you work on your walk with Jesus, you get not only Victory here on earth, but The Rapture as a special blessing, a special 'gift' given to those that really try to walk in Jesus's footsteps. That we all fail is irrelevant.

It is the intensity of our struggle that enables us to receive Victory on earth, the Crowns, and other rewards in heaven, and the special gift of the Rapture. This is why the other churches in Revelations, unless they are also Philadelphian in nature, such as Thyratira, the persecuted Church, will most likely be left out of the Rapture, causing the great falling away of the church. It will also create a great mass of Tribulation martyrs, as Laodicean's become Philadelphian's immediately after the Rapture.

Hope means per Elwells Thological Dictionary:

Text: The verbs so translated in the OT and the NT respectively is elpis.

Elpis is a collective hope in the body of Christ. The Thessalonians are exhorted to hope for reunion with their deceased brethren (I Thess. 4:13-18), and ministers hope for their converts (II Cor. 1:7), desiring to present them perfect (Col. 1:28). Christ as the chief Shepherd expresses this hope that his own will together behold his glory (John 17:24), and this consummation is guaranteed by the earnest of the Spirit within Christian hearts and the church (Rom. 8:16-17).(Upon conversion, baptism in water, and the Holy Spirit)

Christ himself is described as the Christian hope (I Tim. 1:1), and by his resurrection the specifically Christian virtue of hope is bestowed on the regenerate, who abound in hope through the Spirit (Rom. 15:13). (1) This hope relates to salvation and is an essential grace, like faith and love (I Cor. 13:13); but where faith refers to past and present, hope includes the future (Rom. 8:24-25).

The Rapture is a specific revelation given first to Paul in KJV 1 Cor. 15:51.
[color=CC3300]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.[/color]

The conditions for the Rapture were no doubt preached frequently by Paul, for the 1st Century Church lived in the constant belief in the imminency of Jesus' return, but the explanations for many subjects didn't always make it into the letters to the Churches by Paul, for Paul often spoke in his letters to the Churches of how he had explained all these matters when he was with them.

As if to clarify the matter, in Revelations 3:7, Jesus told John to write to the Churches in Asia, as they were to evidently not only be the examples of how the church ages would pass from one age to another, but also, what type of Christians each type of Church member would be like, and what would be their reward.

To all overcomers is given salvation, but to those that press onward toward discipleship in Jesus is a special reward, a gift, that those who continued on, no matter how little their faith, but if they were watchful in all matters that Jesus spoke of in all the parables, wherein is the basis for most of our teaching in Jesus, they would escape the 'temptation' that was to come upon all the earth as a special gift for faithfulness.

[color=CC3300] KJV Revelations 3:7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/color]

Our salvation is a gift, a 'Blessed Hope'. So is the Rapture.

Blessings,

LittleGift wrote:
Ironman said:

the word says that they would be able to deceive even the elect, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE.

Just a quick comment (to go through the recent to-and-fro argument is going to take a while - if I do get around to it :-)

Bro, I think I mostly agree with you on the Rapture, (at this stage it has got so confusing that I'm not sure any more who believes what on this thread :-? )

However, you are mistaken in thinking (I did too until someone pointed it out)that "if it were possible" means that its [i]not[/i] possible for "the elect" to be deceived. The English translation is misleading because to us "if possible" means its impossible, but in the original its literally "if able". In other words, if we are [i]able[/i] to be deceived, then we will be!

Not a happy thought but one that should make us cling closer to the Lord in these days that can be so confusing, as well as deceptive, if we don't.

Again, emphasises the need to be ready for "whenever".

Jeannette

I agree about the need for readiness, for if we are ready, we will not be deceived, and the Rapture, whenever it comes, will not find us wanting.

As to who believes what at this point, it is difficult to keep up, but I think that regardless of the timing, as to pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib, or post-trib, If we're working on our walk, God will enable us to handle anything.

Many Blessings,

IRONMAN wrote:
brethren
ultimately i don't think it's of any consequence where we place the rapture. the thing is, we as the Church are in much need of purging and even if the rapture is pre-trib, we have to be ready for that. i fear that most saints are not expecting any sort of cleansing at the hand of God by His fire. if God tried Israel by fire, surely we will also be tried in a similar manner.

let us not be caught unawares...

Bro Ironman,

I do agree about the need for a trial of the Church Corporate. I sense you are tiring a bit of the topic of the Rapture, but for the instruction of others, this topic cannot be discussed too much. Besides, if we keep it short, and get into some of the details, we can still have fun!

Besides, as a pre-tribber, I want you to have my comfort in my belief on the general timing of the Rapture.

You have sounded quite in despair over your guaranteed end prior to the Rapture. Why?
Have you had a vision? Are you ill? Are you ancient? Are you concerned that your length of ministry will not be enough? Or are you just aware, as I am, that persecution will come to the US? Please tell us so we can pray for you.

When we face Jesus, we are all going to feel that we did virtually nothing! Blessedly, Jesus already knows what we will do, and has each seed sown and watered per His requirements. I already feel quite sick over my late start into ministry, my impoverished spiritual life, and my out of control, undisciplined life that I have not made much progress on. But I press on, knowing that Jesus knew me, and still chose to die for me. And with His help, and the Holy Spirit, I do make tiny bits of progress, and that's enough for me to keep trying.

By the by, you asked me in a previous post why I thought I would not be physically persecuted in America. Oh, I expect it. I don't expect death because I have had the blessing of hearing the Shofar of the Rapture in the distance, as if over a hill, and some distance away, but not so far away that it is beyond my lifetime, and I'm only 52 (in May). I know it sounds a bit extreme, but it's true none the less.

I do expect lawsuits, confiscation of property, and jail in the future if the Lord tarries, because I will preach Romans 1:19 whether it is against the law, or not. And it will be.

Google 'Bible Banned' - it is downright scary on what has already been tried in the US.

I'll start getting back to your past posts, section by section, and line by line, since you are such a clever, sneaky and slippery writer. If I try to do the entire posts, it will take up pages and bore everyone to death, but a little at a time will suffice over a period of time.

Many Blessings from your Sis,

John173 wrote:

[color=000099]Rev 3:7-13 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. [i][b]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[/b][/i] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. [/color]

[color=660033] Rev 3:14-22 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/color]

It is true that the seven churches represent seven ages in history. However, these churches have not all disappeared after the next appears. One of them represents Roman catholicism, and they are certainly amongst us today. The Philadelphian church is still with us today as well, she just isn't the most visible. Especially here in America, the vast majority of churches (non-catholic) fall into the Laodicean category.

Note that the Philadelphian church shall be kept from the day of temptation (trial). Also of note, this church is one of only two that the Lord did not rebuke. I truly believe that the true church as represented by the Philadelpians will be raptured before the tribulation. This is a warning to us all. We must examine our hearts and be sure we belong in this "faithful remnant" and not in the deceived Laodicean batch.

Thus you have the inerrent interpretation of scripture as taught by Doug :-)

Well, OK, there you have my take on the matter. Food for thought.

In His Love,

Doug

Blessings,