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matt 26 ??

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sermonindex

When Jesus finished all these words, 2 he said to his disciples,
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"You know that in two days' time it will be Passover, and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified."
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3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
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and they consulted together to arrest Jesus by treachery and put him to death.
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But they said, "Not during the festival, 4 that there may not be a riot among the people."
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5 Now when Jesus was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper,
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a woman came up to him with an alabaster jar of costly perfumed oil, and poured it on his head while he was reclining at table.
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When the disciples saw this, they were indignant and said, "Why this waste?
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It could have been sold for much, and the money given to the poor."
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Since Jesus knew this, he said to them, "Why do you make trouble for the woman? She has done a good thing for me.
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The poor you will always have with you; but you will not always have me.
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6 In pouring this perfumed oil upon my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.
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Amen, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be spoken of, in memory of her."
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Then one of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, 7 went to the chief priests
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8 and said, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" They paid him thirty pieces of silver,
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and from that time on he looked for an opportunity to hand him over.
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On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, 9 the disciples approached Jesus and said, "Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?"
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10 He said, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The teacher says, "My appointed time draws near; in your house I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples."'"
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The disciples then did as Jesus had ordered, and prepared the Passover.
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When it was evening, he reclined at table with the Twelve.
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And while they were eating, he said, "Amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me." 11
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Deeply distressed at this, they began to say to him one after another, "Surely it is not I, Lord?"
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He said in reply, "He who has dipped his hand into the dish with me is the one who will betray me.
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12 The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born."
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13 Then Judas, his betrayer, said in reply, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" He answered, "You have said so."
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14 15 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body."
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Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,
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for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.


During Quaker Meeting for Worship in Nashville this last 1st day i was doing a blind Bible reading, something i often do.

I came upon Matt 26 above and can't shake the feeling that something is really wrong with this passage.

It says that the disciples were deeply distressed upon learning that one of them would betray Jesus. But then, the next thing Jesus identifies just who this is, Judas, and then they sit back and eat like nothing just happened. then they allow Judas to do his work??!! with full knowledge of what will happen???!!!

the other part of this passage that i have great difficulty with is "It would be better for that man if he had never been born."

does this mean that God is punishing Judas in hell for betraying Jesus, and also that He created Judas for this role in history?

something to chew on

Bub

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PaulWest

i was doing a blind Bible reading, something i often do.

Hi Bubba,

I'm not familiar with this. What is a "blind Bible reading"?

Thank you,

Paul

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sermonindex

Paul,

a blind Bible reading is when you sit in expectant, meditative worship with two or more persons gathered, waiting upon the Spirit.

hold your Bible with your eyes closed, maybe flip it around a few times so you don't know which is front or back cover, wait, open it when you are ready or "know" to do so, with no intention whatsoever.

95% of the time some passage on the page i open to speaks to my condition at that time. the rest of the time i figure i'm not paying correct attention. :) bub

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PreachParsly

hold your Bible with your eyes closed, maybe flip it around a few times so you don't know which is front or back cover, wait, open it when you are ready or "know" to do so, with no intention whatsoever.

Sounds similar to how people use a ouija board. The same principle anyways.

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philologos

I came upon Matt 26 above and can't shake the feeling that something is really wrong with this passage.

...or with the spirit that you are listening to.

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sermonindex

13 Then Judas, his betrayer, said in reply, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" He answered, "You have said so."

Hi Bubba

The same account in John's Gospel (John 13:21 following) gives the impression that this was a private "aside" between Jesus and Judas, in response to John's question. It's likely that only John, "leaning on Jesus' bosom", heard the full exchange, and he was probably too stunned to react - or maybe Jesus told him to say nothing.

Perhaps the others were in the middle of the argument about who would be greatest in the Kingdom!

But this is speculation.

You have to take all the accounts together to get the full picture of any Biblical incident. As with any eyewitness account, or a record of an eyewitness account, different individuals will remember and record different details, and leave out others, often writing only the bare facts.

To trust the Bible as accurate doesn't need "blind" faith, but it does need [b][i]complete trust in the Lord[/i][/b], that He caused the accurate recording of Truth, and of events we need to know about.

To think that there is something wrong with a particular passage, merely because it doesn't make sense to [i]our[/i] understanding is dangerous.

Often, as in this case, there is a simple explantation to the puzzle.

Thanks for the queston, its made me want to have a closer look at the accounts of the Last Supper.

Jeannette

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sermonindex

PreachParsly,

Your blasphemy of comparing the Bible with an Ouija board is deeply unsettling.

Bub

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sermonindex

Ron, the Spirit i am listening to is the Holy Spirit. I do these readings during Quaker Unprogrammed Meeting for Worship and as Jesus promised, where two or more are gathered in His name.. . He is with us.

The real telling part of your post is that you make no effort to address the issue. that the disciples do nothing to Judas when they learn of what he is to do (betraying Jesus.) this just makes no sense at all. but you are too happy to kill the messenger and smear the Holy Spirit!

bub

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PreachParsly

PreachParsly,

Your blasphemy of comparing the Bible with an Ouija board is deeply unsettling.

Bub

I never called the Bible to be equal to a Ouija board. But the way you are using the Bible sounds just like how people use a Ouija board. They just move it around and let "the spirit" control them.

I've heard of several instances of people using the Bible in perverse manners. Once I heard of person putting a Bible in their mail box to scare off evil spirits.

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PreachParsly

In case someone doesn't quite know where I'm coming from...


Just because someone uses a Bible doesn't mean that it is used the way God wants. I'm sure we all know this already. False prophets use the Bible to spread lies. Cults use the Bible. All sorts of people use the Bible in wrong manners.

Some use the Bible as it is a "good luck charm." I once had a friend that was what we call around here "a good ol boy." Meaning he "loved God" and did what was "right" but also loved to get drunk, ect. He would probably fight if someone used God's name in vain. The reason I am mentioning him is that he would never allow anything to sit on top of his Bible at home. No other book, nothing could be on top of it because it was a "holy book." Too bad he wouldn't read and obey it.

God's word is for study and is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." It was not given for you to use as a good luck charm. Nor was it given for you to flip around and randomly open it up for the "spirit" to talk to you. I have opened up the Bible before and just started reading where it opened, but it was never with the thought that the "spirit" was controling me and had me open it to that page.

God never intended for you to play spiritual "pin the tail on the donkey" with the Bible.

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BenWilliams

Hey PreachParsly, Do you mean to tell me that you have never just opened the Bible randomly to see what it would say?

Maybe it is not the most effective studying pattern, but you are so critical of anything that doesn't match your proffessional Bible reading prowess.

Answer me this, Why is opening the Bible randomly to read any worse than opening it systematically?

To say that one is wrong, and the other is right is ridiculous. Has the Lord never awakened you with a verse to read that was outside of your systematic study of the Bible?

Or have you ever considered that in your systematic study of the scriptures, you failed to be led by the Spirit of God concerning where you should have read?

Is not the word of God still the word of God?

You are suggesting that an evil spirit is directing someone to read the Bible. How ludicrous does it get?

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BenWilliams

Hey bubbaguy, I'd like to reply to your post.

One important fact that I think should be noted is this: Jesus was dealing with a group of very young men. Most of them were between the ages of about 17 and 22. So for example, I don't know how many 20 year olds you deal with on a regular basis, but generally they don't pay attention very well. So it would be easy for them to have been distracted by any number of things.

Another thing to note is that that culture is very vocal, sometimes loud in just regular speaking. Very much emotion flows through everything said. So there may have been much noise going on.

In my personal experience, I have been in just a room of ten people, discussing scripture, and it is so extremely easy to pass by a simple sentence such as the one Jesus made to Judas.

The other thing to note is that the disciples did not truly believe that Christ was going to die. He had to tell them that at least three times and they still didn't get it.

So in conclusion, we had a group of loud 20 year olds who were generally slow learners when Jesus told them something new. I think it is safe to say that if any of them did hear what Jesus said, they probably would be very slow to speak or to act on it. As they had not had any time to ponder it.

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sermonindex

You are suggesting that an evil spirit is directing someone to read the Bible. How ludicrous does it get?

Ben - please research bubbas past posts over a few months and you will see that its not that riduculous. (No offense bubba)

in Christ - Jim

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PreachParsly


BenWilliams wrote:
Hey PreachParsly, Do you mean to tell me that you have never just opened the Bible randomly to see what it would say?

I answered that in my last post. :-?

Maybe it is not the most effective studying pattern, but you are so critical of anything that doesn't match your proffessional Bible reading prowess.

Answer me this, Why is opening the Bible randomly to read any worse than opening it systematically?

To say that one is wrong, and the other is right is ridiculous. Has the Lord never awakened you with a verse to read that was outside of your systematic study of the Bible?

Or have you ever considered that in your systematic study of the scriptures, you failed to be led by the Spirit of God concerning where you should have read?

Is not the word of God still the word of God?

You are suggesting that an evil spirit is directing someone to read the Bible. How ludicrous does it get?

I'm guessing the reason you may not understand why I am posting like this towards bubba, is because you haven't been around to see what bubba believes?


EDIT: I see Jim already posted that. You can go to the forums, then advanced search (at the bottom) and type in the user name of the person you want and you can see their posts.

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sermonindex

Also Ben...

i think that the Bible is the word of God and a record of mankind's experience with God as it was recorded and handed down by fallible people. i think the essential events recorded are accurate history, but i also find that you can justify and/or find condemnation of almost anything from the various authors and books contained in it if you want to. (within limits, of course)

from the perspective of the old testament, mankind was the pinnacle of God's creative process. i look out into the galaxy and know that this is not so. there's lots of life out there that has been around for much longer than us. i look at the numerous, highly accurate and convincing stories of people claiming to have lived previous lives and know that we are all going through sequential lives and living experiences. (hopefully maturing along the way)

and i look at the bible and how it explains the beginnings of mankind, and knowing how cultures developed and maintained themselves employing stories that had multiple layers of meaning and used representational figures, i find that it is quite understandable and predictable that we have a book such as the bible. it came together and was perfected by people who cared deeply about their roles in mankind's future and the sacred knowledge they were to convey.

it think it is a mistake to read and intepret the bible literally. i also think that, as the australeopithicines (humankinds hominoid rootstock) were vegetarians, and Genesis commands original mankind to be vegetarian, and meat production seems to be involved in a lot of the ills facing the planet today, that Christians should examine the issue of their food sources and diet and its effects upon others. because the decision to consume large quantities of animal products is causing significant harm to God's creation and mankind. and, unwittingly or not, Christians are sinning against the creation and other human beings when they participate in this destructive practice.

bub

From thread...

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=14870&forum=35&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1

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BenWilliams

Sorry I jumped on you preach, I do apologize. I see exactly where you are coming from, my mistake.

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PreachParsly

Here are a list of thread that might help to understand...

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=4603&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go] cage on the mind[/url] This is talking about how the Bible "cages our mind."

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=8244&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go] Reincarnation???[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=4590&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]By what authority?[/url]

EDIT: I understand your response to me, I would have a similar one if I didn't know the history behind it.

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philologos

bubbaguy on 2007/3/21 3:35:45
Your blasphemy of comparing the Bible with an Ouija board is deeply unsettling.

It is not the Bible which is like a Ouja board it is your superstitious 'pin sticking' which is the equivalent of the false faith of those who use Ouja boards.

I do not 'smear the Spirit' but I totally reject your claims to be guided by him in ways which contradict the plain scripture.

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HomeFree89


philologos wrote:

I do not 'smear the Spirit' but I totally reject your claims to be guided by him in ways which contradict the plain scripture.

Good point! God's not going to contradict what He said in His Word. His Spirit will never lead us to do or believe things that are against Scripture.

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sermonindex

wow. I seek for the Holy Spirit to guide my reading of the Bible and do what is commanded in waiting upon the Spirit. I actually employ the promises of Christ, and all I hear from the participants of this site is watch out!! must be something EVIL!!

Bub

BTW

I appreciate the explanations of the Disciples failure to act, it makes more sense for me now.

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sermonindex


bubbaguy wrote:
PreachParsly,

Your blasphemy of comparing the Bible with an Ouija board is deeply unsettling.

Bub


To PreachP and Bubba

Boys! Boys! Stop it at once!!!
(Just remembering I was once a schoolmarm 8-) )

PP expressed his opinion a bit too strongly and Bub took offence.

Actually, I think you both have a point - up to a point.

Wrong use of the Bible can be at best superstition, at worst divination (using the Bible in a similar way to using an ouija board), as PP says. I hate "Promise boxes" too, for that reason, yet knew a few sincere (if untaught) believers who used them.

However, it isn't helpful to jump on someone for misusing the Bible until you know exactly where they are coming from.

Bub, I don't think that its [i][u]usually[/u][/i] healthy to leaf through the Bible and put your finger on a verse at random, even if you ask the Lord for guidance in doing it, but the Lord looks on the heart.

I haven't used that method deliberately, but it can be amazing how the Lord sometimes directs to a verse or passage that is the exact answer to an immediate question or need. It might not even be the obvious answer you would expect from your knowledge of Scripture, but the Spirit applies it to your heart in such a way as to be the needed Word in season.

Bub, do you only attend Quaker meetings, or do you also get fellowship elsewhere? If not, I think it would be good to go to other kinds of church as well, to get more balance, and a wider outlook on different ways of worship and Bible teaching.

Blessings

Jeannette

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sermonindex


bubbaguy wrote:
Ron, the Spirit i am listening to is the Holy Spirit. I do these readings during Quaker Unprogrammed Meeting for Worship and as Jesus promised, where two or more are gathered in His name.. . He is with us.

Bub, don't [i]assume[/i] that, even in a meeting such as this, everyone is always directed by the Holy Spirit. Or that meeting in Jesus name and with sincere and earnest desire to worship God, always gives protection from deceiving spirits.


The real telling part of your post is that you make no effort to address the issue. that the disciples do nothing to Judas when they learn of what he is to do (betraying Jesus.) this just makes no sense at all. but you are too happy to kill the messenger and smear the Holy Spirit!
Actually, two of us did address the issue, mine was before you wrote this. Did you read it? It seems you didn't because you still say: [i]"the disciples do nothing to Judas when they learn of what he is to do (betraying Jesus.) this just makes no sense at all"[/i]

Actually it makes perfect sense in the circumstances. All you need is a little imagination of how things must have been with the argumentative, noisy gang of disciples (who were probably nearly all young men, as has been said).

When I've been out for a meal with a bunch of friends I can usually only have a conversation with those next to or directly opposite me, because everyone's talking at once! And they reclined at table in those days, which is why John was "leaning on Jesus' bosom", which would probably made conversation with anyone not right next to you even more difficult.

Read the account in John 13, which gives details missed in Matthew. 
[color=000099]21 When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, aone of you will betray Me.” 22 Then the disciples looked at one another, perplexed about whom He spoke.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke.
25 Then, leaning back on Jesus’ breast, he said to Him, “Lord, who is it?”
26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” 28 But no one at the table knew for what reason He said this to him.[/color]
It seems from this that John had no opportunity, or was too stunned ("[i]JUDAS[/i]!!!??? Judas of all people???...Surely there must be some mistake...") to tell Peter until afterwards. In the circumstances that's not surprising.

As I said before, why not simply trust the Lord that He caused the Bible to be written? Surely it was He who has protected its essential message, even through many centuries, copyings and translations later.

Can you have faith that the written Word is therefore reliable, even if certain things don't [i]seem[/i] to "make sense".

In Him

Jeannette

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sermonindex


bubbaguy wrote:
I appreciate the explanations of the Disciples failure to act, it makes more sense for me now.

I think I bust was composing an answer when you had already written this, so missed it. I was wondering why you seemed to make no comment on the explantions1

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sermonindex

i'm understanding more about why i was led to do that particular reading of Matt. and post my question.

bub

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sermonindex

Bub, don't assume that, even in a meeting such as this, everyone is always directed by the Holy Spirit. Or that meeting in Jesus name and with sincere and earnest desire to worship God, always gives protection from deceiving spirits.

It is vital to realise this. Believe me, I've been there. On more than one occasion I was utterly sincere, prayed earnestly for guidance, and still ended up deceived - thinking that something was of God - from the Holy Spirit -when it wasn't. Actually the deception I unwittingly gave myself to was a form of divination using the Bible! Only by the Grace of God was I released from it.

Sincerity, prayer, being with others who are also gathered in His name, in itself is no protection.

...Especially if you don't know what the Bible really says or haven't had at least some "systematic" teaching or study.

We have to have the Word and the Spirit, and we have to trust what the Bible says, and truly want to do the Lord's will, and then He will protect us, even when we do make mistakes.

Take care, Brother, that's all I ask.

In Him

Jeannette

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