I am so sick of the easy-believism that is so prevailant in American Christianity!

Is this the same sermon listed under him as "Shocking message that has offended many?"

Either way, incredible message.

Sean

Wow. Just wow. Boldness like the disciples and apostles of the Bible. Thanks for the link, that was powerful. Dear God, do what you need to do with me to keep me on that narrow path. I submit my will to You entirely, for You and Your grace can keep me on that path.

Mia and Bailey, Dugan, Buddy & Agnes the beagles.

Am downloading the 'shocking message', which on my speed, takes a while. If it's shocking, it must be to the point, and the reason we are all here. Thank's for the download site!

Blessings,

we need more of this, i discovered that everything people have a problem obeying or just don't like the call it pharisee or legalism or overly spiritual. Just my experience...and its such a blessing to hear men like Paul Washer, men who preach all of Gods word, i just listened to that Erlo Stegen sermon again for the third time , enemy of the cross.... most professing Christians walk as enemies of the cross... and if the message of the cross is foolishness to you.... that is a bad sign. People so often see it as burden to give up wordily lusts and entertainments... its such a blessing that we can be free from these things and instead of that go and behold his face, Ravenhill said it, A.W pink said he didn't believe even 2% of people inside of the church was born again, that was in the days before TV! how far worse of are we now.... God help us.... we so far far away from where we should be only he can help us

brother if you go back just a few verses paul says this

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

isn't that to judge? maybe we shouldn't rip scripture out of its context brother.... it can be dangerous, we have to get all the scripture together and compare them

of course brother, i just mean Paul didn't write chapter 1 and then chapter 2, he wrote one letter and to me what he says in chapter 1 is the must judgmental statement one can make... in my opinion. S when he speaks about judging or not in chap 2 , either he is a hypocrite... or he means something else... I'm not quite sure myself, but when someone murders another person, we say he is a murderer...is that to judge? of course but it is a right judgment.

Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

so is it possible, that when we judge we should judge from what the bible says, i agree if we judge by our own views that is wrong, or our own feelings and so on. thats my take on it,

another popular verse people speak about in this matter is

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

but later in that very same chapter he tells us to judge false prophets

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

that must also be an awful thing what judgment to judge someone as to be a false prophet a false teacher! if i say that to someone i say in other words you are not from God and what you teach is from the devil, thats heavy...

just my view on this matter, maybe we should go into a separate thread whit this matter? and let this thread be what it was intended to be? looking forward to discuss in love Brother :-)

it is possible for me to be wrong, its a freedom to know that sometimes :-)

what do you think?

Hi everyone.

I don't know brothers and sisters, but I wonder if there isn't something about our observations and declarations of things called Modern Christianity that [i]can be[/i] in danger of drifitng into, well,

[i]grumbling[/i] even if it sounds pious.

[i] And Moses said, This shall be, when the Lord shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full; for that the Lord heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but against the Lord.[/i]

Strong's Ref. # 8519

Romanized tluwnah
Pronounced tel-oo-naw'

or tlunnah {tel-oon-naw'}; from HSN3885 in the sense of obstinacy; a grumbling:

KJV--murmuring.

Let me give you an example of what I'm wondering about here...

I work in a management position and one thing I've noticed about managers is that they like to talk to each other about things on the job, often about what is wrong with this, that, or the other.

Sometimes this is nescessary, in order to make changes, ect.. Other times it is just plain gossip. When I've talked to other managers about this who have come to me with this sort of thing, I've told them how I recognise if something is gossip:

[b]One[/b] Do I have a reason to know what you are telling me.

[b]Two[/b] And this goes along with the first one, can I do any about what you are telling me; that is, am I in a postion to bring about a positive change to the situation.

So in other words, if you are coming to me and telling me all this garbage about so and so, just to [i]get it off your chest[/i] or to [i]vent[/i] or whatever, then forget it because I don't want to listen to someone's poisonous words about someone else.

So my wondering here then is about what happens if things are being spoken, not about any one person, but about God's Church.

Brothers, I recognise the need to call out evil. I think my concern here is more about the spirit of it.

Just some thoughts. I hope no one misunderstands me. Perhaps I can offer this then as nothing more than a gentle reminder, or a brief word of caution.

Your's in the paitient waiting for God's Son,

Christopher

thank you brother for the reminder

but there is a danger whit this easy belivism... Jesus said in the parable of the sower in Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

if we don't understand even this, that there are false converts, false believers just as there are false teachers and false prophets...there are many many many false belivers...fallen into this easy believes. We do need to let the spirit do its work, but God also uses men, filled whit the holy spirit.

we need to preach the cross... as in death to self, death to the world

Wow, I didn't sense any judgment from Paul Washer in his message. His emphasis was more that the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is not biblical and you can't just go on your merry way and sin as you like and never repent just because you prayed the sinner's prayer. Maybe it's just me? Help me understand what you mean, J-bird. I didn't have a "holier than thou" sense coming from him or the message.

Mia and Bailey, Dugan, Buddy and Agnes the beagles.

but something that just comes to mind, why did Paul write to the Corinthians, and warn them don't do this and don't do that? i believe because he wanted to warn them if you continue to live that way you going to miss the "mark",

and Jesus says in Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

that implies to me he can erase one persons name if he comes to saving faith and then went astray for some reason, one i believe is unholy living.

whiteout holiness you wont see the Lord, no matter if you are a "hard" believer ;-)

just my thoughts on it

nothing good ever came from me brother .... all from him all from Jesus...but the thing is...many people think they have him when they dont... many many multitudes of people are deceived into believing they are saved when they are not...thats the problem as i see it

i could say so mant things and so on, but i belive this comp says it better then i ever could brother:-) maybe you already heard it?

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=13118&commentView=itemComments]ALL TO JESUS[/url]

i recomend it

easy believism? What the opposite of that?

Fair question.

I don't think Paul Washer is questioning the simplicity of faith in Christ or trying to add man-made hurdles to make it hard to be a Christian. I think he is more concerned about how 'easy' it is these days to claim the Christian faith while not sharing in or imitating any of Jesus' nature.

Barnum polls reveal that the majority of Christians have finally achieved total resemblance to the world in all moral and spiritual areas of life. Evangelicals have been so concerned with being accepted into the mainstream that they have succeeded...and as a result are trading distinction for extinction.

Christianity has become the quest for acceptance and happiness. This weak sociological Christianity, and not the profound but simple assurance of justification by faith, is the subject of Paul Washers concern. I think the original Paul who defended justification by faith from the Judiazers, would be the first to share Washers alarm over the modern pandemic of easy believism in the church.

When people who are identified with righteousness behave wickedly without self-criticism or reproof, they deny the very existance of righteousness...they deny that there is such a thing as the power of Godliness. Washers' lament is ultimately not a rant for his own personal religous standards...but a zeal for God's name to be trusted...let alone feared among the 'gentiles' who need the Gospel.

Blessings,

MC

Hi again all.

I'm saying that you cannot discern who is in Christ and who is out of Christ by their works, and that's what he's doing.

I could be wrong about this, but I think there is something just under the surface of what Jason is trying to get at here. Maybe this is what he is thinking of...

[b][color=660033]So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this... [/color][/b]

[i]...The servants said unto him, [b]Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?[/b][/i]

[b][color=660033] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them...[/color][/b]

[i][b][color=660033]...Let both grow together until the harvest: [/color][/b][/i]

j-bird, your saying paul is judging? what are you doing? Your doing the same thing that you are telling others not to do. Sounds like you are judging Paul like a pharisee without looking at the fruit.

Didn't Jesus say that you will know them by their fruit? Jesus tells us to use righteos judgement or else we will be deceived by false doctrines, wolves , and false brothers.

We should not use our experience to correct others. What does the word say?

does anyone know or have a bio on Paul Washer like how old he is, and How many years he has been in the ministry? or is there a sermon where he gives his testimony?
love andy

andres wrote:
does anyone know or have a bio on Paul Washer like how old he is, and How many years he has been in the ministry? or is there a sermon where he gives his testimony?
love andy

I go to church with him & his family; his wife and I are good friends. Bro. Paul is about 45. They have 2 little boys and are expecting a little girl in June. Go to the Heartcry website for more info about his ministry (look on the left side of the Sermon Index screen -- there's a link).

Somewhere in all of this there must be a balance. I agree with much of what J-bird is saying regarding attempting to ascertain whether or not someone is saved and judging them based on appearance.

On the other hand, I also agree with the hearts cry that our brother Paul was pouring out in this sermon. There is absolutely no doubt that volumes of americans are going to get the shock of their lives, make that their eternities on that fateful day.

However, this is where I believe Paul may have been a little off base. I think we must be careful to understand what Jesus meant when He talked about fruit bearing on good/bad trees. Fruit does not equal maturity or even santification. A life that is [i]being[/i] sanctified by the Lord will [i]in time [/i] bear good fruit. Has anyone ever seen a sapling fruit tree bearing any fruit at all? Even when these trees do begin to bear fruit it is often small with a relatively paltry harvest.

And just what is bad fruit? I wrestled with this in prayer before coming back to post this reply. I believe now that bad fruit is refering to broken relationships and damaged people left in the wake of someones life. This is perhaps too simple an answer to this question, though I am convinced it leads in the right general direction.

Now for a bit of personal testimony. In 1978 I was a 16 year old headbangin', dope smokin', class cuttin' punk of a human being. A friend of mine from school belonged to a youth group from the local Southern Baptist church. They were planning a snow trip Lake Tahoe in the Sierra Mountains. He invited me to go and on the trip I came to realize that there really was a God.

I knew without a doubt that if God was real then Jesus was His Son. The moment I recognized God's reality I walked into the church and 'got saved' by saying the sinners prayer. At that moment God and only God was capable of judging the sincerity of my prayer and/or my standing before Him. I know in my heart that had I died in that moment I would have been redeemed.

Upon returning to the reality of high school it didn't take long for the temptation of skipping a class and goin' to the crick to get stoned presented itself. I failed that test miserably, and continued to fail for another three years, though I kept up church attendance for the first year. Was I growing in the Lord during this period? Absolutely not! Was I a child of God? Absolutely, the seed was in my heart, I just didn't have a clue as to how to live it out.

During this time I was protected and watched over by my faithful Father. One way He covered me was in the area of my future career as a truck driver. It is nearly impossible to get a trucking job if you have any drunk driving or drug convictions. In those four years I was pulled over on four seperate occasions while drunk. Usually very drunk. Not a single DUI. Another time I had a joint in plain view when an officer searched my car (I was sober). He warned me not to smoke the stuff and let me go. Still another occasion I was arrested for some outstanding fix it tickets (pathetic, huh). I had hallucenigenic mushrooms in my pocket. No charges were ever filed. This was the grace of God. Anyone who looked at the 'fruit' in my life would have concluded, and many did, that I was on the road to hell.

While it is tempting to judge outward appearances, it is dangerous to do so. The 'fruit' of such judgement may just be to drive someone away from the grace of God, instead of drawing them in to His loving arms.

In His Love,

Doug

No problem J,

I am who I am today by the grace of God. I see no reason to hide my past from anyone, least of all the saints of God.

May blessings from above rain down on you,

Doug

Too often the conversations about holiness are reduced to focusing on the issue of security...but the issue is much more then that. We became Christians to follow close to Jesus...to practice his presence. We died to the law, so that we could be divorced from it...so that we could be bound to the Lord as his servant and even his bethrothed!

Maturity is hardly the issue here, for even immature Christians should want to abide in Christ. Certainly we understand that there is growth in character...but the truly repentent heart is wholey given over to following Jesus. So even if we could somehow all agree that holiness is not required for security we could never conclude that holiness is nonessential for abiding in fellowship with Jesus. Haven't we all had our hearts broken over some besetting sin...aching not because we deserve condemnation...but because our sin interfered with our connection to the presence of Christ? Is this not the heartbeat of the Christian? The law does not bring us lasting peace, nor does sin bring us lasting pleasure...but the Lord is a source of everlasting comfort.

This is why it is so puzzling that many Christians defend their security while practicing habitual sins, because security in the next life is not the deeper heart's concern of the Christian. What true Christian doesn't want to be close to God in this life...to be his friend...to practice his presence daily? God has the water that we should never thirst!

So in general, this is one tragic characteristic of easy believism: Christians who are more concerned about their security then they are about knowing God. The opposite of easy believism is holiness. The immense value of holiness to the Christian is not merely to know how to keep the law...but to know how to keep the presence of God.:-)

Blessings,

MC

It is a dangerouse thing to use our experience as a guide than what the word of God says, a very foolish and selfish thing to compare ourselves with others instead of comparing ourselves to the word of God.

To man, the sin always seems little when looking at it thru his own eyes and judging by the flesh. We must see it thru God's eyes, His word, by His Spirit.

What does His word say about practicing sin? Not what your flesh wants to hear and believe. What does the word of God say about your situation, your problem, about being lukewarm, being a true disciple ect..? Compare yourselves by the word of God and not by man's standard, his feelings, but, what does the word of God say.

Galatians 5:24-25
24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

2 Timothy 2:19
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ "depart from iniquity.”

brother, just a little exhortation; beware of what you say when talking about brother in the Lord. Life and death are in the power of the tongue, and the pen is mightier than the sword. encourage one another and build each other up.

personally, i've been very blessed by listening to sermons by Paul Washer! I would encourage you to listen to more of his sermons, maybe that way you can get a broader perspective on where he's coming from.

anybody have any suggestions on a few sermons he could listen to?

Love in Christ,
~vico

anybody have any suggestions on a few sermons he could listen to?

Listen to Keith Daniels. Yesterday I listened to "America's Only Hope" and it was one of those sermons that gets stuck in your brain like a pesky pop corn kernel stuck in your teeth! Actually, I have not heard any of his sermons that were not worth your time.

ginnyrose

Thought this qoute from J.C.Philpot might be good for balance. He says

"But promises are not the only parts of the Word which the voice of Christ addresses to those that fear God. The threatenings and warnings contained in the Scriptures He speaks home to the soul as well as the promises. The shepherd drives his flock at times before him, as well as draws them at others by going before them. The wise parent chastises his child when needful; as well as fondles it. There is much presumption, pride, hypocrisy, deceit, delusion, formality, superstition, will-worship and self-righteousness to be purged out of the heart; and "as the blueness of a wound cleanses away evil, so do stripes the inward parts of the belly" Pr 20:30. I look upon the road to heaven as a narrow path that lies between two hedges, and that on the other side of each hedge is a bottomless ditch. One of these ditches is despair, and the other is presumption. The hedge that keeps the soul from falling into the pit of despair is that of the promises; and the hedge that keeps the soul from sinking into the abyss of presumption is that of warnings, precepts and threatenings. Without the spiritual application of the promises the soul would lie down in despair, and without the spiritual application of the precepts and warnings it would be swollen with arrogance, puffed up with pride, and ready to burst with presumption."

or listen to Britney Spears your not really a christian because your not very holy.

Sir, from what the news tells me about this female, I cannot in my imagination believe any godly person will be attracted to her performances, or music or whatever she does. From the news reports I have seen she is so ungodly...

Consider Romans 1:32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." The things this reference is talking about is listed in v. 29-30: all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful.

I cannot imagine any godly person defending Britany Spears...Or even looking at photos of her very long without becoming contaminated!

ginnyrose

J-Bird I think I know where you are coming from but I do not agree with you about Paul Washer. I echo what mom23beagles wrote earlier

Wow, I didn't sense any judgment from Paul Washer in his message. His emphasis was more that the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is not biblical and you can't just go on your merry way and sin as you like and never repent just because you prayed the sinner's prayer. Maybe it's just me?

and Compton

I don't think Paul Washer is questioning the simplicity of faith in Christ or trying to add man-made hurdles to make it hard to be a Christian. I think he is more concerned about how 'easy' it is these days to claim the Christian faith while not sharing in or imitating any of Jesus' nature.

If J-Bird were to meet Bro. Paul, I think he would be shocked to find such a humble man who can deliver such "offensive" sermons. He is very soft-spoken and has the countenance of one who is broken-hearted. He has such a passion for God's glory and is deeply grieved over America's brazen sinfulness.

My conviction is that America, [i]in general[/i], is so self-consumed, so opinionated, so ignorant of God and His holiness, that Bro. Paul was just scratching the surface in that sermon. Praise God for prophets who will bravely "hold a mirror up" before the people to show them what they really look like. And that is the most [i]loving[/i] thing a preacher could do -- exposing sin, and proclaiming the one divine remedy for it.

I would encourage people to listen to other sermons by Bro. Paul -- there are many that delve deeply into the richness of God's love for us, that could melt the heart of the most rebellious sinner.

I certainly believe that there is a place for Paul W’s message! I share his burden over alarming prevalence of easy believism. He carries the burden of the Lord, for sure. Of course God will continue to shape him and refine him, and season him. I pray that Paul will keep his eye on the Lord, and not merely the troubles in the world. May the joy, hope, and goodness of the Christ remain rooted beneath his intense burden.

Here is a good point:

The shepherd drives his flock at times before him, as well as draws them at others by going before them. The wise parent chastises his child when needful; as well as fondles it. There is much presumption, pride, hypocrisy, deceit, delusion, formality, superstition, will-worship and self-righteousness to be purged out of the heart; and "as the blueness of a wound cleanses away evil, so do stripes the inward parts of the belly" Pr 20:30.

So true, whatever it takes to purge the evil from our hearts is worth it! Yet we are all different, and no size fits all – even at all times. Also, what works for one may drive another away. You can’t push sheep. They move best by following. I admit, that I have never taken well to strong and forceful rebukes. It has the opposite effect on me that it may have on others. The Spirit can have me on the floor in brokenness and tears with the quietist of whispers or even an expression of his goodness. On the other hand, when I feel a threat to my psyche, I just bristle up and try to hide in a corner (figuratively). Strong, abrasive words moves me towards self-defence rather than openness and honesty. I see a lot of people like that – even ones that try to look tough and resilient.

I admit I felt overwhelmed when I listened to Paul’s opening words. It was like: “Red alert! Hang on folks! You are about to embark on the riskiest ride of your life. And you may hate it. And you may get angry. But your not going to escape.”

Now, having said that, I know that some people would not feel that way at all. Maybe many are so accustomed to strong speech that even this message may be like water off a duck’s back. Also, I admit that if I had heard this sermon 30 years ago I would have passed under the radar – and viewed myself as DEFINITELY not one of those bad sinners out there (or in the pew beside me) Self-righteousness is a strong repellent, indeed! It’s always safer to accept strong words of rebuke as a great and awesome message for SOMEBODY ELSE – or something the CHURCH needs to hear….. But what about me?

Really we are left at the mercy of God – for only he can save!! The Spirit is still the one who brings ultimate conviction – and uses all kinds of people and means. He knows exactly how to break us out of our blindness and resistance, and bring us into glorious conviction and freedom in Christ.

Let us praise God for people like Paul Washer. He said, “I speak as a dying man to dying people”. With that self-view, we can expect more and more that his listeners will be drawn to Christ. The proof is in the outcome:

Do the listeners say, “What a great preacher!” or do they say, “What a great Savior” ?

Diane

Bro. Paul . . . [is] such a humble man . . . very soft-spoken and has the countenance of one who is broken-hearted. He has such a passion for God's glory and is deeply grieved over America's brazen sinfulness. . . . Bro. Paul was just scratching the surface in that sermon.

I wish to add that this is my discernment from afar and my own spiritual experience when listening to Paul Washer. I truly wish there were more like him.

(Major Ian Thomas)
The Lord Jesus Christ did not shed His blood so that you could have a release from a guilt complex, so that you might escape the puny consequences of your sin.
The Lord Jesus died upon the cross not just to get you out of hell into heaven.
He died upon the cross to get God out of heaven into you.
And the measure in which you are saved is the measure which God out of heaven in you is in function:
Actually calling the shots;
Actually controlling what you do with your hands;
Actually controlling where you go with your feet;
Actually controlling what you say with your lips;
Actually controlling what you think with your mind;
Actually controlling the decisions that you make;
That is the measure in which you are saved.
So don’t kid yourself.
Just because 10 years or 15 years ago you walked down the aisle or raised your hand and [you’ve been paying your tithe?] you’ve been praying your tide and you’ve been through the tarp, don’t fancy that constitute your salvation.
There are hundreds of thousands of men and women who troop to church every Sunday who’ve gone through all of that and they are not even regenerate.
They are unsaved believers.
They are conforming to denominational patterns that have become a substitute for a personal spiritual relationship to Jesus Christ, and they know nothing, nothing really, of the life that is the birthright of the newborn.
And there are going to be some tragic surprises in the day the dust has settled.

here are some more sermons i belive everybody who says they are saved should listen to, they have been a great blessing for me ,

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1507&commentView=itemComments]If You Agree - Paris Reidhead[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3981&commentView=itemComments]Knowing Jesus - Major Ian Thomas[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=131&commentView=itemComments]What is it to accept Christ? part1 -A.W Tozer[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=132&commentView=itemComments]What is it to accept Christ? part2 -A.W Tozer[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=6704&commentView=itemComments]What is your life? Leonard Ravenhill[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=7347&commentView=itemComments]Suffer here or suffer there- Leonard Ravenhill[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=12124&commentView=itemComments]Chosen to be holy - Alan Redpath[/url]

[b][color=660033]...with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again[/color][/b]

[b][color=660033]...I do always those things that please him.[/color][/b]

As I have read through this thread, I began to realize something neat.
I understand to a point where J-bird is coming from, but I also think it was a little harsh to decry Bro. Washer as well.

The point I would like to bring up is this, too often we listen to messages by men like Bro Washer, Bro Daniels etc, and we say, "that's it I will be like them!" only to have a false flesh based "holiness" that many times comes across as arrogant, and self-righteous. Perhaps this is because we have made a decision to be like a man instead of yielding to the Man Christ Jesus.

I am constantly being reminded of the Scripture that says, "the flesh profiteth nothing" so would it not be safe to say that if we make a "fleshly" decision to be more "holy" it profits nothing, and only ends up creating despair as you can never be holy enough, never pray enough etc. In the end, we place ourselves under a law, and determine our acceptance to God by that. But that totally defies Christ's work upon Calvary. The point is we could not be holy enough but He was, we could not do enough, but He did. Now I am no longer a servant, but a son, and my obedience is out of joy and love.

Of course it is good to have "goads" that prod us here and there, but ultimately that chief Goad should be Christ Himself, thus we serve Him, and all He demands, He provides. Whereas our flesh will make a million different demands, and fulfill not one of them.

I have done the very things I write about, and I have used my self righteous attitudes gained from trying to be like these men to cause more harm than good both in my own wal, and in others' as well. It's not their fault, they are preaching from their burden, but that does not mean I need to live as to please Paul Washer, or David Wilkerson, or even my own twisted view of what I think I should be. But rather I live to please one, Christ Jesus, my Head, and my Lord.

It is liberating, and it is dangerous, but it is truly wonderful.

J-bird,
what are the roles of the Holy Spirit in a Christian's life?
love
andy

They did'nt do anything right as a christian. They were failures in the work of the Lord. They never lifted a finger to further the kingdom. They may of even hindered the work of the kingdom. These are the ones nobody wants. these are the outcasts and the rejects of the church, the down trodden, many never given a chance, never having a mentor or a guide to help them grow spiritually. these are the ones that you say arent really even saved. Their the ones that the devil has decieved into believing theres no hope for them and that they are'nt really saved. Their the ones on the other side of the computer monitor inside theri homes reading this message and saying to themselves after reading all your posts "I knew there was no hope for me." Their the ones as a humble little child put their faith in a man called Jesus.

They did'nt know much about the bible and they may not of even been able to read, but someone told them that Jesus loves them when noone else did, and that he died for them so that they might have eternal life. They believed that in their heart and God saved them.

Their the alcoholics that lost the battle. Their the drug addicts and sex addicts that lost the fight.

J-Bird this was and is me for 25 years..I have tried and tried for so long to build on what a scared boy of 15 saw in Nicky Cruz book..It seems sometimes i didn't start sining till i got saved,i went so far off the path..I could never make it work!! i never felt right with other Christians,or feel joy or contentment about God..

But ur post seems to leave me there..Is that all there is? that i made one right choice all them years ago..Wheres the hope that something magical will happen?

Jesus says there is a path,but ur post makes me feel like i don't even get on it..maybe i'm missing something forgive me if i am..

But the irony is people like Paul and Keith Daniel or Pastor Carter,the preachers who are considered Holiness preachers, frill me the most..They promise me something magical

aj

Brother J-Bird, your last post was touching. I would never want to add one thng extra nor take away from your confidence in the suffiency of Jesus! You have stated it with a compelling passion that was very upliftng to me.

Yet I do feel it edifying to point out that a turn to holiness need not be viewed as a turn towards self-righteousness or as works-salvation.

This week I was teaching my children about holiness. Now I would never want to disturb their tender faith in Jesus with any unstable false burden of works. Indeed, I see my role as an earthly father summed up in leading them to their heavenly Father; to give them just a small taste of the love that they can know from their heavenly father. Still, I want them to know about holiness...though we all might admit with some reluctance that the very word is strange to say in this day and age.

Why, as a father that is committed to equipping my precious children with a deep life-long abiding confidence in God's unfailing love, why would I also impress on them the importance of Godly living? Precisely that they may learn to walk as close to the God of their comfort as they are able, and to spare them the dissolusionment of sin and the heartbreak of being in conflict with the Spirit who is their comforter.

You poignantly described those that have tried and failed to find victory over their sins. Well I will point out that by portraying them as exausted and crushed and not as flippant or diffident, that you understand it is right that they should try! You certainly weren't encouraging them to give up or grow indifferent. On the contrary you were showing compassion for their wounds, and encouraging them to take refuge in Jesus that gives them the strength to keep believing.

This is a far cry from condoning their defeat, or from encouraging a careless attitude towards sin. In this way, you and Paul Washer are not completely at odds. He is speaking to those who have no burden for righteousness, while you are concerned for those who are feeling crushed over the self-awareness of their unrighteousness. You are having compassion on the broken and outcast who realize they need Jesus, while Paul Washer is rebuking those that sin presumptively in Jesus' name with no wrestling, no lament, no heavyness of heart over their sin.

Blessings brother,

MC

Balance,

I love that word.

God's will for our lives is holiness. Why? Because it represents wholeness. There is simply no better way to exist than living holy lives. This is God's heart at work. His desire for us is to be filled with righteousness, peace and joy. What marvelous things these are! This is the kingdom of God imparted to our innermost beings by the Holy Spirit. This is also known as the kingdom of God. What blessedness there is in holiness!

On the other side of this coin is grace. God comprehends the pain and disfunction within our souls. He has compassion for the wretched condition that sin causes. Not only our own sinfuless, but the damage caused by others as they have sinned against us. No one, and I repeat no one can fully comprehend every intimate detail of life that makes up an individual soul except God. When we come to Him and cry out "God save me", when we recognize our sinful condition and see the answer in Jesus Christ, God does something very special. He saves us to the uttermost. Nothing more is needed. At this point we are adopted into His family. He looks down upon us there on our knees and whispers..My son, My daughter, I love you and will NEVER let go of your hand.

God loves even or maybe especially, the devestated amongst us. In this world of ours many people encounter unspeakable horror before coming to the cross. The reality of our sin sick world is that children are subjected to all manner of abuse. This comes in many forms and many degrees. This in turn will cause their own sinful nature to become worse as they lash out in anger and bitterness. How can we make judgements about the quality of christian growth when we cannot possibly know the degree of pain and mistrust that has been drilled into someones heart? Judge not! Yes that verse IS in the bible!

But what does God say? My son, my daughter, I love you and will NEVER let go. You BELONG to Me now. You have been redeemed.

Amen and Amen.

Woe unto those through whom offenses come.

In His Unsearchable love,

Doug

Hi J,

been thinking of your post the whole morning. I think that the rub is this, what is the state of the persons heart toward Jesus. Is he/she proud or humble. Peters comment is that God gives grace to the humble. That is amazing, that in spite of all his commands, he will give the humble person grace.

Another thought on this is that Paul tells the corinthians that:Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who [b]take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.[/b] 13If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

16So [b]from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view.[/b] Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.2 Cor 5
This passage I have thought on often and the admnishment not to regard people anymore in manner after the flesh is really interesting.

I really enjoyed your comments, it made me think a little about the issues you have spoken about.

God bless,

Easy believism and cross-less Christianity are synonymous topics.

If someone here is trying to imply, howsoever indirectly, that Paul Washer is judgemental, just come out and say it and stop beating around the bush. And if for some reason you think that, then I would suggest you do a study on "Judging Others" and really examine the lives of Jesus, the Apostles, and the Old Testament Prophets.

I would also look into the many threads in this site that have already discussed the issue of Judging - How to Judge & How not to Judge, etc, etc.

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves, but they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."-2Cor 10:12 (kjv)

An undeserving brother,
richie

jimdied2sin wrote:
If your faith in Jesus hasn't radically transformed your life, your faith is dead and worthless.

Amen. . . it is heresy to say that we have to clean up our lives [i]in order to be saved[/i] -- that is impossible. But [i]after[/i] salvation has occured, the Holy Spirit does his gentle, effectual work of sanctification in the believer.

As my pastor said Sunday -- "Do you begin to love what you used to abhor, and abhor what you used to love?" No one can be perfectly holy, but our [i]natural affections[/i] will increasingly be for holy, true, beautiful things. These SHOW FORTH our salvation; they don't ACCOMPLISH our salvation.

My dear brothers and sisters,

No one here is attempting to justify sin. It is simply that there is a danger to us all of becoming judgemental in our zeal for God.

I spend one afternoon a week volunteering at the local mission. Missions as you know minister to the 'untuochables' of our society. Some of these come to know the reality of the gospel in this place and are truly redeemed. The mission has a live in discipleship program. Part of this program includes working in the mission helping out with the needs of operating such a large ministry. I work along side several of these men and women.

One of these women is in her mid forties. In her former life she hung out with the biker crowd. Hells angels and the ilk. Who can say how or why she got in with this crowd. The path there is irrelevant. The truth is that the combination of her own sin nature and whatever level of sin she encountered as a child, she grew rebelious and turned to that free spirited partying anti authority lifestyle. So there she is in her forties so messed up that she wound up on the doorstep of a homeless shelter needing some serious help. Praise the Lord these places exist, for she would likely have been turned away from most of our churches. It will take considerable time and patient teaching and mentoring before this child of God starts to look and act like she 'should'. I hope and pray that she will continue to encounter brothers and sisters who will love and accept her regardless of her rough edges. If she gets inwith a group of believers over zealous for outward growth who begin to reject her for not responding fast enough, her growth in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ will likely be stymied.

Think about it this way. I am a real estate agent, so I walk through a wide variety of homes. Some older homes are in relatively good condition, they have been well cared for by their owners. Others have fallen into some degree of disrepair. These were not well cared for, life and time takes its toll. Some are in even worse condition. They have holes in the walls, doors kicked in, broken windows etc. in addition to the normal were and tear. Some even have cracked foundations and sloping floors. Imagine purchasing a house like this. It will take a great deal of time, effort, resources and materials to restore this home to wholeness. Are we able as christians to recognize that some lives are like this? Do not condemn them because you don't see these people as measuring up to your concept of holiness. To do so is to sin against the very heart of God. Salvation really is quite simple. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart He is risen from the dead you shall be saved. It does not continue...but only if other believers are able to see some measurable holiness in your lives. Ugh, do you dare add this to the word of God?

In closing, let me say this about Paul Washer and the sermon that began this thread. I am in complete agreement with him. I love this man's heart. His is not the mentality I am adressing.

In His Love,

Doug

Matthew 7
17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

All your other Scriptures were good, but this deals with false prophets, and not believers. Other than that good stuff

Jim,

[color=0000CC]Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'[/color]

I think we ultimately do agree, as I mentioned at the end of my previous post, I agree with both the heart and message that began this discussion. The above referenced scripture was at the heart of that sermon. The scripture also warns us to 'make our calling and election sure.' It is tragically true that millions of Americans have not done this and indeed are not saved.

[color=0000CC]It does not continue...but only if other believers are able to see some measurable holiness in your lives. Ugh, do you dare add this to the word of God? [/color]

This was not directed at anyone imparticular. To some degree or another I think we have all been guilty of this attitude. It is very subtle and hard to detect at times. We need to continually search our hearts in our attitudes toward each other. I have seen a post here and there that says something like 'if you're really saved you should...' thereby calling into question someones salvation based on works. Dangerous stuff that.

[color=0000CC]Salvation really is quite simple. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart He is risen from the dead you shall be saved. [/color]

The key element here is the believe in your heart portion. It is true that many confess the Lord but fail this second requirement, we however cannot discern this unless perhaps the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart on specific occasions. For highly 'disfunctional' people it can take quite some time before any real evidence is obvious. In most cases there is a change in the language (swearing) but not much else. When I hear someone claiming to be a christian who swears like a sailor I must admit I too have my doubts.

In His Love,

Doug

We have to determine what the Chrsitian life is. I believe some here think it to be a thing in which you "arrive" one day into a sinless bliss, and can then justly cast verbal stones at any who are not living up to your perceived level of spirituality.

Of course there may be others who say, " lighten up, grace grace..."

But isn't the Christian life utter and thourough dependence upon Christ? Every minute of every day? I believe this alone would make a man "examine himslelf" to see whether he is in the faith or not. Yet as Paul said,
" Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand."

I know that we all desire great things, and well we should. But let us not despise the days of small things either. The danger in having so much wonderful preaching and exhortation is that we can become either numb or judgemental.

Brethren there is a Pharissee in each one of us, and if it is not delivered to death daily it will spill out into everything we do. We must tread with the utmost wisdom when dealing with souls both here and in our daily lives. How do you know if someone on here has not just been saved, and is not even close being mature in the faith, yet then they get blasted for not being mature. Tis much like asking a newborn to walk and then kicking it because it cannot.

Wisdom is a part of holiness as is love, let us not forget that.

J-Bird,
you wrote:

Well, well. Look at how HOLY I am I don't do all these things that you do. I'm SOOOO spiritual and I'm a christian, not you, because I do this and this, and this, and don't do this. You are sooo decieved because you watched a dirty movie, or listen to Britney Spears your not really a christian because your not very holy.

And then you wrote:

Rom. 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest DOEST THE SAME THINGS.

First, I want to let you know that what I'm going to say, I say in love. I'm not angry at you, nor do I wish to promote any more quarreling in these forums. But I believe you need to be rebuked for the statements you have made on this thread.
To tell you the truth, the comments quoted above really grieve my heart. Not only have you hypocritically judged brother Washer without knowing his heart, his motives, having listened to any other sermons of his, or knowing anything about him, but you have quoted the very Scripture which condemns [i]you[/i] of doing the [i]same thing[/i] you accuse him of doing.

He needs to grow, and he will. Hopefully

Brother, this is a very condescending remark. It seems as if [i]you[/i] are the one with the "I'm more spiritual" attitude. I'm sorry, but this is shameful and plain wrong.

It seems to me, and this is just an [b]assumption[/b], that he's mixed up in his foundational doctines, as I have been, and I say this because It's easy to pick up on when you've been there. without the frim foundation of the doctine of justification all else is a farce. It sounds good what he's saying, but it's just not biblical.

"A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards."
Proverbs 29:11

"Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him."
Proverbs 29:20

"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath"
James 1:19

Please heed to the above verses. Rather than make an assumption, why not find out what he actually believes by going to his ministry webstite (www.heartcrymissionary.com) and listening to the sermons in which he speaks on justification? I would recommend listening to "The Greatest Text in the Bible" and "The Meaning of the Cross."

Listen, I can right a message that would have ministers doubting their own salvation, but what good is that. I think we should build peoples faith, and hope, and love by the word of God instead of condemn the justified. Just preach the cross and let God do the drawing.

"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified."
2 Corninthians 13:4-6

"For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
2 Peter 1:9-11

As these verses show, we are to examine ourselves. And the first epsitle of John is full of verses which distinguish between true and false converts.
And furthermore, the purpose of the sermon was not to make any believer doubt their salvation, but to make the many false converts see that they had no salvation to begin with. As Mr. Washer pointed out, there are thousands of professing Christians who live like the world and believe themselves to be saved simply because they came down to an altar and repeated a prayer. It's almost like catholic confession. And worse yet, we have many pastors today who, in their attempts to "build people's faith" and not "condemn the justified," are giving these professors of religion FALSE ASSURANCE of salvation.

easy believism? What the opposite of that? Hard believism? that don't even sound right, "easy believism". The legalists don't like that, but it is that simple.

Really? Is it easy to give up a lifestyle of sin? Is it easy to let go of your pride, and throw yourself at the mercy of Jesus? If it were easy, then it wouldn't be a narrow path, now would it?

I see a young man who's all but sealing his fate as a BAPTIST preacher.

You are absolutely correct. Such was the fate of the prophets. Such was the fate of the apostles. They boldly declared the truth in love, and dearly payed the price for it. Our own Lord and Savior was rejected, falsely accused, persecuted, and crucified. Do you expect to receive better treatment than the Son of God?

Perhaps you have misunderstood this sermon. You said his preaching reminded you of yourself. However, just because you preached with wrong motives doesn't mean Paul Washer has the same problem. Again, I say this in love brother, you have misjudged Washer, and have made assumption after assumption without knowing anything about his life. I would recommend listening to the message again, and listening to some of his other sermons. Pray about it, and examine the Scriptures to see if what he is saying is true. It's not about your opinions or experience--it's about what the Word of God says. Read 2 Corinthians 10:5. We are to bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.
Hope you do take this into consideration.
God bless you.

j-bird
what are the different jobs of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer?
love
andy

Paul could be too "spiritual" to come on here and read a petty message from such a pathedic little wretch like me. He might even laugh at this kind of post and blow it off as just another LOSER, Hes a no name.

Brother J,

Isn't it possible that you are projecting a personality of your own imagination onto Paul? I've never met the man, but odds are he wouldn't blow you off as another loser.

The forum has become a breeding ground for assumptions...perhaps it's understandable since we cant really see or hear each other as we discuss things. Yet for some reason everyone assumes everyone else is looking for trouble!

Usually this is just about the time a moderator has to come in and encourage patience...but I am hoping we can outgrow this suspicion of each other.

Like I said earlier...I see no conflict between a confidence in grace and a desire for holiness.

Certainly we can not think we can be holy as the Lord is holy. Both Isaiah and John saw the angels in the presense of God, seraphim who were sinnlessly perfect, trembling in awe and calling to each other "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord... Indeed Isaiah saw the seraphim covering their eyes...which could even indicate holy fear! Perhaps, even as glorified beings we will never be above the fear of God's transcendant holiness. So J-Bird, I think you and Isaiah, and John would see eye to eye in the high reverence you reserve alone for the Lord.

We always need reminding that our salvation is'Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost:

But having been washed we also need reminded that ... as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.' (1 Peter 1:15,16)

I really do not understand why this has to be an antagonistic either/or struggle. How can it be that a people who ... are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.' could not rejoice at the closeness of God and yet still tremble at that very same closeness? They are both sensible responses!

Blessings brothers,

MC

J-Bird,

You are right..only the Holy Spirit can teach us about grace.

Yet brother, if you knew more about me, you would see that without the Grace of God saving me you might see I am a scumbag that even you would be ashamed to know. If I thought it would be profitable to boast of my unworthiness I would...but it is not profitable. Just know that the desire to practice holiness does not always come out of self-righteousness, but sometimes out of gratitude for the grace and mercy shown. I believe you understand this.

I do not presume to teach anything about holiness...let alone how to obtain it through striving. (Not all striving is contrary to grace...) Others here are more qualified in this area...and I do mean that. Really it is embarrasing that I am even involved in this conversation...but I feel you are defaming men and carrying grudges against men you do not properly know.

Now to be fair, I also do not know Paul Washer or most of the people in these forums. I only know that we are called to walk in holiness. This is not merely a legal position...but a manifest expression to the world of the righteousness imputed within! And though I am a novice I do not mind admitting that I fail in the practice of it. So I will not presume to ask you or anyone to "be holy like me", ...which from here on out is only a straw man of your invention. However, I do ask that other Christians, such as yourself, not judge me, nor try to talk me out of holiness or mock the practice of holiness, as if the desire to be like Christ is pharisaical. This is most confusing to the young believer.

Not every attempt to imitate Christ is out of false motives brother! Surely to accuse the brethren so grieves the Holy Spirit. Preach against a prideful heart if you must, but never derride a man for wanting to live faithfully, honestly, and righteously! We can hope better of one another I'm sure.

Well I am sorry for any offense due to my flaws. The forum is tender and sensitive to the touch these days, so I'll leave off and let you drink in peace brother.

Blessings J-Bird and God bless you as you preach his Gospel!

MC

J- bird,
If God has graced a man with is Holy Spirit, what would be the outward expresion of that man by now having the Spirit of Christ?
love
andy

You know who Jesus preached the HARDEST to? The "religious" crowd. He called them all kinds of names and judged them. He called them all kinds of nice little word such as, "vipers", "hypocrites", and that's just what they were, and so are you, if you are trying to say your not as rotten and vile as those that claim to be christian but don't look and act as "spiritual" as you. Your just as filthy and wretched as they are brother. If?? your saved, your just a SINNER saved by Grace. That's all you are and that's all you'll ever be. Theres nothing holy about you, or Paul Washer, or the Pope, and if you say you are holy YOU my friend are a HYPOCRITE yes YOU. Brother you can twist scriptuer and try to throw scripture at me all day long but you know i'm right. Paul Washer, if he's reading this message, knows I'm right. Your preaching something that you know in your heart is wrong brother, and you need to get right with God, and I'm telling you that because I know where your at.

Dear J-Bird,

With all due respect, what are you talking about? Not once have I claimed to be more holy than anyone, and neither has Mr. Washer. I agree with you, I've been saved by the Grace of God, no doubt about that. There's nothing good in me--He has clothed me with HIS holiness, He's washed me with His blood and put on me white, spotless robes though all I deserved was his wrath. Growing in holiness means falling in love with Jesus and thus falling out of love with the world and everything it has to offer. It means coming to greater points of surrender in your life and finding more of your rest in Him. It means detesting sin more and more and growing in your desire to do those things which please the Father.

Now, you told me this:

Your preaching something that you know in your heart is wrong brother, and you need to get right with God, and I'm telling you that because I know where your at.

Is it wrong to warn a false convert that they're not saved? Many of the parables of Jesus were about false conversion. Scripture clearly calls us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
There's no sin in that; in fact, it's the most loving thing you can do. It's better for them to find out here on earth than on the Day of Judgment when it's too late. If you love someone you will tell them the truth in love. Jonathan Edwards, Joseph Alleine, John Wesley, Charles Finney, Charles Spurgeon, and a great deal of other men whom God has mightily used throughout history have preached on the very same topic that Paul Washer has preached on. Were they also wrong? Had they just not reached the level of spiritual maturity that you have reached? :-(

Jesus commanded us to judge righteous judgment (John 7:24). You have not done this. You have hastily and arrogantly judged brother Washer, his heart, and his MOTIVES without knowing anything about him. This is absolutely wrong, and it grieves my heart so much that you would do this. And you further refuse to listen to correction. This is sin, my brother, and you need to repent of this. You have an angry and critical tone in your posts, and the fact that you would even judge me by saying something like this: "If?? your saved..." saddens me even further.

I kindly ask you to please take some time to pray and fast and seek the Lord about this.
And again, I would recommend you listen to some of Paul Washer's sermons and take a look at his website.
May the Lord bless you and keep you.

id like people to listen to a sermon called

Reality in the Christian Life
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=4272

Here's Paul Washer in his own words in an interview on Way of The Master Radio:

[url=http://podcast.wayofthemasterradio.com/audio/podcasts/0806/WOTMR-08-10-06-Hour1.mp3]http://podcast.wayofthemasterradio.com/audio/podcasts/0806/WOTMR-08-10-06-Hour1.mp3[/url]

He actually comes across as rather quiet, almost shy.

Jason,

read your signature. Much clanging cymbals are coming out of you. There is much bitternes in your words. Read your posts. It is very obvious that you need healing. This really isn't about Paul Washer, but something else that is buried deep in Jason's heart that is now being exposed.

I agree much with Isaaih64. Please Jason, seek the Lord, allow God to examine your heart and heal you.

Will be praying for you.

J-bird,
would you agree, When the Spirit of God enters a man, the man will have new desires, and would one of these desires be to live a holy and acceptable life before his creator. That that man would hate his sin and would want to be like Jesus, and Talk like Jesus,, That the old things in his life would pass away and he would become a new creature?
would you also agree that he would be a man full of love for God and not of the things of the world?that he would trust God to save him from his sin and give him victory over his sin?
would you agree with these questions?
love andy

Dear brother Jason, I don't believe there's a person on this website who would refuse to show God's love to someone who is dirty, "unappealing", or enslaved to their sin. Of course Christ came to call not the healthy, but sinners. We're talking about the holiness we are to walk in AFTER conversion has taken place.

Are you paying attention to any of the Scriptures people are pointing out to you in love? Or do you consider this thread your own personal ranting space. . . ?

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for [color=993300]good works[/color], which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your [color=993300]good works[/color] and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. Matt. 5:16

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