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Amazing Grace - William Wilberforce / John Newton movie. (released 02/23/07)

I
iansmith

Just thought I'd mention that a wonderful movie was released this last Saturday that would be worth everyone seeing. Amazing Grace.

The movie is primarily about William Wilberforce, who after a dramatic conversion to Jesus Christ decided to leave his life in politics... only to be challenged to remain in politics by his spiritual mentor John Newton (who happened to write the hymn Amazing Grace years earlier after his conversion).

William Wilberforce went on to be the primary human mover behind the abolition of slavery in the British Empire. It was because of his devotion to the teachings of Jesus and his personal relationship with the savior.

William Wilberforce is also the namesake of Chuck Colson's prison ministry: Wilberforce.

The website for the movie:
http://www.amazinggracemovie.com/

A bio of William Wilberforce at the Wilberforce Prison Ministry website:
http://www.wilberforce.org/Bio.asp?ID=1016

Has anyone seen the movie yet?

T
tjservant

Just thought I'd mention that a wonderful movie was released this last Saturday that would be worth everyone seeing.

Glad you posted this iansmith. Maybe I can spare you the heartache. I have not seen this movie, but have talked with several people who have.

It has fifteen profanities and very immodest dress in it. The trailer I viewed even had cursing in it. I should have to be married to a woman to get as much information as I do about the woman in the trailer I watched.

Wilberforce was a great man, and a Christian, but this movie is just another way Hollywood, or the devil, is trying to get Christians to compromise.

This movie is about good beating evil. Moral people do that all the time. It is not exclusive to Christianity. Kind of like Stallone saying Rocky is a Christian movie.

I want to see one that mentions repentance of sin, acceptance of Christ as Lord, and pursuit of Holiness.

I guess that’s why I don’t see many movies.

My 2 cents.

TJ

S
sermonindex

Does this movie clearly show that he was a follower of Jesus Christ? Or does it kinda gloss over it like so many Hollywood biographical movies do?

Krispy

T
tjservant

Does this movie clearly show that he was a follower of Jesus Christ?

I'm not sure. I was so bent out of shape by the trailer I didn't ask any more questions.

One thing that really gets me is the fact they include the language and dress because they say it adds to the realism.

The Bible does a good job without that kind of language and pictures in it.

I wonder if Hollywood would accept The Bible if it had…I can’t even say it. Oh well.

TJ

I
iansmith

[b]Evangelicals rally around — and disagree on — 'Grace'[/b]
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-02-21-amazing-grace-movie_x.htm

Krispy,

It looks like you were right, USAtoday says that the name Jesus is never overtly mentioned... and that they purposefully toned down William Wilberforce's evangelistic fervor to appeal to a broader audience.

But this is an opportunity to show the world that a man with Faith in God can shake the foundations of society. Hopefully it will cause people to seek the source of William Wilberforce's strength and find out more about the Savior behind the man.

If I had a choice whether or not to have this movie with the toned down refernces to his spiritual life, or not to have the movie at all... I'd still take the movie, because it's a chance to open doors to people who wouldn't otherwise go to a church.

S
sermonindex

Here is a movie review on it: [url=http://www.radiotheatre.org/products/amazinggrace/]Pluggedinonline[/url]
I tend to agree with TJ on this one. The profanity knocks it out for me.

Here is another alternative to getting the story:
[url=http://www.radiotheatre.org/products/amazinggrace/]Radio Theatre presents Amazing Grace[/url]. I've heard bits and pieces on the radio from this dramatization and it sounds really good. Our library is supposed to be getting it in so I am looking forward to to listening to the story. :-)

I
iansmith

The way that Brits talk nowadays I'm amazed it didn't get an R rating.

It's a PG movie, all of the profanity in the movie was probably what was in the trailer.

B
BenBrockway


Roniya wrote:

Here is another alternative to getting the story:
[url=http://www.radiotheatre.org/products/amazinggrace/]Radio Theatre presents Amazing Grace[/url]. I've heard bits and pieces on the radio from this dramatization and it sounds really good. Our library is supposed to be getting it in so I am looking forward to to listening to the story. :-)

Yes, this is a great alternative. I happen to work at Focus On The Family, and took the opportunity to listen to it on my drive to CA last week. It is really good!

S
sermonindex

The way that Brits talk nowadays I'm amazed it didn't get an R rating.

Whats an R rating and whats wrong with the way we talk? One is not ammused ;-)

I
iansmith

R means 'restricted,' those under 18 cannot (or aren't supposed to) see it without being accompanied by an adult.

I was just implying the the Brits in general use a lot more profanity -however this is just my impression based on the Englishmen I've known and the way they're portrayed in the media.

I guess I've been overgeneralizing for the sake of humor.

S
sermonindex

It's a PG movie, all of the profanity in the movie was probably what was in the trailer.

How much profanity is ok for the child of God to pay God's money to hear?

Krispy

I
iansmith

Krispy,

I understand your heart in this matter, but I want to ask you honestly -have you avoided all movies with all profanity or are you just putting your foot down now?

R
roaringlamb

I saw the movie just this week, and thought it was good. I didn't really hear much swearing.

It is not a "Christian" movie as the Gospel is not preached throughout, but there are some interesting quotes and scenes.

One in particular is when John Newton says to Wilberforce, "I am a great sinner, and Christ is a great Saviour." There is also an interesting scene where the camers zooms in and does a close up of the title page of "The Rise and Progress of Religion in the Soul" by Philip Doddridge, which is an excellent book.

There is a sense of the struggle though within Wilberforce's life that many of us go through as well. He wants to quit everything "secular", and serve God alone and this plays out in different ways as well.

Overall I would say if your conscience is troubled by wanting to see it, then do not go. If you are at liberty to go then go, and maybe it will kick off some conversations about why a man would do such a thing.

S
sermonindex

Instead of picking through this movie with a fine tooth comb finding every fault possible (which i have no doubts there are many faults), let me look on the more positive side for a moment.
It is my hope that this movie will bring many to study the lives of these men mightly used by God who have gone before us. May many pick up the works of men like Wilberforce, Newton and so on and study thier lives through numerous biographies written. Here is an quote from John Piper taken from the life of Charles Simeon titled [url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Biographies/1460_Brothers_We_Must_Not_Mind_a_Little_Suffering/]Brothers, We Must Not Mind A Little Suffering'.[/url]

[i]We see very few models today whose lives spell out in flesh and blood the rugged words, "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you fall into various trials" (James 1:3). When historians list the character traits of the last third of twentieth century America, commitment, constancy, tenacity, endurance, patience, resolve and perseverance will not be on the list. The list will begin with an all-consuming interest in self-esteem. It will be followed by the subheadings of self-assertiveness, and self-enhancement, and self-realization. And if you think that you are not at all a child of your times just test yourself to see how you respond in the ministry when people reject your ideas.

We need help here. When you are surrounded by a society of emotionally fragile quitters, and when you see a good bit of this ethos in yourself, you need to spend time with people – whether dead of alive – whose lives prove there is another way to live. Scripture says, "Be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises" (Hebrews 6:12).[/i]

S
sermonindex

I tend to agree with TJ on this one. The profanity knocks it out for me.

Personally my belief is why worry about it. It's the world that made it and it should be the world that watches it. I personally cannot get excited over worldly hollywood movies anymore, I praise God He has taken that away from me. It excites me much more to get into a prayer meeting for 3 hours or worshipping God.

We don't need to cling to this movie as a hope of God reaching the world with the gospel, we need to stand and give testimony ourselves. We are a much better testimony with the power of God then any hollywood movie no matter how many "millions" they put into it.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hello...

I watched the film on the advice of a close friend of my fiance.

When we went to the theater, we were surprised that it was obviously filled with quite a few Christians from a wide variety of denominations. There were pentecostals, Assembly of God, Baptists, Methodists, Nazarenes, non-denominational evangelicals, non-denominational charismatics, non-denominational pentecostals, etc... There were even a few apparent Mennonites. Most of them appeared quite awkward, as you could tell that they were "out of their element."

The film was actually well made. It tells the story of a relatively unknown but remarkable individual from history. William Wilberforce was central in the abolition of the slave trade in the United Kingdom. As a wealthy young politician, William Wilberforce was one of the most notable evangelicals of his time. While the film does not reveal some of the more evangelical zeal or beliefs of William Wilberforce, it doesn't hide his faith in God either. And yes, the film does mention the name of Jesus.

The film begins by showing the toll that the 15 year struggle against slavery took on William Wilberforce. Both his health and demeanor were obviously affected. He was a bright young figure in the UK's political scene. The movie then shows the journey that took him to this point in his life. He was converted after college and after he was already involved in Parliament. We also learn that he had faith while still a child, Wilberforce regressed during his adolescent years.

While the film didn't show his actual conversion, we understood that it took place shortly after obtaining a position in Parliament. We see that Wilberforce would remove himself into his property in order to find a lonely place for prayer. He would lay down in the wet England grass and speak aloud to God. The film shows that his butler finds him doing this, and he begins to share his thoughts to the butler.

We learn that one of his best friends from college (William Pitt) is going to become Prime Minister. Pitt recognizes Wilberforce's witt, talent and understanding of the political structure, and he desperately wants Wilberforce to support his cabinet. However, Wilberforce is considering "dropping out" of politics in order to focus his life on preaching the Gospel.

Finally, Pitt invites a group of ministers to a dinner held at the Wilberforce home. Wilberfoce reveals his dilemma. He has been undergoing an intense inner-struggle. He wants to choose between a life of ministry and a work in politics. These men convince Wilberforce that he can do BOTH. They remind him that he can use his abilities and position in Parliament to fight against certain sins and unjust activities (such as slavery). Finally, Wilberforce agrees.

The film shows that young William Wilberforce was a dear friend of John Newton, the former slave trader that became a minister. Newton, of course, wrote the lyrics of [i]Amazing Grace[/i]. The film portrays the strong conviction that Newton felt for his role in barbarically transporting 20,000 slaves. History tells us that Newton continued participating in the slave trade for a few years following his conversion (even though he was morally and spiritually opposed to it). The film shows that, as an older man, he held deep sorrow for this. He encourages Wilberforce to "sink the ships of the wealthy slave traders" by his participation in Parliament. As he grew old and blind, John Newton dictated his intensive knowledge of the slave trade as a testimony to help in Wilberforce's work.

The film does show Wilberforce's late courtship and marriage to Barbara Ann Spooner. Wilberforce was in his late 30s, and Miss Spooner was an encouragement to continue his fight against slavery. As someone noted, the clothing that Miss Spooner wore in the film was somewhat revealing (at least in one scene, because of a low cut top). I'm not certain how "authentic" her dress was, but I imagine that it was reflective of the times. However, I certainly doubt that a woman would have worn such a dress in front of a very zealous evangelical Methodist!

The film concludes by showing Wilberforce's strategy in ending the slave trade. Instead of attacking the practice -- he laid the "axe to the root" of the problem. He keenly cut off legal protection for ships flying the British flag into the West Indies. This cut off about 80% of the slave trade. Shortly thereafter in 1807, Parliament ended the slave trade by a vote of 41-20 in the House of Lords and 283-16 in the House of Commons. This is remarkable in that it was nearly 60 years before slavery became illegal in the United States! The British became the first world power to outlaw slavery (even though Scotland had outlawed it a few decades earlier).

As far as the use of profanity, I believe that there were two instances. None were used by believers in the film, and since one of them was British in nature, my fiance didn't even recognize the word. Yes, it was disappointing to have heard a film using profanity. However, I might point out to the critics on this website that [i]The Cross and the Switchblade[/i] uses two clear instances of profanity as well (including the same word). Yes, use of profanity is quite sad and a display of an unclean mouth. But so is the pretentious backbiting, gossip and slander that is sometimes seen in these forums. I'm not "defending" the use of profanity (by no means!), but I simply want to display the hypocrisy of pointing out a "mote" while neglecting the "beam." If someone has the audacity to watch a football game (and commercials) on Sunday afternoons ("paying" for it with their time, energy and devotion) and then criticize a film such as this -- then they might want to inspect themselves for "beams." In my opinion, this film was far less blatant than Sunday afternoon football -- or even many "Christian" books.

I admit that I liked the film. However, I must stress that I was not [i]entertained[/i] by it. I found that it was simply a "moving historical text." There are a great many people (particularly Americans) who have never heard of William Wilberforce and his contributions against slavery and animal cruelty, as well as toward free education and church missions. It was nice to see a secular film display evangelicals in a good light -- and particularly the contributions that a believer made against a moral evil. The world seems to have lost the knowledge that morality has historically been shaped by God's Word. So I would approach this film from an educational aspect rather than through an evangelical approach.

:-)

I
iansmith

ccchhhrrriiisss,

Great post, I had already planned on going and seeing it but now I definitely want to see it!

S
sermonindex

I understand your heart in this matter, but I want to ask you honestly -have you avoided all movies with all profanity or are you just putting your foot down now?

Our walk with Christ is an ever growing process, and the honest answer is that over the last year God has really been convicting me of things like what we are talking about here. I dropped movies with the "s" word and the "f" word a long time ago, and movies that spit on Christ by using His name as a cuss word.

But over the last year he has been convicting me about even "mild" profanity, and the fact that we use the money He has blessed us and provided us with in order to expose ourselves to it.

Until the day I die I pray He continually reveals my sin to me. Thank the Lord He doesn't drop it all on us at one time. We couldn't handle it. But He is long suffering... and He takes His time with us. He is faithful to complete the good work He has started in us.

But it doesn't matter if He has convicted [b]ME[/b] of this in the last 12 months, or 12 years ago... the truth of the matter is still the same. How much profanity is too much for us to spend God's money to hear?

Krispy

V
vico

In the light of eternity... things like that don't hold much weight with me. I sat down the other night and watched a movie for the first time in 2 and a half years. even though it was "Christian Movie" I was still disappointed, and later i wished i hadn't (i didn't want to in the first place, but i watched it to avoid division and conflict.).

I like what Greg said: "It's the world that made it and it should be the world that watches it."

[ edit ]
Amen Krispy, your words... they make me smile :-)

S
sermonindex

If you are at liberty to go then go

Even if your "liberty" is in disobedience to scripture?

Eze 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the [b]holy and profane[/b], and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, [b]filthy communication out of your mouth[/b].

2Ti 2:16 But shun [b]profane[/b] and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding [b]profane[/b] and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called...

1Ti 4:7 But refuse [b]profane[/b] and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, [b]think on these things[/b].

You can not avoid hearing profanity in this world... but you sure dont have to pay to hear it... with the money God has given you.

Krispy

R
roaringlamb

Let us pause for a moment here, and ask oursleves this question.

In our day to day lives do we hear profanity? Unless you live under a rock then the answer is probably yes.

How do you respond? Do we hold our robes of "righteousness" tight to ourself and pass by the "heathen", or do we lovingly and truthfully correct them? That is being salt and light.

Do you know what happened as a result of seeing this film? My friend's daughter who is half black and half white realized perhaps more deeply the length to which God would go to save, and also how God raises up people to take on issues of injustice.(I cannot even believe I am writing this right now, as I would probbably been the first to jump down some peoples' throats for sseing it before) Don't think I back the "social gospel" either, this is just a point I am making.

But come on, this is not a black and white essential issue. Will a person be lost if they see this? I doubt it, but could a Sovereign God use this to draw someone to His Son? Maybe

I'm not defending it or saying it's the best thing in the world, but just saying exercise caution in bombarding folks with your convictions, and let Christ alone convict people as to how they should live so it will be a Spiritual surrender, and not a fleshly one that ends up in misery and defeat.

Ok, let loose the rocks :-P

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Krispy...

I am not trying to be contentious, but are you referring to some of the conversations in the forums, televised sporting events (including commercials), or this film biography called [i]Amazing Grace[/i]?

I wouldn't encourage anyone to watch a movie (not even a christian one). However, I personally found this film educational. It was a biography set on film -- just like David Wilkerson's [i]The Cross and the Switchblade[/i]. Both of these works contained the same sad reference of a certain curse word. Yet both told the story of some remarkable men of God.

I want to stress that this is NOT a Christian film (if there is such a thing). It is a historical film depicting the 18th Century evangelical minister/politician who led the fight against slavery. In this sense, it was similar to reading an account in a textbook, encyclopedia or newspaper (or television documentary).

The only regret that I had in this film was the use of the aforementioned profanities and the elaborate dress worn by a woman (even though it was far more "modest" than outfits seen in college, public schools or even some churches). I must also emphasize that this film was not [u]entertaining[/u]. Rather, it was seemingly meant to [u]educate[/u] individuals about a couple of historical figures (William Wilberforce and John Newton) that most people have never heard of.

:-)

S
sermonindex

[b]Roaringlamb[/b]... you have conveniently missed my point. If you would be so kind as to read the entirety of my last post perhaps the point would not escape you.

If you need further assistance, let me know... I'l type slower so you can understand me better. :-)

Krispy

S
sermonindex

I am not trying to be contentious, but are you referring to some of the conversations in the forums, televised sporting events (including commercials), or this film biography called Amazing Grace?

Forgive me for taking this as being contentious. Perhaps you, as well, have ignored what I have written on this thread. Especially part about being in a process, as we all are. And yes, for me, at this point God is convicting me of sporting events on TV, etc. Not just Amazing Grace. But thanx for pointing out my struggle with hypocricy as justification for others to do as they please.

Do we only listen to preachers who have reached perfection? If so, remove all the Epistles that Paul wrote... he struggled with his flesh.

Listen... the long and the short of it is this... I will not be losing any sleep if my brethren on this forum see Amazing Grace. All I am doing is sharing God's Word with everyone so that we can all consider what [b]He[/b] thinks about it. No one has addressed the passages I have listed here. Just opinions on why it's ok to see movies with "mild profanity" in them.

I'm not God, and I answer for no one other than myself before God. But being that I care for everyone here, it is my duty to share God's Word concerning this issue of [b]paying[/b] (emphasis for [b]Roaringlamb[/b]) to hear profanity.

Krispy

R
roaringlamb

Ok, I will read it all, but for now I have to go to the doctor, so I'll get back to it.

Remember Jesus said "nothing form without defileth a man.."

R
roaringlamb

Krispy, I understand now, sorry I did not see that last bit earlier. Please forgive me ffor jumping to conclusions.

I paid half is that ok? :-P

S
sermonindex

Remember Jesus said "nothing form without defileth a man.."

Wow... wrenching scripture out of context big time.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

Krispy, I understand now, sorry I did not see that last bit earlier. Please forgive me ffor jumping to conclusions.

No harm done. :-) I could tell you didnt read the whole post.

Krispy

I
iansmith

If I spend much more time with Krispy I'm not even going to be able to breath without offending Jesus.

S
sermonindex

If I spend much more time with Krispy I'm not even going to be able to breath without offending Jesus.

Well, then be thankful for His never ending mercy and grace.

The Lord is looking for a holy people. We all have so far to go, brother.

Instead of watching movies... read some Spurgeon. The quote on the end of my emails says:

[i]"There is enough dust on some of your Bible's to write "damnation" with your fingers."
- Charles H. Spurgeon[/i]

Spurgeon rocks.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

I get under y'alls skin cuz I make you think. If I make people squirm a little then I am fulfilling the calling on my life. No apologies for that.

Krispy

I
iansmith

Well you said read Spurgeon, I would suggest you read a biography of Spurgeon -he was often attacked for appearing to be part of the world. His ministry was to the poor and the prostitutes. He (at one point in his life) liked to go to the theater and even held his church in a theater. He drank at least once a day.

All the while he was serving God, he understood that none of what he did was sinful, but it was the legalists that were condemning him that were in sin.

V
vico

"No man ever puts a stumbling block in the way of others by telling the truth." ~ Oswald Chambers

it's all good man.

I
iansmith

If I'm not wrong Oswald Chambers studied Fine Arts in college... what do you think Fine Arts entails?

Secular Paintings, Classical Music, Theater (Greek Comedies and Tragedies) Shakespeare, Literature etc.

One man's Fine Arts is another man's entertainment. There were people in his day that would have seen this all as foulness, but he found beauty.

S
sermonindex

Hey Ian... you remind me of one of my kids: "Why cant I do that? Everyone else's dad lets them do that!"

Like I said... go see the movie. I dont care. All I'm commanded to do is put the Word of God out there. I dont have to answer for what you do. Mock me all you want, cite other people's behavior as justification for your's ... [b]I dont care.[/b]

I'm commanded to preach the truth in season and out of season. What you do with it is your business.

At that point it isnt about me, or Spurgeon, or Keith Green, who whoever... it's about you, buddy.

Krispy

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Krispy...


KrispyKrittr wrote:
Forgive me for taking this as being contentious. Perhaps you, as well, have ignored what I have written on this thread. Especially part about being in a process, as we all are. And yes, for me, at this point God is convicting me of sporting events on TV, etc. Not just Amazing Grace. But thanx for pointing out my struggle with hypocricy as justification for others to do as they please.

Listen... the long and the short of it is this... I will not be losing any sleep if my brethren on this forum see Amazing Grace. All I am doing is sharing God's Word with everyone so that we can all consider what [b]He[/b] thinks about it. No one has addressed the passages I have listed here. Just opinions on why it's ok to see movies with "mild profanity" in them.

I apologize if it seemed contentious. I am not trying to raise a quarrel or controversy. Nor was I trying to point out YOUR hypocrisy in the matters of subjecting ourselves to less-than-ideal speech. I was merely sharing my own perspective on this issue by pointing out the hypocrisy in pointing out a "mote" while neglecting the "beam."

I truly appreciate your words, Brother Krispy. While they are often blunt -- they do offer some good perspective and usually raise good questions about certain issues. I also appreciate both the Scriptures and the commentary you provided in these posts. You always seem to offer a perspective that is worth considering.

There is certainly an issue about holiness in speech. Whether those verses would allow us to watch a biography about a wonderful man of God (and his struggles on behalf of completing God's will in his life) are certainly an issue worthy of serious consideration.

Personally, I am glad to have watched this film. It portrayed the character and spiritual struggles of William Wilberforce quite effectively (although somewhat muted). I believe that his example will bring good rather than evil.

I do regret the inclusion of two profanities. I imagine that Dave Wilkerson might also regret the inclusion of the same profanity in both the book and film version of [i]The Cross and the Switchblade[/i]. Why was it included? Was it meant to show the events AS they actually happened (Nikki Cruz did indeed swear immediately following his conversion)? Regardless, there is a decision as to whether the inclusion of that word merits the rejection of the book itself. I still own both the book and film version of [i]The Cross and the Switchblade[/i]. I have seen both greatly impact the individuals of whom I loaned them to.

At what point do we physically remove ourselves from interaction with the world? Does physical removal equate to true holiness (or a lack of worldliness)? Amish believers have taken Romans 12:1-2 to an extent in that it dictates a physical removal from "the world." It dictates their dress, their locations, their language and yes, their rules for "holy" living.

However, we are all walking through "the wilderness of this world." We probably hear profanity EVERY day. We also see immodest dress EVERY day. Yet holiness means not allowing those things to take root in our hearts.

Let me be clear -- I do NOT endorse watching movies (christian or secular), music (christian or secular), books (christian or secular), fashion (christian or secular), etc... I believe that everything we do and partake of should be done in faith. This not only means abstaining from obvious profanities -- but abstaining from profane conversations. Remember, profanity is not limited to a particular word. Yet we live in a world in which we cannot physically escape such things. Our escape, thus, is spiritual.

I believe that we can shine a light in the darkness. We can eat, drink and sit with prostitutes, tax collectors and "sinners." Does this mean that we can become like them? No. Does this mean that we can borrow their lifestyles or adapt Christianity to become convenient to them? Of course not. But it does mean that if we are going to reach the world, we will have to reach [u]INTO[/u] the world.

I'm not God, and I answer for no one other than myself before God. But being that I care for everyone here, it is my duty to share God's Word concerning this issue of [b]paying[/b] (emphasis for [b]Roaringlamb[/b]) to hear profanity.
You raise an extremely important issue. Should a believer watch this biography? Should they refrain out of holy obligation? Like you, I will not lose sleep on the issue if people watch it or refrain from it. I will neither recommend the film nor dismiss it. I personally found it strongly educational and encouraging. But like Greg stated, I would much rather spend time in secret and quiet communion with God. Remarkably, this is the same message of the film. William Wilberforce preferred to spend his time in prayer and "the Lord's work" -- yet discovered that the Lord's work can sometimes include fighting spiritual and social immorality.

I love you, Brother Krispy. Keep sharing -- and may the Lord encourage you tremendously!

:-)

I
iansmith

I get under y'alls skin cuz I make you think. If I make people squirm a little then I am fulfilling the calling on my life. No apologies for that.

Is that really your calling for life... I really didn't want to bring much attention to this because it really doesn't make you sound very edifying.

It's true, if you're a profit in the Old Testament than your calling is to rock-the-boat... but this is not the OT, we're not under the law but under Grace. There aren't that many people here who need to have their boats rocked. I know and have been confirmed in the Spirit that I am living my life unto Jesus and taking up my cross daily -do I need you crawling under my skin?

Let's just be honest here, there's a certain air of pride in your posts about how separated you are from the world. I know you're excited about what you've done, but a truly humble person wouldn't force anyone else to be humble but to lead by example.

Krispy, if you were the Pastor and this was a church and we were all backsliders and unconverted heathen then your words and rebukes would be proper. However, for the most part, the believers who interact on this forum are members of the New Covenant -instead of condemnation your posts should be encouragement. I strongly recommend you listen to Zac Poonen's messages on Grace and the New Covenenant.

I
iansmith

Mock me all you want, cite other people's behavior as justification for your's ... [i]I dont care.[/i] -Krispy

You see the problem I have with this, is that you bolded it, I changed it to italics... and I was actually really hurt when I read it, because you know how I read it.

[i]I care all about me, don't talk about anything to me about yourself or anyone else, I really don't care about you at all.[/i]

I'm not twisting your words, I'm just telling you how I read them, and I want you to know that I was really hurt when I read them -and I hope you don't mean them in that way.

I'm commanded to preach the truth in season and out of season. What you do with it is your business.

I really think that this was the heart of Jesus when he was preaching the beattitudes, 'I'm supposed to preach the truth... what you do with it is your business.'

S
sermonindex

[b]ccchhhrrriiisss[/b]...

... you and I go back a ways, so I know you know I love and respect you as my brother in Christ.

There is much you said that I agree with 100%. Most here know that. I think the thing I'm addressing is a flippancy toward the things of the world. An almost "aw... c'mon, it's not so bad" attitude, and it's cropping up on this site quite a bit lately. Perhaps it's because I think there has been an influx of younger people coming on board. I think that's [b]great[/b]. I think it's a wonderful opportunity for the rest of us to teach these guys that this world has nothing to offer us of any redeeming value.

Of course we are to reach the world. Most people here have no idea the ministries I am involved in. Staying at arms length from the world is not my calling in the least.

I think what I'm trying to do on this thread it tip the scales the other way and say "Hey... God does have something to say about what we feed our minds on!" And hopefully it's made some people think a little.

Love ya too, brother... I think you're the man.

Krispy

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Ian... of course I didnt mean it that way, and I apologize for not choosing my words more wisely. I appreciate you being here, and we've had some private conversations that have let me know you're for real, and you and I serve the same God.

All I was saying is I am not telling people what to do. Of course I'm concerned with your soul, and your walk with God... but I'm not the Holy Spirit. You have to answer for you.

If I didnt love you and have concern, I wouldnt say the things I say about what God's Word has to say on such subjects as this.

Forgive me, brother, for hurting you.

Krispy

I
iansmith

Krispy,

I've also noticed a lot of younger people on the board, me being one of them. I just wanted to say that its going to take compromise on both sides, the old and the young. But I want you to know that there are probably people who come to this forum looking for encouragement and are turned away by what they see as condemnation.

If I wasn't so stubborn I'd have given up on even trying to interject grace into these threads.

I don't own a TV, I watch maybe one movie a month if less than that, and usually for fellowship purposes. I read about 4-5 Christian books a month, right now I'm reading Charles Finney, CS Lewis, KP Yohannan, AW Tozer, John Bunyan etc.

I recognized that I had idols with music, comic books, tv and movies... so I fast from them all. I haven't even owned a TV since I became a Christian. I boxed up or sold all of my comic books. I boxed up or sold all of my old cds. I threw out a lot of movies -the ones I have left are Casablanca, It's A Wonderful Life, Ben Hur, Napoleon Dynamite (it's funny), some Korean language Christian movies and some Chinese language comedies. They mostly just sit on the shelf.

I'm quick to defend rights of people to read, listen and watch what they want unless the Spirit convicts them otherwise. As for me, I was convicted by the Spirit in many places.

I used to have a nice job working for a Chinese owned company -the problem was that some of the people who used our services were part of organized crime. There was nothing illegal about my company or my job though. I myself had nothing to do with any of that, and probably could have continued working there if the Spirit hadn't led me otherwise.

My grandfather is a alchohalic and a problem gambler -my grandfather isn't a Christian, so I know that's the root of the problem, but I've also been convicted by the Spirit to abstain from those things.

I've also been single for the last seven years, as part of my testimony that I shared the other day I tried to find significance in relationships... the Spirit convicted me that I needed to abstain from dating. I haven't been given a clear conviction otherwise yet. Although I'm not going to tell any brother or sister at church that they can't date or find a wife or husband because of my own personal conviction.

I lead a pretty boring life by most standards (but I like it all the same). Most nights after work I goto a cafe and study for GRE, study for my missions class (perspectives.org) or read any of the ten books i'm working through right now, or just spend time in devotion or prayer. But that certainly doesn't mean that another person isn't a Christian if they don't do all those things or watch TV instead.

I'm not trying to justify my own actions, or the actions of anyone else. I'm trying to see clearly what is the heart of God in these matters... a lot of time our own judgement on these matters has been clouded by our own conviction or leading of the Spirit and we try to apply that to everyone.

I have certainly felt lead by the spirit to put money aside for missions, and to live a more simple life and pay off my debts... that doesn't mean that someone who buys a new car or a new house, or gets a little bit of credit card debt is forsaking the Gospel.

There is one place in my life that I have felt the Spirit leading that I haven't been very faithful in, and that's with my weight... I'm a big guy and haven't been a good steward of my body. I eat too much and don't excercise nearly enough.

I know that eating too much in my life is a sin... but if I were to apply that to one of the South East Asian girls at my church who can eat a truck without putting on a pound it would be improper... their metabolism is better, and they may not even be in sin, they may just be hungry and God has provided them with means to fill that hunger.

We need to be careful how we apply our own personal convictions to other people. There are definitely things in the bible that we have to stand up for -like issues involving marriage and abortion. But something like the cloths we wear or the movies we watch... those are issues that the Spirit needs to convict the individual of.

S
sermonindex

We need to be careful how we apply our own personal convictions to other people. There are definitely things in the bible that we have to stand up for -like issues involving marriage and abortion. But something like the cloths we wear or the movies we watch... those are issues that the Spirit needs to convict the individual of.

Yes and no... it's interesting to me that Christians can become all about being religious on the outside, and clothes & movies become a big issue. Kinda like "look at me... I'm religious".

But at the same time I have observed that many get saved and walk real close to the world [b]until[/b] something (Holy Spirit) prompts them to go deeper with the Lord... and then clothes and movies become an issue for them for the [b]right[/b] reasons.

You know what the Holy Spirit used to prompt me? My children. Hopefully someday you'll understand what I mean.

Does that make sense?

But I want you to know that there are probably people who come to this forum looking for encouragement and are turned away by what they see as condemnation.

I understand this well, and we should speak in love. But too many times people interpret that to mean we should never be blunt or forward. I disagree. I may say something truthful and in a blunt way... but not be condeming. If someone takes it as condemning I cant help that. That is an indication of their immaturity.

But at the same time we should not be offensive thinking that we are being truthful and blunt.

I dont know if that makes sense. What I'm trying to say is that the truth [b]is[/b] offensive to some. Scripture says the cross is an offense to those who dont get it.

Should I temper my words? In some cases. In most cases, no. Also, consider that when you read someone's words here it's very easy to misunderstand cuz you dont see my face, or hear my voice... so you filter everything thru your own screens. You do... I do it... all God's children do it.

Krispy

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