Acquire the fire. Acquire WHAT fire?

Saints,

This post may reveal my age :-o

Last weekend, some youth from our church went to see the popular "Acquire the Fire" down in San Antonio. I don't really know anything about ATF, other than it's some sort of travelling rally geared to "fire up" youth group kids. One of the girls (my niece) came back seemingly impacted and even "signed up" to go on a remote missionary trip come summer. Of course, knowing me, I am instantly wary of anything that purposes to instill a kind of "fire" in people that are plainly destitute of holiness and self-denial. Many of the kids are now talking about missions and other radical stuff, but it remains to be seen what the long term results will be. I sat in youth group yesterday and just listened. There was a lot of talk about signs and wonders, testimonies of miracles, awesome preaching, awesome worship bands, etc. The stuff you always seem to hear about at these types of functions.

Brethren, I have become so disillusioned by fireshows and rallies and spectacular feats of power-evangelism that, in the long run, only seem to stir the outward, soulish morale without instilling a supernatural transformation inwardly. I believe this inward transformation will become apparent to everyone when a kid is truly touched by God and genuinely repents.

How is it possible for a group like this to have missionary "sign-up sheets" outside the stadium for young kids to travel to Africa! Oh, woe unto us if a dazzling lightshow brought a child to make this decision.

I understand I am being skeptical. I really don't know anything about Ron Luce and ATF other than what I've heard from others. Am I being too unreasonable here? Are any of you familiar with this organization?

Brother Paul

Last year the youth minister at my church took seven kids to an ATF event. The three unsaved went forward and “got saved”. They no longer attend our church…or any other.

I have no other information on ATF.

Emotionalism is very dangerous and hard for youth to discern.

God bless

TJ

http://web.mac.com/nisaac2001/iWeb/YOF/Acquire%20The%20Fire_files/DSCF9928.jpg

Here is an image of a band named "Skillet" that perfoms at these types of rallies. I look at this, and I want to weep. How did Satan ever infiltrate? If this is a sampling of the "fire" that is yet to be "acquired"...God help us.

Oh, what has happened to the glorious hymns of Wesley and Watts? Is this the fruit that provokes one to a life of holiness and humility?

Never mind your age, I'm old too, I'm 44.

I don't know about this group, I don't know if they have a website, so I'm just going by what you have said in your post.

First, what and whose 'fire' are the youth supposed to be acquiring?

If they are not being specific, and just using the correct cliche to stir up feelings and emotions, then they need to be tested in the light of God's word.

Most western children are too spineless to go on a mission trip to another western nation, let alone Africa.

And will the parents be going too? If not, why not?

Who would let their children just go to a foreign nation with someone they do not know that well, or for very long, just as long as that person happens to mention Jesus?

I wouldn't let my children go.

Once the zeal of the rally has gone, and it will go, what is left?

Unfortunately, I'm a sceptic too, as if you can't tell!

So, maybe someone less biased than myself can comment.

But for me, I wouldn't waste my time with them.

God bless.

http://web.mac.com/nisaac2001/iWeb/YOF/Acquire%20The%20Fire_files/DSCF0038.jpg

Some girls meeting with a humble "worship" band after the rally.

I went to Aquire the Fire when I was a junior in high school. I'm also going to have to jump on the skeptical boat. I don't remember the Lord doing anything in my heart, and I saw no change in anyone from my youth group that attended. The whole thing was very media oriented, videos of some evil plot and its distruction. I really didn't understand it. I don't remember any of the speakers, only the bands. When it was time to get right with Jesus they played "This is the Air I Breathe" for about 30 mins. That basically ruined that song for me. That's about all I remember though...I do remember being discuraged the following week because I had expected for the Lord to set my heart ablase during the gathering. But, I felt just as dead as before. Praise God He changed me since then and set a standard in my heart.

I'm sure the Lord does work in the hearts of some teens through ATF. He's a huge God and can use anything. And I know there has been some genuine decisions for Christ for His Glory. So praise God. We just have to pray that the Spirit of the Lord would fall on those kids during ATF and they see how Holy God is, how He deserves glory, how sinful they really are, and how much they need Christ. No because of the music, not because of the skits, dramas, lights, media, or speakers. But because of the Lord and the Holy Spirit moving in and around them.

Unreasonable--NO
Wise--YES.

We must exercise caution and give sound advice where children/teens are concerned. Many of these kind of rallies are nothing more than emotional boosters that prey on the unsuspecting. I have seen no real change in others who have gone to events like this one. Prayer and suplication are certainly in order for protection.

Ok guys, I am 20, I have not personally been to ATF, but I have about thirty friends who have been.

I questioned them about it to see if it was worth going to or not, (because I wanted to go myself) and without a doubt, they would tell me that God broke in upon them and seriously touched them. They would say that if it were not for ATF, they might no be serving God right now.

[b][color=CC0000]Ok, to the person who trashed Skillet I have some questions for you:

1.Have you ever been to a Skillet concert?

2.Have you ever read the words to songs written by Skillet?

3. Have you ever personally met the band members and spoken to them?[/color][/b]

[b]Well I have, and you are completely out of place in what you said. If it had been almost any other band, I might have been less annoyed by the ignorance.

Skillet is one band, that I have spent time pouring over their lyrics because they contain more scripture than many preachers sermons do.

They are not self seeking, self centered, or greedy like the contemporary worship circle is. They are a hundred percent genuine in their walk before the Lord.

Just because you don't understand our culture, does not give you the right to say it is wrong.[/b]

Just because a band has verses in their songs does not mean they are walking in Him. There are a lot of religouse/hypocrites using God's word.

You do not have to meet a group to know if they are of the Lord or not. You can listen and look at the prosperity preachers and know what they are all about. Just like you can look at the many christian rock groups and know if it is all about getting glory for God or for THEM. God gives us discernment that we may judge righteosly, to protect us from wolves, liars, thiefs, from falling in delusion, but many christians are only partaking in milk that they cannot discern. Many are still inlove with the world that they fall easily to delusion.

The cool videos, posters, rock clothes, luscious lifestyle just SCREAMS its ALL about ME and the love of the world. The Word tells us not to love the world, to dress modest, and meek. Many rock groups are encouraging the youth to do totally the opposite.

I've been to my share of christian rock concerts. Friends took me to them right after I got saved. 2 was enough for me! I was young in the Lord then, but even as a new christian, I knew that this was not from God, but the world. Too much like the world and SELF was very strong! After the Delirouse concert, I wanted to puke! After that concert, I made up my mind that I will never support such groups that uses the name of Jesus for their own glory and fame, cashing in on God's word.

Alot of christian rock bands use Jesus name for THEIR FAME. It is very obviouse.

Just because you don't understand our culture, does not give you the right to say it is wrong.

Brother if you are in the Family of God culture should not dtermine our efforts.

How can you speak to an elder in such a manner? Your response is from emotion and arrogance, and is very telling that God has put His finger upon something in your heart.

Do you know what gives Bro. Paul the right to say what he has? the fact that he has probably wept over the pictures, bands etc before he even spoke a word. I would not be surpirsed that he has wept and cried out to God for you as well, thus he has not answered your response yet.

I do not care what the current "chrsitian culture" offers as the majority of it tepid to say the least, and lacking in any kind of doctrinal truth, or Scriptural conversion, but ratheer is set up to appeal to the flesh and then suddenly switch to the Spirit.

I am reminded of what Paul Washer said, "some of the things you love God hates!"

One last thing, I used to listen to Skillet, and even knew the man that makes John's guitars. Now please do not take this as some sort of spiritual ego trip, but then I grew up, and began to see things differently. They are talented musicians for sure, but that does not mean anything, God does not need entertainers.

Those guys look pretty cool -I'd hang out with them!

Let me get one thing straight, if they love Jesus it doesn't matter if they have a mohawk or piercings.

I bet Jesus would prefer to go to a punk rock show than some of our churches.

It's sad to hear about the kids in one of the posts earlier, but you know what, we can judge a whole event or organization by a few kids but that would be wrong.

We all love Leonard Ravenhill and Keith Green... well do you know where the headquarters of ATF is located? On Keith Green's ranch (the old LDM campus) in Texas! A lot of the senior members of the ministry were raised up through Last Days and other ministries we all love!

They use a different 'means' to reach out to youth, but their theology is sound! There's always going to be problems in any ministry, I bet even David Wilkerson has a few rotten eggs, but don't judge this book by it's cover.

They're getting kids into missions! That's awesome, that was Keith Green's final desire -it's good to see that someone is still listening 25 years later.

Wow, me and Ben agreeing on something... it must be the end times!

Hi Ben,

I have a 20 year old that was in my youth group for many years and tells me he is not going to ATF [i]because[/i] Skillet is going to be there. His concern is after reading about some of their plans to return to bars (this is second hand from him) to play that that is a problem for him.

Personally I have not come to a full opinion as of yet. My great concern is not the lyrics as important that that is. My concern is what 'spirit' the music is of.

Just because you don't understand our culture, does not give you the right to say it is wrong.

As a youth pastor of several years and father of 5 teen aged children this stament is very confusing to me. Just exactly what is 'our culture'? As Christians we are to emulate the person of Jesus Christ to the best of our ability. Is there some sort of youth sub culture going on that only they can 'understand'. I grew up in the sex/drugs/and rock and roll of the 1980's. I have seen the punk bands the tatoos, piercings, mohawks and concert shirts. I grew up in an age when guys wore shirts with 666 plastered on the front and devil worship as part and portion of the concerts. Bands like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest. So it is not that I and many here may not be familiar with the 'culture'. But when I went to church I absolutely did not expect Christianity to model itself after Maiden and Priest. If it did, as a teen or youth, I had been utterly shocked and disappointed.

Hi Ben! I had to edit this comment a bit; I felt the original was perhaps too angry. I love you, dear brother, and I pray this post explains where I'm coming from in a more gentle, charitable manner.

You asked me this question:

Have you ever been to a Skillet concert?

No, and you couldn't pay me to go. I've been in Christian bookstores when their music is being played and I have to leave. Shouldn't that be enough? Their music is ugly and worldly and offensive to my ears. It does not provoke me to a deeper surrender and humilty in God; it, in fact, reminds me of my flesh-driven unregenerate life! I am upset because this "worship music" has usurped our heritage's glorious hymns. Our kids have never been exposed to the ineffable purity of God's presence through the singing of hymns - they put on their headphones and just blare this music as loud as it can go. I'v3e seen it time and time again. They bring their iPods to youth group, wearing daemonic-looking shirts and just zone out or try to mosh out. If you try to reach these kids with Wesley and Watts, they've already built up an automatic apathy for anything "old sounding", because the old hymns do not instantly boost their flesh. There's nothing there for them to hang on to. It's almost as if th music spiritually lobotomizes them. You can't have a jumping, hollering party singing, "Arise, My Soul Arise" or "Is Thy Heart Right With God?", but you can jump and shout and whistle to Skillet and Newsboys. Butr what if you take the music away? Will they still jump and shout and whistle if someone were up on stage just [i]quoting[/i] Skillet lyrics? Why do we need the spikey hair and black mascara and evil-looking smirks and explosions and smoke machines and flourescent lights to "fire" the kids up? Can't the lyrics of the worship alone achieve this?

Just because you don't understand our culture, does not give you the right to say it is wrong.

Dear brother, I understand your [i]culture[/i] just fine - and I tell you it has no place in God's church. I understand that modern culture, and the [i]spirit[/i] it espouses is ungodly superficial, and at utter enmity with God's holiness. Your generation will reap what it sows, Ben. Your abhorrence of all that is pure and lovely and humble diffuses through modern youth groups like a noxious stench. I see first-hand the covetous cliques in youth fellowships, the strutting, the vast identity crisis of not knowing who they are in Christ. The totally dependancy on music and beats to get into God's supposed presence. And I see the spirit of this culture usurping the Holy Spirit's rightful role of mentorship: instead of God, the [i]culture[/i] influences the way kids dress, their mannerisms, etc. And I see this spirit typified in bands like Skillet.

You are right that God put a finger on my heart, I was a little angry at what I saw written.

But I do want to say that simply because rock may have been someones culture when they were unsaved, does not make it now sinful for everyone else.

The Christian rock scene is not like the worldly rock scene. Albeit that there are some bands who are far too questionable for my walk with the Lord. So what do I do? I don't listen to those bands, but to the ones who do glorify God, like Skillet, I investigate and seek God about them. Skillet has been one of the few burning and shining lamps in the Christian rock scene. Keeping their lyrics holy before God. They pray before they play. They witness many times, maybe not every show, but almost.

What you don't seem to realize is that there are some people out their who will not listen to any of us, but they will listen to Skillet. And God uses that.

Now do I say that we are supposed to try to look, smell, taste, think, dress like the world? No, I don't, but even Paul says " I have become all things to all men, that I might win a few." Why did he do that? I think it's obvious.

Interesting that while you slam someone for being critical of your favorite band... you throw a blanket of critisism over an entire genre of music and musicians. If we can dispense with the hypocracy around here, perhaps we might get something accomplished for the kingdom.

You're right. (see, I told you that I admit it when I'm wrong)

Ben will, I'm sure, take exception to this... but I've been around enough to know that the vast majority of church youth groups spend more time and energy on entertainment than they do serious Bible study and prayer. I know there are exceptions, but not many. Thats a fact. Ben can throw a hissy and tell me I'm wrong... but I'm not wrong.

Actually, I agree, I think for the most part that the youth groups in America are pathetic babysitting devices. They are so caught up in the world it's ridiculous, they try to fit God in somewhere, but if the numbers drop, then they become even more user friendly. If they would all shut up and go pray for the same time that they have their Youth group, we would probably see revival come from it.

ATF is not evil. Dont misunderstand me. But the concept is flawed. It is a substitute for learning, studying, memorizing, obey and living out the Word of God. Show me a teenager who spends 1 hour a day (or more) in serious study of the Word and in prayer... and I'll show you a teenager who is too busy for Jesus to even attend ATF.

Well, this quotes well, but it is not true. I have a couple of close friends, and we all are committed to the Lord, spending some days as much as five or eight hours in prayer and serious study, now generally its about one and a half to two hours, but there are those awesome days! And we are not too busy to go see a band play, or attend a concert now and then, now do we go every weekend and spend our money there? No, we don't, (we don't have enough money...lol)

Ben, you can argue with me on this all you want. But I'm right about this. And if you belong to a "culture" that sets itself at odds with precious saints who have been walking with God for quite awhile (such as PaulWest), then you're in the wrong "culture", my friend. You should be chasing after people like him, trying to soak up as much wisdom as you can... not being in rebellion toward them.

You see Krispy, I agree with you, if any band is taking the place of prayer and study, cast it away from you, I don't care how good they are.

But I disagree with your last statement about the being at odds with the older culture.

If we are in line with scripture, and they are slamming us, it is them who need correction and not us. Now I am not making a blanket statement that the whole Christian rock scene is good. There are a number of bands that I don't support at all, why? They are not following God, they look like the world, act like the world, and dress like the world, and they never use that to reach out to the world. And so I don't support them.

Studying missions there's one theme we talk about a lot -how do we allow a people group to become Christian but still be that people group.

Often we go out and try to win people to Christ by making them patriotic Americans -even if they're indiginous Kenyans or Vietnamese. We need to be able to see what is good about their culture and allow that to continue while bringing them to the saving faith of Jesus.

Robert de Nobili and Mateo Ricci were successful in China because they wore chinese clothing, spoke fluent chinese, could wax eloquent in Chinese with the best poets and philosophers of the time in China... and by bringing them Jesus through 'means' that the Chinese could understand. Their ministry flourished!

We have tribes of youth who would accept Jesus if we didn't force them to listen to our music and join our 'american church' culture. Let's just be honest here, everything we think of as part of Christianity in the USA isn't always part of Christianity to people in other regions of the world.

They need Jesus, they don't need our churches... I'm just glad someone is going to them as a cross-cultural missionary to reach them with the Gospel, because even though it's only a small generational gap, there are major cultural issues that you might not even be aware of.

another thing to think about is, if you cant let go of your music/culturestyle...how can you let go of everything else we need to let go to follow Christ? sometimes we fight so hard to keep something small of the world... we even try and blend it and mix it whit Jesus..but it wont last the final fire...

To Paul West:

No, and you couldn't pay me to go.

I'm just surprised that if you think it is all so sinful, why you don't go there and reach out to all the lost sinful people at those shows.

By the way, I love the old hymns far more than almost anything I ever have hear written.

Ben. Your abhorrence of all that is pure and lovely and humble diffuses through modern youth groups like a noxious stench. I see first-hand the covetous cliques in youth fellowships, the strutting, the vast identity crisis of not knowing who they are in Christ. The totally dependancy on music and beats to get into God's supposed presence.

Do you suppose for one second that I do not see those things? I am imersed in that stuff all around me and I hate it. I have made my life a pursuit to be able to reach any culture by meeting them on their level. God has given me that ability. My friends range from the age of 2 to the age of seventy, and I am able to relate to their culture and walk with them.

[b]You just labeled me as someone who has an abhorence of all that is pure and lovely.

God forgive you for your ill tempered words and quick tongue. You do not know my heart, neither do you understand the deep things of God concerning my life.[/b]

[b]To everyone who keeps telling me that Paul West weeps over things before he says them, I fail to see where the weeping and prayer has caused him to attack me with these accusations.[/b]

And I see this spirit typified in bands like Skillet.

If you judge them the same way you judge me, then it is obvious your judgment is not only slightly flawed, but off entirely.

Just because a band has verses in their songs does not mean they are walking in Him. There are a lot of religouse/hypocrites using God's word.

Doesn't mean they are not walking in Him either.

I have listened to almost everything Skillet has produced and I am a fan.

I also recommend their worship album [url=http://www.amazon.com/Ardent-Worship-Skillet-Live/dp/B0009RQSJQ]on this site.[/url]

I believe it all comes down to preferences. Young people today are not opposed to the old fashioned hymns but they also want to jump up and down and shout praises to God without being ridiculed by the church.

I hear people say 'Give me the old Wesley hymns' to which I say 'Great!' Love those hymns, but don't discount today's music that glorifies God simply because you don't like the way it sounds or looks. Just it by the work God is doing among it.

ATF bands:
P.O.D.
Pulling from their SoCal roots, mixing hip-hop, reggae, and hardcore punk, P.O.D. (Payable on Death) has defined a different kind of hard rock. Now composed of Sonny Sandoval's vocals, Noah 'Wuv' Bernardo on Drums, Traa Daniels on Bass, and Jason Truby on Guitar, P.O.D. is recognized internationally through their unique brand of music as a voice of those who persevere and live by their Faith.

Toby Mac
Toby Mac wants to start a revolution, one that will sweep through cities and erase the divisive lines that keep people and cultures apart. Holding up his microphone like a fist in the air, this Grammy-winning artist sees his opportunity in the society-shaping power of music. As a true artist, it's not his impressive sales heights or awards that fire up his voice, but rather it's an unwavering quest to make songs that connect and inspire all who hear them.

casting crowns
Part worship band, part contemporary Christian rock, Casting Crowns have come a long way in a very short time. Since they first appeared on the scene in 2003, they have certainly carved out a name for themselves in the Christian music industry. However, talk to any member of the band and you will hear them say that awards, record sales, and radio play are the last things on their minds. What matters most to Casting Crowns is touched hearts and changed lives. The group never fails to be as personal and real as possible with their audience. Focusing on ministry above publicity, Casting Crowns has delivered powerful lyrics time after time, continually challenging the church status quo and inspiring listeners to dig deeper into their personal walks with Jesus.

Flyleaf
Flyleaf's infectiously heavy positivism is a fresh contrast to many rockers reopening old wounds by singing about their broken homes and broken hearts. Flyleaf's songs about abuse, neglect, addiction and dysfunction are messages about overcoming adversity to prove that hope in Christ shines brighter than the darkness of despair.
“I used to be in a really negative band, and that seemed to almost fuel my emptiness because that is what the songs were about.” says charismatic singer, Lacey Mosley. “That's why I think what we're doing is important because there needs to be something heavy out there that has a positive message so people see that its possible to get through the worst situations.”
With Jared Hartmann on guitar, Pat Seals on bass, Sameer Bhattacharya on guitar, and James Culpepper on drums, the band's wide array of brooding beats, atmospheric textures and lunging riffs compliment Mosley's aggressive yet beautiful and emotionally revealing lyrics.

PILLAR
Make no mistake about it: Pillar is not the rock 'n' roll of yesterday, but the forward moving revolution of today and tomorrow. Their zealous passion incinerates today's gimmicky knockoffs, leaving pretenders in the dust. The members of Pillar; vocalist Rob Beckley, bassist Kalel, guitarist Noah Henson, and drummer Lester Estelle, exude genuine boldness.
Rich in spirited energy and striking dynamics that accentuate sharp and relevant lyrics, Pillar finds power in the passion and conviction of their faith, and pours this energy into their performances. Pillar has full faith that their songs will deliver a powerful, positive impact while igniting a bright musical spark in a dark world.

SKILLET
Gritty guitar riffs, thunderous instrumental clashes, and deep resonating vocals make Skillet hard to ignore. The intense sound is a catalyst for lyrics that reveal passion and hope. John Cooper on lead vocals and bass, John's wife Korey Cooper on guitar and keyboard, Ben Kasica on guitar, and Lori Peters on drums give it their all on every song. While the band may have two females in their lineup, that doesn't mean they don't rock as hard as other all-male artists. Frontman John Coper says, “Lori is insane! We played some concerts where the soundman told us that he had to turn down the drums after the last bands played because the guys weren't hitting as hard as our drummer!” That feeling of signature energy results from loving music and loving God with a passion that cannot be muted.

thousand foot krutch
Shedding their hip-hop influences, and pushing forward into a new brand of pure high-energy rock, Thousand Foot Krutch has perfectly melded heavy guitar riffs with catchy hooks to create a new sound.
Currently consisting of Trevor McNevan on vocals, Joel Bruyere on bass, Steve Augustine on drums, and Jamie Aplin on guitar, the Toronto-based group is set on not selling out. “When hip-hop and rock are mixed and put together honestly, it can be a great sound,” explains Augustine. “But is seemed like too many bands were doing it just to sell records.” These are not guys who hide behind an image or a guitar solo. McNevan explains, “I just write songs from my point of view, and we just want to spread hope and positivity.”

Hillsong united
Hailing from "Down under", Hillsong United are more than a worship band. With their own unique and vibrant sound, this Aussie group continues to impress both spiritually and musically, with youth-oriented worship lyrics and even stronger melodies that make you want to join in with the mob of worshippers after just one or two songs. With their lead singer Joel Houston leading the way and other members of the Hillsong Church in Australia rounding out this symphony of worship, Hillsong United keeps their music edgy and focused on what's important.

hawk nelson
Hawk Nelson is a great pop rock band that just flat-out knows how to make you have a fun time. With catchy explosive beats and contagious lyrics, Hawk Nelson delivers a powerful and exciting show that is sure to leave fans chanting for more.
Besides having a great time, though, Hawk Nelson is about delivering a message that is real and meaningful. “I think it’s important that we learn how to help people, whether it’s a third-world country or right here in our backyards,” says Daniel Biro, bass player. “It’s what we’ve always been about. People have always helped us, and we’ve tried to pass that on in anyway we can. We seek to create anthems to get you thinking about what it is that you want to do with your life and then give you a jump-start to go all-out for it. No matter what the ambition, get out there and go do it. We are having the time of our lives!”

BARLOWGIRL
An all-girl band made up of sisters Rebecca, Alyssa and Lauren Barlow; they combine young rockin' energy with mature Godly morals. The girls are very upfront about living life with passion for God. "We believe that God is calling everyone to live a life that is fully surrendered to Him so that He can do His work in us and begin to show us His true purpose for our lives. We're definitely not saying 'we've mastered this concept and now it's your turn', but instead that this is a daily process and a journey that all of us will be on forever." “In a world that constantly bombards us with impurity and immodesty, we feel called to take a stand against what the world is telling us is acceptable.”

UNHINDERED
Starting out in high school, Unhindered had no idea what God had in store for them. Ben (keyboards/vocals) and Pat (guitar/vocals) began leading dynamic worship that drew young people and adults alike into a unique experience with God. They soon met Christian (drums), J.R. (bass) and Ashley (electric guitar) and Unhindered was complete.It has truly been an answer to prayer, the group says, "We just desire for God to use us in the biggest way He can for His glory." The band continues to pursue God's call for them in writing songs and leading worship, in hopes that He will continue to lead them in their pursuit of deeper, more intimate worship of Him.

kj-52
"A white dude from the suburbs and inner city of Florida doing Christian rap and driving a minivan?" KJ says. "None of that makes sense. No one says, 'That's the formula, right there!' But at the end of the day, it just proves that God did it."
The absurdity of his situation hasn't stopped him from becoming one of the hottest rappers on the Christian hip-hop scene, as evidenced by his appearance with the massive Festival Con Dios & Winter Jam Tours, his 2004 Dove Award for Rap/Hip-hop Album of the Year (for "It's Pronounced Five-Two") and his recent 2005 Dove Award nominations for Rap/Hip Hop Recorded Song of the Year (for "Back in the Day") and Rap/Hip Hop Album of the Year (for "Soul Purpose").
"I know, it doesn't make sense," KJ smiles. "But wait 'til you hear it. Believe me, it works."

grits
GRITS have been hip-hop's best-kept secret long enough.
These "Tennessee Boys" have exploded from their underground roots to reach the ears of millions, as their music and message has been featured on several prominent national and international television programs. But just because GRITS has gained the accolades and recognition that many artists only dream of, don't think that they have lost sight of the meaning and the message behind the music. "Our lives are reflected in our music, and that's the bottom line," explains Bonafide, whose everyman affinity helps empower the lyric's spiritual themes. "That's the essence of GRITS. We just do us and keep it as real as possible, and that's why our songs are so personal." "We never put on airs once we get on stage or do interviews," adds Coffee.

Red
Passionate vocals. Gnashing guitars. A potent message.
These are the elements that make Red — both live and on their mighty debut, End of Silence—one of the most buzzed about bands to crash through the Christian rock world in recent memory.
“We’re passionate about our live show, but sometimes we get a little too excited,” says bassist Randy Armstrong. He’s just stating the facts. Or more to the point, the injury report. Head contusions. Emergency rooms. Stitches. And that was just their last tour. “Anthony swung his guitar around his body and smashed it into Michael's head causing the guitar to break and Michael to get seven stitches.”

Leeland
"Leeland is the best thing I have heard in a long, long time," says Grammy Award-winning artist Michael W. Smith. "I can't stop singing the songs in my head. Great melodies. Great band. Great voice." He isn't the only one that's hooked; Leeland's debut album has earned its own Grammy nomination. Perhaps what is most inspiring is that the man at the front of all this recognition is 17-year-old Leeland Mooring. Songwriter, guitarist, and vocalist, Leeland is truly a voice of this young generation. He's transparent in his love and gratitude to God and unflinching in his passion for reaching his generation for Christ. "So many kids are lost when it comes to having a true relationship with God, even ones who go to church," Leeland says. "Whenever we play, our main goal is to be able to minister to our generation."
Musically, the sound contains layer upon layer of emotionally majestic melodies. With Jack Mooring on the keys, Jake Holtz on bass, Austin Tirado on guitar, and Mike Smith on drums, passion resonates from every song. They may be young, but their music moves people of all ages, an amazing example of the impact that teens with God-given vision can have.

Michael Gungor Band
Having plenty of experience leading worship at Acquire The Fire and Battle Cry events, the Michael Gungor Band surely feels just as much at home on stage singing praises as they do anywhere else. But singing is just the start; Michael's guitar work is truly awe-inspiring. Add to that the flawless synergy of Lisa Gungor on keys and vocals, Michael Rossback on guitar, John Arndt on keys, David Gungor on bass, and Josh Eatmon on drums, and the result is nothing short of amazing.

falling up
Combining the intensity of modern rock and all the emotion involved in traditional praise and worship, Falling Up is here to prove their radical style is not a fleeting attempt at sticking to a trend, but a true declaration of the passion they hold for their ministry. Lead vocalist Jessy Ribordy, bassist Jeremy Miller, drummer Josh Shroy, and guitarist Joe Kisselburgh have been growing together as a band since their high school days.
"Our mission is to tell everyone who listens to our music and goes to our shows about the love we have in Christ Jesus, to show people that Christians can be real and honest," explains Ribordy. "It is to glorify God in every aspect of our lives and this band, and to show people through our lyrics, music, love, and lifestyles that there is more to life than what the world has offered us."

tye tribbett
This Camden, New Jersey native is oozing with enough raw talent to turn heads in any musical crowd. His high spirited Gospel music is frighteningly captivating with originality, depth and dynamism to spare. While gaining a fast-growing reputation as one of the hottest songwriters, musicians and directors in the business, Tye continues to show that he is truly anointed. The Spirit of God is evident in and through his music.

The afters
What started out as Josh Havens (guitar, vocals) and Matt Fuqua (guitar, vocals) entertaining coffee shop customers by playing acoustic songs has become a rising sensation with a loyal fanbase. When the duo decided to shift from acoustic to electric, they found that fellow coffee shop employees Marc Dodd (drums) and Brad Wigg (bass, vocals) had both the skills and the heart that the forming group need, and the band was complete.
"We were able to draw people in at our live performances initially through our onstage charisma. Especially Josh. He has that sort of dreamy, wistful look of innocent vulnerability while maintaining a degree of confident charm. But when you break the show down to its elements there's a great deal of variety to be found. Josh sings, I sing, Matt sings, we have pop songs, we have really dramatic rock-your-face-off songs, we have sweeping, melodic ballads. There really is something for everyone."

AYIESHA WOODS
Ayiesha Woods brings an energetic and refreshing sound to music with the polished presentation of a veteran musician. For years, she had felt a deep calling to serve God with her musical talent and to touch people with her voice. Able to not just mix styles together, Ayiesha can dish out a musical buffet of pop rock, jazzy soul, reggae, dancehall, gospel R&B, or funk. Using her talent as singer, songwriter, and pianist, Ayiesha is fully committed to using her sound to reach out to others.

canton jones
Equal parts singer, songwriter, producer, and vocal arranger – this Deerfield Beach, Florida native has entertained over 300,000 people this year alone, sold nearly 50,000 units "from the trunk," and has several songs in regular radio rotation. Canton’s unlimited repertoire, massive crowd appeal, and fast-growing fan base have set him on a course destined to challenge the very fiber of today’s music and entertainment industry. With two Grammy nods under his belt, a Stellar Award nomination, and two Gospel Choice Awards to his credit, the only thing that might take you by surprise is his unwavering humility to God and the quiet confidence of someone who knows the tide is turning his way.

sarah kelly
Grammy nominated Sarah Kelly's music is the stuff that defines artistry. The Pop/ Rock sound turns heads, lights up audiences and makes record label executives swoon. And while it's hard to pinpoint exactly what it is about this dynamic new talent that captivates people-her gutsy, honest vocal delivery or her deeply expressive music-there's no question she's poised to make her artistic mark in a very big way.
As she enters an industry plagued by a dwindling crop of female artists who write and play their own songs, Sarah's sound is bold, ambitious and refreshing. She is not all fun and games though. Her struggles with self-esteem led to a suicide attempt as a teen and she still wrestles with self-image, but now confidently sings of God's grace. When she unleashes the power and conviction behind her extraordinary vocals, you'd never know she's got any hesitation at all.

ROJO
Spanish for “Red”, Rojo is both the name and the theme for this Latin-infused pop-rock quartet, symbolizing all that the color brings to mind: Stop, Warning, Love, Fire, and most importantly, the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. Made up of Oswaldo Burruel on guitar, Emmanuel Espinosa on bass and vocals, Linda Espinosa on lead vocals, and Ruben Gonzalez on keyboards and electronics, the band pushes forward after its sweeping success in Latin America and its 2004 Latin Grammy. From catchy, bouncy tunes to rough 'n' ready rock, to contemplative worship and passionate stadium anthems, these fine musicians never cease to please.

ROCA FIRME
Born in 1998 out of the streets of South Los Angeles, this Spanish-performing band has smashed through the language barrier to reach non-Spanish speaking audiences as well as Spanish-speaking ones. The band’s appeal comes from their unique hardcore sound (a blending of thoughtful melodies and raw energy) and their dynamic stage presence. But behind the edgy musical exterior are five hearts beating for God, using the music that they love to impact people in both the Christian and secular realms. And impact they do: when OB (lead vocals), Moi (drums), Moe (bass), Bobby (guitar) and Sari (guitar) take the stage, be prepared to be drawn in to the Roca Firme experience – no matter what language you speak.

Kari Jobe
For over 13 years, Kari Jobe has been involved with worship groups that have ministered around the world. She desires to see the world changed by the reality and nearness of God's presence. Kari believes it's not enough for us to merely experience God's presence; we must also affect the lives of others and help them draw closer to God. Her passion is to see people impacted and changed by His goodness.

jesse daniels
This eighteen year old entertainment veteran is an emerging new artist who describes her own music as "rock ambience with a pop edge".
Her New York roots and family upbringing brought her up in God, but it wasn't until she attended church with a fellow Christian friend that she realized that she was missing a personal relationship with God. Soon after, she came to see that she had gained a desire to use her music for Him, encouraging Christians and non-Christians alike.

Group 1 Crew
When the conversation turns to musical influences, not many groups are likely to mention Michael Buble, Beethoven, Stevie Wonder and flamenco music in the same breath. But it’s diversity that inspires them, not to mention their unique faith backgrounds that makes new Fervent artist Group 1 Crew stand out in a crowd. If their hybrid of hip-hop, rock, funk, soul and even Spanish-language rhymes wasn’t enough to distinguish Group 1 Crew, their impassioned message of hope and encouragement can’t help but set them apart in a genre of music that typically glamorizes violence, materialism the degradation of women.
“Our music isn't for one specific demographic; it's for anyone with a pulse. There’s love in our music, and it has meaning for anyone out there. I think once people see that, they’ll get what we do.”

The AUTUMN ASHLEY BAND
The melodic rock/worship fusion that powers the sound of The Autumn Ashley Band captures the passion of a young generation. With Jordan Srock on lead guitar, Chris Trowbridge on drums, Daniel Nelson on Bass, Bethany Banks on Keys, and fronted by ATF veteran worship leader Autumn Ashley, the band’s powerful original songs compliment their fresh renditions of contemporary favorites. The resulting sound is an intimate expression of genuine praise.

Building 429
Though accolades look nice on a shelf, it’s how an artist manages its success that really matters. The members of Building 429 all agree that with success comes added responsibility – to whom much is given, much is required. Jason Roy (vocals/guitar), Scotty Beshears (bass), Michael Anderson (drums) and Jesse Garcia (guitar/keyboards), are eager to use their newfound influence to serve God fearlessly.

I agree with Ben on this issue. Paul, I am not doubting anything you have seen in youth groups but you cannot place your arbitrary labels on all of the younger generation.

I've been in Christian bookstores when their music is being played and I have to leave. Shouldn't that be enough? Their music is ugly and worldly and offensive to my ears. It does not provoke me to a deeper surrender and humilty in God; it, in fact, reminds me of my flesh-driven unregenerate life!

Yet to another person the music can be used by God to convict of sin and bring confession. To another person it can bring praise and adoration.

Paul, please remember that your preferences are not to be applied to all men when it comes to musical style.

You are not truthful, Ben. You deliberately spliced my quote in the right place to make it seem like I personally used [i]your name[/i] in that first sentence. Why did you do that? That one action has nullified your entire post and terminated our discussion.

I call every one in this forum to this matter, since it was done openly and not in private. I love Ben, and will pray for his growth.

Brother Paul

Paul, please remember that your preferences are not to be applied to all men when it comes to musical style.

Point taken. Thank you. This goes beyond preference though, and I am not inclined to debate relativism (which is where you seem to be going). The music is of the world. Period. It exalts flesh and imagery and throws "God" and "Jesus" into the mixture for good measure; it offends not only "my" ears, but the ears of other, wiser, godlier saints than you and I. I don't know of any surrendered, scripture-saturated Christian who is edified from bands like Skillet.

If you are edified, though, I am happy for you. But know that you are an exception, and that holy preachers and mighty men of God decry what you approve.

Brother Paul

One more thing, Ben... your argumentative and defensive tone on this thread is indicative of the youth "culture" the media "seeker sensitive" churhes today are producing. It's the same "we're the 'cool' culture in the church, and people who think it's worldly out-of-touch old timers who are in the way".

Krispy, Ben is not displaying a 'too cool' impression on this forum. If anything he has been honest and mild in his rebuke of the generalizations brought against the young culture in the church.

Let us all please respect each other's differences of opinion on musical style.

god cleansed me and set me free from the world and its music, why would i wanna go back? Christian rock??

don't remember who said it but- Christian rock? those two words don't go togheter... thats like Christian beer... (maybe Paul washer?)

i don't believe there will only be Wesley's hymn's in heaven, but i have a hard time imagining a Christian rock song being played and all the angels go wild...

I find it ironic that one person's passion for the Lord is another person's sin.

Where in the bible does it say that rock music is sinful! You made that decision. There are fifty fifty camps on both sides of the issue, don't let it stumble you in your faith!

Believe this, when we get to heaven, some of the remnant is going to have had tatoos and piercings and have listend to rock music... and some of your good church friends might not be there!

The bible is clear, it's not about what we put on the outside, it's about our heart!

This is a cultural issue, not a theological issue... the Christian youth culture's music is loud, and agressive, but often filled with passionate cries for God's glory! I've read threads on this same forum that lament that the church doesn't cry out for revival, well here they're crying!

Some of the most intellegent, loving, biblically upstanding people i've met have been clad in leather and grungy t-shirts. I've also met a lot of proud, arrogant and obnoxious people in traditional church settings who I'd rather not have met.

I was reaching out to an indie-rock guy recently and I considered the reception that he'd get at my church, considering that he smokes, has tatoos and plays in a secular band. I ended up not bring him when I had the chance and now he doesn't want to go to any church at all.

The fact of the matter is that our churches are turning these people away because we aren't effective cross-cultural ministers. We want them to change into 'us' before they set foot in our doors... and if by chance they do come, we expect that when they accept christ they'll give up their music and cloths too... when it was their heart that needed changing, not their boots.

I thought you were talking directly to me. Sorry if I misread what you said. I did not intentionally do anything to make it seem worse than what it appeared to be.

Let me quote the whole thing so that others can judge whether I spliced it to make it appear that way, or if it simply did appear that way.

I will put bold the words that made me think you were talking about me.

[b]Dear brother[/b], I understand [b]your[/b] culture just fine - and I tell [b]you[/b] it has no place in God's church. I understand that modern culture, and the spirit it espouses is ungodly superficial, and at utter enmity with God's holiness. [b]Your[/b] generation will reap what it sows, Ben. [b]Your[/b] abhorrence of all that is pure and lovely and humble diffuses through modern youth groups like a noxious stench. I see first-hand the covetous cliques in youth fellowships, the strutting, the vast identity crisis of not knowing who they are in Christ. The totally dependancy on music and beats to get into God's supposed presence. And I see the spirit of this culture usurping the Holy Spirit's rightful role of mentorship: instead of God, the culture influences the way kids dress, their mannerisms, etc. And I see this spirit typified in bands like Skillet.

I have since reread it, and I understand what you were trying to say. Again, I would not splice an argument to make it appear worse, plus I didn't see the period ending the sentence before. (which ends with my name right before the beginning of the word Your. It was an honest mistake.

brother, i have tattoos all over, i listened to the worst kind of music possible, i got saved...i don't wanna filth down the name of Jesus who saved my soul whit "mixing" his holy name whit "wordely" music, I'm not saying its all evil and sinful, i just think there should be a "clear" line between a child of God and a child of the devil, even in music styles, i lived in the world...i don't wanna bring it whit me not in music clothes or anything...im done whit that.

Jaysave,

You listed a lot of bands that are of the world and NOT of Christ.

Like I shared on my first post, exposing more of the motives.

Toby Mac? I've seen one of his videos and it was wicked. Toby was encouraging the crowd to chant his name louder while holding a sign with his name on it. The crowd went crazy over screaming his name. So who was really glorified? You could tell on the video that Toby was loving it, how the crowd was all over HIM. Toby is not the only one who loves the applause of men, but also many other rock and rap bands too. It does not take that much discernment to see that MOST christian bands are in it for themselves and using Jesus name for their fame. This should tear our heart apart, seeing Christ name being use for man's fame and to support their worldly lifestyle and glamorouse homes.

Sorry Paul, I've got to call you out on this:

Dear brother, I understand your culture just fine - and I tell you it has no place in God's church. I understand that modern culture, and the spirit it espouses is ungodly superficial, and at utter enmity with God's holiness. Your generation will reap what it sows, Ben. Your abhorrence of all that is pure and lovely and humble diffuses through modern youth groups like a noxious stench. I see first-hand the covetous cliques in youth fellowships, the strutting, the vast identity crisis of not knowing who they are in Christ. The totally dependancy on music and beats to get into God's supposed presence. And I see the spirit of this culture usurping the Holy Spirit's rightful role of mentorship: instead of God, the culture influences the way kids dress, their mannerisms, etc. And I see this spirit typified in bands like Skillet.

Sounds awefully like: Luke 18:11-12 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: '[b]God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.[/b]'

Even like these young christians who don't like the 'right' kind of music... who are going to hell because they don't know how to be 'humble like me.'

Funny thing is, this is how a lot of Christian rock music sounds: "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, '[b]God, have mercy on me, a sinner.[/b]'

I will post another thing about the Christian rock bands, if ya'll knew just how little money they have, and how hard a lifestyle they go through just to have a band, you might think differently about the subject. All they have to do to make money is cater to the worlds demand on lyrics. On what is and isn't allowed at shows.

Most Christian bands barely make enough money to make it to the next town to play their next show.

It is not easy, but when you talk to them, they will tell you why they do it, it is to spread the gospel.

My main concern with the current stream of "Christian" music is that much of it is void of any Scritural truth. God is relegated to a "buddy" who is always there when I fail, and failure is the norm rather than the exception. It seems that God has been humanized and given traits that while true are greatly diminished compared to who God truly is.

I do not personally agree with the "scene" of "christian rock" as it puts the artists above Christ, and exalts man above the palce he should have.

Flawed theology sung often enough begins to become truth, and thus we have many many emotionally driven youth seeking another "buzz" from a show or festival, or service. But now here is where it will get ugly, where have they learned this? Look at all the people gone before who have chased this blessing and that blessing, look at all those who make a market place of the Lord's House and Name.
Where is the example to the youth? Though they must individually give account to God, what the majority of them have been fed is a "christian subculture" that is really no different than the world, but is something one must be involved with to be a "christian". It is not much different than the Jewish culture that assumed that God would not judge them because they had the Temple, and the Law, and much pomp and ceremony, but alas they ultimately rejected Christ when He came because He was an affron to their sub-culture.

Key word in my quote is 'had.' Not to nit-pick.

It is not easy, but when you talk to them, they will tell you why they do it, it is to spread the gospel.

This is the problem. Many of them pander the Gospel as if it were a cheap thing. All the lights and smoke, and the blaring guitars, and then someone will come out and say, "do you want to accept Jesus?"

Now if I am a kid who sees these guys on stage having all the girls drooling, and fawning over them, then how would I say no?
Also many of the "appeals" are made during emotional songs, and it is a very Humanistic Gospel presented.

I may be wrong, but I see these things as doing more harm than good. Say you live in a small town and go to see one of these hip cool "christian" artists. Then you come back to your small town fellowship and realize that it's not hip and cool. What do you do?

Youth groups cater to this divisive spirit, and divide families. The idea that is presented is one of, "we get your culture, but your parents don't, their God is old fashioned, but ours is hip"

I was a youth pastor for a bit, and I did many of the things that I am talking about, then I began to see the error in all of it. We have created positions so we can have places. Show me where youth pastor is in the Bible, and where it says to seperate the family during worship.

this is all very interesting indeed...

"but keep looking unto Jesus, and reading the Word, and remembering these old paths that my daddy talked about so much, and all the other looks like trivia..." (Leonard Ravenhill -Interview with Leonard Ravenhill)

Amen.

Brothers I read things on this thread that grieves my heart, people saying that theres nothing wrong with todays culture, and that it's needful to understand the culture of today. How is that possible when His Word commands us to be wise concerning that which is good and simple (stupid, ignorant) concerning that which is evil (Romans 16:19). We can't!

Hear this, as Christians, we don't need entertainment, in fact it's true that entertainment is harmful to the Christian.

Brethren what ever happened to Christianity? Read through the book of Acts, then read it again. where do you see the Apostles putting on a show, blowing things up, and making a lot of noise to draw a crowd? you don't, because they didn't. They had something more powerful than that. They had the power of the Holy Ghost. They didn't need to use the tools of the culture of the day. Maybe you read of Paul in Corinth, drawing a crowd, He and Barnabas are putting on a play in the local theater... you won't read that, they didn't need to do that. Besides the ways of the world lead to death, we must do those things that tend toward life.

Yesterday afternoon i was so blessed. Our Church's youth group stayed after the service, we stayed all day. let me tell you what we did. We ate lunch together, afterwards we all met in the sanctuary to sing, we gathered around sitting on the steps around the platform and we sang, it was beautiful, four-part harmony... oh those blessed hymns. We were singing, oh what a time of worship. Every once in a while a brother, so moved by the singing would shout out "Hallelujah!".

After we sang for a few hours, a few of us went off to pray, our main purpose for prayer was to pray for a wandering believer, but afterward the room turned into a place of praise. It was such a blessing listening to these young men with such hearts of praise to God, with such a burden for His glory! One young sister (14 or 15 years old) went off to pray alone, she prayed for over two hours!

Our youth group ranges from the age of 14-23, and we don't see any need for entertainment. a few of the youth that have left the group for marriage are now raising up godly homes, still just so in love with Jesus.

When are the young people going to learn the Word of God? When are they going to know what it means to KNOW God!

And as for things like ATF, I will go as far as to say that they are not of God! I don't care what you or anyone else says, we need a move of God, not a lot of emotion. We need to seek God, not entertainment. this is of the world, and if anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Any one of the men of God could tell you that the music of the world is sensual, evil and devilish! And this is the kind of music that is presented at these types of events.

Krispy, in all respect to you brother, you may not have an issue with styles of music, but I do. Music in whatever form is an instrument of worship, no matter who uses it or how, it is being used to worship. No one can tell me that God doesn't care with what type of music He is worshiped. Read through the Old Testament, see what God did to those who were not qualified to worship, those who used the wrong things in worship, people whose hearts were not right in worship. What happened to them? Many of them were killed by God! Now i realize that that was Old Testament, But God does not change, He is still holy, and worthy of holy worship. How many of us govern and judge the music we listen to by how it sounds to US! how pleased WE are with it! It's time we listened to God on this matter.

Tell me, what do unbelievers and believers have in common? or what do righteousness and unrighteousness have to do with each other? can light and darkness dwell together? Of course not!

We need to take the Word of God for what it says.

I pray that God would show us His heart, that He would share His sorrows and joys with us. Oh that we would get into the heart of God! We need to stop looking to our own pleasures in order to become the pleasure of God. It is this purpose that we were created. "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Revelation 4:11

"...for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Cheap grace is the number one export of the American Church... don't blame a few muscicians for offering an alternative market for the same product.

Okay, brethren, time for me to bow out. It's amazing the pull these rock bands have on the flesh. I am glad the pictures at the beginning of the thread are there for all to see - they are worth a thousand words.

In closing, I can't help but wonder what the response would have been if I'd posted an article by Ravenhill concerning the merging of the church with popular culture. Or Keith Daniel preaching about the "ugly, devilish music" we hear at these types of ATF gatherings. Nothing is said if it comes from a renouned brother like Finney or Ravenhill or Wilkerson or Keith Daniel - but if a brother you [i]know[/i] happens to speaks it, he is thought of as a Pharisee.

God bless you all. We musn't allow this topic to alienate each other.

Brother Paul

P.S. Ben, you only needed to highlight the words "your generation" in my post, for I was speaking only of "your generation" and not of you personally. Brother, I don't know you - but I certainly know of your generation.

"Stop loving this evil world and all that it offers you, for
when you love the world, you show that you do not have
the love of the Father in you. For the world offers only
the lust for physical pleasure, the lust for everything we
see, and pride in our possessions. These are not from
the Father. They are from this evil world." 1 John 2:15-16

Go dogs, and eat the garbage!

(Charles Spurgeon, "The Soul Winner")

"So that you may become blameless and pure,
children of God without fault in a crooked and
depraved generation, in which you shine like
stars in the universe." Philippians 2:15

I believe that one reason why the church at this
present moment has so little influence over the world,
is because the world has so much influence over the
church! Nowadays, we hear professors pleading that
they may do this, and do that—that they may live like
worldlings. My sad answer to them, when they crave
this liberty is, "Do it if you dare. It may not cost you
much hurt, for you are so bad already. Your cravings
show how rotten your hearts are. If you are hungering
after such dogs food—go dogs, and eat the garbage!

Worldly amusements are fit food for pretenders and
hypocrites. If you were God's children, you would loathe
the thought of the world's evil joys. Your question would
not be, "How far may we be like the world?" but your cry
would be, "How can we get away from the world? How
can we come out of it?"

"Whatever is true,
whatever is noble,
whatever is right,
whatever is pure,
whatever is lovely,
whatever is admirable,
if anything is excellent or praiseworthy
—think about such things." Philippians 4:8

Yes, all those preachers you just mentioned do speak against 'entertainment' and 'rock music' but they also rebuke sleeping churches and hypocritical believers at least five times as much -it's like saying 'well Jesus's ministry was all about feeding people.' No it wasn't, he fed people a couple of times but that's not the whole thrust of his ministry, the same can be said for any of those speakers and should be able to be said of us as well.

I don't personally like POD, I don't like any music that I can't understand the lyrics unless it's actually in a different language.

In my car I have a couple CDs, Keith Green, Cannonball Aderly (jazz), BB King, Vivaldi, The OC Supertones and Five Iron Frenzy.

Most of the time I listen to Keith, but recently I've been listening to a lot more Five Iron Frenzy... their music is upbeat (which I need right now) and scriptural.

When I first came to Christ I hade a gotee and a trench coat and cut off shorts and boots and chains and all that stuff. I kept wearing those things and slowely shed them one by one, not because I was told to (although I was told to button up my shirt more) but because I felt led to personally. I honestly don't think wearing an of that was sinful, I think it was just part of my youth and part of the culture I was involved in. Of course I was never into drinking or doing drugs which is a big part of that culture, so for me the cloths had no connection to those activities -i did skateboard though.

Right now as I type this I'm wearing a pair of khakis, an eddie bauer sweater, and bass shoes. I don't have any bracelets or necklaces or earings or any of that on... I was never told to dress like this, I do it because it's more comfortable for me right now -that and the ministry I work for won't let me wear jeans. These cloths certainly don't make me any more Christian than when I wore my punk rock garb.

Oh boy... I dont even know how to respond to this one!

I didn't realize how bad it was until I'd read Dietrich Boenhoffer's 'The Cost of Discipleship.' If you put that alongside Paul Washer's sermon on Modern American Christianity it really grieves the Spirit... is there any hope for this country!?

I hope you all don't mind if I just simply ask a question?

But when the Scriptures say:
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice,
holy,
acceptable to God,
which is your reasonable service.
And do not be conformed to this world,
but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is tht good and acceptable and perfect will fo God." Rom 12: 1,2

How is it that there would be this movement, which has been going on for a very long time, that would consider that not just worldly dress, music and expression; but REBELLIOUS dress, music and expression would be acceptable as well?

It seems to break my heart...

Before I became born again I listened to people who were VERY rebellious, and after I was saved without thinking about it I put on a the music and it so agitated my heart I put it away never to listen to it again. After I was a Christian for awhile I listened to the "Christian radio" so I became familiar with some of the contemperary artists and purchased some of thier music and I noticed that after listening to it for awhile that I began to question things I had not formerly questioned; I began to think of things that were wearing on my soul.... I asked the Lord about it and one day as I was listening to this music and it was pointed out to me that some of it was defeating and NOT glorifying to Him, some was even rebellious which is as the sin of witchcraft. I put it away and sought out those things musically, that were more consistent with the person of Christ, more the kind "Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks...." and it made a difference.

But I have noticed that it is not just "rock" styles that have these issues, but those that the focus is the person, the man, the woman, the band, the instruments, and NOT Christ.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with listening to instrumental music, but instrumental music does not usually bill iteself as "Christian", and one must still be careful, as Watchman Nee says: "Treat all that is in this world as morphine. You may use it when necessary, but be careful as it will become addictive."

I do agree that it is not simply the music that is the issue, the churches, no, the people inside the churches need to become more pursuiant of Christ and less of the things that surround this culture and those things will change... we will become renewed in our minds and hearts....

Lori

Five Iron Frenzy is from Denver Colorado, the singer's name is Reese Roper... Leviticus? Isn't that about the tax collector? [/sarcasm]

I didn't know the swedes were into Jewish ceremonial practices...

That'd be nice, I tried really hard to get those healing ones to die, but i guess thats the nature of healing ~_~
I'm sure that someone is going to come back and respond to one of the prior posts and this'll all start up again, and some other members will join in and make the exact same arguements without having read all the prior posts (just like on the healing threads).

Oh man...what comes to my mind is a dancing cow on stage. :-)

I admit, I’m probably older than most of you here – 53 and moving on… I’m primarily a classical musician, and don’t listen to Gaither. And, my goodness, I even play hymns.

Still, in this thread I feel like I need to defend the younger ones - not because I condone all their wild music, but because I see that the reason for their values and choices lies smack-dab in MY generation. We, the older generation, have modeled for them a value that they are now living out. Sure, we made choices that (in our views) looked nice and refined, and even Christian-like. But a great deal of our cultural/religious habits were quite self-indulgent. So, I ask, do we really have a right to point so many fingers at our youth without considering our own responsibility in the process? Why should we expect something from our youth that we haven’t been able to maintain or model ourselves. Isn’t that a bit hypocritical?

If we want the youth to love the Lord, of course we don’t have to, and shouldn’t join their culture. But surely we can present them something far better than our opinions about their music. In fact, our verbalized opinions, especially if they are condescending, typically does little to make them more sympathetic to our point of view. It tends to drive them the other way – into their own culture. We merely put them on the defensive. You end up with two sides each zealously defending the rightness of their position. That is a dead end!

Is that really our aim? I don’t think so.
I hope that we, the older generation, have something better to offer.

Diane

no bars.

Thats the enemies territory, and if any Christian musicians are willful enough to think they can march into a BAR, and "conquer" territory from the enemy, a bar that serves liquors, they best seek some pastoral mentoring.

it would be foolish.

same thing with the mohawks, tatoos, etc.....lets say you got all that stuff when you come to walk with the Lord...sooner of later, the Holy Spirit is going to speak with you on such matters...and i don't mean that one has to suddenly don a suit, but I think that a lot of that stuff is just screaming LOOK AT ME!! when the heartcry should be LOOK AT JESUS!!

bars?

hellish, absolutely hellish.

neil

uh... brother...

right on. ;-)

Bartle,

So, we are religouse because we care about God's name being defile? or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

we are not talking about the lost, but those who profess to be christians, but their lifestyle does not align with the word. It is not being critical, but watchful, warning others to stay away from such.

Quote:

the religious establishment of the day in 1st century Israel didnt have favorable things to say about Messiah Jesus, did they?

And todays religouse are the same. The pharisees today are the ones who despise the cross and despise those who exort others to bear the cross. who may look clean outwardly, but are filthy inside, still full of lust, greed, ect..

Yes, I'm with you on that, stay away from the religous who do not care to be delivered from sin and rest in Jesus, but are full of deadworks and vain glory. The pharisees despise Jesus because He was getting the glory and not them. The pharisees love the applause of men and to be adored by men thats for sure!

Diane, I agree with you. It is many leaders that have given the kids what they WANT, to lure them into their church, only concern about numbers and not making true disciples.

Its like parents who spoil their kids hoping they would get along better, but come to find out later the kids turn on them and became very rebellouse because their was no discipline.

Yeah, my heart goes out to the younger kids who are being fed with lies, being deceived by those who will not take up the cross.

Wow. 8 Pages in less than 7 hours?!?!

Jordan

By the way, being from San Antonio, and being 17, an old lady at church mailed me the info about this. I suspected it was on the 'desk' where all the papers for the... whatever you call them, are (I didn't go to church that Sunday). It seemed quite ridiculous.

Jordan

Brethren, I told myself I wouldn't post on this thread anymore, but seeing that the disputatious tenor has somewhat abated, I thought it proper to come back on and clarify a few things.

First and foremost, in no way was it my intention to castigate anyone here on this forum for their musical tastes. Though I disdain worldly music styles, I am not so ignorant as to believe God cannot and does not use these bands to reach lost kids. It's not so much the style of the music - or even the image the musicians project - as it is the [i]spirit[/i] behind it all. I know I've made some acerbic statements here that could be construed as "uncharitable", but this is only because I have for years and years witnessed the "fruit" of the spirit behind these types of festivities. I see the outer display of zeal and christian t-shirts and extreme, flourescent Bible-covers (and none of these things are bad), but I also see the radical individualism, the insatiable need to be amused and entertained, computer games, x-box, iPods blaring deafening music, the clothes worn to accentuate certain body curves. This so grieves me...and it grieves God. It is all of another spirit - an invisible, familiar spirit which has infiltrated our churches, exacting such profound influence over our youth that it seems to replicate like virions in a host cell, injecting false spiritual DNA to make zombie organisms. So many, so many of our youth are not even saved with a genuine born-again experience - and yet these "fire" rallies are prompting them make emotional decisions designed to usher them straight into world missions?

Do you have any idea how dangerous this is? How destructive? How ludicrous? It is a devastating thing to see a kid enslaved to media and entertainment and yet desiring to go to Africa and save people because they think they received the "fire" at a Kutlass concert. Then the soulish high wears off and they're smashed into a million pieces, distraught and disinfranchised by their ineptitude, eventually fading into the darkness and glumly resigning to some community college to study art or journalism.

Is this phenonmenon the result of bands like Skillet and ATF? No, of course not, not exclusively, but the encouragement is there by virtue of the profane fire and unholy atmospheres they espouse. I enjoin you to go back and look, just look long and hard and thoughtfully and prayerfully at the pictures I posted at the beginning of this thread. Ask God the Holy Spirit about them. I challenge you to empty yourself of all presuppositions and approach those pictures neutrally. Listen to Keith Daniel preach and then go look at those pictures, if you still dare.

If you still can't see the usurper, I don't know what else to say.

Brother Paul

[image][img]http://www.jtf.org/america/ccc.black.crime.ja.rule.friend.small.jpg[/img]

Neil, what you see are not "peace" signs (certainly not [i]God's[/i] peace) - they are gang signs. Any inner city fourteen year-old can tell you that. These are the same men that were praising God and singing worship songs moments before (well, not THESE guys. The guys above are real gangsta thugs).

And I love these guys. I would in an instant put my arm around them and share God's offer of free pardon. It's the ones that are suposedly saved, that are imparting some kind of strange "fire" to my teenager that I'm worried about. These I will unhesitatingly stand up against and cry wolf.

p.s. Enjoy the venison. I've still got about two pounds of breakfast pan-sausage from an 8 pointer we tagged back in December.

PaulWest wrote:
Neil, what you see are not "peace" signs (certainly not [i]God's[/i] peace) - they are gang signs. Any inner city fourteen year-old can tell you that. These are the same men that were praising God and singing worship songs moments before (well, not THESE guys. The guys above are real gangsta thugs).

And I love these guys. I would in an instant put my arm around them and share God's offer of free pardon. It's the ones that are suposedly saved, that are imparting some kind of strange "fire" to my teenager that I'm worried about. These I will unhesitatingly stand up against and cry wolf.

p.s. Enjoy the venison. I've still got about two pounds of breakfast pan-sausage from an 8 pointer we tagged back in December.

First off let me say I have no pleasure in much of any of the modern "christian" music. I'm 22, but I just don't like the feelings/emotions that go through my body when I hear heavy music. Maybe it was because I remember what I use to do with that type of music in the background... anyways..

I do want to point out that the "hand signs" are not the same in the last photo you posted as with the other one. If you notice "Ja-rule" in the last photo has his pinky (small) finger pointing out. If I remember correctly, from my former days, "ja-rule" is giving a sign that means "east coast" or "east side."

If you notice "Ja-rule" in the last photo has his pinky (small) finger pointing out.

:-P Okay, thanks for [i]pointing[/i] that out.

And who is the world is [i]Ja-rule[/i], pray tell? The guy in the little picture, or one of the three guys from the other picture? I guess I should be asking my little cousin - he goes to public school. He probably knows what most all these hand signals mean. There was a rap video shown a few months back - some Rick warren 2006 Conference video with a rapper named "Smitty" who was throwing around all sorts of gangster signs and messages with his fingers. Does anyone remember that?

Brother Paul

Let's just back up here. I'm gonna bring some Spiritual Authority into the fold.

Brother Andrew talks about this specifically in his book, 'Light Force.' He talks about the fact that there are divisions, not just among denominations, but also within denominations over things like worship music, or praise music.

Brother Andrew is getting along in his years... his observation? He said that the youth were generally more likely to give ground on this issue than the adults... that he saw more maturity among the young than the old. It's a total shame, but I can see it here right now.

Those kids are flashing gang signs, well guess what, that's not against Christianity, that's part of the urban youth culture. That's like telling a southerner not to like fried chicken!

Most african american kids will flash signs even though most of them aren't in gangs... it's part of how they identify themselves. Is there anything in the bible that says that you can't make a sign with your hands to tell people which coast you live on? You're telling a person he's a sinner for something he's not sinning.

Let's get this straight, fraternities and sororities are gangs by the definition that most african americans use to define gangs. The ELKS club is a gang by most definitions as well... some of our churches are even gangs.

[b]We may find that Jesus would be more comfortable hanging out with gang-members than with our khaki clad congregation[/b].

God needs cross-cultural missionaries! You're never going to reach out to someone by telling them they have to stop being black to be a Christian. You're never going to get anywhere by telling someone that their culture at home is incompatible with Christianity when our own culture is as equally far away from biblical Christianity.

Bartle, slow down.

I found the picture of two [i]real[/i] guys doing gangster signs to line them up against the picture from ATF so you could see what the real deal looks like and compare. To show you they were not "peace" symbols. I didn't even look at the website I found them on. I simply did an image seach on hand signs, because I have seen kids do them before and knew the affiliation.

This is so sad.

Bartle, I forgive you. You don't understand what you've said, or what you've accused me of.

I can only shake my head in amazement.

I'm through with this post, and I am through discussing this with you. This whole spirit is poisonous, and you are in the flesh. You've attacked me for the last time here.

[url=http://www.asianstudentkoinonia.org/wp-content/themes/blix/images/spring_flavour/header_images/header3.jpg] Picture of Christian student group.[/url]

Dude, some girl from my church's campus ministry is flashing a gang sign... and that Japanese guy isn't smiling, he must be a gang member too!

Brother, Greg kindly told me he doesn't want us posting pictures in the forums. He'd rather us link them.

Neil, like I said, all I was doing was comparing what [i]real[/i] gangsters' hand signals look like with the ones from the guys on ATF. It just so happened that I found the real ones on that particular website while doing an [i]image search[/i]. I really fail to see what has made you so angry. Why are you spitting poison at me and calling me a deceiver? What have I done to you?

You insult me. You slander my integrity. You bring false accusations against me. You call me a deceiver. Almost [i]700[/i] Christ-edifying posts to my credit on SI, and you suddenly and openly accuse me of being a crooked serpent before thousands of people? Do you really think I would post a different picture and then try to foist it off as the orginal, knowing that well over [b]1,200 people saw the first picture?[/b] Including [i]yourself[/i]? Is this the credit you give me? Could you not have come to me privately in a PM if you doubted my integrity? Have I ever given you or anyone else in these forums reason to doubt my integrity? You accuse me of editing my post, and this I did - when I realized there might be confusion between the two different pictures. You hadn't even posted a reply yet!

Neil, you have attacked me for the last time. I love you, forgive you, but I will not allow this to go on. You have serious issues that only God can fix. I am here for you, always, and I love you, bless you, and pray God's very best over you and your family, but I am concerned for you, and I do not say this lightly. Others have noticed also. Please seek help.

My God have mercy and heal your deep and complicated hurts.

Brother Paul West

I'm not sure about this... but are we supposed to judge others? Are we supposed to judge them on their appearance? Do we even know what fruits these three young men have in their lives.

I remember Leonard Ravenhill once saying, 'The way that we know that we are being sanctified, we are easy to live with.' These three guys look like they'd be a lot of fun to live with... maybe not all smiles, but I bet we'd have a lot more genuine fellowship than I might have with some of the other saints on this forum.

Bartle, You make it sound that I was coming at you and attacking you. I just ask a question. Was not clear who you were talking too. You insinuated in one of your post that people are being religous. I just wanted you to be clear about it instead of making indirect comments. Was that comment for those who post agaist christian music or someone else? I was thinking it was for someone under this topic since the comment was display here.

People who despise the cross are not just the lost, but also professing christians, wich I guess their lost too. There are many preachers today who will not preach on the cross, thinking it is negative because its about dying to self, like the emergent church and prosperity preachers.

go easy on me sister, I wasnt pointing no finger at you, if your heart goes out to those kids, then go out and do something to make them envious of so great a salvation.

I was expressing my heart to Diane when I shared how my heart goes out to the kids. How is that pointing the finger at you? Maybe, you need to reread my post. And your comment made it sound because I was expressing my concern that I'm not doing anything about it.

written in Jesus love to you, neil

Bartle, I have to say I really don't sense much of your writings to me, not just in this post, but others also being in Jesus love. It just seems that you try to hide your bitter comments by false love by saying "in Jesus love".

I'm not sure about this... but are we supposed to judge others? Are we supposed to judge them on their appearance? Do we even know what fruits these three young men have in their lives.

I remember Leonard Ravenhill once saying, 'The way that we know that we are being sanctified, we are easy to live with.' These three guys look like they'd be a lot of fun to live with... maybe not all smiles, but I bet we'd have a lot more genuine fellowship than I might have with some of the other saints on this forum.

. Paul, maybe by trying to strengthen your point with a comparison of two completely cultures was not a good idea

No, it probably wasn't. The question was asked about the hand signals in the ATF picture, and rather than repost the first picture, I thought to find an authentic ganster picture with identical gestures so people could see for themselves and judge the similarities. It sounded pretty clever in the making...but obviously it didn't work out quite the way I expected! :-)

I am happy that you understood the contrasts. But I agree with you - it wasn't a good idea. This is what happens when I try to be suave and sophisticated with my illustrations! Happy birthday by the way! 30. My wife turns 30 in May. She's dreading it. As for me - been there, done that. Almost 7 years ago.

God bless you, Brian, and thanks for your support.

Brother Paul

Read whole thread, skimmed most of it. Seems like 80% of this whole thread is based on Christian Rock... or youth culture, whatever.

Anyhow, I'd like to just give my 2 cents quickly on it all..

I don't like Christian rock music. If you do, that's fine. (Although I will not approve of it, or agree that it is glorifying God.) Not my cup of tea. Maybe yours. And if so, maybe we can share teas and then I can explain to you why I think my tea is preferrable... ;-]

Then, the v-sign or whatever.. weird argument about that. K, their "urban youth"-- whatever you wanna call 'em. They live in a culture completely different than ours. Their language is somewhat different too. Look at it that way and you won't have a problem. Their just people like you and me. Some of 'em love Jesus too. They also tend to like rap music. So what? I don't like it, but that's their business if they like it, I'm not gonna sit over with a Bible thumpin on their head telling them rap music is going to send them to Hell, I'm going to just be Jesus to them.

People got this holier-than-thou attitude about a lot of stuff! This thread is complex, I can't dissect it all. Don't want to. Peace!

PS: Good idea Neil, about the campin' thing. I wish youth groups would do that! Or even people by themselves. Going out to the "desert," away from our 'things' that distract us-- and just being alone with God, is needed.

Edit: I just saw a YouTube video of Skillet in concert an Acquire the Fire event, it's a 90 second glimpse, all I needed. I was shocked, I didn't ever hear them before, but it was basically a few things: LOUD music, Lots of smoke, Lots lights, Lots of NOISE. I did not like it one bit.

Jordan

You won't hear this one on the radio, and you won't hear this in church either...

[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=qR8AR3heu-w]Brave Saint Saturn - Under Bridges {youtube -music only) [/url]

Yesterday while walking
Beneath an overpass
I saw the figure of Jesus
Standing barefoot on broken glass

His beard was graying
Smell of urine filled the air
Asking if I had some change
Anything that I could spare

Emaciated
His shaking fist balled up
Influenza and pneumonia
Begging God to take his cup

So different from his pictures
Breathing air through yellowed tubes
Jesus Christ, dying of AIDS
Can look right through you

And all have hated
Crucified and walked away
Savior of the prostitutes
Drunkards, rapists, and the gays

Under Bridges,
With hands raised
From the ghettos
They praise His name

Broken, crippled
In the dark of night
Raise your voices
To Jesus Christ

Hallelujah

I don't know too much about Acquire the Fire. I don't know if they are worldly or not. At first glance I think they might be. However, if such is the case, they are not much more different than your typical Southern Gospel quartet. Especially of the Bill Gaither variety. Now if you want to see some worldly Christian singers, tune in for your Gaither Homecoming Classics sometime. Oh, their worldliness is not as overt, because they aren't dressed like a punk band. But the level of showmanship put into each performance is just the same, even if less flashy wearing a 2 or 3 piece suit. It's amazing how Christian our discernment really is.

Another sermon you won't hear in many churches... because it has to do with [i]pride and mammon[/i] both of which the American Church tends to turn it's back to.

[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hnip7DSP2Rw]OC Supertones - Little Man {youtube video}[/url]

Keep both my eyes transfixed on the prize
A high-rise to the blue skies my piece of the pie
There's a hole in my heart that I know how to fill
That's to light my cigarettes with a hundred dollar bill
It's all about cash flow the California dream
To make the grade you gotta make the green
My friend I'm the champion I've no time for losers
Never ask for nothin 'cause beggars can't be choosers

Lookin' our for number ones's a full time occupation
I'll give to me myself and I my own salvation
Some people try to tell me God can save me from my sin
But God can take a number and I'll pencil Him in
Busy oh so busy I got no time to search
My Sunday's are all booked I've got no time for church
That's for those poor souls, dry as a stone
God bless this child 'cause this child's got His own.

[b]Oh, let my pride fall down I'm a little man
Oh, let my pride fall down I'm a little man[/b]

He who gets the most toys and dies is the winner
I'm livin' the high life with lobster tail dinners
My Lexus, my yacht, my gold chains and rings
These are a few of my favorite things
But most of all I keep my billfold the closest to my heart
House decorated with million dollar works of art
Roll with the Bigwigs they think I'm the man
But then I stop and look and think about how big I really am

[b]Mammon is an unforgiving God, I cast him away
I live my life to God, not to get paid
Money can't save your soul, don't think I can
I look to God and I feel like a little man[/b].

This thread will be locked.