Healing

mmm this is an thread out of the thread "time square church"...basicly if we get sick its our own fault...becuse we lack faith...and if someone does not get healed it is also lack of faith....

i think these verses are quite clear to...they brought forward ALL that was sick.... but he "only" healed many of them...why not all?

Mar 1:32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.
Mar 1:33 And all the city was gathered together at the door.
Mar 1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.

i think these verses are quite clear to...they brought forward ALL that was sick.... but he "only" healed many of them...why not all?

It does not say He did not heal them all, it only says that he healed many. Do you know what that word means in greek? I advise you to go look that one up.

If you were writing what happened, and you didn't know how many were healed that day, you would write He healed many,

many in greek is a whole lot more than you think.

Also, in reference to Paul, it says nowhere that he was sick, or had a disease. Theologians believe that often.

It says that God allowed a messenger of Satan to buffet him in the flesh.

For all we know, it could have been a demon who was giving Paul horrible dreams to try to upset his "Abundance of revelation".

You can't just accept theologians word for everything.

There just need to be a balance. I was at a WOF church that said I had a lack of faith b/c I have diabetes. I have not been healed. Yet, I have never seen in my Bible (KJV as well ;-) ) that God is not willing to heal. So with my diabetes i can honestly say that healing is biblically God's will.
The main fact we all need is to have a dependency on God. We need to put our faith on God. I would tell everyone to read divine healing by Andrew Murray. And when he refers to faith..it's not faith in your faith...it's dependency on the Almighty and His strength.

P.S Dake had some crazy theology I know this, but here is something he said that I dig "If you are going to a church where the elders will not lay hands on you in the name of Jesus for your healing, find a new church"

Hey Krispy, when did I ever name a theologian from which I drew any of my conclusions?

Next your whole post about Paul still comes out to be an opinion for either side of the argument and is not proveable on either side.

Therefore, as merely an opinion, it should not be a centerpiece for an argument.

BenWilliams wrote:

many in greek is a whole lot more than you think.

Mar 1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.

many
4183
polus / polos

Thayer Definition:

1) many, much, large

Part of Speech: adjective

how many more is that ?

Strongs
G4183
πολύς, πολλός
polus polos
pol-oos'
Including the forms from the alternate “pollos”; (singular) much (in any respect) or (plural) many; neuter (singular) as adverb largely; neuter (plural) as adverb or noun often, mostly, largely: - abundant, + altogether, common, + far (passed, spent), (+ be of a) great (age, deal, -ly, while), long, many, much, oft (-en [-times]), plenteous, sore, straitly. Compare G4118, G4119.

and as for the word all...

all

G3650
ὅλος
holos
Thayer Definition:
1) all, whole, completely

strongs
G3650
ὅλος
holos
hol'-os
A primary word; “whole” or “all”, that is, complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb: - all, altogether, every whit, + throughout, whole.

to me it still seems as they brought forward ALL, but he only healed many... he dident heal all....

Ben, I want to say this with frank sincerity, you are treading on unstable ground... you are accusing just about every other Christian who has ever lived of being unfaithful. You are very close to becoming a cultist!

[This is in reference to your comments here and in the Times Square Church thread.]

o me it still seems as they brought forward ALL, but he only healed many... he dident heal all....

It doesn't say that.

Since this is a semantics question, let me follow with some semantics.

It doesn't say they brought forth all.

It doesn't even say how many they brought forward.

Perhaps they brought so few forward that Jesus had to go into the crowd and pull them out just so that He could heal many.

Perhaps Jesus had to use the disciples help because He Himself could not pull enough of them out of the crowd so that He could heal many.

well Ben i love your seal, but we stand on different viewpoints on scripture... i believe God heals people today, but i also do believe God don't heal everyone... but i still have love for you :-) may God use you brother for his eternal glory

BenWilliams wrote:
It doesn't say they brought forth all.

It doesn't even say how many they brought forward.
.

Mar 1:32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

This is all very interesting.

Krispy, you seem to pick a fight when no one is fighting.

PS This should boost my popularity...

(This shows that you know what your doing)

Then Krispy, you go off and say that WOF must believe in 'continual' healing till the 2nd coming of Christ. Which is totally out of line. *(I'm not defending WOF, just stating Krispy error in his judgement)*

Why does everyone die eventually? If healing is for all, and God desires to heal everyone... why isnt there anyone thats 2,000 years old? In all that time there wasnt one person who had enough faith?

Also, I believe that Krispy you misunderstand what the orginal poster said.

You said.

God does heal, no doubt. But not in the manner that you are espousing. This WOF doctrine is to be rejected and denounced.

Someone is asking God to heal someone. Is that WOF? No, brother. You said it yourself.

God does heal, no doubt.

Then.

Funny that Paul was [b]never[/b] healed.

Just because it doesn't say that 'Paul wasn't healed' in this situation, it doesn't mean that he NEVER was.

There ARE events that happened OUTSIDE of Scripture. (Ref. John 21:24-25)

But, about referring to Paul. Why would God heal Paul when God wanted to use this situation to HUMBLE Paul? He wouldn't because we all need to learn lessons (that's what a disciple is..) (Ref. 2 Corin. 12:7) *(If you didn't catch the 'lesson' God wanted to humble Paul through this 'thorn')*

Now, Ben Williams saying the greek says 'many and not all'. Hmm, I beg to differ.

In Mark 1:32. Here is the greek word for 'all'.[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Mar&chapter=1&verse=32&strongs=3956&page=]here[/url]
Then in the following verses it describes what that 'all' intailed. "Many exocisms, many infirmaties lifted, etc". So, Many exorcisms + many healings of diseases = ALL healed from the city.

I had to look this up because I never heard anyone say what you said Ben, but maybe your looking up a different verse. Feel free to share maybe the one your talking about.

Now again about Paul. Theologians from every background disagree with each other on weither it was a sickness or the persecution that he was receiving or a demon.

Haha. Then 'hmmhmm' switches the greek about Mark Ch.1.

Now, since there is a lot of confusion referring to these verses. Here is the KJV.

Mark 1:32-35

32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him [b]all[/b] that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

33 And [b]all[/b] the city was gathered together at the door.

34 And he healed [u]many[/u] that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out [u]many[/u] devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.

35 And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.

Here is my commentary again.

In Mark 1:32. Here is the greek word for 'all'.[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Mar&chapter=1&verse=32&strongs=3956&page=]here[/url]
Then in the following verses it describes what that 'all' intailed. "Many exocisms, many infirmaties lifted, etc". So, Many exorcisms + many healings of diseases = ALL healed from the city.

Finally, to avoid any confusion on people reading my post. My point of posting this was to point out Krisipy's quick judgement; that was in error. (Not defending WOF) Then state Paul's problem was really a lesson of humilty. And finally, the greek does state ALL then describes what that "all" entailed.

Oh, Krispy probly already knows this. But I love that guy. (Maybe he didn't but now he knows) He has been a blessing to SI and to me personally. Helping me to maintain that 'balance'. Because their are a lot of wolves out there. This is just simply one area, where I think Krispy, 'jumped the gun' on his 'discerning' and felt the need to point it out.

**I'm not blameless by far. And Krispy if there is something that I missed, due share.

Now, before I finish my post. Why is someone's forum name 'Goddamus' or 'God-dam-us' that sounds quite rude and non-biblical.

i just don't get the "logic" in this,

for example...if my mother is sick, she is a Christian, she prays to God for healing, i pray for her for healing, then she dies, then it was my or her fault that she died because mine / her faith was to weak? and i got my faith from God , so we could blame God for my mothers death then? or what are people saying?

because we do get our faith from god, if you work up your own faith it ain't worth much, so if i get my faith from God and i pray for someone and they die , and let me clarify when i pray i do believe God will do it, if i don't believe it it is not prayer...i don't know what we call that but its not prayer, so if someone dies its Gods fault? or is it my fault because god didn't give me the faith i needed?

and people say he bore our sickness on the cross... he did,,,but also our sins... my head goes then to if we don't have faith that heals everyone everywhere...if not even my deceases are on the cross...how do you know your sins are? unless of course you don't sin anymore and dont get sick? i guess that is possible..... i don't know...i just have a hard time figure this out.... and what about Job? didn't Jesus allow him to get sick?

can someone explain this idea that no one should be sick if they just have faith.... witch Gods seems to hold back on... and if it is so...why isn't it also so whit our sins which he also bore on the cross?

Difference in unbelief
The unbelief that hinders our sins to be carried is a rebelious, defiant unbelief
Sickness a doubt not rebelious defiance, but a doubt.
Now I am not saying there is a cut a dry way to get healed or do I know why believers have sickness (I believe God is a healer noone will ever tell me differently and I have diabetes) but there's the logic difference in sin and sickness

i think this is a wonderful article so i share it whit you all

Sickness, disease, decay, and death

(J. C. Ryle, "Christ in the Sick Room")

"Lord, the one You love is sick!" John 11:3

Sickness, disease, decay, and death are the
common lot of all mankind without exception.

The human body is a most frail and complicated
machine. From the sole of the foot to the crown
of the head, there is not a part of us which is not
liable to disease. When I think of the variety of
ailments which may assail our bodies, I do not
wonder so much that we die at last--as I do that
we live so long.

But whence comes this liability to sickness,
disease, and death?

The fall of man at the beginning has brought
sin into the world, and sin has brought with
it the curse of sickness, suffering, and pain.

God sends sickness in order to do us good. It is
a friendly letter from heaven. It is a knock at the
door of conscience. Happy is he who opens the
letter and reads it, who hears the knock and opens
the door, who welcomes Christ to the sick room.

Regard your sickness as . . .
a blessing in disguise,
a good and not an evil,
a friend and not an enemy.

I think that stinks

Yes God sends sickness for our good. Not once though is the recepient happy about it. Sickness is only sent (by God not due to fact that we are fallen 2 seperate sicknesses) upon the defiant...not to the one following Christ diligently. Note the OT...Jews were sent plagues and sickness only when following other gods

id like to recommend also a series of sermons by Zac Poonen, its called balance of truth...its in both video and audio, it is a blessing

This is what I believe however I could be wrong the faith of the person being prayed for must be an equivalent to the person who is praying. The majoring of the time when we are praying, we are praying the Word of God and by doing so, Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

If a person is not yet healed, it’s because they choose to doubt. A double minded man should not think that he will receive anything from the Lord.

A double minded man or women should not think he or she will receive anything from the Lord.

Bottom line IS faith is a verb without faith it is impossible to please God, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can tell this mountain to move and it will obey, when two or more agree on anything as touching it it shall be done.

This could be controversial, someone mentioned that Katherine Kulman died of cancer, yet she had a healing ministry, passed her mantle over to Benny Henn, and he then suffered of a heart condition for many years. Sure he is well known as an Evangelist, an Evangelist with a heart condition performing miracles by healing the sick.

It was during his healing ministry praying for someone to be healed of a heart condition, that it so happens it was the same heart condition that he suffered and God healed them Both.

Is there anything too hard for the Lord, God can do exceedingly and abundantly all that we ask or even think/hope for.

Krispy, I know you were apart of that disgusting doctrinal belief.

Thanks for clarifying everything. But keep in mind, you shouldn't 'vent' your anger at people because of a wrong doctrine. (This is something recent, like a week ago, the Lord has been teaching me)

Brothers and Sisters,
We all like to proclaim what we think or what we believe and what so and so said, but what does the Word say.
Mark 16:14-18
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. [15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. [17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; [18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Notice, the words of our Lord. These signs SHALL
follow them that believe. When is the church going to stop making excuses for its unbelief?

Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief

pastorfrin

Hi everyone.

This that I wanted to share has been coming to mind recently and I thought this might be an appropriate place to share it.

According to Strong's, the word which is translated heresies, and listed among the works of the flesh in the Apostle's letter to the Galatians is

G139
αἵρεσις
hairesis
hah'ee-res-is
From G138; properly a choice, that is, (specifically) a party or (abstractly) disunion. (“heresy” is the Greek word itself.): - heresy [which is the Greekord itself], sect.

The scripture says of Simeon and Levi that

[i]in their selfwill they digged down a wall[/i]

in their [i][b]selfwill[/b][/i]

they digged down a wall.

Ben/Goddamus,i have spent nearly all my adult life working with disabled people,elderly,brain damaged units etc..I got to be honest ur post is so frustrating (i'm being restrained)..

You've not answered the most important post on this thread,which was Krispys!! You've seemed to of glossed over Joni Erikson Tada ministry..A lady who seems to of been healed inside of bitterness,frustrations and what ifs..

I'm asking you directly is Joni ministry a second best ministry because shes not healed? Is she not living up to everything she could be,if only she was healed in UR opinion?
aj

according to this "God wants to heal everyone" new covenant thing, it is something that to me seems lacking whit that, if it should be like that that we could never be sick if we only had a strong faith, (still believe we get our faith from God, so indirect its Gods fault) but we still get sick? do you Ben ever catch a cold or something? when you do is your faith lower then? and if our faith isn't big enough to overcome a small decease how do we know we have faith that overcome sin? because to me if my faith is so week it cant beat a small cold or fever, it isn't something id rely on to get me to heaven... i just cant see that in scripture... can anyone explain that?

I believe with all my heart that God is going to turn this paper in front of me into a million dollars... instantly! Wait, it hasn't happened, it must be because of my unbelief ~ oh woe is me.

I believe with all my heart that God is going to cure my grandmother of her terminal illness... instantly! Wait, it hasn't happened, she passed away, it must be because of my unbelief - oh woe is me.

Wait, it could be because only a lunatic would think that he could turn white paper into a million dollars worth of bills instantly... why is it that the same isn't true of healing.

You want to know why they're called Miracles? Because they're just that, miracles, they defy logic or explaination, or recreation! Sometimes God gives the power to do miracles and other times not. For example, Peter walked out of prison miraculously, but later we hear that Stephen was martyred! Well if we extend the jail-break miracle universally then there wouldn't be any martyrs would there? I really think these teachings on healing that are being discussed are heretically, divisive and sinful -and frankly untrue.

Jesus heals, let's leave it at that. We can see in history and even today that he hasn't always healed everyone -even if they deserve it, even if they have a faith that can move mountains. Sometimes it's not part of God's plan.

Stephen died a martyr, but no where else in the bible does it say that Jesus 'stood' at the right hand of the father... everywhere else he was sitting! Stephen died permaturely, but he was welcomed into heaven by the Lord himself, who stood to honor him!!!!

(tangent from the Times Square thread on the same topic) I also believe that when Fanny Crosby got to heaven, she got to see her Lord and savior, how beautiful that must have been, how beautiful that must be! Her faith was the size of a mountain, she suffered for the Gospel, and she will be rewarded as Jesus stands to welcome his faithful servant!

A verse to meditate upon.

Luke 5:17
One day as he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law, who had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem, were sitting there. [b]And the power of the Lord was present for him to heal the sick[/b].

This statement, made in the context it is made assumes that Jesus didn't always have the power to heal the sick, or he didn't in fact always heal the sick. There is no other way to explain this verse.

I dare you to try without looking a fool!

Now I would also like to mention that Luke is the most meticulous Gospel in that it was written by a physician, Luke, a doctor, Paul's travel companion. Now assuming that when fishermen join Jesus they become apostles, and tax collectors become apostles, and others become disciples, and it very rarely refers to a person's former station in life with the exception of two people I can think of. Paul confesses that he is a tent-maker and Luke a physician. Why would they need a physician around if everyone always got healed, wouldn't he just end up quiting his job.

Or could it be that Luke was a good person to have around because in fact, the Apostle Paul's buffeting in the flesh in fact was a wound to his flesh (as just about everyone outside of this forum who has ever studied the bible has agreed upon for 2000 years) and that a Physician by trade was a good thing to have around.

Lets face it
Some of you need to get to know God as more than the genie healing machine
and others you need to cry out for God to show you He is a divine physician

Krispy
I am just saying "the shoe fits". When I talk to christians they either are nutso about Jesus and His healing powers, but have no revelation about true grace. Or they are "anti-healing" I have Christians who refuse to let me pray with them b/c God wants them to be sick. I see the same kind of language on these boards. I have said numerous times I have diabetes not a clue why, had it since I was four, but I can definatley say it's not God's will for me to have diabetes. This is a quote from Andrew Murray "Heaven is the unhindered manifestation of God's will"...there will be no diabetes in heaven

Krispy one more thing
Keep me in prayer b/c I have been keeping you...I was painfully zinged and abused by the WOF lies. Lets both pray for each other to not lose the ( yes very few ;-) ) truths we were taught there. God Bless

Where I would start it where all theology should start...at God.
Jesus Christ was the revelation told about in the prophets. In Hebrews we get a further picture in how Christ was God and how there will be no new revelation...Christ was the final revelation of God.
I would say that when we look at Jesus He was a healer. He did move in compassion. Was everyone that was sick healed? no, but what I see in Scripture is everyone that came up to Him was. I am not saying I have an answer to healing or sickness, but I would say that before we go into prayer for anything (healing) we need to seek Jesus. When I discuss healing with other people I want to enthrone Jesus before discussing the issue, or asking Christ to manifest Himself through a sign, because the main problem in peoples life is not any sickness it's their knowledge of God (that's mine to..that's all of us..we could always know more about the Lord). And as brothers let's always start with gazing at Jesus

I believe that healing is for the believers for this reason:

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Saved means in the Strongs=

sozo {sode'-zo}

1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

a) one (from injury or peril)

1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue

b) to save in the technical biblical sense

1) negatively

a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment

b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance

AV - save 93, make whole 9, heal 3, be whole 2, misc 3; 110

krispy asked why people don't live to be 2000, this is the reason why:

Psa 90:10 The days of our years [are] threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength [they be] fourscore years, yet [is] their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Exd 20:12 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

It was God who declared the length of man's days and certain factors in our lives can effect our length of life, like not honoring our mother or father. And by the way it doesn't say if the deserve honor. Also if we drink the cup in an unworthy manner:

-------------------------------------------

1Cr 11:27 ¶ Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.

1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

-------------------------------------------------

The R.C. Ryle said that we should embrace sickness so if it is a blessing why not ask for cancer or some like it?

Now before you start screaming at me I have never followed the WOF folks, in fact I have steared clear of them. Name it and claim it really bothers me because it has no accountability. You can live any nasty way you want and still claim the promises. I am bothered by that. However I again would suggest you read "The Real Faith for Healing" by Charles Price. This is very old book so don't associate it with the man's picture that comes up on this site. The one who wrote this book was an old man.

His teaching was that we seek the healer, not the healing. This sets right with me because the woman with the issue of blood said it she could but touch the hem of His garment she would be healed. According to your faith be it unto you.

Now I know again the quote will be Paul accepting his thorn in the flesh. I say if God comes to you and tells you He wants to leave you the way you are after fully seeking Him then receive it and His grace will be sufficient for you and me. I have read Joni Erickson's testimony myself and God told her He was leaving her unhealed for a reason, so she accepted it. However until God tells me different I will take Him at His word "sozo" and press in to touch the hem of His garment.

I think part of the hinderence to healing, please note I said part, is that we don't press into God we press into healing. When we live in the light of His presence He life erradicates our infirmities, unless He has told us differently. The trouble is we don't dwell in His presence. We make little side excursions when we have time, but our other "priorities" take the cental throne in our hearts. I guarantee that when Moses and Jesus came down the mountain from the presence of God no infirmities were present in their bodies. Yes God did allow some to keep certain things either to keep them humble or as a reminder. I will accept that if I ever get to the place they did. Until then I will press into to God. I will search for intimacy with Him and know that His light will dispel any darkness that is in my life, including sickness. I have seen it happen time and again.

I take exception to the notion that people get sick because they lacked faith. The enemy of our souls puts sickness on us like he did Job, however God healed Job. I can tell you of times in my business when one of my employees comes up to me and says I have strep I need to be off work and immediately my throat begins to hurt. I say devil you are a liar. That sickness can't come on me that fast. I say Jesus made provision for me by His stripes and I stand on Your word Lord. And just as fast as the symptom came it leaves. I have walked in God's word for healing for over thirty years and it is true. Have I never stuggled, yes, but that doesn't change the word of God. When I touch Him I receive His healing.

If we would spend as much time on our faces worshipping Him and basking in His presence as we do on these computers we would experience that glory and would walk in more of the provision than we do. I am certain of it.

Last but not least, last night I went to hear missionary Heidi Baker speak. It was wonderful to hear someone speak who attibutes everything to intimacy with God. Their ministry is seeing healing, deaf, blind, dead raised, etc. Mark 16 stuff. Why?, because Heidi learned the secret that she could accomplish more in one minute after being in His presence "intimacy" than she could have in thirty years of working without it.

My pastor said " These signs will follow those who believe they will follow".

I can attest they do. At work I lay hands on the sick and "many" recover. Do all? I don't know, I do know that a number come back and tell me they were well, even of cancer.

I will do and believe the word. If God tells me for whateve reason He wants to leave me or someone sick and I'm sure it's Him then OK, but until then I am sozo'd

Ben/Goddamus,i have spent nearly all my adult life working with disabled people,elderly,brain damaged units etc..I got to be honest ur post is so frustrating (i'm being restrained)..

You've not answered the most important post on this thread,which was Krispys!! You've seemed to of glossed over Joni Erikson Tada ministry..A lady who seems to of been healed inside of bitterness,frustrations and what ifs..

I'm asking you directly is Joni ministry a second best ministry because shes not healed? Is she not living up to everything she could be,if only she was healed in UR opinion?

I will address it, I must have missed it.

My answer is yes, if the sick are not being healed, and saved, then it is second best to what God wants.

In this case it would be No. If the ministry is actively praying for healing, and just not seeing any, they must continue to be faithful to do what the word teaches, regardless of the outcome.

[b]If they do not, it is because they have unbelief, and fear of men.[/b]

according to this "God wants to heal everyone" new covenant thing, it is something that to me seems lacking whit that, if it should be like that that we could never be sick if we only had a strong faith, (still believe we get our faith from God, so indirect its Gods fault) but we still get sick? do you Ben ever catch a cold or something? when you do is your faith lower then? and if our faith isn't big enough to overcome a small decease how do we know we have faith that overcome sin? because to me if my faith is so week it cant beat a small cold or fever, it isn't something id rely on to get me to heaven... i just cant see that in scripture... can anyone explain that?

First of all, saving faith and healing faith are two totally seperate kinds of faith.

You are trying to combine to things into one, so as to prove that your unbelief is justified.

The scripture says: [b]"These signs shall follow them that believe..."[/b]

Signs and wonders are one proof of belief.

James says: [b]"Show me your faith by your works."[/b]

Faith in God to heal, is a faith in the word of God, a faith in His promises which are in the word, and a faith in His omnipotence.

Faith in God for salvation, is believing that Jesus Christ died, and rose again, and that He is the justification for your sin.

There is a man in the NT that says [b]"Lord I believe, I believe!"[/b] and then he suddenly realizes that his belief is not good enough, and says: [b]"Lord help Thou my unbelief!"[/b]
--------------------------------------------------
In asnwer to your question about when I myself get sick:

The answer is yes, my faith is low, what do I do? I cry out to God, help Thou my unbelief! Am I always healed? Not yet, but one day, I believe I will never get sick again.

Have you ever read about John G. Lake?
He taught on the subject of Divine Health, he never got sick, ever.

Not only that, there is a story about him in which he challenged some scientists to take the foam from the lungs of a dead bubonic plague victim, and place it in his hand, and put the microscope over the bacteria from the plague. He told them that as soon as the bacteria touched his hand, it would kill it.

What he said would happen, did happen, it killed the plague. That was when there was no cure for the bubonic plague.

You see, he was a man who had faith.

I believe with all my heart that God is going to turn this paper in front of me into a million dollars... instantly! Wait, it hasn't happened, it must be because of my unbelief ~ oh woe is me.

I believe with all my heart that God is going to cure my grandmother of her terminal illness... instantly! Wait, it hasn't happened, she passed away, it must be because of my unbelief - oh woe is me.

Wait, it could be because only a lunatic would think that he could turn white paper into a million dollars worth of bills instantly... why is it that the same isn't true of healing.

[b]James 4:3

3Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.[/b]

[b][u]You cannot relegate God's will to heal people based off of your own experience. It must come from the wrod of God, in which is found Christ's continual will to heal everyone.[/u][/b]

And so when I come across someone like Ben... my heart gets ripped out. It's like he is on one side of the Jordan, and I'm on the other. I know the truth about the land on this side, but he can't see it yet. But I've been on his side of the river, and I know the danger that is over there. And make no mistake... WOF is spiritual danger in the highest degree. But he doesnt see it. And thats where my passion for this comes from.

So you know Krispy, I do not agree with the WOF movement, they ere on many areas.

I have both had your opinion on the issue, and now have what is my belief on the subject.

I used to believe that it was God's will to heal sometimies, and other times not. I since spent my time dilligently rearching the issue, and found that it is always God's will to heal people, that does not mean that they are always healed. But that does not change the fact that He wishes them to always be healed.

This is not heretical doctrine. Heretical doctrine is to believe that our Father in heaven who gives good gifts, gets glory from making us sick, or diseased.

Healing is one of the ways that Jesus shows his glory on earth, but not the only way. He performed signs and miracles in Tyre and Sidon, but they were unbelieving. Jesus can heal someone who is in unbelief -just like the man lowered through the roof was healed by the faith of his friends.

Jesus, as I have already mentioned, the verse in Luke 5 which you have avoided, is said to have been filled with healing power at certain times, which also implies that he was not filled with healing power at other times, or chose not always to heal.

A lot of times healing is a first step for someone into the faith, like the woman with issue of bleeding -not an issue of faith in an ongoing relationship with Jesus. CS Lewis had to deal with 'the problem of pain' and I doubt very many would dispute his anointing.

Paul was sick, there were people sick in the early church (verses have already been provided to state this fact) timothy could have been blown over by a gust of wind.

[b]Ben, I really enjoy how you take Timothy's ephod, but not Timothy's cross[/b]! Timothy had an anointed ministry, but he was also weak in the flesh. He had a physical burden to bear in order to advance the work of the Gospel. Couldn't God have healed him and given him a strong body? Definitely! Do you think that Timothy lacked faith... well I'd like to see you argue that one.

You want all the blessings of Jesus, but none of the scourging! You want all the peace and joy, but none of the sufferings. Can you say with Peter, Paul, and the martyrs of the early church that you rejoice in suffering for the sake of the Gospel?

1 Peter 4:12-13
Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

1 Peter 4:16
However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

Christians are going to suffer, physical affliction, persecution, martyrdom. How many saints have died of diseases in the mission field? How many have been scourged for the sake of the Gospel? But for those saints, Jesus will [b]stand at the right hand[/b] of the thrown to receive them -and I also believe because he suffers with them, He wants to stop what is happening! But it is not according to his father's plan. The Father lets affliction happen in order to glorify his name -even in disease.

Jesus suffered affliction at Gethsemane, he bore the whole sin of the world on his shoulders, and sweated drops of blood... that's not a normal occurrence. There is a medical explanation, people can actually sweat blood, but it is an extremely rare medical condition, a sickness! Does that mean Jesus was sick? I know what your answer is going to be Ben, so I really don't know if this is even worth bringing up.

Matthew 13:14-15
… " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'

This is a spiritual healing and I pray you recieve it. [b]Jesus' main concern was healing people's calloused hearts[/b], not just their bodies... he healed people's bodies to give them bring them to the faith, he heals their hearts because of faith.

Dear Ben, we interpret the scriptures different,

you quote James "Show me your faith by your works."

this is true, but this is not only healing...many false prophets heal people too, so healing isn't "the" work that shows our faith...many people who did great miracles are not going to be in heaven...matt 7:22

that verse includes more than healing,

you wrote

so as to prove that your unbelief is justified

my faith is gift from God, if its not good enough for him why did he give in the first place? did anyone in the entire world get a "great" faith of himself? did John G. Lake have a method he used to get "big" faith? or did God give him his faith? i believe God gave him his faith,

and according to scripture how many different kinds of faith is there?

because you wrote

First of all, saving faith and healing faith are two totally separate kinds of faith,

i thought there only was one faith, and that in the risen son of God, Jesus Christ, can we have two faiths in him?

edit

By the way John G. Lake layed hands on about a thousand people before one got healed, but it didn't undaunt him about the fact healing was a part of the word. As he persevered he saw huge numbers healed, were all, no. However there are many factors as to why we don't receive healing, some of which I listed in my last post on this thread.

I feel it is a mistake to think that because some, including me, believe that healing is for God's children that those who don't recieve it are some how second class or faithless. I think the desire of my heart, and probably most, is for God's people to walk in health. If God has made such a awesome provision available to us why not partake of it?

Krispy I am saying it again cause the shoe fits (not you personally but just look at the consistancy of this thread)
Some need to press into Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal that Jesus is The Divine Healer. If you try to refute that Jesus is the Divine Healer you are going against Scripture...this is not a faith issue, but a Jesus as our Healer issue. Let's work on not mocking those who have a revelation of our Divine Healer.

edit

Brothers,

The gift of healing, of laying of hands is a dangerous thing! We need to have a pure and holy heart and proper motives to desire such a gift.

It is clear that there has been much bitterness on behalf of BenWilliams -very few would dispute that his words have been sharp and full of poison.

I have one verse that should be read in context, but please consider it:

Acts 8:23
[KJV]For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
[NIV] For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.
[NASB] "For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity."

Now please read it in context of Acts 8:9-25.

edit

Try without the mockery...Others can refute without the childish mockery.
Also please use theology to back up your agruments and not your subjective life examples

I'm sorry if i come across as mocking Ben, I'm not, I'm just curious what he believes and why he believes what he does.

i wont be participating in this thread any more, if i offended anyone I'm sorry about that.

God Bless you Ben and may Jesus Christ use you for his eternal glory ,

Healing is one of the ways that Jesus shows his glory on earth, but not the only way. He performed signs and miracles in Tyre and Sidon, but they were unbelieving. Jesus can heal someone who is in unbelief -just like the man lowered through the roof was healed by the faith of his friends.

I absolutely agree with this point.

Jesus, as I have already mentioned, the verse in Luke 5 which you have avoided, is said to have been filled with healing power at certain times, which also implies that he was not filled with healing power at other times, or chose not always to heal.

I'm sorry that I did not address that point, I kind of have had my hands full, as this topic has been in two threads, and this is not the only discussion I am involved in. I am trying to be as thourough as I can, but frankly, there have been about five to ten things I have to respond to on each thread, each time I get on. It's a lot to handle.

Anyhow, I will go ahead and address it as best I can:

The scripture does not say that Jesus was "filled with healing power at certain times".

What it does say is:

[b]Luke 5:17

17And it came to pass on a certain day, as he was teaching, that there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judaea, and Jerusalem: [u]and the power of the Lord was present to heal them.[/u][/b]

Is Jesus Christ the power of God in the flesh or not?

If you believe He is not, then it is obvious to me why you don't believe as I do.

If you believe that He is, then tell me when the power of God does not have the ability to heal?

And you must use scripture to prove when He doesn't.

(Just a little footnote to get you started in your quest for the truth.) Jesus told the disciples that if they had seen Him, then they had seen the Father. He was telling them that He was God in the flesh.

A lot of times healing is a first step for someone into the faith, like the woman with issue of bleeding -not an issue of faith in an ongoing relationship with Jesus. CS Lewis had to deal with 'the problem of pain' and I doubt very many would dispute his anointing.

Annointing, and faith are two different things. Faith grows by the hearing of God's word, Paul makes that clear in Romans.

Paul was sick, there were people sick in the early church (verses have already been provided to state this fact) timothy could have been blown over by a gust of wind.

Paul does not say he was sick, he says that it was a messenger of satan. The infirmity he mentions, is his weakness. Not a sickness, that is only an opinion.

I want anyone who wants to use this argument again to go look up what a "messenger of satan" means in the original language. Also look up the word "buffet". That might help you understand what Paul was actually talking about.

As for people being sick in the early church, when did I ever say that there were none? That isn't even a point of contention for me. They were sick, they lacked faith, so what? Jesus wasn't sick, and He certainly did not lack faith. And He is the example we are to model ourselves after primarily, and the disciples secondarily.

Paul says: "Emulate me, as I emulate Christ." Meaning if I don't emulate Christ, then don't emulate what I did.

Ben, I really enjoy how you take Timothy's ephod, but not Timothy's cross! Timothy had an anointed ministry, but he was also weak in the flesh. He had a physical burden to bear in order to advance the work of the Gospel. Couldn't God have healed him and given him a strong body? Definitely! Do you think that Timothy lacked faith... well I'd like to see you argue that one.

I think I answered this question above. But if not, yes, Timothy lacked faith. So what? Do you think the Apostles and everyone in the Bible is perfect, and has perfect faith?

I don't understand your point in bringing up Timothy's sickness, it does not say anywhere that it was to bring him closer to God, nor does it say that that was acomplished by that.

Christians are going to suffer, physical affliction, persecution, martyrdom. How many saints have died of diseases in the mission field? How many have been scourged for the sake of the Gospel? But for those saints, Jesus will stand at the right hand of the thrown to receive them -and I also believe because he suffers with them, He wants to stop what is happening! But it is not according to his father's plan. The Father lets affliction happen in order to glorify his name -even in disease.

Martyrdom is a different issue, and has nothing to do with sickness.

Sickness is not God's will for anyone, that does not mean that it does not happen, many trials come, what are they for?

It is for the trying of ones what? [b]Their faith.[/b]

Trials are to grow our faith, and if you give up, and lose faith, then it won't grow. Paul tells us to contend earnestly for the faith that was once given.

Jesus suffered affliction at Gethsemane, he bore the whole sin of the world on his shoulders, and sweated drops of blood... that's not a normal occurrence. There is a medical explanation, people can actually sweat blood, but it is an extremely rare medical condition, a sickness! Does that mean Jesus was sick? I know what your answer is going to be Ben, so I really don't know if this is even worth bringing up.

I only have one word, [b]Travail[/b]

Have you read Tozer's writings on the subject of Jesus travail? It might clear up the point.

What is more important than healing?

[b]Saving Souls[/b]
No disagreement there, I would abandone praying for someones healing in a second, if it meant the opportunity for a man's soul to be saved.

that verse includes more than healing

I agree, it was used only to make the point.

my faith is gift from God, if its not good enough for him why did he give in the first place? did anyone in the entire world get a "great" faith of himself? did John G. Lake have a method he used to get "big" faith? or did God give him his faith? i believe God gave him his faith,

What you said about your faith, is the point I was trying to make.

As for John G. Lake "getting a big faith" yes he did, he sought God, searched his word, believed God, sought his word, and he grew in his faith towards God.

God does not give men a measure of faith which they are stuck with for their whole lives. He gives them faith, and it is man's responsibility to excercize it. No pun intended.

and according to scripture how many different kinds of faith is there? because you wrote

First of all, saving faith and healing faith are two totally separate kinds of faith,

i thought there only was one faith, and that in the risen son of God, Jesus Christ, can we have two faiths in him?

That's not what I meant, I'm sorry I didn't clarify. I was trying to point out the difference in how a person believes for each thing, I guess I didn't do a good job of it.

I believe just as the scriptures say, that there is one Lord, one faith...etc...

I just didn't make my point properly, if you would like, I can try again, and try to explain what I was saying.

No, my friend... this is the result of the curse. This is where you err. Man brought sin and suffering on himself. God does not "get the glory" for that. Thats the same line of reasoning that says "a loving God would never send anyone to hell".

This is my whole point, the scripture says:

[b]"Jesus became a curse for us."[/b]

He took the penalty of sin upon Him for both the eternal, and the present. That includes the curse of sin.

It is God's will that we not be sick, does He allow people to be sick, yes. But He would rather that they be healed.

Also, show me in scripture where if someone isnt healed it is always God's "second best". You have never answered the Joni question... because you cant.

I did answer this question, I don't know which thread it's in, but I'll check, and give you what page it's on when I find it. I answered it, because I could.

I read a good article which I think used a few good verses to bring this into perspective: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-allow-sickness.html

This does not mean sickness is always from God or that God always inflicts us with sickness to teach us a spiritual lesson. In a world tainted by sin, sickness, disease, and death will always be with us. We are fallen beings, with physical bodies prone to disease and illness. Some sickness is simply a result of the natural course of things in this world. Sickness can also be the result of a demonic attack. The Bible describes several instances when physical suffering was caused by Satan and his demons (Matthew 17:14-18; Luke 13:10-16). So, some sickness is not from God, but from Satan. Even in these instances, [b]God is still in control. God sometimes allows sin and/or Satan to cause physical suffering[/b]. Even when sickness is not directly from God, [b]He will still use it according to His perfect will[/b].

It is undeniable, though, that God sometimes intentionally allows, or even causes sickness to accomplish His sovereign purposes. While sickness is not directly addressed in the passage, Hebrews 12:5-11 describes God disciplining us to "produce a harvest of righteousness" (verse 11). [b]Sickness can be a means of God's loving discipline[/b]. It is difficult for us to comprehend why God would work in this manner. But, believing in the sovereignty of God, there is no other option than suffering being something God allows and/or causes.

The clearest example of this in Scripture is found is Psalm 119. Notice the progression through verses 67, 71, and 75 - "Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I obey your word...[b]It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees...I know, O LORD, that your laws are righteous, and in faithfulness you have afflicted me[/b]." The author of Psalm 119 was looking at suffering from God's perspective. It was good for him to be afflicted. [i]It was faithfulness that caused God to afflict him[/i]. The result of the affliction was so that he could learn God's decrees and obey His Word.

I really like what Jeanette had to say about Job! That is an awesome insight and very similar to this article!

It is clear that there has been much bitterness on behalf of BenWilliams -very few would dispute that his words have been sharp and full of poison.

I have no bitterness towards anyone on any thread, I speak from experience, as I grew up a very resentful and bitter person, to the point that I hated even God.

So after having read what you asked, and examining myself, I can tell you with the utmost sicerity that I hold no bitterness, or resentment, or even dislike, for anyone in any of these threads.

I really am sorry that you feel that way, I do not consider it to be bitterness, to say what I believe, and then defend it. If it is wrong, I will admit it, but not one person has taken any challenge of scripture I gave them on this thread or the other.

And everyone continues to try to goad me with questions which are taken out of context, opinions of theologians which are not proveable by scripture, continuous goading about my age as though that has anything to do with anything, and many false accusations.

I have only addressed these issues, and refuted false accusations, and held people accountable to proper context, doctrine, and opinion. I have not once called anyone names, even though it has been done to me, and I have kept the utmost in civility in my posts.

Just because what I have said offends you, that does not give you the right to rebuke me as being bitter. What has offended you, has caused you to accuse me falsely once again.

I forgive you, and humbly ask that you would go to the Lord about this. - Ben

Your reply about Joni is shocking..I really see no point replying to this thread,your on a different planet from me..

Romans 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Why is it shocking?

Is it because it is not typical American Christianity?

Is it because you think it is somehow calloused of me to believe someone being sick, or lame, or paralized, is second best to God's will?

I say that it is wonderful of anyone, sick, lame, or paralized to serve God to the best of their abilities. But if they were to be healed, they could do far more for God than they could in an injured or diseased state. Praise God that they work for His service.

We need to remember it isn't all over until it's over. Ultimately Job was healed and one day Joni may be healed too.

We don't know the end until the end comes. God could be preparing someone with a healing gift to pray over her and set her free from her wheelchair. I do know she may decided she is happy where she is and stay there too. God can use whatever we commit to Him. It would just be wonderful to see her healed. It is also wonderful to see her serving God in her current condition.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I will say this... it is not God's will for us to be sinners. His original intent for us was the Garden.

Stop right there....we have it...we now know God's perfect will...it's for us to be free of sin...while being free of sin we would have perfect communion with God...in that no sickness...so in heaven, where there is an unhindered manifestation of God's will...there will be no sickness...so put faith debate aside and just look at God's will...God's perfect will is for there to be no sickness at all...so God's perfect will would be perfect health and anything else is not God's perfect will. (I know someone is bound to bring up OT scriptures where God sent plagues on Israel, but they were only sent when Israel was worshiping other gods. And if you question my motives read other posts)

You said " But if they were to be healed, they could do far more for God than they could in an injured or diseased state."

How do u know?

This as nothing to do with faith, it as everything to do with ur prejudices against disabled people..Your incapable of seeing them as whole,even when i have posted my friend and others feel completely whole as they are..

Have you ever considered these people don't want to be healed,that they consider they have nothing to be healed of,and definatly not to live up to your ideal of normal..Just because someone appears different to you,doesnt mean their body is not perfect to God as they are..

I'm not from America, but i'd say ur very American with its obsession with body perfection..

Please, everyone, look at Gods word. This is not the only reason but it is a major one.

1 Cor. 11:23-32
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: [24] And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. [25] After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. [26] For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. [27] Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. [30] For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [31] For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. [32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

James 5:14-20
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: [15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. [16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. [17] Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. [18] And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. [19] Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; [20] Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Mark 16:14-18
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. [15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. [17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; [18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

These signs shall follow them that believe.

Shall does not mean maybe, you either believe
and the signs confirm the word, or you don't and
you make excuses for your unbelief.

In His Love,

pastorfrin

Does this include people born with down syndrome etc..Are they sick? Or are they perfect as they are and a joy to God?.

To just make a blanket statement about healing, without any consideration to how God may see them is naive at the least,and a kind of spiritual gene selection at worse

A blanket statement here would actually be allowed while speaking of God's will on healing according to soley His Word. You brought up a sujective instance again and we as Christians cannot be moved by subjective instances. WE can only be moved by Gods Word. If I were to be healed of diabetes tomorrow that would not make Jesus the divine Healer just as if I were never healed and died from diabetes that would not make Jesus any less of a healer. Jesus is the Divine Healer b/c the Bible revealed Him as so. The blanket can now be laid over the question if it is God's will to heal. Again "heaven is the unhindered manifestation of God's Will"--Andrew Murray

I decided to delete what i wrote on this post..As a friend of a extremely disabled friend/boss,maybe i am to close to the situation,but i just feel entirely different to Ben's and others stances..

But im really trying my hardest not get into situations where I'm arguing with the body,so I'm stepping out of this thread..

cheers GB all
andy

My heart bleeds for you, because that spirit leaks out onto this forum via your postings, and my brother I have been guilty of such on more than one occasion.

ease up, show Grace, "your opinion", nobody cares about "your opinion". The only thing that really matters is Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, everything else is white noise and religious palaber.

I don't guess anything that I say really matters, I will still be called bitter by someone. May I state again, as I did once before, that I have no bitterness, or resentment, or dislike for anyone on this site. I grow tired from making a defence for myself. I am convinced that ya'll will believe what you want about me. And continue to accuse me of bitterness. But my heart is clean of that.

[b]I will always show grace to the humble, but law to the proud. We are not dicussing Jesus Christ and Him crucified, if we were, I would stay on that topic. Is this not a discussion forum? Why is everyone so afraid to discuss something as though they believe it?[/b]

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but when a person has posted, and has done so out of sincerity, and humility, I respond in the same way. When they rise up and rant, I remain humble, but unflinching. I don't non-controversialize a discussion so that everyone feels good about themselves.

You said " But if they were to be healed, they could do far more for God than they could in an injured or diseased state."

How do u know?

[b]Because then they have a testimony of the awesome power of our savior, and more glory goes to Him because of it.[/b]

Let's suppose for one second that a man is in a wheelchair for ten years, he's a Christian, and witnesses to his doctors, and the nurses etc.. He is the picture of a man who is glorifying God in his weakness, and then he dies one day, and goes to heaven.

Now let's suppose that we have the exact same situation, only instead of him dying one day, the Lord heals him. Now his doctors are forced to admit that there is a God who has power, everyone who he ever knew must now reckognize the power of God, and the witness that he now has shown is a far greater testament of God, than the other.

This as nothing to do with faith, it as everything to do with ur prejudices against disabled people..Your incapable of seeing them as whole,even when i have posted my friend and others feel completely whole as they are..

I am going to give you some scripture on this one, so that you can see that my "opinion" as everyone keeps calling it, is scriptural, and not just an opinion.

[b]Matthew 9:20-22

20And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:

21For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, [u]I shall be whole.[/u]

22But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; [u]thy faith hath made thee whole.[/u] And the woman was made whole from that hour.
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Matthew 12:13

13Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was [u]restored whole,[/u] like as the other.
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Matthew 14:35-36

35And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;

36And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched [u]were made perfectly whole.[/u]
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Matthew 15:28

28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter [u]was made whole[/u] from that very hour.
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Matthew 15:31

31Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, [u]the maimed to be whole,[/u] the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.
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Mark 2:17

17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, [u]They that are whole[/u] have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. --------------------------------------------------[/b]

In that last verse, it makes it obvious that Jesus thought that sick people were not whole unless they were healed.

I have no prejudice against people who are sick, or lame, or injured, I want them all to be healed, physically, mentally, and spiritually.

Have you ever considered these people don't want to be healed,that they consider they have nothing to be healed of,and definatly not to live up to your ideal of normal..Just because someone appears different to you,doesnt mean their body is not perfect to God as they are..

Yes, I have, and I feel sorry for them that they don't want what God has for them. That is not God's view of them, God sees their righteousness as perfect, not their bodies. That is a humanistic philosophy. This opinion is completely contrary to scripture, and has been formed, because of someone's unbelief somewhere along the line.

But I will say this, if they don't want what God can give them, that's between them and God. I just hope that they understand that they are refusing the gift of God, and His son Jesus Christ, our healer.

I'm not from America, but i'd say ur very American with its obsession with body perfection..

Nope, I don't have any obsession with perfect bodies, I just have an obsession with perfect faith.

I would like to ask everyone a question here, does anyone know what the process is for when iron sharpens iron?

Ben you said [b]"Because then they have a testimony of the awesome power of our savior, and more glory goes to Him because of it."[/b]

And a person who is content even with the most extreme disabilities with Gods grace isn't a awesome testimony?

You also said [b]"Yes, I have, and I feel sorry for them that they don't want what God has for them"[/b]

How ironic my friends have read this post and said they felt sorry for you..They wondered who needed the healing them or you!

edited ...Ok Ben u can reply but im not going to read it..You say ur all about God, but to me ur just causing frictions..God only knows how ur making disabled people feel who read this thread

aj

And a person who is content even with the most extreme disabilities with Gods grace isn't a awesome testimony?

I didn't say it wasn't an awesome testimony, what I said was that it is not as awesome a testimony, as someone who is healed.

How ironic my friends have read this post and said they felt sorry for you..They wondered who needed the healing them or you!

That's interesting.

aj said:

And a person who is content even with the most extreme disabilities with Gods grace isn't a awesome testimony?

I didn't say it wasn't an awesome testimony, what I said was that it is not as awesome a testimony, as someone who is healed.

Having been through illness, and experiencing it in my family, I can honestly say that we just can’t put these things into boxes. God is outside of the box. For me, it was when I was very ill, and certain that I was a dismal failure ( as far as being a testimony) that non-Christians saw and expressed the power of God through me and my faith.

For several years, for reasons that I gradually became aware of, illness WAS the BEST for me. God was building my faith in him. Then there came a time when God decided that health was the best for me. He healed me, miraculously.

I still believe that nobody has been nearly as moved BECAUSE of my healing, as they were through my weakness. And even now, it is not my strengths that touch people, but my own neediness, knowing that I walk the same vulnerable path that they do.
Even Paul recognized the value of weakness in himself.

We must always see others through God’s eyes, not through the eyes of our ideal expectations - of where we believe that others AUGHT to be at ex: ideal health, ideal faith or whatever. In fact, such lofty expectations put a terrible strain on the afflicted ones – even if they are not expressed out loud. I can remember being in the presence of those who thought or said that if I did something different, was less self-absorbed, had more faith, blah blah blah, then I should be healed. I was sensitive to their hidden thoughts, and trust me, their unspoken thoughts just made me feel sicker and more condemned. I was hard enough on myself, without being subjected to such burdens by well-meaning friends.

Mind you, through it all I learned that the only opinion that counted was God's. I needed to learn that he loved me dearly, just the way I was, and was indeed working in my life.

None of us lives out the ideal faith ourselves. So why should we be judging others by a standard that we cannot maintain!!

Something else to think about:
Don’t you wonder why Paul, who wrote such glorious words about standing strong in Christ, having victory in him, being free from the lion's mouth, etc was not freed from his chains - and even died in them?
Was Peter’s miraculous account – when the prison doors opening for him, a more glorious testimony?

Diane

Amen Diane an excellent post, and maybe the one to end this thread on!

aj

One of these who prayed for him accused him of lack of faith when nothing happened. Although deeply depressed he shot back, "I know I don't have any faith. I came to you because I thought you had faith!"

Wow!! Jeanette, These words ring so beautifully! That reminds me of a time many years ago when I was in a desperate search for a psychiatrist for one of my children who was collapsing emotionally under the strain of illness (diabetes, etc) and a sick mom. I phoned a well- respected semi-retired Christian child psychiatrist who lived 12 hours drive away. He seemed so perfect for our situation. And I really wanted a Christian. He said, “Get a doctor nearer, right away! (this was serious) YOU are the one with the faith, and YOUR faith is what’s important in this situation.

Indeed, there are times when those who too ill and emotionally weak simply CANNOT take on faith. And that is when we “bear one another’s burdens”, and we exercise faith on their behalf.

And, isn’t that just where prayer often takes us. God calls us to be involved in the very ones whom we pray for – to help lighten the load that they are collapsing under.
And when they are stronger, and can walk on their own then we can back off - and, in fact need to, in order for them to take their first wobbly steps on their own!

Diane

James 1:1-8
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
[2] My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; [3] Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. [4] But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. [5] If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. [6] But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. [7] For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. [8] A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

James 1:19-25
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: [20] For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. [21] Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. [22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. [23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

I know, this is only His Word!

"I don't like mirrors!" he thought.

Yours through Him,

pastorfrin

I think the bottom line to the whole healing issue is we need to be led by the Spirit of God. There may be someone people that the Holy Spirit may tell you NOT to pray for. It may not be a matter of little faith, but just maybe the afflicted person is harboring unforgiveness, or they need to make some restitution for something they've done.

I do believe that healing is for all, but just because someone is seeking healing does not mean he is 'qualified' (in a clear conscience) to receive it. A person can hid things from man, but not from God.

Just be led by the Spirit when ministering to people.

Dan

There may be someone people that the Holy Spirit may tell you NOT to pray for. It may not be a matter of little faith, but just maybe the afflicted person is harboring unforgiveness, or they need to make some restitution for something they've done.

Yet, Dan, I wonder, are you saying, that unforgiveness is not something that requires prayer? After al, most of the time unforgiveness (bitterness) is totally unconscious, and thus requires someone ELSE to pray into it.

Mind you, having said that, I would sure hate to attribute the lack of Spirit promptings to pray for one’s healing as an indication of unworthiness, or unwillness on the part of the afflicted.

Why - for several years, I KNEW without a doubt that I was not to pray for my own healing - not because I was resistant to God, but the contrary! I was WILLING to let him work in me in which ever way he wished.

Diane

Diane:

What I was saying was that sometimes we go to God looking for mercy and grace, when we ourselves may owe the same to another, and refuse to show it.

Dan

Well everyone, despite numerous attempts to disuade me from my faith, I still believe the same thing.

I believe that there is no evidence in the life of Jesus that His will is anything other than to heal everyone. No one has been able to bring evidence to the contrary.

I am tired of subjective arguments that are not relegated by scripture. And I am also tired of all the accusations. I know in my heart, and through the scriptures that it is not God's will to have a weak, sickly church who is lacking severely in the area of true faith.

I will admit to one thing however, the first post I left on the times square church thread. Was left because I was frustrated at the church I see today. Perhaps I shouldn't have been frustrated, but I don't believe that what I said was incorrect.

[b]I think more than two thirds of our church today would rather have a signing ministry, than a healing ministry. The reason is simple, no accountability to man or God, no accusations, no responsibility to be holy, no requirement of faith, because anyone who is trained properly can do it. And it only takes a few weeks to learn. But healing takes faith, and not many people ever excercise theirs.[/b]

So I'm sorry that I got under everyone's skin on this topic.

[b]If anyone has anything left to say on this thread, I will only respond to it if it contains scripture. And if it does not address my challenge to prove by the life of Christ that His will was ever anything other than to heal everyone, then I don't think I will respond to it.[/b]

I have made this challenge for the fifth or sixth time now, and no one has offered any biblical evidence for their theory. Other than what I have said here, I am done with this thread, unless someone will address this issue.

I will no longer comment on subjective material for this thread, as that is pretty much the only thing that anyone has offered so far.

I was reading a biography of Sadhu Sundar Singh this weekend and I noticed something... he got sick, a lot. He also experienced healing, a lot.

Sometimes he had to wait for the sickness to subside on it's own, sometimes it was healed, but it was always for the glory of God.

I really don't know how many saints' lives i have to bring to your attention, but I could continue to make a list to show that the vast majority of true believers have experienced sickness -it is not uncommon even with those of amazing faith!

Hey dorcas, I agree with almost everything you said, the only thing I have trouble with is that I do feel personally responsible when someone is not healed. Here's why:

I am a representative of Christ.

When I tell a person that God will heal them, and they are not healed, to me at least, I become very responsible. I have just told them something and then it didn't happen, most people call that lying.

I have heard all kinds of teaching on both sides of this, whether to feel responsible, or not. And I cannot help but feel responsible, I have tried to ignore it, but that feels like a lack of integrity to me.

So if I tell someone that Jesus said He would heal them, and then they don't get healed, I feel like to them it makes Christ a liar, and me a liar.

Any help on that one?

Hey Krispy, just so you don't feel left out or forgotten:

By the way, I did provide scripture and you ignored it, or re-interpreted it to fit your argument.

If I am not mistaken, the scripture you provided was the many vs. all thing right?

Well, nothing personal against you, just gonna state my opinion... I thought that that was a weak argument at best. Nowhere does it say that he didn't heal everyone, it only says he healed many. Here it is in context again.

[b][color=CC0000]Mark 1:32-3432And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

33And all the city was gathered together at the door.

34And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.[/color][/b]

Your whole argument is based upon the assumption that His healing many means He did not heal all.

Here I will say this about it, do you have another scripture to offer to balance this assumption?

Because I have many to put on my side of the scale that would assume toward the opposite.

I suppose my first question to you is to ascertain you are implying you have waited on the Lord for His word; He has given you His word that the person will be healed, but, by the time you have finished praying, there are no visible signs of it?

Is this the scenario you are describing?

Not really.

I believe it is God's will to heal everyone.

I do not believe it is God's will for me personally to pray for every sick or disabled or demon possessed person in the whole world.

So here is the situation, I feel the Holy Spirit's leading to go and pray for a persons healing, I tell them that the Lord can and wants to heal them, and then I usually tell them some stories of the power of God that I have seen to build their faith, and then I pray for them.

Sometimes they are healed, sometimes they aren't.

I will always address the issue of unforgiveness, or unrepented of sin if they are not immediately healed.

I know that some healings are instant, and some are gradual, I haven't seen many gradual healings, mostly instant or not at all.

So that is the scenario more or less.

Ben:

There is a difference between a healing and a miracle. A healing takes time, a miracle is instantaneous. Just because someone was not healed in a moment of time does not mean that the Lord didn't heal the person. It just hasn't manifested yet.

Read Acts 14:8-10, Paul perceived that the impotent man, while hearing Paul preach, had faith to be healed, so then Paul spoke to man and called out to him to stand up.

Smith Wigglesworth had a tremendous healing ministry. But on some of the cases, he had to pray first and get a direct unction, and direction from the Spirit of God before he ministered to the afflicted one.

Every case is different. We have to be sensitive to the afflicted one and the Spirit of God at the same time.

Blessings,

Dan

Hey LittleGift,

I'm always open to PM's or for the open forum.

Part of the debating forum that is difficult for me is that you'll get two or three guys who are just attacking you, and then there is another guy mixed in there who is trying to help, but he sounds just like the rest. I am honestly trying to discern the difference between them, but I was having a rough time because I was getting about 15 responses for every 1 that I was posting, I was having to answer them so fast that I did not get a chance to really spend time discerning the heart of each one.

I will try to take more time to understand the heart of each response so that I do not miss any intended help.

You were offended because someone "accused" you of bitterness. Actually bitterness is not anything to "accuse" anyone of.

Naomi called herself "Marah", "Bitterness" (Ruth 1:20 following). She was full of sorrow and loss and suffering. That is bitterness, this reaction to suffering. And you are obviously suffering greatly.

In this regard, I don't understand why they posted it then. I thought they were accusing me of the bitterness that comes from unforgiveness being harbored in ones heart. I grew up that way, very bitter towards my parents, my family, and then God became the object of my bitterness, I had so much anger towards all of these people. The Lord really did a marvelous thing in me, I don't get upset at that much any more, and God has given me nothing but love for all those people I hated.

I have lost any desire to reason or argue with you, and feel nothing but concern for your pain. It is far more important that you are healed, than who is right in the debate about healing.

Thanks.

This is not my full reply, but it is something for you to think about, especially with regard to those who have been chronically ill. The illness becomes part of their identity. They may have trouble parting with aspects of that identity - parting with their neediness. In these cases, there has to be a willingness to repent of not being willing to be changed, to repent of wanting to keep the pain.

This is an interesting concept, one I have toyed with before in my mind. Just to think that someone would rather be sick or disabled, than to be healed is completely unthinkable to me as you said.

Even the slightest cold or anything, and I am already going to God for healing, making sure my conscience is clear before God. And praying for the healing till I get better. Much less if something serious ever happened to me.

The original use of the word "bitterness" may have been an accusation, but only, I think, because you came over as so aggressive in your responses to those you disagreed with. (Which was probably why you "got two or three guys attacking you" - they probably felt you were attacking them!)

Well, if I'm not mistaken, another guy, krispy or somebody accused me of being bitter and spreading poisonous doctrine.

So I guess their windows were rattling after talking to me about all this.

In all honesty, I don't even remember when you accused me of anything. I'd have to go back and check. But I really don't see the point in that.

edit please dont respond if u did read it..thks

Hey Dorcas,

In response to what you said in your last post let me say this:

I try my best to wait upon the Lord, but I believe there are occasions where the Lord will not tell us which one of the forty people to pray for first in a service.

You see its kinda like this: If you are a parent, once you teach your child how to do something the right way, (the way you would do it) you don't want to tell them each time they do it how it needs to be done, you expect that they will be mature and take care of it just fine, and then as they mature even more, they will do it without even being told. It becomes a relationship of trust, rather than one of always being told what to do.

For further example, the Lord doesn't come tell you how to tell the truth anymore, because He has already taught you how. So you walk in authority in that area. I hope this is clear what I'm trying to say.

So in those situations where forty people need healing, want healing, I believe we should be as sensitive as possible to the Spirit, but I have been in those situations enough to know that the Lord does not always tell me what to do. He waits to see what I will do because He has already instructed me beforehand.

A well documented example would be of Smith Wigglesworth. (I know his stuff pretty well, so I generally use him a lot.) He used to say that "if he came into a meeting, and the Spirit wasn't doing anything, he would preach louder, and if the Spirit still wasn't doing anything he would start yelling, and he said he would keep at that until the Spirit started moving."

Not that we need to all start yelling until something happens, the point is that the Spirit was waiting on Smith to do something, and [b]I believe that one of the main reasons that we do not see more power in the church is because we are waiting on the Spirit, and the Spirit is waiting on us.[/b] So I believe it is an absolute necessity that we act, and when we do, the Lord will back it up with power.

[b]In the scriptures, you don't see where the disciples saw a lame man, and then they stopped, prayed to the Lord for guidance about how to pray for the lame man, and then approached him and prayed. I believe that is because they simply acted, they already knew the will of God concerning healing. So they were always ready.[/b]

Any thoughts on that? Sorry it was long.

[color=6600CC]Jam 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:[/color]

[color=6600CC]Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.[/color]

We need to take this scripture for what it says. Is any sick, how many? Any! We don't need to pray about what God has promised.

We need to pray about who we aproach, however if we call on the elders as written above, we can stand on this word. I believe we just don't understand it means what it says. Jesus still heals those who come to Him today to receive the prayer of faith through is ministers who believe.

These signs will follow those who believe they will follow.

Amen Goldminer

I'm not sure if you read my post through, particularly the scriptures, because you seem to be saying here that you'd rather take the example of how humans teach their children than how the Father taught His Child.

I don't understand, I thought that this is the way God teaches us. The closer I have gotten to Him, the more He has treated it as a relationship of trust. Not just with healing, but with every area. Kinda like once He reveals something, like His power to heal people, He expects me to walk it out in reality.

So at first He teaches me, then He lets me do it myself(not without His power of course). And only when He really wants to do something special does He begin saying something new.

I know you are not just chucking an opinion at me that you haven't thought about, and I'm not returning a shallow one to you either. I don't have experience of beginning to pray for forty people, but I've learned when I pray for anyone (and not just for healing), to wait on the Lord first, and simply pray what He gives me. He has never failed to give me something particular. This includes the times He has put it in my heart to pray for what is probably closer to a miracle than a healing.

In my personal opinion, a healing is a miracle. The only difference in the two that I find in scripture is that when things like Jesus turning water into wine happen, its refered to as a miracle. But then so are quite a few healings.

And, I honestly believe that if you try doing it this way, the faith will be there for you and the other person, for what He wants to give. This way, we keep in step with Him.

See and what I am saying is that this is the example I have always followed, but I wonder if I wouldn't see more mighty things happen, by just stepping out in faith? The Lord is not going to leave me there hanging in mid air I don't think.

Hey Dorcas,

I think you are misunderstanding how I do operate concerning these things. My way has been so far exactly what you have described. But I feel as though it is severely lacking in some way.(I just don't know what)

I totally understand what you are saying, and that is what I have always done, and still do. But so often I just feel like God wants to heal everyone that needs to be prayed for. So where do I go when I feel that leading of "I want to heal everyone"?

If God speaks in a general way rather than a specific way. And remains silent when we press Him for specifics, what do you do? Do you go away and fast for a while until He answers? Or do you step out on the general leading you feel, and just begin to pray for the people?