We Need to Talk About Peace

We Need to Talk About Peace
by Scott Via

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"We are called to be Christ-like, and to follow Christ's teachings. But
we avoid talking about it and agree to disagree. We need to discuss it
very openly, and do it peacefully."
** ** ** ** ** **

I grew up in the Mennonite Church. I heard peace taught as a kid, but
just thought that was one of those Mennonite things. I went into the
Marine Corps at age 21, mostly because I was looking for adventure and
something meaningful to do. I knew the church wouldn't like it. They put
me on the inactive members list. I don't know if it was because I went
into the military or because I wasn't there anymore, but I understood.

After I got out of the Marines, I came straight back to Virginia. After
some time, I became more active in the church again. I read the
Confession of Faith and the referenced Bible verses. At the same time, I was
observing what was going on around me ?the fervor for war. I saw it on
TV, and I saw it among everyday people I met. And I reflected on what I
had experienced in the Marine Corps. I talked with my grandmother and
others. I came to finally realize that this belief is not just a
Mennonite idea. The more I read, the more I became convicted.

I am now fully convinced that a Christian cannot go to war. Peace is a
theme all through the Bible. We are called to be Christ-like, and to
follow Christ's teachings. But we avoid talking about it and agree to
disagree. We need to discuss it very openly, and do it peacefully. Our
beliefs can't be determined by personalities like Rush Limbaugh, or
politicians. Some Christians think I'm crazy. I've actually found that
veterans who are Christian are usually easier to talk to, because they have
seen what war is like.

I'm proud that our country has been gracious enough in providing the
opportunity for conscientious objection in recent times. I?d like to talk
to anyone who is now considering going into the military, whether or
not they are a Christian. If they are a Christian, we can study the
biblical teachings. I encourage them to not sign up until they have had time
to give it some thought and prayer. Even if someone is not Christian,
I'd like to talk to them before they go. Even if I don't talk them out
of it, I can at least give them some warning about what it is really
like.

I think that our Mennonite churches need to stop being so quiet about
peace. If we all are God's children, then we need to stop following what
politics and TV tell us. We need to concentrate within our
congregations and communities to be a witness like Jesus Christ asks us to be.

Scott Via

Lynside Mennonite Church, Lyndhurst, Va.

Please post responses or questions at
www.thirdway.com/talk

Any comments? Sounds like a good idea to me, and
I speak as one who stoped a bullet in 1966.

pastorfrin

I am now fully convinced that a Christian cannot go to war

Some of America’s founding fathers were Christians. They defended their country. It was called a war.

America has had a lot of Christians serve in its military over the years. I would hate to say that America’s founding fathers and patriot saints that answered the call of duty and those that were drafted were not Christians.

I’m all for peace.

I believe a military is necessary, our country (USA) would not have enjoyed the amount of peace it has had without one, but I also hate war.

Police officers are forced to kill at times.

Kill or be killed. Soldiers also face this predicament.

To have peace one must prepare for war.

We have had wars on this planet for thousands of years. I wish it was not true, but it is a fact. I believe there will always be some kind of war.

I pray for peace.

I am troubled by America’s reasoning for some of the wars it has waged.

I know a Christian that is in the military. He says it is his mission field.

I would tell anyone to pray long and hard, but to listen to God for direction.

I’m sure you all know the sixth commandment is “thou shall not murder”, not kill.

There is a time for everything under the sun.

To take a life is a terrible thing to live with, we should pray for those who have had to do it.

I don't want war, ever.

I pray for peace.

my 2 cents

TJ

TJ,

I wouldn't say that because you fight in a war you're not a Christian, but I would say look at what Jesus said and take it literally. Why do we take the other stuff in the Sermon on the Mount literally, but not the part about loving your enemies.

God has given the government the authority to punish evil doers, but Christians should be in the business of giving life not taking it.

Jordan

HomeFree89 wrote:
TJ,

I wouldn't say that because you fight in a war you're not a Christian, but I would say look at what Jesus said and take it literally. Why do we take the other stuff in the Sermon on the Mount literally, but not the part about loving your enemies.

God has given the government the authority to punish evil doers, but Christians should be in the business of giving life not taking it.

Jordan

Just because one is forced to shoot, and possibly kill someone, in defense of your family or country does not mean you hate them.

You can love your enemy, and still be compelled to stop them.

There are many old timers that will tell you they never hated the Nazis, but they felt it necessary to stop them.

I have an 87 year old preacher friend that said he said a prayer for them every night when he was in WW II. He hated what they were doing…not them.

TJ

Are you talking about pacifism? or nonresistance? There is a difference. Perhaps if you were to clarify it, one could have a profitable discussion.

ginnyrose

I agree with Krispy. We should not look for battles but we should never fail to protect the innocent.

Does our country always fight good and just wars? That can be debated.

Somewhere else I hope :-)

tjservant wrote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
TJ,

I wouldn't say that because you fight in a war you're not a Christian, but I would say look at what Jesus said and take it literally. Why do we take the other stuff in the Sermon on the Mount literally, but not the part about loving your enemies.

God has given the government the authority to punish evil doers, but Christians should be in the business of giving life not taking it.

Jordan

Just because one is forced to shoot, and possibly kill someone, in defense of your family or country does not mean you hate them.

You can love your enemy, and still be compelled to stop them.

There are many old timers that will tell you they never hated the Nazis, but they felt it necessary to stop them.

I have an 87 year old preacher friend that said he said a prayer for them every night when he was in WW II. He hated what they were doing…not them.

TJ

Why did Jesus stop Peter from protecting Him? This was a practical outworking of Jesus' teaching that Peter hadn't caught onto.

"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." -Matt. 26:52

Can you really love someone while bombing or shooting them? I'm talking about true love that has a concern for their souls.

Jordan

Brothers and Sisters,
Instead of going by emotions and the teachings of man, let us simply look at the words of Jesus.
Please read them and then read them again. Leave
out what anyone else has said, and listen to what
He is saying. Lets allow the Holy Spirit to teach
us, He is well able.

Matthew 10:1-42
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. [2] Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; [3] Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; [4] Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. [5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. [8] Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. [9] Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, [10] Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. [11] And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. [12] And when ye come into an house, salute it. [13] And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. [14] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. [15] Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
[16] Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. [17] But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; [18] And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. [19] But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. [20] For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. [21] And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. [22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. [23] But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. [24] The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. [25] It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? [26] Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. [27] What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. [28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [29] Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. [30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. [31] Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. [32] Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. [33] But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. [34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. [35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. [36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. [37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. [38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. [39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
[40] He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. [41] He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. [42] And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 18:33-37
Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? [34] Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? [35] Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? [36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. [37] Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

What kingdom do we belong to and who is our king?

His Love To All,

pastorfrin

That's really good!

Can you really love someone while bombing or shooting them? I'm talking about true love that has a concern for their souls.

I can not answer as far as military and war are concerned, but his question is of great concern to me. I will answer with all seriousness.

I don’t know. I pray to never personally find out.

I strive, in my walk, to be more like Him. I believe I love all of God’s children.

I would be seriously grieved to ever be responsible for the harm of another, let alone the taking of a life.

I pray this is something I never have to face.

Have you ever been in a situation where your life was in danger from the hand of another?

I have.

How about a situation that involved a friend or family member?

I have.

I was lucky and the situation dissolved before anything as unfortunate as the loss of life occurred.

I was not a Christian at the time of these events.

I know what I was prepared to do then.

I am now a Christian. I believe I love all of God’s Children.

I don’t know that I could watch a love one come to harm without trying to stop it by whatever means necessary.

I pray to never find out.

TJ

I wanted to say that I appreciated pastorfrin's contemplative attitude toward's this subject.

Brethren I feel that we American Christians are at a unique crossroads. There comes a point when 'defending the innocent' slides into defending a way of life...and eventually this may degenerates into a sense of pride that we must live better then other nations even if others must die for this entitlement. I'm not saying where on this slide we are but only that we might not always be able to be the strong that protect others...indeed we may need protection someday. (I wonder if some of those whom America has protected will remember America in darker times.)

Wars have both political and violent elements...two worldy elements that the Church has put increasing hope in to ease their fears of declining...and two elements which will bring tremendous strain on the proclamation of the Church. For my own part I have become wary of political activism, or even political enthusiasm, for the Christian. In the earliest years of the faith the church fathers would have apologetic exchanges with public officals but they themselves would refrain from seeking insider participation...instead being an outside proclamation speaking boldy the light of God's moral law into civil affairs. Some have intended to do this in this country...but many have far exceeded those boundaries.

Contrary to Walter Kronkite's crusade this is not a problem just for the conservative right but also for the left. For instance, Jim Wallace, the leading liberal 'evangelical' in America gave the Democratic repsonse to President Bushes State of the Union adress, and Rick Warren invited Sentaor Obama to speak politically at his church. No more can the Liberal Christian rightfully criticize the conservative Christian of being too "Constantinized". They too ride the back of the beast.

And besides political entanglements that effect the Christian's position on war there is also the comfortableness we Christians show towards many displays of violence in our entertainment culture. This past week there was an Ultimate Fighting Championship event in my hometown...the larget ticket gate ever sold at the Nationwide Arena.. At the end of the bloody knuckle tooth flying event the bruised face-swollen 'champion' was handed the microphone where he triumphantly gave thanks to Jesus Christ 'who died for his sins' and to the American GI 'who dies for his freedom.' I believe this fella (a rather large fella at that!) was a sincere Christian, but such talk makes me think America has become the revival of Roman spirit...and our mainstream Christianity is endanger of becoming it's state paganism. I do not say that to be clever but out of sadness...that a people whose feel are shod with Gospel of peace run so easily to watch and even participate in displays brutality and inhumanity...if only in the liesure of our recreation.

Regarding the military, I am not worthy to critique the American soldier. These men and women, and their families have given pieces of themselves that I will never fully understand...I will not slight their sacrifice by becoming conveniently moralistic or philosophic about a war that has become unpopular. My questions are not directed at the United States of America, which must...as nations do...have a right to pursue security with acceptance of the consequences of her policy choices.

My questions are for the Christians in N. America. With all of the hub bub to be socially relevant, in song, dress, and behavior... we need to be reminded that the earliest Christians were highly sectarian from their 'host' societies. While governments must wield the sword, it is not the role of the church to cheer them on but to be a light...a city set on a hill that pricks the conscience of the worldy rulers. This contradisctinction is what defines the Christian from the politician and the soldier. Our battle is not to kill flesh and blood, but to defeat darkness with light. It is a risky paradox...and one that I am trying to understand. If we forsake this paradox of proclamation, how can the darkness have light? Indeed might our participation very well affirm that all men, even Christians, are ultimately bound to devilish principalities and powers?

I am reminded of Tertullian's public rebuff to the political powers that were violently persecuting the church. He pointed out that we resist your evil not by violence but by dying. This is why we are called God's sheep, because we are slaughtered.

Challenging...almost surreal words for sure. They are certainly beyond me right now...especially as a man who would be wiling to die in preserving the Earthly security for my family...but perhaps less willing to die to preserve their purity... this City set on a Hill. But as America becomes more and more manifestly divergent from the Kingdom of God I wonder how long it will be before I will have to finally let go of this world.

Blessings and grace saints,

MC

TJ,

I would try to stop someone of they were trying to hurt my family, but I wouldn't kill them.

Check out the book, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? by David Bercot. It shows that the early Christians took Jesus' words literally and they and their families died because of it.

We have been influence by Augustine's beliefs on this matter instead of taking Jesus's words and just living them.

Jordan

Are we talking about the same thing?

I agree, and I would not try to kill, but in the heat of battle trying to stop a psycho from harming my family, I’m just not sure what would happen.

Once again let me say that I do not support needless killing, but being an EMT working on the bad side of town, I have seen situations that are not typical. There is a time for everything.

Check out the book, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? by David Bercot

Does this book say I should “try” to stop someone from harming my family, but to let us all die if that cannot be done without “permanently hurting” the psycho?

I would never intentionally “kill”, but I have seen people that took two tazer shots and four large police officers to subdue.

I’m not talking about being willing to die for Christ, or martyrdom. I’m talking about defending my family from drug crazed psychos.

I don't know if I could stop trying to help.

Are we talking about the same thing?

Peace be with you.

TJ

Hi TJ,

I don't have time to answer you right now because I'm leaving for several days.

God bless, Jordan :-D

Brothers and Sisters,
First, let me assure you that this discussion is in no way intended to judge anyone. I am not judging any one that has served, or is currently serving in the armed forces.
My dad served during WWII going in at Normandy, and I served in Vietnam. We both gave a part of ourselves both physically and mentally, my dad shrapnel, my-self a bullet.
I will never forget the pain that was in his eyes, when one of us kids would ask him about the war, he never responded with a verbal answer.
The day I was leaving, my dad, with tears in his eyes and a broken voice said, son I fought so my sons would not have to fight now you must fight so your sons will not have to. Do you hear the futileness of such a statement?
To this day I wonder if he really believed what he was really saying to me. I was never able to discuss this with him as he passed while I was still in the service.
There are so many emotions that are stirred in a discussion about war and peace that they,
Usually, take over and scripture is set aside as we argue our points. Let us try and keep to scripture and leave out all the what- ifs that our emotions stir-up.

Myth #1 Peace comes through war.

To justify war many use the statement, just look at the Old Testament, God was a God of war and he does not change. Yes it is true, God does not change, but his ways are totally up to him.
Isaiah 55:8-11
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. [10] For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: [11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The Lord God established himself in the Old Testament as the deliverer of his people.
2 Samuel 22:2
And he said, The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;

Psalm 18:2
The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Acts 7:35
This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

Every time they tried to go it alone their enemies would prevail over them, only through His deliverance would they prevail.
In the New Testament the Lord chose to deliver all people both Jew and Gentile through His Son Jesus Christ. Search your bible and see it is not by war that he does this but through peace.

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Ephes. 2:11-22
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. [18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. [19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Something we must always remember about war, it is fought to either keep or take something that belongs to this world.
Luke 11:21-23
When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: [22] But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. [23] He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

Matthew 6:19-21
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: [20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: [21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

In Rev. 13 the beast is given power to make war against the saints and to prevail over them. Power is also given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Dear saints beware, the one given power to prevail in war is not of God, he is only being used of God to fulfill His purpose.
The saints are warned by the Lord in Rev. 13:7-10 not to be a part of it.
Rev. 13:7-10
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. [8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. [9] If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

If any man have an ear to hear let him hear.
Paul says:
Romans 8:5-6
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

2 Cor. 10:3-5
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) [5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Jesus says:
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Again I ask, what kingdom do we belong to, and who is our king?

Love and Peace to All,

pastorfrin

[b]I will never forget the pain that was in his eyes, when one of us kids would ask him about the war, he never responded with a verbal answer.[/b]

Brother, this reminded me of a Keith's Daniel testemony about his father, you can hear the message here: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4227&commentView=itemComments]My Godly Father[/url]
I believe it will be great encouragement to you.

And thank you for your last post and the Scriptures given.

Myth #1 Peace comes through war.

This can be very true if we change the battlefield. Yes, peace comes through war, but war deep in heart with personal sin of everyone. If there is a peace, God will give us peace around us.

Again I ask, what kingdom do we belong to, and who is our king?

Yes brother, we should consider this question well. Dealing with this question I think we should solve many so called dilemmas.

Blessings.
Kire

I want to add few more thoughts.

To justify war many use the statement, just look at the Old Testament,

Yes, we can look at OT. The history of king Asa is very dear to my heart.
I think we can learn very profitable lesson from there about peace and war and what is that that brings peace.

2Ch 14:2 [b]And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the LORD his God: [/b]
2Ch 14:3 For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves:
2Ch 14:4 [b]And commanded Judah to seek the LORD God[/b] of their fathers, and to do the law and the commandment.
2Ch 14:5 Also he took away out of all the cities of Judah the high places and the images: [b]and the kingdom was quiet before him. [/b]
2Ch 14:6 And he built fenced cities in Judah: for the land had rest, [b]and he had no war in those years; because the LORD had given him rest.[/b]
2Ch 14:7 Therefore he said unto Judah, Let us build these cities, and make about them walls, and towers, gates, and bars, while the land is yet before us; [b]because we have sought the LORD our God, we have sought him, and he hath given us rest on every side.[/b] So they built and prospered.

To come alongside with Scripture...

Isa 30:1 ¶ Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
9 That this [is] a rebellious people, lying children, children [that] will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
12 ¶ Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:

Here we learn of a generation that rejects the Holy One of Israel...

Hear the promise of rest in Scripture...

Isa 30:15 ¶ For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Because they did not repent...judgement comes...

Isa 30:27 ¶ Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning [with] his anger, and the burden [thereof is] heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and [there shall be] a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing [them] to err.

Do you hear what war brings to those who reject the Lord? "And His breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of futility; and (there shall be) a bridle in the jaws of the people causing (them) to err."

God allows Satan to sift the nation with the sieve of futility which causes them to err.

After the fire of His breath has gone out to destroy...what is the result?

Isa 30:18 ¶ And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD [is] a God of judgment: blessed [are] all they that wait for him.
19 For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.
20 And [though] the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This [is] the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

The Lord waits for those who suffer the affliction that they themselves have brought upon themselves, for their cry to Him to save them from this adveristy, from this affliction...

And then once again their is a remnant willing to listen to the word of God that is near them...and rest comes to those who listen.

How many in this nation reject the Holy One, look around you, they all cry for peace through war, and for what gain? To preserve the peverse generation of this day. Do our hearts cry out like Lot's? Are our souls vexed because of what we see and hear around us? Or do we take part and cast our lots in among those who are evil?

In Christ
Jeff

Prior to reading through this thread I held to the position that there are such things as 'righteous' wars, WWII being the best example I would have given. My position was that had I lived in that era I would have joined up and felt justified in doing so.

I think I am changing my mind. Thank you for a very thought provoking discussion. Thank you all for discussing this issue with such decoram!

One thing I am not certain about. The Vietnam war was fought using the draft. Scripture tells us to submit to governmental authority. I assume the answer to this is to say that we are to submit so long as we are not told to commit sin. This is similar to wives submitting to husbands even when they are still living in darkness. Still, I am not aware of any scripture that directly indicates this 'escape clause'. This is not to say I disagree with the reasoning, just that I don't yet know how I might respond if I were drafted by my country to go to war. Especially if the war looked as justifiable as WWII looked from man's perspective.

It is a good thing to think on these things as the day may yet come where we are confronted with these issues for real.

In His Love

Doug

Hi pastorfrin...

Myth #1 Peace comes through war.

What would you consider a "good soldier?" In your opinion (or belief), is it EVER justified to defend your family or country? In your opinion, is it ever right for a person to join the military?

I am not questioning your beliefs. However, I am interested in learning what your beliefs are and your rationale for such beliefs. I know some Mennonites and Society of Friends people who are quite "political" in their efforts to stay "non-political."

I must assert that pacifism comes quite easy in nations as blessed and secure as the United States, Canada or the UK. But what about believers in nations where persecution is very real and extreme? History has shown us that persecution for faith can easily increase in nations of pacifists.

Don't forget: Paul used the political and legal system of the Romans to take the Gospel into Rome (then capital of the world). He "appealed unto Caesar" -- citing his Roman citizenship -- rather than allowing himself to be released.

I am getting married soon. I have often questioned the Lord about what I would do if my future wife and future children would be placed in danger. How would I react? Should I, like the Amish, simply turn the other cheek while my children were raped and murdered? Should I simply struggle to detain while they fight to the death?

I am interested in this issue with an open heart. And I am quite interested in learning the various views from pure pacifists, semi-pacifists and non-pacifists. Our allegience, of course, if first to Christ. But do you believe that we have any sort of duty for our country? Is our nation worth fighting for? Are there any causes worth fighting for?

:-)

ccchhhrrriiisss, hope this answers some of your
questions.

The Council of Nicea: by Gavin Finley
THE PATTERN OF CHURCH-STATE
COMPROMISE IN CHRISTIANITY
WAS SET IN 325 A.D. AT NICAEA.
Compromise is an awful thing.
This is a well known fact to those who know of the God of the Bible. Warnings from the Old Testament prophets concerned idolatry with other gods. In the New Testament the Apostle Paul continued along the same line. He warned about mixing "the cup of Christ with the cup of devils". (1Cor.10:21)
As people who bear the Name of Christ we have been instructed to keep ourselves undefiled by the world. And our church leaders have an even greater responsibility to keep the faith in holiness and teach the pure doctrine that was first delivered to the saints. As representatives of Jesus Christ and His Body on earth we dare not make any dealings whatsoever on His behalf or on behalf of His church with the principalities and powers of this world. We see many such dealings in which church leaders 'sell out' the sovereign things of God to the princes of this world. These are impudent acts of disobedience. We dare not have anything to do with such acts of presumption. Because those who enter into such profane dealings will most certainly be brought to an awful judgment.
Alas, such scruples do not seem be a concern for many church leaders. Down through church history they have presumed to set themselves up as representatives and brokers of Christ here on earth before the world. Then in brazen self will they proceed to sell the holy things of God down the river. The holy things of God are then re-engineeered, re-packaged, and sold to the lowest bidder at the tables of Mammon. In this manner the Name of YHVH, our Judeo-Christian God is brought down to dirt level. This is the compromise that degrades our faith and brings grief to His Congregation of God.
What is wrong with this mixture of the holy with the profane? The answer is quite straightforward. The Body and blood of Christ is holy. The Name of our Lord Jesus is to be lifted up. It is not an ecclessiastical franchise to be bought and sold at the round tables of earthly politics. Nor is it to be sold in the seedy bazaars of and world trade.
The Jesus we love and serve is above all those things. His name is holy. He is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. He is the God who became incarnate in Jesus Christ. He is to be consecrated in our hearts and lives. And His Body, the Congregation of YHVH-God, (the Church), is holy too. Or we should be. But the compromises of established Christendom, a body of people who supposedly follow Christ are many and varied. And the sad story goes on and on. Indeed ecclesiastical compromises with the princes of this world have continued unabated throughout the past 1700 years of church history.
How does this compromise happen? Christians enter into the Eternal Covenant they have with Christ. This is all very wonderful and good. But many Christian believers do not realise that by inviting Jesus into their life they have married Him. He is now their Husband, Protector, and Providence. In Christ they have entered into a holy and exclusive blood covenant relationship. They are now in a covenant relationship to the sovereign God, the Holy One of Israel, the Prince of Peace.
When Jesus began His ministry He was led of the Holy Spirit into the wilderness. There He faced three temptations. These were intended to defile His faith with God by adding a commitment to 1. the world, 2. the flesh and 3. the devil. Jesus passed these 3 tests. If He had failed He would have a defiled Himself and become a double agent for the world, a double agent for his own flesh, and a double agent for Lucifer, the angel of selfism.
How about us? How has the Body of Christ fared when faced with these same three temptations to compromise? Does the church defile herself with accomodation to the flesh for example?
Well we don't have to look very far to see the church even today is covering up and even "normalising" fornication and homosexuality inside the church. Most of the church accepts the wholesale abortion of millions of our unborn babies. Then we see church leaders brazenly invoking the Name of Christ as they try to sanctify "same sex marriages" between homosexuals and lesbians. This is truly amazing. The God whose Name they call upon and whom they suppose OK's the ordination of Sodomites is none other than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is the very same God who rained fire and brimstone on the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah! These church leaders are truly playing with fire. And unless they repent of this outrage they will surely get burned!
How about the covenants the church makes with the principalities and powers of the world system? Well again we don't have to look far to see where the church has behaved in the very same manner as Hosea's wife Gomer. The church has pursued her lovers and departed from Christ, her Husband, just as Gomer did with Hosea and Israel did with YHVH, the Holy One of Israel. And the church has made a practice of entering into deep carnal covenant relationships with political princes who are strangers to Christ. She forgets her true Husband, her Betrothed. And she accepts protection under the sword of her thorny secular lovers, the princes of this world.
This abnormal stste of affairs is considered quite normal. Through the centuries the church has accepted this earthly protection offered by secular political powers. At the same time she still claims total and absolute loyalty to Christ. These worldly rulers have typically presented themselves to the church as "Defenders of the faith". Thus the church has in effect married the political princes of this world. The church, thus established, still maintains that she is married to Christ as well!
How about our compromise with the devil? Again we see all too readily just how deeply the church has been compromised. Lucifer, who is the god of "self" practically runs this narcissistic, materialistic, and hedonistic culture. God's people in the western church have bought into this program of Luciferian selfism in a big way. "It's all about me" is the catchphrase of our time. And inside the church we buy the devil's lie that we can "Write our own (selfist Luciferian) ticket with God". No need to walk by faith being led by the Holy Spirit. No need to consult what God has said in the holy scriptures. We set the agenda here below. We are "little gods". We call the shots. We are 'sovereign' in our own right.
This is the religion which "sells" on the street today. This is the seedy debauched Christianity that pays its agents, the religious vendors of Mammon, so very handsomely.
God help us.
At His temptation Jesus answered the devil with these final words.
Pray God they may become our words as well.
"Get thee behind me Satan,
It is written,
Thou shalt worship the Lord your God,
And Him only shalt thou serve. -Mat.4:10
As a church, and as the congregation of God, we are truly presumptuous. In Christ's Name we are all too willing to make blood covenant pledges with the earthly powers of this world. How can we enter into blood covenant with angels of darkness when we have already made blood covenant commitment to Christ and to His Eternal Covenant? How can we put one foot in Jerusalem and the other foot in Babylon? Will holy history forever allow us to remain as agents for both?
Clearly this is quite impossible. Such duplicity and double dealing will eventually lead down a low road and into a terrible darkness.
It will become treason against the Kingdom of God. (John 5:43, 2Thes.2:3)
Jesus said,
No man can serve two masters.........
You cannot serve God and Mammon. -Mat.6:24
Just where does this sort of double dealing end up? The pathway of compromise will eventually lead to the ultimate betrayal, the epic future deal of Dan.9:27. This will lead on to the climax of humanistic wickedness, the 'abomination of desolation'.
This Dan.9:27 deal will start out with international intigue. It will call for a surrender of Israel's holy land and the church's holy faith and doctrine. And for what? For the sake of "peace and security" or "safety"? Apparently this will be the motive. But are we not safest when we are true to Christ? Is not Christ Jesus our covering, our fortress, our Protector? (Psalm 91)
Alas, Bible prophecy shows us clearly where all this compromise by God's people will end up. The climax of this age will see the people of God sitting down and making covenant with a man representing the key political powers of this world. He will be a person who initially appears to be a very wonderful global peacemaker. He will pledge to act as a protector of God's Judeo-Christian people. But this will be a lie and a trap. Three and a half years later he will break the covenant. (Dan.9:27b) At that time he will be possessed and be revealed as "the beast".
If we think about this final seven year covenant for a moment we realize that it will be the church's second and final great tragedy of compromise. It will be Nicea phase two!
This man in whom they put their trust will betray them. He will betray them grievously. Many of those who started out supporting this peacemaker will not turn back to Christ at this point. They have gone too far into compromise with him. The road they have chosen will lead them on into apostasy and perdition. This whole story has been prophesied in the books of Daniel and Revelation and by the Words of Jesus Himself. (John 5:43)
What are the consequences of compromise? Compromise alone is what brings grief and tribulation to the people of God. Our God is a faithful and true to the covenant He makes with his people. He is quite able to protect His people from their enemies. But He cannot do this when they have "two timed" Him and made other separate covenants with Him and the powers of darkness! They are no longer entirely in His hands! We have become double agents in a spiritual war! Michael, the guardian angel of God's people.(Dan.10:21) As usual, he is doing all he can for us and for Israel. But what if the evil angels that our angel Michael is battling have been loosed by us, the people of God? What then?
This future historic surrender of the sovereign things of God to a profane ruling prince is laid out quite clearly for us in Dan.9:27. This is what starts the drama of the final 7 years. This is the much discussed 70th week of Daniel.
The Dan.9:27 scripture, brought to us at great cost by our dear faithful prophet Daniel tells us the outcome of this epic compromise. This 'prince' with whom God's people will enter into covenant will turn out to be a false messiah. Three and a half years into this 7 year "covenant" this "prince who is to come" will put a stop to the true worship of our God. He will replace worship of the God of Israel with an unspeakable abomination. -Mat.24:15-21 He will then be "revealed" as "the beast" and set up his 666 worship/financial system. Along with the ten global rulers the antichrist will then proceed to double-cross the very same religious double dealers who had earlier compromised the cup of Christ at his table. They will have bent over backwards in order to accommodate the powers of this world. But God is not mocked. Those who have corrupted God's Word will reap what they have sown. They will be subjected to an awful judgement. (Rev.17:16-18)
THE COUNCIL OF NICEA MARRIES THE CHURCH TO ROME AND
ESTABLISHES A PATTERN OF COMPROMISE THAT WILL GO ON
TO ITS CLIMACTIC CONCLUSION IN THE END-TIME DRAMA.
Where did this pattern of compromise and dealmaking with earthly powers begin? Certainly not during the first three centuries of church history. At that time the church was under persecution. Christians were being executed in many ways including crucifixion and being thrown to the lions in the Roman arena. But nearly 17 centuries ago the persecutions against the church stopped. In 308 A.D. The Roman emperor Constantine had enacted the Edict of Milan. Then in 325 A.D. the elders of the Christian church received a summons to come to Nicea and sit at table with the Emperor Constantine personally. What a power trip and a power lunch that was! This historic meeting would come to be known as the Council of Nicea.
In terms of obtaining political protection and temporal power and influence for the church the Council of Nicea was a coup for those church leaders who were willing to compromise. But the spiritual fallout from this meeting was deadly. It can only be described as an awful tragedy. It was the first and truly the epic compromise for the church. The Council of Nicea set the pattern for the church-state compromise which continues to this day.
Let's pause for a moment here and take a closer look at just what happened at the Nicea accord. Before the Council of Nicea 10 Roman Caesars in a row had persecuted the early church. In the waning years of the third century these persecutions came to a vicious peak under the deadly pogroms of the Emperor Diocletian. After the his death the new Roman Caesar Constantine came to power. It was in 308 A.D. that Constantine issued the Edict of Milan. This effectively called a halt to the persecutions of Christians. In 325 A.D. Constantine went a step further. He invited the Christian bishops from all over the Roman Empire to what would come to be known as the Council of Nicea.
A lot of good issues were settled at that time. Resolutions were made against the Arian and other heresies. Here too was forged the Nicene Creed. But the political result of this epic meeting was an accord of peace between Roman Imperial power and the church. The church would not be the same afterwards. The church in effect married the Roman political powers. The Council of Nicea would forge a church-state accord which continues right up to this present day.
The church was not the only party to profit from the deal. It was a savvy political move for the Roman Caesar as well. People were getting bored with the soap opera of the gods of Greco-Roman mythology. Christianity under persecution was naturally on the ascendancy. Indeed this idea of a 'Saviour God' was beginning to capture the imagination of the masses. Constantine had the words, "god our saviour" inscribed on the shields of his soldiers. This new standard was a proven morale booster for his men and a battle winner as well. Then too the Roman persecutions against God's people, (as Balaam had discovered with ancient Israel), had actually been counterproductive. -Num.24 For every Christian martyred ten more new converts to Christianity popped up. These Christians and their new faith were invincible. The only hope of defeating them, again as Balaam found out, was to get them compromised with evil. Then their angels were unable to cover them. As long as the Christ' witness/martyrs were standing for the faith under deadly persecution, (as they tend to do), then the Christians had the glory. They had the glory, - and the emperors pagan priests did not. Christians were beginning to get sympathy from the crowds as they went up into the arena. In short, pagan religion was letting the emperor down badly in the glory and awe department. Truly the "Emperor had no clothes". It was time for the secular ruler of the world to trade up to better religious coverings. The question Constantine asked himself was this. Would the Christian leaders come to sit down and talk turkey with him? He sent out the invitations and waited.
Well some did come. And many did not. The deal he offered the responding Christian bishops at that time was to powershare. It was a very lucrative deal. He basically offered the church leaders an opportunity to "get in on the ground floor" and to divide up the rulership into church and state rulerships sectors. Here we have the iron and clay of Daniel's image at the legs and feet. Constantine offered Christianity "most favoured religion" status.
What was the result of this meeting at Nicea? "Many", or a quorum, if you will, of the Christian leaders took the bait. The result was that Christianity was "established". And it was thereby set up for compromise. Inevitably it was quickly corrupted as pagan religious leaders saw what power, influence and lucre could be gained by taking on the new name "christian". That maneuver gave them a license from the state to practice pagan religion as before. Only now they could do it inside the established Christian church. These pagan leaders, with a few adjustments to their religious repetoir came right on into the established church and took their places there. They brought with them their pagan beliefs and agenda, their hierarchical church structured programs and pagan temple architecture. For fear of the wrath of Constantine Christian elders decided not to make a fuss about all this. And so the rot set in.
Meanwhile, back home in the country, the true witness of Christ now became difficult for those faithful saints who did not approve or in many cases did not know what the church leaders had done. Persecutions followed for those Christians who did not "go up" to Nicea. Trouble followed for those who for reasons of holiness would not agree with this ecclesiastical political power grab. Many in the pilgrim church would have nothing to do with entering into any covenant with the Roman Caesar. Such faithful believers have existed in all time periods both in national Israel and in the church. They continue with us today. Their concern is holiness before God and being true to the faith. They are very very careful when it comes to dealings with political and religious agents of this present evil age. In scripture these faithful pilgrims are called, the "elect" or "the saints" or the "called out"/ekklesia/congregation/church of God. They can be found both inside and outside the established church. And they have existed in all ages.
Nicea was a watershed in church history. What was the result of this epic church-state deal in the west? Well as the centuries wore on, and particularly after Charlemagne came to power in 800 A.D. a paganised hierarchical christianity emerged. It was hardly worthy of the name of Christ. Only those who knew Latin, (the language of ancient Rome) could access the holy scriptures. This was a great and awful tragedy. All this darkness! Meanwhile, in the medieval villages our Jewish brethren were freely teaching their children to read the Torah in the Hebrew schools. And in the Arab nations their time of pre-eminence had come. They too were free to read from the Koran. Not so in "Christendom". Over in Europe the masses of so called "Christendom" were denied access to the Word of God. They were kept "manageable" by being ground down into the dirt of an ignorant peasantry. The 1,000 years that followed the Council of Nicea would see Europe or Christendom Europe go into the "Dark Ages". Spiritual gnorance was everywhere and in the spiritual vacuum fear and superstition emerged to haunt the forests and squalid medieval towns of Europe. The 1300's saw plague or the "black death" take the lives of half of the population of Europe. The Moors were ruling in the south of Spain and would do so until 1492. In the early 1500's over on the eastern borders of Christendom the Turks were closing in on Vienna.
Meanwhile, in the context of these critical events a German printer named Gutenburg developed a printing press using moveable type. As Martin Luther made his stand the scriptures were being printed in Germany. That would speed the reform in the church in central Europe. The 1500's also saw English evangelicals Tyndale and Coverdale following up on Wycliffe's work. They translated and printed the holy scriptures into English shipping them back across the channel for the English common man. These events saw the Light of God's holy Word go forth. And the lights began to turn on in Europe. The Renaissance broke forth in Italy. After a thousand years of darkness, a darkness that began with that awful compromise at Nicea, things were beginning to turn around.
Did all the church go up to Nicea to become the established religious power? Not at all. The true pilgrim church went underground. See the book 'The Torch of the Testimony' by John W. Kennedy of India. There were very few records preserved of the pilgrim church. And the things written about them by the established church was naturally not very complimentary. But they re-emerged among the reformers and the anabaptists in the 1400's. After a millennium of darkness, Gutenberg's printing press and the work of Bible translators brought the first glimmers of the gospel light back into mainstream Europe.
WILL THE FUTURE DAN.9:27 COVENANT WITH THE ANTICHRIST BE NICEA PHASE 2?
So much for church deals with secular kings and princes. Can we learn from this earlier church folly? Pray God we shall. Because the church may well be asked to revisit Nicea, at least in spirit, if not in the same geographical location. The church state deal we have at present is not compromised enough for the emerging secular powers of the New World Order. The coming global peacemaker, who is probably even now working behind the scenes will ask the established church to go even further into pagan and humanistic admixture. To participate, to profit, or even be licensed to operate legally, the church denominations may well be asked to mix the cup of Christ with all the other religions of the world. This concession will be called for in the interests of "unity", "inclusivism" and "world peace". This endtime renegotiating of the Nicean Accord to embrace not just Christianity but also Buddhism, Islam, Wicca and animism may well be on the agenda.
There is nothing new under the sun. Ah, yes. As the endtime drama opens up we may well be asked to "renegogiate" the Nicea deal. It will be 'decision time' for many Christian believers. But our God knows all about this.
He has told us this ahead of time. His desire is for His people to be forewarned and for us to be prepared in Him. He has made abundant provision for our witness. When we read the Great Commission" we see that it is actually an article of blood covenant promise of blessing and provision. It has been given to us by Jesus Christ Himself. God has promised to be with His people right up to the end of this evil age. By His divine grace and favour He stands ready to lead us on into a deeper covenant relationship with Him.
Through all this God has not forgotten His covenant people. He Himself will raise up a standard for the peoples. (Isa.62:10) The good news is that even in the midst of this end-time declension and apostasy God will be calling out His people once again. The trumpets will be sounding forth the alarm. God will be calling His people to assembly. They will be crying out to Him. Indeed there will be a magnificent, powerful, and holy end-time revival!
Now is the day of salvation.
Now is the time to draw near to Him.
Grace and shalom to all the saints.
________________________________________

I always will have a problem with threads and ideas such as this one. Many people here start quoting scripture and claiming "peace," but forget that the whole idea of peace is a concept of the world, not a concept of the Bible. The concept of "peace" that everyone tosses about is a fantasy. Scripture very plainly teaches it is never going to happen.

To paraphrase, why are their wars among us? Scripture very starkly teaches that we live in a fallen world and the leanings of the human heart is toward evil. Because of this, there will not be peace. There can never be peace until Jesus returns as reigning King.

So what is the Christian response? In my opinion, it is to follow the example and teachings that Christ gave, and to follow the full counsel of the Bible. The counsel of the Bible never tells us we will have peace in the terrestrial realm. With this in mind, I say never expect it while on the earth. To do anything else is to fall prey to false thinking, and to believe something non-scriptural. This is not thinking morbidly. It is thinking realistically. Reality is what it is, not what you hope it will be. Failure to grasp reality puts yourself at peril. Expect crime, expect evil, expect war...realizing complely that the only solution is in Jesus Christ.

I do not say these things flippantly. I am a 60% disabled veteran. I have asked and re-asked myself the same kinds of questions brought up here. There is only one answer, which is the one I have already stated.

Let us not forget that we are in much of the mess we are in right this moment because of the failure of the church. Islam could never have existed if the church had fulfilled its primary purpose of spreading the gospel, and not wedding itself to the world. The United States is in the mess it is in right now because of the failure of the church. Before worrying about world peace, we really need to be concerned about the sick condition of the church we are in right here.

Brother Chris wrote:

But what about believers in nations where persecution is very real and extreme? History has shown us that persecution for faith can easily increase in nations of pacifists.

Brother Yun in Heavenly Man or Back to Jerusalem testifies that Americans are always praying that the government in China would fall. Then he said, "we do not pray that way." We have grown strong because of the persecution. We pray that God is glorified in all things.

Maybe freedom is a lie promoted by Satan...

What do you think?

In Christ
Jeff

Maybe the Lord is more glorified by one who is willing to go to jail rather then participate in war.

I often feel that war is used by God so that those who participate would cry out to Him. That He might show one the power of salvation...

In Christ
Jeff

I always will have a problem with threads and ideas such as this one. Many people here start quoting scripture and claiming "peace," but forget that the whole idea of peace is a concept of the world, not a concept of the Bible.

Peace is given to those who enter His rest.

The world has a fallen view of that precept "peace." Scripture truly does bring "peace" because our Lord is the King of Peace.

In Christ
Jeff

tjservant wrote:

Are we talking about the same thing?

I agree, and I would not try to kill, but in the heat of battle trying to stop a psycho from harming my family, I’m just not sure what would happen.

Once again let me say that I do not support needless killing, but being an EMT working on the bad side of town, I have seen situations that are not typical. There is a time for everything.

Check out the book, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? by David Bercot

Does this book say I should “try” to stop someone from harming my family, but to let us all die if that cannot be done without “permanently hurting” the psycho?

I would never intentionally “kill”, but I have seen people that took two tazer shots and four large police officers to subdue.

I’m not talking about being willing to die for Christ, or martyrdom. I’m talking about defending my family from drug crazed psychos.

I don't know if I could stop trying to help.

Are we talking about the same thing?

Peace be with you.

TJ

TJ,

It sounds like you have seen some horrible things. I can see why it would be hard for you to see were I'm coming from and I don't want to push me beliefs on you. I feel like I shouldn't say more about this issue, so God bless you with His truth no matter what the cost.

In Christ's love,

Jordan

As I read through this thread, I do not see where the issues of pacifism vs nonresistance is addressed. For many people these two concepts are one and the same, yet they are very different in its application to life and Biblical principles and therein lies the resistance many have towards this doctrine.

Pacifism differs from nonresistance. And here is a description as given by [the late] J. C. Wenger, a noted Mennonite scholar: When one turns away from theoretical considerations to actual life, however, he discovers that the terms pacifism and nonresistance are not always Synonymous. Guy F. Hershberger distinguishes pacifism from biblical nonresistance in four respects: (1) The pacifist may devote his labors to the abolition of war, making international peace his major goal, while the New Testament nonresistant is concerned primarily to bring men and women to the experience of "peace with God" through responding to the glorious gospel of Christ in repentance and faith. The ensuing relationship of peace-both with God and with men-is far deeper and more meaningful than the absence of warfare. (2) Pacifism as a movement does not always reckon as seriously as it should with the depths of sin in the human heart, and consequently, is overly optimistic about the possible abolition of war. (3) Pacifism sometimes fails to recognize the role of the threat of force in the peace-keeping function of the state -- in the preservation of law and order. In this task, the state functions as an agent of the wrath of God against sin, and even employs the threat of bodily harm if the evildoer resists. (4) Finally, the pacifist sometimes fails to see his role as one of absolute nonresistance and a willingness to suffer injustice, and to overcome evil with good, and he compromises an absolute position by "nonviolent resistance"-by behavior which is more Gandhian than Christian.

More can be read on this subject by J.C. Wenger at: http://www.bibleviews.com/Biblicalnonresist.html

Now for a brief explanation of my own pilgrimage in this area of nonresistance.

I was broguht up in the conservative Anabaptist tradition, taught that serving in the military is not for the Christian, but I also entertained doubts similar to ones raised on this thread. I asked our leaders these questions but nobody answered them to my satisfaction. And so life went on...until I was about 40 years old and I started to read brother Isaiah's writings. Up to this point I did not enjoy the OT prophets..thought they were so redundant in their message...I just did not get it. Understand?

Now, I had been taught the NT concepts were introduced to the Jewish people through the OT prophets, most noteably in Isaiah. An instructor in Jewish Evangelism at Bible School told us one can use the book of Isaiah to bring a person to the LORD. As a young woman I then wondered who on earth could ever understand that book! So I remained ignorant of Isaiah for many years..until one day the Holy Spirit inspired me to read it, study it. Wow! was I ever in for some surprises! Today, I count it among my favorite books in the Bible.

So I read Isaiah. Then I came to chapter 22: 5-11: 5: For it is a day of trouble, and of treading down, and of perplexity by the Lord GOD of hosts in the valley of vision, breaking down the walls, and of crying to the mountains.
6: And Elam bare the quiver with chariots of men and horsemen, and Kir uncovered the shield.
7: And it shall come to pass, that thy choicest valleys shall be full of chariots, and the horsemen shall set themselves in array at the gate.
8: And he discovered the covering of Judah, and thou didst look in that day to the armour of the house of the forest.
9: Ye have seen also the breaches of the city of David, that they are many: and ye gathered together the waters of the lower pool.
10: And ye have numbered the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses have ye broken down to fortify the wall.
11: Ye made also a ditch between the two walls for the water of the old pool: but ye have not looked unto the maker thereof, neither had respect unto him that fashioned it long ago.
Here God is chiding them for depending on their defenses to protect them from the enemy.

Fast forword to chapter 30:1,2:"Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!". Hmmm, now God challenged their act of trusting in a foreign nation for their protection. This concept is detailed more plainly in chapter 31:1: "Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong;, but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!
Now if you wil go to chapter 36, you read in detail how Rabshakeh tried to get Hezekiah to submit to their aggression. They played an fascinating game of intimidation and persuasion. But Hezekiah remained silent and they went before the LORD in prayer who then supernaturally delivered Judah from this idoltrous nation.

Now I read this and was stunned at the concepts I read in the OT, of all places. So I did some more checking...did God command Judah after Isaiah's ministy to go to battle against anyone? I read the Chronicles, Kings, Ezra and Nehemiah, and Esther - all books of history. The only time one reads of mass revenge taken by the Jews upon their enemies was after they were in Babylon, as recorded in Esther. But this was not a command given by God. What I did find was that the time after Isaiah the history deals primarily with the spiritual condition of Judah: their apostasy and revivals. That is all. God did not ever again tell them to go to battle and "I will give them into your hand."

Jesus comes on the scene some 400 years after Malachi and what he said about peace: "He that takes the sword shall persih by sword" made a lot of sense when you compare what Brother Isaiah said hundreds of years earlier.

Now, how do we respond to the need to protect us from evil men? This is one of the most often asked questions. Perhaps another one might be in order: how often are godly people victims of violent crimes, like rape, murder, robbery? Very seldom. Very few are the incidents of godly people being victimized by acts of violence. Does this not demonstrate God's protecting hand on his children? that we do not have to resort to violence to protect ourselves? And if a godly person does get killed, what is so bad about that? But the children you ask? Do they not belong to God, and is God not big enough to take care of them? Many children from godly homes have been victims of accidents and no one is questioning God about this!

Anyhow, this is my testimony...sorry it is so long. I hope it will challenge any here who have questions and doubts...and if you still wonder whether I believe heaven will be denied to one who serves in the military, all I can say is I do not know...this decision belongs to God.

(And for your info we had a son who served in the Guard as 1LT. and three sons who did not serve in the military.)

Blessings,
ginnyrose

It sounds like you have seen some horrible things.

I have seen some things that were…unpleasant to say the least, but the bad stuff is not seeing them get shot with tazers, it’s what they were doing before hand. The worst part would have been if he would have got to go do it again.

I can see why it would be hard for you to see were I'm coming from...

I believe I do see where you are coming from if you are trying to walk in Christ’s footsteps and follow his lead to the best of your understanding…being a Christian.

I feel like I shouldn't say more about this issue...

That is the usual response to the situation I described.

Thanks for your time. God bless

Brothers and Sisters,
I would like to thank each one of you for your comments on this thread. I am sure you are wondering why I have not replied personally to any individual post. May I say all your thoughts are important and I have given thoughtful reflection to each one, thus my aspiration for this thread; as we speak to individuals we seem to go into an I’m right and your wrong mode. We find ourselves striving one with another and this is not good.
If we can direct our comments to the whole group we tend not to go on the defensive and this gives all of us a chance to listen and then to contemplate on what one another is saying.
James 1:19-20
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: [20] For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

The Holy Spirit convicted me of this very thing and I did not like the picture He showed me of myself.
Let our speech be always holy, gracious, courteous, respectful, seasoned with brotherly love, and worthy of all to remember.

Now to the matter at hand; please allow me to reiterate for those who have only read the title of this thread and believe we are talking about world peace. We are talking about His Peace.
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

There will be war and not peace until the glorious return of our Lord Jesus Christ when He shall destroy the promoter of war with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thes. 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Jesus himself said there would be war and rumors of wars until His coming.
Matthew 24:6-7
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Mark 13:7-8
And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. [8] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

Notice Jesus said you would hear of war and rumors of wars, He did not say we as His disciples were to be a part of them.
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Romans 8:5-6
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

2 Cor. 10:3-5
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) [5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Our peace comes from God.
Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 1:3
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 1:2
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:3
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephes. 1:2
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philip. 1:2
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col. 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thes. 1:1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thes. 1:2
Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Tim. 1:2
Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Tim. 1:2
To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4
To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1:3
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 John 1:3
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

He is our God of peace.
Romans 15:33
Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Philip. 4:9
Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

1 Thes. 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 13:20-21
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, [21] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

It is this peace of God we receive that relieves us from fret and worry.
Philip. 4:6-7
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. [7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

This is the peace that is to rule in our hearts.
Col. 3:15-17
And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. [16] Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. [17] And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

I guess the question is then, if He has given us His Peace can we then turn and use it to
destroy our enemies?
Again Jesus said: John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Is not the key words here My servants. May we ask ourselves the question, who’s servant are we?

Do you have this peace, His peace, the peace that passeth all the worlds understanding?

Grace and peace be unto you all, from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pastorfrin

Ps. Next: Myth #2 War is the price we must pay for freedom. Look up these words in the scriptures. Bond, free, servant, and servants.

tjservant wrote:
Some of America’s founding fathers were Christians. They defended their country. It was called a war.

America has had a lot of Christians serve in its military over the years. I would hate to say that America’s founding fathers and patriot saints that answered the call of duty and those that were drafted were not Christians.

This really is a multifaceted issue, but I wish to highlight this one comment, but first a precursory comment. I realise that my country, Australia was not birthed out of war, but out of a legislative decision, and that I may come under fire (mind the pun) from my patriotic American brothers and sisters, but this really needs to be said.

I have read your "Declaration of Independence", and what I read in it is that there is an exception to the rule, when it comes to submitting to those who have the rule over you. You do realise that when the apostles wrote on this, the ones who "had the rule over them" were ungodly Roman emperors like Nero and Caligula? These guys were tyrants who made Hitler and Saddam look like Mary Poppins, and yet there is not who statement in scripture that would justify a rebellion against them.

It is so important that we are Christians first and patriots second. Whenever the topic of war comes up, I often ask the question, "If a dictator rose up here in Australia, would you fight back?" It is funny how often those who claim to be pacifists say they would, when their civil rights are infringed. They usually follow by saying, "Well wouldn't you?" To which I reply, "No."

But what about if they tortured your wife, children, etc... "No! No! No!" Would I try to escape? Of course, but Jesus said turn the other cheek, period. Citing OT examples is ludicrous, for how many times are there instances of people overstepping the mark, when it comes to obeying God (Jephthah comes to mind, promising to sacrifice his daughter). God allows tyrants to raise up as a vehicle of judgement.

Let the ungodly fight back, and let us preach the gospel. Consider this, is the ungodly leaders converted, soundly, then the oppression would end. Going to war is an attempt to exert our own strength, rather than trusting in God's mighty arm.

Does this mean that we shouldn't be outspoken, hide persecuted peoples, etc? Of course not. But we need to "trust in the Lord always" and "lean not on (our) own understanding". There are so many vehicles to being a missionary to soldiers at war, without having to fight. There are chaplains and chefs, for example. You may think that they would have no impact, because they aren't killing alongside them, well tell that to Oswald Chambers. After all, he was advised not to run religious programs in his YMCA ten, in Zeitoun Egypt, during WWI. Thankfully, he started prayer meeting, which turned into Bible studies, and in spite of a global disillusionment setting in, due to the carnage of the Great War, he was leading countless to Christ.

At the end of the day, the only thing that war does, is slay countless lives, and boost the pride of man. Our God [b]is[/b] mighty. There is no need to compensate for His inability to deliver a nation, because there is none.

Having said all this, I'm not denying that the temptation to meet violence with violence is strong. Who knows, perhaps I would succumb if placed in such a situation (after all, far lesser temptations have broken me in the past), but my prayer is that I would stand in faith, trusting that God is mighty to deliver and save.

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

tjservant wrote:
Some of America’s founding fathers were Christians. They defended their country. It was called a war.

America has had a lot of Christians serve in its military over the years. I would hate to say that America’s founding fathers and patriot saints that answered the call of duty and those that were drafted were not Christians.

This really is a multifaceted issue, but I wish to highlight this one comment, but first a precursory comment. I realise that my country, Australia was not birthed out of war, but out of a legislative decision, and that I may come under fire (mind the pun) from my patriotic American brothers and sisters, but this really needs to be said.

I have read your "Declaration of Independence", and what I read in it is that there is an exception to the rule, when it comes to submitting to those who have the rule over you. You do realise that when the apostles wrote on this, the ones who "had the rule over them" were ungodly Roman emperors like Nero and Caligula? These guys were tyrants who made Hitler and Saddam look like Mary Poppins, and yet there is not who statement in scripture that would justify a rebellion against them.

It is so important that we are Christians first and patriots second. Whenever the topic of war comes up, I often ask the question, "If a dictator rose up here in Australia, would you fight back?" It is funny how often those who claim to be pacifists say they would, when their civil rights are infringed. They usually follow by saying, "Well wouldn't you?" To which I reply, "No."

But what about if they tortured your wife, children, etc... "No! No! No!" Would I try to escape? Of course, but Jesus said turn the other cheek, period. Citing OT examples is ludicrous, for how many times are there instances of people overstepping the mark, when it comes to obeying God (Jephthah comes to mind, promising to sacrifice his daughter). God allows tyrants to raise up as a vehicle of judgement.

Let the ungodly fight back, and let us preach the gospel. Consider this, is the ungodly leaders converted, soundly, then the oppression would end. Going to war is an attempt to exert our own strength, rather than trusting in God's mighty arm.

Does this mean that we shouldn't be outspoken, hide persecuted peoples, etc? Of course not. But we need to "trust in the Lord always" and "lean not on (our) own understanding". There are so many vehicles to being a missionary to soldiers at war, without having to fight. There are chaplains and chefs, for example. You may think that they would have no impact, because they aren't killing alongside them, well tell that to Oswald Chambers. After all, he was advised not to run religious programs in his YMCA ten, in Zeitoun Egypt, during WWI. Thankfully, he started prayer meeting, which turned into Bible studies, and in spite of a global disillusionment setting in, due to the carnage of the Great War, he was leading countless to Christ.

At the end of the day, the only thing that war does, is slay countless lives, and boost the pride of man. Our God [b]is[/b] mighty. There is no need to compensate for His inability to deliver a nation, because there is none.

Having said all this, I'm not denying that the temptation to meet violence with violence is strong. Who knows, perhaps I would succumb if placed in such a situation (after all, far lesser temptations have broken me in the past), but my prayer is that I would stand in faith, trusting that God is mighty to deliver and save.

Well said!

I have read your "Declaration of Independence", and what I read in it is that there is an exception to the rule, when it comes to submitting to those who have the rule over you. You do realise that when the apostles wrote on this, the ones who "had the rule over them" were ungodly Roman emperors like Nero and Caligula? These guys were tyrants who made Hitler and Saddam look like Mary Poppins, and yet there is not who statement in scripture that would justify a rebellion against them.

Nicely put though the Marry Poppin's comparison may be a bit of a stretch IMO.

On a slightly different tangent, i coudn't imagine an apostle or church father advocating assassination or finding and destroying 'terrorist' who were out to undermine or destabilize the Roman Empire.

Paul went to the emperor, but did he bring along a political agenda?

Having said all this, I'm not denying that the temptation to meet violence with violence is strong. Who knows, perhaps I would succumb if placed in such a situation (after all, far lesser temptations have broken me in the past), but my prayer is that I would stand in faith, trusting that God is mighty to deliver and save.

Amen & Amen :-D

No disrepect to my own family that has and does serve in the military, but I can't see how a God-fearing, faithful follower of Christ can pick up the sword.
There are many temptations, but that doesn't mean we are to fall into them when provoked in the flesh. I do at times, but still that doesn't make it right. And how rotten I feel afterward.
I say, show me your faith by what you do and not by just what you say. And I will show you mine in the same way.
Believers are called to let Christ's mind be in them (Php 2:3-8) as well, by being transformed and having it renewed(Rom 12:1-5).
Going to war for any reason even goes against my conscience. Praise God!!!

An undeserving brother,
Richie

You need to read my previous post Richie. The Bible is pretty clear about exactly WHO is to wield the sword. It is those God has called specifically for the task. That person becomes then God's representative on earth to use it. It may not be you, but God is sovereign, and calls who He decides to do the job.

For everyone else:

Almost every post on this thread has stated worldly, personal reasons for "peace," and not spiritual. (Sorry, but quoting Scripture doesn't make your answer spiritual. It just makes it full of quotes.) This is a sensitive issue, and there are a divergence of opinions. But you are not more "spiritual" or better than anyone else because you are being "peaceful." Heck, I am not more spiritual than anyone else because I listened to the leading of God and went. All I was was obedient, not "better." Lots of spiritual pride being tossed about here.

In my experience, the most violent protesters are peace protesters! (Watch the news about the Brazil protests over Bush's policies. They are "peace protests.") The world's idea of peace is hypocrisy. Its peace on "my terms," which usually means something selfish. These "peaceful protesters" are more than willing to battle police almost to the death in order to prove how peaceful they are. What utter nonsense.

Most of these arguments really are against the current Iraq war. I am old enough to have lived through and witnessed the protests against the Vietnam war. The arguments were the same. (Wait...doesn't the Bible say something about there is nothing new under the sun...?) Again, I recommend reading my previous post. Check yourself to see if you really are in the faith, because many of the responses here are actually 1960s radical rhetoric in a pious wrapping. It is this area of "peace" that the world really has crept into the church.

A true Christian has no business protesting, discussing or obsessing over peace in the world. Our peace and our rest in not here, it is in a person - Jesus Christ. This place is not our home. Our task is to save a lost world. Arguing over pointless distractions doesn't help us to fulfill the Master's command.

I apologize if this sounds like a rebuke, but this thread/topic is no longer edifying. My response here may offend someone. I apologize in advance. But to continue discussing it is really getting us no where, and bringing darkness to the board.

And that's my final 50 cents worth on the subject :-)

Yeshuasboy wrote:
There are many temptations, but that doesn't mean we are to fall into them when provoked in the flesh. I do at times, but still that doesn't make it right. And how rotten I feel afterward.
I say, show me your faith by what you do and not by just what you say. And I will show you mine in the same way.

This is well said. The major issue that the modern church faces, and it is ever so subtle, is attempting to classify actions as being "good" and "evil" and then [b]trying to do[/b] "good". This is the most futile and ludicrous thing possible. Why? Because if we are to "obey" the Scripture, we must ultimately obey the statement that say "The soul that sinneth shall die".

The moment we sin, we forfeit the right to live. It is only by God's grace that we can breathe, and without it, even breathing would be sin. This kind of attitude manifests itself in the war debate by saying, "Our struggle is just, because we struggle against injustice." Even being able to read the papers in England during the American War of Independence. America wasn't invaded, as much as populated. The sovereignty of the king, was based on the citizenship of America's residents. Whether or not the king had representation in the colonies was his prerogative.

Perhaps the papers referred to the Americans as spoilt brats who were throwing a tantrum because they weren't getting their own way, and then painted themselves as the chastising parents who were bringing them back into line. Who was just, and who was unjust? Scripture is clear on this issue, "Let God be true and let every man a liar". It is one thing to believe this, but quite another to see yourself as part of the classification of "every man".

Want to know who the "Axis of Evil" is? Humanity, under sin, that's who. Why split hairs? Just repent and be done with it.

Pilgrimsway wrote:
You need to read my previous post Richie. The Bible is pretty clear about exactly WHO is to wield the sword. It is those God has called specifically for the task. That person becomes then God's representative on earth to use it. It may not be you, but God is sovereign, and calls who He decides to do the job.

An undeserving brother,
Richie

Pilgrimsway wrote:
I apologize if this sounds like a rebuke, but this thread/topic is no longer edifying. My response here may offend someone. I apologize in advance. But to continue discussing it is really getting us no where, and bringing darkness to the board.

Please, how do you figure? It seems more that some of our statements have offended you, and you are unable to consider the validity of them, because they contradict your held opinions. This is a major issue. It cuts to the heart of the "What is humanism" debate.

Often both pacifists, and supporters of war alike, try to make this issue a matter of "War is right" verses "War is wrong". They both miss the point. War is a fact of life. As long as mankind is capable of lust, war will exist. However, if you take a life, you will be accountable for that life, period. On the other hand, God ordains war to change regimes and to liberate the oppressed. On top of this, God also ordains wars chasten his children.

In Judges, their is a parable offered where the trees try to choose a king. All but one have a function that they consider to be more important than ruling, and so the bramble becomes their tyrant, and rules with a rod of iron. I believe that this is God's way, and He ordains this way so that we can see that man is thoroughly ill equipped to rule.

Consider that if all humanity were truly Spirit led, there would be no need to have earthly government, as all would live in perfect unison under God's reign. Obviously this is not the case, because not all are submitted to Him, and many have set themselves up as His enemy, and God in His infinite wisdom, challenges us to a faith that will submit to these ungodly leaders, as ones that rule in His place.

Scripture exhorts us that the "heart of the king is in the hand of God, and He can turn it wherever He wishes". Consider Pharaoh, in light of this. At one point he declines Moses requests out of own opinion, and the next he has his heart hardened by God. How can Pharaoh be judged for this? Simple, because God was just letting him do what he wanted to do, in himself. Granted, pharaoh may not have gone as far as he did, but the desire was there, and being judged for what he did of his own volition, was enough to cast him into the Lake of Fire.

We are judged for what our actions portray to be the desire of our heart. We do good, we do evil, and then we desire that we be judged by our good deeds, while our evil deeds are ignored. The only one who will go free on Judgement Day, are those who plead "Guilty as charged", knowing that they were willing participants, and that the penalty has already been paid, by Another.

God takes advantage of the existence of corrupt men and warmongers, and utilises them to further His own ends, which is the redemption of mankind. In China, right now, the house churches are praying that we will experience the kind of persecution that they have. Why? Because they realise that this is a key to God's Kingdom being expanded.

There will be those during this time who will resist and fight back, and the true church will suffer from both sides of such a civil war. Note that historically, the worst persecution has always come from those who claim the name of Christ.

The reason why this issue even needs to be discussed, is that the modern church has failed in giving emphasis to coming judgement, which Jesus himself stated was a "weightier matter of the Law" (Mat 23:23. On top of this, there is wide scale ignorance of the fact that temporal chastening is a prequel to an ultimate Judgement, and occurs in order that it may work in us "a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory". This was the lesson to be learned from WWII, but sadly all, but a few, thought that the point was that Hitler was a big bad meanie. That he was, but save for the grace of God, we would be as he was, and worse.

I hope that in light of this, you can see why this is such an important issue. Not that persecution will be avoided, but that we may be protected from participating in "inflicting chastisement" on the church. This is the only time where it is "more blessed to receive than to give".

:-)

Pilgrim wrote:

In my experience, the most violent protesters are peace protesters! (Watch the news about the Brazil protests over Bush's policies. They are "peace protests.") The world's idea of peace is hypocrisy. Its peace on "my terms," which usually means something selfish. These "peaceful protesters" are more than willing to battle police almost to the death in order to prove how peaceful they are. What utter nonsense.

Pilgrim, what you are complaining about is the conduct of pacifists. This is a total different concept then Biblical nonresistance. Please read my more recent post - I discussed the difference there. The short of the long is that pacifists get their inspiration from Biblical nonresistance but have humanized/secularized it. I agree with you about these 'peace' activists.

I was going to see if I could find this on the web, but as I understand some of the theological underpinnings of pacifism is that they hope by their 'peace' activity they can usher in the new millenium! I am saying this with a 'tongue in cheek'...but I have heard that this does factor in with the liberals but like everything else, there will be a large variation.

I hope you will reread my second post on this thread and you may be surprised what you will find.

Blessinsg,
ginnyrose

Back again quickly before departing to go see my Mama.
Pilgrimsway... brother, I am not against you as a person. You know we don't even know each other. And God, I believe, desires that I respect you as as elder. I looked for your post quickly, on this page and the first and couldn't find it. But if you want to try to prove some point to me, then go for it brother. PM me if you wish.
God willing I'll be back in a few weeks, and that God will grant me the grace to be as humble and as loving as He can make any man.
Please pray for "God's" will to be done in my life. My stupid will must go into the further training of abandonment and self-abasement.
I wish not to fight nor argue, but have Christ live through me by the power of the Holy Spirit's leading and guidance. I wish not to do my own will in the Name of Christ Jesus no longer. God help me.
I don't know why it is, but it seems to me that fighting in the Name of God is quite the acceptable thing that the US seems to do.... that because it is done in the Name of God, that makes it alright.... the means somehow justifies the end? I think this is dangerous business to the soul.

An undeserving brother,

richie

pastorfrin is asking about the peace that God gives to those who are His...

Psa. 85:0 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of the sons of Korah.

Psa. 85:1 \tLORD, You have been favorable to Your land;
\tYou have brought back the captivity of Jacob.
2 \tYou have forgiven the iniquity of Your people;
\tYou have covered all their sin.
\t\t\t\tSelah
3 \tYou have taken away all Your wrath;
\tYou have turned from the fierceness of Your anger.
4 \tRestore us, O God of our salvation,
\tAnd cause Your anger toward us to cease.
5 \tWill You be angry with us forever?
\tWill You prolong Your anger to all generations?
6 \tWill You not revive us again,
\tThat Your people may rejoice in You?
7 \tShow us Your mercy, LORD,
\tAnd grant us Your salvation.
8 \tI will hear what God the LORD will speak,
\tFor He will speak peace
\tTo His people and to His saints;
\tBut let them not turn back to folly.
9 \tSurely His salvation is near to those who fear Him,
\tThat glory may dwell in our land.
10 \tMercy and truth have met together;
\tRighteousness and peace have kissed.
11 \tTruth shall spring out of the earth,
\tAnd righteousness shall look down from heaven.
12 \tYes, the LORD will give what is good;
\tAnd our land will yield its increase.
13 \tRighteousness will go before Him,
\tAnd shall make His footsteps our pathway.

Here the Psalmist yearns for the peace that God gives...

James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

James teaches about a wisdom that comes from above, it is pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruit...

Why do these men yearn for the peace that comes from above?

In Christ
Jeff

Psa. 120:0 A Song of Ascents.

Psa. 120:1 \tIn my distress I cried to the LORD,
\tAnd He heard me.
2 \tDeliver my soul, O LORD, from lying lips
\tAnd from a deceitful tongue.
3 \tWhat shall be given to you,
\tOr what shall be done to you,
\tYou false tongue?
4 \tSharp arrows of the warrior,
\tWith coals of the broom tree!
5 \tWoe is me, that I dwell in Meshech,
\tThat I dwell among the tents of Kedar!
6 \tMy soul has dwelt too long
\tWith one who hates peace.
7 \tI am for peace;
\tBut when I speak, they are for war.

Do our souls cry out in like fashion, or are we like the "one who hates peace."

In Christ
Jeff

Brothers and Sisters,
Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Myth # 2 War is the price we must pay for freedom.

When one looks at such a statement the question is raised; what is freedom?
The Merriam-Webster Dictionary says:
“The quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action”
Sounds like a myth doesn’t it?
1. This is the freedom that comes from man which is purchased and maintained through war.

2. The second type of freedom comes from above and was purchased through
Jesus Christ.

First let's discuss the freedom that man offers, this freedom is a ruse and I propose to you that it is a trick from Satan and this is why the world puts so much emphasis upon it.
I am employed by the Veterans Administration at a VA Psychiatric Hospital. Every day I see men, women and children who have no idea what freedom is because they are living in bondage. When you look into their eyes you don’t see freedom, you see bondage, horror, guilt, shame, anger and most of all you see helplessness. They are not free they are lost within the horrors the cost of what the world calls freedom.
The majority of the US population backs war to maintain their freedom but only a small percentage has ever served or paid the price for it and most of the ones who have served are the poor and under privileged, imagine that. It is very easy to say we must go to war when you are not the one that’s doing the fighting and it cost you nothing.
Let me if I may share with you from my own personal experience.
After serving as a pastor for seven years I began to experience flash backs, nightmares of combat, the pain I endured when I was hit, the loss of life I had witnessed and then the guilt, shame, anger and a sense of worthlessness. All of this happened over a period of several weeks and I was helpless to stop it from the momentum it was gaining. One Sunday morning I woke up looked at my wife and said I can’t do it anymore I cannot stand before the people and proclaim the Word of God I am not worthy. I slipped into a deep depression and did nothing but lay in bed for Two weeks. The district was called and arrangements were made to fill the pulpit.
I was prayed for and over very many times but nothing would relieve the torment I was suffering. After several long months I was asked by the district to step down as pastor for the good of the church. It was the right thing to do but at the time it
Only put me deeper into depression. My family watched me many times in hopeless despair, while I wretched, miserable and unable to do any thing for
My condition but wish I was dead, they would be better off if I were dead.
They could not do or say any thing to help me and I could not help or minister to them. We finally were persuaded to go to the VA for help they said I was suffering from PTSD brought on from the pressures of pastoring. I was given an
assortment of medications and counseling and told I would be fine. I only got worse. Finally they told my wife to go on with her life to find someone else because I was terminal and it was only a matter of time until I would kill myself, he is hopeless they told her make a life for yourself and your children.
Now does that sound like freedom to any of you? Yes in the eyes of the world that is the cost we must pay.
For a total of four long years my family lived through hell, all the time believing
God that I would one day be delivered from the torment I was suffering.
Then one morning I picked up my Bible and opened it as I looked down these words jumped from the page:
John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

All of a sudden the light came on I was free the Son of God not war had made me free I was not only free I was free INDEED! Oh how I cried and praised God and
My family with me cried and praised God for He had answered prayer as He said He would. HE WAS FAITHFUL WHO PROMISED.
We all decided that day that Jesus and Jesus alone was our reason for us being free and Jesus and Jesus alone was the only way we would stay free.

Freedom what is it? Simply this:
John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

By continuing in His Word we are His disciples indeed because only His disciples will continue in His Word.
John 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

I thank the Lord God every day that my wife did not take the advice she was given at the VA ( the advice of the world) but instead His advice:
John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. [35] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I returned to pastoring after this and we are currently pastoring a Home Missions
Church, forty one years of marriage, our seven children and fourteen grand children are a testimony to His faithfulness.

In closing I would like all to notice the results of the worlds freedom:

Rev. 6:15-17
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Only those whom the Son has made free, for they shall be FREE INDEED.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

His Love to All

pastorfrin

I see that God has birthed in you this message. It is often a work that takes years to see.

Keep preachin and tear down the stronghold of Satan, and build up those who would hear.

God Bless
Jeff

Jeff,
Yes brother and what a trip it has been, but you
know I see it as Paul spoke in
Romans 8:16-18
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: [17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
[18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

As far as preachin it, as Peter and John said in
Acts 4:20
For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

Thanks for the encouragement Brother.

pastorfrin

Pastor,
Your testimony reminded me of a former neighbor we had a long time ago...he dealt with his depression by abusing drugs...the depression caused by similar events that you described.

Thanks for the testimony and sharing it. Once again life proves the validity of God's Word although we do not depend on it to determine whether we believe it or not. It just is a wonderful blessing God has given to his children.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:

ginnyrose wrote:
Pastor,
Your testimony reminded me of a former neighbor we had a long time ago...he dealt with his depression by abusing drugs...the depression caused by similar events that you described.

Thanks for the testimony and sharing it. Once again life proves the validity of God's Word although we do not depend on it to determine whether we believe it or not. It just is a wonderful blessing God has given to his children.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Yes that is often the way PTSD is handled, drugs and alcohol. Let me share why that is. Mental pain is the worse kind of pain I believe we can suffer. I was shot and the bullet took bone and joint with it, not a flesh wound the pain took months, years to subside. This fall I had surgery on both kidneys to remove tumors and the pain was very very sever and some is still there. I say this only to show I know what physical pain is and I think most people have experienced some physical pain so they can relate to it. This is not the case with mental pain. Mental pain is not the same and unless you have been there you have no idea what another is going through. Unrelenting torment is the word I would use to describe it.
I received all the medication one could desire and then I added alcohol with it. I would take handfuls of pills and then drink a bottle of vodka and pass out.
My wife was told on more than one occasion that I had taken enough medication to kill ten men and that was not including the alcohol. Strange thing about it they kept giving me the medication at times I've wondered if they were trying to help me along.
I did not drink before I became sick and have not since but at the time one did anything to try and releive the pain. Reminds me of the kidney surgery and the pain medication I was given, once the pain subsided I had now futher desire to take the pain medicine.
This is why it is so important that we proclaim
nonresitance, not because of our life experience
(which is a testimony for it) but that it is the
teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ and He is the only one who can truly make us free.

John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

You are more than welcome
:-)
John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

pastorfrin

Pastorfrin,

That mental pain you described is dreadful. How often does this happen to veterans? Are you suggesting it is primarily a spiritual problem that results from actual shooting and killing?

ginnyrose

PS: BTW, I was wondering why your wife stuck by you when you were suffering so bad? So many would have abandoned a person like you because they wanted to get 'on with their life'.

Hi ginnyrose,
You wrote:
“Pastorfrin,

That mental pain you described is dreadful. How often does this happen to veterans? Are you suggesting it is primarily a spiritual problem that results from actual shooting and killing?”

Latest stats show about one in three and this is only those who seek help. I believe the problem is much higher because most will not seek help because of the mental illness stigma.
I look at it this way, we receive our moral values at a very young age, most or should I say many children are taught to hurt someone else is wrong this is reinforced many times over in our childhood. Suddenly we find ourselves being told to do the very opposite of what we were told all of our childhood not to do.
In combat you go into a survival mode and it is not until after you are home that you begin to really feel the experience. Much like losing a loved one, the grieving process starts later when everyone is gone, the numbness wears off and you begin to feel the pain of loss.
When the feelings begin the conflict starts, all the things you were taught come rushing back and the torment begins.
Now other issues bring this about as well, guilt over you living and your buddies dieing, things you witnessed and decisions you made all have a part to play. One big ingredient is stress I was pastoring a Home Missions church working on my Masters and working to support my family so I was definitely stressed. Something else is I was so busy that my personal devotional time suffered so I suffered spiritually.
Having said all this that is only my experience and many veterans suffer PTSD who have not been under such severe stress.
I believe it is the whole war experience that takes us from being mindful of His kingdom and concentrates on the kingdoms of this world that causes the conflict.

James 4:1
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

We cannot get away from this scripture, even if we were not His when we went to war we were still taught to love our neighbor and I believe breaking this teaching is what causes much of our torment.

Ginnyrose wrote:
“
PS: BTW, I was wondering why your wife stuck by you when you were suffering so bad? So many would have abandoned a person like you because they wanted to get 'on with their life'.”

When I was going through counseling they called us in together and said part of our problem was we were to close, they said we were like two post leaning against each other holding one another up, we looked at each other and smiled and I knew in my heart that we were one. She says she stayed to keep her post from falling down. We still call each other our leaning post. We have been together since high school and can you believe they said it was only puppy love?
:-)
In His Love

pastorfrin

I praise God for coming across Pastorfin’s testimony today. Surely, this is in God’s timing! PTSD among our veterans has been heavily on my mind since I watched a TV documentary about this two nights ago. Several veterans of the Iraq war shared their stories – from the time they were enticed to sign up (with promises of wonderful benefits) to the days and years after returning - their nightmare with PTSD and all the side effects. Then yesterday the McLean’s magazine arrived. On the cover page was “Coming home: Hundreds of Canadian soldiers have been wounded in Afghanistan. Many have come back to face a whole new battle.”

On the TV I saw clips of how the soldiers underwent rigorous de-programming in order to get them to the point where they can’t think for themselves, and will just follow orders. One said, “People say it’s not just about killing, but really that’s ALL its about: killing. Everything is about killing.”

Veterans come back as heroes but the glory doesn’t last long. One man said, “I am supposed to be a hero, but I feel like a monster. I can’t talk with my wife about the women and children whom I killed because she wants to see me as a hero.”

Comments were expressed such as: “I didn’t know why I was there. I was killing just to survive, because they were trying to kill me. I had no choice. I just wanted to get out of there. I was just following orders.”…. “I came back with anger, hatred, and a desire to kill. You can’t just put that off when you return. You can’t ever change back.”

The after-effects are horrendous: suicides, crime, family stresses, loneliness, etc etc. But above all is the hellish agony of GUILT. In fact, GUILT is the ongoing inner torture – guilt for having killed. What is making it worse for these sufferers is that nobody wants to acknowledge it. The gov’t doesn’t want to, because then they’d have to admit that war is bad. Psychologists are slapping on labels like bi-polar, etc – I say, just a way to avoid facing THEIR own guilt: of trusting in the sword.

Veteran guilt is really an issue of an entire society that refuses to admit its rebellion against God and idolatrous belief in war. (see Ps. 2) The soldiers are the guilt-bearers. And until society admits it’s own guilt, it’s not going to be able to help these veterans – and their families – and their descendents. (My goodness, we are still suffering the psychological trauma of WW2 - though no one talks about it)

Our soldiers are bearing the sins of a nation that refuses to confess its own sins. And I write this with tears.

Unrelenting torment is the word I would use to describe it.

Is God not trying to get out attention? Will our society keep on ignoring the warning signs that are surfacing in our veterans?

This is the hour that the church can be the light in the world: administering the very healing balm that Christ came to offer. But the church can do nothing more than be part of the problem until it also admits its own GUILT – it’s nationalism, trust in a kingdom of this world, it’s defiance of the call to sanctify life, etc.

For those eager to see revival, I say, you cannot have revival until you are willing to relinquish these very sins.

I hope to hear many more testimonies like Pastorfrin’s. Surely there must be some around. But, sadly, our humanistic TV stations and magazines are not going to publish their stories, because then they’d have to admit their own guilt: rebellion against God.

Pastorfrin, I praise God that he’s put you where you are – to minister to suffering veterans! I pray that your testimony gets “out there”. I pray that hundreds and hundreds of veterans, and indeed, anyone, can learn that God indeed can set them completely free – because they see a REAL-LIFE example.

And I pray that your message about the need to be instruments of peace is received and respected by many. (If I were running this forum, I’d sure be stickying your story.)

”Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. John 14:27

Diane

Sister Diane,
Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. I wish others could see and proclaim the truth as you have. We must not be silenced in proclaiming the message of repentance there is to much at stake, the souls of men and women that we are sending to war so we will not have to suffer persecution. If the church ? would only see that the very system they are depending upon to keep them safe is the very thing that will turn and devour them.
2 Tim. 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
It is well past time we stop making excuses for why we are not. It is not because we are free it is because we are in bondage to and friends with the kingdoms of this world.

My prayer is some who have already served will hear and be delivered from the torment and others will hear before they become a part of it and steer themselves and others away from the snare.
Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
Oh that we would stop trusting in man and turn to the Lord, what a revival that would be.

Jeremiah 17:7-8
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. [8] For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Therefore, If and only if, the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Praise God that ALL can be set FREE.

IN His Love

pastorfrin

Brothers and Sisters,

Let us look at Myth # 3: War is necessary to protect ones country, family and home.

First lets define the term necessary: Main Entry: 1nec•es•sary
Pronunciation: 'ne-s&-"ser-E
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English necessarie, from Latin necessarius, from necesse necessary, probably from ne- not + cedere to withdraw -- more at NO
1 a : of an inevitable nature : INESCAPABLE b (1) : logically unavoidable (2) : that cannot be denied without contradiction c : determined or produced by the previous condition of things d : COMPULSORY
2 : absolutely needed : REQUIRED

After reading the definition let us answer the question is war necessary?
Our answer must be yes. Once you have been established by the sword you must continue to use it to survive, much like the gun fighters of the old west, after a few notches on your six shooter your reputation precedes you, before long you have
Challengers and sooner or latter one comes along who is faster and the words of Jesus come to fruition:

Matthew 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

This brings us to the U.S. and the question of war, is it necessary for the U.S. to go
to war to protect itself? The answer according to the definition of necessary is
absolutely. Why? It was determined or produced by the previous condition of things. The U.S. was founded by war by rebellion against the King. Let us use scripture here that is often quoted as our reason as obedient citizens to go to war.

1 Peter 2:13-17
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; [14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. [15] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: [16] As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. [17] Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

So we see a precedence, was set, due to the previous condition war is absolutely necessary to protect the nation from outside threats and those who someday may become a threat. In other words the U. S. must rule the world to survive you know democracy, sound familiar. After all it is a kingdom of this world.
Now as servants of Jesus Christ how do we handle this? Simple we obey the Lord.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Ok it may not be for the kingdom but on this premise will not war keep our children safe? Well let us look at Israel. What did it do for them?

A warning from Moses, to the people of God, who would break His commandments and His statutes, who trusted in the arm of the flesh (the sword) and not in the Lord God.

Leviticus 26:21-29
And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. [22] I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate. [23] And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; [24] Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. [25] And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. [26] And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied. [27] And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; [28] Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. [29] And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

Deut. 28:52-57
And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the Lord thy God hath given thee. [53] And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: [54] So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave: [55] So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates. [56] The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, [57] And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.

Did God’s chosen people listen to the warnings?

2 Kings 6:24-29
And it came to pass after this, that Ben-hadad king of Syria gathered all his host, and went up, and besieged Samaria. [25] And there was a great famine in Samaria: and, behold, they besieged it, until an ass's head was sold for fourscore pieces of silver, and the fourth part of a cab of dove's dung for five pieces of silver. [26] And as the king of Israel was passing by upon the wall, there cried a woman unto him, saying, Help, my lord, O king. [27] And he said, If the Lord do not help thee, whence shall I help thee? out of the barnfloor, or out of the winepress? [28] And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. [29] So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.

Jeremiah 5:15-17
Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the Lord: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say. [16] Their quiver is as an open sepulchre, they are all mighty men. [17] And they shall eat up thine harvest, and thy bread, which thy sons and thy daughters should eat: they shall eat up thy flocks and thine herds: they shall eat up thy vines and thy fig trees: they shall impoverish thy fenced cities, wherein thou trustedst, with the sword.

Jeremiah 19:7-9
And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. [8] And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof. [9] And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

Lament. 2:10-12
The elders of the daughter of Zion sit upon the ground, and keep silence: they have cast up dust upon their heads; they have girded themselves with sackcloth: the virgins of Jerusalem hang down their heads to the ground. [11] Mine eyes do fail with tears, my bowels are troubled, my liver is poured upon the earth, for the destruction of the daughter of my people; because the children and the sucklings swoon in the streets of the city. [12] They say to their mothers, Where is corn and wine? when they swooned as the wounded in the streets of the city, when their soul was poured out into their mothers' bosom.

Lament. 4:6-10
For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her. [7] Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire: [8] Their visage is blacker than a coal; they are not known in the streets: their skin cleaveth to their bones; it is withered, it is become like a stick. [9] They that be slain with the sword are better than they that be slain with hunger: for these pine away, stricken through for want of the fruits of the field. [10] The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people.

Ezekiel 5:8-12
Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations. [9] And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations. [10] Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds. [11] Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.
[12] A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.

When God’s chosen people broke away from His Word and trusted in the arm of the flesh they became capable of the most horrendous things, things unimaginable. They did not protect their children they ate them. God help us if our life on, this earth, becomes that important, but remember we are people as they in the flesh, and only by trusting in the Lord and The Lord alone will we be able to stand on that day of decision.

Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Ok that may be fine for the nation, but I must take up the sword to protect my family and home.
People do not be deceived, in the days ahead those of your own household will be your enemy.

Matthew 10:21-22
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. [22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Which of your family will you kill to keep from being delivered up to death?
Do you kill your children or your wife to protect your own life?

Matthew 10:34-37
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. [35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. [36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. [37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Again he that loves his life shall lose it,

Matthew 10:28-31
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [29] Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. [30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. [31] Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

The words of Jesus make so much sense:

Matthew 5:43-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

When your enemy is those of your own household your obedience to the Word of God could be the difference between your loved ones being lost or saved, us obeying the Word of the Lord can and will make a difference.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

So is war necessary to protect ones country, family and home?
Only if, your trust is in man, then it is necessary and you shall reap what you sow.

Jeremiah 17:5-6
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. [6] For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

If your trust is in the Lord then you shall be blessed:

Jeremiah 17:7-8
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. [8] For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

Matthew 10:32-33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. [33] But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:38-39
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. [39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

No we will not protect our life we will not protect our family, and we will not protect our home by going to war, we will only protect these things by hearing and obeying the Words of our Lord Jesus Christ, for it is in Him that we live and move and have our being.
Let our prayer be Thy Will Be Done and then accept where he leads us, for we can be sure of this very thing, as we follow Him His plan for us will be to His Glory,
For by life or by death we shall be with the Lord.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

In His Love,

pastorfrin

FROM BIBLICAL NONRESISTANCE TO "PEACE"
Editorial
March/April, 1999
Volume 34, Number 2
It is necessary to be reminded again of basic New Testament teaching for the Christian. The Sermon on the Mount is not rigid law, but rather is a description of the believer's life in following Jesus Christ. The Sermon is for Christians, not pagans. "Our Lord never asks a natural man, the dupe of sin and Satan, and under the dominion of Hell, to live a life like this, for he cannot," wrote Martin Lloyd-Jones.

War is a result of sin (James 4:1). The purpose of the military is "to kill people and break things." The armed forces are not educational institutions, international relief agencies, or social engineering models. Armies are just large manifestations of the evil that lurks in human hearts, and of the great force that is necessary to keep that evil in check.
Christ stated that wars would continue until His return. Christians will not outlaw conflicts or cause wars to cease. It is the height of naivete to think that Christians, by political action, will change the evil hearts of human beings so that they will not war.
The Christian is not of this world (John 18:36), but is a citizen of Heaven. We should be cautious about involving ourselves in politics, and by extension, involving ourselves in human conflicts. The world's method's are not our methods (2 Corinthians 10:3-4).
Christians want people to be saved. Our interest is in the spiritual outcome of souls involved. This should cause us to redouble our efforts to present the Gospel to all who will hear. We indeed fight a battle, but it is a spiritual one (Ephesians 6:11-18).
We recognize the legitimate use of force (police, armed forces) to contain evildoers (Romans 13), but we maintain that the Christian is not to participate in these activities (Romans 12). The only reason, ultimately, for the Christian not to participate in the military or war is that Jesus Christ forbids him to do so. This means that war is permitted for civil government.
We recognize the proper role of government (1 Peter 2:12-17). The government is in place to make and enforce just laws for the harmony of unregenerate society. Christians ought to be the best subjects a ruler should have, and every Christian should be in prayer for our rulers.
--Craig Alan Myers
From Biblical Nonresistance to "Peace"
by Mark A. Ray
Amidst the modern pleas for "diversity" and "inclusiveness" can be heard the faint whispers of the Brethren past calling forth for "distinctiveness" and "nonconformity." The greater the push for diversification in our beliefs and inclusiveness of all people regardless of their beliefs or lifestyles, the more our Brethren heritage and doctrinal standards fade into history. A church cannot remain distinct in anything if it seeks to adopt and welcome everything.

Such has been the general fate of such Brethren ideals as nonconformity, non-litigation, and non-swearing. While many in the Brotherhood still hold to these New Testament teachings, the broader denomination has neglected them. Despite history's recollection of the Brethren as a "Historic Peace Church," current trends toward openness and inclusiveness in addition to the successful acculturation of the Brethren to American society and mainstream Protestantism have eroded the Brethren teachings on biblical nonresistance. The doctrine of nonresistance is a core Brethren belief that has undergone considerable transition in thought and practice, resulting in a peace position that is only a shadow of biblical nonresistance.

Nonresistance Defined

Matthew 5, a portion of the Sermon on the Mount, contains a great discourse of Jesus on the subject of nonresistance. He taught about revenge, obedience, and love.

Regarding vengeance, Jesus said, "Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles" (Matthew 5:39-41, NIV). The Apostle Paul warns, "Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath" (Romans 12:17, 19, NIV). The words of Jesus and the teachings of Paul were in complete contrast to the sentiment of the world around them, for their world was one of self-defense and retaliation, not unlike our own. An "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" was the accepted view. Jesus ushered in a new covenant and a new way of living. For the believer, the right to retaliate or take revenge does not exist. Instead, Jesus taught His followers to turn the other cheek, go the second mile, pray for their persecutors, and resist not an evil person.

Regarding obedience, the believer is called by Christ to be a peacemaker (Matthew 5:9), and one who "lives peaceably with all men" (Romans 12:18). This simple commandment has far-reaching implications that range beyond war and peace and turning the other cheek. Living at peace with a neighbor, for example, would include such New Testament practices as non-litigation, nonviolence, and even non-political involvement, as well as acts of kindness, compassion, and forgiveness. In a Christian home, abuse and divorce would be absent, and training in the Word of God would be present. Living at peace with our brothers and sisters in the church would require biblical reconciliation as taught by Jesus in Matthew 18:15-17. However, living in peace with men everywhere would never require the church to live at peace with the world and its pattern.

Regarding love, Jesus said, "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another" (John 13:34). His radically different teachings included the admonishment to "love your enemies, and bless those who curse you" (Matthew 5:44). Paul reminds the church that "love does no harm to a neighbor" (Romans 13:10). When love that is of Christ fills the life of the believer, there is no room for enmity, revenge, violence, or murder. These things become foreign to the believer who earnestly seeks to be at peace with God and man.

These New Testament Scriptures played an important role in the development of a nonresistant lifestyle among the earliest Anabaptists and Pietists. The principal ideas of these groups included a return to the New Testament, imitating the ethics of Jesus, and, of course, reading the Bible. Nonresistant themes have often been pursued by sects seeking to imitate primitive Christianity as modeled by the apostolic Church. Among these groups were the Waldenses and the Unity of Brethren.

Nonresistance continued to be affirmed through such Anabaptist statements as the Schleitheim Confession of Faith prepared by the Swiss Brethren in 1527. This confession stated that a Christian could not be a magistrate or one who was responsible for passing judgment and executing sentences in worldly disputes. The use of the sword for punishment and protection was viewed as necessary outside of the perfect will of Christ, but it had no place in the church.

Anabaptists taught a "Two Kingdoms" view in which there was a separation of the Kingdom of God (the church) and the kingdoms of man (governments). At the time of the Radical Reformation, church and state were united, and the thought of their separation was almost unimaginable. Such, too, was the case in Germany at the time the Brethren began to emerge. Some of the differences between the church and state in this theory are explained as follows.

The Church:
is spiritual
operates by love
has Christ as her Head
must proclaim the Gospel
The State
is political
operates by force
has a king/president as head
must maintain order

It is the state's prerogative to wage war and not the church's role. Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight" (John 18:36). When the laws of man differ from the laws of God, the believer should choose obedience to God and be willing to accept the consequences of such a choice. Historical accounts of Mennonites, Quakers, Hutterites, and Brethren detail their willingness to suffer imprisonment and even death rather than disobey the teachings of the New Testament. The Christian, therefore, lives under the greater authority of God and should not choose to go to war.
Following the examples of Anabaptists and Pietists before them, the early Brethren sought to restore the primitive church. Alexander Mack described the young Brethren movement as a simple group seeking to return to the "old church" founded by Christ. Mack's views on war were formed through study in the Scriptures, a desire to return to the purity of the church, and a lifetime of tragic war experiences. These experiences, coupled with New Testament teachings, created among the Brethren a sincere desire to live nonresistant lives.

The early Brethren sought to separate themselves from the sinful nature of the world around them, and their doctrine of nonresistance began to solidify. They were not only taught to refuse to bear arms, but they were instructed to avoid using any force or violence at all. They avoided initiating litigation, because it usually meant pursuing one's own interest by "legally" forcing the other party. They refrained from interpersonal violence such as quarreling and abuse and rebuked members who participated in such lifestyles. They refused to vote in political elections, because it was the government that initiated force to maintain order. They chose not to serve in law enforcement or political office for the same reason.

Development of Nonresistance in Times of War

The Brethren remained nonresistant even in the face of savagery and war. In 1777 and 1780, Brethren families were massacred by Indians at Morrison's Cove, Pennsylvania. Christopher Sauer, Jr., lost his possessions as a result of his nonresistant stance during the American War of Independence.

In 1775, a joint petition authored by both Mennonites and Brethren was sent to the Pennsylvania Assembly thanking God for the liberty of conscience for those "persuaded in their conscience to love their enemies, and resist not evil . . . " They presented their intent not to bear arms but offer assistance to the needy. They emphasized their willingness to pay taxes and give humanitarian assistance but not bear arms in conflict. At the 1780 Annual Meeting at Conestoga, Brethren were admonished not to pay the substitute fee to hire someone to serve in their place, for this was considered direct participation in the war effort. Annual Meeting declared in 1790, "Should there be anyone among us having such a conscience as to be able to fight and swear oaths, such a one would not be of us."

The Brethren remained steadfast and unified in their nonresistant determination through the wars of 1812 with England and 1845 with Mexico. Heavy fines were levied on those Brethren who refused military conscription. The Annual Meeting of 1815 encouraged the weight of these fines to be carried by the entire congregation. In 1822, Brethren were discouraged from "marching at the muster grounds" and attending Independence Day celebrations. The first statement on the use of a weapon for self-defense was released in 1855.

The unity and steadfastness of the Brethren continued during the Civil War. Participation in war remained a test of membership. It was at the 1864 Meeting that another statement concerning war was prepared and recorded in the minutes of the church:

"We exhort the Brethren to steadfastness in the faith -- and especially to our nonresistant principle, a principle dear to every subject of the Prince of Peace, and a prominent doctrine of our fraternity, and to endure whatever sufferings and to make whatever sacrifice the maintaining of the principle may require, and not to encourage in any way the practice of war . . . . "

The progression of the doctrine of nonresistance can be summed up in the following statements:

1. Nonresistance is one element of the Biblical teaching on separation from the world.
2. There is a definite separation of church and state according to the Bible.
3. Because the church and state belong to different kingdoms, the methods for defense and offense are also different.
4. Physical violence is forbidden to believers as a method of operation for any purpose.
5. The church has no right to use physical violence in the propagation of Christianity.
6. It is a breach of order for the church to join with the world in the exercise of physical force.
7. Since physical force is forbidden to the believer as a means to an end, he is always obligated to exercise spiritual means to do good and to bring blessing to others.

Later Developments

Following the Civil War, the Brethren took steps to move out of their cultural and spiritual isolationism and gradually began to move toward acculturation. They began to experiment with social and Protestant movements that were gaining in popularity. Many of the cultural distinctives began to fade out of Brethren life, resulting in division in 1881 and the loss of the Old Orders who desired to maintain Brethren distinctives.

By the time of World War I, the Brethren had experienced a radical change toward "Americanization" and many were uncomfortable with their peculiarities which had separated them. Innovations such as Sunday Schools, salaried ministers, and voting in government elections were commonplace in the church. Nationalism began to flourish, and "constructive patriotism" became a theme of the church. When the United States was ushered into war, there had been over twenty years of silence on peace and war at Annual Meetings. A strong statement on nonparticipation in war was adopted by the special Goshen Conference in 1918, but it was withdrawn under threat from the government.

The 1935 Annual Conference declared that "all war is sin; it is wrong for Christians to support or engage in it." However, by 1939, Conference added that for those who choose to participate in war, "the attitude of the church toward such should be one of brotherly love and forbearance, endeavoring by faithful teaching to restore him as long as he expresses desire to continue membership in the Church of the Brethren." A unified stance on traditional nonresistance was rejected in 1939 as participation in war no longer was a test of church membership. During World War II, only twenty percent of the Brethren drafted for military service took the conscientious objector position, while most Brethren entered the armed forces.

The transformation of the doctrine of nonresistance was practically completed in 1948 when the Conference ruled that the church would seek to maintain fellowship with all who sincerely follow the guidance of their consciences.

Official denominational statements gradually shifted the church toward a more secular and even militant pacifism. Author Donald Fitzkee describes this shift: "While statements prior to World War I had primarily urged nonparticipation, during the world wars, church position papers increasingly advocated positive peacemaking efforts. Official statements during the Vietnam era took the Brethren one step further: Not only were Brethren to promote peace; increasingly the church called on its members to actively oppose war in Vietnam."

Nonresistance and Pacifism Contrasted

Today, organizations such as On Earth Peace Assembly, Peace Studies at Manchester College, Brethren Colleges Abroad, and Christian Citizenship Seminar seek to promote the "peace position" of the church and strengthen the "social justice witness." Despite new efforts at promoting a peace witness, most Brethren (nearly two-thirds) would either enter regular military service or noncombatant military service if faced with a draft. Only one-third would maintain the historical Brethren premise that it is wrong to help in any war by fighting. Arguably, a complete transformation had taken place, and the differences between biblical nonresistance and today's secular pacifism stand in stark contrast of one another when compared side by side.

Biblical Nonresistance
1. Thinks in terms of individual peace with God, with peace among the nations coming only when men submit to the rule of Christ.

2. Sees failure in any attempt to effect a permanent reformation of human nature apart from God's grace.

3. Refuses to participate in military service because such service conflicts with the new nature received in Christ.

4. Believes his allegiance is to the higher kingdom which forbids his involvement in earthly government.

5. Has a passive interest only in the activities of state and makes no effort to influence international diplomacy.

6. Considers himself a pilgrim and stranger here and gives priority to citizenship in God's kingdom.

7. Regards war as an inevitable and recurring evil so long as the heart of man is not at peace with God through the blood of His son.

8. Works primarily to bring people in the world into peace with God.

9. Believes in a complete separation of church and state.

10. Sees no way to realize a worldwide friendly society without the work of intervening grace and divine power.

11. Primarily concerned with preaching the Gospel which is the 'power of God unto salvation', and with spreading the teachings of Christ.

12. Works for spiritual regeneration in the life of the individual through the new birth, and for the establishment of a Christian society within the church.

Secular Pacifism
1. Thinks in terms of effecting peace among the nations.

2. Has confidence in an evolutionary process of mankind through human achievement.

3. Opposes war because it conflicts with its ideology.

4. The ideal of a political order embracing international law and order requires participation in political activities.

5. Has an active interest in administering the affairs of the state motivated by the desire to influence policies.

6. Considers itself responsible for working for a just world order.

7. Urges disarmament as a step toward abolition of war.

8. Works directly for international peace.

9. Promotes legislation to accomplish ends.

10. Hopes to achieve ends through education and legislation.

11. Concerned with the use of various types of propaganda to accomplish its purposes.

12. Often ignores the necessity of regeneration and works for the reconstruction of society through social reform.

(John Mumma, Vital Differences.)
In short, biblical nonresistance supports separation from the world, while the peace position supports a moral, global community, without regard for the regenerating power of Christ.

While it is true that the Church of the Brethren officially does not require nonresistance as a test for membership, some congregations still have such requirements and expectations of their members. Both the Old Order German Baptists and the Dunkard Brethren still maintain nonresistance as a test of membership.

It is difficult to imagine how such a radical transformation of such a central doctrine of the church could have taken place. Is such an evolution an inevitable response of a church influenced by culture and changing gradually with time? Or did the change take place as a result of snowballing compromises?

Either way, the doctrine has changed and absolute truth has been forgotten. The church cannot expect to maintain a distinctive nonresistant witness--or any witness for that matter--if current trends toward inclusiveness and diversity continue. A group cannot be both diverse in acceptance of all faiths and religious ideas and distinct or dogmatic on one particular issue. The core Brethren doctrine of biblical nonresistance has undergone a considerable transformation.

Every last Brethren ideal that may still exist is in danger of the same fate. It is time for the Brethren to once again "count well the cost" of biblical nonresistance with the tenacity and obedience displayed by those who laid the foundations of our church upon the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament. That is where true peace will be found.

Mark A. Ray is youth pastor of the Blue River Church of the Brethren
in the Northern Indiana District.
-------------------------------------------------

Can anyone see how Western Christianity has given in to the temptation that satan used to tempt Jesus in:

Luke 4:5-8

And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. [6] And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. [7] If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. [8] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Satan said: " and to whomsoever I will give it".
The whosoever was not Jesus, so who is it?
Why is it so hard to see?
We have fallen for power and glory in place of His Holiness.

May He cause our hearts to return to His Kingdom that we will become the light and the salt He has called us to be. Lord Help us to SEE.

In HIs Love

pastorfrin

Pastor,
Best article I have read in a long time on this subject. You worked hard to compile this. This is a keeper.

Today, organizations such as On Earth Peace Assembly, Peace Studies at Manchester College, Brethren Colleges Abroad, and Christian Citizenship Seminar seek to promote the "peace position" of the church and strengthen the "social justice witness."

Several years ago I became interested in a (I will leave the organization unnamed) a program sponsored by the liberal segments of the modern Anabaptists churches that works to bring about reconciliation between persons convicted of crimes against humanity and their victims. I called them and talked to 'someone' about it and in the process of our conversation asked about the spiritual dimension: was it addressed? The answer was "No" and it is not a part of their policy to do so. Now I still think the concept is Biblical and that it could be done as a ministry. But I was saddened to see how far this 'peace' church had fallen.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hi ginnyrose,
Thank you, I am glad you enjoyed.
You are right about the 'peace movement' falling from the teachings of the Word. This is why we must emphasize over and over the difference between Biblical nonresistance and Pacifism.

Here is an article by Paul Alexander,Ph.D.
I will only print the beginning and post the link
to the remainder at the end.

1
The Early Assemblies of God and Conscientious Objection to War
Paul Alexander, Ph.D.
In 1917 the General Council of the Assemblies of God officially declared that it
could not support Christian participation in the violence of warfare. This official
position was accompanied by dozens of articles in the Pentecostal Evangel that
articulated some of the reasons for this belief. The statement that defined the
Assemblies of God and was forwarded to President Woodrow Wilson read as follows:
Resolution Concerning the Attitude of the General Council of the Assemblies
of God Toward any Military Service which Involves the Actual Participation in
the Destruction of Human Life.
While recognizing Human Government as of Divine ordination and affirming our
unswerving loyalty to the Government of the United States, nevertheless we are
constrained to define our position with reference to the taking of human life.
WHEREAS, in the Constitutional Resolution adopted at the Hot Springs General
Council, April 1-10, 1914, we plainly declare the Holy Inspired Scriptures to be the
all-sufficient rule of faith and practice, and
WHEREAS the Scriptures deal plainly with the obligations and relations of humanity,
setting forth the principles of “Peace on earth, good will toward men.” (Luke 2:14);
and
WHEREAS we, as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, believe in
implicit obedience to the Divine commands and precepts which instruct us to “Follow
peace with all men,” (Heb. 12:14); “Thou shalt not kill,” (Exod. 20:13); “Resist not
evil,” (Matt. 5:39); “Love your enemies,” (Matt. 5:44); etc., and
WHEREAS these and other Scriptures have always been accepted and interpreted by
our churches as prohibiting Christians from shedding blood or taking human life;
THEREFORE we, as a body of Christians, while purposing to fulfill all the obligations
of loyal citizenship, are nevertheless constrained to declare we cannot conscientiously
participate in war and armed resistance which involves the actual destruction of human
life, since this is contrary to our view of the clear teachings of the inspired Word of
God, which is the sole basis of our faith.1
1“The Pentecostal Movement and the Conscription Law,” The Weekly Evangel, 4
August 1917, 6. I provide an analysis of this statement later in this article.
2
This brief paper is a compilation of some of these early Assemblies of God
voices, from laity to superintendents, who thought along these lines. I have kept
commentary to a minimum so that their words can be heard for what they were. I do not
necessarily espouse all of their arguments or some of their inflammatory language
(Pentecostals have a way of getting to the point), but I do believe that their concerns can
still inform the way we think about our Christian faithfulness and the world.
Assemblies of God Conscientious Objection to War, 1914-1919
During World War I an American pentecostal, William Burton McCafferty,
penned an uncompromising article that adamantly opposed combatant participation in
warfare.2 He was responding to a previous article in the Evangel that had supported
Christian participation.3 The authors of the previous article had argued rationally that the
Christian was obligated to defend the weak and innocent with violence. The scriptures
they used were references that supported submission to the state (Romans 13.1-7; 1
Timothy 2.1-2; 1 Peter 2.12-17). McCafferty based his entire argument on the exegesis
of scripture passages that supported nonviolence, spiritual warfare, and heavenly
citizenship.
2The former main chapel, now a small auditorium, at Southwestern Assemblies of
God University in Waxahachie, Texas is named after Burt McCafferty. This is evidence
of his stature in the Assemblies of God even though he was a pacifist in Texas.
3“Is European War Justifiable?,” The Christian Evangel, 12 December 1914, 1-2.
This was the only article in the Evangel that supported Christian participation in warfare
between 1914 and 1916. The Evangel (also the Weekly Evangel for a time, now The
Pentecostal Evangel) was at that time, and still is, the official magazine of the
Assemblies of God that attempts to present the perspective of the fellowship.
3
McCafferty rejected the option of fighting to defend the weak against the “bully”
because the disciples had wanted to do the same thing but were taught that it was wrong.
In Luke 22:49, the disciples asked Jesus, ‘Lord, shall we smite with the sword?’ They
prayed, but, instead of waiting for an answer, one immediately drew the sword and
went to battle. . . . Let us wait for an answer from God. Let us not begin to reason
from the natural point of view. . . . What was the answer of Christ to the disciples
(Christians) to this question? (Matth. 26:51) ‘Put up again thy sword into his place.’
This is what God is saying to the Christians of today, ‘Ye followers of the Prince of
Peace, disarm yourselves’ for ‘the weapons of our warfare are not carnal.’ (the musket,
sword, siege gun or cannon). 2 Cor. 10:4.4
McCafferty did not allow reason to dissuade him from the serious application of the
words of Jesus. Although it was “natural” to defend oneself, the follower of Jesus was
supposed to do what Jesus himself did.
The argument that we must go to war in behalf of the weaker nation because of its
being in the right, is not consistent with the doctrines of Christ. It is also against the
teaching of Christ to fight in self-defense. ‘For even hereunto were we called, because
Christ also suffered leaving us an example that we should follow His steps, who did no
sin (violence, Isa. 53:9) who, when he was reviled, reviled not again. . . .’5
He also argued that Christians were not citizens of their earthly nations so they should not
defend them.
John 17:16. Our citizenship is not of this world, our citizenship is in heaven. Phil.
3:20. We belong to the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of God and the kingdoms
4Burt McCafferty, “Should Christians Go To War?” The Christian Evangel, 16
January 1915, 1.
5Ibid. McCafferty appealed to the life of Jesus as an example to be followed. In
so doing, he aligned with the type of pacifism Yoder called “the imitation of Jesus.” “Its
content is not abstract commands but rather the life and word of Jesus. His command and
example are to be followed without calculation of social possibilities. . . . It does not
expect widespread acceptance, but neither does it acquiesce in the world’s
noncompliance with Jesus’ norm.” John Howard Yoder, Nevertheless: Varieties and
Shortcomings of Religious Pacifism (), 120.
4
of this world are not allied. . . . Christians are separate from the world and are subjects
of God’s kingdom, a kingdom of peace. . . .6
McCafferty employed fourteen scripture verses, all of which were from the New
Testament with the exception of one reference to Isaiah 53 (which he used to equate sin
with violence since that is the word that Isaiah used). He concerned himself with finding
and presenting the attitude that Jesus and his disciples took regarding war. Any other
argument, regardless of how “natural” it seemed, had to be measured against the direct
teachings and lives of Jesus and the New Testament Christians. This is the first article in
the Evangel that systematically presented a pacifist argument and it revealed a paradigm
that was followed by subsequent Assemblies of God peacemakers.
Both the July 3 and July 10, 1915, Weekly Evangels presented advertisements for
Arthur Sydney Booth-Clibborn’s strongly worded pentecostal pacifist book, Blood
Against Blood.7 Booth-Clibborn employed a multitude of scriptures and illustrations to
prove that a Christian had no place in the bloodshed of war. The editors of The
Pentecostal Evangel heartily recommended it.
A most striking, realistic and forceful book by Arthur Sydney Booth-Clibborn, an
English Pentecostal Evangelist and Elder who has put into words the principles
burning in the hearts of all the Pentecostal saints on the subject of whether a Christian
should go to war or not. This book presents war from a Christian standpoint and is not
intended for those out of Christ. Should the United States go to war with Germany
what will be the attitude of the Pentecostal people. Send for a copy of this wonderful
book and make a decision.8
6McCafferty, “Should Christians Go To War?” 1.
7Arthur Sydney Booth-Clibborn, Blood Against Blood (1901; reprint New York:
Charles C. Cook, 1914). Booth-Clibborn was the son in law of William Booth, founder
of the Salvation Army, who became a Pentecostal and left the Army.
5
High praises for a text about pacifism being the pentecostal view of war seems to reveal
that the early leaders of the Assemblies of God thought this was the direction they wanted
the fellowship to go. At this stage they were still asking the question, “what will be the
attitude of the Pentecostal people?” but Booth-Clibborn’s “wonderful book” and the
preponderance of articles in the Evangel between 1914 and 1916 promoted abstinence.9
An unnamed author in 1915 provided evidence that many American pentecostals
were more concerned about promoting peace than supporting war.
the nations [should have] . . . spread the Gospel of Peace and made known the rule of
Jesus . . . ‘the King of Peace’ instead of obeying the ‘traditions of men’ and preparing
big guns, air craft, rapid firers, submarines, a big navy, and bigger army for the
destruction of human life.10
The following week witnessed the first article by Frank Bartleman in the
Evangel.11 He voiced the concerns of the marginalized in society and condemned war in
no uncertain terms. His first paragraph proclaimed that only hypocrites pray for peace
while helping the war to continue. He asserted that America’s claim of neutrality was a
lie because America made the European war possible by selling arms to all the
participants. “The nation, the voters, the church members, could stop this if they would
insist upon it . . . [but] we are willing to receive these millions of blood money. We had
better pluck out the stars from our flag and instate dollar marks in their place.”12 He
8“Blood Against Blood,” The Weekly Evangel, 3 July 1915, 3. “Blood Against
Blood,” The Weekly Evangel, 10 July 1915, 3.
9The ratio was at least 10:1 in favor of nonparticipation. However, war remained
a minor concern compared to missions, revivals, and doctrinal debates.
10“Tithes and Free Will Offerings,” The Weekly Evangel, 3 July 1915,
3.
6
contrasted the symbols of the nations, “wild beasts and birds of prey,” with the human
heart (representing peace) that Nebuchadnezzar had taken away from him. His concern
for the poor manifested itself repeatedly.
The poor people must spill their blood to save the rulers fortunes. . . . The servant
class must be emancipated. The lords must turn their great ‘preserves’ into potato
patches to feed the starving thousands of the common people. . . . [Soldiers are]
blinded by sin, blinded by ignorance, blinded and controlled by their leaders.13
Bartleman also predicted terrible aftereffects of the war.
We will have nations of murderers after this war. A generation with their hands
stained with the blood of other human beings. . . . Whole nations will be fired with
hatred in heart and mind against one another for coming generations. Not only men
but the women and the children. Unborn generations are thus cursed.14
He presented the selfish motives and horrific results of war in such ways that made it
completely incompatible with Christianity. He condemned specific sins of every nation,
from England and America to Germany, Russia, Italy, France, and Japan, declaring that
“We speak without fear or favor. . . . We favor no country.”15 Lest anyone question his
lack of loyalty to the government, he provided his attitude toward national fidelity.
“Patriotism has been fanned into a flame. The religious passion has been invoked, and
the national gods called upon for defense in each case. What blasphemy!”16 In this
12Frank Bartleman, “The European War,” The Weekly Evangel, 10 July 1915, 3.
Bartleman wrote the best selling and possibly definitive account of the Azusa Street
Revival in Los Angeles, California, (led by the son of former slaves, William Seymour)
the birthplace of the Pentecostal movement.
13Ibid.
14Ibid.
15Ibid.
16Ibid.
7
manner the answering of the war question was taking definite shape among pentecostals,
specifically within the Assemblies of God.
Bartleman provided another article to The Weekly Evangel one month later. In it
he continued his tirade against the greedy nations and patriotism, his defense of the
outcasts, his condemnation of war, and he added a call to repentance.
It is not worth while for Christians to wax warm in patriotism over this world’s
situation. . . . American capitalists, leaders and manufacturers are as deep in the mud
as the others. . . . [Germans] are in the wrong sometimes also, and they are likely to
stand by their country, right or wrong. England will do that also. America will do the
same thing. There is not principle enough in any of these countries to overcome that.17
Bartleman appealed to principle as a reason to abstain and blamed “nominal Christianity”
(the opposite of radical pentecostal Christianity) for the disastrous wars. Discussing the
evils of war caused him to remember the other evils in which America had participated
and he thus revealed more of his social conscience.
We have killed off about all of our American Indians. What we have not killed
outright we have starved. . . . Will not God deal in judgment with such a nation as
this? Most assuredly! We have stolen the land from the North American Indians. . . .
Our wrong to the black people was avenged in blood. What will the next be?18
Bartleman condemned participation in the European war and called for a
transformation of thinking. He admitted that the world would continue to kill but that did
not mean they needed Christian participation.
Hence we need a call at this time as a nation to repentance. I suppose it will be always
possible for our nation to hire men to slay others. But the spirit of patriotism is not
going to burn very bright in a people who are ruled by grafters.19
17Frank Bartleman, “What Will the Harvest Be?” The Weekly Evangel, 7 August
1915, 1.
18Ibid., 2.
19Ibid.
http://www.pcpfsf.org/files/early_ag_war.pdf
-------------------------------------------------

Paul Alexander mentions pacifism frequently in this article and I believe that is what his position is.
What he brings to light though, is the stance that many in the church took around the beginning of the 1900s on Biblical Nonresistance.

My question is this, If the early church 100, 200, 300 A.D. taught nonresistance and we see that it was taught by more than one denomination
through the years, what has happened to the teaching of the church today?
As these all use the teachings of our Lord Jesus
Christ. Is the majority of the present day, so called church, blatantly ingnoring the Word of God and early church precedence?
What ye all think?

In His Love

pastorfrin

The early church was uniformly against Christian involvement with violence - for the first 300 years after Christ died. It was a church fallen that became violent.

Check out www.thejesusgospel.com. It is a new Christian peace site.

Colekane said:

The early church was uniformly against Christian involvement with violence - for the first 300 years after Christ died. It was a church fallen that became violent.

Hi Colekane, Welcome.

I say this not to be confrontational but to point out a difference in teaching. It is not what early Christians were against, but what they were for. That is obeying the teachings of Christ and His teaching was nonresistance. We call it Biblical Nonresistance, which is simply following the teachings of Christ. This was not only followed by early Christians, but has been taught and followed by different groups of Christians since the time of Christ.
I looked at the site thejesusgospel.com. One word
the site uses frequently is Pacifism, this is not the same as Biblical Nonresistance and should not be proclaimed as such.

"Nonresistance and Pacifism Contrasted

Today, organizations such as On Earth Peace Assembly, Peace Studies at Manchester College, Brethren Colleges Abroad, and Christian Citizenship Seminar seek to promote the "peace position" of the church and strengthen the "social justice witness." Despite new efforts at promoting a peace witness, most Brethren (nearly two-thirds) would either enter regular military service or noncombatant military service if faced with a draft. Only one-third would maintain the historical Brethren premise that it is wrong to help in any war by fighting. Arguably, a complete transformation had taken place, and the differences between biblical nonresistance and today's secular pacifism stand in stark contrast of one another when compared side by side.

Biblical Nonresistance
1. Thinks in terms of individual peace with God, with peace among the nations coming only when men submit to the rule of Christ.

2. Sees failure in any attempt to effect a permanent reformation of human nature apart from God's grace.

3. Refuses to participate in military service because such service conflicts with the new nature received in Christ.

4. Believes his allegiance is to the higher kingdom which forbids his involvement in earthly government.

5. Has a passive interest only in the activities of state and makes no effort to influence international diplomacy.

6. Considers himself a pilgrim and stranger here and gives priority to citizenship in God's kingdom.

7. Regards war as an inevitable and recurring evil so long as the heart of man is not at peace with God through the blood of His son.

8. Works primarily to bring people in the world into peace with God.

9. Believes in a complete separation of church and state.

10. Sees no way to realize a worldwide friendly society without the work of intervening grace and divine power.

11. Primarily concerned with preaching the Gospel which is the 'power of God unto salvation', and with spreading the teachings of Christ.

12. Works for spiritual regeneration in the life of the individual through the new birth, and for the establishment of a Christian society within the church.

Secular Pacifism
1. Thinks in terms of effecting peace among the nations.

2. Has confidence in an evolutionary process of mankind through human achievement.

3. Opposes war because it conflicts with its ideology.

4. The ideal of a political order embracing international law and order requires participation in political activities.

5. Has an active interest in administering the affairs of the state motivated by the desire to influence policies.

6. Considers itself responsible for working for a just world order.

7. Urges disarmament as a step toward abolition of war.

8. Works directly for international peace.

9. Promotes legislation to accomplish ends.

10. Hopes to achieve ends through education and legislation.

11. Concerned with the use of various types of propaganda to accomplish its purposes.

12. Often ignores the necessity of regeneration and works for the reconstruction of society through social reform.

(John Mumma, Vital Differences.)
In short, biblical nonresistance supports separation from the world, while the peace position supports a moral, global community, without regard for the regenerating power of Christ."

As you can see there is a big difference in the actual meaning of these two words. We all must be sure of who's teaching we are following, that of Christ or of man. Remember there will always be a counter teaching that looks very simular to that of CHRIST but if you look close you will see it glorifies man.

In His Love

pastorfrin

I think no one here would say that a believer couldn't work as a fireman in the secular world - but could the same be said as a policeman, and carry a gun? Both firemen and police work to serve the community and preserve human life. Is it easier to think a Christian can be a firefighter due to firefighting does not have the potential of causing [i]bodily harm[/i] to another human being? Aren't both these professions linked to city municipalities, and thus, local government?

Where do we draw a line to what a Christian can or can't do? I think that by drawing such clear lines of demarcation between certain professions we run the risk of trodding down a Jehovah Witnesses or an L. Ron Hubbard "Dyanetic" path: Don't vote, don't acknowledge certain legislative injunctions or ordinances, don't make use of certain and beneficial medical advancements, etc.

But where do we draw the line between "firefighter" and "cop" - and, on a a larger scale, soldier and the citizen? I've read of starving women in Nazi concentration camps who [i]refused[/i] to eat the food given by one who slept with a German guard. Where is our compunction for the same who enjoy the blood-purchased benefits of typing on SI and walking freely into Christian bookstores, while disdaining the poor, defrauded and deceived kids that went into unchristlike battle?

I praise the Lord we that have a born-again Christian as President whom God uses to exact judgment on Islamic terrorists as all the world stands back and criticizes. It's a terrifying thought when you consider what would happen if all Christian influence in the American military were to suddenly cease (perhaps soon this will be a fact), and there were no more Spirit-filled chaplains, no more Stonewall Jacksons, no more E.M. Bounds to guide the men.

It is not as cut-and-dry as we think. God evidentally sends certain men to the military to accomplish His purpose, and for someone to make such a blanket statement that no Christian has his or her business in the military...well, it is unfounded. Had I not joined the army, I might not have been redeemed. One of the most powerful men of God I've ever met in my life - and one who I still consider my spiritual father - was in the military, a drill sergeant and Vietnam vet. A Special Forces commando. The most precious, wise, humble and anointed man of God you could ever encounter. And he was a mighty killer like David and Benaniah. I love God and his humanly illogical ways.

Brother Paul

Brother Paul,

Professions one would choose, is not the issue but Biblical Nonresistance. This is what Jesus taught and our choice of a profession should be based on the Word of God instead of the vain reasoning’s of men.
So do we set aside the teachings of Jesus Christ so we can act upon what our human nature bids us to do or question. Jesus prayed, Father not my will but thy will be done.
Until we are willing to pray the same prayer in spite of our experience or emotion we will never be hearers or doers of His Word.
He could have called for more than twelve legions of angels but instead He obeyed the will of the Father. He has asked us to do the same. Simple, believe God, His Word says it very plainly:

Matthew 5:38-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

These scriptures have been gone over and over and answered all arguments that say Jesus did not mean what He said, so I will not elaborate any father. After reading the teachings of Christ you still want to do the opposite then do so, I did not say you could not, but when you pull the trigger, justify it against the words of Jesus Christ the Lord, for it is His Word that will judge us all.

In His Love

pastorfrin

You didn't answer my question about the firefighter and the policeman, brother. Can a Christian be a firefighter and not violate scripture? Can a Christian be a policeman without violating scripture?

I hope you're not getting upset at my challenge; you've already alluded that my reasonings are of "men" and "vain". Please let's try to remain humble.

Brother Paul

Dear brother, John the Baptist encountered a group of repentant soldiers in Luke 3 that desired to be baptized. The soldiers asked him, "What shall we do?" Notice, John didn't tell them to lay down their arms and leave the service. Here is Matthew Henry's commentary on these verses:

"He tells the soldiers their duty, (verse 14). Some think that these soldiers were of the Jewish nation and religion: others think that they were Romans; for it was not likely either that the Jews would serve the Romans or that the Romans would trust the Jews in their garrisons in their own nation; and then it is an early instance of Gentiles embracing the gospel and submitting to it.

Military men seldom seem inclined to religion; yet these submitted even to the Baptist’s strict profession, and desired to receive the word of command from him: "What must we do?" Those who more than other men have their lives in their hands, and are in deaths often, are concerned to enquire what they shall do that they may be found in peace. [b]In answer to this enquiry, John does not bid them lay down their arms, and desert the service, but cautions them against the sins that soldiers were commonly guilty of; for this is fruit meet for repentance, to keep ourselves from our iniquity.[/b]

[1.] They must not be injurious to the people among whom they were quartered, and over whom indeed they were set: "Do violence to no man. Your business is to keep the peace, and prevent men’s doing violence to one another; but do not you do violence to any. Shake no man’’ ( so the word signifies); "do not put people into fear; for the sword of war, as well as that of justice, is to be a terror only to evil doers, but a protection to those that do well. Be not rude in your quarters; force not money from people by frightening them. Shed not the blood of war in peace; offer no incivility either to man or woman, nor have any hand in the barbarous devastations that armies sometimes make.’’ Nor must they accuse any falsely to the government, thereby to make themselves formidable, and get bribes.

[2.] They must not be injurious to their fellow-soldiers; for some think that caution, not to accuse falsely, has special reference to them: "Be not forward to complain one of another to your superior officers, that you may be revenged on those whom you have a pique against, or undermine those above you, and get into their places.’’ Do not oppress any; so some think the word here signifies as used by the Septuagint in several passages of the Old Testament.

[3.] They must not be given to mutiny, or contend with their generals about their pay: "Be content with your wages. While you have what you agreed for, do not murmur that it is not more.’’ It is discontent with what they have that makes men oppressive and injurious; they that never think they have enough themselves will not scruple at any the most irregular practices to make it more, by defrauding others. It is a rule to all servants that they be content with their wages; for they that indulge themselves in discontents expose themselves to many temptations, and it is wisdom to make the best of that which is."

Brother Frin, you posted this earlier, and I'm wondering from what scripture you derived this from:

(The Biblical stance of non-resistance) Believes his allegiance is to the higher kingdom which forbids his involvement in earthly government.

Brother Paul

The early church was uniformly against Christian involvement with violence

I'm not sure "uniformly" has ever been a word that describes the Church.

Some of the early Church fathers did express a tolerance for Christians soldiers serving police duties. Tertullian who repeatedly denounced violence for the Christian also said he prayed for the security of the Roman State and for the courage of her soldiers...which perhaps is an admission that peace by any means was preferrable to war. It is also his recognition that the "state" has rights to commit violence that the individual does not have. (In which case, how would Tertullian view hunting and killing a terrorist who is essentially a stateless criminal and murderer?")

Lately I have been considering how God's Kingdom is in sharp but glorious contrast to the landscapes and cities we see spread out under national flags. Perhaps discussing what the "Church" should do is too broad and complex...yet it occurs to me that I should indeed abstain from the wickedness of this world, including killing brought about by envy and strife. (Seemingly peacable people, such as myself, can stir up strife simply by being happily removed from the endless suffering of others.)

So here I am a great guy who wants peace...but not so fast! Tertullian's prayers for the security of the state exposes a troubling pitfall of 'non-resistance". We pacific Christians continue to have children, and to benifit in many ways from the security paid by the physical and psychic anguish suffered by others. Worse yet we believe that their willingness to commit violence is really hazarding their own souls!

This is the current question in my own heart. Christians should owe no man anything except love. Yet, many of us owe a great deal more then that if we try to synthesize pacifism with an affluent...or even secure American life style.

So for me...if we are going to discuss peace, we should also be willing to discuss poverty and ultimately disenfranchisement from our own countries. (It is we, brothers and sisters, who are the real illegal aliens in America!) I cannot see how we can pray for the security of the state while condemning her securers. The implications to me are shattering to my whole world view as a citizen of this world. I truly desire to move towards a non-resistance position...not for the humanistic liberal establishment that exalts in the glory of man, but to abide in the meekness and gentleness of Christ that brings light into the darkness. Yet with each step I take in that direction reveals to me that I am out of joint with the Kingdom of God on a great many more issues then just violence.

Blessings as we discuss these things with humility saints,

MC

Brother Paul,

You error in your assumption, I was pointing to the Word of God and not your position on the matter.
Ephes. 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

You are not seeking an answer but an opinion, and I have none to offer. If you are really seeking an answer it was given to you in God’s Word. The choice is then up to you.

Humbly, In His Love ;-)

Pastorfrin

Ps. Your most recent post is covered earlier in the thread.

MC said:

I truly desire to move towards a non-resistance position...not for the humanistic liberal establishment that exalts in the glory of man, but to abide in the meekness and gentleness of Christ that brings light into the darkness. Yet with each step I take in that direction reveals to me that I am out of joint with the Kingdom of God on a great many more issues then just violence.

Yes brother MC and each step we take into the light of His Word will expose more darkness within us and as we repent, replace the darkness with His glorious light.
Is this not the way our children learn to walk?
One step at a time.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This we must keep before us as we walk toward Him, the way is not a crowded road.

In HIs Love

pastorfrin

If you are really seeking an answer it was given to you in God’s Word.

Okay, brother. I was only questioning your interpretation of God's word, and not looking for an argument. I'm sorry you felt invoked to use those scriptures in Titus and Ephesians against my reasonable question. Am I not thus permitted to challenge your interpretation without it being chalked up to vanity and strife? I am also former military (I'm currently in the Texas National Guard - if you were stranded in a flood, my boys and I would come rescue your family) and I feel just as strongly as you do about this war issue, only I'm on the other side of the camp and feel that I can use scripture to graciously refute the [i]exclusive[/i] non-resistance stance. It's a shame that a humble, God-honoring discussion couldn't ensue.

Our Lord's blessings be upon you. Have a fantastic weekend, dear brother!

Brother Paul

Brother Paul,

you said:

Okay, brother. I was only questioning your interpretation of God's word, and not looking for an argument. I'm sorry you felt invoked to use those scriptures in Titus and Ephesians against my reasonable question. Am I not thus permitted to challenge your interpretation without it being chalked up to vanity and strife? I am also former military (I'm currently in the Texas National Guard - if you were stranded in a flood, my boys and I would come rescue your family) and I feel just as strongly as you do about this war issue, only I'm on the other side of the camp and can use every scripture you quote to graciously refute your non-resistance stance. It's a shame that a humble, God-honoring discussion couldn't ensue.

Again you error , I was not using scripture against your questions or against you, but to show our Lord Jesus Christ left no room for interpretation in His teaching or life example. He and His disciples taught nonresistance and there is no argument that can change that. Man will insist on using his reasoning’s and emotions as well, to justify his
Lust:

James 4:1-3
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? [2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. [3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

But this does not change the fact that Jesus or his disciples never ( except for Peter) who was immediately rebuked by Jesus for doing so, ever condoned by word or example the doctrine of a Christian using the sword against another human.
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

This is what Jesus taught and there is no room for argument. Is it not a shame when one is thought of, as not humble, when they refuse to argue?
As I said earlier brother all your concerns have been covered in previous post, read and then we may discuss.

In His Love

pastorfrin

As I said earlier brother all your concerns have been covered in previous post, read and then we may discuss.

Brother, I looked for a treatment on Luke 3 and couldn't find it. You also seem to have totally brushed aside the Matthew Henry insight I provided, which I thought was very solid, sober and godly. Was it because Henry's interpretation uses Luke 3 to refute your non-resistance stand?

I understand this may be upsetting to you because most everyone here has been in agreement with the idea of a pseudo Christian/Ghandian form of non-resistant pacifism (I understand these two words have different meanings, though the two seem to have converged on this thread), and I also realize that you've suffered from post-traumatic stress and I could never, [i]ever[/i] understand the horror you went through...but at the same time I must also use the Word of God and examine each and every bit [i]in context[/i] and view the whole with no preconceptions to make it bend to my ideals.

You keep saying that your view is the uncontested and point-blank truth as seen from Jesus' words. You keep telling me I'm in error because I challenge your interpretation. Do you not know that this topic is [i]highly[/i] controversial, and has been debated for centuries and centuries, and yet you suddenly claim to have the all-authoritive interpretation of [i]exclusive[/i] non-resistance? Not at all to mock, but it's too bad you weren't around in the 1860's to tell Stonewall Jackson this before revival broke out among the Confederate troops. Someone should have also informed Abraham Lincoln that his Presidency and adherence to the United States government made him a member of Satan's kingdom rather than of God's. Brother, this is just asinine, unfair, conspiracy-theorized, and not true. I humbly contend that God has many Spirit-regenerated men working in law enforcement and in the military and for various government agencies - and they are there as shining lights by the will of God, and God didn't ask us first if it jibed with our scriptural interpretations before He placed them there. Historical men of God worked for militant kings, and obeyed their injunctions. Need I mention the genesis of the King James Bible? I'm glad God had godly men on hand to translate and obey a commission and be subservient to their king, as scripture commands.

Not to be contentious (though it gets weary being told over and over again "you're wrong" with no explanation why), but where did you extrapolate that a true Biblical adherent of Christ's words should not work for a government agency?

Something like that could [i]only[/i] come from an interpretation, and I think any reasonable person in these forums can agree.

Brother Paul

Bibllical Nonresistance

[color=0066CC]"I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." Revelation 19:11[/color]

There's nothing nonresistant about that!

Nice edit Brother, what you did say.

Brother Paul said:

Quote: “
Brother, I looked for a treatment on Luke 3 and couldn't find it."
-------------------------------------------------

John the Baptizer was the last of the OT prophets, so his injunction to the soldiers who came to him for divine counsel was in the light of the OT precepts for members of the military: for the soldier not be dishonest or unnecessarily violent, or discontent with their wages. His words, “Do violence to no person,” applied to unjust use of force that was so prevalent in occupation armies, who would tend to take advantage of their foreign subjects.

These seem like thin reeds on which to hang a doctrine of just war. First of all, many soldiers in the Roman army were not engaged in fighting, but were little more than bureaucrats administering the vast machinery of empire. So, it seems to read a lot into the Baptist's comments to say that he was commending war as such. This is reinforced by his admonition not to falsely accuse people - it suggests that these soldiers were acting more like military police.
Secondly, we have to reckon with Jesus' own statements on the matter, and certainly they carry more weight than those of John the Baptist.
-------------------------------------------------

You said:
Quote: “
I understand this may be upsetting to you because most everyone here has been agreeing with you, and I realize you've suffered from post-traumatic stress and I could never, ever understand the horror you went through.”
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Brother, this is not so and I forgive you for making such an assumption. In fact brother it is pure speculation on your part to even assume I would be upset that you do not agree with me, and then to tie that in with my experience with PTSD is reprehensible. I realize that a large percent of the population on this sight does not agree with me, as well as those in this and other countries, that does not change the words of Christ.
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You said:
Quote: “
Not to be contentious (though it gets weary being told over and over again "you're wrong" with no explanation why), but where did you extrapolate that a true Biblical adherent of Christ's words should not work for a government agency?
Something like that could only come from an interpretation, and I think any reasonable person in these forums can agree."
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Brother, again you are found in error, you see I am employed by the Veterans Administration. So it seems you have miss interpreted what was said in this thread, imagine that. Yes any reasonable person can see your motives and I for one do not care for them. I am not mad or upset with you brother, only disappointed.:-o

In His Love

Pastorfrin

most everyone here has been in agreement with the idea of a pseudo Christian/Ghandian form of non-resistant pacifism

Brother Paul,

I think you may be characterizing abit here. ;-)

I do not presume to know the answer to all these difficult questions...they are not simple matters. The two societies that Abraham Lincoln and Stonewall Jackson served are long gone in my opinion. Inspite of the horrors of the Civil War, they saw only a glimpse of the holocaust that crouches at the door of modern nations.

I think it is worthwhile to marvel from time to time how powerful our nation is. We spend more money on warfare then the 10 next largest nations in the world combined. We alone have 13 Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups crawling around the globe. We hope our government is a good sterward of this fearsome power, but the bible advises us that the spirit of anti-christ is already in the world...

In the very least, this thread for me is an exercise is self-inspection. If only because we are the most powerful military power this world has ever seen, let's be a people who know how to search our hearts when it comes to these matters.

Blessings,

MC

I cannot see how we can pray for the security of the state while condemning her securers.

Diane

"I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." Revelation 19:11

There's nothing nonresistant about that!

"I will shake the heavens and the earth.
I will overturn royal thrones
and shatter the power of the foreign kingdoms.
I will overthrow chariots and their drivers;
horses and their riders will fall,
each by the sword of his brother." Haggai 2:21,22

It is always wise to keep in mind the fact that ultimately no nation will win. God will overthow them all. I wonder how many warriors down through the ages have been aware of this while in the heat of battle - ready and willing to die.

Clearly, no matter what we believe about (non)resistance, we can't deny the fact that in the bigger scheme of things all nations fight losing battles - always.

What are the implications for us?

Diane

Nadine said:
Quote:

Bibllical Nonresistance

"I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." Revelation 19:11

There's nothing nonresistant about that!
________________________________________

Sister Diane said:
Quote:
Indeed! Add these words:

"I will shake the heavens and the earth.
I will overturn royal thrones
and shatter the power of the foreign kingdoms.
I will overthrow chariots and their drivers;
horses and their riders will fall,
each by the sword of his brother." Haggai 2:21,22

It is always wise to keep in mind the fact that ultimately no nation will win. God will overthow them all. I wonder how many warriors down through the ages have been aware of this while in the heat of battle - ready and willing to die.

Clearly, no matter what we believe about (non)resistance, we can't deny the fact that in the bigger scheme of things all nations fight losing battles - always.

What are the implications for us?

Diane
_________________________________________________

pastorfrin says:

Praise God,
Let us finish quoting Rev. 19 and see;

Rev. 19:11-21 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. [17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; [18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. [19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. [20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. [21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Indeed is right and notice‘who’in righteousness, is judging and making war. Notice as well the names He is called, Faithful and True, The Word of God. Oh, and while we are in the process of observation, notice His weapon of choice, and out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword. What is He going to do with that sword? That with it He should smite the nations. Did he say nations? Yup. Who is going to smite the nations?

Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Who in the nations will He slay?

Rev. 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Notice: Kings, captains, mighty men, horses and those that sit on them and all men both bond and free, small and great. It will make NO DIFFERENCE, your free, you are still included, your rich, you are still included. Why? Look at the next verses.

Rev. 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

We see the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, now look at verse 20.

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
The beast and the false prophet are both cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. So where is the kings of the earth and their armies, you know the captains and the mighty, the bond and free, both small and great?

Look at verse 21

Rev. 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
If the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the fire, then the remnant would be all the kings of the earth and their armies which He, The King of Kings and Lord of Lord’s slays with the sword that proceeded out of His mouth. The Word of God. He speaks and His enemies are destroyed.

You are right Nadine, its not nonresistance, its NO resistance. None can stand before His Word guilty! Only those who’s names are written in the Lambs Book of Life.

Sister Diane,
Your question, What are the implications for us?
Do not belong to the armies of the kings of the earth. Only the army of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and we will be in secure hands, for His Sword is His Word.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

When He returns His servants still do not fight for He does it all with the Sword, no carnal weapons involved. Praise His Holy Name!

In His Love

pastorfrin

Sister Diane,
Your question, What are the implications for us?
Do not belong to the armies of the kings of the earth. Only the army of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and we will be in secure hands, for His Sword is His Word.

I cannot say that I do not participate in the armies of the “kings of the earth”. I pay my taxes, I observe Remembrance Day. I wear a poppy. – I offer musical contributions at memorial services. I sing the national anthem. In that sense I am non-resistant – I do not resist the “resisters”, ie, kingdom builders. If there was war on my land, I would (hopefully) do my best to offer my services – perhaps to help the dying, offer encouragement, or wherever God would lead me. It’s about the people, not their kingdom.

Daily, I participate in the dying “kingdoms” of this world – in educational, religious institutions, etc. There is a reason I do this: It is the people I am giving myself towards. Institutions or nations cannot be redeemed but people are redeemable. Jesus went where the people were, the lost and the needy. He did not exclude the “dying kingdoms”.

Above all, I have a calling to be an instrument of peace – by seeking reconciliation between God and man - through Christ: “He is our peace”.

That leads us to the thread, “[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16106&forum=36&11]Who hath made them both one[/url]
Perhaps dwelling there, will help us grasp the implications our earthly calling – as it relates to our peacemaker role. (as oppposed to peace-keeping)
It's really about partnering with God who tore down the wall of hostility.

“Blessed are the peacemakers…”
What does that mean?

Diane

Hello dear sister,

you said:

Pastorfrin, I believe, and I know that you do to, that there are far greater implications than merely abstaining from earthly armies (which wouldn’t apply to most of us, anyway)

Yes sister, this is true, far greater. Do you believe that most see this? The point is that the spirit of antichrist is so deceiving that it is able to deceive all the kingdoms, with all the kings with all of their armies and the real scary part is with most of the people. Sister the people, the very people we have and are dedicating our lives to help. What have we been taught since childhood? Our leaders, our government and our country is all for good, and against evil. We are older now and some of us know the difference.
I live in the country and as you know pastor a little country church. If you drive around you soon began to see things very disturbing. Families who are living in truck campers the kind, that slip into the bed of a pickup, but without the truck. Not single parent, but fathers, mothers and children. In shacks with no glass in the windows and cracks in the walls you can see in or out of. All this is in the north where it is still winter, six inches of snow, fell today with thirty mile an hour winds. You may ask what does that have to do with nonresistance? They are people, there government and the churches have abandoned
to make war. Our little church can only help a few and there are so many. The big churches are to busy with their programs. The riches country in the world and we have such a large number of residents living in real poverty, many of which are veterans. Why?

Diane said:

Daily, I participate in the dying “kingdoms” of this world – in educational, religious institutions, etc. There is a reason I do this: It is the people I am giving myself towards. Institutions or nations cannot be redeemed but people are redeemable. Jesus went where the people were, the lost and the needy. He did not exclude the “dying kingdoms”.

Yes sister it is the people, all the people, of all the kingdoms of the world; only their eyes must be removed from the kingdoms of this earth and unto His glorious kingdom or all will be lost. “He is our peace” but only if one receives Him. Why do we pray…?
Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Diane, you said:

Above all, I have a calling to be an instrument of peace – by seeking reconciliation between God and man - through Christ: “He is our peace”.
That leads us to the thread, “Who hath made them both one Perhaps dwelling there, will help us grasp the implications our earthly calling – as it relates to our peacemaker role. (as oppposed to peace-keeping)

The wall is the kingdoms of this world and as long as people are looking at them they will never see Him. Do you see, it’s the Jewish kingdom, the Gentile kingdom, the so called churches kingdom, on the right and on the left and every one of these kingdoms have created a wall, to block the view so none can see, The Lord: They are all, through fear and torment hiding behind there own walls, where they seek a false security.
Our calling is to point them to Him,
Matthew 6:13
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Diane, you said:

“Blessed are the peacemakers…” What does that mean?

Maybe its those who point man to the One who removed all the walls of separation from our Father through His Blood: Ephes. 2:13-14
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Or maybe its those that proclaim the will of the Father:

Matthew 18:14
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Is this not our will, no matter what wall they may be hiding behind. If we have become one in Him! Not one, not one little one should perish.
Yes Lord, may this be our prayer.

In His Love

pastorfrin

Sister Diane,

You said:

I cannot say that I do not participate in the armies of the “kings of the earth”. I pay my taxes, I observe Remembrance Day. I wear a poppy. – I offer musical contributions at memorial services. I sing the national anthem. In that sense I am non-resistant – I do not resist the “resisters”, ie, kingdom builders. If there was war on my land, I would (hopefully) do my best to offer my services – perhaps to help the dying, offer encouragement, or wherever God would lead me. It’s about the people, not their kingdom.

For many years I was heavily involved in both the American Legion and the VFW. I served, as commander for ten years, as chaplain, and about every other office there is. I have marched in many Memorial Day parades, and served in the honor guard for many funerals.
In a Memorial Day parade a number of years ago children were asking us to fire our weapons as we marched back from the cemetery to the staging area, as they often would do. After we had fired our weapons one young boy said to me, wow mister that is awesome, how many of the enemy did you kill? I took my M16 home locked it in the safe and have not fired it or marched in a parade since. Why? I was teaching kids to think killing was awesome and that we honor people for doing it.
This is my personal feelings between me and the Lord and I do not hold any one else to it. I only ask that we all search our own hearts and find what our motives truly are for backing and glorifying war. Why do we feel so good when we honor such things when in doing so we cause young children to desire to kill the enemy? Would it not be much more productive to teach them who the true enemy really is?
John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Then to teach them what weapons are effective against him?

2 Cor. 10:3-6
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) [5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; [6] And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So instead of teaching our children to think with their emotions, which does exalt itself against the knowledge of God, would it not be better to teach them through His Word which sets us free and brings our thoughts into the obedience of Christ.

John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Yes, we are to minister to people in all ways according to His Word, not through what makes us feel good, but with what point’s people to Jesus Christ.

John 13:33-35
Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. [34] A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. [35] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

By this, His Love for one another, Will all men know that we are His.

Would this not be a more productive teaching for our children; To give our lives for one another, instead of taking one anothers life?

In His Love

pastorfrin

Brothers and Sisters,
Some questions answered and possible raised.

An article from the Brethren Revival Fellowship
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THE CHRISTIAN AND NONRESISTANCE

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by Harold S. Martin
"Nonresistance is a principle taught in the Scriptures. The word "nonresistance" is coined from the words of our Lord, when He said, "But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil, but whosoever smites thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." From the very origin of the Anabaptist Movement, nonresistance was one of the chief pillars of its doctrinal belief. The historian, Robert Proud, says that the Anabaptists "hold it not becoming those who follow Christ, to bear arms or fight, because they say their true Master has forbidden his disciples to resist evil."

Nonresistance is really a result of the doctrine of grace. Certainly those who have become recipients of God's grace in their own lives, should show the same grace toward their fellowmen. God displayed His grace toward us while we were yet sinners. He loved us when we were enemies, and just so we are to love our enemies, and to display grace toward those who persecute us.

The principle of nonresistance must be practiced in times of peace as well as in times of war. The Christian must be careful not to take revenge. The Scriptures teach against retaliation with the tongue, and against suing at the law. The early Christians were commended because they took joyfully "the spoiling of their goods" (Hebrews 10:34). They refused to resist evil; they didn't fight back; they knew that they had a heritage in Heaven that the spoilers couldn't touch.

PRINCIPLES OF THE DOCTRINE

Every teaching has some basic principles upon which it is built. We want to name three principles that underlie the doctrine of nonresistance.

(1) The kingdom of Christ is not of this world. There are two kingdoms of men in the world; those who have been regenerated by faith In Jesus Christ, and those who are unregenerate. Jesus says, "My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight" (John 18:36). Christ's kingdom is made up of those who have experienced the saving grace of God in their lives. His kingdom is not supported by armies and maintained by taxes. Rather, it is a kingdom composed of persons who voluntarily believe in Jesus Christ, and seek to become like Him in their daily character and conduct. One who is a member of Christ's kingdom is instructed to bless his persecutors, and to pray for evildoers, and to love his enemies. And if you love a man, you are not going to put a bullet through him, nor ram a bayonet into his body, nor drop bombs on him. The standards of Christ's kingdom are different from the standards of the kingdoms of this world. One who claims to submit to Christ's kingship, will find that the army, the navy and the air force are not for him.

Because Christ's kingdom is not of this world, the early Christians refused to participate in military service. Tertullian says of the legions of the Roman army, "Not a Christian could be found among them." In the early days of Christianity, the Church said, "if they wish to be baptized in the Lord, let them cease from military service, or not be received." The historian, C. J. Cadoux says that no Christian after his conversion "ever thought of enlisting in the army, until nearly two hundred years after Christ." The early Christians recognized that Christ's kingdom is not of this world, and that His standards are much higher than the standards of the world-kingdoms--and therefore nonresistance was believed and practiced by the entire church.

(2) The spirit of Christ is not of this world. Jesus came into a Samaritan village one day and the Bible says that the folks there didn't receive Him. When James and John saw this, they wanted to call fire down from heaven to consume these people. But this was all contrary to the spirit of Christ, and it must have sorely grieved Him. Luke 9:55 says, "But (Jesus) turned and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of, for the Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Taking the lives of human beings is contrary to the spirit of Christ.

General Leslie McNair (in a New York Times article) described the attitudes and the spirit promoted in the armed services. He says, "Our soldiers must have a fighting spirit; if you call that hating enemies, then we must hate with every fiber of our being. We must lust for battle; we must scheme and plan night and day to kill; we must hit harder and harder we must become tougher and tougher; the avowed purpose of the army is to make killers out of every soldier." Can you reconcile such an attitude with the teachings and the spirit of Jesus?

One young man who had been in the army during World War II, tells how one of his buddies in training was kind of softhearted. When they were training, they were to drive their bayonets Into the stomachs of a dummy victim. This fellow was kind of slow and timid about the whole thing, and finally the officer lost his patience, swore at the young fellow, and ordered him to get up in front of that dummy and "cut out his guts." He reminded him that this was war, and not a Sunday School picnic, and that every man in the camp was there to learn how to kill Germans.

It's impossible to have the spirit of Christ within, and at the same time bear arms. The carnal sword and the spirit of Jesus do not point in the same direction.

(3) The methods of Christ are not of this world. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 10:3, 4, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: for the weapons of out warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds." Jesus endured much reviling and persecution when He was here on earth, and yet never once did He use carnal weapons for defense. And the same thing can be said for true Christians down through the centuries. They have won their battles by using the breastplate of righteousness, and the shield of faith, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.

The Christian doesn't use carnal weapons, but this does not mean that he is helpless in the face of evil and unrighteousness. Take the weapon of prayer for example. When (during the persecutions of the early church) Peter was cast into prison, the Bible says, "Prayer was made without ceasing, of the Church, unto God for him" (Acts 12:5). The people prayed. Here the power of prayer was pitted against the power of the armed might of the Roman Empire-and those who prayed won the battle! The iron gate opened, and Peter was set free. More things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of.

Another powerful weapon used by the believer, is the practice of deeds of kindness. Jesus says, "Do good unto them that hate you." Paul puts it this way: "if your enemy hunger, feed him." We have a beautiful illustration of the victory of kindness over evil in 2 Kings 6. The Syrian army had been delivered into the hands of Israel through the intervention of the prophet Elisha. And when the king of Israel saw that the enemy had been delivered into his hand, he said to Elisha, "Shall I smite them?" And he said again, a second time, "Shall I smite them?" This may have been the most natural course of action, but Elisha said, "Thou shalt not smite them, (but) set bread and water before them that they may eat and drink, and go to their master." Elisha said, "Feed them and let them go." Show them kindness, he said. And that's what the king of Israel did. And you know, there's an interesting postscript to this story: 2 Kings 6:23 says, "So the bands of Syria came no more into the land of Israel."

The Christian's weapons are spiritual. He conquers with the power of the Cross. Menno Simons used to say, "Our fortress is Christ, our sword is the Word of God, out victory is faith in the Almighty. We let swords of iron and steel to those who consider human blood equal to swine's blood." The Christian has spiritual weapons.

These have been principles upon which the doctrine of nonresistance is based. The kingdom of Christ, the spirit of Christ and the methods of Christ are not of this world.

2. PROBLEMS OF THE DOCTRINE

Most every doctrine carries with it some related matters that seem to be problems. We want to look primarily at the problem of Israel's practice in Old Testament days. The Old Testament frequently tells about the wars of Israel, and many of these wars were authorized and commanded by God. It's hard for the Christian to reconcile this with the command to "resist not evil" in the New Testament. Jesus said the Scriptures cannot be broken, and they do not contradict themselves, and so the problem seems to be very real.

There are at least three things we must remember here:

[1) Israel was a nation of this world, while the Church is a spiritual nation not of this world. Israel was a nation just like any other nation, except that God had chosen her for a special purpose. The Israelites lived in a particular location on earth; they had boundaries to their possessions; they maintained a government, with a capital city, a throne, a king, and a royal family. And to maintain this nation in the land, God permitted the use of force. But the Church is not such a nation. The Church is a people called out of darkness into the light of the Gospel, from every land and every nation. There's no particular geographical location; there are no boundaries to maintain; there's no capital city; there's no regal throne. Israel was a nation; the Church is not such a nation.

(2) Israel was not a regenerated people, while the Church is composed of those who are regenerate. Romans 8:3, 4 says, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son In the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Israel could not perform the righteousness of the law, for she walked after the flesh. But Christians have been regenerated, and thus are equipped for a new kind of life, and they are called upon to follow a much higher standard than the Old Testament law.

(3) Israel operated under the dispensation of law, while the Church is living during the dispensation of grace. Jesus says, "Ye have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, but I say unto you, that ye resist not evil, but if any man shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." This is an extension that Christ Himself made. He participated in giving the Old Testament law, and certainly He has the right to broaden it. Someone says, "But God never changes, and if God doesn't change, then He can't approve war in the Old Testament, and condemn it in the New Testament." But this is a faulty argument. It's true that God's character never changes, but His methods do change from time to time, from age to age, from dispensation to dispensation. The relationship between the Old and New Testaments is a study that requires take here, but remember that the more space than we will truths of the Old Testament receive a new and deeper significance in the New Testament, in light of Calvary and Pentecost. The New Testament is the Christian's final authority for faith and conduct. If we are to have a true understanding of the will of God, we must always accept the New Testament interpretation of the Old Testament.

Some folks have a problem accepting the doctrine of nonresistance, however, because of a few statements Jesus made, as recorded in the New Testament.

Jesus said, for example, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword." But here the context clearly shows that the word "sword" is a figurative word, which indicates the division and persecution and misunderstanding that will arise in families and communities when there are those members of the family or community who follow Jesus. The parallel reference in Luke 12:51 says, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you nay, but rather division; for from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided; three against two, and two against three." Sometimes Christians will find even members of their own families turning against them.

In another place, Jesus says "He that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip. And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one" (Luke 22:36). Jesus spoke these words just before He went into the Garden to pray. And just a little later, when the crowd had gathered to take Jesus, Peter used the sword. He smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his ear. But Jesus rebuked him for using the sword, and then He said to him, "All that take the sword shall perish by it." And then Jesus graciously restored the servant's ear. Whatever else Jesus meant by the words, "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one," He certainly did not mean that the disciples were free to injure others with the sword. A dagger such as the disciples carried, was often used to cut wood and to slay animals for food.

There are other problems associated with the doctrine of nonresistance, but the basic principles upon which the doctrine is built, are clear. Each one of the problems that sometimes is associated with the doctrine, is really only a seeming contradiction.

3. PROTECTIONS FOR THE DOCTRINE

There are always some who try and make a teaching mean something that it was never intended to mean. For the purpose of safeguarding the doctrine of nonresistance, several things should be pointed out.

(1) War is permitted for civil government. Jesus said, "if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight" (John 18:36) Jesus recognized that the very nature of the kingdoms of this world, demands that they be defended with armed might. The hardness and greed of unconverted human hearts, sometimes seem to understand nothing but the language of force. The sons of God can live a life of love for their enemies, but the sons of men are living under the rule of Satan, and are governed by the law of force. Paul says of the state official (in Romans 13), "He beareth not the sword in vain; for he is a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." The masses of this world will not allow God's Word to control their lives, and therefore they must be held in control by the sword. The state has the authority to punish; it has the right to carry the sword; if there had been no civil authority, only anarchy and chaos would exist, because of the wickedness of human hearts. Both the Old Testament and the New Testament recognize the authority of the state to maintain order by the use of force. And because we recognize this permission in the Scriptures (for governments to use the sword) we cannot (according to modern use of the term) be called "pacifists." Pacifism covers many types of opposition to warfare. It is Satan's counterfeit for the doctrine of nonresistance. True Christians have never advocated the doctrines of present day pacifism. The pacifist aims to establish a better world by eliminating war; he attempts to bring peace and harmony among the unregenerate nations of earth, by working through political influence; his primary mistake lay in the fact that he believes in the innate goodness of man. One pacifist group told John F. Kennedy, "We believe there is a divine power in man, that can save the world from war and destruction." But this contradicts the teaching of our Lord when he says, "For from within, out of the heart of man, proceed murders and wickedness" (Mark 7:20).

The peace-emphasis promoted by most leaders within the churches of America today, is not the doctrine of nonresistance taught in the Bible. Nonresistance describes the faith and life of those who accept the Scriptures as the revealed will of God, and who cannot participate in warfare because their Lord forbids it. He teaches the law of love. Pacifism, on the other hand, is something different. Roland Bainton says that modern pacifism (as promoted by most civil and religious leaders today), is not based so much on Christian principles, as it is on a mere desire for survival. Many of our leaders object to war, not because of loyalty to Christ and the Scriptures, but because they have a fear of death and destruction in this awful atomic age.

(2) Wars will continue until the end. The Bible does not teach that a time will come during this age, when wars will cease. Daniel 9:26 says literally, "Even unto the time of the end, wars and desolations are determined." Jesus, when describing the closing days of this age, says there shall be "wars and rumors of wars". In the closing days of this age, the armies of the world, under the leadership of the Antichrist, will march against Jerusalem for one final burst of rage against God and His people, and there they shall utterly perish (Joel 3:9-12). The Bible teaches that the nations of the world will be universally armed (not disarmed), as we approach the close of this age.

Our early Anabaptist forefathers were not optimistic about the prospects of peace for this age. Harold S. Bender says that they "saw the whole of history (from the fall of the first Adam, down to the Second Coming of Christ), as a great battle between God and His enemies. There was no humanistic vision of getting rid of war in history." The Christian does not expect that economic justice and political cooperation are going to be ushered in by efforts of unrighteous men. Our hope for changing the world, lies in the coming of Christ, who will "judge among the nations," and usher in a kingdom of peace. In the meantime, the Christian obeys his government, pays his taxes, and respects governmental leaders. And only if the government expressly commands us to do that which God has forbidden, only then do we follow the example of Peter and John, when they said, "We ought to obey God rather than men."

War is a terrible thing. One of the survivors of the atomic blast at Hiroshima describes what she saw. She says, "All the houses were demolished; the crumbled walls stretched for many, many miles; people rushed out from the center of impact; their bodies were burned; their skin was hanging down like tags; their faces were swollen to twice their normal size; people were crying aloud with pain." She says, "I saw someone walking, dragging something along. To my surprise it was his own intestines. His stomach was ripped open, and he was dragging it along as he walked without knowing what he was doing." She continues, "My oldest daughter had only two slight wounds, but a month after the bombing, she died from radiation." A soldier who witnessed the air raids in Germany says he saw people coming out of their shelters---insane, wandering about, running away, not knowing where to go. Thousands were killed. Still others died of disease and cold and starvation." No one can ever measure the suffering and misery and heartaches that have resulted from war. And on the Judgment Day, God will hardly look down upon the soldier's bloody hands, and say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

To serve as a conscientious objector to war may bring ridicule from friends, but one who practices nonresistance in life, can stand before God with clean hands, unstained by human blood. And always remember that "a conscience void of offense before God and man," is a greater reward than any human decoration ever offered for bravery on the battlefield. Be grateful to God if your government has provided for alternative service of a constructive nature."
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In His Love

pastorfrin

Brothers and Sisters,

A question for you to ponder. In Matt.5

Matthew 5:21-22
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Notice,

but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

How can we fully agree with this statement, and
then go on to say it is totally justifiable to
kill for the right reason?
If you are in danger of hell fire for calling
someone a fool, what are you in danger of for shooting them? :-?

In His Love

pastorfrin

I'm just throwing these verses out for thought. Sorry if they've already been posted. :-)

Mt 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Jas 5:6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Notice how it says the just don't resist when being killed. I've had some tell me that nonresistance is cowardice, but these verses show how we're to respond to persecution.

Just a thought,
Jordan

Hi Jordan,

No need to be sorry for posting the words of our
Lord.
Notice what the Lord says just before His command
to resist not evil:
Matthew 5:38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

You have heard, or this is what others say but 'I
your Lord' say unto you, resist not evil. Jesus not only commanded nonresistance but He lived it as an example for us to follow.
Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Then James reafirms this in his statement:
Jas 5:6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

If this is cowardice brother then Jesus was a
coward and to accept Him as Lord would be and act of cowardice.
No brother, the bravest thing a man can do is surrender his will to the Lord; after all was it not Jesus who prayed, Father, not my will but thy
will be done.
JESUS, my HERO, my LORD and my EXAMPLE to follow.
Not a coward but, The King of Kings and Lord of Lord's.

In His Love

pastorfrin

Pastorfrin wrote:

If this is cowardice brother then Jesus was a coward and to accept Him as Lord would be and act of cowardice.
No brother, the bravest thing a man can do is surrender his will to the Lord; after all was it not Jesus who prayed, Father, not my will but thy
will be done.
JESUS, my HERO, my LORD and my EXAMPLE to follow.
Not a coward but, The King of Kings and Lord of Lord's.

Actually, to resist giving in to natural impulses requires a greater control of mind, spirit then fighting back. To respond with no force requires an infilling of the Spirit...one cannot react like this in his/her own strength. As a test for this spirit of Biblical nonresistance: how do we respond when people cut in front of you when you are going 70 MPH on the interstate?

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Actually, to resist giving in to natural impulses requires a greater control of mind, spirit then fighting back. To respond with no force requires an infilling of the Spirit...one cannot react like this in his/her own strength. As a test for this spirit of Biblical nonresistance: how do we respond when people cut in front of you when you are going 70 MPH on the interstate.

In the interest of understanding the crux of this issue I think it's important to resist ;-) characterizing those who believe in the role of armed force as simply giving in to uncontrolled anger or impulsive rage. In fact, in my own personal experience, non-resisters can also be quite emotional themselves...often to the point of wishful or innocent sentimantality. Conversely, many Christians who are engaged in law enforcement or the armed services are rational and sensible about their sense of duty and responsibility. For these Christians, anger and hatred is irrelevant to the issue of protection and security.

The use of force, even lethal force, to safegaurd the weak and defenseless does have some appreciable precedent in the lives of many exemplary Christians throughout history. (I'm not talking about the crusades or the inquisition...) We can't dismiss all of these lives as not being (edit: yielded to) the Holy Spirit.

My own beliefs are changing over this issue, precisely because the discussion has nothing to do with emotion but with what we believe scripture and the Holy Spirit informs us about the nature of our Lord. Yet, being in recent flux on this issue has given me a perspective to trust that either side can love the Lord greatly, and to always approach the brother I disagree with in nothing less then high esteem for their motives and character, and always trying to share within a framework of mutual esteem for scripture.

Blessings,

MC

The use of force, even lethal force, to safegaurd the weak and defenseless does have some appreciable precedent in the lives of many exemplary Christians throughout history.

Consider these words in the light of non-resistance:

“If someone wants to sue you
and take your tunic,
let him have your cloak as well…”
Matt. 5:40

In our day of material abundance and ample insurance policies, these words lose their punch. The IVP Bible Background Commentary describes the original audience:

The poorest people of the Empire had only an inner and outer garment, and the theft of a cloak would lead to legal recourse. Although conditions in first-century Palestine were not quite that bad, this verse could indicate divestiture of all one’s possessions, even (hyperbolically) one’s clothes, to avoid legal disputes affection only oneself. Jesus gives this advice in spite of the fact that under Jewish law, a legal case to regain one’s cloak would have been foolproof.; a creditor could not take a poor person’s outer cloak, which might serve as one’s only blanket at night as well as his coat.

And about striking the cheek:
The blow on the right cheek was the most grievous insult possible in the ancient world… both Jewish and Roman law permitted prosecution for this offence.

What might the effect be on the offender when his “victim” essentially invites him to break the law yet again? Might it not convict his conscience in a way that retaliation can never do?

What about Paul’s words to the Corinthians: You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise. In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face. 2 Cor. 11:20

I don’t think Paul was complimenting the Corinthian Christians for passively letting themselves be used and led astray. He was being ironic. Then he describes his many persecutions (a lot of "cheek- slapping" there!)

How do we resolve the apparent contradiction?

Diane

Have we been trying to drive down two lanes at once? In other words I’m beginning to suspect that we are trying to merge two different principles intended for two different applications.

Jesus’ non-resistance teachings are set in the middle of his Sermon on the Mount, along with other such radical teachings – like anger = murder, looking lustfully = adultery, divorce = adultery, swearing oaths comes from the evil one, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, pray in the closet, deal drastically with sin (cut off the part). etc.

Surely Jesus was not suggesting these as civil laws for a nation. That would be ludicrous. He was illustrating pure holiness – the Christ-lie character. I think our legal thinking-bent has difficulty knowing what to do with these teachings. We certainly can’t enforce them, even in ourselves. In a sense they are “beyond reality”.

So are Jesus teachings on non-resistance – in a sense.

Diane

Of course this is about protecting the defenceless, not about self-defence

Agreed, using force in self-defense has unique facets to consider, which are different then using force in law enforment or in defense of the state. The apparent contradiction might be resolved by untangling the personal arena from the civic and state arenas of conflict. In the end we might decide on some uniform conclusions regarding these different arenas, but can we assume they are treated uniformly in scripture?

The scriptures may encourage me to turn the other cheek when I am struck but might not encourage a nearby policeman who saw the striking to also turn away.

Edit: Someone comment please...Knowing a policeman or soldier is responsible for bearing the sword, and therefore not free to turn away from violence, is it a fair question to ask if the Christian should turn away from being a policeman or a soldier? Also, is it one matter to become a Christian while in the service of the military and another matter to be a Christian seeking to serve in the military? Just trying to understand. Perhaps there is room in this discussion for practical examples of "non-resistance."

I do not have much time but will try to clarify a concept I introduced in my last post.

The principles of Biblical nonresistance encompanses all of life. Most people right away think of serving in the military and while that is a big issue, it also impacts us right where I live and how I react to annoyances I encounter everyday.

It has been told of how the government has sent spies to check out the Mennonite youth to see whether they are living like they profess to be: they register as COs, but do their lives measure up? Now would it not be odd if the USA government sees the connection between lifestyles and the nonresistant position in regards to military service but the average Christian has a problem with it?

ginnyrose

I see what you are saying Ginnyrose; non-violence is only one possible outward expression of the inward peace and reconciliation a Christian has in Christ. Other expressions of this peace are: being gentle when provoked, charitable when being wronged, or generous when being cheated. In essence you are talking about the fruit of the Spirit, the nature and character of Jesus being manifest in the way we live our lives.

If we say we object to war, but still engage in worldly strife, conflict, and competition for resources and reputation, we may not be as non-resistant as we think.

I think your point helps differentiate humanisitic or hedonistic pacifism from the true selfless fruit of the Spirit. We've all seen how anti-war rhetoric can be "preached" from atop an angry judgemental self-righteous perch at college campuses, political rallies, talk shows, and even some church pulpits. In contrast are the Christians whose peace is not in their idealogical or political rhetoric, but in their hearts through the person of Jesus Christ...and the entire sphere of their lives is touched by this peace which surpasses all comprehension.

So, "peace" is not our focus, but instead abiding in Christ Jesus. Yet this abiding in Christ will indeed produce a peaceful nature For He Himself is our peace.

Thanks Ginny. Sorry I missed the essence of your point earlier.

MC

Ginnyrose said:

The principles of Biblical nonresistance encompasses all of life.

Exactly!

There is a great temptation to extract a few verses and stare at them under the microscope till we become cross-eyed. And then we can’t see the bigger picture.

Consider this scripture:

“If I surrender my body to the flames,
but have not love, I gain nothing.” 1 Cor. 13:3

In other words, non-resistance, in itself means nothing. Likewise, there is no virtue in following any laws in themselves – that is, if we have stopped short of the bigger idea:

“Do onto others what you would have them do to you
for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

We have not been called to blindly march to specific laws. In fact in trying to do that we fall short of the mark. (the def’n of sin)

Here’s another piece of the bigger picture:

“Seek ye first the kingdom of God,
and all these things will be give to you.” Matt. 6:33

What things? ALL our survival needs! If we can’t grasp that truth, then we certainly will never be able to maintain Jesus ethical code of non-resistance – in any area of life. To the extent that we can’t trust God to provide and protect, we will take matters into our own hands. I believe that THAT is the issue Jesus (and other writers) kept on addressing. Really it is about faith.

Might I suggest that a discussion about non-resistance would best move forward by focusing on our Lord – and what he does for us, what it means to be one of his children. Then the rest will fall into place, will it not – including the manner in which we respond to threats to our well-being or the well-being of others.

Ginnyrose is moving us forward:

For He Himself is our peace.

Is he? There’s no better way to find out than through tests that threaten our security. (And I'm not referring only to physical needs)

Diane

For He Himself is our peace...

Is he?

Of course He is! The reality of who Christ is doens't depend on our feelings or even expression of this fact. He isn't peace only for the mature Christians...but also the immature that need him.

Let me take just a moment to state the obvious: we must resist making this particular message yet another bondage. Yes "peace", can be a bondage; one we can even put ourselves into. "I will only have Christ as my peace when I (fill in the blank...)Perhaps we have been shown some new aspect of Christ and instead of being gracious to others, we are quick to say "The man who does these things will live by them."

I want to point this out because if we make non-resistance a law then where does this type of peace really come from? It is not enough to be intellectually pursuaded by the Minnonites, or to conform outwardly do ideals.

This is why we must begin with "Jesus is our peace" even for those who do not fully understand the implication of this. Otherwise we who desire to see peace in our brothers and sisters actually do more to create unrest by pushing Jesus one step further away from where they are at...making Him just always out of reach. This was my point about assuming that Christians in the miliatry do not know the peace of Jesus. Non-resisters may not appreciate it but Jesus is the peace of our military brothers and sisters too! But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'(that is, to bring Christ down)"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I bring up Romans 10, because "peace" is not an expression of non-violence as the heathen would understand it, but a reconciliation with man towards God...and of God towards man! This is why I say, of course Jesus is our peace. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

I know we know these things. (Especially Roadsign!) Just felt they needed to be said for the record in this thread. ;-)

True peace is the manifestation of grace. We must be careful not to turn our ideals, even our revelations, into bondage for one another.

By focusing on the outward expressions first, we can make bondages of all of God's inward gifts. For instance we say that revival can be purchased with a few more hours of prayer and debasement. This is vain and frustrating thinking. The simple but glorious truth is that, just like Jesus is our peace, so is He our revival. Any athletic hurdles we put in front on each other to run faster,jump higher, and do better prevents access to the medicine. As always, humble repentance will reveal more of Jesus in a single precious moment to us in a way that a lifetime of self-analysis, comparison with others, and exertion to do better can not. (This is why a Christless liberal peace message is an oxymoron.)

So let's be careful to state first what is eternal in Christ, even when we are taking measurements of our own lives. We are the caboose that follows after who He is...not the other way around. Unless we see Christ (and the power of His nature) given freely and generously even while we are still unworthy, we who desire peace in our troubled souls, will never find it.

Forgive my preaching to the choir dear saints. Blessings,

MC

Yes, nonresistance is a life dedicated to following the examples of Jesus and the disciples. Jesus said:

Luke 9:23-24
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. [24] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

There is only one way to follow Christ, and that is to have faith in Him and in His accomplished works, only then will we know and trust Him for everything.

Paul explains it very well in:

Philip. 3:7-4:9
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. [8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. [12] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. [13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, [14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. [15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. [16] Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. [17] Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. [18] (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: [19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) [20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: [21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
[4:1] Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved. [2] I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord. [3] And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. [4] Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. [5] Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. [6] Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. [7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. [8] Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. [9] Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

John puts it like this:

1 John 4:17-18
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. [18] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

This is what we are to be in the world, “because as He is, so are we in this world.”

It all comes down to this:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

“Freely you have received, freely give”

In His Love

pastorfrin

The bottom line is that we are in the world but not of the world. Now how to we live so we do not become entangled in it?

Christians who have studied the WORD, have absorbed it into their utmost inner being have developed a real sense of what is righteousness and wickedness. In so doing a hatred of sin and its manifestations have been sharpened considerably which puts us at risk to take matters into our own hands in how we fight evil. This is why I believe God is stepping in and saying it is His job to use force against evil, not yours (the Christians). Romans 13:4: "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." Christians sense of justice can arise from an anger and coupled with the matter at hand, can be so destructive. A case in point are the abortion clinic bombers.

We are also told we are strangers and pilgrims in our journey on this earth. As such we have no rights (ouch!) in an alien land. Since this is the case, God is asking his people to stand back and let another carry out the punishment of evil, even if it is on a national scale. Peace between unregenerate peoples will never occur apart of the cross. You can have warring people refrain from killing each other, but it will only be temporary. The biggest contributor to war between nations is the lust for power and can a nation wronged not fight back to protect its soverignity? Logical questions, but the answer to these honest questions can best be answered by reading the OT prophets dealing with this issue and then exercise faith that God is in control and we must get out of the way and allow him to use it. In the meantime the believers responcibility is to evangelize and encourage the saints.

Now I must get to work...tomato plants need some TLC.:-(

Blesings,
ginnyrose

“For he is God's servant to do you good.
But if you do wrong (MAYBE LIKE REBEL AGAINST YOUR RULER),
be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing.
He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.”
Rom. 13:4

When Paul wrote these words do you think that he was thinking of the Jews, knowing just how passionately they craved a political messiah and a political kingdom? I suspect so, and I also believe that it was just a matter of time before their desires finally came to fruition. They took matters into their own hands and revolted against Rome. They had failed to heed Paul’s warnings.

The Jews never saw it God's way. Though Caesar may have a brutal dictator, the relative civil peace they were experiencing (Pax Romana ) along with good roads, etc made an ideal setting for the spread of the gospel. However, sovereignty was all the Jewish leaders cared about.

That’s just the way I see it. I wonder how this principle would apply today, keeping in mind that there are all kinds of "swords" - that is, methods we can employ in order to advance or defend our own "kingdoms" - whatever that may be.

Ginnyrose, all the best for your tomato plants. May the good Lord send lots of sunshine and plenty rains - and keep away those pesty bugs, rodents, and deer (at least, from your tomato patch.)

Diane

No disagreement here...You had me at "let's talk about peace". ;-)

Now I wonder if we we could talk about what non-resisitance looks like in the modern world...including the cost to the holder of these beliefs. For instance my uncle is a CO...he has never waivered from these beliefs for 50 years now... for his first doctorate he wrote a paper reconciling the cleasing of the temple with pacifism. I can still remember from my childhood the sincere pain and sadness on his face when ever he would walk into a room and see me watching some violent television program or pretending to shoot a playmate. He was never angry or judgemental, but instead would patiently share his convitions peacefully yet with formible force from both old testament and new testament scriptures. To me he has always embodied non-resistance with honor and respect for all men who disagreed vehemently with him, always bearing up to criticism from friends, church people, and family members by a quiet fully resolved love for the Lord. But alas he is also a pastor and a seminary teacher and quite frankly most people can tolerate or even expect a "man of the cloth" to be capable of these beliefs.

Also we have seen several sisters here express non-resistance beliefs...but admittedly women also recieve some social clemency with this issue. Yes wars are more cross gender then ever...but by and large they are still fought by men...especially young men.

So it is the young Christian laymen in America with non-resistent beliefs who must be willing to suffer the most for these convictions. He faces the highest personal cost for say, resisting a draft. Does anyone here persoally know of someone who went to jail for these beliefs in previous wars? (I've read a few book testimonies...) Is it okay to serve the military in a non-combatant role or does that also violate the message of peace?

Let's talk turkey!

MC

MC,

Interesting testimony, MC.

I do not have the names in from of me...and I can no longer ask Dad to help me with this....

During WW1 there was one whose testimony I heard while in Bible School.....He was badly treated because he was a CO: He was from MI, forced into the military, refused to wear the uniform, was thrown into the sewer, etc. Mistreated.

During WW1 a man noted for his position on war refused to buy war bonds. One Sunday morning he went out to get his car from the barn to take his family to church. What he saw in the barn was someone had not long before crept in and painted his new car yellow. He got some rags and hastily wiped the paint from it. Forgot the rest of the story...

Another one my uncle told me. The local board, who sold war bonds, knew the Amish community will not support the war effort so they asked for a meeting with the local Amish leaders. They met and told the board they wanted to discuss this matter and will meet with them later. At the next meeting these Amish leaders made a proposal which they gladly accpted. Instead of them -the Amish - buying war bonds they are wanting to donate money to help build a wing to the local hospital. IMHO, this facility benefited more people then the purchase of war bonds!

But you asked for stories for males who were jailed in the USA....I know of one, my DH's cousin but the situation there would not be a fair one, IMHO, to consider. The poor guy was ignorant of the procedures that would have helped him and so he spent some time in the slammmer.

It is getting harder to find people who knew these stories first hand because they are dying off. You see during WW2 the USA government provided exemptions to COs who then served in camps, providing humantarian service and now even these men are old and dying off. So what happened earlier can mostly be found in books, or family memoirs or oral histories. MC, you live in OH, you should check out some old person among the Mennonites. Actually, I could give you the name of a historian you may find extremely interesting: he is Walter Beachy, Plain City, OH. When you speak with him, make sure you allow yourself and him plenty of time. You will have one interesting time. And you better do it soon because he is not getting any younger. :-( (I wil send you his email address in a PM.)

Now I wil get out of the way and let the males speak...

ginnyrose

Thanks much Ginny for the info. Inspite of he way I presented it, I should clarify I wasn't interested in just stories of men going to jail for these beliefs...I was mainly looking for specific examples in how this might be lived out.

MC

MC

Good questions, which have many answers.

When I was a young pastor I naively thought everyone would agree with the teaching of nonresistance.:-? I had just finished the first year as pastor of a home missions work and thought it would be a good time to begin a series on nonresistance. After the first message several men approached and informed me that they would be taking their families and leaving. We will not attend a church that teaches our children to be cowards, and as far as we are concerned that is what we think of you, they said. There was no room for scripture or reasoning that would change their minds, they simply left.
I had experienced this as a young Christian but as a pastor I was taken totally by surprise.
Needless to say I changed the way I introduced nonresistance from that point on. Quite amazing what word studies can do when done with much prayer and the Holy Spirit opening our hearts to the scriptures. I have had many say during a study pastor that means we are not to return evil for any reason, this is without me sharing how I feel on the matter; they simply see it for them selves in the Word.

How does a young person approach the issue of nonresistance today?

First they must really have the issue settled in their heart; they must know why they believe in nonresistance backed with scripture. Secondly they should belong to a church that has a doctrinal statement on nonresistance in their constitution, which would only be necessary in times when the draft would be in effect.

Does this apply to serving in the military in a non-combatant role?

Yes, the reason being when you enter the military you all take the same oath, thus you would be obligated to uphold and defend which would be contrary to the teaching of nonresistance.

Did you know of anyone who went to prison for their stand on nonresistance?

Yes several, while I was in and after I was out of the service. Most because they could not document that this was truly what they believed. It is very difficult to be deferred as a CO without proper documentation. Affiliation with a church which has this in their constitution is almost mandatory.

I feel very soon there will be no concessions made for COs and the religious system I am afraid will have much to do with this coming about. Many churches are being used as venues for recruitment of our young men and women, so if a draft was to be instituted it would only be logical for all to be required to serve, in the name of the ….. or to face incarceration or worse. Things can change very rapidly, if one doubts this just look at history. These are only personal observations not a prophecy.

Hope this gets us started down the road to future discussions on this issue. You know,
talking turkey! ;-)

In His Love

pastorfrin

Since we seem to be out of 'turkey' how about scripture?

Rev. 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Seems those fighting for the kingdoms of the world have jumped the gun a little.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

It would seem Jesus meant exactly what He said.

Not of this world, thus my servants do not fight,
carnally that is.

In His Love

pastorfrin

Here's another interesting verse:

Re 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

This says two things to me.

1.
There almost seems to be a "curse" (for lack of a better word) when someone uses the sword.

2.
We're to have patience and faith, instead of standing up for our lives or rights and killing.

So many times we get ahead of God and step out in the flesh when maybe God would have done something great for us. I know I've done this in differant areas of my life.

Jordan

Since we seem to be out of 'turkey'

I have some more turkey, but I'm taking a little time to cook it up before dishing it out. ;-) Rest assured, this topic is not just a passing curiosity to me brother!

Blessings,

MC

Here's another interesting verse:

Re 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Jordan,
Interesting indeed!
We are told in Romans 14:23b for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

"Here is the patience and the faith of the saints"

I find we jump ahead of the Lord for two main reasons, lack of patience and fear. Both these are caused by lack of faith. Thus we fall into sin, the solution we find in:
Philip. 4:6-7
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. [7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Why don’t we simply do this? Fear, where there is fear peace cannot dwell.

1 John 4:7-21
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. [8] He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. [9] In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. [10] Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. [11] Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. [12] No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. [13] Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. [14] And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. [15] Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. [16] And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. [17] Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. [18] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. [19] We love him, because he first loved us. [20] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? [21] And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Fear causes torment and torment leads us to act in our own strength, the solution then is perfect love. Perfect love will cast out all fear and when there is no fear there is peace, the peace of God which passeth all understanding, shall keep our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus, and who is Christ Jesus? Perfect Love, which gives us perfect peace, the peace that passeth all understanding.
So we must:
Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. [6] In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

In His Love

pastorfrin

MC,

Take your time brother, slow cooked turkey is always better, keeps the flavor in the meat. ;-)

In His Love

pastorfrin

Pastorfrin...

Forgive me if you have already answered this, but do you feel there can be any sort of thing as a "good soldier" in the United States?

I personally still believe that there is a place for non-resistance, as there is also a place for resistance. If someone walked into my school and opened fire (as happened at Virginia Tech and the Amish schoolhouse), I would do my best to stop the intruder. The same is true of my home. If someone walked in and attacked my wife or future children, I would do my best to stop him. Additionally, I feel that there are some things worth fighting for. Remember, "non-violent" resistance can be just as damaging as a weapon. An idle word or display of contempt can destroy the popularity of a politician more effectively than any bullet.

I wrote my Graduate Thesis on the decisions of the Carter Administration during the Iran Hostage Crisis. President Carter received quite a bit of criticism during the period -- not from the Iranians or the Ayatollah, but from the members of his own party. As a result, he easily lost the 1980 Presidential election. A few years ago, Carter was one of the few individuals campaigning against the war in Iraq. He argued that this would not be a "just" war (versus a "just" war in World War II or even the first Gulf War). However, Carter also considered the Six Day War as an example of unjust warfare.

At what point should an individual (or a nation) take a pacifist or "nonviolent" stand? Is there such a thing as a "just" war? Can a "good soldier" still exist in the United States?

Thanks for your input. Please forgive me if I sound somewhat contentious. This is not my intention. Rather, I would like to learn more about your beliefs.

:-)

MC,

Take your time brother, slow cooked turkey is always better, keeps the flavor in the meat.

That's what I've found as well. It takes a little longer but it's better then Bologna. ;-)

Blessings,

MC

take your time brother, slow cooked turkey is always better, keeps the flavor in the meat

I can wait…….. especially when I know that the meal will be scrumptious.

I wonder if this is the place to address the cover page words on McLean’s magazine:

“250,000 are already dead. Now the genocide is raging beyond Darfur. Millions are in danger. The West won’t intervene. Our leaders say there’s nothing we can do. LOOK AWAY”

If our Christian duty is to help the oppressed, then is THIS not a place to use our God-given powers and resources? Surely the West can do something!!! - without victimizing yet more people. ... Surely!

Diane

Quote:

“Forgive me if you have already answered this, but do you feel there can be any sort of thing as a "good soldier" in the United States?”
-------------------------------------------------

Ccchhhrrriiisss,
I do not see your question as contentious at all, but it must be answered by each individual believer
according to how they perceive the teachings of Jesus Christ, after all he is our example to follow.

John 13:15-17
For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. [16] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. [17] If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

In light of His teaching and the example of His life and also that of His disciples, we must ask the question;

Can I be a soldier and obey these commandments from the Lord?

Matthew 5:38-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Rev. 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

These are some of our Lord’s teachings and there are many who will make arguments that the Lord did not mean what He said. So let us ask this question, did He mean what He gave us as an example from His own actions, the example that we are told to follow? The example that every one of His disciples followed, even Paul?

1 Peter 2:21-23
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

1 Cor. 4:12
And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

Could I be a good soldier? No, not ever again here on earth for any earthly kingdom.

2 Tim. 2:1-4
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. [2] And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. [3] Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. [4] No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

A soldier of the cross yes, but only with Jesus as my example to follow.
Remember His words,

John 5:19-23
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. [20] For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. [21] For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. [22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: [23] That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

If we would only seek His will and not our own how peaceful our lives would be, even if we were called to die for Him. Oh, that’s right, we are.

Luke 9:23-24
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. [24] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

In His Love

pastorfrin

Quote:

"I wonder if this is the place to address the cover page words on McLean’s magazine:

“250,000 are already dead. Now the genocide is raging beyond Darfur. Millions are in danger. The West won’t intervene. Our leaders say there’s nothing we can do. LOOK AWAY”

If our Christian duty is to help the oppressed, then is THIS not a place to use our God-given powers and resources? Surely the West can do something!!! - without victimizing yet more people. ... Surely!

Diane"
-------------------------------------------------

Yes sister the West could and should do something, but doing it without victimizing yet more people is the problem. If the West could step in with the same integrity as Samuel, then they would be a blessing for these oppressed people.

1 Samuel 12:3-4
Behold, here I am: witness against me before the Lord, and before his anointed: whose ox have I taken? or whose ass have I taken? or whom have I defrauded? whom have I oppressed? or of whose hand have I received any bribe to blind mine eyes therewith? and I will restore it you. [4] And they said, Thou hast not defrauded us, nor oppressed us, neither hast thou taken ought of any man's hand.

Instead of the integrity of Samuel there would need to be a large sum of money to be made and there is not, thus the powers that be are not interested.

The Lord is faithful and He will deliver and woe unto those who have turned there back on the oppressed in search of riches.

Psalm 103:6
The Lord executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed.

There is something we can all do who love the Lord:

Isaiah 58:6-14
Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? [7] Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
[8] Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rereward. [9] Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; [10] And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: [11] And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. [12] And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

We can do this and we should if we truly love the Lord.

In His Love

pastorfrin

Most people that I talk to in the biblical non-violence camp want to keep church and state completely separate. Usually they show how the closer the two are together, the more violent and like the world the church is.

Hi K_DAY,

Here is an article on:

The Christian's Relation to the Nation
by Ralph Shank
Tract 31E97
published by Rod and Staff Publishers, Inc.

"Much confusion surrounds the Christian's relationship to the nation. The lines that God has established which separate these two organizations into their distinct and specific areas of service have become foggy. In many cases, religious organizations have pursued a course of trying to Christianize the government. This work is an attempt to present clear Bible teaching on the subject.

The state is an institution by divine appointment. Paul says, "The powers that be are ordained of God" (Romans 13:1). To Abraham, God said, "I will make of thee a great nation." God chose a special nation as the instrument through which our Lord came into the world.

From the early part of Genesis to the latter part of Revelation, the Bible speaks of the nations. There are hundreds of references to nations, kingdoms, kings, rulers, governors, and so on, in the Bible. God's interest in the nations is seen in His declaration that He will "break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms" and that His kingdom will then fill "the whole earth" (Daniel 2:34, 44; Revelation 11:15).

When one rightly divides the Word, it becomes very clear that the relationship and duty of God's people to the state under the Old Testament was vastly different from that of the Christian under the New Testament. God is "the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever," but this does not say that He cannot use different methods under different conditions. I may remain the same in character through the years, and the fact that I begin to use a washcloth where I once used a comb only means that the condition has changed and not the character.

Under the former covenant Israel was both the church and the state in one organization. Thus Samuel was a prophet of the Lord (1 Samuel 3:20) and also a judge who judged Israel all the days of his life (1 Samuel 7:15). Elisha was anointed to take Elijah's place as a prophet and to be an officer to slay certain wicked people (1 Kings 19:16, 17). In those days it was required by God that His people participate faithfully in the national affairs of the state of Israel (Nehemiah 2:17, 18).

New Testament Relation

Under the New Testament God's plan is for His people to go into all the world with the message of salvation through Christ the Prince of peace, who left us an example, "that ye should follow in his steps; Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not" (1 Peter 2:21-23). Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight" (John 18:36). "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12).

It is noteworthy that the Apostle Paul, when referring to the church in Romans 12, uses the terms "ye" and "we" but when speaking of the state in Romans 13 he always refers to them as "they" and "he" (Romans 13:1-7). Not only are civil authorities referred to in the third person but the ones who resist them are likewise, showing that such action does not belong to "us" (Romans 13:2).

Responsibility to Government

There are some who argue that we are not obligated to obey the law today because of the corruption in our government. "Paul" they say, "lived and wrote under a benign government." This argument is indeed strange, since we are enjoying religious liberty now, and most of the apostles died a martyr's death at the hands of the state.

One duty, therefore, of the Christian is submission and obedience. The Christian and the anarchist such as Jehovah's Witness, (falsely so called) have nothing in common. Their request for exemption from military service is because they are opposed to the government. Our refusal to bear arms is because of our relationship with and our loyalty to the One who suffered for us.

To disobey the civil authority's laws when they do not conflict with the higher authority of God (Acts 4:19; 5:29) is to bring upon us both the punishment of the state (Romans 13:4) and the damnation of God (Romans 13:2). Paul emphasized this again in Titus 3:1 when he said that we should be subject to and obey the state and that we should "speak evil of no man." It is interesting how those who know little about politics are free to denounce the chief executive and other statesmen.

The Christian also obediently pays his taxes (Romans 13:6, 7; Luke 20:25). One pacifist used his "fist" against the government by calling upon Christians to withhold some of their taxes (war taxes) by saying that when Christ said, we are to "render . . . unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's," He did not say how much.

May we remember that Christ did tell us how much to pay to the state when He said that we should render that which bears his image. Therefore, when the nation asks for it, we give it to them and its never our responsibility to tell the government how it may use its money. If I owe a person some money, I have no right to refuse to pay it on the grounds that he will not use it properly. Nor can I refuse to pay it unless he promises to use it the way I say he should.

First Allegiance to Heavenly Government

While we find it our duty to pay to Caesar his required tax, it would be contrary to the principle of the Scripture to voluntarily or otherwise invest in war bonds, thereby becoming an investor in the war program. No nonresistant person would want to make a profit on the war.

Various portions in the Bible make it clear that we are pilgrims on this earth and that our citizenship is in heaven. As pilgrims we do not have citizenship responsibilities. As foreigners we can expect alien recognition of the state, which is different from citizenship privileges. Therefore, Paul says, "He is the minister of God to thee for good" (Romans 13:4a). He is also "for the praise of them that do well" (1 Peter 2:14b).

Benefits From the Government

Certainly God has not ordained the state for the benefit of the ungodly only, but, as these Scriptures show, it is ordained for us as well.

Many are the benefits we enjoy because of the powers that be. We travel far and wide with ease on state roads and national highways. In case of emergency, a state trooper may escort us speedily through heavy traffic to a hospital. The U.S. Postal Service is enjoyed by all.

We are happy to live in a country where riots, robberies, and plundering are held in check by the one who "beareth not the sword in vain." Court houses keep records of our ownership of property. All of these privileges and many more an alien may enjoy.

We believe that as strangers it is not wrong to use these provisions which God has made for us. Paul appealed to the law when he was on trial (Acts 25:11) and enjoyed the protection of the authorities (Acts 23:15-24). According to the New Testament teaching and example, we then have the right to certain benefits from the state.

Boundaries of Separation

Some people seem to be confused on this point and see no difference between an appeal to the government for Christian consideration and an appeal to get them to run the affairs of the state on the basis of Christian principles. God never asked the government to try to operate without the sword. Neither has He commissioned the church to advise the state. On various occasions the apostles witnessed to statesmen of their need of salvation but never did they tell them how to run the state.

We would certainly not appreciate a delegation from Capitol Hill at our meetings trying to instruct the church how to choose church leaders, how to observe communion, or administer baptism, and so on. We would likely say as Nehemiah said to Sanballat the Horonite, "Ye have no portion, nor right, nor memorial" in the church (Nehemiah 2:20).

Why then should we leave our high and holy calling and go to the state to tell them how to operate. While statesmen have expressed their appreciation for the prayers of God's people, they have expressed their disgust at churchmen trying to meddle into their affairs.

The folly of Christians trying to advise the nations was glaringly brought to our attention a few years ago when the president of a Mennonite college wrote to Mr. Nixon, telling him in essence that he could have an army but that it should not be too large.

God has clearly given the sword to the state, and it is not for us to tell him how or when, or whether or not, he may use it.

"Let Christian people mind their own business by teaching the doctrine of Nonresistance for Christians and stop meddling with the policies of nations. It does belong to us as Christians to petition governments to give standing room for our conscience in their militaristic policies but not to become political advisers" - George R. Brunk, Sr. (Sword and Trumpet Editorials, October 1929, p. 6).

Witnessing to the Nation

The muddle in the minds of many in this area seems to come from a feeling that they should witness to the state. One Mennonite writer thinks that it is our duty to go to the president of our nation when he is elected and tell him that war is sin. It seems rather strange that this one concern should be singled out.

Why, in the face of the moral breakdown in our nation, do they not send a delegation to government headquarters to try to get a bill introduced to have senators observe Feet Washing, or any other Bible doctrine? We have no more right to seek to saddle one part of the Gospel on unregenerated men than any other part.

Here again the Bible gives a clear directive. Paul witnessed to the statesmen in the same manner in which he witnessed to people of lesser note. Felix and Drusilla heard Paul "concerning the faith in Christ" (Acts 24:24). Is it not a very Pharisaical approach to try to get sinners to practice Christian principles rather than to experience the New Birth? What did Christ say about such? (See Matthew 23:15).

Because the burden of "witnessing to the state" seems to have been almost totally in the area of disarmament, one wonders whether a great deal of communistic propaganda has not seeped in where it ought not to have.

Since it is clear that the church and state are two different organizations, it should be clear to all that we have no part in holding office or putting men in office. While many good fundamentalists (so called) and some poor Mennonites believe that church and state are two separate organizations, yet they believe that it is a Christian's duty to try to elect the best man for political office.

Since our citizenship is in heaven, as Philippians 3:20 (margin) says, we cannot vote. No person without citizenship status may rightly vote or hold office. Would it be reasonable to have part in placing a man into an office that places a sword in his hand and then refuse to assist him in the use of that sword? A person in office certainly has the right to expect the ones who put him into office to assist him in executing that office.

The Christian's attitude toward politics need not be one of unconcern or disinterest. (At the same time we would caution against becoming overly anxious or concerned about it.) Since we are to pray for "kings and for all that are in authority" (1 Timothy 2:1, 2), we believe we should have some interest in the affairs of the nation.

Do we believe in the power of prayer? Then we can certainly do more on our knees than at the polls. Two devoted children of God agreeing to pray earnestly can do much to move the mind of God to set up whom He will to the blessing of both the church and the nation (Matthew 18:19).

Here lies our power and calling. Let us not forget our civil leaders after the election. Here is a Biblical prayer request. When did you last pray for this request?

The Christian who properly fulfills his role is the most valuable subject the state has. Let us take our place as submissive, obedient, praying, taxpaying aliens. In this way we will be the preserving salt as God has intended. When we are faithful in this manner, then our witness will be effective as we reason with statesmen of "righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come" (Acts 24:25)."

_________________________________________________

Hope this answers some questions and leads us into futher discussion on the many aspects of Biblical Nonresistance.

In His Love

pastorfrin

K_Day wrote:

As the 2008 election is coming up I have a real knot in my stomach. The thought of Hilary or Obama in office, both of which "strongly oppose" the ban on partial birth abortion makes me just want to vote against them. Still, I don't think there is a single candidate I would want to have my full support.

Kay, you are not the only one with this dilemma. How often do we buy into the rhetoric "that if you vote for me, I will solve whatever is ailing this community/nation/world?" Has it been fixed? If it has why does the plea continue? It just seems to get worse. Will quit, do not want to get into politics....

Yes, I have been giving this issue much more serious thought then I have in years...and wonder what the LORD is going to show me...

ginnyrose

K_DAY said:
Quote:
As the 2008 election is coming up I have a real knot in my stomach. The thought of Hilary or Obama in office, both of which "strongly oppose" the ban on partial birth abortion makes me just want to vote against them. Still, I don't think there is a single candidate I would want to have my full support."
_________________________________________________

How About this:

Quote: "The Christian's attitude toward politics need not be one of unconcern or disinterest. (At the same time we would caution against becoming overly anxious or concerned about it.) Since we are to pray for "kings and for all that are in authority" (1 Timothy 2:1, 2), we believe we should have some interest in the affairs of the nation.

Do we believe in the power of prayer? Then we can certainly do more on our knees than at the polls. Two devoted children of God agreeing to pray earnestly can do much to move the mind of God to set up whom He will to the blessing of both the church and the nation (Matthew 18:19).

Here lies our power and calling. Let us not forget our civil leaders after the election. Here is a Biblical prayer request. When did you last pray for this request?"
_________________________________________________

If the Lord puts men up and takes men down and His word says He does:

“Since the beginning, God has recognized a social order and has established government leaders. Daniel 4:17 declares that "the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men." Romans 13:1 echoes, "the powers that be are ordained of God."

Then would not our concern over who rules be covered in prayer?

Jesus says pray like this:

Matthew 6:9-13
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. [11] Give us this day our daily bread. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

If we as Christians all pray together ‘Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’ then why would we then worry about who He places in positions of leadership; We need to pray and then receive:

Philip. 4:6-7
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. [7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Brothers and Sisters, this is the peace we need to receive, yes it passeth all understanding of the natural man, but we have not been called to be natural but to receive His peace,
Yes the peace which passeth all understanding.
This peace only comes through prayer, so let us pray and believe The Lord; I would say He knows exactly what He is doing.

In His Love

Pastorfrin

Wow! I was just going to ask about this. Thanks for asking K-Day and thanks for the verses and articles Pastorfrin they've been really helpful. :-D

Jordan

If we could enjoy a coffee with Jesus and Paul at a corner café right now, and if we’d raise this question: “Hey, can we talk peace?”, I’m convinced that both of them would steer the conversation into something that closely resembles scripture. So here’s what I’ve come up with:

The Greek word for peace, eirene occurs 92 times in the NT, and all but once is rendered, “peace”. We see this word “peace” in every NT book except 1 John.

Obviously God likes to talk peace, too!

I arranged all the verses that contain the word “peace” according to its usage – most interesting!

We don’t find very much in the NT about war vs peace, other than in the context of judgment. We are called to live peaceably among nonchristians: “Blessed are the peacemakers”. and “ … God has called us to live in peace.” 1 Cor 7:15 It seems clear that we were never made to handle perpetual tension, divisiveness and conflict. God didn’t equip us with shells like turtles. We are called to a life of peace. The lack of peace and peacemaking in our lives is contrary to his calling. (Experience should teach us that it destroys us)

According to Jesus and Paul it is critically important that we maintain unity in order to preserve this organism called the Body. In fact, the purpose of godly submission and tenderness towards subordinates helps promote interrelational peace and this protects the Body.

Jesus came to bring peace by restoring us to God through salvation. But he also promised to bring judgment (the withdrawal of peace). Jesus made it clear that he did NOT come to bring the kind of peace humans crave, and that the absence of peace is a product of sin and judgment.

Our only source of peace is Christ – through knowledge of him, made possible through our union with him. The peace of God is the saint’s privilege. It is a divine quality: ”For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. “ 1 Cor 14:33

So really it’s not about war vs peace, but about divine judgment and sin vs peace. Of course that applies not only on an international scale, but even in our smallest units: marriage and family.

The list of verses is too long for a post, so I put them here: [url=http://www.thewayback.net/articles/peacewordstudy.htm]Peace Word Study[/url] I hope that some can offer more observations.

.....So, how might a conversation about peace go with Jesus and Paul?

Diane

Sister Diane,
Very interesting and the work you put into researching peace, thank you.

You said:

So really it’s not about war vs peace, but about divine judgment and sin vs peace. Of course that applies not only on an international scale, but even in our smallest units: marriage and family.

This seems to lead us back to Matt.6 and Jesus teaching on prayer:
Matthew 6:9-13
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. [11] Give us this day our daily bread. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

This seems to tie in with,

You said:

.....So, how might a conversation about peace go with Jesus and Paul?

I guess it would go something like this:

Acts 9:3-6
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: [4] And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [5] And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. [6] And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Until we are willing to stop kicking against the pricks and ask the question, Lord what would thou have me to do, we will never have peace.
The only way we will ever do this is to come to the place of prayer where we can truly say;
Father, thy will be done in me no matter what.
Maybe that is what true peace entails.
Just a thought.

In His Love

pastorfrin

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Before Jesus ascended into heaven He commanded His disciples to:

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Paul states in Romans 12 a recurring theme that Jesus taught in the Sermon On the Mount:
Romans 12:17-21
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. [18] If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. [19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

The theme ‘live peaceably with all men’ is expounded upon in The Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge with these verses:
Rom 12:18 -
Rom_14:17, Rom_14:19; 2Sa_20:19; Psa_34:14, Psa_120:5-7; Pro_12:20; Mat_5:5, Mat_5:9; Mar_9:50; 1Co_7:15; 2Co_13:11; Gal_5:22; Eph_4:3; Col_3:14, Col_3:15; 1Th_5:13; 2Ti_2:22; Heb_12:14; Jam_3:16-18; 1Pe_3:11
Seems Paul was not the only one to carry on the teachings of our Lord.

“ If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.”

Who is it that abides in you or how much of Jesus
abides in you?

In His Love
pastorfrin

Compton wrote:
I wanted to say that I appreciated pastorfrin's contemplative attitude toward's this subject.

Brethren I feel that we American Christians are at a unique crossroads. There comes a point when 'defending the innocent' slides into defending a way of life...and eventually this may degenerates into a sense of pride that we must live better then other nations even if others must die for this entitlement. I'm not saying where on this slide we are but only that we might not always be able to be the strong that protect others...indeed we may need protection someday. (I wonder if some of those whom America has protected will remember America in darker times.)

Wars have both political and violent elements...two worldy elements that the Church has put increasing hope in to ease their fears of declining...and two elements which will bring tremendous strain on the proclamation of the Church. For my own part I have become wary of political activism, or even political enthusiasm, for the Christian. In the earliest years of the faith the church fathers would have apologetic exchanges with public officals but they themselves would refrain from seeking insider participation...instead being an outside proclamation speaking boldy the light of God's moral law into civil affairs. Some have intended to do this in this country...but many have far exceeded those boundaries.

Contrary to Walter Kronkite's crusade this is not a problem just for the conservative right but also for the left. For instance, Jim Wallace, the leading liberal 'evangelical' in America gave the Democratic repsonse to President Bushes State of the Union adress, and Rick Warren invited Sentaor Obama to speak politically at his church. No more can the Liberal Christian rightfully criticize the conservative Christian of being too "Constantinized". They too ride the back of the beast.

And besides political entanglements that effect the Christian's position on war there is also the comfortableness we Christians show towards many displays of violence in our entertainment culture. This past week there was an Ultimate Fighting Championship event in my hometown...the larget ticket gate ever sold at the Nationwide Arena.. At the end of the bloody knuckle tooth flying event the bruised face-swollen 'champion' was handed the microphone where he triumphantly gave thanks to Jesus Christ 'who died for his sins' and to the American GI 'who dies for his freedom.' I believe this fella (a rather large fella at that!) was a sincere Christian, but such talk makes me think America has become the revival of Roman spirit...and our mainstream Christianity is endanger of becoming it's state paganism. I do not say that to be clever but out of sadness...that a people whose feel are shod with Gospel of peace run so easily to watch and even participate in displays brutality and inhumanity...if only in the liesure of our recreation.

Regarding the military, I am not worthy to critique the American soldier. These men and women, and their families have given pieces of themselves that I will never fully understand...I will not slight their sacrifice by becoming conveniently moralistic or philosophic about a war that has become unpopular. My questions are not directed at the United States of America, which must...as nations do...have a right to pursue security with acceptance of the consequences of her policy choices.

My questions are for the Christians in N. America. With all of the hub bub to be socially relevant, in song, dress, and behavior... we need to be reminded that the earliest Christians were highly sectarian from their 'host' societies. While governments must wield the sword, it is not the role of the church to cheer them on but to be a light...a city set on a hill that pricks the conscience of the worldy rulers. This contradisctinction is what defines the Christian from the politician and the soldier. Our battle is not to kill flesh and blood, but to defeat darkness with light. It is a risky paradox...and one that I am trying to understand. If we forsake this paradox of proclamation, how can the darkness have light? Indeed might our participation very well affirm that all men, even Christians, are ultimately bound to devilish principalities and powers?

I am reminded of Tertullian's public rebuff to the political powers that were violently persecuting the church. He pointed out that we resist your evil not by violence but by dying. This is why we are called God's sheep, because we are slaughtered.

Challenging...almost surreal words for sure. They are certainly beyond me right now...especially as a man who would be wiling to die in preserving the Earthly security for my family...but perhaps less willing to die to preserve their purity... this City set on a Hill. But as America becomes more and more manifestly divergent from the Kingdom of God I wonder how long it will be before I will have to finally let go of this world.

Blessings and grace saints,

MC

How much more divergent can it become and what if we never let go?
What kingdom do we belong to and who is our king?

In His Love
pastorfrin

Annie,

Thank You dear sister for your kind words, may you and all our brothers and sisters have a wonderful day In His Love.

pastorfrin

Pastorfrin wrote:

Until we are willing to stop kicking against the pricks and ask the question, Lord what would thou have me to do, we will never have peace.The only way we will ever do this is to come to the place of prayer where we can truly say;Father, thy will be done in me no matter what.Maybe that is what true peace entails.

Brother, Seems to me you hit the target with this statement: This is the heart of discipleship: God tells us what to do without us giving Him any argument or debate. And we joyfully obey. But before this can become a reality, we must be submissive to him. If we do not have a heart of submission, we are guilty of idoltry - that of using our own reasoning above God to determine what or how or if obedience is to be entered into.

Thanks, pastor!

ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:
Pastorfrin wrote:

Until we are willing to stop kicking against the pricks and ask the question, Lord what would thou have me to do, we will never have peace.The only way we will ever do this is to come to the place of prayer where we can truly say;Father, thy will be done in me no matter what.Maybe that is what true peace entails.

Brother, Seems to me you hit the target with this statement: This is the heart of discipleship: God tells us what to do without us giving Him any argument or debate. And we joyfully obey. But before this can become a reality, we must be submissive to him. If we do not have a heart of submission, we are guilty of idoltry - that of using our own reasoning above God to determine what or how or if obedience is to be entered into.

Thanks, pastor!

ginnyrose

Hi ginnyrose,
There is a story behind His Will in my life or should I say without His Will I would not have
a life.

Every since I left the service in 1967 I have suffered from bouts of past failure. If I had not done this or if I would have done that, why’s and why not’s. The past was literally devouring me. One day when I was battling with this The Lord spoke to me just as plain and sure as if He was physically there with me. He asked me this simple question; can you in any way change your past? I thought and then answered no. Then He said you are right, you cannot change the past, but you can let your past destroy your future. I have come that you may have life and that you may have it more abundantly. You must choose, your past or the life I give you.
So many today live in the past and when you are living in the past you are as good as dead. You are no good to yourself, your loved ones or the Lord. We live in the past because we have failed in the past and because we are afraid we will fail again we live in our failure which is the past. Now the past becomes the present which is where we now live in the past which takes away or assures our future will be failure.
It all comes down to this:
1 John 4:15-19
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. [16] And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. [17] Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. [18] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. [19] We love him, because he first loved us.

If you believe and receive the Son of God then the perfect love of God dwells in you. There is no fear in perfect love, thus we can pray from our hearts that have been filled with perfect love, THY WILL BE DONE in me and not fear what the outcome will be for “perfect love casteth out fear” no worry, no fear and no past because:

Philip. 4:6-7
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. [7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Thy Will Be Done should and will be our constant request if we have perfect love because HE is our PEACE and it is His Peace that will keep our hearts and minds.

Rest in His Will and you will find it is a Peaceful place to dwell.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

No past, no fear only peace and good cheer; In His Will.

The world does not understand but should'nt we?

In His Love
pastorfrin

Pastor wrote:

Every since I left the service in 1967 I have suffered from bouts of past failure. If I had not done this or if I would have done that, why’s and why not’s. The past was literally devouring me. One day when I was battling with this The Lord spoke to me just as plain and sure as if He was physically there with me. He asked me this simple question; can you in any way change your past? I thought and then answered no. Then He said you are right, you cannot change the past, but you can let your past destroy your future. I have come that you may have life and that you may have it more abundantly. You must choose, your past or the life I give you.

So true. Jesus said it this way:(Luk 9:62) "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back,is fit for the kingdom of God." If you unfamilar with farming, the meaning of this may be obsure. When you plow you want to go straight, so you look at an object in the distance and keep your eye trained on it and head straight for it, ensuring a straight line. If you look away from that object, you will plow a crocked furrow. This analogy is perfect - Oh dear...here I go evaluating Jeus words! - but what I mean is the illustration is so easy to understand. For me to look down or back - always away - can cause my furrow to go crocked. Stupid things I did or even revel in the accolades one has received can cause one to take your eyes off the LORD. Both can be detrimental to our relationship with the LORD.

Thanks for sharing, Pastor,
ginnyrose

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Quoting your verses above Pastor ....

[b]1 John 4:16-18 And we have known and believed the Love that God hath to us. GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in Love dwelleth in GOD, and GOD in him. Herein is our Love made Perfect, that we may have Boldness in the Day of Judgment: [u]because as He is, so are we in this world. There is No Fear in Love; but Perfect Love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made Perfect in Love.[/u][/b]

Thy Will Be Done should and will be our constant request if we have perfect love because HE is our PEACE and it is His Peace that will keep our hearts and minds.

No past,no fear, only peace and good cheer; In His Will.

The world does not understand but shouldn't we?

In His Love
pastorfrin

Just took snippets from an edifying post but I think it would help if we read the whole post.

In His Love.

Hi Annie,

Quote: “Just took snippets from an edifying post but I think it would help if we read the whole post.”

Hey Annie, I read the whole post! 8-)
Thank You Sister,

Love Ya
pastorfrin

PS I almost forgot to tell you, I tried it but it must not be trainable. :-x

ginnyrose wrote:
Pastor wrote:

Every since I left the service in 1967 I have suffered from bouts of past failure. If I had not done this or if I would have done that, why’s and why not’s. The past was literally devouring me. One day when I was battling with this The Lord spoke to me just as plain and sure as if He was physically there with me. He asked me this simple question; can you in any way change your past? I thought and then answered no. Then He said you are right, you cannot change the past, but you can let your past destroy your future. I have come that you may have life and that you may have it more abundantly. You must choose, your past or the life I give you.

So true. Jesus said it this way:(Luk 9:62) "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back,is fit for the kingdom of God." If you unfamilar with farming, the meaning of this may be obsure. When you plow you want to go straight, so you look at an object in the distance and keep your eye trained on it and head straight for it, ensuring a straight line. If you look away from that object, you will plow a crocked furrow. This analogy is perfect - Oh dear...here I go evaluating Jeus words! - but what I mean is the illustration is so easy to understand. For me to look down or back - always away - can cause my furrow to go crocked. Stupid things I did or even revel in the accolades one has received can cause one to take your eyes off the LORD. Both can be detrimental to our relationship with the LORD.

Thanks for sharing, Pastor,
ginnyrose

Hi ginnyrose,

Quote:
“So true. Jesus said it this way:(Luk 9:62) "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back,is fit for the kingdom of God." If you unfamilar with farming, the meaning of this may be obsure.”

Very familiar with farming sister, and a very good analogy, if we take our eyes from Him we wander from the straight and narrow path and then ‘oh how’ the trouble begins.
Speaking of plowing, I have that accomplished but I still have late sweet corn to get in, and now it will be; latter for sure.

I was just reading:
Matthew 26:51-54
And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. [52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. [53] Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? [54] But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Notice how Peter thought he could save Jesus by the sword. He never gave a thought to the fact that the man that was able to calm the sea and still the wind had more than enough resources to deliver them. Jesus quickly reminded Him and then added the most important part of all; “But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?”
In other words Peter how then will the 'WILL' of The Father be done.
The Lord is well able to deliver us out of all our troubles and if He chooses not to then we have the privilege of suffering for His Name sake. When we are in His will we can always be assured that we will be delivered even if it is from the grave.
Now to me; That Is Peace!

In His Love
pastorfrin

PS Was just thinking about the more than twelve legions of angels, they were available then and it sure seems they would be available now if the Lord decides we need them.
2 Cor. 10:4
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Trainable or Attainable ?

Ha ~ that's a first to see -> :-x come outta you.

Thanks for the surprize laugh - I needed it - whether you were laughing at the time or not. Ha !

Keep On !

and as we used to say in the 60's - "Keep the Peace baby." ha, well that 'is' what this thread's about.

Hey, us flower children back then proved unequivocally and obviously that "Peace &
Love" 'is' unattainable without Jesus .... we've come a long way baby proving that, 4 decades later what do we have on earth ?

Hi Annie,

Thanks for the surprize laugh - I needed it - whether you were laughing at the time or not. Ha !

I was falling out of my chair, but it is neither trainable or attainable it kept falling off the
scooter thats what the :-x is all about, I guess I will need to find another way to save money on gas or attain a trainable vehicle. :-P

Hey, us flower children back then proved unequivocally and obviously that "Peace & Love" 'is' unattainable without Jesus .... we've come a long way baby proving that, 4 decades later what do we have on earth ?

Amen Sister and how, I am very thankful He revealed to us 'His Peace'.

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Seek His Peace
John 14:27
"
The first impulse of “the natural man” is to seek peace by mending his external condition; to banish anxiety by increase of wealth; to guard against hostility by making himself too strong for it; to build up his life into a fortress of security and a palace of comfort, where he may softly lie, tho tempests beat and rain descends. The spirit of Christianity casts away at once this whole theory of peace … and proclaims it impossible even to make this kind of reconciliation between the soul and life wherein it acts.… Attempt to make all smooth and pleasant without, and you thereby create the most corroding of anxieties, and stimulate the most insatiable of appetites within. But let there be harmony within, let no clamors of self drown the voice which is entitled to authority there; let us set forth on the mission of duty, resolved to live for it alone, to close with every resistance that obstructs it, and march through every peril that awaits it; and in the consciousness of immortal power, the sense of immortal ill will vanish; and the peace of God will nigh extinguish the sufferings of the man." (J. Martineau)

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Pastor,

Why do you think Jesus told Peter to take a sword along before they left the upper room? Was it to teach him a lesson? What do you think? Mind expanding on this? And if you did elsewhere on this thread, I am sorry....I must have forgotten. (I have a lot on my mind and not all of it is pleasant..)

Blessings,
ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:
Pastor,

Why do you think Jesus told Peter to take a sword along before they left the upper room? Was it to teach him a lesson? What do you think? Mind expanding on this?

Hi ginnyrose,
I will try there is so much to cover here and what an example the Lord has given us in this subject with Peter.

In Luke 22:31-53 we see Jesus address Peter whom I think we all agree was the one the other disciples looked up to. Jesus tells him that Satan has desired to have him and tells him He has prayed that his faith does not fail. Jesus then confirms Peter as leader in telling him that after he is converted to strengthen the brethren. Peter makes his statement to the Lord of following Him anywhere and Jesus says no you won’t you will deny me three times by morning.

Jesus then turns His attention to the whole group and asked them: “When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.”
Jesus now makes His Point, things are about to change boys and you will be tempted to trust in your own things to get by.
So what does He do?

[36] Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. [37] For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. [38] And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Why would He tell them to do such things, when in Matt. He told them this?
Matthew 6:31-34
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? [32] (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. [33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. [34] Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Would it be to show them how useless all these things are, otherwise why would He say
Two swords are enough?

Now if we go to verse 49 the disciples ask Jesus a question: When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
Peter being the quick acting fellow that he was does not wait for an answer and swiftly
cuts off the ear of the servant of the high priest.

‘Now’ Jesus answers their question and shows them by example what His answer is.
[51] And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

If we now go to
Matt. 26:50-54 Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him. [51] And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. [52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. [53] Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? [54] But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

We see the answer Jesus gives to Peter as leader to the disciples.
[52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

So your question: Why do you think Jesus told Peter to take a sword along before they left the upper room? Was it to teach him a lesson?

It was to teach every follower of Jesus Christ to: 1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

That in the world we will: John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

He has overcome so: 2 Cor. 10:4
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

He is our sword: Deut. 33:29
Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the Lord, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

As I said in an earlier post:
Notice how Peter thought he could save Jesus by the sword. He never gave a thought to the fact that the man that was able to calm the sea and still the wind had more than enough resources to deliver them. Jesus quickly reminded Him and then added the most important part of all; “But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?”
In other words Peter how then will the 'WILL' of The Father be done.
The Lord is well able to deliver us out of all our troubles and if He chooses not to then we have the privilege of suffering for His Name sake. When we are in His will we can always be assured that we will be delivered even if it is from the grave.
Matt. 26:
[53] Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? [54] But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

So the answer would be yes, Peter was used as an example so he as the called leader of those who would carry on the work of the Lord would get it. Get what?

O people saved by the Lord, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency!

In His Love
pastorfrin

Pastor,

I appreciate your reply.

I was just thinking...what would it have been like to be Peter at this point in time: he took the sword as commanded by Jesus and he used it like most people think they should be, although he was sloppy in its use. Anyhow, he did injure a person: he cut off the ear. Then low and behold, Jesus takes the ear and puts it back on the man's head and heals him. Then he turns to Peter and tells him that "he that takes the sword shall perish by the sword." Now talk about a rebuke! and it was done in the presense of all of his enemies, of all people! Could have been a ego-buster, for sure. I wonder how annoyed Peter was at this moment in time? In any case, he must have taken the lesson to heart because he accepted the rebuke and went on to follow him after Pentecost with boldness and aggression.

My thoughts,

ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:
Pastor,

I appreciate your reply.

I was just thinking...what would it have been like to be Peter at this point in time: he took the sword as commanded by Jesus and he used it like most people think they should be, although he was sloppy in its use. Anyhow, he did injure a person: he cut off the ear. Then low and behold, Jesus takes the ear and puts it back on the man's head and heals him. Then he turns to Peter and tells him that "he that takes the sword shall perish by the sword." Now talk about a rebuke! and it was done in the presense of all of his enemies, of all people! Could have been a ego-buster, for sure. I wonder how annoyed Peter was at this moment in time? In any case, he must have taken the lesson to heart because he accepted the rebuke and went on to follow him after Pentecost with boldness and aggression.

My thoughts,

ginnyrose

Hi ginnyrose,

Proverbs 9:8
Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
John 21:15-17
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. [16] He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. [17] He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Did he? Oh yah and how.
Maybe a good rebuke is what we all need to get us to heed the words of the Lord.

Peter was simply or should I say absolutely shown the difference between trusting in the arm of the flesh and trusting in the Lord who is our Hope.

Jeremiah 17:5-8
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. [6] For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. [7] Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. [8] For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

Do you think when Peter reflected back on this experience that he was very thankful to the Lord for showing him the difference?
Something else Jesus taught Peter, to love and forgive your enemies even while they are in the process of taking or harming you.

Luke 22:50-51
And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear. [51] And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

Luke 23:33-34
And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
[34] Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Seems to give teeth to these words of Jesus:

Matthew 5:39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:44-45
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:

Seems these commands were more than just words, since He followed them so should we.

What a Saviour is our Lord, He not only spoke Peace He lived it by example.

Think; where we would be if Jesus would have called for the more than twelve legions of angels.

For He Is Our Peace!

In His Love
pastyorfrin

Pastorfrin,

i really appreciate your veiw on the passage of scripture where Jesus tells the diciples to get swords... i've heard other explantions and commentaries, but that is about the clearest i've heard yet. Thank you for seeking God about that, and following His Spirit. i've come to simmilar conclusion, but didn't know quite how to put it into words. Marvelous work. God bless you.

Peace dudes, peace 8-)

lol

In Him,
-nate

Here is a story from Anabaptist history that might grab your imagination. FYI: Anabaptists came to the fore in 1525 out of response to Ulrich Zwingli's refusal to go all the way in the reforms the church needed. They were persecuted by the Catholic Chruch and the Reformed church as well. History tells us the refomed church was more severe in their persecution then the Catholics. Anyhow, here is the story:

[u][b]Why Did Dirk Willems Turn Back?[/b][/u]
Late in the winter of 1569, Dirk Willems of Holland was discovered as an Anabaptist, and a thief catcher came to arrest him at the village of Asperen. Running for his life, Dirk came to a body of water still coated with ice. After making his way across in great peril, he realised his pursuer had fallen through into the freezing water.

Turning back, Dirk ran to the struggling man and dragged him safely to shore. The thief catcher wanted to release Dirk, but a burgomaster - having appeared on the scene - reminded the man he was under oath to deliver criminals to justice. Dirk was bound off to prison, interrogated, and tortured in an unsuccessful effort to make him renounce his faith. He was tried and found guilty of having been rebaptised, of holding secret meetings in his home, and of allowing baptism there - all of which he freely confessed.

"Persisting obstinately in his opinion", Dirk was sentenced to execution by fire. On the day of execution, a strong east wind blew the flames away from his upper body so that death was long delayed. The same wind carried his voice to the next town, where people heard him cry more than seventy times, "O my Lord; my God". The judge present was "finally filled with sorrow and regret". Wheeling his horse around so he saw no more, he ordered the executioner, "Dispatch the man with a quick death."
http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/node/175

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hi nate,

Thank you, for your kind words. He gave us His word to show us that He is the way, the truth and the life and we will be one of His disciples if:
John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

We must be led by His word and not our emotions.
Luke 9:23-24
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. [24] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

If we follow Him, then we will do the things that He shows us just as He did what the Father showed Him. The sword we need to wield is the Sword of the Spirit as He leads us along the path of righteousness.

In His Love
Pastorfrin

Amen Brother Pastorfrin. i'm in full agreement with you on that for sure!!!

Praise God for His unchanging Word that will for ever endure. Though the world pass away, His Word shall endure.

GLORY
!
!
!

:-)

In Christ,
-nathan/nate

Matthew Henry has an excellent take on Luke 22 as well, and pastorfrin's post and Henry's commentary coincide on many points:

"They must not now expect that their friends would be so kind and generous to them as they had been; and therefore, He that has a purse, let him take it, for he may have occasion for it, and for all the good husbandry he can use. [2.] They must now expect that their enemies would be more fierce upon them than they had been, and they would need magazines as well as stores: He that has no sword wherewith to defend himself against robbers and assassins (2 Co. 11:26) will find a great want of it, and will be ready to wish, some time or other, that he had sold his garment and bought one. This is intended only to show that the times would be very perilous, so that no man would think himself safe if he had not a sword by his side. But the sword of the Spirit is the sword which the disciples of Christ must furnish themselves with. Christ having suffered for us, we must arm ourselves with the same mind (1 Peter 4:1), arm ourselves with an expectation of trouble, that it may not be a surprise to us, and with a holy resignation to the will of God in it, that there may be no opposition in us to it: and then we are better prepared than if we had sold a coat to buy a sword. The disciples hereupon enquire what strength they had, and find they had among them two swords (v. 38), of which one was Peter’s. The Galileans generally travelled with swords. Christ wore none himself, but he was not against his disciples’ wearing them. But he intimates how little he would have them depend upon this when he saith, It is enough, which some think is spoken ironically: "Two swords among twelve men! you are bravely armed indeed when our enemies are now coming out against us in great multitudes, and every one with a sword!’’ Yet two swords are sufficient for those who need none, having God himself to be the shield of their help and the sword of their excellency, Deu. 33:29."

- Matthew Henry

ginnyrose wrote:
Here is a story from Anabaptist history that might grab your imagination. FYI: Anabaptists came to the fore in 1525 out of response to Ulrich Zwingli's refusal to go all the way in the reforms the church needed. They were persecuted by the Catholic Chruch and the Reformed church as well. History tells us the refomed church was more severe in their persecution then the Catholics. Anyhow, here is the story:

[u][b]Why Did Dirk Willems Turn Back?[/b][/u]
Late in the winter of 1569, Dirk Willems of Holland was discovered as an Anabaptist, and a thief catcher came to arrest him at the village of Asperen. Running for his life, Dirk came to a body of water still coated with ice. After making his way across in great peril, he realised his pursuer had fallen through into the freezing water.

Turning back, Dirk ran to the struggling man and dragged him safely to shore. The thief catcher wanted to release Dirk, but a burgomaster - having appeared on the scene - reminded the man he was under oath to deliver criminals to justice. Dirk was bound off to prison, interrogated, and tortured in an unsuccessful effort to make him renounce his faith. He was tried and found guilty of having been rebaptised, of holding secret meetings in his home, and of allowing baptism there - all of which he freely confessed.

"Persisting obstinately in his opinion", Dirk was sentenced to execution by fire. On the day of execution, a strong east wind blew the flames away from his upper body so that death was long delayed. The same wind carried his voice to the next town, where people heard him cry more than seventy times, "O my Lord; my God". The judge present was "finally filled with sorrow and regret". Wheeling his horse around so he saw no more, he ordered the executioner, "Dispatch the man with a quick death."
http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/node/175

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hi ginnyrose,

Thank you, yes sister a very touching story that I have read many times and each time seems to shed more light on the importance of non-resistance.
Just think of the witness, for quite a number of years the church has been taught to go forth and proclaim with their mouths the Lord and that they have, while at the same time running a sword through their enemies and living lives that are anything but forgiving. This is not what Jesus taught and that is why it does not work. Jesus said:
Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

What is our light?

Dirk did just that, he could have let the thief catcher drown; after all we were only commanded to feed our enemy if he was hungry and to give him drink if he was thirsty nothing about rescuing him, especially if he is trying to turn you over to be burned at the stake. Today we only seem to be interested in saving our own skins and too bad about the other guy, we seem to have cast aside these words of the Lord:
Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

By putting forth a helping hand to his enemy Dirk presented Jesus Christ in a most powerful way and there could not have been anyone who was a witness to this that could make any excuse for rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
By Dirk reaching out in the love of Christ, coals of fire was placed upon every heart that was so hardened as not to be drawn by the Lords love.
Dirk loved not his life unto death, which is the greatest witness one can give and one we all should be willing to follow; Jesus did shouldn’t we?
Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Why Did Dirk Willems Turn Back? The love of Jesus Christ.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi Paul,

John Wesley voices similar views:
Luk 22:35 - When I sent you - lacked ye any thing - Were ye not borne above all want and danger?
Luk 22:36 - But now - You will be quite in another situation. You will want every thing. He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one - It is plain, this is not to be taken literally. It only means, This will be a time of extreme danger.
Luk 22:38 - Here are two swords - Many of Galilee carried them when they travelled, to defend themselves against robbers and assassins, who much infested their roads. But did the apostles need to seek such defence? And he said; It is enough - I did not mean literally, that every one of you must have a sword.

It is not what Henry, Wesley, you, me or any other man has to say about the use of the sword but only what our Lord had to say.
Matthew 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

All the reasoning of man does not change the words or the example of Jesus and the disciples. All but John (and it was not John’s doing) gave their lives for His sake and they did not loose their lives while resisting with a sword but laid them down for Christ sake. We see throughout the history of the church example after example of men, women, and children having laid down their lives for Christ sake, not returning evil for evil, but overcoming evil with good. This is happening in the world as we speak and those same words apply today as they did two thousand years ago.

Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

May we:
Hebrews 12:1-4
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. [3] For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. [4] Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Yes one day we may have to resist unto blood striving against sin, but it will not be with the sword of the flesh but with: Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Brother, what a joy to be counted worthy to suffer even unto death for His sake and that through it a lost soul may come to Jesus. You see it is not about us it is about others coming to Jesus because they see Him in us.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Brother, what a joy to be counted worthy to suffer even unto death for His sake and that through it a lost soul may come to Jesus. You see it is not about us it is about others coming to Jesus because they see Him in us.

An honorable post, dear brother. May it be so..

Brother Paul

Brothers and Sisters,

Here is an example of a young man who held fast to the teaching of the Lord and it cost him his life.

“ Eusebius, the fourth-century historian, tells us, for example, of a youth of 21 from Numidia, Maximilian by name, who appeared before an African proconsul named Dion for induction into the army. Maximilian refused induction, however, stating simply, "I cannot serve [as a soldier], for I am a Christian." Dion replied sharply, "Get into the service, or it will cost you your life." Maximilian replied, "I do this age no war-service, but I do 'war-service' for my God." No amount of threatening could budge him from his simple confession, "I am a Christian and I cannot do evil. . . .I shall not perish, but when I
have forsaken this world, my soul shall live, with Christ my Lord." The outcome was that on March 12, 295, this young "soldier" of Christ was put to death. Maximilian's father returned home, "giving thanks to God that he had been able to bring such a present to the Lord." Professor Cadoux reports that there were numerous cases like that of Maximilian, and ventures the suggestion that this may have contributed to the onset of the severe persecution which broke out in 303 and raged for a decade.”
More can be read on this subject by J.C. Wenger at: http://www.bibleviews.com/Biblicalnonresist.html

Isn’t it strange that the young mans father gave thanks to God that he had been able to bring such a present to the Lord?
Quote:
“Maximilian's father returned home, "giving thanks to God that he had been able to bring such a present to the Lord."

Today he would be considered a coward.

Notice:
Quote:
." Professor Cadoux reports that there were numerous cases like that of Maximilian, and ventures the suggestion that this may have contributed to the onset of the severe persecution which broke out in 303 and raged for a decade.

Why do you think Christians refusing to serve in the military in large numbers would bring persecution?

Does the governments of this world need the support of the religious system to justify their wars?
If so, what does that say about the religious system?

I posted this earlier in this thread but feel it is worth repeating.

The Council of Nicaea
THE PATTERN OF CHURCH-STATE
COMPROMISE IN CHRISTIANITY
WAS SET IN 325 A.D. AT NICAEA.
by Gavin Finley
“Compromise is an awful thing.
This is a well known fact to those who know of the God of the Bible. Warnings from the Old Testament prophets concerned idolatry with other gods. In the New Testament the Apostle Paul continued along the same line. He warned about mixing "the cup of Christ with the cup of devils". (1Cor.10:21)
As people who bear the Name of Christ we have been instructed to keep ourselves undefiled by the world. And our church leaders have an even greater responsibility to keep the faith in holiness and teach the pure doctrine that was first delivered to the saints. As representatives of Jesus Christ and His Body on earth we dare not make any dealings whatsoever on His behalf or on behalf of His church with the principalities and powers of this world. We see many such dealings in which church leaders 'sell out' the sovereign things of God to the princes of this world. These are impudent acts of disobedience. We dare not have anything to do with such acts of presumption. Because those who enter into such profane dealings will most certainly be brought to an awful judgment.
Alas, such scruples do not seem be a concern for many church leaders. Down through church history they have presumed to set themselves up as representatives and brokers of Christ here on earth before the world. Then in brazen self will they proceed to sell the holy things of God down the river. The holy things of God are then re-engineeered, re-packaged, and sold to the lowest bidder at the tables of Mammon. In this manner the Name of YHVH, our Judeo-Christian God is brought down to dirt level. This is the compromise that degrades our faith and brings grief to His Congregation of God.
What is wrong with this mixture of the holy with the profane? The answer is quite straightforward. The Body and blood of Christ is holy. The Name of our Lord Jesus is to be lifted up. It is not an ecclessiastical franchise to be bought and sold at the round tables of earthly politics. Nor is it to be sold in the seedy bazaars of and world trade.”
WILL THE FUTURE DAN.9:27 COVENANT WITH THE ANTICHRIST BE NICEA PHASE 2?
So much for church deals with secular kings and princes. Can we learn from this earlier church folly? Pray God we shall. Because the church may well be asked to revisit Nicea, at least in spirit, if not in the same geographical location. The church state deal we have at present is not compromised enough for the emerging secular powers of the New World Order. The coming global peacemaker, who is probably even now working behind the scenes will ask the established church to go even further into pagan and humanistic admixture. To participate, to profit, or even be licensed to operate legally, the church denominations may well be asked to mix the cup of Christ with all the other religions of the world. This concession will be called for in the interests of "unity", "inclusivism" and "world peace". This endtime renegotiating of the Nicean Accord to embrace not just Christianity but also Buddhism, Islam, Wicca and animism may well be on the agenda.
There is nothing new under the sun. Ah, yes. As the endtime drama opens up we may well be asked to "renegogiate" the Nicea deal. It will be 'decision time' for many Christian believers. But our God knows all about this.
He has told us this ahead of time. His desire is for His people to be forewarned and for us to be prepared in Him. He has made abundant provision for our witness. When we read the Great Commission" we see that it is actually an article of blood covenant promise of blessing and provision. It has been given to us by Jesus Christ Himself. God has promised to be with His people right up to the end of this evil age. By His divine grace and favour He stands ready to lead us on into a deeper covenant relationship with Him.
Through all this God has not forgotten His covenant people. He Himself will raise up a standard for the peoples. (Isa.62:10) The good news is that even in the midst of this end-time declension and apostasy God will be calling out His people once again. The trumpets will be sounding forth the alarm. God will be calling His people to assembly. They will be crying out to Him. Indeed there will be a magnificent, powerful, and holy end-time revival!
Now is the day of salvation.
Now is the time to draw near to Him.
Grace and shalom to all the saints."
Link to complete article: http://endtimepilgrim.org/nicea.htm

I think this all may be part of the (Something Horrible), but He said Fear Not so lets count it all joy and look foward to what the Lord has called us to as we Trust In Him.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Pastor wrote:

We see throughout the history of the church example after example of men, women, and children having laid down their lives for Christ sake, not returning evil for evil, but overcoming evil with good.

I have another story to illustrate the point made here. I looked on the web for it, did not find it and neither do I have a printed copy so as I share it it is from my memory.

I do not know the names of the characters so I will give them one: the man is Hans and his wife is Margaret. This is a true story.

Hans and Margaret were Anabaptists living during the Reformation era when Anabaptists experienced hostility/persecution from their neighbors and former friends.

Hans and Margaret had retired for the night. They were a hard working couple who loved the LORD and worked to serve him faithfully. Soon they were sleeping soundly when Hans woke up, hearing voices coming from the roof of his house. He got up, and quietly checked to see what was going on when he saw men removing the thatch from his roof. Quickly, he roused his wife fom her slumber and told her what was going on and asked her to cook a meal for these men. Like the dutiful wife that she was, she happily complied. Soon the meal was cooked and ready to eat.

Has went out and called to the men, "You all have been working hard and must now be hungry. My wife has cooked a meal for you so I ask you come in to eat and then you can resume your work." Quietly, the men followed Hans into the house where they eagarly ate the repast set before them. While they ate, the more ashamed they became. Now being refreshed, they resumed their work - except for this time, they replaced the bundles they had removed before eating.

Coals of fire....must have burned well!

ginnyrose

Annie and ginnyrose,

Thank You for your wonderful post and kind words.

I have not given up nor am I discouraged. We are
swamped with Grandchildren for the next several days while parents are on retreat, wow what fun this is :-? . Just to let you all know where I will be and I can see already that we will need a retreat after this.
Thanks to all on the other threads as well I will
miss you all but 'I will be baaack' :-)

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi all I’m back,

The grandchildren have all returned to their homes and wow I think my dear wife and I are older now, really though it was a joy to have them Alllll here. It might be a little more of a joy to have them all home with their parents.

Back to the topic at hand, I see something in the church that alarms me and has caused me to clean the spit out of my trumpet and begin to sound anew.:-

There are a majority in the religious system who love the world and are dedicated to keeping the people of God worshiping the things of the world.
What would those things be?
Think about the word our or my, when it is used in statements such as, my or our country, my or our flag, my or our home, my or our city, my or our church, my or our denomination and ect. ect. There is an obvious attachment to these things which is evident by the way we speak of them. The attitude is put forth that what is mine or ours is better than that which is yours that is, my or our country is better than, blessed more of God, thought of more highly and is surely more spiritual than yours.
What does this attitude breed, a love of the things of this world above and at the expense of the promises of God. We do it so often and without thinking about what we are saying that we become programmed to the things of this world.
This did not happen yesterday or in the last century, but started very early in church history. These things are the spirit of anti-Christ and John warned the church early on, that this spirit was in the world.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Who is antichrist?

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Who denies the Father and the Son?

James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

My and ours when speaking of the things of this world causes us to conformity with the world and thus we become friends with the world.

James makes this all so plain in the entirety of chapter 4

James 4:1-17
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? [2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. [3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. [4] Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. [5] Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? [6] But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. [7] Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. [8] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. [9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. [10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. [11] Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. [12] There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
[13] Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: [14] Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. [15] For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. [16] But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. [17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You see, war and lust and my and ours comes from trying to keep what is mine and ours and causes us to become lovers of the world instead of seeking:

Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

It is not my or ours but it is something far better:

Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. [15] And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. [16] But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

We are called to:

1 Tim. 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Would You Be A Valiant Soldier? By William Gurnall
“As part of Christ's army, you march in the ranks of gallant spirits. Every one of your fellow soldiers is the child of a King. Some, like you, are in the midst of the battle, besieged on every side by affliction and temptation. Others, after many assaults, repulses, and rallyings of their faith, are already standing upon the wall of heaven as conquerors. From there they look down and urge you, their comrades on earth, to march up the hill after them. This is their cry: "Fight to the death and the city is your own, as now it is ours! For the waging of a few days' conflict, you will be rewarded with heaven's glory. One moment of this celestial joy will dry up all your tears, heal all your wounds, and erase the sharpness of the fight with the joy of your permanent victory."

In a word- God, angels, and the saints already with the Lord are spectators, watching how you conduct yourself as a child of the Most High. This cloud of witnesses (Heb. 12:1) shouts joyfully from the celestial sidelines every time you defeat a temptation, scale a difficulty, or regain lost ground from your enemies. And if the fight should be too much for you, your dear Saviour stands by with reserves for your relief at a moment's notice. His very heart leaps within Him to see the proof of your love and zeal for Him in all your combats. He will not forget your faithfulness. And when you come off the field, He will receive you as joyously as the Father received Him upon His return to heaven.”

Would you be a valiant soldier? If so it will be for what is His.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Brothers and Sisters,
I think this fits very well into today.

“Called to What? At what point do nonresistant Christians protest when the state employs the sanction of force? When a man goes berserk and begins to kill people? When a gang of pirates makes shipping lanes unsafe? When the rulers of a given state embark on a policy of conquering and exploiting neighboring states? When a government sets out on a military expedition on the other side of the earth, in the type of situation when the local nation must almost be destroyed in order to "save" it? In a general way the Christian nonresistant feels that the mission of Christ's church is a sort of extension of that of Christ. Christ did not come to administer justice, or to hold court to decide disputes between brothers. He did not come to punish evildoers, but to redeem the evil race. His entire ministry was one of loving and self-giving service. This is, declares the absolutist, also the calling of the Christian. He is not here to administer justice, to punish evildoers, or to take up arms for the rights of the oppressed. His calling is to be a herald of the saving gospel of Christ, to be an agent of reconciliation, proclaiming by life and by lips that Christ does save from sin. He does set men free from the tyranny of Satan. He does bring peace-both peace with God and peace with one's fellowman. The nonresistant does not attempt to instruct the government on specifics as to how to cope with organized crime, prostitution, the liquor industry, racial injustice, and the like. But he does attempt to give a clear witness that God commands all men everywhere to repent, that any violation of the ethic of love in human relations is sin, that any activity or business which degrades persons is a major evil, and that it is the will of God that society should be "colorblind," showing equal love and providing equal opportunities for all men-regardless of how much or how little pigmentation they may have. President John R. Mumaw has attempted to spell out the difference between this historic doctrine of absolute nonresistance and its paler and perhaps less biblical half brother, pacifism, in his essay, Nonresistance and Pacifism (Scottdale, Pa., Second Printing, 1952).”

More can be read on this subject by J.C. Wenger at: http://www.bibleviews.com/Biblicalnonresist.html

“His calling is to be a herald of the saving gospel of Christ, to be an agent of reconciliation, proclaiming by life and by lips that Christ does save from sin.”

What is ours?

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi Annie,
Thank you for this truth,
Counting the Cost is a very good article a necessity for every one of His sheep.
There is a wonderful truth that is brought out by F.B. Meyer which I have posted below.

________________________________________________
He Sees It First

"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice"

(John 10:4).

Whatever awaits us is encountered first by Him--each difficulty and complication; each wild beast or wilder robber; each yawning chasm or precipitous path. Faith's eye can always discern His majestic presence in front; and when that cannot be seen, it is dangerous to move forward. Bind this comfort to your heart: that the Saviour has tried for Himself all the experiences through which He asks you to pass; and He would not ask you to pass through them unless He was sure that they were not too difficult for your feet, or too trying for your strength. The Breaker always goes up before us. The Woodsman hews a path for us through the trackless forest. The broad-shouldered Brother pushes a way for us through the crowd. And we have only to follow.

This is the Blessed Life--not anxious to see far in front; not careful about the next step; not eager to choose the path; not weighted with the heavy responsibilities of the future: but quietly following behind the Shepherd, one step at a time.” F.B. Meyer
________________________________________________

What a comfort to know whatever He calls us to He has been there before. This is one reason I strongly believe Jesus meant what He said when He told us to Love our enemies, because that is what He did.
When we see Jesus going before us with the sword then and only then will it be time to take up one,
Until then we obediently wield the Sword of the Spirit as He has given us example, knowing He will never call us to go where He has not already been. Praise the Name of Jesus, He is our Rock, He is our Fortress, He is our Deliverer in Him will I trust!

Blessing to you and yours,

In His Love
pastorfrin

Pastor,

This past weekend we were in FL to attend the funeral of my husband's nephew's wife who died suddenly from a brain hemmorage. We stayed for the Sunday worship service and the fellowship meal which followed. Across the table from us sat a very interesting couple who had an unusual testimony. After hearing this I feel compelled to share it on SI, on this thread.

Bro. Tim was working in the Pentegon for the Navy in the intelligence division, had given 19 1/2 years of service to the military. In the Pentegon there was a Bible study attended by other career officers of whom he was a part. One day the leader asked Tim to share how the LORD has been working with him. He was reluctant to share this, thought he may not be understood, but after careful consideration, plunged ahead and shared. He told them how the LORD has been increasing the conviction in him how a Christian cannot serve in the military and be faithful to Jesus' commands. Interestingly enough, he was not the only person in that group that was being convicted in this area. Bro. Tim felt the LORD leading him to resign from the Navy, forfeiting his pension and other benefits that were to be his IF he continued on six more months. He said I did this all in obedience to what the LORD was telling me to do. (One other officer resigned later for the same reason.)

Bro. Tim went on to tell us how the LORD had been teaching them in different areas, bringing conviction into their lives. He did it one issue at a time. The first issue they were confronted with was the one of the headship veiling. The second one was non-conformity to the world, third: once-saved-always-saved and lastly, non-resistance. (Time prevented further discussion. So I do not know what issue they are dealing with now, except knowing what God wants them to do career-wise: He was fired from his teaching position at a public HS because he ministered to his students spiritually: the school administrator was a lesbian, told him he did not belong there, no comment on his performance as a teacher..)

Bro. Tim shared another story: he knew of an AF pilot who ws having doubts about his service in the military when he was shipped to the Middle East. This pilot was shot down. He said there was no good reason for this to have happened. He felt like he knew if he shot at the enemy, that pilot would go to a Christless eternty so he opted to not shoot. I am unsure whether the US pilot was killed...I think he was but cannot say it for certain.

Anyhow, we were blessed in visiting with him and his wife and just thought I would share this for ya'lls edification and encouragement.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

PS: Pastorfrin, do you know this fellow? He lives on the eastern seaboard...

Hi ginnyrose,
Sorry to hear of your families loss, may the Lord's peace keep the families hearts and minds in their time of mourning.

This testimony is truly a blessing and a confirmation how the Lord is preparing His people for what is to come.
I have had a heavy burden to pray for God’s people to be prepared for what is coming.
We all need to realize it is His Word and His example we have been called to follow and not our emotions or a natural tendency to return blow for blow. If we cannot trust Him now what will happen when our families are used to get us to deny Him? So many think they will be able to physically defend against such persecution but it will only play into the hands of the enemy. If people would stop and think what caused the early church to grow when such horrendous things were being done to them they would begin to grasp the teaching of non-resistance. Holding unto our confidence steadfast unto the end can only be done through the Spirit and any physical attempt to hold unto it will end in defeat.

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 10:35
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

Rev. 13:9-10
If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

2 Cor. 10:4
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I truly believe our Lord is speaking too many on this issue and is preparing His people for what is ahead; why else would men and women give up careers and their lives to obey the Lord when everything in this world and most of the religious system calls it foolishness?

Quote:
"PS: Pastorfrin, do you know this fellow? He lives on the eastern seaboard..."

No sister I do not believe I do since I live quite some distance from the East coast.

Thank you again sister for sharing with us this testimony.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Brothers and Sisters,

“Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.”

I have a few questions for all to ponder.
Jesus himself commanded His disciples to teach all nations to observe all things that He had taught them. In light of this; why do so many say the Sermon on the Mount is not for us today?

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus gave instruction to His disciples not to resist evil but to turn the other cheek.
He said if someone takes your coat to give them your cloak also.
If you are compelled to go a mile then go two.
To give to them that ask and to them that would borrow from you not to turn away.

Matthew 5:38-42
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Why don’t we? Instead we shoot people who would take our possessions using the reasoning that it is mine I worked for what I have. Totally ignoring Jesus teaching in Matt. 6 which says:

Matthew 6:19-34
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: [20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: [21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. [22] The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. [23] But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. [25] Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? [26] Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? [27] Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? [28] And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: [29] And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. [30] Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? [31] Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? [32] (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. [33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. [34] Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Who do we trust?

Now Jesus takes it beyond our reasoning’s when he says:

Matthew 5:43-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Our reasoning, well you can love your enemy and still kill them and then do you pray for their soul, how?

Paul tells us exactly what Jesus meant in Rom. 12

Romans 12:17-21
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. [18] If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. [19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Paul does not say to kill them, he said to feed them and give them drink. Jesus did not say to kill them; but to love them and pray for them, and not one disciple every said to kill your enemy.

Jesus said:
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

So why are we so intent on fighting and killing to keep what is ours?

James makes it very plain in James 4
James 4:1-6
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? [2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. [3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. [4] Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. [5] Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? [6] But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Why in light of the scripture are we so afraid of losing what we claim God has given us?
If He wants it back do you not think He can take it, or will we shoot Him as well?

James 3:13-18
Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. [14] But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. [15] This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. [16] For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. [17] But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Why would Jesus spend His entire earthly ministry teaching His disciples these things if He was not preparing them to teach these very things to all who would believe?

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Where is our heart, what kingdom do we belong to and who is our king?

Psalm 121:2
My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth.

In His Love
pastorfrin

ginyrose wrote:

Bro. Tim was working in the Pentegon for the Navy in the intelligence division, had given 19 1/2 years of service to the military. In the Pentegon there was a Bible study attended by other career officers of whom he was a part. One day the leader asked Tim to share how the LORD has been working with him. He was reluctant to share this, thought he may not be understood, but after careful consideration, plunged ahead and shared. He told them how the LORD has been increasing the conviction in him how a Christian cannot serve in the military and be faithful to Jesus' commands. Interestingly enough, he was not the only person in that group that was being convicted in this area. Bro. Tim felt the LORD leading him to resign from the Navy, forfeiting his pension and other benefits that were to be his IF he continued on six more months. He said I did this all in obedience to what the LORD was telling me to do. (One other officer resigned later for the same reason.)

Thank you for this testimony!

Hi K_DAY,

Ginnyrose posted back on page 3 an excellent testimony on this very subject, I think you will find it helpful.
We will be praying the Lord will guide you to a peace loving fellowship.
I have added the post by ginnyrose below.
In His Love
pastorfrin
_________________________________________________

By ginnyrose:
"Pacifism vs Biblical Nonresistance and My Testimony
As I read through this thread, I do not see where the issues of pacifism vs nonresistance is addressed. For many people these two concepts are one and the same, yet they are very different in its application to life and Biblical principles and therein lies the resistance many have towards this doctrine.

Pacifism differs from nonresistance. And here is a description as given by [the late] J. C. Wenger, a noted Mennonite scholar: When one turns away from theoretical considerations to actual life, however, he discovers that the terms pacifism and nonresistance are not always Synonymous. Guy F. Hershberger distinguishes pacifism from biblical nonresistance in four respects: (1) The pacifist may devote his labors to the abolition of war, making international peace his major goal, while the New Testament nonresistant is concerned primarily to bring men and women to the experience of "peace with God" through responding to the glorious gospel of Christ in repentance and faith. The ensuing relationship of peace-both with God and with men-is far deeper and more meaningful than the absence of warfare. (2) Pacifism as a movement does not always reckon as seriously as it should with the depths of sin in the human heart, and consequently, is overly optimistic about the possible abolition of war. (3) Pacifism sometimes fails to recognize the role of the threat of force in the peace-keeping function of the state -- in the preservation of law and order. In this task, the state functions as an agent of the wrath of God against sin, and even employs the threat of bodily harm if the evildoer resists. (4) Finally, the pacifist sometimes fails to see his role as one of absolute nonresistance and a willingness to suffer injustice, and to overcome evil with good, and he compromises an absolute position by "nonviolent resistance"-by behavior which is more Gandhian than Christian.

More can be read on this subject by J.C. Wenger at: http://www.bibleviews.com/Biblicalnonresist.html

Now for a brief explanation of my own pilgrimage in this area of nonresistance.

I was broguht up in the conservative Anabaptist tradition, taught that serving in the military is not for the Christian, but I also entertained doubts similar to ones raised on this thread. I asked our leaders these questions but nobody answered them to my satisfaction. And so life went on...until I was about 40 years old and I started to read brother Isaiah's writings. Up to this point I did not enjoy the OT prophets..thought they were so redundant in their message...I just did not get it. Understand?

Now, I had been taught the NT concepts were introduced to the Jewish people through the OT prophets, most noteably in Isaiah. An instructor in Jewish Evangelism at Bible School told us one can use the book of Isaiah to bring a person to the LORD. As a young woman I then wondered who on earth could ever understand that book! So I remained ignorant of Isaiah for many years..until one day the Holy Spirit inspired me to read it, study it. Wow! was I ever in for some surprises! Today, I count it among my favorite books in the Bible.

So I read Isaiah. Then I came to chapter 22: 5-11: 5: For it is a day of trouble, and of treading down, and of perplexity by the Lord GOD of hosts in the valley of vision, breaking down the walls, and of crying to the mountains.
6: And Elam bare the quiver with chariots of men and horsemen, and Kir uncovered the shield.
7: And it shall come to pass, that thy choicest valleys shall be full of chariots, and the horsemen shall set themselves in array at the gate.
8: And he discovered the covering of Judah, and thou didst look in that day to the armour of the house of the forest.
9: Ye have seen also the breaches of the city of David, that they are many: and ye gathered together the waters of the lower pool.
10: And ye have numbered the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses have ye broken down to fortify the wall.
11: Ye made also a ditch between the two walls for the water of the old pool: but ye have not looked unto the maker thereof, neither had respect unto him that fashioned it long ago.
Here God is chiding them for depending on their defenses to protect them from the enemy.

Fast forword to chapter 30:1,2:"Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!". Hmmm, now God challenged their act of trusting in a foreign nation for their protection. This concept is detailed more plainly in chapter 31:1: "Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong;, but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!
Now if you wil go to chapter 36, you read in detail how Rabshakeh tried to get Hezekiah to submit to their aggression. They played an fascinating game of intimidation and persuasion. But Hezekiah remained silent and they went before the LORD in prayer who then supernaturally delivered Judah from this idoltrous nation.

Now I read this and was stunned at the concepts I read in the OT, of all places. So I did some more checking...did God command Judah after Isaiah's ministy to go to battle against anyone? I read the Chronicles, Kings, Ezra and Nehemiah, and Esther - all books of history. The only time one reads of mass revenge taken by the Jews upon their enemies was after they were in Babylon, as recorded in Esther. But this was not a command given by God. What I did find was that the time after Isaiah the history deals primarily with the spiritual condition of Judah: their apostasy and revivals. That is all. God did not ever again tell them to go to battle and "I will give them into your hand."

Jesus comes on the scene some 400 years after Malachi and what he said about peace: "He that takes the sword shall persih by sword" made a lot of sense when you compare what Brother Isaiah said hundreds of years earlier.

Now, how do we respond to the need to protect us from evil men? This is one of the most often asked questions. Perhaps another one might be in order: how often are godly people victims of violent crimes, like rape, murder, robbery? Very seldom. Very few are the incidents of godly people being victimized by acts of violence. Does this not demonstrate God's protecting hand on his children? that we do not have to resort to violence to protect ourselves? And if a godly person does get killed, what is so bad about that? But the children you ask? Do they not belong to God, and is God not big enough to take care of them? Many children from godly homes have been victims of accidents and no one is questioning God about this!

Anyhow, this is my testimony...sorry it is so long. I hope it will challenge any here who have questions and doubts...and if you still wonder whether I believe heaven will be denied to one who serves in the military, all I can say is I do not know...this decision belongs to God.

(And for your info we had a son who served in the Guard as 1LT. and three sons who did not serve in the military.)

Blessings,
ginnyrose"

I find it quite fascinating how God arranged events among so many people that enabled us to visit with Bro. & Sis. Mooney. We talked for only 20 minutes (?). They were there for worship service and the meal following and left very soon after eating. I told my DH it was worthwhile going to FL just to hear Bro. Mooney share with us. After hearing this, I knew this story had to be shared with a larger audience.

You know, sometimes it gets a tad bit discouraging when one sees so much apostasy about us, among people we thought were stable in their faith, in their walk with the LORD. Then when you hear how God IS working in the most unusual ways, it does cheer us. This excites me. Glad it cheered you all as well.

ginnyrose

Brothers and Sisters,

I have several questions for all who feel led to answer, please take some time to seek the Lord so we avoid simple opinions wrought out of emotion.

Why are we Christians against abortion? Because it is murder, the taking of a defenseless, unable to defend itself God given human life. This action causes untold gilt and years of not being able to forgive ones self, for some, forgiveness never comes.
We have spent billions of dollars and God only knows how many hours fighting for this horror to be stopped. When one looks at the untold suffering that this horrible crime causes, one wonders why it ever began. Why is it?

Now let me ask this, why do we send our men and women to war for what we say is to defend our freedom? Many defenseless, unable to defend themselves God given human lives, are lost. Many, who have never taken a breath of air, are killed along with their mothers. This action causes untold guilt, years of not being able to forgive ones self and for many forgiveness never comes. Trillions of dollars are spent and countless millions have given their lives to fight for something man in himself cannot attain. When one looks at the untold suffering this horrible crime causes, one wonders why it ever began. Why is it?

Is not the taking of life to make our life more convenient the same?

James 4:1-2
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? [2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Greetings Pastorfin,

Is not the taking of life to make our life more convenient the same?

Perhaps an answer to your question, as to how some Christians can justify this war, is prevented in the way you have asked it.

I think those who are roused by this war would say that we are not fighting for convenience, but for survival. (Interestingly enough, some who defend abortion in the case of medical emergencies, also offer "self-defense" as the justifiable cause.)

So, a parenthetical question is: are there biblical grounds for "bearing the sword" in emergencies or self-defense?

Also, I feel to noteworthy to question if perhaps there are some who feel as if they are becoming pacifists, not because they question all war...but this war. And if so...perhaps it is equally worth asking if the reason some question this war, is because this isn't their grandparents time to fight, but theirs.

You see brother, it may be that you see the light better because you have seen the darkness...you have been to war. For many of us inexperienced in facing such a large dangerous threat, especially the men, we want to know what stuff our convictions are made of. I was listening to some soldiers calling in from Iraq today on the radio. They seemed upbeat, confident, and morally clear. Whatever explanation there might be, these men were a fascinating juxtapositon to the media and the congress.

But brother I am looking for more then being upbeat, confident, and morally clear. And I am looking to be more then a war protestor. I want to live according to the Beattitudes that our Lord taught. We know that purity of heart, peace, and suffering for righteousness are the culmination of a desciples walk with the Master. Yet, such claims must be utterly consistent, or we are fooling ourselves. It is the prerogative of Judas', self-serving professers, both liberal and conservative, to cherry-pick the convictions that are important to them. We, who claim to follow Jesus have given up this convenience. If self-defense is wrong, then it is always wrong...and not just in the business of war, but also in the business of life.

"Blessed are the peacemakers". How sad if I claimed to have the peace of Christ, when all the while I was only experiencing childish indolence.

Ah, I suppose we must overcome our fears of being a hypocrite, or even a fanatic, trusting that it is not our moral convictions that keep us---but our encapsulation in Christ, keeping us shielded by God's power. And if we believe our old man was in Christ when he was crucified, we must confidently walk in the ressurection of Christ. In Romans 6 Paul tells us that not only did Christ die for our sins, but Christ died unto sin. Accordingly, if we are in Christ, we too have died unto sin.

I am among those roused by this war. Oh brother, in all I do, if only I would be roused by the Holy Spirit. And more then roused, more then yearning, and more then disciplined...but travailing until Christ be formed in me.

Then peace will not be my conviction, but my character.

Bless you brother. You are special to this place.

MC

Hi MC,
I really enjoy your post Brother; you really cause me to ponder.

I used the word convenient for the purpose of comparison. Abortion is used by many as a convenient means of birth control, this is horrible but true.
In the same sense citizens send their men and women to war as a convenient way to keep what many call freedom with no effort on their part other than possibly waving a flag and hosting a bumper sticker that says, support our troops. This is the way things have been since the end of WW 2.
Now, as people see their personal situation change and they start to be somehow impacted in a negative way, as either of these, abortion or war becoming an inconvenience, they begin to speak against them. So you see, it is about convenience, for people are naturally selfish and expect much more from others than they do from themselves. In other words, it is alright if it is convenient for me, and it is not alright if it causes me inconvenience. Longsuffering is not an attribute that many people possess, even though it is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Speaking of the troops:
“They seemed upbeat, confident, and morally clear. Whatever explanation there might be, these men were a fascinating juxtapositon to the media and the congress.“

Today’s troops are professional soldiers who have chosen to do what they do and when they speak to congress or the media they will say what they have been told to say.
The exception would be a disgruntled soldier who wants out, or ones motive is to promote an opposing political position, in which case they are probably planning on leaving, because you do not speak negatives to anyone on the outside if you want to continue your career with any hope of promotion. There are also those who thrive on war;
There reason for living is to kill, these are very troubled people and anyone who has ever been exposed to combat has probably crossed paths with this type of individual.

A question MC, what would cause you to make the call of one being morally clear?

No brother, not a war protestor, for that would only be us operating out of being inconvenienced.

Yes brother, to walk in the Spirit with the Fruit of the Spirit fully evident in our lives, revealing Jesus Christ to all we come in contact with. Was Jesus considered a fanatic?
Then so shall it also be with us.

“If self-defense is wrong, then it is always wrong...and not just in the business of war, but also in the business of life.”

Brother, think about this: Is this not what Jesus taught in words and by example?
Was this not what the disciples, in obedience to the Lord, taught and lived that we all might follow their example. We cannot find one example where they were disobedient, should that not tell us what His Will is for all who love Him.
In all the scriptures where Jesus tells of their coming demise, not once does He instruct them to defend themselves, nor did He us.

How did they and how are we to defend:
Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This seems to be very clear and is the only true way to practice self-defense.

“I am among those roused by this war. Oh brother, in all I do, if only I would be roused by the Holy Spirit. And more then roused, more then yearning, and more then disciplined...but travailing until Christ be formed in me.”

2 Cor. 10:4
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Brother, if the weapons of our warfare are mighty through God, and they are, then it is not a problem for Him to pull down any stronghold that would hinder Christ being formed in us, as we hunger and thirst after righteousness and He is our Righteousness.

“Then peace will not be my conviction, but my character.”

Peace is our character if we are in Christ and He in us. He has given us His Peace.

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

“Not as the world giveth.” Praise His Holy Name, We have the peace that only the Prince of Peace can give.

Thank you brother MC and May the Lord give you the desire of your heart.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Thank you much for walking along with me here brother.

I've read through your post a couple of times, and would like to consider these things abit before touching base again.

I am grateful for your asking that the Lord would give me the desires of my heart. He is both the subject, the verb, and the object of the verb in that prayer. My heart is only the unworthy object... of His love.

Speaking of heart's, I do think we hurt our Lord's, when we allow hate and fear into the dwelling He has reserved exclusively for Himself.

Bless you sir,

MC

pastofrin wrote:

I have several questions for all who feel led to answer, please take some time to seek the Lord so we avoid simple opinions wrought out of emotion.

Why are we Christians against abortion? Because it is murder, the taking of a defenseless, unable to defend itself God given human life. This action causes untold gilt and years of not being able to forgive ones self, for some, forgiveness never comes.
We have spent billions of dollars and God only knows how many hours fighting for this horror to be stopped. When one looks at the untold suffering that this horrible crime causes, one wonders why it ever began. Why is it?

Now let me ask this, why do we send our men and women to war for what we say is to defend our freedom?

Hello brother, these questions reminded me of one quote by Ravenhill:

“Would we send our daughters off to have sex if it would benefit our country? Yet, we send our sons off to kill when we think it would benefit our country!”

Pastor wrote:

When one looks at the untold suffering that this horrible crime causes, one wonders why it ever began. Why is it?

I can answer this question. My answers come from having asked many AB minded clients this same question: why?

I have an education to complete.
It interferes with my sports scholarship if I would take time off to have a baby.
What would people say? My parents are heavily involved in ministry and this would tarnish their reputation. (From a single female.)
We - her DH and herself - cannot afford another child right now.
Just do not want a baby. Does not want to be a mother now or ever.
Inconvenient.
I am single and do not want a baby without a father to provide for us.
I do not like the father of my baby. (Yup, girls are hooking up with males they cannot hack!)

Why did it progress? Because some entrepreneurs saw an opportunity to make money! That is the only reason why it has progressed to the point where it has. If there would be no money to have been made from the procedure, it would not have become as popular.

Planned Parenthood has been involved in the sex education teaching in many schools. They tell kids how to prevent pregnancies while in the meantime telling them how to "do it". They know -as do we who have worked in the pro-life ministries - how kids are irresponcible in the consistent use of contraceptives which then increases the possibilities of pregnancies. No problem, says PPH: your school nurse will help you get an AB! And who profits? Planned Parenthood. Here is a link you may want to check out - I just saw this yesterday: http://www.mdn.org/2006/STORIES/SEXEDU.HTM

I discussed only the practical aspect of the results of sex education as practiced in American schools. The spiritual ramifications are apparent, I am sure to the readers on this forum...

There you have it. It no longer is a shame to have AB. It has lost its stigma. When shame is lost it opens the door to all kinds of wickedness. People have been deprived from moral guidelines that govern a civilized society. Since the legalization of AB you have a proliferation of all kinds of social ills: drug abuse, child abuse, divorce - you name it.

Yeah, brave new world, free from all social restraints...the freedom promised by the rebels only increases the bondage; it robs people of Peace which can only be had by following Jesus and doing things HIS way!

ginnyrose

Tears_of_Joy

Wrote:

Hello brother, these questions reminded me of one quote by Ravenhill: "Would we send our daughters off to have sex if it would our country? Yet, we send our sons off to kill when we think it would benefit our country!"

Brother Kire,

Brother Ravenhill was speaking a truth in more ways than one. We do have women we send to gather information from perceived enemies, and all means are used, including sex.

I guess we can say; we are sending our daughters to have sex for the benefit of the country, as well as sending both, sons and daughters to kill and be killed for the benefit of our country.
What a nation will do when their trust is not in the Lord.
Quite a convenient set-up for a population that seeks after the things of this world.

In His Love
pastorfrin

What a nation will do when their trust is not in the Lord.

Maybe so, but doesn't God masterfully use man's failures for his purposes - even to bring people to salvation?
------------

Recently my editor asked me to interview a married couple deployed to Afghanistan. He is going to be a supply tech at the Kandahar Base, and his wife is going to be policing the base, and also driving an 11 ton RG-31 mine-protected vehicle to the combat zones to pick up detainees.

For days after that interview I couldn’t stop thinking about them – especially her – an attractive young lady – offering herself like that for the sake of … well… I sensed that deep in her heart she really did not know why. Nor did he. Oh, sure, both of them said that they wanted to help bring a better life of the Afghan people. And yet, even [her own] comment about the reluctance of the Afghans to accept our “generous” offer, didn’t change their views. The many recent reports of military casualties did not weaken their resolve.

That interview had a profound effect on me. It tore me inside. I’ll never forget taking that lovely picture of them together in uniform on the bench under the tree, while my mind was screaming with the question: “Why?”

My conversation with the couple, as well as her parents exposed to me many influences, not all overtly expressed –ex: the need to please Dad, and live out HIS unfulfilled dreams ( he wished he could have gone), the need for adventure, for risk, for danger; the gratifying feeling of being a hero, a good person, helping a needy person, fulfilling child-hood fascinations in big machines, being like Uncle Bill, a strong soldier, wanting to avoid the mundane life of ordinary policing, wanting something more exciting, wanting to see the world, wanting to overcome fears and develop courage … etc. .

Days later something inside me said: “They need to go!” – even for their own sake. Maybe through their experience they will learn about themselves, and also start thinking more deeply about life, values, sin, evil, God, eternity – those issues that a comfortable predictable Canadian life is not inclined to push one towards.

Maybe God can use it all for his glory.

A war veteran once told me (in another interview) “There are no atheists in foxholes”.

Whatever it takes.... Yes?

Diane

Hi ginnyrose,

Wow, look at the parallels.

________________________________________
Quote:
I have an education to complete.
It interferes with my sports scholarship if I would take time off to have a baby.
What would people say? My parents are heavily involved in ministry and this would tarnish their reputation. (From a single female.)
We - her DH and herself - cannot afford another child right now.
Just do not want a baby. Does not want to be a mother now or ever.
Inconvenient.
I am single and do not want a baby without a father to provide for us.
I do not like the father of my baby. (Yup, girls are hooking up with males they cannot hack!)
______________________________________________

Abortion is a selfish act that is motivated by many not wanting to be inconvenienced.
War is a selfish act motivated by many not wanting to be inconvenienced.

________________________________________________
Quote:
"Why did it progress? Because some entrepreneurs saw an opportunity to make money! That is the only reason why it has progressed to the point where it has. If there would be no money to have been made from the procedure, it would not have become as popular."
_____________________________________________

Abortion is driven by an opportunity to make money and have power.
War is driven by an opportunity to make money and receive more power.
Both make enormous amounts of money from death and destruction.
_____________________________________________
Quote:
"it robs people of Peace which can only be had by following Jesus and doing things HIS way!"
_____________________________________________

Both are the enemies of peace and destroy innocent lives for their own convenience.

Isaiah 48:22
There is no peace, saith the Lord, unto the wicked.

Romans 3:17
And the way of peace have they not known:

I think you nailed it ginnyrose!

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

In His Love
pastorfrin

roadsign wrote:

What a nation will do when their trust is not in the Lord.

Maybe so, but doesn't God masterfully use man's failures for his purposes - even to bring people to salvation?
------------

Recently my editor asked me to interview a married couple deployed to Afghanistan. He is going to be a supply tech at the Kandahar Base, and his wife is going to be policing the base, and also driving an 11 ton RG-31 mine-protected vehicle to the combat zones to pick up detainees.

For days after that interview I couldn’t stop thinking about them – especially her – an attractive young lady – offering herself like that for the sake of … well… I sensed that deep in her heart she really did not know why. Nor did he. Oh, sure, both of them said that they wanted to help bring a better life of the Afghan people. And yet, even [her own] comment about the reluctance of the Afghans to accept our “generous” offer, didn’t change their views. The many recent reports of military casualties did not weaken their resolve.

That interview had a profound effect on me. It tore me inside. I’ll never forget taking that lovely picture of them together in uniform on the bench under the tree, while my mind was screaming with the question: “Why?”

My conversation with the couple, as well as her parents exposed to me many influences, not all overtly expressed –ex: the need to please Dad, and live out HIS unfulfilled dreams ( he wished he could have gone), the need for adventure, for risk, for danger; the gratifying feeling of being a hero, a good person, helping a needy person, fulfilling child-hood fascinations in big machines, being like Uncle Bill, a strong soldier, wanting to avoid the mundane life of ordinary policing, wanting something more exciting, wanting to see the world, wanting to overcome fears and develop courage … etc. .

Days later something inside me said: “They need to go!” – even for their own sake. Maybe through their experience they will learn about themselves, and also start thinking more deeply about life, values, sin, evil, God, eternity – those issues that a comfortable predictable Canadian life is not inclined to push one towards.

Maybe God can use it all for his glory.

A war veteran once told me (in another interview) “There are no atheists in foxholes”.

Whatever it takes.... Yes?

Diane

Sister Diane,

Thank you for sharing your experience of interviewing this couple with us. It is not easy to deal with the emotions stirred by such misguided needs.
I say misguided because I as well was led by wanting to be like my Dad, most all of my Uncles, and of course Audie Murphy. Each one served in WW2 and I could not wait for my turn to come, I was ready, I had watched every war movie ever made and was a hero in the making. What a lie from the pit of Hell and it is spread so innocently.
We were programmed by so many influences to go, without question, to war. While I was in High School, much time was spent in phys-ed, teaching us to march in formation, how to raise and lower the flag and of course to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. We were trained physically and mentally to be soldiers to such a degree that when I went to Boot Camp it was a cake walk. I had the Highest PT score of the entire Company and I was ready to save my country from the enemy.
All emotions with no moral fabric, the only time Jesus Christ was mentioned was using His name in vain.

Quote:
Days later something inside me said: “They need to go!” – even for their own sake. Maybe through their experience they will learn about themselves, and also start thinking more deeply about life, values, sin, evil, God, eternity – those issues that a comfortable predictable Canadian life is not inclined to push one towards.

Sister, this statement is troubling; it is wrought out of emotion and not from the teaching of Jesus Christ. How can we decide what the Lord will use to bring one to Him.

If this is the case: “They need to go!”- even for their own sake”;

If they need to go to find these things, then we all need to go or we will miss these things as well. Where does it end? Do we all go to war per chance we may find ourselves? Is the Holy Spirit not able to draw man unto Christ?
I understand how you feel but would this not be a better way?

If we would teach our children to love their enemies and not to render evil for evil but to pray for those who:

Matthew 5:43-44 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Then there would be no such thing as sending our children to war to find themselves their lives would be hid in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 3:8-12
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: [9] Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. [10] For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: [11] Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. [12] For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Quote: A war veteran once told me (in another interview) “There are no atheists in foxholes”.

This is another piece of misinformation based on emotion, there are many atheists in foxholes and just because one uses the name of God does not mean they know Him, many in fact have the idea they are god, for they have the weapon of life and death in their hand and some do not care whose life they take.

Quote: Whatever it takes.... Yes?

Think about it, what if it was one of yours and they gave their life for your country without Christ? Is your answer still Yes?

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 9:23-25
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. [24] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. [25] For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

In His Love
pastorfrin

Brothers and Sisters,

“Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Matthew 26:51-52
And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. [52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Ephes. 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Rev. 6:4
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Rev. 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The Greek word for sword in each of these:
machaira, Greek 3162, Strong’s
machaira, makh'-ahee-rah; probably feminine of a presumed derivative of Greek 3163 (mache); a knife, i.e. dirk; figurative war, judicial punishment :- sword.

This includes the sword of the Spirit-Eph. 6:17 and Heb. 4:12
The same word is used by Jesus above in Matt. 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Also in Rev. 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Now look at this:

Rev. 1:16
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Rev. 2:12
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

Rev. 2:16
Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev. 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Rev. 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev. 19:21
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The Greek word for sword in each of these:
rhomphaia, Greek 4501, Strong’s
rhomphaia, hrom-fah'-yah; probably of foreign origin; a sabre, i.e. a long and broad cutlass (any weapon of the kind, literal or figurative) :- sword.

We have in Rev. 1:6 and 2:12 a two-edged sword.

In Rev. 2:16 the sword of His mouth.

In Rev. 6:8 the sword of Death and Hell.

In Rev. 19:15 and 21 a sword out of His mouth.

Question:
Which sword, will all those who take the sword and he that killeth with the sword
Perish, be killed by?

Have we missed what Jesus was saying?

If Jesus was talking about a physical sword then, All who take up the sword and All those who have killed with the sword, would physically die, perish with a literal sword.

He must then be talking about a spiritual sword which is the sword out of His mouth, the sword of the Spirit.

If this is the case, then Jesus really meant what he said to Peter:

Matthew 26:51-52
And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. [52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

To every man who would save his life:

Luke 9:23-24
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. [24] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

He that killeth with the sword:

Rev. 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

It takes a lot of patience to trust in the Will of the Lord.

What think ye?

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi, Pastorfrin, I wonder if I am looking at this a bit differently from you.

Do we all go to war per chance we may find ourselves? Is the Holy Spirit not able to draw man unto Christ?

Does God not at times let people do what they are bent on doing – simply because they will not learn the futility of their ways except by experiencing the sad outcome for themselves. (the Prodigal son for example) I would have liked to protect this young couple from placing them selves at risk, but even if I had the power to stop them, could that take away their longings, or their allusions? Could that have made them aware of their need for the Lord?

I understand how you feel but would this not be a better way?

I can’t stop war, but I can pray that God work among those involved – to draw them to himself – he who gives peace through the blood of Christ.
Diane

Hi Diane,

Thank you for your response and the issues you bring up.

Hi, Pastorfrin, I wonder if I am looking at this a bit differently from you.

I don’t, of course you are and that is a good thing for it inspires us to discussion.

I don’t know what the Spirit is doing amongst those on the battle field. I’ve heard a few stories of salvations during close-calls, and wouldn’t put it past God to do so today.

Sister we will rejoice with the angels in heaven over a soul coming into the kingdom no matter how it transpires. Yes, God is able.

Does God not at times let people do what they are bent on doing – simply because they will not learn the futility of their ways except by experiencing the sad outcome for themselves. (the Prodigal son for example) I would have liked to protect this young couple from placing them selves at risk, but even if I had the power to stop them, could that take away their longings, or their allusions? Could that have made them aware of their need for the Lord?

Yes sister, you are right, we cannot make choices for others for we all must experience life for ourselves. It breaks my heart at times to see where so many are going and how much hurt they would be spared if they would only listen, but…

Quote:
“For days after that interview I couldn’t stop thinking about them – especially her – an attractive young lady – offering herself like that for the sake of … well… I sensed that deep in her heart she really did not know why.”

I could not help but think of this statement today as I was listening to PBS about women in the military. PTSD among women is much higher then men. They stated that on any given day in America, there are 200,000 homeless veterans and 12% of these are women.
Suicide, divorce, abuse, adultery, alcohol and drug abuse, and mental illness are all higher in combat veterans. It is hard for a man to come home and have a child who was very young when he left not remember him; but when this happens to a woman it breaks their heart.
There are so many pitfalls for couples separated by the military and it leads many, to many, down the road of unhappy endings. Absence does not make the heart grow fonder.

If only we could make the lost see that there is a better way just by reasoning with them! But we don’t live in the ideal world where unbelievers readily put their faith in Christ - especially when life is working for them.

This is what saddens me, how soon life may not be working for them and what seemed to be the beginning of an exciting adventure soon becomes a world of unrelenting torment.

Have you ever had that sick, empty, hollow, hate yourself, tormenting feeling inside of you and nothing man has to offer makes it go away? All the promises made to our veterans that we will take care of you, are lies, they are empty promises; because man cannot help this problem, only the Son can set one free from the Hell that makes its home in so many of these poor souls.

I can’t stop war, but I can pray that God work among those involved – to draw them to himself – he who gives peace through the blood of Christ.

You are right we cannot, but He can and will; until that time we can continue to point all to Him and to the peace that only He can give; and yes sister Diane, we can pray, we can pray,

“Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.”

In His Love
pastorfrin

Brothers and Sisters,

If Jesus said this, and I believe he did!
Matthew 28:18-20

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Do you believe the spoken word of Jesus Christ?
Then why is this scripture ignored?

Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Is this not one of ‘all’ things that Jesus commanded the disciples to teach all who believe?

All who are in Christ have been sent forth as sheep into the midst of wolves.
We are thus warned, we are to be as sheep and we are to take that into consideration; count the cost, if you do not want to be a sheep then you can be a goat. He did not call you to be a goat, you choose to be one.
If you choose, after counting the cost, to be a sheep, then you will be; wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
Neither sheep nor doves return evil for evil nor do they live by the sword of man.
Why? We are His sheep and we only listen to and obey His voice. We follow Him.

John 10:4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Do you hear His voice?

John 18:36-37
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. [37] Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

I pray everyday that all will hear His voice and receive His Peace. His sheep, wise as serpents, and harmless as doves!

In His Love
pastorfrin

Have you read of Brother Roger of Taize,
a survivor of WW1 who was taught by his
parents to overcome evil with good. When
WWII begun, he helped Rauol Wallenberg
bring Jews to safety in Switzerland.
After the War, Brother Roger knew only the
compassion of Christ could heal the enmity
and strife of war. he started a community
based on brotherhood, compassion, liberty,
and peace. Here is a quote from Brother
Roger: "If the love that forgives us becomes
a flame burning within us; if compassion
were the cause of everything--then all
around us would shine with a gospel radiance-
and these words would be illuminated from
within: 'Love, and say it with your life!' "

Hi sojouner7,

sojourner7 wrote:
Have you read of Brother Roger of Taize,
a survivor of WW1 who was taught by his
parents to overcome evil with good. When
WWII begun, he helped Rauol Wallenberg
bring Jews to safety in Switzerland.
After the War, Brother Roger knew only the
compassion of Christ could heal the enmity
and strife of war. he started a community
based on brotherhood, compassion, liberty,
and peace. Here is a quote from Brother
Roger: "If the love that forgives us becomes
a flame burning within us; if compassion
were the cause of everything--then all
around us would shine with a gospel radiance-
and these words would be illuminated from
within: 'Love, and say it with your life!' "

"If the love that forgives us becomes
a flame burning within us; if compassion
were the cause of everything--then all
around us would shine with a gospel radiance-
and these words would be illuminated from
within: 'Love, and say it with your life!' "

Is this not the 'love' that cost Jesus and most of the disciples their lives? This same love is to be in us if we are His and we to should; Yes sojouner7, say it with our lives!
Thank You
In His Love
pastorfrin

The ungodly cost of what man calls peace. Why? To keep our possessions and to avoid persecution?

Matthew 6:19-21
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: [20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: [21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

2 Tim. 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

What was that reason, again?

BBC NEWS
"US veterans 'high suicide risk'
US war veterans are twice as likely to kill themselves as ordinary civilians, a study following 320,890 men found.
Researchers compared data between non-veterans and those who had served at some point between 1917 and 1994.
Men who were white, better educated and older than the other men appeared to be at higher risk, as did those with a physical or emotional disability.
Researchers say the findings emphasise the need for mental health care for those serving in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The research, published in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health, included men who had served in World War II, the Vietnam war, the Korean War and the Gulf war.
'Inadequate screening'
It said the rate of suicide among men who had taken military service was 2.13 times higher than those who had never served in the armed forces.
War veterans were also twice as likely to use a firearm to kill themselves, it said.
Disabled veterans, or those who had experienced emotional or psychological trauma during their service were identified as the highest risk group.
Interestingly, overweight veterans were less likely to have killed themselves than those of normal weight, the study found.
Although the research did not include data from men returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, authors said the findings had strong implications for them.
Lead researcher Mark Kaplan, of Portland State University in Oregon, said doctors should "scrutinise veterans for signs of suicidal behaviour or thoughts and, if needed, they should intervene to make sure these patients do not have access to firearms".
He said in general "there is inadequate mental health screening, and many of the doctors outside the VA (Veterans Affairs) system are not trained to deal with these sorts of problems and don't have the time to treat them".

Brothers and Sisters,

What ‘did’ Jesus mean when He said this?

Matthew 26:51-52
And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. [52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Now compare what was said above with what he said in John 18:36.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

One more time in Rev. 13

Rev. 13:9-10
If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

“Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”

What is He telling those who are His?

What does He mean?

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hey all,

I can't say I've followed this thread, however I just wanted to post my thoughts.

We, as Christians, are not in this world or of this world. We are looking for a city who's builder and maker is God. We are seperated from this world...

That being said, I am against wars and joining the military for several reasons. The first:

1. God created life in all kinds of ways, he should be the only one to take it away. Every person has a soul. It's not in our power whether or not to take a person's life away before his or her time. Hell is far too bad of a place to send someone before they've had all their allotted time to seek God to not go there.

The second:

2. This world will pass away. All of it. Every nation in it will also. Why would we risk our lives for a purpose that will be brought to nought? I am convinced that I am no longer a citizen of the USA... I'm a citizen of the Kingdom of God. For the sake of peace and so forth, I pay taxes. I don't even vote... because God sets up and takes down the rulers. I refuse to fight against or for a country that has no future. I refuse to get really high into... say, a "star trek" club, or club for the collecting of antique marbles... what would that avail me? Those things are pointless, and will pass away. My job, as a minister and a Christian (and every Christian is a minister of some sort) is to serve God, save souls, pray, worship... etc.

The Bible specifically says "No man that warreth entangleth himself in the affairs of this life" (2Tim2:4). That says it all. Either you are a soldier for God, or you are a soldier for the world... either you are spiritually fighting for God's purposes, or you are physically fighting to establish the purposes of whoever is ordering you around.

Hope this helps someone.

Jarrod

Hi Jarrod,
Thank you for addition to this thread.

No we are not of this world and Jesus makes it very clear. Since we are not why do the majority continue to cling to it as though it (the world) will somehow save them?

The Bible specifically says "No man that warreth entangleth himself in the affairs of this life" (2Tim2:4). That says it all. Either you are a soldier for God, or you are a soldier for the world... either you are spiritually fighting for God's purposes, or you are physically fighting to establish the purposes of whoever is ordering you around.

I have always wondered how a Christian can square using the sword to take life, with the Fruit of the Spirit we are commanded to walk in so we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:13-26
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. [14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [15] But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. [16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. [17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. [18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. [26] Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

There is only one way the sword can be placed into the hands of a child of God and that would be for them to ignore the Holy Spirit and to be controlled by the flesh.

“They which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
What things, all the works of the flesh.

Compare with; They that are Christ's:

Gal. 5:24-25
“And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal. 5
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

You are either cursed or blessed.

Jeremiah 17:5-10
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. [6] For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. [7] Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. [8] For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? [10] I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

It comes down to this; is your trust in the sword, man, you are cursed.

Is your trust in the Lord; you shall not cease from yielding fruit.

We all must choose for ourselves. Is life on this earth worth losing your soul?
No, then we must place our trust in the Lord.

“Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.”

In His Love
pastorfrin

I'm not very long winded, but I find this scripture as a great add-on to your post:

"He who seeks to save his life shall lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake shall save it".

That's firing off from memory, could be a tad misquoted... but I find it essentially the same :)

Jarrod

Hi Jarrod,

Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Yes, Jesus makes it very clear what the cost of following Him entails.
Paul has something to say about the subject as well in Romans 8.

Romans 8:35-37
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. [37] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

How do we square using the sword to spread the gospel, or set people free from tyranny, or to keep our own freedom and worldly goods, when the word is clear?

“As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

For whose sake are we killed all the day long? For whose sake are we accounted as sheep for the slaughter?
For Jesus Christ sake, the one who lived and gave His life for us, leaving us an example to follow.
Does this sound like those who are running around killing and being killed for the things of this world?

“Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.”

Not because we take up the sword, what makes us more than a conqueror is that we do not.
In all these things we give ourselves to the will of God and in all these things we are more than conquerors, Why?

Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Now how can anyone but a child of the King understand how you can be more than a conqueror by being killed all the day long, and being accounted as sheep for the slaughter?

But We Are!

In His Love
pastorfrin

pastorfrin wrote:
Brothers and Sisters,

What ‘did’ Jesus mean when He said this?

Matthew 26:51-52
And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. [52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Now compare what was said above with what he said in John 18:36.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

One more time in Rev. 13

Rev. 13:9-10
If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

“Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”

What is He telling those who are His?

What does He mean?

In His Love
pastorfrin

What is He telling those who are His?

What does He mean?

The War Prayer

by Mark Twain

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came – next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams – visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation:

God the all-terrible!
Thou who ordainest!
Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory…

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside – which the startled minister did – and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne – bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import – that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of – except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two – one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this – keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer – the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it – that part which the pastor – and also you in your hearts – fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory – must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near them! With them – in spirit – we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him who is the Source of Love, and who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(After a pause) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
_______________________________________________

Thus it is to this very day. Know ye, what your heart ask in the name of the Lord?
For "the messenger of the Most High waits!"
For God so loves and we so hate, our prayers tell Him so.

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 1\t

________________________________________

Humanity, wisdom, and goodness at once combine all that can be great and lovely in man. Inhumanity, folly, and wickedness reverse the picture, and at once represent all that can be odious and hateful. The former is the spirit of Heaven, and the latter the offspring of hell. The spirit of the gospel not only breathes “glory to God in the highest, but on earth peace, and good will to men.” The wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated; but the wisdom from beneath is earthly, sensual, and devilish.
It is exceedingly strange that anyone under the light of the gospel, professing to be guided by its blessed precepts, with the Bible in his hand, while the whole creation around him is so often groaning under the weight and terrors of war, should have doubts whether any kind of wars under the gospel dispensation, except spiritual warfare, can be the dictate of any kind of wisdom except that from beneath; and much more so, to believe that they are the fruit of the Divine Spirit, which is love, joy, and peace.
An inspired apostle has informed us from whence come wars and fighting. They come from the lusts of men that war in their members. Ever since the fall, mankind has had naturally within it a spirit of pride, avarice, and revenge. The gospel is directly opposed to this spirit. It teaches humility, it inculcates love, it breathes pity and forgiveness even to enemies, and forbids rendering evil for evil to any man.
Believing as I do, after much reflection and, as I trust, prayerful investigation of the subject, that all kinds of carnal warfare are unlawful upon gospel principles, I shall now endeavor to prove that war is INHUMAN, UNWISE, and CRIMINAL, and then make some general remarks, and state and answer several objections. In attempting to do this I shall not always confine myself strictly to this order of the subject, but shall occasionally make such remarks as may occur, directly or indirectly, to show that the whole genius of war is contrary to the spirit and precepts of the gospel.

________________________________________

WAR IS INHUMAN

1. Because it hardens the heart and blunts
the tender feelings of mankind

That it is the duty of mankind to be tender-hearted, feeling for the distress of others, and to do all in its power to prevent and alleviate their misery, is evident not only from the example of the Son of God but the precepts of the gospel.
When the Savior of sinners visited this dark and cruel world, he became a man of sorrow and was acquainted with grief, so that he was touched with the feeling of our infirmities. He went about continually healing the sick, opening the eyes of the blind, unstopping the ears of the deaf, and raising the dead, as well as preaching the gospel of peace to the poor. He visited the houses of affliction and poured the balm of consolation into the wounded heart. He mourned with those who mourned, and wept with those who wept. Love to God and man flowed from his soul pure as the river of life, refreshing the thirsty desert around him. He was not only affectionate to his friends, but also kind to his enemies. He returned love for their hatred, and blessing for their cursing. When he was surrounded by all the powers of darkness and resigned himself into the hands of sinners to expiate their guilt, and they smote him on the cheek and plucked off the hair, he “was dumb and opened not his mouth.” While suffering all the contempt and torture which men and devils could invent, instead of returning evil for evil he prayed for his murderers and apologized for his persecutors, saying, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
The apostle exhorts Christians, saying, “Be ye kind and tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.”
Authority in abundance might be quoted to show that the spirit of the gospel absolutely requires the exercise of love, pity, and forgiveness, even to enemies.
But who will undertake to prove that soldiers are usually kind and tender-hearted, and that their employment has a natural tendency to promote active benevolence, while it requires all their study of mind and strength of body to injure their enemies to the greatest extent?
Though we often hear of the generosity and attention of soldiers to prisoners, and notwithstanding I am willing to allow that feelings of humanity are not altogether obliterated from every soldier, yet much of this apparent kindness may flow from a desire of better treatment themselves should circumstances be reversed, or from a hope of the applause of mankind. My object, however, is not to prove that all soldiers are destitute of humanity, but that their occupation has a natural tendency and actually does weaken their kind and tender feelings, and harden their hearts.
Is it not a fact that those who are engaged in the spirit of war, either in the council or in the field, are not usually so meek, lowly, kind, and tender-hearted as other men? Does the soldier usually become kind and tender-hearted while trained to the art of killing his fellow-man, or more so when engaged in the heat of the battle, stepping forward over the wounded and hearing the groans of the expiring? Does he actually put on a heart of tenderness, mercy, and forgiveness, while he bathes his sword in the blood of his brother? Do these scenes generally change the lion into the lamb? On the contrary, don’t the history of ages and the voice of millions bear testimony that the whole trade of war has a natural tendency to blunt the tender edge of mercy and chill all the sympathizing feelings of the human heart? Who that is a parent, having an uncommonly hard-hearted and unfeeling son, would send him into the camp to subdue his inhumanity and to stamp upon him kind and tender feelings? If war does not have a natural tendency to harden the heart, permit me to inquire why mankind does not usually feel as much at the distress occasioned by war as by other calamities?
It would be truly astonishing, were it not so common, to see with what composure most of mankind hears the account of barbarous and destructive battles. They may have some little excitement when they hear of savages – whose religion teaches them revenge – using the tomahawk and scalping knife; but when thousands are torn to pieces with shot and shells and butchered with polished steels, then it becomes a very polite and civil business, and those who perish are contemplated as only reclining on a bed of honor. If an individual in common life breaks a bone or fractures a limb, all around him not only sympathize but are ready to aid in alleviating his distress; but when thousands are slain and ten thousand wounded in the field of battle, the shock is but trifling, and the feelings are soon lost in admiring the gallantry of this hero and the prowess of that veteran. And why is there all this sensibility at the pains of an individual, and all this indifference at the sufferings of thousands, if war does not have a natural tendency to harden the heart and destroy the tender feelings of mankind?
It is a fact, however, so notorious, that the spirit and practice of war do actually harden the heart and chill the kind and tender feelings of mankind, that I think few will be found to deny it, and none will deny it who have ever known or felt the spirit of Christ.
The spirit of war must be very unlike the spirit of the gospel, for the gospel enforces no duty the practice of which has a natural tendency to harden men’s hearts, but in proportion as they are influenced by its spirit and actuated by its principles they will be humane; therefore, if war hardens men’s hearts it is not a Christian duty, and of course it cannot be right for Christians to engage in it.

To Be Continued:

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 1\t

WAR IS INHUMAN

2. War is inhuman, as in its nature and tendency
it abuses God’s animal creation

When God at first created man, he gave him authority over the beasts of the field, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the deep. After he had swept away the old ungodly world of mankind for its violence with all the animal creation, except those in the ark, he was pleased to renew to Noah the same privilege of being lord over the animal world.
It may not perhaps be improper here to digress a little and remark that this appears to have been the original bounds of man’s authority – that of having dominion only over the animal world and not over his fellow-man. It appears that God reserved to himself the government of man, whom he originally created in his own image; from which it may be inferred that man has no lawful authority for governing his fellow-man, except as the special executor of divine command, and that no government can be morally right except that which acknowledges and looks up to God as the supreme head and governor.
But to return: although the animal world is put under the dominion of man for his use, yet he has no authority to exercise cruelty towards it. “For the merciful man regardeth the life of his beast.” God is very merciful to his creatures; he not only hears the young ravens when they cry but he opens his hand and supplies the wants of the cattle upon a thousand hills.
Though God has decorated the earth with beauty and richly clothed it with food for man and beast, yet where an all-devouring army passes, notwithstanding the earth before them is like the garden of Eden, it is behind them a desolate wilderness; the lowing ox and bleating sheep may cry for food, but, alas! “The destroyer hath destroyed it.”
The noble horse, which God has made for the use and pleasure of man, shares largely in this desolating evil. He is often taken, without his customary food, to run with an express, until, exhausted by fatigue, he falls lifeless beneath his rider. Multitudes of them are chained to the harness with scanty food, and goaded forward to drag the baggage of an army and the thundering engines of death, until their strength has failed, their breath exhausted, and the kindness they then receive is the lash of the whip or the point of a spear. In such scenes the comfort of beasts is not thought of, except by a selfish owner who fears the loss of his property.
But all this is trifling compared with what these noble animals, which tamely bow to the yoke of man, suffer in the charge of the battle; the horse rushes into the combat not knowing that torture and death are before him. His sides are often perforated with the spur of his rider, notwithstanding he exerts all his strength to rush into the heat of the battle, while the strokes of the sabers and the wounds of the bullets lacerate his body, and instead of having God’s pure air to breathe to alleviate his pains, he can only snuff up the dust of his feet and the sulphurous smoke of the cannon, emblem of the infernal abode. Thus he has no ease for his pains unless God commissions the bayonet or the bullet to take away his life.
But if such is the cruelty to beasts in prosecuting war, what is the cruelty to man, born for immortality? It is no wonder that those who feel so little for their fellow men should feel less for beasts. If war is an inhuman and cruel employment, it must be wrong for Christians to engage in it.

3. War is inhuman, as it oppresses the poor

To oppress the poor is everywhere in the Scriptures considered as a great sin. “For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord.” “Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself and not be heard.” “‘What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor?’ saith the Lord God of hosts.”
The threats against those who oppress the poor, and the blessings pronounced upon those who pleadtheir cause, are very numerous in the Scriptures. The threats are so tremendous and awful that all men ought to consider well before they are active in any step that has a natural tendency to oppress the poor and needy.
That war actually does oppress the poor may be heard from ten thousand wretched tongues that have felt its woe. Very few, comparatively, who are instigators of war actually take the field of battle, and are seldom seen in the front of the fire. It is usually those who are rioting on the labors of the poor that fan up the flame of war. The great majority of soldiers are generally from the poor of a country. They must gird on the harness and for a few cents per day endure all the hardships of a camp and be led forward like sheep to the slaughter. Though multitudes are bewitched to enlist by the intoxicating cup, the glitter of arms, the vainglory of heroes, and the empty sound of patriotism, yet many more are called away contrary to their wishes by the iron hand of despotic laws. Perhaps a parent is enrolled whose daily labor was hardly sufficient to supply a scanty pittance for numerous offspring, who are in his absence crying for bread. And why is there all this sorrow in this poor and needy family? Because the husband and father is gone, and probably gone forever, most likely to gratify the wishes of some ambitious men who care as little as they think of his anxious family. Perhaps an only son is taken from old, decrepit parents, the only earthly prop of their declining years; and with cold poverty and sorrow their gray hairs are brought down to the dust.
War cannot be prosecuted without enormous expenses. The money that has been expended the last twenty years in war would doubtless have been sufficient not only to have rendered every poor person on earth comfortable – so far as money could do it – during the same period, but, if the residue had been applied to cultivate the earth, it would have literally turned the desert into a fruitful field. Only the interest of the money that has been expended in a few years by the European nations in prosecuting war would have been sufficient, under proper direction, to educate every poor child on earth in the common rudiments of learning, and to support missionaries in abundance to convey the gospel of peace to every creature. What a noble employment, if those nations had exerted their powers for these objects as much as they have for injuring each other! And what a difference would have appeared in the world! Blessings would have fallen on millions ready to perish, instead of desolation, terror, and death.
The vast expenses of war must be met by corresponding taxes, whether by duties on merchandise or direct taxes on real estate; yet they fall most heavily on the poor. Whatever duty the merchant pays to the customhouse, he adds the amount to the price of his goods, so that the consumer actually pays the tax. If a tax is levied on real estate, the product of that estate is raised to meet it, and whoever consumes the product pays the tax. In times of war, the prices of the necessaries of life are generally very much increased, but the prices of the labor of the poor do not usually rise in the same proportion, therefore it falls very heavily on them. When the honest laborers are suddenly called from the plow to take the sword and leave the tilling of the ground, either its seed is but sparingly sown or its fruit but partially gathered, scarcity ensues, high prices are the consequence, and the difficulty greatly increased for the poor to obtain the necessaries of life, especially if they were dependent on the product of a scanty farm which they are now deprived of cultivating. Many a poor widow, who has been able in times of peace to support her fatherless children, has been obliged in times of war in a great measure to depend on the cold hand of charity to supply their wants.
The calamities of war necessarily fall more on the poor than on the rich, because the poor of a country are generally a large majority of its inhabitants.
These are some of the evils of war at a distance, but when it comes to their doors, if they are favored personally to escape the ferocity of the soldiers, they fly from their habitations, leaving their little all to the fire and pillage, glad to escape with their lives, though destitute and dependent; and when they cast round their eyes for relief, they only meet a fellow-sufferer, who can sympathize with them but not supply their wants. Thus does war not only oppress the poor, but it also adds multitudes to their number who before were comfortable.
If war actually does oppress the poor, then we may infer that in its nature and tendency it is very unlike the genius of the gospel, and not right for Christians to engage in it.

Continued:

“Shall I enter the Army?”
Moody said, “No.”

Published by Christian Printing Mission

The nineteenth century witnessed the greatest advance the Christian church had ever known. Missions, education and evangelism flourished and prospered. Great names emerged: Livingstone, Spurgeon, Booth, Finney, and Brooks. No name, however, loomed more mightily than that of Dwight L. Moody. From the depths of his great faith flowed a torrent of saving and cleansing triumphs. When he died in 1899, the greatest monuments to his Divine labors were thousands of human beings in Europe and America who had experienced spiritual rebirth as a result of his God-inspired power.

Yet, it is a curious fact that with all this ongoing publicity, the story of Dwight L. Moody as a nonresistant Christian is almost unknown. A careful reading of the official, authorized biography of the great evangelist written by his son, William R. Moody, reveals the full story.

Dwight L. Moody was a young man of 24, living in Chicago when the firing on Fort Sumter launched the tragic Civil War. Like all large cities, Chicago felt the excitement of this struggle; near the southern limits of the city Camp Douglas was started for the massing and instruction of recruits. Some of his own converts were among those who enlisted. Moreover, “a company was also raised among his friends and former associates in business, and on all sides he was urged to enter the service of his country.”

His son points out that the cause of the Union appealed to the youthful Moody very strongly. For he had been an ardent abolitionist, having listened to the powerful oratory of men like William Lloyd Garrison, Wendell Philips and Elijah P. Lovejoy. More amazing, his biographer-son records, were the public demonstrations against slavery in which he had joined.

But, in spite of all these heavy pressures toward the war, Dwight L. Moody could not enlist. Read his own words on the matter: “There has never been a time in my life when I felt I could take a gun and shoot down a fellow being. In this respect I am a Quaker.” Precisely! This was the identical attitude of the Quakers, Mennonites and Dunkards in the Civil War: Anti-slavery, pro-Union but faithful to the commandment of Jesus Christ to...“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you” (Matt. 5:44).

This conviction was maintained in his personal life. Once Moody was the silent spectator to a rather violent argument. To a friend he commented, “Mac, the world is in great need of peacemakers.”

This conviction was also manifested in his preaching. One of his most famous sermons was called, “Good News”. This tremendous message contains a famous passage which plumbs the very depths of forgiveness as taught by our Lord. Moody quotes Christ’s famous farewell charge to His disciples: “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” The imagination of the preacher is brought to the sermon. He imagines Peter saying, “Lord, do you really mean that we shall preach the gospel to every creature?” The answer is “Yes.” Then Peter asks, “Shall we go back to those Jerusalem sinners who murdered you?” “Yes, Peter, go back there and tarry until you have been endued with power from on high. Offer the Gospel to them first.

“Go search the man who spat on my face; tell him I forgive him; there is nothing in my heart but love for him. Go search out the man who put that cruel crown of thorns on my brow; tell him that I will have a crown ready for him in my kingdom, if he will accept salvation; there shall not be thorns in it, and he shall wear it forever and ever in the Kingdom of the Redeemer.

“Find out that man who took the reed from my hand and smote my head, driving the thorns deeper into my brow. If he will accept salvation as a gift, I will give him a scepter, and he shall have sway over the nations of the earth. Yes, I will give him to sit with me on my throne.

“Go seek that man who struck me with the palm of his hand; find him, and preach the gospel to him; tell him that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin and my blood was shed for him freely.

“Go seek that soldier who drove the spear into my side; tell him there is a nearer way to my heart than that. Tell him that I forgive him freely; and tell him I will make him a soldier of the cross and my banner over him shall be love.”

Here Dwight L. Moody has created a stirring picture of the Prince of Peace and His utter willingness to forgive seventy times seven; His compassionate love for those who do Him evil. This is the source of all true nonresistant testimony. Let us pray that God will raise up more true apostles of God’s redeeming love like Dwight L. Moody.

Thanks Jeff, this article is a wonderful addition to the thread.

Quote:

by rookie on 2007/8/23 2:46:50

“Shall I enter the Army?”
Moody said, “No.”

Published by Christian Printing Mission

The nineteenth century witnessed the greatest advance the Christian church had ever known. Missions, education and evangelism flourished and prospered. Great names emerged: Livingstone, Spurgeon, Booth, Finney, and Brooks. No name, however, loomed more mightily than that of Dwight L. Moody. From the depths of his great faith flowed a torrent of saving and cleansing triumphs. When he died in 1899, the greatest monuments to his Divine labors were thousands of human beings in Europe and America who had experienced spiritual rebirth as a result of his God-inspired power.

Yet, it is a curious fact that with all this ongoing publicity, the story of Dwight L. Moody as a nonresistant Christian is almost unknown. A careful reading of the official, authorized biography of the great evangelist written by his son, William R. Moody, reveals the full story.

Dwight L. Moody was a young man of 24, living in Chicago when the firing on Fort Sumter launched the tragic Civil War. Like all large cities, Chicago felt the excitement of this struggle; near the southern limits of the city Camp Douglas was started for the massing and instruction of recruits. Some of his own converts were among those who enlisted. Moreover, “a company was also raised among his friends and former associates in business, and on all sides he was urged to enter the service of his country.”

His son points out that the cause of the Union appealed to the youthful Moody very strongly. For he had been an ardent abolitionist, having listened to the powerful oratory of men like William Lloyd Garrison, Wendell Philips and Elijah P. Lovejoy. More amazing, his biographer-son records, were the public demonstrations against slavery in which he had joined.

But, in spite of all these heavy pressures toward the war, Dwight L. Moody could not enlist. Read his own words on the matter: “There has never been a time in my life when I felt I could take a gun and shoot down a fellow being. In this respect I am a Quaker.” Precisely! This was the identical attitude of the Quakers, Mennonites and Dunkards in the Civil War: Anti-slavery, pro-Union but faithful to the commandment of Jesus Christ to...“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you” (Matt. 5:44).

This conviction was maintained in his personal life. Once Moody was the silent spectator to a rather violent argument. To a friend he commented, “Mac, the world is in great need of peacemakers.”

This conviction was also manifested in his preaching. One of his most famous sermons was called, “Good News”. This tremendous message contains a famous passage which plumbs the very depths of forgiveness as taught by our Lord. Moody quotes Christ’s famous farewell charge to His disciples: “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” The imagination of the preacher is brought to the sermon. He imagines Peter saying, “Lord, do you really mean that we shall preach the gospel to every creature?” The answer is “Yes.” Then Peter asks, “Shall we go back to those Jerusalem sinners who murdered you?” “Yes, Peter, go back there and tarry until you have been endued with power from on high. Offer the Gospel to them first.

“Go search the man who spat on my face; tell him I forgive him; there is nothing in my heart but love for him. Go search out the man who put that cruel crown of thorns on my brow; tell him that I will have a crown ready for him in my kingdom, if he will accept salvation; there shall not be thorns in it, and he shall wear it forever and ever in the Kingdom of the Redeemer.

“Find out that man who took the reed from my hand and smote my head, driving the thorns deeper into my brow. If he will accept salvation as a gift, I will give him a scepter, and he shall have sway over the nations of the earth. Yes, I will give him to sit with me on my throne.

“Go seek that man who struck me with the palm of his hand; find him, and preach the gospel to him; tell him that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin and my blood was shed for him freely.

“Go seek that soldier who drove the spear into my side; tell him there is a nearer way to my heart than that. Tell him that I forgive him freely; and tell him I will make him a soldier of the cross and my banner over him shall be love.”

Here Dwight L. Moody has created a stirring picture of the Prince of Peace and His utter willingness to forgive seventy times seven; His compassionate love for those who do Him evil. This is the source of all true nonresistant testimony. Let us pray that God will raise up more true apostles of God’s redeeming love like Dwight L. Moody.

________________________________________________

Is it not amazing that all these great men of the nineteenth century, Moody being one of the greatest, teaching and living the example given by Jesus Christ on non-resistance; refusing to compromise for any reason the God given gift of life, and not a single one was a ‘hippie’, not even Dwight L. Moody.

In His Love
pastorfrin

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 1\t

WAR IS INHUMAN

4. War is inhuman, as it spreads terror
and distress among mankind

In the benign reign of the Messiah, the earth will be filled with the abundance of peace; there will be nothing to hurt or destroy; everyone will sit quietly under his own vine and fig tree, having nothing to molest him or make him afraid. But in times of war, mankind is usually full of anxiety; people’s hearts failing them for fear, looking for those things that are coming upon our wicked world.
One of the most delightful scenes on earth is a happy family in which all the members dwell together in love, being influenced by the blessed precepts of the gospel of peace. But how soon does the sound of war disturb and distress the happy circle! If it is only the distant thunder of the cannon that salutes the ear, the mother starts from her repose, and all the children gather round her with looks full of anxiety to know the cause. Few women can so command their feelings as to hide the cause; and let it be said to the honor of the female sex that they have generally tender feelings, which cannot easily be disguised at the distress of their fellow-beings. Perhaps a mother’s heart is wrung with anguish in the prospect that either the partner of her life or the sons of her care and sorrow, or both, are about to be called into the bloody field of battle. Perhaps the decrepit parent views his darling son leaving his peaceful abode to enter the ensanguined field, never more to return. How soon are these joyful little circles turned into mourning and sorrow!
Who can describe the distress of a happy village suddenly encompassed by two contending armies – perhaps so early and suddenly that its inhabitants are aroused from their peaceful slumbers by the confused noise of the warriors, more ferocious than the beasts that prowl in the forest? Were it not for the tumult of the battle, shrieks of distress from innocent women and children might be heard from almost every abode. Children run to the arms of their distracted mothers, who are as unable to find a refuge for themselves as for their offspring. If they fly to the streets they are in the midst of death: hundreds of cannon are vomiting destruction in every quarter; the hoofs of horses trampling down everything in their way; bullets, stones, bricks, and splinters flying in every direction; houses pierced with cannon shot and shells which carry desolation in their course; outside, multitudes of men rushing with deadly weapons upon each other with all the rage of tigers, plunging each other into eternity, until the streets are literally drenched with the blood of men. To increase the distress, the village is taken and retaken several times at the point of the bayonet. If the inhabitants fly to their cellars to escape the fury of the storm, their buildings may soon be wrapped in flames over their heads.
And for what, it may be asked, is all this inhuman sacrifice made? Probably to gain the empty bubble called honor – a standard of right and wrong without form or dimensions. Let no one say that the writer’s imagination is heated while it is not in the power of his feeble pen to half describe the horror and distress of the scenes, which are by no means uncommon in a state of war.
If such are some of the effects of war, then it must be a very inhuman employment, and wrong for Christians to engage in it.

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 1\t

WAR IS INHUMAN

5. War is inhuman, as it involves men in fatigue,
famine, and all the pains of mutilated bodies

To describe the fatigues and hardships of a soldier’s life would require the experience of a soldier, so that only some of their common sufferings can be touched upon by a person who is a stranger to the miseries of a camp.
A great majority of those who enter the ranks of an army are persons unaccustomed to great privations and severe fatigues; hence the great proportion of mortality among fresh recruits. Their habits and strength are unable to endure the hard fare, and the rapid and constant marches generally imposed upon them in active service.
The young soldier commonly exchanges a wholesome table, a comfortable dwelling, and an easy bed for bad food, the field for his house, the cold earth for his bed, and the heavens over him for his covering. He must stand at his post day and night, summer and winter; face the scorching sun, the chilling tempest, and be exposed to all the storms of the season, without any comfortable repose; perhaps during most of the time with a scanty allowance of the coarsest food, and often destitute of any, except the miserable supply he may have chance to plunder – not enough to satisfy, but only to keep alive the craving demands of nature; often compelled to march and countermarch several days and nights in succession, without a moment to prepare his provisions to nourish him and glad to get a little raw to sustain his life. Frequently, this hardship is endured in the cold and inclement season, while his tattered clothing is only the remains of his summer dress. Barefooted and half naked, fatigued and chilled, he becomes a prey to disease, and is often left to perish without a human being to administer to him the least comfort. If he is carried to a hospital, he is there surrounded by the pestilential breath of hundreds of his poor fellow-sufferers, where the best comforts that can be afforded are but scanty and dismal.
But all this is comparatively trifling to the sufferings of the wounded on the field of battle. There, thousands of mangled bodies lie on the cold ground hours, and sometimes days, without a friendly hand to bind up a wound; not a voice is heard except the dying groans of their fellow-sufferers around them. No one can describe the horrors of the scene: here lies one with a fractured skull, there another with a severed limb, and a third with a lacerated body; some fainting with the loss of blood, others distracted, and others again crying for help.
If such are some of the faint outlines of the fatigues and sufferings of soldiers, then their occupation must be an inhuman employment, for they are instrumental in bringing the same calamities on others which they suffer themselves; and of course it is unfriendly to the spirit of the gospel, and wrong for Christians to engage in it.

6. War is inhuman, as it destroys the youth
and cuts off the hope of the aged

All of mankind are speedily hastening into eternity, and it might be supposed sufficiently fast without the aid of all the ingenuity and strength of man to hurry them forward; yet it is a melancholy truth that a great proportion of the wealth, talents, and labors of men are actually employed in inventing and using means for the premature destruction of their fellow-beings.
One generation passes away, and another follows in quick succession. The young are always the stay and hope of the aged; parents labor and toil for their children to supply their wants and to educate them to be happy, respectable, and useful, and then depend upon them to be their stay and comfort in their declining years. Alas, how many expectations of fond parents are blasted! Their sons are taken away from them and hurried into the field of slaughter.
In times of war the youth – the flower, strength, and beauty of the country – are called from their sober, honest, and useful employments to the field of battle; and if they do not lose their lives or limbs, they generally lose their habits of morality and industry. Alas! Few ever return again to the bosom of their friends. Though from their mistaken and fascinating views of a soldier’s life and honor they may be delighted in enlisting, and merry in their departure from their peaceful homes, yet their joy is soon turned into pain and sorrow. Unthinking youth, like the horse, rushes thoughtlessly into the battle. Repentance is then too late; to shrink back is death, and to go forward is only a faint hope of life. Here on the dreadful field are thousands and hundreds of thousands driven together to slaughter each other by a few ambitious men, perhaps none of whom are present. A large number are probably the youth of their country, the delight and comfort of their parents. All these opposing numbers are most likely persons who never knew or heard of each other, having no personal ill-will, most of whom would in any other circumstances not only not injure each other but be ready to aid in any kind office; yet by the act of war they are ranged against each other in all the hellish rage of revenge and slaughter.
No pen, much less that of the writer, can describe the inhumanity and horrors of a battle. All is confusion and dismay, dust and smoke arising, horses running, trumpets blasting, cannon roaring, bullets whistling, and the shrieks of the wounded and dying vibrating from every quarter. Column after column of men charge upon each other in furious onset, with the awful crash of bayonets and sabers, with eyes flashing and visages frightfully distorted with rage, rushing upon each other with the violence of brutish monsters; and when these are literally cut to pieces others march in quick succession, only to share the same cruel and bloody tragedy. Hundreds are parrying the blows; hundreds more are thrusting their bayonets into the bowels of their fellow-mortals, and many, while extricating them, have their own heads cleft asunder by swords and sabers; and all are hurried together before the tribunal of their Judge, with hearts full of rage and hands dyed in the blood of their brethren.
O horrid and debasing scene! My heart melts at the contemplation, and I forbear to dwell upon the inhuman employment.

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 1\t

WAR IS INHUMAN

7. War is inhuman, as it multiplies widows and
orphans, and clothes the land in mourning

The widow and fatherless are special objects of divine compassion, and Christianity binds men under the strongest obligation to be kind and merciful towards them, as their situation is peculiarly tender and afflicting.
“A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widow, is God in his holy habitation.” “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction.”
To be active in any measure that has a natural tendency to wantonly multiply widows and orphans in a land is the height of inhumanity as well as daring impiety.
I will venture to say that no one circumstance in our world has so greatly multiplied widows and fatherless children as that of war. What has humanity ever gained by war to counterbalance simply the afflictions of the widow and fatherless? I verily believe nothing comparatively. I am well aware that a very popular plea for war is to defend, as it is styled, “our firesides, our wives and children”; but this generally is only a specious address to the feelings, to rouse up a martial spirit which makes thousands of women and children wretched where one is made happy. I am sensible that those will sneer at my opinion who regard more the honor that comes from men than they do the consolation of the widow and the fatherless.
In times of war thousands of virtuous women are deprived of their husbands and ten thousands of helpless children of their fathers. The little tender children may gather round their disconsolate mothers, anxiously inquiring about their fathers, remembering their kind visages, recollecting how they used fondly to dandle them on their knees and affectionately instruct them; but now they are torn from their embraces by the cruelty of war, and they have no fathers left them but their Father in heaven.
It is probably no exaggeration to suppose that in Europe there are now two hundred thousand widows and a million fatherless children occasioned by war. What a mass of affliction! Humanity bleeds at the thought! These children must now roam about without a father to provide for, protect, or instruct them. They now become an easy prey to all kinds of vice; many probably will be trained up for ignominious death, and most of them fit only for a soldier’s life, to slaughter and to be slaughtered, unless some humane hand kindly takes them under its protection.
And here I cannot help admiring the spirit of Christianity. It is owing to the blessed spirit and temper of the gospel of peace that many of the evils of war are so much ameliorated at the present day as well as the inhuman slavery of men.
The numerous asylums that now exist for the relief of the needy, the widow, and the fatherless are some of the precious fruits of Christianity; and if this spirit were universal, the bow would soon be broken to pieces, the spear cut asunder, and the chariots of war burnt with fire, and wars would cease to the ends of the earth.
And is it not the duty of all who name the name of Christ to do all in their power to counteract this destroying evil?
War not only multiplies widows and orphans but also clothes the land in mourning. In times of war multitudes of people are clothed with ensigns of mourning. Here are gray-headed parents shrouded in blackness, weeping for the loss of darling sons; there are widows covered with veils mourning the loss of husbands, and refusing to be comforted; children crying because their fathers are no more. Cities and villages are covered in darkness and desolation; weeping and mourning arise from almost every abode.
And it may be asked: what inhuman hand is the cause of all this sorrow? Perhaps some rash man, in the impetuosity of his spirit, has taken some unjust, high ground, and is too proud to retrace a step, and would rather see millions wretched than to nobly confess that he had been in the wrong.
Surely Christians cannot be active in such measures without incurring the displeasure of God, who styles himself the father of the fatherless and the judge and avenger of the widow.

Thus I have shown that war is inhuman and therefore wholly inconsistent with Christianity, by proving that it tends to destroy humane dispositions; that it hardens the hearts and blunts the tender feelings of men; that it involves the abuse of God’s animal creation; that it oppresses the poor; that it spreads terror and distress among mankind; that it subjects soldiers to cruel privations and sufferings; that it destroys the youth and cuts off the hope of the aged; and that it multiplies widows and orphans and occasions mourning and sorrow.
The fact that war is inhuman is indeed one of those obvious truths that it is difficult to render plainer by argument; those who know in what war consists cannot help knowing that it is inhuman.
What Mr. Windham said with reference to the inhumanity of slavery may be said of the inhumanity of war. In one of his speeches in the House of Commons against the slave trade, he stated his difficulty in arguing against such a trade to be of that kind which is felt in arguing in favor of a self-evident proposition. “If it were denied that two and two made four, it would not be a very easy task,” he said, “to find arguments to support the affirmative side of the question. Precisely similar was his embarrassment in having to prove that the slave trade was unjust and inhuman.”
Whoever admits that the slave trade is inhuman must admit that war is inhuman in a greater variety of ways and on a much larger scale.
The inhumanity of the slave trade was the great and, finally, triumphant argument by which it was proved to be inconsistent with Christianity.
The advocates of slavery, like the advocates of war, resorted to the Old Testament for support; but it appeared that slavery, as it also appears that war, was permitted and approved of for reasons and on principles peculiar to the ancient economy. This is apparent as well from the difference between the general design of the old and new dispensations as from the whole genius and spirit of the gospel. Hence, those who opposed the slave trade argued from the general nature and spirit of Christianity as the strongest ground that could be taken. If slavery is inconsistent with this, it ought not to be tolerated; but slavery is inhuman and is therefore inconsistent with Christianity. Exactly the same is true of war, and nothing short of an express revelation from God, commanding war or slavery, can render either of them justifiable.
It deserves to be distinctly considered that the gospel contains little or nothing directly by way of precept against slavery; but slavery is inconsistent with its general requirements and inculcations, and is therefore wrong. But war, besides being inconsistent with the genius and spirit of the gospel, is prohibited by those precepts which forbid retaliation and revenge, and those which require forgiveness and good will.
It is plain, then, that he who does not advocate and defend the slave trade, to be consistent, must grant that war is incompatible with Christianity, and that it is a violation of the gospel to countenance it.

I got this on my e-mail few days ago.

------------------------------------------

"My Servants Would Fight"

by George Davis and Michael Clark

________________________

No one had ever heard anything like it! "Love your enemies . . . Do good to those who despitefully use you . . . If your enemy thirsts give him a drink . . ." Surely Jesus requires too much! How could one dare drop his guard in such a violent world?

Jesus came offering peace in the midst of the most oppressive circumstances saying, "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world gives, give I unto you." Having said that, He comforted the children of this war-torn and enslaved nation, presently under Rome's heal, with the words, "Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" (John 14:27 KJ2000). What? In the midst of all their troubles where their oppressors killed whole groups of Jews wholesale and terrorized them with the threat of the sword or worse, Jesus said, "Let not your heart be troubled . . ."?

Undoubtedly, those who hoped that Messiah would come leading a military rebellion to overthrow their captors were disappointed in Jesus' indifference to their cause. The peace that Jesus gave/gives is not as the world gives, because it is not dependent on outward circumstances. This was totally foreign to the thinking of the Jews. Likewise, the freedom that He offers cannot be helped or hindered by extenuating circumstances, and if that is not hard enough to comprehend, Jesus added, "Blessed are the poor . . ."

The freedom Jesus offers His followers remains as great an offense today to those who maintain that freedom can only be won and maintained militarily.

It is believed that Judas, who betrayed Christ, was of this mindset and that his betrayal was directly related to his disappointment in a Christ who would not fight for their political freedom. Jesus said, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." They could not see that such freedom is not as the world gives and, as such, is not outward nor won by political or military means. Rather, it is enjoyed in the presence of our enemies. Jesus told us how this is done, saying, "Bless those who curse you." Here again, does Christ require too much of us? How is victory gained by giving those who seek to harm us a cup of cold water in His name? Is it reasonable for Jesus to expect us to make ourselves vulnerable and thereby give our enemies the perfect freedom to do with us as they will? Are we to be as lambs who stand dumb before those who are about to shear us? Surely, Jesus, you require too much!

Isn't He taking the side of our enemies when He exhorts us, "If your enemy bids you to go a mile go with him two." Is not this a form of treason, to aid and abet your enemies? Why is Jesus seemingly so indifferent toward our personal safety? Doesn't He care that people hate us and want us dead? How can He, who is said to be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, hazard our safety so easily? Understanding the mystery behind this seeming divine indifference toward human injustice is critical if we are to know the peace that goes well beyond our human understanding and circumstances.

_________________________________

And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go two with him.

(Matthew 5:41 ISV)

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The word "witness" in the New Testament comes from the Greek word:

Martus - mar'-toos Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a "martyr": - martyr, record, witness.

When Jesus rose again from the dead and appeared to His disciples He told them, "But you shall receive power, after the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8 KJ2000). They had just asked Him if He would now establish His earthly kingdom over all the kingdoms of the earth. In effect He answered, "Good news, boys! This is what I have died and rose again to establish for you to walk in. You will be hunted down and martyred to the uttermost ends of the earth as a witness to this sinful world because you have my Spirit in you." Oh, how the western church likes to be "Christian" without the dangers of martyrdom in its safe gatherings behind hallowed doors. But Jesus calls us out of our safety zones into all the world to be His witnesses (martyrs).

Christ has called every believer to be a witness, and that witness is not in the first mile but in the second. In the second mile you are no longer conscripted. Under Roman law a soldier could compel a conquered foe to carry their pack for a mile. Jesus asked for something a bit more exceptional. He asks His followers to volunteer to go a second mile. It was in carrying your enemy's gear the second mile that you were free to love and serve by your own choosing and in obedience to Christ. In the first mile you have done only what is required of you--the expected and demanded thing. There is no witness in that. This is not exceptional at all. To walk in the Spirit of Christ demands much more than this! The witness (testimony of Jesus, His reality and power) is demonstrated in the second mile, where we choose to go beyond what the world would do and demonstrate a service to our enemies that costs us. We give, we pray, we do good . . . If we do not excel beyond the limits of what is expected or demanded of us we are like the unworthy servants of Luke 17, who say to their Master, "We are unworthy servants [possessing no merit, for we have not gone beyond our obligation]; we have [merely] done what was our duty to do" (Luke 17:10 AMP). There is no witness or profit in anything that does not go beyond the call of duty and obligation.

If we are to be perfect as God is perfect, we must go beyond this purely self-preserving carnal instinct that is common to us all. The witness occurs when our attitude and behavior toward evil men is in keeping with God's posture toward them. "He makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." It is in loving or enemies that we are perfect as God is perfect. When we behave toward our enemies as God does toward His, then we perfect are from a divine point of view. Then we are the sons of our Father who is in heaven, reflecting His image and character. He sends His rain on the just and unjust, and we reflect Him by doing the same.

Having said this, let's now read Christ's thoughts on this matter in context.

"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:44-48 RSV)

This is extremely important because our obedience to Christ in this matter determines all God's responses toward us. He will not act on our behalf if our preoccupation in life is to ensure that we receive fair and just treatment, while we banish and demand retribution from those who do not comply. One of the earliest phrases that come from a child's mind when they feel that they did not get a fair shake is, "It's not fair!" If we defend ourselves He will not be our Defender. Why is this? Those who defend themselves are trying to save their lives and are receiving the promised results. If we seek to save our lives we will lose them (See Matthew 16:25). If we are unforgiving in our obsession to receive fair treatment, God will withhold forgiveness from us (Matthew 18: 35) because we are engaged in an activity that is not ours to do. "'Vengeance is Mine,' says the Lord, 'I will repay.'" Though it is much easer said than done, if we make ourselves vulnerable, having complete faith in God's provision and protection, He promises to be our Defender. This principle is throughout the Old and New Testaments alike. Suffice it to say, God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are often not our thoughts. We must have our minds renewed in order to see victorious life as He sees it-- not by power or by might but by His Spirit.

Jesus modeled this at every turn. For instance, when He humbly rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, He was making a declaration of victory and peace that had, many years before, been announced by the prophets of Israel. "Rejoice greatly, O daughter Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. He will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the war-horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall command peace to the nations; his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth" (Zechariah 9:9-10 NRSV).

followed by part 2.

Bro. Kire,

Great article brother, am anticipating part 2.
Thank you for the addition.

In His Love
pastorfrin

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 2\t

________________________________________

WAR IS UNWISE

That the principles and practice of war are unwise I argue:

1. Because, instead of preventing,
they provoke insult and mischief

The maxim, that in order to preserve peace, mankind must be prepared for war, has become so common, and sanctioned by such high authority, that few question its wisdom or policy; but if stripped of its specious garb, it may appear to proceed not from that wisdom which came down from above, which is “first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy”; and if it is not the wisdom from above, then it must be the wisdom from beneath.
Are not pride, avarice, and revenge the seeds of all kinds of carnal warfare? From these grow all the quarreling among children, the discord among families, the bickering, law suits, and broils among neighbors, the boxing among bullies, the dueling among modern gentlemen, and wars among nations. They all originate from one and the same spirit.
Is the mild, meek, and peaceable man, unarmed, more liable to inspire jealousy in others that he is about to insult and abuse them than the high-toned duelist who constantly carries with him deadly weapons? Does he, in fact, so often get into difficulty, quarreling and fighting? The respectable Society of Friends stands a living monument to answer the question.
On the principles of self-defense, as they are styled, if one man suspects an injury from another, unless he is naturally a more powerful man, he must take a cane, as the principles of self-defense require a superior power in your own hand, either by art or muscular strength. When the other learns the suspicions and sees the preparation, he in his turn must take a bludgeon to preserve the balance of power and proclaim a threatening to awe his antagonist, who must now take a sword and return a threatening in order to maintain his dignity; for it will not do for men of honor to retract, however much they may be in the wrong. The other, again, must take a deadly weapon for his defense, and nothing is now wanting but an unhappy meeting to set each other’s blood a flowing.
Much in the same way, nations often get into desperate warfare. One nation is busily increasing its military strength on the plausible maxim of preserving peace and maintaining its rights. Another nation views the preparations with a jealous eye, and also goes to work on the same principle to make formidable preparations. All the nations around take the alarm, and on the same principle begin active preparations, all vying with each other to become the most formidable. If one sends an ambassador to inquire into the cause of the great preparations, the answer always is, let the motive be what it may, for their own defense. Then the other makes new exertions and begins to fortify towns on the confines of his neighbor, who must not only do the same, but also march a large army for the defense of his frontier; and the other must do likewise. By this time, if no old quarrel remained unsettled, perhaps one charges the other with encroachment on territory; the other denies the charge, and contends sharply for his pretended rights. Ministers may be interchanged, and while negotiations are pending a high tone must be taken by both parties, for this is an essential principle in the doctrine of self-defense; the contrary would betray weakness and fear. Newspapers must be ushered forth with flaming pieces to rouse, as it is called, the spirit of the countries, so as to impress upon the populace the idea that the approaching war is just and necessary, for all wars must be just and necessary on both sides. In the meantime extraordinary envoys may be sent to other powers by each party to enlist their aid – most of whom are already prepared for war – and each one selects his side according to his interests and feelings. At length the ultimatum is given and refused, and the dreadful conflict commences. Few wars, however, begin in this slow and progressive mode; a trifling aggression is sufficient to blow up the flame with nations already prepared.
Thus, we see, nations resemble bulldogs that happen to meet. They will first raise their hairs, show their teeth, then growl, and then seize upon each other with all their strength and fury; and bulldogs have something of the same kind of honor, for they scorn to retreat.
Hence we see that the acknowledged principles of defensive war are the vital springs of most of the wars that agitate and desolate our world. The pretended distinction between offensive and defensive war is but a name. All parties engaged in war proclaim to the world that they only are fighting in defense of their rights, and that their enemies are the aggressors; while it may be impossible for man to decide which are most in the wrong.
The popular maxim of being prepared for war in order to be at peace may be seen to be erroneous in fact, for the history of nations abundantly shows that few nations ever made great preparations for war and remained long in peace. When nations prepare for war they actually go to war, and tell the world that their preparations were not a mere show.
Thus we may see that the principles and preparations of war actually engender war instead of promoting peace; and of course they are unwise, and, if unwise, then it is folly for Christians to engage in them.

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 2\t

________________________________________

WAR IS UNWISE

That the principles and practice of war are unwise I argue:

2. War is unwise, for instead of diminishing,
it increases difficulties

As the principles and preparations of war have a natural tendency to generate war and are actually the cause of a great proportion of the wars that do exist, so actual hostilities have a natural tendency to increase difficulties and to spread abroad the destroying evil.
It is almost impossible for any two nations to be long engaged in war without interfering with the rights and privileges of other nations, which generally awakes their jealousy and resentment, so that most of the surrounding nations are drawn into the destructive vortex. This is the more easily done, as war inflames the martial spirit in other nations not engaged, and rouses up the desperate passions of men. Besides, the belligerent nations are not content with suffering themselves, but use every art and persuasion to get the neighboring nations to join them; and they are generally too successful, for it seldom happens that two nations engage in war for a length of time and conclude a peace before they have involved other nations in their difficulties and distresses, and often a great proportion of the world is in arms.
Moreover, the nations who first engage in the contest always widen the breach between themselves by war.
It is much easier settling difficulties between individuals or nations before actual hostilities commence than afterwards. Mankind is not apt to be any more mild and accommodating in a state of actual warfare. Besides, new difficulties constantly arise. The passions become inflamed, and charges are often made of violating the established laws of civilized warfare, which laws, however, are generally bounded only by the strength of power. If one party makes an incursion into the other’s territory, storms a fortified place, and burns the town, the other party must then make a desperate effort to retaliate the same kind of destruction, to a double degree, on the towns of their enemy. Retaliation, or “rendering evil for evil,” is not only allowed by Muslims and pagans, but is an open and avowed principle in the doctrine of self-defense among professed Christian nations. Not only is it sanctioned by the laity, but also too often by the priests who minister in the name of Jesus Christ.
Both of the contending parties generally seize on each other’s possessions wherever they can get hold of them, whether on the seas or on the land. The barbarous spoliations on each other stir up the passions of the great mass of their inhabitants, until they esteem it a virtue to view each other as natural and perpetual enemies, and then their rulers can prosecute the war with what they call vigor.
Can the wound now be so easily healed as it could have been before it became thus lacerated and inflamed? Facts speak to the contrary, and nations seldom attempt negotiations for peace under such circumstances. They generally prosecute the war with all their power until one party or the other is overcome, or until both have exhausted their strength, and then they may mutually agree to a temporary peace to gain a little respite, when perhaps the original matter of dispute has become comparatively so trifling that it is almost left out of the account.
With a small spirit of forbearance and accommodation how easily might the difficulties have been settled before such an immense loss of blood and treasure!
If war does actually increase, instead of diminishing, difficulties, then it must be very unwise to engage in it.

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 2\t

________________________________________

WAR IS UNWISE

That the principles and practice of war are unwise I argue:

3. War is unwise, because it destroys property

Property is what a great proportion of mankind is struggling to obtain, and many at the hazard of their lives. Though in some instances they may misuse it, yet it is the gift of God, and when made subservient to more important things, it may be a blessing to individuals and communities. It has in it, therefore, a real value, and ought not to be wantonly destroyed while it may be used as an instrument for benefiting mankind.
It is a notorious fact that war does make a great destruction of property. Thousands of individuals on sea and on land lose their all, for the acquisition of which they may have spent the prime of their lives. Ships on the high seas are taken, often burnt or scuttled, and valuable cargoes sent to the bottom of the deep, some possibly laden with the necessaries of life and bound to ports where the innocent inhabitants were in a state of famine. Whole countries are laid waste by only the passing of an immense army: houses are defaced, furniture broken to pieces, the stores of families eaten up, cornfields trodden down, fences torn away and used for fuel, and everything swept in its train as with the besom of destruction more terrible to the inhabitants than the storms of heaven when sent in judgment. Beautiful towns are often literally torn to pieces with shot and shells. Venerable cities, the labor and pride of ages, are buried in ashes amid devouring flames, while in melancholy grandeur the fire and smoke rise to heaven and seem to cry for vengeance on the destroyers.
Notwithstanding an avaricious individual or nation may occasionally in war acquire by plunder from their brethren a little wealth, yet they usually lose, on the whole, more than they gain. On the general scale the loss is incalculable. It is not my object to examine the subject in relation to any particular nation or war, but upon the general scale in application to all warlike nations and all wars under the light of the gospel.
If war does destroy property, reduce individuals to beggary, and impoverish nations, then it is unwise to engage in it.

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 2\t

________________________________________

WAR IS UNWISE

That the principles and practice of war are unwise I argue:

4. War is unwise, as it is dangerous to the liberties of men

Liberty is the gift of God, and ought to be dear to every man – but not, however, that licentious liberty which is not in subordination to his commands. Men are not independent of God. He is their creator, preserver, and benefactor. Their breath is in his hand, and he has a right to do what he will with his own; and the Judge of all the earth will do right. As man is not the creator and proprietor of man, he has no right to infringe on his liberty or life without God’s express divine command; and then he acts only as the executor of God. Man, therefore, bears a very different relation to God from what he does to his fellow man.
The whole system of war is tyrannical and subversive of the fundamental principles of liberty. It often brings the great mass of community under the severe bondage of military despotism, so that their lives and fortunes are at the sport of a tyrant. Where martial law is proclaimed, liberty is cast down, and despotism raises her horrid ensign in its place and fills the dungeons and scaffolds with her victims.
Soldiers in actual service are reduced to the most abject slavery, not able to command their time for a moment, and are constantly driven about like beasts by petty tyrants. In them is exhibited the ridiculous absurdity of men rushing into bondage and destruction to preserve or acquire their liberty and save their lives.
When the inhabitants of a country are cruelly oppressed by a despotic government, and they rise in mass to throw off the yoke, they are as often as otherwise crushed beneath the weight of the power under which they groaned, and then their sufferings are greatly increased; and if they gain their object after a long and sanguinary struggle, they actually suffer more on the whole than they would have suffered had they remained in peace. It is generally the providence of God, too, to make a people who have thrown off the yoke of their oppressor smart more severely under the government of their own choice than they did under the government that they destroyed. This fact ought well to be considered by everyone of a revolutionary spirit.
War actually generates a spirit of anarchy and rebellion that is destructive to liberty. When the inhabitants of a country are engaged in the peaceable employments of agriculture, manufacture, and commerce, anarchy and rebellion seldom happen. When these useful employments flourish, abundance flows in on every side, gentleness and humanity cast a smile over the land, and pleasure beams in almost every countenance. To turn the attention of a nation from these honest employments to that of war is an evil of unspeakable magnitude. The great object in times of war is to rouse up what is styled the spirit of the country – which, in fact, is nothing but inflaming the most destructive passions against its own peace and safety. If you infuse into a nation the spirit of war for the sake of fighting a foreign enemy, you do that which is often most dangerous to its own liberties; for if you make peace with the common enemy, you do not destroy the spirit of war among your own inhabitants. Pride, discontent, and revenge will generally agitate the whole body, so that anarchy and confusion will fill the land, and nothing but a despotic power can restrain it. Absolute despotism is often too feeble to withstand it, and the only remedy is again to seek a common enemy. Nations have sometimes waged war against other nations because there was such a spirit of war among their own inhabitants that they could not be restrained from fighting,[2] and if they had not a common foe they would fight one another. So when a nation once unsheathes the sword, it cannot easily return the sword again to the scabbard, but must keep it crimsoned with the blood of man until “they who take the sword shall perish with the sword,” agreeably to the denunciation of Heaven.
To inflame a mild republic with the spirit of war is putting all its liberties to the utmost hazard, and is an evil that few appear to understand or appreciate. No person can calculate the greatness of the evil of transforming the citizens of a peaceful, industrious republic into a band of furious soldiers; and yet the unhappy policy of nations is to cultivate a martial spirit so that they may appear grand, powerful, and terrific, when in fact they are kindling flames that will eventually burn them up root and branch.
In confirmation of what has been said, if we examine the history of nations we shall find that they have generally lost their liberties in consequence of the spirit and practice of war. Thus have republics who have boasted of their freedom lost their liberty one after another, and that this has resulted from the very nature of war and its inseparable evils is evident from the fact that so violent and deadly is this current of ruin, republics have generally sunk down to the lowest abyss of tyranny and despotism, or have been annihilated and their inhabitants scattered to the four winds of heaven. Indeed, what nation that has become extinct did not first lose its liberty by war, and then hasten to its end under the dominion of those passions which war inflames?
Do nations ever enjoy so much liberty as when most free from the spirit of war? Are their liberties ever so little endangered as when this spirit is allayed and all its foreign excitements removed? Do not nations that have partially lost their civil liberties gradually regain them in proportion as they continue long without war? Is it not a common sentiment that the liberties of a people are in danger when war engrosses their attention? On the whole, is it not undeniable that peace is favorable to liberty, and that war is its enemy and its ruin? If so, what can be more unwise, what more opposite to every dictate of sound wisdom and policy, than the spirit and practice of war?

“For I was ashamed to require of the king a band of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way: because we had spoken unto the king, saying, The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath is against all them that forsake him.”
— Ezra 8:22

A convoy on many accounts would have been desirable for the pilgrim band, but a holy shame-facedness would not allow Ezra to seek one. He feared lest the heathen king should think his professions of faith in God to be mere hypocrisy, or imagine that the God of Israel was not able to preserve his own worshippers. He could not bring his mind to lean on an arm of flesh in a matter so evidently of the Lord, and therefore the caravan set out with no visible protection, guarded by him who is the sword and shield of his people. It is to be feared that few believers feel this holy jealousy for God; even those who in a measure walk by faith, occasionally mar the lustre of their life by craving aid from man. It is a most blessed thing to have no props and no buttresses, but to stand upright on the Rock of Ages, upheld by the Lord alone. Would any believers seek state endowments for their Church, if they remembered that the Lord is dishonoured by their asking Caesar’s aid? as if the Lord could not supply the needs of his own cause! Should we run so hastily to friends and relations for assistance, if we remembered that the Lord is magnified by our implicit reliance upon his solitary arm? My soul, wait thou only upon God. “But,” says one, “are not means to be used?” Assuredly they are; but our fault seldom lies in their neglect: far more frequently it springs out of foolishly believing in them instead of believing in God. Few run too far in neglecting the creature’s arm; but very many sin greatly in making too much of it. Learn, dear reader, to glorify the Lord by leaving means untried, if by using them thou wouldst dishonour the name of the Lord.

Spurgeon, C. H.

Here is the second part, sorry for the delay.

"My Servants Would Fight"

by George Davis and Michael Clark

[b]Part 2[/b]

Deferred Triumph--Conquering Through Seeming Defeat

Triumphant, victorious, declaring peace, yet lowly and humble--this is not the way it is done among the world's victors! This peace certainly is NOT as the world gives! Where is the parading of the vanquished in chains before all? What was so victorious about coming into Jerusalem meek and lowly, setting on a humble beast of burden only to be crucified a few days later? Where is the victory in that? Unless our minds are renewed with the mind of Christ, we will not see it. We cannot rejoice greatly, as the prophet exhorted, until we comprehend the nature of the victory that Christ won on our behalf--the victory to end all wars, within and without.

Before this victory could be fully won, Jesus first had to conquer the very thing that keeps humankind in a constant struggle to defend their lives. He overcame the carnal passion in Himself to retaliate or to save His life. When Peter in his zeal for Jesus drew his sword in defense of the Lord, cutting off the ear of the servant of the high priest, Jesus said, "Put up again your sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Think you that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?" Though all the power of heaven could have been summoned at His word, Jesus would not circumvent the cup of His suffering. "The wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God." How could God command peace to the nations if His own Son rose up to defend Himself? He was the One who came as the Prince of Peace, beating His sword into a plowshare.

Jesus came as that Prince to show us another way. Through obedience to the Father's will, Jesus won a great victory. Just before He was arrested, tried, tortured and killed, He prayed, "Father I would that this cup (His impending crucifixion) pass from me, but never the less, not my will, but yours be done." It was in this obedient act that He disarmed rulers and authorities; "He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them . . ." Wait a minute! When did Jesus parade Caesar through the streets naked as His vanquished foe? How about Herod, Pilate, the high priests or the rest of the power structure that came against Him? How did He triumph over them? How did He make an open show of rulers and authorities? He did it by laying down His life on the cross. Paul wrote, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that were against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" (Colossians 2:14-15 KJ2000).

Jesus spoiled the Spoiler and took his captives captive to Himself by becoming their righteousness. Jesus overcame evil with goodness that defines all that is good. This is the anomalous victory that from a purely human perspective looks like utter defeat. Standing at the foot of His cross scoffers mocked, "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, I am the Son of God'" (Matthew 27:42-43 NKJV). Jesus could have saved himself. He could have called legions of angels and all would have been lost in a moment of self-preservation. Instead He elected to model another way. He overcame evil with good.

The impact of Christ's victory is far-reaching. James A. Francis was indeed within the mark when he wrote.

"I am far within the mark when I say that all the armies that ever marched, and all the navies that ever were built, and all the parliaments that ever sat, and all the kings that ever reigned, put together have not affected the life of man upon this earth as powerfully as that One Solitary Life" - One Solitary Life

This powerful statement would not be true at all had Christ not overcome in a particular way. Had He returned evil for evil, all would have been lost. If we want to know the victory of Christ, we must also obey Him in this matter because such a victory is known only by those who walk as he walked.

Overcoming Evil with Good

For the sake of emphasis, let's now compare Jesus' words on this subject and the words of those who were commissioned by Him, noting the application of them among the early believers.

Jesus taught,

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, don't resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and don't turn away him who desires to borrow from you. "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:38-48 WEB)

Woe, when men speak well of you! For their fathers did the same thing to the false prophets. "But I tell you who hear: love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who mistreat you. To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer also the other; and from him who takes away your cloak, don't withhold your coat also. Give to everyone who asks you, and don't ask him who takes away your goods to give them back again. As you would like people to do to you, do exactly so to them. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive back as much. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing back; and your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil. (Luke 6:26-35 WEB)

How did those who were taught and commissioned by Christ perceive and communicate His teachings?

Peter wrote,

Beloved, don't be astonished at the fiery trial which has come upon you, to test you, as though a strange thing happened to you. But because you are partakers of Christ's sufferings, rejoice; that at the revelation of his glory also you may rejoice with exceeding joy. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, blessed are you; because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. On their part he is blasphemed, but on your part he is glorified. For let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or an evil doer, or as a meddler in other men's matters. But if one of you suffers for being a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God in this matter. For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God. If it begins first with us, what will happen to those who don't obey the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:12-17 WEB)

Finally, be all like-minded, compassionate, loving as brothers, tenderhearted, courteous, not rendering evil for evil, or reviling for reviling; but instead blessing; knowing that to this were you called, that you may inherit a blessing. For, "He who would love life, and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking deceit. Let him turn away from evil, and do good. Let him seek peace, and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears open to their prayer; But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil." (1 Peter 3:8-12 WEB)

Paul wrote,

Don't seek to revenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to God's wrath. For it is written, "'Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay,' says the Lord." Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in doing so, you will heap coals of fire on his head." Don't be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:19-21 WEB)

See that no one returns evil for evil to anyone, but always follow after that which is good, for one another, and for all. (1 Thessalonians 5:15 WEB)

Pretty clear, don't you think? To this we were called! It is evil when someone attacks me. It is evil when I retaliate. Two evils don't make a good, but God can do something in us that the devil cannot do--He can turn the evil that is against us into our glory if we don't lift a hand to return in kind or defend ourselves.

For the next few moments let's look at Matthew 5:39, where in three little words Jesus gives the only righteous response to evil.

"Resist Not Evil"

followed by part 3

"My Servants Would Fight"

[b]Part 3[/b]

"Resist Not Evil"

"You have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38-39 KJ2000)

We tend to take the Bible literally except for passages like this. Surely there is some deeper meaning that doesn't leave us at the mercy of our enemies? Who is guiltier, the one who does evil or the one who returns evil? "He hit me first!" is a popular excuse offered by children for their retaliation on playgrounds every day. An eye for an eye, tit-for-tat, surely I am just in repaying my enemies double, especially if they strike first! Or like one Christian leader said, "Jesus said I had to turn the other cheek when hit, but He didn't say what I couldn't do after that!" Until the teachings of Jesus are taken seriously, there will never be an end to the wars. A godly peace is not won by the chariots, war-horses or tanks and missiles, but through lowliness, meekness and self-sacrifice.

While exiled on the island of Patmos, John heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down." How is the accuser cast down? How do the salvation, strength, kingdom and power of Christ come? The record continues, "And they [the overcomers] overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death" (see Revelation 12:10-11). How is the accuser of the brethren cast down? Overcomers cast him down. They do this by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. One more thing is needed before we can possess the final victory. The very thing that was required of Christ himself is required us. He loved not His life unto death and it is written of these overcomers, who obviously had taken the best hit that Satan could deliver, "they loved not their lives unto death." They suffered evil, but they experienced victory over the wiles of the devil the same way Jesus did.

Jesus taught the secret of life--you can only keep what you lose. The surest way to lose your life is to try to save it. "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it" (Matthew 16:25 WEB). He also taught that trying to amass riches and possessions in this life is a sure way to loose them in eternity (see Matthew 6:19-21). This goes beyond living by the sword and dying by the sword but reaches to the heart and depth of what makes men hedonists and survivors by nature. Satan knows the nature of man. While negotiating with God to get permission to test Job, he said, "Skin for skin, yea, all that a man has will he give for his life" (Job 2:4 KJ2000). After God allowed Job to be stripped of all his possessions and wealth, Satan bet that Job would curse God if he was allowed to make him miserable with a painful disease. How tragic that many have turned against God when their lives became painful or they lost someone dear to them. Yet, if they had been told the whole gospel of Christ, would they have so quickly turned away? Before his own death as a martyr at the hands of the Nazis, Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote, "When Christ calls a man, He bids him come and die." The gospel that includes the personal work of the cross is seldom heard in this day of the gospel of prosperity and success that is used to attract large church memberships. As a result new converts are like the man that Jesus warned about who went out to build himself a tower and then ran out of resources before it was completed. Let's look at the context of His warning:

And whosoever does not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sits not down first, and counts the cost, whether he has enough to finish it? Lest perhaps, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. (Luke 14:27-30 KJ2000)

If we are altogether given to pursuing our own pleasure and defending our rights, we will most certainly loose everything in the end (See Luke 21:34-35). When Jesus commissioned his disciples, He said, "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves" (Matthew 10:16 NKJV). He did not send his followers forth as armor-clad crusaders, defenders of the faith and "protectors of the Holy Land." Though we live in this world, we are not of the world or its ways. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal (see 2 Corinthians 10:3-5). Though it is taken by force (to your own nature in self-denial--the true meaning of this verse), God's kingdom cannot be advanced by the forces of this world. The wrath of man doesn't work the righteousness of God.

This is best seen in Jesus' brief and rather one-sided conversation with Pilate, just before His crucifixion. When the leaders of the Jews delivered Jesus to be executed, Pilate tried to ascertain exactly what it was that Jesus was guilty of. He asked Jesus, "What have you done?"

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from here" (John 18:36 KJ2000). My kingdom is not of (Greek - ek), out of, from or by this world. Jesus' kingdom is not after the model of worldly kingdoms. He offered the fact that he did not allow his servants to fight in His defense as proof. If His kingdom were of this world, His servants would most certainly fight. Where fighting is present, the kingdom of Christ is not. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.

Those who are truly born of His Spirit are still not allowed to return evil for evil because that is not how the Father does things. His great love will not allow it. His sun rises on the good and evil. He causes His rain to fall upon the evil as well as the just. It is not in His Father-heart to do evil to His children no matter how deluded they are. He is not willing that any should perish. He is long suffering. He patiently and lovingly waits for the fruit of the earth. He does not render evil for evil.

The Samaritans and the Jews had an ongoing feud since the time of the Solomon's death when the kingdom was divided. One time Jesus and the disciples were turned away from passing through a Samaritan village because these people perceived that they were on their way to Jerusalem.

&when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, will you that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elijah did?" But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, "You know not what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." And they went to another village. (Luke 9:54-56 KJ2000)

Like Father, like Son. Of God's purposes Peter wrote, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9 KJ21). Those who fight, even for a "just cause," do not know what spirit they are of.

When the leaders of the Jews sought to kill Jesus he told them, "You are of your father the devil and he was a liar and a murder from the beginning." Worldly kingdoms and fighting go hand in hand, because they are under the authority of the prince of this world. Christ's kingdom is not of this world order, so Christ's followers do not fight--not even to promote "the greater good." The end does not justify the means.

Perhaps you are asking, "What about the untold thousands that were killed or tortured in Holy Wars and Inquisitions under the banner of the Christian cross?" How did war become "holy" and torture become evangelical? This brings us to the very heart of the issue. At what point did the church cast off the example and teachings of Jesus in order to engage in "Crusades" and "Holy Wars" to "promote the cause of Christ" and so-called "Christian principles"? And what are the grave consequences of this deception among Christians today?

Has Christianity Lost its Savor?

We will now ask a difficult question. Has the Spirit of Glory departed from Christianity because the church no longer turns the other cheek? Have we largely forsaken the power of the Spirit and God's all enveloping love for the methods of this world system?

We tend to marvel over Israel's treatment of Christ, their Messiah, and their inability to comprehend His teachings, yet we do not recognize that a similar condition exists in the Church today. When Jesus came as Messiah, Israel was looking for a conquering king who would not only drive out the Romans, but dominate the whole earth and rule from Jerusalem, setting their existing rulers up in His new administration to co-rule with Him with a rod of iron. Even Jesus' disciples were laboring under this misconception and were asking to rule with Him when He established His earthly kingdom (See Matthew 20:20-28, Mark 10:36-45 and Luke 22:24-28) Israel didn't want a Messiah who would tell them to put down their weapons, suffer offenses, turn the other cheek, carry the packs of the Roman soldiers that extra mile and overcome evil with good. No. They wanted a fighting Messiah, after the order of Judas Maccabee.

Jesus' message of peace is just as unpopular in most of what calls itself "the church" today. Jesus, the Prince of Peace, is a constant source of irritation to those who seek a militaristic and fleshly solutions for the salvation of the Americanized Church. Israel wanted a Messiah who would lead armed forces in a victory over Rome. Isn't this same patriotic mind set many fundamental Christians find themselves in today with their kingdom now theology? By all appearances it is. Many Christians today have made Christ their god of war to help defeat the Muslims.

Recently, we tuned in to a Christian television broadcast. Two televangelists were discussing the war on terrorism. We were stunned by how casually they concluded that our country needed to attack another country because of their terrorist affiliation and how freely they salted the conversation with intermittent praises to Christ for the defeat of America's enemies. It is becoming commonplace to hear such talk coming from Christian quarters nowadays. Televangelists and some church leaders increasingly sound more like generals in war rooms than heralds of the gospel of peace!

It was interesting to watch the show put on in the nation's capital after the 9/11 attacks. Assembled in the National Cathedral were the top leaders of Christendom, a Jewish rabbi, a Muslim cleric, the President and most of his cabinet, congressman and even the admirals and generals of the US military were there to invoke God's help in calling down fire on our enemies. Warriors were seeking the approval of clerics to use their influence over the people to get the backing of the nation to go to war. It is one thing when nations rise against nations but quite another when "Christians" participate by giving their approval and support. It was hard to watch this and believe that the churches they represent were in this world, but not of this world.

Just a few months ago, another prominent television evangelist told his viewers that our country should kill the Venezuelan President to prevent this Latin American country from becoming a "launching pad" for extremism. "We have the ability to take him out," he exclaimed, "and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability." What? Is this the Spirit of Christ? Can you imagine Christ saying such a thing? Did Jesus send His zealous followers to take out Herod, knowing full well that the despot king already killed John the Baptist and would be privy to condemning Him to death?

The world holds Christians to a higher standard than this! Evidently our behavior of late hasn't impressed them all that much! Even they recognize that the Church ought to follow the example and teachings of Christ and they have every right to hold us to THAT standard. Gandhi once told a missionary in India who asked why he was not a Christian, "I would believe in your Christ if it was not for you Christians." What a sad statement this is! When the salt loses its savor it is cast off (treated as worthless) and trodden under the foot (not distinguishable from the dirt itself) of the world's people.

Why is it that, in this matter, even the world seems to have a clearer perspective than many Christians do? We believe this is due to the blinding effect of a long held church doctrine called "the just war theology" dating back to Constantine in 312AD. Yes, America is not the first country to try to make Christ their war god. Let's take a brief look at the roots of this dark tradition in order to expose its hold on Christendom today.

Rethinking the Just War Theology

Notably, the early Church had no "Just War" doctrine. From the time of Tertullian and Clement in the second century to Augustine in the fifth, there was a massive defection from the teaching and faith of the lowly Christ and somewhere in-between the just war theology began.

Tertullian's words reflect the general mentality of the early believers toward war.

"Only without the sword can the Christian wage war: for the Lord has abolished the sword."

Clement of Alexandria was even more emphatic when he wrote,

"...he who holds the sword must cast it away and that if one of the faithful becomes a soldier he must be rejected by the Church, for he has scorned God."

Three hundred years later (after Emperor Constantine had laid hold of the Church as the official religion of the Roman Empire) we find that the opposite position being promoted by the leading theologian of that day.

"True religion looks upon as peaceful those wars that are waged not for motives of aggrandizement, or cruelty, but with the object of securing peace, of punishing evil-doers, and of uplifting the good." (St. Augustine's works, Can. Apud. Caus. xxiii, qu. 1)

Augustine was the leading theologian of his day and was largely responsible for shaping the views of the Roman church in the fifth century. He was not just addressing civil government here. He was writing to a body that claimed to represent Christ. At that time the Roman Church was the civil government. It became known as the "The Holy Roman Empire" as emperors and bishops ruled together.

Why such a drastic change from Christ to Augustine? How could someone so familiar with the teachings of Christ write such a thing? Augustine is often blamed for the "Just War" doctrine. He certainly upheld it but it did not originate with him. Augustine only took it to its logical conclusion. The just war theology really began with Constantine. It was under this first "Christian" Roman Emperor that the church made the horrendous shift from spiritual weapons (wrestling with principalities and powers by the Spirit) to carnal weapons (wrestling with flesh and blood with weapons of iron).

The historian Eusebius records this transition. While he was praying at mid-day, Constantine supposedly had "a Vision of a Cross of Light in the Heavens. . . he saw with his own eyes the trophy of a cross of light in the heavens, above the sun, and bearing the inscription, CONQUER BY THIS."

According to Eusebius, Constantine further stated that "the Christ of God appeared to him in his sleep, and commanded him to use in his wars a standard made in the form of the cross." He was "to use it as a safeguard in all engagements with his enemies." He got up at dawn the next day and called together the workers in gold and precious stones to create "the Standard of the Cross, which the Romans now call the Labarum." (See Eusebius, Life of Constantine, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, series 2, vol. 1. pg. 490-491)

As Seneca the Younger rightly observed, "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." Constantine found religion useful indeed. With the help of his deceitful visions, he successfully represented Christ as the leader of a campaign that made him Emperor. He did this by putting a symbol on his implements of war that soon came to represent Christ's involvement in his campaign, the cross. He then marched his legions on Rome itself and killed his brother-in-law who was ruling with his force. Historians tell us that this was the world's first "holy war."

After becoming Emperor, Constantine used Imperial edicts demanding that those loyal to him become Christians, and if that didn't work he used bribery. He finally used his Roman Legions to force all the provinces in his domain to come under the pawl of HIS new religion, unifying the Roman Empire not only under his monarchy as emperor, but under a common religion of his own design. Thousands who resisted, including true Christians, were killed by cross-engraved swords and shields. For the first time in the history of the Church (if one can actually call such a thing "the church"), killing another human being was not murder but was an act of "liberation." Constantine was the first tyrant to lead a "Christian army" in order to solidify his power over the whole of the Roman Empire. This was without doubt the seminal beginnings of the crusades, which actually began about 300 years before Mohamed. The mold was cast for future "holy wars" that would also be fought to possess land and fill the coffers of kings and clergymen alike. Today we are still reaping the terror of this great sin as we watch the Muslim insurgency zealously attack the west with its "holy war" in retaliation for the "Christian" crusades during the Dark Ages. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

Part 4 will follow

Thank you Brother Kire for this article, parts 2 and 3 were sure worth the wait.
Eagerly await part 4, I would recommend this article to all, as it is definitely eye opening, and hopefully our hearts as well.
Oh if we could only see what are Lord is showing us.
If it could be put all together when it is complete, into one article ,that would be great.

Thanks again Brother Kire,

In His Love
pastorfrin

Here is a sermon from Daniel Kenaston who will be preachin at the upcoming Revival Conference...

He says that the naming of the doctrine "nonresistance" is slightly off in what the name implies...He states that this doctrine should be named "Suffering Love."

http://www.charityministries.org/audio/3282.mp3

In Christ
Jeff

rookie wrote:
Here is a sermon from Daniel Kenaston who will be preachin at the upcoming Revival Conference...

He says that the naming of the doctrine "nonresistance" is slightly off in what the name implies...He states that this doctrine should be named "Suffering Love."

http://www.charityministries.org/audio/3282.mp3

In Christ
Jeff

Thanks Jeff,

This is definitely a must hear for anyone who is at all serious about following our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is # five from a six part series tilted:
"A Declaration of the Faith" Set # 133

http://www.charityministries.org/messages.a5w?messages_Page=2&messages_Filter=(left(index%2C1)%3D%22M%22.and.category_description%3C%3E%22Music%22).or.left(index%2C3)%3D%22SET%22

It can be ordered, down loaded or listened to online.
I would recommend to all serious about following Christ.
Thanks again

In His Love
pastorfrin

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 2\t

________________________________________

WAR IS UNWISE

That the principles and practice of war are unwise I argue:

5. War is unwise, as it diminishes the happiness of mankind

Happiness is the professed object that most men are striving to obtain. Alas! Few, comparatively, seek it where it is alone to be found. But that happiness which flows from the benevolent spirit of the gospel is to be prized far above rubies. It is a treasure infinitely surpassing anything that can be found merely in riches, honors, and pleasures.
But war always diminishes the aggregate of happiness in the world. When nations wage war upon each other, all classes of their inhabitants are more or less oppressed. They are subjected to various privations: prosperity declines, and external sources of happiness are mostly dried up. Anxiety for friends, loss of relations, loss of property, the fear of pillage, severe services, great privations, and the dread of conquest keep them constantly distressed. They are like the troubled sea that cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
Those actually engaged in war generally suffer privations and hardships of the severest kind. Even the sage counselors who declare wars are often in so great anxiety and pain as to the result of their enterprises as to be unable quietly to refresh themselves with food or sleep.
All the rejoicings occasioned by military success are fully counterbalanced by the pain and mortification of the vanquished and, in short, all the interest and happiness resulting from war to individuals and nations are dearly bought, and are at the expense of other individuals and nations.
It is because war has no tendency to increase, but does in fact greatly diminish, happiness that it is so universally regarded and lamented as the greatest evil that visits our world. Hence fasting has generally been practiced by warlike Christian nations to deplore the calamity, to humble themselves before God, and to supplicate his mercy in turning away the judgment.
Though fasting and deep humility before God are highly suitable for sinners, with a hearty turning away from their sins and humble supplication for God’s mercy through the mediation of Christ, yet those fasts of nations, who have voluntarily engaged in wars and are determined to prosecute them until their lusts and passions are gratified, do not appear to be such fasts as God requires.
Does it not appear absurd for nations voluntarily to engage in war, and then to proclaim a fast to humble themselves before God for its evils, while they have no desire to turn away from those evils, but, on the contrary, make it an express object to seek the divine aid in assisting them successfully to perpetuate the very evils for which they are fasting?
We often see contending nations, all of whom cannot be right on any principle, proclaiming fasts, and chanting forth their solemn Te Deums,as each may occasionally be victorious. Though such clashing hymns cannot mingle in the golden censer, yet few Christians seem to question the propriety of quarreling and fighting nations each in their turn supplicating aid in their unhallowed undertakings and returning thanks in case of success. Doubtless many would consider it as solemn mockery to see two duelists before their meeting, supplicatingGod’s blessing and protection in the hour of conflict, and then to see the victor returning thanks for his success in shedding the blood of his brother; and yet, when nations carry on the business by wholesale (if I may be allowed the expression) it is considered a very pious employment. The Lord has said, “And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you. Yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear, for your hands are full of blood.”
Penitent Christians may weep and mourn with propriety for their own sins and the sins of the nations, with a hearty desire not only to forsake their own iniquities, but that the nations may be brought to confess and forsake their sins and turn from them to the living God. It is true that war is a judgment in God’s providence. It is also a sin of the highest magnitude and ought to be repented of. It is a crime so provoking to Heaven that other calamities generally attend it. The famine, fire, and pestilence often attend its horrors and spread distress through a land. War, with its attending evils, unquestionably diminishes the aggregate of happiness in the world, and is therefore unwise.

continued:

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 2\t

________________________________________

WAR IS UNWISE

That the principles and practice of war are unwise I argue:

6. War is unwise, as it does not mend,
but injures, the morals of society

The strength, defense, and glory of a country consist primarily in the good moral character of its inhabitants. The virtuous and the good are the salt that preserves it from ruin. “It is manifest from the whole tenor of his word that God is slow to inflict heavy judgments upon a nation in which many of his people dwell; that he often spares it, spreads over it the protection of his providence, and finally delivers it for their sake; and, of course, that the presence of his beloved children, speaking after the manner of men, is a better defense than chariots and horsemen, a better defense than all the plans of mere politicians, than all the skill, courage, and activity of mere warriors.” Again, “I have no doubt that it is as great and precious a truth at this day as it ever was, that a praying people are, under God, the greatest security of a nation.” [3]
When the inhabitants of a country become generally profane and dissolute in their manners, slaves to dissipation and vice, it is usually God’s providence soon to visit them in his wrath and let loose the instruments of his destroying vengeance. How important, therefore, in a temporal point of view, is the preservation of good morals to a nation. But no event has so powerful a tendency to destroy the morals of a people as that of actual war. It draws the attention of the inhabitants from useful employments; it generates curiosity, dissipation, and idleness, and awakes all the furious passions of men.
War occasions a great profanation of the Sabbath. Under God’s providence the Sabbath has always been a great barrier against vice, and the observance of it is indispensable to good morals.
In time of war the Sabbath among soldiers is often a day of parade. In the streets of the best-regulated cities may be seen soldiers marching, flags flying, drums and fifes playing, and a rabble of children following in the train. All this is not only calculated to dissipate all reverential respect for the solemnities of the day among the soldiers, but is calculated to destroy the respect and observance of the day with which the children and youth have been inspired. Add to this, flags are suspended from the windows of taverns and grogshops to entice in the youth by the intoxicating cup. In the camp the Sabbath is almost forgotten and rendered a common day. Armies from professing Christian nations as often begin offensive operations on the Sabbath as on any other day; and professing Christians not only tolerate all this but also approve of it as a work of necessity and mercy.
War occasions dishonesty. In countries where armies are raised by voluntary enlistment, all kinds of deception and art are practiced by recruiting officers, and connived at by their governments, to induce the heedless youth to enlist. The honor and glory of the employment is held up to view in false colors; the importance of their bounty and wages are magnified; the lightness of the duty and opportunities for amusements and recreation are held out; and probably one half have the assurances of being noncommissioned officers, with a flattering prospect of a speedy advancement; and prospects of plunder are also held out to their cupidity. These deceptive motives are daily urged under the stimulating power of ardent spirits and the fascinating charms of martial music and military finery. Many a young man who has entered the rendezvous from curiosity or for the sake of a dram, without the least idea of joining the army, has been entrapped into intoxication, and his hand then grasped the pen to seal his fate.
Recruits, after joining the army, find from experience that most of the allurements held out to them to enlist were but a deception, and from lust and want they often become petty thieves and plunderers to repay them for their great privations, fatigues, and sufferings.
War occasions drunkenness – one of the greatest evils and most destructive to morality, as a multitude of other vices necessarily follow in its train. Many a young man has entered the military ranks temperate, and has returned from them a sot. All the enticements of liquor are exhibited in the most inviting forms to youth in the streets by the recruiting officer, to tempt them to enlist; and while those who have enrolled themselves remain at the-rendezvous, they are probably every day intoxicated with the inebriating poison, soul and body, and soon the habit becomes confirmed. While in actual service, their fatigues are so great that they greedily lay hold on the destroying liquor wherever they can find it to exhilarate their languid frames, even if they had not before acquired an insatiable thirst; and soon this detestable evil will become so enchanting that they will not only barter away their wages for it, but their necessary clothing. If they survive the campaign and return to their homes, they are often the visitors of grogshops and taverns, and by their marvelous stories attract the populace around them, who must join them in circulating the cup; and thus they spread this destroying evil all around.
War occasions profaneness. Profaneness is an abomination in the sight of God: “For the Lord will not hold him guiltless who taketh his name in vain.” Profaneness draws down the judgments of heaven, “for because of swearing the land mourneth.”
That soldiers are generally considered more profane than other men is evident, because it has become a proverb that “such a person is as profane as a soldier, or a sailor.” Young men who have been taught to revere the name of the God of their fathers may shudder at the awful profanations that fill their ears when they first enter an army; but if destitute of grace in the heart, the sound will soon cease to offend, and they will eagerly inhale the blasphemous breath and become champions in impiety. For want of habit they may not swear with so easy a grace as the older soldiers; they will for that reason make great exertions and invent new oaths, which will stimulate their fellows again to exceed in daring impiety. Seldom does a soldier return from the camp without the foul mouth of profanity. It is astonishing to think that those who are most exposed to death should be most daring in wickedness!
War occasions gambling. A great proportion of the amusements of the camp are petty plays at chance, and the stake usually a drink of grog. The play is fascinating. Multitudes of soldiers become established gamblers to the extent of their ability, and often, if they return to society, spread the evil among their neighbors.
War begets a spirit of quarreling, boxing, and dueling; and no wonder that it should, for the whole business of war is nothing else but quarreling and fighting. The soldier’s ambition is to be a bully, a hero, and to be careless of his own life and the lives of others. He is therefore impatient in contradiction, receives an insult where none was intended, and is ready to redress the supposed injury with the valor of his own arms, for it will not do for soldiers to shrink from the contest and be cowards.
War destroys the habits of industry and produces idleness. Industry is necessary to good morals as well as to the wealth and happiness of a country, and every wise government will take all laudable means to encourage it; but a large proportion of common soldiers who may return from the armies have lost the relish and habits of manual labor and are often found loitering about in public places, and if they engage in any kinds of labor, it is with a heavy hand and generally to little purpose. They therefore make bad husbands, unhappy neighbors, and are worse than a dead weight in society. Their children are badly educated and provided for, and trained up to demoralizing habits, which are handed down from generation to generation.
These immoralities, and many more that might be named, are not confined to soldiers in time of war, but they are diffused more or less through the whole mass of community; and war produces a general corruption in a nation, and is therefore unwise, even in a temporal point of view. But when we consider the natural effects of these immoralities on the souls of men, all temporal advantages are in comparison annihilated. In this school of vice, millions are ripening for eternal woe. The destroying influence will spread and diffuse itself through the whole mass of society unless the spirit of the Lord lifts up a standard against it.
The state of morals, so much depressed by the American Revolution, was only raised by the blessed effusions of God’s holy spirit. If war does actually demoralize a people, then no wise person can consistently engage in it.

continued:

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 2\t

________________________________________

WAR IS UNWISE

That the principles and practice of war are unwise I argue:

7. War is unwise, as it hazards eternal things for
only a chance of defending temporal things

Said our blessed Savior: “For what is a man profited, if he should gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?”
The loss of a soul infinitely exceeds all finite calculations. It is not only deprived forever and ever of all good but is plunged into inexpressible and everlasting misery. All temporal things dwindle to nothing when placed in comparison with eternal realities. The rights, liberties, and wealth of nations are of little value compared with one immortal soul. But it is astonishing to think that millions and millions have been put at everlasting hazard only for the chance of defending temporal things!
The habits and manners of a soldier’s life are calculated, as we have already seen, to demoralize them, to obliterate all early serious impressions, to introduce and confirm them in the most daring wickedness, and fit them for everlasting destruction. And notwithstanding, God may have occasionally, to display his sovereign power, snatched some soldiers from the ranks of rebellion and made them the heirs of his grace, yet no sober Christian will say that the army is a likely place to promote their salvation; but, on the contrary, must acknowledge that it is a dangerous place for the souls of men. It may be assumed as an undeniable fact that the great mass of soldiers are notoriously depraved and wicked. With but few exceptions, their impiety grows more daring the longer they practice war; and when it is considered that thousands and thousands of such are prematurely hurried by war into eternity, with all their sins unpardoned, what an amazing sacrifice appears only for some supposed temporal good. But when it is remembered that this infinite sacrifice is made merely for the chance of obtaining some temporal advantage, the folly of war appears in more glaring colors, as the battle is not always to the strong. Those who are contending for their rights, and are least in the wrong, are about as often unsuccessful as otherwise, and then they very much increase their evils in a temporal point of view. A wise man would not engage in a lawsuit to recover a cent, admitting that it was his just due, if the trial put to the hazard his whole estate. But this bears no comparison with one soul in competition with all temporal things; and yet men, professing to be wise, not only put one soul at hazard but millions, not for the chance of defending all temporal good, but often for a mere bubble, the hollow sound of honor; and many of those who are watching for souls, and must give an account, instead of sounding the alarm, approve of it.
All who engage in war, either in the field or otherwise, practically regard time more than eternity, and temporal more than eternal things. If souls are of more value than temporal things, and eternity of more consequence than time, it must be unwise to engage in a war and put souls to immediate hazard of everlasting ruin, and totally wrong for Christians to engage in it.

continued:

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 2\t

________________________________________

WAR IS UNWISE

That the principles and practice of war are unwise I argue:

8. War is unwise, as it does not answer the
professed end for which it is intended

The professed object of war generally is to preserve liberty and produce a lasting peace; but war never did and never will preserve liberty and produce a lasting peace, for it is a divine decree that all nations who take the sword shall perish with the sword. War is no more adapted to preserve liberty and produce a lasting peace than midnight darkness is to produce noonday light.
The principles of war and the principles of the gospel are as unlike as heaven and hell. The principles of war are terror and force, but the principles of the gospel are mildness and persuasion. Overcome a man by the former and you subdue only his natural power, but not his spirit; overcome a man by the latter, and you conquer his spirit and render his natural power harmless. Evil can never be subdued by evil. It is returning good for evil that overcomes evil effectually. It is, therefore, alone the spirit of the gospel that can preserve liberty and produce a lasting peace. Wars can never cease until the principles and spirit of war are abolished.
Mankind has been making the experiment with war for ages to secure liberty and a lasting peace; or, rather, it has ostensibly held out these objects as a cover to its lusts and passions. And what has been the result? Generally the loss of liberty, the overturning of empires, the destruction of human happiness, and the drenching of the earth with the blood of man.
In most other pursuits, mankind generally gains wisdom by experience; but the experiment of war has not been undertaken to acquire wisdom. It has, in fact, been undertaken and perpetuated for ages to gratify the corrupt desires of men. The worst of men have delighted in the honors of military fame and it is what they have a strong propensity for; and how can a Christian take pleasure in that employment which is the highest ambition of ungodly men? The things that are highly esteemed among men are an abomination in the sight of God. Is it not, therefore, important that everyone naming the name of Christ should bear open testimony against the spirit and practice of war, and exhibit the spirit and temper of the gospel before the world that lies in wickedness, and let their lights shine before men?
But what can the men of the world think of such Christians as are daily praying that wars may cease to the ends of the earth, while they have done nothing and are doing nothing to counteract its destructive tendency? Alas! Too many are doing much by their lives and conversation to support its spirit and principles. Can unbelievers rationally suppose such prayers to be sincere? Will they not rather conclude that they are perfect mockery? What would be thought of a man daily praying that the means used for his sick child might be blessed for his recovery, when he was constantly administering to him known poison? With the same propriety do those Christians pray that war may come to a final end, while they are supporting its vital principles.
It is contrary to fact that war is calculated to preserve liberty and secure a lasting peace; for it has done little else but destroy liberty and peace and make the earth groan under the weight of its terror and distress.
It is contrary to the word of God that war is calculated to promote peace on earth and good will toward men. The law that is to produce this happy effect will not be emitted from the council of war or the smoke of a camp. Instead, the law shall go forth out of Zion, the Lord shall rebuke the strong nations, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Then nations shall no more lift up sword against nation; neither shall they learn the art of war any more. Then shall the earth be filled with the abundance of peace and there shall be nothing to hurt or destroy. It is reserved alone for the triumph of the gospel to produce peace on earth and good will to men.

If war does actually provoke insult and mischief; if it increases difficulties, destroys property and liberty; if it diminishes happiness, injures the morals of society, hazards eternal for only the chance of defending temporal things, and, finally, does not answer the end for which it was intended, then it must be very unwise to engage in it, and it must be wrong for Christians to do anything to promote it, and right to do all in their power to prevent it.

continued:

Christ Jesus did not come here to bring peace, nor was He a religious person, nor did He teach a religion...

c52 wrote:

Christ Jesus did not come here to bring peace, nor was He a religious person, nor did He teach a religion...

So, what was his purpose? Would you please define "nor was he a religious person" - the meaning of this phrase (or your entire post) has such a broad range, I do not know where you are coming from? Or, better yet, explain your self....

ginnyrose

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 3\t

________________________________________

WAR IS CRIMINAL

I am now to show that war, when judged on the principles of the gospel, is highly criminal.

1. Going to war is not keeping from the appearance
of evil, but is running into temptation

I would have it understood that I consider every act of mankind which is palpably contrary to the spirit and precepts of the gospel criminal. It is an express precept of the gospel to abstain from all appearance of evil. “Watch and pray that ye enter not into temptation” is also an express command of Christ. A person desiring not only to abstain from evil, but from the very appearance of it, will suffer wrong rather than hazard that conduct which may involve doing wrong. He will be so guarded that, if he errs at all, he will be likely to give up his right when he might retain it without injuring others. No person, it is believed, will attempt to maintain that there is no appearance of evil in carnal warfare, or that it is not a scene of great temptation.
One great object of the gospel is to produce good morals, to subdue the irascible passions of men, and bring them into sweet subjection to the gospel of peace. But war cannot be prosecuted without rousing the corrupt passions of mankind. In fact, it is altogether the effect of lust and passion. In times of war, almost every measure is taken for the express purpose of inflaming the passions of men, because they are the vital springs of war, and it would not exist without them. Those who are engaged in war, both in the council and in the field, have a feverish passion that varies as circumstances may happen to change. Those who are actually engaged in the heat of battle are usually intoxicated with rage. Should this be denied by anyone, I would appeal to the general approbation bestowed on the artist who displays most skill in painting scenes of this kind. He who can represent the muscular powers most strongly exerted, the passions most inflamed, and the visage most distorted with rage, will gain the highest applause. The truth of the assertion is, therefore, generally admitted. Some men, perhaps, may be so much under the influence of pride as to have the appearance of stoical indifference when their antagonists are at some distance, but let them meet sword in hand and the scene is at once changed.
The temptations for those who constitute, or those who encourage and support, armies to commit or to connive at immorality are too various and too multiplied to be distinctly mentioned.
Who can deny that war is altogether a business of strife? “But,” said an inspired apostle, “where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.” If war is a scene of confusion and strife and every evil work, it is impossible for anyone to engage in it and avoid the appearance of evil or be out of the way of temptation; those who are armed with deadly weapons and thirsting for the blood of their fellow-mortals surely cannot be said to exhibit no appearance of evil. But, if engaging in wars is putting on the appearance of evil and running into temptation, then it is highly criminal to engage in it.

Continued:

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 3\t

________________________________________

WAR IS CRIMINAL

I am now to show that war, when judged on the principles of the gospel, is highly criminal.

2. War is criminal, as it naturally inflames the pride of man

One of the abominable things that proceed out of the corrupt heart of man, as represented by our Savior, is pride. “God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.” “The Lord hates a proud look.” “Everyone that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord.” That pride is criminal and that humility is commendable will doubtless be admitted by all who believe the Scriptures.
Pride, however, is one of the chief sources of war. It is pride that makes men glory in their strength and prowess. It is pride that hinders them from confessing their faults and repairing the injury done to others.
Although pride is commonly condemned in the abstract, yet it is generally commended in soldiers and fanned by every species of art and adulation, not only by men of the world but too often by those who bear the Christian name. And why is it necessary to inflame the pride of soldiers? Because it is well understood that soldiers without pride are not fit for their business.
If war is a Christian duty, why shouldn’t the example and precepts of Christ, instead of the example of the heroes of this world, be exhibited to those who fight to stimulate them? Isn’t Christ as worthy of imitation as the Caesars and Alexanders of this world? He was a triumphant conqueror; he vanquished death and hell, and purchased eternal redemption for his people; but he conquered by resignation and triumphed by his death. Here is an example worthy of the highest emulation. And why not animate soldiers by it? Only because it would unnerve their arms for war and render them harmless to their foes.
It is so common to compliment the pride of soldiers that, instead of considering it that abominable thing which the Lord hates, they consider it a virtue. We frequently hear “gentlemen of the sword,” as they are styled, in reply to the flattery bestowed upon them, frankly declare that it is their highest ambition to obtain the praise of their fellow-citizens; and, of course, they confess that they are seeking the praise of men more than the praise of God. These gentlemen, however, are far less criminal than those who lavish flattery on them. Doubtless, most of them are sincere and think themselves in the way of their duty, while their profession often leads them, necessarily, from the means of knowing correctly what is duty. While professing Christians have been taught from their cradles that the profession of arms is not merely an allowable but a noble employment, it is easy for them to slide into the current and go with the multitude to celebrate victories and to eulogize heroes, without once reflecting whether they are imitating their Lord and Master. But is it not time for Christians to examine and ascertain if war is tolerated in the gospel of peace before they join in festivities to celebrate its bloody feats? A pagan would be astonished if he had been taught the meek, lowly, and forgiving spirit and principles of the gospel, without knowing the practice of Christians, to see a host of men, professing to be influenced by these blessed principles, marshaled in all the pomp of military parade, threatening destruction to their fellow mortals! Would he not conclude that either he or they had mistaken the genius of the gospel, or that they believed it to be but a fable?
It is a notorious fact, which requires no confirmation, that military men, decorated with finery and clad in the glitter of arms, instead of being meek and lowly in their temper and deportment, are generally flushed with pride and haughtiness; and, indeed, what purpose do their decorations and pageantry answer but that of swelling their vanity? Their employment is not soft and delicate. Other men who follow rough employments wear rough clothing; but the soldier’s occupation is not less rough than the butcher’s, though, in the world’s opinion, it is more honorable to kill men than to kill cattle.
But if war has a natural tendency to inflame, and does inflame and increase the pride of men, it is criminal; it does that which the Lord hates, and it must be highly criminal to engage in it.

Continued:

Pastor,
Interesting points....will make a comment...

Pride - it being a motivating factor in propelling a person to fight: reminds me what the Islamic radicals promise their suicide bombers: they appeal to their lusts (or pride) to entice them to die for their cause.

Interesting...can't get away from it, can you? I am more and more amazed how really pride is at the root of all sin.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Annie wrote:

I just read today on a forum that someone posted ---- A church had given out an award pin to the one they thought was "Humblest" --- but took it away when they wore it to Church. LOL.

LOL! I love that! But the point is well taken: we wrestle with pride...this is the heart of all sin.

Mind if I share that in our church bulletin?

ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:
Pastor,
Interesting points....will make a comment...

Pride - it being a motivating factor in propelling a person to fight: reminds me what the Islamic radicals promise their suicide bombers: they appeal to their lusts (or pride) to entice them to die for their cause.

Interesting...can't get away from it, can you? I am more and more amazed how really pride is at the root of all sin.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hi ginnyrose,

Thank you for your comments, they are much appreciated.

Yes, pride is something we seem to have a hard time getting away from; seems we pray Father, thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven and then we do it our way. Kind of reminds one of our adversary, or even the couple he tempted to sin, seems pride had a bit to do with the fall, doesn’t it?

Isaiah 14:12-14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! [13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: [14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Genesis 3:4-5
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

We have been well trained, give up all; except the pride, and after all, you must have pride to be able to please man. After all, without pride we will lose our freedom and without freedom, how can we make it. I wonder what the disciples would say about not being able to effectively serve the Lord unless you are free; what an illusion. I think it may be time to loose the pride thing and look to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

Faith placed in Him and not in self or any other pride. What a root it is, seems it will take the SON of God to pull it out of… all who truly seek Him.

No ginnyrose, I can’t get away from:

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Even, I would suspect freedom from pride. Maybe we are not as free as we think.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Pastor wrote:

Maybe we are not as free as we think.

Exactly.

Just today I was tempted to demand something that was due ME, but the HS said "no, don't". Did you notice I said "ME'? Where is it? It is MINE!

So, do I let it go? Got to give it up. A small lesson, but each small one will prepare us for a larger one.

All of this dovetails into what non-resistance is like in everyday living.

And besides, this thing will eventually burn up, anyways. Reminds me of a story a pastor one time said:

He has a friend who is a skilled carpenter, building houses. He will go into the finest house, look around and say, "Yup, this thing will burn up some day!"

Thanks! for the thread, pastorfrin.

ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:
Pastor wrote:

Maybe we are not as free as we think.

Exactly.

Just today I was tempted to demand something that was due ME, but the HS said "no, don't". Did you notice I said "ME'? Where is it? It is MINE!

So, do I let it go? Got to give it up. A small lesson, but each small one will prepare us for a larger one.

All of this dovetails into what non-resistance is like in everyday living.

And besides, this thing will eventually burn up, anyways. Reminds me of a story a pastor one time said:

He has a friend who is a skilled carpenter, building houses. He will go into the finest house, look around and say, "Yup, this thing will burn up some day!"

Thanks! for the thread, pastorfrin.

ginnyrose

Hi ginnyrose,

Is it Mine? If it is, I don't think it is worth having, because it will burn up. The only things that will last are from the Lord, so yup, everything made by man, no matter how grand and glorious, will burn up.
I wonder if the reason it will burn, is actually the item, or the pride that built it.

You are very welcome Sister,

May His grace remove Mine and replace it with HIS, then I will be able to give all that others may see Jesus and live.

In His Love
pastorfrin

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 3\t

________________________________________

WAR IS CRIMINAL

I am now to show that war, when judged on the principles of the gospel, is highly criminal.

3. War necessarily infringes on the consciences
of men, and therefore is criminal

Liberty of conscience is a sacred right delegated to man by his Creator, who has given no authority to man to infringe in the least on the conscience of his fellow man. Though a man, by following the dictates of his conscience, may be injured by men, yet they have no authority to deprive him of the rights of conscience. To control the conscience is alone the prerogative of God. That man has no right to violate the conscience of his fellow man is a truth that few, under the light of the gospel, since the days of ignorance and superstition, have ventured to call in question.
But military governments, from their very nature, necessarily infringe on the consciences of men. Though the word of God requires implicit obedience to rulers in all things not contrary to the Scriptures, it utterly forbids compliance with such commands as are inconsistent with the gospel. We must obey God rather than man, and fear God as well as honor the king. But governments, whether monarchial or republican, make laws as they please, and compel obedience at the point of the sword. They declare wars, and call upon all their subjects to support them.
Offensive war, by all professing Christians, is considered a violation of the laws of Heaven; but offensive war is openly prosecuted by professing Christians under the specious name of self-defense. France invaded Spain, Germany, and Russia; England invaded Holland and Denmark; and the United States invaded Canada, all under the pretense of defensive war. The fact is, however, that no man can, on gospel principles, draw a line of distinction between offensive and defensive war so as to make the former a crime and the latter a duty, simply because the gospel has made no such distinction. But while many Christians profess to make the distinction, and to consider offensive war criminal, they ought to have the liberty to judge, when war is waged, whether it is offensive or defensive, and to give or withhold their aid accordingly; otherwise they are not permitted the free exercise of their consciences.
But suppose this principle was adopted by governments. Could they prosecute war while they left every individual in the free exercise of his conscience to judge whether such war was offensive or defensive and to regulate his conduct accordingly? Would it be possible for governments to carry on war if they depended for support on the uncertain opinion of every individual? No, such a procedure would extinguish the vital strength of war and lay the sword in the dust. The fact is well known, and monarchs declare war and force their subjects to support it. In republican governments, the majority declares war and demands and enforces obedience from the minority.[4]
Though the constitutions of governments may, in the most solemn manner, guarantee to citizens the free exercise of their consciences, yet governments find it a practical necessity to make an exception in relation to war, and a man may plead conscientious motives in vain to free himself from contributing to the support of war.
I think it proper here to notice what has appeared to me a gross absurdity among some Christians in this land. They have openly declared that, in their opinion, the late war [5] was offensive; that it was contrary to the laws of God, and that they were opposed to it; but though they wished not to support it because it was criminal, yet they said, if they were called on in a constitutional way, they would support it. Thus did they publicly declare that they would, under certain circumstances, obey man rather than God.
But soldiers actually resign their consciences to their commanders, without reserving any right to obey only in such cases as they may judge not contrary to the laws of God. Were they at liberty to judge whether commands were morally right or not, before they yielded obedience, it would be totally impracticable for nations to prosecute war. Ask a general if his soldiers have the privilege of determining whether his commands are right or not, and he will tell you it is their duty only to obey.
Suppose that a general and his army are shut up in a city in their own country, and that provisions are failing; that an army is advancing for their relief, but cannot reach the place until all means of sustenance will be consumed; that the inhabitants cannot be let out without admitting the besiegers; and that in this extremity, to preserve his army for the defense of his country, the commander orders his men to slay the inhabitants, doing this evil that good may come. But some conscientious soldiers refuse to obey a command to put the innocent to the sword for any supposed good. What must be the consequence? Their lives must answer for their disobedience. Nor is this contrary to the usages of war. And Christians satisfy their consciences upon the false principle that soldiers are not accountable for their conduct, be it ever so criminal, if they obey their commanders; all the blame must fall on the officers, which involves the absurdity of obeying man rather than God. Thus soldiers must be metamorphosed into something besides moral and accountable beings in order to prosecute war; and, in fact, they are treated generally not as moral agents but as a sort of machinery to execute the worst of purposes.
The only plausible method of which I can conceive to avoid the above consequences requires that soldiers should not, for all practical purposes, resign their consciences, but, when commands which are morally wrong are given, that they should refuse obedience and die as martyrs. But to enter an army with such views would be to belie the very oath of obedience that they take. Besides, who could execute the martyrs and be innocent? In this way all might become martyrs, and the army be annihilated.
But if war does not admit the free exercise of conscience on Christian principles, then it is criminal for Christians to become soldiers, and the principles of war must be inconsistent with the principles of Christianity.

Continued:

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 3\t

________________________________________

WAR IS CRIMINAL

I am now to show that war, when judged on the principles of the gospel, is highly criminal.

4. War is criminal, as it is opposed to patient
suffering under unjust and cruel treatment

That patient suffering under unjust and cruel treatment from mankind is everywhere in the gospel held up to view as the highest Christian virtue, probably few professing Christians will deny.
But notwithstanding this truth is generally admitted, there is very commonly introduced a carnal, sophisticated mode of reasoning to limit, or explain away, this precious doctrine, which is peculiar to the gospel and which distinguishes it from all other kinds of morality and religion on earth. It has relation, it is said, only to matters of religion and religious persecution – as if the gospel required mankind actually to regard a little wealth and a few temporal things more than all religious privileges and life itself; for, by this human maxim, men may fight to defend the former, but not the latter. And this maxim is built on the supposition that Christians are not bound strictly by gospel precepts in relation to temporal things, but only in relation to spiritual things. Hence it is said that the martyrs conducted themselves nobly in refusing to fight for the privilege of worshiping the true God, but if Christians now refuse to fight to defend their money and their political freedom, then they act in a dastardly manner and violate the first principles of nature. Thus are temporal regarded more than spiritual and everlasting things.
The precepts of the gospel, however, unequivocally forbid returning evil for evil, and enjoin patient sufferings under injurious and cruel treatment. A few instances shall be quoted: “Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient towards all men. See that none render evil for evil to any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and unto all men.” “If, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.” The apostle James, in his solemn denunciation against oppressors, said, “Ye have condemned and killed the just, and he doth not resist you.” He then immediately exhorts the Christians, saying, “Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.” “Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one for another, love as brethren, be tenderhearted, be courteous, not rendering evil for evil, railing for railing; but blessings instead, knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.” “For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayers; but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?”
A patient, forbearing, and suffering disposition is peculiar to the lamb-like temper of the gospel, and is wholly opposed to the bold, contending, and daring spirit of the world that leads mankind into quarreling and fighting.
It is generally admitted, I believe, that it is the duty of Christians patiently to suffer the loss of all temporal things, and even life itself, rather than willfully violate any of God’s commands. If, then, it is the duty of a Christian patiently to suffer death rather than bear false witness against his neighbor, be he friend or foe, is it not equally his duty patiently to suffer death rather than kill his neighbor, whether friend or foe? Not merely taking away the life of our neighbor is forbidden, but every exercise of heart and hand that may have a natural tendency to injure him. But which is the greatest evil: telling a lie, or killing a man? By human maxims you may do the latter to save your life, but not the former – though the former might injure no one but yourself, while the latter, besides injuring yourself, might send your neighbor to eternal destruction.
The spirit of martyrdom is the true spirit of Christianity. Christ himself meekly and submissively died by the hands of his enemies, and instead of resistance, even by words, he prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Stephen, when expiring under a shower of stones from his infuriate murderers, prayed, “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.” St. Paul testified that he was not only ready to be bound, but to die for the Lord Jesus. The early martyrs resigned their lives with patient submission as witnesses for Jesus – and this at a time when “Tertullian has told us that Christians were sufficiently numerous to have defended themselves against the persecutions excited against them by the heathen, if their religion had permitted them to have recourse to the sword.” [6]
The spirit of martyrdom is the crowning test of Christianity. The martyr takes joyfully the spoiling of his goods, and counts not his life dear to himself. But how opposite is the spirit of war to the spirit of martyrdom! The former is bold and vindictive, ready to defend property and honor at the hazard of life, ready to shed the blood of an enemy. The latter is meek and submissive, ready to resign property and life rather than injure even an enemy. Surely patient submission under cruel and unjust treatment is not only the highest Christian virtue, but also the most extreme contrast to the spirit of war.
If it is a duty required by the gospel not to return evil for evil, but to overcome evil with good; to suffer injustice and to receive injury with a mild, patient, and forgiving disposition; not only in words but in actions; then all kinds of carnal contention and warfare are criminal and totally repugnant to the gospel, whether engaged in by individuals or by communities.
Can it be right for Christians to attempt to defend with hostile weapons the things that they profess but little to regard? They profess to have their treasure not in this world but in heaven above, which is beyond the reach of earthly invaders, so that it is not in the power of earth or hell to take away their dearest interests. There may be a propriety in the men of the world exclaiming that their dearest rights are invaded when their property and political interests are infringed upon; but it is a shame for Christians to make this exclamation, while they profess to believe that their dearest interest is in the hand of Omnipotence, and that the Lord God of hosts is their defense.
Whoever, without divine command, dares to lift his hand with a deadly weapon against the life of his fellow man, for any supposed injury, denies the Christian character in the very act, and relies on his own arm instead of relying on God for defense.

Continued:

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 3\t

________________________________________

WAR IS CRIMINAL

I am now to show that war, when judged on the principles of the gospel, is highly criminal.

5. War is criminal, as it is not doing to others
as we should wish them to do to us

Our blessed Savior said, “All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.” If we wish men to be kind and forbearing to us, we must be kind and forbearing to them; if we wish them to return love for hatred and good for evil, then we must return love for hatred and good for evil; if we wish not to be injured by men, then we must not injure them; if we wish not to be killed, then we must not kill.
But what is the practical language of war? Does the man who is fighting his fellow man and exerting all his strength to overcome him really wish to be overcome himself and to be treated as he is striving to treat his enemy? Can it be believed that England, in the late war, wished France to do to her what she endeavored to do to France; or that the latter really desired in return what she endeavored to inflict on England? If not, both violated this express precept of Christ.
None can say, consistently with the principles of the gospel, that they wish to be killed by their enemies; therefore none can, consistently with those principles, kill their enemies. But professing Christians do kill their enemies, and, notwithstanding all they may say to the contrary, their actions speak louder than their words. It is folly for a man to say he does not wish to do a thing while he is voluntarily exerting all his powers to accomplish it.
But if the act of war does violate this express precept of Christ, then it must be exceedingly criminal to engage in it.

Continued:

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 3\t

________________________________________

WAR IS CRIMINAL

I am now to show that war, when judged on the principles of the gospel, is highly criminal.

6. War is inconsistent with mercy, and is therefore criminal

Mercy is the grand characteristic of the gospel, and the practice of mercy is the indispensable duty of man. “Be ye merciful, as your Father also is merciful.” “For he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.” “For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy.”
Mercy is that disposition which inclines us to relieve distress, to forgive injuries, and to promote the best good of those who are not deserving. Mercy in us towards our enemies implies seeking and pursuing their best good for time and eternity. It is sinful to exercise any affection towards enemies short of that benevolence or mercy which involves the advancement of their best good, and Christians may not suspend this disposition, or do evil that any supposed good may come; for no law can be of higher authority than the express precept of Christ which requires this disposition towards enemies, and of course no other consideration can be paramount to this, for nations are as much bound as individuals.
It is surely too grossly absurd for any to pretend that destroying the property and lives of enemies is treating them mercifully, or pursuing their best good for time and eternity. Nor can any so impose upon their imaginations as to think that injuring mankind is treating them with benevolence or mercy.
But the direct object of war is injury to enemies; and the conduct of soldiers generally speaks a language not easily to be misunderstood. Though soldiers are not always as bad as they might be, their tender mercies are often but cruelty. When they storm a fortified place and do not put all the captives to the sword, they are complimented for exercising mercy, merely because they were not so cruel as they might have been. But shall a highway robber be called an honest man because he takes but half the money of him whom he robs? Is it an act of mercy, when a man encroaches on your property, to take away his life? Do nations exercise mercy towards each other when they enter into bloody wars in consequence of a dispute that shall govern a small portion of territory? Or does a nation show mercy to another that has actually invaded its rights by falling upon the aggressor and doing all the injury in its power? This surely is not forgiving injuries. And when two contending armies come in contact and rush on each other with all the frightful engines of death and cut each other to pieces, they do not appear to me as merciful, kind, and tender-hearted, forgiving one another in love, even as God for Christ’s sake forgives his children. Yet this is the rule by which they should act and by which they will at last be judged.
But the whole system of war is opposed to mercy, and is therefore altogether unlike the spirit of the gospel, and must be criminal.

Continued

Pastor,

The above article deals with mercy as opposed to the destruction of human life and property during war...and this brings me to a question and a comment or two...

Have you ever read the book "Silent Night" by Stanley Weintraub? I am trying so hard to read it but the authors' penchant for detail distracts me to a point of annoyance. Anyhow, to those uninformed about the topic of the book: the writer details the unofficial truce between waring factions on the front lines in WW1 on Christmas Day 1914 in Europe. Opposing forces left their trenches and exchanged gifts, cigarettes, songs, played together, buried their dead without official approval. And after [i]they[/i] - the higher ranking officers - found out about it, they were not amused and some found themselves demoted!

This is a must read for those who glorify war. The author of the book is a professional historian and is not written from a Chrstian perspecctive.

Thanks for posting this article, pastorfrin.

ginnyrose

Without reading this whole thread - what is the bottom line comparing your discussion about war and your moral duty as a citizen and Christian to defend your neighbor such as a situation where you have the opportunity to resist a crimnal (burglary) or rape or any other violent agression of a person to another where physical resistance even to the point of death might result. Would this be sin?

ginnyrose wrote:
Pastor,

The above article deals with mercy as opposed to the destruction of human life and property during war...and this brings me to a question and a comment or two...

Have you ever read the book "Silent Night" by Stanley Weintraub? I am trying so hard to read it but the authors' penchant for detail distracts me to a point of annoyance. Anyhow, to those uninformed about the topic of the book: the writer details the unofficial truce between waring factions on the front lines in WW1 on Christmas Day 1914 in Europe. Opposing forces left their trenches and exchanged gifts, cigarettes, songs, played together, buried their dead without official approval. And after [i]they[/i] - the higher ranking officers - found out about it, they were not amused and some found themselves demoted!

This is a must read for those who glorify war. The author of the book is a professional historian and is not written from a Chrstian perspecctive.

Thanks for posting this article, pastorfrin.

ginnyrose

Hi ginnyrose,

No, I have not read the book but am familiar with the story of the temporary truce. Sounds like a good read, where can I find it.
Thank you for your comments and as always Sister you are welcome.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi Peacemaker,

Good question,

and we can both thank He-Reigns for a good answer.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"But they are not prohibited from resisting, opposing, preventing, or counteracting the injuries inflicted, attempted or threatened by man on man, in the use of any absolutely un-injurious forces, whether moral or physical. On the contrary, it is their bounden duty, by all such benevolent resistances, to promote the safety and welfare, the holiness and happiness of all human beings, as opportunity may offer."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHRISTIAN NON-RESISTANCE by Adin Ballou

Thank you Sister,

In His Love
pastorfrin

"in the use of any absolutely un-injurious forces"

Pastorfrin,

Certainly not an easy issue - but I take it from this quote that if in the defense of another I was compelled to take an action against an aggressor who was seeking to inflict great bodily harm or seeking to take the life of an innocent victim that if I were in a positon where I was forced to take a life engaged in deadly criminal action to save another that I would be unjustified in this action and therefore in sin. Is this what you are saying?

Respectfully,

Peacemaker

Peacemaker wrote:

"in the use of any absolutely un-injurious forces"

Pastorfrin,

Certainly not an easy issue - but I take it from this quote that if in the defense of another I was compelled to take an action against an aggressor who was seeking to inflict great bodily harm or seeking to take the life of an innocent victim that if I were in a positon where I was forced to take a life engaged in deadly criminal action to save another that I would be unjustified in this action and therefore in sin. Is this what you are saying?

Respectfully,

Peacemaker

Hi Peacemaker,

Jesus said:

Matthew 5:38-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Rev. 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

I can only share with you what Jesus said and taught by example; is it a sin for me to harm another in any way for any reason? Yes.
Is it a sin for you? That is between you and the Lord Jesus Christ. Why not prayerfully ask Him, for He is the only one who can truly answer your question.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Peacemaker,

You asked questions many people ask when confronted with this issue: but what about "such and such a situation", how should a person respond? After I read your post yesterday, I have been thinking long and hard about a response so I will try to share mine here. But before I do, let me say I think Annie gave you a very good one. When I read it, I wondered what I could even add to it, but i hope that what i will share will help you in thinking through this issue. I am not God but God has been good to us and to Him goes all the honor and glory.

[b]Rape[/b]

This question comes up a lot: can a woman defend herslf against this violence against her body. Now let us look at rape.

Most of the stats on rape will tell you that 73% - depending on the source of info - of the perpetrators are known to the victims which means a fair number of these may be consensual, like an adult having sex with a minor. (I did jury duty recently where we had a situation exactly like this and according to law we had to indict him. From my experience at CPC I would say this is very common and not reported because it is consensual. Other then it being sin, it is very stupid for a male to do so because the female could get mad at him and report it and to the slammer he goes.)And according to the stats only 28% of reported rapes are by strangers. Now I would guess this rate in actuality would be smaller. It is more likely that a victim will report a strangers' act then an acquaintances'. Human nature.

Less then 5% result in conception.

Now what about the Christian female: what can she do? To be a victim would no doubt be traumatic. But is she without any recourse? What can she do to protect herself from violent males? The godly husband or dad will feel like strangling the perpetrator who would do such a thing to his wife or children. The reality is that these acts occur when he is elsewhere: the godly husband/father is NOT omnipresent: he cannot be everywhere at the same time to protect his wife and children, so what does he have to do? And the weaker persons, how can they protect themselves? All females have to deal with this issue, I think. I am 60 YO and I had to deal with it and I do not think I am unusual. I can share what I do and here is my testimony.....

I am by nature a small person - unlike Greg Gordon. I am less then 5 feet tall, weighed less then a 100 lbs. when I married. If a male wanted to assault me, he could easily overpower me because it would not take a large male to do so. So what are my choices? There are only two: cower in fear and become paranoid OR trust in the LORD for protection. The Scriptures instructs us how a godly woman should dress and with God's help I try to do so, listening to the voice of the Spirit for the details and being obedient to it. We all know males are tempted through the eye and it does not help any female to dress like a hooker and expect weak men to not sin. No godly female wants to be an enabler to anothers' sin. So, one works to cooperate with God in this area and then let HIM take the responcibility to protect you from evil men. With God's help, this I do. I trust Him completely and if I ever experience any fear in any degree, I know the Holy Spirit is warning me to exercise extreme caution and I pray more intently for His protection and guidance. I also know that if any act of violence were to occur to me, God would have allowed it and it is thus in my best interests to accept that and know he will provide the grace to cope.

On the practical level, other then dressing modestly and wearing a headcovering, I pray a lot before going to the city or when driving long distances. Something could always happen to the car and I could get stranded somewhere, putting me at the mercy of strangers. I have had car trouble and strange males have stopped to help me - they acted like it was a privilege to do so and I was grateful and told them so. No harm ever. Did God direct the steps of these helpers? Of this, I am certain. Brother, the reality is the choices are limited and with God's help I choose to trust him - it liberates one to LIVE - free from fear!

I am God's and it is His responcibility to care for me: I do what I can do to cooperate with Him and leave the rest to Him. This is the essense of my post.

God is good - all the time!

Blessings,
ginnyrose

ginnyrose,

this is an overdue respose to your last post to this thread. I have been giving the question alot of thought.

First let me thankyou for your transparency about the very real issue of violence against women. Clearly as a woman you better understand the reality of the built in power imbalance that exists between men and women, and the legitimate fear that all women must deal with in regards to their personal safety and how they would hope to respond when confronted in actuality. My prayer for you is that this has ownly been "theoretical" and not reality in what you've experienced. However I know all to well, even as a man how this plays out, and that for most of us - men and women, this has been personally experienced in many real situations.

For my part I have contributed both to actual and threatened violence to both my current wife, former wife, and children. This has always been wrong and sin. The reasons have been both in an attempt to accomplish my will, and in a futile effort to gain respect by the substitute of fear and intimidation through anger.

God doesn't work like this - but neither does that mean that there is never a "time to kill"

Oswald Chambers says that common sense in antagonism to revelation sense is rationalism but that revelation sense in antagonism to common sense is fanaticsm. I believe that Pacifisim as well as nonviolent resistance only is a form of fanaticsm that does not due justice to the true nature of God and/or to His call to us a Christians.

Without going into exhaustive detail the main points I have been meditating on are:

Jesus admonition regarding "not taking up the sword" hinges on our understanding of the word taking, and who he was talking to - he wasn't just addressing Peter. Metaphorically and in reality - Peter was not in that situation "authorized" to use the Sword. The question is why did he have a sword at all. Apparently in Luke the disciples asked Jesus about taking swords to the Garden and they decided that two was enough. Why did they have swords? In Luke these disciples asked Jesus about using the swords in response - before Jesus responded - Peter drew his. Why did Jesus not instruct them to leave their swords at home. My answer is that Jesus recognized the legitmate authorized use of the sword. One day he will wield it as well.

Other points.

Do unto others - I would hope that my neighbor would protect my family and not let them die if he had the power to prevent.

Clearly the sword was used legitimately in the old testament. God's nature, and therefore His nature in us has not changed.

Chronicles of Narnia - great battle - between good and evil - not always just metaphorical.

God gives specific rights and duties to govenment. If you say violence is immoral than public protection throught the state's legitmate police power is immoral, that national security is immoral etc etc. Perhaps this explains the irrational separation of Church and State concept in Christians minds where they condemn political involvement by accepting the protection and "immoral" conduct of others ie police and military, while simaltaneous condemning those that participate while they themselves act "holier than though"

Oswald Chambers was a military Chaplain to the troops in Egypt in World War I. Why didn't he just tell them to lay down their harms. Wasn't he immoral by helping them cope spiritally as they went out to do their duty which included killing.

Common sense says - if you are being violently (is there any other way) raped and you miraculously find a gun in your hand- blow his brains out! He who "takes up the sword" the perpetrator - shall die by the sword.

Revelation sense says - Oh my God - how can you ask me to participate and dare to wield your power of life and death - please help me to do your will and to not hold it against their account in heaven - foregive them for they know not what they do. Admonition for all in government, military, or those who find themselves confronted with the terrible decision. God help us to trust him for the right as we see the right.

Rob

So what is wrong with new discussion? It seems to me rehashing is the reason for everything on any of these posts. Is the topic dead? Frankly I don't appreciate the "subtle" admonition that I don't know what I'm talking about and that all issues are resolved. Give me a break. I may not find that my questions are answered.

What was your point without having to retrace pages of discussion? Who is worried about 8 months of discussion - sorry I wasn't involved. Let's stop trying to be so fair.

As you can tell I am a little offended by your tone?

Rob

ginnyrose,

the fact that you would even write this is disturbing - do your really think that God might use the issue that someone serving in the military as some sort of issue that he would point to to "deny" someone from heaven. Why not drinking, smoking, swearing, fornicating, lieing stealing, cheating, covetousness, etc etc. Is that the class of conduct you're ascribing to militaries in general - shame on you.

Pastorfrin,

You are right - I did overreact. Please accept my apology. For the record I have read quite abit of the thread, though not all. As a Christian Concliator I know that reconciliation is at the heart of the gospel - however there are things that substitute for peace, like with love, that aren't peace at all. This can generally be referred to as either peacebreaking or peacefaking. Either confronting in the wrong spirit over-agressively for the wrong purpose, or denying and avoiding the conflict altogether, not by spirtual direction but due to cowardice and fear. I think this is what I reacted against.

Again I am sorry that I took offense at your note. I was wrong.

I read today that you are having health problems. Know that my prayers are for you and your family, that God would give you courage, and strength, and peace.

Rob

Rob,

You raised some important issues and to them I would like to respond. Before I do so, I sense you want to do the right thing as most of us do. Of that I have no doubts.

I am sorry you have used violence in the past against females and that you now recognize the contributing mindset that allowed this to happen. So, you see, you are growing in knowledge! Bless you! Comes hard at times, does it not? Normal human response.

People who uphold the Biblical non-resistant position, do NOT say there is NO need of law enforcement, and them using violence to accomplish this. That is the role of the civil government. I know of a prison chaplain - who BTW, believes in non-resistance - say he understands the state has the right to execute criminals! Romans 13 describes in detail the role of the government: he is a minister of God to you for good (v. 4) so you need to be in subjection to it (v.5). And it does not bear the sword in vain (v.4). We would understand the roles of civil governmet to be totally different from the roles of the church. This is the issue: what applies to one does not apply to the other because their modus operandi is totally different. We must recognize that and respect it and honor it. This is why some are loathe to advise the government of [i]anything.[/i], even in moral issues. (I have worked in the pro-life movement for many years. While I support legislation banning abortions, I also know that if Christians and/or religious people would not abort their young, there would be very few abortions performed in the USA.)

About Oswald Chambers: he was a well respected man whose insights are appreciated by a wide range of people. So was he in error by serving as a chaplain to the military? Rob, this I do not know. This judgement belongs to God and I am content to leave it there. I have met a former intelligence officer, who was in the Navy, say how the Holy Spirit convicted him of his service in the military. He shared his convictions at a Bible Study in the Pentergon with other officers and no one mocked him! There semed to be an understanding, a sympathy to what he was hearing the HS tell him! Pastorfin, told us early on in this thread how the veterans are more sympathy to this position then those who have never seen combat! Something to consider.

[b]Rape[/b]

You make the point of a woman defending herself if faced with rape. Personally - and as I understand the Scriptures - I see nothing wrong in doing something practical to defend herself from a rapist, providing it will not put his life at risk. The probability of a woman having a gun in her hand when the attempt is made is highly unlikely. She, however, has at the end of her arm a weapon that if used judiciously, can send him running, wishing he had never tried it.

[b][i]God and His Wrath[/i][/b]

Those who hold to Biblical non-resistance say we need to get out of God's way so he can take care of evil people. We see a need for God to exercise HIS wrath. Our wrath is too fleshy: His is just. This is the essense of Biblical non-resistance. We are to love, work to win the ungodly to God. They need to see this love played out in the areas where the rubber meets the road. This is our duty.

Make sense?

I must go..my DH came in for lunch...must get him something to eat...

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Rob,
I thank you for your kind words, your prayers and your apology, which I do accept.
I am surprised at your apology to me, as I did not see a reason, to the ladies, Yes an apology would be in order. As with the question of violence for any reason being a sin; so I trust the Lord would lead you to an understanding with them.
Thank you again,

In His Love
pastorfrin

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 3\t

________________________________________

WAR IS CRIMINAL

I am now to show that war, when judged on the principles of the gospel, is highly criminal.

7. War is criminal, as it is inconsistent with forgiving
trespasses as we wish to be forgiven

Our Savior said: “If ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses.” “Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.”
Here it is evident that the everlasting salvation of men depends on their exercising forgiveness towards their enemies; for if they forgive not, they will not be forgiven of God, and with what measure they mete to others, it will be measured to them again.
To forgive is to pass by an offense, treating the offender not according to his desert, but as though he had done nothing amiss.
But do the principles of war lead individuals or nations to pass by offenses and to treat offenders as if they were innocent? Do they not, on the contrary, require justice and exact the very last mite? Has it the aspect of forgiveness for us, when an enemy trespasses on our rights, to arm with weapons of slaughter and meet him on the field of battle? Who, while piercing the heart of his enemy with a sword, can consistently utter this prayer: “Father, forgive my trespasses, as I have forgiven the trespasses of this my enemy”? But this, in reference to this subject, is the only prayer the gospel warrants him to make. And professing Christian nations, while at war and bathing their swords in each other’s blood to redress mutual trespasses, are daily in their public litanies offering this prayer; but is it not obvious that either their prayers are perfect mockery, or they desire not to be forgiven but to be punished to the extent of their deserts?
If individuals or nations desire that God would forgive their trespasses, then they must not only pray for it, but also actually exercise forgiveness towards those who trespass against them; and then they may beat their useless swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks and learn war no more.
But it must be very criminal to engage in war, or to tolerate it in any way, if it is inconsistent with the forgiveness of injuries as we hope to be forgiven, and in this respect violates the precepts of the gospel.

8. Engaging in war is not manifesting love
to enemies or returning good for evil

Returning good for evil and manifesting benevolence to enemies is, perhaps, the most elevated and noble part of Christian practice – the inculcation of which in the gospel exalts Christianity far above any other form of religion, and proves it to be not only divine but efficacious to subdue the turbulent and corrupt passions of men; and for these reasons this part of duty ought to be zealously advocated and diligently performed by everyone who bears the Christian name.
The ablest writers who have defended the divine origin of the Scriptures against infidels have urged this topic as constituting conclusive evidence in their favor. Unbelievers, instead of attempting to meet the argument fairly, have urged the inconsistency of Christians in acting contrary to so conspicuous a rule of duty. Such is and ever has been the most powerful weapon that infidels can wield against Christianity. But it is the will of God that by doing good we should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men. Let Christians act in strict conformity to this part of Christian practice, and they will wrest from the infidel’s hand his strongest weapon.
That exercising benevolence towards enemies and returning good for evil is inculcated as one of the most important doctrines of the gospel is evident as well from the whole tenor of the New Testament as from the express commands of the Son of God: “I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you, that ye may be the children of your Father in heaven.” “If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.” “Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”
Such are some of the divine precepts on this subject. So different, however, are the laws of war among Christian nations, that rendering comfort or relief to enemies is considered high treason, and they punish with death the performance of the very duty that God commands as a condition of eternal life!
The common sense of every man revolts from the idea that resisting an enemy by war is returning good for evil. Who would receive the thrust of a sword as an act of kindness? Was it ever considered that killing a man was doing good to him? Has not death always been considered the greatest evil that could be returned for capital crimes? But the principles of war not only allow enemies to return evil for evil by killing one another, but also secure the highest praise to him who kills the most. It is often said of those who distinguish themselves in butchering their fellow men that “they cover themselves with glory!”
Nations, when they go to war, do not so much as pretend to be actuated by love to their enemies. They do not hesitate to declare in the face of Heaven that their object is to avenge their wrongs. But, said an inspired apostle, “Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but give place unto wrath, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Retributive judgment, the execution of strict justice, or vengeance, God declares often, belongs to him. He has reserved it in his own hand as his sovereign prerogative.
It is not very surprising that savage pagans should glory in revenge, but that those should do so who have the Bible in their hands, and profess to take it as the rule of their faith and practice, is truly astonishing. It is still more astonishing that some ministers of the gospel not only connive at but also approve of the spirit and practice of revenge by war.
But though the whole tenor of the gospel absolutely enjoins returning good for evil and blessing for cursing; yet the open and avowed principles of war are to return evil for evil, and violence for violence.
If the principles of war are so directly opposed to the principles of the gospel, if the practice of war is so perfectly contrary to Christian practice, then it must be very criminal for Christians not to bear open testimony against war, and much more criminal to do anything to promote it.

Continued:

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 3\t

________________________________________

WAR IS CRIMINAL

I am now to show that war, when judged on the principles of the gospel, is highly criminal.

9. War is criminal, because it is
actually rendering evil for evil

It is a fact, which can neither be disguised nor disputed, that the whole trade of war is returning evil for evil. This is a fundamental principle in the system of self-defense. Therefore every exertion in the power of contending nations is made to inflict mutual injury, not merely upon persons in public employment and upon public property, but indiscriminately upon all persons and property. Hence it is an established rule of what is styled “civilized warfare” that if one party takes a person suspected of being a spy, they put him to death, which act is retaliated by the other the first opportunity. If one party storms a fortified place and puts the garrison or the inhabitants to the sword, the other, in their defense, must retaliate the same thing, and, if possible, to a greater degree. If one side executes a number of captives for some alleged extraordinary act, the other, on the principles of self-defense, may execute double the number. The first may then, on the same principles, double this number; and so they may proceed to return evil for evil, till one or the other yields.
The principles of self-defense require not merely an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but two eyes for one eye, and two teeth for one tooth. They require the retaliation of an injury to a double degree – otherwise, there would be no balance in favor of the defensive side. But, as both parties must always be on the defense, both must, of course, retaliate to a double degree. Thus war is aggravated and inflamed, and its criminality is raised to the highest pitch.
The doctrine of retaliation is not only openly avowed and practiced by professing Christian nations, but is sometimes defended before national councils by professing Christians of high standing in churches. “O! Tell it not in Gath! Publish it not in the streets of Askelon, lest the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph!”
That the retaliation of injury, of whatever kind it may be and to whomsoever it may be offered, is most absolutely and unequivocally forbidden by the whole spirit of the gospel dispensation, as well as by its positive precepts, surely can never be fairly disputed.
The great Author and finisher of our faith said, “Ye have heard that it hath been said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say unto you that ye resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” Whether the literal import of these words is contended for or not, they cannot fairly be construed as teaching anything short of a positive and unconditional prohibition of the retaliation of injury. Had our Lord added to these words the maxim of the world, “If any man assaults you with deadly weapons, you may repel him with deadly weapons,” it would have directly contradicted the spirit of this command and made his sayings like a house divided against itself.
The apostles largely insist upon this doctrine of their divine Master, thus: “Recompense to no man evil for evil.” “Be ye all of one mind, not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing.” “See that none render evil for evil to any man.” These comprehensive passages make no conditions or limitations, and are, therefore, applicable to all men and binding upon all in all situations and circumstances under the light of the gospel. But had they added, “If any man injures you, you may return him an injury and repel violence with violence,” it would have been most palpably absurd, and the precepts of the gospel would have been truly what infidels have asserted they are – a series of gross contradictions.
But I repeat that the open and avowed principles of war, even among Christian nations, are those of returning evil for evil. Surely, nations neither aim nor pretend to aim at the best good of their enemies; but, on the contrary, their real and professed object in the sight of God and man is to do them, while at war, all the injury in their power. What means that language which conveys instructions to those who command ships of war, to sink, burn, and destroy, if it does not mean evil to enemies? Why do nations encourage the cupidity of men by licensing and letting loose swarms of picaroons on their enemies, if it is not to inflict evil on them? But all this is sanctioned under the notion of self-defense, and, as though it were a light thing for men thus publicly to trample on the laws of the gospel, they lift up their daring hands to heaven and supplicate God’s help to assist them in violating his own commands! No apology can be made for such proceedings until it is shown that war is not returning evil for evil.
But what is it to return evil for evil?
When one man is injured by another and returns injury, he returns evil for evil and violates those precepts of the gospel which have been quoted. When one association of men is injured by another association and the injured returns an injury, evil is returned for evil and those precepts are violated. When one nation infringes on the rights of another and they in return infringe on the aggressor’s rights, they return evil for evil and violate those precepts. When one nation declares war against another and is repelled by war, evil is returned for evil and those precepts are violated. But these things are constantly practiced, without a blush or a question as to their propriety; and God is supplicated to aid in the business.
To what a state has sin reduced our world? Isn’t the church covered with darkness and the people with gross darkness? A man may now engage in war with his fellow man and openly return evil for evil, and still remain in respectable standing in most of the churches, being at the same time highly applauded and caressed by the world lying in wickedness!
But if we are here to be directed and at last to be judged by the gospel, no man can return evil for evil, in war or otherwise, without aggravated guilt.

Continued:

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 3\t

________________________________________

WAR IS CRIMINAL

I am now to show that war, when judged on the principles of the gospel, is highly criminal.

10. War is criminal, as it is actually
doing evil that good may come

That it is an evil to spread distress, desolation, and misery through a land and to stain it with the blood of men, probably none will deny. War, with its attending horrors, is considered by all, even those who advocate and prosecute it, to be the greatest evil that ever befalls this wicked, bleeding, suffering world.
Though men go to war primarily to gratify their corrupt passions – for they can never propose the attainment of any good by war which shall be commensurate with the natural and moral evils that will be occasioned by the acquisition – yet the prospect of attaining some supposed good must be held out as a lure to the multitude and a means of self-justification.
Usually, the object of war is pompously represented to be to preserve liberty, to produce honorable and lasting peace, and promote the happiness of mankind; and to accomplish this, liberty, property, and honor – that honor which comes from men – must be defended, though war is the very thing that generally destroys liberty, property, and happiness, and prevents lasting peace. Such is the good proposed to be attained by the certain and overwhelming evil of war.
But no maxim is more corrupt, more false in its nature, or more ruinous in its results than that which tolerates doing evil that good may come. Nor can any defend this maxim without taking the part of infidels and atheists, to whom it appropriately belongs, and with whose principles and practice alone it is consistent.
The apostle Paul reprobates this maxim in the severest terms, and he considered it the greatest scandal of Christian character to be accused of approving it: “As we be slanderously reported,” said he, “and as some affirm that we say, ‘Let us do evil that good may come,’ whose damnation is just.”
If war is in fact an evil, and it is prosecuted with a view to attain some good, then going to war is doing evil that good may come. It is therefore doing that which scandalizes Christian character; that which is wholly irreconcilable with the principles of the gospel, and which it is highly criminal for any man or nation to do.

11. War is opposed to the example of the
Son of God, and is therefore criminal

The example of the Son of God is the only perfect model of moral excellence, and his moral conduct, so far as he acted as man, remains a perfect example for Christians. But did he appear in this world as a great military character, wearing a sword of steel, clothed with military finery, and surrounded by glittering soldiers, marching in the pomp and parade of a warrior? No. He was the meek and lowly Jesus, despised and rejected of men. He was King of kings and Lord of lords, but his kingdom was not of this world. Had his kingdom been of this world, then would he have appeared as an earthly conqueror, and his servants would have been warriors.
Though a prince, he was the Prince of Peace. At his advent the angels sang, “Glory to God in the highest, on earth peace, good will to men.” “He came not to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” He was the Lamb of God, meek and lowly. He followed peace with all men; he returned good for evil and blessing for cursing, and “when he was reviled he reviled not again.” Finally, he was “brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.” That he did this as a necessary part of his mediatorial work need not be denied; but that he intended it also as an example to his followers is fully confirmed by an inspired apostle, who said, “If, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth; who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, threatened not; but committed himself to him who judgeth righteously.”
Christ taught his disciples the doctrines of peace and commanded them to take up the cross and follow him, to live in peace and to follow peace with all men. His last gift to them was peace. He said to them, when about to send them into the world, “Behold I send you forth as lambs among wolves,” thus teaching them what treatment they might expect and what character they must maintain among wicked men. The nature of lambs and wolves is too well known for anyone to mistake this figurative representation. Wolves are fierce, bloody, and ravenous beasts; but lambs are mild, inoffensive, and unresisting, having no means of relief but by flight. If a host of professing Christian warriors, marshaled under the ensign of a preying eagle or a prowling lion, clothed in all the splendor of deadly armor, and rushing forward to destroy their fellow creatures, are in figurative language but lambs, then I confess that I am at a loss where to look for the wolves! Do these warlike Christians appear mild as lambs and harmless as doves, kind and tenderhearted, doing good to all, to friends and foes, as they have opportunity? Can fighting be living peaceably with all men? Is it returning good for evil, and overcoming evil with good? If not, then it is not imitating the example of Christ.
If Christians were like Christ, their warfare would not be carnal, but spiritual, corresponding with the armor that he has provided. They would conquer by faith and overcome by the blood of the Lamb, not counting their lives dear to themselves.

On the whole, if to engage in war is not avoiding the appearance of evil, but is running into temptation; if it inflates the pride of men; if it infringes on the rights of conscience; if it is not forgiving trespasses as we wish to be forgiven; if it is not patient suffering under unjust and cruel treatment; if it is not doing to others as we would have them do to us; if it is not manifesting love to enemies and returning good for evil; if it is rendering evil for evil; if it is doing evil that good may come; and if it is inconsistent with the example of Christ, then it is altogether contrary to the spirit and precepts of the gospel and is highly criminal. If it is so, then Christians cannot engage in war or approve of it without incurring the displeasure of Heaven.
In view of the subject, if what has been said is in substance correct, and of this I desire the reader conscientiously to judge, then the criminality of war and its inconsistency with the gospel are undeniable.
It is admitted by all that war cannot exist without criminality somewhere, and generally where quarreling and strife are, there is blame on both sides. And how it is that many Christians, who manifest a laudable zeal to expose and counteract vice and wickedness in various other forms, are silent on the subject of war, silent as to those parts or practices of war which are manifestly and indisputably criminal, is to me mysterious. There has been a noble and persevering opposition against the inhuman and cruel practice of the slave trade, and by the blessing of God the efforts against it have been successful, probably for the time, beyond the most sanguine expectations. When the lawfulness of this practice was first called into question, it was violently defended by professing Christians as well as by others. Comparatively few Christians fifty years ago doubted the propriety of buying and holding slaves; but now a man advocating the slave trade could hardly hold a charitable standing in any of the churches in this vicinity. But whence has arisen so great a revolution in the minds of professing Christians on this subject? It has happened not because the spirit or precepts of the gospel have changed, but because they are better understood.
Christians who have been early educated to believe that a doctrine is correct, and who cherish a respect for the instructions of their parents and teachers, seldom inquire for themselves, after arriving at years of maturity, unless something special calls up their attention; and then they are too apt to defend the doctrine they have imbibed before they examine it, and to exert themselves only to find evidence in its favor. Thus, error is perpetuated from generation to generation until God, in his providence, raises up some to bear open testimony against it; and as it becomes a subject of controversy, one after another gains light, and truth is at length is disclosed and established. Hence it is the solemn duty of everyone, however feeble his powers, to bear open testimony against whatever error prevails, for God is able from small means to produce great effects.
There is at present in many of our churches, a noble standard lifted up against the abominable sin of intemperance, the greatest evil, perhaps, war excepted, in the land, and this destructive vice has already received a check from which it will never recover unless Christians relax their exertions. But if war is a greater evil than drunkenness, how can Christians remain silent respecting it and be innocent?
Public teachers consider it to be their duty boldly and openly to oppose vice. From the press and from the pulpit they denounce theft, profaneness, Sabbath breaking, and intemperance; but war is a greater evil than all these, for these and many other evils follow in its train.
Most Christians believe that in the millennial day all weapons of war will be converted into harmless farming tools, that wars will cease to the ends of the earth, and that the benign spirit of peace will cover the earth as the waters do the seas. But there will be then no new gospel, no new doctrines of peace; the same blessed gospel that we enjoy will produce “peace on earth and good will to men.” And is it not the duty of every Christian now to exhibit the same spirit and temper that will be then manifested? If so, let everyone “follow the things that make for peace,” and the God of peace shall bless him.

Continued:

WAR INCONSISTENT WITH THE
RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST

by David Low Dodge

\tPart 4\t

OBJECTIONS ANSWERED

As was proposed, a number of objections to the general sentiments that have been advocated shall be stated and answered.

1. What if we are attacked by an assassin?

Objection. Shall we stand still and suffer an assassin to enter our houses without resistance and let him murder our families and ourselves?
Answer. I begin with this because it is generally the first objection that is made to the doctrine of peace by all persons, high and low, learned and unlearned. It is an objection derived from a fear of consequences and not from a conviction of duty, and might with the same propriety have been made to the martyrs who, for conscience’ sake, refused to repel their murderers with carnal weapons. Now it is made to Christians who, for conscience’ sake, refuse at this day to resist evil. Let the consequences of nonresistance be what they may, no Christian will pretend that defense with carnal weapons is not criminal if the gospel really forbids it, for the command of the gospel is the rule of duty. But I presume that this objection arises altogether from an apprehension of consequences rather than from regard to duty.
Every candid person must admit that this objection is of no force, until the question whether the gospel does or does not prohibit resistance with deadly weapons is first settled. It might, therefore, justly be dismissed without further remark; but as mankind is often more influenced by supposed consequences than by considerations of duty, and as the objection is very popular, it may deserve a more particular reply.
In the first place, I would observe that the supposition of the objector relates to a very extreme case, a case which has very rarely, if ever, occurred to Christians holding to nonresistance with deadly weapons, and it bears little or no resemblance to the general principles or practices of war which are openly advocated and promoted by professing Christians. Should an event like that supposed in the objection take place, it would be a moment of surprise and agitation in which few could act collectedly from principle. The response would probably be made in perturbation of mind. But war between nations is a business of calculation and debate, affording so much time for reflection that men need not act from sudden and violent impulse, but may act from fixed principle. In this respect, therefore, war is a very different thing from what is involved in the objection, and it does not in the least affect the principles or practice of systematic warfare. It is not uncommon to hear persons who are hopefully pious, when pressed by the example and the precepts of Christ against war, acknowledge that most of the wars which have existed since the gospel dispensation cannot be justified on Christian principles. Yet these very persons are never heard to disapprove of the common principles of war, or to counteract them by their lives and conversation before a wicked world. On the contrary, they will often eulogize heroes, join in the celebration of victories, and take as deep an interest in the result of battles as the warriors of this world. If their conduct is called in question, they will attempt to justify it by pleading the necessity of self-defense, and immediately introduce the above objection, which is by no means parallel with the general principles and practices of all wars.
The truth is, war is a very popular thing with mankind, because war is so congenial to its natural dispositions; and, however gravely some men may, at times, profess to deplore its calamity and wickedness, it is too evident that they take a secret pleasure in the approbation of the multitude and in the fascinating glory of arms. We have reason to believe that this objection is often made merely to ward off the arrows of conviction that would otherwise pierce their consciences.
The objection, however, wholly overlooks the providence and promise of God. Assassins do not stroll out of the circle of God’s providence. Not only is their breath in his hand, but the weapons they hold are under his control. Besides, God’s children are dear to him, and he shields them by his protecting care, not suffering any event to befall them except such as shall be for his glory and their good. Whoever touches them touches the apple of his eye. He has promised to be a very present help to them in every time of need, and to deliver those who trust in him out of all their trouble. He will make even their enemies to be at peace with them. The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous and his ears are open to their prayers, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil; and who is he who will harm you if you are followers of that which is good? But if you suffer for righteousness’ sake, you should be happy, and not be afraid of their terror, or troubled. If God thus protects his children, who can be against them? Isn’t the arm of the Lord powerful to save, and a better defense to all who trust in him than swords and guns? Whoever found him unfaithful to his promises or unable to save? Aren’t the hosts of heaven at his command? Aren’t his angels swift to do his will? “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” “The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.” If the Lord is on their side, Christians have no cause to fear what man can do unto them. The blessed Savior said, “Whosoever will save his life shall lose it, and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.”
If consequences are rightly examined, they may prove to be of more importance than at first supposed. If the gospel does forbid resistance with deadly weapons, then he who saves his temporal life by killing his enemy may lose his eternal life, while he who loses his life for Christ’s sake is sure of everlasting life. Thus the Christian, if he is killed, goes to heaven; but the assassin, if he is killed, goes to hell, and the soul of the slayer is in danger of following. Whoever kills another to prevent being killed himself, does it on presumption, for, whatever may be the appearances, only God can know before the event has taken place whether one man will assassinate another. Men, however, seem to think little of killing or being killed by fighting, whether in single combat or on the field of general battle, though they shudder at the idea of being put to death by an assassin, unless they can inflict or attempt to inflict on him the same evil.
But the objection is usually made on the supposition that the doctrine in question requires Christians to stand still and rather court the dagger than otherwise. This is an unfair statement, for it would be presumption to stand still when there was a chance of escape. Besides, the Christian must act on the defensive, not with carnal, but with spiritual weapons, which are more powerful when exercised in faith than swords or spears.
Probably no instance can be found of robbers murdering such as conscientiously held to nonresistance. It is resistance that provokes violence; forbearance and good will repress it. But if instances of this kind may be found, it is no evidence against the doctrine in question any more than against the principles of the Martyrs. God may, for wise reasons, call away some of his children by the hands of murderers. If so, instead of losing, they save their lives.

Continued:

2. Self-defense is the first law of nature

Objection. Self-defense, and, if necessary, with deadly weapons, is the first law of nature. All of the animals in creation are armed with means of defense, and the principles of the gospel are not contrary to the principles of nature. Therefore, self-defense is not inconsistent with Christianity.

Answer. It is admitted that the laws of the gospel are not contrary to the primitive laws of nature, but it is by no means granted that they are consistent with the laws of corrupt nature. In consequence of the revolt of man, the earth was cursed for his sake. It appears probable that, before the fall of man, animals were harmless and docile; and it is not improbable that when the curse shall be removed, when the earth shall be filled with righteousness and peace, the lion and the lamb may literally lie down together. At present, indeed, the dove, the lamb, and some other animals have no means of defense, unless flight is considered such. And while warriors are figuratively represented by ferocious beasts, real Christians are represented by lambs and doves. So far as nature is made to speak fairly on the subject, it speaks in favor of the doctrine that has been advocated.
But corrupt nature strongly dictates many things quite contrary to the precepts of the gospel, and no doctrine will be given up more reluctantly by corrupt nature than that of the lawfulness of war, because no doctrine is more congenial with the depraved feelings and propensities of unsanctified men. “Their feet are swift to shed blood. Destruction and misery are in their ways, and the way of peace have they not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Continued:

Mr. Deering, a puritan minister, being once at a public dinner, a gallant man sat on the opposite side of the table, who, besides other vain discourse, broke out into profane swearing, for which Mr. Deering gravely and sharply reproved him. The young man, taking this as an affront, immediately threw a glass of beer in his face. Mr. Deering took no notice of the insult; but wiped his face, and continued eating as before. The young gentleman presently renewed his profane conversation, and Mr. Deering reproved him as before,—upon which, but with more rage and violence, he flung another glass of beer in his face. Mr. Deering continued unmoved, still showing his zeal for the glory of God, by bearing the insult with Christian meekness and humble silence. This so astonished the young gentleman, that he rose from the table, fell on his knees, and asked Mr. Deering’s pardon; and declared, that if any of the company offered him similar insults, he would stab them with his sword.—Here was practically verified the New Testament maxim—’be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good’—Romans 12:21

[i]-Taken from Anecdotes Religious and Moral by Rev. Charles Buck, 1843, pg. 163[/i]

.—Here was practically verified the New Testament maxim—’be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good’—Romans 12:21

Amen, thank you Brother Kire, a true lesson in turning the other cheek.

Dear Pastorfrin,
I don't often respond to the threads that i read.
However this one has been bothering me for sometime. The way people in the Armed Forces are portrayed,somehow dupes of the goverment, that they are lacking in real devotion to their Lord that all War is Evil. That thier only in a War because of there vain lust for power and there love of killing other humans.

Maybe I am reading to much in what is being said. I Thank God that there are Christian Men and Women serving in the military and will continue to lift them up prayer for protection and wisdom wherever they may serving.

I believe that the USA has over come Evil with Good and somtimes the Good came from the business end of a Sherman Tank. This country has and its military has always been willing to turn the other cheek as many soldiers and civilans from Japan and Germany would be Willing to attest to that truth.

Even the current War that we find our country facing now i will pray that they can overcome Evil With Good. Whether you agree with the policy or not makes no difference to me all i know is that they are Yours and mine, brothers and sisters in Christ serving on the frontlines of a battle with Evil. They are showing the Greatest Love because they are willing to lay down their life for a friend.

They are doing the fighting and dying, as of yet i have not had to sacrifice anything.

As far as defense of my family i would be willing to wait for the police as long as they didn't move. Movement would cause them to face the jugdement seat quicker than they might be ready for.

I don't understand,maybe i am just slow.i went to the link of people thanking Veterans for their service. So its ok to bash them as long as you thank them first.
Jeff

Hi jeffutah,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.