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The Rapture - A False Hope

S
sermonindex

Saints,

I encourage you to watch this video:
http://xianz.com/watch/view_video.php?viewkey=a9e42e4511de6f678aa8

I encourage you to read also these 2 articles I wrote:

[b]TRIBULATION COMING TO AMERICA? by Greg Gordon[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14227&forum=16

[b]THE CHURCH THAT WOULD NOT SUFFER! by Greg Gordon[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13855&forum=16&6

I believe with all my heart that we are going to enter into times of persecution world-wide for [b]all christians[/b], we will not escape this with the rapture. If there is a pre-tribulation rapture it will none the less feel as though we are going to the tribulation before the rapture happens. God help us with our false security, I see it so strongly in these videos and books that are being produced to a "western" church that does not want to suffer.

As Christians we will NOT suffer the wrath of God, but we WILL suffer the wrath of man to its fullest:

"then shall thy deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of ALL NATIONS FOR MY NAME'S SAKE." -Matthew 24:9

"Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you." -1 John 3:13

S
sermonindex

I agree with Greg in the fact that things are going to get worse, before they get better. The following is interesting information about the "teaching" of the rapture in the early Church.

When I pick up the Bible, and look at 1 Thes 4:13-18; 1 Cor 15:50-58; John 14:2-3; Col 3:4; 2 Thes 2:1; 1 John 3:2 1 Cor 1:7; & 13:12 I can personally see the teaching of the rapture.

However, the early Church at Thesalonica thought that they had missed the rapture because of all of the Tribulation (not the Great Tribulation, but they thought they were in the great tribulation) because of all that they were going through
[1 Thes 4:13].

We can all see what is taking place around the world and at home in the U.S.- what is evil in God's eyes is now good in fallen man's eyes. More so than at any other time that I have been alive on this earth.

Facts about the Church and teaching of the Rapture

For the first 1,500 years people didn’t read the Bible- it was printed in Latin and was prohibited from the people and could only be read by Monks. Until the reformation, and the works of Erasmus and Luther, and others, most people never knew what a Bible even looked like.

However, the rapture was taught by the early Church:

Imminence (the imminent return of Jesus Christ at any moment) was taught from AD 80-250)

Shepherd of Hermes taught about the “escape” of the Tribulation in the 2nd Century

Brother Dolicino taught pre-Trib in 1304 AD

Thomas Collier-describes it and refutes it in 1674

John Asgill—any moment Translation (Rapture)- 1700

Morgan Edwards (1744) Brown University- paper on the Pre-Tribulation rapture

Francis Gumerlock- 3 file drawers of matter taught in the middle ages about the rapture

The purpose of the rapture is to end the Church age- John 14:1-3; 1 Thes 4:13-18; Daniel 12:1-2

God bless,

Stever

Y
Yeshuasboy


sermonindex wrote:
Saints,

I believe with all my heart that we are going to enter into times of persecution world-wide for [b]all christians[/b], we will not escape this with the rapture. If there is a pre-tribulation rapture it will none the less feel as though we are going to the tribulation before the rapture happens. God help us with our false security, I see it so strongly in these videos and books that are being produced to a "western" church that does not want to suffer.

I strongly believe this statement.
I also believe that God wants His church to use the time He is so graciously giving His Church now, to prepare for those days that lie ahead. However, preparation is to be done in the Spirit and by the Spirit, not in the flesh.
I think Cyrus Schofield's opinion would probably differ than mine though in this area.
What's wrong with suffering though? As far as I can remember, it has always brought me much closer to God by teaching me not to rely on my own strength and understanding. Praise God :-D

An undeserving brother,

Richie

Y
Yeshuasboy

Heb 5:7 "Who in the days of his flesh,when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;"

Heb 5:8 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;"

Matthew Henry: "We should learn by all our afflictions a humble obedience to the will of God."

T
Tears_of_joy

"Today's church wants to be raptured from responsibility."
-L.Ravenhill

U
UniqueWebRev

I, like, totally agree!

Still, I'll take any hope of Rapture I can get, particularly when I'm sitting in a jail cell for talking about Roman's 1:19.

And I'm already on record for it.

Ah, well, I'll miss my stuff, my house, my garden, whatever dogs I have then, but so long as I have books, and my memory I'm fine. If they give me a bible too, just missing Romans 1:19, well I remember what it says! If I get nothing but my memory, my long term one is just fine! And The Holy Spirit gives me great songs too.

And dying - well, maybe not in America, not before the Anti-Christ, at least as a rule, but if so, I'm ready. And I'll get a crown out of it, and a close place to Jesus.

And that would be well worth it!

Blessings,

S
SDE

I agree with you, Greg. I have been encouraging my Christian friends to hide the Word of God in their hearts (i.e., memorize Scripture). Anti-Christ forces may be able to take our bibles away, but they cannot take what we have hidden in our hearts.

S
sermonindex

I recently heard someone say they believe in a pre-tribulational rapture but they also believe in pre-rapture tribulation (not the Great Tribulation). I tend to agree with them.

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:4-5

The night is coming...

L
lovegrace

Stever. "Rapture- A false hope" means something.

Lol. Sounds like Greg is a post-trib supporter.

Now, about your 'facts' where did the 'shepard of hermes' say this. Thats the ONLY one that taught pre-trib from your 'facts'.

Now about this belief that the 'church of Thesalonica' felt they 'missed' the rapture. Where is your evidence to support this? I've never heard that said before.

If your gonna state some pretty strong statements, I hope you can back them up with citations. Don't ask me to do the research because YOU said that.

And I can't find the infomation.

Chao.

P.S. After further look, it seems that the 'shepard of hermes' is an deutercanon book. Or 'false book'. So, that's not really a strong citation. Unless, I looked incorrectly. :-D

In Addition, to quote from a site "At the same time, second and third century writers of lists of canonical works sometimes included disputed writings that were eventually rejected like the apocalyptic work The Shepherd of Hermes." [url=http://oldweb.uwp.edu/academic/english/canary/canon.html]Citation[/url]

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sermonindex

Roniya wrote:
The night is coming...

I remember someone speaking on Isaiah 21:11-12
[i][color=000099]11 The burden against Dumah.He calls to me out of Seir,
“Watchman, what of the night?
Watchman, what of the night?”
12 The watchman said,
[b]“The morning comes, and also the night.[/b]
If you will inquire, inquire;
Return! Come back!”
[/color][/i]

They remindied us that the Jewish day [i]starts[/i] with the evening!

But the Day is coming too!


Jeannette

S
staff

Hi,
The title of this post is wrong in the sense that what the bible calls our "blessed hope" has been turned into "a false hope".
Where your opinion on when the rapture happens is not important because it still remains our "blessed hope" no matter whether it is before,in the middle or after!How do I know this because the bible describes it so.
[size=xx-small][color=CC0000]Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;[/color][/size]
Its our hope no matter where the rapture comes and no matter whether we go through tribulation or not and no matter whether that tribulation is the great tribulation or not.
I think the title is a bit naughty! and may cause confusion.
After saying that I get what your saying that alot of christians seem to believe that we will be saved out of all tribulation and everything will be rosy but I think if we studied about the rapture we can see that belief is wrong.So many christians are going through tribulation as we speak throughout the world unto death some of them.Change the title not the scripture!
Rgds staff

S
sermonindex

Thanks Greg. Very humbling articles.

S
staff

Hi,
As to the other questions raised by the post,The condition of the world prior to any deliverance?The difficulties in following God and when will deliverance come.

Jesus clearly gave Lot and Noah as examples in Luke.The Genesis account of Lot clearly explains what its going to be like,its bad and they escape by the skin of their teeth!Noah their witness is ignored totally.Its bad conditions,things are bad, things get worse but deliverance comes.

And to when deliverance comes:It will be [color=0000FF]before [/color]Judgement like in the flood and sodom and gomorah."Until the day" and "But the same day"
God would not judge until his people were delivered in the two examples Jesus gave.Not some preacher of reputation but Jesus himself.

Luk 17:24\t\tFor as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

\tLuk 17:25\t\tBut first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

\tLuk 17:26\t\tAnd as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

\tLuk 17:27\t\tThey did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, [size=xx-small][color=FF0000]until the day[/color][/size] that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

\tLuk 17:28\t\tLikewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;


\tLuk 17:29[size=xx-small][color=990000]But the same day [/color][/size]\t\t that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
T
\tLuk 17:30\t\tEven thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.[

I think God has to go back to deal with Isreal in the end and to deal with the world.He has to take us out to do that.Post Great Tribulation rapture is a non starter unless he's rapturing the Jews!
There will be tribulation and hard times however,

rgds Staff

S
sermonindex

The title of this post is wrong in the sense that what the bible calls our "blessed hope" has been turned into "a false hope".

Brother,

My intention is putting the title for this thread was not to nullify a "rapture" for that will happen no matter what position we hold. But to address a abuse and "false hope" or rather "escapism" mentality without suffering any persecution or harm. So [b]much[/b] of the modern "rapture" teaching is a false hope IN THE WAY it is being taught. Thank you for your careful observerance of this and I do not intend to stumble anyone in their "great hope" of God coming back to bring us up with him forever. What a glorious day that [b]will[/b] be!

S
staff

hi,Regarding below :I realise that totally and agree with you in totally in the point you are making,Deliverance will be more like jumping into a lifeboat rather than getting picked up by luxury yacht!

[size=xx-small]My intention is putting the title for this thread was not to nullify a "rapture" for that will happen no matter what position we hold. But to address a abuse and "false hope" or rather "escapism" mentality without suffering any persecution or harm. So much of the modern "rapture" teaching is a false hope IN THE WAY it is being taught. Thank you for your careful observerance of this and I do not intend to stumble anyone in their "great hope" of God coming back to bring us up with him forever. What a glorious day that will be![/size]
With Love
Staff

K
kerrylou

The notion that the rapture allows you to escape tribulation is wrong. It is misleading to suggest that the rapture leads to false hope when it is a misunderstanding of the rapture and its purpose that leads to false hope.

I am no "theologian" but I understand this: all who follow Christ will suffer persecution. But I also believe in a pretribulation rapture that removes God's people before the great tribulation of the world when God pours out His wrath upon the unrepentant.

When put in its proper perspective there is no false hope.

Kerry

R
rowdy2

REPLY: To Greg:

The twelve apostles were sent by Jesus to warn the house of Israel of their coming judgement and destruction. I believe that the house of Israel went through the “ great tribulation” on the day of the Lord on the day of judgement on their generation. There were 144,000 of the Elect that escaped out of the cities by leaving behind all earthly possessions and fleeing when they saw what was described by Daniel. I believe they were the remnant that God takes out of every generation when that generations iniquity is full.

Matthew 24: 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


I believe the day of the Lord will come to this generation when the present generations enquiry is full.
I believe that a remnant will be saved from the great tribulation that will come when the Lord shall judge this generation.
I believe I will live in the mist of tribulation hidden in the rock until the time I am called home.
I believe that tribulation increases in the last days of every generation so I pray that I to will be able to stand by faith like Shadrach , Meshach and Abednego.

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lastblast

However, the rapture was taught by the early Church (the imminent return of Jesus Christ at any moment) was taught from AD 80-250)
:


Hi Stever, actually the Early Church Fathers taught a VERY different form of Imminence than what is taught in pre-tribulational churches. Such churches today preach that we will escape persecution by Anti-Christ. The Early Church taught that the Church would suffer persecution by Anti-Christ and THEN the Lord would deliever those on earth still alive and surviving (which actually is a picture of I Thess. 4:14-17----the Greek "alive and remain" means left surviving all around).

Also, if you read the entire text of Hermes, you will see that this "rescue" Hermes talks about is aligned with Mt. 24:31-----the gathering of the live on earth and the "dead" in heaven----again another picture of I Thess. 4:14-17 that some teach is a pre-trib rapture, but is actually the second coming of Jesus when He comes in Glory to gather ALL that belong to Him.

L
lastblast

And to when deliverance comes:It will be before Judgement like in the flood and sodom and gomorah."Until the day" and "But the same dayGod would not judge until his people were delivered in the two examples Jesus gave.Not some preacher of reputation but Jesus himself."

The Jews that come to faith in Christ are of the same Body that we are. (Rom. 11, Eph. 2:12-22). God will not come to rescue some of His children, but leave those who are "in the womb" to suffer what many say is "His wrath". We will remain until the "END". Remember the parable of the 1 lost sheep. He did not take the others to safety before going out to look for the one lost, He left them all in the WILDERNESS. When He found the one lost sheep He THEN took them ALL home to celebrate.........and so it shall be when He comes again. We will be left in the "wilderness" until He finds ALL the sheep that belong to Him---all that the Father gave to Him (Jn. 6). Then He will gather all that belongs to Him together (Mt. 4:30-31, Mk. 13:27, Eph. 1:10, James 5:7).

In regards to the judgment that will fall: if we look at what happened to both S&G and the world in Noah's day---------ALL the people not in places of safety DIED. Destruction was COMPLETE. This is not the picture of the pre-trib rapture teachings. They teach people will STILL be able to come to Jesus. Actually, the pictures of Lot and Noah are pictures of the Second Coming. THAT destruction will be complete. ALL that are not "in Christ" (in the ARK), will be COMPLETELY destroyed----II Thess. 1:7-10).

R
rowdy2

Consider the years of many generations we are only special because Jesus died for our sins and reconciled the repentant to our Heavenly Father. I don’t know when the final generation will come but when it does our Lord and Savior will be the victor and the tares will be gathered out of the world first and burned. Eddie
Matthew 1: 38-42
The field is the world, the good seed are the children of the kingdom, but the tares are the children of the wicked one, the enemy that sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Deuteronomy 32: 7-20 KJV
Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations, ask thy father, and he will shew thee, thy elders, and they will tell thee. When the most high divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness, he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings
So the Lord alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields, and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock, butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat, and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.
But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness, then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the rock of his salvation. They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. They sacrificed unto devils, not to God, to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. Of the rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

P
psalm1

hi Greg, Igot a little problem with the header but it has flushed out the preeezies and the posties. I personally am pre trib.I think the post tribs will be the most surprised people on the face of the earth.I mean when they are caught up with us.Well I dont know maybe God will honor their faith and let them stay.Over the years this debate has not evolved much. It seems to me nobody is persuaded on either side.Have you ever heard a post trib teaching? I never have. All I have ever heard is why the pre tribs are wrong. The post tribs are like a man on a mission,trying to correct false doctrine.Lets play out a post trib "hand".Lets take their position that a rapure does exist but God wants to wait till the last minute.Ok now the antichrist has martyred all the christians and they are all gone. Kinda adds new meaning to the dead in christ rising first. anyway we which are alive and remain {all 2 of us] will be "caught up" [Oh my I just hate that term] with all the dead......Naaa Idont think so. Ok so thousands of us make it through the great trib. Now here comes Jesus on the white horses with the saints and we are caught up with Him . But wait! The horsess are coming right at us! Ok no problem I have received my glorified body. I can do a Roy Rogers and jump on a riderless horse, look in my saddle bag grab a wedding feast sandwich. Wolf it down in record time, and do battle with the antichrist from my white horse. Inever see heaven but thats allright a new jerusalem is comming down.As you cn see post trib has painted its self into a corner.they try to make the great tribulation a "center piece" and fail. The actual "center piece" is the bride grooms union with His bride.The rapture is His way to accomplish this.While the sold out ones are doing business in heaven the luke warmers find themselves in Gods glorious "second chance".They will be marytered and recieve the highest reward.The martyers crown. Do you see why post trib is basically an imposibility? also 2 other things if I take the post trib position no way will I pray "even so come Lord Jesus" Iwill be looking for either antichrist or tribulation, not Jesus.Also what about "surprise"?Ican now calculate Jesus' coming almost to the day. Ahhhh grasshopper now we know the core of post trib doctrine. David

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letsgetbusy

I grabbed a book when I was at the Holy Land Experience that was free with admission. I thought I was going to have found a clear version of the end times event from the popular pre-everything position, to at least begin to figure out exactly what the Bible says and I believe. Turns out the book is called the "Pre-wrath Position Explained."

Basically what Greg has said, the book explained that the church will face Satan's wrath; great tribulation, but the unsaved will face the wrath of God.

I can't get around certain verses with the idea that no born again believer will face tribulation:

---Matthew 26---

9:Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

21:For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

30:And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

R
rowdy2


Reply to Hal

I realize that I am in the minority but can you ponder the idea that our Father did judge His Church made with hands? The Word of God is full of passages that warned of the coming judgement of Israel. A clear picture is given of the judgement of a third part of the Jews and our Heavenly Father’s protection of the [Saints [or they that have eternal life no longer a little lower that angels. }


Revelation 12

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven a woman clothed
with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her
head a crown of twelve stars

And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and
pained to be delivered.

And there appeared another wonder in heaven and behold a
great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and
seven crowns upon his heads.

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and
did cast them to the earth and the dragon stood before the
woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her
child as soon as it was born.

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations
with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God, and
to his throne.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place
prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand
two hundred and threescore days.

And there was war in heaven Michael and his angels fought
against the dragon and the dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not neither was their place found any more in
heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called
the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world he was
cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with
him.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come
salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the
power of his Christ for the accuser of our brethren is cast
down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the
word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto
the death.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe
to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil
is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he
knoweth that he hath but a short time.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he
persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that
she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she
is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the
face of the serpent.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after
the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the
flood.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her
mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out
of his mouth.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war
with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments
of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. KJV


The Church not made with hands is a chaste bride holy and with out spot. Thank God, thank God Almighty and the Lamb our kingdoms foundation, walls and gates are named after the Saints so when you sit down in the House [KINGDOM OF DAVID]and pick up the Word of God you are fellowshiping with them. Eddie

R
rowdy2

Reply to Cindy

We aswered the knock and The Risen Glorified Christ Son of God came to us. It's His kingdom but many leave Him outside.

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Eddie

S
staff

Hi,reply to Lastblast

I have to disagree with you that destruction will be complete at the Second Coming:

[size=x-small]Rev 20:4\tAnd I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[/size]

If destruction was complete where and who did Christ reign over for a thousand years?The great tribulation which lasts three and half yrs is not a complete distruction anyway.
Also in the second coming Christ comes all the way to earth but in the rapture the saints meet him in the air.In the picture of sodom and gomorah in particular the pattern is to send in two messengers,just like the time of the end when the two witnesses are raptured just before God's Judgement begins.They had to be out of there before Judgement could start,but that judgement wasn't complete.
God has to deal with the Jews without us present in the end,similar to the Joseph and his family,

[size=x-small]Gen 45:1\t¶\tThen Joseph could not refrain himself before all them that stood by him; and he cried, Cause every man to go out from me. And there stood no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren.[/size]
Joseph revealed himself his family in private.

Besides this A rapture after the tribulation makes no logical sense,it has no reason to it.
[color=0000CC]Further more if sodom and gomorah and The Ark are a picture of the Second Coming then the earth is in a healthy state e.g they did marry,they eat,they drank(doesnt sound like they were distressed in any way,not bad considering Angels were pouring out vials of Judgement etc )[/color]

The people of Noah's Day were in no distress,neither were the residents of Sodom or Gomorah but when the Godly People were taken up Judgement came,Only then
Our blessed hope remains
rgds Staff

P
PaulBenson

Greg; I wholeheartedly agree that the notion of a rapture before the time of the great tribulation is not only a false hope but is also I feel one of the strongest sleeping pills the Church has ever swollowed.
The brother who suggested the pretrib rapture was believed by, and taught by, the early Church has obviously not spent much time reading the writing of those men.
I recommend highly a book offered for free which can be found at:

http://voiceofelijah.org/library/antichristdl.pdf

Bro. Harper give us a good look at the writings of a couple of early fathers who were 2nd generation diciples of the Apostle John. Hippolytus and Ireaneus. There is no hint of a pretrib rapture found in their words, in fact quite the opposite.

The pretrib rapture is lying man-made myth! It is not something that is explicitly taught by Scripture, it has to be taught by implication. (as are many other myths and false beliefs) I strongly exhort any who hold to this veiw to sincerely ask the Father to reveal the truth on this matter. It is NOT a harmless teaching, it influences folks think they dont need to prepare spiritually for the times to come because they think they wont be here.
Corrie Ten Boom said the ministers promoting the pretrib teaching are the false teachers Jesus warned us would deceive the Church in the last days! She witnessed first hand the damage this teaching did in China. When times of tribulation hit China many believers stumbled in ther faith when faced with hardships they were not ready to face because they were told dont worry you wont be here, so the preparation of heart necessary to face such times never took place in ther walk. They had ignored God's dealings with them in these areas per the instruction they recieved from deceived ministers preaching escapism.
Also important to know is that the misguided folks who had taught the pretrib myth lost all credibility as ministers and were shunned as false teachers! BEWARE! Those teaching this pretrib nonsense in our nation will face the same treatment in times to come!
Greg, thank you for your efforts to help people see the truth of this matter and your grace in handling those of a differing opinion. May God help us a Body to 'prove all things and hold fast that which is good'. Lord Bless.

S
staff

Hi,
Just A question are you against pretribulation rapture teaching or rapture teaching in total?

[size=x-small]BEWARE! Those teaching this pretrib nonsense in our nation will face the same treatment in times to come![/size]

The followers of Elijah didnt believe in rapture either and against the advice of Elisha searched in vain for a few days in the wilderness looking for him.These were prophets who came under the ministry of Elijah and still didnt believe God had taken him away.

[size=x-small][color=003300]NOT a harmless teaching, it influences folks think they dont need to prepare spiritually for the times to come because they think they wont be here[/color][/size]
[color=3300FF]
On the above Elijah knew for a long period of time that he would not see death but would be raptured and this did not effect him or his ministry negatively and as we know Elijah was prepared spiritually.After all The new testament says Elijah was man like us.
This arguement that their is no rapture beacause it will effect us negatively is unscriptural and not a valid argument at all[/color]
However it a mistake to teach the rapture and not point out that this doesnt mean we dont go through trials and persecution perhaps even on to death
before the time of the great tribulation,
perhaps thats the mistake they made in China
Rgds Staff

L
lastblast

I have to disagree with you that destruction will be complete at the Second Coming:

Hi Staff,

When I spoke of the days of Noah and Lot, it is true that all who were not in a place of safety were KILLED. There were no survivors. The concept of a pretrib rapture(where Billions are left on the earth at the time of a "snatching") does in no way align with the scenerio of either the flood or of the destruction of S&G. So, with that in mind, we would need to ask ourselves what Jesus meant then? If we are to seek through scripture, we will see some things spoken about the Second Coming of Jesus-----II Thess. 1:6-10----we see that the angels take vengance on them that know not Jesus or obey Him.

In Rev. 11:15-18, we see at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, Judgment has come---upon ALL of mankind. Those who belong to the Lord are rewarded. Those who do not belong to the Lord are judged.

In Rev. 6:9-11 we see that judgment of wicked mankind will not come until the last martyr has been martyrd......again, reaffirming II Thess. 1:6-10.

In II Pet. 3:9 we see that when the Day of the Lord comes(as a thief) it will result in utter destruction/annilation. Notice what Peter says immediately before that: this day will not come until those who are to repent and believe come to the faith.........this is what Jesus is waiting for. Pre-trib teaches after Jesus snatches away His church, many will come to faith during the tribulation. That contradicts this passage in which we see Jesus waiting for all that will belong to Him to repent.

God has to deal with the Jews without us present in the end,similar to the Joseph and his family

Why are we not supposed to be present? In Rom. 11:30-32, it shows that the Jews were present when we came to faith. Why must we be gone when they come to faith? If they are to come to Christ, they will be "in Him" just as much as present day believers are "in Him"........they will be members of The Church, aka: His Body.

The people of Noah's Day were in no distress,neither were the residents of Sodom or Gomorah but when the Godly People were taken up Judgement came,Only then
Our blessed hope remains


The people in Noah's day were WICKED, they were murderers, adulterers, vile......and you don't believe they were in stress? I disagree. The same can be said of S&G.

You are correct, that when the Godly people are safe, then God's Vengeance will be unleashed---but to me, there's no credible evidence in scripture that this will occur before the second coming of Jesus in Glory with all His Holy Angels, when they will separate the Godly from the Ungodly (Mt. 3:12) and then cleanse the earth with fire as Pet. speaks of in II Pet. 3:10. The wheat and the tares will grow TOGETHER until the angels come and separate them, at the end of this world (Mt. 13:37-43).

I think some are in Great error, believing their Hope is in the timing of His coming rather than the fact that He IS coming and that He will keep all those who belong to Him, whether He keeps them through their death(natural or unnatural) or allows them to be the few who are alive and remaining when He comes. Blessings.......

:-)

P
psalm1

hi everyone, Just wanted to add that the 5 foolish and 5 wise virgins also point to a pre trib rapture.there are so many dilemas for trying to make post trib rapture fit.No one knows the hour of Jesus coming. It is a surprise. But if I try to combine the rapture in with the second coming,at the end of the tribulation,cant I calculate his approximate return? As for the china pastors regrets,I think it is a cop-out to blame the rapture teaching on anything.It is scripture.He should have taught them about afflictions and persecutions.period.He would have done good to have read fox's book of maryters to them.Isnt it in 1 thes.where it says therefore comfort one another with these words?Oh wait now i see what your getting at,your saying the pre trib rapture is false doctrine and its so false that somehow it is to blame for the persecuted christians loss of hope. this has to be a first.

L
lastblast

Hi Psalm,

I think the problem with the 10 virgins being about a pre-trib rapture is what happens when the virgins that are left come to the door knocking? This is a point I have yet to see a pre-trib teacher address. Do we find anywhere in scripture prior to the final judgment where Jesus turns away those who come to Him? Does He ever say to anyone who comes to Him (signifying they are His), "I know you not".??

"all that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Jn. 6:37

Jesus says that of that day and hour no man knows, but we will know the season........if we are watching the changes. I am a postie and would never say I could calculate His coming. I can't, nor can anyone---- and all who have tried in the past were wrong.

Paul teaches the saints that they are to "rest" with the rest of the saints(II Thess. 1:6-10).......knowing that judgment upon the wicked IS COMING as well as the promise of Jesus' coming in Glory to be admired by His saints and glorified in them (us)..........notice the timing of this: When the angels take vengeance on them that do not know God or obey Him. This happens when Jesus returns with His Holy Angels----at the Second Coming. When the wheat and tares will be separated.......the wheat is gathered into his "barn".........the chaff is burned up (Mt. 3:12)........ Blessings. :-)

L
letsgetbusy

Rowdy2,

First off, brother, I haven't talked to you before, so just know that I am not carrying an agenda by asking you this, I just want to know your opinion on what you said to get a clear grasp on your position.

I posted Rev 12 before so that everyone could explain Rev 12's events in order, and it didn't seem to be a popular post: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14091&forum=36#108710

So please explain:

---Who or what is:---

1) the woman
2) the man child
3) the woman's fleeing
4) Satan's casting from heaven
5) the woman's wings
6) going out of Satan to make war with the seed

---What point of Rev 12 is the rapture?---

---What events these verses are describing:---

1"the woman fled into the wilderness"

2"they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb"

3"the devil is come down unto you"

4"he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child"

5"to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle"

6"the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed"

P
psalm1

hi lastblast, went back and read the 10 virgin parable.I noticed something new. "the door was shut" Also didnt this happen with noah's ark? If you get into who is saved and who isnt then I really dont know.I was mainly referring to the rapture.A cry was heard at midnight. 5 wise had oil . They were allowed to go with the groom. they left. the oters stayed. they went into a room and closed the door. The rapture.I can belabor any analogy. I think you have to keep it simple.Example- I have never seen an evangelist with a literal bag of seed. Or God put a literal coin in anybodys hand. also never saw a christian actually bury a coin. But to address your point of the virgins being shut out. Isee one possible answer right away-Jesus said I will spew you out of my mouth.God hates hypocricy, look at lots wife and annanias and saphira.Look at Peters early ministry.My point is you seem to think "5 left out" trumps bridegroon, bride,oil or lack of oil, 5 leaving,5 staying.When I read this I say to myself "wow i better be ready"..Somewhere i read There will be some saved as through fire . they will be saved but their works burned up. is this correct? Also there is a group of christians that Jesus says "depart from me i never knew you" .... "workers of Inequity" When I look at all of this I say to myself"Hey boy you beter stay on fire" I hope this doesent sound sarcastic and mean - I sure dont want it to.... I love all of you, David

R
rowdy2

Reply to Hal

I think we agree on much but the timing is were I find myself in the minority because all of The book of the Revelation of Christ as I understand it is past tense until chapter 21 when our church appears in the new heaven and the new earth.


I agree with you the woman is the church or temple. The New Testament temple built on the ruins of the old one. Moses and the law were taken out of the way and we are dead to Moses and the Law which our Lord fulfilled and we are free to wed another and our will being subject to our Lord. We too are begotten by the Holy Spirit and are born again and wed to Christ Jesus spiritually and the members of the of the body of Christ? We are subject to our Lord the Word of God that is manifested on earth in the Body of Christ.

I agree with you that Christ is the man child that is the promised seed of Abraham brought through the spiritual birthright of the chosen of God their Ishi who we are also the spiritual children of by the promise.

The woman fleeing is God’s remnant fleeing Jerusalem being warned by Daniel the prophet they escaped the destruction and slaughter in the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans. When they saw High Priest appointed by the Romans standing in the Temple of God. They that had understanding fled out of Judea because by faith they knew that the Day of the Lord ( Judgement of their church ) was upon them.

Satan being cast out of heaven is the spirit of this world that has dominion in each of us until its cast out and we are born again and the Holy Spirit our heavenly Father gives to them that ask him replaces it is the New Testament reality.

I would say the wings that carried the remnant of Jerusalem to safety were faith and obedience.

Once the spirit of this world is cast out and the kingdom of God has come to a Christian we must occupy our earthly temple and resist the spirit of the world ( Satan ).

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
KJV
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference, for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

KJV
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

NKJ
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

I too know in part. Eddie

S
staff

Hi Lastblast,
I think but may be wrong that both of us agree that their will be a tribulation period called the great tribulation after which Jesus returns(The second coming).My point is that the passages below could not be the second coming because they are clearly not living after a time of tribulation.Normal life is going on highlighted by Jesus.The people in both Noah's time and in Sodom and Gomorah are carrying on in an normal fashion eating,drinking,marrying etc
The passage below is about another coming! either that or there is no great tribulation.
[color=990000]
Mat 24:37\t\tBut as the days of Noe , so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
\tMat 24:38\t\tFor as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
AND
Luk 17:28\t\tLikewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;[/color]
Rgds Staff

S
staff

Hi Lastblast,
[size=xx-small]
Why are we not supposed to be present? In Rom. 11:30-32, it shows that the Jews were present when we came to faith. Why must we be gone when they come to faith? If they are to come to Christ, they will be "in Him" just as much as present day believers are "in Him"........they will be members of The Church, aka: His Body.[/size]
Just to answer the above question,Daniel where we get the seventh wk originally is about God dealing with Isreal.The Church aren't present for the first 69 wks and their not present for the 70th wk either as that wk is for God dealing with Isreal.
Why should they be present for the 70th when the church isnt there for the first 69.
Rgds Staff

S
staff

Hi
Just wanted to agree with this statement below and also that I heard a teacher say that the virgins parable couldnt happen during the tribulation as you could not buy anything unless you had the mark of the beast.

[size=xx-small][color=0000CC]went back and read the 10 virgin parable.I noticed something new. "the door was shut" Also didnt this happen with noah's ark? If you get into who is saved and who isnt then I really dont know.I was mainly referring to the rapture[/color][/size]
rgds staff

C
Christinyou

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Israel has always been God's people. Not son's of God birthed by the Christ that is in them. One a created race and the other a birthed race.
That is why the separation of the rapture.

He will write His words in their hearts, not born again by the Word of God Himself, "Jesus Christ In you the Hope of Glory." A complete new race of people.

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We the New Creation race of God's children will never know any man in the flesh again, for we are in the Spirit. The promises of God to Israel must be fulfilled in the Flesh by and in which they were promised.

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

That is why the rapture or catching up of the born again spirit filled son's of God in Christ Jesus must come before the promises be fulfilled to Israel. We have no promises except Israel brought Christ into the world to save it, and His voice and a trumpet call.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In Christ: Phillip

R
rowdy2

I know no other man in the flesh but I have ears to hear the truth in the Word of God. The only truth I can build a life on is precept upon precept from the Word of God. I am a born again Christian and came to the Light and became a child of God. My spirit is the only thing that has eternal life and will not return to dust with the flesh that has already been condemned and is already dying and I will be with Jesus on that very day in paradise. If Jesus comes today my spirit will leave this sinful flesh and meet Him in the air to be one spirit with Him and the ones who preceded me in death.. There is no last minute escape for the flesh, the flesh is a part of this world that is in bondage to sin. There is no covenants with death. Accept God’s reconciliation walk out of darkness by repenting and professing with your mouth that Jesus is the resurrected born again begotten Son Of God that proved all the religions of works in the world wrong and this sect of modern day sadducees that don’t believe in the resurrection and the spiritual kingdom. They recite religious historians and other persons foolishness. If one returned from the dead and showed them His nail pierced hands they would not believe the Gospel of the kingdom. They are still married to this worlds carnal wisdom and the beast that must be given its worldly manna. The flesh has the mark of the beast ( Covetousness ) and sells its riches for fame or fortune but the spirit of charity freely gives.

Eddie

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