Prevenient Grace

I submit the following hoping that all of us grow in our knowledge of God and His amazing work in salvation. I state for the record, I am not a hyper-Calvinist. I affirm that man is responsible for his actions and that God is sovereign in salvation.

The following is from David Kirkwood's article entitled The Five Points of Calvinism Considered

Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace
Let us first consider points one and four of Calvinism’s TULIP: Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace. Without a doubt they are intrinsically linked, and thus it is almost impossible to consider one without mentioning the other. (Moreover, the other three points are built upon these pillars, and if these fall, the others must follow.)
All Christians rightly maintain that humanity is sinful by nature, born with a propensity to sin. This fact is easily proved from Scripture (not to mention human experience). In Romans 3:9-12, for example, Paul records a sampling of God’s assessment of sinful humanity as found in various Psalms: “There is none righteous, not even one…there is none who seeks for God…there is none who does good.” Paul writes in Ephesians 2:1, 3 that we were “dead in [our] trespasses and sins….by nature children of wrath.” Unregenerate people are “slaves to sin” (Rom. 6:6) and are “held captive” by Satan “to do his will” (2 Tim. 2:26).

Clearly, the Bible affirms that, in general, humanity is very corrupt and sinful. In fact, unless God did something to get our attention and draw us to Him, we would never turn from our sins. Moreover, no person can escape his slavery to sin apart from God’s gracious help. We thus affirm man’s depravity, God’s prevenient grace (i.e., a grace shown by God that precedes regeneration) and His enabling grace that empowers us to live holy lives once we are born again.

My response to Prevenient Grace:

David begins by explaining his views of Soteriology. I am glad to see that he affirms that man would never turn from his sins unless God did something first to get our attention and draw us to Him. I am also pleased to see he agrees that no man can escape his slavery to sin apart from God’s gracious help. David then tells us that he affirms man depravity and God’s prevenient grace. He provides a definition of prevenient grace as follows—grace shown by God that precedes regeneration.
A. W. Tozer in The Pursuit of God says,

“Christian theology teaches the doctrine of prevenient grace, which briefly stated means this, that before a man can seek God, God must first have sought the man. Before a sinful man can think a right thought of God, there must have been a work of enlightenment done within him; imperfect it may be, but a true work nonetheless, and the secret cause of all desiring and seeking and praying which may follow.
We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. 'No man can come to me,' said our Lord, 'except the Father which hath sent me draw him,' and it is by this very prevenient drawing that God takes from us every vestige of credit for he act of coming. The impulse to pursue God originates with God, but the outworking of that impulse is our following hard after Him; and all the time we are pursuing Him we are already in His hand: 'Thy right hand upholdeth me.' In this divine 'upholding' and human 'following' there is no contradiction. All is of God, for as von Hugel teaches, God is always previous.
In practice, however, (that is, where God's previous working meets man's present response) man must pursue God. On our part there must be positive reciprocation if this secret drawing of God is to eventuate in identifiable experience of the Divine. In the warm language of personal feeling this is stated in the Forty-second Psalm: 'As the hart panteth after the waterbrooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?' This is deep calling unto deep, and the longing heart will understand it.” (Chapter 1)

Tozer and David Kirkwood agree that prevenient grace is divine grace that enables man to seek after God. They both agree that after receiving the prevenient grace man can either choose to follow Christ or choose not to follow Christ, the choice belongs to the man. But is Prevenient Grace biblical? Notice what Tozer said about prevenient grace earlier, “[God] has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit.”

Notice that he says God spurs us but doesn’t ensure that we will pursue. Then he uses John 6:44 as an example: “‘No man can come to me,' said our Lord, 'except the Father which hath sent me draw him,'”. Then Tozer says “man must pursue God. On our part there must be positive reciprocation if the secret drawing of God is to eventuate in identifiable experience of the Divine.”

Tozer agrees with Kirkwood in that prevenient grace is resistible by man. Man must respond in faith to acquire the salvation and if man does not respond in faith then he will not acquire the salvation.
Tozer and Kirkwood agree that God can draw a man to Jesus and that man can reject the drawing of God. This is very important because the doctrine of prevenient Grace stands or falls upon John 6:44—which Tozer uses this as a proof text.

Let’s look at John 6:44 in its entirety, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (KJV). What does John 6:44 tell us? The word Him is used twice in this verse. Does 'Him' refer to the same group of people in both instances? If you say 'No, it doesn't' then you have inserted something into the text that does not belong, but if you say ‘Yes, it does.’ Then you have admitted that the same group of people who are drawn by God to Jesus are the same group of people who are raised up at the last day by Jesus. If both instances of 'Him' refer to the same group of people then every single person who is drawn to Jesus by God will be raised up at the last day and that no one who is drawn will not be raised at the last day. Substitute a name into the verse and see what if this holds true, “Johnny cannot come to Jesus unless the Father which hath sent Jesus calls Johnny; and Jesus will raise Johnny up at the last day.” Do you see how the second part of the verse explicitly states that the person will be raised because they were drawn?

This presents a problem for those who believe in prevenient grace. If Jesus says that He will raise up all who are drawn by God then prevenient grace is false because prevenient grace says that a person can be drawn by God and not raised up at the last day. I submit to you that prevenient grace is not biblical.

Brother Jay writes:

Tozer and David Kirkwood agree that prevenient grace is divine grace that enables man to seek after God.

Scripture points to this act by God...

Job 33

14 \tFor God may speak in one way, or in another,
\tYet man does not perceive it.
15 \tIn a dream, in a vision of the night,
\tWhen deep sleep falls upon men,
\tWhile slumbering on their beds,
16 \tThen He opens the ears of men,
\tAnd seals their instruction.
17 \tIn order to turn man from his deed,
\tAnd conceal pride from man,
18 \tHe keeps back his soul from the Pit,
\tAnd his life from perishing by the sword.
19 \t“Man is also chastened with pain on his bed,
\tAnd with strong pain in many of his bones,
20 \tSo that his life abhors bread,
\tAnd his soul succulent food.
21 \tHis flesh wastes away from sight,
\tAnd his bones stick out which once were not seen.
22 \tYes, his soul draws near the Pit,
\tAnd his life to the executioners.
23 \t“If there is a messenger for him,
\tA mediator, one among a thousand,
\tTo show man His uprightness,
24 \tThen He is gracious to him, and says,
\t“Deliver him from going down to the Pit;
\tI have found a ransom’;
25 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,
\tHe shall return to the days of his youth.
26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
\tHe shall see His face with joy,
\tFor He restores to man His righteousness.
27 \tThen he looks at men and says,
\t“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
\tAnd it did not profit me.’
28 \tHe will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
\tAnd his life shall see the light.
29 \t“Behold, God works all these things,
\tTwice, in fact, three times with a man,
30 \tTo bring back his soul from the Pit,
\tThat he may be enlightened with the light of life.

Also in Proverbs 1

20 \tWisdom calls aloud outside;
\tShe raises her voice in the open squares.
21 \tShe cries out in the chief concourses,
\tAt the openings of the gates in the city
\tShe speaks her words:
22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.
23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (KJV). What does John 6:44 tell us?

I see this verse as meaning that all men are depraved...Romans 3. And only because the Father sends His Spirit out:

20 \tWisdom calls aloud outside;
\tShe raises her voice in the open squares.
21 \tShe cries out in the chief concourses,
\tAt the openings of the gates in the city
\tShe speaks her words:

that men are given the opportunity to be reconciled to the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit.

This presents a problem for those who believe in prevenient grace. If Jesus says that He will raise up all who are drawn by God then prevenient grace is false because prevenient grace says that a person can be drawn by God and not raised up at the last day.

There is no problem other than the fact that each man then is given a choice to obey or continue in unbelief.

Disobedience:

24 \tBecause I have called and you refused,
\tI have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 \tBecause you disdained all my counsel,
\tAnd would have none of my rebuke,
26 \tI also will laugh at your calamity;
\tI will mock when your terror comes,
27 \tWhen your terror comes like a storm,
\tAnd your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
\tWhen distress and anguish come upon you.
28 \t“Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
\tThey will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29 \tBecause they hated knowledge
\tAnd did not choose the fear of the LORD,

Or obedience:

33 \tBut whoever listens to me will dwell safely,
\tAnd will be secure, without fear of evil.”

In Christ
Jeff

by JaySaved on 2007/3/9 4:03:48
I submit to you that prevenient grace is not biblical.

The real problem in the Reformed scheme of things is that they generally put the sovereign acts of regeneration right at the very beginning of everything. This fits with their conviction of unconditional election and particular redemption but I can't accept it.

If my neighbour prays for her sick daughter and the daughter get well am I to say that this was not the grace of God to her. Does God only answer the prayers of the regenerate? If he does answer the prayer of the unregenerate is that not grace? It is not 'saving grace' but surely it is grace and if it is grace that comes before 'saving grace' why not call it 'prevenient grace'?

Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you..." (ESV)

Jeremiah 31:3: "...I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." (KJV)

Ezekiel 34:11, 16: "For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out...I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak..." (ESV)

Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

John 6:44: "No man can come unto me, unless the Father who hath sent me, draw him..."

Romans 2:4: "...the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance..."

Philippians 2:12-13: "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God that worketh in you according to his good pleasure, both to will and to do."

1 John 4:19: "We love him, because he first loved us."

Without God nothing would exist. Without God man would still be dust. Without God no man would choose Christ. Man has shown he would not choose Christ. First, man chose to serve the devil. All has been downhill for man after that. The only uplifting thing we have is Christ and His Grace through His Faith. What has man done to lift himself out of Satan's grasp on him since the garden? Nothing. What has God done to lift man our of, "you will surely die"? Everything. How can man say that God has not done everything to even allow any man to chose God by believing in Jesus Christ and He is the Son of the Living God Who gave Him for us.

Grace is Grace, no matter what anyone says. It is God that has chosen all that are saved and all that are not saved. No person would choose to be saved, all men have chosen to be not saved. With Grace and God and Christ and the Holy Spirit none would, can or ever will be saved. We are in Christ because of God.

Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? [or] shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake [itself] against them that lift it up, [or] as if the staff should lift up [itself, as if it were] no wood.

Ephesians 2:7-10 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

1Cr 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

2Cr 10:17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Call it what you want, but if it was not for God, "IT" would not be.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Grace is Grace, no matter what anyone says. It is God that has chosen all that are saved and all that are not saved. No person would choose to be saved, all men have chosen to be not saved. With Grace and God and Christ and the Holy Spirit none would, can or ever will be saved. We are in Christ because of God.

I noticed you used Jeremiah as an example of the power of God's grace. How is it that Jeremiah knew God?

In Christ
Jeff

Rookie,

Thank you! You clarified in a few paragraphs what I have been trying to say to Jaysaved for what seems to be months!

Prevenient grace is what does make sense to me, because God must prepare us to even hear His invitation through Christ. Then we say Yes, or No.

If Yes, then the Holy Spirit is implanted in us, and we grow in God, particularly if we work as hard as we, as humans, can.

If no, then it's no, until the person who says no changes his mind because God keeps trying to persuade him, or until he is so evil as to be totally unregenerate.

Thank you for say what I have been trying to say. I'm not insane. I'm just not a Calvinist of any kind.

Many blessings to you,

Sorry, Jaysaved, but I agree with Kirkwood and Tozer.

You see, I don't want to say no to God. I just want the ability.

Then after I have said Yes, I am in the hands of the Holy Spirit until I die, ever growing, ever reaching for a greater closeness with God.

For me, the topic is now closed.

God bless you, and may your walk continue to be better than your belief system.

I offer this for consideration from a brother named [url=http://www.eternalsecurity.us/prevenient_grace.htm]Jeff Paton[/url].

What exactly is meant by prevenient grace? To use more modern terminology, it is a preventing grace. The word prevent means, literally, come before (L. prae, before+venire, vent-, come). If a kindly person arrives before you, he gets things in pleasant readiness; hence the Common Prayer Book beseeches: "Prevent us, O Lord, in all our doings." It is the grace that comes before. Before what? Before every thing we do. Many other terms can be used to describe this work of God such as, Divine initiative, preceding grace, and preparatory grace. This grace does not begin at salvation and end there in a finished stroke. God is at work in everyone with the exception of the one who rejects the grace that is offered. In answer to the question, "does the grace of God work in the elect or with them? Does it require a concurrent action of mans will?" Blunt’s Doctrinal and Historical Theology says, "Our present wording of the Tenth Article of Religion...is based on those Scriptures which, while they speak of God’s working in us, require at the same time the work of man, thus, "preventing us that we may have a good will, working with us when we have that good will." Work, for God works with you, and both the will and the work are God’s (2 Pet. 1:10; Heb. 12:15; 1 Jn. 3:24). And all the varied precepts of Scripture given to those who have received the grace of God show the same, that we are to work because God worketh in us."

Praise God, He is the initiator...

“Johnny cannot come to Jesus unless the Father which hath sent Jesus calls Johnny; and Jesus will raise Johnny up at the last day.” Do you see how the second part of the verse explicitly states that the person will be raised because they were drawn?

This presents a problem for those who believe in prevenient grace. If Jesus says that He will raise up all who are drawn by God then prevenient grace is false because prevenient grace says that a person can be drawn by God and not raised up at the last day. I submit to you that prevenient grace is not biblical.

I think we need to consider that the text seems to suggest clearly that the individual that was drawn did in fact 'come'. I think the point of the passage is to demonstrate that when a person comes to Christ it happened as a result of God first drawing them. The text is too limited to draw too many conclusions. But I think the assumption from the beginning is that the person did 'come' and that their coming was initiated by God and because they responded rightly to God they will be raised up on that day.

Moreover, we have to contend with the fact that many are called but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14). Yet even fewer, perhaps, are called, chosen and faithful (Revelation 17:14). Faithfulness is what is required of a steward (I Cor. 4:2). Notice the passage did not say perfection- but faithfulness. So our right response to God is the means by which we have access into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2). God initiates contact and we respond. If we respond rightly it is faith, if we do not it is unbelief. Faith and obedience are linked (Romans 1:5, 16:26). Obedience is something I must do. God cannot do it for me. He says "choose ye this day..." It is our choice to respond to Him rightly or not. The one is faith the other is unbelief.

Taken in its most extreme form this would mean that there is no grace of God available for the unregenerate... but everything that God does for his creation stems from his grace.

But we both know that God does show grace to the unregenerate. For everything they have is a gift from God. It is God who brings sunshine and rain. I refer to this as Common Grace.
EDIT: If you wish to call this prevenient grace then feel free, but this grace does not bring a person to a saving knowledge of Christ or enlighten the Will.

The real problem in the Reformed scheme of things is that they generally put the sovereign acts of regeneration right at the very beginning of everything. This fits with their conviction of unconditional election and particular redemption but I can't accept it.

If my neighbour prays for her sick daughter and the daughter get well am I to say that this was not the grace of God to her. Does God only answer the prayers of the regenerate? If he does answer the prayer of the unregenerate is that not grace? It is not 'saving grace' but surely it is grace and if it is grace that comes before 'saving grace' why not call it 'prevenient grace'?

Unregenerate people can pray to God, but we both know that their prayers are not very effective.
For instance:
Psalm 66:18, "18If I had cherished iniquity in my heart, the Lord would not have listened.;
1 Peter 3:12, "For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

But God can and does show Grace to the unregenerate. This is grace that comes before regeneration and can be said to be 'prevenient' but not in the way of salvation.

[Edit: I have removed the rest of this post on Common Grace verses Saving Grace because of the length. If anyone wants to know what it says please let me know and I will send it to you. God Bless.]

I think we need to consider that the text seems to suggest clearly that the individual that was drawn did in fact 'come'.

RobertW is the only one who seemed to respond to this part of my post. Many of you are saying that prevenient grace enables the man to come to Christ but there is no guarentee that the person will be raised at the last day.

But John 6:44 clearly states that the person drawn by God will be raised. The verse simply does not state or imply that the person drawn will not be raised at the last day.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

I agree that man must choose to come, but I maintain that the person always chooses to come because coming to Jesus is what he wants to do.

Does the Bible teach Prevenient Grace? by R. C. Sproul

As the name suggests, prevenient grace is grace that “comes before” something. It is normally defined as a work that God does for everybody. He gives all people enough grace to respond to Jesus. That is, it is enough grace to make it possible for people to choose Christ. Those who cooperate with and assent to this grace are “elect.” Those who refuse to cooperate with this grace are lost. The strength of this view is that it recognizes that fallen man’s spiritual condition is severe enough that it requires God’s grace to save him. The weakness of the position may be seen in two ways. If this prevenient grace is merely external to man, then it fails in the same manner that the medicine and the life preserver analogies fail. What good is prevenient grace if offered outwardly to spiritually dead creatures?

On the other hand, if prevenient grace refers to something that God does within the heart of fallen man, then we must ask why it is not always effectual. Why is it that some fallen creatures choose to cooperate with prevenient grace and others choose not to? Doesn’t everyone get the same amount?

Think of it this way, in personal terms. If you are a Christian you are surely aware of other people who are not Christians. Why is it that you have chosen Christ and they have not? Why did you say yes to prevenient grace while they said no? Was it because you were more righteous than they were? If so, then indeed you have something in which to boast. Was that greater righteousness something you achieved on your own or was it the gift of God? If it was something you achieved, then at the bottom line your salvation depends on your own righteousness. If the righteousness was a gift, then why didn’t God give the same gift to everybody?

Perhaps it wasn’t because you were more righteous. Perhaps it was because you are more intelligent. Why are you more intelligent? Because you study more (which really means you are more righteous)? Or are you more intelligent because God gave you a gift of intelligence he withheld from others?

To be sure, most Christians who hold to the prevenient grace view would shrink from such answers. They see the implied arrogance in them. Rather they are more likely to say, “No, I chose Christ because I recognized my desperate need for him.” That certainly sounds more humble. But I must press the question. Why did you recognize your desperate need for Christ while your neighbor didn’t? Was it because you were more righteous than your neighbor, or more intelligent?

The question for advocates of prevenient grace is why some people cooperate with it and others don’t. How we answer that will reveal how gracious we believe our salvation really is. The $64,000 question is, “Does the Bible teach such a doctrine of prevenient grace? If so, where?”

We conclude that our salvation is of the Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom he regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject him. God’s saving grace effects what he intends to effect by it.

[R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God. Tyndale House Publishers: Wheaton, Ill.]

But this cannot be the case since all those who are called by God…come to God. Since not all people come to God…then not all people receive the same calling by God. Common Grace is not the call…Saving Grace is the call.

Not all that are called are saved. Robert already mentioned this verse.

I'm trying to look through the "calvinst" lenses right now. I think you even have to believe in a grace that is before "salvation." That is unless you believe that you are "saved" before you believe. You don't believe that do you?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Does the above verse not plainly say that we are saved by grace and the way we access it is "through faith?" If you believe that we are saved through faith then don't you believe God gave you that faith prior to "using" it? Is that not grace that you received "faith" to believe?

Here is a short commentary on John 6 a brother I know shortly put together. It's not a complete commentary on his thoughts, but is shows his line of thinking. I'll let you judge it.

John 6 has often been put forth as a pillar supporting Reformed theology. The Calvinist rightly emphasizes the fact of the necessity of divine drawing. Yet I believe the Calvinist errs when explaining the basis of this divine drawing in John 6. In Reformed theology that basis is found in the doctrine of unconditional election. I will contend here that the Calvinist is reading Reformed theology into the text while missing John’s explanation of the basis of the divine drawing in chapter 6 and throughout his gospel. This contextual explanation is what I seek to bring out here. Let the reader judge whether or not I have dealt faithfully and persuasively with the text.

In John 6:35-37 we find these words of the Lord Jesus to a crowd of Jews:

“Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.’” (ESV)

Drs. Peterson and Williams of Covenant Theological Seminary say of this passage:

“John 6:35 illumines the meaning of ‘coming’ to Jesus. ‘I am the bread of life; he who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.’ (italics added). ‘To come’ to Jesus means to believe in him. Consequently, Jesus teaches that all whom the Father gives him will believe in (come to) him. The Father’s giving people to the Son is a picture of election. In addition, the Father’s giving people to the Son precedes their believing in him for salvation. Election is not based on foreseen faith; it precedes faith and results in faith.”

I think the error being made here is loosing sight of the specific historical context of the passage. Jesus is not teaching a class on systematic theology at this point but rather talking to a specific group of people who do not believe in him. What he clearly says is that these people have not come to / believed in him because the Father had not given them to Him. At this point Peterson and Williams see “a picture of election”, but Jesus gives a different reason for these people not being given by the Father to the Son.

In verse 45 Jesus explains:

“It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me” (ESV)

Here Jesus declares that the basis of their not coming to / believing in him is not unconditional election, but rather because they have not “heard and learned from the Father”. They were not in a right relationship with the Father under the Old Covenant. This is a repeated emphasis throughout the gospel of John. Jesus continually points out in this gospel that if the Jews who opposed him were really faithful to the Father they would not be rejecting the Son. Jesus declares this principal clearly in John 5:46-47:

“If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But f you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?” ESV

Such passages in the gospel of John can be referenced again and again. My contention is that John 6 has nothing to do with unconditional election. This appears to me to be taking some phrases out of context and reading Reformed theology into them. What Jesus is saying is that those who had “heard and learned from the Father” were given to the Son. This is the faithful remnant in Israel at the coming of Jesus. These were those who believed Moses and responded to the ministry of John the Baptist. We must not loose sight of the fact that Jesus was speaking during a transition time when the Old Covenant was on it’s way out and the new was on it’s way in. Jesus was speaking in a historical setting and if we are to understand him we have to keep the context in view.

I believe this same argument will hold for Jesus’ mention of His sheep in John 10. I believe many in the Reformed tradition put the election label on passages that have nothing to do with election. The overwhelming evidence in the gospel of John is that Jesus is referring to the faithful under the Old Covenant who were being given to the Son under the New Covenant.

This can be clearly seen in Jesus prayer in John 17. He says:

"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word... While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." (vv. 6-11 ESV)

It is clear here that Jesus is speaking not in general theological language, but about specific people (the 12) while he was on the earth. They were given to the Son from the Father.

The Calvinist has taken a specific historical situation and turned it into a general theological principle.

Therefore, I conclude that when Jesus says in John 6:44 that, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." ESV, he is not speaking of inability. Those who rejected the light under the Old Covenant were not drawn to the light under the New.

I wrote:

But this cannot be the case since all those who are called by God…come to God. Since not all people come to God…then not all people receive the same calling by God. Common Grace is not the call…Saving Grace is the call.

PreachParsly wrote:

Not all that are called are saved.

That sentence stands in direct contrast to Romans 8:30 which states, “whom he called, them he also justified” This verse tells us God calls men to Jesus and those who are called are justified. The same thing is said in John 6:44, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” Both verses tell us that man cannot come to Jesus apart from an inner working of God. Both verses tell us that this inner working of God results in justification and “being raised at the last day.”

But some believe that man can be called by God and not justified or raised at the last day. This is why it is important to distinguish between the Internal Calling and the External Calling. Why do I say there are two callings? Because scripture tells us that all who are called are justified and all who are drawn are raised. Since not all people are justified and raised we must assume that this calling is not common to call men. Scripture also speaks of the gospel message being given to all men. This calling is given to all men and can be refused by man. It is not an inward calling but an external calling. It is in this external calling that God inwardly calls a man to Himself. Let me give an example to make this clearer:
Johnny and Janie are both walking down the street when a man approaches them and begins to speak to them. The man tells them about Jesus, about sin, righteousness and judgment. He clearly tells both the gospel of Christ. What this man has done is issue the external gospel call to both Johnny and Janie. While listening to the man, Johnny begins to feel conviction and sorry for his sin while Janie argues and mocks the man. Once the man has finished speaking, Johnny and Janie continue walking to their destination. Johnny is thinking about God and feels that he should repent and become a Christian while Janie remarks that the man they met was a nut who needs to get a life. In this example, God has inwardly called Johnny to himself and has not inwardly called Janie. Johnny later repents and has a new life in Christ while Janie wonders what happened to her good friend Johnny.

PreachParsly wrote:

I'm trying to look through the "calvinst" lenses right now. I think you even have to believe in a grace that is before "salvation." That is unless you believe that you are "saved" before you believe. You don't believe that do you?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Does the above verse not plainly say that we are saved by grace and the way we access it is "through faith?" If you believe that we are saved through faith then don't you believe God gave you that faith prior to "using" it? Is that not grace that you received "faith" to believe?

I do believe in a grace that is part of salvation that precedes faith. I do not believe someone is saved before they believe. In scripture I see that the salvation process begins with the inward calling of God upon a person—this is God’s saving grace. The person realizes that they are a sinner and responds to God’s call through faith. What is faith anyway? I once heard Adrian Rogers say, “Faith is you saying what God has already said.” I like that definition. It accurately shows that Faith is a response. I believe that God’s saving grace is prevenient in that it precedes faith, but I reject that God’s saving grace can be rejected because that would contradict scripture (ex. Romans 8:30 and John 6:44.

Such passages in the gospel of John can be referenced again and again. My contention is that John 6 has nothing to do with unconditional election. This appears to me to be taking some phrases out of context and reading Reformed theology into them. What Jesus is saying is that those who had “heard and learned from the Father” were given to the Son. This is the faithful remnant in Israel at the coming of Jesus. These were those who believed Moses and responded to the ministry of John the Baptist. We must not loose sight of the fact that Jesus was speaking during a transition time when the Old Covenant was on it’s way out and the new was on it’s way in. Jesus was speaking in a historical setting and if we are to understand him we have to keep the context in view.

We are told that these words Jesus spoke are not meant for us but were only meant for those people during Jesus’ time. If this is true, why are they included in scripture? Remember John’s purpose of writing his gospel? John 20:30-31, “Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” Also, John says in John 21:25, “Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” So from John’s own words there are many things Jesus said and did that are not written in his gospel. The things that were included were included so that “you may believe. Who is the ‘You’? Is it only the first century Jews who had John the Baptist’s baptism? Of course not. This is why Jesus’ words, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day" applies to us today as much as those who here in His audience.

I pray that these words are used by God for edification.

I am just wondering if "mercy" would not be what is granted to all men as in "it rains on the just and the unjust alike", and also all men who are living are given breath, and a heart beat, but is this not mercy? For in that they stand oppossed to God, He still grants them life(temporal)?

I wonder also if we see an idea between grace and mercy with Noah. For we read that, "Noah found grace in the sight of God." It was because of this grace that he was not destroyed when the rest of the world was. But all those around him were given mercy during the 120 years prior to the flood, and then it was over, and the one who had been given grace survived, but not those who had mercy.

Again I am not stating this as any doctrinal standard, just kind of musing aloud :-D

JaySaved, if you would read the whole bible instead of focusing intently on a few texts that you use to prove your point, you would be able to see that God prepares us for salvation, asks us if we will be saved, then acts on the answer. If we say yes, of course we will be raised up on the last day. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the down payment of the final close of escrow on our souls.

Still sending Blessings your way,

Quote: Jeff wrote

"I noticed you used Jeremiah as an example of the power of God's grace. How is it that Jeremiah knew God?"

Rather, "Before I formed thee in the belly." I approved of thee (as a prophet of whom I have chosen for this office)," and before thou camest forth from the womb" I made thee holy (dedicated you for this purpose); I have appointed thee (now by what I am telling you to say) "a prophet unto the nations."

"Unto the nations" - The privileges contained in this verse are of Christ so great as in their full sense to be true only of Christ Himself, while to Jeremiah they belong as being in so many particulars a type of Christ and a prophet of God for those that would believe in Christ when the fulness of time is come.

Galatians 4:1-7 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

((((But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.))))

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

This is why Jeremiah was called as a prophet.

In Christ: Phillip

[color=336699]Ah, a statement worthy of rebuttal!
[/color]

JaySaved wrote:
Does the Bible teach Prevenient Grace? by R. C. Sproul

As the name suggests, prevenient grace is grace that “comes before” something. It is normally defined as a work that God does for everybody. He gives all people enough grace to respond to Jesus. That is, it is enough grace to make it possible for people to choose Christ. Those who cooperate with and assent to this grace are “elect.” Those who refuse to cooperate with this grace are lost. The strength of this view is that it recognizes that fallen man’s spiritual condition is severe enough that it requires God’s grace to save him. The weakness of the position may be seen in two ways. If this prevenient grace is merely external to man, then it fails in the same manner that the medicine and the life preserver analogies fail. What good is prevenient grace if offered outwardly to spiritually dead creatures?

[color=336699]God spends a great deal of preparation to get us just to the point of being able to say yes or no. The process of preparation is the gradual giving of knowledge until enough of the whole gestault of the Bible is understood enough for a decision to be made.

Being spiritually dead at this point is irrelevant. We are being offered a bargain where if we say yes, we will be made spiritually alive!
[/color]

On the other hand, if prevenient grace refers to something that God does within the heart of fallen man, then we must ask why it is not always effectual. Why is it that some fallen creatures choose to cooperate with prevenient grace and others choose not to? Doesn’t everyone get the same amount?

[color=336699]Teaching the History of God's relationship with man is a complex task. It is much harder to learn what the Bible speaks of before the Holy Spirit enlivens us, then after. But God does not change the heart before we say yes. That is the whole point. We are all offered the same bargain. Some just refuse to take it.
[/color]

Think of it this way, in personal terms. If you are a Christian you are surely aware of other people who are not Christians. Why is it that you have chosen Christ and they have not?

[color=336699]I studied the question for a long time, like the business proposition it was. I looked at the pros and cons. The pros were better. I said yes.[/color]

Why did you say yes to prevenient grace while they said no? Was it because you were more righteous than they were?

[color=336699]Hardly! I was a very good sinner, but after a long enough time I found that sinning made me dislike the end result of my sin. The teaching of God gave me another way to walk, that although hard, gave me a better end result.

I considered it a long time. I was baptised at 15, but backslid immediately, joining the devil in the occult. Again, I was a very good sinner. Lucifer must have cried when I re-committed to Jesus 29 years later, after 21 years of studying both sin and righteousness almost equally well.[/color]

If so, then indeed you have something in which to boast.

[color=336699]What, that I was a great sinner? Everyone can be - it's so easy.[/color]

Was that greater righteousness something you achieved on your own or was it the gift of God?

[color=336699]Ah, but my only righteousness is in Jesus Christ, and I had no Jesus until I recommitted, saying, finally, calmly, without emotion, "I choose to believe in Jesus Christ".
[/color]

If it was something you achieved, then at the bottom line your salvation depends on your own righteousness.

[color=336699]But it didn't, you see. It was God's choice to keep calling until I answered with finality, one way or the other.[/color]

If the righteousness was a gift, then why didn’t God give the same gift to everybody?

[color=336699]He does, as soon as you choose to make Jesus Christ your Lord and Saviour. Then you have Jesus's perfect righteousness, no sloppy human junk calling itself that.[/color]

Perhaps it wasn’t because you were more righteous. Perhaps it was because you are more intelligent.

[color=336699]Nope. God was just persistant, so I kept re-considering.[/color]

Why are you more intelligent?

[color=336699]You know, whether I am or not is irrelevant. A five year old has an easier time understanding God than I did as an adult. If I were barely able to understand, about an I.Q. of 80, God would be able to tell me in the simple terms I needed to understand.

If I were a genius, with an I.Q. over 150, God would speak to me in those terms. And I would ask a lot more questions, and get a lot more answers before saying yes. But I wasn't a genius.
[/color]

Because you study more (which really means you are more righteous?

[color=336699]You know, you have a hangup on righteousness. Or didn't you know humans have no righteousness of their own, unless you want filthy rags.(In the Greek, we are talking about rags that would make a man unclean all day just for touching them.)[/color]

Or are you more intelligent because God gave you a gift of intelligence he withheld from others?

[color=336699]You grow repetitive. You must not have a good argument. Intelligence matters nothing. God can speak in equivalent terms to a five year old, a nearly retarded man,(sorry, I'm not politically correct!), an uneducated man, a genius, or just a regular guy. God is the really Great Communicator, all due respect to Ronald Reagan.[/color]

To be sure, most Christians who hold to the prevenient grace view would shrink from such answers.

[color=336699]I don't, in case you hadn't noticed. Besides, what's wrong with a little honesty? It's in the Commandments, you know. Or do you?[/color]

They see the implied arrogance in them.

[color=336699]I'd rather be arrogant, with the Holy Spirit working on it with me, than humble in Hell.[/color]

Rather they are more likely to say, “No, I chose Christ because I recognized my desperate need for him.”

[color=336699]No way! I felt so undesparate that I felt I was jumping off a cliff unnecessarily. But I made a reasoned decision, and have never regretted it.[/color]

That certainly sounds more humble.

[color=336699]What you said, certainly. What I said...I don't think so.[/color]

But I must press the question. Why did you recognize your desperate need for Christ while your neighbor didn’t?

[color=336699]I am not the least bit humble...yet. In fact, pride is my most persistant sin. It comes first in my prayers of repentance, just before arrogance, vanity, selfishness, a wayward tongue...I could go on, but I think God sometime's even gets bored with the same-o same-o. I always get the impression He's asking, "yes, but did you notice ...."

God has a much better memory than I do, since I have the excuse of a short term memory deficit from that car accident in 1995. So then I ask Him to tell me, so I can repent properly. And that really is an ouch![/color]

Was it because you were more righteous than your neighbor, or more intelligent?

[color=336699]Neither. You have a worse memory than I do. Look above several paragraphs to when you asked the same questions.

Or is this a psychology test to see if I'm a potential alcholholic, or a persistant sex addict?[/color]

The question for advocates of prevenient grace is why some people cooperate with it and others don’t.

[color=336699]I would call it the inability to see which side their bread is buttered on, or who's got the loaded dice. God offers a terrific bargain, a great deal. Some people prefer their own deal to God's.

That's only lack of common sense, not lack of intelligence.

And since those that refuse Jesus generally think I'm the stupid one, I get to smile secretively, sort of like the Mona Lisa.

I wonder if that's why she's smiling?[/color]

How we answer that will reveal how gracious we believe our salvation really is.

[color=336699]I don't see what grace has to do with salvation before you get it - we don't get saving grace unless we say yes.[/color]

The $64,000 question is, “Does the Bible teach such a doctrine of prevenient grace? If so, where?”

[color=336699]Just about everywhere, but you have to take it as a whole, not tear it apart into little bitty snips. Part of it has to do with the Sovereignty of God, the Omnipotence of God, the Omniprescence of God, and the Omniscience of God. Then you add His creation of us, and His stubborn love of us.

Add an eternity of patience, the willingness to suffer on a Cross, and to endure the constant pain of rejection, and you wonder how even God can put up with the situation. That's worth a lot more than $64 million dollars - when are you going to pay me?[/color]

We conclude that our salvation is of the Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom he regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject him. God’s saving grace effects what he intends to effect by it.

[color=336699]You conclude it. I don't. You go right ahead and stay a Calvinist. I don't mind.

Got any more questions?[/color]

[R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God. Tyndale House Publishers: Wheaton, Ill.]

[color=336699]Many Blessings,
[/color]

Teaching the History of God's relationship with man is a complex task. It is much harder to learn what the Bible speaks of before the Holy Spirit enlivens us, then after. But God does not change the heart before we say yes. That is the whole point. We are all offered the same bargain. Some just refuse to take it.

Why do some just refuse? This is the entire point of R.C.'s article. There has the be a reason that some choose and some do not.

I studied the question for a long time, like the business proposition it was. I looked at the pros and cons. The pros were better. I said yes.

It was simply a 'business proposition'?

UniqueWebrev, from reading your response to R.C. it became very obvious that you were more interesting in disagreeing than actually hearing what he had to say. Case in point:

R.C. said:

Rather they (Arminians) are more likely to say, “No, I chose Christ because I recognized my desperate need for him.”

You replied:

No way! I felt so undesparate that I felt I was jumping off a cliff unnecessarily. But I made a reasoned decision, and have never regretted it.

By disagreeing with him you are saying that your salvation was a business transaction in which you did not recognize your desperate need for him. You speak of your decision to follow Christ being a matter of looking at the pros and cons and making a reasoned decision.

Brother, I dare not judge you, but I will be praying for you because this troubles my spirit.

JaySaved, if you would read the whole bible instead of focusing intently on a few texts that you use to prove your point,

I do read the entire bible, but it is funny you say that because it is a convenient answer when you don't want to address the verses in question.

I am just trying to show that in John 6:44...
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

...the Him raised at the last day is the same Him that is drawn.

I am focusing on this verse because it clearly shows that all who are drawn are raised up at the last day thus affirming the doctrine of Irresistible Grace as biblical.

The problem is that those who don't believe in Irresistible Grace refuse to take John 6:44 at face value. To do this, would mean that they would have to rethink much of their theology. But I understand the hesitancy because I was there just a few years ago.

I struggled against the doctrine of Election because in my mind it was not fair. But the more I read the scripture for myself the more God revealed to me that the "fair" thing for Him to do is let us all go to hell. I pray that God would give us all wisdom to hear his truth.

God bless you webrev.

JaySaved wrote:
UniqueWebRev wrote:

Teaching the History of God's relationship with man is a complex task. It is much harder to learn what the Bible speaks of before the Holy Spirit enlivens us, then after. But God does not change the heart before we say yes. That is the whole point.

We are all offered the same bargain. Some just refuse to take it.

Why do some just refuse? This is the entire point of R.C.'s article. There has the be a reason that some choose and some do not.

[color=333399]I can tell you, because I spent a long time in that place of denial. That is the reason some choose and some do not. It's why Lucifer can keep on with his plans, and believe that he can win against the God who made him! Denial. And denial is a lot easier to live with than the straight and narrow road with Jesus.[/color]

I studied the question for a long time, like the business proposition it was. I looked at the pros and cons. The pros were better. I said yes.

It was simply a 'business proposition'?

UniqueWebrev, from reading your response to R.C. it became very obvious that you were more interesting in disagreeing than actually hearing what he had to say. Case in point:

R.C. said:

Rather they (Arminians) are more likely to say, “No, I chose Christ because I recognized my desperate need for him.”

You replied:

No way! I felt so undesparate that I felt I was jumping off a cliff unnecessarily. But I made a reasoned decision, and have never regretted it.

By disagreeing with him you are saying that your salvation was a business transaction in which you did not recognize your desperate need for him. You speak of your decision to follow Christ being a matter of looking at the pros and cons and making a reasoned decision.

Brother, I dare not judge you, but I will be praying for you because this troubles my spirit.

[color=333399]JaySaved, a covenant is a contract. Each party agrees to do something in exchange for something from the other. That makes it a business transaction.

My dear Brother, for once I really wish you would take me at my word. I did very logically weigh the pain and pleasure of the struggle I was in, and the pain and pleasure of following Jesus.

I have an unusual history which I will not go into here - it would take hours to write, and bore me to death - but it resulted in a repression of all natural feelings from 18 mo's upward.

It was only just a few years ago, with the help of the Lord, that I was able to finally feel all the feelings I was taught to repress from toddlerhood. So you see, my decision for Jesus was reasoned out very carefully, after a long study of the situation.

God has worked with me to the point that I could get playful with the Sproul article - and yes, it was fun to disagree. But that doesn't make the answers untrue.

I was simply aware that Mr. Sproul's article was very carefully contrived to lead to a given conclusion, and it was easy for me to answer it honestly. Yes, I was a bit facetious in some places, but frankly, I felt that Mr. Sproul had claimed too much for those that were to read it.

His article was one of the best propaganda pieces I've ever read, leading the reader to a conclusion that makes perfect sense, so long as they don't think about it.

My dear JaySaved, I know we will never agree on this. You will fight to the death for your denomination. The one problem I see in Calvinism is Calvinism's arrogance - for it is arrogance to refuse to admit the possibiity of being wrong. I, on the other hand, although firmly persuaded in what you call prevenient grace, although I wouldn't describe it quite that way, would really listen, and I admit that I could be wrong.

Yes, it would take a lot of proof, and stray texts will not do it, for I look at the whole of the Bible, the massive work God has done over the ages, His complex plans, the way He has accomplished it all, and I can't see Calvinism fitting into it.

It's not just the robot aspect, though if I have had no choice, and God has changed my desires against my will, my love for Him would be false, a construct. It is that Calvinism states that God has decided who will go to hell, provides all who will be saved by decree, then allows some second class citizens to seek Jesus to be saved.

Despite the quote from Romans, which I can understand a very different way than you choose to, based on a probable translation problem, and a different view of physics, I can see the idea of foreknowledge and predestination very differently than you do.

I see God looking at time as if it were a parade. He can see the beginning, the middle, the end, all at the same time. He know's which float is going to break down, and exactly how to handle it. In fact, because He knows about the float problem, He has, in effect, by reason of the great power He has, made it happen, both the breakdown, and getting it working again.

Consequently, predestination to me is part of God's Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Omniprescence. To me, as God foresees, or foreknows, whatever is foreseen or foreknown comes into being. But the method is very specific for how things come into being.

God deals with us in His permissive will, not His perfect will, or everything would already be finished, and done. God would need to have done nothing more than pronounce His pleasure, and decide on a creative manner of accomplishing it.

The only problem with this is that God set up laws that He cannot break without denying Himself. That is why He had to set up the Kinsman Redeemer custom, as part of earthly law, so that He could use it to save us. Jesus, although Divine, is an earthly solution to man's inability to be perfect. It give's God an out, a way to forgive, if only we will take His outstretched hand through Jesus.

My brother, you can tear everyone of my statements to bits, but that doesn't make them not true for me, not believed by me, not done by me, and by others.

You think it impossible to choose God's way coldly and logically. When you've spent as much time with the devil as I have, then you can say it cannot be logically argued.

You believe me to be just arguing for the sake of arguing, and I admit, the Sproul article was like a dogtreat to my coyote mutt when I had read it. But I just answered it line by line, honestly, if lightheartedly. My honesty in admitting that I had a bit of fun with the article should be proof that I am telling the entire truth, good or bad, about myself.

I have read it so many times myself since I wrote it, that I am positive I could not have said it differently, or with more honesty. Oh, I could have left out the facetious remarks, but frankly, it was too much a temptation not to use them. After all, Mr. Sproul didn't hesitate to state my beliefs for me at the end of his article, as if telling me would make it so.

It's bad enough that the damned won't look at Jesus, that they turn away from what is a very simple transaction, a business arrangement, Jesus' blood to cover sins in exchange for belief in and devotion to Jesus.

Yet all you care about is how I argued the case, so to speak. You continually ignore what I say, and simply tell me how badly I argued it, or you throw more texts at me, as if that should convince me. I am not a lawyer, I am a Jesus Freak!

Yes, I can think logically about a matter of faith. I can think logically about anything. I just set my feelings to one side. It is all I was ever trained to do. If ever there was a Vulcan like Spock, he was a member of my family.

And all you do is want to dispute, line by line, as if that will convince me. Disputations do not convince, my brother. And only Jesus could convince me that Calvinism is true, so you'd best start praying if you want me in your denomination. Because I have a different vision of God than you do.

He is a God of complete Justice as well as grace and mercy, and He will not break His own laws even to please Himself. And basically, that is what you claim He has done, by decreeing in violation of His own covenants with mankind salvation for a certain number of men to be saved, some others who can be saved, and damnation for the rest.

Since I hear regularly from Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and have had 5 specific orders from God, not to mention several healing miracles, I do not think you need to worry about me. My whole life is Jesus. And only if Jesus wants me to become a Calvinist, will it happen. Until then, I am just a Messianic Gentile, following in the Apostles footsteps without founding a denomination.

Calvinism is a pretty idea, with so many comforts built in. If you are a Calvinist, then God has chosen you to be saved, to be one of the elect. You are safe forever. Don't worry, everything will be fine.

It's a nice evangelism line, but not the way you live with God. Oddly, JaySaved, you say one thing, the straight Calvinist line, but you live Christ the same way I do, with hope, and faith, and fear of displeasing Him. I think that you actually forget to be 'predestined'.

I am comfortable in the outlines of my faith. I listen to the Holy Spirit, and to Jesus, and if they say frog, I jump as best I can. I admit to not always hearing as well as I'd like, but that grows easier every day. I don't really even think anymore except in terms of anything except of how it will affect me-and-Jesus. Not me and Jesus, me-and-Jesus.

I don't think, JaySaved, from all that I have read, that you think or act any diffeently. But you persist in stating a belief system that I think you have outgrown. For methinks my Brother doth protest too much.

Love and Blessings,

Postscript: Jaysaved, you may not realize it, but you quote 'R.C.' with more belief and dedication than you do the Bible, as if 'R.C.' cannot be wrong. That what 'R.C.' says is the gospel truth, not the Bible. Be very careful, here, Brother, for it makes you sound like a cult follower, and makes Calvinism sound like a believe or die cult.[/color]

UniqueWebRev, We must agree to disagree. I do not think less of you because you see scripture in a different light than I do. I honestly believe that we agree on all the major tenets of faith, we just disagree on how all of it takes place.

I hope through his experience that you would get a new understanding of what true Calvinism is. It is not a cult, it is not a sect, it is just an interpretation of scripture that I view to be correct. You disagree however.

I do not doubt your honesty in answering these questions. I think you are wrong but I honestly believe you believe what you believe (lots of believes!)

Postscript: Jaysaved, you may not realize it, but you quote 'R.C.' with more belief and dedication than you do the Bible, as if 'R.C.' cannot be wrong. That what 'R.C.' says is the gospel truth, not the Bible. Be very careful, here, Brother, for it makes you sound like a cult follower, and makes Calvinism sound like a believe or die cult.

I want to go on record to say that your quote is completely wrong. I think Sproul is wrong on Infant Baptism and I disagree with some of his Eschatology and probably numerous other things. I do not think Sproul is infallible, but I do think he is a smart man. Also, all my posts are available for everyone to see and it is plain to everyone that I quote from scripture more than anything else. If you don't believe me, check for yourself.

BTW, you never addressed my statments on John 6:44.

Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

In this Scripture what do you here Brother Jay?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Do you think that God was a Father to Jeremiah?

In Christ
Jeff

No Problem, my Brother.

After all this time, I too think that we will never agree.

Re: the R.C. quotes, remember how you said that things sound harsher or more absolute in writing? Your words on R. C. 'sounded' adoring in a way your treatment of the Bible never does, so that is why I mentioned it. It 'sounded' very odd - please review for future avoidance. I''l take your word for it that Mr. Sproul is not 100% correct in your viewpoint.

How blessed we are to be able to disagree so openly, and not get shot, or have to pick up dueling swords!

Many Blessings,

Jeff wrote:

Quote; "Do you think that God was a Father to Jeremiah?"

Not as a Seed giving Father, but like Abraham a Father of Nations, God was called their creating
Father of all that they were as a chosen people of God.

There is a difference in a creation son's and a birthed Son. You See When we call God our Father, by the Christ Seed that is born again in us, He is more than creating Father to those that have Jesus Christ Birthed in them. Not only chosen but redeemed and birthed by God Himself whom Jesus said, Pray this way, "Our Father", this Father means Parent. Jeremiah's Father means an earthly Father, for they had not been born again by the Seed of Christ in them. They, Israel can never become this unless they now believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Which Jeremiah had no understanding as those after the Cross, revealed by the Holy Spirit. They will be Christ Ones as all that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. They did not even know His Name.

They will have God's Laws written in their hearts. We have the Heart of God in Christ Jesus birthed in us. Our Nature is Godly by Christ Jesus. Is Christ a Son as Jeremiah and calls God Father the same as Christ Jesus does, and as we that are Born Again of Incorruptable Seed?

"It is no longer I who live But Christ who lives in me"

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip...

Jer. 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:

By what means does God sanctify Jeremiah?

What does Jesus mean when He prays...

John 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

In Christ
Jeff

The Word of the Lord came to Moses, Adam, Abraham, all in the old testament. There was no Son revealed in them.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto Me of My Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [Him].

"The Son (((will))) reveal." It was Good in the sight of God.

Matthew 11:25-26 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Did Jeremiah believe that Jesus is the Christ?

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

What is written?

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip quoted:

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto Me of My Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [Him].

Who revealed the Father to Jeremiah?

In Christ
Jeff

Psalm 119

130 The entrance of Your words gives light;
\t\tIt gives understanding to the simple.
131 I opened my mouth and panted,
\t\tFor I longed for Your commandments.
132 Look upon me and be merciful to me,
\t\tAs Your custom is toward those who love Your name.

This man loved God's name. Is is possible for man to love God with only his carnal mind? What does Paul teach?

In Christ
Jeff

Jaysaved wrote:

Because scripture tells us that [b]all who are called are justified[/b] and [b]all who are drawn are raised[/b]. Since not all people are justified and raised we must assume that this calling is not common to call men.

[color=009900]John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/color]

Earlier you refered to the two 'him's, but forgot the man. No man can come unless he is drawn, totally consistent with Paul who said [color=009900]Romans 3:11 ...there is none that seeketh after God.[/color] The question is, does the Father draw any others than those that come. The verse does not say and it is illogical to try to make it say something about those that didn't come, they are not part of the discussion, which is all about those [color=009900]John 6:39 ...all which he [the Father] hath given me... and John 6:40 ...every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him...[/color] But those that don't come, aren't given, and don't see the Son and believe on Him are not in focus at this point. Personally, I believe God calls all, though I might have to restrict myself to many to be totally scriptural, [color=009900]Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen,[/color] but then again [color=009900]Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely[/color] suggests maybe it is all that are called, after all.

[color=009900]Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/color]

Exactly the same, you limit yourself to the 'called', not recognising that this refers back to the 'predestinated'. In fact if we go back further this relates to those that are 'foreknown', but it does not say anything about those that are do not respond. Again they could be 'called' and yet not respond without undermining in any way the statement that Paul is making. To avoid further dispute, please note the 'called' in Rom 8:28 is not the same 'called' as in Rom 8:30, rather it relates more to the predestined than the 'bidden/called'.

If these passages are talking to any controversial doctrine, they relate to predestination, rather than prevenient grace. [b]My question to you is why are you so against prevenient grace?[/b] God called me from an early age, and reminded me of His call several times, before I was saved. I would not have sought Him. I am very, very grateful for prevenient grace, I neither deserved to be saved, nor to be called, but He was gracious enough to do both, because He loved me. Does that mean that He neither loves, nor calls those that do not become Christians, I think not. [color=009900]Luke 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed (the word of God): and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.[/color] For some reason, in some lives, the seed never gets into the ground and it never grows unto salvation; the devil has a lot to do with that.

Blessings
Mike

How blessed we are to be able to disagree so openly, and not get shot, or have to pick up dueling swords!

How blessed we are that we can disagree on this yet still go out into the world and proclaim the savior power of Jesus Christ!

I am joining this conversation late,

Welcome brother!

...but you seem to quote only the parts of the verse that fit your doctrine and therefore end up making a false deduction.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Earlier you refered to the two 'him's, but forgot the man. No man can come unless he is drawn, totally consistent with Paul who said Romans 3:11 ...there is none that seeketh after God.

I agree with you so far. No one can come unless he is drawn because there is none that seek after God without God's drawing. He initiates the process.

The question is, does the Father draw any others than those that come.

I am so glad you said this. You admit that the clear understanding of John 6:44 is that 'him who is draw will be raised at the last day'. You are now asking if there are others drawn that do not come.

The verse does not say and it is illogical to try to make it say something about those that didn't come, they are not part of the discussion, which is all about those John 6:39 ...all which he [the Father] hath given me... and John 6:40 ...every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him... But those that don't come, aren't given, and don't see the Son and believe on Him are not in focus at this point.

Ok. Let me see if I understand your point. You say that the context of John 6:44 are only those people who are 'given by the Father to the Son' and 'see the Son and believe'. It is only this group that are drawn and raised at the last day. Those who do not come to the Son are not given and do see the son and believe. This group is not part of John 6:44.

I totally agree. I don't understand how you disagree with my statement.

Personally, I believe God calls all, though I might have to restrict myself to many to be totally scriptural, Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen, but then again Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely suggests maybe it is all that are called, after all.

I believe that the gospel call is to be extended to all mankind without exception, but God's inward call to repentance comes only to those He has given to the Son.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Exactly the same, you limit yourself to the 'called', not recognizing that this refers back to the 'predestinated'. In fact if we go back further this relates to those that are 'foreknown', but it does not say anything about those that are do not respond. Again they could be 'called' and yet not respond without undermining in any way the statement that Paul is making. To avoid further dispute, please note the 'called' in Rom 8:28 is not the same 'called' as in Rom 8:30, rather it relates more to the predestined than the 'bidden/called'.

Those who are foreknown are predestined, those who are predestined are called, those who are called are justified, those who are justified are glorified. I agree that the external call, by man, is to be given to all men but the internal calling spoken of in Romans 8:30 is only to those who are foreknown.

If these passages are talking to any controversial doctrine, they relate to predestination, rather than prevenient grace. My question to you is why are you so against prevenient grace?

Here if where we can get into trouble. I am not against Grace from God that comes prior to salvation, I am simply against the Arminian doctrine of Prevenient Grace. This doctrine says that God brings man into a neutral state so that man may accept or reject salvation. I find it unbiblical. Certainly Paul would describe the saving grace of his salvation experience as more Irresistible

God called me from an early age, and reminded me of His call several times, before I was saved. I would not have sought Him. I am very, very grateful for prevenient grace, I neither deserved to be saved, nor to be called, but He was gracious enough to do both, because He loved me. Does that mean that He neither loves, nor calls those that do not become Christians, I think not.

Praise the Lord. I am glad to hear that you are a follower of Christ and that you have always been aware of His calling. Certainly the grace you received from God was prevenient in the sense that you received it before salvation, but I also would ask you if you think you could have ever reject your savior once you truly knew Him? I know I couldn't and I don't want to.

Jeff wrote;

Quote: "Who revealed the Father to Jeremiah?"

Jer 1:4
¶ Then the word (rbd) of the LORD (hwhy) came unto me, saying rma,

The Father as they (Jeremiah) knowing Him as a creating Father and The God of Israel. Not Jesus who had not been born of the Father through Mary, the Incarnate Christ.

LORD:
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
3068. Y@hovah
Search for H3068 in KJVSL
hwhy Y@hovah yeh-ho-vaw'
from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord.

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
3069. Y@hovih
Search for H3069 in KJVSL
hwhy Y@hovih yeh-ho-vee'
a variation of 3068 (used after 136, and pronounced by Jews as 430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce 3068 as 136):--God.

Rom 16:25 ¶ Now to Him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Brother Phillip wrote:

The Father as they (Jeremiah) knowing Him as a creating Father and The God of Israel. Not Jesus who had not been born of the Father through Mary, the Incarnate Christ.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Christ is also known as "The everlasting Father."

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

It is the work of the Son to reveal the Father.

In Christ
Jeff

Jesus and the Father were One until Jesus Christ was born of a woman, and He was birthed in Mary, that He might bring all things to the Father and that God will be all in all. Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

If Jesus was the One that revealed to Jeremiah the Father, there was not understanding of any separation that Jesus would be born again in all who believe from the Cross to the Rapture.

God was then The Father of Jesus Christ as He is our Father also, and the Son subordinate to the Father because Jesus Chose to be, and able to become the Savior of the World.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 For he hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

The separation of the Father and the Birth of Jesus Christ as a man will be as it was before Jesus Christ was born of a woman. For He Jesus Christ will be subject to God the Father.

It was not the Christ of the Cross that revealed to Jeremiah that he was a prophet of God, because the Cross had not occurred. That is why the Father reveals the Son and the Son reveals the Father, they were One until Christ was born of a Woman and He deemed it not robbery to be equal with God, but said He was that they might believe He was the Son of God.

Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

You must see the difference in salvation in the old testament by works and by works faith and the salvation of Grace through Faith of Jesus Christ in the New Testament, or the Cross of Jesus Christ meant nothing. Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

You must see the difference in salvation in the old testament by works and by works faith and the salvation of Grace through Faith of Jesus Christ in the New Testament,

Paul does not teach this, listen to Scripture...

Romans 11

2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Salvation has never required man's works.

Again...
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

In all generations grace brings salvation to the remnant..

In Christ
Jeff

Romans 10:21 But to Israel he says:

“ All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Why would God reach out if He predestined the disobedience?

I believe the text in these Chapters is telling Israel that they can not say that they are the "elect" That God will allow whomever He pleases whether Jew or Gentile. So to use these verses as personal salvation I believe would be incorrect, because the text is referring to the calling of a people, not personal salvation.

I guess we need to determine how his outstretched hands' corresponds to the fact that God has hardened the majority of the Jews.

Brother Jay wrote:

I guess we need to determine how his outstretched hands' corresponds to the fact that God has hardened the majority of the Jews.

Proverbs 1:

20 \tWisdom calls aloud outside;
\tShe raises her voice in the open squares.
21 \tShe cries out in the chief concourses,
\tAt the openings of the gates in the city
\tShe speaks her words:
22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.
23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.
24 \tBecause I have called and you refused,
\tI have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 \tBecause you disdained all my counsel,
\tAnd would have none of my rebuke,
26 \tI also will laugh at your calamity;
\tI will mock when your terror comes,
27 \tWhen your terror comes like a storm,
\tAnd your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
\tWhen distress and anguish come upon you.
28 \t“Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
\tThey will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29 \tBecause they hated knowledge
\tAnd did not choose the fear of the LORD,
30 \tThey would have none of my counsel
\tAnd despised my every rebuke.
31 \tTherefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
\tAnd be filled to the full with their own fancies.

Do you see what the last verse says here about those who:

24 \tBecause I have called and you refused,
\tI have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 \tBecause you disdained all my counsel,
\tAnd would have none of my rebuke,

There fate is summed up by verse 31:

31 \tTherefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
\tAnd be filled to the full with their own fancies.

Paul wrote about this precept in Romans 1:

Rom. 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

Rom. 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

What does it mean to those who God "gives up."

In Christ
Jeff

Quote: Jeff

"Salvation has never required man's works"

Amen and try to tell man this, there are few that understand. The Law or Grace, Choose.

Old testament salvation by Law, New Testament salvation by Grace. They don't mix. Israel, the Wife of God and The Church, the Body of Christ His Bride.

The Gospel hidden, Christ In you. The old gospel looking for Messiah, the new gospel of Paul in Jesus Christ, His is come and now is in you because you believe.

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

"Old testament salvation by Law, New Testament salvation by Grace. They don't mix. Israel, the Wife of God and The Church, the Body of Christ His Bride."

Romans 4:
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Salvation never, never, ever came through obey the law on Mount Sinai. What is Paul teaching in the verses above?

In Christ
Jeff

Sis wrote:

I know Romans also says that God hardens people, but it seems they have something to do with that, through unbelief.

That is the essensence of this thread.

God speaks to all men by His Holy Spirit. There are those who walk for a time and then disconnect themselves from the vine. Others reject God outright. Yet all are subject to the wrath of God because of the Law given on Mount Sinai. By what means has God provided that men might find salvation?

What does Scripture say?

Proverbs 1:

Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
21 She cries out in the *chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:
22 "How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24 Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,
26 I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your terror comes,
27 When your terror comes like a storm,
And your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.

28 "Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the Lord,
30 They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.
31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.

God supplies the provision, here the mystery is found in "wisdom" from God.

Yet what do most men do with this "wisdom" that is freely given from God?

What does Scripture say?

And then what happens to those who continually reject "wisdom?"

What does Scripture say?

30 They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.
31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.

Finally, what does it mean for the individual God gives up on?

31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.

This verse is also illustrated by Paul's teachings found in Romans 1:

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind,

When God gives one over to the fancies of their own mind what happens to their hearts?

What does Scripture say?

In Christ
Jeff

What does the parable of the sower have to do with this thread?

Are you willing to submit to the word of God?

Are you willing to grow patiently so that the word brings fruit?

Or does unbelief rule?

In Christ
Jeff

1 John 1:5-10 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 5:18-20 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Is this what you are speaking of?

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip asked:

Is this what you are speaking of?

I sort of lost you, which post are you refering to?

In Christ
Jeff

Jeff wrote: Quote

""What does the parable of the sower have to do with this thread?

Are you willing to submit to the word of God?

Are you willing to grow patiently so that the word brings fruit?

Or does unbelief rule""

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The Sower; "According as He hath chosen us in Him".

Eph 1 is the epitome of Gods Plan from before the foundation of the world. It is Gods pleasure to say who His son's will be. Then it is His pleasure to be sure that the son's He chooses are what He wants them to be. It is Christ the Son that He wants us to be. He has provided that in all that are His. This will not set with you in a believing privilege understanding of truth. But, God has only One Son. We are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world ever began or before Adam and Eve were created.

How could a created being come to this place of a son being made of the dust of the ground. God had to birth a Son in a creation for the creation to be a fellow heir with The Only Begotten Son He has. So how? By being Born Again. A new creation. One Son in many sons' as many different expressions of the Only Son.

Christ must be in you as a new life that we in Christ must live. All of Eph 1, is this plan and the coming together of the Plan of God to bring son's into His House. We in Christ are heavenly beings, even in Christ and Christ in us already, by the birthing which can only come from a physical being sacrificed to justify God birthing not the physical sacrifice in us, but being birthed by the Spirit of Christ that we could then be called sons' of God. That is what the Sower is all about.

Ephesians 1:1-23 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

In Christ by God before the foundation of the World and After the Cross, all else is bringing God's creation to that point. God used many ways to bring His creation to that perfect point in Time, "Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Gen 38:12 And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah's wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite.

Exd 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.

Jdg 11:4 And it came to pass in process of time, that the children of Ammon made war against Israel.

Job 22:16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Innocent Adam, guilty Cain, conscience, Israel seared in conscience, Promise of Christ, Government destroyed by judgment, Law producing death, promise received in the fullness of time.
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (that we might come to the Glory of God) Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is God fulfillment of the Word of God, that is, which was hid from all generation until Paul was given this perfection of the creation as God chooses His own sons'. "Christ In you the Hope of Glory" being joined to Him in crucifixion and resurrection and a new Being that is God in Christ bring forth sons'.

Galatians 2:17-20 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ, by God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit Teacher of this new life: Phillip

Brother Phillip;

I was asking these questions in reference to...

What does it mean when God turns one over to their own "fancies."

What happens as a result of this action by God?

Is it not inevitable according to Scripture that their hearts are hardened?

In Christ
Jeff

Rom 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Paul teaches that all are subjected to the Holy Spirit. How can I say this?

Proverbs 1:
Pro 1:20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, [saying],

22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

The Light is availiable to all men...

Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

What if men reject that Light?

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

This precept is found in the whole counsel of God...

Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

"...they eat of the fruit of their own way, and filled with their own devices."

Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Do you hear what Scripture is teaching here?

In Christ
Jeff

For those who understand Calvinism and Arminianism, how do these Scriptures in the previous post align with either position?

In Christ
Jeff

JaySaved wrote:
I guess we need to determine how his outstretched hands' corresponds to the fact that God has hardened the majority of the Jews.

Oh, Jay!

The Jews hearts are hardened until the Church is gathered into the harpazo, or Rapture. Then God will spend 7 very uncomfortable years dealing with them, and the rest of the unbelieving world.
The Church and the Jews are under different covenants, and God never breaks a covenant.

Blessings,

The Church and the Jews are under different covenants, and God never breaks a covenant.

What covenant are the Jews under and what covenant is the church under?

JaySaved,

The Jews are under the Mosaic Covenant, the covenant of the Law, and will be judged under it.

That law is the Ten Commandments, and all the derivative laws that total to an additional 601 laws of living.

This is why they must be tried in the last seven years of Daniel's prophecy, of which is named, 'the time of Jacob's Trouble'. Alas, this is the last seven years before Jesus returns in glory, to rule and reign, and is what we Christians call the Tribulation.

Christians are under the New Covenant, the Covenant of Grace through Jesus Christ.

We Christians are under both a kinder, but a more comprehensive pair of laws.

Matthew 22:

35. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36. Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.
39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

And what is more, we must try to obey not only the letter of the law, but the heart of it. Knowing that this is impossible, and that the Mosaic Law was given to show us our sins, so the Grace of God gives us Jesus's righteousness through His death and ressurrection, and our belief on them.

Blessings,

UniqueWebRev wrote:
JaySaved,

The Jews are under the Mosaic Covenant, the covenant of the Law, and will be judged under it.

That law is the Ten Commandments, and all the derivative laws that total to an additional 601 laws of living.

What do you make of this:

[b]1[/b] [u]These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.[/u]
[b]2[/b] And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
[b]3[/b] The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
[b]4[/b] [u]Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, [b]unto this day.[/b][/u]
[b]Deut 29:1-4[/b]

Since this covenant came after Horeb, and according to v4, appears to be a supplementary statement added, due to Israel's inability to perceive, see and hear, until this point, then couldn't it be reasonably assumed that this covenant would override the former? The covenant, here established is spelled out in cc29-30. It is not so much a call to obey statutes, as to flee from idolatry, which will lead to a life live according to the description of the commandments.

Note also that in John 1, the words, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, the same was in the beginning with God ... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." the word "Word" could be replaced with Torah. Messianic theologians would say that this could be translated, "In the beginning were 613 Commandments...and the 613 Commandments became flesh..." In other words, Jesus is the physical embodiment of Gods Law.

Consider also Paul's words:

[b]10[b] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, [u]Cursed is [b]every one[/b] that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/u]
[b]11[/b] But that [u]no man is justified by the law in the sight of God[/u], it is evident: for, [u]The just shall live by faith*[/u].
[b]12[/b] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
...
[b]21[/b] [u]Is the law then against the promises (see * above) of God? God forbid:[/u] for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
[b]22[/b] But the [u]scripture hath concluded [b]all[/b] under sin[/u], that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[b]23[/b] But [u]before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith[/u] which should afterwards be revealed.
[b]24[/b] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[b]25[/b] But [u]after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster[/u].
[b]26[/b] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[b]Gal 3:10-12,21-26[/b]

It is more likely that any future suffering on the part of Israel will be shared with the church, than avoided by it.

Brother Aaron wrote:

Since this covenant came after Horeb, and according to v4, appears to be a supplementary statement added, due to Israel's inability to perceive, see and hear, until this point, then couldn't it be reasonably assumed that this covenant would override the former? The covenant, here established is spelled out in cc29-30. It is not so much a call to obey statutes, as to flee from idolatry, which will lead to a life live according to the description of the commandments.

Here is a sequence of events that speaks of two different covenants...

Ezek. 20:5 “Say to them, “Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the LORD your God.’ 6 On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, “flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands. 7 Then I said to them, “Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’ 8 But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, “I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’ 9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

Ezek. 20:10 “Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, “which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’ 12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.

They rebeled while still living in Egypt. God then brought them out of Egypt and then gave them the covenant of Mount Sinai.

In Christ
Jeff

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
JaySaved,

The Jews are under the Mosaic Covenant, the covenant of the Law, and will be judged under it.

That law is the Ten Commandments, and all the derivative laws that total to an additional 601 laws of living.

What do you make of this:

[b]1[/b] [u]These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.[/u]
[b]2[/b] And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
[b]3[/b] The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
[b]4[/b] [u]Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, [b]unto this day.[/b][/u]
[b]Deut 29:1-4[/b]

Since this covenant came after Horeb, and according to v4, appears to be a supplementary statement added, due to Israel's inability to perceive, see and hear, until this point, then couldn't it be reasonably assumed that this covenant would override the former? The covenant, here established is spelled out in cc29-30. It is not so much a call to obey statutes, as to flee from idolatry, which will lead to a life live according to the description of the commandments... God's point has always been, "Obey me with My strength, by My grace, through My faith." He clarified this again and again to the Israelites, finally hardening their hearts in Isaiah 6, so that they could no longer hear Him, and yet in spite of this, He promised to spare a remnant, who would return led by "weeping, and with supplications" (Jer 31:9). Jesus cited this as the reason why he spake in parables. It has always been the same, and always will be the same. Israel was given a Law that was based upon a sacrifice, in order to point them to the Messiah to come.

It is more likely that any future suffering on the part of Israel will be shared with the church, than avoided by it.

Aaron,

I agree with you that the differing covenants between the Jews and the Christians will make little difference in their suffering as they go through the Tribulation. We are both already undergoing varying degrees of anti-Semitism and anti-Christianism - both get you killed in a lot of places in this world. That will only increase, particularly in the West, where Semites and Christians are only superficially tolerated.

My main statement that I was trying to make is that the Jews agreed to be judged by adherance to the Mosaic Law, whereas we Christians, including Messianic Jews, will be blessed to be judged by the righteousness of Christ, our sin-debt having been paid. In this, it is more an eternal matter than a present danger, although I feel them both very much, particularly for anyone, jew or gentile, who's faith is not in Jesus.

Blessings,

The Jews are not still under the Mosaic covenant. Each Jewish person is just as lost as any Muslim or atheist.

Hebrews 8

Jesus, High Priest of a Better Covenant
1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. 3For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." 6But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8For he finds fault with them when he says:

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
9not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more."

Is the writer of Hebrews speaking of a different covenant especially for the Jews? No. He is speaking of the New Covenant through Christ.

13In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

There are not two covenants: one for the Jew and one for the Gentiles. The Bible tells us plainly that God calls all men from every nation of men to Himself and that in Christ we are one. We are no longer Jew, Gentile, Slave, or Free, but one in Christ.

My main statement that I was trying to make is that the Jews agreed to be judged by adherance to the Mosaic Law, whereas we Christians, including Messianic Jews, will be blessed to be judged by the righteousness of Christ, our sin-debt having been paid.

I need clarification on the above statement. Can any Jews obtain redemption through the Mosaic Law?

I need clarification on the above statement. Can any Jews obtain redemption through the Mosaic Law?

The covenant given on Mount Sinai was never intended to redeem anyone in any generation. This is the purpose for the Mosaic law...

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law was only given to show man his sinfulness.

But there is another covenant that preceded the covenant made on Mount Sinai that did redeem the remnant...Paul teaches this in...

Romans 11

5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

In Christ
Jeff