"replacement theology"

I was watching Dr. Michael Brown speak on this:

[url=http://www.jewishvoice.org/TV/ram/tv865_56K.rm.ram]Dr Michael Brown on Replacement theology[/url]

Excellent!
Thanks for sharing this.

you asked

Have you encountered this theology personally?

yes, right here on this forum.

If so, how did you deal with it?

regard the person who wrote it as wrong, wrong-headed, wrong-hearted, and missing the mark entirely on what God has to say about the Jews.

And what is the Jew's excuse?

none, except as Paul wrote 'a hardeneding of the heart until the full number of the Gentiles are brought in'. But the "church" hasnt helped display the Love of Jesus, here's an article I found while looking up the 14 year old pregnant article you posted.

"Virginia Principal: Students' Jesus Chants Are Anti-Semitic
Saturday , February 24, 2007

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. —

A Catholic school principal has organized sensitivity training for students who shouted "We love Jesus" during a basketball game against a school with Jewish students.

The word "Jew" also was painted on a gym wall behind the seats of Bishop Sullivan Catholic High School students attending the Feb. 2 game at Norfolk Academy, said Dennis W. Price, principal of the Virginia Beach school.

Price who also watched the game, said the rivals exchanged chants, "Then, at some point, our students were chanting, 'We love Jesus."'

"It was obviously in reference to the Jewish population of Norfolk Academy; that's the only way you can take that," he added.

Price said he sent a letter of apology to Norfolk. Dennis G. Manning, the academy's headmaster, declined to comment.

Several Sullivan students met with Norfolk Academy's cultural diversity club Thursday as part of a series of events aimed at promoting tolerance, Price said.

He has arranged for the Virginia Conference for Community and Justice and the United Jewish Federation of Tidewater to work with students.

A message left for the United Jewish Federation of Tidewater was not immediately returned Saturday.

Price also has consulted the Anti-Defamation League, a national group that fights anti-Semitism.

"It is important that we work harder at having students leaving here who are tolerant and understand how serious these kinds of things are," said Price, who said diversity training will be incorporated permanently at Sullivan.

connect the dots, look into your heart, do you wish to see "gay" people saved by Grace?...then I ask you this, what do think they would feel if they saw you refer them in your previous post as "homos"?

Does that reflect the Love of Messiah?

I'm glad enjoyed the video, after my mentor, my pastor and an elder laid hands on me and prayed, the third person to lay hands on me and pray was Dr. Michael Brown.

I write all above in Jesus love, neil

Hi Neil,

I've watched the clip of Dr Brown, and I hear the definition he gives for 'replacement theology' is the notion that Jews can and should be excluded from the Church because they have no further place in the economy of God.

Is this the 'replacement theology' you are objecting to?

I would too, but I'll wait for your answer.

Meanwhile, here is the context of the verse he quotes in Matthew 23. I've taken it from v 25, in the YLT, to do justice to both nouns and verbs.

[color=006699]`Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye make clean the outside of the cup and the plate, and within they are full of rapine and incontinence.

Blind Pharisee! cleanse first the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside of them also may become clean.

Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye are like to whitewashed sepulchres, which outwardly indeed do appear beautiful, and within are full of bones of dead men, and of all uncleanness; so also ye outwardly indeed do appear to men righteous, and within ye are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the tombs of the righteous, and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

So that ye testify to yourselves, that ye are sons of them who did murder the prophets; and ye -- ye fill up the measure of your fathers.

Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Because of this, lo, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes, and of them ye will kill and crucify, and of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and will pursue from city to city; that on you may come all the righteous blood being poured out on the earth from the blood of Abel the righteous, unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar: verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will. Lo, left desolate to you is your house; for I say to you, ye may not see me henceforth, till ye may say, [b]Blessed he who is coming in the name of the Lord.[/b]'[/color]

(I;m smiling while I write this btw)

No Christian has hurt me, not at all. True, I am wary of some in the lower case c "church" in regards towards the Jews, and do regard "replacement theology" as theological spew, at best, demonic, at its worst.

Dr Michael Brown is much more adept at refuting this foul spew than I am, thats why I posted it.

and much love to you for wanting to "hide me out", don't worry. Remember where Jesus told the disciples to sell their cloaks and buy a sword?

The Lord wasn't talking in metaphor, true that Peter, as was his wont, got a lil enthusiastic by proclaiming that he was going to buy two, to which Jesus replied, "thats enough". That bit of Scripture always makes me laugh.

The Lord wasnt talking in metaphor, and he was talking to fellow Israelites who were His followers, so........

When I was a child in Hebrew school, I remember reading everything I could get my hands about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. As part of our Hebrew school and Torah study, we always learned in detail about the Holocaust. Not to keep us in fear, or to make us bitter, but the term,"Never Forget" was the linchpin behind this study, because at that same time, the Six Day War of 1967 had just been fought and Jerusalem reclaimed by Israel. The Six Day War was a massive Israeli pre-emptive strike against the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria nd Lebanon, after years of these nations and the Arab league baying for the blood and the destruction of Israel.

In that corner of the world, Israel takes arab threats seriously, much like the situation today with Iran. Iran has threatened that they will wipe the "zionist entity" from the map "with fire". Israel gave them one warning several months ago to cease their quest for nuclear weaponry, they ignored this warning, and you will see how this situation will play out.

buy a 4 cylinder car dear sister, you're going to be paying 6 to 7 dollars for a gallon of gas after Israel denudes Iran's nuclear ambitions.

here's the wikipedia entry on the Warsaw Ghetto uprising:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_ghetto_uprising

God bless you for worrying about me, we aint gonna be hiding. Israel's policy is that ANY Jew ANYWHERE in the world can claim Israeli citizenship at anytime.

Wrapped in Jesus, neil

bartle said

Israel's policy is that ANY Jew ANYWHERE in the world can claim Israeli citizenship at anytime.

I am not able to view the video. I do not have the right player on my computer.

I do not believe in "replacement" Theology, but I do believe in "Fulfillment" Theology. In that:

Jesus Christ, being a Jewish man, is the "True" Israel.

He is the Servant of the Lord.
He is the Seed of Abraham.
He is the Son of David.
He is The Seed of the Woman
He is the true Promised Land, and our inheritance.
He is the true Temple of the Lord.
He is the true Sacrifice
He is the true High Priest
He is the Passover Lamb
He is the Sabbath
Etc.

The Substance has come. The types and shadows have been done away with.

Why would God go back to the types and shadows of an actual temple and animal sacrifice, when their whole purpose was to point to the True Temple, and the True Sacrifice? Isn't that what the Book of Hebrews is talking about? In fact Hebrews chapter 10 condemns anyone that would leave the True and Final Sacrifice of God's Son, and go back to the types and the shadows of Old Covenant.

Has God forsaken Israel? Absolutely not! Look at the Apostle Paul, he is in Christ. He has received the Promise God gave to Abraham. Look Dr. Michael Brown, he is in Christ. He has received the Promise God gave to Abraham.

The True Land. The True Promised Land....is Christ! God has fulfilled His Covenant Promises. He cannot lie. Any Jewish man or woman who is in Christ has received the fulfillment of that Promise!

I hate to sound like a broken record... but the Word of Faith Movement borrows a lot from "replacement theology". While they do not adhere to "replacement theology" persay, the WOF'ers do claim the promises God made to Israel, and believe that those promises are for the Christian.

They are not. Some of the principles apply to us (honor your parents so that your days may be many, etc). But the promises made in the Law were made to the Jew. Not Christians.

This is the root of the "health & wealth" crowd. Without borrowing this from "replacement theology", the whole health & wealth doctrine would fall to pieces... as it should.

Krispy

Ian... give me some time to review this, and I'll comment at a later time, ok?

Krispy

this will probably be the second to last post I make for a while, I explain that in my next post in the ATF thread, but you asked:

but, just why would you want to be in Israel for a war?

I didnt say I would want to be, its just that if America someday goes the way of Germany circa 1923-1933, a Jew has a homeland to return to, rather than be rounded up and slaughtered like sheep.

and secondly, if it ever came to that, given my background in military intelligence and analysis, I might have something to offer.

But as far as going overseas is concerned I find myself drawn to either Korea or Rwanda.(most probably Korea, North Korea, when the pharoah is gone) The Lord has not yet given me release on this yet.

love, neil

Re Sister Dorcas

Neil,

Thank you. I now see what you are getting at. You know, I have terrible trouble understanding the level of anti-semetism which your perceive, as it really is foreign to my experience, apart from what happened in Nigeria when I was a teen, when one tribe was singled out for extinction.

The genocide in Biafra happened when my father was out there, with the war front crossing back and forward over the part where he worked - British bombs being dropped on his red cross-marked hospital buildings. I had the privilege to meet a young woman years afterward in the UK, who'd been one of those surgical patients, whose aunt, the anaesthetic nurse (as it happened), had stayed to give her oxygen while she was unconscious till a raid was over. Sometimes the staff had no choice but to leave the hospital to the enemy, as it advanced again. Over one period of weeks, 30,000 people a day were dying of starvation, despite the involvement of very able aid agencies. It was because of the mis-reporting of all this, that Fredrick Forsyth (whose news reports were being thrown in the bin), gave up journalism and became a novelist.

Also, many years ago in this country, I met a shining Christian nurse, who was North Korean but married to a Brit. She tried to explain to me what it was like at home, but this has begun to make sense only since coming to SI. Amazing how such an incident (one meeting) should have made such an impression on me, and I can still remember her face and smile, while many many other 'one meeting's have completely faded from memory. So, regarding the call you feel to Rwanda, or North Korea, I think I understand.

You know, you have a Korean couple leading one of the Salvation Army corps in Chicago.... maybe not to far for you to slip along and meet them? 8-)

Isn't it awesome that Diane has such a testimony of her family giving their lives to help Jews during WW2? I do hope you may acknowledge this when you have time to post, next. :-D Linn

bartle wrote:
I was watching Dr. Michael Brown speak on this:

[url=http://www.jewishvoice.org/TV/ram/tv865_56K.rm.ram]Dr Michael Brown on Replacement theology[/url]

Hi everyone

I wasn't able to play this, so don't know what Dr Brown said.

However, I'm a little confused with this discussion. What some of you seem to be talking about isn't what I thought was the main problem with Replacement "Theology.

To me there are two main aspects to "Replacement Theology":

1. The concept that "in Christ there is no Jew or Greek...but we are all one in Christ Jesus"

2. The idea that God has totally "finished with", and has no more purpose for, the Jews and the nation of Israel "after the flesh" on the world stage.

I can understand the first, and basically agree with it. That "they are not all Israel which are of Israel" has, I think, been quoted. Also the concept of the faithful remnant, and the "Israel of God - Jew and Gentile together - one in Christ. The foundations of the City in Revelation are both the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles... One City, one people in Christ.

However, I do [i][b]not[/b][/i]believe that God has finished with the present day Jewish nation and people. As Paul said, they are "beloved for the fathers' sakes. And I believe they are still beloved - even those who reject their own Messiah, and will in the end be lost.

The Jews, (including the unbelieving ones)and especially the nation of Israel, are still the Lord's "witnesses" in this present age - whether they like it or not!

Why else does the antichrist spirit in the world continually stir up hatred and attempt to destroy them? Hitler wasn't the first and definitely not the last. Anti Semitism is if anything on the increase. The nation is threatened on every side; many Muslims - even if they don't support terrorism - want to see Israel wiped off the face of the map.

Why,if God has no more purpose for her in the earth?

Yours in Him

Jeannette

philologos said

The Old Covenant with all its promises [b]and curses[/b] now stands null and void.

'...now stands null and void.' This is a new thought. I like it.

indeed.

"Acknowledge and take to heart this day, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other. Keep His decrees and commandments which I am giving you today, so that it may go well with you and your children after you and that you may live long in the land that the LORD your God gives you for all time."

Deuteronomy 4:39-40 (yes..NIV)

[b]......"for all time".[/b]

"For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be His people, His treasured possession."

Deuteronomy 7:6 (yes again, NIV)

then we come to Chapter 13 of Deuteronomy or dare I call this book "elleh haddebarrim", which means in Hebrew "These are the words". and Chapter 13 spells out what must happen to the false prophet, which is how the Pharisees viewed Jesus and crucified Him [b]for your sake.[/b]

But then Gamaliel (in Acts)saw thru the mist, saw the Sovereign Nature of God and told the Sanhedrin and Pharisees, and all others who wanted to persecute the embryonic early Church, that if these people are phonies and false, they will die out on their own, but if this is of God, and you fight against it, you will be futilely fighting against God. Thats where the Roman persecution began, and when satan saw that wasnt working, the enemy went to work on Constantine, and that Roman emperor decreed that "christianity" will now be the official imperial religion and the world was plunged into darkness.

God prophesied the Diaspora in Deuteronomy 28:63-68. I', tired, I need to nap before work, so I trust anyone can reference their Bible, but then in Deuteronomy 30:4-6, God said:

"Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you back to the land that belonged to your fathers and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul , and live".

Why is it so difficult to grasp the positioning of "ingrafted vine"? You who draw nourishment from the Vine?

How was it that a rag tag band of lightly armed Jews were able to not only roll back the British Empire but also horde upon horde of Arabs bent on their destruction? and this very day, why do you think it is that the foreign nation with the most NASDAQ listed companies is Israel?

there are no accidents in the Economy of God, is it no accident that at its height the British Empire lost millions of its sons in the senseless trench warfare of WW1, and hence denuded the imperial aspirations of the Empire?
accident?, miscalculation? or God's will?

who knows what will happen to America in the Persian Gulf, may God have mercy.

Is it an accident that from every war modern day Israel has fought since 1948, the "hornet" proceeded the Israeli Defense Forces and crushed numerically superior Arab armies?

Whether it be called "replacement" or "transpositional" theology, it's wrong, there's an arrogance, a haughtiness built in to such thinking, Paul warned Gentile believers about this theo-arrogance, and I wont quote it now, because I grow tired....so, believe what you must.

we all see thru a glass darkly, neil

I didnt mean to seem to be calling YOU arrogant.....no no no, not my meaning, but the way I see it, there is an inherent implication of superiority, of "trans....positioning" one's self in the Kingdom of Heaven in the theory of replacement theology, or transpositional theology.

what about this: if you worship a god, that can make irevocable Covenants, revocable, what makes you so sure, that He won't revoke the New Covenant and give it to the muslims?

But forgive me if it seemed as if the dialogue was personal, believe what you want, I just think you're wrong, in fact I know you're wrong, we do not worship a fork tongued god, and you as an ingrafted vine find nourishment in the same life giving Sap, and when the Church REALLY becomes what It was called to be, the Jewish people will be made envious of so great a salvation. But with 400 different denominations, many many apostate cults, the cult of mary at rome and a most unsavory history regarding the Jewish people, the lower case c "church will continue with its impotent witness to the Jewish people's, UNTIL the full number of Gentiles is brought in.

Besides, I just got done writing my ex-RM commando buddy, who THANK GOD, just got back safely from sheperding news crews around Bagdhad, and I want to bring Giuliano for holiday in the UK, the City, many he can witness the Royal Marines in training, a jaunt to Cardiff, a jaunt to the Hebrides, and then cap it off with a stay at my friends Inn in the Scottish Highlands.....why would I want to insult you?, I want to get inside your library so I can "borrow" some books. (laughing) So hide your missionary biographies when I come a calling. (teasing)

neil

To Philologos:

As usual, we disagree..........

Replacement Theology teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel, and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in Israel.

So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are "spiritualized" or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the Church. [b][color=CC0000]Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries, and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people as a distinct people group (unheard of in History of any dispersed people group)over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?[/color][/b]

The view that Israel and the Church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. In this view, the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the Church is an entirely new creation, that came into being on the Day of Pentecost, and will continue until it is translated to Heaven at the Rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The Church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. [b][color=CC0000]Israel has been set aside in God's program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion.[/color][/b]

After the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), God will restore Israel to the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the Great Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. Now, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation will be saved and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with the capital as Jerusalem. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King - Jesus Christ. The Church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

[b][color=CC0000]Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a Premillennial / Dispensational understanding of God's plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest support for Premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says, six times, that Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the Tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth with Jerusalem as His capital, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The Church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel, and will one day restore Israel to His intended role for the nation He has chosen (Romans chapter 11).[/color][/b]

God bless,

Stever

P.S. I will answer your comments about the covenants made to Abraham by God in other posts.

philologos wrote:

I didnt mean to seem to be calling YOU arrogant.....no no no, not my meaning, but the way I see it, there is an inherent implication of superiority, of "trans....positioning" one's self in the Kingdom of Heaven in the theory of replacement theology, or transpositional theology.

Personally I feel no sense of superiority to anyone.. Jew, Muslim, Wordling.

Your "I know you are wrong" just sets your witness against mine. .....................

Philologos posted:

The church of Jesus Christ is now 'the people of God'

Stever’s response:

I agree with your statement above,at the present moment in history. However if you are saying that God is finished with the Jews as a race, as a specific people, and as a specific Nation, then I have to disagree with you. God has caused blindness to come upon the Jews, but He is surely not through with them by any means.

Were the people that believed God and in His promise of the Messiah to come (“the seed of the woman”) that lived before the cross saved by their faith and belief in God?

The answer is yes.

Hebrews 9:15 in the KJV states:
15.And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:15 in the New living Bible gives us a better understanding:

15. That is why he is the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, so that all who are invited can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

Hebrews Chapter 12 tells us about the cloud of witnesses that watch us in the race. The names of some of the witnesses are listed in Chapter 11 and are all old Testament Saints, who believed God, and who had faith in God’s promise of the seed of the woman (Prophesized in Genesis 3:15). This faith, this saving faith is what saved them all. Some of the names listed are: Abel; Noah; Abraham; Sarah; Rahab, Gedeon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: etc. etc. etc.

When Christ ascended to Heaven, He took captivity captive with Him. He took all of the souls, that had died before the cross and had believed God, and had faith in God’s promise of the “Seed of the Woman”, who were residing in Abraham’s bosom to heaven with Him.

Psalms 68:18 gives us the Prophecy in the Old Testament of this event:
18.\tThou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

Ephesians 4:8-10 records the fulfillment of the above prophecy in the New Testament:
8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

We are told in the New Testament, after the Gospels, and after Christ’s ascension, that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”. This is revelation knowledge, provided to us by Paul (2 Cor 5:8).Now, after the Cross, when any believer dies, he/she goes directly to heaven, to be with the Lord. Before Christ’s final payment for sin, this was not possible, and hence the reference to Abrahams bosom (also known as Paradise) by Christ when He told the parable of the rich man and the poor man (Lazarus) in Luke 16:20-31).

Christ promised the thief on the cross who believed on Him---"today you will be with me in Paradise" (Abraham’s bosom).

Job, one of the oldest books in the Bible, gives us understanding of God’s promise to believers before the Cross—“ 25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27. Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me

When Christ came the first time He only read part of Isaiah 61, and then closed the Book. Out of the entire Chapter He read merely the first 1 ½ verses

" 1. The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2. To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord"

He left the following out, that refers to His Second Coming (Coming again, as found throughout the New Testament) and His 1,000 year reign on the earth:

, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3. To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.
4. And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5. And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6. But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7. For your shame ye shall have double (Double means forgiveness); and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. 8. For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. 9. And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the Lord hath blessed. 10. I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. 11. For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

[b][color=0000FF]I find this to be interesting Scripture that to me describes Christ's death and resurrection, and His return to the earth, to be spent with the Jews, for their promised 1000 year reign with Messiah:[/color][/b]

Hosea 5:14-15 & 6:1-2
5:14. For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
5:15. I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

6:1. Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
6:2.[i][b][color=0000FF] After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

One day is to the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day- this refers to prophetic time- Christ is away for two thousand years, and will return to the earth for 1,000 more—the “Millennial Kingdom” that has been promised to the Jews. After that we know from Scripture that He creates a New Heaven and a New Earth for all those that believe on Him-the Jews, the true vine, and the grafted on branch- the Gentile Church.[/color][/b][/i]

God bless,

Stever :-D

P.S It also says in Scripture that the "Saints" come with Christ at the second coming. All of the "Saints", that have believed God from the beginning, will come with Him in their new, glorified bodies (like Christ"s) to rule and reign with Him. The Jews that have come to belief in their Messiah during the Tribulation, and others that are not Jews, but have come to belief in Him as well, will enter into the thousand year reign in their bodies of flesh and blood. Christ will rule and reign with a "rod of iron" (Palms 2 & Revelation 2).

you wrote:

Your statement that we have 'institutional anti-semitism' is completely inaccurate

Ron, either you are in denial, or you are blind to history, or you just crept out of the British-Israelism camp and decided that the replacement theology/"transpositional theology was more acceptable theo-dwelling to creep into, in either case you are blind to the realities of the last 1600 years of history regrading the institutional anti-semitism that has been spearheaded and fostered by the lower case c "church", whether it be rome or any of the other apostate hell bound chucks of the Body of Christ

I talked at length with few other pastors i know and respect in regards to replacement theology and there take was twofold, its in error and it fosters a sense of superiority that some NEED to feel, and this is underlined by your last statement:

The church of Jesus Christ is now 'the people of God'.

Sit in your library and entertain this delusion, I'm sure its a comfortable, self-satisfying and self righteous place to perch, May God have mercy on you.

Bartle said:

talked at length with few other pastors i know and respect in regards to replacement theology and there take was twofold, its in error

When Jerusalem fell in 70AD the Temple was destroyed, the Jewish nation scattered into heathen nations a sword was drawn out after them, ever since that time the Jew have gone thru much trouble and anguish, why? Because they rejected their Messiah in the last days. God gave them 40 years to make up their minds to receive Christ, but they continued on offering abominations of sacrifices to God. And thus christ words came to pass:

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Consider:

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

There is no such a thing as Replacement Theology, if anything, the Jews replaced God for gods, and idols, "Yea, they have chosen their own ways".

I am NOT anti semitic, I am just putting the TIME of what you believe to be future bible prophecy in their prespective place, in the past.

Why can’t we examine what God DID – even those years following Pentecost, prior to 70 AD? Consider all those Jews who were added to the Kingdom!

I am not blind to this Diane. I can't include everything in a post, it would take up space and people may as well read a book.

I was responding to a post, it may look final, but there was a future for the Jews, as God drew them out of every country and yes, many were saved on the day of Pentecost, and many more afterwards.

It's an exhaustive work to go into such detail regarding this subject, it CAN'T be said in just a few words, precept must be upon precept, otherwise someone will come back with a question to try to trip you up if you don't have all the answers together.

It's like the world asking a baby Christian, "Ok, where did Cain get his wife"? It's not a question of interest, no one really wants to know. It's a question to trip you up, no one has an answer. We have theories, but none are present in the text.

It's like this subject, it can't be said in one breath. The reason why this is so, is because everyone is DEAD set in their belief that Israel is God's chosen people. So a lie told enough times becomes a truth. So you can't convince the hearers with just a word. Jesus had a hard time convincing His hearers in His day, why? because they had their own preconcieved ideas of how the Kingdom of God was going to come. He told them, it's not going to come by observation, your NOT going to see it, because it's within you., That was a foriegn teaching to them, they couldn't accept it.

The Church gets so caught up in teachings that it only takes a radical move of God to convince them otherwise.

Diane, can you see my heart in all this? I am not angry at you, I am angry at the devil.

Are the blessings of God so complicated that we are left to default to the more obvious

I was thinking about poor Jeremiah today how he spoke positive to the people, but they looked at it as negative. He told them in essense, "Go to Babylon and all will be ok, just don't go against the word of the LORD". Yet they continued to rebel (I am not talking about the Jew here, but us in general).

Negative is good. When I got the strap, though it was negative to me, it produced positive results.

But I do understand what your saying, it's the "harping" on the negative that is disturbing. I hope I am correct in feeling that from you?

I never got to know Neil(Bartle), but I don't like to see anyone go or be banned from a site.

You know what would be nice? a voice chat room. Wishful thinking, eh? :-)

Stever wrote

[b]When Christ ascended to Heaven, He took captivity captive with Him.[/b] He took all of the souls, that had died before the cross and had believed God, and had faith in God’s promise of the “Seed of the Woman”, who were residing in Abraham’s bosom to heaven with Him.

I have never heard this interpretation cobbled together from scripture.

What is more mystifying, or, revealing, is that you have quoted from the places where 'captivity' is mentioned in scripture - the psalm and Paul's quotation of it - and even Christ's own reading from Isaiah which He follows up with

Luke 4:21
And he began to say unto them,

"[u]This day[/u] is this scripture [u]fulfilled[/u] in your ears."

but, having presented something other right at the start of your post, any reader who knows the scripture less, might be beguiled into thinking you had just expounded a widely accepted truth.

This I contend, that you have, rather, [i]muddied[/i] the waters of understanding.

In simple English 'He took captivity captive' is a complete and finished sentence, which need have nothing added to it.

The verb is 'took captive'. The noun is 'captivity'.

What is 'captivity'. It is what you do to someone when you put them in prison, or keep them under house arrest, or what you do to an animal which is taken from its natural habitat in the wild, and made to live in a much smaller enclosure than it should have for its own health and survival. That's why you have to bring it food there... because it is not free to get its own. Same goes for prisoners.

Jesus has this to say about the behaviour of unclean spirits. Note how the person's life (body) is described as the dwelling place (house).

Matthew 12
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth [i]it[/i] empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: [b]and the last[/b] [i]state[/i] [b]of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation[/b].
46 While he yet talked to [u]the people[/u],

I've underlined 'people' to say this was to be common knowledge amongst His followers. Luke also quotes this wisdom Jesus has imparted.

So, when Jesus said (Isaiah 61)

'to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;'

this was the ministry upon which He was about to embark amongst the lost sheep of the house of Israel - deliverance to those held captive by evil spirits, sickness, mental illness, unhealed wounds (the list could go on to cover any outworking of sin in human life (Mark 2:5 - 10), the remedy for which is to [i][b]come to Him[/b][/i].

Mark 2:9
Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [i]Thy[/i] sins be forgiven thee; [u]or[/u] to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

There is a grand assumption in the gospel, that those who [u]believe God[/u], are healed (This is a spiritual truth - Heb 10:14) from their sin, their sicknesses and therefore, from being under His wrath when they are judged. But, how many people [u]really let go of the captivity in which they were bound[/u], despite giving mental and verbal assent to the truth of the gospel.

Is being freed an option only?

Or is it a fundamental command from God, without which one cannot really be counted as a sheep of the fold who is free to go out and in, and find pasture?

John 10:9
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Acts 17
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; [u]but now commandeth all men every where to repent[/u]:
31 [u]Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness[/u] by [i]that[/i] man whom he hath ordained; [i]whereof[/i] he hath given assurance unto all [i]men[/i], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

The promises of Isaiah 61 which Jesus began to read, are a single sentence until the end of v 3. I admire your nerve in putting a gap there, which you say will last 2000 years, but this is not at all in the spirit of the word of God.

Today is the day of salvation and still is.

Isaiah 61:8
... and I will make an everlasting covenant with them

was still in the future to Isaiah, but, it has happened by now.

Bearing in mind the picture Jesus gave of a person as a dwelling place, could just as easily be about people's lives, as about geographical places..... :-D

Isaiah 61:4
And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Stever said:

When Christ ascended to Heaven, He [b]took[/b] captivity captive with Him

Linn, just as a side bar regarding Stevers statement, it would probably be best to quote the actual verse as it doesn't say, "Took", but rather "led".

Compare the Old and the New:

Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Compliments said

Linn, just as a side bar regarding Stevers statement, it would probably be best to quote the actual verse as it doesn't say, "Took", but rather "led".

Your point - in bringing me back to the words of scripture itself - reminds me directly of something I noticed not long ago, of the Lord's attitude to Satan, during His tempations.

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, [u]Get thee behind me, Satan[/u]: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mark 8:33
But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, [u]Get thee behind me, Satan[/u]: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Luke 4:8
And Jesus answered and said unto him, [u]Get thee behind me, Satan[/u]: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

What I saw is, that Jesus was well aware and never faltered from the REAL order in Creation. He was [i]entirely[/i] clear about His authority over Satan, and had absolutely no intention of moving a muscle which would indicate a split-second of weakness or doubt of the reality of His being the Word made Flesh. He [Jesus] literally NEVER gave way to him [Satan].

This ties in completely with the victory He won on the cross, by which He could command 'captivity' to follow, and it simply had to obey.

I know there is a picture of the conquering army leading vanquished hosts in chains, which is also a historical reality. But the reality that Jesus LED captivity, is in far more absolute, because it is in the spiritual dimension. Not that we are not all spiritual. But the challenge for a man and woman who believe in Jesus Christ, is to live out that same sonship -as He demonstrated - without flinching.

The weapons of our warfare are ... MIGHTY... (2 Cor 10:4 - 6).

Aaron said:

while pointing to God's future restoration,

This subject and all subjects relating to the last days etc.. is not my number #1 choice. I would rather study the love of God and the joys of union in Christ. I've said many times to the LORD, "Why do you show me this, give this to someone else who has a mind for it, who loves talking about eshatology" I avoided the Revelations, don't like reading it, don't like talking about it. But here I am. The more I get into this though, the more I see Jesus high and lifted up, and I guess that is a good incentive to studying this.

I am very much into "time" statements and "wording" that the holy writers of the bible are writing. I don't read the Newspapers or watch the news for signs, I leave that to Rexella and Jack.

So bring on those verses and lets get into this brother.

Hi David,

the fact that Jesus told the thief "today you will be with me in paradise". Which tells me Jesus decended to that realm and got,took, retrieved, or led the patriarchs out of there. is this correct?

1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

At the moment, I don't have an opinion about what Peter was referring to, but, with regard to 'led captivity captive', I have [i]always[/i] heard that (in my spirit....)(not heard it expounded though), as being the [i]entity[/i] of captivity... a spiritual force which is able to overcome people on the inside of their lives. This is where people remain imprisoned by fears, wounds, hope deferred, and that sort of thing. I'm not sure one could say this of the patriarchs, as Jesus Himself corrected His contenders with

Matthew 22
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? [b]God is not the God of the dead, but of the living[/b].

I am reminded of this

Psalms 133:3
As the dew of Hermon, [i]and as the dew[/i] that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, [i]even[/i] [b]life for evermore[/b].

CJaKfOrEsT said

... but see that we have been grafted into the Hebrew vine ...

Would you please explain this further?

Please also make reference to those who are not and never will be grafted into anything of God (- meaning His death, His resurrection, sonship or eternal life)?

I'm not asking for copious scripture... just a bunch of keys. 8-)

Aaron, thank you. I have a few comments and a question.

[EDIT] Okay; more truthfully, more than one question ;-) [end EDIT]

Israle is the chosen people of God. Part of the "choseness" (if that is a real word) is to have it's majority slain through chastening, while a remnant shall be preserved. To say that the church has taken Israel's place, as God's chosen people, is as much an error as to say that Israel will be spared, out of a sentimental pact from God.

Israel is God's chosen people, and we have been grafted into that. However, only a remnant of Israel will be spared, just as many of us gentile believers will also fall away.

Brother, I think I know what you're trying to say here, but I wouldn't call it chastening if the end is death. This is not what is meant by:

Hebrews 12:7
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?

'while a remnant shall be preserved.'

OK. But, just as Abraham, before either Covenant existed, was counted righteous through believing God's Personal word to him personally, surely this is a basic requirement to be counted as part of 'Israel', today?

Adherance to a form of religion based on a misinterpretation of Old Testament scriptures - the scriptures from which the gospel was preached by the first (Jewish by first birth) Christians - will not save them.... will it?

Am I right to assume you are taking for granted that those who will be 'spared' from the slaying, will be those who [i][b]also believe[/b][/i]?

Hebrews 3
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in [u]because[/u] of [b]unbelief[/b].

'To say that the church has taken Israel's place, as God's chosen people,'

Surely? [b]Peter[/b] who preached to Cornelius was not limiting the conditional 'choseness' he quotes from Exodus 19, to Jewish Christians, in his letter (1:1:20 - 1:2:12).

The significance of his mention of 'Gentiles' (v 12) marks the Church out as 'Israel' more than ever, since it comes from the lips of the man given the unenviable role of being the little rock on which the Church was (to be) built - by Jesus Himself.

EDIT: This adds to the significance of Jesus giving him a new name, and what that new name was, especially in the light of the 'living stones' analogy Peter uses, which is totally endorsed by Paul's words:

1 Corinthians 3
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, [you are] God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner[i]stone,[/i]

There were both Jews and gentiles in both the Corinthian and the Ephesian churches, just as there must have been in those scattered to whom Peter was writing. How have we ended up with an interpretation that assumes Peter was writing to Jewish Christians only? [EDIT end]

'is as much an error as to say that Israel will be spared, out of a sentimental pact from God.'

I agree that old Israel was and is not spared, time and time again, much of which is predictable from Moses' prophecies in Deuteronomy, and many other prophets' words, because God is after truth in the inward parts.

Therefore Paul reiterates the meaning of true Jewishness in God's sight, in Romans 2:29. But, if true Jewishness - by God's definition - the revelation of His own nature in a man born from above - resides in the Church, then while Israel transformed [EDIT](through second birth)[EDIT end] remains Israel under the New Covenant and, this grace is extended to gentiles also (under the New Covenant - remembering Israel under the Old Covenant was bound to accept those who wanted to join themselves to God's people from out of any other nation eg Ruth and Rahab, who are in Christ's human geneology), then why should this lead to [i]any[/i] controversy?

I am genuinely mystified.

We cannot exclude any verse of scripture from our understanding.

Just as Peter's mention of 'Gentiles' sets the Church forth clearly as 'Israel', so do Paul's writings (at the end of Galatians 6), particularly in Ephesians 2:14 and Romans 11:26.

This is enough controversy from me for now. :-)

I said I would post in this thread, here, p3 'What is a lie?' in General Topics, because 'replacement theology' was broached to me at a wedding I attended two weeks ago tomorrow.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16646&forum=35&start=20&29]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16646&forum=35&start=20&29[/url]

After the wedding, I had a dream which gradually rose more and more to my consciousness, and which is finally going to drive me to a study I've never done before, on what may be the reason Jesus said

Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I don't for one second believe that who are called 'the Jews' in a general way according to modern usage - rolling up ethnicity, religiosity and personal preference for being so identified - under one very loose title - are excluded from embracing the New Covenant.

But, scripture makes historical distinctions, which I need to research.

God had 'hedged' in his 'peculiar' people and expected fruit from them. The hedge was broken down in the cross so that there is no longer separation into Jew and Gentile. Theologically, the dividing wall was the Law.

To rebuild that hedge means that what Christ accomplished on the cross by taking the two (Jew and Gentile) and making one new man (In Himself) so making peace would have to be destroyed if God is to plant a vineyard, hedge it in, dig a winepress, build a Temple in the state of Israel.

Well, thats blasphemy!!

God is not the author of confusion. He said thru Paul, that there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile. Did God speak thru any of the prophets saying that there is going to be a distinction in 2000 years between the Jew and the Gentile?

I believe I read someplace that God made a NEW Covenant. New contracts always have new rights and stipulations, it included all nations, not just one in particular. Sounds like the covenant that God made with Abraham, that all the nations of the earth would be blessed.

Jay said

Opponents...

Also, your use of the very old phrase 'God's chosen people' sent me scurrying for the Bible references to it. Very very interesting.... because it doesn't actually appear in that form.

God chose [u]individual people[/u] again and again, and when He spoke in Exodus 19 (quoted accurately in 1 Peter 2), it is completely conditional on [i]all[/i] the people obeying His commandments.

Then, looking at 'have chosen', it is clear God chose Judah for the sake of David, and, at the pleasure of His own good will, He chose Jerusalem to put [u]His name[/u] there.

At no time did He overlook sins of any or every kind.

AD,

Your reference to previous posts made me to turn back the pages. Thank you for your very gentle exposition.

I'm now referring (without quoting the whole paragraph from p7), to something philologos said, as a springboard to an alternative thought.

I think it refers to Abraham rather than to a race...

For the purpose of understanding the olive tree, I see the legal status of 'the Branch' (Zech 6) as we have been discussing in 'Jacob or Heli', as being in the same picture as 'planted in death' (or grafted into death) - as the corn of wheat - enabling Him who was 'cut off' ('but not for Himself' Dan 9), to become that 'tree' from whence 'the root' now grows.

That's the [i]thumbnail[/i] which makes sense to my understanding.

Jay said

by saying 'opponents' I was referring to anyone who believes that Israel is separate and distinct from the Church and that God has a separate plan for them.

Jay quoted the apostle Peter's

[b]Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people[/b]; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."

God does choose individual people again and again, but the whole of the chosen are a people.

I had another thought today about the thumbnail in my previous post, which is that 'the root' is one picture which corresponds to Jesus Christ being the chief corner of the [i]foundation[/i] of the Church.

When I hear "Replacement Theology", it seems many people think the Church replaced the promises to Israel. According to Romans 11, after the fulness of the gentiles have come in, then Israel will be saved. Acts 1:6&7 , Peter asked Jesus about when the Kingdom will be restored to Israel...Jesus didn't say it wouldn't or that it has been replaced with the Church, Jesus said it is not for us to know the time of that event. It seems as though the ones who believe in this kind of Replacement Theology are anti-semitic. Replacement/Reconstruction/Dominion Theology all go together, and many false gospels have sprung from these beliefs, believing we are going to be restored back to what Adam & Eve were before the fall. Even if Adam & Eve never sinned, they were never considered co-heirs, or promised to be Glorified together with Jesus Christ. The first man adam was a living soul and made from the dust/earth...earthly. The second man Adam, is a life giving spirit and Jesus Christ is heavenly.

We will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. Bone of His Bone and Flesh of His flesh. A NEW Creation as never before. :-)

Katy-did wrote:
When I hear "Replacement Theology", it seems many people think the Church replaced the promises to Israel. According to Romans 11, after the fulness of the gentiles have come in, then Israel will be saved. Acts 1:6&7 , Peter asked Jesus about when the Kingdom will be restored to Israel...Jesus didn't say it wouldn't or that it has been replaced with the Church, Jesus said it is not for us to know the time of that event. It seems as though the ones who believe in this kind of Replacement Theology are anti-semitic. Replacement/Reconstruction/Dominion Theology all go together, and many false gospels have sprung from these beliefs, believing we are going to be restored back to what Adam & Eve were before the fall. Even if Adam & Eve never sinned, they were never considered co-heirs, or promised to be Glorified together with Jesus Christ. The first man adam was a living soul and made from the dust/earth...earthly. The second man Adam, is a life giving spirit and Jesus Christ is heavenly.

We will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. Bone of His Bone and Flesh of His flesh. A NEW Creation as never before. :-)

You might be intereseted in the thread on "Jews against Zionism" in the General Topics section. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16797&post_id=130980&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=130962&forum=35#130980

Excuse the long addy, I don't know how to make it brief! You can cut and paste, or look up the title in Search.

Blessings

jeannette

Katy-did said

It seems as though the ones who believe in this kind of Replacement Theology are anti-semitic.

Anti-semitism may well be a real force in many parts of the world, but I (for one) am most uncomfortable with [i]current[/i] accusations of anti-semitism [i]against the Church[/i]. There is no need for it. There is no [i]sense[/i] to it.

'Christians' who are racist show themselves in need of their mind being renewed and bringing it into line with scriptures such as

Revelation 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of [b][u]every[/u] kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation[/b];

roadsign wrote:

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”(Colossians 2:14 KJVS)
The 'us' here is the Sinai Covenant people.

Just them? So then, Rom. 7 does not apply to us: “we have been released from the law..” :6. I guess I had assumed that there is an aspect of God’s law that is universal – and we too cannot keep it apart from the new life in Christ ruled by the Spirit. I wonder why Paul makes such a point of the Old Covenant law even in his epistles to gentile believers.

Who are the “Sinai Covenant people” today? Surely we can’t refer to those who are referred to as “Jews” in the sense of those who adhere to Judaism, or an Israeli (political identity). And with genetic lineage to Jacob uncertain…… Also, the Jews have been welcoming proselytes for centuries.

What is a Jew?

It seems that today the “dividing wall of hostility” (anti-Semitism) is far removed from a linkage to the Sinai Covenant Law, or even the issues in Paul’s day – as there is no Temple, no sacrifices…. I think that there are other factors that fuel anti-Semetism.

Sorry for my confusion…. There just seems to be so many hazy ideas floating around in my mind.
Diane

Just a few thoughts, summarising where I've got to so far on the matter:

1. Spiritually the New Birth brings us into the "Israel of God", Jew and Gentile together, and this means the "dividing wall" is removed.

Here the temptation is for one group to exalt themselves proudly against the other. Jews because of their special place in sacred history, non-Jews because most Jews rejected their Messiah, while many Gentiles received Him. In the latter case it is an aspect of anti-semitism.

2. Politically, (though it's actually a spiritual thing too) Satan hates Israel and the Jews, ([u]whether born again or not[/u]) because of what they represent. For whether they acknowledge the God of their ancestors or not, and whether they like it or not, they are witnesses, by their very existence, of the truth of God's word, and His fulfilled promises. Also, I would think Israel is unpleasant reminder to Satan of the One who came from that nation, and who "bruised his head", in spite of all his attacks and temptations.

Therefore Satan aims to destroy Israel, as he has done throughout their history (through such men as Haman, Herod, Hitler and others). In the end he will move all nations to rise against Israel and fight against her.

Here the temptation is for some - even some Jews - to deny that modern Israel has [i]any[/i] special place any more in God's plan for the nations. The idea that [i]God[/i] was fulfilling His Word in 1948 is rejected by those who hold this view. Even though Scripture shows that He often uses men and political situations (as Satan does also) to bring about His will among nations.

This is also a form of anti-semitism, or perhaps more correctly anti-Zionism.

Of course some Jewish people use their fancied supreiority to push a political agenda, (even though the Lord said it is [i]not[/i] because of their righteousness but because of His great Name that He still keeps, and will keep, His Word concerning them), but this doesn't make any difference to the broader picture.

Blessings

Jeannette

Jeannette: Thank you for your recommendation to read the article you posted. I haven't read it yet, but would like to ask you, do you believe in the 1000 Year Millennial Kingdom Reign when Jesus will fulfill the promises to Earthly Israel and take the Throne of David? Do you believe the Church has a special calling out to reign and rule with Christ during that time? I do know Isaiah 14 has not been fulfilled, as the world or earth does not or has never (Yet anyway)had peace ( the whole world or earth is at rest)..yet. Satan, who set's his throne above the stars (I believe this is referring to anti-christ against Israel) and a great statement from Jesus in Revelations ...(the Root and Offspring of David, Bright and Morning Star)(Stars have always been associated with Israel, Judges 5, and Joseph's dream, etc,) would be something only Jewish people would pick up on. We are, as the Body of Christ considered Abraham's seed, Christ, but the Root and offspring of David is referring to KING.
Hope I haven't confused you too much.

Looking forward to your answer.
In Christ
Katy-did..(nick name)!
:-)

Katy-did wrote:
Jeannette: Thank you for your recommendation to read the article you posted. I haven't read it yet, but would like to ask you, do you believe in the 1000 Year Millennial Kingdom Reign when Jesus will fulfill the promises to Earthly Israel and take the Throne of David? Do you believe the Church has a special calling out to reign and rule with Christ during that time? I do know Isaiah 14 has not been fulfilled, as the world or earth does not or has never (Yet anyway)had peace ( the whole world or earth is at rest)..yet. Satan, who set's his throne above the stars (I believe this is referring to anti-christ against Israel) and a great statement from Jesus in Revelations ...(the Root and Offspring of David, Bright and Morning Star)(Stars have always been associated with Israel, Judges 5, and Joseph's dream, etc,) would be something only Jewish people would pick up on. We are, as the Body of Christ considered Abraham's seed, Christ, but the Root and offspring of David is referring to KING.
Hope I haven't confused you too much.

Looking forward to your answer.
In Christ
Katy-did..(nick name)!
:-)

If possible could you put the questions one at a time, rather than all together in a jumble (Or its seems like a jumble at the moment! Its late at night here, and I can confuse myself very well indeed without any outside help - even in the daytime!)

Although the simple answer to most of your questions is probably "I don't know"! Bible interpretation of "Last Days issues such as the Millennium for example, is very difficult because so much of the books that deal with it (Daniel and Revelation for example) is symbolic, or the time scale of events isn't necessarily in chronological order.

The point is, [i]are we ready[/i] for Jesus' return? rather than "how what when and where". Although I think we should have some idea of that too, so we can recognise what's going to happen when it does.

Thanks

Blessings

Jeannette :-D
PS it wasn't an article but the thread on "Jews against Zionism" which quickly became yet another discussion on the place of Israel in God's purposes.

crsschk wrote:

What is a Jew?

For he is [u]not[/u] a Jew, which is one [u]outwardly[/u]; [i]neither[/i] is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But [u]he is[/u] a Jew, which is one [u]inwardly[/u]; and circumcision [i]is[/i] that of [u]the heart, in the spirit[/u], and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 2:28,29

You are right of course. I quoted or referred to this scripture fairly recently on the same context - probably in another thread, or in a pm…

But, until the Lord returns, and [i]all[/i] things are finally summed up in Him, there are two aspects to consider: two Israels, not one, two Jerusalems, not one, two chosen peoples, not one.

I’m beginning to believe that this is connected to an important spiritual principle of its own, that is much broader than the Israel question itself:

But these [i]thinks[/i] take so much time. I wanted to look at and respond to another of your posts on the “Jews against Zionism” thread, but just haven’t been able yet.

Blessings

Jeannette

Hi Aaron, here is an attempt to respond to your last posts.

CJaKfOrEsT wrote
LittleGift wrote:

Here the temptation is for some - even some Jews - to deny that modern Israel has any special place any more in God's plan for the nations. The idea that God was fulfilling His Word in 1948 is rejected by those who hold this view. Even though Scripture shows that He often uses men and political situations (as Satan does also) to bring about His will among nations.

This is also a form of anti-semitism, or perhaps more correctly anti-Zionism.

Katy-did wrote:
I do know Isaiah 14 has not been fulfilled, as the world or earth does not or has never (Yet anyway)had peace ( the whole world or earth is at rest)..yet.

Jeannette,

Your probably going to think that I am stalking you here,

but this issue is one of such incredible importance, that to miss this is to potential miss the crux of the heartbeat of the very character of God. So far I have been intentionally vague, hoping that you will examine what has been put before you, and draw you own conclusions.

You seem to have the idea that the issue of rejecting Zionism is to ignore God's involvement in the events of 1948.

This is not the case. It is more a matter of correctly interpreting what God was actually fulfilling, by His establishing of a political sphere within the land that He has chosen for His chosen people. Many assume that this was the promised return to the land, as spoken by the prophets, and will ultimately usher in the return of the Lord. The basis of this assumption is that they read a portion of Scripture (unaware of where it specifically is, myself) that apparently implies that He will return within a generation of Israel's restoration.

Interpretation of this depends on what is meant by “generation”, and whether it means the whole of what Jesus was telling them or only a part. The New Testament believers thought it meant [i]all[/i] would be fulfilled, including Jesus’ return, in their lifetime, or before the last apostle, who had seen Jesus in the flesh, died. And of course, in 70 AD part of this passage – the warning of Jerusalem’s destruction - was fulfilled (unless there is another fulfilment still to come?) But the rest wasn’t fulfilled then, as Jesus still hasn’t returned (full Preterists think He has!)

Could it not be said that Israel could have made such an assumption when Ezra and Nehemiah restored the Hebrew nation, and rebuilt the temple?

The problem is, the prophets pointed to an ultimate fulfilment, where the Law would go forth out of Zion, and the swords would be beaten into plowshares, because men would not learn war anymore. Obviously this did not occur, and so this could not have been such an ultimate fulfilment, which means that there must have been another to follow.

We find also, in 1948 that many prophetic conditions were not met, including there being a holocaust where 1/3 of the world's Jewish population perished, when the prophets told us that 2/3 would die. I highlighted the portion of Katy-did's post, because this statement serves as a "smoking gun", although none of her statements can be separated from each other.

It is within the scope of prophetic interpretation that God could be involved in the establishment of the Zionist state, as He was directly involved in the raising up of Assyria for the invasion of Israel. Consider the fact that God actually sent a reluctant prophet into the Assyrian capital, and that prophet's reluctance was rooted in the fact that he knew that if the Ninevites repented in response to his warnings, then God would spare them from His impending wrath. You can draw your own conclusions as to the relevance of such a comparison being made.

I still don’t know if we agree or not so far! :-?

Again I recommend the Holocaust Book. Or even an article that I wrote called The Cleansing of the Sanctuary. To be honest, there is much that I could amend in this article, having seen much to add to this understanding of Israel and the church, in the past month or so, but it serves as a good primer.

[i][b]It is possible that the churches very integrity could be made or broken over its comprehension of its place in this cosmic drama[/b][/i]. To miss this, could mean to miss the very intention of God in His grafting of the Gentiles into His Hebrew vineyard.

LittleGift wrote:

The point is, are we ready for Jesus' return? rather than "how what when and where". Although I think we should have some idea of that too, so we can recognise what's going to happen when it does.

Just an addendum to my previous post, it isn't a matter of "how what when and where", but "why". To us has been given the mysteries, amongst them the mystery of Israel, that we may be stewards of them. It is a cop out to ignore the mysteries based on their "mysteriousness", for as Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "who has known the mind of the Lord that we may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ."

To ignore the issue of Israel, and its component in eschatology, even to ignore eschatology itself, is to risk neglecting a component of what God has revealed to us by His Spirit. Could this constitute a possible "burying of the talent" that God has given to us? (Mat 25:24-30)

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Deut 29:29

Blessings

Jeannette

LittleGift wrote:

But, until the Lord returns, and [i]all[/i] things are finally summed up in Him, there are two aspects to consider: two Israels, not one, two Jerusalems, not one, two chosen peoples, not one.

I’m beginning to believe that this is connected to an important spiritual principle of its own, that is much broader than the Israel question itself:

I started a new thread on this, because it is such a broad principle. "Binocular vision - Hebrews 11. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17225&post_id=134162&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=0&forum=36#134162

Jeannette

P.S. Mike, It just occurred to me that saying "You are right of course" may have sounded a bit patronising. What I meant was that I agree with your answer to "what is a Jew"!

roadsign wrote:

two chosen peoples, not one.

??
Ephesians 2.

" He made ONE new man out of the two." 2:16
... one body....

"One" seems to be a key word in Ephesians.

Who were the two spoken about in Ephesians?

Diane

But what I called the two groups of "chosen" people are the physical and the spiritual. The spiritual people are those spoken of in Ephesians 2, the physical are the Jews. (Is it possible to belong to both categories? The answer maybe depends on one's definitions and use of words?)

The spiritual aspect is the greater of course, and the way of being "chosen" is the spiritual birth, rather than physical birth or religious prostelytism mode of entry to the other category.

And for certain, as Ephesians says, there is no longer any "middle wall of partition" between born-again Jew and Gentile.

Hope that makes my meaning clear. It's sometimes difficult to know how to express things in words that make sense to others.

Blessings

jeannette

Christinyou wrote:
Romans 3:19-31 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Law brings those that are under the Law to Christ. The Holy Spirit brings us to the knowledge of sin and to Christ. All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.
The Law cannot save to the utmost, only Christ can save and He nailed the Law to His Cross that all might be saved by Grace through Faith. That is the Jew by Faith and the Gentile through Faith. The Jew by their faith which originates in God and the Gentile through the Faith of Jesus Christ that is born again in us.

Galatians 2:14-17 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

The Jews were and are saved by repentance and believing in Christ and being baptized with water. Salvation by faith.

The Gentiles are saved by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and through the Faith of Jesus Christ are born again by Incorruptable Seed which is Christ the Word of God. Salvation through Faith.

Romans 3:29-31 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision (((by))) faith, and uncircumcision (((through)))

faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Yet in Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile, for we since the Cross are all baptized into one Spirit, not water.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The living water He wanted to give the woman at the well.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

The Incorruptable Seed of God the Father and river of Living Water Himself, Jesus Christ, that is our salvation, the mystery hidden until it was given to Paul by Jesus Christ Himself.

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

We are not Hebrew Christians. We are son's of God by the Christ-One that is in us, Christ-ones by The Son of God Himself, not Jews or Gentiles.

In Christ: Phillip

AMEN to all of that!

Just wondering though, are you responding to what I said, or to someone else, or in general?

I only ask because I get the impression that you maybe wrote this because you [i]think[/i] you disagree with me 8-)

In fact you are talking about the most important (and also everlasting) of what I call "the two Israel's" - the spiritual one.

So I agree!

In Him

Jeannette

Diane always had such a good way of putting things.

"Am I sinning against anyone if I regard all who are saved, whether Jew or Gentile, as part of this kingdom and nothing else? And if God does have a special role for our Jewish friends in a future era, surely that he can take care of it. Surely we don't need to overly strain that issue. That just seems to get us into messy quagmire and rifts. How can we know who are genetically linked to Abraham? I may very well be. And with so many proselytes having been added to Judaism over the centuries, even during Bible days, I don't think we can easily make two distinct groups of people, apart from a lot of misfires. Why! I just read on a site where the New Jerusalem was "proven" to be the Bible Belt in the USA (Wouldn't that make Abraham groan!) "

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=36&topic_id=15106&post_id=118884&viewmode=thread&order=0#118884

Why are you dragging up ancient posts to support your opinions that most
Christians oppose?

I brought up a conciliatory remark from Diane, because I think we should remember that we love the Lord and each other.