Menu

Fire At Ben Israel

S
Spitfire

There was a fire at Art Katz' ministry center in Minnesota on Saturday morning. I received an email from a friend of mine in Canada. Here is a copy of it:

Not the kind we would hope for -
the beautiful community center and office were totally burned down.

It happened this morning and someone was able to get help to save one critical filing cabinet and one computer - thank God.
Books, CDs, DVDs and recording equipment were lost - all coming to tens of thousands of dollars in value - -
there was no insurance coverage.

Finances and organization are needed to rebuild, so, it's time to get together and pray. . .

For office and other business, please call Mervin at home at 1-218-335-8459
If you can not reach Mervin, Pearl takes his calls at 1-218-335-7881

With love. . . .the Body of Christ at Ben Israel

I think there are many here who would like to know this. Love, Dian.

G
Goldminer

We, as those who love Art Katz need to do our part to help them in this time of need. I challenge each of us to prayerfully ask God what we could do to help.

D
DIEDTOSELF

A little insider info, the computer was the main computer.

G
Goldminer


In the light of the fire that destroyed Ben Israel's facility we need to rally around Art Katz and all the family of God there.

I submit that all of us can give to the rebuilding and restoration of this right-on ministry.

Art Katz preaches the word of God with an uncompromised message. We need to stand by those who are willing to suffer persecution for the truth.

I am in no way affiliated with Ben Israel or the Burning Bush other than reading Art's book and listening to his messages. I have been so blessed by what comes out of this ministry, I need to bless back, how about you?

Most of us in the body have not been real good at follow-through when it comes to helping those in need. We are responsible for one another. I believe each of us could send money to help them with reconstruction. Twenty dollars or more wouldn't be a burden on many of us.


2Cr 8:14 But by an equality, [that] now at this time your abundance [may be a supply] for their want, that their abundance also may be [a supply] for your want: that there may be equality:


If we would just give up our trip to McDonalds or fast for day or two we could send a love gift to this precious ministry. Please let us be found faithful in this. I challenge us all to send money, or go help them, and also to send this need to every person and ministry we can think of who might have been blessed by this Father in the faith.


Here is the address to send your gift to:

Ben Israel Fellowship
43237 Cass Line Rd.
Laporte, MN. 56461

Please don't put this off until later. Many times when we do this we forget, even though we had the best intention. I just feel that in light of Art being sick for so long and his great blessing to the body of Christ, we should let him and his fellowhship know we love them.

I have not contacted Ben Israel and told them this, but what a blessing it will be when generous outpourings show up at their door. What would you want to happen if it was you?

Thanks

G
Goldminer

We need to share this with all the ministries we are a part of as well.

K
KingJimmy

What actually is the community center? And do they know the reason for the fire?

J
jordanamo

WOW.

That is my response. This is incredible.

EVERYONE: [url=http://web.archive.org/web/20060821085619/http://www.benisrael.org/]Ben Israel[/url]

It's still there! Thankfully.

I am just completely shocked. EVERYONE understand this: If the books were burned, you BEST order all the Art Katz books you can off Amazon or a third seller-- they WILL go out fast. The fact that they burned down means there is a COMPLETE deflux or whatever of these books.. please purchase them if you havent yet done so and wanted to-- they will be going out soon I expect. (via Amazon or a third-party) -- however, I would not order as many as you can! let other people have some please.. don't just grab them all. please.

We ALL need to be in prayer for Ben Israel. I am expecting Art to give a message much like he did for 9/11 and I await it. I am going to send out some money for help.

We need to look at the big positives guys: it appears that none perished in the fire (although I have no way of verifying that?) -- Their all alive! Praise God.

Jordan

K
KingJimmy

If I have understood the message of Art Katz and Ben Israel correctly, I believe this was perhaps the hand of God bringing about a final death to the community so that true life might abound. If so, perhaps the solution is not to rebuild. Instead, the true solution is to embody the message they have preached all these years. Instead of just handing friends and family members copies of brother Katz's books and tapes, perhaps we should be unto them the message of those books and tapes?

S
sermonindex

http://web.archive.org/web/20060821085619/http://www.benisrael.org/

Brother,

This is good to archive this website. I hope some brother's and sisters take that seriously and do it.

If I have understood the message of Art Katz and Ben Israel correctly, I believe this was perhaps the hand of God bringing about a final death to the community so that true life might abound. If so, perhaps the solution is not to rebuild. Instead, the true solution is to embody the message they have preached all these years. Instead of just handing friends and family members copies of brother Katz's books and tapes, perhaps we should be unto them the message of those books and tapes?

Good thought brother.

J
jordanamo

This is good to archive this website. I hope some brother's and sisters take that seriously and do it.

I hope you know though-- benisrael.org is down and will be for awhile-- i didn't archive it though, someone else did it when it was still operational.

Jordan

C
crsschk

We are responsible for one another
Please let us be found faithful in this.

Thank you Goldminer

...we should let him and his fellowhship know we love them.

G
Goldminer

Let's keep the message going forth for help for Ben Israel.

I believe that from the ashes will arise a more burning word that ever, if that is possible.

For you folks who have never listened to Art Katz check out the entries on this site. You wont be disappointed.

I am pasting my first post so it doesn't get over looked, this is important, he is a beloved brother by many on this site.

re-post:


In the light of the fire that destroyed Ben Israel's facility we need to rally around Art Katz and all the family of God there.

I submit that all of us can give to the rebuilding and restoration of this right-on ministry.

Art Katz preaches the word of God with an uncompromised message. We need to stand by those who are willing to suffer persecution for the truth.

I am in no way affiliated with Ben Israel or the Burning Bush other than reading Art's book and listening to his messages. I have been so blessed by what comes out of this ministry, I need to bless back, how about you?

Most of us in the body have not been real good at follow-through when it comes to helping those in need. We are responsible for one another. I believe each of us could send money to help them with reconstruction. Twenty dollars or more wouldn't be a burden on many of us.


2Cr 8:14 But by an equality, [that] now at this time your abundance [may be a supply] for their want, that their abundance also may be [a supply] for your want: that there may be equality:


If we would just give up our trip to McDonalds or fast for day or two we could send a love gift to this precious ministry. Please let us be found faithful in this. I challenge us all to send money, or go help them, and also to send this need to every person and ministry we can think of who might have been blessed by this Father in the faith.


Here is the address to send your gift to:

Ben Israel Fellowship
43237 Cass Line Rd.
Laporte, MN. 56461

Please don't put this off until later. Many times when we do this we forget, even though we had the best intention. I just feel that in light of Art being sick for so long and his great blessing to the body of Christ, we should let him and his fellowhship know we love them.

I have not contacted Ben Israel and told them this, but what a blessing it will be when generous outpourings show up at their door. What would you want to happen if it was you?

Thanks


K
KingJimmy

I am all for charity and helping out others in need. However, I think it is a bit presumptious of us to believe that rebuilding needs to occur, at least, at this present time. Have you brothers considered it might be the will of God for the buildings to remain a heap of ashes?

J
jordanamo

I am all for charity and helping out others in need. However, I think it is a bit presumptious of us to believe that rebuilding needs to occur, at least, at this present time. Have you brothers considered it might be the will of God for the buildings to remain a heap of ashes?

Well the money we send would go to whatever needs they have. They may not rebuild the building but they still are going to have to build some of their past equipment up again to republish their books or whatever... I'd suppose. And that costs money... But yes I am going to wait first before I send out money.. I want to hear from them and what their plans are.

I'd suppose though that they have over a hundred thousand dollars in savings.

Jordan

K
KingJimmy

When I say rebuild, I mean the entire thing, including the publishing arm of their ministry.

J
jordanamo

When I say rebuild, I mean the entire thing, including the publishing arm of their ministry.

You don't think they'll rebuild their book publishing?

And I took you meant rebuild by the physical building, hence this statement you made in that post,
"Have you brothers considered it might be the will of God for the buildings to remain a heap of ashes?"

Jordan

D
dohzman

When I read this post my wife and I prayed about this situation and brother Katz, it really hasn't effected me until this morning in our time of prayer when I was moved deeply, above and beyond what is the norm, my emotions being greatly affected by the whole matter. I trust that all this will work to God's glory and I believe the Lord Himself will raise up a testamony in Brother Katz and that ministry beyond anything that could have been, had not any of these things had first happened. May the Lord cause all thier wars to cease and bless them with the peace of His presence especially during this time. Grace and peace---bro. daryl

H
HopeinChrist

I am very grieved to hear of such a tragedy striking Ben Israel. Particularly considering the battle that has already been existing over brother Art's health. I first read about this earlier today and was initially in agreement with Goldminer's suggestion of sending immediate financial help. But, as I was praying about what I should do and contemplating the magnitude of all the ministry has experienced in recent months, I did question whether the Lord is doing something beyond our ability to understand at this time. I am for now going to pray and wait for a response from Ben Israel.

I also couldn't help but to think of brother Art's own words from the message Be Ye Perfect. Here are some excerpts to think upon.

The perfection of God children has only to do with this............that it has it's perfect origin in heaven and is perfectly the fulfillment of Him who spoke it.
Luke 14 for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
There are a lot of good things that the world applauds loudly and that even Christians applaud which are a stench in the nostrils of God. God keep us from good things, which in truth can defer us from the thing which is perfect. No one ever thinks to question good things, except a God who is increasingly insistent upon the thing which is perfect. You just keep doing good things and I tell you there shall come a moment in your life individually and in our life corporately, a crucial moment, in a life or death situation when great issues are hanging in the balance. And if you have been habituated to doing good things, born out of your human will and volition and mind you are going to miss the perfect life giving thing of God. One of the most serious misconceptions among the children of God is that actions are determined by right and wrong they do what their eyes tell them is right, the do what their background tells them is right and they do what their years of experience tell them is right. And many of you are looking at me and saying, "Art, isn't that right?" No that's wrong. That children is Judaism. That's ethical humanism. That has to do with the operation of mind and God has called you to be a people of the Spirit.

[b][color=000000]I myself do not compulsively do anything. For fear lest acting out of my own impulse and my own mind and my own good intention I have obstructed the perfect intention of God.[/color][/b]


There are two sources of life, two trees from which we can eat, the knowledge of good and evil, (judgments based on the operation of our mind) and the tree of life. And to live from that tree is life indeed.

It was always very evident to me that drug trafficking, pornography, orgies, witchcraft, the occult had their origin in hell. But it wasn't quite so evident that good things had their origin there also. And I tell you I'm seeing a Satan so crafty and full of guile that if he can't seduce and corrupt the children of God by invitations of blatant sin that he'll snare them by things that are good; to keep them from the things that are perfect.


G
Goldminer

Hello all,

Well Ben Israel's website is up and running with a photo of the blaze and and a testimony. Here is the link:

http://www.benisrael.org/site_content/TMP/BIF_tragedy.htm

Here is what the site says:

March 3, 2007
Heart Wrenching Scene.
Our hearts sank as we stood together helplessly watching our meeting hall and office facility burn to the ground. Many of its contents were precious and irreplaceble. It is a serious set back for this ministry. But though sober and searching, we emulate the grace that was David's when in the face of astonishing disaster, the scripture says of him, "But David encouraged himself in the Lord his God" (1Sam 30:6). And like him, we hope to prove faithful in the same care to seek the Lord's mind and direction for our every decision. We want to humble ourselves before Him, as we embrace His rebuke and instruction. We want to examine ourselves, review, take account, and with one heart seek His face for the way ahead. We covet the prayers of the saints.

Master copies of vidoes and cassettes were destroyed, together with our entire inventory of books. So, our bookstore has been closed for the time being. Our books do remain online - free of charge - under the Writings section of our website. Most of the audio messages are available for free on www.sermonindex.net.


[color=0000CC]I understand that the fellowship has just asked for prayer but I feel strongly that the Lord will lay in on many peoples hearts, as He did me, to do more than pray. I believe that Art has been under attack from the enemy physically and now this, not because of any wrong doing, but because of right doing. He has preached an uncompromising message that has angered the adversary, so the devil is trying to take him out. Just as God did with Job, the end will be better than the beginning.[/color]

[color=0000CC]I still feel that an outpouring of love and help would encourage their hearts that the body of Christ is one and when one part hurts we all hurt. [/color]

[color=0000CC]I know we each have to hear from God individually what we should do in this situation. I know I have heard. Jesus' heart was moved with compassion, so should ours be. If this ministry was a flakey prosperity ministry it would be a different matter, but this is a stable, careful, God fearing ministry. Love gives. If you don't feel to give money, pray and maybe send a note letting them know your love for them. I can tell you in a situation like this we would all need encouragement.[/color]

J
jordanamo

I believe that Art has been under attack from the enemy physically and now this, not because of any wrong doing, but because of right doing. He has preached an uncompromising message that has angered the adversary, so the devil is trying to take him out. Just as God did with Job, the end will be better than the beginning.

I disagree insofar as I do not know if it is the Enemy or God doing it. I am sure Katz has a prophetic understanding concerning this. Ultimately it doesn't matter if it's the Enemy or God directly-- because God is in it no matter and he allowed it to burn to the ground. Not much different than allowing a Tsunami to wreak havoc on New Orleans.

I'm glad the site is back up.

I am going to go into a prayer cocoon soon tonight.

I would like to amend what I said earlier. I specifically recommend you purchase Apostolic Foundations-- it is sort of the climatic book of Katz' theology and for a person interested in Katz it's a good buy. It's big too, so reading it online would be burdensome-- and makes for a good purchase. So pick that one, the rest will end up being brought back up to publishing anyhow, along with Apostolic Foundations I am sure, but for the time being you may want this book. Only cost ya around $10-13 if you get it from Amazon

Also, a few of his early books (Odyssey, Reality-- are in major surplus [comparatively] to the recent new ones and can be found cheaply online. Thus purchasing them for 'backup' storage is not practical.)

If you're interested in the old books and whatnot,
[url=http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&an=Arthur+Katz&y=0&x=0&sortby=2]Abebooks.com[/url]

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Apostolic-Foundations-Arthur-Katz/dp/9810424817/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1420326-6978427?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173244835&sr=8-1]Apostolic Foundations[/url]

Man that image of the place in flames.. made me sad. It looks a bit small though, or is that just me? I'd expect it was bigger...

I'm also going to suppose that this community center was away from the sleeping corridors-- and thus no one got hurt due partially to that-- and this did happen in the morning.

Jordan

S
sermonindex

Have you brothers considered it might be the will of God for the buildings to remain a heap of ashes?

no.

I think its a time to show a community of believers that LIFTS up in word this man's ministry our love, via any excess resource, which is my next move, ie. to the checkbook, for a love offering, to these perplexed, but not crushed saints.

neil

S
sermonindex

Here is the address to send your gift to:

Ben Israel Fellowship
43237 Cass Line Rd.
Laporte, MN. 56461

done and done in the Name of Jesus.

neil

G
Goldminer


You know Bartle you have warmed my heart if not Ben Israel. I am so..... blessed to see someone that wants to reach out in love to a fellow brother and fellowship in the Lord. God would have mercy rather than judgment.

I'll admit I was a bit sadden by some of the comments here. If anyone on this forum's house burnt down I would consider it something to pull the body together to show love.

My heart in all this is that Art has gone through a tremendous time of testing with his health and to see an overwhelming outpouring from the rest of church in this matter could not help but be a blessing to him. I know money is just money but it shows where our heart is at.

I don't condemn anyone that feels God told them not to give. Do what God says. But I know God wanted the body to show love in this way and it will come from some sources. Rob Holmes already ran my letter on his Storm Harvest ministry site from Australia. People who have been blessed by Art will rally around him and Ben Israel in this hour. His book, as mentioned, Apostolic Foundations, is one of my favorite books. He blessed me by not being a man pleaser and I want to bless him.

I do not believe God wants this fellowship hall to remain a burnt heap. This will turn out to be a testimony of the love and provision of God and His people. I am sure they could use a new main computer and other things, this is probably God's way of supplying what the needed for what is coming up in the future.

Again Bartle, thanks for making my morning.

H
hmmhmm

i pray for Mr Katz and everyone there,


but something about this whole matter draws my thinking to Job...... what do you others think?

G
Goldminer


I did already mention Job in this thread too. His friends blamed his possible unrighteousness, his wife told him to curse God and die, however they all got rebuked and then prayed for by Job. Yes Job did have to have his perception of God tweeked and then the latter end of Job was better than the beginning. Sounds right to me.

Art Katz speaks the truth without apology. I'm sure he has feet of clay just like the rest of us. I haven't seen many preachers who will acknowlege their shortcomings as fully as Art. But God loves him. We need to stand beside ministers who will not compromise the gospel, they are few and far in between.

J
joyinjesus8

Goldminer wrote:

We need to stand beside ministers who will not compromise the gospel, they are few and far in between.

What can I say but AMEN to that!!

M
mom23beagles

I would like to pose a practical (carnal?) question at this point, did they have any insurance on the building and contents?

I don't know anything about Art Katz or his ministry, but he is spoken of here alot and it seems many have been blessed by his ministry.

I was always taught to believe that God does not reprove us by sending disasters/illnesses/tragedy into our lives, those come from the enemy because those are the tools he has to discourage us in our walk. God allows it for now because He has loosed the enemy to terrorize the world for a time. The enemy knows his time is short so he is working overtime to get those whose hearts are for the Lord to falter and waver.

I could be wrong, though. It wouldn't be the first nor the last time!

Mia and Bailey, Dugan, Buddy & Agnes the beagles.

S
sermonindex

I would like to pose a practical (carnal?) question at this point, did they have any insurance on the building and contents?

No, I believe they did not have any insurance. They are pretty seperate from the world out there on their property. This has been allowed in the providence of God and let us help them financially and prayerfully at this time.

D
death2self

Brother Art is a precious man and may we all simply pray and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. His sermon entitled [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=12162]"One Thing You Lack"[/url] is a classic and describes the Christian life with great clarity.

R
Ruach34

Would like to relay a quick story about Art. I had invited him last year, as he and Reggie traveled to come to little rock to stay a night and hold a meeting. His illness set in and could not come but ended up planning a stop over about two hours away for the weekend, in fort smith, AR. My wife and I were able to attend all meetings for the weekend. Tremendous time.
Anyway, friday night, the first meeting everyone was scurrying about after the close of the meeting getting things packed up etc...My wife and I sat at a table with Art and Reggie, talking. After some conversation Art found out we had no place to stay that night, so very inconspicuously he slipped out and found a brother who would be willing to host a couple that night and introduced us. This was a humbling experience. I mention this story to simply place emphasis on Art's selflessness. He was already in a weakened state, but put others before himself. He could have come down to fort smith demanding such and such a payment, a five star hotel stay etc...but in the Spirt of our Lord Jesus Christ, he treated my wife and I as more important. I was humbled and reminded of the quote he uses, "what the world needs is for men to wash one anothers' feet..."
Let's seek God on what to do now for them.
Rich

G
Goldminer

It was stated on the first post on this that they did not have insurance. Here is their address again.

Here is the address to send your gift to:

Ben Israel Fellowship
43237 Cass Line Rd.
Laporte, MN. 56461

K
kathyclark

Has anyone heard anything lately about how they are doing?

E
Eli_Barnabas

Brothers and sisters, I do not believe this is anything but a hateful attack against this crucial end time ministry. Art is one of the few voices crying out in the wilderness the prophetic truth the Church needs to hear. What with his health, and the fire, our adversary is attempting to silence him. Beloved, let us lift him up in prayer.

G
Goldminer

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Ben Israel now has an address on their site where donations can be sent and even a link to donate through Pay Pal.

www.benisrael.org

G
Goldminer

March 2nd, 2007

We are pleased to let you know that the current flare-up was but momentary. The swelling on Art's knees has gone, the pain has subsided.

Thank you for your prayers.

[color=0000CC]I wanted to give you this updat from the second of March on Art's health. This was before the fire. I just wanted everybody to rejoice that he was better and to continue to pray.[/color]

I
iansmith

I was just considering the parallels to William Carey's ministry.

H
HopeinChrist

I was just considering the parallels to William Carey's ministry.

Can you elaborate? I am not familiar with Carey.
Hope

G
Goldminer

Can you elaborate? I am not familiar with Carey.
Hope


[color=0000FF]I'd like to know more too.[/color]

J
jordanamo

William Carey's "Fire":

"From the printing press at the mission came translations of the Bible in Bengali, Sanskrit, and other major languages and dialects. Many of these languages had never been printed before; William Ward had to create punches for the type by hand. Carey had begun translating literature and sacred writings from the original Sanskrit into English to make them accessible to his own countryman. On March 11, 1812, a fire in the print shop caused £10,000 in damages and lost work. Amongst the losses were many irreplaceable manuscripts, including much of Carey's translation of Sanskrit literature and a polyglot dictionary of Sanskrit and related languages, which would have been a seminal philological work had it been completed. However, the press itself and the punches were saved, and the mission was able to continue printing in six months. In Carey's lifetime, the mission printed and distributed the Bible in whole or part in 44 languages and dialects."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Carey

Much more extensive:

"All the workmen had left one evening, and only Ward remained at his desk, when suddenly clouds of smoke burst from the type room into the office. Joined by others, Ward closed all the windows and had water poured in through the roof for four hours, with every hope of being able to put the fire out. At the end of this time a friend, who had come to help, foolishly opened a window, and the air rushing in set the whole building in flames. By midnight the roof fell in, and the column of fire leapt up towards heaven, while the members of the mission family sat silent in front.

"The work of ten years was gone in a few hours, the types for fourteen Eastern languages melted into lumps of lead, ten printed versions of the Bible, and Carey's priceless translations burnt together with twelve hundred reams of paper.

"Marshman went himself to Calcutta the next morning to break the news to Carey, and he was so stunned by it that for some time he could not utter a word.

"When in the evening they got back to the smoking ruins, they found to their great delight that Ward who was busy clearing up, had found uninjured many of the punches and moulds used in making type.

"We understand what stuff Carey was made of, when we learn that without wasting a day he set to work to make new translations and to cast fresh type; and within a month the press was busy once more turning out Bibles.

"It was hard to begin all over again the books that had taken him years to translate; but Carey found that he could do the work much better the second time. Other good also came out of this trouble. The fire made Carey famous through Europe, and men all over the world wished to help as far as possible to replace the loss. The actual loss in money, which was £10,000, was made up in England in fifty days, and £800 was given by one congregation in India."

From chapter 6: http://www.wholesomewords.org/children/bcarey11.html

Jordan

G
Goldminer

Dear Jordan,

I am going to send a copy of what you have shared to Ben Israel. I think it will encourage them.

Bless you

S
shibu

Dear Saints,
It is very painful to read about the calamity which had struck Ben Israel Fellowship from human view point. But according to God's economy, there are on glorious pruning process unto eternal weight of glory.

John 15:1-3 "I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more."

Psalm 66:10-12 Bless our God, O peoples! give him a thunderous welcome! Didn't he set us on the road to life? Didn't he keep us out of the ditch? He trained us first,passed us like silver through refining fires, Brought us into hardscrabble country,pushed us to our very limit, Road-tested us inside and out,took us to hell and back; Finally he brought us to this well-watered place.

Let us continue to uphold them in our prayers especially for Art Katz.

In Him,
Shibu

G
Goldminer

Dear Jordan,

I wanted to send you the response on the William Carey post you made about Ben Israel. I thought you might be blessed by it. Here it is:

---------------------------------------------

Others have reminded us of similar incidents: 1. A fire destroyed a huge
store house full of books (about 40 000) of the late Oswald Chamber's burned
down. His widow, Bibby Chambers, must have been devastated with such a
terrible loss.

Also, a fire destroyed most of the writings of David Baron, and what we have
today is only a sample of all his works.

So, we are encouraged...
Mervin Stahl
Ben Israel

----------------------------------------------

E
Eli_Barnabas

I was just considering the parallels to William Carey's ministry.

Yes, I see this as well.

J
jordanamo

Thank you Goldminer.

It's a tragedy that most of David Baron's writings were burned in East London when Germany bombed them...

Now what we have left is left largely left unpublished, except Ben Israel published most of them and they were apparently burned down in the fire, which is sad.

You can't find them online via any online used bookstores, either. Only like two of his works are being published in current circulation.

Jordan

P
PaulWest

And we mustn't forget the great Chicago fire of 1871 that decimated the life-long investments of godly H.G. Spafford, which actually precipitated his family's trip to Europe that led to further disaster - the sinking of the ship his wife and four daughters were on. All four of his daughters drowned. And not four years after that, his only son died.

Spafford is the same man that wrote "It is Well with My Soul" and the musician who wrote the music to this beloved hymn died himself not two weeks later in a train wreck!

Do you remember the story of Leonard Ravenhill (also in Chicago, BTW), leaping from the window of a burning building in the 1950's? I think he ended up breaking both his legs and fracturing many ribs.

God is not a man, and His ways to accomplish divine purpose are as far beyond our mortal intellect as the heavens are above the earth.

I
iansmith

Sorry for the tangent, just answering paul's ambiguously written comment about Horatio Stafford.

Spafford wrote the hymn in 1873 after his daughters died while he himself was passing the spot on a boat where the other ship sank. He didn't die until 1888, as a missionary in Jerusalem where he died of malaria.

Horatio Spafford:
Born 1828
1870 death of first son
1871 chicago fire and destruction of property
1873 death of his four daughters
1873 writing of the hymn 'it is well with my soul'
1876 bith of son Horatio
1878 birth of daughter Bertha
1880 death of his second son by scarlet fever
1881 mission to Jersualem
1888 died of malaria in Jerusalem four days before his 60th birthday.

Philip Bliss who did write the score for the hymn died in 1876 in a train wreck... but there is also some time issues here, he performed the hymn for an audience including DL Moody on nov 28 1876 and died in the train wreck on december 29th of the same year, over a month (not quite two weeks).

P
PaulWest

just answering paul's ambiguously written comment about Horatio Stafford

Thanks for the correction, Ian. I'm sorry you considered my comment to be "ambiguous". The only reason I posted was to harmlessly remind the readers here of different tragedies that have befallen godly men in the past.

Brother Paul

I
iansmith

^_~ The only reason I mentioned it is because I got called by someone else when talking on the same person, using almost the same example... I guess it begot in me the need to correct you about it too =o sorry.

H
hmmhmm


God is not a man, and His ways to accomplish divine purpose are as far beyond our mortal intellect as the heavens are above the earth.


this we need to remember always...

B
BudTexas

Hello All:

I have listened to Art Katz for years.

A more eloquent and devoted man I do not know.

Art's intellect, vocabulary and physical presence is powerful.

I know I have somewhat idolized Art's intellect. I think Art has idolized the intellects of those he has read and frequently quotes. Art and most if not all of the people Art respects hold an unscriptural sovereignty of God doctrine.

It pervades everything.

Below is a quote off of the Ben Israel web site about the fire there. "And like him, we hope to prove faithful in the same care to seek the Lord's mind and direction for our every decision. We want to humble ourselves before Him, as we embrace His rebuke and instruction. We want to examine ourselves, review, take account, and with one heart seek His face for the way ahead. We covet the prayers of the saints."

They want to "embrace His rebuke and instruction". Meaning the fire was God's rebuke and a way of instructing them.

Jesus, the express image of God The Father, did not feed the five thousand and then by night go around setting fires to rebuke them and teach them something.

Jesus did not heal the sick and then secretly creep around making people sick.

Jesus never told any sick person or person with a birth defect to stay that way so that they could learn something or give God glory in that way.

I want Art out of the sick bed and back to ministering without however that sickly sovereignty of God doctrine.

I
iansmith

Bud,

How do you know it was a rebuke? Was Keith Green's plane crash a rebuke? Was the death of more than half of the Moravian brethren in the mission field a rebuke? Was the book of Job a rebuke? Was the cross a rebuke?

-Ian

G
Goldminer


The quote on Ben Israel's web site about rebuke is letting people know they are seeking God about this fire happening. Trying to hear the heart of God. I don't think that they are saying we are being rebuked, but God search our hearts. I only say this in the light of emails from their fellowship. They are seeking how to take the next step and what step to take. If that includes repentance they want to be open to that as well.

I too believe in the sovreignty of God. The steps of a righteous man are ordered of the Lord. Unless God by way of revelation discloses to us what's coming next we must trust He will direct our steps to the best possible path. We need to pray for direction at all times.

All things work together for good to those who love God and are the called according to His purpose.

We do not know if this might have happened so God could bless the latter end of Art Katz and Ben Israel more than the beginning. Maybe God wants to expand the reaches of Art's message and the generous outpouring of the saints around the world, as the result of the fire, will enable them to do what they could have never done before.

Only God knows whether it was a rebuke or a new provision. Time will tell.

We need to not asume we know why this happened, that would be like Job's "friends". Only God knows the heart of a man and His dealings with that heart.

[color=6600CC]1Cr 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. [/color]

That part, if a member suffers, means in the strongs=

1) to be affected or have been affected, to feel, have a sensible experience, to undergo

a) in a good sense, to be well off, in good case

b) in a bad sense, to suffer sadly, be in a bad plight

1) of a sick person

members suffer with it, means=

1) to suffer or feel pain together

2) to suffer evils (troubles, persecutions) in the like manner with another

1) with

How many of us are really experiencing the pain that this part of our body is experiencing? If we are not then can we also look forward to a "rebuke"? Maybe we better take out better fire insurance.


K
KingJimmy

Not to say Art is by any means a Jezebell, but Jesus does make people sick:

Rev 2:22 I will throw her on a bed of sickness....

K
KingJimmy

Also, according to 1 Cor 11:30 teaches that failure to properly discern the body during the Lord's Supper results in bodily weakness, sickness and even death. Not of course, to say any of this applies to Ben Israel. Just demonstrating that the Lord does indeed make others sick, and speak through sickness. Not to say though, that every calamity or illness of God either.

B
BudTexas

The extreme sovereignty of God Doctrine is all over thie web site.

Job's experience and not Jesus is played up.

The only scriptures that people think they have a handle on about healing is "Paul's thorn in the flesh".

Scriptures like 1 Cor 11:30 are hung out to dry "proving" God strikes people with sickness and death. (It does not prove that.)

Antidotal stories about relatives is held up against scripture. The relatives win scripture loses.

Good is called evil and evil called good.

In the end who would want the god of this extreme sovereignty doctrine? With a god like that, who needs the devil?

This "god" is not full of loving kindness. He isn't good (unless you totally twist kindness and goodness to include a dose of cancer as a teaching tool from "god").

I wouldn't want to be in the same room with a god like that much less spend eternity with him.

Jesus, the real Jesus, the express image of God The Father, is someone whose presence we will never wish to leave. He really loves us, He likes us.

Jesus is really good and "Went around doing good, healing all those oppressed of the devil".

Well, I don't think I'm going to change many minds so better I leave you all alone.


K
KingJimmy

I guess you decided to ignore the other verses like Rev 2 that are "hung out" to prove Jesus causes illness. Then I guess we could ignore how Annanias and Saphira were killed. Let's not also mention how Paul of Tarsus was struck blind. Or how Herod was eaten alive by worms.

If you have a problem being around a God like this, you don't have to go to heaven and spend eternity with Him if you don't want to.

B
BudTexas

In covenant or out of covenant, that is the question.

Jesus called the people upon whom the tower at Siloam fell, "sinners". Those Galilaean making sacrifices, killed by Pilate also, "sinners". Not unusually sinners, just sinners; Outside the covenant of God.

They came to an expected end. Expected because God's word had already made clear what people can expect who disregard God's word.

"For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:"

"But whoever disobeys (is unbelieving toward, refuses to trust in, disregards, is not subject to) the Son will never see (experience) life, but [instead] the wrath of God abides on him. [God's displeasure remains on him; His indignation hangs over him continually.]

God's dealings with The Body of Christ is totally different then from those not reconciled to God.

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

So where were Ananias and Sapphira? Very possibly they had been believers who went reprobate, putting them outside the covenant.

As for (sister?) Jezebel in Rev 2, where was she? As leader of the fornication/idol worship division of her local church, she was given a space to repent. If she was ever a believer it appears she had fallen away.

Brothers and sisters in Christ can do terrible things. In 1 Cor 5:1 a brother was sleeping with his father's wife. We see how Paul believed God wanted to deal with that.

I have lived under the deception of the unscriptural sovereignty of God teaching. It is a dark place. Never sure of anything really. It is something like "karma" in Hinduism.

We have God's Word full of precious promises and blessings. God's Word which shows us the true nature of God but which can be overshaddowed, trumped, by a mysterious and unscriptural doctrine which is an "extreme sovereignty of God" teaching.

God has put His entire creation and Himself under His own Word. We can trust Him because we can trust His Word.

G
Goldminer

Saved in the greek = Sozo = saved to the uttermost

body, soul, spirit, mind, will and emtions. We just need to reckon it to be so. The provision is sure the reception of it isn't.

P
philologos

body, soul, spirit, mind, will and emtions. We just need to reckon it to be so. The provision is sure the reception of it isn't.

You must only reckon on what is true. If we have been baptised into Christ then we are to 'reckon' ourselved 'dead indeed...' But if we have not been baptised into Christ to reckon ourselves so would be gross presumption.

C
crsschk

[i]Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:


But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.


And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory[/i]


C
crsschk

Our call as the church to resist the Devil is not dependent upon what we [i]do[/i], but what we [i]are[/i]. It is something in the [i]character[/i] of the church. Our victory will be related to the quality and continuous character of the fellowship itself. So long as there is any surrender or condescension to the wisdom of those powers, for example, fear, intimidation, threat, concern for ones life and security, then the powers have a place of penetration. When they see a people who are resolute in their faith, and know that their security does not come from the world, or from their employer, or from the State, but from God, then the powers are without any weapon. There is nothing that can be attacked.

Paul and Silas imprisonment in Acts 16 is a wonderful demonstration of the wisdom of God. At midnight they were praying and singing praises unto God. They believed that their suffering was the very consequence of their obedience, and that even though only one woman was affected by their ministry, they were in the place of obedience to the heavenly vision. It did not matter whether they would lose their lives or not, because that was not the issue. They had such a deep faith in the sovereignty of God, and the privilege of sharing in His sufferings, that they rejoiced, and it was expressed in praise.

When you can praise God in the midst of adversity and suffering, you have the most powerful release from the powers of darkness. They cannot stand it, or bear to hear it, and they flee, because it is the overwhelming evidence of the reality of the invisible God. It contradicts their wisdom which says that when you are suffering, you are to be mourning, pouting, feeling sorry for yourself, blaming God, and accusing this man or that. But when you can praise God in the midst of your sufferings, you have ruined them. You have taken their last weapon, and they have nothing they can use anymore to threaten or to intimidate. You have broken through onto a heavenly ground. They are absolutely helpless to adversely affect you, and so they are required to flee.

The one thing that the powers of darkness are required to acknowledge is authenticity the thing that is real. I am an enemy, therefore, to what seems to be real in worship and praise that puts such emphasis on musical ability, on instruments, on loudspeakers, on electronic technology, on song and on worship leaders. One of my greatest battles as a prophetic person is with worship leaders. Oftentimes, it happens that I have a speaking engagement, and by the time the worship is over, I am completely depleted and drained. I get up and it is a pathetic beep next to what I knew the Lord was wanting. The worship, so-called, that should have enhanced the word actually [i]robbed[/i] and blunted it. There is so much emphasis on worship that almost makes the success of the church depend upon it. "Did you enjoy the worship?" instead of it being the spontaneous expression of the redemptive work of God in the life of the believers, personally and corporately.

Jesus endured all of His suffering for the [i]joy[/i] that was set before Him, in the anticipation of what would be the consequence of His suffering for eternity. This is the wisdom of God, because rejoicing in suffering is a contradiction. It is contrary to reason and [i]everything[/i] we think natural to man. What is natural to man is survival, "Take care of number one." But the wisdom that can rejoice in suffering is another wisdom, and it is that wisdom which defeats the powers. It is the greater wisdom, but it is not enough just to speak it. It has got to be made manifest, to be demonstrated, by a church whose inner life is itself her proclamation of Gods manifold wisdom. Whether she speaks it or not, the very inner life itself is that thing. It becomes that through trial, through testing, through the Lord allowing oppression, heaviness of spirit all of the kinds of things against which we have to struggle and work out in our relationships. It is becoming one as He is one, in all of the differences, all of the personalities, all of the things that come up that take the guts out of you, where you want to run and find the first Charismatic and Evangelical fellowship you can, just to be relieved from the tension of all of these demands. It is in those tensions, however, that God forms [i]His[/i] character.

[b][u]The Manifold Wisdom of God[/u][/b]

I have already hinted at it manifold wisdom of God that is to be demonstrated by the church. It is the very antithesis of the wisdom of the rulers of darkness who celebrate force, violence, brutality and power. God celebrates weakness, foolishness and humility. God has chosen the foolish and weak things to confound the things that are mighty and wise. Are we majoring in foolishness? Are we willing to suffer the humiliation of weakness? Or are we reflecting more the wisdom of the powers themselves, and therefore constitute no threat to them at all? If we have any intentions of becoming an apostolic presence upon the earth, we will not only incite against ourselves the persecution of these powers, it will also be of an unspeakably vehement and cruel kind. It has historically been so, where men are not merely put to death, they have been flayed alive, sawn asunder and burnt at the stake. There is a particular kind of viciousness, cruelty and diabolical hatred that fumes in mankind against God, and wants to make those who are [i]His[/i], surrender and give up to [i]their[/i] terms. But instead, it gets another response, namely, those who love their enemies, and who pray for their persecutors, and say in their dying breath, [i]"Lord, do not hold this sin against them."[/i]

When Stephen sighed his last breath with those words, the eternal power of that statement broke something in the powers of the air overhead that released a certain angry Jew (Saul), who experienced a prick against his spirit on the road to Damascus to which he finally had to surrender. Something happens when meekness and humility meet utter viciousness. It is a demonstration of the manifold wisdom of God that these powers are obliged to recognize. For nothing else can impress them than the very nature of God and the holiness of His character under supreme duress and pressure. What is more, only suffering and extremity reveal it.

Is that not what happened on the Cross? Jesus did not writhe and groan to preserve His protoplasmic life. He [i]yielded[/i] up the ghost, uttering the words, [i]"Father, forgive them,"[/i] but they were heard by a certain Gentile man, a Roman centurion. He was a professional brute, a man schooled in murder and who had seen many squirm and die on the Cross, and had spat at them in disdain and contempt, for they were only men clutching their lives. But when he saw [i]this[/i] God-man die magnificently under extreme duress and pain, words broke forth out of his mouth, even beyond his consciousness, [i]"Truly, this was the Son of God!"[/i] He had no Biblical background whatsoever, but he was compelled to make a certain recognition of the true identity of that One who was on the Cross, by what was exhibited in His ultimate suffering unto death. And it would not have been revealed [i]except[/i] at the Cross, and [i]except[/i] in a suffering unto death. However brilliant Jesus was as the Son of Man and the Son of God in what He spoke and the miracles that He performed, it required [i]this[/i] as a final and ultimate demonstration of the testimony of who He was and is. It constituted salvation for a man who would have otherwise eternally perished as a murderer himself, unless the acknowledgment came out of him that this indeed was the Son of God.

As Jesus walked, so also are we to walk in this world. God is waiting for one final demonstration that shall penetrate to the very heart of the cosmos itself, a demonstration through the church in the fulfillment of the eternal purpose of God. Verbally and doctrinally, we have agreed with the wisdom of God, namely, to serve Him and to love Him, but in the condition of our lives, and the way in which we conduct ourselves in the office, in the home, in bed or by whatever area of our life, we more or less consistently subscribe to another wisdom and another way. Manipulation, teasing, seduction, and flattery all seek to bend the will of another, and are therefore evil. We are actually subscribing to the wisdom of the powers of this world, bowing and serving their gods, and doing according to their works.

How we shall react under extreme duress and persecution is the issue that is before us now. Our little impatient moods, our critical spirits, and our irritation with one another, are already evidence of how little prepared we are for this final confrontation. The very things that we have complained about in the church, namely, the trials and the irritations that come to us from other saints, are exactly the provision of God for the shaping of His godly character in us. God is wanting to move us to that ultimate place of response, that when the ultimate persecution comes, we shall stand graciously and exhibit the wisdom of God. We shall demonstrate the triumph of the Cross, and by the eternal Spirit, we shall offer ourselves up, as Jesus did in that final moment. The eternal Spirit was offering up God Himself, so that in the ultimate moment in His trial and suffering, the demonstration that was being made to the powers was the demonstration of God being [i]all in all,[/i] and bringing to the core of the cosmos His quintessential Self.

When that same demonstration shall come from the church, the triumph will be complete, and the powers demolished. This is the eternal purpose of God for the church. The phrase to be crucified with Christ is not for us an option or a luxury, but the very basis for our overcoming. For once we have experienced [i]that[/i] death, and risen to newness of life, then of what shall we be afraid? This is a call for maturity, for a church to come into its fullness, according to the eternal purpose of God, which He has intended for us, and for which He has created all things. There is a purpose for our being beyond ourselves and beyond the earth, and that affects the ages to come. May we [i]see[/i] our calling, and rise up to meet it, and receive every difficulty, trial and experience that comes into our life as coming from Gods hand. This will give us a new view toward suffering, and a much more realistic anticipation of our future persecution�not something for which we should mourn, but something in which we rejoice at our privilege and high calling, eternally in Him.

[url=http://web.archive.org/web/20041101092929/www.benisrael.org/OnlineBooks/apostolic_foundations/princ_powers.htm]Chapter 3 - Apostolic Realities: The Principalities and Powers of the Air [/url]

G
Goldminer

Who else would bother reckoning?

L
Letham

Hi new to the forum ..What is on the go at the moment ..Letham


G
Goldminer

Dear Mike,

I started to read your post and at some point knew I was reading Art Katz. His name wasn't on it so I checked out your link and sure enough. Nobody who reads Katz could miss his authority.

Thanks for sharing that.

B
BudTexas

CRSCHK thanks for the quote from Art Katz.

In at least two places Art reveals his devotion to the false extreme sovereignty of God doctrine.

In the second paragraph he says, of Paul and Silas "They had such a deep faith in the sovereignty of God, and the privilege of sharing in His sufferings, that they rejoiced, and it was expressed in praise."

As to "faith in the sovereignty of God", this is Art transposing his belief onto Paul and Silas.

Jesus repeatedly spoke of promised pesecution. Paul and Silas believed God's word and indeed, from that, counted it a privilege to share in Christ's sufferings.

In the last paragraph Art, in one sentence, summarizes where the extreme sovereignty of God doctrine will get you. "May we see our calling, and rise up to meet it, and receive every difficulty, trial and experience that comes into our life as coming from Gods hand."

So when your ministry office burns down it is "God's hand". When you are sick it is "God's hand".

How then can you fight sickness if you think it may be a reproof or a teaching from "God's hand"?

How can you even resist besetting sin if all comes from "God's hand".

Let's go back to first grade. "Stealing is bad. Getting a Hostess Cupcake and a star on our forehead is good."

Jesus said, "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

The thief is bad, Jesus is good.

Wrongly putting the blame on God for everything has its benefits however.

First it let's us off the hook for having to fight the good fight of faith and do the ministry we have been commanded to do.

The Lord would rebuke us saying, "O fools, and slow of heart (mentally retarded) to believe all that the prophets have spoken" (including what Prophet Jesus spoke), but we would respond, (wrongly) "We are suffering servants, overcoming saints, enduring to the end".

A second benifit is that by attributing everything as coming from the hand of a sovereign god, we have greatly increased the spiritual activity going on in our lives. We make ourselves appear much more spiritual. We even attribute to ourselves a higher sense of spiritual discernment. We say, "Look, God is doing this, God is doing that, God had me slam my finger in the car door last week because he loves me and is chastening me."

Jesus made it clear what signs would follow those who believe. He told us what spiritual activity we could expect when His Spirit ministered through us; Gospel of the Kingdom preached, sick healed, dead raised, blind eyes openned, etc. We are to do the works Jesus did and greater works than He did.

Well, that's enough for now.

C
crsschk

Dear brother,

May it be that you are reading too much of an idea into everything? The sovereignty of God is not something to be placed in a doctrinal box and then brought down to bear or extracted from every nuisance ...

It seems it is a case of 'finding what you are looking for';

As to "faith in the sovereignty of God", this is Art transposing his belief onto Paul and Silas.

[i] ... and the privilege of sharing in His sufferings, that they rejoiced, and it was expressed in praise."[/i]

The Lord would rebuke us saying, "O fools, and slow of heart (mentally retarded) to believe all that the prophets have spoken" (including what Prophet Jesus spoke), but we would respond, (wrongly) "We are suffering servants, overcoming saints, enduring to the end".

'Slow of heart' regards faith, not mental association ...

“Then He said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken.”

Those words were spoken by Christ on the day of His resurrection: spoken not to worldlings but to Christians. That which occasioned them was this. The disciples to whom He was speaking were lopsided in their theology: they believed a certain part of God’s truth and they refused to believe another part of the truth that did not suit them; they believed some Scriptures but they did not believe all that the prophets had spoken, and the reason they did not was because they were unable to harmonize the two different parts of God’s truth. They were like some people today: when it comes to their theology; they walk by reason and by logic rather than by faith.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15678&post_id=121246&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=34#121246]Christian Fools ~ A.W. Pink[/url]

[i]"Our hearts sank as we stood together helplessly watching our meeting hall and office facility burn to the ground. Many of its contents were precious and irreplaceble. It is a serious set back for this ministry. But though sober and searching, we emulate the grace that was David's when in the face of astonishing disaster, the scripture says of him, "But David encouraged himself in the Lord his God" (1Sam 30:6). And like him, we hope to prove faithful [b]in the same care to seek the Lord's mind and direction for our every decision. We want to humble ourselves before Him[/b], as we embrace His rebuke and instruction. [b]We want to examine ourselves, review, take account, and with one heart seek His face for the way ahead[/b]. We covet the prayers of the saints.[/i]"

It really depends on what perception or in this case, presumption you are bringing to the table. It is just as observable to take notice of those things emboldened from all this. Might not there be some reading between the lines surrounding the word rebuke? As in 'possibility'? Could it not also be just as much a botched expression due to grief? If this was such a adamant rebuking as you would have it, then why ...

"[i]Our hearts sank as we stood together helplessly watching our meeting hall and office facility burn to the ground.[/i]" ?

Why is the heart sad if it be [i]just[/i] a sovereign act and a willingness to be rebuked, it doesn't compute.

Knowing something of Art and his ministry there is no pretense offered and this is not really a defensing, more of a puzzlement that your concerns lie not in sharing with ones suffering but something of a berating of boxed orthodoxy.

You are reading far too much into all this.

C
ChrisJD

"Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." -1 Peter 4:19


[i]I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?[/i] -Isaiah 45:7-9

H
hmmhmm

the hour of suffering is the turning hour of life.

....from the thread Death awaits.... i really liked this quote, there is so much truth in that we have to chew on it for a wile

D
deltadom


the hour of suffering is the turning hour of life.

I find it so Sad!!
Dom

B
BudTexas

crsschk:

Do you agree with Art Katz's statement, "and receive every difficulty, trial and experience that comes into our life as coming from Gods hand."?

Art believes that and that is why the fire burning down their ministry building was reported as something they embrace; "as we embrace His rebuke and instruction."

H
hmmhmm

"edit" (double post)

H
hmmhmm

Rom 5:2 Through Him we also have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice on the hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only this,[i][b][color=CC0000][font=Arial]but we glory in afflictions[/font][/color][/b][/i] also, knowing that afflictions work out patience,


to me, to glory in afflictions, either you are totally insane, or you are right in the heart of Gods will

G2347
θλίψις
thlipsis
Thayer Definition:
1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaphorically oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits


G2347
θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

2Co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2Co 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in watchings, in fastings;
2Co 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

i dont remember who said it, but i belive it to be true


some tell you if your having problems ou are out of the will of God, but i say to you, if you dont have problems you are out of the will of God.......


God bless you all
May he strengthen us all to glory in tribulation and afflictions.

Christian

P
philologos

Art believes that and that is why the fire burning down their ministry building was reported as something they embrace; "as we embrace His rebuke and instruction."

Perhaps Art and the saints at Ben Israel are conscious that some 'rebuke' was necessary? This is not the conclusion I would jump to but if the saints there believe this event to be a rebuke surely God will make it known to them just what he was rebuking?

What kind of parent would dish out discipline without any kind of explanation? We cannot really repent without conviction of sin and it is the work of the Spirit to put his finger right on the spot... the word of God comes in precise power, piercing rather than hacking.“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.” (Heb 4:12-13 NKJV)I say this because if Art and the Ben Israel saints really do believe that God has rebuked them where do we stand with encouragements to support them with funds? Would that not be working against God's rebuke?

C
crsschk

Perhaps Art and the saints at Ben Israel are conscious that some 'rebuke' was necessary?

Ah ... Had been pondering exactly this. It was their statement to begin with and only they themselves could give an adequate answer. Find a great deal of this whole matter an overshooting of thought's and intentions a sort of peculiar dissecting ...

Originally the report was of expressed sadness, of willing to be examined, humbled, seek the Lord, examine, review and lastly coveting of prayers. What a great response to such a sorrowful occasion.

Since the original posting of the summary they have gone on to update and add the following;

"[i]At the request of saints around the world, we provide the following information regarding donations[/i]:"

[url=http://www.benisrael.org/site_content/TMP/BIF_tragedy.htm]Heart Wrenching Scene[/url]

P
psalm1

Hi,please correct me if i am wrong but that is a tiny metal storage shed in that picture.This does not appear to be any big deal.I know it is bad and I am minimizing the situation but I fail to see books and tapes as a great loss. Books from a publisher are a dime a dozen,and I am sure people have tapes that can be recopied.The meeting hall can be rebuilt.I am sure this man has a following that will pitch in to rebuild an even better hall.The hall will be the big expense. Depending on the size of the congregation, it should not take too long.I know i'm making some people mad but I dont think many poor people have the same opportunity as pastors.their house burns down-go sleep under a bridge.They dont have the opportunity to call upon world wide offerings.Go to Honduras and see people still wiped out because of a hurricane that happened 5 yeears ago. Nobody helped them.This year a report came in that the tarahumara indians are starving to death. This is in our backyard!Mexico!...I'm trying not to be mad but when I saw Pay-Pal and "U.S. currency only" ......I got steamed!

G
Goldminer

I think that it was stated the methods of sending an offering were at the requests of believers, me being one.

As far as Ben Israel and Burning Bush go they are not your traditional fellowhip, they are a christian community that has all things in common. They are not the big bucks guys, just a humble fellowship without great numbers and this why their building was humble. This was a great loss for them.

Having said that, God will provide everything they need to accomplish His purposes through them.

A group of people like those associated with Art Katz will not have a big following because they don't preach the popular gospel. If you start listening to some of his sermons available on this site you will see why. It is the tickle my ears folks that bring in big congregations and money. This is a totally different kind of fellowship. We need to support those rightly divide the word.

P
philologos

I think that it was stated the methods of sending an offering were at the requests of believers, me being one.

I'm not wanting to confront you on this but am just trying to understand the situation. Does Art and the Ben Israel community believe that the fire is a rebuke from God and if so how does giving funds to rebuild/restore fit into that?

I know that they are not rattling the collection plate. I have the greatest respect for Art's integrity even though I dispute his theology.

G
Goldminer

From the email I received from a brother there which I posted on this site, they are prayerfully asking God all the questions you asked. I think it is a bit premature to know the answer. When we go through difficulties we have to prayerfully take it before God to know the answers to these things. We don't know always immediately.

As for me, God let me know immediately to help them out. It wasn't that they asked, it was what God laid on my heart. We need to each do as God puts in our hearts to do. There are others who also felt God wanted them to do something and this is what the post on Ben Israel was alluding to.

I personally feel they are to be commended for seeking God before taking any step. They are simply asking God what the next step should be. Even it they only need new computers to share and publish the messages God gives to them, it will cost something. I would rather err on the side of helping a part of the body than to do nothing when God prompted my heart.


This is the quote from their site:

[color=0000CC]We want to humble ourselves before Him, as we embrace His rebuke and instruction. We want to examine ourselves, review, take account, and with one heart seek His face for the way ahead. We covet the prayers of the saints.[/color]

It seems to me they are just seeking to know what God was speaking in all this. That is a good thing. I don't believe they were saying they are being rebuked, but if it is they want to receive it as well. We all must do this with every event of our lives.

P
PreachParsly

I understand what Ron is questioning. In that quote they plainly say they want to enbrace his rebuke. That doesn't sound like they are wondering if it is a rebuke or not.

LATER EDIT: and if it is a rebuke, why aren't you allowing them to embrace it?

B
BudTexas

Folks:

Please!

The issue is the doctrine.

Katz and Ben Israel espouse a doctrine which I call "Extreme Sovereignty of God".

Art Katz's statement is clear, "and receive every difficulty, trial and experience that comes into our life as coming from Gods hand."

This is a misrepresentation of God and it pervades Art's teaching.

Art is not alone in this. Millions of Christians hold to this unscriptural understanding of how God deals with us and how He deals with the world.

Entire denominations (usually Reformed something or other) promote this doctine.

In other things I wish the entire church followed the leadership of Art Katz and Ben Israel. The message of the value of community alone validates their existence (though I don't want to live with folk who say that God teaches us by burning down our buildings).

Art's openning up the scriptures about end time events, Israel and The Church is much needed but mainly ignored. Ignored in part because a true message is presented in the context of that false extreme sovereignty of God doctrine.

I want Art to continue on but to repent where he has missed it.

Art, I think, is a humble enough man to do this. It will be harder for him to reckon that some of his mentors, Karl Barth et al, where wrong. "Fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken."

There are many people sited on this "Sermon Index" web site who hold this terrible doctrine.

Anyone who has access to Art Katz may copy what I have written and send it to Art.

I don't have anymore to say about it.


C
crsschk

Katz and Ben Israel espouse a doctrine which I call "Extreme Sovereignty of God".

That might be your take brother but I do not know that this is any 'doctrine' intended nor particularly held to ... other than by yourself. In other words, you are casting everything into a preposition that you have crafted.

What is missing from your assumption is any proof's that this is so, according to your logic. 'Many people sited' and not listed nor given example and a couple of out takes from Art Katz or his ministry does not constitute a 'doctrine', are we to take your word for it?

Art Katz's statement is clear, "and receive every difficulty, trial and experience that comes into our life as coming from Gods hand."

"[i]As[/i]"

Anyone who has access to Art Katz may copy what I have written and send it to Art.

Is this not your prerogative? Why not ask them yourself rather than raising some suspicion here and asking us to answer questions only they can answer, being that this one lone statement has begun all this. Their contact information is readily available.

The sense you are leaving with this assumption is one of 'everything under one umbrella' and if that is so it would have to be proven consistent. Have never picked up on this idea from all that I have heard and read from Art.

G
Goldminer

I have to agree with Mike. I have read Art Katz a lot and seen him in person and have seen nothing like that.

C
crsschk

There is a bit more ... To be frank I could see where this idea that our brother mentions is a possibility and even where a 'extreme' version taken out of balance is actual ... If I am not mistaken it would be [i]fatalism[/i]. Perhaps the concern as it applies here is where this might all be leading to or insinuated. Just seems to me we ought to be very careful in how the terms are being applied. A lot of accusations are just that, accusations. It is rather difficult to try and unravel that which is being put out as 'fact' over against a perspective of tendencies, either real or imagined.

Think there is a great deal of misunderstanding about the whole matter of God's sovereignty.

P
philologos

crsschk on 2007/3/20 15:24:59
Think there is a great deal of misunderstanding about the whole matter of God's sovereignty.

I think you are right.

B
BudTexas

Goldminer:

Art Katz's statement is clear, "and receive every difficulty, trial and experience that comes into our life as coming from Gods hand."

We don't like to believe that our heroes and mentors are wrong. It makes us look a little foolish for having listened to them.

I met Art in Laredo, Tx around 1980. I was fishing with him in Minnesota on the morning the radio announced the death of Keith Green. I have been to Katz meetings in Brooklyn, NY. I have boxes of Katz cassettes, CDs and DVDs. No one has had a bigger impact on my spiritual life than Art.

I want Art to continue in ministry but repent of this extreme, unscriptural "sovereignty of God" doctrine. It is a misrepresentation of God.


S
sermonindex


Hi Bud,

'No one has had a bigger impact on my spiritual life than Art.

I want Art to continue in ministry but repent of this extreme, unscriptural "sovereignty of God" doctrine. It is a misrepresentation of God.'


So, have you discussed this with him personally?

G
Goldminer

Dear Bud,

I have no heroes except Jesus, however I do have those I respect. I also feel that if you bring an accusastion against a elder it should be in a biblical manner.

[color=0000CC]1Ti 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat [him] as a father; [and] the younger men as brethren;[/color]

[color=0000CC]1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.[/color]


Do I agree with everything Art says, probably not. However I respect him and have been blessed greatly by his ministry. There are very few that I agree with everything they say, but I am careful to go through the biblical steps if I would speak against them.


Also I would be very careful to not pass judgement on someone by one statement. I could take one statement out of the Bible and make an entire doctrine out of it. To take one statement, which we don't even know if Art or someone else from Ben Israel said, and think that represents thier full belief is stretching it a bit for me. If it takes an entire book to partially teach on the sovereignty of God how can we think one statement can sum up ones entire belief system. It is jumping to too many conclusions without giving the accused a chance to defend themselves.

I will end with this, even it it turns out that Art believes in the sovereignty of God the way you describe, I will still love and respect him, he is a wonderful brother in the Lord. I still love you too.


K
KingJimmy

I must say, I've been devouring material by Art Katz since this last summer, having gone through 50+ sermons, a few books, articles, as well as some correspondence with those at Ben Israel, including Katz himself. I can't say I know what this "extreme" view of sovereignty is.

So far as I have seen in his teachings, brother Katz does believe that God intervenes in the affairs of mankind. He is not some sort of distant cosmic deity. Rather, He is a God that is near, and concerned deeply with ever area of life. Indeed, God is involved with every area of life.

With this though, Katz doesn't believe every little thing that happens in life is somehow some big thing in the Divine drama. I have heard him talk of people being sick, getting hurt, etc., and not in anyway somehow trying to attach something of great prophetic significance to their situation. Even though God is involved in the affairs of mankind, sometimes things just happen. However, even during such times, we still can look at such things as a chance to grow in our faith.

All I see with brother Katz here is that Ben Israel is open to hearing what God might be trying to say to them through this recent problem. To deny that God could be speaking to them through such an event is where the heresy lies. Sadly, things happen in our lives every day that people never ask God about what He might be doing. Sadly, many people don't see God involved in our lives or ministries, save to perhaps bless whatever we have been doing.

D
Dovie

It seems to me that humility is the issue here as Ben Israel bows before the Lord in every step of the way. Right now, It is the fire and humility listens to God. The Lord will reveal it all to them. He will guide them and fulfilll the promise that all things work together for good to those who love the Lord.

B
BudTexas

Amp Bible (and others say)

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose.

All things do not work together for good. God works for good in everything toward those who love Him.

We need to humble ourselves in a correct way, in a scriptural manner.

If our humbling is laying down the shield of faith, putting the sword of the spirit, the Word of God, away and using a false doctrine to explain away our refusal to take the authority given each believer then that is not humility.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone.

BudTexas,

"God works for good in everything toward those who love Him."


I don't think that would be possible, except God had control, over everything.

Chris

P
philologos

ChrisJD on 2007/3/24 2:04:01
I don't think that would be possible, except God had control, over everything.

I think it would be very possible. The question is whether or not God 'works all things' or whether he 'works for good'. Has God scripted the circumstances or is he using them?

S
sermonindex


philologos said

Has God scripted the circumstances or is he using them?
If God could script the circumstances of Jesus' life, intending that He should die for the sin of the world, and has allowed many saints to die purely for the honour and glory of His name, since then, I think your question which puts the two aspects of His love at variance with each other, points up the differnce between man's ability to comprehend His ways and His ways which are higher than ours.

If poses a difficulty to human logic, to hold these points together, but surely no more than holding the many apparently contradictory verses of scripture together, as contributing to our greater knowledge of God?

K
KingJimmy


22 Immediately He made the disciples get into the boat and go ahead of Him to the other side, while He sent the crowds away. 23 After He had sent the crowds away, He went up on the mountain by Himself to pray; and when it was evening, He was there alone. 24 But the boat was already a long distance from the land, battered by the waves; for the wind was contrary. 25 And in the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea. 26 When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out in fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take courage, it is I; do not be afraid.”

28 Peter said to Him, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water.” 29 And He said, “Come!” And Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said* to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?” 32 When they got into the boat, the wind stopped. 33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”

I find this an interesting story in Matthew 14:22-33. In this story we find that Jesus commanded the disciples to get into a boat and go across the sea. Then Jesus went ahead and went up the side of a mountain to pray. What I find interesting is that Jesus seems to have deliberately put His disciples through a personal storm in order that they might have a greater revelation of Him, and a greater trust in God's word.

So, sometimes God in His sovereignty does deliberately put us through trying times. In the midst of such, Jesus did have a rebuke for Peter regarding the littleness of his faith. He uses the fires of trial to remove any dross, and refine our character.

B
BudTexas

God acts sovereignly by His Word.

In Mark 4 Jesus reveals THE MYSTERY of the kingdom. THE MYSTERY has been entrusted to us. Everything works through what is discribed as "THE MYSTERY".

If you don't understand this you won't understand anything about the kingdom of God (see verse 13).

11And He said to them, To you has been entrusted the mystery of the kingdom of God [that is, [b]the secret counsels of God which are hidden from the ungodly]; but for those outside [[c]of our circle] everything becomes a parable,

12In order that they may [indeed] look and look but not see and perceive, and may hear and hear but not grasp and comprehend, [d]lest haply they should turn again, and it [[e]their willful rejection of the truth] should be forgiven them.(A)

13And He said to them, Do you not discern and understand this parable? How then is it possible for you to discern and understand all the parables?

14The sower sows the Word.

Of course God is sovereign Col 1:7 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,

God has made His Word Law. He made gravity by His Word and gravity continues to this day. God is not "sovereignly" adjusting gravity according to circumstances or even prayers of His saints.

As to healing, He has said many things. One is "By His stripes, you were healed". Even praying for healing is out of line according to the Word. He has already done it, like gravity.


P
PaulWest

Even praying for healing is out of line according to the Word.

"Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him...and the prayer of faith shall save the sick..." (Jas. 5:14-15)

"...and pray for one another that ye may be healed..." (v.16)

C
ChrisJD

Hi Ron,

"Has God scripted the circumstances or is he using them?"

Or maybe we could put it another way? that is, is God controling the events of history actively, or passively, or both?

A man who, in one, sudden, purposeful act of his will, wins a total and absolute victory over his foe, who before this has checked and opposed him at a thousand different points of contest, though all momentarily and only because he that got the final victory only withstood him passively, that is he did not bring to bear the full measure and potential of his might against him, this one, though he only exercised his control in force once unto victory, [b]yet he was in control all along[/b].


[i]And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.[/i]


[i]Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?[/i]


[i]But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.[/i]


[i]For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?[/i]


Chris

B
BudTexas

The praying in James 5 for the sick is a prayer of faith. That prayer is a speaking to the person a blessing.

The elders, knowing their authority in Christ, would speak healing over the sick. Rebuking the sickness (not of God) to leave, and health (of God) to be manifest.

Peter prayed in this way for a man with a birth defect in Acts 3. He spoke blessing towards the man: "Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk."

Notice, Peter knew what he had and used it.

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
1 of 98 posts

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate