advice on a verse

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I don't understand this verse..It says God is long suffering and not willing that any should perish,so he waits..But surly the longer he waits the more people are born,and more people live and then die and perish..By waiting surly He does the opposite of what Hes wishing?

aj

strawrifle wrote:

I don't understand this verse..It says God is long suffering and not willing that any should perish,so he waits..But surly the longer he waits the more people are born,and more people live and then die and perish..By waiting surly He does the opposite of what Hes wishing?

Life is a gift and the more people who are born, the more people who may be with Him, that would give Him more Glory.

Hi Strawrifle, how are you?

I've had some similar thoughts about this verse, in thinking of it as it is often mentioned.

But then, something just stood out to me though, as I was thinking of another way I've heard this explained. What stands out is this...[i]us-ward[/i]. Other translations that I'm looking at have it as [b]to you[/b] or [b]you-ward[/b]. I think that is significant.

Chris

Hi Logic no i'm not implying that,but it just struck me as kind of catch 22..True more will be with Him,but also more wont..It says He wishes no one to perish,but while waiting He creates more people knowing some will..

Chris yes thats a great point,ur saying it's more a personal verse?

andy

II Peter 3:9 is a beautiful verse that demonstrates the love of God.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Some people emphasize the words 'not willing' and say that God is so patient and not willing that any person in the world perish that he is waiting for all men to come to repentance. But as strawrifle pointed out

It says God is long suffering and not willing that any should perish,so he waits..But surly the longer he waits the more people are born,and more people live and then die and perish..By waiting surly He does the opposite of what Hes wishing?

I affirm that the Lord does not delight in the death of anyone, but take a closer look at the verse.

To whom is God longsuffering? Us.

Who is the 'Us' referring to? The Beloved mentioned in verse 8. "But, beloved"

Who are the Beloved? The people Peter is addressing in his letter.
Verse 1 - "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you."

To whom is Peter writing this letter? Those who come to a saving knowledge of Christ--Christians.
2 Peter 1:1 - "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

But this is the second letter, what does the first say about the intended audience? 1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."

Peter is not saying in this verse that God is patient with all men hoping that every person comes to repentance. Peter is saying that the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to his elect concerning his second coming. The Lord is longsuffering because he is not willing that anyone elected according to the foreknowledge of God should perish before the second coming and that all of the elect come to repentance.

Job 33:8 ¶ Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of [thy] words, [saying],
9 I am clean without transgression, I [am] innocent; neither [is there] iniquity in me.
10 Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,
11 He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.
12 ¶ Behold, [in] this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, [yet man] perceiveth it not.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
17 That he may withdraw man [from his] purpose, and hide pride from man.
18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
19 ¶ He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong [pain]:
20 So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
21. His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones [that] were not seen stick out.
22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
23 ¶ If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
27 He looketh upon men, and [if any] say, I have sinned, and perverted [that which was] right, and it profited me not;

Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.

Job 33:29 Lo, all these [things] worketh God oftentimes with man,

Look at the last verse of this sequence...God is patient, He is not willing that any perish...for He give witness...listen to Proverbs.

Pro 1:20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, [saying],
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

God freely gives counsel to all, God is patient and calls out to all. In the above verses, the Holy Spirit brings wisdom from God. The question is do we choose to hear?

In Christ
Jeff

[b][color=CC0000]2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [/color][/b]

Many calvinists, interpret this verse as Jay did, frankly they have no choice but to interpret it that way, if they did not, it would destroy their theology.

Let me start with the first phrase,

[b][color=CC0000]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;[/color][/b]

The obvious meaning of this phrase is that the Lord fulfills his promises completely and totally, and is not lacking on any part of any single promise.

[b][color=CC0000]but is longsuffering to us-ward,[/color][/b]

Now, a calvinist says that that is us, "the elect". But if you read the rest of the verse, the tenses don't match with their interpretation of it.

I submit to you, that the us is man, the tense of the entire verse is present tense, and as such, if Peter is talking about himself, then he is saying that he has not yet repented, and God is being patient with him until he does. But we already know he has repented, so he is not talking about himself.

So, either Peter does not consider himself to be one of "the elect", or he is not talking about himself, and is thus talking about man.

[b][color=CC0000]not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/color][/b]

I believe this phrase is self-explanatory. It is not God's will for any man to go to hell, hell was created for the devil and his angels, not man. And God does not want man to go to hell. God cannot overide man's free will, so he is patient with him, showing him much mercy and longsuffering.

And yes, God realizes that the longer he waits, the more people will be born. But they have the same opportunity as we do who are already saved, and the same as God was long suffering toward us, He will be towards them as well.

Ben and I have presented two views of 2 Peter 3:9. I pray that each person would pray about which is true and which is false. Let God be the judge and let us all glorify His holy name.

If God is willing to save "all", but cannot save "all", the He must not be Almighty for there is something that is more powerful than Him, that being the free will of man. Thus free will becomes diefied and we are left with an impotent god who really really would like to save all men, but cannot because the created thing has usurped the power of the Creator.

Brother Ben could I take Romans 8:28 and give it to an unbeliever to comfort them? Of course not, because it is not written to the unbeliever, but rather the Saint who is in Christ. Thus we must factor in the audience to which the Epistle is addressed as Jay has done a wonderful job of doing.

There is much danger in thinking that man somehow is more powerful than God. Arminian theology has opened the door for many of the problems we have today. The idea that there is any good in man has led to much of the new age teachings that god is in all of us, it has led to universal ideas that we are all God's children, it has opened the door to universalism and many self centered pursuits of religious experience.

If we would simply start at the first point
Total Inability which declares that man is dead in sin, and can do nothing but sin we might begin to see things differently. I fear that we have made too little of sin, and have thus made too little of a Saviour, and now we are reaping the reprecussions.

P.S. This is coming from one who used to be the Arminian of Arminians, so please take that into consideration. I did not arrive at these conclusions from any book other than the Scriptures. Then I read other works to see if what I was sensing was true throughout Historical Christian Doctrine.

If God is willing to save "all", but cannot save "all", the He must not be Almighty for there is something that is more powerful than Him, that being the free will of man. Thus free will becomes diefied and we are left with an impotent god who really really would like to save all men, but cannot because the created thing has usurped the power of the Creator.

This is a common claim by calvinists everywhere, that if God wanted everyone to be saved, then they would be.

Answer me this: [b] Is it God's will for man to sin?[/b]

I will answer the question for you, NO, it is not his will for man to sin. It is His will that men would walk in righteousness. But man still sins.

In the same way, It is not God's will for men to die and go to hell, it is His will for them to be saved, but men still act contrary to God's will, as they have since Adam sinned.
What you fail to realize is that it does not deitize free will, it makes it pivotal to the Christian faith. You cannot be saved unless you believe. God draws you, calls you, reaches out to you. All in perfection, and then you have the choice to either believe or not. You cannot prove that man does not have to choose to believe in the scripture without digging for a needle in a haystack of other scriptures that teach that you do.

Jesus says that if Tyre and Sidon had seen the signs and wonders that the Jews saw, they would have believed. He placed the blame upon both the Jews, and also upon Tyre and Sidon for not believing. If only He could bestow irrisistable grace, He could not then have blamed either the Jews, or Tyre and Sidon for not believing, because they could not anyways. That would be called an unrighteous judgment.

Brother Ben could I take Romans 8:28 and give it to an unbeliever to comfort them? Of course not, because it is not written to the unbeliever, but rather the Saint who is in Christ. Thus we must factor in the audience to which the Epistle is addressed as Jay has done a wonderful job of doing.

Actually, if you do an apologetic study of the entire book of Romans, it was written to the Jews who had a conflict with the gospel that Paul was preaching. Only a small section is written to others, (the gentiles) which is found in chapters 10 and 11.

So I am sorry, but you are incorrect in this point. If you take any verse from Romans without first doing a whole book study, you rob the verse of its intended meaning. When the Bible was written, it was not seperated by chapter and verse. Although chapters and verses are a helpful guide through the Bible, they have caused far more error in interpretation than justifies that purpose.

When you said "total inability" are you referring to "Total Depravity"? Because that is contrary not only to Romans 1 and 2, but many other sections of the Bible.

Ben,

Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?

or

Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?

Jay wrote:

Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?

or

Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?

Neither, God [u]has[/u] atoned for all men's sins, and in so doing was able to offer every man salvation.

The reson for giving man free will in the matter is because God wants genuine love, and belief. If he gives them all those things, and changes all their desires, than they are no different than the angels of which he already has many.

By offering a choice, it sorts out who is truly in love with him, and who is not. He is no respecter of persons, therefore He cannot choose one man over another in salvation.

Ben,

Come on now you cannot avoid the questions. :-) Either God has the ability to save and doesn't or he does not have the ability.

Also, if God has atoned for all men's sins then all men would go to heaven because their would be no basis for judgment.

How can God atone for all men's sins and yet punish man for the sin of unbelief? Did Jesus not atone for all sins?

Hi all,though i'm honored that you all replied,it wasnt my intention to turn this into a Calvinist vs Arminianism discussion..

It was more the question that while God waits more people are born,and that God always run the risk of more perishing,that perplexed me..

As far as Calvinism or Arminianism,as the parable goes were all holding a part of an Elephant in the dark,but the same Elephant none the less..

aj

I agree that Peter had repented - at least three times, perhaps - but surely all of us need the goodness of God to lead us to repentance even more often?

Absolutely, but that is not what I was addressing, I was addressing repentance toward salvation, not sanctification.

It is a serious mistake to start carving scripture up and aportioning it to ethnic groups. I ask you to reconsider this approach, seeing Jesus said

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was not saying that those scriptures are for jews only, I was saying that Paul was talking to the Jews, so when we take what he said to the jews, and pull parts of it out of context, we will miss entirely the message that was being spoken.

I absoluteley believe romans applies to us, just as it does to the Jews. But if you read it from any other preface than that of how it was written, and why it was written, you lose the truth, and obtain religious jargon that means little.

in the context of the letter, it should be applied to those to whom it was written, only (don't you think)?

I respectfully disagree. The context of the letter shows that Peter is explaining that God is patient because he wants all who will come to a saving knowledge of Christ to do so; not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.

This ties in well with the 'fullness of the Gentiles' mentioned by Paul in Romans 11:
"Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

Also Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

It was more the question that while God waits more people are born,and that God always run the risk of more perishing,that perplexed me..

I apologize strawrifle for moving this away from where you were intending.

I hope you found my previous answer to 2 Peter 3:9 helpful. If not, let me know.

Hi Jay, its all good lol

in fact Chris reply as given me something to chew over..
aj

Ben,
If the book of Romans is only to the Jews as you have said, then what is our hope? seeing that is one of the most precise treatments of man's condition(both Jew and Gentile), as well as the glory of God's grace.

Also, to make it only apply to the Jews, you would be going against at least a thousand years of Church History, as well as many of the men who are on this site. Are you really willing to do that?

I do not know what resources you have used to exegete, and study this Book, but may I suggest reading Matthew Henry's Commentary on this book?

Also, if we were to discount the books of the Bible because of who they were written to, we wouldn't have much to stand on would we?

:-)

Jaysaved wrote:

Come on now you cannot avoid the questions. Either God has the ability to save and doesn't or he does not have the ability.

This is not really the question that is present in Scripture. Rather Scripture says...

Pro 1:20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, [saying],
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23. Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

God's Spirit cries out to all men. His Spirit is all around us. All men are given witness of the Godhead...

Scripture clearly points to the fact that God gives man a choice based on what the Spirit witnesses to man...

Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

If you read these words carefully you will recognize where Paul received wisdom from God through the Holy Spirit to write of the things found in Romans chapter 1.

And what does Scripture say of those who choose to hear?

Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

God truly cannot lie...He truly wishes that all would come to repentance and as provision for that truth He gives His Holy Spirit as counsel. It is not His fault that most men rebel.

In Christ
Jeff

JaySaved wrote:

How can God atone for all men's sins and yet punish man for the sin of unbelief? Did Jesus not atone for all sins?

May I attempt to answer your question?
Lets say I bought a ticket to go watch your favorite sports team. The ticket is bought and paid for and I offer it to you, you refuse to
accept the free gift and so you do not enter to
watch the game. Who is at fault that you did not
watch the game? It was my will for you to go or I would not have offered you the ticket. You chose not to accept my will so the fault would
lie with you.
Rev. 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God will punish man for the sin of unbelief for
the same reason it is your fault for not accepting the ticket. If a man refuses the conviction of the Holy Spirit and refuses the
gift of eternal life, it is blasphemy against
the Holy spirit and that sin was not attoned for.
Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

May we all be doers and not hearers only,

pastorfrin

Thank you for your responses I appreciate them, but no one so far has answered the questions. Basically you are telling me that man is held responsible for his unbelief. I agree.

But that does not answer the two questions:

Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?

or

Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?

Ben told me neither.
rookie and pastorfrin told me that God holds men accountable for unbelief.

All I am asking is for someone to tell me that God either has the ability to save all men and chooses not to save all men because of His respect for free will or He does not have the ability to save all men because of free will.

All I am asking is for someone to tell me that God either has the ability to save all men and chooses not to save all men because of His respect for free will or He does not have the ability to save all men because of free will.

When you look for an answer to something that is unscriptural on either count, you will have a hard time getting a doctrinally sound answer.

[b]God atoned for all men's sins, and then requires them to believe that he has done so. If they will not believe, than they will not be saved. He does not do so for the respect of man's will, he does it to receive genuine love.[/b]

To assume that the only reason he would do it is for respect, [b]is to deny God of His infinite attribute of love, which is the motivation for every action He takes.[/b]Rather, we are to interpret God's actions by that very thing, as the purpose behind why He would do any given thing.

For what it is worth, Christ is the saviour of all mankind. (according to scripture.)

God atoned for all men's sins, and then requires them to believe that he has done so.

You said God requires them to believe, did God choose to do it this way? or is God forced to do it this way?

You said God requires them to believe, did God choose to do it this way? or is God forced to do it this way?

God chose to allow men the opportunity to receive grace by believing. So that it would create genuine love.

God was not forced to do this, He could just have easily created a world without free will, and filled it with angels. But His divine motivation of love played a major part in His choosing of men who would in turn have to make decisions just like He does.

Thus part of the fulfilment of "making man in our image". It is not just an outward thing, God made man to be internally like Him, so that we could reason, and fellowship with Him just as Adam did. Only greater because we have the Spirit of God within us now, which they did not.

God chose to allow men the opportunity to receive grace by believing. So that it would create genuine love.

God was not forced to do this, He could just have easily created a world without free will, and filled it with angels. But His divine motivation of love played a major part in His choosing of men who would in turn have to make decisions just like He does.

So I can take your answer above and apply it to my questions as follows:

Question 1:
Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?
Yes. God has the ability to save all men but chooses not to because he wants genuine love. Therefore God could have saved all men but chose not to do so.

Question 2:
Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?
No. God was not forced to do this. He could have created a world where everyone went to heaven and no one went to hell but he chose not to. God could have saved all men but chose not to do so.

Is this a fair answer to my questions?

Jay Wrote:

Is this a fair answer to my questions?

Well Jay, let me answer each question individually, neither answer is fair to me, because I don't believe either answer to be true according to scripture. So here goes:

Question 1:[b]Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?[/b]
Yes. God has the ability to save all men but chooses not to because he wants genuine love. Therefore God could have saved all men but chose not to do so.

The answer to this question is no. The reason it is no, is because it is a double question, the first part cancels the second part, and vice versa.

God did save all men, as we read here:

[b][color=CC0000]I John 4:14

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.[/color][/b]

[b][color=CC0000]I John 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.[/color][/b]

God then says to man, I have bought you with my son's life, believe it and live, refuse it and die.

God placed certain laws in balance, just like He made it so that if we sin we die, He also made free will, God has chosen out of wisdom not to overide a man's will, He created it so that it could not be done.

It is not an issue of "does God choose not to save man?" because He already has saved man, in so doing, we are indebted to Him, so God says to us, believe in me, it is a free gift that I paid for. If we choose not to believe in Him, then we will not be allowed into the kingdom of God.

As John said, the propitiation for every man's sin has been paid, if that one statement alone is true, then we must believe that either every man will be in heaven, or every man must make a choice to believe. Jesus countlessly holds nations and individuals accountable for not believing. Belief is the standard that God set for salvation to be received by man.

Question 2:[b]Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?[/b]
No. God was not forced to do this. He could have created a world where everyone went to heaven and no one went to hell but he chose not to. God could have saved all men but chose not to do so.

This question also cancels itself out just as the first one. First of all, man had nothing to do with God sending His son to die, and be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. God chose to be the saviour of all mankind, past and present, and then to give eternal life only to those who believed.

We are told that Abraham "believed" God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. So as it was even to those looking forward to the promise of salvation, it is the same to us now who are looking back at the promise of salvation. We must choose to believe God, even as Abraham did, or we will be counted out of our inheritance.

God has already given us all things, but He desires an action on our part. Without us giving that action of belief, we cannot receive our inheritance. Man's free will prevents God in no way from saving man, but it does prevent Him from giving us our inheritance.

That does not make free will more powerful than God, because God created free will. Man's unbelief did not stop God from sending His son to die.

It's sort of like this, if you or I were to play a grandmaster in chess, say Gary Kasperov, do you honestly believe that your choice or mine would prevent him from checkmating us? At that point we would have the choice of throwing the board off the table and refusing to accept the truth. Or we could accept what Gary did. It is the same with salvation, God checkmated man by offering Him everything possible, and man is sitting there deciding whether he will accept what God did for him, or throw the board on the table.

I hope I explained well enough why neither question or their answer were fair. But I hope that from these answers, the Lord will show us both insight into Him.

Ben,

Is there a person in hell who has had their sins atoned for by Jesus?

Ben I must ask you a question,
If God has done everything He can to save man, but ultimately the choice is up to man to decide, then why pray to God to save people? Why not resort to anything that will get man to "make a decision fo Christ"?

Also why is it that you have no problem saying God is sovereign over your health, finances, etc but suddenly He becomes un-sovereign in the realm of salvation?

If God is omniscient, and did not know one thing He would not be omniscient right?
If God is omnipotent, and is limited in any way, He is not omnipotent right?

It seems that many today have made an idol in a sense. They would like the God of Calvinism when it comes to their lives because He is in control of all things, and is watching out for them. But when it comes to salvation they want an Arminian god who allows man free-will to decide on Christ when it is convenient for him to do so.

Do you see the lack of logic, and the sheer contradiction of God's character if you say He is all powerful until it comes to salvation?

I John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This does not mean the whole world as in the totality of mankind. John was showing the Jews he was writing to that salvation was not just to them. It is similar to when Scripture says, "all Judaea went after him." We know that all Judaea did not go after Christ or all the Scribes and Pharisees would have gone after him as well.

So we have to reckon on the fact that God is the potter who has complete and utter control over His creation. He can form a vessel to dishonour if he feels like it can He not? Pharaoh is a perfect example of this, as are all of the people who were destroyed by the flood, by the wars with Israel.

If God has done everything He can to save man, but ultimately the choice is up to man to decide, then why pray to God to save people? Why not resort to anything that will get man to "make a decision for Christ"?

Excellent point!

Ben if you position is true, why do we pray for God to save a person? Why do we ask God to 'break down any and all barriers' (heard many arminians pray that). If God has done everything He can and the salvation simply rests in the decision of man, then we don't we pray as follows:

"Lord my friend is not saved. I don't know why I am telling you about it because you are powerless at this point--seeing as how you have done all you can. I guess I am just asking you to help me not be anxious about it. I pray that you would send people to my friend to tell him more about you, but I understand that even if people told him day after day, his salvation solely rests on whether or not he is smart enough, wise enough, and intelligent enough to make his choice."

Nobody prays that way! And that is the point.

Also, as roaringlamb said, why don't we do whatever it takes to get someone to make the decision? I believe this is the reason why so many people are false converts. We have limited the gospel to 3 or 4 points. Then we declare that all who intellectually understand these are Christians.

Ben, I say this in all due respect to you. I love you as a brother in Christ and I have no doubt that you love and honor God.

But you spent an entire post telling me why you don't agree with the answer to my questions and then in your post you agreed with my answers.

I wrote:

Question 1:
Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?

[The response I gathered from your words]

Yes. God has the ability to save all men but chooses not to because he wants genuine love. Therefore God could have saved all men but chose not to do so.

You say that this answer is not fair because you don’t believe the answer.
Then you say,

God placed certain laws in balance, just like He made it so that if we sin we die, He also made free will, God has chosen out of wisdom not to overide a man's will, He created it so that it could not be done.

Whether you want to admit it or not, you have just stated that God has the ability to save all men but “God has chosen out of wisdom not to override a man’s will. He created it so that it could not be done.” Do you see that? God has the ability to override free will and save man but he chooses not to.

Next question:

Question 2:
Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?

[The response I gathered from your words]

No. God was not forced to do this. He could have created a world where everyone went to heaven and no one went to hell but he chose not to. God could have saved all men but chose not to do so.

You say that this answer is not fair because you don’t believe the answer.
Then you say,

God has already given us all things, but He desires an action on our part. Without us giving that action of belief, we cannot receive our inheritance. Man's free will prevents God in no way from saving man, but it does prevent Him from giving us our inheritance.

Once again, whether you want to admit it or not, you have just stated that God does not have the ability to bring people into heaven because of man’s Free Will. You say that God has the ability to save men but that salvation is dependent upon Free Will, in other words, God cannot apply the effects of salvation to all men because of Free Will.

I must admit that I agree with you that a man must have faith in order to receive the salvation, but I disagree in that man can thwart God from giving salvation to those whose sins have been atoned for. My position is that faith comes as a response to God’s saving grace and eternal life is given “to all whom you have given [the Son]”. (John 17:2).

Ben, you have been very clear, and blessedly, covered the topic well while remaining reasonably short on your post.

I am so glad to hear what I think expressed so excellantly. Having 'thunked it', I'd like to take credit, but it's all yours! 8-)

Many Blessings,

Excellant choice of verses. Jeff. Which version of the Bible did you use?

Blessings,

roaringlamb wrote:
If God is willing to save "all", but cannot save "all", the He must not be Almighty for there is something that is more powerful than Him, that being the free will of man. Thus free will becomes diefied and we are left with an impotent god who really really would like to save all men, but cannot because the created thing has usurped the power of the Creator.

Oh, please not this interpretation! God has the power to do anything. The point of this verse is that God 'cannot' do certain things without breaking His own laws, which He will not do.

Why do you think God went through several Covenants, setting up the types of Jesus's sacrifice, and the precedent of the Kinsman Redeemer!

Brother Ben could I take Romans 8:28 and give it to an unbeliever to comfort them? Of course not, because it is not written to the unbeliever, but rather the Saint who is in Christ. Thus we must factor in the audience to which the Epistle is addressed as Jay has done a wonderful job of doing.

Not if you place it back in context, and read from the point of view of the entire Bible.

24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he (JESUS) maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (HE WOULDN'T BOTHER IF INTERCESSION DIDN'T WORK!)
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (AND ALL MEN ARE CALLED. NOT ALL MEN AGREE.)
29. For whom he did foreknow,(GOD FOREKNOWS EVERYTHING, AND PREDESTINATION IS KNOWLEDGE OF AN END RESULT, NOT THE CREATION OF IT!) he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (JESUS BEING THE FIRST OF THE END RESULT, AND THUS THE FIRST FRUITS)
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

It is always a mistake to read even a whole chapter of the Bible without considering the whole of the Bible. In it we have the History of God continuously trying to persuade those whom He calls to obey, that they might be blessed, and have eternal life.

There is much danger in thinking that man somehow is more powerful than God. Arminian theology has opened the door for many of the problems we have today. The idea that there is any good in man has led to much of the new age teachings that god is in all of us, it has led to universal ideas that we are all God's children, it has opened the door to universalism and many self centered pursuits of religious experience.

In this I agree. Only those who are God's children, elect, chosen, are His children by faith, whether it be in the ages before Christ, or the ages since, and through Christ.

If we would simply start at the first point Total Inability which declares that man is dead in sin, and can do nothing but sin we might begin to see things differently. I fear that we have made too little of sin, and have thus made too little of a Saviour, and now we are reaping the reprecussions.

Yes, but God does make us ready, giving us the hearing of the word that we might have faith, slowly preparing our understanding for the question, 'Will it be Yes, or No?" And remember that all the angels in heaven rejoice when just one of us says 'Yes'! It's that big a deal!

P.S. This is coming from one who used to be the Arminian of Arminians, so please take that into consideration. I did not arrive at these conclusions from any book other than the Scriptures. Then I read other works to see if what I was sensing was true throughout Historical Christian Doctrine.

Understandable, but we all must go to the whole Bible, not just part of it for our answers. Neither Calvinists nor Arminians look at the whole of the Bible, but focus in too tightly on verses that suit their beliefs.

God Bless,

Christ die for everyone - EVERYONE! But not all are willing to let God take over their lives, even long enough to say yes. The rest of us manage submission bit by bit, day by day, and Jesus makes up for our inability. But at least He know we love, trust, adore, and worship Him. You won't find anyone like that in hell.

Blessings,

Hi as I started this thread I thought I'd say how I read the replies..

I dislike Calvinisms immensely,but that doesn't mean its wrong hehe..
But as much as I dislike it of the two options, it strikes me it makes sense, if God is Sovereign..

Psa 69:25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
Psa 109:8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office

we read later in Judas this prophecy comes true

Act 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this Scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas..

So the OT shows us that someone had to fulfill this prophecy,if not Judas then someone...Whoever that was,salvation wasn't on offer for them i.e not elect
aj

Brother Forest asked:

Which version of the Bible did you use?

I pulled it off the Blue Letter Bible site...King James.

In Christ
Jeff

Calvinism is outdated. The New Testement election were of the remnant Jews who were being saved, from Pentecost to 70AD.

These you speak of here; Paul also speaks of...

Rom 11:1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Look to the very last verse...
Those during Paul's time were included into those whom God elected as the remnant in the generations preceding Paul's generation.

In Christ
Jeff

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

First one is given an opportunity to hear God's word. Then one is given the choice to believe.

How does hearing and believing cause one to pass from death unto life? How does our Savior's words convey us from death to life?

In Christ
Jeff

You really expect me to believe in an invisible God, who says in a book that man writes, that He Gave His Son for me? What good does that do. You say God created out of nothing the world, and our of dirt He created man and out of man He created a woman? How can anyone believe in something that is not provable? You all must be crazy. I would be crazy to believe in this stuff.

There is only one way I came to believe, It was the Holy Spirit that proved to me that all this is true. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, through Faith that has been given me and with God showing and teaching me the truth of the scriptures, I would still be lost and not believing. It is God that has done it not anything that I have done or conceived or believed, it is God.

Ephesians 2:7-10 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Is this true to you. If it is, you have been visited by the Holy Spirit and given the faith to believe and God has created you in Christ Jesus, which God has ordained. No man can ordain himself to believe or be saved. It is God and God only that has revealed His Son in you.

I don't need to know how, unless it pleases God to reveal it to me. All I need to do is thank Him for what He has done in Christ Jesus. I am dead, it is no longer I who live but His Son Jesus Christ who lives in me. The life I now live because of God's work in me, not my work in me, this Life is Christ and that is what God intended before the world was ever created. No one was ever created to be pleasing to God on his own. It cannot be. It is proven by all who have tried to tell each other and God, that He is not fair unless He gives man free will to choose Him. Man would not, so lets praise God for Christ in us and allow Him to make us what He wants us to be in this Christ.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Do you believe this? If you do, it is God who has revealed the truth of it to you.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The Law killed me, praise God. It is God. The Law is God. The Grace, Jesus Christ is God. It is all of God. Fall on our knees and praise Him, that by His Grace and His Son are we son's of God.

Colossians 1:24-29 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Paul spoke very clear on this and if you believe Paul it is God by the Holy Spirit that has revealed it to you and the only reason you believe. Praise God For His Grace and His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit that makes us saved by, The Union of The God Head revealed in us and birthed in us and given in us.

It is God!!!!!!! Not Arminius or Calvin, If any life in any thing they say it is God, not them.

Pray that God would send us to the ones He has prepared to be saved that we might have fellowship with those that are new in our family, that is Gods Family, fellow heirs in Christ Jesus, adopted son's and birthed by the Father's Seed in us, which is Christ Jesus, now our Brother, our Lord, our Savior, our all in all.

It is God.. In Christ: Phillip

Here are couple questions to ponder.
1) If God is omnipotent(all powerful), then how much of His power can be limited without Him not being omnipotent?
2) If God is omniscient(all knowing), then how much can He not know and yet remain all knowing?

Also, what do you do with this
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10 [b]Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:[/b]

Then compare this with Ephesians 1
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as [b]he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,[/b] that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, [b]according to the good pleasure of his will,[/b]

God obviously has a plan for this world, and the Bible as well as History show that He alone dictates what transpires. If God has not power to rule the Earth, then why trust Him with your health, your finances? Either He is sovereign, or He is not, we cannot play games with words, and say, "well yes He is sovereign, but not whne it comes to salvation."

Why would you ever pray for God to change a person's heart, or ask Him to give you favour in someone's eyes if He cannot?

How about this verse(I understand I am using single verse, but to put a whole list would be very long, I would suggest you use a Nave's Topical Bible, and look under "predestination", "foreknowledge", "sovereignty")
Proverbs 16:4 [b]The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.[/b]

Read the last four chapters of Job, and realize how little man is. I know that this is an emotional issue, but logic dictates that God cannot be sovereign and limited at the same time. Logic would prove that He cannot know all, yet not know all.

In reference to Christ dying for everyone. If this is true, then ewhy is not everyone saved? Where is the problem?
Is it in the efficacy of the blood?
Is it in the non belief of man?

Also for the post about the Gentiles being "whoseover will", what do you then make of this verse?
Acts 13:48 And when [b]the Gentiles heard this,[/b] they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and [b]as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.[/b]

Again I do not question the validity of the love and zeal for Christ, but only seek to sharpen one another. Also may I point out that I myself am struggling with the issues presented within Reformed Theology, but it is becoming increasinly more reasonable as I study and pray about it.

Roaringlamb,

I love this quote: ""When confused sheep start over a cliff the individual sheep can save himself only by separating from the flock.""

May I add: "When confused sheep start over a cliff the individual sheep can save himself only by (hearing then heeding the Shepherds voice) and separating from the (old flock and joining the new) flock.
In Christ Jesus the Only Shepherd in saving the lambs.

In Christ: Phillip

Amen, and I like what you said, about neither Calvin nor Arminius.

roaringlamb wrote:

If God has not power to rule the Earth, then why trust Him with your health, your finances? Either He is sovereign, or He is not, we cannot play games with words, and say, "well yes He is sovereign, but not whne it comes to salvation."

Job 34:

10 \t“Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
\tFar be it from God to do wickedness,
\tAnd from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
11 \tFor He repays man according to his work,
\tAnd makes man to find a reward according to his way.
12 \tSurely God will never do wickedly,
\tNor will the Almighty pervert justice.
13 \tWho gave Him charge over the earth?
\tOr who appointed Him over the whole world?
14 \tIf He should set His heart on it,
\tIf He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 \tAll flesh would perish together,
\tAnd man would return to dust.
16 \t“If you have understanding, hear this;
\tListen to the sound of my words:
17 \tShould one who hates justice govern?
\tWill you condemn Him who is most just?
18 \tIs it fitting to say to a king, “You are worthless,’
\tAnd to nobles, ‘You are wicked’?
19 \tYet He is not partial to princes,
\tNor does He regard the rich more than the poor;
\tFor they are all the work of His hands.
20 \tIn a moment they die, in the middle of the night;
\tThe people are shaken and pass away;
\tThe mighty are taken away without a hand.
21 \t“For His eyes are on the ways of man,
\tAnd He sees all his steps.
22 \tThere is no darkness nor shadow of death
\tWhere the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
23 \tFor He need not further consider a man,
\tThat he should go before God in judgment.
24 \tHe breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
\tAnd sets others in their place.
25 \tTherefore He knows their works;
\tHe overthrows them in the night,
\tAnd they are crushed.
26 \tHe strikes them as wicked men
\tIn the open sight of others,
27 \tBecause they turned back from Him,
\tAnd would not consider any of His ways,

God is the ruler no doubt. Yet what does Scripture say of man...

Again...11 \tFor He repays man according to his work,
\tAnd makes man to find a reward according to his way.
and also...

24 \tHe breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
\tAnd sets others in their place.
25 \tTherefore He knows their works;
\tHe overthrows them in the night,
\tAnd they are crushed.
26 \tHe strikes them as wicked men
\tIn the open sight of others,
27 \tBecause they turned back from Him,
\tAnd would not consider any of His ways,

These men were chosen by God to rule yet what does Scripture say of most men?

"Because they turned back from Him, and would not consider any of His ways"

How does this precept work with God's rule?

In Christ
jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

I don't need to know how, unless it pleases God to reveal it to me.

Brother, what do you know about the individual that wrote these words?

5 \tOh, that my ways were directed
\tTo keep Your statutes!
6 \tThen I would not be ashamed,
\tWhen I look into all Your commandments.
7 \tI will praise You with uprightness of heart,
\tWhen I learn Your righteous judgments.
8 \tI will keep Your statutes;
\tOh, do not forsake me utterly!
9 \tHow can a young man cleanse his way?
\tBy taking heed according to Your word.
10 \tWith my whole heart I have sought You;
\tOh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 \tYour word I have hidden in my heart,
\tThat I might not sin against You.
12 \tBlessed are You, O LORD!
\tTeach me Your statutes.
13 \tWith my lips I have declared
\tAll the judgments of Your mouth.
14 \tI have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,
\tAs much as in all riches.
15 \tI will meditate on Your precepts,
\tAnd contemplate Your ways.
16 \tI will delight myself in Your statutes;
\tI will not forget Your word.
17 \tDeal bountifully with Your servant,
\tThat I may live and keep Your word.
18 \tOpen my eyes, that I may see
\tWondrous things from Your law.

What are his prayers? Is he satisfied?

Solomon writes this admonition to us...

Proverbs 9

4 \t“Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!”
\tAs for him who lacks understanding, she says to him,
5 \t“Come, eat of my bread
\tAnd drink of the wine I have mixed.
6 \tForsake foolishness and live,
\tAnd go in the way of understanding.

Also

Proverbs 14

15 \tThe simple believes every word,
\tBut the prudent considers well his steps.

There is more to this Life of Christ dwelling in us than one might know if he only concentrates only on the Episitle's of Paul.

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

Calvanist only see straight ahead, they can't seem to see the whole picture

P. S. I like the way you explained things BenW.

Suffering..it was the way of the master, should not the servant tread it still (leonard ravenhill)

Jay Wrote:

Is there a person in hell who has had their sins atoned for by Jesus?

Absoluteley, men have chosen not to believe in God, and in so doing are condemned to hell.

So it is not our sins that send us to hell, it is our unbelief that sends us to hell?

What about the people who do not ever hear the gospel of Jesus are they still condemned because of their unbelief?

roaringlamb Wrote:

Ben I must ask you a question,If God has done everything He can to save man, but ultimately the choice is up to man to decide, then why pray to God to save people? Why not resort to anything that will get man to "make a decision fo Christ"?

Because it is not the decision that gives them eternal life, it is the belief. Churches today are doing everything they can to get a decision, and two weeks later, the emotion is gone, and the person no longer cares what happened. We must follow Biblical example, and preach the gospel that Christ told us to preach. Not just get decisions.

Also why is it that you have no problem saying God is sovereign over your health, finances, etc but suddenly He becomes un-sovereign in the realm of salvation?

Here is the problem, you believe that by man having any part to play in salvation (belief and repentance) that God is now somehow no longer sovereign. This is not the case, God sovereingly allows man choice, if God did not allow him that choice, God would still be sovereign. That is the difference between us, I believe that God is sovereign in everything He does, because He says He is.

You believe that God is only sovereign when He is controlling everything. I believe that God is sovereign even when He allows man to make a choice.

This does not mean the whole world as in the totality of mankind. John was showing the Jews he was writing to that salvation was not just to them. It is similar to when Scripture says, "all Judaea went after him." We know that all Judaea did not go after Christ or all the Scribes and Pharisees would have gone after him as well.

It is amazing to me that you will interpret every verse in the Bible based off of a few scriptures, rather than interpret your foundational verses by the whole of scripture.

You are forcing a meaning into that verse that is not there. It is an unatural interpretation, and based off of that logic, any time in the whole Bible where it says the words: "whole world, every, everyone, all." We must reinterpret them to mean differently than what they say, just as you have done.

[b]So let's start with a wonderful verse that is foundational to what you say is true:[/b]

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;[/color][/b]

This cannot mean all, it is similar to when Scripture says, "all Judaea went after him." We know that all Judaea did not go after Christ or all the Scribes and Pharisees would have gone after him as well.

[b]Now don't go saying that this is a ridiculous comparisson, because it is not. It is just as ridiculous as saying that every verse that contradicts what you believe has a different meaning than it's most natural logical one. Do you realize how much of scripture that you have to reinterpret to prove your theological stance?[/b]

So it is not our sins that send us to hell, it is our unbelief that sends us to hell?

What about the people who do not ever hear the gospel of Jesus are they still condemned because of their unbelief?

Yes to the first question, Jesus condemns the cities in Matthew because of their unbelief.

[b][color=CC0000]Matthew 11: 20-24

20Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, [u]because they repented not:[/u]

21Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, [u]they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.[/u]

22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

23And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, [u]it would have remained until this day.[/u]

24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable [u]for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.[/u][/color][/b]

He condems them for their unbelief, He could not do that righteously if they had no option to believe without Him doing it sovereignly. And He is talking about condemnation to hell, notice He speaks about the day of judgement.
--------------------------------------------------

To the second question, have you ever read Romans 1 and 2? It says they are without excuse because nature bears witness to the existence of God, and they will be condemned by their consciences for not searching for this God.

If you will dilligently research this, it might amaze you, have you ever heard a testimony of how a muslim man had a dream, and in the dream, Christ appeared to him and preached the gospel to him? It is quite a common testimony, their are many Christians right now who pray daily that God will send dreams to these people that are out of reach. It happens in China all the time, there is a lady that preaches in China and then tells the people she preached to that the Lord will come to them and prove that He is real, and guess what happens, the next day, many return having seen a vision or having a dream from the Lord.

To assume that what I say somehow excuses them, it does not. They are even more to blame, because they do not believe the truth.

Jay Wrote:

Ben, I say this in all due respect to you. I love you as a brother in Christ and I have no doubt that you love and honor God.

But you spent an entire post telling me why you don't agree with the answer to my questions and then in your post you agreed with my answers.

Hey Jay, I'm not gonna quote the whole post, but I will say this: based on what you placed on that post, it would appear that I did indeed answer your questions that way, except for one thing. I stated multiple times very clearly, that God had saved man already. Which cancels out both questions.

The fact that Christ has already atoned for man's sins nullifies both questions completely. You have to reform the questions to fit the truth, seeing as they are both double negatives when dealing with what scripture says the truth is.

Everything I said in that post was with respect to the fact that Christ had already saved all of mankind, and then given them a choice of inheritance based on belief. Heaven or Hell. To leave out that importan aspect of my post causes a misunderstanding by all the readers.

To the second question, have you ever read Romans 1 and 2? It says they are without excuse because nature bears witness to the existence of God, and they will be condemned by their consciences for not searching for this God.

Ben, you did not directly answer my question, but in a way you implied your answer.

You believe that it is possible that a person can die of unbelief without hearing the gospel. You also stated "they will be condemned by their consciences for not searching for this God." Is this fair? Some people hear the gospel many times before they are an adult and some people probably hear the gospel thousands of times, yet some people never hear the gospel once. Is it fair for God to punish these people (never heard the gospel) for their unbelief especially since Jesus has already died for their sins? Doesn't God give the same amount of grace to all men?

Ben,
I do not have an answer right now, except that the word for "all" in Romans 3:23 is not the same as the word for "whole" in 1 John 2:2.

I will respond shortly Lord willing ;-)

Ben, you did not directly answer my question, but in a way you implied your answer.

You believe that it is possible that a person can die of unbelief without hearing the gospel. You also stated "they will be condemned by their consciences for not searching for this God." Is this fair? Some people hear the gospel many times before they are an adult and some people probably hear the gospel thousands of times, yet some people never hear the gospel once. Is it fair for God to punish these people (never heard the gospel) for their unbelief especially since Jesus has already died for their sins? Doesn't God give the same amount of grace to all men?

I apologize, I thought my answer was clear through the implications of Romans.

Yes it is fair, this is the argument that the Jews brought against Paul for preaching the gospel that I am telling you is true. Paul makes his case for the righteousness of God in judgment concerning these people.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 1:18-23

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.[/color][/b]

Ok, now every phrase of every verse here is key in understanding the argument, and it's answer by Paul.

It says that to those who have not heard the gospel, God has shown to them everything they need to know, to believe in God. So that if they do not believe, they are completely without excuse.

If God did not show man these things, then they would have an excuse, they could say, "But the gospel was not preached to me".

Therefore, God implanted all this knowledge into the DNA of a man, so that he is completely without excuse for not believing. And God is completely just in judging him for his unbelief.

You mentioned people who have heard the gospel many times compared to those who have not heard it. Paul's whole argument is that even if they have not heard, they are without excuse.

Hope this clears up my answer.

Ben, I am really perplexed by this belief that every single person has their sins atoned for. Is this the teaching of historic Christianity?

Would you consider the person who is in hell--whose sins have been atoned for by Jesus Christ--blessed?

Romans 4:6-8, "...David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."

The one to whom the Lord will not count his sin is the one who comes to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The one to whom the Lord will count his sin is the one who is lost. The lost person in hell does have his sins counted against him.

Romans 6:6-7 says, "We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin." This also means that the one who does not have his old self crucified with Christ has not been set free from sin.

Galatians 3:22, "But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." Those who do not believe are imprisoned under sin. Their sin remains.

Colossians 1:13-14, "He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." We have forgiveness of sins when we are delivered from the dominion of darkness to the kingdom of Jesus. Not prior.

Also,
Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Death comes because of sin, if sin has been atoned for then there would be no death, but life.

...continued from previous post:

If all men's sins are atoned for and are not held against them, then what do you make of these verses:
Hebrews 10:26-27
26"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries."

No more sacrifice for sins? That means they would still be in their sins and their sins would not be atoned for?

John 8
21So he said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come." 22So the Jews said, "Will he kill himself, since he says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?" 23He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."

Jesus tells these Jews that they would die in their sins because they are 'from below'. How could Jesus say this if He was about to die to take all their sins away?

Hope this clears up my answer.

I agree that they are without excuse, but I don't see how you believe that and also believe that their sins are not counted against them.

Ben, I am really perplexed by this belief that every single person has their sins atoned for. Is this the teaching of historic Christianity?

Yes, but allow me to give a modern example to explain how the whole process works, because so far their seems to be some confusion on how it all works.

[b]Example[/b]

Here is the scenario, let's use me for the example.

In the example, the judge is God.
I represent a sinner.
The penalty for my sin is God's judgment.
The man that comes into the court room is Christ.

Ok, here goes:

I am a murderer, and we are in present day world, only we will say that the only penalty for murder is death.

Ok, I am in court, and the court holds me guilty of murder, and as such, I am doomed to die. However, A man walks into the court room, and says to me, I will die in your place, so that you can go free. All you have to do is accept(believe in) me. He then dies in my place, and the judge asks me, do you accept this(believe)?

[b]At that point I have the option to say yes, I believe and go free.

Or I can say no, I will pay the penalty for my sin even though it has already been done.[/b]

I realize this example is imperfect as any is, but the main point is the end that is in bold. I hope that part clears up how it works. By a man not believing, he is in essence saying, "No God, I will pay the penalty for my sins".

Would you consider the person who is in hell--whose sins have been atoned for by Jesus Christ--blessed?

Not the one who is in hell, because he has refused the atonement, and chosen hell. While he was still on earth, he was surely blessed, because his sins were atoned for. Had he only believed, then his blessing would have been fruitful.

Now I must clarify, just because sin is atoned for, that does not mean that the unbelievers are free from darkness. It only means that they can be free from darkness, by believing in Jesus Christ.

Ben, thanks for the example but I don't understand how you hold to this view.

Another thought on this:

Concerning those who never hear the gospel. You state that they are will go to hell because of their unbelief. You said:

To the second question, have you ever read Romans 1 and 2? It says they are without excuse because nature bears witness to the existence of God, and they will be condemned by their consciences for not searching for this God.

Does God ensure that those who are searching for Him do not die before they hear the gospel and have a chance to choose?

Ok, I am in court, and the court holds me guilty of murder, and as such, I am doomed to die. However, A man walks into the court room, and says to me, I will die in your place, so that you can go free. All you have to do is accept(believe in) me. He then dies in my place, and the judge asks me, do you accept this(believe)?

At that point I have the option to say yes, I believe and go free.

Or I can say no, I will pay the penalty for my sin even though it has already been done.

That seems more like Irresistible Grace to me! :-)

No more sacrifice for sins? That means they would still be in their sins and their sins would not be atoned for?

I answered this with the court room scenario following your post before this one. So I will move on to your next question below.

[b][color=CC0000]John 8:21-24

21So he said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come."

22So the Jews said, "Will he kill himself, since he says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?"

23He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

24[u]I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.[/u]"[/color][/b]

Jesus tells these Jews that they would die in their sins because they are 'from below'. How could Jesus say this if He was about to die to take all their sins away?

I am sorry, but in this post, you missed a key phrase in the verses above. He tells them, that if they do not believe, they will die in their sins.

Why does He continue to charge everyone He talks to with the issue of believing? If He is going to save them all anyways, how can he hold them guilty of not believing?

He told them that if they chose to believe in Him, then they would not die in their sins. Amazingly, it is again about a choice to believe.

Here is the scenario, let's use me for the example.

In the example, the judge is God.
I represent a sinner.
The penalty for my sin is God's judgment.
The man that comes into the court room is Christ.

Hey Ben,
I used to use this example alot as well, and it works to a point, but I think I may be able to point out a difference in the two views that is overlooked while at the same time using you illustration.

Ok, here goes.
In your scenario, you have God as the Judge, and yourself as the sinner doomed to die.
Here is the crux of what Jay and I are getting at(at least one point:-D)
Imagine instead if you the criminal were already dead and unable to even say anything about your sentence, but then the Judge, and the Advocate gave you life, and took away your penalty. How endebted would you be then?!

The first issue we must realize that man is absolutely incapable of doing anything towards his salvation.

Let me post five phrases and see if you agree with them or not.
1)Man is unable to contribute even the slightest thing to his salvation
2)God's calling has nothing to do with us
3)All that Christ died for will be saved
4)God's calling to repentance is effectual
5)Those in Christ will be saved

I just wanted to add that this has been a wonderful discussion thus far, and I am blessed by both of you guys(ben and jay)

May God's countenance be upon both of you today.
Blessings

Ben,

I noticed this verse "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins." and it still doesn't answer my objection.

You hold the position that every single person has had their sins forgiven and all that is required is belief.

However, Jesus says in John 8 that if you do not believe then you are still in your sins.

"Still in your sins" was the phrase. That tells us that the sins were never taken away to begin with. Those who do not believe have never had their sins forgiven...yet you believe they have. This is what I am confused about concerning your position.

I just wanted to add that this has been a wonderful discussion thus far, and I am blessed by both of you guys(ben and jay)

Thanks.

Ben it is amazing that two Christians can disagree on so much and still respect one another. God Bless you brother.

roaringlamb Wrote:

Hey Ben,
I used to use this example alot as well, and it works to a point, but I think I may be able to point out a difference in the two views that is overlooked while at the same time using you illustration.

Ok, here goes.
In your scenario, you have God as the Judge, and yourself as the sinner doomed to die.
Here is the crux of what Jay and I are getting at(at least one point)
Imagine instead if you the criminal were already dead and unable to even say anything about your sentence, but then the Judge, and the Advocate gave you life, and took away your penalty. How endebted would you be then?!

The first issue we must realize that man is absolutely incapable of doing anything towards his salvation.

Let me post five phrases and see if you agree with them or not.
1)Man is unable to contribute even the slightest thing to his salvation
2)God's calling has nothing to do with us
3)All that Christ died for will be saved
4)God's calling to repentance is effectual
5)Those in Christ will be saved

Ok, I will quote one at a time, and then whether I agree or disagree, and the reason why.

1)Man is unable to contribute even the slightest thing to his salvation

By salvation do you mean atonement for sins, or eternal life?

I will answer it both ways to save us extra posts.

Disagree, man cannot contribute one thing to his atonement, for him to receive eternal life, the man must believe, God does not believe for him. Therefore, man does contribute something to his salvation if you are reffering to eternal life.

Agree, Christ atoned for all men's sins, and man had no say in whether Christ would do that.

2)God's calling has nothing to do with us

Um...I don't understand what you mean exactly? If you are referring to the internal/external calling issue, I don't find that in scripture. I do find that the Lord calls everyone by speaking to them through men, through himself. Him speaking to us either audibly or inaudibly.

So I guess I disagree if I am understanding you. I believe God's calling has everything to do with everyone, and those who accept his calling will receive eternal life, and walk out that calling. Those who do not, will be damned to hell.

3)All that Christ died for will be saved

Again, I must have definition of terms, when you say saved, is it eternal life, or atonement? I will answer first for eternal life, then second for atonement.

Disagree, only those who believe in Christ will be saved.(eternal life)

Agree, everyone Christ died for was most certainly atoned for.(atonement)

4)God's calling to repentance is effectual

What do you mean by effectual?

I absolutely believe that everything God does is effective, but man can still resist God no matter what. God can kill man, but man will harden his heart as much as he wants to. And in cases where God has hardened the heart of an individual, He only hardens them after they have refused Him or hardened their own heart before Him. (i.e. Pharaoh hardened his own heart I think it was twice before the Lord hardened his heart.)

5)Those in Christ will be saved

Ok, now I really am trying my best. I assume that by "those in Christ" you mean "those who have believed"?

If that is the case, I agree. If its not, I don't know what you mean.

Thought i'd toss in my penny,

The scripture does indeed tell us that the sins of the whole world were places on Christ when he was crucified.

[color=000099]1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world [/color]

[color=003399]John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. [/color]

This certainly seems to back up Ben's position that [i]all[/i] sin has been atoned for. [i]Salvation[/i] on the other hand requires faith.

For whatever that's worth,

humbly yours,

Doug

It will always be my contention that this discussion is over two sides of the same coin. The two sides seem contadictory, creating a paradox in our mind we wish to be resolved. The problem is that we can only see one side of the coin at a time. As David Helfgott would say, "It's a mystery, it's a mystery."

I find this all amusing, mostly because this has been discussed with such character on both sides. When it becomes a fight, that's when my heart starts to grieve.

Blessings to all,

Doug

Jay Wrote:

Ben,

I noticed this verse "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins." and it still doesn't answer my objection.

You hold the position that every single person has had their sins forgiven and all that is required is belief.

However, Jesus says in John 8 that if you do not believe then you are still in your sins.

"Still in your sins" was the phrase. That tells us that the sins were never taken away to begin with. Those who do not believe have never had their sins forgiven...yet you believe they have. This is what I am confused about concerning your position.

Ok, I will attempt to establish an understandable answer to your objection.

--------------------------------------------------
Let me start with this, in salvation, there are multiple things that have to take place before a man can receive eternal life.

God has to atone for a man's sin, because man is incapable of producing an atonement for his own sin that is perfect.

God did that.

God has to offer forgiveness to man, because man cannot achieve it by himself.

God does that.

The condition for man's forgiveness is that he believe in Jesus Christ.

Man must do that.

God must grant to the man eternal life for his belief.

God does that.
--------------------------------------------------

Can a man be atoned for, and still held responsible for what he did.

I submit to you this parable:

[b][color=CC0000]Matthew 18:23-35

23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, [u]which would take account of his servants.[/u]

24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, [u]which owed him ten thousand talents.[/u]

25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, [u]his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.[/u]

26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, [u]O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:[/u]

33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34[u]And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.[/u]

35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/color][/b]

I believe that this parable does a better job than I do in explaining how it all works. God forgave the man the debt, but because the man was disobedient, and wicked, the Lord held him responsible for the debt.

Is Christ the advocate for every single person in the world?

1 John 2
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

These verses say Jesus is our advocate and our propitiation. Is he the advocate for every single person in the world?

In John 17 Jesus said
6"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."

I would like to ask those who are Arminian in their Theology a question. This is strictly to gauge where people are in their understanding of the Arminian background.

Does it not concern any of you that when Armininism in its first form of Pelagianism came forth, it was silenced by Augustine? When it came before the Council of Orange under the name of Semi-Pelagianism it was rendered unbiblical?
Or when it resurfaced under the ideas of Erasmus, it was put down by Luther(The Bondage of The Will), and when it came before the Council of Dordt under the name of Arminianism proper, after six months of debate and searching of the Scriptures, it was found "heretical".

It is important to understand where we have been, and the history of why we believe these things. I'm sure we all believe in the Trinity, but do you know that there were huge debates of the existance of the Trinity? These are not ideas that sprang up suddenly and came to be doctrine, but rather men and women have risked their lives to believe these things.

Now, I do not herald John Calvin or hold him anywhere near Jesus Christ nor would he seek such a thing. Calvinism was thus named long after he was gone from this world, and the Five points were a response to the Five Points of the Arminians(Remonstrants). I do not agree with all Calvin did or believed, but that does not mean I must shun everything he taught. I am of the seed of Abraham, but does that mean I approve and condone his lying about his wife?(No ;-))

Also may I reccomend the wonderful book "A Display Of Arminianism" by John Owen, it is very eye opening as it was written in 1644 when these doctrines were still fresh in everyones' minds

Is Christ the advocate for every single person in the world?

Advocate? No. Propitiation? Yes

The first part of the verse is clearly written to his audience-believers, yet the sins of the whole world were placed upon the Lamb of God. God the Father did not pick and choose whose sin to place on His Son. For God so loved [i]the world[/i]...

Now how did I get drawn into this debate?

In Him,

Doug

roaringlamb wrote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If God has not power to rule the Earth, then why trust Him with your health, your finances? Either He is sovereign, or He is not, we cannot play games with words, and say, "well yes He is sovereign, but not whne it comes to salvation."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Job 34:

10 “Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
11 For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way.
12 Surely God will never do wickedly,
Nor will the Almighty pervert justice.
13 Who gave Him charge over the earth?
Or who appointed Him over the whole world?
14 If He should set His heart on it,
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.
16 “If you have understanding, hear this;
Listen to the sound of my words:
17 Should one who hates justice govern?
Will you condemn Him who is most just?
18 Is it fitting to say to a king, “You are worthless,’
And to nobles, ‘You are wicked’?
19 Yet He is not partial to princes,
Nor does He regard the rich more than the poor;
For they are all the work of His hands.
20 In a moment they die, in the middle of the night;
The people are shaken and pass away;
The mighty are taken away without a hand.
21 “For His eyes are on the ways of man,
And He sees all his steps.
22 There is no darkness nor shadow of death
Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
23 For He need not further consider a man,
That he should go before God in judgment.
24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
25 Therefore He knows their works;
He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
26 He strikes them as wicked men
In the open sight of others,
27 Because they turned back from Him,
And would not consider any of His ways,

God is the ruler no doubt. Yet what does Scripture say of man...

Again...11 For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way.
and also...

24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
25 Therefore He knows their works;
He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
26 He strikes them as wicked men
In the open sight of others,
27 Because they turned back from Him,
And would not consider any of His ways,

These men were chosen by God to rule yet what does Scripture say of most men?

"Because they turned back from Him, and would not consider any of His ways"

How does this precept work with God's rule?

In Christ
jeff

I believe that this parable does a better job than I do in explaining how it all works. God forgave the man the debt, but because the man was disobedient, and wicked, the Lord held him responsible for the debt.

Ben, Jesus told that parable to remind his followers that we must forgive people because God has forgiven us. We are to extend forgiveness for the minor offenses against us because we have been forgiven for the major offenses against God.

Matthew 18:35, "So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

To apply this parable to something that the Lord did not intend is very dangerous.

Ben, I am struggling with how you can believe that every single person's sins are already forgiven and not held against them. What do you say about these verses that tell us that a person's sins are forgiven at salvation?

Acts 2:38
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Peter says that the remission of sin is after repentence.

Acts 10:43
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
Only the person who believes will receive the remission of sins.

Acts 26:17-18
"Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
These verses say that the Gentiles may receive forgiveness of sins if they have faith.

Ephesians 1:6-7
"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
Those who have redemption through Jesus' blood have received forgiveness of sins. These two are linked and you cannot have one without the other.

These verses say Jesus is our advocate and our propitiation. Is he the advocate for every single person in the world?

No, I don't believe He is. But that is a wrong implication of the verse. We are told that He is everyone's mediator. And John was writing that specific passage to believers, not unbelievers. For the believer, He is both advocate and propitiation. Again for the sinner, He is mediator and atonement.

Ben, Jesus told that parable to remind his followers that we must forgive people because God has forgiven us. We are to extend forgiveness for the minor offenses against us because we have been forgiven for the major offenses against God.

Alright Jay, I will give you this one, because its probably too debatable a point. However, may I point out the very first verse.

[b][color=CC0000]Matthew 18:23

23[u]Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king[/u], which would take account of his servants.[/color][/b]

It appears that Jesus was not just saying forgive one another and making up a nice story to demonstrate that. Obviously that was His main point, but there are several understandings of the kingdom of God that He points out throughout the parable that have deeper insight.

Might I also point out, that after the man was forgiven, he did wickedly, and so the judgment came back upon him. Somewhat interesting if you ask me. Not merely to be dismissed as simply a forgiveness passage. It holds more weight than that.

Ben, I am struggling with how you can believe that every single person's sins are already forgiven and not held against them. What do you say about these verses that tell us that a person's sins are forgiven at salvation?

I am going to answer your question with a couple of questions.

--------------------------------------------------
When were your sins atoned for?

Was it at the foundation of the world?

Was it at the cross?

Was it at the time of repentance?
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
When were your sins forgiven?

Was it at the foundation of the world?

Was it at the cross?

Was it at the time of repentance?
--------------------------------------------------

Hey roaringlamb:

In response to your post, I want to point out that the Arminians were so focused on man, that they left God completely out of the picture. So much so that it got to the point that the Arminian churches were basically just social clubs.

Does this concern me?

Yes it does, I see all the time, men who place more importance upon themselves, and what they do, than on God and what God does.

But it also concerns me equally when I see men placing so much emphasis on God's part, that they lose sight of the fact that man has a part to play as well.

I believe that if a man holds proper his devotion to the Lord, he will never lose sight of the sovereignty of God. But I believe that both sides err on focusing too much on either man or God.

You might say that that is ridiculous, "it is impossible to focus too much on God's sovereignty". But I say to you, if your focus on God's sovereignty causes you to disregard man's part to play, then it is error.

Ben quote "Answer me this: Is it God's will for man to sin?"

Did Peter deny Christ,or did he deny Christ because Christ said/saw he would??

If God knows all and saw/said Peter would deny him,surly Peter was programmed to deny him...How could Peter not do what God had seen/said he would do?
(same for Judas)

andy

Brother Ben wrote:

You might say that that is ridiculous, "it is impossible to focus too much on God's sovereignty". But I say to you, if your focus on God's sovereignty causes you to disregard man's part to play, then it is error.

God's sovereignty is often preached by those who scoff at the thought that God still speaks to man. Scripture is clearly the foundation on this point. Yet most are not willing to submit to what the Holy Spirit has said on this matter.

Proverbs 2:

1 My son, if you receive my words,
\tAnd treasure my commands within you,
2 \tSo that you incline your ear to wisdom,
\tAnd apply your heart to understanding;
3 \tYes, if you cry out for discernment,
\tAnd lift up your voice for understanding,
4 \tIf you seek her as silver,
\tAnd search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 \tThen you will understand the fear of the LORD,
\tAnd find the knowledge of God.
6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;
\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,
\tAnd preserves the way of His saints.
9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,
\tEquity and every good path.
10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,
\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 \tDiscretion will preserve you;
\tUnderstanding will keep you,
12 \tTo deliver you from the way of evil,
\tFrom the man who speaks perverse things,
13 \tFrom those who leave the paths of uprightness
\tTo walk in the ways of darkness;

Many will hold fast to the traditions of men because they fear men more than God.

We must hold to the whole counsel of God's word. As soon as one throws away sections of Scripture one is throwing away the promise that God speaks to those in Proverbs 2.

3 \tYes, if you cry out for discernment,
\tAnd lift up your voice for understanding,
4 \tIf you seek her as silver,
\tAnd search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 \tThen you will understand the fear of the LORD,
\tAnd find the knowledge of God.

The whole counsel of God, not the ideas of men.

In Christ
Jeff

Ben quote "Answer me this: Is it God's will for man to sin?"

Did Peter deny Christ,or did he deny Christ because Christ said/saw he would??

If God knows all and saw/said Peter would deny him,surly Peter was programmed to deny him...How could Peter not do what God had seen/said he would do?
(same for Judas)

andy

Hey Andy, no, it is not God's will for man to sin. He hates sin, abhors sin, detests it, and always judges it.

Peter denied Christ. Jesus did not command him to, but He saw that he would. God foreseeing something does not mean He causes it to be so. To mistake foreknowledge with forordination, is a grave error that causes mass reinterpretation of the scriptures.

God has perfect knowledge, which means past, present, and future. He knows every word that will be uttered for all of eternity. This does not mean that He causes every one of those words to be uttered.

Jesus said of Judas that it would have been better for him if he had not been born. If Judas was perfectly under the control and power of God, two major questions arise.

Did God cause Judas to betray Christ?

Did God cause Adam to Sin?

We know the answer to these are no. Even a Calvinist will say no to those questions. God does not cause people to sin.

Hi this is where i have a problem with it all!!

We all agree if God forsaw it,it will happen..I really struggle with how anyone thinks man can not do what God as seen!! Were kind of hardwired to do what God as seen..Yes we may see it as free will but its only partial really,were just following out what God as seen,,unless we can change Gods mind?

I spoke to a friend about this,it created a thread..He argues that God doesn't see what we did at a different time from seeing what we've done..He said God is Iam so out side of time, and sees everything at once i.e in heaven its always now..
Its very simple Ben,if God had picked you as Judas you would of betrayed him,how could you not??

aj

Strawrifle, I have written a document on Foreknowledge that I would like for you to read. It is long, but I would like to get your opinion on it.

The Foreknowledge of God

I doubt most people familiar with Christianity would ever make the following statement: ‘God doesn’t know I exist.’ I would guess that almost anyone who has ever read the Bible, heard a sermon, or had a friend who is a Christian knows that God is supernatural and is aware of all things and all people. The concept of an all-knowing deity is very well-known and almost universally accepted.

However in Matthew 7:22-23, Jesus says the following: “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Jesus says a very remarkable phrase: ‘I never knew you.’ What does He mean by this phrase? Is Jesus saying that He has no knowledge of this person’s existence?
An answer of ‘Yes’ states the belief that it is possible for someone to be born, live, and die without God ever being knowledgeable of those events and that person. This is proven false because Scripture affirms that God knows everyone—all who have ever lived, all who are now living, and all who will ever live. Acts 17:25-26 tells us that God Himself “gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place.” Therefore, the answer must be ‘No.’ Scripture affirms that God has knowledge of every person’s existence.

So, why does Jesus make the statement, ‘I never knew you’ if He is not referring to the knowledge of a person’s existence? What other reason is available? For the answer to this we must go to Romans 8:28-30:
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

The word “Foreknew” is translated here from the Greek word Proginosko. This word derives its meaning from the words Pro and Ginosko. Pro meaning “before” and Ginosko meaning “to know”. Ginosko is the same word Jesus used in Matthew 7:23. To foreknow basically means “to have knowledge beforehand.”

Proginosko in Romans 8:29 refers to knowledge that God possessed before the world began. What was this knowledge? Romans 8:29-30 tell us that it is the knowledge of those individuals who would receive salvation. But Proginosko can also mean Foreordain. In the KJV 1 Peter 1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,”

Before we continue with a deeper study of foreknowledge, I will give a short summary of Romans 8:29-30.
- Every person who is foreknown by God is also predestined.
- Every person who is predestined is also called.
- Every person who is called is also justified.
- Every person who is justified is also glorified.

How does Romans 8:29-30 correlate with Matthew 7:22-23? Specifically, Jesus’ statement, “I never knew you”? We must conclude the following:
- The person addressed was never known (As Jesus states).
- If the person was never known then he was never predestined.
- Since the person was never predestined, he was never called.
- Since the person was never called, he was never justified.
- Since the person was never justified, he was never glorified.

Who are these foreknown people? Jesus said in John 6:37, “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” God gave certain people to Jesus and these people come to Him. Jesus also says in John 17:6, “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.”

God foresees all things and all people, this is universally accepted among orthodox Christians. There is nothing that escapes His sight or knowledge. He is the eternal God who sees past, present and future in the present sense. He knows the end from the beginning. However, as we have seen, God has a special connection to only certain people. This connection is often spoken of as a relationship.

What is the basis of this relationship? Romans 8:29 tells us that those in this special connection/relationship are foreknown by God. God knew these people and choose to have a special connection/relationship with them before they were ever born and before the world even began. It is the foreknown who receive salvation and they are to God “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.” 1 Peter 2:9-10)

The million dollar question is: How does one become relationally foreknown since even though all are foreknown not all people are foreknown in this manner? This is the question that causes disagreement among Christians. One group says that God foresees whether or not a person will respond in faith to the gospel call and then relationally foreknows that person. Another group says that God foresees all people in their natural sinful state—due to the fall of Adam—and He chooses of His own will and mercy to relationally foreknow some and leave the rest in their natural sinful state. It is this view that maintains that the foreseen faith of a person is the result of God’s choice not the cause of God’s choice.

So which groups is correct and which group is incorrect? Let us look at both position in more detail. I will refer to the first position as ‘Relationally Foreknown because of foreseen Faith’ and the second position as ‘Relationally Foreknown because of God’s choice’.

1) Relationally Foreknown because of foreseen Faith
In this view God in His Omnipresence and Omniscience looked throughout time to see who will respond in Faith to the Gospel message. For example, before the world began, God saw that in 1999 John Doe would come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. God—seeing this Faith in John—relationally foreknew John and then predestined him to be adopted in Christ. God chose John to be relationally known because John first chose God. Then in 1999, God calls John to salvation, then justifies him and glorifies him.

But is this view biblical? This view of relational foreknowledge says that God chose us because we chose Him? But what does Scripture say?
Scripture makes it clear that our salvation is not based upon our works as Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” The clear meaning of Ephesians 2:8-9 is that man does nothing and can do nothing to earn salvation, but we receive this salvation through faith. God’s starts the process through His grace, we respond in faith and the end result is salvation that is a gift. Man’s faith is not a work but is a response to the grace of God. Salvation is applied only to those who respond in faith to Jesus. These verses are speaking to Christians who have received grace and who have responded in faith. These verses do not prove or deny that Christians are ‘Relationally Foreknown because of foreseen Faith’ but merely describes salvation.
Titus 3:4-5 says, “But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy,” These verses tell us that God saved us according to His own mercy. These verses appear to lend more credence to the ‘Relationally Foreknown because of God’s choice’ view.
Romans 3:20-25 says concerning Abraham, “No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.” These verses tell us our faith is counted to us as righteousness. Abraham had faith that God was able to do as He had promised. These verses appear to lend more credence to the ‘Relationally Foreknown because of foreseen Faith’ view.

What does the ‘Relationally Foreknown because of foreseen Faith’ view say about the nature and character of God? God has left the decision of heaven (Faith) or hell (unbelief) in the hands of man. Since God “…desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”. (1 Timothy 2:4), yet not every single person does not become saved; God either does not have the power to save all men or the desire to save all men.
I know of no one who holds the ‘Relationally Foreknown because of foreseen Faith’ view that says God has the power to save every person but does not have the desire to save every person so we will continue past that to the next option. If God has the desire to save every person but does not have the power then it must be He has chosen to allow man’s free will to be the deciding factor. This however presents a problem. First, if God chose to allow man’s free will to be the deciding factor, then God must have had the ability to save all men but gave up that ability. God has limited Himself and chosen to create a law that He cannot violate. But if God truly desires every single person to be saved then why did He choose to limit His ability to save every person? This severely questions God’s desire to save every single person.

If a person believes that God has chosen to limit Himself and to let salvation be decided by man’s free will then they believe—even if they might not publicly say—that God does not have the power to save even though He has the desire to save.

2) Foreknowledge based upon God’s choice
In this view God in His Omnipotence chooses for Himself certain people out of the world to be His treasured people. God makes this choice before anyone is born and this choice is not based upon what anyone has done or ever will do whether good or bad. He makes this choice because He is God and He has the authority to do so. He is Just in His choice because He is God. What right does the clay have to judge the Potter? The Potter has power over the clay to do as He wishes. God foreknows these people and predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies them.

Many verses in scripture support the view that it is God who chooses.
For example, in the Old Covenant God made a covenant with Abraham. Why did God chose Abraham out of the entire world to enter into a covenant with? God did not do this because of anything Abraham had done. Abraham did not earn this attention from God. God in His own mercy and will Made a covenant with Abraham.
Genesis 12:1-3, “The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

The children of Abraham began to increase and God kept His covenant with Abraham. God made the children of Israel His special people not because they had earned the right, but because of His will.
Deuteronomy 7:6, “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.”
Deuteronomy 14:2, “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.”

The Lord chose the nation of Israel to be His treasured possession. But then something happened, God in His mercy sent His son Jesus who was the offspring (Seed) of Abraham who was prophesied. Galatians 3:16 says, “Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, ‘And to offsprings,’ referring to many, but referring to one, ‘And to your offspring,’ who is Christ.” Jesus then choose men to be His Disciples. He said to them in John 15:16, “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.”, After Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection He referred to Paul as a “chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15). God then chose people—not from just Israel—but from the entire world to be His chosen people. This is the New Covenant that God confirmed.
1 Peter 2:9-10 says that Christians “…are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.”
Colossians 3:11-13, “Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.”
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5, “For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.”
Ephesians 1:3-6, 11, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved…In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,”.

Ephesians 1:11 is a good verse with which to end. It states that Christians have been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will. It does not say that He works all things according to man’s will. Certainly man’s will plays a part in salvation, but it is not the reason God’s relationally foreknows people.

In conclusion, the foreknowledge of God must be based on scripture. Scripture says that God foreknows people based upon the counsel of His will. Salvation is nothing that can be earned or merited. It is something that God does in His grace and mercy. Man responds to the grace of God in Faith, but as the great Arminian preacher Adrian Rogers once said, “Faith is you saying what God has already said.” Thus our response of Faith is the confession of what God has already done in our lives.

Jay
these are people ur talking about..it could be people i love who God decided to play a game of dibs with, and they got hell? what God is that?

secondly i think it stinks in the area of sin,it doesn't curb sin it encourages it..if a man who's not elected murders someone,he as no reason not to murder again, after all hes not elected his punishment stays the same..it basically says to a sinful world ur not saved ur never be saved so knock yourself out.

lastly if true Calvinist should be the most humble of Christians,but i find them to be the most elistist

aj

Who knows who is elected or not? I have no idea so I treat everyone as if they can be saved...no matter who they are or what they have done.

I pray that I do not come across as elitist.

Brother Ben wrote:

Peter denied Christ. Jesus did not command him to, but He saw that he would. God foreseeing something does not mean He causes it to be so. To mistake foreknowledge with forordination, is a grave error that causes mass reinterpretation of the scriptures.

Just to add to this, Jesus said that Satan has requested of God that he be allowed to sift Peter as wheat.

And then Jesus prayed for Peter's faith.

What dynamic is introduced here?

In Christ
Jeff

Hi this is where i have a problem with it all!!

We all agree if God forsaw it,it will happen..I really struggle with how anyone thinks man can not do what God as seen!! Were kind of hardwired to do what God as seen..Yes we may see it as free will but its only partial really,were just following out what God as seen,,unless we can change Gods mind?

I spoke to a friend about this,it created a thread..He argues that God doesn't see what we did at a different time from seeing what we've done..He said God is Iam so out side of time, and sees everything at once i.e in heaven its always now..

Its very simple Ben,if God had picked you as Judas you would of betrayed him,how could you not??

This is where the mistake lies, you are placing the knowledge of God, the Will of God, and the deeds of man as one and the same thing.

If God has said that a certain person will do something, you can be assured they will do it. But not because God ordained it.

Perfect knowledge works like this.

Say you were going to go to the grocery store, and you were going to by 50 dollars worth of groceries. If I knew beforehand that you were going to do exactly that, does that mean that I made you do it? Did I somehow cause you to go buy the groceries?

You might say to me, ah but you are not God. And I will say to you, why is it any different with God? Why is God not capable of simply having knowledge of something? Why is it that simply because He knows something, it means He is responsible?

Is God responsible for sin? There are many prophecies given throughout the scriptures of people who would sin, was God directing their sin? Or did He simply have perfect knowledge of it?

[b]See, you believe that God chose Judas to betray Jesus. But I say to you, God saw Judas wicked heart, knew he would betray our Lord, and allowed it to be so.[/b]

There is a major difference between the two.

rookie Wrote:

Just to add to this, Jesus said that Satan has requested of God that he be allowed to sift Peter as wheat.

And then Jesus prayed for Peter's faith.

What dynamic is introduced here?

Good point Jeff, very good point.

See, you believe that God chose Judas to betray Jesus. But I say to you, God saw Judas wicked heart, knew he would betray our Lord, and allowed it to be so.

sounds a bit like the egg and the chicken to me..

Why is God not capable of simply having knowledge of something? Why is it that simply because He knows something, it means He is responsible?

Its different because God doesn't change His mind..So for it to be free will i would need the ability to change Gods mind..

Who knows who is elected or not?

Does one have the seal of the Spirit. Does the Holy Spirit strive with your spirit convicting you of sin in your life? Do you see the righteousness of the Lord being taught to you by the Holy Spirit. Is the Lord using you to battle Satan?

Does this world consider you an enemy?

Does your spirit cry out to the Lord when He chasens you?

Does your heart meditate on the word of God?

Does your heart value God more than gold?

Does your heart have first and foremost the hope of what the Lord will teach you today?

These are some of the things which the Holy Scriptures defines as one who abides in the vine.

In Christ
Jeff

I wrote:

Who knows who is elected or not?

rookie, I should have been more precise and said, "Who knows if an unbeliever is elected or not?" We should not presume that a person will or will not come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I agree that your quotes are indications of true belief.

Does one have the seal of the Spirit. Does the Holy Spirit strive with your spirit convicting you of sin in your life? Do you see the righteousness of the Lord being taught to you by the Holy Spirit. Is the Lord using you to battle Satan?

Does this world consider you an enemy?

Does your spirit cry out to the Lord when He chasens you?

Does your heart meditate on the word of God?

Does your heart value God more than gold?

Does your heart have first and foremost the hope of what the Lord will teach you today?

These are some of the things which the Holy Scriptures defines as one who abides in the vine.

strawrifle Wrote:

sounds a bit like the egg and the chicken to me..

I believe that if you search the scriptures, and examine them in context of chapter, and book, it will become far more clear. Here is my question again, [b]Jesus said it would have been better for Judas to never have been born. Is that the statement of a just God who made Judas betray Christ?[/b]

Its different because God doesn't change His mind..So for it to be free will i would need the ability to change Gods mind..

You are still assuming that because God has knowledge of something, that means He caused it. Let me give you a good example to help explain what I mean.

[b][color=CC0000]Matthew 12:24-26

24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25[u]And Jesus knew their thoughts,[/u] and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
[/color][/b]

Now for the point, did Jesus make them think that? Does He cause wrong behaviour, and evil to be done? Or are men wicked, and He allows them, because He has granted free will.

As for God changing His mind, there are many instances where God would pronounce a judgment upon an individual, and the individual would repent, and cry for mercy. And God would have compassion on them, and withold the judgment completely, or at least postpone it a number of generations.

Brother Ben wrote:

Now for the point, did Jesus make them think that? Does He cause wrong behaviour, and evil to be done? Or are men wicked, and He allows them, because He has granted free will.

From the very beginning the epic battle was set before man...

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Here God establishes this covenant with Satan...that there would be emnity between the seed of Satan and the Seed of the woman.

Here is a section of Scripture to illustrate this covenant...

John 8:

37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have *seen with your father."
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father."
Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father."

So Jesus points out that there exists two types of children...and that these children do their father's will.

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

In the above section of Scripture, what does Jesus point out as the source that determines whose children we become?

In Christ
Jeff

To Jay i was thinking about what you said,forgive me if i misunderstood ur stances..

You argue that some people are destined to be saved and others not right? Also you agree God is all knowing,and knows who goes to hell and who doesn't..
Why then does the Bible say hell wasn't made for man,if Hes all knowing and does have an elect that would make that quote ridiculous..

aj

Why then does the Bible say hell wasn't made for man,if Hes all knowing and does have an elect that would make that quote ridiculous..

Matthew 25:41
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The Bible does not say hell wasn't made for man. We know sadly that many men will end up in that place. The Bible doesn't say that Hell was created only for the devil and his angels, but Jesus does say that it is prepared for them. That word prepared means to 'make ready' and doesn't always mean "created for". For example:

Rev 8:6, "And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." It is wrong to say that the seven angels created themselves to sound.

God relationally foreknows people. He chooses some and passes over others. He created hell for the devil, his angels and for all who do not come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. He is fair and just in doing so.

The pit is spoken of in Job 33:

26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
\tHe shall see His face with joy,
\tFor He restores to man His righteousness.
27 \tThen he looks at men and says,
\t“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
\tAnd it did not profit me.’
28 \tHe will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
\tAnd his life shall see the light.
29 \t“Behold, God works all these things,
\tTwice, in fact, three times with a man,
30 \tTo bring back his soul from the Pit,
\tThat he may be enlightened with the light of life.

Even in Job's time God restored to man His righteousness. God "works all these things, twice, in fact, three times with a man, to bring back his soul from the Pit, that he may be enlightnened with the light of life.

In Christ
jeff

Jesus speaks to those who listen to Satan, what is their problem?

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

Satan speaks and Jesus speaks, the choice then is given to man.

Who do you want to follow?

In Christ
Jeff

rookie Wrote:

From the very beginning the epic battle was set before man...

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Here God establishes this covenant with Satan...that there would be emnity between the seed of Satan and the Seed of the woman.

Here is a section of Scripture to illustrate this covenant...

John 8:

37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have *seen with your father."
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father."
Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father."

So Jesus points out that there exists two types of children...and that these children do their father's will.

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

In the above section of Scripture, what does Jesus point out as the source that determines whose children we become?

[b]I am going to ask you a question Jeff, was Jesus speaking literally, or figuratively in this passage?[/b]

If you say that Jesus was speaking literally, then I would like you to go to the Jewish community, and trace those Jews ancestory back to Abraham so that it will be apparent that Abraham was their Father.

That said, it makes it extremely obvious that Jesus was speaking figuratively, not that He did not mean what He said, He did by all means. But Jesus was not saying that Satan had been, is, and always will be their father. He was making the point that because they wanted to kill Him, it showed that their motives were coming from Satan and not God.

I will make an example here to demonstrate further the validity of this view.

Jesus says to Peter: "Get thee behind me Satan!"

Was Jesus speaking figuratively in the spiritual realm, or was He speaking literally?

Again, if it was literal then Peter is obviously one of Satan's children, or even Satan himself.

We need to be realistic, and balance scripture by scripture.

Jesus was pointing out the motive, and rebuking it. Plain and simple, just as He always had done prior.

Jesus said to those Jews in John 8:
"Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do."

Jesus said to Peter in Luke 22
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail."

Peter was a child of God and Satan wanted him but could not have him. The Jews in John 8 belonged to Satan for they were his children. Big difference.

When Jesus rebuked Peter, he saw Satan's influence and Peter repented. When Jesus rebuked those Jews, He said that they cannot hear Him.

Also, another question is why did Jesus say that those Jews in John 8 are not able to listen to His word? I thought all men had the ability to choose?

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I am thankful rookie that you brought up this scripture. Do those who are of the Seed of Satan have the ability to choose Christ?

EDIT Follow up question: In the context of Romans 8:29-30, Does God relationally foreknow anyone who is of the Seed of Satan?

Brother Ben wrote:

If you say that Jesus was speaking literally, then I would like you to go to the Jewish community, and trace those Jews ancestory back to Abraham so that it will be apparent that Abraham was their Father.

I believe Jesus is speaking literally in both situations.

First, Jesus acknowledges that the men standing before Him are truly the decendants of Abraham...

37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants,

This is a fact because Jesus said it. But in Scripture we find that there exists a difference between the decendants according to the flesh and decendants according to the Spirit.

Galatians 4:

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."* 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Likewise we have Jacob and Esau...Both are decendants of Abraham yet we know that Esau despised his inheritance...

Gen 25:34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised [his] birthright.

Getting back to John 8, Jesus makes this distinction between those who stand before Him and those who have as their father Abraham...

First...

33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, 'You will be made free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

So Jesus points to the fact that whoever is a slave to sin does not abide in the house forever.

Then we have...

39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father."
Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

Do you see how Jesus seperates these two sets of children?

Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, [but] that ye break my covenant:

Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity [shall be] upon him.

Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Not only the men before Him, but in each generation we find that many despised the word of the Lord, many despised knowledge and instruction from the Lord.

Yet, there are those who are just and live by faith. And what is the source from which this faith comes...

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Jesus points to this precept...in John 8.
Jhn 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

This is the point that seperates the seed of Satan and the Seed of the woman...

"If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed...

And He is able to set one free from being a slave to sin if one continues in His word...

Did I answer your question?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Jay asked;

I am thankful rookie that you brought up this scripture. Do those who are of the Seed of Satan have the ability to choose Christ?

Do you believe Adam and Eve had the ability to choose God?

Satan can not predestine anyone to be his seed. I believe Scripture points to the fact that all are given the choice to believe or not believe.

God works this in man twice, three times in order to bring his soul back from the Pit. Those who deny God are turned over by God to follow their own fancies,

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Once God turns one over to their own carnal mind they are left to Satan's lies...

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Jay asked:

EDIT Follow up question: In the context of Romans 8:29-30, Does God relationally foreknow anyone who is of the Seed of Satan?

Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Here is another testimony similar to the one above...

1 Does not wisdom cry out,
\tAnd understanding lift up her voice?
2 \tShe takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
\tBeside the way, where the paths meet.
3 \tShe cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
\tAt the entrance of the doors:
4 \t“To you, O men, I call,
\tAnd my voice is to the sons of men.
5 \tO you simple ones, understand prudence,
\tAnd you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 \tListen, for I will speak of excellent things,
\tAnd from the opening of my lips will come right things;
7 \tFor my mouth will speak truth;
\tWickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 \tAll the words of my mouth are with righteousness;
\tNothing crooked or perverse is in them.
9 \tThey are all plain to him who understands,
\tAnd right to those who find knowledge.
10 \tReceive my instruction, and not silver,
\tAnd knowledge rather than choice gold;
11 \tFor wisdom is better than rubies,
\tAnd all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her.
12 \t“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
\tAnd find out knowledge and discretion.
13 \tThe fear of the LORD is to hate evil;
\tPride and arrogance and the evil way
\tAnd the perverse mouth I hate.
14 \tCounsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
\tI am understanding, I have strength.
15 \tBy me kings reign,
\tAnd rulers decree justice.
16 \tBy me princes rule, and nobles,
\tAll the judges of the earth.
17 \tI love those who love me,
\tAnd those who seek me diligently will find me.

I teach that this is the Holy Spirit that cries out. And in the last verse we hear...

"I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently will find me."

Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,

I believe Scripture teaches that God's Spirit is present everywhere crying out to all men...

In Christ
Jeff

Hey rookie, you did a very good job in your response, it's almost enough to convince me, however I would like to discuss it a little further as I think I may still see a few flaws with the whole design. I will simply start here with this scripture in response to your post. By the way, this is for Jay as well.

[b][color=CC0000]I John 3:4-14

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that [u]he was manifested to take away our sins;[/u] and in him is no sin.

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: [u]he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.[/u]

8[u]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.[/u]

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10[u]In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.[/u]

11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? [u]Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.[/u]

13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.[/color][/b]

Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but after reading what John wrote, it would appear to me that he believed that anyone who did unrighteously was a child of the devil. (that makes Satan their father for clarifications sake.) Now, following a logical train of thought, if Satan is the father of anyone who does unrighteously, then the whole world has satan as their father.

John makes it clear that the way you no that you are a child of God is because you love the brethren, so the opposite statement is obvious. If you do not love the bretheren, then you are a child of the devil. It is his whole concept in writing the passage that there are two types of children, those of satan, and those of God.

Now, you can say to me, well if they become the child of God, then it was because they always were predestined to be such. But if that is the case, then the unrighteousness that they walked in must never have been seen by either man or God, that way they could not be called a child of the devil.

If you notice verse 8,

[b][color=CC0000]I John 3:8

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. [u]For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.[/u][/color][/b]

John makes it perfectly clear that Jesus came to destroy what the devil had created. This would include destroying the kingdom of the devil in the hearts of his children.

I think it is perfectly obvious that John believed that before anyone was a child of God, that they were a child of the devil.

In reference then to the other passage about the Jews, it is obvious that they had satan as their father, and that that is why they wouldn't listen to the truth. But Jesus was not saying that they could not be free. He said they wouldn't listen to Him because they had satan as their father. It was an open rebuke, centered at their heart to bring repentance. Whom the Lord loves, He chastises, or rebukes. His heart was for them, not against them. But they would not.

Jay wrote:

Jesus said to those Jews in John 8:"Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do."

Jesus said to Peter in Luke 22
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail."

Peter was a child of God and Satan wanted him but could not have him. The Jews in John 8 belonged to Satan for they were his children. Big difference.

When Jesus rebuked Peter, he saw Satan's influence and Peter repented. When Jesus rebuked those Jews, He said that they cannot hear Him.

Also, another question is why did Jesus say that those Jews in John 8 are not able to listen to His word? I thought all men had the ability to choose?

I would like to point out that there is no record of Peter repenting, and not only that, but Peter later denies Jesus three times, with foul cursing. It would appear that Peter was obviously a child of the devil, as he did not truly love the bretheren. He was not willing to lay down his life for the bretheren as John said a true disciple would. His works were very unrighteouss. which is the very thing that John says defines a child of the devil. Also, he chops off a persons ear with a sword, not showing the love of God.

It would appear that Peter was obviously a child of the devil, as he did not truly love the bretheren

Peter was a child of the devil? :-o I strongly disagree. Judas was a child of the devil and his works proved it. Peter made mistakes but never fell away.

John 21
15When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." 16He said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." 17He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. 18Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go." 19(This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, "Follow me."

When Peter said, "Lord you know all things, you know I love you." Did Jesus call him a liar and tell him he was a child of the devil?

Absolutely not!

I wrote:

I am thankful rookie that you brought up this scripture. Do those who are of the Seed of Satan have the ability to choose Christ?

You replied

Do you believe Adam and Eve had the ability to choose God?

Yes. Adam and Eve had both the ability to choose God before the Fall. Before the Fall, they had the unique ability to choose to sin and choose to not sin. Once the Fall occurred, they as well as us lose our ability to choose God apart from His grace that enables.

Jay Wrote:

Peter was a child of the devil? I strongly disagree. Judas was a child of the devil and his works proved it. Peter made mistakes but never fell away.

You are missing my entire point here Jay, I am being competely fasicious to make a greater point. I do not believe for a second that Peter was really a child of the devil. But I believe that you are not doing justice to the inerpretation of scripture. You use one logic in one place, another logic in another place. And in the end, there is not a consistency in your interpretation.

In one passage where Jesus tells someone they are children of the devil, it is because they were always the devils. Yet in another passage where he calls someone satan, it is merely because he sees the influence of satan upon them. That is wrong logic. Proper logic stays with what we know to be true about the nature of Jesus.

What I attempted to point out in my post about I John, was that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. As everyone in the earth was walking in unrighteousness save a few, the whole world had satan as their father according to John. This point is indisputable. He makes it very plain that anyone who does not do righteously is the child of the devil.

That means that when he himself was not following Jesus, he himself was walking in unrighteousness, and as such was a child of the devil. In that state, he was not listening to God, was a child of wrath. And deserved hell. For he was unrighteous.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. What are the works of the devil?
They are all unrighteousness. So Jesus came to destroy the unrighteousness that the devil had wrought upon the earth, and in the hearts of men.

These points must be addressed, as they are pivotal in understanding the truth. Arguments of the seed of satan and the like are mere nonsense when it comes down to a crucial understanding of the purpose of Christ coming to the earth.

Notice John does not say that Jesus came to destroy some of the works of the devil. It says He came to destroy the works of the devil. That means all unrighteousness. Jesus came to destroy all unrighteousness, and as such was His purpose, if there was any unrighteousness in a man's heart, it was His purpose to destroy it. Every man, every time, no exception.

This again must be addressed, it is not a disputable point. Either Christ came to destroy all unrighteousness, or He did not. It says He did, so you either have to believe that that is true, or deny the scriptures.

Now I have a question with so much depth on it, that if it is answered lightly, or frivolously, I fear the consequences. We will be held accountable for every idle word spoken, so please consider the great weight that this question carries before you answer it. No cliche' answer will subside.

[b][color=CC0000]Did Jesus accomplish the purpse that He came here to earth to accomplish? That purpose being what John said, to destroy all unrighteousness.[/color][/b]

Ben, we disagree on this statement:

Now, following a logical train of thought, if Satan is the father of anyone who does unrighteously, then the whole world has satan as their father.

Have you ever done anything unrighteous since you became a Christian? If you say, "No" then you are not being truthful. If you say, "Yes" then (by your logic) you are admitting that you are a child of satan. I don't believe that for a second.

The confusion between you and I arises in what sense John uses the word Sin. When John says, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." We can interpret this two ways: 1) Christians never ever sin and are perfect or 2) Christians never make a habitual practice of sining.
I believe strongly that Christians are capable or sinning and scripture proves this. For example, Peter and others sinned in the book of Galatians when they stopped eating with the Gentiles. Many other examples can be given as well.

So, if John is referring to the habitual practice of sinning, then let's look at your question:

Did Jesus accomplish the purpse that He came here to earth to accomplish? That purpose being what John said, to destroy all unrighteousness.

Jesus accomplished everything He set out to do when He came to earth, which was to "...save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21

Did Jesus destroy all unrighteousness? You tell me. Is their still unrighteousness in the world today?

Here is the truth. Jesus came to bring redemption to all those who have faith. Satan is not destroyed at this moment, but his time is coming to an end. Jesus will destroy all unrighteousness but He hasn't done it yet.

Jay, you did not address my whole post, you skipped over the most poignant parts, and went straight to a subjective interpretation of what John says. Nevertheless, I will hold your argument accountable.

It is obvious that you don't believe Jesus when He says this to God:

[b][color=CC0000]John 17:4 4I have glorified thee on the earth: [u]I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.[/u][/color][/b]

[b]I would like you to go back and really answer the whole post line by line. As your answer of it proves to me you did not consider it thouroughly.[/b]

Hi Ben,

Alot to share about in the thoughts you brought up. I will probably have to break it down into smaller chunks...please remain patient with me...

First thought...
You quoted this Scripture as part of the whole:

12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

You wrote:

Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but after reading what John wrote, it would appear to me that he believed that anyone who did unrighteously was a child of the devil. (that makes Satan their father for clarifications sake.) Now, following a logical train of thought, if Satan is the father of anyone who does unrighteously, then the whole world has satan as their father.

Now in response:

Gen. 4:6 So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

In this Scripture, we find that God counsels Cain...

God knows the beginning from the end, yet in Scripture we find that even though God knew that Cain would kill Abel, He spoke to Cain and asked him to turn to Him.

"If you do well, will you not be accepted?"

Accepted by whom?

Likewise, God asks Cain to meditate on this precept...

"And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

In this example we see that God speaks to Cain and this points to the nature of the grace that God extends to Cain.

Rom. 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Cain is given a choice to follow the One who spoke to him or to submit to sin. God clearly states to Cain, "but you should rule over it.”

Well we know that Cain chose to give in to sin....

12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

According to Scripture...there was a point in Cain's life where God instructed him in the ways that he should go. But he chose to be a fool.

Likewise Scripture speaks this same exhortation to all men...

Proverbs 9:
4 \t“Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!”
\tAs for him who lacks understanding, she says to him,
5 \t“Come, eat of my bread
\tAnd drink of the wine I have mixed.
6 \tForsake foolishness and live,
\tAnd go in the way of understanding.

To love one another as God would, requires that He gives counsel to those who seek to be wise. We cannot know by our carnal mind the ways of agape love. Only by His Holy Spirit do we receive the knowledge needed to overcome the desire that sin has for us...

I need to continue but have to think about more of the thoughts you bring to the table...

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

Brother Jay wrote:

Yes. Adam and Eve had both the ability to choose God before the Fall. Before the Fall, they had the unique ability to choose to sin and choose to not sin. Once the Fall occurred, they as well as us lose our ability to choose God apart from His grace that enables.

Gen. 4:6 So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

Did not Cain also have a choice?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ben wrote:

John makes it clear that the way you no that you are a child of God is because you love the brethren, so the opposite statement is obvious. If you do not love the bretheren, then you are a child of the devil. It is his whole concept in writing the passage that there are two types of children, those of satan, and those of God.

There is more to this idea of how one becomes a son of God or a son of Satan...

John writes...

12 I write to you, little children,
\t\tBecause your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
\t\tBecause you have known Him who is from the beginning.
\t\tI write to you, young men,
\t\tBecause you have overcome the wicked one.
\t\tI write to you, little children,
\t\tBecause you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
\t\tBecause you have known Him who is from the beginning.
\t\tI have written to you, young men,
\t\tBecause you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
\t\tAnd you have overcome the wicked one.

In this section of Scripture we find that John makes specific distinctions between those who are children, young men, and fathers. If one looks to this section of Scripture as the outline for the entire letter then one will begin to see that there is a progression in the life of each believer.

Ben quoted a section of Scripture 1 John 3:4-14.

In this section of Scripture we find that John identifies that he is speaking specifically to:

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

So then we must then begin to meditate on how John differentiates between spiritual children, young men, and fathers.

to be continued...

In Christ
Jeff

Line by line

I John 3:4-14
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but after reading what John wrote, it would appear to me that he believed that anyone who did unrighteously was a child of the devil. (that makes Satan their father for clarifications sake.) Now, following a logical train of thought, if Satan is the father of anyone who does unrighteously, then the whole world has satan as their father.

John makes it clear that the way you no that you are a child of God is because you love the brethren, so the opposite statement is obvious. If you do not love the bretheren, then you are a child of the devil. It is his whole concept in writing the passage that there are two types of children, those of satan, and those of God.
Now, you can say to me, well if they become the child of God, then it was because they always were predestined to be such. But if that is the case, then the unrighteousness that they walked in must never have been seen by either man or God, that way they could not be called a child of the devil.

Ephesians 2:1-10 says:
“1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But[b] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

All people are dead in their sins and live for the world, following satan and has a spirit of disobedience. All men are by nature children of wrath. But, it is God who makes some of us alive in Christ—by grace are we saved. We respond in faith to the grace given and we then live for God.
If you want to say that Christians are children of the devil prior to salvation then I agree to a point. I agree that prior to salvation the Christian does not desire God, but I disagree in that these are the people who are foreknown relationally by God. These people may be temporarily in the hands of satan, but they are always under God’s control and protection so that no one foreknown relationally should ever die before coming to a saving knowledge of Christ.
You appear to be taking this too far. It seems that you are saying that anyone who sins is a child of the devil, even a person who has been regenerated by God. Is this your position?

If you notice verse 8,
I John 3:8
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
John makes it perfectly clear that Jesus came to destroy what the devil had created. This would include destroying the kingdom of the devil in the hearts of his children.
I think it is perfectly obvious that John believed that before anyone was a child of God, that they were a child of the devil.

In reference then to the other passage about the Jews, it is obvious that they had satan as their father, and that that is why they wouldn't listen to the truth. But Jesus was not saying that they could not be free. He said they wouldn't listen to Him because they had satan as their father. It was an open rebuke, centered at their heart to bring repentance. Whom the Lord loves, He chastises, or rebukes. His heart was for them, not against them. But they would not.

John 5:25 says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” The Jews in John 8 physically heard Jesus’ voice but they did not spiritually hear His voice. Those who spiritually hear His voice will live. How does one spiritually hear Jesus’ voice? By grace we are saved!

1 John

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

In the section of Scripture we are discussing John is writing to "My little children" who are within the church. John differentiates the little children from young men and fathers. These are the attributes which John gives to the 'little children" of the church.

12 "I write to you, little children,
\t\tBecause your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake."

Also

13 "...I write to you, little children,
\t\tBecause you have known the Father."

Now we find this precept in other sections of Scripture...

1Cor. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

Also...

Heb. 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

These are born again believers, yet they lack understanding...their lives are filled with strife, envy, and division. They are unable to discern the ways of good and evil.

Back to the section of 1 John, John is writing so that all could experience the joy of fellowship and love. It is clear that some in the church needed to be exhorted and taught to search their own hearts.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Again,

Heb 5:

13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

A babe who is unskilled in the word of righteousness has not had his senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Now compare the babes or little children to those who are young men...what is the difference?

1 John 2:13
"...I write to you, young men,
\t\tBecause you have overcome the wicked one."

Also

14 "...I have written to you, young men,
\t\tBecause you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
\t\tAnd you have overcome the wicked one."

What precept establishes the difference between the little child and the young man?

In Christ
Jeff

JaySaved wrote:
Thank you for your responses I appreciate them, but no one so far has answered the questions. Basically you are telling me that man is held responsible for his unbelief. I agree.

But that does not answer the two questions:

Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?

or

Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?

Ben told me neither.
rookie and pastorfrin told me that God holds men accountable for unbelief.

All I am asking is for someone to tell me that God either has the ability to save all men and chooses not to save all men because of His respect for free will or He does not have the ability to save all men because of free will.

JaySaved, really!

You know darn well that the Most High can do whatever He wants, except break His own word, not because there is anything forcing Him to keep His Word, but because He wouldn't be Himself if He did break His Word. He'd be a different type of God, and not one worth having.

And frankly, just like He honor's free will, and although He has the ability to force salvation on all of us, He chooses not to, Mr. Sproul and Calvin notwithstanding.

Some might say that Paul had no choice to become a Messianic Jew, just because He saw Christ, and was blinded. If Paul had been as foolish as most of mankind is, he could have chosen to remain blind, and kept his own ways.

Does that mean that God could not overwhelm a few men here and there to get their understanding of Him, such as a few Old Testament Prophets or New Testament one's such as Paul? He can. He still has forced none. Overwhelmed, sure. Forced, no.

Blessings anyway, you contentious ol' thing, you!

P.S. I'm guessing someone has already answered you on your basic question, but frankly, about two pages into any thread and I'm starting to get bored at the repetition.

P.P.S. Now, if you want to reform Reform-ity, you can say God can choose to overwhelm people to get them saved, but I wouldn't, since the Bible only supports a handful being so roughly treated, and only because they were critical in the scheme of things.

I, for one, can't imagine the New Testament without Paul. Christ would have had to choose Gamaliel, instead, and frankly, the guy was a little old for traipsing around the countryside.

strawrifle wrote:
Ben quote "Answer me this: Is it God's will for man to sin?"

Did Peter deny Christ,or did he deny Christ because Christ said/saw he would??

If God knows all and saw/said Peter would deny him,surly Peter was programmed to deny him...How could Peter not do what God had seen/said he would do?
(same for Judas)

andy

Sorry, Andy. You can't hold Jesus responsible for telling Peter he was about to be sifted like wheat by Satan, but that He, Jesus, had prayed for him, Peter.

Yes, God knew it would happen to Judas as well. If you note the passages, Jesus said at the Last Supper, "One of you is about to betray me."
And it was after that that Judas betrayed him, even though he, Judas, had already been caught in a sin he hadn't committed yet.

It isn't that we can't see both sides of the same coin, it's that we most often choose not to.
Surely we can see God acting in human events, before, and after the fact.

Blessings,

It isn't that we can't see both sides of the same coin, it's that we most often choose not to.
Surely we can see God acting in human events, before, and after the fact.

Blessings,

Only by submitting to the whole counsel of God will one see the hand of God working to preserve the remnant. The just shall live by faith, as God speaks to him...

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

What precept establishes the difference between the little child and the young man?

Heb 5:

13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

And...

1 John 2:13
"...I write to you, young men,
Because you have overcome the wicked one."

Also

14 "...I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one."

In the whole of Scripture we find that it is the word of God that has the power to remove one from the condmnation of this world. The congregation and the church are "called out" and 'seperated" by the word of God.

God speaks, each one of us has been given the "ears" to hear. A faith that seperates, finds it source in the word of God.

In Christ
Jeff

Sorry Jay, and everyone. I've been busy over the last few days cleaning house and other stuff. Anyhow, I'm back now, and we can continue our discussion.

Jay Wrote:

The word Committeth is Poieo in the Greek. From Robertson's Word Pictures, “The present active participle (poiwn) means the habit of doing sin.”
John is setting the stage by saying that those who persist in a state of sin are not acceptable to God.

Well, I haven't read Robertson's Word Pictures, but I have researched it from Strong's, here is what they have to say;

--------------------------------------------------
[b]poieo {poy-eh'-o}[/b]

1) to make

a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.

b) to be the authors of, the cause

c) to make ready, to prepare

d) to produce, bear, shoot forth

e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self

f) to make a thing out of something

g) to (make i.e.) render one anything

1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that

2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything

h) to put one forth, to lead him out

i) to make one do something

1) cause one to

j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)

2) to do

a) to act rightly, do well

1) to carry out, to execute

b) to do a thing unto one

1) to do to one

c) with designation of time: to pass, spend

d) to celebrate, keep

1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover

e) to perform: to a promise
--------------------------------------------------

As you can clearly see, there is absolutely no mention of repitition, or habituality. Not only that, but it is talking more about singular forms of doing something than anything else.

Therefore, the argument that John is speaking of habitual sin, can be disregarded, as it is a falible stance to take concerning this passage. With this argument set aside, I will move on to your next statement.

John says Jesus came to take away whose sins? Our sins. Who is the ‘Our’? John and his audience. Who is John audience? The church.

First of all, I agree here, but I do not believe the topic he is discussing here [b](our)[/b] is to the exclusion of anyone outside of the church. It is apparent from the rest of the passage, that the issues he is bringing up are both about people inside the church, and outside. To narrow this one verse out and say "see, it's only talking about the church" I believe is neglegent to the rest of the passage and its context.

Once again we have mention of sin. Is John saying that if a person is a Christian they will never sin again? Of course not. John does say, ‘whoever sinneth hath not seen God.’ Does this mean that if I sin one time after I am saved then I have been living a lie and I do not really know God? Of course not, John is saying that those who make a habit of sin and persist in it have never met God or know Him.

With this point, I will bring up a point made by the Apostle Paul in Romans;

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 8:18-24

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20[u]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.[/u]

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[/color][/b]

If you look at the verse that I underlined, it is obvious that Paul differentiates between himself, and the body of sin. I believe John had the same doctrine in mind when he was writing this passage. If you hold John's writings up to the mirror of Paul's writings, it becomes much clearer what John is talking about. John knew just as well as Paul did that all things are lawful unto the believer. Paul had written it in Romans. To believe that John had no concept of Paul's teachings, would mean that they both held an opposing stance on the issue of sin. I submit to you, that they shared Paul's teaching on the issue. And out of that was born this message in I John.

Again, the topic I am addressing is not the believer who sins, because Paul makes it evident that the believer does not sin, his flesh does, as it serves the law of sin and death. For he says to us that when he sins, it is no longer he that does it. He teaches us that we walk according to the spirit, and so we do not sin. Those who do not walk according to the Spirit, are unbelievers.

I am addressing the unbeliever who sins. He is a child of the devil according to John. And even if the verse did mean habitual sin, according to what you believe, all men who are not regenerate, are habitual sinners. So the point I am making is that [b][u]all[/u][/b] men who are not saved, are children of the devil. That makes satan their father until they are born again. At which point, they become the children of God. As John says;

[b][color=CC0000]John 1:12 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to [u]become[/u] the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:[/color][/b]

He makes it clear that people become the sons of God. They were not always such.

I do not have time right now to address the rest of the post, as I am leaving work. But I would appreciate it if you would wait until I finish the rest of the post tomorrow before responding to it.
Thanks.

Brother Ben wrote:

He teaches us that we walk according to the spirit, and so we do not sin. Those who do not walk according to the Spirit, are unbelievers.

I do not see it this way. Paul writes:

Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Here Paul states the choice that every born again person must face...

We know that Paul teaches that all are dead before they are made alive. So when he writes this to the brethren..."For if you live according to the flesh you will die..." This means that the brethren are alive but still subject to the second death.

Then Paul states:

"but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

So Paul identifies the responsibility of the believer...we who follow the Spirit will put to death the deeds of the body.

Jesus also teaches the principle...

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Do you see that those who continue in the flesh are still in bondage to sin. Jesus says that these who continue will not abide in the house forever...

The slave does abide in the house for a time...but only those who continue on in the Spirit receive the inheritance...they abide in the house forever.

Jesus also teaches this in the parable of the sower...

Luke 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Proverbs 1:

5 \tA wise man will hear and increase learning,
\tAnd a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,
6 \tTo understand a proverb and an enigma,
\tThe words of the wise and their riddles.
7 \tThe fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
\tBut fools despise wisdom and instruction.

The brethren who despise wisdom and instruction become fools. But those who increase learning will be known by God.

In Christ
Jeff

Alright, on to the second part, and then I will respnd to you rookie.

Jay Wrote:

2 Timothy 2:19 says, “But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity." This is how we know who belongs to God and who belongs to satan: those who are born of God do not make a habit of sinning. They slide into sin, but do not stay there. Ray Comfort described it this way: You can take a pig out of the mud, clean him up and put him in a nice place to stay. He will stay clean until he sees another mud puddle. When he sees the mud he will run to it and wallow in it. Why? Because that is his nature, the mud pleases him. However, how many cats to do you see wallowing in mud? Very few if any. Why? They despise the mud and desire to be clean. They may fall into mud, but they instantly desire to be clean. This is the difference between a child of satan and a child of God.

My point exactly. John is making a seperation between the saved, and the unsaved, the children of God, and the children of satan.

The question then comes down to this issue; what does John mean by sin? I believe I made it clear in the first part of my post yesterday that John was following the same principles that Paul was following when discussing the issue of sin. John believed just as Paul, that the believer does not sin, his flesh does.

Let me put it like this, if you have to laws inside you at war, as Paul says we do, then one is for what is good and perfect, and righteous. That is our mind. Yet our flesh is still serving the law of sin and death according to Paul. He says it is not in subjection to the law of God, neither can it be.

Therefore, Christ put the flesh to death on the cross, past, present, and future. So if the flesh is completely dead, and I am serving God with my mind through the spirit, do I sin?

The answer is obviously no, this is the point Paul was making in Romans, how then can he say; "[b]all things are lawful[/b]"? It is because he is completely free from sinful flesh, as it is dead.

Therefore when John says that the believer does not sin, this is the principle he is referring to. He says that if anyone is in sin, he is a child of the devil. That is someone who has not had their flesh mortified by Christ Jesus.

He is stating such obvious facts to the believers. And we have complicated the matter far too much. He is attempting to simplify the entire principle that Paul was teaching, so as to help the believers he is writing to.

All people are dead in their sins and live for the world, following satan and has a spirit of disobedience. All men are by nature children of wrath. But, it is God who makes some of us alive in Christ—by grace are we saved. We respond in faith to the grace given and we then live for God. If you want to say that Christians are children of the devil prior to salvation then I agree to a point. I agree that prior to salvation the Christian does not desire God, but I disagree in that these are the people who are foreknown relationally by God. These people may be temporarily in the hands of satan, but they are always under God’s control and protection so that no one foreknown relationally should ever die before coming to a saving knowledge of Christ.
You appear to be taking this too far. It seems that you are saying that anyone who sins is a child of the devil, even a person who has been regenerated by God. Is this your position?

Let me first point out this in response to you agreeing only to a point.

[b][color=CC0000]Ephesians 1:3 3among whom we [u]all[/u] once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, [u]like the rest of mankind.[/u][/color][/b]

Do you notice that Paul says that we were just like the rest of mankind. He is making the point that we were no better, or worse, and if we were the same. That means that there were no special chosen ones either.

Now, according to this very scripture, it provides even more evidence that we were all children of the devil, until we became the children of God. Now, for you to say that the chosen ones were always the sons of God, then undermines everything that John says about sin, and the children of God, or the devil.

[b]Your only options become that either the chosen ones were always the children of God, or that they were the children of the devil until they became the childrn of God.[/b]

A second point that I would like to bring up is that it does not say anywhere that I have found that God foreknew the elect relationally. It says He foreknew them, and if you look up the meaning of that word foreknew, it speaks only of knowledge beforehand. Not intimacy beforehand. Those are two totally different things.

Next, if these people are always under God's control that means that He gave them over to satan for a period of time, forcing them to sin.

I am taking nothing to far, and given my explanation of these passages, and the teachings of Paul, I believe my stance is now completely clear. Anyone who sins, is a child of the devil. Anyone who does not sin, is because Christ mortified the deeds of the flesh, which are sin. So if sin is dead, it is not alive any longer in the believer. He does not sin, only the body of death does. He walks in the Spirit.

We agree on all this except you believe every single person can be a child of God and I do not see that in scripture.

The truth here is completely obvious from that passage, and it's meaning. As clear as you believe your one verse to be from Romans 8, here is an entire passage of scripture that contradicts what you believe, and you have just barely managed to avoid addressing it.

The actual verse says, "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.” (John 8:43). Despite what you wish this verse to say, it says that these Jews cannot hear or understand Jesus’ words. It does not say that they are able if only they would try harder, it says they cannot hear His Word. You explain this away by saying they would not listen even though they are capable of listening. The verse says they do not have the ability to listen.

First of all, in regards to this whole passage, verse 43 is being taken and singled out, while the first half of this conversation between the Pharisee's and Jesus is being totally ignored.

They were challenging His authority, that's how it started.

[b]Second point, look at verse 31, He was speaking to the ones that believed.[/b]

Kind of throws off the whole argument huh?

[b]They believed, but then they were going to stone Him?[/b]

Where does that fit in your whole theology of regeneration, and the like? Did they suddenly stop believing after they believed? I thought that was impossible for someone to do according to your teachings.

rookie Wrote:

I do not see it this way. Paul writes:

Let me stop you there, I will just ask a few simple questions.

What are the deeds of the flesh according to Paul?

Did Christ mortify (put to death) the deeds of the flesh according to Paul?

If the deeds of the flesh (sin) has been put to death as Paul says, how can you as a Christian be held accountable for something that has both been put to death, and forgiven by Christ when you were saved?

That's all for now, I await both yours, and Jay's response to all my posts from yesterday and today.

Brother Ben,

I posted this in another thread which I believe speaks to your question...

Heb. 5:6 As He also says in another place:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;
7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Again...

"though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered."

Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. The substance of this salvation speaks of the suffering of the flesh...

Paul writes in Romans 8:

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

First he states that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Then he states...

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Again..."IF by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body..."

Why is this required as the substance contained within salvation?

So I believe that the dicipline that God trains His elect by is to free them from the effects of the flesh...

Listen to what Scripture teaches us about those who are being conformed into His Son's image...

2Cor. 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. 6 Now if we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective for enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

Phillipians 1:
29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

Phillipians 3:
8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

Phillipians 3:

Phil. 3:15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

Phil. 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

There are many more Scriptures which speaks of suffering the death of flesh. This training takes place in those who by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh.

Why is this so important to our Father?

In Christ
Jeff

Now Brother Ben I have a question...

Heb. 12:3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
\t“My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
\tNor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 \tFor whom the LORD loves He chastens,
\tAnd scourges every son whom He receives.”

Heb. 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Why does the Father need to chasten His sons?

In Christ
Jeff

rookie wrote:

It isn't that we can't see both sides of the same coin, it's that we most often choose not to.
Surely we can see God acting in human events, before, and after the fact.

Blessings,

Only by submitting to the whole counsel of God will one see the hand of God working to preserve the remnant. The just shall live by faith, as God speaks to him...

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

Jeff,

Were you agreeing with me, commenting on my statement, or disagreeing with me?

I agree with what you say, but am unsure why you said it.

Help!

Forrest

Brothers Ben, Jeff, and Jay,

I have a question that suits your discussion particularly.

For much of my life I have walked equally with Lucifer on my left side and Jesus on my right.

I sinned greatly, but I was honest in giving my heart to the Lord.

During these years, Lucifer sought to tear me away from Jesus. Jesus, walked with me, teaching me bit by bit, as I sinned constantly, until I gave again to Jesus what was already His, and while I was in the midst of being chastised greatly for my life's sins, and taught to try to stay on the path.

I knew next to nothing at 15 of what God would require me to learn, how I would learn it, or how he would use it. At five weeks short of 52, I still cannot keep from sin, yet I know a great deal of what Jesus wants of me, and what He wanted me to learn, and what He will use it for.

Is this not what you are discussing? How can one be in constant, wilful sin in the flesh, and yet have Jesus in your heart?

Blessings,

Forrest

Brother Forrest asked:

Jeff,

Were you agreeing with me, commenting on my statement, or disagreeing with me?

I agree with what you say, but am unsure why you said it.

Help!

I was coming alongside you. I have found that when we choose one side or the other it is because we have not considered the entire Scriptures but for the most part disregard the OT and its admonitions...

Proverbs 1:

5 \tA wise man will hear and increase learning,
\tAnd a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,
6 \tTo understand a proverb and an enigma,
\tThe words of the wise and their riddles.

The answers to the riddles and enigmas are found in the OT...

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Forrest wrote:

Is this not what you are discussing? How can one be in constant, wilful sin in the flesh, and yet have Jesus in your heart?

I am trying to focus on the real life relationship that one will find as he or she walks with Jesus. Your statement above speaks to this precept that one finds as he is growing in the ways of the Lord...

Gal. 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

As we grow to recognize the work of the Spirit in our lives we will also be constantly shown the corruption that exists in our flesh. We have been trained and led by our carnal minds. Yet when we come to God and submit to His ways...the Lord will begin to show us what seperates us from Him.

In terms of growing in the ways of the Lord, througout Scripture, both the OT and NT, we are exhorted to grow in understanding and wisdom.

All the ways that man stumbles are covered in the parable of the Sower and the seed. We find that only by growing in the knowledge of Scripture, illuminated by the Holy Spirit, do we begin to recognize His voice.

If we obey His voice, we find a treasure that causes us to hope for the things the world does not understand. If we obey His voice, we find that He will lead us by His Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

The substance of our relationship with Him will conform us into the image of His Son. As we grow in wisdom we find that the things we once loved are the things He hates. And we also find now that as He teaches us about His righteousness we begin to cherish Him more and more.

As we follow Him, He will with all wisdom and love demonstrate His faithfulness in teaching us how to love God with our whole hearts, mind, and strenght, and then to love one another as He loves us.

This requires that He destroys our reliance on "self" and seek to be nurtured by Him. Agape love is the absence of "self." We then learn to love as Jesus loves. We then learn to glorify Him because He has implanted His word in our hearts. It is the "word" that shows us the intent of our hearts daily. If we live day by day, one moment at a time, we will learn that He can cleanse us of all types of unrighteousness. We are called to:

Proverbs 4:

26 \tPonder the path of your feet,
\tAnd let all your ways be established.

Do we "ponder the path of" our "feet." Do we allow ourselves to be trained by the word of God so that we can discern between what is evil and what is good.

Sorry for the rant

God Bless
jeff

Jeff,

When you answer my question, I prefer you do it in depth, and not in part. After all, I wanted to hear your thoughts on the matter.

It will be interesting to see what Ben and JaySaved have to say on the matter, since the three of you always have differing ways of viewing things.

Thank you for answering me.

Many Blessings,

Forrest

Brothers Ben, Jeff, and Jay,
I have a question that suits your discussion particularly.
For much of my life I have walked equally with Lucifer on my left side and Jesus on my right.
I sinned greatly, but I was honest in giving my heart to the Lord.
During these years, Lucifer sought to tear me away from Jesus. Jesus, walked with me, teaching me bit by bit, as I sinned constantly, until I gave again to Jesus what was already His, and while I was in the midst of being chastised greatly for my life's sins, and taught to try to stay on the path.
I knew next to nothing at 15 of what God would require me to learn, how I would learn it, or how he would use it. At five weeks short of 52, I still cannot keep from sin, yet I know a great deal of what Jesus wants of me, and what He wanted me to learn, and what He will use it for.
Is this not what you are discussing? How can one be in constant, wilful sin in the flesh, and yet have Jesus in your heart?
Blessings,

Honestly, I struggle with the statement “I have walked equally with Lucifer on my left side and Jesus on my right.” If this is pre-regeneration then you were walking with Lucifer and Jesus was calling you to Himself. If this is post-regeneration then you are walking with Jesus and Lucifer is laying traps for you to stumble. I find it hard to believe that one can walk equally with both. But having said that, I see a dilemma in your words.
You say that you cannot keep from sin yet you know Jesus and what He has for you. It is almost as if you are saying that in your inner man you delight in the Law of God yet you see another work in your flesh. Brother this is what Paul spoke of in Romans 7:13-25

“Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”

Brother, do those verses hit close to home? They sure do to me! I delight in God, but I also see this other side of me that actually desires sin. This is frightening and this war rages everyday. There was no war before I was saved, but now that I am a child of God I see this battle raging. Satan is trying to keep me off the battlefield and Christ is calling me forward. I know that I am responsible for my actions and I know the Biblical command to “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:” (Colossians 3:5-6)

Let us both stand strong and cling close to the Savior for He is our only deliverance.

Now Brother Ben I have a question...

Heb. 12:3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

Heb. 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Why does the Father need to chasten His sons?

For the purpose of sanctification. He does not chastise us based off of our sin, that would be unjust because He already paid for it once, and put it to death at salvation.

But just because it is not us that sins, that does not mean that we always do everything right. We still make mistakes, and God corrects them so that we become more like Him.

To say that we are chastised due to sin in our lives, is not the God I serve, my God paid for all my sins, past present, and future ones on the cross. To undermine the atonement, and its entire purpose, (making us righteous) is absolutely a contradiction of true doctrine.
--------------------------------------------------

Now let me ask you a question, when John says;

[b][color=CC0000]I John 1:8 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.[/color][/b]

Is he saying this in context of someone who is saved, or unsaved?

I have a question that suits your discussion particularly.

For much of my life I have walked equally with Lucifer on my left side and Jesus on my right.

I sinned greatly, but I was honest in giving my heart to the Lord.

During these years, Lucifer sought to tear me away from Jesus. Jesus, walked with me, teaching me bit by bit, as I sinned constantly, until I gave again to Jesus what was already His, and while I was in the midst of being chastised greatly for my life's sins, and taught to try to stay on the path.

I knew next to nothing at 15 of what God would require me to learn, how I would learn it, or how he would use it. At five weeks short of 52, I still cannot keep from sin, yet I know a great deal of what Jesus wants of me, and what He wanted me to learn, and what He will use it for.

Is this not what you are discussing? How can one be in constant, wilful sin in the flesh, and yet have Jesus in your heart?

To some degree yes, really all of this is a side trail to what we were really discussing. I was attempting to make a point in our discussion, and now we are having a different discussion entirely. But nevertheless, in response to what you appear to be asking;

"Let those who name the name of Christ, depart from lawlessness."

[b][color=CC0000]I John 2:3-6

3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[/color][/b]

Does this mean that the moment we are saved that we do everything perfectly? No, it doesn't. And I as much as any other Christian can tell you the ravages of sin in our flesh that we have faced.

I believe it is perfectly clear through Pauls teachings, that the flesh, and the deeds thereof, (sin) were put to death at calvary by our Lord. That is the only way that a man could walk with the Lord, and not be judged of God every moment he remains alive.

So, do I commit sin?

No, God forbid, my flesh does.

I serve Christ whole heartedly.

Yet my flesh, wars against my heart. So much so that it is easy to confuse the two, and to believe that your own will, is that of the flesh. Which it is not. Your own will, is surrendered to Jesus Christ, while the flesh's will to that of sin and death.

For it cannot be subject to the law of God, therefore it had to be judged as Paul says. So the flesh was judged, and put to death, and now we remain alive serving God with a clear conscience.

I could go into greater detail, but I would rather start a seperate post for the discussion, and remain on the topic which we were discussing prior to this side note.

[b]Hey Jay, I'm still waiting on your response to my two posts.[/b]

I don't want to get to far off topic, we were right in the middle of an important part of the discussion, and something always distracts us and then we start over. Let's plow back into where we were.

Ben wrote:

A second point that I would like to bring up is that it does not say anywhere that I have found that God foreknew the elect relationally. It says He foreknew them, and if you look up the meaning of that word foreknew, it speaks only of knowledge beforehand. Not intimacy beforehand. Those are two totally different things.

Ben, I doubt most people familiar with Christianity would ever make the following statement: ‘God doesn’t know I exist.’ I would guess that almost anyone who has ever read the Bible, heard a sermon, or had a friend who is a Christian knows that God is supernatural and is aware of all things and all people. The concept of an all-knowing deity is very well-known and almost universally accepted.

However in Matthew 7:22-23, Jesus says the following: “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Jesus says a very remarkable phrase: ‘I never knew you.’ What does He mean by this phrase? Is Jesus saying that He has no knowledge of this person’s existence?
An answer of ‘Yes’ states the belief that it is possible for someone to be born, live, and die without God ever being knowledgeable of those events and that person. This is proven false because Scripture affirms that God knows everyone—all who have ever lived, all who are now living, and all who will ever live. Acts 17:25-26 tells us that God Himself “gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place.” Therefore, the answer must be ‘No.’ Scripture affirms that God has knowledge of every person’s existence.

So, why does Jesus make the statement, ‘I never knew you’ if He is not referring to the knowledge of a person’s existence? What other reason is available? For the answer to this we must go to Romans 8:28-30:
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

The word “Foreknew” is translated here from the Greek word Proginosko. This word derives its meaning from the words Pro and Ginosko. Pro meaning “before” and Ginosko meaning “to know”. Ginosko is the same word Jesus used in Matthew 7:23. The foreknowledge spoken of in Romans 8 is a relational foreknowledge that is different and more intimate than the knowledge that someone simply exists. Jesus makes this clear in Matthew 7 that He relationally foreknows some people, but not others.

Proginosko in Romans 8:29 refers to knowledge that God possessed before the world began. What was this knowledge? Romans 8:29-30 tell us that it is the knowledge of those individuals who would receive salvation. But Proginosko can also mean Foreordain. In the KJV 1 Peter 1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,”

Hey Jay, I am answering your post, but I am still waiting for you to address both my posts in context of their whole arguments.

After reading what you posted, I studied it out further than I have before, and I came to the conclusion that you are correct. God did foreknow us relationally. I don't know how it escaped me, as this makes perfect sense with a God who has perfect knowledge.

The only point I find contention with is that you said this,

[u]But Proginosko can also mean Foreordain.[/u]

In the KJV 1 Peter 1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,”

This is an incorrect statement. You are attempting to take an english translation found in the scripture, and pin it to a greek word.

We already have the definition of the word [b]proginosko[/b], and know what it means from it's root definitions. Taking this verse in I Peter and attempting to establish another meaning than what the definitions show us is completely wrong.

The correct process is to go the opposite way, and show that the verse in I Peter has an incorrectly translated word, as it does not fit the definition of the word [b]proginosko[/b].

This is very bad logic, and false interpretation. I don't know who is teaching this, but they need to go back to apologetics school, and learn all of the errors in translation that we have in our Bibles.

You know very well, just as I do, that the interpreters of the KJV as well as all the others have placed cultural and personal influence into the final work. If it didn't make sense the way it was written, they would use what did make sense to some degree. This was not the case every time, but in man cases it was.

Even though I now agree with you on the issue of a God who foreknew us relationally, it still does not teach that He foreordained us. He foreknew us relationally, no more or less. Foreordination is a step that is not found in the scriptures, because it contradicts free will.

You know very well, just as I do, that the interpreters of the KJV as well as all the others have placed cultural and personal influence into the final work. If it didn't make sense the way it was written, they would use what did make sense to some degree. This was not the case every time, but in man cases it was.

Better not let Krispy read this! :-)

Ben, was Jesus the son not ordained before the creation of the world to seek and to save that which was lost?

I know you don't like to read what these verses say but I must quote these verses in John 17:
"John 17
The High Priestly Prayer
1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth."

You can look at this two ways: 1) The people Jesus are praying for are given to Jesus by God only after they came to faith. 2) God gave these people to Jesus before the world began.

Option 2 is clearly taught in these verses. Also, look at verse number 4. It says that Jesus accomplished the work God gave Him to do. Does this not mean that God foreordained Jesus to this task.

Jay Wrote:

Ben, was Jesus the son not ordained before the creation of the world to seek and to save that which was lost?

Absolutely He was. The scripture tells us that's why He came, and that He only does God's will.

[b][color=CC0000]John 17:12

12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, [u]which you have given me. I have guarded them, and [i]not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction,[/i][/u] that the Scripture might be fulfilled.[/color][/b]

[b]Hold on here, was Judas one of the ones given to Jesus? Jesus himself says that none were lost except for one. That means that Jesus lost Judas, how can that be? Oh wait I know, Jesus ordained that Judas would betray Him. Wait a minute! That's not right either. What are we to do with this whole passage? It does not fit what you say! Jesus can lose one of the ones given to Him??[/b]

First thing to note, is that Jesus is not teaching anyone anything about foreordination, predestination, or the like. He is praying for the believers that satan will not take them. Oh, but I thought you believed it wasn't possible for a true believer to ever fall away. If that were true, why is Jesus praying that?

Anyways, back on subject.

You can look at this two ways: 1) The people Jesus are praying for are given to Jesus by God only after they came to faith. 2) God gave these people to Jesus before the world began.

Option 2 is clearly taught in these verses. Also, look at verse number 4. It says that Jesus accomplished the work God gave Him to do. Does this not mean that God foreordained Jesus to this task.

Or option 3, Those that were given to Him, were given because they believed. He foreknew them relationally, because He has infinite knowledge to do so. So the ones who would be saved out of their own free will, He foreknew them relationally. There is no talk of foreordination.

Now, may I point out, that since God is not limited by the time we function under, the scripture says Christ was crucified at the foundation of the earth. In the same way, God gave these to Him. wait, now were they given to Him before the earth began, or did it happen when Christ came into the earth?

[b]Same paradigm Jay. You tell me, when Christ was crucified, and I'll tell you when they were given to Christ.[/b]

Lastly, how are all of us saved, if everyone Jesus was given was already saved as you say? He said He finished His work on earth, does that mean He is done with humanity? I think not.

Ben, I am thankful that you admit that Jesus was foreordained as 1 Peter 1:20 states.

Judas betrayed Christ and Judas is held responsible for this sin. However, the bible clearly prophesies that this would occur and God used it for His purpose. It was always within the plan of God. Judas was called to Jesus, but not in the way the others were. Judas never received the saving grace given to the others.

Ben, foreknowledge based upon foreseen faith is a contradiction to election. Election is defined in the Bible as God choosing someone not based on anything done either good or bad. Would we not agree that faith is a good thing that is done? So, for God to base his foreknowledge upon foreseen faith would be to base it upon something done in man that was good. This is a contradiction.

Ben, Jesus was crucified around 33 A.D. Everyone knows this.

Revelation 13:20 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

This is the same thing spoken of in 1 Peter 1:19-20, "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"

Jesus was not crucified before the world began, but was foreordained to be crucified before the world began. "He was manifest in these last times for you".

I hope you do not believe that Jesus was actually crucified before the world began...

Concerning Judas Jesus says in John 13:18, "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."

Brother Ben wrote:

But just because it is not us that sins, that does not mean that we always do everything right. We still make mistakes, and God corrects them so that we become more like Him.

I see it in a different light...When we do not do things right it is because we rely on our flesh and carnal mind. Yet, we have the Spirit of Christ available at all times. So then our mistake is sin, because we choose the ways of the flesh.

To say that we are chastised due to sin in our lives, is not the God I serve, my God paid for all my sins, past present, and future ones on the cross. To undermine the atonement, and its entire purpose, (making us righteous) is absolutely a contradiction of true doctrine.

What do we learn from the book of Job?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Jay wrote:

I find it hard to believe that one can walk equally with both.

Scripture tells a different story.

1Cr 3:1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

2 Corinthians 6:
11 O Corinthians! We have spoken openly to you, our heart is wide open. 12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections. 13 Now in return for the same (I speak as to children), you also be open.
14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you* are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

"I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people."*

17 Therefore

"Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you."*
18 "I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty."*

In each of these cases Paul points to the fact that the Corinthians, althought they have been given all the Spiritual blessings that are in Christ, yet they walk as men after the flesh and are not able to understand the spiritual things. They still rely on their carnal mind.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Jay wrote:

There was no war before I was saved, but now that I am a child of God I see this battle raging. Satan is trying to keep me off the battlefield and Christ is calling me forward

I agree...this is my experience also.

In Christ
jeff

Brother Ben wrote:

Yet my flesh, wars against my heart. So much so that it is easy to confuse the two, and to believe that your own will, is that of the flesh. Which it is not. Your own will, is surrendered to Jesus Christ, while the flesh's will to that of sin and death.

This is not Scriptural...your flesh wars against the Spirit that is in you. Scripture teaches that you have a choice to submit to the Spirit or to the flesh, righteousness or sin.

You are mixing up positional theology with relational theology.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ben wrote:

For it cannot be subject to the law of God, therefore it had to be judged as Paul says. So the flesh was judged, and put to death, and now we remain alive serving God with a clear conscience.

Paul teaches that the carnal mind cannot fulfill the law of God. The flesh never changes in its corruption. What change for the individual who submits to God is that he or she now has the Holy Spirit to lead them. If we follow the Holy Spirit, the Spirit will lead us to put to death the deed of the body. If we choose to follow the carnal mind we are doomed to corruption. So then it is by faith, and faith comes by hearing God speak to us.

Job 36

But gives justice to the oppressed.
7 He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous;
But they are on the throne with kings,
For He has seated them forever,
And they are exalted.
8 And if they are bound in fetters,
Held in the cords of affliction,
9 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions--
That they have acted defiantly.
10 He also opens their ear to instruction,
And commands that they turn from iniquity.
11 If they obey and serve Him,
They shall spend their days in prosperity,
And their years in pleasures.
12 But if they do not obey,
They shall perish by the sword,
And they shall die *without knowledge.

In Christ
Jeff

Jeff, Paul calls the Corinthian believers 'carnal' because of disputes in the church over leadership.

Paul has a different name for those who are living in sin. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:11 Paul says, "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."

Paul doesn't call him a carnal Christian, he calls him a hypocrite who is a 'so-called' brother.

Just wanted to thank all of you for taking time out to answer my question.

As I had not read all of the thread at that point, I could not know that you had changed the subject.

Sorry for the interruption, and again, thank you all.

Blessings,

Forrest

Brother Jay wrote:

Jeff, Paul calls the Corinthian believers 'carnal' because of disputes in the church over leadership.

I see it in a different light...

The dispute of leadership is the fruit of the condition which Paul points to in the prior verses...
1Cr 3:1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

1Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

1Cr 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

A carnal christian has not come to understand how he must follow the leading of ths Spirit. This precept is taught by Paul in Romans 8...
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:12 ¶ Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

All those brethren who choose to not follow the Spirit will continue in striving against one another...

In Christ
Jeff

Hey rookie, and Jay, I am putting together a response, but it is taking a bit longer than usual. This response is a bit more in depth, but I will be done with it probably tonight, or tommorrow.

Thanks for waiting.

The Bible does not speak of two kinds of Christians: Carnal and Spiritual. If the Bible does divide Christians in any manner it is: immature and mature. In other words, Paul is not telling us that there are two types of Christians but is telling us that Christians (especially immature ones) can act in a Carnal manner. Paul then quickly tells them that this carnality has no place in the life of a believer.

Notice that Paul speaks to the babes in Christ and tells them that they are acting carnally. Paul speaks to them this way because they are arguing and fighting over their favorite teachers. Next, notice the person who is guilty of sexual immorality and Paul tells the church “if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (1 Cor. 5:11) Paul tells the immature Christians to do the right thing and expel the immoral man. Paul tells them to expel this so-called brother because he has no business being in the church if he acts in that manner. Paul tells them to not even eat with this man as long as he is engaged in this activity.

Notice the difference between the believers called “carnal” and the so-called believer called “immoral”. This is very important, Paul does not call the man guilty of sexual immorality a “Carnal Christian”. A person cannot be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner and be a Christian! Yes, a Christian can slide into sin, but the Christian will not remain in that state of sin. I believe this doctrine of the ‘Carnal Christian’ is one of the worst things that has ever happened to Christianity. Many people refer to their friends or family as ‘Carnal Christians’. They wish they would “put Jesus on the throne”, but at least they are saved. This is not what Paul is saying. Paul is saying Carnality is wrong and must be repented of. Paul is saying that anyone who lives a sinful lifestyle must be expelled from the Church. I find no scriptural basis for a Carnal Christian who “has self on the throne”.
Read these words from Jesus in Luke 6:43-49

“For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.”

“Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you? Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the one who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the stream broke against it, immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.”

Modern Christianity tells us that the man who built his house without a foundation is a Christian who has Jesus as Savior but does not have Him Lord. This person will experience a lot of pain and hardship because they are not trusting on Jesus. When troubles come, they will not have the help they need.
But the orthodox and historical understanding of these verses is that the man who builds his house without a foundation is a lost man who does not trust God or even know God. This person will fall because they do not know Jesus and all they have will be taken away on the Day of Judgment.
I speak from experience because for many years I was called a “Carnal Christian” when in reality I was LOST. Praise God for calling me out of my darkness.

I repeat my earlier statement that one cannot walk equally with the devil and Jesus. We will serve one...we cannot have two masters.

rookie, I am going to respond to all of this as in depth as I can, if I appear a bit harsh in some of my speech, forgive me, but it would appear that you have not spent much time studying Romans in it's entirety, and comparing it to the other books Paul wrote. The concepts that I am speaking are scriptural, and have nothing to do with a doctrinal position. If you read Romans, and use just a tiny bit of logic in your interpretation, you will come to an obvious conclusion. I will have many points of which I will wish you to address each one.

This may be a bit tedious, but I must lay a proper foundation for the arguments of which I am making, so be patient, and please read the whole thing carefully.
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Let's start here, I know it's nearly impossible to start anywhere in the middle of Paul's writings, but nevertheless, I will make the attempt.

[b]Romans 3[/b]

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 3:19

19Now we know that [u]what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law[/u]: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.[/color][/b]

Ok, so by reading this, most people skip over it, but I want to take a more in-depth look at it. If you look at the part I underlined, it is obvious from this statement Paul makes, that the law speaks only to those who are under the law. That means it does not speak to those who are not under the law. Simple logic, let's move on.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 3:20

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.[/color][/b]

Ok, whole verse on this one, [b]the flesh cannot be justified in God's sight.[/b] It is all together abominable, and it cannot stand in the presence of God because it is contrary to God. Let's continue.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 3:21-22

21But now [u]the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,[/u] being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: [u]for there is no difference:[/u]
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Ok, so Paul is making a point here, he is saying, that now, there is a righteousness that is not from the law. He further makes the point that this righteousness is being manifested to those that believe in Christ. So those who believe are being given righteousness.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 3:23-24

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
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Now he says here that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God", now he pauses here, he does not make a period like everyone thinks, it is the beginning of a whole thought. He then continues, "being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ."

He is showing here that the atonement is for everyone who has sinned, grace given freely to all, as all have sinned. So all, have been freely justified based off of one condition, that they believe, that is why he prepped this thought with it's preceeding two verses.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 3:25-26

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
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So Paul continues the thought, stating that the propitiation comes through faith in His blood. Propitiation, being forgiveness from all sin, pat, present, and future. The purpose of all this was that Christ declare His righteousness.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 3:27-28

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
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Paul now condemns the issue of boasting, and the doing of works to achieve righteousness as an abomination to the new righteousness which is found by faith in the blood of Christ.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 3:29-31

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30[u]Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.[/u]

31[u]Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.[/u]
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Now Paul states that both the circumcised, and the uncircumcised will be justified by faith. And that we are not doing away with the law, but further we are establishing it.

[b]Romans 4[/b]

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 4:1-5

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2[u]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.[/u]

3For what saith the scripture? [u]Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.[/u]

4[u]Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.[/u]

5[u]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[/u]
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Paul makes the case here, that not only are we not achieving righteousness by works, but furthermore, if you are attempting to seek righteousness through works, it only establishes a greater debt upon you.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 4:6-10

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, [u]unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,[/u]

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8[u]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.[/u]

9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? [u]for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.[/u]

10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? [u]Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.[/u]
[/color][/b]

Now he shows how David believed in the same concept, and that Abraham himself was uncircumcised when God counted him as righteousness.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 4:11-13

11And he received the sign of circumcision, [u]a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised[/u]: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; [u]that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:[/u]

12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, [u]but through the righteousness of faith.[/u]
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Now he shows that circumcision was a sign of the promise of heirs, heirs that would come by faith, which would yield righteousness, and thereby create heirs.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 4:15

[u]15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.[/u][/color][/b]

Now Paul says something that is easily passed over without an in depth study. He says that where there is no law, there is no transgression. Keep this idea in mind, as I will return to this concept later.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 4:16-25

16[u]Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;[/u] to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, [u]who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.[/u]

18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22[u]And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.[/u]

23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
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Now Paul is summing up the argument of how Abraham was made righteous by faith, and that God will in the same way make us now righteous, just as He did with Abraham.

Now, Abraham's righteousness came by faith, and not by works. I will return to this a bit later.

[b]Romans 5[/b]

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 5:1-9

1[u]Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:[/u]

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9[u]Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.[/u][/color][/b]

Now this would appear to be very self explanatory, but I want to point out something from verse nine. He says that now that we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Is Paul saying that the saved will be saved again? We know that justification is what Christ did on the cross. Becoming the atonement for the whole world. So I move to say this:

We have all been justified, every man has been given justification. Paul said earlier that atonement comes through faith. So a man must have faith to receive this justification. He cannot have it unless he believes. It has been freely offered to him, as Christ was the atonement for all men.

So Paul is saying that since we are all justified, many more will be saved now through Jesus Christ. Not all will be saved, many more will.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 5:10-21

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, [u]much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.[/u]

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [u]by whom we have now received the atonement.[/u]

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13[u](For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.[/u]

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. [u]For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.[/u]

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18[u]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.[/u]

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20[u]Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:[/u]

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Paul makes it clear throughout this whole passage, that by one man death reigned upon all men, so by one man, eternal life is offered to all men. Indisputable. Now, that said, let's move on.

[b]Romans 6[/b]

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 6:1-2

1What shall we say then? [u]Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?[/u]

2God forbid. [u]How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?[/u][/color][/b]

Now the first thing everyone does when they read this is say, that means we should stop sinning, but that is not Paul's point at all. What he is saying is so obvious it's almost ridiculous that it has been messed up so much.

He asks a question, "How are we who are dead to sin, live in it any longer? I is a rhetorical question, we cannot live in something that is dead. Sin is dead, so we cannot as believers walk in it. He is not asking whether a believer can sin, he is making the point that they can't, because sin is dead, and they are alive. I will continue proving this point as I explain further.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 6:3-5

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ [u]were baptized into his death?[/u]

4[u]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.[/u]

5[u]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:[/u]

6Knowing this, [u]that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.[/u]
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Paul goes on to say that we were baptized into Christ's death, so we died with Him. And if we died with Him, then we were also raised with Him in ressurection. Therefore we are dead to sin and the law, and alive to Christ, and righteousness.

Then Paul says that our old man, the body of death was destroyed by all of this, so that we will not serve sin from that point on, that is the meaning of henceforth. Now allow me to bring up another point that John makes in I John 2, he says "anyone who sins, is the servant of sin." Simple as that, Paul says we serve it no longer, and John says that if we sin at all, then we are serving it.

So we conclude that if we sin, we are servants of sin. Paul says we do not serve it from the point of death and ressurection with Christ. So if we did, we would not have been truly saved.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 6:7-11

7[u]For he that is dead is freed from sin.[/u]

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9[u]Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.[/u]

10For in that he died, [u]he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.[/u]

11[u]Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.[/u]
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Again Paul is bringing up the point that anyone who is dead is free from sin. Now when he says they are free from sin, what does he mean? Are they really free? Or does sin still have a hold on them? Do they still sin? Because if they do sin, they are it's servant, and not really free are they? Does Paul mean that they are free from it, but still walk in it?

I believe both Paul and I have made it perfectly clear that that can't be true. If you are dead to sin, you must be totally free, or totally in bondage, it is not both.

Christ died unto sin only once, broke it's power, and it's dominion. And we died unto sin with him only once. Sin's power, and dominion are completely, and totally broken over us through that act.

So Paul says that we are to reckon ourselves alive to Christ, and dead to sin. He who is dead, is free from sin. He who is alive to Christ, is Christ's servant.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 6:12-14

12Let not sin therefore reign in [u]your mortal body[/u], that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye [u]your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin[/u]: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and [u]your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.[/u]

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: [u]for ye are not under the law[/u], but under grace.
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Notice that Paul chooses his words very carefully throughout every passage, and in this one, it is no different. He says, "do not let sin reign in your mortal body." Now we have two things to deal with in this verse, one is sin reigning, the concept that Paul is teaching here is that since sin no longer has dominion, you do not have to yield to it. The second concept, is the mortal body, Paul has already made it clear in past passages that we are free from sin, and he is about to make a point about our mortal bodies in just a few verses here.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 6:15-17

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, [u]but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.[/u]
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Ok, so the first thing that every good Christian in America believes when they read this is that Paul just said stop sinning, but that is not what he said at all, given the context of this passage, and the ones to come, the only logical conclusion you can draw without destroying what Paul is teaching is this:

Paul's concept is still on the issue of either repenting, or remaining the same, remember he is addressing both Jews and gentiles, and instructing them on the issue of the saved and the unsaved. In many of these passages, his points are directed at the Jews, the passages are given to the gentiles for understanding, but to the Jews to repent.

So realizing that he is speaking directly to two people groups about the saved and unsaved, is the first step to understanding what it is he means by what he says.

So Paul is saying to the Jews who were under the law, now that you are not under the law, you can't just continue how you are, because this was a question that the Jews raised against what Paul was teaching. Paul's point is this;

You who were under the law, both Jews and Gentiles, now that you are free from the law, you cannot continue on sinning, you must repent, and yield yourselves to God. This is really all that Paul is saying here, that becomes clear with his later passages.

Notice in verse 17, "But you have obeyed the truth that was given to you." He is again making a distinction between who he is talking to here, he is very clear, but it takes some careful examination to really understand.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 6:18-23

18[u]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.[/u]

19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: [u]for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.[/u]

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22[u]But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.[/u]

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Now Paul is clarifying, as he always does, he says, "you, being free, are servants of righteousness." And then he says in verse 19, "now just as before you repented, you yielded to sin, now yield to righteousness that you are free."

It's really becoming more clear, and more simple what Paul means each verse we progress.

Now let me point out, that nowhere in that passage did he tell them to stop sinning as believers, he told them that sinners sin, and believers are righteous, and they should be such.

[b]Romans 7[/b]

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 7:1-4

1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) [u]how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?[/u]

2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; [u]but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.[/u]

3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4Wherefore, my brethren, [u]ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.[/u]
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Now Paul is taking everything he has said thus far, a step deeper, he is pushing the envelope, so that it will be clear to those who are hungry spiritually, and unclear to those who are not.

He starts off this way, saying, "the law has dominion over any man that is alive." Then he proceeds to compare it to marriage according to moses law.

But then he says this, "But you are dead to the law, so bring forth fruit of it." It is really that simple. The law has no claim on you.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 7:5-6

5[u]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins,[/u] which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6[u]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.[/u]
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He says now, "When we were in the flesh...(this means unrepented, unsaved, unregenerate.)

Then he says, "But now we are delivered from the law. Don't serve God by the letter(works of righteousness) but by newness of Spirit.(Faith, and believing.) Remember that this is one letter, and he is referencing Abraham with this verse to clarify the point.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 7:7

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for [u]I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[/u][/color][/b]

Now you might think it strange that I singled out this verse for examination, but my point here is one of which I will indulge more later. Nevertheless, in this verse we find a stunning concept that is overlooked by most Christians. Paul makes a shocking statement, [b]"I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."[/b]

Why did Paul say this? Was it merely a random statement, or does it hold a key into the understanding of what he is communicating?

He links up "Thou shalt not covet" to "Lust". We in America think lust, has to do with men and women, or worldly possessions. But this is not what Paul is saying.

What Paul is saying here is [b]that the law made even the desire to do wickedness sin, the lust to do sin was now condemned by the commandment of "Thou shalt not covet".[/b]

This is the concept about the law that Jesus made when he said that if you hate someone, you are a murderer. You see, it is the inward desires that are sinful above all things. So Paul understood the same thing as what Jesus was communicating about the law.

So we are left with a concept here, that you must keep in mind when understanding what Paul is saying. The desire to do wickedness, of any sort, that alone is sin. He expounds upon this shortly.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 7:8-12

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, [u]wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.[/u] For without the law sin was dead.

9[u]For I was alive without the law once:[/u] but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, [u]I found to be unto death.[/u]

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, [u]deceived me,[/u] and by it slew me.

12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
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Now Paul is making clear, that without the law, he was alive, and free from sin, but once the law entered the world, he was no longer alive because of it. The law made him sinful, where before it entered he was not. And the law which is Holy, rather than making him holy, only made him more sinful, and completely dead. So he had thought it would bring him life, but it really only brought him death.

Yet, even though the law only brought death wherever it went, it was still holy.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 7:13-14

13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
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Now Paul clarifies what he just said by summing it up with verse 13. Now he says, it was not the law that made me sinful, but sin itself, and the commandment(the law) came so that the sin already in me would become exceedingly sinful.

And then he says, "The law is spiritual, and I am carnal."

Wait a minute, Paul is carnal, how can he be yielded to God if he is carnal? As we already know, and will see shortly in Romans 8, the carnal mind cannot be subject to God. So how is Paul yielded to God if he is carnal, everyone knows that if you walk carnally, you will die. [b]Is Paul going to hell?[/b] Or is Paul saying something else here? I submit to you that we will find the answer to this as we move further along.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 7:15-18

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18[u]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.[/u]
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Ok, so here we have Paul, describing his carnality, but then in verse 18 he clarifies something. He says, that "in him dwells no good thing." Wait, but he says more than that, he carifies that he is talking about his flesh, his flesh is carnal, and in it dwells no good thing. Let's continue.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 7:19-20

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20[u]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.[/u]
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Now Paul changes the I there from the flesh, to the spirit as he says this:

"It is not me that sins, it is sin that dwells in me." Now let's disect that verse, and replace the word "I" with what Paul meant each time he said "I".

[b]20Now if I(flesh) do that I(spiritual) would not, it is no more I(spiritual) that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me(flesh).[/b]

[b]Therefore the believer does not sin, because what sin he commits, comes from the flesh, against the will of the spirit, and the believer is dead both to sin, and the flesh. But he is alive only to the spirit.[/b]

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 7:21

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.[/color][/b]

Now Paul says that even when he wants to do what is right, at the same time that desire to do wrong is present, and the law condemns that desire as sin. [b]Therefore, either you are in constant sin, as that desire is always present, and therfore according to common belief "carnally minded". Or the flesh is really dead, you are really dead to sin, and you are only alive to the spirit.[/b]

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 7:22-25

22[u]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:[/u]

23But I see another law in my members, [u]warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.[/u]

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me [u]from the body of this death?[/u]

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [u]So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.[/u]
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Now Paul continues, with the inward man(the one that is alive only to the spirit) I delight in the law of God.

But another law holds me captive, that desire to do wickedness. Judging him as unrighteous, and carnal.

Then Paul says " who shall deliver me from my carnal mind???"

No, he doesn't. He says, "Who shall deliver me from what? [u]From this body of death.[/u](The flesh, and it's carnality.)

Again, the seperation between the body of death(the flesh) and the spirit.

Then in verse 25, Paul says that with his mind he serves the law of God, and with his flesh, the law of sin and death. Here we now have a conflict of interests, if Paul is the servant of sin, is he not condemned to hell as he is going to tell us at the beginning of chapter 8? How can he say that he serves both of them? And note he doesn't say one more than the other. How is this possible?

[b]It is only possible because it is his flesh who is serving sin, and his flesh is dead, Paul is free from his flesh. But with his mind, he serves God, and his mind is free from the flesh as it is dead. Therefore, the thing which is dead, is not reckognized, and only that which is alive is. So Paul is not in sin, as his flesh is dead. He is in complete and totall righteousness.[/b]

[b]Romans 8[/b]

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 8:1-2

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, [u]who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/u]

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus [u]hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/u]
[/color][/b]

Now Paul says there is no condemnation to who? To those who are in Christ Jesus, and he clarifies that those who are in Christ Jesus walk after the Spirit, and do not walk after the flesh. In other words, those who are in Christ Jesus are righteous, and do not sin. In accordance with the context of what we have just read.

He then continues to reemphasize the fact that he is completely free from sin, as it is completely dead.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 8:3-4

3[u]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh[/u], God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, [u]condemned sin in the flesh:[/u]

4[u]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/u]
[/color][/b]

Now Paul makes the point that the law could not make us righteous because the flesh was too weak. But he says, "God sent His son, [u]WHO CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH[/u]"

If sin was condemned in the flesh when Christ came, what does that mean to the believer? Paul is about to explain that.

It means that righteousness is [u]fulfilled[/u] in us according to verse 4. And then Paul clarifies again that we who are righteous, walk after the Spirit.

Why does he keep clarifying this? It is because Christians heads are too thick to get it the first time, he must continue to make the point over, and over, and over, until Christians get this understanding, that they have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness, and into a kingdom of light, and being alive to the Spirit, they can no longer be alive to the darkness they came from.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 8:5-6

5For they that are after the flesh [u]do mind the things of the flesh[/u]; but they that are after the Spirit [u]the things of the Spirit.[/u]

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[/color][/b]

Now Paul is making a point, either you are of the flesh, and unsaved, or you are of the Spirit, and saved. A person must come to grips with what Paul is saying, if you are carnally minded, then you will die and go to hell. If you are spiritually minded, you will live forever.

Then if we go back to what Paul prefaced this with, he says we walk after the Spirit who are righteous. So as such, the ones who are of the Spirit, (which means they are born of the spirit, which makes them of the spirit) do not mind the things of the flesh, they can't, because it is dead.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 8:7

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, [u]neither indeed can be.[/u][/color][/b]

Now Paul says to all the Christians that believe the flesh can be subdued, and brought under the power of God's law...

He says "NO, IT CANNOT BE DONE!" The flesh cannot be subject to God's law, you cannot subdue it, or control it, because even if you do manage to control every outward manifestation, that desire will still remain with you to do evil, EVERY TIME.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 8:8

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.[/color][/b]

Therefore, the flesh is an abomination in God's eyes, and cannot be seen as anything else. It cannot please God.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 8:9-10

9[u]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.[/u] Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10[u]And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/u]
[/color][/b]

Now Paul says to them, "But you are not in the flesh". How can Paul say such a thing, knowing that that desire to do evil is present in them, and that the law condemns that as carnal, and sinful? How can he say that? Well, he clarifies once again, saying in verse 10, "the body is dead because of sin" "the Spirit is alive because of righteousness" Their bodies were dead, they could not be alive to the flesh in any way, they can only be alive to the Spirit.

[b][color=CC0000]Romans 8:11-14

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead [u]shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.[/u]

12Therefore, brethren, [u]we are debtors[/u], not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, [u]ye shall die:[/u] but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, [u]ye shall live.[/u]

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[/color][/b]

Then Paul finishes it off by saying that you who are in the Spirit will have your mortal bodies quickened by Christ, so that you can live in the Spirit.

Then he again makes the case that if you are fleshly, you are not saved, and will die,(go to hell) But if you through Jesus Christ put to death the body, as all who are saved [u]HAVE[/u] done, you will live.

Paul's closing of this topic could not be more perfect, he makes the case that the flesh is dead and the Spirit is alive.

If a thing is dead, it cannot do anything, say anything, and it most certainly cannot live. So when he says that "if you live to the flesh", he can only be speaking of someone who has not been born of the Spirit. And when he says that "if you live to the Spirit you will live." He is still addressing the issue of salvation.

To undermine these arguments that Paul makes, and say that he is speaking of sanctification, is both illogical, and wrong. Paul begins with salvation in chapter 3, and does not change the topic until he is almost in the middle of chapter 8. It is all one subject, and must be interpreted within it's context and the context of the entire book. And also that of Paul's other writings.

This topic is one of much debate, and I expect almost complete resistance to it, because it is not the popular inerpretation to the passage, and any time something is not popular, it is shunned, and attacked.

[b]Lastly, if anyone reads this, and pulls out one verse, and makes an argument out of that one verse without using the context of the entire passage to interpret what is said, then I will demand of you a contextual argument, from this passage.[/b]

I also intend to do a follow up piece out of Galatians, in case this has not proved the truth to you well enough.

Brother Ben wrote alot...

If you read Romans, and use just a tiny bit of logic

Logic kills because it is of the flesh...

Ok, so by reading this, most people skip over it, but I want to take a more in-depth look at it. If you look at the part I underlined, it is obvious from this statement Paul makes, that the law speaks only to those who are under the law. That means it does not speak to those who are not under the law. Simple logic, let's move on.

This is Paul's desire...

Phillipians 3:8-11 Tyndale Bible

"Yea I think all things but loss for that excellent knowledge's sake of Christ Jesus my Lord. For whom I have counted all things loss, and do judge them but dung, that I might win Christ, and might be found in Him, NOT HAVING MY OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS which is by the law; But that which springeth of the faith which is in Christ. I mean the righteousness which cometh of God through faith in knowing Him and the virture of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His passions, that I might be conformable unto His death if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection from death."

Paul prays that he would not be found to have self righteousness as he dies to self in like manner as Christ did, so that by any means he might attain the resurrection.

Likewise, the Galatians were born of the Spirit yet they were faltering...

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

So how does one know if he is under the law or not?

Let us sharpen one another point by point through your long exposition...

Grace and peace
In Christ
Jeff

rookie Wrote:

Logic kills because it is of the flesh...

[b]God gave us logic, it is not of the flesh.[/b]

Anything used for a wrong purpose, is flesh.

If it is used from righteous intentions, for a righteous purpose, it is righteous.

Were you planning on responding, or was this your only response to what I posted?

Brother Ben,

log·ic n
1.\tthe branch of philosophy that deals with the theory of deductive and inductive arguments and aims to distinguish good from bad reasoning
2.\tany system of or an instance of reasoning and inference
3.\tsensible rational thought and argument rather than ideas that are influenced by emotion or whim
4.\tthe principles of reasoning relevant to a particular field
5.\tthe relationship between certain events, situations, or objects, and the inevitable consequences of their interaction

Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

If logic finds it's source in rational thought, it is of the flesh.

Proverbs 2:

1 My son, if you receive my words,
\tAnd treasure my commands within you,
2 \tSo that you incline your ear to wisdom,
\tAnd apply your heart to understanding;
3 \tYes, if you cry out for discernment,
\tAnd lift up your voice for understanding,
4 \tIf you seek her as silver,
\tAnd search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 \tThen you will understand the fear of the LORD,
\tAnd find the knowledge of God.
6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;
\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,
\tAnd preserves the way of His saints.
9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,
\tEquity and every good path.
10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,
\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 \tDiscretion will preserve you;
\tUnderstanding will keep you,

Understanding and wisdom comes by the word of God through the Holy Spirit. Logic is often found to be folly when we hear Him speak.

What about the rest of the first question? Do you want to discuss this idea?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ben quoted:

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The blood of Christ reconciled us to God, and "much more" we "shall be saved by His life."

What does this mean to you, "we shall be saved by His life."

In Christ
Jeff

Hey rookie, I missed the question you asked in your first post, sorry.

rookie Wrote:

So how does one know if he is under the law or not?

To be very technical, the law was given only to the Jews.

So anyone who is a gentile is not under the law that was given to the Jews.

However, Christ is the fulfillment of the law, therefore everyone is under the law of Christ, to receive Him. If they do not, then they will be judged upon that basis.
--------------------------------------------------

What does this mean to you, "we shall be saved by His life."

This portion is one I am discussing with my father right now, I may have misinterpreted that verse, so we will have to come back to it, after I finish discussing it with him. Let's move on from here, but don't forget to bring me back to it later, I may write a follow-up post correcting anything I may have said wrong.

Ben, it is so refreshing to see what you have described as not being palatable to most Grace critics, Your Romans understanding is, until more is revealed, very understanding. Thank you for being someone I can stand with in truth.

"by His life"?

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ro 5:10
Verse 10. For if. The idea in this verse is simply a repetition and enlargement of that in Ro 5:9. The apostle dwells on the thought, and places it in a new light, furnishing thus a strong confirmation of his position.
When we were enemies. The work was undertaken while we were enemies. From being enemies we were changed to friends by that work. Thus it was commenced by God; its foundation was laid while we were still hostile to it; it evinced, therefore, a determined purpose on the part of God to perform it; and he has thus given a pledge that it shall be perfected.

We were reconciled, Cmt. on Mt 5:24. We are brought to an agreement; to a state of friendship and union. We became his friends, laid aside our opposition, and embraced him as our Friend and Portion. To effect this is the great design of the plan of salvation, 2Co 5:1-20; Col 1:21; Eph 2:16. It means that there were obstacles existing on both sides to a reconciliation; and that these have been removed by the death of Christ; and that a union has thus been effected. This has been done in removing the obstacles on the part of God--by maintaining the honour of his law; showing his hatred of sin; upholding his justice, and maintaining his truth, at the same time that he pardons. Cmt. on Ro 3:26. And, on the part of man, by removing his unwillingness to' be reconciled; by subduing, changing, and sanctifying his heart; by overcoming his hatred of God, and of his law; and bringing him into submission to the government of God. So that the Christian is, in fact, reconciled to God; he is his friend; he is pleased with his law, his character, and his plan of salvation. And all this has been accomplished by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus as an offering in our place.

Much more. It is much more to be expected; there are still stronger and more striking considerations to show it.

By his life. We were reconciled by his death. Death may include possibly his low, humble, and suffering condition. Death has the appearance of great feebleness; the death of Christ had the appearance of the defeat of his plans. His enemies triumphed and rejoiced over him on the cross, and in the tomb. Yet the effect of this feeble, low, and humiliating state was to reconcile us to God. If in this state--when humble, despised, dying, dead--he had power to accomplish so great a work as to reconcile us to God, how much more may we expect that he will be able to keep us now that he is a living, exalted, and triumphant Redeemer! If his fainting powers in dying were such as to reconcile us, how much more shall his full, vigorous powers, as an exalted Redeemer, be sufficient to keep and save us! This argument is but an expansion of what the Saviour himself said, Joh 14:19, "Because I live, ye shall live also."

His life is not our life and by it we live, already seated in heavenly places with Him.

"Christ in you the Hope of Glory"

In Christ: PHillip

Brother Ben wrote:

To be very technical, the law was given only to the Jews.

So anyone who is a gentile is not under the law that was given to the Jews.

However, Christ is the fulfillment of the law, therefore everyone is under the law of Christ, to receive Him. If they do not, then they will be judged upon that basis.

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Does this command of God not pretain to all in each generation?

In Christ
jeff

rookie Wrote:

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Does this command of God not pretain to all in each generation?

The words and commandments of Christ have meaning to everyone, everywhere. But we are discussing the law, which was given only to the Jews. As I said before, everyone is under the law of Christ, as he is the fulfillment of the law.

He made it so that anyone could be saved, and by doing so, we are now under His government and His law. To perform whatever it is that He tells us to.

And by receiving Him, and believing in Him, we also are made partakers of this fulfillment of the law. We ourselves are dead, but we live in His life, which is the fulfillment of the law.

Brother Ben wrote:

The words and commandments of Christ have meaning to everyone, everywhere. But we are discussing the law, which was given only to the Jews. As I said before, everyone is under the law of Christ, as he is the fulfillment of the law.

I am sorry, you misunderstood me. I am saying that the law that is spiritual, the law that Paul speaks of in Romans 7, can be summed up in the words of what Jesus told the scribe who also was speaking of the law...here is another example...

Luke 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

Luke 10:26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”

Luke 10:27 So he answered and said, ““You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Luke 10:28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

Please remember that the law that was given on Mount Sinai was given as a means to lead one to Christ...

In just the first 4 chapters of Leviticus, we find how God desires man to worship Him in the burnt offerings.

Listen to how this scribe understood the burnt offering...

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Mark 12:32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

In Christ
Jeff

The Law did not lead us to Christ but to the NEED of Christ for an exceeding sinful person that I was. The Law made sin exceeding sinful and the need of a Savior.

Romans 7:12-14 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

The Law did not lead us to Christ but to the NEED of Christ for an exceeding sinful person that I was. The Law made sin exceeding sinful and the need of a Savior.

Gal 3

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Paul wrote that the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ.

The scribe understood that the burnt offerings were meant to teach one that he must love God and man.

This is the essence of the law...

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Mark 12:32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

This man understood what the law required...

In Christ
Jeff

BenWilliams wrote:
The words and commandments of Christ have meaning to everyone, everywhere. But we are discussing the law, which was given only to the Jews. As I said before, everyone is under the law of Christ, as he is the fulfillment of the law.

He made it so that anyone could be saved, and by doing so, we are now under His government and His law. To perform whatever it is that He tells us to.

And by receiving Him, and believing in Him, we also are made partakers of this fulfillment of the law. We ourselves are dead, but we live in His life, which is the fulfillment of the law.

Ben,

Your study of Roman's so far has been deeply felt by me, so much so, that I have a question, and although I use the words above as my starting point, I need some clarification overall of Paul's meaning in all of Roman's.

In all of the commentaries on Romans that I have read, and the teaching I have had, gives me the overall impression that although we are dead to sin, yet our bodies, including our minds, habits, reactions, coerce us to be sinning even when we don't want to, and that only by Chist's atonement for all our sins, past, present, and future, are we considered righteous through Him.

Thus, in God's sight, we are clean if we are in Christ, no matter how badly we follow Him if we genuinely seek to stay alive in Him, but in our own eyes, we still see ourselves as sinning, and without the power to stop. Also, Paul made it very plain that the righteousness in Christ that saves us gives us grace, but we are not to abuse that grace by seeking to sin.

Now my question based on my understanding of what you have written, and what I have read and studied:

Does grace through our righteousness in Christ cover what our 'dead' body/mind/carnal person does, even without further repentence in the spiritual person we are in Christ?

In Christ,

Forrest

Webrev Wrote:

Your study of Roman's so far has been deeply felt by me, so much so, that I have a question, and although I use the words above as my starting point, I need some clarification overall of Paul's meaning in all of Roman's.

In all of the commentaries on Romans that I have read, and the teaching I have had, gives me the overall impression that although we are dead to sin, yet our bodies, including our minds, habits, reactions, coerce us to be sinning even when we don't want to, and that only by Chist's atonement for all our sins, past, present, and future, are we considered righteous through Him.

Thus, in God's sight, we are clean if we are in Christ, no matter how badly we follow Him if we genuinely seek to stay alive in Him, but in our own eyes, we still see ourselves as sinning, and without the power to stop. Also, Paul made it very plain that the righteousness in Christ that saves us gives us grace, but we are not to abuse that grace by seeking to sin.

Now my question based on my understanding of what you have written, and what I have read and studied:

Does grace through our righteousness in Christ cover what our 'dead' body/mind/carnal person does, even without further repentence in the spiritual person we are in Christ?

I believe Paul answers this question in Romans, allow me to attempt a good explanation.

Pauls says that when Christ died, he put to death the flesh, and all of the works of the flesh. We know that the flesh cannot be subject to God because it is wicked completely. That is why Christ put it to death. Notice that the flesh being put to death is a past tense situation, it has already happened.

Knowing that our flesh and it's works were put to death, how can we continue repenting for something that was dealt with once for all?

Let me put it this way, if you have an uncle that robbed a bank, and then he was sent to the electric chair, and executed for it, can you be held responsible for anything that that uncle did while he was alive?

Of course not, no one would or could legally hold you responsible for what a dead part of your ancestory did.

The bank is not going to require you to pay what he owed, because he is dead, so the debt is legally settled.

So what are you repenting of if your flesh sins? Are you repenting of something that has been repented of already at salvation? Why would you continue to repent about something that you are already forgiven for?

What it really comes down to is this, what do you believe Christ forgave you of? Did he forgive only what you did before you were saved? Or did He forgive every sin, past present and future?

Now having said that, not only did he forgive those sins, but He also put them to death when He condemned sin in the flesh.
--------------------------------------------------

Now, having said all that, we are taught through the scriptures that we are to avoid sin. To not partake in it, why? Because it draws us away from God, so we excercise our spirit, and we do not partake in what is sin done by our flesh. This is what sanctification is all about.

One thing that many people fail to realize is that Paul was blameless according to the law, and when he was saved, he did not suddenly start doing things contrary to the disciplines he had practiced his whole life.

So when he talks about doing the things he doesn't want to do, I believe he is referring to his thoughts, and that desire to do evil.

Sorry to be long winded, but there is so much confusion on these issues that they have become difficult to explain.

Very simply, sin has been forgiven, and put to death, so do we need forgiveness again or not?

If sin is dead, is it alive?

If forgiveness for all things has been given, is it not good enough to forgive all things the first time?

Is it partial, or full?

Ben, do you repent of your sins?

I Wrote:

Your study of Roman's so far has been deeply felt by me, so much so, that I have a question, and although I use the words above as my starting point, I need some clarification overall of Paul's meaning in all of Roman's....

Does grace through our righteousness in Christ cover what our 'dead' body/mind/carnal person does, even without further repentence in the spiritual person we are in Christ?

Ben Williams said:

I believe Paul answers this question in Romans, allow me to attempt a good explanation...So what are you repenting of if your flesh sins? Are you repenting of something that has been repented of already at salvation? Why would you continue to repent about something that you are already forgiven for?

What it really comes down to is this, what do you believe Christ forgave you of? Did he forgive only what you did before you were saved? Or did He forgive every sin, past present and future?

Now having said that, not only did he forgive those sins, but He also put them to death when He condemned sin in the flesh.
--------------------------------------------------
Very simply, sin has been forgiven, and put to death, so do we need forgiveness again or not?

If sin is dead, is it alive?

If forgiveness for all things has been given, is it not good enough to forgive all things the first time?

Is it partial, or full?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ben, when the Holy Spirit convicts me of sin, I always do apologize to God, and ask for help to go the right way. This leaves me feeling clean, but my question was really not for me, but for my newly saved father, a babe in Christ at 82, Praise God!

Because he is my father, and I am not his pastor, and he will not go to church - hates the inbuilt hypocrisy he saw as a youngster when he was baptized, but never really came to know Christ - I have been watching the Holy Spirit teaching my Dad, and it is fascinating to watch.

I would not dare to intrude on his privacy to ask him if he ever feels convicted of sin, and if so, what does he do about it. I am his daughter, and although not being under his authority, he also cannot be under mine, either as father or as a man.

I don't preach to my Dad. If he reads my site, that is his business, and I pray explains things he doesn't ask about. When he is concerned about something, he does ask, and I answer.

After a year or so of knowing that he had "said the prayer" as he put it, he has become more open with me, and we shared communion for the first time at Easter dinner. But frankly, I do not want to place any burden on him that the Holy Spirit does not, yet as his Evangelist daughter, I cannot help but worry over his progress.

I am grateful merely that the Lord answered my prayers to call my dad; that my dad told me of his conversion, which answered another of my prayers; and now, that if I will say the words of communion at Easter (and hopefully more often in future), my Dad is willing to amen them.

He is so untaught and unseeking that he doesn't even know the bible stories, nor will he yet read the Bible, but I have turned him over to God now that I know that he is safe, and that the Holy Spirit will tell him what he must do, through me, or the Bible.

My prediliction for asking God to forgive me each morning of the sins I feel are impeding my progress, before I take communion, because I want to feel as clean as possible before my morning devotions and communion, are simply what I feel led to do.

It's not a feeling of guilt. Guilt feelings are a lie of the devil. But conviction by the Holy Spirit that I am doing wrong...that seems to ask for repentence.

But just as I don't test the Lord on purpose if I can help it, I don't want to lead, even by example, my dad, or anyone else, to anything that is not ordained of God.

I draw your attention, therefore, to the following quotes, and ask your opinion:

[color=CC0000]1 John 2

1. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12. I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13. I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
15. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
[/color]

You have said that we are dead to sin. Yet if we sin, and the Holy Spirit presses us to deal with a matter of a sin, particularly of holiness of the mind, should we not repent?

Jesus in Revelation 3:7-13 seems to be telling us to press on, strive on, in the faith. Is this not speaking of repentence? Is faith not the fruit of repentence?

[color=CC0000]Revelation 3:7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/color]

Now, please be aware that I am not just worried about salvation, but victory in life. Yet John and Jesus in Revelation to John seem to imply that ever striving onward is part of our growth in Jesus. I do know that my father cannot be Laodicean. He's too young in Christ to even know what that means, and as a babe in Christ, I know he is safe for salvation, at least for the time being.

I worry about the rapture, which seems to be a special gift for those that watch and pray to be worthy of being caught away, which worthiness and righteousness is only through Christ.

My concern is that lack of repentence is Laodicean.

Will you give me your opinion based on these contexts?

Blessings,

Forrest

Jeff wrote:

"""
Gal 3

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Paul wrote that the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ.

The scribe understood that the burnt offerings were meant to teach one that he must love God and man.

This is the essence of the law...

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Mark 12:32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

This man understood what the law required...

In Christ
Jeff"""

This man could not do it either. Christ is the only One that did it and it is by His life that we can do it after rebirth unto a new creature.

If "this man" could do it Christ would not have need of the suffering for "this man" on the Cross. Mark 12:38-40 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

The Law brought us to Christ if you like. But it was the conviction of the Holy Spirit of sin that gave us to believe that Jesus Christ is the Holy One of God, His Son, and we need His as our Savior. The Law made sin exceeding sinful and led by the Holy Spirit we see the need of Christ in our new birth to break the bonds of Satan and sin and death, unto a new life in Christ. It is not His life we life in. Our salvation is a Person, The whole bucket of Grace, Jesus Chrsit.

How could any man come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit convict him of sin? Romans 7:13-14 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Jhn 16:8 And when He is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

How do we know now what is the things He wanted to say and could not? Because we have the Holy Spirit of Promise not just with us but in us forever. John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Not speaking of Himself the Holy Spirit has shown this Christ in our hearts, the wonderful mystery of "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

Romans 7:22-25 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Pauls says that when Christ died, he put to death the flesh, and all of the works of the flesh. We know that the flesh cannot be subject to God because it is wicked completely.

Where does Paul say this?

In Christ,
Blake

With Strong's numbers:

Jhn 5:21 For 1063 as 5618 the Father 3962 raiseth up 1453 the dead 3498, and 2532 quickeneth 2227 [them]; even 2532 so 3779 the Son 5207 quickeneth 2227 whom 3739 he will 2309 .

Jhn 6:63 It is 2076 the spirit 4151 that quickeneth 2227 ; the flesh 4561 3756 profiteth 5623 nothing 3762: the words 4487 that 3739 I 1473 speak 2980 unto you 5213, [they] are 2076 spirit 4151, and 2532 [they] are 2076 life 2222.

Rom 4:17 (As 2531 it is written 1125 , 3754 I have made 5087 thee 4571 a father 3962 of many 4183 nations 1484,) before 2713 him whom 3739 he believed 4100 , [even] God 2316, who quickeneth 2227 the dead 3498, and 2532 calleth 2564 those things which be 5607 not 3361 as though 5613 they were 5607 .

Rom 8:11 But 1161 if 1487 the Spirit 4151 of him that raised up 1453 Jesus 2424 from 1537 the dead 3498 dwell 3611 in 1722 you 5213, he that raised up 1453 Christ 5547 from 1537 the dead 3498 shall 2227 0 also 2532 quicken 2227 your 5216 mortal 2349 bodies 4983 by 1223 his 846 Spirit 4151 that dwelleth 1774 1774 in 1722 you 5213.

1Cr 15:22 For 1063 as 5618 in 1722 Adam 76 all 3956 die 599 , even 2532 so 3779 in 1722 Christ 5547 shall 2227 0 all 3956 be made alive 2227 .

1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool 878, that which 3739 thou 4771 sowest 4687 is 2227 0 not 3756 quickened 2227 , except 3362 it die 599 :

1Cr 15:45 And 2532 so 3779 it is written 1125 , The first 4413 man 444 Adam 76 was made 1096 1519 a living 2198 soul 5590; the last 2078 Adam 76 [was made] 1519 a quickening 2227 spirit 4151.

2Cr 3:6 Who 3739 also 2532 hath made 2427 0 us 2248 able 2427 ministers 1249 of the new 2537 testament 1242; not 3756 of the letter 1121, but 235 of the spirit 4151: for 1063 the letter 1121 killeth 615 , but 1161 the spirit 4151 giveth life 2227 .

Gal 3:21 [Is] the law 3551 then 3767 against 2596 the promises 1860 of God 2316? God forbid 3361 1096 : for 1063 if 1487 there had been 1325 0 a law 3551 given 1325 which 3588 could 1410 have given life 2227 , verily 3689 righteousness 1343 should 302 have been 2258 by 1537 the law 3551.

1Ti 6:13 I give 3853 0 thee 4671 charge 3853 in the sight 1799 of God 2316, who 3588 quickeneth 2227 all things 3956, and 2532 [before] Christ 5547 Jesus 2424, who 3588 before 1909 Pontius 4194 Pilate 4091 witnessed 3140 a good 2570 confession 3671;

1Pe 3:18 For 3754 Christ 5547 also 2532 hath once 530 suffered 3958 for 4012 sins 266, the just 1342 for 5228 the unjust 94, that 2443 he might bring 4317 us 2248 to God 2316, being put to death 2289 3303 in the flesh 4561, but 1161 quickened 2227 by the Spirit 4151:

Adam's soul, Satan's spirit = death.
Adam's soul, Christ's Spirit = Life

Adam a living soul, Christ a quickening Spirit.

All those that live, living souls and satan's spirit. All those that believe, living souls and Christ's quickening Spirit unto eternal life in Christ Jesus. The flesh is even quickened to contain this Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit and God the Father Himself by the Seed (Sperma) of God, Jesus Christ. For we are now the "Temple of the Holy Spirit. When it is planted in the ground it will bring forth fruit, that a new body like Jesus Christ.

Flesh and bone, not blood, the new life of the flesh is from the Tree of Life, Jesus Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

This man could not do it either. Christ is the only One that did it and it is by His life that we can do it after rebirth unto a new creature.

This is not the focus of what is being discussed here. We are seeking to understand that the law is spiritual. Do you agree with Paul?

In Christ
Jeff

Do none of you ever feel the Holy Spirit correcting you, and apologize, and then ask for help to do better?

Is this not repentence?

The Holy Spirit, the last time I looked, was still God!

Blessings,

Forrest

Webrev Wrote:

Ben, when the Holy Spirit convicts me of sin, I always do apologize to God, and ask for help to go the right way. This leaves me feeling clean, but my question was really not for me, but for my newly saved father, a babe in Christ at 82, Praise God!

Hey Forrest, first I want to say that I don't believe everything I stated in my dissertation to be 100% accurate, I haven't studied this stuff for near as long as other people, and I'm sure that I have stated some things that may be a little off.

Secondly, as this is a topic of much disagreement, it is a very difficult one, and is in direct opposistion to what most churches out there teach. Every time it is brought up it receives much criticism. But nevertheless, I press on because I believe it to be true, no one can offer arguments so far that hold enough water for me to reconsider.
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That said, we must discuss the difference between the spirit and the flesh, and also of conviction from the Holy Spirit.

The first thing about all of this that we must understand is that the flesh is an abomination to God, it cannot dwell in his presence, it is completely and utterly hated by God.

So God had to judge the flesh because it was unrighteous, and abominable. When He judged it, He put it to death, and all of the works that it had, is, and will produce.

Now, based off of what Paul writes, I believe he makes a clear distinction that the spirit is righteous, and the flesh is wicked.

If the flesh is totally wicked, and the spirit is totally righteous, if one of them dies, then the one remaining is the only one alive.

So if Christ put to death the flesh and all it's works, then the only thing remaining in a believer is the spirit, which is righteous.
--------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry Forrest, something came up, and I have to go, but I will come back and finish discussing this, I want to finish the second half of what I am writing, about the Holy Spirit, and conviction, and all that stuff.

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you on the rest of that post webrev, I have been pretty busy, I intend to get back to you on it still. But it may be a few days.

dorcas wrote:

Hi Ben

The first thing about all of this that we must understand is that the flesh is an abomination to God, it cannot dwell in his presence, it is completely and utterly hated by God.

So God had to judge the flesh because it was unrighteous, and abominable. When He judged it, He put it to death, and all of the works that it had, is, and will produce.

Now, based off of what Paul writes, I believe he makes a clear distinction that the spirit is righteous, and the flesh is wicked.

If the flesh is totally wicked, and the spirit is totally righteous, if one of them dies, then the one remaining is the only one alive.

So if Christ put to death the flesh and all it's works, then the only thing remaining in a believer is the spirit, which is righteous...

I know that UWR is very able to reply for herself, but I want to stop you right there, because this is an extrapolation of what the Bible [i]does[/i] say.

PLEASE (yes, I'm raising my voice just slightly) remember that God created man in His image, and He gave us fleshly bodies for a reason. Think about it. And HE chose that a Man should become the total solution to what had gone wrong in the flesh - which was spiritual..... sin ..... not the flesh itself.

It was 'our old man' who was put to death, not the flesh. I think you need to read most of Romans more carefully, to see that it is book about the [u]heart attitudes[/u] which dictate the actions we find ourselves (that is, our bodies) doing [u]or[/u] [i]not[/i] doing.

Also, as we seek the help of the Holy Spirit to quench those desires and actions which do not please God, our bodies begin to be able please Him.

Romans 6:
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Ben,

I'm always able to wait for a considered answer.

Dorcas,

Thank you!

You touched on exactly what I was pointing to, that repentence is an 180 degree turn away from sin, and toward righteousness, and that the Holy Spirit is continually leading us toward that righteousness.

I am not talking about a touchy feely guilt response, but the feeling of a touch from the Holy Spirit correcting me, and my response to it.

In the continuous communication with the Spirit within me, how can I not wish to turn away from the sin, at least in my heart, hoping that my body will follow when I have practiced turning away enough?

Why else the correction of the Holy Spirit, and the teaching He gives us?

Blessings to you both,

Forrest

Hey Forrest, I'm back. I am including the first part of what I wrote for clarity's sake. I hope to answer your question with a good answer that will make some sense.

--------------------------------------------------
That said, we must discuss the difference between the spirit and the flesh, and also of conviction from the Holy Spirit.

The first thing about all of this that we must understand is that the flesh is an abomination to God, it cannot dwell in his presence, it is completely and utterly hated by God.

So God had to judge the flesh because it was unrighteous, and abominable. When He judged it, He put it to death, and all of the works that it had, is, and will produce.

Now, based off of what Paul writes, I believe he makes a clear distinction that the spirit is righteous, and the flesh is wicked.

If the flesh is totally wicked, and the spirit is totally righteous, if one of them dies, then the one remaining is the only one alive.

So if Christ put to death the flesh and all it's works, then the only thing remaining in a believer is the spirit, which is righteous.
--------------------------------------------------

Ok, now in reference to the issue you brought up concerning guilt, or rather more potently conviction of the Holy Spirit concerning sin.

When a person commits sin, as I have already discussed, it is not them(their spirit) that commits the sin, it is the flesh.

Now Paul tells us that Christ has quickened our mortal bodies so that we are not in bondage to the patterns of sin.

We then walk out the path of sanctification, which is a process that the Holy Spirit works in us to change us so that we are more like Christ.

So when we sin with the flesh, the Holy Spirit convicts us, showing us not to walk in that way, and showing us paths of righteousness that we are to walk in.

So, to sum it up, when we feel that conviction from the Holy Spirit, it is one that says subdue your sin, and have dominion over it.

Now let me clarify, because much of this is confusing. We must remember that our flesh is dead, no sin is imputed to us, and our spirit cannot commit sin, however, our mortal bodies are still walking in the paths that the flesh walked, even though the flesh has been put to death. So now, in this state, the Spirit teaches us to control our mortal bodies, and does so by conviction. This is the process of sanctification.

Now, we repent when we have failed to obey the convictions of the Holy Spirit, because any conviction, is the same as a command. And we are commanded to obey the Lord.

[b]I hope this helps to clarify everything, if not, please ask your questions, and I will readily provide any answers you want.[/b]

BenWilliams wrote:
Hey Forrest, I'm back. I am including the first part of what I wrote for clarity's sake. I hope to answer your question with a good answer that will make some sense...So, to sum it up, when we feel that conviction from the Holy Spirit, it is one that says subdue your sin, and have dominion over it.

Now let me clarify, because much of this is confusing. We must remember that our flesh is dead, no sin is imputed to us, and our spirit cannot commit sin, however, our mortal bodies are still walking in the paths that the flesh walked, even though the flesh has been put to death. So now, in this state, the Spirit teaches us to control our mortal bodies, and does so by conviction. This is the process of sanctification.

Now, we repent when we have failed to obey the convictions of the Holy Spirit, because any conviction, is the same as a command. And we are commanded to obey the Lord.

[b]I hope this helps to clarify everything, if not, please ask your questions, and I will readily provide any answers you want.[/b]

Yes, Indeed! Very clear and answered my question.

Thank you for the time.

Blessings,

Forrest