"Prosperity Movement"

Since the term "Prosperity Movement" gets thrown around a bit on this site, I would appreciate hearing peoples opinions of what that term means to them. What does it mean to you? Perhaps a breif history and definition. Please be specific.

ToddI have only had a little exposure to Prosperity With a guy called Dr Tayo who operates out of London. Basically it is a Gospel that takes the promises of God and overplays them ie it overplays them suggesting that the Christian should expect to be bless in abundance.A example might be from the psalms " He daily loads us with benefits" to a prosperity teacher this will be material wealth. To the discerning it can also be the exact opposite as troubles and scarce resources make us rely on God and at the same time are used in the onging sanctifciation.St Pauls account "I am content" in whatever state I am in and his shipwrecks and hardship must be a real pain to Prosperity teachers.The sad thing is people who give to these guys so that they can "reap" a return. A real twist on giving your all to Christ. If you give it should be done for Christ not to get multiples back.I would suggest that if you have anyone stuck in a prosperity church that you give the a copy of"ten shekels and shirt".Dr Tayo whom I mentioned spent a half hour before he spoke (preached!) selling his tapes and books.He also had two young brothers who he literally treated as his servants, they carried his bible ironed his shirts, folded his hankies, and had to hand him a freshly made cup of coffee as he stepped off the alter. It was so sad to watch.sadder was that so many bought his books the conference was only saved from disaster because the next speaker was Pastor Carter from TSC, and boy did the Holy Spirit redirect His people.

The prosperity movement is a manifestation of the faith movement. The underlying thesis is that faith is evidenced in material consequences. In this scheme of things a man with a little faith, will have a small bank balance, a small house and a small car. The man with more faith will have a larger bank balance, a larger house and a larger car. The man with great faith will have a great bank balance, a great house and a great car.If this reasoning is correct Our Lord Jesus had no faith at all, as he had neither bank balance, car nor roof over his head. I rest my case.

Hear! Hear! Ron!Wonder what they would do with this:From ye old Websters 1828 DictionaryProsperityPROSPER'ITY, n. [L. prosperitas.] Advance or gain in any thing good or desirable; successful progress in any business or enterprise; success; attainment of the object desired; as the prosperity of arts; agricultural or commercial prosperity; national prosperity. Our disposition to abuse the blessings of providence renders prosperity dangerous.The prosperity of fools shall destroy them. Prov 1.Personally, what does it mean to me?Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.What does it mean to them? An example, not verbatim...'I was telling Taffy the other day, ...it dawned on me, did you realize we are millionaires?' Creeflo DollarAt who's expense?Oh, this is a hot button with me, manipulating Gods word, manipulating people...the audacity of these people. Have heard every stinking con and clever trick in the book from the likes of these. Was ignorantly caught up in this early on, seed faith, formulas...this is from the pit of hell.Dare them to preach this in some poor 3rd world country.Fleecing the flock...They should be trembling with fearMat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. Joh 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. Is it any wonder?

Todd,Which part of history do you mean? Do you want to talk about Balaam who prophesied against Israel for money? What about those who propheised in Isaiah's time. He lamented that the people said not to prophecy right things, but smooth things. How about the peace and prosperity preachers during the reign of King Josiah who opposed the ministry of Jeremiah?What about those whom Paul warned about in 1st Timothy where he prophesied that these minsiters would teach that gain is godliness? Or Jude? Or Revelations warnings to Laodicea? They said they had become rich and were in need of nothing. Yet they were naked and ashamed.How about the middle ages? The Catholic Church sold indulgences and guarenteed forgivenvess for a price. It was the proverbial straw that sparked the protestant reformation. In the 1700's and 1800's they were called religious hucksters.But I think you're wanting to talk about recent history. Well, while you can find multiple sources, the primary source would probably be E.W. Kenyon. He was plagarized by the late Kenneth Haggin. Oral Roberts speerheaded the "seed-faith" teaching. And Kenneth Copeland became their poster-boy for a time. But I don't think it's history that's as important as the principle of this teaching. Does it stand up to scripture, no. The purpose of a Christian on this earth is to glorify Christ in a fallen world. We are to be sojourners in a foreign land looking for better home that is everlasting. Our faith is not to be spent on earthly riches but on heavenly ones. Prosperity ministers can't get their eyes on heaven because that's not where their treasure lies. Their faith, or lack of it, is totally measured by the vanity of this world. What they possess becomes the measure of their faith. One minister even teaches that to be poor is to be ungodly. I can't think of his name right off hand, but he was popular for teaching the "hundred-fold blessing." That is diametricly opposed to the Gospel! (hey crsschk, this one gets my blood boiling to...lol) Our faith is not measured by material things, but by our possession of Christ! If Jesus lives in my heart I'm a new creature, all things are made new. And if I'm poor, well praise God, and if I'm rich, well praise God, it's all gonna burn anyway. Let me live for Christ alone. William Booth told his salvation army that, "Our business is Heaven on earth." Let us live as such.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

My parents were saved almost 20 years ago and at the time were very poor with three young children and another on the way...They went to a prosperity church a few times, but praise the Lord that He gave them discernment to leave right away, especially because as young Christians, its easy to be naive to false teaching. They just knew that something was off...I don't know any more about the modern prosperity movement than has alreay been posted, but i have a few more questions:How widespread is it? I hear that it is spreading all over the world, is this true? Shouldn't there be more christians speaking out against it, especially in charasmatic/pentecostal type circles? I have heard a few speak out, such as David Wilkerson and maybe there are more that I just haven't heard...One thing is for sure, the Bible has given us PLENTY of warnings against false teachings so there is no reason for us to be surprised. It seems like many people associate this type of teaching with all charismatics/pentecostals, which is obviously wrong. I know from personal experience that people shy away from the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, in part because of this kind of teaching. (along with abuses in the name of the Spirit, which tend to go along with prosperity/word of faith teachers)What a clever scheme of the devil...he gets people to throw out the baby with the bath water. We need more "John the Baptist" preachers in the church preaching repentance...Until then, I don't think we will see any positive change in the state of our lukewarm church...In Christ, Jake Kail

Since the term "Prosperity Movement" gets thrown around a bit on this site, I would appreciate hearing peoples opinions of what that term means to them. What does it mean to you? A hearty Amen to all thats been said,The properity/faith word movement has distorted scripture and often its preachers take scripture completely out of context and emphasise complete falsehoods and definitions.Also Guilt plays havoc with people who are told that God is like this.Is the charecter of Christ as they say? No I'm afraid you will not find meakness and servanthood hallmarks of this movementAlso what about Paul the apostle..in his times of trial and lack did he lack faith? no of course not but through high mountain and low valley we take on more of the glorious lamb like qualitiesLooking ahead & UpDelboy

Also there fixation on Abraham is distorted, please anyone look at the Abraham weekly studies on this site for genuine faith building.the same is said of any false movement it mixes clear truth with heretical un truths which makes discernment the more harder for someMany large churches springing up over here in the Uk are preaching a very Self focused gospel.Maybe thats why they are popular?Looking ahead & upDelboy

Thanks all, for participating in this study. Greg wrote:"Todd, I hope your question is out of clarification for others and not yourself. As far as I know you I respect that you are seeking after truth and righteousness, and depise dross and false teachings and unrighteousness."Well, to be honest, I guess it's more for me. I hear the term a lot, but it's very vague to me. And since I don't really know what it means and it's not easily definable (still hoping for a clearer definition), I don't know how or where to spot it. So I don't know if it's real.Who is to draw the line and say "You are too focused on prosperity"? According to who? As far as I can tell, God didn't draw any clear lines and say, "You can only preach about prosperity 3 times per year. If you preach 4 or more times, you are officially thrown into the category of 'Prosperity Movement' and you are teaching falsehood and it's an abomination to Me." Like I mentioned before, I guess I don't know how to discern this apparently false teaching. I mean, does God have nothing to say about this subject? Would anyone here say that it is false to ever preach about prosperity? Or, as Greg seemed to indicate, is it more a matter of focus that makes it false? I would tend to agree that if the pastor talks exclusively about prosperity every Sunday for an entire year, something is probably wrong. But even then, how do I know? And as an outsider (in the sense that I don't know the pastor or the people that go to the church), do I have any right to critisize unless God specifically directs me? After all, could it not be possible, in theory, that God has directed the pastor in this way? That, perhaps, this church is under a curse of poverty that God wants broken and due to the fact that weak and broken humans are involved it is taking this prolonged effort? And if this is possible, even if we can only accept it in theory, what right have we to ever point the finger? Sure, we can muse about ideals like "Christians shouldn't care about money or material things", but it seems to me that the reality is that God uses money for His purposes and He is pleased to find people who are able to deal with it wisely and use it for HIs kingdom. And that He likes giving them more besides. I guess what I am looking for is a tangible theory that I can put my hands on (so to speak) and see how it fits. Something that is testable. Because it seems possible to me that we are dealing with some ghost concept that has conveniently become a scapegoat and excuse for a weak Church.

I hear the term a lot, but it's very vague to me. And since I don't really know what it means and it's not easily definable (still hoping for a clearer definition), I don't know how or where to spot it. So I don't know if it's real.Here are some statements that might help define prosperity teaching. These aren't actual verbatum quotes, but the basic ideas of prosperity theology as I know it:-If you are walking with God and have faith you will be rich and always be healthy. Being sick or poor shows lack of faith, or sin in your life.- There are some "spiritual laws" that must happen, just like gravity is a natural law that just happens. So if you give a certain amount of money you are bound to recieve a blessing in return.- I have heard the audio of Benny Hinn mocking Job's comment "The Lord has given and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." He then went on to say that the Lord gives and the Lord NEVER takes away and that what Job said was "unscriptural."-Prosperity teachers teach that a Christian should have no trouble in there lives, or no hard times. These again are a sign of sin or lack of faith.In essence, your spiritual life is judged by your material "blessing." The truth is, these teachers are crooks and decievers who rob the poor to feed on the greed of there flesh. Listen to Peters warning: "But there was also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies....Many will follow there shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In there greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up." (1 Peter 2:1-3) Then in verse 14 he says, "With eyes full of adultry, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed- an accursed brood." and he goes on and on...These teachers are filthy rich and they have distorted the Word of Almighty God in order for dishonest gain...It makes me shudder to think about what there end will be (1 Peter 2:3,21)...What will they say when they stand before the one who's "eyes are like blazing fire." They will find out that there wealth is worthless on the day of wrath(Proverbs 11:24)Jesus said it as plain as can be. "No one can serve two masters....You cannot serve both God and money."Here are some other verses to check out: Ecclesiasties 5:10, Proverbs 11:28, Proverbs 28:6, 1 Timothy 6:3-10 1 Timothy 6:17-19, Psalm 37:16, James 1:9-10 and there are many more... Who is to draw the line and say "You are too focused on prosperity"? According to who? As far as I can tell, God didn't draw any clear lines and say, "You can only preach about prosperity 3 times per year. If you preach 4 or more times, you are officially thrown into the category of 'Prosperity Movement' and you are teaching falsehood and it's an abomination to Me." There is no room in the church of Jesus Christ for such teaching, it should rather be rebuked in the name of the Lord....Do you know what the sin of Sodom was: "She and her sisters were arrogant, overfed, and unconcerned." (Ezekiel 16:49) Sounds like much of the church today....when will we wake up...."Their silver and gold will not be able to save them in the day of the Lord's wrath." -Ezekiel 7:19Todd, I hope that this gives you a better idea of what the "prosperity movement" is all about. May the Lord give you discernment about these matters.In Christ, Jake Kail

That, perhaps, this church is under a curse of poverty that God wants broken and due to the fact that weak and broken humans are involved it is taking this prolonged effort? Todd I personally do not think that any new testament new covernant believing church can be under a curse of poverty especially here in the rich westyour last post raises many questions that you have.Can i suggest that you search the scripture and the Lord will settle truth in your heart.Also look at paul's words in 2 Corinthians ch 8 and what he says about the Macedonian fellowshipsI have recently discussed on this site about the book 'the heavanly man' by brother Yun.The chinese seem to thank God for the hardships as this is where they see growth and strength born, these things are so interesting...looking ahead & upDelboy

Thanks for helping me. I think I am getting a clearer understanding.Jake, let me comment on each of your points:1. "If you are walking with God and have faith you will be rich and always be healthy. Being sick or poor shows lack of faith, or sin in your life."I wonder if any so-called "prosperity teacher" would agree with this claim as stated. I doubt it. If you could find any quotation (with full context) of someone saying this that would be helpful. This is too general and blunt. I think it might be more accurate to say:"If you are walking with God and have faith you can be rich and always be healthy.However, you may experience various degrees of lack in these areas as a direct result of commitment to Christ. Being sick or poor, if not a direct result of commitment to Christ, is likely an indicator of a lack of faith in these areas, sin in your life, or a curse."Would you agree with that?2. "There are some "spiritual laws" that must happen, just like gravity is a natural law that just happens. So if you give a certain amount of money you are bound to recieve a blessing in return."If you consider God honoring His word a "spiritual law" then I think this is an accurate statement. When God says "If you do this, I'll do this" I think it's correct to say that what God says will happen. Don't you? For example, if God says "He who gives to the poor will never want, but he who shuts his eyes will have many curses" (Prov. 28:27), I think it's correct to say that if you give money to the poor you will, for sure, receive the blessing of never wanting. Right? I think where a lot of misunderstanding occurs is, as Sparks would say, trying to "crystalize" this into a doctrine. I think we are to just leave this truth there with some mystery surrounding it, and at the same time declare God's word to be true, though evey man be found a liar. 3. "I have heard the audio of Benny Hinn mocking Job's comment "The Lord has given and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." He then went on to say that the Lord gives and the Lord NEVER takes away and that what Job said was "unscriptural."I would be very interested to view this in context. I assume that there is more to this than meets the eye (without context).4. "Prosperity teachers teach that a Christian should have no trouble in there lives, or no hard times. These again are a sign of sin or lack of faith."I guess we would have to clarify here. Unless the "trouble" is a direct result of commitment to Christ, I think this might be correct.I think it's the absence of a disclaimer like "unless a direct result of commitment to Christ" that causes a lot of misunderstanding here. People who didn't have the perfect words to express what they found to be truth, and perhaps focused too much on it (which might be understood as a reaction to the finding of a long lost truth). I think some of these folks found keys to the blessing of God that they wanted to share. Maybe some have taken this truth to far, tried to crystalize it into doctrine, and/or focused too much on it. But I think there might be much truth here. What do you think of this verse:"...He who trusts in the LORD will prosper" (Prov. 28:25).I see it like this: If you trust in the LORD you will absolutely live a life of prosperity, of more than enough, of abundance. You might have leanness in a wordly sense (as a direct result of commitment to Christ), but you will be "fat" in God (and you also may very well have "fatness" by the world's standards as well). I think of Paul always rejoicing even though he seemed to live a hard life. To him it was abundant.Delboy,Quote:"Todd I personally do not think that any new testament new covernant believing church can be under a curse of poverty especially here in the rich west."Ok. I guess at this point I differ with you in opinion here."Can i suggest that you search the scripture and the Lord will settle truth in your heart."Sure. But this is kind of a tricky topic and this is helping me I think. And, to be honest, I do feel pretty settled in my heart about this. But I am open to change and haven't really been challenged a lot in this area (I haven't discussed it much). And I also feel that I get a better understanding by trying to explain what I think and interacting with others. As iron sharpens iron.Quote:"Also look at paul's words in 2 Corinthians ch 8 and what he says about the Macedonian fellowships"Thanks. Yeah, I think this is a very relevant chapter when discussing the "material vs. spiritual prosperity" aspect of this discussion. It might be good to get into this more but let me just make a couple comments right now. 2 Corinthians 8:2:"that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality."I think it's key that the Macedonian believers had "abundance of joy" in the midst of their poverty. Without this, I think it's probably not God's will. I understand "their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality" as "the result of their deep poverty (coupled with abundant joy) was their wealth of liberality." I think that this might mean that they were liberated in the realization that they don't need material wealth to be happy. God might have allowed this situation in order to bring them to a higher level of maturity and actually a higher level of blessing which is the freedom of knowing that you don't need money to be content (and, in their case, to be abundantly joyful).This is actually a perfect example of being blessed by giving, as discussed above. They were blessed with a new level of liberty. Why? Because they gave, gave, gave of their own accord (verses 3-5). In faith, they freely chose to give, knowing that God will supply all they need, and the reward was the blessing of liberty. 2 Corinthians 8:9 "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich."The point is that we can be rich. As I see it, Christ's death gave us access to the infinite bank of heaven, and by faith we can make withdrawls. I think this verse is primarily talking about the spiritual aspect , but it also may include materially. As far as the Chinese giving thanks for hardships... If it's from God then this is great, if it's from the devil, we can overcome. Looking forward to more discussion here.

Todd,your reply does show that iron sharpens iron,its good to discuss these issues so long as they lead us to HimI hope you are not offended, i did not want or intend to come over as arrogent when i said "search the scriptures etc.That really was not my intention.The Lord will show us if we are not blinkered in any way and not only in this subject alonejust a thought,I dont see the prosperity/faith movement springing up in the third world or Asia & China etc it seems popular and rooted in the westto be honest there are greater topics to spend our time on...I pray you settle this issue at your pace. but settle you should for the bridegroom is comming :-)

A perspective:http://www.jimbakkershow.com/word.html

If you have the time and inclination, Greg has a message I gave which touches this topic called Hezekiah quite a time ago. God does want you to be prosperous.

hi todd my name is mark. if i mess up on spelling i hope you'll forgive me. anyway prosperity movement, first you should listen to david wilkerson's the reproach of the solemn assembly. well it comes down to is prosperity preaching of God or baal. i have a friend named chris and he is in love with this teaching. he told me that he hoped to have so much wealth that people could walk up to him and ask how he got that way. so through prosperity he would say God blessed him. so the sinner would come to the cross because he see's this man of God is blessed and so can he if he gets saved. lets look at the reasoning for the sinner finding God, prosperity. not because he was found guilty of commiting sins against a holy God and that he should go to hell forever but because he wants to have prosperity. could you see Jesus saying, "hey you should get saved because i'll make you rich. oh you sinned, who cares, just get saved and i'll make it worth it to you in worldly riches."( by the way Jesus wouldn't) God forbid anyone teaching such ah way. How about focusing on what really matters wither your guilty of God's wrath or saved by grace. Jesus himself said lay up treasures in heaven not on earth. why would we conform to other ways of reaching the lost than that they are sinners. well now to the teachings of baal, peace and prosperity or gain if you will. what does Jeremiah say on the matter, "For from the least of them even unto the greatest of everyone is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely." (Jerem 6:13) a better meaning of covetousness in the niv is gain. all they want is gain. you want to know what God said he would do to them, in verse 30, same chapter, he says he hath rejected them. he told Jerem in 7:16 that don't pray for them because i won't hear you. God said he would consume them in Jerem 8:13. that means he will destroy them. haven't we learned from history yet or must we test God like them. these words scare me because they are taking from everyone saying i should get this because i'm God's but they don't seem to like to hear words like this in Jerem. well alot of people say that is the old testament so lets look at what Paul said about gain. 1 Tim 6:3-5 says that if they suppose that gain is godliness they are proud, knowing nothing, destitute of the truth, you get the picture. the last part sticks out the most of verse 5, " withdraw thyself". but Paul goes on in verses 6-10 to say we brought nothing into this world so we can't carry anything out. and you can read the rest yourself. lets go back to preaching about things that matter like holiness, being righteous, seeking God, prayer, preacing to the lost. these things bring you closer to God. Give me those things and I'll blessed. God bless you Todd for taking the time to reading what God has placed on my heart. if you are offened i just quoted the Bible. May God show the truth in these last day's. and may we repent as ah nation for teaching such things.

Thanks for the additional information. Maybe I will have time someday to take a good and fair look into all of it. I would near have to write a book to read, listen, digest, and comment on all of the information presented (i.e. Jim Bakker article, "Hezekiah", "Reproach of the Solemn Assembly"). Instead, could you guys do a little extra work to help me out and bring forth whatever you think is most relevant to where the discussion is at at this point? For instance, how might you comment on or challenge what I have said most recently (perhaps using those sources mentioned)? I would rather dialogue with you in real time than a message you have heard (or in Ron's case given ;-) ). Mark, I have listened to some of David Wilkerson's teachings concerning these things. I think I have listened to that sermon you recommended. Perhaps you could bring forth what you find most relevant to where we currently find ourselves in this discussion. That would be very helpful.Quote:"well it comes down to is prosperity preaching of God or baal"Says who? I don't see why this is the case. Please support this idea. To me that seems a lot like the arguments "tongues is from God or the devil" or "all music either comes from God or the devil." I think there's a lot more to it than that. Quote:" i have a friend named chris ..."It sounds like your friend has an unhealthy and distorted understanding of this subject. But that doesn't make the subject itself wrong.Quote:"could you see Jesus saying, "hey you should get saved because i'll make you rich. oh you sinned, who cares, just get saved and i'll make it worth it to you in worldly riches."( by the way Jesus wouldn't)"Even though you answered the question for me, I will agree that it is clearly "no". And I don't know of anyone who would teach that. Do you? If so, be specific. QUote:" well now to the teachings of baal, peace and prosperity or gain if you will."I think all of these teachings are found in the New Testament (that is peace, prosperity, and gain).Quote:"what does Jeremiah say on the matter, "For from the least of them even unto the greatest of everyone is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely." (Jerem 6:13) a better meaning of covetousness in the niv is gain. all they want is gain. you want to know what God said he would do to them, in verse 30, same chapter, he says he hath rejected them."I think it's clear that God is dealing with a rebellious people in this passage. A people who are trying to "gain" outside of God's ways. So I don't think it really applies. As Paul tells Timothy "but godliness actually is a means of great gain, when accompanied by contentment" (1 Timothy 6:6). Gain is not a bad thing, but it can ge sought after in an unhealthy way (that is, without contentment I guess). I think 1 Timothy 9 is really important too. It says "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction." and then in verse 10 "for the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil." It's the love of money that's the problem, not the money itself. If you can handle it in a godly way, it's good and a blessing (as far as I can tell).

hey todd, you been good today? God has been so great to me. thank you for taking the time to read the passages God laid on my heart to share with you. before going on with the conversation of prosperity can you answer me these two things. 1st do you think that if you look poor or in fact are poor, your not in God's will? 2nd do you think Jesus would be preaching this himself if he was here. sorry i have another question, 3rd, does it save souls? and if so what is the reason for conversion? well i guess that was 4 questions. may we as christians become more like Jesus and less like ourselfs. God bless you Todd!

Todd, alot has been recommended to you surely enough evidence to say "prosperity/faith teaching you are guilty as set out before us"would'nt mind your thoughts on poverty as has been raised by others? Also do you have any view on this quote from previous postjust a thought,I dont see the prosperity/faith movement springing up in the third world or Asia & China etc it seems popular and rooted in the westsettle this quick dear brother

Mark, Quote:"do you think that if you look poor or in fact are poor, your not in God's will?"I think you must not have closely read my other posts. I feel I have already touched on this. But to answer quickly I will say "not neccessarily."Quote:"do you think Jesus would be preaching this himself if he was here"This seems like one of those dangerous hypathetical questions that I don't feel it's wise to get into. I also am not sure what you are referring to as "this." Maybe if you clarify for me I will try to comment. Quote:"does it save souls? and if so what is the reason for conversion?"Does what save souls? Teaching about prosperity? If you are talking about the true meaning of salvation (sozo) which I understand as wholeness for the spirit, body, and soul (i.e. salvation, healing, and deliverance) then I guess it might possibly help in the deliverance area (which would refer to "sav[ing] souls" as you put it, because deliverance deals largley with the soul realm, though I am thinking this might not have been what you were looking for) if there is a curse (esp. of poverty) going on. I hope that made sense. Delboy,Quote:"Todd, alot has been recommended to you surely enough evidence to say "prosperity/faith teaching you are guilty as set out before us"I guess I don't share your opinion here. Can you support this statement for me so I can get a clearer understanding of why you think you can make such a claim? What evidence? QUote:"would'nt mind your thoughts on poverty as has been raised by others? Could you be more specific? I feel like I have shared some of my thoughts in this area.Quote:"Also do you have any view on this quote from previous postQuote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------just a thought,I dont see the prosperity/faith movement springing up in the third world or Asia & China etc it seems popular and rooted in the west--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"I don't know if I would call it a "view" at this point. But I have some thoughts. First of all, how good of a grasp do you have of teaching movements in the 3rd world? I have very little so I don't know if the issue you pose is accurate at all. I also don't really understand the direct connection between teaching about prosperity and the faith movement. Are they really interchangable as your "/" implies? Or is it that teachers in the "faith movement" (equally as vague to me as the term "prosperity movement") seem to teach about prosperity more than other streams within the Church? Futher, it makes perfect sense to me that it would be more popular in the place where it originated and where information travels so fast, etc, as opposed to the third world. I see multiple possibilites why this would be the case (if it is in fact true). The largest church in the world (in Korea), also comes to mind. I think this church would probably be considered a part of these elusive movements we speak of. But I don't know if Korea is considered third world. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on that.Quote:" settle this quick dear brother"What's the hurry? I think it will almost always lead to deception or misunderstanding to try and figure these things out in a hurried, hasty manner.

I suggest that we clarify the original question before we start defending or attacking our own idea of the "prosperity movement". It is clear from this thread that understanding varies.The original questions are still good: (1) Characterise what constitutes the "prosperity movement" and who its primary proponents are today. (2) What is the (brief) history of the "prosperity movement"?It would also help to cite direct sources of the movement's proponents when you criticise or defend them. Otherwise, it is quite easy to build up what philosophers call the "straw man argument" (misrepresent one's arguments and then attack).

Todd, alot has been recommended to you surely enough evidence to say "prosperity/faith teaching you are guilty as set out before us"Hi Todd, when I meant evidence this was in view of the post replies given to you already. This is overwhelming to give you a clear view.Agent001 saysIt would also help to cite direct sources of the movement's proponents when you criticise or defend them. Otherwise, it is quite easy to build up what philosophers call the "straw man argument" (misrepresent one's arguments and then attack). I think that from Todd's first thread that peoples spiritual discernment has come through rather than specific quotes.(in respect to the prosperity error we are talking about)If specific quotes are wanted this then takes the thread on to another directionThis of course is fine but more involved.Can i Suggest we review the articles and preaching sermons given in previous posts from clutch,sermonindex and philologos :-)

I think Agent001 is on the right track if anyone is truly interested in getting at any truth here. I definately understand if some of you don't want to invest the time and effort to do that, but I think it is a good idea. Quote:"It would also help to cite direct sources of the movement's proponents when you criticise or defend them. Otherwise, it is quite easy to build up what philosophers call the "straw man argument" (misrepresent one's arguments and then attack)."Thanks for that insight. I think this "strawman" gets at the idea I wrote earlieras a "ghost concept that has conveniently become a scapegoat and excuse for a weak Church." Could the scapegoat be a strawman? I think it might be the case that most people are looking at a strawman when they think about this prosperity thing. That has pretty much been my experience in the past and seems pretty accurate to this thread. Hopefully we can be more specific from here on out as to avoid critisizing something that doesn't even exist.QUote:"Hi Todd, when I meant evidence this was in view of the post replies given to you already. This is overwhelming to give you a clear view."I don't see it as even close to overwhelming. In fact, I see hardly any objective evidence of anything at this point. QUote:"I think that from Todd's first thread that peoples spiritual discernment has come through rather than specific quotes"Isn't it kind of arrogant to call that spiritual discernment? What I have seen come through at this point, for the most part, appears to be more like people's opinions based on assumptions that haven't been backed up by any concrete evidence (at least that have been specifically cited). Getting specific and using real sources is how we can avoid this. Quote:"If specific quotes are wanted this then takes the thread on to another directionThis of course is fine but more involved."This is more of the kind of direction I am hoping we can go on.Quote:" Can i Suggest we review the articles and preaching sermons given in previous posts from clutch,sermonindex and philologos."Great suggestion. Hopefully we will find some time to do this. Let me know whatever you come up with that seems relevant and I will do the same.

Todd, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the following testimony of Ms. Tricia Tillin concerning the word-faith movement, it touches on prosperity teaching. It's a bit lengthy but an interesting read. Unlike myself, she seems to have considerable experience with this movement.Tricia Tillin's Word of Faith TestimonyIn Christ,Ron

Thanks Ron,This is highly recommended. Have written to her in the past to encourage her as she deals with many issues that can be repulsive to the spirit.Quote:More ConcernsJon and I pressed on with the Study Books, but increasingly we felt ill at ease with them. "Where does God come into all this?" we asked. It's all about OUR faith, and OUR use of the Word. Chapter headings such as "How to Write Your Own Ticket With God" and "You Can have What You Say" jarred my spirit - not because I was lacking in faith or bound by religious dogma, but because I knew and loved God through Jesus Christ - and this wasn't the way I saw God or Jesus, as beings to be manipulated into providing everything we wanted. I had more respect for the Almighty than that. And besides, my own experience in the Christian life had taught me that you DON'T get "all you say", even if you say it continually, with faith. There are some things that God loves you enough NOT to give!The emphasis on prosperity for all believers jarred also. Don't get me wrong. I had nothing against the principle that God blesses and provides for his people, and I did see prosperity as a blessing from God. However, this was again taken to extremes. Hagin wrote "God wants his children to eat the best, to wear the best clothing, to drive the best cars, and he wants them to have the best of everything." In an ideal world, maybe. But I also subscribed to a few missionary support groups and charities, and I knew from the literature that arrived that beloved, God-fearing believers in other parts of the country were not only impoverished, but sometimes starving, unclothed and dying. Others were in prison for their faith. Did this mean they were unable to exercise faith to receive "the best of everything" or was God being partisan in only blessing people in affluent Western countries?Edit:Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. Heb 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Heb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Let's restate the original question:Since the term "Prosperity Movement" gets thrown around a bit on this site, I would appreciate hearing peoples opinions of what that term means to them. What does it mean to you? This was what was asked and we replied.So to assert that we now have constructed a 'straw-man' is unfair. You asked for opinions.Went back through this entire thread and certainly it has evolved a bit, but there is some troubling aspects:Todd wrote:Who is to draw the line and say "You are too focused on prosperity"? According to who? As far as I can tell, God didn't draw any clear lines and say, "You can only preach about prosperity 3 times per year. If you preach 4 or more times, you are officially thrown into the category of 'Prosperity Movement' and you are teaching falsehood and it's an abomination to Me." This is a "straw-man" argument in itself.Like I mentioned before, I guess I don't know how to discern this apparently false teaching. I mean, does God have nothing to say about this subject? Would anyone here say that it is false to ever preach about prosperity? Or, as Greg seemed to indicate, is it more a matter of focus that makes it false? I would tend to agree that if the pastor talks exclusively about prosperity every Sunday for an entire year, something is probably wrong. But even then, how do I know? And as an outsider (in the sense that I don't know the pastor or the people that go to the church), do I have any right to criticize unless God specifically directs me? Yes you do have a 'right' to criticize any teaching that is unsound, harmful and destructive to believers, especially those that are new to the faith."It would also help to cite direct sources of the movement's proponents when you criticize or defend them. Otherwise, it is quite easy to build up what philosophers call the "straw man argument" (misrepresent one's arguments and then attack)."If you want to make a statement like that you have to consider your own position when you say: I think this "straw-man" gets at the idea I wrote earlier as a "ghost concept that has conveniently become a scapegoat and excuse for a weak Church." Could the scapegoat be a straw-man? I think it might be the case that most people are looking at a straw-man when they think about this prosperity thing. That has pretty much been my experience in the past and seems pretty accurate to this thread. Hopefully we can be more specific from here on out as to avoid criticizing something that doesn't even exist.This is an audacious statement. This has been your experience? Where is your defense?And you ask us to be more specific?If this has indeed evolved to where you want evidence over opinion then you need to bring forth that evidence. This is very confusing.How can you state "to avoid criticizing something that doesn't even exist"What doesn't exist? The whole "Prosperity Movement"?What are you saying here?My initial gut reaction was, "are you kidding me?"Something is askew here.What I have seen come through at this point, for the most part, appears to be more like people's opinions based on assumptions that haven't been backed up by any concrete evidence (at least that have been specifically cited). Getting specific and using real sources is how we can avoid this. Againhttp://www.jimbakkershow.com/word.htmlDid you read any of this? I am really curious.It might take some time to do so, but isn't that what you are asking for?"If specific quotes are wanted this then takes the thread on to another directionThis is more of the kind of direction I am hoping we can go on.Thats fine, but you can't make general statements on the one hand and then complain that we are not being specific enough. It works both ways.Forgive me if I have misunderstood you here.But it seems that you are defending that which you admittedly have little knowledge about.It is disheartening to those who have and to some extent are still being affected by the fallout of these doctrines. The problem is that I am still dealing with a lot of these issues with my own family. There is a jump to defend, not on a biblical basis but on a set of teachings that have been twisted and misapplied. Because like all deception there is truth mixed with error the impulse is to defend the teachers without carefully examining whether or not those teachings actually line up with scripture or not. And I was no different at the first. That is precisely why this is so dangerous. It is not a matter of just presenting well reasoned arguments to those who have been so entrenched in these teachings and by that I mean all the catch phrase's that have been used to describe these aberrations: "word of faith, name it and claim it, health and wealth, prosperity gospel". Those 'terms' seem to offend in and of themselves, but we have to call it something. It is not all cut and dry, it is convoluted and complex and becomes a mindset that is hard to disassemble, to 'unlearn'. It took me a long time to wrestle with and realize that I had fallen for so much error in the church I was attending, and the associated teachers, my experience being very similar to that of Tricia's and I do hope you read what she has written. She has put forth a lot of effort to explain and give evidence to the deception that is inherent in these teachings. Not only in the article cited by Ron but throughout her site.There are many that have been severely harmed financially, physically as well as spiritually by all this and this is a subject matter that can't be explained away as an over exaggeration or being non-existent. And it does in this case of 'prosperity' stem from the same source of teachings.That may not be specific enough for you, but if you want to take the time to look at Tricia's siteI believe you will find much of the evidence that you are looking for.This is not what our Lord shed His precious blood for, I don't care how you want to couch it.

here is a link to an interesting article about the "faith movement"http://www.newwineonline.com/html/an_examination_of_the_word-fai.html

Hey Todd,Mike's last post is straight to the point and captures all the opinions of replies to your origional postI to have seen close friends affected by this movemntdear brother we are not argueing for arguments sake against this vast subjectquote;Forgive me if I have misunderstood you here.But it seems that you are defending that which you admittedly have little knowledge about.It is disheartening to those who have and to some extent are still being affected by the fallout of these doctrines

Thanks ClintoAlso a warm welcome to you!Here is another from the same site, linking more articles:http://www.newwineonline.com/html/word-faith.html

Thanks Derek (Delboy),For adding this:dear brother we are not argueing for arguments sake against this vast subjectThis does tend to ruffle the feathers and I purposefully didn't respond last night with my original comments as they were a bit....let's just say, 'not edifying'.But I woke up this morning with this still a burden that I felt couldn't be set aside. It's too important to just leave alone.Can't just stand by and watch our comrades being taken down, those who have been caught in this tangled web.

Wow, so much to respond to. Sorry for all the confusion everyone. I think I am having some trouble expressing my thoughts through writing. But that is what we are limited to for now so please be patient with me. I am really working through this as we go. Let me address a few things that I think will help you understand my position as of now.The first thing I want to say is, thank you all for all of these resources to look at such as the Jim Bakker thing and other articles, teachings, etc. Here is where I would really appreciate your help, though. Let me use a little illustration. Let's say a young man, a brand new Christian, comes up to me in my office, sits down at the desk, and says "Could you please help me understand marriage?" "Oh, sure," I say, "I'll be right back." Soon I return with a stack of books and papers, stuggling to balance them all in my arms. I drop them down on the desk right in front of him. "SLAM". "There you go," I say. "There's a Bible and some good books and some other good stuff about marriage in there. Should answer all your questions. Let me know what you come up with." "Sure," I could tell myself. "I helped that guy out." And that would be true, to certain and significant degree. And the guy could spend months and years going through these resources and learning about marriage, and sure, they would help him in his quest to understand. But could there have been a more efficient and better way for me to help this man out? Or if that one's not so good. How about this? Someone comes to me and says, "I'm not sure if I'm saved. Can you help me?" Once again I say "Sure" and refer him to the Bible. "That should answer all your questions. Let me know what you think." But if I really understood the subject of salvation, I could be of much greater help to this person by pulling out specific references from the Bible that will help him, that we could discuss and go over together. I see both of those scenarios as exaggerated examples, but essentially what is going on in this thread. I do not doubt that the information you are providing could be helpful, just as a Bible could be to someone struggling with understanding their salvation. But could you please help me by pulling out specific references that you find most relevant so that we can discuss them and I can talk with you about it?I guess what I have failed to effectively communicate is that what I am really after is opinions with objective reasoning behind them.Quote:"This was what was asked and we replied.So to assert that we now have constructed a 'straw-man' is unfair. You asked for opinions."Good point. Where things changed was when Delboy asserted that the thread had moved beyond mere opinion into "overwhelming evidence" and "spiritual discernment." Quote:"Todd wrote:Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Who is to draw the line and say "You are too focused on prosperity"? According to who? As far as I can tell, God didn't draw any clear lines and say, "You can only preach about prosperity 3 times per year. If you preach 4 or more times, you are officially thrown into the category of 'Prosperity Movement' and you are teaching falsehood and it's an abomination to Me." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------This is a "straw-man" argument in itself."You could be right here. I guess I don't have a good enough grasp of logic right now to assert whether or not this is a straw-man argument. Agent001? A little help here :-?? But either way, the difference is that I am not taking a public stance against a set of ideas based on this illustration. It was just meant as a help explain what I was thinking. I think this straw-man thing is more relevant to those who feel they have a good grasp of the subject they are looking at. Quote:"Yes you do have a 'right' to criticize any teaching that is unsound, harmful and destructive to believers, especially those that are new to the faith."Ok, but if your claim is that you know the teaching is "unsound, harmful, and destructive to believers," I would hope you could bring forth evidence to show this. But we have to be careful here. I mean, you could make all of those claims about the Bible itself. But the problem is not the Bible but the way the person studying it sees it and understands it. For example, a new beliver might read about cutting off his arm and plucking out his eye if they cause him to sin. Could this be harmful? Isn't it clearly written in the Bible? Well, yes, but let's look at some other passages as well and see what we come up with. Perhaps there is more to this. Perhaps you could find one such teaching, specifically, and we could look at it. Perhaps one that you have access to that you think is most relevant now. Quote:"This is an audacious statement. This has been your experience? Where is your defense?And you ask us to be more specific?If this has indeed evolved to where you want evidence over opinion then you need to bring forth that evidence. This is very confusing.How can you state "to avoid criticizing something that doesn't even exist"What doesn't exist? The whole "Prosperity Movement"?What are you saying here?My initial gut reaction was, "are you kidding me?"Something is askew here."I think you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I am not saying that there isn't something out there that might be called a "prosperity movement." It seems clear to me, and I don't think that anyone would disagree, that in that last few generations there has been an increase in teaching and emphasis on the subject of prosperity. But I am thinking that what people think of when they hear the term "prosperity movement" might be a straw-man, that is, what they imagine to be this thing, is in reality something very different. What they are imagining it to be, how they are seeing it, is warped. And it has taken on aspects of it that aren't real or accurate. I hope that makes some more sense. I don't mean to downplay the relevance of your personal experience in this area. But like I said earlier, I think a lot of the time it is how people understand certain subjects, their misunderstanding of it, that is the real problem, not the subject itself. I am not saying this is always the case, it may not be for you, but already in my few years of looking, I have seen numerous examples of this taking place (it seems :-P). This continues to happen in myself and others I have known. I think I really understand a certain subject or situation, and everything seems to logically line up, and then something new is thrown into the mix and I realize I just wasn't seeing clearly before. Quote:"Againhttp://www.jimbakkershow.com/word.htmlDid you read any of this? I am really curious.It might take some time to do so, but isn't that what you are asking for?"I read a little. THanks. But as you probably could see from above, what I am really hoping for is your help by bringing forth what you feel is most relevant from the articel so that I can discuss it with you. Quote:"But it seems that you are defending that which you admittedly have little knowledge about."I guess that's true. I am looking at what has been produced so far in this thread and thinking, "Is this it?" I am only trying to get at the truth here, with your help and patience, with a hope that we can all come to a better understanding of these things.QUote:"It is disheartening to those who have and to some extent are still being affected by the fallout of these doctrines. The problem is that I am still dealing with a lot of these issues with my own family. There is a jump to defend, not on a biblical basis but on a set of teachings that have been twisted and misapplied. Because like all deception there is truth mixed with error the impulse is to defend the teachers without carefully examining whether or not those teachings actually line up with scripture or not. And I was no different at the first."Like I said, I am not trying to downplay the relevance of your experience. And clearly your desire to protect yourself and your family from deception is righteous. My "jump to defend" is not based on any teachings because I've barely heard any. I am just looking at what others have to say and probing. I will try to spend some time looking at some of the references that have been recommended. But in the mean time, if you feel there's something that is especially of relevance from any of these sources, please bring it forth.Quote:"I to have seen close friends affected by this movemntdear brother we are not argueing for arguments sake against this vast subject"Here's my concern. I know of people, myself included, who at different times have been negatively affected by different people and ideas. Not because the people and ideas in and of themselves were off, but because these people's understandings of them were. It seems that a lot of times with these things, it's not that all the pieces don't fit neatly together, it's that you don't have all the pieces. And one little tiny piece can change everything. I guess I am talking about paradigm shifts and the like. I want to see this prosperity stuff for what it really is, what truth is there, not what some have mistaken it to be. And I guess this is a process that takes time. Like you said, Mike, it's complex, right? So who knows how long we will discuss it for. But for whoever is willing to, I thank you.

A problem with this "prosperity gospel" is as follows: People who have not been well taught or are new to the faith join a church that is into this "prosperity gospel" teaching and are subjected to a premisis which is an underlying message in these church's, no its not necessarly spoken, but it goes something like this, You don't have the nice things you want and the money you want because you need more faith, you don't have enough faith that's your problem, thus these victims are taught that in order to be holy you should have lots of nice things and money. This becomes there goal: to obtain stuff so that others wills see that they are holy. It's a trap and it is so well accepted in churchs all over the US. But in India or Cuba you will not find much of this. Why do you think that is?

Hey Todd,Bless you Brother.Thanks for the clarifications.I think I am having some trouble expressing my thoughts through writing. But that is what we are limited to for now so please be patient with me. I am really working through this as we go. You are definitely not alone there, especially when it comes to writing and in a broader way we are all working through this Christian walk as we go.You made some good points with your illustrations. It is hard to have someone plop down "The History of the World" and then say "I'll be back next week, tell me what happened".So fair enough, you also mentioned that you would read some of the things we put up and that should give some kind of cursory overview.I think you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I am not saying that there isn't something out there that might be called a "prosperity movement." It seems clear to me, and I don't think that anyone would disagree, that in that last few generations there has been an increase in teaching and emphasis on the subject of prosperity. But I am thinking that what people think of when they hear the term "prosperity movement" might be a straw-man, that is, what they imagine to be this thing, is in reality something very different. What they are imagining it to be, how they are seeing it, is warped. And it has taken on aspects of it that aren't real or accurate. I hope that makes some more sense. Well, yes in that I have this kind of vague familiarity with you :-D and that you tend to be very fair minded almost to the point where you drive some of us to cry for mercy!!!Let me extract this bit out:"What they are imagining it to be, how they are seeing it, is warped. And it has taken on aspects of it that aren't real or accurate."Certainly that may be true and surely when you are opposed to something strongly the tendency is to overstate or exaggerate. But we will try and steer clear of that. Now a lot of the things that have been taught that have quotes attached could be from a number of years ago (For instance the ones listed on the 'New Wine' site) does that make them irrelevant now?I would only say 'if' they have been denounced ("we were wrong, we no longer teach that") otherwise we would have to assume that this is an ongoing teaching? Fair?To take it one step further, what if we go to some of these teachers websites and do a search just on the word "prosperity" and see what we come up with, at least we would be current. So I propose some of the names already attached to these types of things:Kenneth and Gloria CopelandBenny HinnCreflo and Taffy DollarMarylin HickeyPaul and Jan CrouchJessie DuplantisAnd others that may come to mind later.Promise not to go 'hunting' will just let them speak for themselves and see what we come up with.

Hey Todd,SighI agree with what Greg has said and even more so after attempting what I had proposed earlier.Went to the Copelands site and tried really hard to read through his online book on prosperity:http://www.kcm.org/studycenter/finances/pdf/lawsofprosperity.pdfI don't even know if it is worth the attempt to try and dismantle all that is in there without it dragging on into eternity.I can only describe it as "muddy".There's truth there and some of it even 'sounds' good, they say the right things at times, but the premise is off base. It starts with anidea; "Prosperity" and then it appears that you go and find everything you can to buttress your argument. Eisegesis. It's a reading into the scriptures. And you can't really just take a 'part' and work on that because it is all woven together in this diabolical misreading of scriptures.For what it's worth here is an example:(pg 51)One time I was meditating about Peter catching the fish with the money in its mouth. I realized this was a financial operation, so I decided to find out what God had to say. I must have read that story 50 times and ran into a blank wall each time! I could see that Peter needed tax money and Jesus told (pg 52)him to go fishing. He caught the fish and got the money out of its mouth. I would run that through my thinking, sometimes for hours, then get up and say, “Well, Lord, I know it’s here somewhere, and by faith, I claim the revelation on it!” Finally, in prayer one day I picked up my Bible, flipped it open to that passage, and read it once more. Then I saw something I had read over and over again. Jesus said, “Get the money out of the mouth of the first fish.” Peter was going to catch a mess of fish!Then the Lord spoke to my heart and said, “Son, don’t bind Me to finances. I can handle the fish just as I can the money.” I saw what I had been missing! I had been centering on the one fish.Now if I had been in Peter’s place, I would have jerked the money out of the fish’s mouth, run down to pay the taxes, and then realized that I didn’t have anything to eat. I would have been so shortsighted that I would have thrown the fish back and missed out on the rest of the catch. If there was a first fish, there had to be a second and so on. Peter was a commercial fisherman and knew how to market those fish. Jesus obviously loaded his boat again. I would have spent part of the money on something to eat and still couldn’t have paid my taxes. I thought, “I have been believing for the money to buy an automobile when I should have believing God for the automobile itself!” The Lord said, “That’s right. You have had Me bound to that little channel of money.” Then He said something I’ll never forget, “Son, if I send you a cow with a bag of money around her neck, for goodness’ sake, milk her before you send her home!” The Lord has a tremendous sense of humor, but I didn’t know it until I began to fellowship with Him and meditate in His Word."(pg53)Going back to your point about it being a misunderstanding (a 'straw-man' possibly and so forth). It is a huge misunderstanding, on their part.I am by no means a scholar when it comes to all of this, but with just a little bit of knowledge it is apparent this is just bad hermeneutics for one.There is really a whole philosophy going on in these teachers which makes it difficult to extract certain things from. It's like you can't talk about one without the other, health, wealth...it's all a part of a 'system' or 'formula'.Another big problem is this whole idea of "Faith is a force" :"We need to realize that the spiritual world and its laws are (pg13)more powerful than the physical world and its laws. Spiritual law gave birth to physical law. The world and the physicalforces governing it were created by the power of faith—a spiritual force. God, a Spirit, created all matter, and He created it with the force of faith. Hebrews 11:3 says, “…the worlds wereframed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” The law of gravity would be meaningless if gravity were not a real force. Faith is a spiritual force, a spiritual energy, a spiritual power. It is this force of faith which makes the laws of the spirit world function. When the force of faith is put to work, these laws of the spirit function according to the way God says they will."I don't know if I am going to be of much help here, though I would like to be. Maybe if you check out these first hand you can get a grasp of whether or not you think they square to the scriptures as opposed to what we already think and as Greg mentioned in his reply.

This is something I had forgotten all about and since it is related, thought I would share it.I have a dear elderly friend that sends me things every once in a while via email. To clarify, the following was forwarded to me by her and is from CFAITH:"CFAITH is an alliance of media ministries, including Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Jerry Savelle, Creflo Dollar, Jesse Duplantis, Keith Butler and Mac Hammond and others whose goal is to build the most extensive source of faith-related content on the Web to nurture believers and minister to unbelievers around the globe._________________________________________________Prayer Summary For December 9, 2003 Notice: The following information was taught and prayed about during Lynne Hammond's and Ray Kelly's early morning prayer session this morning.Today's Reading: 1 Corinthians 11.Scripture Focus...BLESSED (HAPPY, fortunate, prosperous, and enviable) is the man who walks and lives not in the counsel of the ungodly [following their advice, their plans and purposes], nor stands [submissive and inactive] in the path where sinners walk, nor sits down [to relax and rest] where the scornful [and the mockers] gather. But his delight and desire are in the law of the Lord, and on His law (the precepts, the instructions, the teachings of God) he habitually meditates (ponders and studies) by day and by night. And he shall be like a tree firmly planted [and tended] by the streams of water, ready to bring forth its fruit in its season; its leaf also shall not fade or wither; and everything he does shall prosper [and come to maturity].(Ps. 1:1-3 AMP)Shared...By faith we believe what Jesus did on the cross and through His redemptive work, we are born again. Included in the gift of salvation are two areas that also belong to us, the "twins" of health and wealth. For many, it has been looked upon as "unspiritual" to have wealth and even the gift of health from God is generally pictured as something not likely to be obtained.The word "wealth" means resources, competence to meet our obligations, whatever those might be. God doesn't promise to make us millionaires but He does provide for our every need. "My God will liberally supply," and the Amplified translation says, fill to the full your every need according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 4:19).Prosperity and good success are promised in the Word of God and when we live by His Word (Josh. 1:8), delight ourselves in His Word and meditate in it, God says that whatsoever we do will prosper!Jesus said, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you" (Matt. 6:33). Jesus was speaking about our material provisions. Jesus did not say that if we seek first the kingdom of God, all these things will be taken away from us. No, He said all these things-our material provisions-shall be added unto us!Deuteronomy 8:18 says, "It is God who giveth thee the power to get wealth." Satan is the one who wants to stop our Christian effectiveness in paying our obligations. Prosperity is part of salvation and Satan seeks to embarrass us in financial matters. But we choose to agree with God and His Word and to disagree with the devil!God says, "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prosperth" (3 John 2). This is God's desire for us, His children, to prosper and be in health, even as our souls prosper! So how do we prosper our souls? One way is through spirit-led prayer and a positive praise life. A second way is by studying God's Word and confessing the Scriptures boldly so that our own bodies hear it. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Thirdly, by witnessing with our lives and our lips of Jesus to others. So many of God's people are afflicted and poverty-stricken and the work of God is reduced to a standstill in some quarters because of a lack of finances or health. It's time we affirmed the scriptures and receive the benefit of God's gifts of wealth and health. Daily declare that God gives you the "twins" of health and wealth for they are part of your salvation!Confession...I declare that my life is changing! I declare that no weapon formed or fashioned against me shall prosper. My finances are getting stronger. I declare that I am out of debt forever. I'm getting stronger. Money flows to me in great abundance. All my needs are met now! I have plenty more to put in store. I have preferential treatment and I walk in the favor of God and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost. I expect unexpected income-money is drawn to me. I am blessed to be a blessing. In Jesus' name, I am no longer the tail. I'm no longer beneath. I declare that I am above only! I declare victory in every area.I declare promotion in my life. Promotion on my job. Promotion in my spirit. Promotion in my soul. Promotion in my finances and divine health in my body. My ministry will not be held down. My ministry will not be suppressed. It will not be restricted and it will not be stopped. All that God has called me to do shall come up, shall come out, and shall come forth. Every word of God He's spoken concerning me shall come to pass. No devil, no world problem, no country problem can narrow it down. It will break forth. It will break out. The will of God will be fully done in my life. I decree it! I say it! I decree it! I say it in Jesus' name! Amen.Prayed... Thank you the way is being prepared today!We are breaking through into abundance.A transferring of property into our hands. Actual land being transferred. It's part of the unexpected prosperity.Property! Buildings!Projects in our life, in our church will call finished! Resources come to finish these projects and complete them.Books, be closed and finished. No longer to be detoured, detained.Settle into your place. Puzzle pieces, we call you to be placed.That's the place you'll begin to prosper and multiply.Fuller revelation because of the joinings.Plead the Blood over every connection. Connected by and in the Blood.Angels, go and bring in the monies now for the Gospel.Supernatural flow of finances.Transfer from that account to another.Lift up all the ledgers, numbers line up!Moving on the hearts of men like the watercourses.In their decision making process. Turning from one decision to another.A great shakeup.Lift up all of the markets.What about those who have hid, who have extorted? We command those extortionists to let go! Reveal it!Transferred into the hands of righteous men and women!Let go of those airplanes! Let go of those monies!We call you in one right after another.A change has taken place! (We corporately prayed for those who are believing for new homes.)Increase takes place in every area.We agree that church buildings all over the earth will be finished and if they've not started, they will!Pop up! Spring up!Even before the end of this year, some buildings will be paid in full!You will drive by an area, there's nothing there, and the next time, there's a church!Materialize! Walls come up! Foundations and windows.Sanctuaries, holy habitations all over the cities of the earth.Buildings in Africa! Turning in Africa!Monies get into the right channels!Expedite!Mountainous regions. Habitations in the villages.Those that have been overtaken by demonic influences will be dusted off in the spirit and be translated into the light.Buildings that were built by the devil, signs will be taken down and crosses will go up.Transferred into the hands of the church!Purchased by God!So the ways are being prepared today! Transfers are taking place!Car dealerships transferred to the church.Theatres will go downhill.Signs and wonders. Demonstrations of miraculous power.Lift the men waiting to make the deals. Seizing the moment and seizing the property!A great shopping trip in the spirit!Tools in the hands of God's people.Lift up all the skilled craftsmen.Knowing what to do, what to say, how to pray.Undeniable evidence.Pathway is smooth and illuminated by the Spirit of God!Platforms shall be on firm foundations and hold the habitations of God.Increase in healings and parts will function as created to when you lay hands on them and God will get the glory!New signs, new wonders. A new standard to hold onto.It'll begin to turn around. Move over into glorious worship!People of God walking out of their wheelchairs, walking on their limbs.Call in the spirit for signs and wonders!possibilities. Crossing over!We see a new territory. It clears out every disability and turns them into possibility!This is the time! This is the hour!Doors! Doorways!Turning from improbability to probability!Abundance!There were some things that were covered up but that's where breakthrough takes us over into the new!We're standing tall and walking in all of the purpose of the new!May peace and joy be a reality - especially to those called to minister health.Filled and lifted up. Their expectancy rises up day after day into the supernatural realm of the Holy Ghost where all the needs are met. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------This was my response:Oh Boy, here we go again.....This is very typical of this type of 'teaching'I am no expert, but let's see if these things are really true according to the scriptures.Will try and break down each paragraph."Included in the gift of salvation are the "twins" of health and wealth." There is no scriptual warrant for this, nor does this play anywhere else in the world than in the West. I would love to see these 'teachers' preach this to the underground church in China, in India, in HIV ravished Africa where there is suffering, poverty, persecution.Try telling this to a congregation in a third world country where thousands of believers are sharing one bible, living under the threat of death for their faith. "For many, it has been looked upon as "unspiritual" to have wealth and even the gift of health from God is generally pictured as something not likely to be obtained."It is not "unspirtual" to have wealth, but it is to have greed in your heart, to serve money as your god. What was the problem with the rich young ruler? That he was wealthy? No, that he didn't know what true riches were, that his wealth had more importance than his soul. Like him, we are to believe that we can have our cake and eat it to if we follow along this line of thinking. The absurdity of this is that if we are to believe that it is an 'either/or' proposition, it opens up all kinds of problems. If you don't by into their interpetation, then the tables get turned on you. Same with the "gift of health" try telling that to Joni Erickson Tada or Richard Wurmbrand who suffered the horricfic beatings and brainwashings while in prison for his faith "to the point that death would have been preferred to life itself."The word "wealth" means resources, competence to meet our obligations, whatever those might be. God doesn't promise to make us millionaires but He does provide for our every need. "My God will liberally supply," and the Amplified translation says, fill to the full your every need according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 4:19).What does this verse pertain to? Paul was commendeing the Philippians for sending him provisions to meet his 'needs', notice that he also states "Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am am, to be content: I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned to both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Nevertheless you have done well that you shared in my distress" vs 11-14.The statement is true in so far as the emphesis is in the understanding of what constitutes "need".Unfortunately, I think we have a poor revelation as to what a "need" really is. The line between "needs' and "wants" has been blurred. God knows are needs and surely will supply them as He deems neccessary. We need to line up under and according to His will, not ours. Prosperity and good success are promised in the Word of God and when we live by His Word (Josh. 1:8), delight ourselves in His Word and meditate in it, God says that whatsoever we do will prosper! Josh 1:8. Absolutely true. But what do we have in mind by 'prosper'? and how do we balance this out with the rest of scripture? If we back up in Philippians a chapter to Philip 3:7 we read "But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet I count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead." vs. 7-11. Is this what the scriptures really teach us "prosperity and good success"? Is that what the early church had?Has anybody noticed that this is a realtively new idea that has been wrenched out of the scriptures?Do we not interpt scripture with scripture? Is this what the "Hall of Faith" members of Hebrews 11 recieved?How do we reconcile this statement in Heb 11: 13, "These all died in faith, not having recieved the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." In verse 30 we have the "overcomers", Rahab the harlot, Gideon, Samson, David (33) "who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouth of lions, quencehed the violonce of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong..." and then onto "Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trail of mockings and scouragings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented--of who the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth." vs 35-38.So some obtained promises and others did not, the ones who did for what purpose? Tobe "prospereous"? and the ones who didn't, did they get "health and wealth"? These "who the world was not worthy of".Jesus said, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you" (Matt. 6:33). Jesus was speaking about our material provisions. Jesus did not say that if we seek first the kingdom of God, all these things will be taken away from us. No, He said all these things-our material provisions-shall be added unto us!What "things" ? "Our material provisions" well that is kind of a broad statement isn't it? In context Jesus said at the begining of this (Matt 6:19-21) "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where theives break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven........For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." This is where the rubber meet's the road. Let's look at the rest , what is the meaning behind "The lamp of the body is the eye."? and the contrast of light and darkness? My notation states it this way: "He was indicting them for their superficial earthly religion that left their hearts dark." Jesus goes on next to warn that you cannot serve two masters. "You cannot serve God and mammon."He tells us not to worry and then "Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?" What is He saying here? I believe this is a key verse and where this whole "prosperity teaching" gets off track. Will come back to that in a moment. The provisions Jesus mentioned were the following. Food, drink and clothing. "For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things" (32) "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." So to take the words of this author "Jesus was speaking of our material provisions" was He? In all of this Jesus was speaking of what was of the greater importance, namely God's kingdom and His righteousness, where are real treasures lie (in heaven) and what is really in our hearts (light and darkness).Are we not seeking our own righteousness by wrentching this out of context, trying to make it say something other than what was intended? This is putting the cart before the horse. Of course God will meet all our needs, but He being all wise knows just what those needs are to each of us individually and in this instance there are three that Jesus mentioned. Basic necessities.Deuteronomy 8:18 says, "It is God who giveth thee the power to get wealth." Satan is the one who wants to stop our Christian effectiveness in paying our obligations. Prosperity is part of salvation and Satan seeks to embarrass us in financial matters. But we choose to agree with God and His Word and to disagree with the devil!Nonsense. Prosperity is not "a part of salvation". No where does it say that in scripture and taking this verse from Deuteronomy and trying to apply it here is ludicrous. Again we must read it in it's context. I too agree with God and it is very dangerous to pour our own meaning into scripture, isolate it from the rest of the surrounding context and stick them together like puzzle pieces to make it say what we want it to say without taking into account the whole of revealed truth in Gods word. I will stop here and continue on later. This is too important not to get some clarity on and I am sick and tired of people being mislead by this abuse of Gods word. Mike_________________________________________________ Part 2 God says, "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prosperth" (3 John 2). This is God's desire for us, His children, to prosper and be in health, even as our souls prosper! So how do we prosper our souls? One way is through spirit-led prayer and a positive praise life. A second way is by studying God's Word and confessing the Scriptures boldly so that our own bodies hear it. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Thirdly, by witnessing with our lives and our lips of Jesus to others. Wait a minute, "God says,?" May be a small point, but it is John who is saying these words. "This is God's desire for us". I thought it was to be made holy, to be like His Son. The emphesis is again misplaced, surely there is nothing wrong in asking or praying for such things as John did to Gaius, but I think the idea of what constitutes "prosper" nowadays is a far cry from what it was then. "For I rejoiced greatly when brethren came and testified of the truth that is in you, just as you walk in the truth. I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth" it goes on to say. "...and confessing the scriptures boldly so that our own bodies hear it." In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with this, but I know where it is leading to.... So many of God's people are afflicted and poverty-stricken and the work of God is reduced to a standstill in some quarters because of a lack of finances or health. It's time we affirmed the scriptures and receive the benefit of God's gifts of wealth and health. Daily declare that God gives you the "twins" of health and wealth for they are part of your salvation!The way this is worded gives itself away to the "name it and claim it" idea which is false and unbiblical. The blame being fixed on the fact that we are not "affirming" or "declaring" instead of where it needs to be fixed, on good stewardship and sacrificial giving. The reason God's people are afflicted and poverty-stricken is spiritual, because they have become biblicaly illiterate and because they by into this easy-believe-ism that all you have to do is "speak" these things into exsistence. There is no precedence set forth in scripture that warrants this in anyway. How did the early church survive? Through this speaking forth, declaring that God give them health and wealth because it was "part of their salvation"? Nowhere does it show that, Paul was a tent maker besides being an evangelist. The early church members pooled all their resources together so that none had lack. This is a dangerous presumption, "Daily declare that God gives you". Oh how we have lost the Holiness of God! Confession...I declare that my life is changing! I declare that no weapon formed or fashioned against me shall prosper. My finances are getting stronger. I declare that I am out of debt forever. I'm getting stronger. Money flows to me in great abundance. All my needs are met now! I have plenty more to put in store. I have preferential treatment and I walk in the favor of God and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost. I expect unexpected income-money is drawn to me. I am blessed to be a blessing. In Jesus' name, I am no longer the tail. I'm no longer beneath. I declare that I am above only! I declare victory in every area.I declare promotion in my life. Promotion on my job. Promotion in my spirit. Promotion in my soul. Promotion in my finances and divine health in my body. My ministry will not be held down. My ministry will not be suppressed. It will not be restricted and it will not be stopped. All that God has called me to do shall come up, shall come out, and shall come forth. Every word of God He's spoken concerning me shall come to pass. No devil, no world problem, no country problem can narrow it down. It will break forth. It will break out. The will of God will be fully done in my life. I decree it! I say it! I decree it! I say it in Jesus' name! Amen.This is appaling, "declaring" all this is just plain nonsense. A severe twisting of God's word. "Speak forth your blessing", "Claim your healing", "Word of faith", "Positive confession". It is a lie from the pit of hell. It has caused more financial problems than we may ever know, and I know from experience and still suffer the effects from being caught up in it and the subconcious physcological leftovers in those that I love. Is this the example Jesus left us? He who had no place to lay His head, the Lamb of God, crucified, dying for us lost sinners so that we could have "health and wealth"? Is that the gospel? This 'other gospel' that they are preaching put's man on the throne and God at his disposal. You would think it was comical if it wasn't so sickening. It makes me cringe whenever I hear it. I fear for new believers who get caught up in this, how many have had there faith shipped wrecked because of these false teachings?"I declare..My ..I..My...I,I,I" Flippant, arrogant, prideful, full of boasting and then to attach Jesus name on the end of it...... Prayed... Thank you the way is being prepared today!We are breaking through into abundance.A transferring of property into our hands. Actual land being transferred. It's part of the unexpected prosperity.Property! Buildings!Projects in our life, in our church will call finished! Resources come to finish these projects and complete them.Books, be closed and finished. No longer to be detoured, detained.Settle into your place. Puzzle pieces, we call you to be placed.That's the place you'll begin to prosper and multiply.Fuller revelation because of the joinings.Plead the Blood over every connection. Connected by and in the Blood.Angels, go and bring in the monies now for the Gospel.Supernatural flow of finances.Transfer from that account to another.Lift up all the ledgers, numbers line up!Moving on the hearts of men like the watercourses.In their decision making process. Turning from one decision to another.A great shakeup.Lift up all of the markets.What about those who have hid, who have extorted? We command those extortionists to let go! Reveal it!Transferred into the hands of righteous men and women!Let go of those airplanes! Let go of those monies!We call you in one right after another.A change has taken place! (We corporately prayed for those who are believing for new homes.)Increase takes place in every area.We agree that church buildings all over the earth will be finished and if they've not started, they will!Pop up! Spring up!Even before the end of this year, some buildings will be paid in full!You will drive by an area, there's nothing there, and the next time, there's a church!Materialize! Walls come up! Foundations and windows.Sanctuaries, holy habitations all over the cities of the earth.Buildings in Africa! Turning in Africa!Monies get into the right channels!Expedite!Mountainous regions. Habitations in the villages.Those that have been overtaken by demonic influences will be dusted off in the spirit and be translated into the light.Buildings that were built by the devil, signs will be taken down and crosses will go up.Transferred into the hands of the church!Purchased by God!So the ways are being prepared today! Transfers are taking place!Car dealerships transferred to the church.Theatres will go downhill.Signs and wonders. Demonstrations of miraculous power.Lift the men waiting to make the deals. Seizing the moment and seizing the property!A great shopping trip in the spirit!Tools in the hands of God's people.Lift up all the skilled craftsmen.Knowing what to do, what to say, how to pray.Undeniable evidence.Pathway is smooth and illuminated by the Spirit of God!Platforms shall be on firm foundations and hold the habitations of God.Increase in healings and parts will function as created to when you lay hands on them and God will get the glory!New signs, new wonders. A new standard to hold onto.It'll begin to turn around. Move over into glorious worship!People of God walking out of their wheelchairs, walking on their limbs.Call in the spirit for signs and wonders!possibilities. Crossing over!We see a new territory. It clears out every disability and turns them into possibility!This is the time! This is the hour!Doors! Doorways!Turning from improbability to probability!Abundance!There were some things that were covered up but that's where breakthrough takes us over into the new!We're standing tall and walking in all of the purpose of the new!May peace and joy be a reality - especially to those called to minister health.Filled and lifted up. Their expectancy rises up day after day into the supernatural realm of the Holy Ghost where all the needs are met. This is truly saddening, what is going on these days in the name of Christianity. We have lost our biblical moorings, that which was purchased by the blood of the martyr's and passed down to us has been turned to lasciviousness. Sin, repentence, servanthood, service, sacrafice, obedience, taking up the cross, fellowship in the sufferings of our Savior, laying down your life, surrender. Not a hint or mention of any of these things. " But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, tratiors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resit the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was. But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, persevereance, persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra --what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and imposters will grow worse and worse, deciving and being decieved." 2 Tim 3-13Dear ____, I wrote this in a general sense as I may post it at some later date. It is from my heart and I despair at the outcome of this type of teaching on the unsuspecting. As I had stated, it has caused me no small problems personally as I had been formerly caught up in it and had to unlearn quite a bit. Sometimes exposing a false doctrine causes a misunderstanding of motive and intention. Mine is only for the truth and that I have much still to learn. I pray that these men would turn their hearts and their heads to God's word and to study what it says to us, as opposed to what we would like it to say. But for all that these things must be brought out into the light and exposed for what they are. False. I know I have many shortcomings and may the Lord forgive me if I have gotten this wrong, it is to the best of my understanding. A counterfit always has the true aspects in it and to borrow from Mr. Haannagraff, you have to know the truth so well that when a counterfit lurks on the horizon, you can spot it instantaniously, and that is why I will continue to diligently study to show myself approved..got a long way to go. Much Love Mike 12/12/03__________________________________________________Sorry for the length of this, but I just wanted to add that after re-reading this now, the author is practically quoting directly from the "Proseperity" book mentioned in my other earlier reply.

Wow, thanks Mike. I think the comments on that prayer says it all, no mention of the things of repentance and surrender.There is much truth in what they teach and that is what makes the deception so subtle. Satan is no fool, if he cannot sow unbelief in mens hearts concerning the truth then he will go the other way and push men to take the truth to extremes, just add a little extra to the truth and it becomes a lie. This is why I pray for discerment daily.I learned a humiliating yet valuable lesson in discernment, or my lack thereof, when I was a new believer. I read the book "The God Chasers" by Tommy Tenney. I was excited about it, it sounded like good truth and had me stirred up. But thank God someone at my church had the discernment to point out to me that much of it was truth taken to extremes, particularly the gifts of the Spirit were being exalted over the Giver of the gifts. When I went back over the book and read where Tenney called the Bible "dusty old love letters" I was shocked at how little discerment I really had.Now I know why guys like Tozer and Sparks felt the greatest need in the Church is spiritual discernment. God help us!In Christ,Ron

Wow, thanks Mike.I echo ron's intro,Mike you have REALLY put meat on the bones! Bless you.I to went to some of the sites as you suggested but soon became so annoyedmike you have done the community here a serviceHey Todd,now see the evidence bro? :-D

There truly is something sinister about it all.It was with reluctance to go through all this again, there is something that just wells up inside,....aarrrggghhh! Like Derek said, it is an annoyance reading back over those 'old teachings' that I once fully embraced. If it was all blatantly false it would be easy to just dismiss it out of hand.Ron saidSatan is no fool, if he cannot sow unbelief in mens hearts concerning the truth then he will go the other way and push men to take the truth to extremes, just add a little extra to the truth and it becomes a lie. This is why I pray for discernment daily.Sinister, no doubt.I learned a humiliating yet valuable lesson in discernment, or my lack thereof, when I was a new believer. I read the book "The God Chasers" by Tommy Tenney. I was excited about it, it sounded like good truth and had me stirred up. But thank God someone at my church had the discernment to point out to me that much of it was truth taken to extremes, particularly the gifts of the Spirit were being exalted over the Giver of the gifts. When I went back over the book and read where Tenney called the Bible "dusty old love letters" I was shocked at how little discernment I really had.And Praise God that you were able to take that advice and then re-consider it. It's one of the difficulties, that it's usually pretty natural to react and defend when somebody challenges you. I know I did when I first started hearing opposing voices "How dare they!"....and then to realize that I had zero discernment, it was humbling. But even now I still hesitate to bring this forth a bit, still have a lot to learn. You see it's wrong, you know it's wrong and then...Rat's! Now I have to try and explain it ... You don't derive any pleasure out of it, that's for sure, it's just griveous....

Todd,I think crsschk has got what you were looking for: a suggested list of proponents of "prosperity teaching", and the book by Kenneth Copeland himself, "The Laws of Prosperity," which I believe will be especially helpful in making up your mind. You are probably more interested in reading the proponent's own works to make up your mind than to listen to their opponents' representations of their position.The Laws of Propsperity by Kenneth CopelandI did not read through the whole book, but I did briefly skim through it. Invariably, it seems Copeland began with some biblical truth and then pushed it too far. I think he had some genuine experience before God, but I do think his understanding of his own experience and his interpretation of the Word are problematic. If you like, we can discuss about that.Honestly, I suggest that it's more spiritually helpful to read Hudson Taylor and George Mueller. They also learned to pray by faith for God's provision of their daily needs. Did they prosper? No, not in the financial sense. But God supplied just enough for their "daily bread".

dear Agent001,hey thanks for your contributions during this thread ;-)

Wow, another stack of materials! Seriously, if you want a good laugh, look at all that's been written since my last post and then read my illustrations from my last post. First off, again, let me thank you for your efforts. However, let me emphasize the word most when I say "most relevant." I know this might seem like I am trying to have my cake and eat it too, but I really don't see any other way of dealing with a topic of this magnitude and complexity fairly. Perhaps it is time to start separate threads in specific areas. For example, we could start one for Copeland's book. I think that could be very helpful and efficient, especially since it's an online book. Then maybe another thread for philologos' message, other separate ones for each of Wilkersons' messages, the Jim Bakker article, that woman's testimony, etc., etc, etc. I think that might be reasonable, but not all at once. Maybe have 1 or possibly 2 going at the same time. Crsschk, I read much of your commentary on Copelands book and would be interested in discussing each area separately. So, maybe pick out what seems most relevant to you (like maybe 1-3 points) and make that the start of the new thread. That would be ideal for me. Quote:"You see it's wrong, you know it's wrong and then...Rat's! Now I have to try and explain it ... You don't derive any pleasure out of it, that's for sure, it's just griveous...."Thanks again for your time and making this effort for me. Let me leave this thread with a few reflections after skimming "through the stack." As far as Muller goes, I understand that he did experience great prosperity, but he voluntarily chose to give most of it away. But this was a choice, he chose to give what he received as a blessing. There are those who are in poverty, not by choice, but because of other reasons. I think that God wants us in the place where we can make choices concerning what to do with the abundance He blesses us with. This is a great difference, to be in humble circumstances voluntarily verses being stuck in poverty despite your longing to get out. Also, have you ever seen the places where Spurgeon lived, such as Westwood (check out pp. 49-62, Vol. 4 of his unedited autobiography published by Pilgrim)? Or the kind of establishments he set up? And wasn't Spurgeon the same man who said that Muller was the one man he held in such high regard that he would trade lives with? I am willing to bet that Spurgeon had at least as good, if not a far better, understanding and respect for Muller's convictions and beleifs than most of us, and yet this extravagence... you think there might be more to all of this? One hugley important factor that I think makes things much clearer is the "blessings and curses" factor. In fact, I think I am going to start a new thread on that topic tonight.

Hey Todd,These weren't all for you :-) The one from the email was just something I had on file that was relevant, long as it was.This is a topic that obviously has had an effect on me personally. So you may have gotten more than you bargained for by bringing this up.I have barely even gotten started, so take what you will from it, but remember there are others dropping in on all this.Re: The Copeland Book:So, maybe pick out what seems most relevant to you (like maybe 1-3 points) and make that the start of the new thread. That would be ideal for me. What's relevant to me is that it's irrevervent, the whole philosophy. As I alluded to before, it's difficult to break it out of it's construct. The whole premise of this 'theology' is a misconstruction of what scriptures really teach.It seems that the idea is that by their way of reasoning you become gods. This 'God' has 'formulas' and 'laws' that if you just know how to follow along you will become rich, prosperous, healthy, no problem. Your a mighty Christian, the devil can't touch you, and because you now have these supernatural powers, you can speak things into existence by the 'force of faith', just like God did. Still don't grasp what God needs faith for or in.I don't see the benefit of dissecting this point by point. It is glaringly apparent to me. How would you go about it?'This point isn't too bad, this is way off, this is nonsense, this is actually true but it's twisted.' How much arsenic do you need to kill someone?I believe at one point in the book he said that the biggest problem in the world is financial poverty. I thought it was sin.As far as I am concerned if there was ever a case of 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' this would be it.Maybe the question needs to be turned around, what benefit do you see in this kind of teaching?Is it really true and we have just misunderstood?Is it scriptural?Is this what the apostles would have us to understand?Jesus? Is this what the Lord was teaching?Why is it that all of a sudden these guy's have this new revelation of interpretation that has been lost to Orthodox Christianity all these years?There is still the same unanswered questions, does this play in third world countries?What about the not so obvious insinuation that if you are not receiving all these things they promise it's because of your lack of faith?What about the little old Lady's being bilked out of there money? The new naive believers?I may be the wrong guy for this...maybe somebody can come along and be more objective. But for myself the ramifications still reverberate to this day. This type of teaching just lends itself to the already materialistic mindset that is prevalent in our society, it just has Christian lingo attached to it.If you want some more stark honesty I will show you were all this teaching has gotten me.To the best of my ability I have ran my business on principles that are consistent with my understanding of scripture. Being fair, honest, paying my taxes* (you wouldn't believe the 'Christians' that have told me to just "take this 'under the table'") (*well, not quite. I actually owe the IRS big time and have had to resort to a payment plan. But that is my fault, I am a lousy business man. Still, Cesar will get paid, with interest)Being that I was all caught up in this nonsense as I started my business, it did have an effect on how I went about things. I over extended my giving because of these concepts. Did I have faith? You bet! I have planted so many 'seeds' you would think I would have my own housing track by now, but all I wanted was just one house, Oh maybe I just gave up to soon? Isn't that convenient? You can dangle these things out in front of people and if they don't come to pass it's either your lack of faith or lack of patience.....built in escape clause's.Has the Lord sustained me through all this folly?Yes, despite myself, how merciful He is to His ignorant children. But it is a day to day dependence on His provisions and most of the time it just trickles in. I can barely keep my head above water. Yet if anything it has caused me to cling even tighter to Him. To trust Him.This has been nowhere near 'blessings and abundance', but hard work, suffering and toil.Because of these teachings and this whole philosophy, (and yes I believe it is a large part of the problem because it is so ingrained into their thinking), I still have loved ones that are on a conscious and subconscious level material minded, have no concept of 'delayed gratification', what good stewardship is, this whole idea that some 'miracle' is just going to plop out of the sky or Ed McMahon is going to come knocking on the door.Am I going to cast all the blame at their feet for all this financial trouble that I have found myself in? No. It's still my own doing. I'll take the blame for being a fool who's money has departed from him. I have made some stupid mistakes all by myself unrelated to all this.But the point I want to drive home is where all this leads to. Fortunately I began to listen to dissenting voices before to long, but it has been a long 3 to 4 years now of trying to extract this mindset from my loved ones, it is full of pain, anguish, tears, pleading, praying...Only God can open the eye's, I have given up trying to persuade, to be rational, to explain. Tried to be temperate, tolerant, understanding...learning what it means to be long suffering and I am not looking for sympathy here, this is far short of persecution, of shedding blood or being tortured for your faith. But the consequences are there.Again, all this teaching isn't blatant, it's subtle, that's the 'beauty' of it.It actually encourages bad stewardship and wishful thinking, all the while making it look like just the opposite.Oh, I could go on and on and I have, but I will make no apologies other than for overcrowding this space, forgive me, but this will be the last of it.There is nothing of any worth in this whole philosophy. Like so many other words they have destroyed, this one now has a permanent stain on it. Prosperity. How sad.The world is steeped in sin, multitudes are going to hell, atrocities abound all over the world, persecution, suffering, a backslidden church, morals in the toilet...Then to add injury to insult we have this heretical doctrine misleading the multitudes.Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repentBehold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev 3:17-22 (Muller/Spurgeon and this topic? That's a lousy comparison, maybe someone will take you up on that one)If you want to defend, dissect and discuss it it's really none of my business and maybe I should have never jumped in here in the first place. I can only give my testimony to the destruction that this false gospel is and I will bow out from here and leave with this warning from Carter Conlon:Run for your life! 1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

All of these ministers are wolves in sheeps clothing. They fit in perfectly to the description given in Ezekiel 34. 'They feed themselves and not the sheep'. I heard an awesome message from Donnie Swaggart recently. (By the way, Greg, have you ever heard him preach?) I have a tape he preached called "the Love of Money"(1 tim ch 6) and the quote "prosperity pimp" is from him. He called on all those ministers to repent and come back to the Cross. He preached in such a broken spirit too. But he also spoke as a Shepherd! I will send to Greg if the swaggarts ministry gives permission.I also wanted to add that I use to attend a church where they went for your pocketbook all the time.At the close of each message (90% of the time) they'd ask the congregation to show their faith by sowing a seed in Faith, etc. It always ended there. Initially I didn't see it but as I closely examined parts of the bible that didn't mesh well with the teaching, God began to reveal to me the error of this prosperity gospel. The scripture that stood out the most was in 1 Timothy 6 where it says that 'these corrupt men supposed that godliness was an avenue for gain..' and then afterward it says "from such people withdraw thyself.." I thank the Lord for His Word and that I had a pastor at the time, that embarrassingly admitted that he saw the same thing going on in the church and David Wilkerson's wife, Gwen also wrote me and encouraged me. Later on I spoke with the Senior Pastor about this and was told my perception is wrong. I then left that church but it grieves me to see some of my friends and family still there.(God bless those of you reading this). Sorry to jump in out of nowhere. My life has been touched (unfortunately) by both the prosperity gospel teaching and the seeker sensitive movement. But I know God can use that experience for His glory in that I will share with those I come in contact with, who are suffering from being in these types of churches. There are so many sheep these Last Days who are famished and can't find a church thats preaching the whole counsel of God(acts 20).But God will win! amen!!

Related thread: Katz; HoseaThe whole of it is worth reading, #6 in particular.P.S. JCGarc55 Sorry to jump in out of nowhere No need to apologize, it's actually to be encouraged, that's what these discussions are all about, wrestling with issues, trying to help each other, sharing our experiences... Thanks for your comments.P.P.S. Yes, I lied. I said I was done here. May never be truly done with this issue. Do want to add that my earlier comments I pray are directed at the issue, not at any particular individual here, if I have failed in that regard, forgive me.

Hi all,To crsschk: Testimonies are most powerful in evangelism and in Christian life. It is hard to argue with first-hand experiences like those you have shared in the previous post. In fact, I wonder why you did not do so earlier!I recall in Bakker's book, I Was Wrong (I really like this title!), he mentioned how he financially ruined himself partially because he over-extended his finances, thinking that God would bless his ministry.With respect to Copeland's book, crsschk's following point is important:This 'God' has 'formulas' and 'laws' that if you just know how to follow along you will become rich, prosperous, healthy, no problem.Yes, God fulfills his promises and God's heart is to bless his children. But God is also sovereign, and he works in his own mysterious way at his own timing. Copeland's ideas of "God's spiritual laws" and "God's system of finances" are potentially dangerous, because they could lead us to think that we could manipulate God's power by following a certain formula or pattern of cause and effect. Yet by doing so, we are really compromising God's sovereignty and putting him in a box.To todd: Regarding George Mueller, he did not live in self-imposed poverty. His testimony was that God provides the daily bread. He did not expect God to make him prosperous (in the sense of being financially wealthy); he expected God to provide what he needs today in God's own way. This is more in line with Jesus' own teachings.

Thanks Agent001 In fact, I wonder why you did not do so earlier!Good question.I think it's similar to smashing your thumb with a hammer, the first time it was an accident... ;-)

Amen .... I profoundly feel our Lord’s pain, the grief of the Holy Ghost on this "prosperity" issue, and am deeply burdened by it. When did we begin our folly of diligently seeking His hands, while completely ignoring His face, and the anointing of His feet? He’s really not pleased that we’ve locked into His covenant promises as our primary motivation for giving Him of our time, talents and especially money. When did we switch from our prime motivation being “loving the Lord our God with our all in all, and loving our neighbors as ourselves”. The U.S. Church particularly is causing our Husbandman great sadness. We’ve concocted some strange new heretical brew of lacing our American dream, into His Messianic theme,“supposing that gain is godliness” (1 Tim. 6:5). So now instead of being purely about the Kings business, we’re trying to do business with the King. God forgive us! When did we start defining His blessings toward us based primarily on jobs, cars, houses and cash? What ever happened to His grace being sufficient for our praise? His grace that assures we’re no longer hell bound! For that matter, what ever happened to hell fire preaching? We’ve become a sounding brass, and a tinkling cymbal. We are now salt without savor, a flickering match when we’re meant to be a bonfire. We have no love for the lost if we don’t proclaim that without salvation, Hell is an infinite sentence of fiery torment. We’re straining His long suffering. The great majority of Christ Church in America, had better do one huge massive U-turn on our carnal preoccupation with materialism, and we’d better do it NOW!!! God does not supplement idolatry, He destroys it. All of unsaved America, and 95% of saved America haven’t a clue as to the ultimate meaning of what He thundered to this nation on 9/11. It's time for the breaking up of our fallow ground (Hosea 10:12). In an 11:00 a.m. service in my church, on 1/25/04, the Lord said in my spirit, “The Seraphim (cleansing angels) are coming. God is long suffering to our apostasy, but we (like israel) forget that in his long suffering, his wrath is being stored up. Christ's final word to his Church in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 is "repent", and included are Christ's personal prophecies of His own Divine re-adjustments to his apostate church if we don't straighten up. He's coming for a an unblemished church, and He will not come again until as scripture states there be a great falling away first. How will these facts be brought to fruition? It's fire that usually refines. If He stays true to his old testament methodology first he'll send His prophet(s) of doom (in hopes of our voluntary spiritual repentance), if not then He'll send his actual prophecies of doom, His actual physical methods of readjustment, which scripturally is brought about via fierce men and/or adverse circumstances. Somehow either instance always snaps our attention back on the One it's supposed to be on 24/7! Judgement begins first at the house of the Lord ... The bottom line (for His Church first) is voluntary repentance, or divine readjustment (1 Pet. 4:17 - Mal. 3:1-4, - 2 Chron. 7:14,15 - Jer. 18: 1-6). We'd all best be about storing up treasures in heaven, and while down here I think the best financial plan for all Christians is Matt. 16:33 ... period!

Hmmmm .... I couldn't put the book “The God Chasers” down when I recieved it. The author stated on some occasions that he was not attempting to be flip in some of the areas that he did appear at first to be so. What stuck with me out of the book was where he said, “If we allow God to take us thru the complete process of repentance and brokenness without hindering or quenching the Holy Ghost, then the “kabod”, the Shekinah presence of God, comes among us and upon us, then we will be able to carry it without fear because we will be walking in the purity of Jesus and our flesh will be dead, soaked by the blood of the Lamb”. This spoke to me, "no purity no presence, no presence no power"! Then the author further states, “It’s time for some church, somewhere, to forget about trying to be a “politically correct church” and break open the heavenly storehouse of bread and start feeding the spiritually hungry”. I totally agree with this, and pray to God that yours, and my church, is that “some church”. The Lord has placed it upon my heart to attempt some shaking of my pastor, therefore my church via (Joel 1:14,15 and 2:16,17) ... It's not an easy task to be the Lord's vehicle of showing a "leader" that 2 Chron. 7:14 (laity) only happens after he and his ministerial staff "weep between the porch and the altar".

Quote:"These weren't all for you"Oh yeah, I guess I was getting a little self-centered there. Good point. I think I am getting a better understanding of your frustrations, especially since you have experienced harsh consequences of these teachings first hand. But could it be possible that either 1. The particular ways you were taught were flawed or 2. You misunderstood or just missed (never heard) certain key elements of the overall subject?I am going to start a new post tonight that I think will answer many, many questions. I don't know how to do the direct link thing or I would. Maybe one of you could put that on the next post or something.

Quote:"To todd: Regarding George Mueller, he did not live in self-imposed poverty. His testimony was that God provides the daily bread. He did not expect God to make him prosperous (in the sense of being financially wealthy); he expected God to provide what he needs today in God's own way. This is more in line with Jesus' own teachings."I was careful with my wording on purpose here. I never said that Muller lived in self-imposed "poverty" but I said "humble circumstances". See the thread I just started called "Blessing or Curse- Finances" to see how I would define "prosperity" and "poverty" and the greater relevance of this wording. I don't know what Muller expected from God, but I just read this a couple days ago concerning, what I would consider, Muller's prosperity (yes, financially as well):"Yet, with such men as George Muller, whose life was fully consecrated to God, over seven million dollars flowed in to make possible an undertaking which stands out in the Christian world as a shining example of wise stewardship" ("John Alexander Dowie, by Gordon Lindsay, p.58).So whether or not he "expected" it from God, God gave it to him, and he chose to use it for God's glory. God providing for his daily needs (which is perhaps appropriately all we are to expect), and then some, is a model example of prosperity as I understand it.

hmmmm.... I couldn't put the book ?The God Chasers? down when I recieved it. The author stated on some occasions that he was not attempting to be flip in some of the areas that he did appear at first to be so.I couldn't put it down either, as I said before it had me stirred up. It sounded all so spiritual, and after all, chasing after God is a great need in our time and some of what you quoted does sound very good. But when I went back over the book I saw the subtle deception that I had missed previously. One thing Tenney does right at the start is to remove the Bible as the basis from which to judge the experience he is promoting. Here's some comments from the beginning of the book"God chasers have a lot in common. Primarily, they are not interested in camping out on some dusty truth known to every one. They are after the fresh presence of the Almighty.""The difference between the truth of God and revelation is very simple. Truth is where God's been. Revelation is where God is. Truth is God's tracks. It's His trail, His path, but it leads to what? It leads to Him. Perhaps the masses of people are happy to know where God's been, but true God chasers are not content just to study God's trail.""A true God chaser is not happy with just past truth; he must have present truth. God chasers don't want to just study from the moldy pages of what God has done; they're anxious to see what God is doing."I was astounded that I didn't see this when I first went through this book, Tenney basically removes the Bible from the picture. Tenney says, "Truth is where God's been. Revelation is where God is." On the surface that may sound very wise and right, but it is wrong. Truth is where God has been all right, but truth is also where God is and He never steps outside of truth.In Christ,Ron

Hey Todd,I don't know if you remember a guy from an old SNL skit, he was called "The Liar"...Well he's back!I am going to start a new post tonight that I think will answer many, many questions. I don't know how to do the direct link thing or I would. Maybe one of you could put that on the next post or something. To do links;When you're writing a reply, on the top there is a series of tabs: "URL IMG EMAIL QUOTE"You want "URL"Depending on how you go about it you need to "copy" your intended target. I usually keep "Notepad" handy to copy and paste things to and from.So for instance say you want to copy this post to another thread. Go up to the address bar and highlight the whole thing (Click it or click and drag) then right click and select "copy".Go to your "New" post replyClick on the "URL" tabIn the box right click and select "paste"Select O.K.Another box will pop up where you can enter the title, type it in and click O.K.IF you experiment around with Notepad and use it to cut and paste it can really make things a lot easier. So for instance instead of remebering the "title" you can do the "highlight\\copy" on the 'title'and "paste" into Notepad first and then go through process above and then come back and fetch the "title".If you are doing more than one "link" you can just copy it all into Notepad and then fetch from there.I made a shortcut to it (Notepad) on my taskbar so that it's readily available.Hope that helps.The "Liar" ;-)

But could it be possible that either 1. The particular ways you were taught were flawed or 2. You misunderstood or just missed (never heard) certain key elements of the overall subject?1.Well....Yes! Completely flawed!1a. No! Their ways were pretty 'flawless' in their flawed teaching.2. No. Not in the context of joining these two words; "Prosperity" and "Gospel" and the meanings they pour into them.2a.Even if this is so, would I want to take a bite out of an arsenic sandwich, even if it's only a couple of drops? And in these cases they are so loaded that just a whiff is enough.Now if you want to say that because of The Gospel, that Jesus died for my sins and by that and that alone, I am prosperous...Then whether in this world I have riches or am poor, naked, struck down, persecuted, hated, loved or rejected or any combination there of...then, yes I am prosperous.(never heard) certain key elements of the overall subject?From who's perspective?Not sure if you are defending this or not.We have yet to hear just what these other misunderstandings are...Maybe your new thread will help clear this up.Look, obviously my dander level has been raised over this issue. There is a certain built in difficulty in responding through this means of communication, especially if you are not well versed in writing, as I am not, just barely got through High School with an assortment of undamaged brain cells.So bare with me, this is more from the gut than from the head. My concern is over the danger of all this as it relates to the original question; "Prosperity Gospel" which is no gospel at all as it is taught.What of the questions that were raised earlier?Of all the harm this has done?Shall we just overlook them to get to the misunderstandings?What about the fact that this is only a part of a whole philosophy, in fact I will say that it is a cult.The names of which are already familiar, WOF etc.I rescind my earlier statement, to quote Mr. Baker: "I Was Wrong".I thought I was done here, with this issue.How dare I leave this alone, while the sheep are being led to the slaughter.No, we are just getting started. I want to drive a stake into this nonsense.The time for niceties is far past and this is not an attack on you but on this false 'gospel' so I hope that can be kept in mind and do correct me if I stray or my zeal gets mis-directed.The gloves are off.____________________________________________Blessing or Curse- FinancesRead this and am curious how you want to proceed.Is there more to come?Should we start another thread to discuss it?Why would you not have us to respond there? Isn't that kind of confusing? Or would you rather that we respond to it here in this posting?Just some clarifications brother.Lastly, I love you brother. So much so not get to the bottom of all this and hopefully to the benefit of all that frequent these pages here.Mike

Todd,I think I am getting a better understanding of your frustrations, especially since you have experienced harsh consequences of these teachings first hand. But could it be possible that either 1. The particular ways you were taught were flawed or 2. You misunderstood or just missed (never heard) certain key elements of the overall subject?Or 3. The teachings are plainly wrong.I assume you are addressing crsschk. I offer my observation that his characterisation of "prosperity teaching" is largely true of Kenneth Copeland's book. In my view, this rules out the possibility of (2)--that he somehow "misunderstood or just missed certain key elements of the overall subject."So the book is either (3) or (1). Therefore, Copeland is either plainly wrong, or he misrepresents the position. If you think the latter is true, then the burden is on you to produce the proper presentation.

I just made a mistake I haven't made for a long time. I wrote a lot, went down to eat dinner, then came back up and hit "preview" only to realize i'd been booted off the site and lost everything I had without having copied yet. Quote:"We have yet to hear just what these other misunderstandings are...Maybe your new thread will help clear this up."Yes I think it does. Such as your understanding on the teaching of prosperity that if you are struggling financially it must be because you don't have enough faith. Prince doesn't deny this is a possibility, but gives other reasons why this might be the case. If you do trust God but are still struggling financially and it's not a direct result of commitment to Christ, it could be either a season of testing your faith or be due to a curse.Please comment on the thread. I just don't want to get into the whole big issue of whether or not blessings and curses are even relevant or not at all on this side of the cross (at least not on that thread). But as it relates to our current topic, please comment. Sorry for the confusion again. Thanks for setting up the link.

"YOU MUST FIRST HAVE THE SENSE OF GOD'S TOTAL POSSESSION OF YOU, BEFORE YOU CAN SENSE THE PEACE OF GOD'S TOTAL PRESENCE IN YOU" - WATCHMAN NEE. Seems to me that so much, if not all, of Christian frustration in circumstance stems from our "double minded" attempt to secure our peace in God's presence, without the total relinquishing of our "self", including our "financial situation", to His divine possession (Matt. 6:22-34, Phil. 4:11-13, James 1:8). Once we accepted Christ our "old man" (including his cares) died with him on the cross, and our "new man" (who should only care for the cares of Christ) arose with Him in new found power in His resurrection (Rom. 6:1-18). We are now totally His, including our financial status ... period! (1Cor. 6:19). As with the boy who gave his bread to Jesus for the feeding of the 5,000, we gave your "self" to Christ with our acceptance of him as our Saviour. Jesus takes the offering of our "self" very seriously, even if we don't, so regardless He proceeds to break us (He breaks what He takes), then after breaking us He blesses us, and then He begins to miraculously distribute us towards the meeting of the needs of others (John 6:9-13). In Him we are supposed to stop hassling in our "old nature" way about what we might eat or drink, and am supposed to be more consumed with what others may eat or drink. That's why He said (now operating in our "new man") to "GIVE" (first), and it shall be given unto you (second). Seek (first) His kingdom and His righteousness, and ALL other THINGS shall be added unto you (second). BRING your TITHES and OFFERINGS into the STOREHOUSE (first), and He will open up the windows of heaven (second). I myself used to be hung up on prosperity, until the Holy Ghost revealed to me that anything put before God is a golden calf, and we all know how our Lord feels about golden calves. Once I surrendered to His breaking of me, that's when I got His blessing of me. Once I surrendered to the mind of Christ regarding (tithes, offerings and alms) that when He began giving to me so that He can give thru me. Stewardship. I may not be as materially rich as others, or as materially rich as I'm going to be, but bless God I'm presently as materially rich as He wants me to be. And I firmly believe that that growth has everything to do with my now seeking His face and feet even more diligently than I once sought His hands. I believe the reason why so many Christians are struggling with their finances today, is because we are quenching and grieving the Holy Spirit in His effort to break, bless and distribute us to the glory of Christ. We're actively reneging Him His right to do so, because we're so much more wrapped up in our concerns about our "self", and especially what we materially posses (1 Thes. 5:19, Eph. 4:30). We have in essence married our Lord, but are denying Him our intimacy as if we're still only dating. We want to gold dig Him for his gifts, but fein headaches at his desiring of our spiritual "due benevolence" which Rom. 12:1 calls "our reasonable service". Complete humility to His ownership of us (including our financial status) is the only solution to our financial/mental anguish (James 4:8;10). If we keep our noses clean before the Lord, we all should be able to, like Paul, "be content in whatever situation we find ourselves in". Great material gain is not Godliness, But Godliness in contentment is great spiritual gain ... Amen ... and with we Christians it all supposed to be about the spiritual. All these "prosperity boys" are preaching that an unprecedented time of wealth is coming to Christ Church ... I wonder ... He said that He was coming for a Chuch without "spot or wrinke", He said He would not come until "there be a great falling away first". He said in Rev. chapters 2 & 3 repent of our "apostasy" or else. According to Acts 4 it wasn't times of prosperity that persuaded the early Christians to do the following: [32] And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. [33] And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. [34] Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, [35] And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. [36] And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, [37] Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet. None of us are where we need to be, but by His grace I pray that He will SOON disconnect His Chuch from our selfish "old nature" driven cares, the "lust of the flesh", "the lust of the eye", and the one that seems to be crippling the American Church the most, "the pride of life". Lord Jesus, by any means necessary, please transform your Bride from a silly woman laden with sin, into your glorius virgin without spot or wrinkle ... Amen.

Hi all,Todd, sorry to hear you've lost what you typed.In terms of the other thread on Derek Prince, I note this observation: Derek Prince seems to be more associated with the "shepherding movement" than with the "prosperity movement." It seems clear to me from the article that Prince's understanding of "prosperity" is markedly different from Kenneth Copeland's.We should agree upon the target before we shoot the arrow.

Maybe your new thread will help clear this up."Yes I think it does. Such as your understanding on the teaching of prosperity that if you are struggling financially it must be because you don't have enough faith. Prince doesn't deny this is a possibility, but gives other reasons why this might be the case. If you do trust God but are still struggling financially and it's not a direct result of commitment to Christ, it could be either a season of testing your faith or be due to a curse."Possibility", "might be", "could be"This is all speculation, worse yet it only fosters more confusion.God is soverigen.Was about to select a verse out of James, but as I was reading it soon became apparent the whole book applies here.I don't think we have gone far enough back of all of this.This, like the whole of Christianity that our Lord and the apostles taught us, is a heart issue.We have Old Testament types and shadows and New Testament fullfilment in our Lord. Did Jesus not truly show what the issues were?Outwordly vs. inwardly?"Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart"Mat 5:27,28Look at all the teachings on money, riches, poverty and so forth. What is at the root of it? And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God. And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Luk 12:16-34 Was having a conversation related to all this yesterday and how in many cases 'Christians' are the stingiest people around when it comes to a real need, helping the poor, a neighbor.For many it seems to be for show:So whenever you give to the poor, don't blow a trumpet before you like the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets so that they will be praised by people. Truly I tell you, they have their full reward! But when you give to the poor, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be done in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you." Mat 6:2-4Or for personal gain:If any man teacheth a different doctrine, and consenteth not to sound words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is puffed up, knowing nothing, but doting about questionings and disputes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, wranglings of men corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, supposing that godliness is a way of gain. But godliness with contentment is great gain: for we brought nothing into the world, for neither can we carry anything out; but having food and covering we shall be therewith content. But they that are minded to be rich fall into a temptation and a snare and many foolish and hurtful lusts, such as drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 1Ti 6:3-11You could fill pages upon pages of scripture relating to what has been taught on money, being good stewards of what God has given us.But the question begs an answer;Are peoples heart's changed or not?What is the meaning behind "God loves a cheerful giver?"Do we really need to be coereced into all of this?I thought it was a natural outflow of a changed life...that you would want to give out of the love that has been shed abroad in our hearts.Think I am more amazed that any of this even needs to be 'taught'...Does it not seem strange that the ones that would really like to give away their finances are often the very one's that are strapped finanicially?Why is that?That's just something to ponder, more speculation isn't going to get us any further along.God is soverign.

Thanks RAHMAN,Looks as though we posted at about the same time.Good insight's.Todd, bless you brother, whatever your intentions were going into this...look at the fruit being developed here!It has caused us all to explore this in depth and I believe this will be a help to many even as it continues to develop.Here is another related look into the subject: Katz; Hosea

Amen, and thanks crsschk ... To all, please forgive that I've posted without "salutation" to my fellows in Christ. I'm new to this forum ... it's wonderful, and I am blessed by your discussion.

Crsschk you stated: ((( Does it not seem strange that the ones that would really like to give away their finances are often the very one's that are strapped finanicially? )))This instantly made me think of a story from a Leonard Ravenhill (my favorite) sermon. He said, "There once was a man who came to church, who had only a dollar and a dime to his name. The man told God that he would give Him the dime if He would bless him to be a millionaire. God said back to the man, No, give me the dollar. The man obeyed, and reasoning that the dime was of no use to him the man gave it to God also. Years later, in the process of that same man standing before this same church congregation, and relaying that it was because of his giving all that he possesed to God that God made him a millionaire, a little old sister on the front row muttered, I dare you to do it again ... That sent chills up and down my spine when I heard it. It's easier to give all that we have when it's only a dollar and ten cents. But just supposing God blessed/cursed us to millions, and then required that we give it all. Now that's a test of integrity I believe few of us could handle. That's why my quest on this low plane is to get, and to abide in that contented place called His "peace that surpasseth all understanding". I've been saved for 25 years, and I've just now gotten to what it's really all about ... Christ, and Him crucified ... All else is sinking sand ... Amen

.... and the Holy Spirit just reminded me "perfect" peace which supasses all understanding" ... Amen

To all, please forgive that I've posted without "salutation" to my fellows in Christ. I'm new to this forum ... it's wonderful, and I am blessed by your discussionAnd do forgive for not offering you a warm welcome, glad to have you brother!You will have to give us the title of that sermon!That sent chills up and down my spine when I heard itYikes! Ditto!Now that's a test of integrity I believe few of us could handle.Agreed! or would that be a-greed?That's why my quest on this low plane is to get, and to abide in that contented place called His "peace that surpasseth all understanding". Enter His rest...Heb 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. I've been saved for 25 years, and I've just now gotten to what it's really all about ... Christ, and Him crucified ... All else is sinking sand ... Amen25! Praise God! If we were to take this exhortation to heart, very well may shave off a few years of striving...thinking outloud here...

Brethren,There is another posting here (thanks Lars) that may apply, but in a slightly different way;Zeal, Love AblazeLeonard RavenhillIf anyone has or is inclinded to read through it, would appreciate to know if I myself have lapsed into a misguided zeal as it relates to this particular subject. My intentions here are not to cause division or harm, nor to bring judgement upon anybody.From the aforementioned post:"Why is it important to stay in the right spirit? Because there’s a lot more at stake than who’s right or wrong - I’m talking about eternal souls."Not looking for praise, concerned that if I am off I could do undo harm and would prefer to nip it in the bud, now. Still have a looong ways to go in this walk and there are many here with much more spiritual maturity than myself.Thanks.

Crsschk, I don't remember the sermon that "story" came from but when I come across it again I will be careful to note it.I know what you mean about not trying to cause division and harm, I post what I post out of love attempting (by the Spirit's leading) to "be as wise as a serpent, but as gentle as a dove". When it comes to my "diligently seeking" fellow joint heirs I attempt to point to Christ's truth in what He did while here, or what His Bible says we should do under the Holy Ghost. Now in dealing with straight up apostasy, I'm not adverse to the Holy Ghost's using me to bust up the temple. All I know is that Paul was so much a "prisoner" of Christ that he didn't care anything about anything that had to do with this low plane. He was "content" even in tribulation, unto death. I ponder in awe often of how mighty a testimont that is, so is it any wonder that Jesus used the man to proselytize the entire known world, and to write the bulk of the owners manual for the Church? Listening to these sermons everyday has brought me to a place of weeping often for the Church, the world, and the fact that I'm far from being like Paul. I want to be like him, and I wonder often how Christ Church would be if we ever come to the point of really not caring about what we eat or drink, and not love our lives even unto death for Jesus. No I don't sense any misguided zeal on this board from anyone, I feel Christ's love. But I do feel pain that has been caused by a demonicly inspired heresy of what's come to be known as the "prosperity doctrine", and I pray that our Lord will come quickly and "fight against them with the sword of His mouth" ... Amen PS - Have a great weekend! ... love in Christ!

RAHMAN, thanks for your contribution to the discussion. I agree with much of what you said and at the same time still believe that there is much important truth in all this prosperity stuff. Agent001,Quote:"In terms of the other thread on Derek Prince, I note this observation: Derek Prince seems to be more associated with the "shepherding movement" than with the "prosperity movement." It seems clear to me from the article that Prince's understanding of "prosperity" is markedly different from Kenneth Copeland's.We should agree upon the target before we shoot the arrow."Good point. I guess my target might have kind of evolved as the discussion has gone on. I think the target I am now shooting at is the husk of truth in this subject of prosperity. So even if it's true that Derek Prince is "more" associated with the "shepherding movement" (which I would like to know why you think that) than the "prosperity movement", I think it's very relevant to the target I just mentioned. I think he finds a healthy (mature) balance between extremes. He doesn't go to one extreme and say prosperity teaching is demonic (or that poverty is a blessing) and he doesn't swing to the other extreme and say that it's the most important issue. Yes, there's more important things, but nevertheless this is very important. I think I will largely be evaluating everything else I read on this subject from that excerpt. I would rather have discussion about that on that thread, though. Crsschk,Quote:""Possibility", "might be", "could be"This is all speculation, worse yet it only fosters more confusion."Yes I guess you could say it is speculation (though I think there might be a better term to use), because we are talking about general theory and in reality each individual case is complex and there are a variety of possibilites. This makes things much clearer to me. Quote:"God is soverign"agreed. What I am getting at is that prosperity is a blessing of God, and the financial aspect of it is significant.

I clearly remember watching an unnamed TV evangelist years ago take up an offering. The ushers took many huge garbage can containers up across the front of the sanctuary (instead of offering plates.) The "audience" was then asked (as the ushers stood waiting by the garbage cans)if anyone had a curse of God on their finances because they had not been using their money for God, and if so, they were to come on up and lay their hands on the garbage cans and get prayed for to receive deliverance before the offering was received. Of course no one came forward. It was put in such a way that if you could not give, you were living under the judgement and wrath of God...the prosperity doctrine. Then the offering was "taken." The garbage cans were overflowing with money. What a sad way for the shepherd to treat the sheep of God. I believe he was not a shepherd...but only a hireling.Personally, I would rather my tithes be given to a shepherd who takes care of me...instead of some distant TV evangelist who doesn't know me. A dear elderly friend of mine passed on to Glory in December. But, she received some of these photocopied "prophecies" from some TV evangelist who made probably thousands of copies of a few handwritten pages. He prophesied her healing in 2003. She died.Of course, she is no longer a blind, diabetic, nor lonely widow. That was God's gift of healing for her. But, the TV evangelist seemed to be making alot of money from dear old ladies who trusted them. I am predisposed against all such teachings and the prosperity doctrine. I don't expect to walk in finery when Christ wore a crown of thorns.

Yep.Just another example of manipulation.A thought I have been chewing on in regards to all of this here;The reason I said that this is one case where we could 'throw the baby out with the bath water' is because it starts off on the wrong premise and deteriorates from there.Certainly there are true riches, true blessings and true 'prosperity', I just don't think you can extract it out of this mess. Better to start from scratch me thinks....2 more cent's on the pile.

My pleasure Todd, I find prosperity is a much discussed topic amongst many Christians in my circle. I have many friends who are Creflo Dollar fans. My only problem with Dr. Dollar is that he doesn't expound on the reason why God choses (some) to financial prosperity, mainly our becoming His tool toward the financial blessing of others, and that he has a tendency to promote piety as an attainment of financial promise. 1 Timothy comes down pretty hard on "piety for profit". I've pointed out to a few of my friends that in Dr. Dollar's latest series on "Holiness" he seems to be going left field on his following, now telling them that if they're pursuing holiness to God for profit, that it's a vain and sin laden offering. One can tell that they're now very confused because the hoops and cheers to his usual message have been traded in for a baffled gaze in silence. Dr. Dollar in this series uses the word "you" exclusively toward his disciples in the commiting of this error, when I think he should be falling down on his knees in repentance crying "we" (including himself, as he is the ring leader). I think the time is nigh that a great shaking is coming to the body of Christ, and that Christ is about to fight against all "doctrine" that is not of Him with the sword protruding from His mouth. Somehow like David, we've forgotten that God has His own rules of religion, and that as Christians we're supposed to be bearers of His cross as the Levite were of the ark, but now we've got our own new formulas of convienent doctrine borne by our own heathen inspired carts. Yea, I think Jesus is about to throw a bump into our road, and a multitude of Uzzah's will pay the ultimate price ... Amen

Todd:I do find Derek Prince's article in your other thread, Blessed or Cursed much more palatable than Kenneth Copeland's book, The Law of Prosperity.Derek Prince thinks "abundance" is God's blessing and "poverty" is God's curse. However, it is important to note that he redefines poverty in relation to God's will such that "poverty is having less than all you need to do God's will in your life." From this point of view, his understanding of prosperity is not as extreme as Copeland's.In contrast, what Kenneth Copeland seems to be saying, is that God has a specific "spiritual law", "system of finances", or "covenant" governing money matters. This is really saying that there is a formula for getting rich because there are causal relationships that even God must follow. Hence, if you "sow one dollar of seed money on God", you are guaranteed a hundred-fold return. He failed to mention at any point that God is sovereign. He gives according to his sovereign will and he takes away according to his sovereign will. No one is guaranteed financial success and prosperity. Rather, we are to look to God for his daily supply.Agent001

Agent001 wrote:Derek Prince thinks "abundance" is God's blessing and "poverty" is God's curse. However, it is important to note that he redefines poverty in relation to God's will such that "poverty is having less than all you need to do God's will in your life." From this point of view, his understanding of prosperity is not as extreme as Copeland's.Agent001That does seem to be the crux of the whole prosperity movement...the idea that "abundance" is God's blessing and "poverty" is God's curse.But, often poverty has been a blessing for God's people and prosperity a curse. Each man has their own individual gift. Some are given to prosperity and some poverty; some to marriage and some to singleness; some to working in the secular world and some to preaching the gospel. What is difficult for the carnal mind to accept is that God has a plan for each of us as mentioned in Jeremiah 29:11, and it may not be the same plan He has for our brother and sister sitting on the pew beside us.