Any Brother who says he is without Sin is a What?

"HE is faithful to complete the Work HE has begun in you ."......

I am confused about some of the positional truths in the epistles will someone educate me ? I have been to Bible school that made me academic. I have asked church leaders and they are confrontive or clueless. Where are the fathers in the faith to disciple and encourage? . Is it OK to come to the conclusion that we just dont Know?....It drives me to read my bible and pray everyday..Is this a generation of the Blind leading the Blind? I have heard alot about these topics from Godly people but they all have something different to say.I can see the fruit in all of thier lives but they all interpret these differently.I was raised Baptist,recommited my life at a calvinistic church ,went to a fundemental baptist seminary and I know serve at a Calvary Chapel (pentecostal).I have grown in my walk with Jesus thru them all.Trust me it was and is a Breaking process.My question is can a believer really live a completely "SET APART " Life and still sin? I know Pauls struggle," Revenhill once siad to my father in law that "if you "deep down" WANT to Love Jesus More then you do now then you are Saved." I am young and seeking Godly counsel if your not walking with Jesus please do not confuse the Issue with many Idle words.The truth is if you cant teach it to where a child can understand you most likely dont know what your saying.

Great.Sorry I am new to this.

Any brother who says he is without sin is a sinner... that's in 1 John.

He is faithful to complete the work He has begun in you... I think the main question for American Christians is 'has {He} begun a work in you?'

I've been listening to a lot of Paul Washer recently, there are nearly 100 of his sermons on this site. He's in his prime now, he spent years as a missionary in Peru, and around the world.

If you like Leonard Ravenhill then you'll like brother Washer, he sat at the feet of Ravenhill, he reads his bible for the answers... he yearns to be closer to God -but is bluntly frank about his sin and how far we are from the way God wants us to be.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=442] Paul Washer Sermons[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=12877&commentView=itemComments]What's Wrong With American Christianity[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=12878&commentView=itemComments]What is the Grace of the Gospel?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=12879&commentView=itemComments]How Can You Have Assurance?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=12880&commentView=itemComments]The Holiness of God[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=12881&commentView=itemComments]Practical Holiness[/url]

Plus besides his affinity for Leonard Ravenhill, Paul also has a strong affinity of Keith Green and AW Tozer... and he's a Southern Baptist, and a missionary = currently my favorite preacher.

Ian, how do you fill in this blank?

Anyone who says that the blood of Christ cleanses them from [b]all[/b] sin is a _____.

Hi Blunt,

I am young and seeking Godly counsel if your not walking with Jesus please do not confuse the Issue with many Idle words.The truth is if you cant teach it to where a child can understand you most likely dont know what your saying.

My simple advice would be- strive to walk in the Spirit that you may be like Jesus Christ. This is all the holiness you and I can ever possibly hope to attain. Anything else is earthly at best and demonic at worst. It is not about a lot of the silly things we often think it is that puffs one up against another in the name of humility. It is simply being like Jesus.

As far as you are from Jesus Christ is as far as you are from perfection. He is the 'Canon'- He is the measuring rule. Not Finney, No Moody, Not Ravenhill, Not Edwards, Poonen or any of these people as wonderful as their testimonies may have been. It is Jesus Christ [i]alone[/i]. We have to drill that into our heads or we will seek some holiness out in 'lah lah' land some place that has no biblical precedent whatsoever; a grasping after the wind. Yet, the fruit of the Spirit in harmony- that is Holiness. Like light into a prism breaks out from white to colors so also is holiness into the fruit of the Spirit. We need to be FULL of the Holy Ghost and walk in the Spirit. That is what we are called to do.

God Bless,

-Robert

Right on. Jesus did say Strive to enter thru the Narrow gate, But Heb 4 says for me to rest. So do I strive to rest?

Welcome Blunt,

I believe you have come to the right place.

Is it OK to come to the conclusion that we just dont Know?....

In many instances ... would encourage it! In many others it is only a matter of time if we are in diligent pursuit that we find this, Leonard Ravenhill expressed as much toward the end of his life in the proverbial [i]The more I know the more I realize how much I do not know[/i](Paraphrased).

But more specifically, the 'positional truth's' are often discussed here in great length and great breadth, many sermons of a variety of perspective and articles as well. All that may either add to the confusion or be a great blessing to glean from, pray it is the later.

I have grown in my walk with Jesus thru them all.

My question is can a believer really live a completely "SET APART " Life and still sin?

If I may turn it around a bit ...
Can we live [i]today[/i] completely set apart?

Where I think we cause ourselves more undo harm and have already been rebuked for it is in;

[i]Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.[/i]

Casting off to the future by worries and anxiety, even whether or not we 'can' or will 'sin' in the future ... Today is enough of it's own trouble and today is enough of an opportunity to walk after the spirit.

Good word !
Thanks for the encouragement.

It sounds like you guys have learned to listen ,trust me its refreshing.

Parsly,

John 1:8-10

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I'm not a big fan of 'Christian Perfection.' Since this is a thread for encourating our new friend here, let's stick away from arguing a topic like this in front of him.

I have heard alot about these topics from Godly people but they all have something different to say.I can see the fruit in all of thier lives but they all interpret these differently.

Years ago my phone was disconnected. The Holy Spirit told me to leave it off and learn to listen to him. I couldn't call my friends and therefore couldn't hear the six or seven counsel me with their wisdom. I would spend hours reading my bible and praying. I was basically handfed by the Spirit in the bible which is God's word. I was hugely blessed by this,beyond measure, running down you might say.

1 John 1:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I see these Scriptures to be speaking of our carnal man. We live in corruption now, but in the ressurection we will recieve the perfection that was promise to Abraham and his Seed.

This teaching by John has little to do with "positional theology." It has to do with real life experiencies brought by the washing of His word in our lives. Those who say we are now prefected in Christ and say that they have "attained' perfection in this life do not have the word of God in them. For if the word was in them, they would be experiencing...

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The power of His word sanctifying us, showing us the thoughts and intents of our heart, will demonstrate to us our corruption always. But as we submit to His teaching us day by day...

He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

In Christ
Jeff

Paul teaches about this in 1 Corinthians 11:

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and *blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks *in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the *Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

There is a need for those who abide in Christ to consider the above teaching very carefully.

What do the Scriptures say?

In Christ
Jeff

I think Hebrews 4 also says, "Strive to enter" that rest.

Ephesians 6 says, "Put on the whole armour that you may be able to withstand" (first) and then to "Stand" (second).

Once you have entered all striving ceases.

Our position in Christ, according to Ephesians is that we are "seated in heavenly places in Him". When you are seated are you striving, or at rest?

Just some thoughts,

Kerry

rookie: 1 John was written by John for the Christian church, not for carnal people... I really recommend that you listen to the Paul Washer sermons listed here, he goes into great detail on this.

Brother Ian suggested Paul Washer as a source of enlightenment concerning carnal people or carnal christians...

I don't know about Paul Washer but I do know what Paul of the Bible teaches in Scripture...

1Cor. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Also once again, Paul teaches about the reason of communion...

1 Corinthians 11:

1Cor. 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

In terms of sin, we all are corrupt until the day we are made perfect by Him at ressurection.

What does Scripture say?

In Christ
Jeff

In terms of sin, we all are corrupt until the day we are made perfect by Him at ressurection.

What does Scripture say?

2Cor. 9:8 (KJVS) And [b]God is able[/b] to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Eph. 3:20 (KJVS) Now unto [b]him that is able[/b] to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Phil. 3:21 (KJVS) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby [b]he is able[/b] even to subdue all things unto himself.

2Tim. 1:12 (KJVS) For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that [b]he is able[/b] to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Heb. 2:18 (KJVS) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, [b]he is able[/b] to succour them that are tempted.

Heb. 7:25 (KJVS) Wherefore [b]he is able[/b] also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jude 24 (KJVS) Now unto [b]him that is able[/b] to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, If we are condemned to the corruption of sin until the resurrection we have serious case of misrepresentation in these verses. Incidentally each one of these verses uses a cognate of 'dunamis' which is translated 'able'. It all links with the great promise of the New Covenant...“But [b]you shall receive power[/b] when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; [b]and you shall be witnesses to Me[/b] in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”” (Acts 1:8 NKJV)

In terms of sin, we all are corrupt until the day we are made perfect by Him at resurrection.

I love this quote from Reader Harris, a English barrister and preacher from the mid-20th century: "The proper field for discussion is not whether or not any individual Christian lives unintermittently without committing sin. That is a matter between his own conscience and God and he is not called upon to give account of himself in this respect to him fellowmen. [b]What we ought to discuss is this: Has God made or has He not made an adequate provision for complete deliverance in this life from any sin? To argue that God has made an adequate provision, but that, for some reason or other, no Christian ever receives the benefit of it, is really to prove that it is inadequate and therefore useless.[/b]

Thank God we have a powerful Saviour, who is able to save to the uttermost.

[i]This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.[/i]

Still recall Charles Stanely expounding on this matter many years ago. In essence his argument was "Can you go an hour without sinning? Half a day? All day? Ten minutes? Why, sure you can!"

Perhaps it's the object of our concentration and focus that keeps us preoccupied with tomorrows problems today and yesterdays failures presently. The memory is not dissolved and the Holy Spirit is faithful to bring every needed nuiance to bear upon us if ...

[i]To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts[/i]

[i]That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind[/i]

[i]Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ[/i]

[i]Looking unto Jesus[/i]

[i]But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life[/i]

[i]If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.[/i]

[i]But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.[/i]

Put off put on.

Well it certainly doesn't say that. What a pathetic Saviour this would be. This is my Saviour...

Thanks for sharing this Ron. The emphasis is clearly on Christ being able to save. I think where we get in trouble is when we place the emphasis unnecessarily on ourselves. We need His strength to live victorious lives in this fallen world.

Mike's: Perhaps it's the object of our concentration and focus that keeps us preoccupied with tomorrows problems today and yesterdays failures presently. The memory is not dissolved and the Holy Spirit is faithful to bring every needed nuiance to bear upon us if ...

One thing I have always struggled with is keeping a log of days between stumblings. Just being honest. Almost like being on a roll for a while and then tripping at some point. So much of my measure of joy and victory has been by this model alone. I have needed to stop that and just abide in Him where my strength is and stop trying to boast in the calendar days of victory over some besetting sin. Talk about a roller coaster ride!

Has anyone here actually listened to any Paul Washer?

I have.

I have needed to stop that and just abide in Him where my strength is and stop trying to boast in the calendar days of victory over some besetting sin.

I am not saying that testimony is unimportant, not at all. I just want to make the point that somehow we have to get our eyes off ourselves and onto the Serpent on the pole! This is why I am always reluctant to be get dragged into the 'so what is your testimony' arguments. I think we must, in our understanding at least, separate between the revelation of God and our own experience. As a herald I must preach what God has said, even if the sky falls down. If the greatest believers in every age have a testimony that does not square with the plain statement of the word I must take my side with the word of God.

This is not being unrealistic but just defining the area where I will fight this battle. 'You shall be witnesses to me' was the promise and I don't want to be drawn into being a witness of my own experience or of a theology. I must and will lift up Jesus Christ as an at-point-of-need Saviour. To witness to a will-be Saviour can have little validity; a witness is someone who has already seen something.

My personal experience may be woefully inadequate or I may have had a 'good day' but neither can change the nature of New Covenant salvation. I do think that many personal testimonies to a 'sanctification experience' may be misguided. I don't dispute them but to faith they are irrelevent. Consequently for someone to disprove them is also irrelevent. In this I am 'a man of one book' and that book my Saviour. If he says "go and sin no more" that is enough for me. If his blood cleanses from all sin there must be a point in time when I am 'without sin', but I would never give this testimony; my testimony will always be that the blood of Christ cleanses me from all sin. To testify 'I am without sin' may be true but it is not expedient. However to testify that 'I am sinfully corrupt until the resurrection' cannot be a testimony to the one who saves his people from their sin.

People will always ask 'are you saying you are without sin'? My answer is always the same; He is able, He is faithful, He is sufficient.

I have.

Hi Ron,

At the risk of being even more pedantic than usual... this still puts you at risk of measuring how well you are maintaining your abiding, and consequently vulnerable to your own testimony.

I understand. Sometimes I think I am woefully in need of deliverance from Finneyism. The whole of the message is "look at yourself!" or "Am I measuring up?" or "Can a person possibly be saved and have this or that struggle?" This is how the Gospel was presented to me at an early age. It is almost a no-assurance do-it-yourself salvation. I am always asking myself- "how am I doing?" The real problem with it is that I have been taught since I was small that if I'm having a bad day I will miss the Rapture.

I know I am being a bit vulnerable and candid here, but there are possibly many many people who struggle in this area; especially folk who have an emphasis on repentance and revival. It's the whole 'loose canon' issue. If we don't get this repentance preaching tied down good it will sink our own ship! If it will help someone, so be it.

My personal experience may be woefully inadequate or I may have had a 'good day' but neither can change the nature of New Covenant salvation.

I am assuming you mean here that the basis of our salvation is not on what we do- but on what He has done?

thanks,

-Robert

My personal experience may be woefully inadequate or I may have had a 'good day' but neither can change the nature of New Covenant salvation.

I am assuming you mean here that the basis of our salvation is not on what we do- but on what He has done?

If his blood cleanses from all sin there must be a point in time when I am 'without sin', but I would never give this testimony; my testimony will always be that the blood of Christ cleanses me from all sin. To testify 'I am without sin' may be true but it is not expedient. However to testify that 'I am sinfully corrupt until the resurrection' cannot be a testimony to the one who saves his people from their sin.

It seems in the last 10 posts or so that there has been a bait and switch. Were we not talking about the issue of sin and man who says he has no sin?

We were not talking about the righteousness of Christ but the condition of man.

Why are we so fearful and fragile?

What does Scripture say of our situation in this life?

For what purpose is communion according to Scripture?

In Christ
Jeff

What is a Paul washer? Is that anything like a Bush basher?

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

What is a Paul washer? Is that anything like a Bush basher?

Brother, what does this statement have to do with this thread?

In Christ
Jeff

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

Quote: Jeff ask?

"What does Scripture say of our situation in this life?"

Romans 13:11-14 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Is this not our situation in Life?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Where are we today? 1 Corinthians 15:56-58 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Christ in you the Hope of Glory?

Yes, Praise God.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Is it not our perfection that Christ died for? That perfection is not in ourselves, it is In Christ Jesus who is our all in all. So how does God our Father see us? In Christ, since that is what God intended before the foundation of the whole world. Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In Christ? Praise God, Yes and Christ also in me as me and you, coming forth in this world that the works of Christ might be greater than His works before the Cross. Salvation

In Christ: Phillip

Jeff wrote, Quote:

Re:
by rookie on 2007/3/16 17:58:33

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:

What is a Paul washer? Is that anything like a Bush basher?

Brother, what does this statement have to do with this thread?

In Christ
Jeff

Jeff, This was written by iansmith in a previous post.

"Has anyone here actually listened to any Paul Washer"

I was just adding a little humor.

Sorry if it upset you. Yes I have heard Paul Washer. http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&Keyword=Paul%5EWasher

In Christ: Phillip

We were not talking about the righteousness of Christ but the condition of man.

You asked what the scriptures said so I posted a list.

Brother Phillip quoted:

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

Now this Scripture points to the post of this thread...

"Any Brother who says he is without sin is a ..."

Why does Paul instruct the believer to "make not provision for the flesh, to (fulfil) the lusts (thereof)?"

What does this say of our condition in this corrupt body?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ron wrote:

That is true but some of us believe in righteousness imparted as well as righteousness imputed.

The source of righteousness does not change the condition of our flesh...

That is where the choice is always before us...in this life.

1 John 1:

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is a conditional statement, "If we confess our sins." What does this say of a believer's position in this world before the ressurection?

In Christ
Jeff

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

It is not conditional on my part of confession, but on God that is faithful. It is Christ that makes us righteous, not my confession. He is the Advocate with the Father, not the confession.
He is the propitiation for our sins not the confession.

God is subjectively trustful that in or acknowledgement of God and communications with Him, we are cleansed from all unrighteousness. It has nothing to do with me, it is all of God in Christ Jesus. The only thing that is of me is to know that Christ is the propitiation of our sins. He is our atonement, our expiation, our propitiation of the sin of the whole world.
We must appropriate it and that comes by confessing that God is true and right in what He has done.

Jeff wrote: Quote "sins." What does this say of a believer's position in this world before the ressurection?"

That I stand perfect before God the Father by the Christ that is in me.

I agree with God that Jesus Christ Has made me clean.

Confessing that Jesus Christ is my atonement, not my confessing my atonement. Phillip

I just want to make the point that somehow we have to get our eyes off ourselves and onto the Serpent on the pole!

rookie on 2007/3/17 15:03:56
The source of righteousness does not change the condition of our flesh...

Also,

Romans 8:10-15 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

In Christ: Phillip

The see the book of 1 John as a test to see if we recognize our Lord's leading us. This is not a book based on positional theology but a book on relational theology.

When one uses Scripture in a way that says they have no sin to account for one is treading on thin ice...

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Now how can one say that he has no sin in light of this Scripture?

When Scripture is used to diminish our daily need for our Savior's commands, it seems that the flesh is not being put to death but allowed to live...

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1. What is the substance of the grace that empowers us to walk as He walked?

2. Can one depend on his flesh, his carnal mind to satisfy God's requirements?

If you can't answer question 1, you may be fooled by positional theology.

In Christ
Jeff

Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hbr 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hbr 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

In Christ
Jeff

Do you guys even come up for AIR ? This is the first and last Post I am originating.Pretty Deep stuff.Now Briefly explain to me how your view has made you closer to Jesus......Or atleast less then 50 words.
You guys should take all of this Knowledge and teach a sunday school class w/ 3-5 year olds.That might help you ....and those kids would be the best trained in Positional truths and atleast that knowledge would "Go Into all the world !"

Ill be checking back to see what you guys say, Thanks.

Now Briefly explain to me how your view has made you closer to Jesus......Or atleast less then 50 words.

As the Spirit shows me the ways that I fail to love as He loves us, I grow in understanding of my sinful condition. I decrease, and when He shows me His ways, He increases.

35 words...

In Christ
Jeff

Quote:

Jeff wrote,

""When one uses Scripture in a way that says they have no sin to account for one is treading on thin ice""

When one says that The Cross of Christ is not the only thing that accounts for sin, the Ice has broken.

This thread is: "Any Brother who says he is without Sin is a What"? A new creature in Christ Jesus. The Mystery revealed

We stand perfect before God the Father by the perfection He has born again in us, not by our position in sin but our position in Christ, which makes our relational position, son's of God.

If we say we have no sin we lie. If we say we are not perfect in Christ, we lie. I accept my perfection by the Christ in me that makes my sin of no consequence to the Father. "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect", this is not our mind set, or supposed to be. Not I am a sinner and Christ cannot make me anything else. Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

How?

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

2Cr 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Or should it say, as many as be sinful, be thus minded? God must reveal the Christ in you, just like He revealed Christ to Paul, but God shall even reveal anything otherwise minded to us, "as many as be perfect".

God does not want us sinners. He wants us perfect, that is why He put perfection Himself, Jesus Christ in us. Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Let us labor to be perfect, not to be a lost sinner waiting for the resurrection to be like Christ because of the Power of the Resurrection of Christ and His return in us as born again new creatures in Christ.

Satan's cry, you are a sinner and cannot be what God has made you to be.

In Christ: Phillip

Any Brother who claims to be without sin is either a lier, and therefore a sinner, or our eldest Brother, Jesus.

Blessings,

rookie on 2007/3/18 14:24:08
This is not a book based on positional theology but a book on relational theology.

However, I'm afraid I can't answer question 1. ...simply because I don't understand it.

Any Brother who claims to be without sin is either a lier, and therefore a sinner, or our eldest Brother, Jesus.

1John 1:8 (NKJV) ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1John 1:10 (NKJV) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. This is why I say I agree with rookie in that this is not supporting any kind of positional theology. Rather this is exposing positional theology and heading for reality theology. “Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.” (1John 3:7 NKJV) There is no basis for positional theology here. Righteous acts define righteous people.

The earlier three verses are really aimed at the person who takes refuge in positional theology. “If we say… one thing and do another…” we are walking in darkness, deceiving ourselves, making God a liar. The thing under scrutiny here is the man whose testimony does not square with his experience. It is not the testimony per se which is under attack here but the unrealistic testimony of a man who pretends to one pattern of life while he lives another.

The three verses above are interspersed with two verses which provide a very different kind of testimony;1John 1:7 (NKJV) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1John 1:9 (NKJV) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The condition of this testimony is that the testifier is ‘cleansed from every sin’ through the blood of Jesus Christ. His sins are remitted and he is cleansed from every unrighteousness because God is faithful and just… not because he has achieved some standard. What kind of testimony can the man give who has been ‘cleansed from every sin’, whose sins have been remitted ie removed and sent away, and whose every unrighteousness has been cleansed?

Can this man say ‘in spite of all that Christ has done I still have some sin remaining’? If my true testimony is that ‘I do have sin’ that itself is a ‘confession of sin’ which will immediately result in remission and cleansing, as long as the confession itself it not a theological statement but a true conviction of personal consciousness. It may well be true that at a specific point in time a believer will have to have ‘I have sinned’ but that is a confession which leads to cleansing and not a statement of a continual state.

Incidentally the words translated 'all' [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?hr=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blueletterbible.org%2Fsearch.html&icon=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blueletterbible.org%2Fgifs%2Fsearch_tools.gif&bgcolor=FFFFFF&textcolor=000000&linkcolor=39398C&vlinkcolor=0000FF&strongs=3956&language=G&anything.x=0&anything.y=0]pas[/url] in v7 and in v 9 is better translated 'every' ie each individual sin, each individual unrighteousness.

The only righteousness we have is in Christ. Any act of righteousness outside of Christ is of the Law.

Where does righteousness start? It starts in the soul/mind of the person and who is the righteous person, Me, not hardly. Christ has been made our righteousness, and this is our standing before God for those that are in Christ Jesus. Do we not have the mind of Christ? If so, how are we to know we are saved? If we are saved how can sin still reign in our mortal bodies with the Christ of God the Father who has birthed in us the righteousness of Christ Jesus who is made our righteousness? Sin and Holiness cannot liVe together. Either we are Holy because of the Christ in us or we are still lost sinners waiting for the judgment of death unto death, not death unto righteousness in Christ and life with God.

Is the Christ in you a sinner because he lives in the believer. God forbid. What part is the believer in sin? How are we able to stand perfect before God the Father? It is Christ, He is the Holiness of God personified in His life, His vicarious death atonement, It is Christ who is our life in resurrection and being born again by a Person and Seed of the Word, the ultimate Word of God is Christ. Surly you know that God would not make you righteousness Himself, because you are still a sinner.

1 Corinthians 1:28-31 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

"MADE RIGHTEOUSNESS" "MADE" Strong's Greek Dictionary
1096. ginomai
Search for G1096 in KJVSL
ginomai ginomai ghin'-om-ahee
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

And all else that pertains to Holiness and righteousness in the Word Who is Christ Jesus.

Christ is Made our righteousness, not my righteousness for I am the base things of this world, a lost sinner, to bring forth the things that are, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory and making us the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Not my glory but His Glory, that is His only Begotten son Born Again in us.

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, (the Devine Expression of Christ Himself) which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word (The Living Word of God spoken to us) of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The Word, Christ Himself born again in you the Hope of Glory, the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, making us fellow heirs with Christ. Sinners once hath God chosen but not sinners hath God chosen "to bring forth the things that are", Christ Persons, son's of God.

Always a sinner and without Christ still a sinner: Phillip My Glory is in God and Christ Jesus, Spoken by the Holy Spirit by the Christ that is in us to the spirit of all that we are, The Spirit of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
HOPE OF
Strong's Greek Dictionary
1680. elpis
Search for G1680 in KJVSL
elpiV elpis el-pece'
from a primary elpo (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence:--faith, hope.

GLORY
Strong's Greek Dictionary
1391. doxa
Search for G1391 in KJVSL
doxa doxa dox'-ah
from the base of 1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):--dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Peter 1:6-12 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

SIN?

If Christ in you is not Glory, I don't know what is: Phillip

Brother Blunt wrote:

You guys should take all of this Knowledge and teach a sunday school class w/ 3-5 year olds.

I thought about this, and I hope I have not taken your comment out of context. Many express this thought to one degree or another. Some will want to preach the elementary things of Christ. But this is not what God desires of the believer. Paul is always praying that we grow in understanding and wisdom...

This idea of understanding and wisdom is the foundation on which we grow or fall...thoughtout Scripture we find this pursuit to be held as the most important thing we can do as believers...

Why?
Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent [man] looketh well to his going.

Pro 14:18 The simple inherit folly: but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.

Why is this so important to God? Why should this be our aim?

In Christ
Jeff

2 Timothy 3:14-17 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

By the Faith in Christ and the Faith of Christ are all those that are in Christ brought to the righteousness of Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Christ is Made our righteousness, not my righteousness for I am the base things of this world, a lost sinner, to bring forth the things that are, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory and making us the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Not my glory but His Glory, that is His only Begotten son Born Again in us.

Does this mean that you believe like me that the flesh remains corrupt and that we must always look to the Holy Spirit to teach us of the things of Christ?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ron wrote:

The condition of this testimony is that the testifier is ‘cleansed from every sin’ through the blood of Jesus Christ. His sins are remitted and he is cleansed from every unrighteousness because God is faithful and just… not because he has achieved some standard. What kind of testimony can the man give who has been ‘cleansed from every sin’, whose sins have been remitted ie removed and sent away, and whose every unrighteousness has been cleansed?

I see this question in a different light...

First, I like your work on the word "pas" ...every ie. each individual sin, each individual unrighteousness...

To me this says that Christ is able to cleanse by leading one away from "each individual sin or type of unrighteousness.

This precept is taught in Psalm 119.

First we have this statement of this individual about those who have been forgiven of all iniquity...

Psa. 119:1 \tBlessed are the undefiled in the way,
\tWho walk in the law of the LORD!
2 \tBlessed are those who keep His testimonies,
\tWho seek Him with the whole heart!
3 \tThey also do no iniquity;
\tThey walk in His ways.

Next, we hear of this man's desire to be further cleansed because of his relationship with God...

4 \tYou have commanded us
\tTo keep Your precepts diligently.
5 \tOh, that my ways were directed
\tTo keep Your statutes!
6 \tThen I would not be ashamed,
\tWhen I look into all Your commandments.

You see this man's testimony speaks of being brought to a greater understanding of how to walk with God...

7 \tI will praise You with uprightness of heart,
\tWhen I learn Your righteous judgments.

The substance of these judgements give this man the ability to know what unrighteous acts are preventing him from walking closer with God.

Here is one confession that God revealed to him as judgement concerning his heart...

28 \tMy soul melts from heaviness;
\tStrengthen me according to Your word.
29 \tRemove from me the way of lying,
\tAnd grant me Your law graciously.

You see this man, as a result of his relationship with his Lord can truly say....

1John 1:8 (NKJV) ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We must not allow our hearts to deceive us. The only way to know this truth is by...

9 \tHow can a young man cleanse his way?
\tBy taking heed according to Your word.
10 \tWith my whole heart I have sought You;
\tOh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 \tYour word I have hidden in my heart,
\tThat I might not sin against You.
12 \tBlessed are You, O LORD!
\tTeach me Your statutes.
13 \tWith my lips I have declared
\tAll the judgments of Your mouth.

A true son is one that is chastened by the Father...

In Christ
Jeff

First, I like your work on the word "pas" ...every ie. each individual sin, each individual unrighteousness...

To me this says that Christ is able to cleanse by leading one away from "each individual sin or type of unrighteousness.

But you are talking about prevention while the scripture is talking about a cure. The verses in John are not referring to prevention but to present cleansing after having sinned.

Brother Ron wrote:

But you are talking about prevention while the scripture is talking about a cure. The verses in John are not referring to prevention but to present cleansing after having sinned.

This man seeks the cure also...

Psalm 119

58 \tI entreated Your favor with my whole heart;
\tBe merciful to me according to Your word.
59 \tI thought about my ways,
\tAnd turned my feet to Your testimonies.
60 \tI made haste, and did not delay
\tTo keep Your commandments.

What must come first is God's judgements in the life of the individual. As a result of what God spoke, this man thought about his ways and then turned his feet towards His testimonies...

This is salvation...Jesus promises to deliver us from 'any" unrighteousness. Again, the focus of this thread is what is man's responsibilities when God speaks to him?

66 \tTeach me good judgment and knowledge,
\tFor I believe Your commandments.
67 \tBefore I was afflicted I went astray,
\tBut now I keep Your word...

71 \tIt is good for me that I have been afflicted,
\tThat I may learn Your statutes.
72 \tThe law of Your mouth is better to me
\tThan thousands of coins of gold and silver.
73 \tYour hands have made me and fashioned me;
\tGive me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments.

Here we learn that this man, because of the Lord's work, can now say that his experience is worth more to him than gold and silver. The relationship he has with the Lord causes him to hope for more of the substance...(grace).

Now look to what fruit is wrought by this grace...

Heb. 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

Heb. 12:10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Chastening "yields the peacable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."

The Lord is able to cleanse any unrighteousness, the question is are we willing to be trained?

In Christ
Jeff

The Lord is able to cleanse any unrighteousness, the question is are we willing to be trained?

is [it] always true, at every point of a believer's experience, to say that he 'has sin'.

is it? and, what does the Word of God say?

:-)

vico on 2007/3/20 17:10:40
is it? and, what does the Word of God say?

Sis wrote:

"Psalms 51:6
Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.

Is not this our testimony of life in and through Christ? This is now part of the normal (Christian) life for those who have been planted in His death, and raised in His resurrection (inner life), through His Spirit to adoption as sons of God."

I agree with this statement from a "positional theological" standpoint.

Yet,

"Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom."

This precept that you quoted here pretains to an on going work of sanctification in the believer. It is the power of the truth which God reveals to each individual that leads one to understand the daily unrighteous acts that we might perform. If the Holy Spirit's work were not ongoing, then what are we saved from?

What is the pupose of disciplining His children?

Deu 8:5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, [so] the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.

Job 5:17 Behold, happy [is] the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

Psa 94:12 Blessed [is] the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;

Psa 118:18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.
Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Hbr 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Hbr 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Hbr 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.

Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Why does this precept occur in the whole counsel of God?

In Christ
Jeff

Colossians 3:1-17 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by Him.

Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Obedience is what God really wants, The Love of a Father wants the obedience of a son, The Son's obedience give the Father the Love He really wants.

A good Father never holds the disobedience of son against him. Christ did not disobey, that is why God had to put Him and His Seed in the believer, so The Father could see us in obedience and providing full and complete sacrifice, taking away our sin so God could deal with us the same way He dealt with Jesus, His only begotten Son, and we as Him in this life to God.

Never before available to those outside of Christ in them. Only to the Born Again, not just of our inward parts but of all that we are.

"Put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created Him:" "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by Him."

In Christ, never before said until the "mystery" was revealed to Paul, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Christ did not disobey, that is why God had to put Him and His Seed in the believer, so The Father could see us in obedience and providing full and complete sacrifice, taking away our sin so God could deal with us the same way He dealt with Jesus, His only begotten Son, and we as Him in this life to God.

Scripture points to the fact that our Father does indeed discipline those who are His sons through Christ.

For what reason does the Father discipline?

In Christ
Jeff

Listen to the words of Scripture...

Revelation 3:
17 Because you say, “I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

A believer who says in his heart that he is rich and needs nothing is actually wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked. A believer that says he has no sin is such a man.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ron wrote:

You are changing the grounds of the discussion. As far as I know no one is questioning the continuing discipleship of the believer. What the thread began with, by implication, is whether or not it is always true, at every point of a believer's experience, to say that he 'has sin'.

I believe Scripture teaches that at every point in this life a believer suffers from unrighteousness. If this were not true, what purpose does the process of on going sanctification serve?

In Christ
Jeff

"For what reason does the Father discipline?"

To make son's that He is proud of.

Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Obedience is the greatest love a son can give his Father. That is our blessing in Christ Jesus the only obedient One that the Father uses to make us obedient love.

In Christ: Phillip

Listen to the words of Scripture

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made Him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

In Christ: Phillip

""I believe Scripture teaches that at every point in this life a believer suffers from unrighteousness. If this were not true, what purpose does the process of on going sanctification serve?""

Is Christ in you unrighteous?

Phillip

Brother Phillip asked:

Is Christ in you unrighteous?

No.

But my flesh is unrighteous...according to what Scripture teaches...

Romans 7:

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Likewise in your other response...why are you not willing to admit what Scripture teaches regarding the reason our Father disciplines us?

What does Scripture say?

Brother Phillip, you can do all the "positive thinking you want" but that will not change the condition of your flesh. You are stuck with it until the ressurrection...

In Christ
Jeff

Listen to the words of Scripture...

Revelation 3:
17 Because you say, “I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

A believer who says in his heart that he is rich and needs nothing is actually wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked. A believer that says he has no sin is such a man.

In Christ
Jeff

rookie on 2007/3/23 8:13:28
I believe Scripture teaches that at every point in this life a believer suffers from unrighteousness. If this were not true, what purpose does the process of on going sanctification serve?

If you mean 'glorification' ie increasing comformity to the full image of Christ I would agree but I think you concept of sanctification will not pass biblical examination.

Brother Phillip, you can do all the "positive thinking you want" but that will not change the condition of your flesh. You are stuck with it until the ressurrection...

If you mean 'glorification' ie increasing comformity to the full image of Christ I would agree but I think you concept of sanctification will not pass biblical examination.

I think this is the one area of stumbling I have historically stumbled over. Keeping the terms 'sanctification' and 'glorification' seperated.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death? I have the answer to that question! What a Saviour!

Hallelujah! This is a true saying, Ron. Glory be to God for giving us Jesus Christ. Glory be to our God who is able to save and give us the victory to the uttermost! The "old man" is slain, the usurper defeated, and sin shall not have mastery over us. This is a glorious thought!

Brother Ron wrote:

I don't believe in the process of ongoing sanctification. To sanctify means to set apart something entirely for another use, how can such a thing be progressive? A man is either entirely set apart to another's use or he isn't. Sanctification cannot be achieved in installments.

Ron, at the beginning of this thread you agreed with me that 1 John was a book which spoke of relational theology. Yet, it seems that you keep wanting to go back to positional theology. Do I discern this wrongly?

In Christ
Jeff

Brothe Paul wrote:

Hallelujah! This is a true saying, Ron. Glory be to God for giving us Jesus Christ. Glory be to our God who is able to save and give us the victory to the uttermost!

What are you refering to when you speak of victory?

In Christ
Jeff

Brothers Ron, Phillip, Paul, and Robert...

God's Perfect Knowledge of Man
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether.
5 You have hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall *fall on me,"
Even the night shall be light about me;
12 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise You, for *I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You...

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.

This speaks of one who glorifies God...and yet this is his prayer...

"Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me, and know my anxieties; and see if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting..."

Does one who is born again need bother with this prayer?
In Christ
Jeff

For Brothers Ron, Phillip, Robert, and Paul...

Romans 8

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

What does it mean to put to death the deeds of our body by the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

This is not positional theology but relational.

In Christ
Jeff

Jeff,

God knowing that our best would not be good enough to be a son or daughter He wanted, before He created man He already provided a Son that would be the direct representation of Himself. The reason so, He could accept son's and daughter's into His House, He planed to put the Only Begotten Son in His creation so they could become son's and daughters of God. Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.

We cannot, even in our best please God. So when we say, "NO" we don't have Christ in us, we are creating ourselfs as our own gods. Which is a deception, by the devil himself, as with Adam and Eve. If we don't accept that Jesus Christ is our new birth, the old man crucified with Christ on the Cross and accept the birthing as our new life in Christ we are deceiving ourselves when we say we are saved.

Our righteousness is not in our flesh, it is in the Christ that is born again in us because we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. No matter how great our faith is and how great our works are, we cannot satisfy the longing of God to have son's. Only He can make us righteousness by the Christ in us who is our righteousness and our salvation and our all in all, that we should be called the son's of God.

Our flesh is not what God is concerned with, He is concerned with the Spirit of Christ He has birthed in us. The more we believe in Christ the more we will be what God intended us to be before the foundation of the world was ever created. Giving up the flesh is the hardest thing man or woman has to accomplish in our salvation, that is why it is Christ in us that is our hope of Glory. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

We have died to the flesh by the Holy Spirit sent by the Father to be with us forever. Even this flesh we now live in The Holy Spirit has quickened that we might be even in this life by faith, Positionally son's of God and relationally son's to a Father who has provided all that is necessary for us to be with Him in eternity, because of Jesus Christ His Only Begotten Son, who is our new life for eternity.

John 3:15-17 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I truly believe this is our position in Christ and God our Father and the Holy Spirit being made relationally direct descendants of God our Father by Jesus Christ who loved us and gave Himself for us.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

And the greatest test in all the Bible for this position in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior, All of Ephesians 1, making our relation with our loving Father as loving sons.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

God knowing that our best would not be good enough to be a son or daughter He wanted,

We cannot, even in our best please God.

Our righteousness is not in our flesh,

I agree with you because Scripture states that in our flesh there is nothing good.

Rom. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

So if we say that we have no sin, we truly do deceive ourselves.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

In light of this precept which Scripture defines, it is the word of God that reveals to us the sins that we commit after we have been born again. If Scripture is not convicting us then the truth is not in us. For the word of God is powerful and able to show us the intentions of our hearts. That is why God has established the practice of communion. He is the healer.

1 Corinthians 11:

30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

What does it mean to be judged by the Lord so that we may not be condemned with the world?

In Christ
Jeff

That Christ is our advocate with the Father and when God see's Jesus Christ in the believer, the verdict is not guilty, not once, not ever again.

It is truly Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

Who's Seed is in us? Does He sin? Then if we before the Father sin, Christ is a minister of sin, God forbid. In Christ we have no sin. In the Flesh we sin, but we are not in the Flesh but in the Spirit. If then the Spirit of Christ dwells in us, we stand before the Father Sinless.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And sin abounds in all that man does outside of Christ. Are we rebirthed by corruptible Seed or Incorruptable Seed? Christ the Incorruptable Seed cannot sin, so John is correct, Those that are born of God do not commit sin, by the Seed that is in us.

1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the (((Word))) of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

The Word, Logos, Jesus Christ Himself.

1 Peter 1:15-23 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the (((Word))) of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The Word, Logos

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the ((((Word)))) , and the Word was with God , and the Word was God . The same was in the beginning with God . All things were made by him ; and without him was not any thing made that was made . In him was life ; and the life was the light of men .

The Word, Logos, Jesus Christ Himself.

In Christ: Phillip

Ron, at the beginning of this thread you agreed with me that 1 John was a book which spoke of relational theology. Yet, it seems that you keep wanting to go back to positional theology. Do I discern this wrongly?

Brothers Ron, Phillip, Robert, and Paul

1 Corinthians 11:

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Psa. 119:7 \tI will praise You with uprightness of heart,
\tWhen I learn Your righteous judgments.

Psa. 119:13 \tWith my lips I have declared
\tAll the judgments of Your mouth.

Psa. 119:20 \tMy soul breaks with longing
\tFor Your judgments at all times.

Psa. 119:30 \tI have chosen the way of truth;
\tYour judgments I have laid before me.

Psa. 119:39 \tTurn away my reproach which I dread,
\tFor Your judgments are good.

Psa. 119:75 \tI know, O LORD, that Your judgments are right,
\tAnd that in faithfulness You have afflicted me.

In the above Scripture we find the precept of judgement. Paul teaches that the Lord disciples us so that we are not condemned with the world.

In other words, those who are sons will experience the judgements of the Lord. These experiences are given to us so that we do not receive the wrath of God.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Who among say you have no sin? Tell me why God disciplines those who are His sons.

In Christ
Jeff

Who among say you have no sin? Tell me why God disciplines those who are His sons.

why did He discipline His Son?

edit: after walking the dog!

This thread came to mind again and I decided to add a little more. God does discipline his sons. I don't want you think otherwise but what is the purpose of that discipline?

We need to be careful that we don't drift into mysticism where God disciplines to deal with sin. God can punish for sin but he can also forgive. We must not think that sin is treated by suffering of any kind. That is the notion that lead the mystics into self-flagelation and hairshirts. They reasoned that their suffering would have some effect on their sin. We have to make sure that however we see God's disciplines we do not think that discipline in any way deals with the sin.

Discipline deals with the person and it is good to see the word 'disciple' is part of discipline. The key thing about a disciple is that he was in a continuing relationship with a master.

Discipline deals with character and development. This is necessary even in the one man who could say 'I am without sin' it was required that he 'learned obedience' by the things that he suffered. We too must 'learn obedience'.

Brother Ron wrote:

We need to be careful that we don't drift into mysticism where God disciplines to deal with sin.

Psalm 119:

71 \tIt is good for me that I have been afflicted,
\tThat I may learn Your statutes.
72 \tThe law of Your mouth is better to me
\tThan thousands of coins of gold and silver.
73 \tYour hands have made me and fashioned me;
\tGive me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments.
74 \tThose who fear You will be glad when they see me,
\tBecause I have hoped in Your word.
75 \tI know, O LORD, that Your judgments are right,
\tAnd that in faithfulness You have afflicted me.

Did God allow this man to drift into mysticism?

In Christ
Jeff

Did God allow this man to drift into mysticism?

Job 36:

7 \tHe does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous;
\tBut they are on the throne with kings,
\tFor He has seated them forever,
\tAnd they are exalted.
8 \tAnd if they are bound in fetters,
\tHeld in the cords of affliction,
9 \tThen He tells them their work and their transgressions—
\tThat they have acted defiantly.
10 \tHe also opens their ear to instruction,
\tAnd commands that they turn from iniquity.
11 \tIf they obey and serve Him,
\tThey shall spend their days in prosperity,
\tAnd their years in pleasures.
12 \tBut if they do not obey,
\tThey shall perish by the sword,
\tAnd they shall die without knowledge.
13 \t“But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath;
\tThey do not cry for help when He binds them.
14 \tThey die in youth,
\tAnd their life ends among the perverted persons.

Here is another example given to us in Scripture about why God disciplines those that are His...

Do you see that God speaks to those so that they are not left to their own imaginations?

In Christ
Jeff

rookie on 2007/3/27 11:26:34
Do you see that God speaks to those so that they are not left to their own imaginations?

Brother Ron wrote:

Was God's disciplining of His Son corrective?

Of course not...He was born of the Spirit and not the seed of Adam...

This is not a compatible parrallel with our nature is it?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ron...

Job 36
9 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—
That they have acted defiantly.
10 He also opens their ear to instruction,
And commands that they turn from iniquity.

Now this is the condition we find ourselves in.

This Scripture was true for the OT saints. God spoke to them. It this precept also available to the NT saints?

In Christ
Jeff

Brothers Ron, Paul, Robert, and Phillip

Paul taught...

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

According to Scripture this is our inheritance according to the first man Adam. All are subjected to this futility.

So then when one is born from above...what happens then?

Gal. 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

The only person that ever walked 100% of the time with the Spirit was Jesus Christ.

So what has God predetermined for us who turn toward Him?

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Our High Priest is able. The question is, are we willing to grow in understanding and wisdom which delivers us from the corruption of this body?

In Christ
Jeff

[u]rookie on 2007/3/27 21:57:48[/u]
Of course not...He was born of the Spirit and not the seed of Adam...

This is not a compatible parrallel with our nature is it?

Is not regeneration being 'born of the Spirit'. Is regeneration a birth, ie a new beginning or is it a modification in which something is added to what is already there?

We are in Christ or in Adam, the two conditions are mutually exclusive.

Brother Ron wrote:

Is not regeneration being 'born of the Spirit'. Is regeneration a birth, ie a new beginning or is it a modification in which something is added to what is already there?

When I spoke of Christ being born of the Spirit, I was refering to the virgin birth.

Does Scripture teach that Christ was subjected to the corruption that the decendents of Adam are subjected to in original sin?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ron wrote:

So you can see that discipline is not necessarily linked with sin.

I see this precept in a different light...

Heb. 5:6 As He also says in another place:
\t“You are a priest forever
\tAccording to the order of Melchizedek”;
7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Again...

"though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered."

Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. The substance of this salvation speaks of the suffering of the flesh...

Paul writes in Romans 8:

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

First he states that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Then he states...

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Again..."IF by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body..."

Why is this required as the substance contained within salvation?

So I believe that the dicipline that God trains His elect by is to free them from the effects of the flesh...

Listen to what Scripture teaches us about those who are being conformed into His Son's image...

2Cor. 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. 6 Now if we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective for enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

Phillipians 1:
29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

Phillipians 3:
8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

Phillipians 3:

Phil. 3:15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

Phil. 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

There are many more Scriptures which speaks of suffering the death of flesh. This training takes place in those who by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh.

Why is this so important to our Father?

In Christ
Jeff

rookie on 2007/3/29 5:51:24
So I believe that the dicipline that God trains His elect by is to free them from the effects of the flesh...

What 'effects' of His flesh to you have in mind?

Jeff wrote: Quote,

"According to Scripture this is our inheritance according to the first man Adam. All are subjected to this futility.

So then when one is born from above...what happens then?

Gal. 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

The only person that ever walked 100% of the time with the Spirit was Jesus Christ.

So what has God predetermined for us who turn toward Him?

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Our High Priest is able. The question is, are we willing to grow in understanding and wisdom which delivers us from the corruption of this body?""

We are all under the Law, Jew and Gentile, unless we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Then the program changes to Grace and Christ in you the hope of Glory.

Acts 26:15-18 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Are you sanctified by the faith that is in Jesus Christ?

When Christ came and told His followers to follow Him, at that time He was offering the Kingdom to Israel and going to lead them into a way of life that fit earthbound people for Gods plan for Israel. That is Christ on the throne of David governing and reigning from The earthbound Jerusalem. The death of Christ on the Cross chaqnged the process for God's earthly people. No longer was heaven on earth in view to anyone including Israel.

God initiated a new program where Jew or Gentile would have the same chance, that is believers that that believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God would be invited direct to the Father's House. This was a radical change form the Kingdom being on this earth to it being in Heaven. This was not a surprise, not seeing on God's part the death of His own Son, it had been in God's mind even before He created the earth, Eph 1:4 that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", Col 1:27 and that Glory is us seated in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus, No more Law, but Grace. We are not longer under the Law which is earthy, but under Grace, which is Heavenly.

You see the program changed when Israel did not receive their King. Israel lost their place of being God's chosen people of earth, for a time. Acts 28:28. Jesus brought the Kingdom of Heaven to Israel perfectly, but Israel failed to obey and accept Him. Now His death would be not only Israel's salvation but the Gentiles also. The new program would be that all would have to accept Jesus Christ as their savior. This new gospel of Pauls' would now be the death of the old man and the birth of the new man in Christ Jesus. Gal 2:20, death on the Cross of the old man with Christ and new life in Christ by the birthing, being born again of Incorruptable seed, 1 Peter 1:23, the taking away of sin from the believer. These are the two main things of the new gospel of Christ from Paul. One, the taking away of sin and the most important, New birth of The Seed of Christ in the believer. Again and again, "that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory", which should be the cry of every believer, new creatures in Christ Jesus and headed for the Father's House, not the earthly kingdom on this earth in the millennial Kingdom of Christ keeping the promises of God to the promised Israel and the earth when it is changed to the promises of God also.

You cannot mix the two gospels or the confusion is so great that Law becomes Grace and Grace becomes the law unto separation and failure of the God of Christ unto Paul that fulfills the Word of God. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Colossians 1:24-28 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Fulfilling the Word of God through Paul's gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Now God will deal with us through the Son and by the Holy Spirit that is sealed us into Christ and His Body the Church for ever.

In Christ: Phillip

by rookie on 2007/3/25 8:24:50

Brothe Paul wrote:

Hallelujah! This is a true saying, Ron. Glory be to God for giving us Jesus Christ. Glory be to our God who is able to save and give us the victory to the uttermost!

What are you refering to when you speak of victory?

The same "victory" John wrote of in verse 4 of the fifth chapter of his first book:

"For whosoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/v/i/victoryw.htm

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/f/a/faithist.htm

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/v/i/victory.htm

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/t/h/i/thisistv.htm

Brother Ron wrote:

So you believe that Christ's sufferings were to 'free' him from the 'effects of the flesh'???

I believe Scripture teaches that He was without sin and was willing to die for those who have sin. He was willing to experience the torture and the death of His perfect flesh for us who were dead according to the flesh.

Brother Ron, was Christ flesh corrupt in the same way as our's are?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

Are you sanctified by the faith that is in Jesus Christ?

Scriptures reveal to us the life that Christ lived on earth. Throughout this testimony, we find that Christ did all the works that His Father showed Him through the Holy Spirit. By the Spirit Christ became the author of our eternal salvation.

Rom. 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This demonstration by Christ seeking guidance from His Father, is the faith of Christ we see in Scripture.

So our hope should indeed rest in finding "the faith" that Christ demonstrated to us in Scripture. We should begin to find our lives defined by the parables that He taught. We should begin to see the attributes that He taught in the Beatitudes growing in our lives.

So Yes, I have found "the faith of Christ," working in me.

You cannot mix the two gospels or the confusion is so great that Law becomes Grace and Grace becomes the law unto separation and failure of the God of Christ unto Paul that fulfills the Word of God.

There is only one gospel. Listen to Paul's teaching on this...

Rom. 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
\t“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
\tWho bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And also...

Romans 11:

4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Do you see the last verse, do you believe?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Paul wrote:

The same "victory" John wrote of in verse 4 of the fifth chapter of his first book:

"For whosoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

Tell me about this victory in your life?

How has Christ shown you the ways the world has polluted your flesh and how has He delivered you so that you can say you have "overcome the world?" How has He given you wisdom to recognize humanism, self esteem, pride, covetousness, jealousy, false idols that exists in this world?

Are you complete in this victory in the path that you have walked thus far?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ron...

I have not seen that you have considered the precept for why God must train those that are His sons. Have you considered these Scriptures that I posted on the reason He must train us? Have you considered what training brings about in the life of those who are chastened by the Father?

What does this training focus on?

In Christ
Jeff

One Gospel or at least two?

Galatians 1:11-24 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. And they glorified God in me.

Paul calls the Jewish religion, the old gospel of Moses, is what made him persecute the Church, and the Gospel of Christ is which changed him to preach the Faith, "The Church", which once in the Jewish Religion he destroyed. The He verifies it by calling it his Gospel. Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

What is Paul's Gospel? Colossians 1:12-27 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

To fulfill the word of God, which no one new. That is the Gospel of Christ given to Paul, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Two Gospels One of Moses to Israel and the other to Paul given by Jesus Christ. Israel, repent and be baptized. The Gospel of Christ believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and you will be saved and become a new creature in Christ Jesus, born again of the Spirit of Christ and the Washing of Water by the Word of God, which is living Water, Christ in you, never to thirst again. Taught by the Holy Spirit only, revealed by the Holy Spirit only. Which Christ confirms in John 14,15,16,17. Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.

John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

In Christ: Christinyou2

I believe Scripture teaches that He was without sin and was willing to die for those who have sin. He was willing to experience the torture and the death of His perfect flesh for us who were dead according to the flesh.

So what 'effects of the flesh (Chrit's)' do you believe God was dealing with in his discipline?

Jeff,

Do we search the scriptures to see Christ whom the Father has put us into that we might be what God intended us to be before the foundation of the earth, to be in Christ partaking of the Tree of Life?

Or: Are we searching the scripture to find proofs and alliances to bring together all the things we believe and have been taught by man?

Are we holding in our hand the Word made Flesh in this book form?

I never pick up the bible without knowing that in any sense it is a Person a living life of Jesus Christ that is Born again in us.

If we see Christ al our life, Gal 2:20, we will stop thinking about ourselves and begin to see that Jesus is the whole of life in the believer.
Be it healing, revealing the Word, which is Himself or anything that has to do with our life God intended us to be, Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

If we don't see Jesus in all we do and until He is the focal point of all we do, not just what he said or did while He was here on this earth, by which we know Him no longer, we miss the mark of Who He is that is in us and as the Person who wants to be our life before our Father.

2 Corinthians 5:14-17 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip asks:

Do we search the scriptures to see Christ whom the Father has put us into that we might be what God intended us to be before the foundation of the earth, to be in Christ partaking of the Tree of Life?

I see it just the opposite. I see that Scriptures reveal the works of Christ in those who believe. The work of Christ was predestined...the real question is do we see our lives being transformed by the Scriptures. Do we find our present life resembling the work of Christ illustrated by the many examples given to us in Scripture. We will if we look to the Holy Spirit in the Christ modeled and therefore authored as the example of faith that saves. This 'faith of Christ" is the key to which we are all called to use to enter into the Kingdom.

Or: Are we searching the scripture to find proofs and alliances to bring together all the things we believe and have been taught by man?

Only the love for the truth that Scriptures reveal to those who hear will deliver one from the vain teachings of men.
You will find that most cut up the Scriptures to suit there carnal philosophies.

Brother, does your pastor teach that Paul's epistles supercede all other Scripture?

In Christ
Jeff

Discipline deals with character and development. This is necessary even in the one man who could say 'I am without sin' it was required that he 'learned obedience' by the things that he suffered. We too must 'learn obedience'.

I have experienced this in my life. There have been times when I have been walking in victory and whist not that there were issues under the surface that God was not through dealing with. It has been my experience that God desires to change our minds about things. As the author of our salvation He is faithful to ensure that we are coming along according to His plan. What I could not do with myself- He has been able to do through various means and especially circumstances.

Learning obedience I think deals in part with being able to see the wisdom of God's requirements. As Ron stated in some of his messages- out of God's hand went a firey Law- yes, He loved the people. It's not until you are on the receiving end of some serious sin that you really really see the 'wisdom' of God's requirements and the 'love' contained in His firey law. God is not a cosmic kill-joy. Circumstances in life can 'teach' us the wisdom of obedience and actually change our motivation for obedience from fear to faith. Fear is a short term stop-gap measure. We can preach it all we want to- but it has only a limited and temporary effect. When we obey God because we have experientially seen His wisdom in all He commands we approach obedience from the position of 'believing God.' Almost like I could say it like this, "Do you believe God?" Oh, you bet I do. I have learned that it is best to obey God. Not just because I suffered for my sins, but because I have suffered for others sins.

Circumstances can literally change our minds about things. God has a way of offering us a different point of view that trumps all others. This can go far in neutralizing various temptations. Our minds must change. ANd God is well able to put us in a position to change them.

Brother Ron askes again...

So what 'effects of the flesh (Chrit's)' do you believe God was dealing with in his discipline?

Since you have not chosen to answer the question I posed to you...does Scripture teach us that the nature of Christ's flesh is different than the nature of our flesh... I will answer you with another set of Scriptures.

Paul teaches us in Galatian 5
Gal 5:17 4Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. *Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 *Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

James teaches in James 4:

4Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. *Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 *Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?

In both of these sections of Scripture we find that; God through His Holy Spirit works against the flesh in the believer.

First question, according to Scripture...

Was this division displayed in the life of Jesus?

Second question,

Why is the Spirit of God against the believer's flesh?

In Christ
Jeff

So what 'effects of the flesh (Chrit's)' do you believe God was dealing with in his discipline?

Jeff asked; Quote,

"Brother, does your pastor teach that Paul's epistles supercede all other Scripture?"

Only the parts that were revealed direct to Paul by Jesus Christ preached to both Jewish and Gentile Christians by Paul. Galatians 1:6-12 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. It sounds like this Gospel is a direct revelation of Jesus Christ and Paul is adamant, you can't learn it from man or be taught it. I ask God to reveal His Son in me 6 years ago. I knew it by word, I heard it by man, but I finally, just two weeks ago received the revelation. I can't explain it but I saw felt and knew I was in Christ before the Father. I have sought the Christ that was birthed in me at the hour I first believed and did not know anything about it for 25 years. Now in a very short 6 years I have come to this revelation by the Holy Spirit. As Paul, not that I have attained perfection but my righteousness is Christ in me the Hope of Glory.
I have only one want in this life, that is to know Him and all else will be just passing through this world which I am not of. It is remarkable what Christ can do. In This Life and from what I can see by the Holy Spirit, in the next also.

Ephesians 1:17-23 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Why did Paul go to Antioch? Because they were preaching to the Jew only, and after Barnabas went there from Jerusalem, he new they needed Paul to do the work of Christ to neither Jew or Gentile, but that all might become one in Christ Jesus, First called Christ-Ones in Antioch, "Christians".

Christ is the Word of God, all of it, but is hard to find for some people when it comes to trying to understand the times of the Gentiles and separate them from the Jewish religion. Being that they had a very different Gospel that of the New Gospel of Christ Jesus that was Given to Paul for the Body of Christ His Church. Israel is not the Body of Christ the Lambs Bride, Israel is the wayward wife of God, separated for a time to make her jealous that she might repent and be saved.

We don't sacrifice, and even if we did the temple is no longer there, just for that reason, the Only Sacrifice we can accept is the Cross of Christ. God making sure and destroying the Temple in Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Superseded by the believer being the temple and being filled with the Spirit of Christ and Sealed by the Holy Spirit forever.

Unto Him is all I want to know and all else will be directed by Him.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Just Ask. Christ Life in the flesh.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Ron asks...

"So what "effects of the flesh (Christ's) do you believe God was dealing with in his disciples?"

I believe this question was taken from a former response of Brother Ron's...

Of course. Do you see that God disciplines his children irrespective of whether they have sinned or not?

“Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;” (Heb 5:8 KJVS)

Was God's disciplining of His Son corrective?

Brother Ron, haven't you seen the difference in the verse that you quoted from the question you continue to ask?

First the Scripture you refer to...

“Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;” (Heb 5:8 KJVS)

Now lets look to this verse...The verse states that Jesus "learned" "obedience" by the things which He sufferd."

I believe this speaks to the fact that Christ obeyed everything the Father showed Him. And because He obeyed perfectly through the Spirit, the Spirit enabled Him to fulfill prophesy which speaks to the suffering foretold.

Now, the question you ask repeatedly transposes Christs obedience to us His disiciples. But now you chose the word "discipline" instead of "obedience."

Was this intentional?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

Only the parts that were revealed direct to Paul by Jesus Christ preached to both Jewish and Gentile Christians by Paul.

So do you follow a teacher that does not believe that

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

In Christ
Jeff

rookie on 2007/3/29 5:51:24
So I believe that the dicipline that God trains His elect by is to free them from the effects of the flesh...

Listen to what Scripture teaches us about those who are being conformed into His Son's image...

We have established that the Son was disciplined under his Father's hand. You have indicated here that God's discipline is to 'free them from the effects of the flesh'. So I ask again 'what effects of the flesh' were present in Christ that the Father needed to discipline him?

I wrote: "Only the parts that were revealed direct to Paul by Jesus Christ preached to both Jewish and Gentile Christians by Paul."

Jeff asked,
"So do you follow a teacher that does not believe that"

This was also in the Post you refer to:
"He, Barnabas new they needed Paul to do the work of Christ to neither Jew or Gentile, but that all might become one in Christ Jesus, First called Christ-Ones in Antioch, "Christians". Both Jew and Gentile."

I don't follow any teacher save the Holy Spirit, I fellowship with other men of like mindedness. That is like Paul, Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Paul wrote down and preached what Christ revealed to Him and the Holy Spirit is the only One that can reveal it to us, even when we read it we don't understand that it is "Paul's Gospel" the Gospel of Christ from the Cross not to the Cross.

Paul preached a new Gospel which which makes the old Gospel obsolete. A new man in Christ Jesus, Not the old Gospel in the Law of Moses to lead us to the New Gospel, Do this and you will be saved, but believe this and the "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" will give us salvation through faith, His Faith, not by faith, our faith.

I am not a Calvinist, Armenian, or Baptist or Cherokee and Dane, but a new creature in Christ Jesus. We are Christians and they will know us by His Love.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

I don't follow any teacher save the Holy Spirit, I fellowship with other men of like mindedness. That is like Paul, Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Brother, I do not doubt the Christ is in you. What I have seen by your witness, you have an unquenchible desire to proclaim Christ.

We are all called according to His purpose to complete the Church because we have been given various gifts. If preaching this elementary truth to the Congregation is what He has given you at this moment, then let the word of His command reign in your heart.

However, Paul encourages his fellow believers...

Phillipians 3

; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Pressing Toward the Goal
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same *rule, let us be of the same mind.

How do we mature in Christ? Is not all Scripture required to understand His righteousness?

Again why would Paul tell Timothy this unless the Spirit told him this?

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Do you see that all Scripture is used for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...

What does this verse say to you according to the Holy Spirit?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ron asks...

So I ask again 'what effects of the flesh' were present in Christ that the Father needed to discipline him?

The Father caused His Son to relinquish His desire to preserve His flesh.

According to Scripture what should we learn from this?

In Christ
Jeff

Brothers Ron, Robert, Phillip, and Paul

My intention here is to grow in understanding of Scripture according to the whole counsel of God. Ron, I know that you have much experience in the books of Leviticus by what you have shared in previous threads. I myself am only beginning to see the power of this book...so please correct me if I teach in error... please add when I miss the mark...

Now, according to Scripture Paul teaches that the law taught him what sin was. So would it not be beneficial to explore what the Law says of sin. That way we could then understand more fully the nature of this thread.

To continue on in this thread...If any brother says he is without sin is a...

J. Vernon Mcgee, in his commentary on the book of Leviticus states something to this effect...

"I have found that the book of Leviticus is one of the most profound books in the Bible...if one would study this book one would not be swayed into all these wayward cults and denominations..."

Have any of you come to this same conclusion?

In Christ
Jeff

The Father caused His Son to relinquish His desire to preserve His flesh.

Brother Ron asks:

Are you talking about flesh as nature or body?

I have been thinking about your question...and these verses came to mind...

Hebrews 2:

17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Hebrews 4:

15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

1Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
\tGod was manifested in the flesh,
\tJustified in the Spirit,
\tSeen by angels,
\tPreached among the Gentiles,
\tBelieved on in the world,
\tReceived up in glory.

His flesh was as ours is. Scripture points to the fact that He was tempted in all manners as we are. And because of this, He is able to sympathize with "our weaknesses."

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

Satan appeals to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life...

Jesus was tempted by Satan repeatedly while in the desert...

In Luke 4 we are given an example of Satan's appeals to Jesus...and after Jesus rubuked Satan this is what we hear from Scripture...

Luke 4:13 Now when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time.

So we know that Satan continued to appeal to the flesh of Jesus. Satan was there to the very end appealing to the weakness of the flesh...

Luke 23:

35 And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.”

Luke 23:36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming and offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself.”

How was Jesus enabled to overcome this weakness that exists in the flesh...

Hebrews 9:
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So the Father led His Son through the Spirit which enabled Jesus to overcome the weakness that is in the flesh. So to answer your question, the Father enabled the Son to overcome the weakness that exists in the flesh. So then it is the nature that is addressed.

What are your thoughts?

In Christ
Jeff

Paul teaches...

Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

So the law teaches us about sin...so then we should go to the law to learn about sin.

In the book of Leviticus we find that God established an offering for sin. One dealt with the nature of sin, the other dealt with sin that is committed.

The fist offering speaks of sins committed in ignorance.

Lev. 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

Lev. 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;

Lev. 4:22 When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;

Lev. 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

Lev. 5:15 If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:

Lev. 5:18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.

Why has God established this offering? What does it teach us about the nature we are subject to?

In Christ
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

So the Father led His Son through the Spirit which enabled Jesus to overcome the weakness that is in the flesh. So to answer your question, the Father enabled the Son to overcome the weakness that exists in the flesh. So then it is the nature that is addressed.

What are your thoughts?

The Greek word Sarx is used in so many different ways that it is important to take into consideration the whole context of it's use in a given passage. Any time the word Sarx may be used in connection with our Lord it cannot imply the pollution from Sin. Christ did not have a sin nature as do other human beings. He was 'without Sin'. The temptations he suffered were no different than Adam would have suffered if he were walking the earth in the state he was in prior to the fall. Temptation does not necessarily require a sin nature. Right? Adam and Eve were tempted and had no sin nature. What was the attraction? The enemy appealed to their natural desires.

This is how the enemy often operates. He appeals to our natural, God given, good desires and suggests a different way to fulfill them other than what God allows. It is helpful at this point to point out that thw wisdom of God's requirements cannot be improved upon. When God speaks the wisdom and counsel cannot be improved. Jesus came with the words Blessed, Blessed, Blessed, over and over in Matthew 5. Why? Because the people were unhappy. All the religion in the world could not bring happiness. All the sin in the world could not bring happiness. 4000+ years of man doing what was right in his own eyes only led to hurt and pain. The people were loaded down with vanity. So we see the wisdom of God's counsel as His word is an expression of His goodness towards us and His desire that we live blessed (happy) lives.

Sin is merely a shortcut to a desired result. The enemy lies and tells us there is another way to find fulfillment. He causes people to think that they can be fulfilled in natural things when in reality fulfillment can only come through our relationship with God. This is why people who backslide seem to go into such gross sin. When God is not there to fulfill them they plunge into radical sin trying to find fulfillment. But sin cannot satisfy the need. Solomon told us this. No measure of sin can meet the need man has for a relationship with His maker.

The enemy tried to get the Lord walking that road- but His relationship with the Faher was such that He did not regard any temptation. The enemy could find nothing in him. there was nothing to take hold of. There was no temptation that our Lord pondered or was bent towards. There was nothing in Him. But yet-0 He would not commit Himself to man because He knew what was in man. What was in man? A Sinful nature which when added to our human nature we call "the flesh". This is more than human nature. This is human nature + The Sin. Because only Christ and Adam knew the flesh less The Sin- we can get confused and think that Christ had a nature like our own. Our temptation cames from within as we had the nature of Satan. We had that 'spirit of disobedience'. Christ had no such spirit and had to be tempted from without. Satan came to Him as He did Adam and Eve. He had to try to make an entrance into them. Once Sin entered he no longer appeared to them as a Serpent. Why? Cause he was on the inside looking out. He could operate from within through the sinful nature. He could leave the person to themself and come back in 20 years and they had utterly corrupted themselves and seared their conscience. No need for him to hand around. They do a good job destroying themselves without him. But Christ was not polluted like that. satan had to return season after season to try to make an entrance. He never did and becuas eHe lived free from Sin we, in Him, can share in His liberty from Sin. He died to Sin once and because of that we are free from Sin and can live in Him.

RB quote. So then it is the nature that is addressed.

rookie quote. So then it is the nature that is addressed.

So did Christ have a 'mind of the flesh'? Rom. 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:

Quote:

"He never did and becuase He lived free from Sin, We, in Him, can share in His liberty from Sin. He died to Sin once and because of that we are free from Sin and can live in Him."

Amen:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11-14 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Amen, Amen, Amen -------------------------Amen

In Christ, In Christ, In Christ, and Christ in you the Hope of Glory:

""Any Brother who says he is without Sin is a What?"" A Mature Christ One that has met and knows His Lord that is His Life.

Phillip

Brother Robert

Hebrews 2:

17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Hebrews 4:

15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

In these two Scriptures it speaks of Christ; "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren," and that, "15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses".

What is the writer of Hebrews teaching here when he speaks of "in all things he was made like His brethren and share our weakness?

The Greek word Sarx is used in so many different ways that it is important to take into consideration the whole context of it's use in a given passage. Any time the word Sarx may be used in connection with our Lord it cannot imply the pollution from Sin. Christ did not have a sin nature as do other human beings. He was 'without Sin'. The temptations he suffered were no different than Adam would have suffered if he were walking the earth in the state he was in prior to the fall. Temptation does not necessarily require a sin nature. Right? Adam and Eve were tempted and had no sin nature. What was the attraction? The enemy appealed to their natural desires.

Maybe it is we who do not fully understand the "sin nature." Brother Ron brings us a good point when he asks about the carnal mind. Are we dead when we are first born because of our inability to know God? And therefore our flesh being weak is subject to the temptation of our oringinal father Satan?

When God speaks the wisdom and counsel cannot be improved. Jesus came with the words Blessed, Blessed, Blessed, over and over in Matthew 5. Why? Because the people were unhappy. All the religion in the world could not bring happiness. All the sin in the world could not bring happiness.

I see this in a different light...I believe Jesus was describing the joy of one who has found that following God brings mourning, meekness, and a thirst for righteousness. Just look to the examples given to us in Scripture of two saints...

Luk 2:25 ¶ And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Luk 2:36 ¶ And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
37 And she [was] a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served [God] with fastings and prayers night and day.
38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem

These two saints would understand the beatitudes...

God Bless
Jeff

Brother Ron asks;

So did Christ have a "mind of the flesh"

According to Scripture I believe he had a mind of the flesh...

Hebrews 2:

17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Would it not be required if Scripture says, "in all things He had to be made like His brethren,"

Brother Ron, the question really is, Did Jesus follow the Holy Spirit prefectly?

What do you think?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

""Any Brother who says he is without Sin is a What?"" A Mature Christ One that has met and knows His Lord that is His Life.

I believe Scripture states just the opposite...

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Does the Spirit ever warn you when you sin?

Does Scripture come to mind when you sin?

In Christ
Jeff

If we take that scripture out of context, that is what it seems to say, and could say we still have sin in us and we are sinners and cannot overcome the sin that is in us.

1 John 1:5-10 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In context it says if we are in Christ, it is not us that have not sinned, but it is Him that cleanses us from all sin. "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: So, you cannot walk in the Spirit of Christ and walk in darkness and lie, which is sin.

This sin is who we are and what were. We cannot deny it before God. So, if we say we have no sin or have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

You cannot deny the Christ that is in you, He is the one that makes us perfect, not ourselves. 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. Either Jesus is lying or we were meant to be perfect in Christ.
How in the world do we think that God would go to all the pain of watching His Son Jesus Christ die on the Cross and it not make the same difference in the Born Again as it did in Mary in bring forth a being that is a new creature in Christ and He and the Holy Spirit are going to present us to the Father Perfect.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

God's Word cannot lie, are we to present every man perfect in Christ or not?

John verifies this and makes it very clear:

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Are you born from God? Is our Faith victory over the world or not? Especially that it is the Faith of the Son of God that is in us.

Born of God: It is our heritage with Christ.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Heirs in and with Christ: Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Don't take on you again the yoke of bondage which is Satan our old man. Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We grieve the Spirit if we don't look to this perfection in Christ. For that is the Spirit that is born again in us. Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Living water of Life: His mind in us, The Spirit: That is Christ and His Spirit.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

If we take that scripture out of context, that is what it seems to say, and could say we still have sin in us and we are sinners and cannot overcome the sin that is in us.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I have not taken this Scripture out of it's context...

First...

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Next verse...

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

To me it says the Scripture by the Holy Spirit will continue to wash us, and that the Scripture is a two edged sword that show us the intent of our heart. When we are convicted by the Holy Spirit, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..."

Brother Phillip, are you saying now that you are born again you never have to confess sin to our High Priest?

What is the duty of our High Priest?

In Christ
Jeff

rookie on 2007/4/3 2:13:48According to Scripture I believe he had a mind of the flesh..

Rom. 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:

rookie on 2007/4/3 2:13:48
What do you think?

Hi Jeff,

What is the writer of Hebrews teaching here when he speaks of "in all things he was made like His brethren and share our weakness?

I understand the point you are making here. But what I suggested is that our Lord did not suffer from an inward desire to commit sin as do other human beings. He was not bent towards sin. He understands temptation in ways that are at least as great as what we suffer from the sin nature. Satan himself came to tempt the Lord. This is one on one temptation. This is the difference between personal instruction and correspondance class in my view. Satan never appeared to me to offer me the Kingdoms of this world. My temptations are petty by comparison. Also the Garden of Gethsemane was quite a test. I also have to say that any temptation to disobey the Father's will in my life is petty by comparison. So I am quite sure that our Lord is touched by the feeling of our infirmaties. I think it is taking things too far to say He had a sin nature.

If Christ had a sin nature we are no better off than when we were in the first Adam. The problem with being in Adam is that Adam sinned and Sin entered him and therefore all that are 'in' him. But if any man be in Christ he is a new creature. Christ is the second Adam born free from Sin. If the enemy was going to bring Him down it had to be through external personal one on one temptations. Christ passed the test every time and therefore Sin never entered Him. Because of this He was able to be the sin bearer as He was sinless and could give His innocent life as a ransome for our sins. He defeated Sin and took it down into death after having became Sin for us that he might die to it and be loosed from it in death (Romans 7). And because He died to Sin we that are in Him are dead to Sin. We are partakers of His history. What He has done with Sin we share in because we are in Him. All is for naught if He were born with a Sin Nature, at least in my mind. So we have to split the horns of this and understand that He was tempted in all points 'like' as are we- yet without sin; but that the 'tested' or 'tempted' part was similar (but I would argue more pressing) but not exactly the same as we. Our temptations are by nature- His was one on one with the Devil. Hope that makes sense.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Next verse...

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I think here (and I may get in some hot water) that we have to look closely at what the passages say.

If we may say -- 'we have not sin,' ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us; if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness; if we may say -- 'we have not sinned,' a liar we make Him, and His word is not in us. (I John 1:8-10 YLT)

Again we have to find the balance in all these passages. We are told in the previous verses that if we walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth. We already know that sinning is completely contrary to God's will and work in us. We never have permission to sin. I think the challenge is to read these passages and allow both to speak to us equally. If we lean one way or the other we are bound for error. If we use these verses to justify sinning we are in error. If we ignore these verses in order to focus on perfection we err also.

If we may say -- 'we have not sin,' ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us;...

Sin is disobedience to the known will of God. It can be a sin of commission or a sin of omission. Sin is sometimes defined as meaning to 'miss the mark' so as not to share in the prize. The question is, "do we hit the mark and do we hit is every single time?" To this I answer... is the truth in us? If the truth is in us we have a canon with which to measure our actions. I have heard it said that the more one spends time in the word the more the realize how miserably short the often fall of God's word. I don't necessarily agree, but it illustrates my point.

If we say we have 'not' sin. Personally, I would never say that lest I be found a liar. I know I sin. I sin when I wake up in the morning at times and speak a bit too sharp to my spouse or children. I sin when I grumble under my breath as I'm cut off in traffic. I sin when I conversate into areas the Holy Spirit is checking me on. I sin if I look with lust and I sin if I allow the Sun to go down on my wrath. I sin when I get puffed up in pride as if I am somewhat. I sin if I neglect my family for the sake of revival. I sin if I get my priorities out of whack- even if I think I am doing a good thing. I could go on and on.

I think that walking in humility is the key when I 'think' I am walking in perfection. When I walk before God with no conscious sin and no dealings of the Spirit (at least none we are willing to listen to) we must not at that point... [i]ourselves we lead astray[/i] as the YLT puts it. It is easy to get the idea that we have somehow arrived and God is far from finished with us. I have seen men be sharp and impatient with their wives 30 minutes before the repentance meeting was to begin. I have to wonder, is this what John means when we say we 'deceive ourselves'?

So what is it? We are to walk before God sinlessly and in full obedience to Him knowing we will never have permission to commit a single sin. I think the passage is clear that we must also recognize that we have sinned (in the past) in such a way that does NOT look forward to sinning but that recognizes the failure of the past- even if the past was 5 minutes ago. The passage does not allow for future sin- it deals with the past and present. John also says 'we' which seems to be all inclusive. I have sinned in the past but am not sinning at this moment and have no plans to sin in the future. That's about as close to perfection as I can get. If I start to measure my successes I err and fall into pride and sin again. If I seek God to help me everyday and show me the path of rigfhteousness He will show me. He is a faithful Father. He will make sure we are made partakers of His holiness. Sometimes He has to come in and tear down some 'perfection' that we built in our own power and wisdom. But in it's place He will speak His counsel and author His own salvation in our lives. We have to put the pen down and let Him take it up.

Jeff asked;

"What is the duty of our High Priest?"

Israel's high priest was in an earthly temple and came and went daily and yearly with sacrifice of animal blood.

Our High Priest is in His Temple, that is you and me. The Holy Spirit seals us into this High Priest and we are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

His duty is to take an unsavable being and make him saved, take a lost sinner and put the Nature of God in him, by His own Spirit.

If we confess our sin, who is faithful and just to forgive us? It is not the confession but the Nature of God Himself that is faithful to forgive.

It all depends on Jesus Christ our High Priest before the Father in Heaven with us in Him. Did Jesus confess any sin? No, He was sinless, but He still learned discipline by the things He suffered, at the hands of those that were His enemies, who were His brethren and in that suffering still offering Himself as King and ruler for them, that was discipline complete in doing perfectly what the Father sent Him to do.

Jesus Christ was all man and all God. That is what we are in spirit, soul/mind and will be in body, when this seed is planted and brings forth much fruit unto the Father.

We are renewing the old mind to the Mind of Christ and Our Spirit is now His Spirit not satans. Our body has been quickened and when it dies it will bring forth fruit unto the Father like Christ. Before it was quickened, it was already dead to God and alive to Satan. I confess sin when it is revealed to me because I hate sin and do not want it to mar my relationship with my Lord and Savior and Honor the Father who has birthed Him in me that I might become a son of God also, and certainly don't want to harm the relationship God the Father has put in me, of the Holy Spirit, Who is our great Teacher of The Christ that is now our nature. Not having a sin nature that cannot Love God without sinning. That is not love but a rescue operation for my own life. I can only love God by the Love of Christ that is in me. God can only accept that Love of Christ that is in me. We now can say; Father I Love you by the Christ that is in me, You who art in Heaven, Hollowed would be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will by done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

His Will; We love Him as Christ Love's Him, because He first loved us and Christ gave His Life for us. Bought and paid for by the Pearl of Greatest Price, I am His. Praise God.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Ron asks:

What do I think? I think that if you think that Christ's 'mind' was at war with God (enmity against God) and he could not be 'subject to the law of God' you are seriously astray in your Christology.

Let us look a little more closely to what Paul is teaching...for we must look to the entire context in which this verse you posted sets.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

First, let us contemplate what this verse states. God sent "His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh..." And then the Son condemned sin in the flesh."

Is our Christology seated in Scripture if we choose not to consider what Paul teaches here. We know that Scripture states that Jesus became man couched in all ways "in the weakness of the flesh." We know that Scripture states that Christ became man couched in the "likeness of sinful flesh." And then finally, remembering our former discussion earlier in the post, Paul teaches that Jesus (through learning obedience) "condemned sin in the flesh."

Now one might try to say, well Jesus condemned the sin that exists in our flesh, you and me...but according the this Scripture I believe it is very difficult to dismiss what Paul is actually teaching here. Jesus condemned the "weakness" the "sinful flesh" that the Father who sent His Son as the true propitiation for our sins...

Now to procede towards your question...

In the next verses we find that Paul gives an either or type statement.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

I see this Scripture in the light of setting up for each one of us the decision we must make each day...for today is the day of salvation. If we choose to follow the Holy Spirit, which is given to us freely, we too are given the ability to "learn obedience" that condemns sin in each of us. If we choose not to "learn obedience" by the leading of the Holy Spirit, if we reject the "chasenting of our Father" we then grow in enmity towards Him.

Listen to what Paul teaches next...

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Couched within this section of Scripture we find this precept..."for it (carnal mind) is not subject to the law of God."

Is this then the source of the "weakness of the flesh" that Scripture speaks to?

We know that Scripture states, that Christ "learned obedience" What does this mean? What does is mean that Christ had to learn?

How does this fit into our doctrine of Christology? Do we truly understand the process by which we suffer from the original sin?

If we continue to follow our carnal mind, we will grow in enmity towards God because Satan is waiting at the doorstep from the very beginning when sin entered the world...

What do you think?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip write;

If we confess our sin, who is faithful and just to forgive us? It is not the confession but the Nature of God Himself that is faithful to forgive.

Hebrews 7:

24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

The ministry of our High Priest functions to make intercession for us.

Why?

In Christ
jeff

Brother Robert,

I don't have time at the moment to respond...Sisters Linn and Diane are waiting for me to finish so we can eat breakfast...

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Robert wrote:

Satan never appeared to me to offer me the Kingdoms of this world.

Maybe not in like fashion, but he does work to entice each one of us to submit to him through the same type of hope...

Take for instance a person who runs a business. Now there are those who are blessed by God and walk in His path. Yet the vast majority do not find this path. Competition leads one to adapt to the principles of the world. Few can walk in the midst of this worldly system and not compromise the truth. Many will logically follow the priciples that define success as the world sees it. When one submits to this path one is giving into the temptation that promises us the things of Satan's kingdom.

I believe this same example can be illustrated by one who chooses to become a heirling in a fallen away church. The temptation of riches is great. To compromise the word of God in order to satisfy the ears of the fallen for ten shekels and a shirt lands one in the temptation to rule in Satan's kingdom. Remember the picture of the Pharisee which Jesus condemned.

Matt. 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. 15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. Matt. 23:16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’

If Christ had a sin nature we are no better off than when we were in the first Adam. The problem with being in Adam is that Adam sinned and Sin entered him and therefore all that are 'in' him.

I would suggest that you read a concurrent thread "Are We Born Into Sin" and read the post by "totallyHis." This might clear up some of the fuzziness of the topic of what exactly "sin nature" is....

Scripture says...

Rom. 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

I have found liberty when I choose to believe what Scripture says...it always surprises me how foolish my vain imagination when He show me the wonders of His truth.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Robert writes...

Again we have to find the balance in all these passages. We are told in the previous verses that if we walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth. We already know that sinning is completely contrary to God's will and work in us. We never have permission to sin. I think the challenge is to read these passages and allow both to speak to us equally. If we lean one way or the other we are bound for error. If we use these verses to justify sinning we are in error. If we ignore these verses in order to focus on perfection we err also.

I see the balance in a different light. There is no balance in Scripture. All Scripture supports itself. All Scripture is not open to private interpretations.

I have begun to understand that how one see doctrine according to time may be the issue that creates the idea that one must balance one Scripture against another. You see, if one is taught to look at the promise that speaks to the inheritance aquired and completed, one might not see the aspects of the process that one must experience and learn. This speaks to the adoption into the promise.

Here is an illustration. Joseph was given a dream as a young man that he would reign over his family and be a prince. This is looking to the completion of the promise. Then we are given a long history of where God took him and molded him into the promise. There are two views here, one of the vision and then one of the path that leads to the completion of that vision.

Likewise we find this same precept written in the Scriptures you have pointed to, that needed to be balanced. If one views each one of these verses in the framework of time and seperates those verses which speak to vision and those which speak to path, one will begin to see that no balance is needed.

To live moment by moment in Scripture leads one along the path that leads to Life.

This thought is still be birthed in me, I hope that you can bring clarity to what I have tried to put into words for the first time.

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

rookie on 2007/4/4 12:23:20
Is our Christology seated in Scripture if we choose not to consider what Paul teaches here. We know that Scripture states that Jesus became man couched in all ways "in the weakness of the flesh." We know that Scripture states that Christ became man couched in the "likeness of sinful flesh."

I have no idea what 'couched in all ways in the weakness of the flesh' is supposed to mean. Paul is very circumspect in the way that he addresses this issue. He says quite plainly that Christ came 'in the likeness' of sinful flesh. Christ came in the 'weakness of the flesh' but he did not come in the 'sinfulness of the flesh'.

He did not have a 'mind according to the flesh' ie that was at war with God and which could not be submitted to the law of God. He became fully man, but not sinful man. His body was human fully human, but he did come in in 'sinful flesh' but 'in the likeness of sinful flesh'.

I know what Christ achieved on the cross and that is not at issue. What is at issue is whether or not Christ had a 'mind according to the flesh' that was not and could not be subject to the law of God'.

Did he or didn't he have a 'mind according to the flesh'?

Brother Ron wrote:

I know what Christ achieved on the cross and that is not at issue. What is at issue is whether or not Christ had a 'mind according to the flesh' that was not and could not be subject to the law of God'.

Ron, I have already expressed this in the post...you must have missed it...so I will post it again for you...

"Now to procede towards your question...

In the next verses we find that Paul gives an either or type statement.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

I see this Scripture in the light of setting up for each one of us the decision we must make each day...for today is the day of salvation. If we choose to follow the Holy Spirit, which is given to us freely, we too are given the ability to "learn obedience" that condemns sin in each of us. If we choose not to "learn obedience" by the leading of the Holy Spirit, if we reject the "chasenting of our Father" we then grow in enmity towards Him.

Listen to what Paul teaches next...

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Couched within this section of Scripture we find this precept..."for it (carnal mind) is not subject to the law of God."

Is this then the source of the "weakness of the flesh" that Scripture speaks to?

We know that Scripture states, that Christ "learned obedience" What does this mean? What does is mean that Christ had to learn?

How does this fit into our doctrine of Christology? Do we truly understand the process by which we suffer from the original sin?

If we continue to follow our carnal mind, we will grow in enmity towards God because Satan is waiting at the doorstep from the very beginning when sin entered the world...

What do you think about what I stated above?

In Christ
Jeff

The Jehova Witnesses always hammered me with this verse...when asking about if Christ was both man and God on earth... why did Christ not know this...

Mark 13

32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Thanks to our discussion, I have come to understand that Christ, in all things was made like His brethren. He too had a mind that was weak in the flesh...

You see, Christ came to show us the way...He came in the weakness that exists in the flesh...yet by the Spirit He overcame the flesh. So He learned obedience by following the Holy Spirit perfectly...

Now again this verse...

Mark 13

32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

You see it makes perfect sense now. Christ did not know the day or the hour that judgement comes. Christ only knew what the Father showed Him while He was like one of us.

Do you see how Scripture lines up in a way that we do not have to balance or enter into private interpretation?

In Christ
Jeff

How does this fit into our doctrine of Christology? Do we truly understand the process by which we suffer from the original sin?

There is no doubt that his body grew weary and that he was vulnerable as all humans are. The issue is whether or not he had, as you say he did, a 'carnal mind'. ie a mind according to the flesh. If he did, we have no Saviour.

Brother Ron wrote:

No, I didn't miss it. It's just that it does not address the issue. Do you believe that Christ 'suffer(ed) from the original sin?'

What makes you believe that you understand "original sin" and therefore my thoughts deserve no consideration?

Have you read in a parallel thread that I suggested to Robert "Are we born into sin" with the particular post written by "totallyHis?"

The purpose of this whole discussion is to edify the church. We all learn from each other, that is unless one claims to know all.

Grace and peace to you, may we all be circumsized by the power of the Holy Spirit through the Holy Scriptures.

In Christ
Jeff

What makes you believe that you understand "original sin" and therefore my thoughts deserve no consideration?

Have you read in a parallel thread that I suggested to Robert "Are we born into sin" with the particular post written by "totallyHis?"

The purpose of this whole discussion is to edify the church. We all learn from each other, that is unless one claims to know all.

and finally... do you think that Christ had a mind according to the flesh which did not and could not be subject to the will of God?

Thanks to our discussion, I have come to understand that Christ, in all things was made like His brethren. He too had a mind that was weak in the flesh...

Whoa, Jeff, brother that is quite outlandish don't you think? If you are deriving this from Hebrews;

[i]Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.[/i]

[i]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.[/i]

"Yet without sin"

You see, Christ came to show us the way...He came in the weakness that exists in the flesh...yet by the Spirit He overcame the flesh. So He learned obedience by following the Holy Spirit perfectly...

He learned obedience by suffering I thought it was? Suffering in the flesh. Suffering in those misunderstanding Him (Jerusalem! Jerusalem!) and not coming to defend Himself in the way we would often do so. "Which of you accuses Me of sin?" He knew all men and what is in a man.

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

That doesn't equate to weakness in the flesh but to submission ... it is very difficult to get my arms around what you could possibly be attempting here. Noticed you had made mention earlier;

We know that Scripture states, that Christ "learned obedience" What does this mean? What does is mean that Christ had to learn?

[b]Heb 5:8 -
Though he were a Son[/b] - Though the Son of God. Though he sustained this exalted rank, and was conscious of it, yet he was willing to learn experimentally what is meant by obedience in the midst of sufferings.

[b]Yet learned he obedience[/b] - That is, he learned experimentally and practically. It cannot be supposed that he did not “know” what obedience was; or that he was “indisposed” to obey God before he suffered; or that he had, as we have, perversities of nature leading to rebellion which required to be subdued by suffering, but that he was willing to “test” the power of obedience in sufferings; to become personally and practically acquainted with the nature of such obedience in the midst of protracted woes; compare note on Phi_2:8. The “object” here is, to show how well suited the Lord Jesus was to be a Saviour for mankind; and the argument is, that he has set us an example, and has shown that the most perfect obedience may be manifested in the deepest sorrows of the body and the soul. Hence, learn that one of the objects of affliction is to lead us “to obey God.” In prosperity we forget it. We become self-confident and rebellious. “Then” God lays his hand upon us; breaks up our plans; crushes our hopes; takes away our health, and teaches us that we “must” be submissive to his will. Some of the most valuable lessons of obedience are learned in the furnace of affliction; and many of the most submissive children of the Almighty have been made so as the result of protracted woes.

Albert Barnes

Isn't the whole point that though He knew all these things He went throught it as an example to us? Brings to mind His baptism for instance.

On a side note, what is it about our brother Ron that brings out such insinuations and accusations... It is quite uncanny to me. Is it because he forces the questions to be examined and that unsettles us?

Brother Mike wrote:

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

"Yet without sin"

What enabled Him to be without sin?

He learned obedience by suffering I thought it was? Suffering in the flesh. Suffering in those misunderstanding Him (Jerusalem! Jerusalem!) and not coming to defend Himself in the way we would often do so. "Which of you accuses Me of sin?" He knew all men and what is in a man.

Who showed Him the things that He was to do?

Matthew 3

1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Heb 5:8 -
Though he were a Son - Though the Son of God. Though he sustained this exalted rank, and was conscious of it, yet he was willing to learn experimentally what is meant by obedience in the midst of sufferings.

This statement is not supported in Scripture.
The word "experimentally" means that God did not speak to Him. Jesus never did anything experimentally...The Holy Spirit was given to lead Him in the way that He should go. Christ submitted to that leading because He was in all ways made like His brethren. So we too have the same choice. We can choose to follow the Holy Spirit or rebell and continue to follow our carnal mind.

Yet learned he obedience - That is, he learned experimentally and practically. It cannot be supposed that he did not “know” what obedience was;

All these words are spoken from a vain imagination...

Listen to what Scripture says...

John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.”

These things that I post come day by day as I learn along side you. I have found that Scripture continues to liberate me from the vain imaginations of men. If you find this offensive in the way I share I am sorry. But Scripture will always offend the flesh...it continues to cut me and shrink the old man in me...

In Christ
Jeff

This post is pretaining to a previous post of Brother Ron.

Quote:
In terms of sin, we all are corrupt until the day we are made perfect by Him at ressurection.

What does Scripture say?

Well it certainly doesn't say that. What a pathetic Saviour this would be. This is my Saviour...
Rom. 14:4 (KJVS) Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

2Cor. 9:8 (KJVS) And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Eph. 3:20 (KJVS) Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Phil. 3:21 (KJVS) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

2Tim. 1:12 (KJVS) For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Heb. 2:18 (KJVS) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb. 7:25 (KJVS) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jude 24 (KJVS) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
If we are condemned to the corruption of sin until the resurrection we have serious case of misrepresentation in these verses. Incidentally each one of these verses uses a cognate of 'dunamis' which is translated 'able'. It all links with the great promise of the New Covenant...
“But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”” (Acts 1:8 NKJV)

This verse is taken from Paul's letter to the Phillipians.

Phil 3:17

"But our conversation is in heaven, from whence we look for a saviour even the Lord Jesus Christ, which shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODIES, that they may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able to subdue all things unto himself."

Paul refers to his body in this life as being vile. Does anyone think otherwise?

In Christ
Jeff

I am not trying to change the direction of this thread, but just to keep both tracks alive. Listen to this Scripture...

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, “God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, “God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

According to our doctrine who do we most resemble in this life?

In Christ
Jeff

rookie on 2007/4/9 6:12:38
Phil 3:17

"But our conversation is in heaven, from whence we look for a saviour even the Lord Jesus Christ, which shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODIES, that they may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able to subdue all things unto himself."

Paul refers to his body in this life as being vile. Does anyone think otherwise?

No, he does not refer to his body as vile. You have been drawn into the false dichotomy of body and spirit. All modern version correct the KJV at this point eg “who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.”
(Phil 3:21 NKJV)In fact they are not so much correcting the KJV as pointing out a word that has changed its meaning. In older writings the word vile means 'of little worth or value'. A good English dictionary will make this point very clear. The English word derives from Middle English through Old French from Latin vilis ‘cheap, base.’ What Paul is doing here is not rubbishing the body, but comparing it to the one we will have in resurrection.

It is really important to get these kind of ideas out of our head otherwise they will trip us up in our hermeneutics again and again. The Bible does NOT teach that the body is 'vile' in our modern sense of that word.

Our body is a glorious gift and a powerful weapon for good or bad.

Brother Jesse wrote:

That is exactly right. Neither the body nor the blood is a sin in itself. But the body can be used for sin! It can be an instrument of righteousness or an instrument of sin, depending on what we yield it to.

I agree with you to the extent that we are clearly given a choice of who we follow the Spirit or the self.

Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul goes on to state though...

Romans 8

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

My point is that we always have this "old man" that we can go back to if we choose not to follow the Spirit. It is this old man that causes many to live in a weakened state, a sickly state. Is this not true?

In Christ
Jeff

Hello,

21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If the old man is dead, how can it come back alive? Those verses don't show a process, but something that happens in a moment of time.

rookie on 2007/4/9 11:44:58
My point is that we always have this "old man" that we can go back to if we choose not to follow the Spirit. It is this old man that causes many to live in a weakened state, a sickly state. Is this not true?

That said, the tense used of the crucifixion of the old man in Rom 6:6 is Aorist. The KJV gives the impression that it is a present process eg “Knowing this, that our old man [u][b]is[/b] crucified with[/u] him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
(Rom 6:6 KJVS)... but all revisions make it plain that the tense used is a past tense rather than a present continuous, hence...“knowing this, that our old man [u][b]was[/b] crucified with[/u] Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.”
(Rom 6:6 NKJV)The death of 'our old man' is not perceived as a process in the New Testament but as a fixed point in time.

Jeff wrote:

Quote; "My point is that we always have this "old man" that we can go back to if we choose not to follow the Spirit. It is this old man that causes many to live in a weakened state, a sickly state. Is this not true"

Not if the old man is dead, or old husband dead (Satan) and we be married to another (Christ), we are dead to sin, being deceived by Satan which gave birth to sin by believing him, now believing that Christ is the Son of God and truth and love coming through our new birth.

"Any man who know to do right and does not do it, to him it is sin."

The Law made sin greatly viable that sin was exceedingly sinful that was in us that kills all mankind because of Adam's sin. Then Satan was put to death on the Cross by the Death of Christ for those that are born again and are in Christ.

Romans 7:3-11 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Who is the deceiver? Believing the deceiver instead of God and acting on that belief, it slew me, becoming sin in the world.

By Christ we are no longer of this world, as Paul states; Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

We are dead to sin and to the effect of the death life of Satan which was our life before our new birth and becoming new creature in Christ.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

This statement is not supported in Scripture.
The word "experimentally" means that God did not speak to Him. Jesus never did anything experimentally...

[b]Experimentally
EXPERIMENT'ALLY, adv.[/b] By experiment; by trial; by operation and observation of results.

1. By experience; by suffering or enjoyment. We are all experimentally acquainted with pain and pleasure.

That is the "older" Noah Webster defenition that I am quite sure is the intention of Albert Barnes intention of the word. [i]By experience. By suffering[/i]. That He went throught it not that He was ignorant of it.

All these words are spoken from a vain imagination...

You would pit yourself against a learned man with such an easy dismisal? Brother ...

Still you have not answered the rather looming question you posited earlier;

He too had a mind that was weak in the flesh...

The issue is whether or not he had, as you say he did, a 'carnal mind'. ie a mind according to the flesh. If he did, we have no Saviour.

After thinking about some of the things that I wrote...

I am sorry for not being more careful in the words and thoughts that I have shared here.

First, Christ did not have a carnal mind, a mind that was not able to understand the things of God. Christ had a spiritual mind, a mind that could percieve all things that the Father taught Him through the Holy Spirit.

John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

Please forgive me

In Christ
Jeff

Please forgive me

After thinking about some of the things that I wrote...

What a heart warming note. Dear brother it is a [i]constant[/i], how I could but pray for more of this kind of thinking. I know a great many errors have been spoken throughout the years here, a short travel back would perceive so much in far different light.

As strange as it sounds, left off here last night with a sort of 'sweet grievousness' and I think it was due to how much I still do not understand ... indeed [i]we know in part[/i]. This morning the residue remained and found myself once again in the draw of John reading with the backdrop of your prior comments but actually with a difference... Rather than setting out to prove anything, you know the seeking for ammunition way we can often go about things in 'rebuttal' ... honesty requires that there likely was some of that though not in hostility... But the amazing thing that began to dawn afresh is to imagine just a bit of ... need to rephrase it;

To know what He knew and to suffer what He suffered.

How mightily difficult is it to keep back what you [i]know[/i]. To be silent and misunderstood for that silence and more so when the silence is broken. All the early years before John the Baptist. What little we know of his childhood years other than the remarkable account of Him discoursing with the teachers at the age of twelve. And not only that those who heard Him were astonished but His own ... eking out a little bit of that which He seemingly had held back; [i]And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?[/i] Luk 2:49

All these things as that backdrop coming in and hearing John so beautifully stating ...

[i] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath [u]declared[/u] him.[/i]

Right on through, by the time I got to chapter 3 and can I add just one more time how amazing it is that the book of John still arrests and is constantly fresh even some 8 years later ... that for instance this jumped out 'new';

In telling Nicodemus how,

[i]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Jesus answered and said unto him, [b]Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?[/b][/i]

That question alone seems worthy of it's own wonder and perhaps examination.

Pardon the digress, but thank you brother. Am humbled by your humbling and forthcoming. You are a dear brother, may the Lord continue to use us to draw each other out into His perfect will and understanding. Much love to you Jeff.

I was trying to find the threads pretaining to original sin so I could read over them and I found this article by Andrew Bonar which speaks to this thread...

Indwelling sin.

And I John saw these things and heard them.
And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not : for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book ; worship God.
Rev. 22: 8, 9
'I, John ' — I, who was just a fisherman on the Lake of Galilee, called to follow Christ— 'I saw all these great things.' Then we may see great things yet, as John did! It is interesting how many traits of John's character we find in this wonderful Book of Revelation. He tells us that when he saw his Master after so many years, he fell at His feet as dead, as much with delight as with fear. Then he tells us he 'wept much' when no one was found worthy to open the book; and how honestly he tells things about himself that are not to his credit. It is a great proof of grace when a man can do this—not only say he is a sinner, but tell things he did that were wrong. Our text tells us of the second time that John did this. The angel peremptorily commands him to rise: 'Why worship the servant when the Master is here?' From this incident let us learn the doctrine of indwelling sin in a believer's heart.

I. Indwelling sin as a doctrine.—A believer is entirely free from guilt. God cannot point to a spot of sin on a soul that has believed on Jesus. The believer is also free from the dominion of sin; but he is not free from the existence of sin in the heart. Never till we see Christ as He is shall we be free from the presence of sin.

'One look of Jesus as He is
Will strike all sin for ever dead.'

'If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves.' If we say the root of sin is out of us we deceive ourselves. In Rom. 7:21 Paul says, 'I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.' 'Law' means a powerful tendency, like a law. There are always remains of the old nature, and in the old nature there is always deceit. 'It doth not yet appear what we shall be.' We are only on the way to complete deliverance.

II. Indwelling sin illustrated by our text.—John was now about ninety years old. For seventy years he had walked close with God. We should have thought that indwelling sin was dead in him. But indwelling sin is often benumbed, but not dead. Paul had no sooner come down from Paradise and the third heavens than God says, 'It will be needful to send him a messenger of Satan, lest he be exalted above measure.' God did not say, 'I will strike his sin dead,' but 'I will keep it down.' There was indwelling sin still in Paul's heart. This disciple John, who had got on so far in the divine life, tells us that when he had been allowed to listen to and see, all that is recorded, and had heard the invitation to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, he fell at the angel's feet to worship him. Soon after this, John was walking through the New Jerusalem and saw its wondrous walls, its gates of pearl, the redeemed in their robes of white. Would you not have thought that his indwelling sin would be withered up now? 'When I heard these things, I fell down at the feet of the angel,' etc. He had forgotten for a time the glory of the Master, wondering at the glory of the servant. We need to watch to the very end. Satan knows there is tinder in your heart, and he tries to throw in a spark. The beloved John is not perfect yet, though he has been through New Jerusalem.

III. Why does God leave a root of sin in our heart.— He does not take away the existence of sin, but He does take away its dominion. It is like Psalm 110:2: 'Rule . . . in the midst of thine enemies.' The consequences of indwelling sin being left in us are—
(1) To keep us from leaning on our personal holiness. We cannot point to one day of perfect obedience, to one work of perfect holiness. Till the last moment we have to stand upon the blood.
(2) To make us press onward to the day of Christ. 'When He shall appear, we shall be like Him.'

IV. How we are to deal in the meantime with this indwelling sin.—Sin in a believer is as really sin as in any other. I do not know that indwelling sin waxes weaker and weaker. But here is what we are to do.
We are to think of the indwelling Spirit; for as surely as we have indwelling sin we have the indwelling Spirit. Then we have help always at hand. It is like Christ in the ship. We think often we must meet trouble or temptation alone, forgetting the indwelling Spirit. He is not asleep, He is there in the ship, but He waits till we come to Him, and, as it were, awake Him. It is thus we get the victory over indwelling sin.
Another way is to feed faith. 'They overcame by the blood of the Lamb, and by the Word of His testimony.' Nothing startles the devil like holding up the blood. He flees from it. Give every now and then a look to Christ, and if you look to Him He will look to you. Be of good cheer, believer! In spite of indwelling sin we shall not be shut out of heaven, and at length He will present us 'without fault before the throne of God!'

In Christ
Jeff

Learn to explain what you Know by using less words...

You guys should take all of this Knowledge and teach a sunday school class w/ 3-5 year olds.

Everybody on this thread have TONS of Biblical Knowledge.....But...It sounds like they are reading out of a commentary.

Theology is cool and fun BUT......we will not need the practice of theology when we are in the kingdom. .....Because .... umm..."we will see him as he is".Yup I am a repenting Intellectualist.

You guys should take all of this Knowledge and teach a sunday school class w/ 3-5 year olds.

The answer to that question is No.

Compliments wrote:

My question is can a believer really live a completely "SET APART " Life and still sin?

How many according to Scripture are "completely" set apart in this life?

In Christ
Jeff

(I think this brothers got it!) ;-)