Think and Grow Rich

WARNING! There is a real danger to your walk with God in reading this book. It is very easy to get off track in our walk with the Lord. I am posting this for the purpose of information only.

This book, written by Napoleon Hill, is probably one of the most significant pieces of literature affecting our society in the 20th century. It has flown under the radar of the Church in large part because we as Christians recognize that we cannot serve God and mammon. The book is however, required reading for management in most fortune 500 companies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_and_Grow_Rich

In this book, Hill describes his 7 imaginary spirit guides. He trusts these imaginary friends implicitely. They give him advice and inspiration. The secrets to success that Hill espouses were given to him by these "friends".

It is no great stretch to recognize that these friends are nothing less than demons. Understand then, that the world of big business has been taking advice from demons for years and years. Is it any wonder we see such ungodliness on TV, in advertising (more on this later) and in movies?

The ramifications of this are extensive. In the coming days and weeks I will be posting more about the far reaching affect this has had on our world and on the Church.

In His Love,

Doug

[edit]

Well Jim, that just about says it all :-(

While there may be a corelation between Hill's book and the heresy of word of faith teaching, the impact goes much MUCH deeper.

Picture if you will, a board room. At the head of this table sits our chief adversary. Around the table sit his demonic princes. They are having a brainstorming session...

The topic at hand, how can we poison the minds of the human race against God and His Son. Too many people are getting saved and we must do something to stop the flow!

One of the demons pipes up. "I saw some of my own doing a study, they took a single frame of one of their movies and replaced it with a picture of ice cold cola and a box of candy. At intermission the concession sales nearly doubled. It got me to thinking. What if we began to bombard the human race with subconcious images that will cause them to desire sin even more than they do now?

Brilliant...

They succeeded. The reality of todays world is that nearly every single piece of advertising that your eye takes in contains a subliminal message. At first the message consisted of a single word written as many places as possible on printed (magazines etc) advertising. That word was sex. This will be very uncomfortable to face. Many of you won't believe this. Some may even want to lash out at me in anger. This word is even printed across the forhead of Keith and Melody Green as they smile for the camera with thier fingers forming a cross. Please note!! I am NOT accusing the Greens of any sin or evil. Keith Green was a brother whose heart was after God. NO QUESTION! His music has ministered to me for years. Never the less, the printed covers of his albums still had this subliminal text implanted on it. This is just an example. It wouldn't matter which gospel artist's album you look at. This stuff was there in most if not all.

It is important here to get back to the book by Mr Hill. This subliminal advertising did not make its way into our world via mankinds brilliant notions. It got here because money is the root of all (much?) evil. Men who desired wealth read this book and began seeking demonic advice on how to increase thier sales. The subliminal ads that followed are one result.

So, Does this affect the church? You bet it does. Is there anyone out there who has not watched television or read magazines or looked at the cover of a Keith Green album? If the answer is no, then every single one of us has had some level of subliminal brain washing impact how we think.

This is a difficult subject. Maybe you begin to understand why I have been unwilling to this point to say anything. But I am compelled to begin to say what is in my understanding.

As I close this, I am reminded of my sign off "In His Love". There is nothing here that shows the tenderness and care I feel for you all. Please know that I am sincere when I say...

In His Love,

Doug

The following is a copy of a post from the "Pastoral Feedback" thread. After posting it I realized that it makes a good next chapter in this thread.

One of the main points that I want to find a way to communicate has to do with the believers worldview. The reason I began talking about the devil's use of subliminal messaging has to do with one of his main objectives. He understands that much of our effectiveness as Christians is derived from our level of intimacy with the Father. When Jesus died the scripture tells us that the veil in the temple was rent from top to bottom. Through Jesus sacrifice we now have access to the very Holy of Holies! Yet so many of todays Christians do not consistently enter into that holy place. Why? It is my assertion that one causal factor in this is the effectiveness of this subliminal brain washing of man. One of his purposes is to create a deep inner dis-ease. An inner voice that tells us that we do not measure up. We can only measure up if we are successful, or beautiful, or own nice things such as a new car or the latest fashions etc. he has had great success in his endeavors. We as a society are deeply dis-eased. Even those of us who were redeemed early in life have been exposed to this subteranean mental destruction. We read the word of God that says we have been made acceptable through Christ, yet our inner man doesn't really believe it.

Enough said for now. Thoughts and reactions anyone?

In His Love,

Doug

brethren
i am currently reading this book and am finding it pretty interesting. so far whatever i feel led to grasp i do so and discard whatever is of no use. i don't think it's a bad thing to be rich at all, however, our stewardship of what is God's is key here.

why do we want to be rich? for ourselves or to be used of God to tend to others?

how do we attain wealth? by unscrupulous means or honestly?

the problem with most saints and wealth and the disdain (sometimes) shown to wealthy people is because us as saints KNOW we would be out there acting crazy if we had a bunch of money. i was once that way but God has been cleansing that out of me for some time now in preparation for stewardship. i bless Him for it. i personally don't base my success on what i have, i don't have much. i have an old BMW which cost me a WHOLE lot less than what most people drive if that counts. i'm a car buff, i like reading up on what's new and all the technology and aesthetics which goes into the new cars etc. i have some cars i'd like to own but would not be devastated or diminished in any way shape or form if i never owned them.

indeed society has been infected with this need to prove something by what one has, hence people go into all kinds of debt to make a statement. this incidentally drives the economy by the way so much of what we think is prosperity is a front...but that's neither here nor there. the enemy is a master at pandering to our lusts, if you want to get some more info, google "the century of self" on google video.

speaking for myself, i'm not one who places my worth in anything on earth, my treasure is in heaven. i do know that God will give me great increase in wealth but He has shown me why, i'm a steward of His resources. that does come with perks of course such as provision for whatever i need and God will humour whatever i desire as long as it lines up with what He desires for me which is pretty cool.

Napoleon Hill was Christian was he not?

Napoleon Hill was Christian was he not?

My dear brother!!

Did you read the opening post on this thread?

Napoleon Hill was a demon possessed fool!

Just what do you think his 7 imaginary friends are? Angels?

Brother, I agree that some people are given a gift of generosity and wealth from the Lord, but if you try to use ANY, and I mean ANY of the methods Hill espouses you are risking your very salvation! WAKE UP!

Speaking the truth in love, not condemation,

Doug

Hi everyone. This may not seem related but I wanted to offer it as a gentle word of exhortation for us to consider.

It has to do with two things that I think I've begun to learn and retain:

[i]God tests us on the things He teaches us[/i]

[i]God tests us on the things we teach others[/i]

All grace and sufficiency be with your spirits in Jesus.

Hi Brethren,

I listened to the Juxtaposition of Carter Conlon and Joyce Meyers preachng. As we consider the spiritual darkness that seems to have frozen the American Church, and try to imagine what kind of 'miracle' it will take to thaw us from our ice age, from the coast to coast glacier that we are imprisoned in...consider this compliation the very kind of hot spring from heaven we need.

Although I have personally known many Christian friends and family members who felt the way Carter Conlon did in this sermon...it startles me to admit I have never once sat under a preacher...or even heard a preacher say anything close to this message. I am not talking of course about Sermon Index, or Sermon Audio resources...I am talking about the churches I have attended ever since I was a little boy.

Or should I say 'ziggarauts' I've attended.

Recently when I challenge the endless building programs of our churches I have been accused of judging. When I become teary over the lack of eternity in our churches I am accused of speaking from some personal hurt. When I turn down requests to play in praise bands (sic) I am suspected of not being a worshipper. When I say that church is not a community of believers and unbelievers alike but a communion of the saints in Christ, I am accused of not 'reaching out..."

In these days as the hour grows more desperate, I am amazed to witness that it grows more luxurious and decadent for the church. It is a baffling mystery to me. The two latest Barnum Polls reveal that in all points of character and conduct the evangelical church is absolutely no different then the world...except that Christians are statistically slightly more addicted to porn then the world...probably because many of us are too white washed to commit open adultery.

Perhaps some of us do say these things out of judgment or hurt...but not of our own and not on our behalf. Brethren, like many here, graced with a love for the Church, even the worldly churches we have grown up in... we turn our faces like flints towards heaven and occasionally create sparks of friction amidst our friends. Their offense is reasonable...afterall they knew us when we joined in their celebrations. By the waters of Babylon we sat... and celebrated.

I am only a mild person...admittedly filled with unbelieving fear and prideful self-consciousness. I can imagine if there was a bolder man here, there might actually be a flame to help thaw the church in these parts. This is why I am so thankful for preaching like Carter Conlon...how the Christian soul in America is starved and malnourished from a lack of such shepherding! Forgive my sharing here...it helps to tap out morse code in the darkness now and then and recieve a confirmation.

Inspite of my weakness, I am left with a conclusion that perhaps many teachers of the finer points of the law may disagree with...affluence corrupts the Church. Let's not be clever and argue that it's not money that is the root of evil, but our love of it...money supplies it's own love with carnal people. It is wise to mistrust it because it changes what ever it touches in excess. Baking Soda may say that it can touch vinegar without changing but that would be the Baking Soda speaking...soon after mixing with vinegar the Baking Soda would be changed into something else that sees the world in a whole new way. It wouldn't even remember it's former state of existence. So it is with Christians who think they are stronger then money.

"We can stand affliction better then we can prosperity, for in prosperity we forget God." Dwight Moody.

"When I have any money, I rid of it as quickly as possible, lest it find a way into my heart". John Wesley

MC

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14488&forum=35]Zac Poonen [/url]

Interesting to find this thread at the same time of this recent message preached by Zac Poonen that I would heartedly recommened (There is a video linked in the above).

This will be very uncomfortable to face. Many of you won't believe this. Some may even want to lash out at me in anger. This word is even printed across the forhead of Keith and Melody Green as they smile for the camera with thier fingers forming a cross. Please note!! I am NOT accusing the Greens of any sin or evil. Keith Green was a brother whose heart was after God. NO QUESTION! His music has ministered to me for years. Never the less, the printed covers of his albums still had this subliminal text implanted on it. This is just an example. It wouldn't matter which gospel artist's album you look at. This stuff was there in most if not all.

MC, once again you have spoken the same heart cries ...

bro Doug
you may want to read this about him on wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Hill

i read the opening post and i have to ask, what makes you think that these friends of his were demons?how did you come to this conclusion? has God not given His angels charge over us and do they not work in our lives as they once did? or has God changed and so stopped this?

Napoleon Hill was a demon possessed fool!

that is a pretty harsh accusation. did Christ not say that to call a brother a fool is to risk being cast into the lake of fire? are you not also risking your salvation by using that word? or perhaps i am misapplying what Christ said?

Brother, I agree that some people are given a gift of generosity and wealth from the Lord, but if you try to use ANY, and I mean ANY of the methods Hill espouses you are risking your very salvation! WAKE UP!

such as first conceiving what you want to do, and focusing on it until it is done? then surely we all would be in such danger! do we not all set a goal and strive for it? or am i misreading you? does everything not start off as an idea, a concept which is then worked out moment by moment until it reaches fruition? is this not how God created? my only problem with such is if the concept is if it doesn't come from God Himself. Israel never gained wealth from it falling from the sky, they had to strive, God opened doors but they had to walk through.

bro Doug and all, i would ask though as i did in the first post:

why do we want wealth? for ourselves or for God's use?

do we gain wealth by shady means or honest?

bro Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi everyone. This may not seem related but I wanted to offer it as a gentle word of exhortation for us to consider.

It has to do with two things that I think I've begun to learn and retain:

[i]God tests us on the things He teaches us[/i]

[i]God tests us on the things we teach others[/i]

All grace and sufficiency be with your spirits in Jesus.

He does indeed!

bro MC

I listened to the Juxtaposition of Carter Conlon and Joyce Meyers preachng. As we consider the spiritual darkness that seems to have frozen the American Church, and try to imagine what kind of 'miracle' it will take to thaw us from our ice age, from the coast to coast glacier that we are imprisoned in...consider this compliation the very kind of hot spring from heaven we need.

OUCH! much of the church is concerned with what is here and now in a manner which is completely unhealthy. We ought to be seeking the Kingdom (God's will) and all else would fall into place. For us to be thawed out of this fascination with the here and now, the here and now must be shattered before us in a way that there can be no leaning on it any more. only a slap from the hand of God can wake us now. the prophets have gone forth with the word of repentance which (as in times past) was largly ignored, the only thing left is judgment, but it always works.

Recently when I challenge the endless building programs of our churches I have been accused of judging. When I become teary over the lack of eternity in our churches I am accused of speaking from some personal hurt. When I turn down requests to play in praise bands (sic) I am suspected of not being a worshipper. When I say that church is not a community of believers and unbelievers alike but a communion of the saints in Christ, I am accused of not 'reaching out..."

you know, the organized Church has oft embarked on different programs (building or otherwise) which rather than make much of an impact about people's state in eternity, soothe the conscience. we ought to judge alright, if Holy Spirit is calling us to speak out, we ought to. to be concerned for eternity (or the lack of its preaching) is indeed for us who are concerned for eternity out of a personal hurt. For us to be so deeply concerned about eternity is to see it from God's own standpoint, it is personal for Him and so it is for us. To get us focused on eternity at this stage the only thing there is is the abasament of the present before our very eyes.

In these days as the hour grows more desperate, I am amazed to witness that it grows more luxurious and decadent for the church. It is a baffling mystery to me. The two latest Barnum Polls reveal that in all points of character and conduct the evangelical church is absolutely no different then the world...except that Christians are statistically slightly more addicted to porn then the world...probably because many of us are too white washed to commit open adultery.

indeed we as Christians have so much to be purged of. we expect and God does too, wickedness from the world, but in the Church, that is a frightful thing because it also gives occasion for the world to blaspheme and reject God because we're not acting right as His ambassadors.

Perhaps some of us do say these things out of judgment or hurt...but not of our own and not on our behalf. Brethren, like many here, graced with a love for the Church, even the worldly churches we have grown up in... we turn our faces like flints towards heaven and occasionally create sparks of friction amidst our friends. Their offense is reasonable...afterall they knew us when we joined in their celebrations. By the waters of Babylon we sat... and celebrated.

yes but now God has gotten hold of us and we see as He sees and weep and mourn. unless God so quickens those around us in the same way, they aren't going to see it. this is a tragedy of our situation, we don't even know we need to be saved unless God quickens us to it...

I am only a mild person...admittedly filled with unbelieving fear and prideful self-consciousness. I can imagine if there was a bolder man here, there might actually be a flame to help thaw the church in these parts. This is why I am so thankful for preaching like Carter Conlon...how the Christian soul in America is starved and malnourished from a lack of such shepherding! Forgive my sharing here...it helps to tap out morse code in the darkness now and then and recieve a confirmation.

i see an unlikely candidate for His use in you! Perfect! i feel the same but God will set us on fire in His time.

Inspite of my weakness, I am left with a conclusion that perhaps many teachers of the finer points of the law may disagree with...affluence corrupts the Church. Let's not be clever and argue that it's not money that is the root of evil, but our love of it...money supplies it's own love with carnal people. It is wise to mistrust it because it changes what ever it touches in excess. Baking Soda may say that it can touch vinegar without changing but that would be the Baking Soda speaking...soon after mixing with vinegar the Baking Soda would be changed into something else that sees the world in a whole new way. It wouldn't even remember it's former state of existence. So it is with Christians who think they are stronger then money

i still feel though that money is neutral and can't corrupt anyone unless it is inherent in that person to be so corrupted by money. Money only amplifies what one already is. with some saints who know what they are should be rightly wary of money because they will act out once they get hold of a big chunk of it. Obviously we all need money else we wouldn't work.

on the first quote from Dwight Moody:
indeed, i believe this is why the early Church didn't have much by way of wealth but shared whatever little they had and God honored it for they wanted not for anything.

on the second one from Wesley, this is where God is taking me, to stewardship and the giving out of wealth to the saints in need. God has long been purging me of my fleshly lusts for things and you don't know how much crap you have until it's time for purging...i bless God for His preparing me for such.

Ironman,

This is the first passage of scripture the Lord gave me to read today. I was not thinking of you when I turned to it, neither am I familiar enough with this book to know ahead of time what it would say. I stand behind my statements. The pope thinks he's a Christian too. I have done my duty to you before the Lord. I truly hope you get some discernment before it is too late and you have opened yourself up to spiritual forces of deception. Arguing the point is pointless.

The Watchman and His Message

Ezekial 33:1-11 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 "Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: 'When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, 3 when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman's hand.'
7 "So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. 8 When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you shall surely die!' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 9 Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
10 "Therefore you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: 'Thus you say, "If our transgressions and our sins lie upon us, and we pine away in them, how can we then live?"' 11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

In Christ,

Doug

There is a reason that I posted what I posted. In war, and we are at war, it is important to understand the tactics of your enemy. Finding the means to communicate the depth of what I need to say regarding this area is taking some time. I ask for your patience before drawing conclusions and calling me a sensationalist. Take a step back, please!

A major goal of the devil is to create a deep sense of insecurity in the inner man of every man, woman and child on this planet. The subliminal advertising is one of his major methods. he is succeeding. The level of societal neuroticism today is staggering! Can we not recognize that our culture is going over the edge as compared to let's say the 50's?

Keith Green (yes, that Keith Green) wrote a song titled "No one believes in me anymore". It was written as though the devil himself were exulting in our lack of discernment.

Believe me brethren. I did not want to start this thread. I have recognized this since the early 80's and have resisted being obedient in communicating it ever since. But the word He gave me out of Isaiah 62 is "I can no longer hold my peace."

Soon I will get back to adding another "chapter" to this thread, I hope the application to us as Christians will begin to get a little clearer at that time.

In His Love,

Doug

bro Doug
ok then, i will read it for myself and see for myself. i asked some direct questions of you which you didn't respond to and i hope you do if God leads. at any rate it has been made clear to me by God what this wealth is for and with that in mind, i'll do what He has asked me to do.

what is it exactly do you think i should be wary of in terms of being deceived?

have you considered maybe you may be deceived perhaps?

not being combative but trying to get at what exactly has you so concerned.

bro Doug

A major goal of the devil is to create a deep sense of insecurity in the inner man of every man, woman and child on this planet. The subliminal advertising is one of his major methods. he is succeeding. The level of societal neuroticism today is staggering! Can we not recognize that our culture is going over the edge as compared to let's say the 50's?

i agree and can plainly see where he has done such through big business and helping big business pander to our flesh. i've since been loosed from all that, praise God. i know full well who i am in God's sight and so i have no need to prove myself by the world's standards nor have i any insecurity which can be exploited by material things or the lure thereof. there are a great many though who are still in bondage who need to be loosed...forcefully so. when all is said and done, God still tends to our physical needs and as long as we are here, there will always be stewards charged with that task.

Hi Ironman,

Thanks for your dialogue bro.

I wanted to both affirm and disagree at the same time on this point. (...some people might say I'm trying to ride 'two horses' at the same time, :-) )

i still feel though that money is neutral and can't corrupt anyone unless it is inherent in that person to be so corrupted by money. Money only amplifies what one already is.

Of course I agree with this in theory. Then again theorectically it isn't sex or political power that corrupts the soul either. Like they say, "guns don't kill people, people kill people."

And I certainly don't disagree that we all need money to live! The poorer you are the more you need it like oxygen!

Yet, there is something missing in this detached perspective. Money does indeed amplify the heart...but I am also concluding that too much of it weakens the heart.

These days we have plenty of self-sufficient saints, always looking inward for their guidance to an inner voice. Self-sufficiency is regarded as strength to the world, but I find in Christ it is weakness. Money only enables this myopy further.

Now we are talking not so much about paper engravings of the Presidents, or long digital positive numbers smiling back at you when you visit your online bank...we are talking about a system that provides all of your needs and even a few fantasies in a way that replaces God.

I was out with my family this weekend at a shopping mall. How wildly sensual, violent, and yet luxurious and civilized our 'babylon' is! The voice of God is very squelched in our world...not just because of money but because of the whole pagan penumbra that not only blots out the Son, (even in most churches) but also lovingly provides for your every need---as long as you serve it faithfully. It will provide insurance for your children, cures for your deseases, a roof over your head, let you sleep safe and sound at night next to a beautiful spouse, fill your belly with whatever suits you, and your mind with amusement, and it will even give you a deep sense of purpose and identity. Well looky there... it will even build you a fine church facility.

It's only price is that you put it first. Now it doesn't mind you doing something symbolic for the true God. Make a sandwhich for a hungry person...write a song about giving all for God...as long as you secretly reserve your utmost worship for money in fear and trepidation.

This is the scenareo of living in Bablyon I would paint to anyone who thinks God has called them to make money for Him. Be careful brothers! Some people think Boa Constrictors make great pets untill they wrap themselves around them or their children. The Christian falls prey to money not because they dream of being famous, driving luxury cars, and sporting big houses...the well intentioned Christian is decieved and captured the moment they think money is vital to building God's kingdom...for building churches, ''ministries' and other 'spiritual' things.

All that is needed to build God's kingdom is truth. I know I'm speaking to the choir here...but this simple point is so often buried under a million so-called deeper secrets in the church these days. There are many ministries who have everything money can buy except this one heavenly commodity: truth. Truth in speaking and truth in right living. This is the difference between the power of Godliness and the mere form of it.

Who am I to say these things? Sadly I'm a culprit. In fact I may be the worst here...learn from my mistakes bro. Do we think we are immune just because we scoff at the Word of Faith and vulgar prosperity preachers who seem to want money only to buy the things of the world, while we want to use money for heavenly things? On the contrary, perhaps we who have spiritual plans for the money we tarry and live for are even more at risk because our misguided hope is stealthier...more 'spiritual.' So let's stop dreaming about how money is going to do great things for God...For such dreams many prophets and preachers carve and sell away a little piece at a time the truth God has entrusted them with in order to 'advance' God's kingdom. This is worldly wisdom running the church...we step by step lose confiidence in the power of Godliness, while being convinced of the power of money, all so we can dutifully project a form of Godliness. (We call that 'reaching' people....)

Money has always promised to advance God's kingdom! And yet look at where we are today. Though they had their sins, our ancestors remnant were still a more Godly people 150 years ago. What has our technocratic Babylon and it's money done for us who were once more Godly? It's bargain has corrupted our heavenly hopes, atrophied our faith, cooled our love, and dimmed our eternal vision.

The good news is that our sermons, and our worship music has never been selling better.

I know you feel the same way bro...just laying these things out in the public forum for all of us. You certainly have a stronger sense of God's calling then I ever remember having at your age. Even so I encourage you...resist selling the truths you've learned in God though the world bargains hard with all it's safety and security. This is our deepest faith in God, the kind of faith you have been calling people to have. Be careful not to dilute that message with other kinds of faith. If the system ever does collapse, it won't be your ability to hand out sandwiches that will attract and help people...but that you know your God.

Blessings,

MC

Ironman,

I will do my best to address your questions. I ask your forgiveness for being a bit harsh in other posts. The truth of what I am saying seems to me to be as obvious as the nose on my face, therefore I find myself a bit impatient and ungraceous toward you. For this I apologize. Still I honestly can't figure out why you don't see it.

Please allow me to explain as well as I can.

Back in the mid eighties I read a few books that dealt with what is termed the "New Age". This is a religion of sorts that believes that mankind has unlimited potential and can find a higher self. Shirley McClane is perhaps the most visible believer in this 'religion'. She claims to have had this sudden revelation that she was herself a god.

In the books exposing this New Ageism, the authors brought to light one of the practices used by these New Age practitioners. It is the very same practice of looking within your own imagination to discover 'imaginary' spirit guides who will then lead you to the truth within yourself. This is the pathway to SELF realization. This same practice was then traced back to early occultic practices by shamans. To the best of my recollection these were a sort of witch doctor. I no longer have these books so I can't give you a great deal more information about the when where and who regarding these shamans.

Let me ask you a question. Can you find anywhere in scripture that indicates that we should seek understanding or special revelation from angels? The scripture states quite plainly that the Holy Spirit was given to us and HE will teach us.

I beg you as lovingly as I can to pray earnestly for discernment. I remember a similar problem you were having discerning the errors in word of faith teaching. Many things can look good but aren't. Scripture points out that the devil will disguise himself as an angel of light in order to deceive. It follows then that we really must be very careful to sift everything through the word of God.

You had a question regarding fixing a goal in your mind and focusing on that goal until it has been attained. Can you support this practice with scripture? Does not the scripture tell us to focus on things above. Should our focus not be on Jesus? Seek first the kingdom of God. Seeking wealth, no matter how honest the intention is not God's way. Can you not see that perhaps you are being subtly seduced to travel down a misguided road?

Let me close with a quote from Napoleon Hill. "I will induce others to serve me because of my willingness to serve others."

in·duce 1. to lead or move by persuasion or influence, as to some action or state of mind: to induce a person to buy a raffle ticket.

The willingness to serve others half of this statement makes it seem godly. We're supposed to serve right? But what part of inducing someone to do anything falls under godly behavior? What part of getting someone to serve you is godly behavior?

My dear brother, I beg of you to come to your senses. Napoleon Hill wrote Think and Grow Rich in large part from revelations, not from the word of God or the Holy Spirit, or even from scripture, but from 'imaginary' spirit guides. Angels are not in the business of imparting special revelation to anyone. What is left? Either we believe that this stuff simply came from deep within his own self or we conclude that these were 'angels of light' deceiving him.

I pray that you hear my heart in this.

In His Love,

Doug

bro MC
i bless God for you bro because in some ways through you He reveals to me how i feel sometimes. this is the beauty of fellowship at work again.

riding 2 horses? now that would be feat! :-P

Of course I agree with this in theory. Then again theorectically it isn't sex or political power that corrupts the soul either. Like they say, "guns don't kill people, people kill people."

i guess these things amplify what is already there. a gun can kill people, though someone needs to be there to pull the trigger.

Yet, there is something missing in this detached perspective. Money does indeed amplify the heart...but I am also concluding that too much of it weakens the heart.

and you bring up a good point here also because of the danger of leaning to much on it and less and less on God. We ought to remain on guard.

These days we have plenty of self-sufficient saints, always looking inward for their guidance to an inner voice. Self-sufficiency is regarded as strength to the world, but I find in Christ it is weakness. Money only enables this myopy further.

True, very true hence we should ever be on guard lest we lean on anything else outside of God. you said it right here:

Now we are talking not so much about paper engravings of the Presidents, or long digital positive numbers smiling back at you when you visit your online bank...we are talking about a system that provides all of your needs and even a few fantasies in a way that replaces God.

which is in short the design of the enemy's system in this world to distract us from Him by any means necessary.

I was out with my family this weekend at a shopping mall. How wildly sensual, violent, and yet luxurious and civilized our 'babylon' is! The voice of God is very squelched in our world...not just because of money but because of the whole pagan penumbra that not only blots out the Son, (even in most churches) but also lovingly provides for your every need---as long as you serve it faithfully. It will provide insurance for your children, cures for your deseases, a roof over your head, let you sleep safe and sound at night next to a beautiful spouse, fill your belly with whatever suits you, and your mind with amusement, and it will even give you a deep sense of purpose and identity. Well looky there... it will even build you a fine church facility.

whoa, isn't the enemy slick, pandering to our senses to keep us stimulated and then lead us off track.

This is the scenareo of living in Bablyon I would paint to anyone who thinks God has called them to make money for Him. Be careful brothers! Some people think Boa Constrictors make great pets untill they wrap themselves around them or their children. The Christian falls prey to money not because they dream of being famous, driving luxury cars, and sporting big houses...the well intentioned Christian is decieved and captured the moment they think money is vital to building God's kingdom...for building churches, ''ministries' and other 'spiritual' things.

someone said we are not tempted with the vile things but the most noble. indeed we ought to be wary that we stay true to whatever it is God has called us lest we do anything which seems good enough but is outside of what we are called to do. is money needed to get by here, sure but when Christ came He didn't come with that, He came in the Name of the Father and by His Spirit. perhaps in some areas we have replaced this Spirit with other things?

Who am I to say these things? Sadly I'm a culprit. In fact I may be the worst here...learn from my mistakes bro. Do we think we are immune just because we scoff at the Word of Faith and vulgar prosperity preachers who seem to want money only to buy the things of the world, while we want to use money for heavenly things? On the contrary, perhaps we who have spiritual plans for the money we tarry and live for are even more at risk because our misguided hope is stealthier...more 'spiritual.' So let's stop dreaming about how money is going to do great things for God...For such dreams many prophets and preachers carve and sell away a little piece at a time the truth God has entrusted them with in order to 'advance' God's kingdom. This is worldly wisdom running the church...we step by step lose confiidence in the power of Godliness, while being convinced of the power of money, all so we can dutifully project a form of Godliness. (We call that 'reaching' people....)

i guess these are the more noble things which we can be tempted by. indeed we agree and acknowledge that there are those who are called to such.

Money has always promised to advance God's kingdom! And yet look at where we are today. Though they had their sins, our ancestors remnant were still a more Godly people 150 years ago. What has our technocratic Babylon and it's money done for us who were once more Godly? It's bargain has corrupted our heavenly hopes, atrophied our faith, cooled our love, and dimmed our eternal vision.

can you say LAODICEA?!

I know you feel the same way bro...just laying these things out in the public forum for all of us. You certainly have a stronger sense of God's calling then I ever remember having at your age. Even so I encourage you...resist selling the truths you've learned in God though the world bargains hard with all it's safety and security. This is our deepest faith in God, the kind of faith you have been calling people to have. Be careful not to dilute that message with other kinds of faith. If the system ever does collapse, it won't be your ability to hand out sandwiches that will attract and help people...but that you know your God.

thank you bro. like i said, i bless God for this fellowship because i have learned much here. indeed we share the same sentiments on this and on the issue of the truth of God. i bless God that in the face of opposition, more and more He is giving me grace enough to compromise the truth, less and less. it's not easy for the flesh but we have grace enough for all things through Him. indeed i bless God for knowing me and bringing me to knowing Him. at first when God called me to the ministry, i didn't have a vision for financial provision. i've realized that God does minister to physical needs and has called some to that. i bless God though that He dealt with me such that i feel a greater urgency toward eternity (which is the issue with infinately more weight) which affects how i have come to view this ministry of provision. the idea is not so much to provide for people (that's a byproduct) but to point people toward God. providing for people (giving a sandwich as you said, i like that analogy) is one way, but the evidence of God being present in one's life is a much more powerful way to draw people into Him. i'm reminded of the multitudes who followed Christ while He did miracles, there were nowhere to be found after He said "eat my flesh and drink my blood" they all vanished. contrast them with the disciples for came to Christ before He did anything and were there even after the multitudes left. The presence of the Spirit of God through Christ locked them into following Him until they died, the legacy of which we see today. now it's our turn.

God bless you bro Mike

bro Doug

I will do my best to address your questions. I ask your forgiveness for being a bit harsh in other posts. The truth of what I am saying seems to me to be as obvious as the nose on my face, therefore I find myself a bit impatient and ungraceous toward you. For this I apologize. Still I honestly can't figure out why you don't see it.

i appreciate the apology, there was no offense taken because i know you were not looking to do harm. i see your concern and it is much appreciated.

Back in the mid eighties I read a few books that dealt with what is termed the "New Age". This is a religion of sorts that believes that mankind has unlimited potential and can find a higher self. Shirley McClane is perhaps the most visible believer in this 'religion'. She claims to have had this sudden revelation that she was herself a god.

i'm not very familiar with what new ageism is except to say it is weird, more than that it is demonic no doubt. mankind has oft sought ways to elevate itself, we are rather vain creatures and the enemy always plays on this in one form or another.

In the books exposing this New Ageism, the authors brought to light one of the practices used by these New Age practitioners. It is the very same practice of looking within your own imagination to discover 'imaginary' spirit guides who will then lead you to the truth within yourself. This is the pathway to SELF realization. This same practice was then traced back to early occultic practices by shamans. To the best of my recollection these were a sort of witch doctor. I no longer have these books so I can't give you a great deal more information about the when where and who regarding these shamans.

yes indeed and we know that this is of the enemy because it points away from God. in the enemy's desperation, he has gotten some to worship anything and everything as God except God Himself.

Let me ask you a question. Can you find anywhere in scripture that indicates that we should seek understanding or special revelation from angels? The scripture states quite plainly that the Holy Spirit was given to us and HE will teach us.

of course there is nowhere where we are told to seek revelation from angels, God forbid! however in our seeking of Him is He not free to use these agents to that end? Did John not receive the Revelation from an angel sent by God? was Daniel not visited by Gabriel when He sought God about the dreams he had been having? it is one thing to seek after angels but it is another entirely for God to send them and He still does.

I beg you as lovingly as I can to pray earnestly for discernment. I remember a similar problem you were having discerning the errors in word of faith teaching. Many things can look good but aren't. Scripture points out that the devil will disguise himself as an angel of light in order to deceive. It follows then that we really must be very careful to sift everything through the word of God.

bro, like i said in reference to the word of faith movement, sure they have some things wrong. there are principles which have been misapplied or straight up been perverted but if we look at them through the word, they are put into proper context for proper use. this seems to be something that i can't seem to get across, i'm not just running with the wof principles without questioning them, but i see some (not all by the way) as being properly valid when applied in proper context. for example, Peter told that begger by the temple "in the name of Jesus get up" and he did. all his life that man was a cripple and peter spoke to him as though he wasn't. name it and claim it seems to be applied to stuff that we want but Peter named this and claimed it (i see this as being the very same principle) and it was done, but this was under unction. bro i seek always for our Lord to show me whatever it is He needs to, by whatever means necessary and so He does without leading me into trouble.

You had a question regarding fixing a goal in your mind and focusing on that goal until it has been attained. Can you support this practice with scripture? Does not the scripture tell us to focus on things above. Should our focus not be on Jesus? Seek first the kingdom of God. Seeking wealth, no matter how honest the intention is not God's way. Can you not see that perhaps you are being subtly seduced to travel down a misguided road?

yes we are to focus on Christ always, however if one has been given a vision/goal from on High, how is focusing on that (assuming it is done properly that is) any different from focusing on He who gave the vision/goal?i understand your concern but also you need to know that this focus (as i see it in it's true context) on a goal is to focus on the one who gave the goal in the first place.ok now on seeking the kingdom of God, does this not also mean seeking what God has called us to do? or is the work for which we shall be rewarded in heaven a separate thing. if God has said to you, go evangelize in Russia, and He calls me to fast and pray for a year, are we not both doing the work of the kingdom? there are those who have been called to a work of stewardship and so that does require money in some cases. if our Lord doesn't say that He will let it rain from heaven (which He could if it suited His purpose) then it means doing whatever it is He says do. God provides for us in the physical and as long as He does, money will have some role to play. now can money corrupt? sure and so we are to always be on guard. one can even become corrupt and puffed up at seeing God do mighty things through Him, so we ought always to be on guard of pride whether we seek revelation from God, power or anything else.

just as surely as the enemy can come and make a lie seem like truth, the enemy can also make the truth seem like a lie.

Let me close with a quote from Napoleon Hill. "I will induce others to serve me because of my willingness to serve others."

ok, how else would you get anyone to serve you except to serve them first? isn't that what Christ did, He served us before we could serve Him so that we could be drawn into serving Him. i don't think that what he said should be seen as some sort of manipulation into serving him for his own selfish gain. if you want someone's help, don't you find a way to help them first? that's the best way.i see this inducing more like wooing. God woos us does He not? He draws us into Himself by meeting us where we are and tending to us.

The willingness to serve others half of this statement makes it seem godly. We're supposed to serve right? But what part of inducing someone to do anything falls under godly behavior? What part of getting someone to serve you is godly behavior?

like i said i don't think this is about hustling anyone into anything but really about serving others as being the example of how to behave and what will happen in response. if you serve someone, will someone not serve you?if you don't serve, who do you expect to serve you?

My dear brother, I beg of you to come to your senses. Napoleon Hill wrote Think and Grow Rich in large part from revelations, not from the word of God or the Holy Spirit, or even from scripture, but from 'imaginary' spirit guides. Angels are not in the business of imparting special revelation to anyone. What is left? Either we believe that this stuff simply came from deep within his own self or we conclude that these were 'angels of light' deceiving him.

so what about John? Daniel? Abraham? did they not receive revelation from angels? who gave JOhn the revelation? who explained to Daniel the meaning of what he had seen and dreamed? and was Abraham not warned by an angel of the impending doom of sodom and gomorrah? Are angels not ministering Spirits? is not part of their ministry to reveal the things of God when and how He sees fit?

or perhaps you don't see this? at any rate, this is nothing to break fellowhip over. my conscience is clear, i'm not involved in anything shady, simply doing what i know God has called me to and instructed me to do. i know you are doing the same.

God bless you bro

There is a key difference between angels giving revelation, or more accurately, being a messenger, and closing your eyes and summoning imaginary guides in the hoping they are angels. You seem bound and determined to be deluded. Go ahead!

bro Doug

John173 wrote:
There is a key difference between angels giving revelation, or more accurately, being a messenger, and closing your eyes and summoning imaginary guides in the hoping they are angels. You seem bound and determined to be deluded. Go ahead!

ahh but i certainly don't practise that at all so there is no delusion there. if in fact such was practised by Napoleon hill, i have no part in that in anywise! i told you, i'm not buying into everything he said in the context of vileness from the enemy as you see it, but in the context of our Lord's truth. just as surely as the enemy can present the lie as the truth, he can also smear the truth and make it look as though it were a lie. there is truth in some places where it would seem there could be none. the baptists have some things right (for example, not baptist-bashing here) and others wrong but we dont discount them altogether do we? no, we dig and mine for what is indeed of God and hold onto it.

i'm not reading this book through my own eyes but filtering it through God. i do this with all things but somehow that always gets missed. anyhow this is not something i would break fellowship over and i hope you wouldn't either. God's will be done and whatever things which need loosing be loosed and whatever needs binding be bound. AMEN.

Hey ironman,

No, it's not worth breaking fellowship over. I'm of the mind that if something were written by someone under direct inspiration from demons I wouldn't be attempting to find truth in it period, filtered through the word or not. I am of the strongest conviction that is the case with the book in question. I also believe that if I knew the bible inside and out I could show you in the word that doing so isn't appropriate. I don't and can't so take that thought for what it's worth.

In Him,

Doug

bro Doug
very well

edit

hey by the way bro, i will be on the lookout for anything shady and will bring it up for discussion. i've not gone far in the book so i will let you know what i find

One of the demons pipes up. "I saw some of my own doing a study, they took a single frame of one of their movies and replaced it with a picture of ice cold cola and a box of candy. At intermission the concession sales nearly doubled. It got me to thinking. What if we began to bombard the human race with subconcious images that will cause them to desire sin even more than they do now?

[url=http://www.snopes.com/business/hidden/popcorn.asp]http://www.snopes.com/business/hidden/popcorn.asp[/url]

I am in full agreement that Christians need to use discernment though. I am thinking about getting rid of my TV and Internet connection. The devil doesn't need subliminal messages. There is plenty of filth in plain view!

Carter Conlan sounds very good, though never heard of him before! Will folloow up that site...

Jeannette,

Carter Conlon is the senior pastor of Times Square Church. Many of his sermons are available here for download. You can also get them from the Times Square Church website.

Amen Brother, I had just finished reading this book less than a month ago. The methods Mr. Hill, use's is the same as NLP,( Nuro lingustics programming) Pardon my spelling if it is wrong.
or more commonly known as if you can dream it, you can acheive it.
I was first introduced to this kind of thinking when my wife Helen and I was in Amway, back in the late 80's.
Know I see this same teaching in the word of faith movement especially with Kenneth Copeland ministries and those ministries that are associated with them. A lot of this teaching is starting to pop up in local assemblies ( Churches)
in my area.
The prime reason I believe, this teaching is being accepted by churches and pastors teachers ect. is that we do not study our bibles anymore.
We listen to the preachers and teachers and believe what they are teaching at face value, instead of exploring the scripture and what they say in regards to there taching.
Every one wants to hear what will tickle there ears, instead of what our message should be and that is the Cross of Christ and him crusified.
PRAYER: May God help us witness to those that are decieved. anoint our words 'oh Lord of host, and lift the veil from those whom do not believe that the light of glorious gospel of Christ will be reveal to those that are lost.

Wow, a reply to my original post on this thread!

I dropped the ball on this and never finished explaining the reason behind bringing this up. Earlier I mentioned that this is an exposé about the methods our adversary is using today to deceve people and/or keep people from coming to Jesus Christ. Within the church these same methods are designed to prevent the body, as much as possible, from becoming effective witnesses to the gospel.

I began this discussion by talking about Hill's book (Think and Grow Rich)in order to show how big business is actively pursuing demonic influences for their success.

I followed up on this by discussing the use in advertising of a technique called subliminal advertising. I made mention of an urban legend having to do with popcorn spliced into a movie. Another brother on this thread debunked that legend. What cannot be debunked is the use of the word sex in the print media. I have seen this thousands of times with my own eyes.

The statement was made in the debunking post that this subliminal stuff doesn't work. It doesn't matter whether it works to sell any particular product, it is still there. The devil could care less about selling a product. What he is after is infecting an entire society with a preoccupation with sex. It seems to me that he has been extremely successful in this endeavor. Today's world is [i]obsessed[/i] with sexuality, and this includes the majority of Chrstians.

The next step in understanding this subversive attack on the underpinnings of our collective societal mentality is to observe that the technique used in advertising has changed. The campaign to alter society to become obsessed with sex has been so succesful that the subliminal is no longer needed. Now, the subliminal images in place today are human faces. This feeds two things in the subconcious mind. The first is pride. It gets into our heads that we are constantly being observed. One aspect of pride is the desire to be envied. In the context of advertising we begin to believe that we will be envied if we have a lot of really nice stuff. 'Hot' cars, fancy houses, the latest styles, whatever. The net result of this method is that we have become exceedingly materialistic and narcisistic. A study was recently done that concluded that todays college kids are the most narcisistic in history. The devil's methods are succeeding once again.

The second way this subliminal onslaught impacts society at large is in the area of insecurity. The inner processes of the mind translate being watched into a sense of being judged. This in turn becomes a fear of not living up to others expectations. AKA a deep inner insecurity. In turn, insecurity within drives us to become more and more shallow in our interpersonal relationships. It is at this level that this stratagem has the greatest impact on the church. On the one hand, our own insecurity becomes a blockade to fully trusting God. Secondly, we fear the judgement of man and are afraid to witness lest our own lives are examined and found lacking. Lastly, relationships within the body don't flourish because of these self same fears of judgement and rejection.

In closing, one of the main things we need to be aware of is that a great many people who walk into our churches have a very high degree of this insecurity in their life. This creates a great deal of struggle in trying to draw near to God. When these people continue to struggle for longer than we think they should, our response is often to judge them and subtly reject them. This is counter pruductive!

Jesus Christ is full of [i]grace[/i]. We all know the second half of the verse- truth, but in todays world it is imperative that we become Christ like by not only being full of truth, but full of grace.

In His Love,

Doug

I haven't read this book but, on what you tell me about its content and author, I hope you don't mind, but I don't think I'll bother.

Thanks,

Kerry.