Israel

I've written and erased , rewritten and erased, and I just have to say this in the Leading of the Lord, just pray for Israel.

Thats all I want to ask or say.

Pray for the safety of Israel.

Praying.

Security and defense: Catch a falling nuke

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Yaakov Katz, THE JERUSALEM POST Feb. 15, 2007

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This is the year of the missile in the Middle East. Everyone is launching and testing missiles, and flexing their muscles in defiance of the rest of the region and the world.

Two weeks ago, it was the Iranians who put on a massive military display during the largest missile maneuver since the United Nations imposed sanctions on the Islamic Republic in December. Overseen by Revolutionary Guards commander Gen. Yahya Rahim Safavi - who used the event to threaten to destroy Israel - the Iranians tested their Zalzal-1 and Fajr-5 missiles, which are also back in the hands of Hizbullah and capable of wreaking destruction as far south as Tel Aviv.

A week later, it was Syria's turn: Damascus tested the advanced Scud-D. The missile, which was detected by Israeli radar systems, reportedly flew for several hundred kilometers and landed near its target.

This week, it was Israel's turn, with the successful 15th test of the Arrow 2 missile defense system. Launched Sunday night from the IAF's Palmahim base, the Arrow intercepted a missile impersonating an Iranian Shihab-3 carrying a nuclear warhead.

While defense officials went out of their way to stress that the missile test was conducted as part of the routine development of the system, the message Israel sent to Iran and Syria was clear: You can successfully fire your missiles; we can successfully intercept them.

It is only February, and already three of the major players in the region have tested their missiles. This is just the beginning, however. Israel plans additional Arrow launches throughout the year as it continues to upgrade the defense system to stay ahead of Iran's developments to its Shihab missile series. Israel is also considering deploying additional Arrow batteries - including in the North and the South.

There is also now increased talk of exporting the Arrow to other countries, particularly South Korea, a strong ally of the US under an existential missile threat from North Korea.

THE ARROW is the pride and joy of its manufacturers at Israel Aerospace Industries. It is the only operational missile defense system in the world. Even the Americans are behind Israel and have only recently begun deployment of the Aegis ballistic missile defense destroyer. The US has also announced plans to station a missile interceptor in Poland and its accompanying radar system in the Czech Republic.

"There is a missile race in the Middle East," explained a top defense official. "It is our job to stay on top and to make sure that we develop our defenses more quickly than our enemies develop their missiles."

Developed as an answer to Saddam Hussein's Scuds - like the ones that hit during the Gulf War - the Arrow is today far more advanced than initially planned and it has the world's attention. But the fact that Israel has the defensive capabilities does not mean it is not preparing for an offensive step against Iran - one that could include a strike against its nuclear sites.

WHILE PRESIDENT George W. Bush reiterated this week that an American attack on Iran would be a "last resort," senior officials in Tel Aviv spoke with interest of the American leader's latest decision to appoint Adm. William Fallon commander of the US armed forces' Central Command based in Qatar.

While Fallon, former head of the Pacific Command, will be the supreme commander of America's war in Iraq, he will also be in charge of a military operation against Iran, if one is launched. The Israeli officials pointed to the seemingly coincidental timing of a naval officer's appointment to CENTCOM - traditionally a position for an army or Marine Corps officer - and the recent decision to send a second battle group, led by the aircraft carrier USS John Stennis, to the Persian Gulf to support the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower.

"If Bush is planning something, he is certainly getting ready for it," was one official's description.

Dr. Eran Lerman, director of the Israel/Middle East office of the American Jewish Committee and a former senior IDF intelligence analyst, had a similar read on the US military buildup in the region. During a conference at Tel Aviv University last week, Lerman said that the additional ships and the appointment of Fallon indicated that America was considering imposing a sea blockade on Iran, a move he said could prove to be more effective than the UN sanctions currently imposed on Teheran.

With all the missile tests and Iranian maneuvers going on, Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi, who took up his new post as chief of General Staff on Wednesday, will not even merit a single moment of grace. He will have to oversee the increased training in the IDF, create his new General Staff and prepare for possible conflicts with Hizbullah, Syria, the Palestinians and a possible strike on Iran.

Former IAF commander David Ivry once said that the most difficult step during the preparations for Operation Opera - the successful IAF air strike on the Osirak reactor near Baghdad in 1981 - was convincing the political echelon that the IDF was capable of successfully carrying out the mission.

Ashkenazi will have to do the same. But before he attempts to persuade the politicians, he will first need - together with IAF commander Maj.-Gen. Eliezer Shkedy - to convince himself that the IDF that lost in Lebanon is capable of winning in Iran.

falasha, which means exiles or strangers, or falasha mura, which are Messianic Jews, followers of Jesus.

Some say Falasha descendants of the Tribe of Dan who left during the Solomonic civil war between Rehoboam and Jeroboam, some say King Solomon gave Queen Sheba a "royal gift".

I was going to ask you if you were Falasha, but I thought better of it.

Any Jew has right of return to Israel at any time, Ethiopian Jews serve bravely in the IDF, they have a hard time in Israel. Its a shame, white people and black people always seem to have a hard time together, and thats sad. But the good thing about Jesus is that you are my sister, you are my blood, bought thru the Blood.

I am falasha mura, but white, I'm a Jew who follows Jesus.

God will protect Israel, no fear. Just faith.

and God bless Ethiopia, may he bless the Church in Ethiopia to raise up many missionaries there, because after America attacked Iraq, its the missionaries raised WITHIN the Horn of Africa that will bring the Gospel to that blessed region, Ethiopia, Eriterea, Somalia, Sudan, Egypt, Mali, Niger, Chad.

your brother , neil

Ready for war
By Con Coughlin
Last Updated: 12:29am GMT 25/02/2007

There may not yet be gas masks in the street in Tel Aviv but no one should underestimate Israel's determination to prevent a nuclear Iran

Down on the seafront in Tel Aviv, where crowds of young Israelis are to be found taking advantage of the unseasonably warm spring sunshine this weekend, it is hard to imagine that Israel is confronting what is arguably the gravest threat to its survival since it emerged from the ashes of the Holocaust 59 years ago.

Statement of intent? A banner carried during demonstrations in Tehran

The apocalyptic rantings of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the menace posed by the ayatollahs' outlawed nuclear programme are a million miles from the minds of the couples lounging in the sun sipping cold beers, or engaged in vigorously competitive games of beach volleyball.

Apart from the occasional noisy interruption as a patrol of Cobra military helicopters passes overhead on its way to Gaza, or the sullen presence of the naval patrol vessels anchored offshore on the lookout for waterborne suicide bombers, these carefree souls seem blissfully unaware of the storm clouds of war gathering over the political horizon.

"We have nothing to fear from the Iranians," Amiram Levi told me. "If they become too much of a threat we can deal with them just as we dealt with the Iraqis when they tried to build a nuclear bomb."

Amiram, a 20-year-old computer science student at Tel Aviv University, was of course referring to the daredevil raid made by Israeli fighter jets against Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981, which destroyed at a stroke Saddam Hussein's dreams of turning his country into a nuclear superpower.

advertisementMost Israelis believe their country will do the same again if the outside world fails to call a halt to Iran's controversial uranium enrichment programme, which few in Israel doubt is ultimately aimed at giving the ayatollahs a nuclear weapons arsenal to fulfil Ahmadinejad's pledge to erase the Jewish state from the map.

Having already suffered a near-apocalypse in the form of the Holocaust, the Jewish people have no intention of being the hapless victims of Ahmadinejad's genocidal designs. Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, last month gave his most explicit warning to date that Israel was prepared to use military force to prevent Teheran from obtaining a nuclear weapon: "The Jewish people, with the scars of the Holocaust fresh on its body, cannot afford to allow itself to face threats of annihilation once again."

That single sentence sums up the consensus among most of the Israeli people. If the wider world is not prepared to take pre-emptive action to stop Iran from fulfilling its nuclear ambitions, then Israel is ready to act alone.

Normally, in times of national emergency, such as the build-up to the 2003 Iraq War, Israel is bustling with precautionary activity - civil defence organisers handing out gas masks and ensuring the bomb shelters are ready.

But today there is scant evidence of anyone preparing for a potential war. The only gas masks on display are those used by children for fancy dress, while recent press reports that the super-rich residents of Herzliya were building their own state-of-the-art nuclear bunkers were greeted with derision by less well-off citizens.

In contrast, the country's political, military and intelligence-gathering infrastructure has thrown all the resources it can muster at the challenge of neutralising Iran's nuclear capability.

"The amount of effort we are putting into this single issue is unprecedented in the history of the State of Israel," said a senior Israeli security official who works on the strategic committee that has been set up to deal with the Iran threat, which is personally chaired by Olmert.

The committee's main function is to ensure the closest possible liaison on the latest intelligence and military developments. It is also responsible for maintaining a close dialogue with countries supportive of Israel's concerns, particularly the United States, which has seconded officials to work alongside the Israelis.

The committee has yet to have any contact with Britain, although it is hoped that a dialogue will begin "in the not-too-distant future".

Nor should anyone be in any doubt as to the extreme sense of urgency that is driving the Israeli government's activity. To ensure that the country has the best available resources at its disposal, Olmert announced last week that Meir Dagan, the head of Mossad, Israel's overseas intelligence service, had been asked to postpone his retirement until at least the end of 2008.

Dagan, the son of Holocaust survivors, has already served six years in the post, during which time he has become Israel's leading expert on Iran's nuclear programme. "The last thing I want is to have to change horses at a time like this," Olmert remarked after Dagan agreed to serve the extra term.

On the military side, Olmert has also taken the significant step of handing responsibility for preparing Israel's response to the Iranian challenge to the commander of the Israeli Air Force, Eliezer Shkedi.

Shkedi, a former F-16 fighter pilot who saw active service in Lebanon during the 1982 invasion and shot down two Syrian MiG fighters, is in charge of Iran Command, the unit responsible for dealing with any possible threat the Iranians might pose to Israel's security.

As part of the defensive preparations for a missile attack, the Israelis recently conducted a successful test-firing of the new Arrow anti-missile defence system, a development that has mainly been funded by the Pentagon.

The Arrow is the successor to the American Patriot missile system used to shoot down Saddam's Scuds during the 1991 Gulf War. But where the Patriot attacks the incoming missile as it nears its target, the Arrow is designed to intercept a hostile missile much earlier, in the upper atmosphere.

From Israel's perspective this is a crucial advance, especially if the Iranians were to attempt to fire missiles armed with nuclear warheads. "There's no point shooting down a nuclear missile once it's over Israel - the devastation would be just the same," an Israeli military officer explained this week. "The idea is to take it out long before it hits Israel."

That would mean such a missile exploding somewhere over Iraq or Jordan, thereby potentially causing widespread devastation in those countries.

"No one has done much thinking about what might happen if you exploded a nuclear weapon in the upper atmosphere," added the officer. "It's probably something people should look at."

But ensuring Israel has an effective defence against an Iranian missile attack is crucial. Iran has made it clear it will respond to any attack against its nuclear facilities, and its Shahab-3 ballistic missiles have the range to strike throughout Israel.

As for Israel's offensive plans against Iran, the Iran Command team's task is to demonstrate that Israel has the capability to act unilaterally.

"No one is going to take this threat seriously until the State of Israel can demonstrate to the outside world that we have the ability to deal with this menace on our own," said a senior security official who serves on Iran Command.

"The only way we can put pressure on the outside world to deal effectively with Iran's nuclear programme is to demonstrate that we can do this ourselves.

''Of course, we hope it doesn't come to a military solution, and we hope that this can be resolved through diplomacy. But Iran's track record is not good."

For the Israelis, taking out Iran's nuclear facilities is a very different proposition to the 1981 attack on Iraq's nuclear reactor. Back then, the Israelis had the element of surprise - the last thing the Iraqis expected to see was a squadron of Israeli warplanes in their airspace.

Iraq's nuclear programme also posed a relatively straightforward target in that all the facilities were concentrated at the Osirak complex, south of Baghdad. A few well-targeted bombs released in a single air raid were sufficient to do the job.

The Iranians, on the other hand, learning the lessons of the Osirak debacle, have scattered their resources around the country. Obvious targets, such as the controversial uranium enrichment complex at Natanz, are set in specially constructed bomb proof bunkers that would require high-precision, bunker-busting bombs to inflict any serious damage.

Yet another challenge is presented by the recent arrival of the Russian-made Tor M1 anti-aircraft missile system as part of an arms deal signed between Moscow and Teheran last year.

"Of course, attacking Iran is not going to be easy, but we cannot just sit here and let the ayatollahs develop a nuclear weapons arsenal," said a senior Israeli defence official. "Doing nothing is just not an option."

Israeli defence officials are understandably coy about revealing precisely how far advanced their plans are for launching air strikes against Iran in light of the current diplomatic offensive at the United Nations to halt Teheran's enrichment programme ending in failure.

But that the Israeli Air Force, as The Daily Telegraph exclusively discloses today, is negotiating with US coalition commanders in Iraq for permission to fly through US-controlled air space suggests Israeli military planners have overcome most of the key technical hurdles, such as in-flight refuelling and target selection.

"One of the last issues we have to sort out is how we actually get to targets in Iran," an Israeli officer involved in the military planning told me. "The only way to do this is to fly through US-controlled air space in Iraq. If we don't sort these issues out now we could have a situation where American and Israeli war planes are shooting at each other."

The pace of military planning in Israel, which has markedly accelerated since the start of the year, is being driven by Mossad's stark intelligence assessment that Iran, given the rate of progress on uranium enrichment at Natanz, could have enough fissile material for a nuclear warhead by 2009.

This is, it should be stressed, only an assessment as opposed to hard fact, and the Israeli assessment is starkly at odds with those made by other Western intelligence agencies, and by the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the UN-sponsored body responsible for monitoring nuclear development activities worldwide.

Last week, Dr Mohamed ElBaradei, the head of the IAEA, said his assessment was that Iran was still five to ten years away from developing a nuclear warhead, a view that is generally supported by the British and American intelligence communities.

But the Israelis are insistent that their assessments are more realistic. "The problem is that no one really knows what is going on in Iran," said a senior Israeli security official working on Iran's nuclear brief. "Iran has consistently lied to the outside world about what its true intentions really are, and we can't allow a situation to develop where the Iranians, like North Korea, announce they have an atomic bomb, when all the so-called experts said they didn't have the capability or expertise to do it."

Israeli officials point out that IAEA inspectors are not allowed access to the main underground chamber at Natanz where uranium enrichment will soon be taking place on an industrial scale. They are also convinced that the evidence so far accumulated by IAEA officials shows that Iran has a clandestine nuclear weapons programme.

"No one who knows about this - and this includes the experts in London and Washington - is in any doubt that Iran is secretly trying to build a bomb," said the security official. "The only issue at stake is how long it will be before they get one."

If that is the case, then the only question that remains is how much longer the Israelis are prepared to wait before they take matters into their own hands.

For the moment, the Olmert government seems prepared to let the United Nations process play out, even though Israeli officials make no secret of their disdain for the way ElBaradei is handling the crisis. "He doesn't seem to care one way or another whether the Iranians get a bomb. All he wants is a quiet life," said one senior government adviser.

And there is no doubt that the Israelis would prefer their superpower protector, the United States, to do their dirty work for them if the UN-sponsored diplomacy fails to bring Teheran to its senses. But the bottom line is that if, within the next two years, the Iranians are still maintaining their rate of progress on the nuclear front, the Israelis are ready and able to act on their own if need be.

"After the September 11 attacks, we now live in an age of pre-emption," said a senior Olmert adviser. "The Jewish people have not forgotten the last time the world watched and did nothing. We are determined that shall never happen again."

Why don't we ever pray for Palestine?

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

My prayer is that the Palestinian people get more land, and make East Jerusalem their Capitol.

We should pray for the peace of the state of Israel and the state of Palestine.

Israel is not Gods' chosen people

then you worship a fork tongued god who is a liar.......and if you believe that God goes back on His Word, and His Covenant promises, than what makes you so sure He won't go back on the promises made to the people that follow the Messiah? and give these promises to say...muslims, hmm?

If don't believe that the Jews and the Nation of Israel figure into the end time prophesies, I don't know what Bible you're reading.

nice prayer, too bad they cant stop killing one another, too bad that Israel doesnt have a real partner for peace in the region.

Hi IRONMAN,

What I'm about to say is [u]not replacement theology[/u]. If you are thinking that what follows [i]is[/i] replacement theology, then challenge me in the other thread, please. *

Also, this is long, but (I think), necessarily so.

You said

for example, the temple must be rebuilt and made functional again as it was in the days of old, only the Jews can do that.

Also, if there is anything about who will build it, please direct me.

Here are the scriptures which I associate with the third temple.

[color=006666]John 2:13 - 22 (NKJV)
Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the moneychangers doing business.

When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers' money and overturned the tables. And He said to those who sold doves, "Take these things away! Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise!"

Then His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up." (Psalm 69:9)

So the Jews answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?" Jesus answered and said to them, [b]"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."[/b]Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" [b]But He was speaking of the temple of His body.[/b]

Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

Ephesians 2:11 - 22
Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh -- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands -- that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity - the law of commandments in ordinances - so as to create in Himself [u]one new man[/u] [i]from[/i] the two, making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.

For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:1 - 10
Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, if indeed you have tasted that the Lord [i]is[/i] gracious. Coming to Him, a living stone rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God, precious, you also as living stones are being built up a spiritual house - a holy priesthood - to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

"Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."

Therefore, to you who believe, [i]He is[/i] precious; but to those who are disobedient,

"The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,"

and

"A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense."

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

But you [i]are[/i] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; [u]who once [i]were[/i] not a people but [i]are[/i] now the people of God[/u], who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

John 10:14 - 16
"I am the good shepherd; and I know My [i]sheep[/i] and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock [i]and[/i] one shepherd.

Hebrews 12:22 - 24
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than [i]that of[/i] Abel.

Galatians 4:19 - 31
My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you. Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic.

For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar -- [u]for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children[/u] -- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

For it is written:

"Rejoice, O barren, who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband."

Now we, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise.

But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him [i]who was born[/i] according to the Spirit, even so, now.

Nevertheless what does the Scripture say?

"Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for [u]the son of the bondwoman [b]shall not be[/b] heir with the son of the freewoman[/u]."

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Galatians 6:12 - 16
As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these [i]would[/i] compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy upon them, and upon the Israel of God.[/color]

bartle,

Please be patient (with me), as this is only [i]part[/i] of my thesis.

* [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15106&post_id=117206&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=117082&forum=35#117206]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15106&post_id=117206&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=117082&forum=35#117206[/url]

Hi IRONMAN,

Thank you for your efforts here.

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Now, there are several reasons I'd accept this thought as valid.

The first is, there is even more scripture than I quoted, to support that the third temple is the true Church. Then there is Jesus' own prophecy that for the sake of the elect, the great tribulation would be shortened or [i]no flesh[/i] would be saved (Matt 24:22), and this includes great attempts to deceive the elect. This includes those of materialism and demonstrations of idolatry of other kinds, such as sexual immorality.

Lastly, I see many picture in the Old Testament of Jerusalem as an abused woman, and truly the Church is that... attacked in many different ways... tempted to sin ... physical violences perpetrated against her (members); because she worships God in purity, and refuses to sin willingly; she has a childlike faith in her Saviour. This makes her a prey... by which her enemies reveal their depravity all the more.

We have to remember that Daniel might not have had a concept of 'God's temple' being composed of many believers.... but this is certainly what we find in the New Testament.

It is very reasonable to the natural mind, of anyone to assume that a 'third temple', would be another building of stone, but it doesn't fit in with many other pictures in scripture, where there is a definite progression from the natural to the spiritual.

For instance, the first 'temple' was the tabernacle - a word which Peter uses to describe his own body in later life - and Paul was a 'tentmaker' - another way of alluding to church-building. Then Solomon built a temple. But it was doomed to become an obsolete 'picture', once the Old Covenant had been abolished. I think this is where there appears to be confusion. You talk about the Law of Moses, but Judaism today is much different from what was practised in Jesus' day. This is why the New Testament is full of Paul wresting the law away from believers.... Because the law has no place in the outward life of believers in Jesus Christ. It is now written in their hearts and minds by the Spirit.

If you can find any more Old Testament [i]scripture[/i] about a 'third temple', I'm interested to hear it.

ChrisJD said

I wanted to mention here that Paul does not use the word for Church in this passage, ekklesia.

Ironman:

the temple must be rebuilt and made functional again as it was in the days of old, only the Jews can do that.

I have only one passage of scripture and this will determine whether or not God is true or He is a liar.

Ezekiel 12:22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth?

Ezekiel 12:23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision.

Ezekiel 12:25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 12:27 Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off.

Ezekiel 12:28 Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD.

These words were spoken by God to Ezekiel 2500 years ago.

Hi ChrisJD,

Although I quoted from IRONMAN's post, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, actually I had the end of Ephesians in mind, which I quoted in my post in colour (p2).

I've just looked at the word for 'temple' in an interlinear, and it appears to be the same word in both Eph 2 and 2 Thes 2:4:

New Testament Greek Definition:

3485 naos {nah-os'}
from a primary naio (to dwell); TDNT - 4:880,625; n m
AV - temple 45, a shrine 1; 46
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice
(or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy
of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell
of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is
distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2) any heathen temple or shrine
3) metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages
joined together by and in Christ

I guess this is Strong's number (3485)

EDIT: Hi Compliments,

There is a lot of room for manoevre in 2500 years. I'm going to have to read that through in context before I can make a competent comment. (See here is where my lack of Old Testament knowledge is showing clearly!) But thank you. I am definitely interested in understanding more, especially as I do know some other things Ezekiel prophesied, which are amazing.

Hi Jay,

It seems to me that

'And so all Israel shall be saved:'

is what causes confusion in the minds of those who do not see the point you make about Jews having come to the Messiah all down through the centuries since He came.

I link 'all Israel' with the 'one flock' of John 10 and 'one new man' of Ephesians 2.

This offers a consistency of interpretation of the consistency of thought shown in scripture, where often the first birth (first born) is made subservient to the second birth (second born).

The first birth represents the man of flesh; the second birth represents the spiritual man.

We see this in Jacob, the man of flesh who ran away, but, having kept his side of the bargain he offered God, God blesses him abundantly, and gives him a name which acknowledges the change in his EDIT: change of heart (not 'nature' as I originally wrote). EDIT end. There is a lot more in this picture, seeing he is Isaac's second son, through whom the promises of God are made good to all who will receive them - both Jew and Gentile - who become one in Christ.

Galatians 3:29, "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

If I am Abraham's offspring and the promise to Abraham was simply land, then don't I have a claim to that land?

Ironman said:....Wasn't what was said here in reference to what Ezekiel was talking about the sacking of Jerusalem? that people thought it wouldn't happen?

Ezekiel 12:28 Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall [b]none of my words be prolonged any more[/b], but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 12:25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD.

Compliments, I'm with you on this one.

There is no Jew nor Gentile, Black nor White, Male nor Female, Slave nor Free - but all are one in Christ Jesus.

The "Light Unto the Gentiles" is come. He saves anyone who believes, Jew or Gentile. Once saved, we are Citizens of [i]The Heavenly Jerusalem[/i] and we no longer require built tabernacles to worship in because [i]We Are The Tabernacle[/i].

This doctrine that before Jesus' [i]Third Coming[/i] - after "coming in the clouds" to 'rapture' the believers - a new physcial temple must be built, sacrifices must be reinstated, and the Jews must become the masters of the human race [i]must[/i]... or he positively won't come... is ludicrous. Not to mention CARNAL.

If we are the Temple, what does that say about "the abomination of desolation"?

Jesus [i]was[/i] the sacrifice. We [i]are[/i] the temple.

Israel's not better nor worse than Iran. An unsaved Jew isn't more holy than an unsaved Arab.

Compliments said

"For in your days", is as long as Israel remained a nation, wouldn't you agree?

I came across a few verses in Hebrews 3, which I've never 'seen' before, in the context of my earlier post about believers being the temple of God.

I don't have much more to say, seeing there are other threads ongoing which continually hit the rock of 'who is Israel now?', but I want to share this fresh thought.

As an introduction, these words of Jesus (below) struck me as relevant; perhaps especially because I've begun to ask myself 'what is the [i]one[/i] hope, referred to by Paul in Ephesians 4, and here again (Heb 3), as 'the hope'?

First, John 14
1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 "In My Father's house are many mansions; if [i]it were[/i] not [i]so,[/i] I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, [i]there[/i] you may be also.
4 "And where I go you know, and the way you know."
5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7 " If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

This is what I read in Hebrews 3:
1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also [i]was faithful[/i] in all His house.
3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house.
4 For every house is built by someone, [color=006699]but He who built all things [i]is[/i] God[/color].
5 And Moses indeed [i]was[/i] faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken [i]afterward,[/i]
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, [color=006699]whose house we are [/color][color=0000CC][b]if[/b][/color] [color=006699]we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end[/color].

Dorcas, just finding this thread. May I ask ~ are these threads Hizzoner's ?

dito ~ SHALOM!

GrannieAnnie asked

are these threads Hizzoner's ?

rookie asked

shouldn't the question be who will Israel be?

This is how I see it. I am, of course, open to 'see' more.

Israel both is, and will be.

I am amazed at how much is made of what will become of Jews who are now or are yet to be born, as if there has not been a steady stream of Jews coming into Christ right down the centuries. I don't say this in opposition to Paul's statement about a time when there will be a veritable flood of Jews, but I'm not certain this is going to be as striking as many seem to believe.

Because, Jesus said there would be few who would find the narrow way and this seems to be true in every generation, also. And, I think we have to accept He was most certainly speaking to the lost sheep of the house of Israel when He said that.

Also, as down through the generations, gentiles join themselves to the Jewish faith, thus qualifying to call themselves Jews in addition to those who are able to make claim to ethnic Jewishness, the numbers - as the sand on the seashore and the stars in the firmament - are increasing also. 1% of such a large number will be a lot of 'Jews'.

Lastly Jeff, have you ever noticed how God defined what He had done when He brought them out of Egypt (before the Law), though they were circumcised. Hmmm. That's a thought I hadn't had before - that it was easy for the Hebrews to consider themselves 'God's people' because of circumcision. All their guidance until the Law had come through God speaking to individual men. What those men (the patriarchs) had [i]said[/i], came with the power of affecting the lives of those who followed them. This is why Joseph was so keen to influence the blessing his sons were to receive from Jacob - it would be literally life-changing for each of them.

Put in the context of Paul's ' by the law [i]is[/i] the knowledge of sin, it seems remarkable that God had been willing to call them His people despite where they had ended up - in Egypt (symbolic of sin), and did not give them 'law' until after He had brought them out of there.... (Just thinking.... )

Going back to where I was a minute ago, here is God's view of the exodus:

Exodus 19
3 And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:
4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and [i]how[/i] I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to [b]Myself[/b].

Later, He said through Moses:
Deuteronomy 10:16
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

In the KJV, this is the seventh time He has called them stiffnecked, lastly mentioned by Stephen (Acts 7:51) followed by 'ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [i]did[/i], so [i]do[/i] ye.'

God goes on in Exodus 19
5 'Now therefore, [u]if[/u] you will indeed obey [u]My voice[/u] and [u]keep My covenant[/u], then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth [i]is[/i] Mine.
6 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.'

I think I should start a new post, now I've found more to say than was originally in my mind.

Hebrews 9
7 But into the second part the high priest [i]went[/i] alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and [i]for[/i] the people's sins [i]committed[/i] in ignorance;
8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.

9 It [i]was[/i] symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience --
10 [i]concerned[/i] only with foods and drinks, various washings, and [u]fleshly ordinances [b]imposed until the time of reformation[/b][/u].

11 But Christ came [i]as[/i] High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, [u]cleanse your conscience[/u] from dead works [u]to serve the living God[/u]?

15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, [u]that those who are called may receive [b]the promise of the eternal inheritance[/b][/u].

So, in view of what God said to the people at Sinai (the people who didn't want to hear Him speak to them directly, but wanted Moses to relay His word), that He had brought them (into the wilderness where there were no fleshly pleasures to enjoy) to [i]Himself[/i], is it too much of a leap to interpret 'the promise of the eternal inheritance' as [i]Himself[/i] primarily.

Sorry Jeff! This is getting longer and longer... :-( ... but I would add one more thought from God's qualifying clause at the end of Exodus 19:5 'for all the earth is Mine.'

This is completely in keeping with Paul's re-iteration of the promise to Abraham in Romans 4:12, 13 'but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham [i]had while still[/i] uncircumcised. [u]For the promise that he would be the heir of [b]the world[/b][/u] [i]was[/i] not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but [b]through the righteousness of faith[/b].'

In this, we are back to God's people being those who hear from Him personally and directly, not filtered through a human priesthood or theological school of doctrine apart from scripture. In another thread, 'and... they testify of Me' has been quoted.

I believe this can be understood in other statements which Paul makes about Jesus.

2 Cor 5:19
God was in Christ reconciling [u]the world to [b]Himself[/b][/u], not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and [u]in Him all things consist[/u].
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased [i]the Father that[/i]] in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and [b]by Him to reconcile all things to [u]Himself[/u], by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven[/b], having made peace through the blood of His cross.

I really do wonder if the 'land' He promised, which Abraham walked into peacefully but never owned (as LittleGift pointed out) more than a burial plot, was, like the Holy Spirit to us here, an earnest of the full inheritance to come, namely - Himself.

There is a sense in which we, also, like Abraham, can never aspire to own more than 'a burial plot' in Christ, that we may be counted amongst those worthy of resurrection from the dead. Is not this the one and only hope of salvation (Eph 4:4)?

Genesis 15:1
After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: [b]I[/b] [i]am[/i] thy shield, [i]and[/i] [b]thy exceeding great reward[/b].

Jeff said

Is not Christ the totallity of the exceedingly great reward?

... Yet how many will be born in the 1000 year reign of Christ?

Hi Jeff :-D

It has never occurred to me that people might be born during the 1000 year reign of Christ. :-o

That passage you quote from Isaiah, is interesting though, because it I can see why you would assume that sinners would still be being born, taking the reference in v 20 you quoted.

However, the way I have read any reference to sinners during that time, is that they will have been destroyed at the beginning of it, by the word from His mouth when He arrives, and all saints will be with Him.

I don't think one can take the references to the ages of people, as being something confined by time any more, but rather a reference to the age they were when they fell asleep in Christ (if they are now alive in Him).

We know more about
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.'

from Revelation, and though we know that Christ ate (Luke 24:42, John 21:13), He also had said:

Mark 12:25
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

So, either the millenial reign will be in the old earth with the old heaven, where births and marriages will continue to produce sinners (and wars), or, it will be on the new earth, where sinners are dispatched at the outset, no more are born, and [i]that's[/i] why there will be [u]peace[/u].

I don't [i]think[/i] it can be both peopled with sinners [i]and[/i] without strife.

Hi Jeff,

I know you've been preaching these last two Sundays :-) How was it?

I'm linking this thread to posts by RobertW which explain (potted version) something of the history of Jews in and out of the Church, because I've found them helpful to understand more detail.

[b]'All Israel will be Saved?'[/b]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17227&forum=36&start=100&109]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17227&forum=36&start=100&109[/url]

Not speculation Aaron, you're right ~ it's plenary inerrance.
He need not say things a thousand times. Just "they who have ears" is repeated through-out Revelations. We choose to spiritualize where 'we' choose and to literalize where we choose. But doing justice to His Word is to seek it out, by cross-referencing, not twisting verses around in our heads with just our intellect or imagination alone. There are O.T. passages enough that speak of the 1000 yr.s and why the folks living then will be young to old - giving birth and not in resurrected bodies.

One thing He's made clear, is the events surrounding His second advent. Three times more than for His First.

Rev 20:7-9 [u]And when the thousand years are expired[/u], Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and [u]shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth[/u], Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. End of Story.

Those mentioned in the previous few verses before these, are those who are resurrected and rule and reign with Christ for that 1000 yr.s in their glorified bodies over people who were not resurrected because, though they didn't worship the beast, or his name or the number of his name, and weren't saved yet, they were looking for some promise of a Messiah ... the true one. So there surely will be folks here for the resurrected Saints to "rule and reign" over with Christ. These .....

Rev 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the [u]first[/u] resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the [u]first[/u] resurrection: [u]on such the second death hath no power[/u], but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Then after the 1000 yr.s, comes the second resurrection & "second death" ....
Rev 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived [u]them[/u] was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And [u]whosoever was not found[/u] written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

No sense adding to or taking away from such simpley laid out descriptions.

Lord Bless.

I am, at last, reading in the Old Testament again, and making a great deal more sense of some of it, than I did the last time. 8-)

At the top of p4, Compliments quoted from Ezekiel 12. I remembered this when I came to something in Ezekiel 11.

Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?

14 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

15 Son of man, thy brethren, [i]even[/i] thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, [i]are[/i] they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said,

Get you far from the LORD: unto us is this land given in possession.

16 Therefore say,

Thus saith the Lord GOD;

Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

17 Therefore say,

Thus saith the Lord GOD;

I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

21 But [i]as for them[/i] whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

I'm not sure if this is, historically, the earliest chronological mention of the new heart and spirit, but from God's point of view, it is unmistakably associated with a return to the land of Israel for those claiming the name 'Israel' upon themselves.

For those following across the threads on this topic, I am still in Ezekiel, and will respond to a question about that, in the relevant thread, when I'm ready.

I just wanted to share this quotation, which was posted by appolus in a thread called 'We are the Temple', in the Scriptures and Doctrine forum.

[i]Slowly, all through the universe, that temple of God is
being built. Wherever, in any world, a soul, by free-willed
obedience, catches the fire of God's likeness, it is set into
the growing walls, a living stone. When, in your hard fight,
in your tiresome drudgery, or in your terrible temptation, you
catch the purpose of your being and give yourself to God, and
so give Him the chance to give Himself to you, your life -- a
living stone -- is taken up and set into that growing wall.
Wherever souls are being tried and ripened, in whatever
commonplace and homely ways, there God is hewing out the
pillars for His temple. Oh, if the stone can only have some
vision of the temple of which it is to be a part forever, what
patience must fill it as it feels the blows of the hammer, and
knows that success for it is simply to let itself be wrought
into what shape the Master wills.[/i]

... Phillips Brooks (1835-1893), The Law of Growth [1902]

Following discussion earlier in this thread about the belief of some that a third physical temple must be built in Jerusalem before the 'man of sin' can be manifested there, here is a link which Bro Rahman posted in the other thread where this has been discussed 'Gentile Tribulation Question' (around pp 12 and 13).

[url=http://www.sonstoglory.com/ThirdTempleEzekielsMillennialTemple.htm]Model of Ezekiel's Temple[/url]

Reading the text accompanying the diagrams and graphics, there seem to me to be glaring inconsistencies... but don't take my word for it.

;-)